(The earlier Coyote and Crow discussion occurred here:
https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/racialist-propaganda-rpgs-are-always-stupid/
I took the forum's hint to start a new post rather than raise that one from the dead)
Thanks to Tubesock fanboying C&L and keeping up with their website I found out that the creator is practically begging for white people to buy his game.
https://coyoteandcrow.net/2022/04/23/an-important-message-from-connor/#more-510
He went out of his way to make whites feel uncomfortable playing his game, but now he's demanding they buy his game, and they're racist if they don't buy his game because they were made uncomfortable by his language that could only make whites uncomfortable if they took his words seriously. (Nevermind Latinos that his setting deliberately eliminates in order to set up his racially pure wankfest, since their existence would preclude the ideology of his game.) Now he says he shouldn't have needed to write all those words instructing people how to play his RPG based on their race. Well, dude, no you shouldn't have written those words to begin with, but you needed that sweet validation of virtue-signaling.
Get Woke Go Broke, nope, not buying his shit, not playing his shit, hell I wouldn't even pirate it (and pirating shit is a honorable and ancient tradition in México).
Not because I'm white (I am), not because I'm Latino (I am), not because he erased my kind from his world (He did), but because he's a fucking racist POS, just like I wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole Varg Vikernes' myfarog for the exact same reason.
Jesus Christ! The condescending attitude on this POS!
Even when this guy is practically BEGGING people to play his game he still can't help himself from talking down to them and treat them like a piece of shit that should feel so lucky to be playing a game given to them by exalted indigenous people like a good "ally". And the guy just can't see how maybe droning on about CuLtUrAl ApPrOpRiAtIoN and constantly pontificating at people about what sort of shit they're allowed or not allowed to do based on their race might send mixed messages when it comes to whether or not white people should be playing a game where only "people of colour" are a character option.
QuoteOkay, let me get into this. First, if you're concerned that you shouldn't be playing Coyote & Crow, it's likely that you're a white person and you're worried that playing this game constitutes some form of cultural appropriation or that you would somehow misrepresent Indigenous people during your time playing the game.
I get that instinct. It likely comes from the fact that you're trying to be an ally to Indigenous folks, probably to POC in general. You're being "respectful."
Except – you're not. You're not being respectful when you refuse to play Coyote & Crow for that reason. You're not being an ally. You're being a shitty person and frankly, you're being a little racist. Feel free to gasp and fan yourself if you need to. When you've finished, please read on
If you play people from other races you're a racist! But if you don't play people from other races you're still a racist! Congrats! You're a racist. Now play my game, ya fucking racist!
Does this guy even have a game to coerce white people to play? Put the book out and let the market decide if your game is any good.
Seriously, where's the game?
Quote from: Svenhelgrim on August 04, 2022, 11:27:39 PM
Does this guy even have a game to coerce white people to play? Put the book out and let the market decide if your game is any good.
Seriously, where's the game?
I've seen it at my local gaming store/pub. Flipped through it out of idle curiosity, and put it back on the shelf.
Quote from: Buy my book!And if you still can't get past it? Just buy our game because you're an "ally" and then put it on your shelf and never play it. That works too.
Sorry, duder. That's not how I roll. You gotta make a good game that I'm interested in.
I don't do anything out of being "an ally".
Quote from: Ratman_tf on August 04, 2022, 11:31:29 PM
Quote from: Buy my book!And if you still can't get past it? Just buy our game because you're an "ally" and then put it on your shelf and never play it. That works too.
Sorry, duder. That's not how I roll. You gotta make a good game that I'm interested in.
I don't do anything out of being "an ally".
Having people buy the game no matter what out of guilt points back to how Wokeness is a cult. The author is demanding indulgences to be paid to him from whites for their original sin of being white. If you don't buy the indulgence then you're condemned to Woke hell as a racist.
An alternate history where European contact with the Americas never occurred is a fascinating premise for a game. It doesn't take much to make it work: perhaps a great plague wiped out most everyone in Europe, Africa, and Asia. Perhaps even indigenous American explorers end up reaching Europe to find the remains of an apocalypse. I don't need to see myself represented in a game in order to enjoy it.
If he had just made a solid game and not bothered with the politics, it could have been different.
The RPG market is tough by itself. Its own survival by itself isn't necacarily guarunteed even if it was not woke.
However being toxic generally never helps matters. Yes, wokeness is absolutely a cult of hate.
So, if a player has NA heritage they should "feel free to change the rules" but if they don't, they have to stuck with what's specifically written on the pages. WTF? I'm more than willing to give just about anything a chance, but the way this is written out is full of dumb.
Quote from: VisionStorm on August 04, 2022, 11:09:09 PM
Jesus Christ! The condescending attitude on this POS!
Yeah that was my first thought too.
BTW here's an interview and photo of this proud Native American
https://tribalbusinessnews.com/sections/entrepreneurism/13394-coyote-and-crow-brings-native-perspective-to-booming-board-game-sector
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on August 05, 2022, 12:23:26 AM
Yes, wokeness is absolutely a cult of hate.
It's a cult of power. The hate is a side effect of needing to dehumanize their "enemies" in order to obtain/retain that power.
c&c can cope and seethe and mald all they want, they will get nothing
Quote from: Trond on August 05, 2022, 12:43:48 AM
Quote from: VisionStorm on August 04, 2022, 11:09:09 PM
Jesus Christ! The condescending attitude on this POS!
Yeah that was my first thought too.
BTW here's an interview and photo of this proud Native American
https://tribalbusinessnews.com/sections/entrepreneurism/13394-coyote-and-crow-brings-native-perspective-to-booming-board-game-sector
I've never seen a more Native American looking Native American, and that Native American name!
Seriously tho, the dude is a fucking bigot, a racist and proud to be one too. And is counting on white guilt to make bank.
Quote from: HappyDaze on August 05, 2022, 12:37:00 AM
So, if a player has NA heritage they should "feel free to change the rules" but if they don't, they have to stuck with what's specifically written on the pages. WTF? I'm more than willing to give just about anything a chance, but the way this is written out is full of dumb.
Yeah, it stinks of hypocrisy.
These are the same people that will raceswap or genderswap established characters in comics/literature, and call you racist for asking why they are changing things. But don't you dare try to change the things they wrote.
That's an impressive level of entitlement.
It's pretty funny how directly this rant confirms everything the Pundit has ever said about these games in the last paragraph: "Just buy our game because you're an 'ally' and then put it on your shelf and never play it. That works too."
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 05, 2022, 01:11:21 AM
Quote from: Trond on August 05, 2022, 12:43:48 AM
Quote from: VisionStorm on August 04, 2022, 11:09:09 PM
Jesus Christ! The condescending attitude on this POS!
Yeah that was my first thought too.
BTW here's an interview and photo of this proud Native American
https://tribalbusinessnews.com/sections/entrepreneurism/13394-coyote-and-crow-brings-native-perspective-to-booming-board-game-sector
I've never seen a more Native American looking Native American, and that Native American name!
Seriously tho, the dude is a fucking bigot, a racist and proud to be one too. And is counting on white guilt to make bank.
Greetings!
Yep, Hermano! This guy's absolute racism and condescension is disgusting! Geesus!
How about making a good game, simply with a game world or campaign that highlights Indian culture, Native culture, whatever. How about that? This jackass can't do that, though. Creating something like that is what you or I might do. That isn't virtue signaling though, like this jackass. And it isn't creating a game book that celebrates racism, hatred, bigotry, and victimhood, all while using every third paragraph to lecture others about how racist, blind, and insensitive they are.
Libtards should wonder why they so often fail utterly at making good games. They are constantly trying to use gaming as a hammer and pulpit to blather on and on about their goddamned politics, and to somehow "educate" the rest of us. Fucking morons.
On another note, I would LOVE a good game book that went into considerable detail about South American/Mexican culture, religion, mythology, all that good stuff. I would also love a series of good pictures made of different people--men, women, young, old, wearing different styles of local clothing. The colours, the crazy feathers, simple farm clothes, priest-like clothing, warrior's outfits, all the good stuff. A game book that also featured actual regional Mexican recipes, with colour pictures of the dishes, would be good too. Yes, I love wonderful food, and I would be inclined to prepare such food for the gaming group to eat as well! Fuck the Libtards and them always wanting to talk about food. WE love food as well. Fuck them!
But imagine a good game book like that? History, religion, culture, clothing, food, adventure, animal and creatures, magic, war and conquest, society. All inspired and flavoured by Mexico and South America. I would pay $60 dollars for a book like that. That would be a good game book that combines good game plus culture and all the good stuff. Not fucking Libtard politics.
I hope the racist game developer goes broke. "Go Woke, Go Broke!" *Laughing*
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
This guy reminds me a lot of Rachel Dolezal. A white person who desperately, achingly doesn't want to be white. Whatever he claims, he strikes me as someone who doesn't actually know any Indians. People who do know them, know that they generally don't mind being referred to as "Indians" at all and will even refer to themselves as Indians (or more commonly in my experience, "Indian people." If you're only referring to one tribe it's far more polite to use the tribal designation, but "Indian" is not taken to be an insult, especially when speaking of multiple tribal identities.
I too have thought that an RPG set in an alternate fantasy version of the Americas with no Europeans would be fantastic. Anybody remember a movie called "Windwalker" (I think that was the title). It was set before European contact in North America, had a totally Indian cast and not a damn word of it was in English; it was all subtitled. And I loved it. It wasn't a fantasy movie, but it was still great. Now imagine an RPG like that but with magic, spirits, folkloric creatures like the Wamagemeswak or the "little people" who were the enemies of Hiawatha. What a great game that would be.
Too bad this flaming hunk of SJW poo-poo "Coyote and Crow" is not it.
Quote from: I on August 05, 2022, 03:34:06 AM
This guy reminds me a lot of Rachel Dolezal. A white person who desperately, achingly doesn't want to be white. Whatever he claims, he strikes me as someone who doesn't actually know any Indians. People who do know them, know that they generally don't mind being referred to as "Indians" at all and will even refer to themselves as Indians (or more commonly in my experience, "Indian people." If you're only referring to one tribe it's far more polite to use the tribal designation, but "Indian" is not taken to be an insult, especially when speaking of multiple tribal identities.
I too have thought that an RPG set in an alternate fantasy version of the Americas with no Europeans would be fantastic. Anybody remember a movie called "Windwalker" (I think that was the title). It was set before European contact in North America, had a totally Indian cast and not a damn word of it was in English; it was all subtitled. And I loved it. It wasn't a fantasy movie, but it was still great. Now imagine an RPG like that but with magic, spirits, folkloric creatures like the Wamagemeswak or the "little people" who were the enemies of Hiawatha. What a great game that would be.
Too bad this flaming hunk of SJW poo-poo "Coyote and Crow" is not it.
I'll second that. If someone would like to write such a game with authentic cultures, myths, etc sans SJW nonsense, I will buy it.
:'( Sad. Would've normally been a product I would be interested in, if for at least personal campaign ideas. I've already ran NA-focused campaigns. But this sort of belligerence is off-putting, and makes me worry that the content is more revenge fantasy and struggle sessions than playable. :'( Could've been a contender.
Quote from: VisionStorm on August 04, 2022, 11:09:09 PM
Jesus Christ! The condescending attitude on this POS!
Even when this guy is practically BEGGING people to play his game he still can't help himself from talking down to them and treat them like a piece of shit that should feel so lucky to be playing a game given to them by exalted indigenous people like a good "ally". And the guy just can't see how maybe droning on about CuLtUrAl ApPrOpRiAtIoN and constantly pontificating at people about what sort of shit they're allowed or not allowed to do based on their race might send mixed messages when it comes to whether or not white people should be playing a game where only "people of colour" are a character option.
QuoteOkay, let me get into this. First, if you're concerned that you shouldn't be playing Coyote & Crow, it's likely that you're a white person and you're worried that playing this game constitutes some form of cultural appropriation or that you would somehow misrepresent Indigenous people during your time playing the game.
I get that instinct. It likely comes from the fact that you're trying to be an ally to Indigenous folks, probably to POC in general. You're being "respectful."
Except – you're not. You're not being respectful when you refuse to play Coyote & Crow for that reason. You're not being an ally. You're being a shitty person and frankly, you're being a little racist. Feel free to gasp and fan yourself if you need to. When you've finished, please read on
If you play people from other races you're a racist! But if you don't play people from other races you're still a racist! Congrats! You're a racist. Now play my game, ya fucking racist!
"why are white gamers not playing my game?
Oh, they must be worried about being called out for cultural appropiation!"
Skinner meme:
"Am I so out of touch?"
"No, it's the white gamers fault!"
I think Coyote & Crow must be one of the most literally racist games on the market. Even obviously horrendous neo-Nazi trash like Racial Holy War doesn't change the rules based on what race the real world player is.
No wonder people aren't buying it.
That said it got a lot a lot gushing praise from the usual quarters when it was being Kickstarted so genuinly curious to see what kind of sales figures it actually managed.
Any way of finding this kind of stuff out?
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 05, 2022, 01:11:21 AM
Quote from: Trond on August 05, 2022, 12:43:48 AM
Quote from: VisionStorm on August 04, 2022, 11:09:09 PM
Jesus Christ! The condescending attitude on this POS!
Yeah that was my first thought too.
BTW here's an interview and photo of this proud Native American
https://tribalbusinessnews.com/sections/entrepreneurism/13394-coyote-and-crow-brings-native-perspective-to-booming-board-game-sector
I've never seen a more Native American looking Native American, and that Native American name!
Seriously tho, the dude is a fucking bigot, a racist and proud to be one too. And is counting on white guilt to make bank.
Why am I not surprised this game was made by an Elizabeth Warren?
Quote from: Trond on August 05, 2022, 12:43:48 AM
Quote from: VisionStorm on August 04, 2022, 11:09:09 PM
Jesus Christ! The condescending attitude on this POS!
Yeah that was my first thought too.
BTW here's an interview and photo of this proud Native American
https://tribalbusinessnews.com/sections/entrepreneurism/13394-coyote-and-crow-brings-native-perspective-to-booming-board-game-sector
Of course the guy has to look like he's related to Elizabeth Warren! He's from the same lineage! ::)
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 05, 2022, 07:24:05 AM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 05, 2022, 01:11:21 AM
Quote from: Trond on August 05, 2022, 12:43:48 AM
Quote from: VisionStorm on August 04, 2022, 11:09:09 PM
Jesus Christ! The condescending attitude on this POS!
Yeah that was my first thought too.
BTW here's an interview and photo of this proud Native American
https://tribalbusinessnews.com/sections/entrepreneurism/13394-coyote-and-crow-brings-native-perspective-to-booming-board-game-sector
I've never seen a more Native American looking Native American, and that Native American name!
Seriously tho, the dude is a fucking bigot, a racist and proud to be one too. And is counting on white guilt to make bank.
Why am I not surprised this game was made by an Elizabeth Warren?
Damn, Ninja'd! Didn't read the full thread before my last post. :P
But yeah, as others have said, this game had an interesting concept at its core, if a little implausible (if only Europeans hadn't arrived at the Americas, stone aged Native Americans would've become an advanced futuristic civilization? Okay... 8) ), but gameable in a gonzo kinda way. A game based on actual traditional native cultures, focusing on their customs, beliefs and folklore would've been interesting too. But instead this game had to be made by a self hating relative of Elizabeth Warren talking down to people.
Quote from: Plotinus on August 05, 2022, 02:20:54 AM
That's an impressive level of entitlement.
It's pretty funny how directly this rant confirms everything the Pundit has ever said about these games in the last paragraph: "Just buy our game because you're an 'ally' and then put it on your shelf and never play it. That works too."
One of the many problems with working in a movement that depends on lies and entitled nonsense is the ever present danger that the "author" starts to believe his own lies and that his shit doesn't stink. Taken very far at all, this is death to any artistic work, especially one like a game book that also requires some gimlet eyed objectiveness when evaluating mechanics.
If I didn't know better from plenty of examples, I'd be tempted to think that he was doing this all as a spoof of the SJW movement just to get money in kickstarter while making them look bad at the same time. But someone doing that on purpose would have been more subtle with the crazy. :)
Quote from: rytrasmi on August 04, 2022, 11:41:39 PM
An alternate history where European contact with the Americas never occurred is a fascinating premise for a game. It doesn't take much to make it work: perhaps a great plague wiped out most everyone in Europe, Africa, and Asia. Perhaps even indigenous American explorers end up reaching Europe to find the remains of an apocalypse. I don't need to see myself represented in a game in order to enjoy it.
If he had just made a solid game and not bothered with the politics, it could have been different.
Yes, this is why one of our GM's bought it in the first place only to find it full of woke bullshit. "A message to non-Native American players" was all it took for me to shitcan it. You're going to create a game that intrinsically antagonizes me, tell me how I must play it, find out people don't want to buy it because of the woke BS contained in it, then continue to gaslight and call me a shitty person because I'm not playing your game? Go pound sand. Cowardly mutts like this guy deserve all the disdain us "white people" can throw at him.
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on August 05, 2022, 08:12:53 AM
Quote from: Plotinus on August 05, 2022, 02:20:54 AM
That's an impressive level of entitlement.
It's pretty funny how directly this rant confirms everything the Pundit has ever said about these games in the last paragraph: "Just buy our game because you're an 'ally' and then put it on your shelf and never play it. That works too."
If I didn't know better from plenty of examples, I'd be tempted to think that he was doing this all as a spoof of the SJW movement just to get money in kickstarter while making them look bad at the same time. But someone doing that on purpose would have been more subtle with the crazy. :)
I think it topped $1million on Kickstarter. That's enough to tempt me to do a bit of SJW hustling. Though I'd have the common decency to afterwards thank everyone involved, buy my new house and quietly walk away.
Quote from: VisionStorm on August 05, 2022, 08:08:28 AM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 05, 2022, 07:24:05 AM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 05, 2022, 01:11:21 AM
Quote from: Trond on August 05, 2022, 12:43:48 AM
Quote from: VisionStorm on August 04, 2022, 11:09:09 PM
Jesus Christ! The condescending attitude on this POS!
Yeah that was my first thought too.
BTW here's an interview and photo of this proud Native American
https://tribalbusinessnews.com/sections/entrepreneurism/13394-coyote-and-crow-brings-native-perspective-to-booming-board-game-sector
I've never seen a more Native American looking Native American, and that Native American name!
Seriously tho, the dude is a fucking bigot, a racist and proud to be one too. And is counting on white guilt to make bank.
Why am I not surprised this game was made by an Elizabeth Warren?
Damn, Ninja'd! Didn't read the full thread before my last post. :P
But yeah, as others have said, this game had an interesting concept at its core, if a little implausible (if only Europeans hadn't arrived at the Americas, stone aged Native Americans would've become an advanced futuristic civilization? Okay... 8) ), but gameable in a gonzo kinda way. A game based on actual traditional native cultures, focusing on their customs, beliefs and folklore would've been interesting too. But instead this game had to be made by a self hating relative of Elizabeth Warren talking down to people.
The Aztecs were already developing into a flourishing civilization, although the dearth of domesticated animals would've probably severely delayed their ability to advance.
Quote from: wmarshal on August 04, 2022, 10:38:06 PM
He went out of his way to make whites feel uncomfortable playing his game, but now he's demanding they buy his game, and they're racist if they don't buy his game because they were made uncomfortable by his language that could only make whites uncomfortable if they took his words seriously. (Nevermind Latinos that his setting deliberately eliminates in order to set up his racially pure wankfest, since their existence would preclude the ideology of his game.) Now he says he shouldn't have needed to write all those words instructing people how to play his RPG based on their race. Well, dude, no you shouldn't have written those words to begin with, but you needed that sweet validation of virtue-signaling.
I read the if you don't buy it you aren't an ally and a racist line I probably wasn't going to buy this game anyway, and no I definitely will not and I will tell everyone I know never to buy this game. Fuck that guy.
Isn't he spending GenCon telling me he doesn't want me playing his game (https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/gencon-2022-topic/)? ;)
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 05, 2022, 09:25:23 AM
Quote from: VisionStorm on August 05, 2022, 08:08:28 AM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 05, 2022, 07:24:05 AM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 05, 2022, 01:11:21 AM
Quote from: Trond on August 05, 2022, 12:43:48 AM
Quote from: VisionStorm on August 04, 2022, 11:09:09 PM
Jesus Christ! The condescending attitude on this POS!
Yeah that was my first thought too.
BTW here's an interview and photo of this proud Native American
https://tribalbusinessnews.com/sections/entrepreneurism/13394-coyote-and-crow-brings-native-perspective-to-booming-board-game-sector
I've never seen a more Native American looking Native American, and that Native American name!
Seriously tho, the dude is a fucking bigot, a racist and proud to be one too. And is counting on white guilt to make bank.
Why am I not surprised this game was made by an Elizabeth Warren?
Damn, Ninja'd! Didn't read the full thread before my last post. :P
But yeah, as others have said, this game had an interesting concept at its core, if a little implausible (if only Europeans hadn't arrived at the Americas, stone aged Native Americans would've become an advanced futuristic civilization? Okay... 8) ), but gameable in a gonzo kinda way. A game based on actual traditional native cultures, focusing on their customs, beliefs and folklore would've been interesting too. But instead this game had to be made by a self hating relative of Elizabeth Warren talking down to people.
The Aztecs were already developing into a flourishing civilization, although the dearth of domesticated animals would've probably severely delayed their ability to advance.
They had domesticated animals allright, the turkey and the xoloscuintle, but no beasts of burden, no wheel and to be honest probably no math since they took everything from the Maya (who probably took it from the Olmecs).
Just in case you're interested on an accurate depiction of the culture.
I would almost like to see someone pirate his game, then make a game with the same concepts minus the wokeness and put it on the market and watch him weep when it does better.
Go Woke, go broke.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 05, 2022, 10:48:05 AM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 05, 2022, 09:25:23 AM
Quote from: VisionStorm on August 05, 2022, 08:08:28 AM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 05, 2022, 07:24:05 AM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 05, 2022, 01:11:21 AM
Quote from: Trond on August 05, 2022, 12:43:48 AM
Quote from: VisionStorm on August 04, 2022, 11:09:09 PM
Jesus Christ! The condescending attitude on this POS!
Yeah that was my first thought too.
BTW here's an interview and photo of this proud Native American
https://tribalbusinessnews.com/sections/entrepreneurism/13394-coyote-and-crow-brings-native-perspective-to-booming-board-game-sector
I've never seen a more Native American looking Native American, and that Native American name!
Seriously tho, the dude is a fucking bigot, a racist and proud to be one too. And is counting on white guilt to make bank.
Why am I not surprised this game was made by an Elizabeth Warren?
Damn, Ninja'd! Didn't read the full thread before my last post. :P
But yeah, as others have said, this game had an interesting concept at its core, if a little implausible (if only Europeans hadn't arrived at the Americas, stone aged Native Americans would've become an advanced futuristic civilization? Okay... 8) ), but gameable in a gonzo kinda way. A game based on actual traditional native cultures, focusing on their customs, beliefs and folklore would've been interesting too. But instead this game had to be made by a self hating relative of Elizabeth Warren talking down to people.
The Aztecs were already developing into a flourishing civilization, although the dearth of domesticated animals would've probably severely delayed their ability to advance.
They had domesticated animals allright, the turkey and the xoloscuintle, but no beasts of burden, no wheel and to be honest probably no math since they took everything from the Maya (who probably took it from the Olmecs).
Just in case you're interested on an accurate depiction of the culture.
I checked that out online. Apparently they had wheeled toys, but it's understood that they didn't use wheeled carts because the terrain didn't suit roads (https://www.mexicolore.co.uk/aztecs/ask-experts/why-did-the-aztecs-only-use-wheels-for-toys-and-not-for-transport). They did have mathematics since that's required to build cities, as well as complex astronomy (https://www.google.com/books/edition/Skywatchers_of_Ancient_Mexico/ym9VAAAAMAAJ?hl=en), but much of their knowledge was lost during the conquest so we don't have a lot of material to work with.
In any case, it's a common trope in alternate history fiction (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ModernMayincatecEmpire) to have the Aztecs develop an advanced civilization and go on to conquer Europe.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 05, 2022, 11:42:05 AM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 05, 2022, 10:48:05 AM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 05, 2022, 09:25:23 AM
Quote from: VisionStorm on August 05, 2022, 08:08:28 AM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 05, 2022, 07:24:05 AM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 05, 2022, 01:11:21 AM
Quote from: Trond on August 05, 2022, 12:43:48 AM
Quote from: VisionStorm on August 04, 2022, 11:09:09 PM
Jesus Christ! The condescending attitude on this POS!
Yeah that was my first thought too.
BTW here's an interview and photo of this proud Native American
https://tribalbusinessnews.com/sections/entrepreneurism/13394-coyote-and-crow-brings-native-perspective-to-booming-board-game-sector
I've never seen a more Native American looking Native American, and that Native American name!
Seriously tho, the dude is a fucking bigot, a racist and proud to be one too. And is counting on white guilt to make bank.
Why am I not surprised this game was made by an Elizabeth Warren?
Damn, Ninja'd! Didn't read the full thread before my last post. :P
But yeah, as others have said, this game had an interesting concept at its core, if a little implausible (if only Europeans hadn't arrived at the Americas, stone aged Native Americans would've become an advanced futuristic civilization? Okay... 8) ), but gameable in a gonzo kinda way. A game based on actual traditional native cultures, focusing on their customs, beliefs and folklore would've been interesting too. But instead this game had to be made by a self hating relative of Elizabeth Warren talking down to people.
The Aztecs were already developing into a flourishing civilization, although the dearth of domesticated animals would've probably severely delayed their ability to advance.
They had domesticated animals allright, the turkey and the xoloscuintle, but no beasts of burden, no wheel and to be honest probably no math since they took everything from the Maya (who probably took it from the Olmecs).
Just in case you're interested on an accurate depiction of the culture.
I checked that out online. Apparently they had wheeled toys, but it's understood that they didn't use wheeled carts because the terrain didn't suit roads (https://www.mexicolore.co.uk/aztecs/ask-experts/why-did-the-aztecs-only-use-wheels-for-toys-and-not-for-transport). They did have mathematics since that's required to build cities, as well as complex astronomy (https://www.google.com/books/edition/Skywatchers_of_Ancient_Mexico/ym9VAAAAMAAJ?hl=en), but much of their knowledge was lost during the conquest so we don't have a lot of material to work with.
In any case, it's a common trope in alternate history fiction (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ModernMayincatecEmpire) to have the Aztecs develop an advanced civilization and go on to conquer Europe.
Again, their math and plenty of their religion was taken from the Maya who probably took it from the Olmecs, neither did any advance on those fields (Maya or Aztec) beyond what they took from the previous dominant culture.
Yes, they had wheeled toys, and not enough brains to use wheeled carts even in the cities, yes the orography doesn't lend itself to that in Central México, but in their cities?
Anyhow, they are just more evidence that geographical/environmental determinism is true.
Yes, it is a common trope, and I'm not against it, as long as you (the royal you not YOU) don't try to present it as fact.
Wheeled carts are great, but if you already have a way of solving the problem, why bother?
The wheel itself is not some sudden groundbreaking invention. It's the natural evolution of rolling heavy stone blocks on logs. A roundish log is not hard to make. You get tired of shuttling logs back and forth to move your stone block, so you attach the logs to a frame and put your block on top of that.
Innovation is not a question of are we smart enough to figure it out; it's a question of does this improve things over how we currently do it, i.e., why bother? If you have canals, steep rocky terrain, or thick jungle and you also have lots of slaves, the wheeled cart becomes a "why bother" solution.
Quote from: Effete on August 05, 2022, 01:02:58 AM
It's a cult of power. The hate is a side effect of needing to dehumanize their "enemies" in order to obtain/retain that power.
Power is a limited resource but the acolytes get a free permission slip to hate. Such permission slip's are benefits on their own.
Dang, late to the party.
Yeah, I mean, I wasn't ever going to buy the book based on the racist kickstarter....and this didn't want to make me either. If the dude is trying to do marketing.....it's pretty bad LOL
So they must be sitting on a warehouse of books that ain't selling maybe?
Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on August 05, 2022, 01:03:39 PM
Dang, late to the party.
Yeah, I mean, I wasn't ever going to buy the book based on the racist kickstarter....and this didn't want to make me either. If the dude is trying to do marketing.....it's pretty bad LOL
So they must be sitting on a warehouse of books that ain't selling maybe?
There were three copies at one of my local stores. Last I checked, two of those sold, but not to me.
I've re-read his news post....Boy the dudes frustration is showing ain't it?
Is this a house of cards? Looks like it.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on August 05, 2022, 12:16:13 PM
Quote from: Effete on August 05, 2022, 01:02:58 AM
It's a cult of power. The hate is a side effect of needing to dehumanize their "enemies" in order to obtain/retain that power.
Power is a limited resource but the acolytes get a free permission slip to hate. Such permission slip's are benefits on their own.
That depends on how you are defining "power." The woke's trend of trying to dominate markets -- whether that's gaming, comics, film, social media, politics, etc. -- is certainly a powerplay. You're right that the effectiveness of the bully pulpit gives many people "permission" to be as vile as they can, but I maintain that most of it is not simply hate for hate's sake; it's all in service of obtaining or keeping power/supremecy.
Here's my prediction. If the game/company does go belly up....I'm sure us white racist gamers will get the blame.
Quote from: GhostNinja on August 05, 2022, 10:55:57 AM
I would almost like to see someone pirate his game, then make a game with the same concepts minus the wokeness and put it on the market and watch him weep when it does better.
Go Woke, go broke.
Or..or, hear me out. I kickstart a game where, in an alternative timeline, the europeans landed on the shores of North America and found it empty of human life? Because come to find out the indigenous population never crossed the land bridge. And the land was populated with monsters, like terrible cthulhu spawned monsters. Sounds cool to me....but the game would be called racist for erasing the natives I'm sure.
Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on August 05, 2022, 01:40:54 PM
Or..or, hear me out. I kickstart a game where, in an alternative timeline, the europeans landed on the shores of North America and found it empty of human life? Because come to find out the indigenous population never crossed the land bridge. And the land was populated with monsters, like terrible cthulhu spawned monsters. Sounds cool to me....but the game would be called racist for erasing the natives I'm sure.
Or there are natives of Siberian origin, but they're confined to the western half of N. America because the decedents of the Vikings rule the eastern half. S. America has all the monsters.
Quote from: rytrasmi on August 05, 2022, 02:01:58 PM
Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on August 05, 2022, 01:40:54 PM
Or..or, hear me out. I kickstart a game where, in an alternative timeline, the europeans landed on the shores of North America and found it empty of human life? Because come to find out the indigenous population never crossed the land bridge. And the land was populated with monsters, like terrible cthulhu spawned monsters. Sounds cool to me....but the game would be called racist for erasing the natives I'm sure.
Or there are natives of Siberian origin, but they're confined to the western half of N. America because the decedents of the Vikings rule the eastern half. S. America has all the monsters.
Oh dude, I like the way you think. LOL
Quote from: SHARK on August 05, 2022, 02:56:44 AMOn another note, I would LOVE a good game book that went into considerable detail about South American/Mexican culture, religion, mythology, all that good stuff.
Years ago, my mother was an ESL teacher to a group mainly of kids from Central America. She was teaching a mythology class and found her kids weren't that interested in the Greek gods. At the time, I had been reading about Mayans to try and figure out if they really did predict the end of the world (and learned that the end of the world would directly contradicted their world view). So my mom asked me to make some powerpoint slides detailing all the various gods and stuff found in Mayan legends (such as the Hunahpu twins). After the class, my mom reported that all the kids were amazed that these things existed as they had never heard of them before.
It was kind of dishearting to learn how much of that culture had been discarded. I would also like to see a fantasy RPG based on a suitably heroic fantasy version Mayan history.
Maybe I can convince my daughter to write one as she's probably a higher percentage of Native American than the dude that wrote Coyote and Crow.
Quote from: hedgehobbit on August 05, 2022, 02:41:26 PM
Quote from: SHARK on August 05, 2022, 02:56:44 AMOn another note, I would LOVE a good game book that went into considerable detail about South American/Mexican culture, religion, mythology, all that good stuff.
Years ago, my mother was an ESL teacher to a group mainly of kids from Central America. She was teaching a mythology class and found her kids weren't that interested in the Greek gods. At the time, I had been reading about Mayans to try and figure out if they really did predict the end of the world (and learned that the end of the world would directly contradicted their world view). So my mom asked me to make some powerpoint slides detailing all the various gods and stuff found in Mayan legends (such as the Hunahpu twins). After the class, my mom reported that all the kids were amazed that these things existed as they had never heard of them before.
It was kind of dishearting to learn how much of that culture had been discarded. I would also like to see a fantasy RPG based on a suitably heroic fantasy version Mayan history.
Maybe I can convince my daughter to write one as she's probably a higher percentage of Native American than the dude that wrote Coyote and Crow.
I'm already working on a Mayan inspired fantasy game, not historically accurate.
The thing that gets me the most about the Aztecs is how impressed people are that they built a city and had a calendar, apparently not realizing that the timeframe for this was the 1400s-1500s. Rome was well ahead of them millennia earlier. The Notre Dame was constructed centuries before the Aztecs rose. The Arabs were publishing books on algebra hundreds of years prior. The Aztecs were not any flavor of technological powerhouse, the only thing remotely impressive was that they accomplished what they did in relative isolation, while Europe/Asia/Africa had communication and trade for advancements to more easily flourish.
Pretty sure he said that if you're an Indian, you can run it in a way that is realistic to your tribe. So, if I could get my dad (card-carrying tribal member, I'm under the blood quantum, so no) to run a rpg, we could have a doozy of a game.
Denim jackets, unemployment, DV cases and alcoholism! And the shunning of anyone who leaves town to go get an education beyond HS.
Or better yet, we just let racist Connor cry into the wind, and his game gather dust alongside Racial Holy Way, MyFarog and the assorted detritus of the RPG world.
Quote from: rytrasmi on August 05, 2022, 02:01:58 PM
Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on August 05, 2022, 01:40:54 PM
Or..or, hear me out. I kickstart a game where, in an alternative timeline, the europeans landed on the shores of North America and found it empty of human life? Because come to find out the indigenous population never crossed the land bridge. And the land was populated with monsters, like terrible cthulhu spawned monsters. Sounds cool to me....but the game would be called racist for erasing the natives I'm sure.
Or there are natives of Siberian origin, but they're confined to the western half of N. America because the decedents of the Vikings rule the eastern half. S. America has all the monsters.
...or...
A virulent plague had wiped out the indigenous people because Chinese explorers came, looked around, and left.
I think it's missing the point a little bit to call this a failure.
His KS did over a million dollars, so that's his sales floor. Do we have anyone here that would be able to estimate the production costs (the books seem to be in full color, pretty much something like industry standard quality in terms of paper, etc.)?
It's possible this guy has already walked away with a quarter of a million dollars just from the KS, and then further sales would be the cherry, rather than the sundae itself.
The tone of his post does seem a bit on the desperate side of cringe, so maybe the production costs were very high and the KS profits are way smaller than they appear to be...
Quote from: BronzeDragon on August 05, 2022, 08:29:04 PM
I think it's missing the point a little bit to call this a failure.
His KS did over a million dollars, so that's his sales floor. Do we have anyone here that would be able to estimate the production costs (the books seem to be in full color, pretty much something like industry standard quality in terms of paper, etc.)?
The book is 300 pages, hard cover, full color. Looks to be 8.5"x11". There were 16,269 backers on the KS.
According to the free estimate I got from Mixam Printing, estimated cost would be $211,690 and 50 cents.
Quote from: Effete on August 05, 2022, 09:26:38 PM
The book is 300 pages, hard cover, full color. Looks to be 8.5"x11". There were 16,269 backers on the KS.
According to the free estimate I got from Mixam Printing, estimated cost would be $211,690 and 50 cents.
Well, if this estimate is even close to true, that means this guy has already cleared anywhere between half and three quarters of a million dollars, before any sales outside of the KS. I don't think get woke go broke even remotely applies here.
However, it still begs the question of why that letter sounds so close to a desperation plea for more customers. Maybe the guy just
really likes money.
P.S. : Probably closer to the lower estimate, since there are obviously costs other than printing. Paying for art, shipping, etc.
Even if the guy wasn't so acerbic I still wouldn't buy or play this game.
I'm just not really interested in Native American culture for gaming purposes (unless it's the American Wild West). Same as most other cultures. I only want to play games that I'm familiar with. I'm a boring bastard but hey that's the way I like it. ;D
Quote from: BronzeDragon on August 05, 2022, 09:54:38 PM
Quote from: Effete on August 05, 2022, 09:26:38 PM
The book is 300 pages, hard cover, full color. Looks to be 8.5"x11". There were 16,269 backers on the KS.
According to the free estimate I got from Mixam Printing, estimated cost would be $211,690 and 50 cents.
Well, if this estimate is even close to true, that means this guy has already cleared anywhere between half and three quarters of a million dollars, before any sales outside of the KS. I don't think get woke go broke even remotely applies here.
It looks like another 8-12K for shipping (depending on how many are international vs domestic).
After overhead, payroll, and reinvestment, he probably made a clean $500K.
QuoteHowever, it still begs the question of why that letter sounds so close to a desperation plea for more customers. Maybe the guy just really likes money.
It seems like it was sparked by people in the comments proudly flaunting their white guilt. But it's weird to try to get someone to buy/play your book by calling them racist and stupid. It was probably something like 3 people in the comments and the guy just couldn't help but use the R-card on them. Lefties eat their own when they can't find red meat.
Quote from: Effete on August 05, 2022, 01:17:38 PMI maintain that most of it is not simply hate for hate's sake; it's all in service of obtaining or keeping power/supremecy.
I argue its more religous in nature. I err more on the side of this being 70% 'Easy way to find purpose in life' with 30% of it being power plays.
There is always power grabs involved in any movement. I maintain that most of SOCJUS is genuine, but misguided madness and a gnostic disdain for life.
Quote from: BronzeDragon on August 05, 2022, 08:29:04 PM
I think it's missing the point a little bit to call this a failure.
His KS did over a million dollars, so that's his sales floor. Do we have anyone here that would be able to estimate the production costs (the books seem to be in full color, pretty much something like industry standard quality in terms of paper, etc.)?
It's possible this guy has already walked away with a quarter of a million dollars just from the KS, and then further sales would be the cherry, rather than the sundae itself.
The tone of his post does seem a bit on the desperate side of cringe, so maybe the production costs were very high and the KS profits are way smaller than they appear to be...
Or he pissed the KS money away on office furniture and catering.
Quote from: Effete on August 05, 2022, 10:16:37 PM
Quote from: BronzeDragon on August 05, 2022, 09:54:38 PM
Quote from: Effete on August 05, 2022, 09:26:38 PM
The book is 300 pages, hard cover, full color. Looks to be 8.5"x11". There were 16,269 backers on the KS.
According to the free estimate I got from Mixam Printing, estimated cost would be $211,690 and 50 cents.
Well, if this estimate is even close to true, that means this guy has already cleared anywhere between half and three quarters of a million dollars, before any sales outside of the KS. I don't think get woke go broke even remotely applies here.
It looks like another 8-12K for shipping (depending on how many are international vs domestic).
After overhead, payroll, and reinvestment, he probably made a clean $500K.
QuoteHowever, it still begs the question of why that letter sounds so close to a desperation plea for more customers. Maybe the guy just really likes money.
It seems like it was sparked by people in the comments proudly flaunting their white guilt. But it's weird to try to get someone to buy/play your book by calling them racist and stupid. It was probably something like 3 people in the comments and the guy just couldn't help but use the R-card on them. Lefties eat their own when they can't find red meat.
What are we basing the figures for overheads and in particular payroll on?
"Our goal in creating our first book is to have to have as many Native members on the team as possible and especially in key creative positions"In this context I could see payroll costs spiralling.
Also does Kickstarter allow shenanigans like putting in your own money to generate interest?
Finally check out the Intern (Director) job application. Raises a lot of exploitation red flags to me...
https://coyoteandcrow.net/2021/05/09/coyote-crow-creative-opportunities/
Quote from: BronzeDragon on August 05, 2022, 09:54:38 PM
Quote from: Effete on August 05, 2022, 09:26:38 PM
The book is 300 pages, hard cover, full color. Looks to be 8.5"x11". There were 16,269 backers on the KS.
According to the free estimate I got from Mixam Printing, estimated cost would be $211,690 and 50 cents.
Well, if this estimate is even close to true, that means this guy has already cleared anywhere between half and three quarters of a million dollars, before any sales outside of the KS. I don't think get woke go broke even remotely applies here.
But would someone who's had such a successful kickstarter print only the required number of books?
What happens if they printed more, and now have a warehouse full of books that need to be moved??
Quote from: ponta1010 on August 06, 2022, 03:36:12 AM
Quote from: BronzeDragon on August 05, 2022, 09:54:38 PM
Quote from: Effete on August 05, 2022, 09:26:38 PM
The book is 300 pages, hard cover, full color. Looks to be 8.5"x11". There were 16,269 backers on the KS.
According to the free estimate I got from Mixam Printing, estimated cost would be $211,690 and 50 cents.
Well, if this estimate is even close to true, that means this guy has already cleared anywhere between half and three quarters of a million dollars, before any sales outside of the KS. I don't think get woke go broke even remotely applies here.
But would someone who's had such a successful kickstarter print only the required number of books?
What happens if they printed more, and now have a warehouse full of books that need to be moved??
This is a really good point. To say nothing of associated overheads and contracts like office leases and business loans if he thought there was a long term market.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on August 06, 2022, 12:07:30 AM
Quote from: BronzeDragon on August 05, 2022, 08:29:04 PM
I think it's missing the point a little bit to call this a failure.
His KS did over a million dollars, so that's his sales floor. Do we have anyone here that would be able to estimate the production costs (the books seem to be in full color, pretty much something like industry standard quality in terms of paper, etc.)?
It's possible this guy has already walked away with a quarter of a million dollars just from the KS, and then further sales would be the cherry, rather than the sundae itself.
The tone of his post does seem a bit on the desperate side of cringe, so maybe the production costs were very high and the KS profits are way smaller than they appear to be...
Or he pissed the KS money away on office furniture and catering.
You mean like Ken Whitman did?
Quote from: Ratman_tf on August 06, 2022, 12:07:30 AM
Quote from: BronzeDragon on August 05, 2022, 08:29:04 PM
I think it's missing the point a little bit to call this a failure.
His KS did over a million dollars, so that's his sales floor. Do we have anyone here that would be able to estimate the production costs (the books seem to be in full color, pretty much something like industry standard quality in terms of paper, etc.)?
It's possible this guy has already walked away with a quarter of a million dollars just from the KS, and then further sales would be the cherry, rather than the sundae itself.
The tone of his post does seem a bit on the desperate side of cringe, so maybe the production costs were very high and the KS profits are way smaller than they appear to be...
Or he pissed the KS money away on office furniture and catering.
Which happens ALOT both with KS money and new venture capital money in lots of businesses. I think a million GROSS is a neat number. Anyone who has been in business for themselves knows gross sales and revenue are bragging numbers and that is it. All that matters is NET.
Quote from: Visitor Q on August 06, 2022, 02:46:27 AM
Finally check out the Intern (Director) job application. Raises a lot of exploitation red flags to me...
https://coyoteandcrow.net/2021/05/09/coyote-crow-creative-opportunities/
That's nuts.
Who would hire an outsider as an intern to eventually run the company? Even at face value it's bonkers.
No wampum for Conner.
(https://static.stacker.com/s3fs-public/styles/slide_desktop/s3/00000578_4.png)
Quote from: rytrasmi on August 06, 2022, 08:41:14 AM
Quote from: Visitor Q on August 06, 2022, 02:46:27 AM
Finally check out the Intern (Director) job application. Raises a lot of exploitation red flags to me...
https://coyoteandcrow.net/2021/05/09/coyote-crow-creative-opportunities/
That's nuts.
Who would hire an outsider as an intern to eventually run the company? Even at face value it's bonkers.
As mentioned earlier, this guy doesn't know how to run a company. It's probably why he's looking for someone else to do it, but the fact he's looking for a high-level employee to start out as an intern until they "prove themself" or something shows he has no clue what he's doing.
He's gonna piss away that KS money in no time.
Quote from: Visitor Q on August 06, 2022, 02:46:27 AMFinally check out the Intern (Director) job application. Raises a lot of exploitation red flags to me...
https://coyoteandcrow.net/2021/05/09/coyote-crow-creative-opportunities/
The main thing I see here is how he refers to the director position as doing "menial work". As I guy that ran a business for over a decade, most of my job would be menial work: bank runs, filling out government forms, dealing with payroll, talking to vendors etc. I guess Connor found that running an RPG company wasn't the exciting game experience he was expecting.
The other was how he thinks Coyote & Crow is in it for the "long haul". A million dollar Kickstarter is one thing, but trying to parley that into a stable job in the future is something completely different. And their Kickstarter page showed over 22 people involved already. That million dollars isn't going to last long split 22 ways.
Quote from: DocJones on August 06, 2022, 08:53:30 AM
No wampum for Conner.
(https://static.stacker.com/s3fs-public/styles/slide_desktop/s3/00000578_4.png)
According to various sources on the internet..... Iron Eyes Cody (born Espera Oscar de Corti, April 3, 1904 – January 4, 1999) was an American actor of Italian descent who portrayed Native Americans in Hollywood films.
He is more Native American than the author of C&C :p
Quote from: Krugus on August 06, 2022, 09:47:01 AM
He is more Native American than the author of C&C :p
Ha ha... Probably true. ;)
Quote from: Effete on August 06, 2022, 08:57:41 AM
........
He's gonna piss away that KS money in no time.
It's my suspicion, without any knowledge mind you, that the money is already gone. Eaten up by expenses he had no clue about.
Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on August 06, 2022, 10:56:06 AM
It's my suspicion, without any knowledge mind you, that the money is already gone. Eaten up by expenses he had no clue about.
Expenses like, you know, actually paying the artists and other contributors. Obviously he learned nothing from Jamison Stone.
Fuck this asshole.
This is just bizarre.
If I buy your stuff, you no longer have any say in what I do with it. I'm bound by national and state laws, local ordinances, the Ten Commandments, and the unwritten rules of basic human decency and old-fashioned politeness.
Note the absence of "the insane rantings of activist game developers".
Quote from: Krugus on August 06, 2022, 09:47:01 AM
According to various sources on the internet..... Iron Eyes Cody (born Espera Oscar de Corti, April 3, 1904 – January 4, 1999) was an American actor of Italian descent who portrayed Native Americans in Hollywood films.
He is more Native American than the author of C&C :p
Yes he was Sicilian.
However he was an excellent role-player and would have been a fine addition to your C&C table. :-)
Greetings!
It sounds like a terrible game. The author sounds like a terrible, racist fuck. That is condescending as well, and arrogant. He can get fucked.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
I wonder if white people have permission to LARP this.
Holy crap that dude looks less native american than I do. And i'm italian lol
Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on August 06, 2022, 04:41:57 PM
I wonder if white people have permission to LARP this.
Judging from photos of the lead designer I'd say yes.
He claims membership in the Cherokee Nation. Their requirements for membership is that the person be directly descended from a person recorded on Dawes Rolls, a census of people living in Indian Territory between 1898-1906. To be included on the Dawes Rolls, a person had to have 1/4 Cherokee blood. Assuming 4 generations between them and you, you could qualify as a member today with as little as 1/64 Cherokee blood.
https://www.cherokee.org/all-services/tribal-registration/frequently-asked-questions/
Odds are he's not eating crow, or showing shame, or anything like that.
Odds are just a grifter changing tactics to get the last dozen sales out of his product.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 04, 2022, 10:55:22 PM
Get Woke Go Broke, nope, not buying his shit, not playing his shit, hell I wouldn't even pirate it (and pirating shit is a honorable and ancient tradition in México).
Not because I'm white (I am), not because I'm Latino (I am), not because he erased my kind from his world (He did), but because he's a fucking racist POS, just like I wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole Varg Vikernes' myfarog for the exact same reason.
BUY MY GAME YOU RACIST PIG!!!!
I hope he never sells another copy.
Quote from: Godsmonkey on August 07, 2022, 10:13:39 AM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 04, 2022, 10:55:22 PM
Get Woke Go Broke, nope, not buying his shit, not playing his shit, hell I wouldn't even pirate it (and pirating shit is a honorable and ancient tradition in México).
Not because I'm white (I am), not because I'm Latino (I am), not because he erased my kind from his world (He did), but because he's a fucking racist POS, just like I wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole Varg Vikernes' myfarog for the exact same reason.
BUY MY GAME YOU RACIST PIG!!!!
I hope he never sells another copy.
To be honest, I was looking at it on Amazon and have considered buying it. More to see what it does with its setting and to look into its mechanics than because of the bullshit reasons the author wants me to buy it for (although he might just get his wish that it'll sit unplayed on the shelf). Rest assured though, I'll be ignoring the idea that I should stick to only what's written on the page just because I'm non-Indiginous. That's just nonsense, but I often argue that a creation shouldn't just be overlooked because it's creator is a shitbag.
Quote from: HappyDaze on August 07, 2022, 10:53:13 AM
Quote from: Godsmonkey on August 07, 2022, 10:13:39 AM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 04, 2022, 10:55:22 PM
Get Woke Go Broke, nope, not buying his shit, not playing his shit, hell I wouldn't even pirate it (and pirating shit is a honorable and ancient tradition in México).
Not because I'm white (I am), not because I'm Latino (I am), not because he erased my kind from his world (He did), but because he's a fucking racist POS, just like I wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole Varg Vikernes' myfarog for the exact same reason.
BUY MY GAME YOU RACIST PIG!!!!
I hope he never sells another copy.
To be honest, I was looking at it on Amazon and have considered buying it. More to see what it does with its setting and to look into its mechanics than because of the bullshit reasons the author wants me to buy it for (although he might just get his wish that it'll sit unplayed on the shelf). Rest assured though, I'll be ignoring the idea that I should stick to only what's written on the page just because I'm non-Indiginous. That's just nonsense, but I often argue that a creation shouldn't just be overlooked because it's creator is a shitbag.
Should I fund a shitbag that hates me? A racist shitbag that hates me for my skin color? No.
You're free to keep giving money to such shitbags of course, I'm not advocating for cancelling the shitbag. I'll however work to try and see nobody wants to buy his shit.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 07, 2022, 10:56:41 AM
Quote from: HappyDaze on August 07, 2022, 10:53:13 AM
Quote from: Godsmonkey on August 07, 2022, 10:13:39 AM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 04, 2022, 10:55:22 PM
Get Woke Go Broke, nope, not buying his shit, not playing his shit, hell I wouldn't even pirate it (and pirating shit is a honorable and ancient tradition in México).
Not because I'm white (I am), not because I'm Latino (I am), not because he erased my kind from his world (He did), but because he's a fucking racist POS, just like I wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole Varg Vikernes' myfarog for the exact same reason.
BUY MY GAME YOU RACIST PIG!!!!
I hope he never sells another copy.
To be honest, I was looking at it on Amazon and have considered buying it. More to see what it does with its setting and to look into its mechanics than because of the bullshit reasons the author wants me to buy it for (although he might just get his wish that it'll sit unplayed on the shelf). Rest assured though, I'll be ignoring the idea that I should stick to only what's written on the page just because I'm non-Indiginous. That's just nonsense, but I often argue that a creation shouldn't just be overlooked because it's creator is a shitbag.
Should I fund a shitbag that hates me? A racist shitbag that hates me for my skin color? No.
You're free to keep giving money to such shitbags of course, I'm not advocating for cancelling the shitbag. I'll however work to try and see nobody wants to buy his shit.
I'm looking at it as a simple transaction: I'm getting something for my money. Does that mean a shitbag makes money? Double yep (Amazon makes money on it too), but that's totally beside the point to me since I'm getting something that might be useful/interesting to me. Of course, it might be that it isn't useful/interesting, but that's not going to be determined based on the guy behind it being a shitbag; I'll base it on the work itself.
Quote from: HappyDaze on August 07, 2022, 11:20:30 AM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 07, 2022, 10:56:41 AM
Quote from: HappyDaze on August 07, 2022, 10:53:13 AM
Quote from: Godsmonkey on August 07, 2022, 10:13:39 AM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 04, 2022, 10:55:22 PM
Get Woke Go Broke, nope, not buying his shit, not playing his shit, hell I wouldn't even pirate it (and pirating shit is a honorable and ancient tradition in México).
Not because I'm white (I am), not because I'm Latino (I am), not because he erased my kind from his world (He did), but because he's a fucking racist POS, just like I wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole Varg Vikernes' myfarog for the exact same reason.
BUY MY GAME YOU RACIST PIG!!!!
I hope he never sells another copy.
To be honest, I was looking at it on Amazon and have considered buying it. More to see what it does with its setting and to look into its mechanics than because of the bullshit reasons the author wants me to buy it for (although he might just get his wish that it'll sit unplayed on the shelf). Rest assured though, I'll be ignoring the idea that I should stick to only what's written on the page just because I'm non-Indiginous. That's just nonsense, but I often argue that a creation shouldn't just be overlooked because it's creator is a shitbag.
Should I fund a shitbag that hates me? A racist shitbag that hates me for my skin color? No.
You're free to keep giving money to such shitbags of course, I'm not advocating for cancelling the shitbag. I'll however work to try and see nobody wants to buy his shit.
I'm looking at it as a simple transaction: I'm getting something for my money. Does that mean a shitbag makes money? Double yep (Amazon makes money on it too), but that's totally beside the point to me since I'm getting something that might be useful/interesting to me. Of course, it might be that it isn't useful/interesting, but that's not going to be determined based on the guy behind it being a shitbag; I'll base it on the work itself.
I was half tempted to get it for similar reasons but it is expensive! I am not sure I can justify that kind of money on a book I know won't get played. Shame the Trove is no longer with us. I used it for exactly this kind of situation.
I'd suggest buying it directly from the website to ensure at the least the sale doesn't get registered with any third party algorithims and encourage this kind of product. Might also be worth a punt emailing him for a pdf copy for a review copy.
Quote from: Visitor Q on August 07, 2022, 12:01:11 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on August 07, 2022, 11:20:30 AM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 07, 2022, 10:56:41 AM
Quote from: HappyDaze on August 07, 2022, 10:53:13 AM
Quote from: Godsmonkey on August 07, 2022, 10:13:39 AM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 04, 2022, 10:55:22 PM
Get Woke Go Broke, nope, not buying his shit, not playing his shit, hell I wouldn't even pirate it (and pirating shit is a honorable and ancient tradition in México).
Not because I'm white (I am), not because I'm Latino (I am), not because he erased my kind from his world (He did), but because he's a fucking racist POS, just like I wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole Varg Vikernes' myfarog for the exact same reason.
BUY MY GAME YOU RACIST PIG!!!!
I hope he never sells another copy.
To be honest, I was looking at it on Amazon and have considered buying it. More to see what it does with its setting and to look into its mechanics than because of the bullshit reasons the author wants me to buy it for (although he might just get his wish that it'll sit unplayed on the shelf). Rest assured though, I'll be ignoring the idea that I should stick to only what's written on the page just because I'm non-Indiginous. That's just nonsense, but I often argue that a creation shouldn't just be overlooked because it's creator is a shitbag.
Should I fund a shitbag that hates me? A racist shitbag that hates me for my skin color? No.
You're free to keep giving money to such shitbags of course, I'm not advocating for cancelling the shitbag. I'll however work to try and see nobody wants to buy his shit.
I'm looking at it as a simple transaction: I'm getting something for my money. Does that mean a shitbag makes money? Double yep (Amazon makes money on it too), but that's totally beside the point to me since I'm getting something that might be useful/interesting to me. Of course, it might be that it isn't useful/interesting, but that's not going to be determined based on the guy behind it being a shitbag; I'll base it on the work itself.
I was half tempted to get it for similar reasons but it is expensive! I am not sure I can justify that kind of money on a book I know won't get played. Shame the Trove is no longer with us. I used it for exactly this kind of situation.
I'd suggest buying it directly from the website to ensure at the least the sale doesn't get registered with any third party algorithims and encourage this kind of product. Might also be worth a punt emailing him for a pdf copy for a review copy.
It's not really any more expensive than the typical hardcover core book, and I've got plenty of disposable income these days (but not enough to start back into GW miniatures).
I absolutely don't give a shit about third party algorithms, and if it encourages unique products, then good. I don't think the algorithms are primed to decode whether the creators are assholes, so trying to dodge them isn't necessarily going to help.
I doubt I'd be welcome as a reviewer as the author is pretty clear he doesn't give two shits for a non-Indiginous opinion.
Quote from: HappyDaze on August 07, 2022, 10:53:13 AM
To be honest, I was looking at it on Amazon and have considered buying it. More to see what it does with its setting and to look into its mechanics than because of the bullshit reasons the author wants me to buy it for (although he might just get his wish that it'll sit unplayed on the shelf). Rest assured though, I'll be ignoring the idea that I should stick to only what's written on the page just because I'm non-Indiginous. That's just nonsense, but I often argue that a creation shouldn't just be overlooked because it's creator is a shitbag.
My son got the PDF via the Kickstarter, and I've looked over their copy some by now.
It seems like a workable system. A standard-ish dice pool system with 9 attributes (similar to White Wolf), plus skills and psychic abilities. I like how each skill has two attributes that it is based on. If a character has any training in the skill, they can use the higher of the two attributes. If they don't, they use the lower of the two attributes.
My main issue with the game is that too much is unfamiliar to players. I considered running it at a convention to give it a try, but I feel like most of the convention game session would be learning curve. There's new mechanics, new technology, new psychic powers, plus the new alternate-future culture that the characters live in. To me, it's a bit too much to learn for a one-shot.
Quote from: Godsmonkey on August 07, 2022, 10:13:39 AM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 04, 2022, 10:55:22 PM
Get Woke Go Broke, nope, not buying his shit, not playing his shit, hell I wouldn't even pirate it (and pirating shit is a honorable and ancient tradition in México).
Not because I'm white (I am), not because I'm Latino (I am), not because he erased my kind from his world (He did), but because he's a fucking racist POS, just like I wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole Varg Vikernes' myfarog for the exact same reason.
BUY MY GAME YOU RACIST PIG!!!!
I hope he never sells another copy.
Greetings!
*LAUGHING*!!! Your commentary had me choking on my coffee from laughing so hard!
Fucking awesome. I totally agree, too.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: jhkim on August 07, 2022, 07:36:37 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on August 07, 2022, 10:53:13 AM
To be honest, I was looking at it on Amazon and have considered buying it. More to see what it does with its setting and to look into its mechanics than because of the bullshit reasons the author wants me to buy it for (although he might just get his wish that it'll sit unplayed on the shelf). Rest assured though, I'll be ignoring the idea that I should stick to only what's written on the page just because I'm non-Indiginous. That's just nonsense, but I often argue that a creation shouldn't just be overlooked because it's creator is a shitbag.
My son got the PDF via the Kickstarter, and I've looked over their copy some by now.
It seems like a workable system. A standard-ish dice pool system with 9 attributes (similar to White Wolf), plus skills and psychic abilities. I like how each skill has two attributes that it is based on. If a character has any training in the skill, they can use the higher of the two attributes. If they don't, they use the lower of the two attributes.
My main issue with the game is that too much is unfamiliar to players. I considered running it at a convention to give it a try, but I feel like most of the convention game session would be learning curve. There's new mechanics, new technology, new psychic powers, plus the new alternate-future culture that the characters live in. To me, it's a bit too much to learn for a one-shot.
How does the amount needed to learn compare with Eclipse Phase, because that seems to have a similar problem in my eyes?
Quote from: HappyDaze on August 07, 2022, 11:58:51 PM
How does the amount needed to learn compare with Eclipse Phase, because that seems to have a similar problem in my eyes?
I can confirm Eclipse Phase is a fucking handful.
Love the premise and the whole idea of the setting, but it will be hard to convince anyone to actually play it.
Quote from: BronzeDragon on August 08, 2022, 12:58:59 AM
Quote from: HappyDaze on August 07, 2022, 11:58:51 PM
How does the amount needed to learn compare with Eclipse Phase, because that seems to have a similar problem in my eyes?
I can confirm Eclipse Phase is a fucking handful.
Love the premise and the whole idea of the setting, but it will be hard to convince anyone to actually play it.
I was so happy that EP2e made it mechanically easier to play the game, but just as disappointed that it didn't make the setting any easier to grok for new players. It's so hard to know what is normal/typical in the setting and what is exotic/weird.
Quote from: HappyDaze on August 07, 2022, 11:58:51 PM
How does the amount needed to learn compare with Eclipse Phase, because that seems to have a similar problem in my eyes?
I had the same problem with Blue Planet. Just when you think you understand the system, the underwater mechanics change things again. I threw the pdf in my Megadrive and never looked at it again.
What's "problematic" about the attitude of the C&C promoter is his display of impatience at the question of whether white people should play the game at all. If you're going to propose a totalitarian revamp of morality, you should expect people to question it, and you should answer those questions with good cheer, not snarky ejaculations like "FFS."
Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on August 08, 2022, 01:18:10 PM
What's "problematic" about the attitude of the C&C promoter is his display of impatience at the question of whether white people should play the game at all. If you're going to propose a totalitarian revamp of morality, you should expect people to question it, and you should answer those questions with good cheer, not snarky ejaculations like "FFS."
What's worse is that I might just buy his product making his ejaculation premature.
Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on August 08, 2022, 01:18:10 PM
What's "problematic" about the attitude of the C&C promoter is his display of impatience at the question of whether white people should play the game at all. If you're going to propose a totalitarian revamp of morality, you should expect people to question it, and you should answer those questions with good cheer, not snarky ejaculations like "FFS."
Imagine caring about the color of someone's skin, who they sleep with, the god they pray to, and who they love when they play your make believe product full of Dwarves fighting fish people to get treasure.
If you worry so much about those things you must be mainlining a bar of Xanex to help you sleep at night ...
Quote from: Effete on August 05, 2022, 01:02:58 AM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on August 05, 2022, 12:23:26 AM
Yes, wokeness is absolutely a cult of hate.
It's a cult of power. The hate is a side effect of needing to dehumanize their "enemies" in order to obtain/retain that power.
No. Theres always been that element of hatefulness in every iteration. They feed on it. They incite it. They accuse others of it. It is a hatemongering cult.
Quote from: wmarshal on August 04, 2022, 10:38:06 PM
Coyote and Crow made sure to shame white people, now has regrets
I don't ally with deviants, degenerates, and heterophobes.
Quote from: HappyDaze on August 07, 2022, 11:58:51 PM
Quote from: jhkim on August 07, 2022, 07:36:37 PM
My son got the PDF via the Kickstarter, and I've looked over their copy some by now.
It seems like a workable system. A standard-ish dice pool system with 9 attributes (similar to White Wolf), plus skills and psychic abilities. I like how each skill has two attributes that it is based on. If a character has any training in the skill, they can use the higher of the two attributes. If they don't, they use the lower of the two attributes.
My main issue with the game is that too much is unfamiliar to players. I considered running it at a convention to give it a try, but I feel like most of the convention game session would be learning curve. There's new mechanics, new technology, new psychic powers, plus the new alternate-future culture that the characters live in. To me, it's a bit too much to learn for a one-shot.
How does the amount needed to learn compare with Eclipse Phase, because that seems to have a similar problem in my eyes?
I haven't tried Eclipse Phase, so I don't know with that. I can compare to Blue Planet, which I really liked reading about but haven't been able to play or run yet. The tech is easier to handle than Blue Planet, but I think overall it is probably more difficult to learn.
He has a crowdfunding for an expansion scheduled to go to Backerkit's program mid-September.
https://www.backerkit.com/call_to_action/9e22bdbd-510e-4f3d-808e-898715d65a5d/landing?ref=c-main-page
[deleted question of KS fulfillment]
Quote from: Almost_Useless on August 10, 2022, 10:08:52 PM
Has he delivered anything? He has a crowdfunding for an expansion scheduled to go to Backerkit's program mid-September.
https://www.backerkit.com/call_to_action/9e22bdbd-510e-4f3d-808e-898715d65a5d/landing?ref=c-main-page
The book has made it into retail channels; I saw it at my FLGS last time I was there.
I should have looked closer before questioning that.
I would like to see an Imaro RPG get made. It's an afrofantasy setting written by Charles Saunders (rest his soul) that pioneered the sword & soul (sub)genre.
Hmm... I don't see how 'get woke go broke' still gets bandied about when the Kickstarter generated over $1 million in contributions.
I also don't think it's crazy to suggest buying a book/game that you may not play/read. I have several RPG books that I bought because I wanted to mine them for ideas more than I actually wanted to play them. And the fact that it offers A rule system that doesn't focus on violence as the first option for story resolution seems like exactly the kind of thing that is worth looking at in more detail.
Quote from: deadDMwalking on August 11, 2022, 03:53:53 PM
Hmm... I don't see how 'get woke go broke' still gets bandied about when the Kickstarter generated over $1 million in contributions.
Ultimate wokeness is putting abstract social change over profit until the country collapses. Its just a question of when. If its not broke enough, its not woke enough.
QuoteI also don't think it's crazy to suggest buying a book/game that you may not play/read.
To use as kindling? Hard to get ideas from something you don't read.
Quote from: deadDMwalking on August 11, 2022, 03:53:53 PM
Hmm... I don't see how 'get woke go broke' still gets bandied about when the Kickstarter generated over $1 million in contributions.
I also don't think it's crazy to suggest buying a book/game that you may not play/read. I have several RPG books that I bought because I wanted to mine them for ideas more than I actually wanted to play them. And the fact that it offers A rule system that doesn't focus on violence as the first option for story resolution seems like exactly the kind of thing that is worth looking at in more detail.
One can raise a million dollars and still go broke. It wouldn't be unheard of for him to spend $990,000 on production and payments to the 20+ people he was paying. If he still comes out ahead by "$10,000" that may still leave him effectively broke if he gave up a day job he was working the past year or so. He mismanaged the project to where he didn't have product to promote at the GenCon booth he paid for (wasted money), an employee of his apparently has hijacked a significant amount of the product (lost product), and he's had to start begging/shaming white people to buy his product. It doesn't sound like things are going great for Coyote and Crow.
Frankly his 2nd Kickstarter he announced looks like it could be a desperate attempt to get more cash quickly to help cover expenses from the 1st Kickstarter. It's a bit irresponsible to start a new Kickstarter when your currency project is in a bit of chaos. If I was someone that worked on the 1st Kickstarter I'd make sure I was fully paid up today, and not accept any assurances to get paid once the money from the 2nd Kickstarter comes in. Don't fall for the trap that you just need to wait a bit longer. Raise hell now. We've seen with other Kickstarters how some incompetents start to roll one Kickstarter to cover the next, and then the next, and then the next until it all comes crashing down.
Maybe Coyote and Crow is in better shape than I think, but just looking at what's been going on of late I'm feeling pessimistic at how this is going to turn out.
Quote from: deadDMwalking on August 11, 2022, 03:53:53 PM
Hmm... I don't see how 'get woke go broke' still gets bandied about when the Kickstarter generated over $1 million in contributions.
I also don't think it's crazy to suggest buying a book/game that you may not play/read. I have several RPG books that I bought because I wanted to mine them for ideas more than I actually wanted to play them. And the fact that it offers A rule system that doesn't focus on violence as the first option for story resolution seems like exactly the kind of thing that is worth looking at in more detail.
1: Then you know nothing of production. Production could have eaten anywhere from a quarter to upwards of half what they made depending on book size and other factors. Unless they over printed, which they may have. In which case they could have far less. Their antics suggest they overprinted or vastly underestimated production cost.
Which is far far too common.
2: Then why are they begging and threatening people to buy the book? You do not do that when you are swimming in cash. Well. Ok. These creeps might. And yes people buy books alll the time just to say they bought it. Collectors or Virtue spending at its best.
I think the message was directed far more at the RPG.net types than your typical gamer. It's yelling at people who are SCARED TO PLAY THE GAME. It's not yelling at the average gamer who'd pick it up because they were interested and play it like the would any others...
And I have a theory the majority of white people who paid into this and bought it were exactly the RPG.net Non-gamers. The type that wanted to support it because it was a virtue signal that made them feel good about themselves, more than it was a game they were actually interested in playing.
The author now is frustrated because all those folks who ended up buying it, aren't interested in playing any games for it. Which is going to be the death of the game in the long run. Especially if he over promised on Kickstarter stretchmarks.
A million+ Dollars seems like a wild success, until nobody is interested in your game anymore and you end up declaring bankrupty and having to sell the IP to another company. Like what happened with 7th Sea second edition...John Wick got over a million dollars, and delivered an experimental game that made himself happy rather than what everybody wanted. Lo and behold a few years later he has to shut down his company, lay off his employees and sell the IP to Chaosium because nobody cares about it.
As for being a Paleface, I'd reckon he qualifies for Tribal status. Indigenous folks have almost been wiped out genetically, they're a lot less choosey when it comes to Tribal membership these days, because in order to keep their cultures alive, they can't afford to be. If he's being interviewed by tribal websites and he's a tribal member he's probably at least a quarter tribal and likely group up with the traditions. It's a low blow to call him an Elizabeth Warren.
I'll admit I'm a horrible person. Reading the news section of the site is so entertaining. In the latest they're seeking help with donating books and name dropped the dude that he was forced to fire. So people are crap, don't matter the color of your skin or if you're just like him. LOL
Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on August 11, 2022, 08:19:10 PM
I'll admit I'm a horrible person. Reading the news section of the site is so entertaining. In the latest they're seeking help with donating books and name dropped the dude that he was forced to fire. So people are crap, don't matter the color of your skin or if you're just like him. LOL
He's asking for help on the shipping costs for the donations when the pledge level stated Coyote and Crow would take care of that shipping. That would seem to violate the terms of the pledge, and reflects poor planning on his part. He would seem to now have about 5,000 books that he's paying storage for, but doesn't have the funds to ship. The Kickstarter is effectively broke because it lacks the funds to fulfill its obligations, and if he doesn't get the money to start shipping those books soon he's going to either be going into debt, or he'll have to abandon/destroy the books. This is not looking like a success. So yeah, raising a million dollars doesn't prevent one from going broke. In fact, the appearance of success can be a trap.
Quote from: wmarshal on August 11, 2022, 08:41:24 PM
Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on August 11, 2022, 08:19:10 PM
I'll admit I'm a horrible person. Reading the news section of the site is so entertaining. In the latest they're seeking help with donating books and name dropped the dude that he was forced to fire. So people are crap, don't matter the color of your skin or if you're just like him. LOL
He's asking for help on the shipping costs for the donations when the pledge level stated Coyote and Crow would take care of that shipping. That would seem to violate the terms of the pledge, and reflects poor planning on his part. He would seem to now have about 5,000 books that he's paying storage for, but doesn't have the funds to ship. The Kickstarter is effectively broke because it lacks the funds to fulfill its obligations, and if he doesn't get the money to start shipping those books soon he's going to either be going into debt, or he'll have to abandon/destroy the books. This is not looking like a success. So yeah, raising a million dollars doesn't prevent one from going broke. In fact, the appearance of success can be a trap.
Ding, ding, ding, ding...we have a winner. Just because they raised over one million really doesn't mean shite when the kickstarter was poorly run, then exacerbated by rising costs.
Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on August 11, 2022, 09:55:08 PM
Quote from: wmarshal on August 11, 2022, 08:41:24 PM
Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on August 11, 2022, 08:19:10 PM
I'll admit I'm a horrible person. Reading the news section of the site is so entertaining. In the latest they're seeking help with donating books and name dropped the dude that he was forced to fire. So people are crap, don't matter the color of your skin or if you're just like him. LOL
He's asking for help on the shipping costs for the donations when the pledge level stated Coyote and Crow would take care of that shipping. That would seem to violate the terms of the pledge, and reflects poor planning on his part. He would seem to now have about 5,000 books that he's paying storage for, but doesn't have the funds to ship. The Kickstarter is effectively broke because it lacks the funds to fulfill its obligations, and if he doesn't get the money to start shipping those books soon he's going to either be going into debt, or he'll have to abandon/destroy the books. This is not looking like a success. So yeah, raising a million dollars doesn't prevent one from going broke. In fact, the appearance of success can be a trap.
Ding, ding, ding, ding...we have a winner. Just because they raised over one million really doesn't mean shite when the kickstarter was poorly run, then exacerbated by rising costs.
—3,212 pledged $100 for 2 copies. 1 to the backer who'd pay the shipping cost for their copy, and the other copy to a reservation with CC taking on that shipping cost. If I'm generous his costs were 60% (he had a lot of people he paid to work on this, and in his Wokeness 1 of his pledge levels he said he'd make sure to pay them well) out of that $100, $60 went to production, $40 are left, but he has to pay shipping out of that $40. That's not just the cost of the postage, but the labor for someone to pack it, the mailer used to pack it, delivering all those to the post office, etc.
—947 pledged at $50 for donation of 1 book only. He has to cover the shipping for all those.
—6,496 pledged at $50 for 1 book, that leaves it up to the backer to decide if it's a donation or not. If it's being donated, again he has to eat the shipping.
He says he has about 5,000 donations (5,000 left? Was he able to send some of the donations, and he's down to the last 5,000?) Out of the above numbers it seems at least about 900 in that last category of 6,496 backers chose to donate, maybe more. I'm guessing there was a ton of guilt-ridden Woke white people that backed, but chose to donate the book for that sweet feeling of virtue. In doing so, they stuck him with the billing, and the Woke are wrecking his project due to their virtue-signaling. That could explain his bitter post where he begged/shamed white people to buy his book, and (this is important) put it on THEIR shelf. The last thing he needs now is another wave of Woke white people sending him money for books to be donated to a reservation. That's killing his business. His original guilt trip and shaming of whites has blown up in his face.
Greetings!
Whenever I get to the point of publishing a game book for my campaign world, I promise there is no sweet charity, no deep virtue signaling involved.
It is to get an interesting, fun game book.
And to make me money, so that I can build a dream of a filthy rich capitalist lifestyle. ;D
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: deadDMwalking on August 11, 2022, 03:53:53 PM
Hmm... I don't see how 'get woke go broke' still gets bandied about when the Kickstarter generated over $1 million in contributions.
I also don't think it's crazy to suggest buying a book/game that you may not play/read. I have several RPG books that I bought because I wanted to mine them for ideas more than I actually wanted to play them. And the fact that it offers A rule system that doesn't focus on violence as the first option for story resolution seems like exactly the kind of thing that is worth looking at in more detail.
The problem isn't in buying a game you won't play to mine it for ideas. That's fine, and I do it quite often. The problem is being told that you're a problem person if you don't buy it, so you should buy it and shelve it just to not be a problem person. In fact, any time a judgment call of what the customer "should do" is being thrown out, it's a really bad sign.
A couple items are apparent.
Anyone arguing these events are the actions of a growing and/or thriving company, has an agenda. Or they are, in fact, ignorant.
Anyone arguing that a non-violent 'first option' resolution system, coupled with simply buying the book yet not playing the game, are important parts of the equation leading to a growing and thriving company, doesn't understand the TTRPG industry. This hobby was started by people obsessively playing games, throwing funky dice, and caving in the faces of orcs, goblins, and evil sorcerers. Coyote and Crow needs people to play the game. And people need to have fun when they do.
Anyone who thinks one million dollars is a lot of money, given all of the obligations and people who had to be paid to send that many books out, doesn't understand money, business or both.
Quote from: FingerRod on August 12, 2022, 07:13:16 AM
Anyone who thinks one million dollars is a lot of money, given all of the obligations and people who had to be paid to send that many books out, doesn't understand money, business or both.
And how.
A business can blow through a million dollars pretty quickly. That's assuming everything is totally above board and legitimate and nobody makes a single mistake. If there were any mistakes at all at any point during the project (and there surely were, no team is perfect) this guy could very well be losing his ass.
I won't say too much in favor of this Woke racist jerk running CC, but at least he's not a Mike Nystul or Ken Whitman. And now I'm done.
Quote from: Valatar on August 05, 2022, 04:23:39 PM
The thing that gets me the most about the Aztecs is how impressed people are that they built a city and had a calendar, apparently not realizing that the timeframe for this was the 1400s-1500s. Rome was well ahead of them millennia earlier. The Notre Dame was constructed centuries before the Aztecs rose. The Arabs were publishing books on algebra hundreds of years prior. The Aztecs were not any flavor of technological powerhouse, the only thing remotely impressive was that they accomplished what they did in relative isolation, while Europe/Asia/Africa had communication and trade for advancements to more easily flourish.
Perhaps the more relevant point is that the MAYA did that, on the same continent, 1500+ years BEFORE the Aztecs.
In fact, I'm having trouble thinking of any technological or scientific innovation that the Aztecs came up with that the Mayans didn't also have. That means that in essence civilization in the Americas had been stagnant since around the peak period of the Mayan civilization circa 250AD.
Quote from: BronzeDragon on August 05, 2022, 08:29:04 PM
I think it's missing the point a little bit to call this a failure.
His KS did over a million dollars, so that's his sales floor. Do we have anyone here that would be able to estimate the production costs (the books seem to be in full color, pretty much something like industry standard quality in terms of paper, etc.)?
It's possible this guy has already walked away with a quarter of a million dollars just from the KS, and then further sales would be the cherry, rather than the sundae itself.
The tone of his post does seem a bit on the desperate side of cringe, so maybe the production costs were very high and the KS profits are way smaller than they appear to be...
I did an entire video about this, and was specifically thinking about cases like this game, and how KS that seem to make huge money often still don't.
The topic actually starts around 5:45
Finally, as to this guy's photo, I know many people who are treaty natives but don't look like what people assume natives to look like. I knew one guy who was a Canadian card carrying status "first nations" who had blonde hair, blue eyes and light skin.
That's not an issue per se. What IS an issue is this when matched with CRT and leftist Racialism. These people constantly attack me because I "don't look Latino". They claim I'm lying, that I'm not actually Latino at all (note: as someone pointed out earlier in the thread, if we want to get to the blood=ethnicity argument, someone can be a card-carrying Cherokee while only being 1/64th Cherokee blood; whereas I'm literally 50% Latino by birth), accuse me of cultural appropriation (note: I'm nearing my 20th year of living here, and I speak the language so well that it usually takes locals a very long time if at all to realize Spanish isn't my first language), etc., but then this guy who looks every bit as "white" as I do is given a free pass by the left to represent an entire continent's worth of people while accusing almost every gamer of being a racist while still demanding they buy his product.
It's the hypocrisy, stupid.
Quote from: RPGPundit on August 13, 2022, 06:03:32 PM
Quote from: Valatar on August 05, 2022, 04:23:39 PM
The thing that gets me the most about the Aztecs is how impressed people are that they built a city and had a calendar, apparently not realizing that the timeframe for this was the 1400s-1500s. Rome was well ahead of them millennia earlier. The Notre Dame was constructed centuries before the Aztecs rose. The Arabs were publishing books on algebra hundreds of years prior. The Aztecs were not any flavor of technological powerhouse, the only thing remotely impressive was that they accomplished what they did in relative isolation, while Europe/Asia/Africa had communication and trade for advancements to more easily flourish.
Perhaps the more relevant point is that the MAYA did that, on the same continent, 1500+ years BEFORE the Aztecs.
In fact, I'm having trouble thinking of any technological or scientific innovation that the Aztecs came up with that the Mayans didn't also have. That means that in essence civilization in the Americas had been stagnant since around the peak period of the Mayan civilization circa 250AD.
I think most civilizations advance only slowly, with occasional innovations mostly coming from trade. Key breakthroughs got passed around back and forth across Eurasia - like the compass and gunpowder from China, while in Mesoamerica, development all happened in isolation so it may seem slower but their steady progression seems roughly similar to incremental developments of civilizations in Eurasia.
I'm not very well read on developments from Maya to Aztec, but I'm more familiar with developments in Northern America as well as Andean civilization. There was development of more advanced agriculture, pottery, and weaving among the Andean civilizations from 250AD to 1500AD. In general, the agriculture of the Americas is responsible for many of the world's most popular crops - corn, potatoes, chocolate, peanuts, and many more.
In North America, there was a city in Poverty Point, Louisiana in 1700BC with a seven-story pyramid and surrounding city planning. There were dramatic changes from 250AD to 1500AD, as the Hopewell civilization arose, then a dark ages of sorts after its fall, then the rise of Mississippian culture with its cities, pyramids, corn, and religion. These advances spread into the Southeast and the Northeast in the period from 1200AD to 1500AD.
Quote from: wmarshal on August 11, 2022, 10:25:00 PM
Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on August 11, 2022, 09:55:08 PM
Quote from: wmarshal on August 11, 2022, 08:41:24 PM
Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on August 11, 2022, 08:19:10 PM
I'll admit I'm a horrible person. Reading the news section of the site is so entertaining. In the latest they're seeking help with donating books and name dropped the dude that he was forced to fire. So people are crap, don't matter the color of your skin or if you're just like him. LOL
He's asking for help on the shipping costs for the donations when the pledge level stated Coyote and Crow would take care of that shipping. That would seem to violate the terms of the pledge, and reflects poor planning on his part. He would seem to now have about 5,000 books that he's paying storage for, but doesn't have the funds to ship. The Kickstarter is effectively broke because it lacks the funds to fulfill its obligations, and if he doesn't get the money to start shipping those books soon he's going to either be going into debt, or he'll have to abandon/destroy the books. This is not looking like a success. So yeah, raising a million dollars doesn't prevent one from going broke. In fact, the appearance of success can be a trap.
Ding, ding, ding, ding...we have a winner. Just because they raised over one million really doesn't mean shite when the kickstarter was poorly run, then exacerbated by rising costs.
—3,212 pledged $100 for 2 copies. 1 to the backer who'd pay the shipping cost for their copy, and the other copy to a reservation with CC taking on that shipping cost. If I'm generous his costs were 60% (he had a lot of people he paid to work on this, and in his Wokeness 1 of his pledge levels he said he'd make sure to pay them well) out of that $100, $60 went to production, $40 are left, but he has to pay shipping out of that $40. That's not just the cost of the postage, but the labor for someone to pack it, the mailer used to pack it, delivering all those to the post office, etc.
—947 pledged at $50 for donation of 1 book only. He has to cover the shipping for all those.
—6,496 pledged at $50 for 1 book, that leaves it up to the backer to decide if it's a donation or not. If it's being donated, again he has to eat the shipping.
He says he has about 5,000 donations (5,000 left? Was he able to send some of the donations, and he's down to the last 5,000?) Out of the above numbers it seems at least about 900 in that last category of 6,496 backers chose to donate, maybe more. I'm guessing there was a ton of guilt-ridden Woke white people that backed, but chose to donate the book for that sweet feeling of virtue. In doing so, they stuck him with the billing, and the Woke are wrecking his project due to their virtue-signaling. That could explain his bitter post where he begged/shamed white people to buy his book, and (this is important) put it on THEIR shelf. The last thing he needs now is another wave of Woke white people sending him money for books to be donated to a reservation. That's killing his business. His original guilt trip and shaming of whites has blown up in his face.
This is what I was going on about earlier in the thread. Making 1 mil doesnt mean you get to keep it and sounds like these jokers somehow screwed the horse they rode in on and blew all or most of what they made. How?
Lets say each book costs 25$ to print. For 12000 books my quick estimate came to thats 300k.
Lets say shipping is on average 10$ each. More for some areas less for others. Thats another 120k.
Lets say 5000 donation books. There goes 175k
How many went to stores? Lets say another 5000. So another 175k
That is 650k gone right there and that might be a generous estimate depending on how much production and shipping really cost. And another 175k gone for every 5k more books.
If they are out of money then that suggests that production and shipping was more costly than my estimate. (Either that or they are scamming for more cash. Its a favored ploy of ponzi scheme publishers like Golden Bell.) And I know that at least one printer charges upwards of 40$ for a hardbound 300 page colour book. 30$ for a softbound. (My former printer used for my business could have gotten that done for alot less.) And that is not even getting into shipping costs.
Quote from: deadDMwalking on August 11, 2022, 03:53:53 PM
Hmm... I don't see how 'get woke go broke' still gets bandied about when the Kickstarter generated over $1 million in contributions.
I also don't think it's crazy to suggest buying a book/game that you may not play/read. I have several RPG books that I bought because I wanted to mine them for ideas more than I actually wanted to play them. And the fact that it offers A rule system that doesn't focus on violence as the first option for story resolution seems like exactly the kind of thing that is worth looking at in more detail.
You know how I know you work for someone and not yourself? Because you think 1 million dollars is a lot of money for a business to generate, at least in the context that they can't be broke if they generate 1 million. Gross and Net are very, very, very, very different words and things.
I understand that $1 million is not a lot in a business context, but I also understand that getting +$1million or losing $1million is a big enough sum of money to have repercussions, even for a business generating billions. Coyote and Crow is a small publisher. Generating $1 million is a huge amount of money for most small publishers, especially for their first product.
I read the posts by the founder about how playing a Native character is not cultural appropriation in the context of the game. I'm CONFIDENT that nobody that posts regularly on these boards believes that playing a Native character is Coyote and Crow qualifies as unacceptable cultural appropriation - I doubt most people here even think that's POSSIBLE. So when the founder says playing this game doesn't count as cultural appropriation, I agree. Does anyone here really disagree? Really?
I don't know if Connor Alexander 100% committed to leaving all other work and surviving on his RGP writing credits, but even if he did and he can't survive EXCLUSIVELY on that, I wouldn't consider this a failure. He's produced a book; there are at least 16,000 people that had a chance to experience his creative work. There are more than that discussing the product and having conversations about the play space and products. Generally, I'm in favor of more product availability - while I don't expect every product to appeal to every consumer, more choices mean that there is more for each individual consumer, including the possibility of someone's new favorite game.
In that context, there's nothing wrong with Coyote and Crow. Going bankrupt isn't always the end (if that's even happening). It happened for TSR, too. It's hard to think of D&D as anything other than a 'success'.
Does someone want to help me understand what game(s) you're comparing it to that count as a success?
Connor Alexander created a product that represents his passions. He was able to create the project on his terms with the creative content producers he wanted to work with. The product was created, it has been delivered into the hands of the people that asked for it. His company (even if short of funds, and that's a big if) still exists and can still try to create additional product.
Maybe my standards of success are too low, but that all sounds like something I could be proud of.
Quote from: deadDMwalking on August 15, 2022, 11:43:16 AM
I understand that $1 million is not a lot in a business context, but I also understand that getting +$1million or losing $1million is a big enough sum of money to have repercussions, even for a business generating billions. Coyote and Crow is a small publisher. Generating $1 million is a huge amount of money for most small publishers, especially for their first product.
Quite a few KS have made that much or more. Its not as big a deal as you are trying to make it out to be. Even half that can be hit with a little thought.
And more than a few of these big bucks KS also fail to ship. Some are flat out scams. Others were grossly incompetent. And a rare few were just tripped up by an unforeseen extra cost.
As for "not appropriation" that hilarious you are defending it when these same sorts will turn right around and attack someone else for doing the same thing. Only respectfully instead of this hateful trash.
But sure. Run with those goal posts.
Quote from: jhkim on August 14, 2022, 12:05:55 AMI'm not very well read on developments from Maya to Aztec, but I'm more familiar with developments in Northern America as well as Andean civilization.
The key thing to realize about the Mayan and Aztec is that the Mayans suffered an economic collapse from around 700 to 900 AD where much of their culture (and knowledge of writing) was lost. The Aztec didn't show up until hundreds of years later so they were less advanced. So when the Spaniards arrived, they weren't dealing with the A-Team and so many of the local people hated the Aztecs that the Spaniards quickly found many allies.
There are a few recorded instances of Spaniards discovering intact, fully functioning Mayan cities. But these weren't the massive multi-city empires that existed before.
Quote from: deadDMwalking on August 15, 2022, 11:43:16 AMI read the posts by the founder about how playing a Native character is not cultural appropriation in the context of the game. I'm CONFIDENT that nobody that posts regularly on these boards believes that playing a Native character is Coyote and Crow qualifies as unacceptable cultural appropriation - I doubt most people here even think that's POSSIBLE. So when the founder says playing this game doesn't count as cultural appropriation, I agree. Does anyone here really disagree? Really?
Didn't a YouTuber have to apologize just last year for role-playing a pre-generated Asian character in a live stream?
And this wasn't a one-time things. Here's an article from February of this year condemning Critical Role for setting a campaign in north Africa
https://www.kotaku.com.au/2022/02/the-problem-with-critical-roles-latest-campaign/
Just because the people here don't think that it is cultural appropriation for white people to play non-white characters doesn't mean that no one thinks this. Funny how the rules have suddenly changed now that a woke RPG is losing money.
Quote from: Omega on August 15, 2022, 12:01:30 PM
Quote from: deadDMwalking on August 15, 2022, 11:43:16 AM
I understand that $1 million is not a lot in a business context, but I also understand that getting +$1million or losing $1million is a big enough sum of money to have repercussions, even for a business generating billions. Coyote and Crow is a small publisher. Generating $1 million is a huge amount of money for most small publishers, especially for their first product.
Quite a few KS have made that much or more. Its not as big a deal as you are trying to make it out to be. Even half that can be hit with a little thought.
In point of fact, only 220 Tabletop Games have generated more than $1 million on Kickstarter. This includes things like the Reaper Bones miniature kickstarters. I think, charitably, you could say that there are 5 RPGs that generated more than $1 million, including Coyote & Crow. Since it is such a small number, I think I'll list the ones that I think qualify so you can let me know if I missed any, or whether you don't think these are relevant:
Avatar Legends: The Roleplaying Game ($9.5 Million)
Old Gods of Appalachia Roleplaying Game ($2 Million) - Monte Cook
Blade Runner the RPG (~$1.5 Million - it's in Krona)
The One Ring RPG (~$1.5 Million - it's in Krona)
So while $1 million is a relatively arbitrary number, it's clear that raising more than $1 million is not an easily accomplished feat. I think Coyote & Crow should be justifiably proud of having hit this milestone.
Quote from: Omega on August 15, 2022, 12:01:30 PM
And more than a few of these big bucks KS also fail to ship. Some are flat out scams. Others were grossly incompetent. And a rare few were just tripped up by an unforeseen extra cost.
Right, so raising $1 million
and shipping product is a success compared to a lot of others that didn't deliver.
Quote from: Omega on August 15, 2022, 12:01:30 PM
As for "not appropriation" that hilarious you are defending it when these same sorts will turn right around and attack someone else for doing the same thing. Only respectfully instead of this hateful trash.
So you agree that playing this game doesn't qualify as cultural appropriation? I'm not worried about people calling me mean names on the interwebs. Are you?
The premise of ... In the 1200s a Great Black Death wipes out all of Europe and England happens instead of just one third of the population is an interesting premise...
The evolution of the world would have been both drastically different yet maybe not so different as we would think. Just because "white" people are wiped out doesn't mean the rest of the world would sing kumbaya and got along. There would still be wats between cultures of differing belief systems, especially between the Muslim, African and Asian peoples. If Genghis Khan is still around than he would have spread his empire as far as possible. The South American people might have been the ones to spread northward up to North America. And the thousands of years of infighting between the many hundreds of native Americans tribal nations wouldn't have stopped fighting.
Most likely a different expansionist culture would have invaded North America. They wouldn't have been white, but they would have still expanded and settled. Colonialism has never been just a white people thing. It's been happening for thousands of years.
The designers of Coyote & Crow are just that ignorant of history and their own people and the possible repercussions of what would happen in an alternate history of a wiped out 12th century Europe. Guarantee some group of people would have expanded into Europe in time. More wars would have been fought.
I predict in this alternate world either the Aztecs or a Khan ruled China would have invaded North America for it's resources. But that's just one possibility.
Quote from: RebelSky on August 15, 2022, 01:27:20 PM
The premise of ... In the 1200s a Great Black Death wipes out all of Europe and England happens instead of just one third of the population is an interesting premise...
The evolution of the world would have been both drastically different yet maybe not so different as we would think. Just because "white" people are wiped out doesn't mean the rest of the world would sing kumbaya and got along. There would still be wats between cultures of differing belief systems, especially between the Muslim, African and Asian peoples. If Genghis Khan is still around than he would have spread his empire as far as possible. The South American people might have been the ones to spread northward up to North America. And the thousands of years of infighting between the many hundreds of native Americans tribal nations wouldn't have stopped fighting.
Most likely a different expansionist culture would have invaded North America. They wouldn't have been white, but they would have still expanded and settled. Colonialism has never been just a white people thing. It's been happening for thousands of years.
The designers of Coyote & Crow are just that ignorant of history and their own people and the possible repercussions of what would happen in an alternate history of a wiped out 12th century Europe. Guarantee some group of people would have expanded into Europe in time. More wars would have been fought.
I predict in this alternate world either the Aztecs or a Khan ruled China would have invaded North America for it's resources. But that's just one possibility.
Yes, this, exactly. Sigh. The premise of the game just shows a complete lack of historical understanding. The game is, and always will be, racist.
Quote from: RebelSky on August 15, 2022, 01:27:20 PM
The premise of ... In the 1200s a Great Black Death wipes out all of Europe and England happens instead of just one third of the population is an interesting premise...
The evolution of the world would have been both drastically different yet maybe not so different as we would think. Just because "white" people are wiped out doesn't mean the rest of the world would sing kumbaya and got along. There would still be wats between cultures of differing belief systems, especially between the Muslim, African and Asian peoples. If Genghis Khan is still around than he would have spread his empire as far as possible. The South American people might have been the ones to spread northward up to North America. And the thousands of years of infighting between the many hundreds of native Americans tribal nations wouldn't have stopped fighting.
Most likely a different expansionist culture would have invaded North America. They wouldn't have been white, but they would have still expanded and settled. Colonialism has never been just a white people thing. It's been happening for thousands of years.
The designers of Coyote & Crow are just that ignorant of history and their own people and the possible repercussions of what would happen in an alternate history of a wiped out 12th century Europe. Guarantee some group of people would have expanded into Europe in time. More wars would have been fought.
I predict in this alternate world either the Aztecs or a Khan ruled China would have invaded North America for it's resources. But that's just one possibility.
You're almsot 100% spot on. where you miss something is where you blame it all in ignorance (don't get me wrong they ARE ignorant) but their conclusion that no huwhites means world peace and all people's singing cumbaya is due to racism.
They hate white people.
As for the more likely to replace the Europeans in conquering the Americas my money is on the Muslims, they were seafaring people, unlike the Mongols that when they tried (twice) got their fleet wrecked by storms and never tried again.
They also had better maths than the more oriental people or than those of Africa. Important to calculate courses and to postulate earth wasn't flat. Plus they were traders unlike the Chinese who were more insular due to their constant wars with the Mongols, plus the distance.
Maybe the people from present Russia if they colonized their lands closest to the continent, since you CAN see Alaska from parts of Russia.
Quote from: deadDMwalking on August 15, 2022, 11:43:16 AM
I understand that $1 million is not a lot in a business context, but I also understand that getting +$1million or losing $1million is a big enough sum of money to have repercussions, even for a business generating billions. Coyote and Crow is a small publisher. Generating $1 million is a huge amount of money for most small publishers, especially for their first product.
I read the posts by the founder about how playing a Native character is not cultural appropriation in the context of the game. I'm CONFIDENT that nobody that posts regularly on these boards believes that playing a Native character is Coyote and Crow qualifies as unacceptable cultural appropriation - I doubt most people here even think that's POSSIBLE. So when the founder says playing this game doesn't count as cultural appropriation, I agree. Does anyone here really disagree? Really?
I don't know if Connor Alexander 100% committed to leaving all other work and surviving on his RGP writing credits, but even if he did and he can't survive EXCLUSIVELY on that, I wouldn't consider this a failure. He's produced a book; there are at least 16,000 people that had a chance to experience his creative work. There are more than that discussing the product and having conversations about the play space and products. Generally, I'm in favor of more product availability - while I don't expect every product to appeal to every consumer, more choices mean that there is more for each individual consumer, including the possibility of someone's new favorite game.
In that context, there's nothing wrong with Coyote and Crow. Going bankrupt isn't always the end (if that's even happening). It happened for TSR, too. It's hard to think of D&D as anything other than a 'success'.
Does someone want to help me understand what game(s) you're comparing it to that count as a success?
Connor Alexander created a product that represents his passions. He was able to create the project on his terms with the creative content producers he wanted to work with. The product was created, it has been delivered into the hands of the people that asked for it. His company (even if short of funds, and that's a big if) still exists and can still try to create additional product.
Maybe my standards of success are too low, but that all sounds like something I could be proud of.
Sorry but I'm not a racist so about as interested in this as I am of MYFAROG (despite being a fan of early Burzum), i.e. not al all.
Quote from: RebelSky on August 15, 2022, 01:27:20 PM
... The South American people might have been the ones to spread northward up to North America. And the thousands of years of infighting between the many hundreds of native Americans tribal nations wouldn't have stopped fighting.
Correction: the South Americans would have spread northward
down to North America.
The setting, for whatever reason, flips the map of North America so that north is down and south is up. Maybe this is to give the game map a more "exotic" look, but to me it is reminiscent of commie larpers with their upside down American flags breaking windows and burning cars. I don't know what the actual motivation for the map flip was, I'm just pointing out what it looks like.
Quote from: Effete on August 15, 2022, 02:18:19 PM
Quote from: RebelSky on August 15, 2022, 01:27:20 PM
... The South American people might have been the ones to spread northward up to North America. And the thousands of years of infighting between the many hundreds of native Americans tribal nations wouldn't have stopped fighting.
Correction: the South Americans would have spread northward down to North America.
The setting, for whatever reason, flips the map of North America so that north is down and south is up. Maybe this is to give the game map a more "exotic" look, but to me it is reminiscent of commie larpers with their upside down American flags breaking windows and burning cars. I don't know what the actual motivation for the map flip was, I'm just pointing out what it looks like.
I didn't pay attention to the map. My cursory glance through the book at my FLGS stopped me where the moral authority was telling us all about how we can't refer to ourselves using the native American terms that they are allowed to use, even though our characters would use that language.
Quote from: RebelSky on August 15, 2022, 03:04:30 PM
I didn't pay attention to the map. My cursory glance through the book at my FLGS stopped me where the moral authority was telling us all about how we can't refer to ourselves using the native American terms that they are allowed to use, even though our characters would use that language.
Someone's trying to get a Coyote & Crow PbP game started over on RPGX. I'd be interested to see if it:
a) even gets off the ground, and
b) lasts more than a month.
I'll probably read along just to see how the material is being handled.
Quote from: Effete on August 15, 2022, 02:18:19 PMThe setting, for whatever reason, flips the map of North America so that north is down and south is up. Maybe this is to give the game map a more "exotic" look, but to me it is reminiscent of commie larpers with their upside down American flags breaking windows and burning cars. I don't know what the actual motivation for the map flip was, I'm just pointing out what it looks like.
From wikipedia:
"Cultural diversity and media literacy educators use south-up oriented world maps to help students viscerally experience the frequently disorienting effect of seeing something familiar from a different perspective. Having students consider the privileged position given to the Northern hemisphere (especially Europe and North America) on most world maps can help students confront their more general potential for culturally biased perceptions."The logic is that Europeans are rich because they live on the good, i.e. upper, portion of the map.
Quote from: RebelSky on August 15, 2022, 01:27:20 PM
The premise of ... In the 1200s a Great Black Death wipes out all of Europe and England happens instead of just one third of the population is an interesting premise...
RebelSky,
You might like
The Years of Rice and Salt by Kim Robinson, since that is the exact premise of the (very long) novel. It starts after the Black Plague takes a more deadly turn and wipes out Europe, and ends with the discovery of the atom bomb. Robinson has a slightly different outcome from your scenario. The world is run by four major empires:
- The Chinese, who colonize Japan and the western coast of America,
- The Caliphate, who conquer all of Europe and colonize the east coast of America,
- The Haudenosaunee (Native Americans) who unite all of the tribes in America and don't get totally screwed over,
- The Indians, probably the best of the four, since they revere science and have a quasi-democracy.
At first I thought the book was going to be a Woke fantasy, until you realize that even without the Evil White Man, there is still racism, sexism, homophobia, colonizing, capitalism, fundamentalism, crime, poverty, pollution, police states... the world is pretty much as it is today, a mix of good and bad, success and failure. Humanity is still humanity.
Quote from: hedgehobbit on August 15, 2022, 08:21:52 PM
Quote from: Effete on August 15, 2022, 02:18:19 PMThe setting, for whatever reason, flips the map of North America so that north is down and south is up. Maybe this is to give the game map a more "exotic" look, but to me it is reminiscent of commie larpers with their upside down American flags breaking windows and burning cars. I don't know what the actual motivation for the map flip was, I'm just pointing out what it looks like.
From wikipedia:
"Cultural diversity and media literacy educators use south-up oriented world maps to help students viscerally experience the frequently disorienting effect of seeing something familiar from a different perspective. Having students consider the privileged position given to the Northern hemisphere (especially Europe and North America) on most world maps can help students confront their more general potential for culturally biased perceptions."
The logic is that Europeans are rich because they live on the good, i.e. upper, portion of the map.
Yep, which is magic thinking of the "ju ju of the mountain" kind.
Just saw about a dozen copies of Coyote & Crow on the shelf of a book/game store in Stockholm. I asked how it was selling and the guy said "we had 20 to start." I don't think the Swedes are big on white guilt, but somehow it's selling here.
Quote from: deadDMwalking on August 15, 2022, 11:43:16 AM
I read the posts by the founder about how playing a Native character is not cultural appropriation in the context of the game. I'm CONFIDENT that nobody that posts regularly on these boards believes that playing a Native character is Coyote and Crow qualifies as unacceptable cultural appropriation - I doubt most people here even think that's POSSIBLE. So when the founder says playing this game doesn't count as cultural appropriation, I agree. Does anyone here really disagree? Really?
What people who post here regularly believe is irrelevant. The people who designed this game and the people that it's primarily marketed to believe in CuLtUrAl ApPrOpRiAtIoN. That those of us who will never play it have zero issue playing Native Americans or people from other cultures doesn't matter. What matters is that the people this game is marketed to have been indoctrinated into believing there's something wrong with playing characters from other cultures, or that touching upon certain cultural artifacts (such as certain symbols or terminology) requires special permissions or ritualistic procedures, which is why the creator is in their current predicament.
That those of us who post here regularly know better is irrelevant. This game wasn't marketed at us. If anything we were told not to play it. Maybe if they didn't devote so much effort to chastising people for even eating food from other cultures (multiple small businesses have been forced to shut down after woke mobs accused them of "stealing" from other cultures) they wouldn't have so much trouble getting evil huwhite men to play their game.
I just think that this doesn't fit into the 'get woke, go broke' narrative that's so popular around here. First off, a company that makes a product is going to promote the product. Asking people to buy their product is normal. Specifically reassuring people that were afraid that buying/using this product might be deemed as cultural appropriation that it isn't seems like a good way of 'addressing objections'. If you're in sales you should be familiar with that. And whether that's another 10 sales or 100 sales or 10,000 sales doesn't really matter - promoting your product and overcoming objectives is still something that businesses ought to do.
So, wanting more sales isn't an indication of 'failing'. Even businesses that are successful (including Apple, the largest company in the world by market cap) promotes products and addresses objections.
Trying to appeal to a wider demographic isn't a sign of 'failing', either. Lots of companies (https://www.qualitylogoproducts.com/blog/brands-shifting-target-markets/) change their target market, or make efforts to target a specific market segment that they don't think they're reaching.
From where I'm sitting, this looks like an extraordinary success for a new company launching a new product in a niche industry without an established IP (like Avatar, or Robotech).
Maybe it would help if someone would bracket this with a product that is 'just a little more successful' and a product that is 'just a little less successful' so we can place it on that spectrum.
In any case, if the people that are most likely to buy this game are afraid of cultural appropriation, reassuring them is what any reasonable company would take steps to do. Right?
Greetings!
You know, people need to really jackhammer these people that blubber on and screech about "Cultural Appropriation". Just absolutely mock them, and crush them.
People that embrace such an ideology of "Cultural Appropriation" are sad, pathetic, morons. Most likely scheming, greedy, manipulative demagogues and grifting charlatans, as well. The entire ideological concept is culturally, mentally, and socially incoherent. Such a pernicious ideology is also a vehicle in which these racist demagogues and charlatans seek to create and sow racial division and strife, all cloaked in the language and emotionalism of being a constant oppressed victim. All of that is then wrapped up, of course, typically with more calls and demands that reward one group politically, socially, and financially--at the expense of other groups.
People and cultures throughout the world routinely and historically share virtually all aspects of their culture with others. Exchanging, promoting, and otherwise embracing music, clothing, food, tools, styles, intellectual concepts, business concepts, items and goods of every kind and aspect. Which are then mangled, celebrated, modified, and used, both by themselves, and everyone else.
"Cultural Appropriation" demagogues should be entirely rejected as the racist scum and evil grifters and charlatans that they are.
This is yet another reason to mock and reject Coyote & Crow, and its author.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: HappyDaze on August 16, 2022, 11:41:07 AM
Just saw about a dozen copies of Coyote & Crow on the shelf of a book/game store in Stockholm. I asked how it was selling and the guy said "we had 20 to start." I don't think the Swedes are big on white guilt, but somehow it's selling here.
Followup question to ask is "When did you get your shipment in?" If it's been a year and it's only sold 10 that's a horrible ROI
Mork Borg and Mothership both had much much smaller starts. You cannot scroll past five items currently on KS and not find a product designed to be used with one of those systems. Their business models work.
Morg Borg dipped into the death metal/horror/strange with the body horror of LotFP dialed down. They found a market and is probably the it product in the branch of the OSR that does not tie back to the classics.
Mothership gave away their rules system for free, for years, while kickstarting three very good supplements to build up a base. THEN they launched into a million dollar KS with their box set release.
And then there was C&C.
All three are red companies. I will not do business with any of them. But, unlike you leftest twats, I can call balls and strikes. C&C had a flawed model from the start. They way they attacked people, and now their fan base is a fail. Not being able to fulfill their pledges for book donations is a disgrace. On and on. These are not the behaviors of successful companies.
Quote from: deadDMwalking on August 16, 2022, 12:35:59 PM
I just think that this doesn't fit into the 'get woke, go broke' narrative that's so popular around here. First off, a company that makes a product is going to promote the product. Asking people to buy their product is normal. Specifically reassuring people that were afraid that buying/using this product might be deemed as cultural appropriation that it isn't seems like a good way of 'addressing objections'. If you're in sales you should be familiar with that. And whether that's another 10 sales or 100 sales or 10,000 sales doesn't really matter - promoting your product and overcoming objectives is still something that businesses ought to do.
So, wanting more sales isn't an indication of 'failing'. Even businesses that are successful (including Apple, the largest company in the world by market cap) promotes products and addresses objections.
Trying to appeal to a wider demographic isn't a sign of 'failing', either. Lots of companies (https://www.qualitylogoproducts.com/blog/brands-shifting-target-markets/) change their target market, or make efforts to target a specific market segment that they don't think they're reaching.
From where I'm sitting, this looks like an extraordinary success for a new company launching a new product in a niche industry without an established IP (like Avatar, or Robotech).
Maybe it would help if someone would bracket this with a product that is 'just a little more successful' and a product that is 'just a little less successful' so we can place it on that spectrum.
In any case, if the people that are most likely to buy this game are afraid of cultural appropriation, reassuring them is what any reasonable company would take steps to do. Right?
Except that the people involved didn't really learn nor are trying to correct anything, but are rather gaslighting the victims of their ideological mindfuck by trying to convince them that they're in wrong for being such racist nitwits that they aren't playing their game, after being consistently told they'd be racist if they did play it (or at least, if they played characters from other ethnicities, as playing this game would require them to do). So it's really damned if you do, damned if you don't, without really acknowledging that's what's actually going on. And condescendingly treating them like morons to boot.
This guy (the creator of this game) is truly deserving of going broke (and much more) after scraping 1mil from this Kickstarter, then apparently squandering all that money, and now treating his costumers like shit for not doing enough. The level of entitled condescension is off the charts. He obviously got lucky pulling 1mil first time around, and now the guy lacks the tact to weasel whatever he needs to finish fulfillment and get people to actually play his game. He's not being a salesman, he's mad people aren't giving him what he feels entitled to and chastising them for not being good enough "allies".
Quote from: THE_Leopold on August 16, 2022, 01:36:30 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on August 16, 2022, 11:41:07 AM
Just saw about a dozen copies of Coyote & Crow on the shelf of a book/game store in Stockholm. I asked how it was selling and the guy said "we had 20 to start." I don't think the Swedes are big on white guilt, but somehow it's selling here.
Followup question to ask is "When did you get your shipment in?" If it's been a year and it's only sold 10 that's a horrible ROI
I didnt ask, but it was on their new releases rack alongside other titles that have been out for about a month or so (e.g., Horned Rat book for WFRP 4e & compqnion for same, the wilderness book for L5R 5e)..
Quote from: VisionStorm on August 16, 2022, 01:56:37 PM
Except that the people involved didn't really learn nor are trying to correct anything, but are rather gaslighting the victims of their ideological mindfuck by trying to convince them that they're in wrong for being such racist nitwits that they aren't playing their game, after being consistently told they'd be racist if they did play it (or at least, if they played characters from other ethnicities, as playing this game would require them to do). So it's really damned if you do, damned if you don't, without really acknowledging that's what's actually going on. And condescendingly treating them like morons to boot.
This guy (the creator of this game) is truly deserving of going broke (and much more) after scraping 1mil from this Kickstarter, then apparently squandering all that money, and now treating his costumers like shit for not doing enough. The level of entitled condescension is off the charts. He obviously got lucky pulling 1mil first time around, and now the guy lacks the tact to weasel whatever he needs to finish fulfillment and get people to actually play his game. He's not being a salesman, he's mad people aren't giving him what he feels entitled to and chastising them for not being good enough "allies".
I don't know how you read that tone, that's not what I get at all. While I'm not Native American, I am aware of negative stereotypes that have been perpetuated in popular media. I can see how pretending that saying 'HOW' is a universal greeting is offensive to many Native Americans - and I've heard them tell me that directly. Directly imitating an ethnic group, especially in a form of caricature, is often offensive. For examples of this type of thing, see
Breakfast at Tiffany's and the portrayal of the Japanese neighbor.
Telling people how to respectfully incorporate other cultures into a game without parodying or creating a caricature is helpful advice. Some people won't care, but for those that do, there's nothing wrong with providing it.
As for the
Most Recent Update (https://coyote-and-crow.backerkit.com/hosted_preorders/project_updates) - it looks like the donations are going to go out, but possibly not in as timely a fashion as the founder hoped. For 'free books', I don't think there was any expectation that they MUST be delivered by a particular time. He has 5000 books to donate, and he needs to find organizations that want the books. I think he'll be successful, it'll just take some time.
Quote from: deadDMwalking on August 16, 2022, 12:35:59 PM
I just think that this doesn't fit into the 'get woke, go broke' narrative that's so popular around here. First off, a company that makes a product is going to promote the product. Asking people to buy their product is normal. Specifically reassuring people that were afraid that buying/using this product might be deemed as cultural appropriation that it isn't seems like a good way of 'addressing objections'. If you're in sales you should be familiar with that. And whether that's another 10 sales or 100 sales or 10,000 sales doesn't really matter - promoting your product and overcoming objectives is still something that businesses ought to do.
...
In any case, if the people that are most likely to buy this game are afraid of cultural appropriation, reassuring them is what any reasonable company would take steps to do. Right?
Correct. But the issue here is that Coyote & Crow wants it both ways.
Forget for a moment that the woke ideology in general dissuades people from playing anything outside their genetic wheelhouse. This Connor guy writes a fairly condescending blog post criticising white people for not buying his game (he doesn't even care if they like it or play it; he just wants them to buy it and stick it on the shelf). All the while, the book itself has pages of "rules" for how white gamers aren't allowed to use indigenous terms or change/insert the cultures presented in the book. But gamers with magic blood are perfectedly allowed to do so.
So basically, white people can play the game, but only within a strict set of guidelines. That's kinda like saying: you can drink water, just from a different fountain.
As for the success of the company, all indications point to it hemorrhaging money. I don't think that has as much to do with wokeness as it does with incompetence.
Quote from: Effete on August 16, 2022, 02:46:33 PM
But the issue here is that Coyote & Crow wants it both ways.
Forget for a moment that the woke ideology in general dissuades people from playing anything outside their genetic wheelhouse. This Connor guy writes a fairly condescending blog post criticising white people for not buying his game (he doesn't even care if they like it or play it; he just wants them to buy it and stick it on the shelf). All the while, the book itself has pages of "rules" for how white gamers aren't allowed to use indigenous terms or change/insert the cultures presented in the book. But gamers with magic blood are perfectedly allowed to do so.
So basically, white people can play the game, but only within a strict set of guidelines. That's kinda like saying: you can drink water, just from a different fountain.
I feel like his point flew over your head. Keeping in mind that anyone can ignore rules they don't like at any time, he can't make you observe those 'rules'. But there's still good reason to have them. His rules basically come down to 'how not to be an insensitive jerk'. Maybe you've been studying the Cherokee language and you're well-versed in the culture and you can respectfully incorporate elements of that culture into your character - but whether your portrayal is accurate and respectful comes down to a matter of opinion, and members of that culture really get the final say. It's okay if you don't understand why blackface is offensive, but it's not okay to dress in blackface. Using an imaginary culture and imaginary language removes some of the onus of potentially representing a real culture very negatively. His advice didn't tell Cherokee to pretend to be Crow, or for Comanche to pretend to be Deleware - but if you want to represent part of your cultural heritage in your character, you're encouraged to do so. That advice works for white players, too. Incorporating someone else's culture can be insensitive/demeaning, but if you want to incorporate part of YOUR culture, you absolutely can.
To the degree that your cultural heritage is one fountain and someone else's cultural heritage is another fountain, sure, you're drawing on different resources to enrich the game.
Quote from: Effete on August 16, 2022, 02:46:33 PM
As for the success of the company, all indications point to it hemorrhaging money. I don't think that has as much to do with wokeness as it does with incompetence.
I think that any business is likely to have 'growing pains'. There are things that you expect, they're part of your business plan, and everything goes the way you thought it would - those things are great. But there are also the things that you didn't expect, or they didn't go the way you thought, and now you have a problem that requires changes to the way your business functions. Sometimes businesses don't grow and adapt to handle new challenges, but sometimes they do. Saying that things can be hard doesn't mean that people are incompetent.
Connor appears to have 5,000 books that are paid for but haven't been allocated to any specific individual or organization, yet. Finding organizations that are interested in those books and getting the delivered is a bigger challenge than doing so for 50. But because these books aren't allocated, nobody is
negatively impacted by these challenges. If you're someone that paid for a free book for someone, I suppose there's a chance that you'll be upset that it wasn't delivered 4 months ago. But as someone who has donated gaming product to soldiers overseas, I personally think they'd want their donation to go to someone that will benefit from it. And that takes time with this type of quantity.
I haven't heard of anyone that ordered product not getting it. I haven't heard of any artists or creators not getting paid. I haven't seen any issues with production quality or failure to meet obligations.
I'm not big into sci-fi games generally. But I am interested in supporting artists that I like. Making Coyote & Crow a success supports (primarily Native American) artists involved in the creation. That's not going to be a motivation for everyone to buy the game; in fact you could commission art directly from the same artists and support those you like best. But even if the product is not one that you are going to use for yourself or your friend group, supporting the art is sometimes worthwhile. I like Kenzer & Co, so I bought Aces & Eights and I've never played it (outside of a convention quick start that didn't even use the books). Buying product from a company that you like is something most of us do at one time or another and easily justify it. Buying $2,000 a year of Reaper Minis I'm not going to get around to painting is probably foolish, but I can afford it and it's nice to know that the company will still be around when I hopefully do have the time to paint it. If Coyote & Crow is making a nice product and you believe in the company, buying their product now (even if it sits on your shelf for some time) isn't really crazy - it's an investment that may not pay off, but you might also be helping to launch the next TSR or Chaosium.
Quote from: deadDMwalking on August 16, 2022, 02:34:34 PM
Quote from: VisionStorm on August 16, 2022, 01:56:37 PM
Except that the people involved didn't really learn nor are trying to correct anything, but are rather gaslighting the victims of their ideological mindfuck by trying to convince them that they're in wrong for being such racist nitwits that they aren't playing their game, after being consistently told they'd be racist if they did play it (or at least, if they played characters from other ethnicities, as playing this game would require them to do). So it's really damned if you do, damned if you don't, without really acknowledging that's what's actually going on. And condescendingly treating them like morons to boot.
This guy (the creator of this game) is truly deserving of going broke (and much more) after scraping 1mil from this Kickstarter, then apparently squandering all that money, and now treating his costumers like shit for not doing enough. The level of entitled condescension is off the charts. He obviously got lucky pulling 1mil first time around, and now the guy lacks the tact to weasel whatever he needs to finish fulfillment and get people to actually play his game. He's not being a salesman, he's mad people aren't giving him what he feels entitled to and chastising them for not being good enough "allies".
I don't know how you read that tone, that's not what I get at all. While I'm not Native American, I am aware of negative stereotypes that have been perpetuated in popular media. I can see how pretending that saying 'HOW' is a universal greeting is offensive to many Native Americans - and I've heard them tell me that directly. Directly imitating an ethnic group, especially in a form of caricature, is often offensive. For examples of this type of thing, see Breakfast at Tiffany's and the portrayal of the Japanese neighbor.
Telling people how to respectfully incorporate other cultures into a game without parodying or creating a caricature is helpful advice. Some people won't care, but for those that do, there's nothing wrong with providing it.
As for the
Most Recent Update (https://coyote-and-crow.backerkit.com/hosted_preorders/project_updates) - it looks like the donations are going to go out, but possibly not in as timely a fashion as the founder hoped. For 'free books', I don't think there was any expectation that they MUST be delivered by a particular time. He has 5000 books to donate, and he needs to find organizations that want the books. I think he'll be successful, it'll just take some time.
"If someone tells me that I've hurt their feelings, I say, 'I'm still waiting to hear what your point is.'
In this country, I've been told, 'That's offensive' as if those two words constitute an argument or a comment. Not to me they don't.
And I'm not running for anything, so I don't have to pretend to like people when I don't."
― Christopher Hitchens
Who cares if someone MIGHT find it offensive how someone else plays a "native american" at their table?
Do those same people care if a white person finds it offensive how they portray rednecks?
The answer to those is : No one should care and no, they don't. Fuck their fee fees.
@GeekyBugle
If you live your life without caring about other people's feelings, that's a choice you're free to make. Likewise, when people insult your mother you're free to choose not to take offense. But certainly you can agree that some statements are meant to insult and generate offense? Like when the Klingon told Scotty "I didn't mean to say that the Enterprise should be hauling garbage. I meant to say that it should be hauled away AS garbage!" it was intended to provoke a fight.
Some people create racist caricatures in the same manner. You don't have to get offended - you don't even have to care. But actions have consequences and some people will choose not to hang out with you if you persist in behaviors that are designed to provoke - they're INTENDED to be offensive.
You can learn a lot from roleplaying games. One of the ways you do that is by imagining yourself in a different situation, with different abilities and a different perspective. Some people have an interest in learning that in a way that is respectful and NOT intended to be offensive. There's room for a game like Coyote and Crow. Nobody says you HAVE to play it. But trying to AVOID causing undue offense is certainly not problematic.
It's just a really strange vibe that people here are pretending to be offended because [something something racial something identity politics] when people here don't believe in that.
I'm not vegetarian, but I know some people are. It's strange to me that people get offended when Cracker Barrel adds 'impossible sausage' to the menu. I wasn't planning on ordering it, but having it on the menu makes it that much easier to bring my vegetarian friends there.
Quote from: deadDMwalking on August 16, 2022, 04:51:47 PM
@GeekyBugle
If you live your life without caring about other people's feelings, that's a choice you're free to make. Likewise, when people insult your mother you're free to choose not to take offense. But certainly you can agree that some statements are meant to insult and generate offense? Like when the Klingon told Scotty "I didn't mean to say that the Enterprise should be hauling garbage. I meant to say that it should be hauled away AS garbage!" it was intended to provoke a fight.
Some people create racist caricatures in the same manner. You don't have to get offended - you don't even have to care. But actions have consequences and some people will choose not to hang out with you if you persist in behaviors that are designed to provoke - they're INTENDED to be offensive.
You can learn a lot from roleplaying games. One of the ways you do that is by imagining yourself in a different situation, with different abilities and a different perspective. Some people have an interest in learning that in a way that is respectful and NOT intended to be offensive. There's room for a game like Coyote and Crow. Nobody says you HAVE to play it. But trying to AVOID causing undue offense is certainly not problematic.
It's just a really strange vibe that people here are pretending to be offended because [something something racial something identity politics] when people here don't believe in that.
I'm not vegetarian, but I know some people are. It's strange to me that people get offended when Cracker Barrel adds 'impossible sausage' to the menu. I wasn't planning on ordering it, but having it on the menu makes it that much easier to bring my vegetarian friends there.
Coyote and Crow availed itself of the identity politics talking points in it's writing and advertisement. (See the original thread)
The creator is trying to walk some of that back, now that it's bitten him in the ass.
That's where my concern for other people's feelings ends. When someone tries to weaponize it.
Greetings!
If I am playing a rainbow striped Hippo humanoid, wearing a bright purple and furred dress, a deer-antler helmet, and carrying a staff with a giant cow's tongue wiggling at the staff's tip, who would I be offending?
On another note, who the hell are you people playing with where you are surrounded by all of these super-duper sensitive and special people that are going to be or are offended at seemingly everything? If somehow, you were to run into crybaby freaks like this, why on earth would you even *dream* of wanting to let them join your gaming table? WHY?
Next, and more pointedly, who the hell are all of these vicious, evil people playing "Racist Caricatures"? Just like the sobbing, crybaby rainbow hippo people, why would you want to invite these people to your game table? Beyond that, I am quite suspicious of just such a claim. I have been gaming for many years now, and I can't say I have ever run into these mythical people. Everyone gaming at my table has created and ran theme-appropriate characters for the setting, regardless of where in the game world I have set the campaign in. Even when I have run games at Game Conventions--again, every gamer has run appropriate characters. I have never encountered "Racist Caricatures" of any kind.
Furthermore, beyond *that*--none of my friends through the years have ever gamed with people running "Racist Caricatures" either, so it isn't just limited to me because I'm some kind of harsh and dominant bastard.
I think it is strange that it is only the SJW "Woke" snowflakes that proclaim their benighted experience at encountering people like this.
In a similar vein, I have gamed with *many* uber-masculine Marines, Rangers, and other military veterans, supposedly the epicenter of all of the terrible "Toxic Masculinity"--and yet, all of the wives, girlfriends, and other women often involved, never, even *once*--had a problem with any of the men players. And yet, throughout the "Gaming Community"--who always seem to be involved with sexual assault, rape, or just being "Creepy" towards women? The vast majority of the time, it isn't "Toxic Masculine men"--but good, sweet, pink-shirt-wearing "Male Feminists". This angle is slightly different, but I see it as correlating with the whole "Toxic racists everywhere!" proclamation--again, the vast majority of the time, this also is promoted and shrieked about by SJW's and Woke rainbow hippos.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
You wanna give me the link?
I've read the Kickstarter, I've read the blog post about being an ally/cultural appropriation, I've read Ness articles in a tribal paper, and a few other things. I haven't seen anything that I could even begin to construe as an attempt to shame me for my European heritage.
Quote from: deadDMwalking on August 16, 2022, 03:27:07 PM
I feel like his point flew over your head. Keeping in mind that anyone can ignore rules they don't like at any time, he can't make you observe those 'rules'. But there's still good reason to have them. His rules basically come down to 'how not to be an insensitive jerk'.
No, the point didn't fly over my head. I'm well aware I can ignore his dumb suggestions, and I'm not a small child that needs lessons in sensitivity. It's the fact that he even felt the need to mention it at all. It's pandering to one group and condescending to another. Drawing a line in the sand and assuming that white people can't be respectful without being told is... well, frankly it's insulting and offensive. Besides, the book doesn't just say "be respectful," it says "don't do it." I'm pretty sure if I injected some traditional Polish heritage onto one of the presented cultures, Connor would find a problem with it.
To be honest, the premise of the setting is interesting, but I'm still not going to buy it because the owner is a bit of a douchebag and probably a little racist. It's the same reason I wouldn't buy cookies from a KKK bake sale. I really don't care what other people do. I'm not rooting for the company to fail, but I wouldn't feel bad if they cave.
QuoteTo the degree that your cultural heritage is one fountain and someone else's cultural heritage is another fountain, sure, you're drawing on different resources to enrich the game.
Pretty sure my comment about drinking from separate fountains went over YOUR head.
Quote from: deadDMwalking on August 16, 2022, 04:51:47 PM
@GeekyBugle
If you live your life without caring about other people's feelings, that's a choice you're free to make. Likewise, when people insult your mother you're free to choose not to take offense. But certainly you can agree that some statements are meant to insult and generate offense? Like when the Klingon told Scotty "I didn't mean to say that the Enterprise should be hauling garbage. I meant to say that it should be hauled away AS garbage!" it was intended to provoke a fight.
Some people create racist caricatures in the same manner. You don't have to get offended - you don't even have to care. But actions have consequences and some people will choose not to hang out with you if you persist in behaviors that are designed to provoke - they're INTENDED to be offensive.
You can learn a lot from roleplaying games. One of the ways you do that is by imagining yourself in a different situation, with different abilities and a different perspective. Some people have an interest in learning that in a way that is respectful and NOT intended to be offensive. There's room for a game like Coyote and Crow. Nobody says you HAVE to play it. But trying to AVOID causing undue offense is certainly not problematic.
It's just a really strange vibe that people here are pretending to be offended because [something something racial something identity politics] when people here don't believe in that.
I'm not vegetarian, but I know some people are. It's strange to me that people get offended when Cracker Barrel adds 'impossible sausage' to the menu. I wasn't planning on ordering it, but having it on the menu makes it that much easier to bring my vegetarian friends there.
Trying not to offend the perpetually offended is a fools errand.
Offense is never given, it's only taken.
It's weird to me that people would care about the fee fees of people they don't know and that are intent on being offended no matter what.
If I choose to interpret a Red Neck in the most racist/offensive way, the perpetually offended wouldn't give a damn. So, they're disingenuous in their claims about caring or racist and they only care if the target isn't white.
As a mutt Maya/Spaniard IDGAFF about the fee fees of the Alt-Right nor the Ctrl-Left, fuck them both.
But do keep on telling me how the racist author's fee fees should matter to me.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 16, 2022, 09:22:08 PM
Quote from: deadDMwalking on August 16, 2022, 04:51:47 PM
@GeekyBugle
If you live your life without caring about other people's feelings, that's a choice you're free to make. Likewise, when people insult your mother you're free to choose not to take offense. But certainly you can agree that some statements are meant to insult and generate offense? Like when the Klingon told Scotty "I didn't mean to say that the Enterprise should be hauling garbage. I meant to say that it should be hauled away AS garbage!" it was intended to provoke a fight.
Some people create racist caricatures in the same manner. You don't have to get offended - you don't even have to care. But actions have consequences and some people will choose not to hang out with you if you persist in behaviors that are designed to provoke - they're INTENDED to be offensive.
You can learn a lot from roleplaying games. One of the ways you do that is by imagining yourself in a different situation, with different abilities and a different perspective. Some people have an interest in learning that in a way that is respectful and NOT intended to be offensive. There's room for a game like Coyote and Crow. Nobody says you HAVE to play it. But trying to AVOID causing undue offense is certainly not problematic.
It's just a really strange vibe that people here are pretending to be offended because [something something racial something identity politics] when people here don't believe in that.
I'm not vegetarian, but I know some people are. It's strange to me that people get offended when Cracker Barrel adds 'impossible sausage' to the menu. I wasn't planning on ordering it, but having it on the menu makes it that much easier to bring my vegetarian friends there.
Trying not to offend the perpetually offended is a fools errand.
Offense is never given, it's only taken.
It's weird to me that people would care about the fee fees of people they don't know and that are intent on being offended no matter what.
If I choose to interpret a Red Neck in the most racist/offensive way, the perpetually offended wouldn't give a damn. So, they're disingenuous in their claims about caring or racist and they only care if the target isn't white.
As a mutt Maya/Spaniard IDGAFF about the fee fees of the Alt-Right nor the Ctrl-Left, fuck them both.
But do keep on telling me how the racist author's fee fees should matter to me.
Greetings!
All that mixing of bloodlines is good! It gives us *STRENGTH*!! ;D
"Trying not to offend the perpetually offended is a fool's errand" So damned right, GeekyBugle!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: RebelSky on August 15, 2022, 01:27:20 PM
Most likely a different expansionist culture would have invaded North America. They wouldn't have been white, but they would have still expanded and settled. Colonialism has never been just a white people thing. It's been happening for thousands of years.
The designers of Coyote & Crow are just that ignorant of history and their own people and the possible repercussions of what would happen in an alternate history of a wiped out 12th century Europe. Guarantee some group of people would have expanded into Europe in time. More wars would have been fought.
I predict in this alternate world either the Aztecs or a Khan ruled China would have invaded North America for it's resources. But that's just one possibility.
While I agree with your assessment in principle, it wouldn't apply to the the setting of C&C. In the setting, the reason the Americas were never colonized is that meteors crashed into the Earth 700 years ago, mostly in Europe/Asia/Africa. Those continents are smoking wastelands that the people of the Americas haven't bothered exploring.
So the author manages to sidestep the issue of another culture (like the Chinese or Muslims) invading instead. Or the Europeans invading at a later date.
Quote from: deadDMwalking on August 15, 2022, 11:43:16 AM
I understand that $1 million is not a lot in a business context, but I also understand that getting +$1million or losing $1million is a big enough sum of money to have repercussions, even for a business generating billions. Coyote and Crow is a small publisher. Generating $1 million is a huge amount of money for most small publishers, especially for their first product.
I read the posts by the founder about how playing a Native character is not cultural appropriation in the context of the game. I'm CONFIDENT that nobody that posts regularly on these boards believes that playing a Native character is Coyote and Crow qualifies as unacceptable cultural appropriation - I doubt most people here even think that's POSSIBLE. So when the founder says playing this game doesn't count as cultural appropriation, I agree. Does anyone here really disagree? Really?
I don't know if Connor Alexander 100% committed to leaving all other work and surviving on his RGP writing credits, but even if he did and he can't survive EXCLUSIVELY on that, I wouldn't consider this a failure. He's produced a book; there are at least 16,000 people that had a chance to experience his creative work. There are more than that discussing the product and having conversations about the play space and products. Generally, I'm in favor of more product availability - while I don't expect every product to appeal to every consumer, more choices mean that there is more for each individual consumer, including the possibility of someone's new favorite game.
In that context, there's nothing wrong with Coyote and Crow. Going bankrupt isn't always the end (if that's even happening). It happened for TSR, too. It's hard to think of D&D as anything other than a 'success'.
Does someone want to help me understand what game(s) you're comparing it to that count as a success?
Connor Alexander created a product that represents his passions. He was able to create the project on his terms with the creative content producers he wanted to work with. The product was created, it has been delivered into the hands of the people that asked for it. His company (even if short of funds, and that's a big if) still exists and can still try to create additional product.
Maybe my standards of success are too low, but that all sounds like something I could be proud of.
Color me shocked you have low standards.
You droll on and on in this thread about having a dude preach to you in a book he wants you to pay money for is "helpful" and you just can not see what the fuss is about. Why bother? You want the book, you get it. Change hearts and minds with telling us all what wonderful games you ran from the book that other games just couldnt do, not by whining about people are just taking the author's "helpful advice" the wrong way.
Here's the most recent comment from the KS. I think some of the backers are beginning to realize they may have been had.
See comment at https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/connoralexander/coyote-and-crow/comments
"Stewart White
2 days ago
I just got your e-mail regarding the donation process to the First Nations communities. You can get bent. First off, the price you charged for shipping to Canada for MY copy was absurd and well above the estimate. Then I got hosed for close to @50.00 cdn for that book by UPS for "Brokerage fees".
Now you are telling me that you expect me to pay another $32.00 USD to cover shipping of my donated copy to my local First Nations community and then likely leave them holding the bag for ANOTHER $50.00 in brokerage fees from UPS?
You guys are crooks. There's no other word for it.
How about instead of turning me upside down and shaking until the last nickel falls out, you live up to your original promise and get that donated copy where it needs to be? That or give me back the extra portion of my initial pledge that was supposed to cover the donated copy.
Below you will find the link to the Chippewas of Georgina Island. You can get in touch with their Librarian and find out where they'd like you to send their copy.
This is the most incompetent Kickstarter I've ever been involved in.
https://georginaisland.com/ "
Quote from: wmarshal on August 17, 2022, 10:17:23 AM
Here's the most recent comment from the KS. I think some of the backers are beginning to realize they may have been had.
See comment at https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/connoralexander/coyote-and-crow/comments
"Stewart White
2 days ago
I just got your e-mail regarding the donation process to the First Nations communities. You can get bent. First off, the price you charged for shipping to Canada for MY copy was absurd and well above the estimate. Then I got hosed for close to @50.00 cdn for that book by UPS for "Brokerage fees".
Now you are telling me that you expect me to pay another $32.00 USD to cover shipping of my donated copy to my local First Nations community and then likely leave them holding the bag for ANOTHER $50.00 in brokerage fees from UPS?
You guys are crooks. There's no other word for it.
How about instead of turning me upside down and shaking until the last nickel falls out, you live up to your original promise and get that donated copy where it needs to be? That or give me back the extra portion of my initial pledge that was supposed to cover the donated copy.
Below you will find the link to the Chippewas of Georgina Island. You can get in touch with their Librarian and find out where they'd like you to send their copy.
This is the most incompetent Kickstarter I've ever been involved in.
https://georginaisland.com/ "
But I was told that, since C&C made 1 million+, the guy was swimming in cash and not even close to going broke!
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 17, 2022, 11:21:48 AM
But I was told that, since C&C made 1 million+, the guy was swimming in cash and not even close to going broke!
Just give WokemanWalking time and I'm sure he will come up with a perfectly sane and valid reason why this complaint is completly false and how the designers are the true champions of us oppreseded minorities and handicapped. And then take off running with the goal posts instead of just admitting he was wrong like he was wrong all those other times.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 17, 2022, 11:21:48 AM
But I was told that, since C&C made 1 million+, the guy was swimming in cash and not even close to going broke!
All those Millions of Dollaroonies and the author can't afford to bulk ship books to a place that probably doesnt' even want them.
I did enjoy reading the comment where someone bought a copy and asked where their physical version was. He was told "You bought a copy for some BiPOC, you don't get a physical copy they do."
Quote from: THE_Leopold on August 17, 2022, 12:03:48 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 17, 2022, 11:21:48 AM
But I was told that, since C&C made 1 million+, the guy was swimming in cash and not even close to going broke!
All those Millions of Dollaroonies and the author can't afford to bulk ship books to a place that probably doesnt' even want them.
I did enjoy reading the comment where someone bought a copy and asked where their physical version was. He was told "You bought a copy for some BiPOC, you don't get a physical copy they do."
Well, the BiPOC would, except he can't afford to meet his obligation and ship the donated books. That's why he's begging for help from fools to give him more money. If I worked on that project I'd hope that I got paid in full already.
Quote from: THE_Leopold on August 17, 2022, 12:03:48 PM
All those Millions of Dollaroonies and the author can't afford to bulk ship books to a place that probably doesnt' even want them.
I did enjoy reading the comment where someone bought a copy and asked where their physical version was. He was told "You bought a copy for some BiPOC, you don't get a physical copy they do."
There were several comments about people not receiving their books months after the delivery period. Probably all similar situations. Not surprising, really. I don't think reading comprehension is their strong suit. My favorite comment is the guy that said he watched Black Panther and
"wept at the beauty of what could have been were it not for violence and colonization." As if Africa was all sunshine and rainbows before the English came. Same goes for tribal North America. When I hear people say, "give back the land," my first question is "To who?" Tribes were fighting and kiling each other over land and resources long before Columbus Sailed the Ocean Blue in Fourteen-Hundred Ninety Two.
Quote from: Effete on August 17, 2022, 12:37:31 PM
Quote from: THE_Leopold on August 17, 2022, 12:03:48 PM
All those Millions of Dollaroonies and the author can't afford to bulk ship books to a place that probably doesnt' even want them.
I did enjoy reading the comment where someone bought a copy and asked where their physical version was. He was told "You bought a copy for some BiPOC, you don't get a physical copy they do."
There were several comments about people not receiving their books months after the delivery period. Probably all similar situations. Not surprising, really. I don't think reading comprehension is their strong suit. My favorite comment is the guy that said he watched Black Panther and "wept at the beauty of what could have been were it not for violence and colonization." As if Africa was all sunshine and rainbows before the English came. Same goes for tribal North America. When I hear people say, "give back the land," my first question is "To who?" Tribes were fighting and kiling each other over land and resources long before Columbus Sailed the Ocean Blue in Fourteen-Hundred Ninety Two.
You are using logic and reason to work with people who use feelings and emotion in lieu of them.
Quote from: THE_Leopold on August 17, 2022, 12:40:00 PM
You are using logic and reason to work with people who use feelings and emotion in lieu of them.
And selective reading/cherry-picking.
I'd put money down that at least a few of these people legitimately thought they could buy a "donation book" and have it shipped to their house for free.
I think the author had his reasons for writing his game the way he wanted.
But.
Even I know that if you get weird about racial distinctions, then you're going to create a shit show.
Either own it, or don't do it at all. Making people mad, or at least suspicious that they're being subtly insulted will drive those customers away. This one seems more blatant. White people = bad. Let's make a backstory where there are no white people. Now let's get white people to buy it.
What did this guy expect?
I refused to buy any game that has 4 pages dedicated to talking about "non-native" and "native" gamers. I don't need to know anything else about the game. It's damage goods from the start and will never have my support.
Quote from: weirdguy564 on August 17, 2022, 12:57:11 PM
I think the author had his reasons for writing his game the way he wanted.
But.
Even I know that if you get weird about racial distinctions, then you're going to create a shit show.
Either own it, or don't do it at all. Making people mad, or at least suspicious that they're being subtly insulted will drive those customers away. This one seems more blatant. White people = bad. Let's make a backstory where there are no white people. Now let's get white people to buy it.
What did this guy expect?
I think he expected a lot of white Woke people to buy the game for themselves, and play it while wearing a hair shirt and bemoaning the evil of their own existence.
Instead the white Woke people screwed him over when they backed so many donations so that they could get the virtue points of backing the xenophobe's game, while also getting to avoid actually having to play it.
I expect there won't be a donation level on his next KS, or if there is it'll be limited to a small number.
This seems to be the state of play today unfortunately.
There's a strong emphasis on 'diversity' - which isn't in itself a bad thing, because human cultures other than our own are pretty cool, especially if they are allowed to be the messy, complicated fascinating things they were in the real world and not hopelessly sanitised. (Looking at you Radiant Citadel, where all the cultures you're representing have been infantilised, like those poverty-tourism ads aimed at rich white folks. 'See all the smiling, happy little brown faces! Look at their cute dances, their bright clothes and spicy food!')
But our role in these games is a passive one - we're not actually allowed to engage or inhabit these games (unless we have the wokescolds to tell us exactly how to play), we're just supposed to pay the wokegeld, put the thing on our shelf and tell the transracial author how wonderful he is.
A shame. A bunch of different cultures heading into space could have been kind of cool really.
Quote from: Continental on August 17, 2022, 03:03:36 PM
A shame. A bunch of different cultures heading into space could have been kind of cool really.
As a toolkit Stars Without Number can support this idea fairly well in giving a GM some starting points. I think in the current environment attempts to write a deep dive for commercial purposes is likely to be lifeless in its execution. A star empire based off a future Nigeria could be interesting. Cultures leveraging their position near the equator, and using space elevators to get into and ahead of the space race could be fertile ground.
Quote from: wmarshal on August 17, 2022, 03:16:54 PM
Quote from: Continental on August 17, 2022, 03:03:36 PM
A shame. A bunch of different cultures heading into space could have been kind of cool really.
As a toolkit Stars Without Number can support this idea fairly well in giving a GM some starting points. I think in the current environment attempts to write a deep dive for commercial purposes is likely to be lifeless in its execution. A star empire based off a future Nigeria could be interesting. Cultures leveraging their position near the equator, and using space elevators to get into and ahead of the space race could be fertile ground.
Classic Traveller has been doing this since 1977. Case in point, the boxed module Tarsus.
2300AD by the same publisher took all this to a new level.
It was 2300 I was thinking of when I wrote that - we played the hell out of it in the 90's.
Quote from: jeff37923 on August 17, 2022, 03:43:08 PM
Quote from: wmarshal on August 17, 2022, 03:16:54 PM
Quote from: Continental on August 17, 2022, 03:03:36 PM
A shame. A bunch of different cultures heading into space could have been kind of cool really.
As a toolkit Stars Without Number can support this idea fairly well in giving a GM some starting points. I think in the current environment attempts to write a deep dive for commercial purposes is likely to be lifeless in its execution. A star empire based off a future Nigeria could be interesting. Cultures leveraging their position near the equator, and using space elevators to get into and ahead of the space race could be fertile ground.
Classic Traveller has been doing this since 1977. Case in point, the boxed module Tarsus.
2300AD by the same publisher took all this to a new level.
Yup. And Mike Pondsmith stole the idea for Cyberpunk 2.0.2.0.
Quote from: Effete on August 17, 2022, 06:54:36 PM
Quote from: jeff37923 on August 17, 2022, 03:43:08 PM
Quote from: wmarshal on August 17, 2022, 03:16:54 PM
Quote from: Continental on August 17, 2022, 03:03:36 PM
A shame. A bunch of different cultures heading into space could have been kind of cool really.
As a toolkit Stars Without Number can support this idea fairly well in giving a GM some starting points. I think in the current environment attempts to write a deep dive for commercial purposes is likely to be lifeless in its execution. A star empire based off a future Nigeria could be interesting. Cultures leveraging their position near the equator, and using space elevators to get into and ahead of the space race could be fertile ground.
Classic Traveller has been doing this since 1977. Case in point, the boxed module Tarsus.
2300AD by the same publisher took all this to a new level.
Yup. And Mike Pondsmith stole the idea for Cyberpunk 2.0.2.0.
Mike Pondsmith has a serious love for Traveller. Just look at the dedications for Near Orbit and Deep Space.
Quote from: Wheetaye on August 17, 2022, 01:50:30 AM
While I agree with your assessment in principle, it wouldn't apply to the the setting of C&C. In the setting, the reason the Americas were never colonized is that meteors crashed into the Earth 700 years ago, mostly in Europe/Asia/Africa. Those continents are smoking wastelands that the people of the Americas haven't bothered exploring.
Because they haven't bothered to explore, the C&C world will be rocked when the "Conquistador: The Reckoning" supplement comes out.
Making the whole thing much more fun and playable.
Quote from: DocJones on August 17, 2022, 10:32:31 PM
Quote from: Wheetaye on August 17, 2022, 01:50:30 AM
While I agree with your assessment in principle, it wouldn't apply to the the setting of C&C. In the setting, the reason the Americas were never colonized is that meteors crashed into the Earth 700 years ago, mostly in Europe/Asia/Africa. Those continents are smoking wastelands that the people of the Americas haven't bothered exploring.
Because they haven't bothered to explore, the C&C world will be rocked when the "Conquistador: The Reckoning" supplement comes out.
Making the whole thing much more fun and playable.
Ya got the expansion title wrong, Doc.
They are sticking with the alliteration motif...
"Conquistador: the Colonizing"
Quote from: moonsweeper on August 18, 2022, 10:33:20 AM
Quote from: DocJones on August 17, 2022, 10:32:31 PM
Quote from: Wheetaye on August 17, 2022, 01:50:30 AM
While I agree with your assessment in principle, it wouldn't apply to the the setting of C&C. In the setting, the reason the Americas were never colonized is that meteors crashed into the Earth 700 years ago, mostly in Europe/Asia/Africa. Those continents are smoking wastelands that the people of the Americas haven't bothered exploring.
Because they haven't bothered to explore, the C&C world will be rocked when the "Conquistador: The Reckoning" supplement comes out.
Making the whole thing much more fun and playable.
Ya got the expansion title wrong, Doc.
They are sticking with the alliteration motif...
"Conquistador: the Colonizing"
or "Aztecs: Such Huge Assholes People Prefer Colonizing Pillagers"
Quote from: oggsmash on August 18, 2022, 11:30:29 AM
Quote from: moonsweeper on August 18, 2022, 10:33:20 AM
Quote from: DocJones on August 17, 2022, 10:32:31 PM
Quote from: Wheetaye on August 17, 2022, 01:50:30 AM
While I agree with your assessment in principle, it wouldn't apply to the the setting of C&C. In the setting, the reason the Americas were never colonized is that meteors crashed into the Earth 700 years ago, mostly in Europe/Asia/Africa. Those continents are smoking wastelands that the people of the Americas haven't bothered exploring.
Because they haven't bothered to explore, the C&C world will be rocked when the "Conquistador: The Reckoning" supplement comes out.
Making the whole thing much more fun and playable.
Ya got the expansion title wrong, Doc.
They are sticking with the alliteration motif...
"Conquistador: the Colonizing"
or "Aztecs: Such Huge Assholes People Prefer Colonizing Pillagers"
I specifically looked for anything on the Aztecs or Inca when I was flipping through the book at my FLGS. I couldn't find mention of them directly, but there's a paragraph or so about a civilization to the south with a similar name (Atlans or something, I don't remember). But they're a really watered down version, no mention of imperialism or human sacrifice, just a vague notion that they want to export their culture to everyone else, but aren't really making a big effort to do so.
All in all, there doesn't seem to be much to do in this campaign setting. None of the tribes has any vestige of any inhumane practices they might have historically practiced. While it doesn't state it outright, it drops some fairly obvious hints that the people of the Eurasian and African continents are either wiped out, or got blasted to the stone age by the meteorites, and are not going to be a threat in the immediate future. Despite being ostensibly a cyberpunk setting, they don't even appear to have what would be the main antagonists of that kind of setting -giant, souless mega-corps. Probably because the author can't stand the thought of his uwu-precious indigenous folx engaging in dirty, western imperialist capitalism.
I might be wrong about some of this. I was flipping through a copy while waiting for my brother to finish up a game of commander. But all the stuff I mentioned is stuff I was looking for specifically, so I'm reasonably confident in my assessment.
Quote from: Wheetaye on August 18, 2022, 12:48:22 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on August 18, 2022, 11:30:29 AM
Quote from: moonsweeper on August 18, 2022, 10:33:20 AM
Quote from: DocJones on August 17, 2022, 10:32:31 PM
Quote from: Wheetaye on August 17, 2022, 01:50:30 AM
While I agree with your assessment in principle, it wouldn't apply to the the setting of C&C. In the setting, the reason the Americas were never colonized is that meteors crashed into the Earth 700 years ago, mostly in Europe/Asia/Africa. Those continents are smoking wastelands that the people of the Americas haven't bothered exploring.
Because they haven't bothered to explore, the C&C world will be rocked when the "Conquistador: The Reckoning" supplement comes out.
Making the whole thing much more fun and playable.
Ya got the expansion title wrong, Doc.
They are sticking with the alliteration motif...
"Conquistador: the Colonizing"
or "Aztecs: Such Huge Assholes People Prefer Colonizing Pillagers"
I specifically looked for anything on the Aztecs or Inca when I was flipping through the book at my FLGS. I couldn't find mention of them directly, but there's a paragraph or so about a civilization to the south with a similar name (Atlans or something, I don't remember). But they're a really watered down version, no mention of imperialism or human sacrifice, just a vague notion that they want to export their culture to everyone else, but aren't really making a big effort to do so.
All in all, there doesn't seem to be much to do in this campaign setting. None of the tribes has any vestige of any inhumane practices they might have historically practiced. While it doesn't state it outright, it drops some fairly obvious hints that the people of the Eurasian and African continents are either wiped out, or got blasted to the stone age by the meteorites, and are not going to be a threat in the immediate future. Despite being ostensibly a cyberpunk setting, they don't even appear to have what would be the main antagonists of that kind of setting -giant, souless mega-corps. Probably because the author can't stand the thought of his uwu-precious indigenous folx engaging in dirty, western imperialist capitalism.
I might be wrong about some of this. I was flipping through a copy while waiting for my brother to finish up a game of commander. But all the stuff I mentioned is stuff I was looking for specifically, so I'm reasonably confident in my assessment.
Antagonists can be greedy Casino owners getting the people to drink fire water and lose their life savings.
Quote from: Wheetaye on August 18, 2022, 12:48:22 PM
I specifically looked for anything on the Aztecs or Inca when I was flipping through the book at my FLGS. I couldn't find mention of them directly, but there's a paragraph or so about a civilization to the south with a similar name (Atlans or something, I don't remember). But they're a really watered down version, no mention of imperialism or human sacrifice, just a vague notion that they want to export their culture to everyone else, but aren't really making a big effort to do so.
All in all, there doesn't seem to be much to do in this campaign setting. None of the tribes has any vestige of any inhumane practices they might have historically practiced. While it doesn't state it outright, it drops some fairly obvious hints that the people of the Eurasian and African continents are either wiped out, or got blasted to the stone age by the meteorites, and are not going to be a threat in the immediate future. Despite being ostensibly a cyberpunk setting, they don't even appear to have what would be the main antagonists of that kind of setting -giant, souless mega-corps. Probably because the author can't stand the thought of his uwu-precious indigenous folx engaging in dirty, western imperialist capitalism.
I might be wrong about some of this. I was flipping through a copy while waiting for my brother to finish up a game of commander. But all the stuff I mentioned is stuff I was looking for specifically, so I'm reasonably confident in my assessment.
So basically
Din do nuffin.I mentioned in another thread, this has the potential to be an interesting setting, but it's really just watered down, pandering garbage. At least make the [not-Aztec] some sort quasi-threat, if not outright antagonists. I'm almost compelled to run this game as an Evil campaign, where the high-tech natives americans take their hover-boats to Eurasia and brutally subjugate the "savages" that survived the meteor impacts while setting up little outposts of their own. Too on the nose?
Quote from: Wheetaye on August 18, 2022, 12:48:22 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on August 18, 2022, 11:30:29 AM
Quote from: moonsweeper on August 18, 2022, 10:33:20 AM
Quote from: DocJones on August 17, 2022, 10:32:31 PM
Quote from: Wheetaye on August 17, 2022, 01:50:30 AM
While I agree with your assessment in principle, it wouldn't apply to the the setting of C&C. In the setting, the reason the Americas were never colonized is that meteors crashed into the Earth 700 years ago, mostly in Europe/Asia/Africa. Those continents are smoking wastelands that the people of the Americas haven't bothered exploring.
Because they haven't bothered to explore, the C&C world will be rocked when the "Conquistador: The Reckoning" supplement comes out.
Making the whole thing much more fun and playable.
Ya got the expansion title wrong, Doc.
They are sticking with the alliteration motif...
"Conquistador: the Colonizing"
or "Aztecs: Such Huge Assholes People Prefer Colonizing Pillagers"
I specifically looked for anything on the Aztecs or Inca when I was flipping through the book at my FLGS. I couldn't find mention of them directly, but there's a paragraph or so about a civilization to the south with a similar name (Atlans or something, I don't remember). But they're a really watered down version, no mention of imperialism or human sacrifice, just a vague notion that they want to export their culture to everyone else, but aren't really making a big effort to do so.
All in all, there doesn't seem to be much to do in this campaign setting. None of the tribes has any vestige of any inhumane practices they might have historically practiced. While it doesn't state it outright, it drops some fairly obvious hints that the people of the Eurasian and African continents are either wiped out, or got blasted to the stone age by the meteorites, and are not going to be a threat in the immediate future. Despite being ostensibly a cyberpunk setting, they don't even appear to have what would be the main antagonists of that kind of setting -giant, souless mega-corps. Probably because the author can't stand the thought of his uwu-precious indigenous folx engaging in dirty, western imperialist capitalism.
I might be wrong about some of this. I was flipping through a copy while waiting for my brother to finish up a game of commander. But all the stuff I mentioned is stuff I was looking for specifically, so I'm reasonably confident in my assessment.
If a setting is made into something approaching utopia there isn't as much to do adventure-wise other than navel-gaze, and congratulate yourself on being so enlightened for playing in such a setting.
Quote from: wmarshal on August 18, 2022, 02:04:41 PM
If a setting is made into something approaching utopia there isn't as much to do adventure-wise other than navel-gaze, and congratulate yourself on being so enlightened for playing in such a setting.
There's always the prom.
Quote from: Godsmonkey on August 18, 2022, 02:14:57 PM
Quote from: wmarshal on August 18, 2022, 02:04:41 PM
If a setting is made into something approaching utopia there isn't as much to do adventure-wise other than navel-gaze, and congratulate yourself on being so enlightened for playing in such a setting.
There's always the prom.
I think D&D already put out the book covering university frenimies and gay proms.
Quote from: oggsmash on August 18, 2022, 02:19:06 PM
Quote from: Godsmonkey on August 18, 2022, 02:14:57 PM
Quote from: wmarshal on August 18, 2022, 02:04:41 PM
If a setting is made into something approaching utopia there isn't as much to do adventure-wise other than navel-gaze, and congratulate yourself on being so enlightened for playing in such a setting.
There's always the prom.
I think D&D already put out the book covering university frenimies and gay proms.
But not the NATIVE approved version of it.
Greetings!
Funny how the Coyote & Clown author--allegedly "Cherokee"--seems to have entirely overlooked some intriguing aspects of Cherokee--and other Indian tribes' customs.
The Cherokee practiced roasting and eating the hearts of slain enemy warriors!
Or, how about the common practice amongst many Indian tribes of performing genocide against enemy tribes? All the men would be hunted down and killed--while the women were taken captive as slaves and concubines. And afterwards constantly plundered and mated with. Yes, the new children they bred would go into being members of the new tribe, and the old tribal lineage would soon be forgotten.
Many customs of savage torture. Oh, and not always practiced by the Indian men, either. Indian women were often quite eager to engage in torture parties of captured enemies--whether such captives were male or female.
Slavery, torture, genocide, cannibalism, murder, rape, and ruthless, brutal conquest.
Native Indian tribes embraced and celebrated all of these things, from Alaska down to Argentina, and everywhere in between, by all tribes in general. The Indian tribes practiced, embraced, and celebrated these things before ever meeting a single white man.
The Native Indians didn't need the "White Man" to teach them about these things.
The Native Indians were already very well acquainted with such customs.
I really get tired of people that want to white-wash and sanitize Indians as some kind of uber, peaceful fucking hippies.
Fucking Coyote & Clown! ;D
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: SHARK on August 18, 2022, 02:32:13 PM
Slavery, torture, genocide, cannibalism, murder, rape, and ruthless, brutal conquest.
Native Indian tribes embraced and celebrated all of these things, from Alaska down to Argentina, and everywhere in between, by all tribes in general. The Indian tribes practiced, embraced, and celebrated these things before ever meeting a single white man.
So... basically, like all humans before the Enlightenment.
Quote from: Effete on August 18, 2022, 03:02:52 PM
Quote from: SHARK on August 18, 2022, 02:32:13 PM
Slavery, torture, genocide, cannibalism, murder, rape, and ruthless, brutal conquest.
Native Indian tribes embraced and celebrated all of these things, from Alaska down to Argentina, and everywhere in between, by all tribes in general. The Indian tribes practiced, embraced, and celebrated these things before ever meeting a single white man.
So... basically, like all humans before the Enlightenment.
Like all humans, ever, when the thin veneer of civilization is stripped off, before during or after the Enlightenment or any similar movement. Not understanding that is the first step down a long road. Some people that take it far enough can end up writing a setting like Coyote and Crow so completely devoid of an anchor to the reality of being human.
Quote from: moonsweeper on August 18, 2022, 10:33:20 AM
Ya got the expansion title wrong, Doc.
They are sticking with the alliteration motif...
"Conquistador: the Colonizing"
The sad thing is that Whitey Redface doesn't even care if you play it that way.
His whole article is
'just buy my fucking game, you evil white people, I don't care why!'
Quote from: Continental on August 18, 2022, 04:55:07 PM
Quote from: moonsweeper on August 18, 2022, 10:33:20 AM
Ya got the expansion title wrong, Doc.
They are sticking with the alliteration motif...
"Conquistador: the Colonizing"
The sad thing is that Whitey Redface doesn't even care if you play it that way.
His whole article is 'just buy my fucking game, you evil white people, I don't care why!'
If I wrote an rpg of all things I'd be pretty depressed if it was just bought to score vague political points and no one actually bothered to play the damn thing. It really speaks to an ugly creative bankruptcy on the part of Mr Alexander.
Quote from: Visitor Q on August 18, 2022, 04:57:42 PM
If I wrote an rpg of all things I'd be pretty depressed if it was just bought to score vague political points and no one actually bothered to play the damn thing. It really speaks to an ugly creative bankruptcy on the part of Mr Alexander.
That's
Big Chief Alexander to you, whitey!
And yeah, this wasn't a labour of love for anyone. I actually tend to give a pass to things made from a genuine creative place, even if I don't agree with them politically or like the product.
But this was made simultaneously as a cash-grab on white-guilt, and to push a political ideology from a dishonest place.
What a horrible thing to be. It's entire existence is misery and self-loathing.
I just found out that they are making an RPG for the Mythic Americas miniature game. Soon Coyote and Crow will be the second most successful Native American RPG released in 2022 (although it will win all the awards).
BTW - Here is their booth at GenCon. Plenty of product there.
(https://i.imgur.com/59ZPTdg.jpg)
Quote from: hedgehobbit on August 18, 2022, 09:46:35 PM
I just found out that they are making an RPG for the Mythic Americas miniature game. Soon Coyote and Crow will be the second most successful Native American RPG released in 2022 (although it will win all the awards).
That sounds great. I play Mythic Americas and I love it. I was considering bringing it up ITT as a comparison on how to do indigenous mythology and gaming right, without all the progressive garbage. No weird cyberpunk aesthetic stuff painted on either, so you get a more authentic pre-Colombian experience.
I don't see anything on their website about it. Did they just announce it at the con? What system are they going to use?
Quote from: Godsmonkey on August 18, 2022, 02:25:35 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on August 18, 2022, 02:19:06 PM
Quote from: Godsmonkey on August 18, 2022, 02:14:57 PM
Quote from: wmarshal on August 18, 2022, 02:04:41 PM
If a setting is made into something approaching utopia there isn't as much to do adventure-wise other than navel-gaze, and congratulate yourself on being so enlightened for playing in such a setting.
There's always the prom.
I suspect jeremy crawford could conjure a 1/128th DNA test if needed.
I think D&D already put out the book covering university frenimies and gay proms.
But not the NATIVE approved version of it.
I suspect jeremy crawford could conjure a 1/128th DNA test if needed.
Quote from: oggsmash on August 18, 2022, 11:30:29 AM
Quote from: moonsweeper on August 18, 2022, 10:33:20 AM
Quote from: DocJones on August 17, 2022, 10:32:31 PM
Quote from: Wheetaye on August 17, 2022, 01:50:30 AM
While I agree with your assessment in principle, it wouldn't apply to the the setting of C&C. In the setting, the reason the Americas were never colonized is that meteors crashed into the Earth 700 years ago, mostly in Europe/Asia/Africa. Those continents are smoking wastelands that the people of the Americas haven't bothered exploring.
Because they haven't bothered to explore, the C&C world will be rocked when the "Conquistador: The Reckoning" supplement comes out.
Making the whole thing much more fun and playable.
Ya got the expansion title wrong, Doc.
They are sticking with the alliteration motif...
"Conquistador: the Colonizing"
or "Aztecs: Such Huge Assholes People Prefer Colonizing Pillagers"
"Aztecs: The Azz-Kicking"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloody_Falls_massacre
This kind of history could be ripe for RPG scenarios...would Coyote and Crow work?
Quote from: TheShadow on August 19, 2022, 06:26:09 AM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloody_Falls_massacre
This kind of history could be ripe for RPG scenarios...would Coyote and Crow work?
No, because that story involves evil, colonialist Europeans. In a proper C&C game, Samuel Hearne wouldn't have been around to imperialistically try and force his Eurocentric ways on the proud indigenous Chipewyan by begging them not to massacre the Inuit.
Sarcasm aside, the Mythic Americas RPG will likely be a good way to run an "evil" campaign straight. An Aztec party could go out on raids for sacrificial prisoners. I don't think they will shy away from the darker side of historical accuracy. In the miniature game, Inca priest units come with sacrificial virgin models that can be sacrificed to improve your casting roll. Imagine playing an RPG where you have those listed on your character's equipment sheat.
Quote from: Wheetaye on August 19, 2022, 07:04:19 AM
Quote from: TheShadow on August 19, 2022, 06:26:09 AM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloody_Falls_massacre
This kind of history could be ripe for RPG scenarios...would Coyote and Crow work?
No, because that story involves evil, colonialist Europeans.
Coyote & Crow is a sci-fi game set in A.D. 2112 of an alternate history/future. While the dice mechanics are general enough to work, none of the character creation, equipment, or other material would work for a historical game. It's not written as a generic universal system, though with work it could be adapted.
This is like asking if the Cyberpunk RPG would work to run a Revolutionary War game, or complaining about how the Cyberpunk RPG is set in the U.S. but doesn't talk about slavery. Life in Cyberpunk Atlanta is vastly different than in 1770's Georgia.
I think it would work fine to add in first contact with Europeans in Coyote & Crow. That might be an interesting campaign possibility.
Quote from: jhkim on August 19, 2022, 04:34:03 PM
I think it would work fine to add in first contact with Europeans in Coyote & Crow. That might be an interesting campaign possibility.
I agree that would be interesting, different cultures meeting while exploring a new space frontier.
Funnily enough someone asked if they could add vikings to the story on his forum, and was told no because 'it's not their story'. Why does he need permission? If you have the book, how is he going to stop you doing whatever you want with it?
What really bothers me is that - for the purposes of this game - they made up a gestalt fictional Native tribe with its own language, presumably with actual natives advising as to its general authenticity. Good move really, so we have purely fictional tribespeople, not mimicking a particular real-world tribe, so there's no real-world arguments and nobody taking offense. And you can't culturally-appropriate a completely made-up native tribe, right? So the idea seems to support other races playing with that concept and adding their own elements right, because it's an entirely fictional thing, like elves or dwarves, something that doesn't actually exist so nobody should get offended? .
But they still forbid Whitey from changing anything or playing certain roles, even though it's an entirely fictional setting with a tribe and traditions that don't exist in real life and were created for the purpose of playing the game...?
What am I missing?
(But then I remembered they had to change orcs to the good guys in D&D One because the blue checkmarks got mad about racism directed against creatures than didn't actually exist...)
Quote from: jhkim on August 19, 2022, 04:34:03 PM
Quote from: Wheetaye on August 19, 2022, 07:04:19 AM
Quote from: TheShadow on August 19, 2022, 06:26:09 AM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloody_Falls_massacre
This kind of history could be ripe for RPG scenarios...would Coyote and Crow work?
No, because that story involves evil, colonialist Europeans.
Coyote & Crow is a sci-fi game set in A.D. 2112 of an alternate history/future. While the dice mechanics are general enough to work, none of the character creation, equipment, or other material would work for a historical game. It's not written as a generic universal system, though with work it could be adapted.
This is like asking if the Cyberpunk RPG would work to run a Revolutionary War game, or complaining about how the Cyberpunk RPG is set in the U.S. but doesn't talk about slavery. Life in Cyberpunk Atlanta is vastly different than in 1770's Georgia.
I think it would work fine to add in first contact with Europeans in Coyote & Crow. That might be an interesting campaign possibility.
Snark aside, you're being literal out of autism or out of being a disingenuos twat?
Quote from: Continental on August 19, 2022, 04:43:40 PM
Funnily enough someone asked if they could add vikings to the story on his forum, and was told no because 'it's not their story'. Why does he need permission? If you have the book, how is he going to stop you doing whatever you want with it?
Obviously, he doesn't need the author's permission. RPG authors can often be opinionated about how people play their game, but no one needs the author's permission. Gary Gygax had a rant against people using spell points and other variants in D&D in The Dragon #16 (see "Role-Playing: Realism vs. Game Logic; Spell Points, Vanity Press and Rip-offs" on page 15). But people could and did use spell points and other variants despite Gygax's protests.
Likewise, the author also has an opinion against non-native people playing real-world native cultures, but again, that's his opinion. Lots of RPG authors say something or other I disagree with. They're free to give their opinion, and I can do whatever I want in my campaign.
The game has fictional culture as a device - but it fits well given that the game is set in A.D. 2112 after a massive divergence 710 years earlier. For comparison, modern-day Europeans in 2022 have very different national/cultural divisions than seven hundred years earlier, and it hasn't had a massive cataclysm that the game has.
Quote from: jhkim on August 20, 2022, 08:28:35 PM
Quote from: Continental on August 19, 2022, 04:43:40 PM
Funnily enough someone asked if they could add vikings to the story on his forum, and was told no because 'it's not their story'. Why does he need permission? If you have the book, how is he going to stop you doing whatever you want with it?
Obviously, he doesn't need the author's permission. RPG authors can often be opinionated about how people play their game, but no one needs the author's permission. Gary Gygax had a rant against people using spell points and other variants in D&D in The Dragon #16 (see "Role-Playing: Realism vs. Game Logic; Spell Points, Vanity Press and Rip-offs" on page 15). But people could and did use spell points and other variants despite Gygax's protests.
Likewise, the author also has an opinion against non-native people playing real-world native cultures, but again, that's his opinion. Lots of RPG authors say something or other I disagree with. They're free to give their opinion, and I can do whatever I want in my campaign.
The game has fictional culture as a device - but it fits well given that the game is set in A.D. 2112 after a massive divergence 710 years earlier. For comparison, modern-day Europeans in 2022 have very different national/cultural divisions than seven hundred years earlier, and it hasn't had a massive cataclysm that the game has.
Gary's rant was about the use of a game mechanic.
The author of Coyote and Crow is making a moral judgement against those who would violate his racially isolationist vision of the setting. If you do so it makes you a bad person according to him. That's part of the reason why there are people afraid to play the game. Imagine being a non-Native American group thinking of live-streaming a session. One wrong step and the author can bring down SJW Hell upon you. It could impact your reputation, your work opportunities in the hobby, or even your income directly if you were using streaming/social media for income.
If Gary was alive today and saw a streamer using spell points in a D&D game, he might call it dumb, and leave it at that, though I think as he got older he may have mellowed out on those points. Gary wouldn't be able to impugn your moral character, send a social media mob after you, and make you a pariah in gaming. There is a difference in what the Coyote and Crow author is doing, and it is
evil.
Quote from: wmarshal on August 20, 2022, 09:31:38 PMImagine being a non-Native American group thinking of live-streaming a session. One wrong step and the author can bring down SJW Hell upon you. It could impact your reputation, your work opportunities in the hobby, or even your income directly if you were using streaming/social media for income.
Doesn't even need to come from the author. There's plenty of people willing to be offended on his behalf.
Someone is starting a Coyote&Crow PbP game on RPGX. It hasn't gotten out of the application phase, but I'd be interested in reading along to see how well the players adhere to Kimosabe Conner's rules. A couple of the applicants were really fawning over the setting, I could almost hear the high-pitched squeals.
Quote from: Continental on August 19, 2022, 04:43:40 PMAnd you can't culturally-appropriate a completely made-up native tribe, right?
Watch someone accuse them of exactly that.
Quote from: hedgehobbit on August 18, 2022, 09:46:35 PM
I just found out that they are making an RPG for the Mythic Americas miniature game. Soon Coyote and Crow will be the second most successful Native American RPG released in 2022 (although it will win all the awards).
BTW - Here is their booth at GenCon. Plenty of product there.
(https://i.imgur.com/59ZPTdg.jpg)
Damn, those are some awesome minis.
Quote from: Effete on August 18, 2022, 01:54:24 PM
I'm almost compelled to run this game as an Evil campaign, where the high-tech natives americans take their hover-boats to Eurasia and brutally subjugate the "savages" that survived the meteor impacts while setting up little outposts of their own. Too on the nose?
Sure. Just call them Numenorians. :-*
Quote from: Crawford Tillinghast on August 21, 2022, 08:10:54 AM
Quote from: Effete on August 18, 2022, 01:54:24 PM
I'm almost compelled to run this game as an Evil campaign, where the high-tech natives americans take their hover-boats to Eurasia and brutally subjugate the "savages" that survived the meteor impacts while setting up little outposts of their own. Too on the nose?
Sure. Just call them Numenorians. :-*
"He's outta line... but he ain't wrong."
Quote from: Continental on August 19, 2022, 04:43:40 PM
Funnily enough someone asked if they could add vikings to the story on his forum, and was told no because 'it's not their story'. Why does he need permission? If you have the book, how is he going to stop you doing whatever you want with it?
An excellent idea for another C&C supplement:
'Vikings : the Vanquishing'
Quote from: jhkim on August 19, 2022, 04:34:03 PM
This is like asking if the Cyberpunk RPG would work to run a Revolutionary War game
Give me Mr. Studd, or give me death!
As a one-off or something just for shits and giggles, I'm not hating the idea.
Quote from: hedgehobbit on August 18, 2022, 09:46:35 PM
I just found out that they are making an RPG for the Mythic Americas miniature game. Soon Coyote and Crow will be the second most successful Native American RPG released in 2022 (although it will win all the awards).
Cool. From brief search, I saw a bunch about the Mythic Americas miniatures game, but I didn't see anything about the upcoming RPG. Any pointers on that? I was interested by the introduction from the creator on the website.
QuoteMythic Americas is really a 12-year old's dream, somehow come to life 40 years later. It was when I was 12, and had migrated with my family to New Jersey from Venezuela in 1978, that I realized how much I missed the stories my grandmother used to tell me about saints, ghosts, miracles, terrifying banshees like La Lorrona, blessed-beings like Maria Lionza, and magic users and spells; specially curses, which she was always guarding against, or the blessings she got placed on her, her friends, house, and family, by a local "brujo" I don't remember ever meeting. It was here in the US that I realized I had fallen in love with the mythologies, and mysteries of my native lands, especially all of those stories about magic my grandmother told me about. My grandma was of indigenous descent (I later found out about 40% of that heritage runs through my veins!)
In all of the years since, I have surrounded myself in whichever way I could, with as much of the lore, mythology and histories of my native lands. It is this personal history which has been the driving force behind Mythic Americas.
https://www.mythicamericas.com/a-word-from-the-mythic-americas-creator
Quote from: Thornhammer on August 21, 2022, 07:12:39 PM
Quote from: jhkim on August 19, 2022, 04:34:03 PM
This is like asking if the Cyberpunk RPG would work to run a Revolutionary War game
Give me Mr. Studd, or give me death!
As a one-off or something just for shits and giggles, I'm not hating the idea.
Well, with Cyberpunk, a second Revolutionary War isn't out of the question.
I assume the company are fine with white people playing the Mythic America minis game? (or the RPG)
Or do they have disclaimers too?
Quote from: Continental on August 22, 2022, 08:07:36 AM
I assume the company are fine with white people playing the Mythic America minis game? (or the RPG)
Or do they have disclaimers too?
Absolutely nothing of the sort. Might be a little of the opposite in fact. The creator really seams like he want to share American mythology. Like I mentioned before, the game doesn't try to sugar coat stuff from these cultures. One of the secondary objectives you can pick is to perform endocannibalism on your fallen units to honor them.
Quote from: Continental on August 22, 2022, 08:07:36 AM
I assume the company are fine with white people playing the Mythic America minis game? (or the RPG)
Or do they have disclaimers too?
No disclaimers. The link jhkim posted was a Word from the Author. Makes it clear the myths of Native Americans is a passion of his he wants to share but ultimately it is a work of fiction. Which shouldn't need to be stated but these days there are a lot of odd sorts who don't really understand the difference between reality and fantasy.
Wow, it almost feels like they love their mythological passion - warts and all - and can't wait to share it with others.
I'll definitely look into the RPG when it comes out, thanks for conforming that.
Quote from: Wheetaye on August 22, 2022, 08:22:53 AM
One of the secondary objectives you can pick is to perform endocannibalism on your fallen units to honor them.
But that's not right at all! I read Radiant Citadel and they assured me the only sacrifices Mesoamericans ever made were baked goods. Why would they lie to me about that???
<sarcasm off!>Honestly this seems to be what happens when a creator is motivated by their love of the subject and wants to share it, as opposed to someone like Big White Chief Connor who is motivated by scoring woke points and $$$.
Quote from: jhkim on August 19, 2022, 04:34:03 PM
Coyote & Crow is a sci-fi game set in A.D. 2112 of an alternate history/future.
Given this portentous setting date I can see the possibility for an adventure or campaign where the goal of the party (maximum size of three) would be to discover an ancient miracle of the elder race, allowing them to attempt to free the future from the oppressive orthodoxy. The one where they've taken care of everything, the words we read, the songs we sing, the pictures that give pleasure to our eye...
Quote from: rhialto on August 23, 2022, 07:54:48 AM
Quote from: jhkim on August 19, 2022, 04:34:03 PM
Coyote & Crow is a sci-fi game set in A.D. 2112 of an alternate history/future.
Given this portentous setting date I can see the possibility for an adventure or campaign where the goal of the party (maximum size of three) would be to discover an ancient miracle of the elder race, allowing them to attempt to free the future from the oppressive orthodoxy. The one where they've taken care of everything, the words we read, the songs we sing, the pictures that give pleasure to our eye...
+1.
Well done.
I only read some of that blog post, and the screenshots from the book. I still think its funny that someone making a book is trying to tell people how to act at the table or what to do when they play the game
When I first read about the Kickstarter, I was enthusiastic, and signed up nearly immediately. I thought--"Cool! Not enough games about Native Americans, and love a futuristic setting!"
I say this, married to a woman who's DNA has been tested and is approximately 66% Indigenous (South American), and my kids therefore are about 33% Native American. (My wife and son look pretty native, but my daughter takes after me--and I have zero Native American DNA). I thought it would be another way to try to get my kids exposed to the hobby, not just Eurocentric or Asiacentric Fantasy (not that either one of these is bad, but variety is good.)
I didn't mind reading about my people being killed off in a disaster. Hey, it's an alterative history. I wasn't offended in the least--it was an interesting "what if?" like The Years of Rice and Salt. I'm not going to say that's racist in and of itself. Europe had a huge, huge effect on the development of the world in the last five hundred years, and taking it out of the equation allows for some rather interesting "what if" scenarios.
And then I read pp 12-13, "A Message To non-Native American Players". Ok, so don't be an asshole when you play--maybe more than a tiny bit woke, but frankly, I could ignore it. He's not going to send cops to arrest me for cultural appropriation. He doesn't have the power. (Not yet, anyway.) But hey, I'm not even sure if it had to be said in any way, shape or form. Someone acting in a racist way in a game is not cool, and I don't think they'd be invited back. And as far as someone who has extensive knowledge of native cultures not using that knowledge, because they're not native? Screw that. Knowledge isn't invalidated because you're not a member of the ethnic, religious, or racial group you've studied. It's crap woke thinking to say that you have to keep mum on that because your skin isn't the right color. Yes, it can be condescending and inaccurate, but that's the problem--not the race of the person who says it.
And then, his announcement in the OP of this thread. What an asshole. Screw him. Not a dime more to him.
The links the posters have given have been gold. Like the utterly inane "non-native North American" at https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/connoralexander/coyote-and-crow/comments (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/connoralexander/coyote-and-crow/comments) who wrote: "When I watched Black Panther and saw Wakanda for the first time, I wept at the beauty of what could have been were it not for violence and colonization. Coyote & Crow gave me the same reaction about my home continent. A thousand thanks!" Yeah, because Wakanda would have just arisen automatically if it wasn't because of colonization...forgetting the Vibranium (i.e., a highly improbable miracle metal that makes for a fun story but completely unrealistic) that made it possible...and glossing over all of the violence that Africans have done to themselves long before Europeans came.
And the "Opportunities& Partnerships" at https://coyoteandcrow.net/2021/05/09/coyote-crow-creative-opportunities/ ? (https://coyoteandcrow.net/2021/05/09/coyote-crow-creative-opportunities/%20?) Love this racist part: "Non-Natives are welcome to apply for any positions that aren't called out as Native only positions." (emphasis added).
So, you gladly embrace racial discrimination in your employment? I hope someone sues this jerk, but I doubt if the EEOC would touch this with a ten foot pole. And on the same page, he's looking for Cosplayers? Gee, I'm sure he'll be fine with a Nordic blond hair-blue eyed dude with a gigantic beard cosplaying as a Native American. I'm sure he'd have no problem with that. [/SARCASM]
Fundamentally, it's another example of how many in the hobby--heck, many in this culture--which seem to fundamentally hate people like me. Screw them. Not a dime more to these kind of companies.
I will add plenty of european americans have embraced and adopted native american ideas/stories/customs over the years, its one reason why there are so many people with 1/16th or less native american dna in their make up, there was plenty of acceptance and integration. many people have studied the tribes and their history without even being connected to them by blood, and many different states, cities, and rivers use native american words for their names. I've been thinking about doing a NA inspired rpg supplement/game that does a dive into different real tribes for the setting, might actually get to it some day, who knows.
I think it would have been more interesting, if you are going for science fiction, to have had a Native American colony on a hostile world. Leave the rest of the Earth for the GM to develop. Maybe even make it a setting supplement to an existing game. But if you did that wouldn't get to virtual signal for attention.
ohhh, or here's an idea. Just hear me out. The utopian without conflict C&C crew go into space and inadvertently lead a group of aliens back....who then start colonizing.
Quote from: Osman Gazi on August 23, 2022, 01:34:22 PM
When I first read about the Kickstarter, I was enthusiastic, and signed up nearly immediately. I thought--"Cool! Not enough games about Native Americans, and love a futuristic setting!"
...
Quote from: Osman Gazi on August 23, 2022, 01:34:22 PM
Yes, it can be condescending and inaccurate, but that's the problem--not the race of the person who says it.
And then, his announcement in the OP of this thread. What an asshole. Screw him. Not a dime more to him.
Interesting. It seems that for you, what's important is the values that the author expresses in online posts.
For me, I don't give a damn about what an author says on social media. I buy gaming products based on whether I think they'd be fun for me to play, or give useful ideas for other games.
When the Coyote & Crow Kickstarter came out, this was an author with no other RPG credits and an untested genre. Thus, I didn't sign up. I almost never sign up for a Kickstarter unless it's for a personal friend. After it came out, I borrowed a copy to read through, and I still haven't paid any money for it.
Reading through it, I think the book seems pretty good. It's well-produced and has a lot of good material. However, the biggest issue is a conceptual one that it's got a tough learning curve. I can't see running it as a one-shot game because there are too many things to explain -- the new system, the unique technology, the psychic powers, and especially the society and way of life. I'd considered running a one-shot to try it out, but the learning curve has put me off from that.
Quote from: jhkim on August 23, 2022, 05:36:04 PM
Quote from: Osman Gazi on August 23, 2022, 01:34:22 PM
When I first read about the Kickstarter, I was enthusiastic, and signed up nearly immediately. I thought--"Cool! Not enough games about Native Americans, and love a futuristic setting!"
...
Quote from: Osman Gazi on August 23, 2022, 01:34:22 PM
Yes, it can be condescending and inaccurate, but that's the problem--not the race of the person who says it.
And then, his announcement in the OP of this thread. What an asshole. Screw him. Not a dime more to him.
Interesting. It seems that for you, what's important is the values that the author expresses in online posts.
Well, yeah, to a certain extent. To use two examples at the extreme end of things: let's say he expressed that chocolate sucks, and vanilla is the only flavor of ice cream worthy of eating. I'd disagree with him, but I don't care. Or on the other extreme end of things: let's say he said that all religious people should be lined up and shot--then there's no way I'd support him, doesn't matter if the game is pure gold. There are certain things with which the author I can disagree, but I'm fine with patronizing them. There are other things that cross the line. Having racist hiring practices crosses the line, and he has them. Dictating how one can use his product while expressing contempt for people that don't see eye to eye with him--why should I give him my money?
QuoteFor me, I don't give a damn about what an author says on social media. I buy gaming products based on whether I think they'd be fun for me to play, or give useful ideas for other games.
That's you. That's fine. I have different standards than you. That's ok.
The author is going to give professional advice. That's going to include game mechanics and that's going to include recommendations for players feeling included and comfortable. Like all advice (even advice you've paid for) it's up to you to take it or leave it.
But before you leave it, I think it's worth looking at a little more carefully.
Setting aside race and ethnicity for a moment, imagine that you have a male player that decides to play a female character. Further, let's say that that this particular female character is dialed up on the 'slut-o-meter' to the point that the player's goal is to jump every john in the game. Now, while we can imagine that there may be females in the world that are 'easy' and or someone could even exist that was in real life exactly the same way, in the game a lot of people, male and female, may find that that it presents an insulting stereotype or caricature. But while it's easy to imagine someone that is WAY over the line, we all recognize that where we draw the line personally varies. Some players are going to be okay with John (playing Cathy) make a move on NPC Mr. Church; some are not.
If Cathy were played by a woman, a lot of people wouldn't even worry about it to the same degree. If Cathy does everything that John does, our perception of whether John is crossing the line, or approaching the line or way the hell over the line is a little more flexible - in part because she's in on the joke.
When you make fun of yourself, you usually have a lot of latitude. When you make fun of someone else, they're going to have a sense of humor about it until they don't. When you 'respectfully incorporate your understanding of a culture that you're not a part of' you can really help them have a good time - but you also risk doing something foolish or insulting that you weren't even aware of. That's a risk you're free to take, especially with your friends, but it's also a risk that the author shouldn't feel uncomfortable about highlighting.
And this is especially true because there is a fictional social group presented that allows you to carefully avoid calling attention to a real extant social group that is dealing with some real shit outside of the game world like balancing tribal government versus state/city, providing social services and opportunity, trying to maintain a distinct culture among a much larger 'consumer culture'.
If I want to style myself a Chippewa Warrior, I can do that. But the author isn't wrong to tell me why there's a good chance that, despite whatever research I've done, I'm likely to misrepresent (at least in the minds of authentic Chippewa) their authentic culture. At best, my research is only as good as my sources, and there are some unreliable sources on...just about anything.
Quote from: deadDMwalking on August 23, 2022, 07:34:32 PM
The author is going to give professional advice. That's going to include game mechanics and that's going to include recommendations for players feeling included and comfortable. Like all advice (even advice you've paid for) it's up to you to take it or leave it.
But before you leave it, I think it's worth looking at a little more carefully.
Setting aside race and ethnicity for a moment, imagine that you have a male player that decides to play a female character. Further, let's say that that this particular female character is dialed up on the 'slut-o-meter' to the point that the player's goal is to jump every john in the game. Now, while we can imagine that there may be females in the world that are 'easy' and or someone could even exist that was in real life exactly the same way, in the game a lot of people, male and female, may find that that it presents an insulting stereotype or caricature. But while it's easy to imagine someone that is WAY over the line, we all recognize that where we draw the line personally varies. Some players are going to be okay with John (playing Cathy) make a move on NPC Mr. Church; some are not.
If Cathy were played by a woman, a lot of people wouldn't even worry about it to the same degree. If Cathy does everything that John does, our perception of whether John is crossing the line, or approaching the line or way the hell over the line is a little more flexible - in part because she's in on the joke.
When you make fun of yourself, you usually have a lot of latitude. When you make fun of someone else, they're going to have a sense of humor about it until they don't. When you 'respectfully incorporate your understanding of a culture that you're not a part of' you can really help them have a good time - but you also risk doing something foolish or insulting that you weren't even aware of. That's a risk you're free to take, especially with your friends, but it's also a risk that the author shouldn't feel uncomfortable about highlighting.
And this is especially true because there is a fictional social group presented that allows you to carefully avoid calling attention to a real extant social group that is dealing with some real shit outside of the game world like balancing tribal government versus state/city, providing social services and opportunity, trying to maintain a distinct culture among a much larger 'consumer culture'.
If I want to style myself a Chippewa Warrior, I can do that. But the author isn't wrong to tell me why there's a good chance that, despite whatever research I've done, I'm likely to misrepresent (at least in the minds of authentic Chippewa) their authentic culture. At best, my research is only as good as my sources, and there are some unreliable sources on...just about anything.
So, is there a rule you have about women interpreting men? Or does your razor only cut one way?
Do white people get to tell the Chipewa they shouldn't play as white people or does your razor only cut one way?
I bet I know the answer.
As for some Chipewa somewhere, someday, finding out somehow I interpret a character with all the stereotypes dialed up to 99 and maybe getting offended, the author, you and every other moral busibody can get fucked.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 23, 2022, 07:54:55 PM
So, is there a rule you have about women interpreting men? Or does your razor only cut one way?
No, I don't have any rules about how you should play your character, of what type of character you play. I mean, other than we're all playing together and we care about everyone around us having fun, so we all commit to making characters that are appropriate for the tone of the campaign. If we're playing Conan and you make Scooby Doo, that's a problem.
If we're all making hard-boiled noir detectives and you're making a nymphomaniac, that's a problem.
But I've certainly seen players who were disruptive because they had a 'joke' idea that was detrimental to the campaign. And if we've got 5-6 people who feel that one person is causing problems, we're going to have a conversation about how we can keep the game as fun as possible - that's likely to require changes from the 'disruptive player'.
Because the first rule - really the ONLY rule - is don't be an ass. If you can get past that, everything else is easy.
Quote from: deadDMwalking on August 23, 2022, 07:59:32 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 23, 2022, 07:54:55 PM
So, is there a rule you have about women interpreting men? Or does your razor only cut one way?
No, I don't have any rules about how you should play your character, of what type of character you play. I mean, other than we're all playing together and we care about everyone around us having fun, so we all commit to making characters that are appropriate for the tone of the campaign. If we're playing Conan and you make Scooby Doo, that's a problem.
If we're all making hard-boiled noir detectives and you're making a nymphomaniac, that's a problem.
But I've certainly seen players who were disruptive because they had a 'joke' idea that was detrimental to the campaign. And if we've got 5-6 people who feel that one person is causing problems, we're going to have a conversation about how we can keep the game as fun as possible - that's likely to require changes from the 'disruptive player'.
Because the first rule - really the ONLY rule - is don't be an ass. If you can get past that, everything else is easy.
Here we have Wokeman Walking playing the disingenuous twat.
You know perfectly well I'm talking about your example of John playing "Cathy" as an uber slut. You said that was a problem.
Reverse the sexes of player/character, a woman playing a male character as an uber dude bro incel. Is that also a problem?
If you're going to continue to play dumb don't bother answering.
deadDMwalking is notoriously disengenous, and views just about everyone here with contempt.
He is here exclusively to play dumb.
deadDMwalking is presenting an idealized (and fictional) version of the guidelines written in the C&C sourcebook. As written, it is not a "don't be an asshole" guide. It is an extremely restrictive roleplaying protocol for non-indigenous players. There are three major issues with it:
1) It assumes that it isn't possible for a non-indigenous player to be able to have the necessary knowledge or experience to properly roleplay a character respectfully, while assuming an indigenous player will. Even if that player only discovered their heritage last week.
2) Building on the first point, while it does provide some guidance on roleplaying for non-indigenous players, it restricts those players to only that material, plus guidance from indigenous players. In doing so, it implicitly claims to be the only proper written source for indigenous culture suitable for roleplaying. You have a book written by a native author you got when you took a class from the author? Too bad, you'll probably misinterpret something in there and do something offensive, only use our book.
3) Indigenous players who want to play someone from another tribe or culture are not referred to the section for non-indigenous players, but instead allowed the same freedom to explore and create their character as if they were from that tribe. Are you a Seminole who wants to play a Tlinget character? A tribe that lived on the other side of the continent from yours, with no historical contact? Go ahead and do you.
Quote from: deadDMwalking on August 23, 2022, 07:34:32 PM
But before you leave it, I think it's worth looking at a little more carefully.
Setting aside race and ethnicity for a moment, imagine that you have a male player that decides to play a female character. Further, let's say that that this particular female character is dialed up on the 'slut-o-meter' to the point that the player's goal is to jump every john in the game. Now, while we can imagine that there may be females in the world that are 'easy' and or someone could even exist that was in real life exactly the same way, in the game a lot of people, male and female, may find that that it presents an insulting stereotype or caricature. But while it's easy to imagine someone that is WAY over the line, we all recognize that where we draw the line personally varies. Some players are going to be okay with John (playing Cathy) make a move on NPC Mr. Church; some are not.
If Cathy were played by a woman, a lot of people wouldn't even worry about it to the same degree. If Cathy does everything that John does, our perception of whether John is crossing the line, or approaching the line or way the hell over the line is a little more flexible - in part because she's in on the joke.
Isn't this similar thinking to what led to sexual assault at GenCon? Where a bunch of woke decided that a MtF trans was actually a woman and therefore would not try to force themselves on a woman they shared a room with?
Quote from: Wheetaye on August 23, 2022, 09:00:48 PM
"don't be an asshole"
That's been my mantra ever since I began gaming. The problem is that it's not good enough for some of these wokescolds.
I treat everyone the same until they prove me wrong. But no special 'treatment' for anyone, that includes these 'tarded wokescolds.
Okay, okay, this guy has shamed me into buying a copy. I'll even just stick it on a shelf and not play it, as required. But I'm not gonna insult him by offering him the white man's currency. Nope, he'll have to take payment the indigenous way: a muskrat pelt, a twist of tobacco, some bird feathers, and a really nice chunk of chert. The game's not worth as much as a pony, or even a woman.
Quote from: I on August 24, 2022, 07:57:53 AM
Okay, okay, this guy has shamed me into buying a copy. I'll even just stick it on a shelf and not play it, as required. But I'm not gonna insult him by offering him the white man's currency. Nope, he'll have to take payment the indigenous way: a muskrat pelt, a twist of tobacco, some bird feathers, and a really nice chunk of chert. The game's not worth as much as a pony, or even a woman.
I guess you can at least be commended for not paying with pox-contaminated blankets. ::)
Quote from: deadDMwalking on August 23, 2022, 07:34:32 PM
The author is going to give professional advice. That's going to include game mechanics and that's going to include recommendations for players feeling included and comfortable. Like all advice (even advice you've paid for) it's up to you to take it or leave it.
But before you leave it, I think it's worth looking at a little more carefully.
Setting aside race and ethnicity for a moment, imagine that you have a male player that decides to play a female character. Further, let's say that that this particular female character is dialed up on the 'slut-o-meter' to the point that the player's goal is to jump every john in the game. Now, while we can imagine that there may be females in the world that are 'easy' and or someone could even exist that was in real life exactly the same way, in the game a lot of people, male and female, may find that that it presents an insulting stereotype or caricature. But while it's easy to imagine someone that is WAY over the line, we all recognize that where we draw the line personally varies. Some players are going to be okay with John (playing Cathy) make a move on NPC Mr. Church; some are not.
If Cathy were played by a woman, a lot of people wouldn't even worry about it to the same degree. If Cathy does everything that John does, our perception of whether John is crossing the line, or approaching the line or way the hell over the line is a little more flexible - in part because she's in on the joke.
When you make fun of yourself, you usually have a lot of latitude. When you make fun of someone else, they're going to have a sense of humor about it until they don't. When you 'respectfully incorporate your understanding of a culture that you're not a part of' you can really help them have a good time - but you also risk doing something foolish or insulting that you weren't even aware of. That's a risk you're free to take, especially with your friends, but it's also a risk that the author shouldn't feel uncomfortable about highlighting.
And this is especially true because there is a fictional social group presented that allows you to carefully avoid calling attention to a real extant social group that is dealing with some real shit outside of the game world like balancing tribal government versus state/city, providing social services and opportunity, trying to maintain a distinct culture among a much larger 'consumer culture'.
If I want to style myself a Chippewa Warrior, I can do that. But the author isn't wrong to tell me why there's a good chance that, despite whatever research I've done, I'm likely to misrepresent (at least in the minds of authentic Chippewa) their authentic culture. At best, my research is only as good as my sources, and there are some unreliable sources on...just about anything.
Bolding mineConnor Alexander may be a professional games designer and writer but he is not a professional at understanding what makes players feel included and comfortable, neither in the general sense or the hundreds of thousands of specific gaming groups that exist worldwide.
And this speaks to my issues with the presentation of the game; These include that it is mechanically and as far as I can tell ideologically racist; that the premise that misrepresentation can even occur in this game is ridiculous; the premise of the advice is inimical to the spirit of rpgs.
Specifically, the author goes out of their way to explain that Players should not play certain types of fictional Characters based on their own real-life race. This by itself is racist although without context could simply be ignored as just strange.
But the author then has the temerity to justify this on the basis that apparently Native Americans (and every other ethnic group by implication) are a homogenous group with predictable reactions as to how they would feel about someone of a different ethnicity playing a fictional character. Further Mr Alexander is so confident no member of any other ethnic group could possibly approach Native American culture in anything but a cursory and shallow way that certain concepts such as Two-Spirit identities are obviously off limits (his words: "Honestly, though, we shouldn't need those four pages. Everything I wrote above is just common sense to me").
Additionally, and frankly the proposition that it is even possible to misrepresent an actual Chippewa Warrior (or anyone else) from the real world when that Player Character Chippewa Warrior is existing in a different, fantastical, timeline 800 years adrift from the real world is feeble. No one, including Native Americans, is representing anything related to real world culture any more than a player is representing actual 7th century Christian knights when you play Pendragon. At most the player is presenting an aesthetic.
From a roleplaying consumer point of view, the advice is also deeply off putting as it runs counter to the spirit of roleplaying games which is using imagination to engage in escapism for recreation. In addition, the idea that a man I've never met before, who lives on a different continent has anything to say about my ability to put my own gaming group at ease over something as specific as race relations is asinine in the extreme.
Quote from: Continental on August 17, 2022, 03:03:36 PM
This seems to be the state of play today unfortunately.
There's a strong emphasis on 'diversity' -
A shame. A bunch of different cultures heading into space could have been kind of cool really.
1: Only in the woke cult circles.
2: SJWs preach fake diversity. And often enforce and even demand segregation. They are a disease.
3: Been done a few times. Raven*Star is a nominally native american themed sci-fi RPG. Original Torg had space aztecs show up. Theres been one or teo in other media too. Especially books.
Just from what I am seeing about this game, it looks like it would be terrible to play and would be, well depressing.
I am glad that this woke piece of crap is paying for his BS and I am a big believe of Go Woke, Go Broke.
To say if I don't by his game I am not an ally and I should buy it even if I don't play it? I have said this before in this thread, but I will say it again "Screw him"
What a toolbag the author of Coyote and Crow is. Wait, I have seen a picture of what he looks like and to no surprise he looks like a toolbag.
Quote from: deadDMwalking on August 23, 2022, 07:34:32 PM
Setting aside race and ethnicity for a moment, imagine that you have a male player that decides to play a female character. Further, let's say that that this particular female character is dialed up on the 'slut-o-meter' to the point that the player's goal is to jump every john in the game. Now, while we can imagine that there may be females in the world that are 'easy' and or someone could even exist that was in real life exactly the same way, in the game a lot of people, male and female, may find that that it presents an insulting stereotype or caricature. But while it's easy to imagine someone that is WAY over the line, we all recognize that where we draw the line personally varies. Some players are going to be okay with John (playing Cathy) make a move on NPC Mr. Church; some are not.
If Cathy were played by a woman, a lot of people wouldn't even worry about it to the same degree. If Cathy does everything that John does, our perception of whether John is crossing the line, or approaching the line or way the hell over the line is a little more flexible - in part because she's in on the joke.
There is a giant exception to this very example: Drag Queens. They play up a slutty, over-sexualized stereotype of women. Yet they're rarely criticized on these grounds. Indeed, if a woman
does criticize a Drag Queen as "appropriating femininity" , chances are they're going to be judged negatively for that.
(For myself, I don't like Drag. They remind me of Clowns, which I really don't like. Over-sexualized Clowns. The stuff of childhood nightmares. Maybe a good Horror game seed..."Sex Clowns from Outer Space...")
Generally, our outrage is quite selective. Sometimes we defend it because we're "punching up", but attack others for "punching down"...which in itself is problematic--different standards of behavior expected because of your race, ethnicity, religion, sex, etc. And trying to determine what a reasonable person might view as "offensive" can be a minefield, with constantly shifting goalposts. And in a RPG setting, yeah, the limits might be tested on occasion, whenever you involve real-life cultures and races. I'm reflecting right now on White Wolf's problematic "Gypsies"...yeah, there are real-world Romani, and I can get if they're offended by a game that appeals to stereotypes. Does that mean that any non-Romani can never play a Romani character? I think that would be even worse--erasing them completely (assuming the campaign would normally involve them...but for the same reason, if playing a historically based game set in 15th century Germany, I'm not going to insist on Australian Aboriginal "representation". It would be just representation for the sake of representation and ahistorical.)
And as I said, even though the "flavor" of what was written in the book was woke, I get the point--i.e., don't be a Dick, don't play to stereotypes. I was willing to overlook the tone and move on. However, as I learned more about the author and the company in public statements, I really had to ask myself "do I really want to support this kind of a business, with explicitly racist hiring practices (e.g., "set-asides" for Native Americans that non-Native Americans can't apply for) and pretty unveiled hatred for people like me?"
That it. Others might feel differently. I'm not throwing out my book or deleting the .pdf. Heck, I might play a game as long as there are good people to play with (and that goes for any game). But use my limited dollars to support it? No. Just no.
Quote from: Wheetaye on August 23, 2022, 09:00:48 PM
deadDMwalking is presenting an idealized (and fictional) version of the guidelines written in the C&C sourcebook. As written, it is not a "don't be an asshole" guide. It is an extremely restrictive roleplaying protocol for non-indigenous players.
Don't pretend that Rule 0 doesn't exist.
Good advice, bad advice, your game, your decision. I'd argue that it isn't such bad advice - I don't feel restricted by it because there are so many other ways to play. And since it's alt-history, trying to shoehorn a real world history that doesn't conform just offers more challenges that are easier to avoid by accepting the setting and it's conceits.
Quote from: deadDMwalking on August 24, 2022, 10:29:57 AM
I don't feel restricted by it because there are so many other ways to play. And since it's alt-history, trying to shoehorn a real world history that doesn't conform
Well, this is it... Assuming you want to play the game, you just play it whatever way you want and can just ignore any advice given by the creator.
I quite like some of the Fate material (not that I will buy anymore) but I don't, particularly like F. Hicks, and certainly wouldn't conform to anything he said.
At the end of the day, play these games as you want to play them.
Quote from: deadDMwalking on August 24, 2022, 10:29:57 AM
Quote from: Wheetaye on August 23, 2022, 09:00:48 PM
deadDMwalking is presenting an idealized (and fictional) version of the guidelines written in the C&C sourcebook. As written, it is not a "don't be an asshole" guide. It is an extremely restrictive roleplaying protocol for non-indigenous players.
Don't pretend that Rule 0 doesn't exist.
Good advice, bad advice, your game, your decision. I'd argue that it isn't such bad advice - I don't feel restricted by it because there are so many other ways to play.
This is pretty meaningless to the issues actually being raised. Shrugging and saying "Good advice, bad advice, your choice" can essentially be applied to any piece of art, literature, political statement, religion, philosophy or journalism without doing anything to comment on the piece or engage with a critique.
Coyote & Crow pretty obviously is not presenting neutral gaming advice but a prescriptive instruction made on the basis of the authors ideology. Instructions incidentally which in the context of choosing to play this specific game a player who was so inclined would have a pretty reaonsable assumption should be followed if they insisted. In the same way a player would have a reasonable assumption SAN rules would be used in Call of Cthulhu.
You know, Visitor Q, I actually agree with you. I think it's good to consider the advice that the game provides and to evaluate it and critique it. I do believe that rules, in an RPG, for instance, are usually a good thing, and that many rules can be reviewed, analyzed, and improved based on their intent and expected output. I believe that advice should be evaluated the same way.
Now, agreeing that advice could be good or bad, I don't think that a singular piece of bad advice
ruins a specific work. I don't think that GMs should fudge die rolls - if you agree to roll you should agree to keep the roll
no matter what. But I also understand that there are books that will tell me
I should fudge the roll, especially if it helps me achieve a bunch of other things that are important. I'm prepared to read their advice, consider their advice, and then make my own decision.
In the 3rd paragraph of the message to Native players he says:
Quote..keep in mind that the intention of this game is not to simply take the reality of our lived world and transpose it onto a future fictional world. This is a work of alternate history fiction. In the world of Coyote & Crow, the last 700 years of our real history never happened. We encourage you not to overlay your tribe's recent past onto this different future, but instead think in terms of what could be, of what might have been
Bold for emphasis. That seems...pretty reasonable.
Talking about discussing what counts as 'respectful use'
prior to the start of game to avoid needing to stop a session - that's pretty squarely in line with 'don't be an asshole advice'.
When talking to non-native players he reaffirms the whole '700 years of alternate history' aspect, meaning that even well-researched real-world studies are not reliable. He specifically suggests 4 actions that players should not do:
1) Choose a real-world heritage
2) Choosing a two-spirit identity
3) inserting vocabulary from an Indigenous language if it isn't a proper noun or included in their guide
4) Speaking or acting in a fashion that mimics what are almost certainly negative stereotypes of Native Americans.
None of that is 'bad advice'. Maybe it's on the cautious side. Maybe you can use some non-proper nouns if you've been studying Navajo (available on Duolingo) and that'll actually make the game better. But that doesn't make the game 'inherently racist' or even make it 'pandering' to Native crowd, or targeted at 'white guilt'.
Setting aside the book and going to the blog, avoiding going to a Mexican restaurant because you're afraid of 'cultural appropriation' is pretty silly. Helping people see that is also a good thing. Even if you believe that you can be disrespectful to a culture by taking aspects of it and exaggerating them/repurposing them (and I'm sure NOT EVERYONE HERE AGREES THAT IS EVEN POSSIBLE), pointing out that there's lots of space to engage with another culture before you even need to worry about it is surely worthwhile.
Now, this is Connor's advice and he thinks it's pretty 'common sense'. I personally agree with his take. I'm pretty sure some posters here are taking liberties with 'what he really means'
Quote from: deadDMwalking on August 24, 2022, 10:29:57 AM
Quote from: Wheetaye on August 23, 2022, 09:00:48 PM
deadDMwalking is presenting an idealized (and fictional) version of the guidelines written in the C&C sourcebook. As written, it is not a "don't be an asshole" guide. It is an extremely restrictive roleplaying protocol for non-indigenous players.
Don't pretend that Rule 0 doesn't exist.
Good advice, bad advice, your game, your decision. I'd argue that it isn't such bad advice - I don't feel restricted by it because there are so many other ways to play. And since it's alt-history, trying to shoehorn a real world history that doesn't conform just offers more challenges that are easier to avoid by accepting the setting and it's conceits.
Since it's alt-history it's also alt-ethnicities, therefore there's no way to "play to stereotypes".
Let us remember that to you a man playing a female slut is bad, but a woman playing a dude bro (or whatever other sterotype) isn't because of their sex.
Just like, to you & the author of C&C, a white (puagh!) person playing another ethnicity is fraught with "problematic" obstacles, but any person of any other ethnicity playing a white character is not.
You and him ARE racists and sexists, you're also (I think) a white saviour getting offended on my behalf. I'm more NA than the author since 1 of my grandparents was Maya, I don't have to trace my lineage centuries back to know it or make a DNA test. (Although we did trace our lineage back to the last Moorish king of (In would be Spain really) Spain.
It's a good thing I'm developing my own alt-history Mayan inspired fantasy game. No racist/sexist advice to be found on it.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 24, 2022, 11:55:40 AM
It's a good thing I'm developing my own alt-history Mayan inspired fantasy game. No racist/sexist advice to be found on it.
I'm doing the same... I'm turning my back on all the 'contaminated' fantasy stuff, like fluffy playable orcs, and going full-on Celtic. Albeit my own version of Irish History. It's totally self-contained (except perhaps for Britain). And other gnarly Fey realms. With lots of purely evil races for the players to cut to bits, or team up with. I won't be imposing my personal morals on how a game should be played. That's up to the group and none of my business.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 24, 2022, 11:55:40 AM
Since it's alt-history it's also alt-ethnicities, therefore there's no way to "play to stereotypes".
Unless you bring in real cultures and you proceed to stereotype them. Which you don't have to do, the book asks you not to do, but apparently some people think that the author is racist to tell you that's a bad idea?
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 24, 2022, 11:55:40 AM
Let us remember that to you a man playing a female slut is bad, but a woman playing a dude bro (or whatever other sterotype) isn't because of their sex.
I'm saying that when you play a character and you exaggerate certain features (horniness being an example) there's a big difference when you're making fun of yourself versus making fun of someone else. A guy playing a horn-ball guy is creepy in most game contexts, too, but it's clear that he's making fun of himself. When the guy is playing a horn-ball girl it's less clear if it is mean-spirited. And that's fine to gender-swap that. A girl playing a horn-guy would be similarly creepy in that context. We could argue about whether someone like me should worry about a girl making fun of me (since I'm pretty large/strong/secure) the same way that a girl should worry about a guy making fun of her, but ultimately, I like to try to avoid making people feel uncomfortable at the game REGARDLESS of where those comfort levels are.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 24, 2022, 11:55:40 AM
Just like, to you & the author of C&C, a white (puagh!) person playing another ethnicity is fraught with "problematic" obstacles, but any person of any other ethnicity playing a white character is not.
I didn't say this, and you know it. It's not racist for me to play a black character, nor is it racist for a black person to play a white character. It could be racist if I play a character of a different race (or gender or ethnicity) and specifically try to exaggerate them for comedic effect. We could have a pretty deep aside about why and how stereotypes happen, and whether including some but not others is more respectful, but at the end of the day some people are going to see your character as a fully realized person and some MIGHT see it as a caricature of hurtful stereotypes, depending in no small part on your presentation.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 24, 2022, 11:55:40 AM
You and him ARE racists and sexists, you're also (I think) a white saviour getting offended on my behalf.
I'm not offended. I'm not offended
on your behalf. I never get offended for other people. When other people are offended I don't tell them that they don't have a RIGHT to be offended, and when people tell me they're offended and why something is offensive to them, I try to see it from their perspective. I'll usually say something like 'I can see how that could be offensive'. Because usually I can.
Not always, though. It APPEARS that Connor's comments are deeply offensive to some people, and I'm just not understanding why. It may be that I'm racist and sexist and therefore just oblivious, as you allege, GeekyBugle, but if that's the case I think I could ruminate and improve myself.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 24, 2022, 11:55:40 AM
You and him ARE racists and sexists, you're also (I think) a white saviour getting offended on my behalf. I'm more NA than the author since 1 of my grandparents was Maya, I don't have to trace my lineage centuries back to know it or make a DNA test. (Although we did trace our lineage back to the last Moorish king of (In would be Spain really) Spain.
It's a good thing I'm developing my own alt-history Mayan inspired fantasy game. No racist/sexist advice to be found on it.
I think it would be cool to have that Moorish Spain connection in your alt-history Mayan game, too (speaking of my own preferences), though don't know if that would fit in as you have envisioned. At any rate, please keep us informed on the progress of your game. Are you using an existing system to build on, or completely home-built? (Sorry if this is off-topic.)
Quote from: deadDMwalking on August 24, 2022, 12:16:20 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 24, 2022, 11:55:40 AM
Since it's alt-history it's also alt-ethnicities, therefore there's no way to "play to stereotypes".
Unless you bring in real cultures and you proceed to stereotype them. Which you don't have to do, the book asks you not to do, but apparently some people think that the author is racist to tell you that's a bad idea?
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 24, 2022, 11:55:40 AM
Let us remember that to you a man playing a female slut is bad, but a woman playing a dude bro (or whatever other sterotype) isn't because of their sex.
I'm saying that when you play a character and you exaggerate certain features (horniness being an example) there's a big difference when you're making fun of yourself versus making fun of someone else. A guy playing a horn-ball guy is creepy in most game contexts, too, but it's clear that he's making fun of himself. When the guy is playing a horn-ball girl it's less clear if it is mean-spirited. And that's fine to gender-swap that. A girl playing a horn-guy would be similarly creepy in that context. We could argue about whether someone like me should worry about a girl making fun of me (since I'm pretty large/strong/secure) the same way that a girl should worry about a guy making fun of her, but ultimately, I like to try to avoid making people feel uncomfortable at the game REGARDLESS of where those comfort levels are.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 24, 2022, 11:55:40 AM
Just like, to you & the author of C&C, a white (puagh!) person playing another ethnicity is fraught with "problematic" obstacles, but any person of any other ethnicity playing a white character is not.
I didn't say this, and you know it. It's not racist for me to play a black character, nor is it racist for a black person to play a white character. It could be racist if I play a character of a different race (or gender or ethnicity) and specifically try to exaggerate them for comedic effect. We could have a pretty deep aside about why and how stereotypes happen, and whether including some but not others is more respectful, but at the end of the day some people are going to see your character as a fully realized person and some MIGHT see it as a caricature of hurtful stereotypes, depending in no small part on your presentation.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 24, 2022, 11:55:40 AM
You and him ARE racists and sexists, you're also (I think) a white saviour getting offended on my behalf.
I'm not offended. I'm not offended on your behalf. I never get offended for other people. When other people are offended I don't tell them that they don't have a RIGHT to be offended, and when people tell me they're offended and why something is offensive to them, I try to see it from their perspective. I'll usually say something like 'I can see how that could be offensive'. Because usually I can.
Not always, though. It APPEARS that Connor's comments are deeply offensive to some people, and I'm just not understanding why. It may be that I'm racist and sexist and therefore just oblivious, as you allege, GeekyBugle, but if that's the case I think I could ruminate and improve myself.
"
We could argue about whether someone like me should worry about a girl making fun of me (since I'm pretty large/strong/secure) the same way that a girl should worry about a guy making fun of her"
If it's wrong for me it's wrong for her, that's called equality, but you're a fedora wearing wahmen respecter.
In the same way if it's wrong for a white person it's wrong for a person of any other "race", but you're a racist as all progressives are.
No, you're not getting offended on my behalf, you're getting offended in the behalf of some hypotetical.
Quote from: Osman Gazi on August 24, 2022, 12:21:31 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 24, 2022, 11:55:40 AM
You and him ARE racists and sexists, you're also (I think) a white saviour getting offended on my behalf. I'm more NA than the author since 1 of my grandparents was Maya, I don't have to trace my lineage centuries back to know it or make a DNA test. (Although we did trace our lineage back to the last Moorish king of (In would be Spain really) Spain.
It's a good thing I'm developing my own alt-history Mayan inspired fantasy game. No racist/sexist advice to be found on it.
I think it would be cool to have that Moorish Spain connection in your alt-history Mayan game, too (speaking of my own preferences), though don't know if that would fit in as you have envisioned. At any rate, please keep us informed on the progress of your game. Are you using an existing system to build on, or completely home-built? (Sorry if this is off-topic.)
It is and I've been warned about it.
Quote from: deadDMwalking on August 24, 2022, 12:16:20 PM
Unless you bring in real cultures and you proceed to stereotype them. Which you don't have to do, the book asks you not to do, but apparently some people think that the author is racist to tell you that's a bad idea?
.....
I'm not offended. I'm not offended on your behalf. I never get offended for other people. When other people are offended I don't tell them that they don't have a RIGHT to be offended, and when people tell me they're offended and why something is offensive to them, I try to see it from their perspective. I'll usually say something like 'I can see how that could be offensive'. Because usually I can.
Not always, though. It APPEARS that Connor's comments are deeply offensive to some people, and I'm just not understanding why. It may be that I'm racist and sexist and therefore just oblivious, as you allege, GeekyBugle, but if that's the case I think I could ruminate and improve myself.
Asking players not to stereotype a culture is not the racist bit.
Racist: adjective prejudiced against a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular racial or ethnic group.
The core of a role play game is to take on the role of a fictional character, embody that character and play a game generally adventurous or thrilling in nature with that character.
Instructing a real-life person that they cannot take on a role and play it how they wish within a rpg
only because of their
real-life ethnicity is racist. Note that we are not talking about context or stereotyping or experience. The instruction is an absolute one. If you intend to play the game as the author intended you can't use any Native American words that aren't proper nouns if you are not Native American yourself. It doesn't matter if you are a professor in Indigenous-Languages, or fluent in them or have just done a hell of a lot of research if you are black or Japanese or Irish or whatever then these words are off limits.
That is racist. It is racist because of the way words work as noted in the definition above.
There's an argument about the justification of racism that you can make if you want. For example, "It's ok for Coyote & Crow to be racist against its player base because it protects Native Americans."
Personally, I think that argument is a non-starter.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 24, 2022, 12:38:18 PM
If it's wrong for me it's wrong for her, that's called equality, but you're a fedora wearing wahmen respecter.
I didn't say it was wrong one way and wasn't wrong the other - I'm just pointing out that people worry about the
consequences of being mistreated differently. For myself, I'm not particularly worried about being mistreated because someone has judged me unfairly.
Quote from: Visitor Q on August 24, 2022, 12:41:16 PM
Instructing a real-life person that they cannot take on a role and play it how they wish within a rpg only because of their real-life ethnicity is racist. Note that we are not talking about context or stereotyping or experience.
You see, that's where I'm disagreeing. I'm pretty sure the guy is saying 'when you incorporate real world cultures, it's really easy to stereotype experience, thus it is best avoided'. It's clear based on your next quote that we don't agree on that.
Quote from: Visitor Q on August 24, 2022, 12:41:16 PM
The instruction is an absolute one. If you intend to play the game as the author intended you can't use any Native American words that aren't proper nouns if you are not Native American yourself. It doesn't matter if you are a professor in Indigenous-Languages, or fluent in them or have just done a hell of a lot of research if you are black or Japanese or Irish or whatever then these words are off limits.
This is advice in a gaming supplement, not a game rule. It does not say something like 'players that choose a real-life Indigenous culture can be punched by the other players' which would create an actual consequence
in play to this supposed rule. Like all rules in all rule books (and in fact, in keeping with other advice in the same chapter) it appears that the author is aware that not everyone is going to play the same way and there's room for that. Recommending you keep a door closed rather than exhaustively trying to define what you can and can't do on the other side to avoid being an asshole is different than saying something like 'even going through that door is grounds for execution'.
Me telling you
don't do something isn't the equivalent of me telling you that you
can't do something. AND it is phrased as a request - the author is clearly signaling his understanding that you have the option to ignore the request.
Quote from: deadDMwalking on August 24, 2022, 01:36:31 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 24, 2022, 12:38:18 PM
If it's wrong for me it's wrong for her, that's called equality, but you're a fedora wearing wahmen respecter.
I didn't say it was wrong one way and wasn't wrong the other - I'm just pointing out that people worry about the consequences of being mistreated differently. For myself, I'm not particularly worried about being mistreated because someone has judged me unfairly.
Quote from: Visitor Q on August 24, 2022, 12:41:16 PM
Instructing a real-life person that they cannot take on a role and play it how they wish within a rpg only because of their real-life ethnicity is racist. Note that we are not talking about context or stereotyping or experience.
You see, that's where I'm disagreeing. I'm pretty sure the guy is saying 'when you incorporate real world cultures, it's really easy to stereotype experience, thus it is best avoided'. It's clear based on your next quote that we don't agree on that.
Quote from: Visitor Q on August 24, 2022, 12:41:16 PM
The instruction is an absolute one. If you intend to play the game as the author intended you can't use any Native American words that aren't proper nouns if you are not Native American yourself. It doesn't matter if you are a professor in Indigenous-Languages, or fluent in them or have just done a hell of a lot of research if you are black or Japanese or Irish or whatever then these words are off limits.
This is advice in a gaming supplement, not a game rule. It does not say something like 'players that choose a real-life Indigenous culture can be punched by the other players' which would create an actual consequence in play to this supposed rule. Like all rules in all rule books (and in fact, in keeping with other advice in the same chapter) it appears that the author is aware that not everyone is going to play the same way and there's room for that. Recommending you keep a door closed rather than exhaustively trying to define what you can and can't do on the other side to avoid being an asshole is different than saying something like 'even going through that door is grounds for execution'.
Me telling you don't do something isn't the equivalent of me telling you that you can't do something. AND it is phrased as a request - the author is clearly signaling his understanding that you have the option to ignore the request.
Why would you cut the pertinent context? Could it be that ANYONE with a functioning brain would see that you're very much arguing for what I say you are?
Here, let me provide the relevant bit (again since you love to do that).
"
We could argue about whether someone like me should worry about a girl making fun of me (since I'm pretty large/strong/secure) the same way that a girl should worry about a guy making fun of her"
SDince you can't be arsed to argue in good faith and all you do is being a disngenuous twat don't bother answering. My following answers will be me autisticaly spaming the context you're intent on removing.
Quote from: deadDMwalking on August 24, 2022, 11:53:48 AM
...He specifically suggests 4 actions that players should not do:
1) Choose a real-world heritage
2) Choosing a two-spirit identity
3) inserting vocabulary from an Indigenous language if it isn't a proper noun or included in their guide
4) Speaking or acting in a fashion that mimics what are almost certainly negative stereotypes of Native Americans.
...
What's a two-spirit identity, and why can't I play that?
Quote from: deadDMwalking on August 24, 2022, 11:53:48 AM
...He specifically suggests 4 actions that players should not do:
1) Choose a real-world heritage
Only applies to white people playing indigenous people not the other way around or to indigenous people playing as indigenous people from a different tribe. Ergo it's singling out ONE group due to their race, ergo it's racist.
Quote from: deadDMwalking on August 24, 2022, 11:53:48 AM
2) Choosing a two-spirit identity
Only applies to white people playing indigenous people not the other way around or to indigenous people playing as indigenous people from a different tribe. Ergo it's singling out ONE group due to their race, ergo it's racist.
Quote from: deadDMwalking on August 24, 2022, 11:53:48 AM
3) inserting vocabulary from an Indigenous language if it isn't a proper noun or included in their guide
Only applies to white people playing indigenous people not the other way around or to indigenous people playing as indigenous people from a different tribe. Ergo it's singling out ONE group due to their race, ergo it's racist.
Quote from: deadDMwalking on August 24, 2022, 11:53:48 AM
4) Speaking or acting in a fashion that mimics what are almost certainly negative stereotypes of Native Americans.
Only applies to white people playing indigenous people not the other way around or to indigenous people playing as indigenous people from a different tribe. Ergo it's singling out ONE group due to their race, ergo it's racist.
Plus there's no inverse rule about not portraying ANY other race with stereotypes negative or not.
But Wokeman Walking will keep on deffending the racist POS that's the author of C&C either because he's "Native American" or because Wokeman Walking is also a racist POS.
Quote from: Aglondir on August 24, 2022, 10:19:07 PM
Quote from: deadDMwalking on August 24, 2022, 11:53:48 AM
...He specifically suggests 4 actions that players should not do:
1) Choose a real-world heritage
2) Choosing a two-spirit identity
3) inserting vocabulary from an Indigenous language if it isn't a proper noun or included in their guide
4) Speaking or acting in a fashion that mimics what are almost certainly negative stereotypes of Native Americans.
...
What's a two-spirit identity, and why can't I play that?
Being cray cray and believing you're an otherkin or you have headmates (voices in your head).
Quote from: deadDMwalking on August 24, 2022, 11:53:48 AM
...He specifically suggests 4 actions that players should not do:
1) Choose a real-world heritage
2) Choosing a two-spirit identity
3) inserting vocabulary from an Indigenous language if it isn't a proper noun or included in their guide
4) Speaking or acting in a fashion that mimics what are almost certainly negative stereotypes of Native Americans.
...
I can't stand all that 'walking on eggshells lark'.
Any reason you can't choose a real-world heritage?
A two-spirit?
Indigenous language... Why be so anal unless you are a native American? I'm not going to correct some tourists' use of improper use of the 'Irish' language. That would also apply to gamers. We butcher it constantly.
Negative stereotypes? Pretty much every game uses stereotypes good and bad. Italian Mafia... Irish Drunkards and bombers... Islamic terrorists... Corrupt Clergy. Again, it's only a game. I've no problem using stereotypes if it enhances the character and gaming experience. That's not to say I'd go out of my way to upset someone per se. These people really need to get a thicker skin. Now, if the 'intent' is to be cruel or just to piss everyone off, however, then that's a different thing and not something I'd support.
It's somewhat a moot point as this is not the game I'd play. And if I did I'd take a 'redacted' marker to that box of text and all the other nanny-state childish finger-wagging. The best way to deal with these people is just to totally ignore them and their products.
They can bleat day and night from the sidelines it makes no odds to me... ;D
PS - I'm too lazy to correct that stoopid quote thingey.
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on August 24, 2022, 10:44:55 PM
Quote from: Aglondir on August 24, 2022, 10:19:07 PM
Quote from: deadDMwalking on August 24, 2022, 11:53:48 AM
...He specifically suggests 4 actions that players should not do:
1) Choose a real-world heritage
2) Choosing a two-spirit identity
3) inserting vocabulary from an Indigenous language if it isn't a proper noun or included in their guide
4) Speaking or acting in a fashion that mimics what are almost certainly negative stereotypes of Native Americans.
...
I can't stand all that 'walking on eggshells lark'.
Any reason you can't choose a real-world heritage?
A two-spirit?
Indigenous language... Why be so anal unless you are a native American? I'm not going to correct some tourists' use of improper use of the 'Irish' language. That would also apply to gamers. We butcher it constantly.
Negative stereotypes? Pretty much every game uses stereotypes good and bad. Italian Mafia... Irish Drunkards and bombers... Islamic terrorists... Corrupt Clergy. Again, it's only a game. I've no problem using stereotypes if it enhances the character and gaming experience. That's not to say I'd go out of my way to upset someone per se. These people really need to get a thicker skin. Now, if the 'intent' is to be cruel or just to piss everyone off, however, then that's a different thing and not something I'd support.
It's somewhat a moot point as this is not the game I'd play. And if I did I'd take a 'redacted' marker to that box of text and all the other nanny-state childish finger-wagging. The best way to deal with these people is just to totally ignore them and their products.
They can bleat day and night from the sidelines it makes no odds to me... ;D
Greetings!
YEP! So true!
Load up the stereotypes! Whaa! Whaa!
This clown's nanny-state condescension makes me purposefully want to run a Coyote & Clown campaign, just to absolutely WRECK IT.
Open up a gateway in the North, and let Khorne come on in. Open a gateway in the South, and let Slaanesh sweep in. Lots of crazy orgies, bloody sacrifices, and epic genocide. Oh, and millions broken to the chains of slavery.
No escape. No mercy. ;D
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on August 24, 2022, 10:46:19 PM
PS - I'm too lazy to correct that stoopid quote thingey.
Hi Rob,
Would you mind fixing it? It looks like I said something that someone else said, when I only asked the question "What's a two-spirit identity, and why can't I play that?"
Thanks
Quote from: Aglondir on August 24, 2022, 10:54:51 PM
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on August 24, 2022, 10:46:19 PM
PS - I'm too lazy to correct that stoopid quote thingey.
Hi Rob,
Would you mind fixing it? It looks like I said it, when I only asked the question "What is two-spirit identity, and why can't I play one?"
Thanks
Uh... Sure. I'll try...
EDIT: Done.
Quote from: SHARK on August 24, 2022, 10:53:32 PM
Greetings!
YEP! So true!
Load up the stereotypes! Whaa! Whaa!
This clown's nanny-state condescension makes me purposefully want to run a Coyote & Clown campaign, just to absolutely WRECK IT.
Open up a gateway in the North, and let Khorne come on in. Open a gateway in the South, and let Slaanesh sweep in. Lots of crazy orgies, bloody sacrifices, and epic genocide. Oh, and millions broken to the chains of slavery.
No escape. No mercy. ;D
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Ha ha... Now that's a game I'd play Shark!! Right up my alley. ;D
Blood for the blood god!
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 24, 2022, 10:35:02 PM
Quote from: Aglondir on August 24, 2022, 10:19:07 PM
Quote from: deadDMwalking on August 24, 2022, 11:53:48 AM
...He specifically suggests 4 actions that players should not do:
1) Choose a real-world heritage
2) Choosing a two-spirit identity
3) inserting vocabulary from an Indigenous language if it isn't a proper noun or included in their guide
4) Speaking or acting in a fashion that mimics what are almost certainly negative stereotypes of Native Americans.
...
What's a two-spirit identity, and why can't I play that?
Being cray cray and believing you're an otherkin or you have headmates (voices in your head).
You are either lying, or misinformed.
Two-Spirit is a term for one Native American group's interpretation of what we call homosexuality and transgendered identity. At puberty, some Native tribes (the Sioux tribes definitely, I don't know about others) would offer each child a choice of path between the man's path and the woman's path. Almost all would follow the path of their biological sex, but every so often someone would choose the other path. These people were called Two-spirit and considered to be blessed by the Creator with both male and female spiritual energy, and were often put into roles that involved bridging gaps between groups: one of the most famous Sioux ambassadors to the US governmen was a Two-Spirit "princess" who the whites completely freaked out about when they discovered she had a cock and balls.
So, Connor doesn't want white-eyes pretending to be spiritually powerful t-girls (or t-bois). And yes, that's me being racist.
Quote from: ScytheSong on August 24, 2022, 11:10:49 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 24, 2022, 10:35:02 PM
Quote from: Aglondir on August 24, 2022, 10:19:07 PM
Quote from: deadDMwalking on August 24, 2022, 11:53:48 AM
...He specifically suggests 4 actions that players should not do:
1) Choose a real-world heritage
2) Choosing a two-spirit identity
3) inserting vocabulary from an Indigenous language if it isn't a proper noun or included in their guide
4) Speaking or acting in a fashion that mimics what are almost certainly negative stereotypes of Native Americans.
...
What's a two-spirit identity, and why can't I play that?
Being cray cray and believing you're an otherkin or you have headmates (voices in your head).
You are either lying, or misinformed.
Two-Spirit is a term for one Native American group's interpretation of what we call homosexuality and transgendered identity. At puberty, some Native tribes (the Sioux tribes definitely, I don't know about others) would offer each child a choice of path between the man's path and the woman's path. Almost all would follow the path of their biological sex, but every so often someone would choose the other path. These people were called Two-spirit and considered to be blessed by the Creator with both male and female spiritual energy, and were often put into roles that involved bridging gaps between groups: one of the most famous Sioux ambassadors to the US governmen was a Two-Spirit "princess" who the whites completely freaked out about when they discovered she had a cock and balls.
So, Connor doesn't want white-eyes pretending to be spiritually powerful t-girls (or t-bois). And yes, that's me being racist.
So they were either gay or cray cray and thought they were the other sex, got it.
Also, they discovered that HE had a cock and balls.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 24, 2022, 11:50:35 PM
So they were either gay or cray cray and thought they were the other sex, got it.
Also, they discovered that HE had a cock and balls.
Autistic idiot *was* the third option that I didn't include last time. If you can't handle the way other cultures handle things, why the hell do you like role-playing games?
Quote from: ScytheSong on August 24, 2022, 11:10:49 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 24, 2022, 10:35:02 PM
Quote from: Aglondir on August 24, 2022, 10:19:07 PM
Quote from: deadDMwalking on August 24, 2022, 11:53:48 AM
...He specifically suggests 4 actions that players should not do:
1) Choose a real-world heritage
2) Choosing a two-spirit identity
3) inserting vocabulary from an Indigenous language if it isn't a proper noun or included in their guide
4) Speaking or acting in a fashion that mimics what are almost certainly negative stereotypes of Native Americans.
...
What's a two-spirit identity, and why can't I play that?
Being cray cray and believing you're an otherkin or you have headmates (voices in your head).
You are either lying, or misinformed.
Two-Spirit is a term for one Native American group's interpretation of what we call homosexuality and transgendered identity. At puberty, some Native tribes (the Sioux tribes definitely, I don't know about others) would offer each child a choice of path between the man's path and the woman's path. Almost all would follow the path of their biological sex,
(https://i.giphy.com/media/UGba4CcQG8T9m/giphy.webp)
Quote from: ScytheSong on August 24, 2022, 11:10:49 PM
Two-Spirit is a term for one Native American group's interpretation of what we call homosexuality and transgendered identity. At puberty, some Native tribes (the Sioux tribes definitely, I don't know about others) would offer each child a choice of path between the man's path and the woman's path. Almost all would follow the path of their biological sex, but every so often someone would choose the other path.
So definitely in the minority then, there's a surprise!
There is an interview (https://www.enworld.org/threads/coyote-crow-stories-of-the-free-lands-an-interview-with-connor-alexander.690686/) with the Coyote and Crow creator at EnWorld.
Quote from: deadDMwalking on August 26, 2022, 01:50:38 PM
There is an interview (https://www.enworld.org/threads/coyote-crow-stories-of-the-free-lands-an-interview-with-connor-alexander.690686/) with the Coyote and Crow creator at EnWorld.
No, really?
https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/enworld-s-decay/ (https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/enworld-s-decay/)
Regarding the author's advice on non-native players not playing real-world identities.
1) Outside of Coyote & Crow, I've had a number of games where there were Native American PCs played by non-native players. I had a long-standing Vinland campaign set in an alternate history 1392 in the Northeast, and ran a larp based on earlier in that timeline at several local conventions. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. Thus, I don't consider this advice to be generic "don't be an asshole" or common sense.
2) Within C&C, playing a real-world identity - like playing a Lenape, say - isn't like playing a historical or modern-day character. Playing such a character inherently involves answering the question "What would Lenape culture be like if there were no European contact and instead they developed differently for 700 years?" That still doesn't mean I agree with the opinion, but it's dealing with sensitivity over an issue that's much more specific than just role-playing characters in general.
3) It doesn't seem like a big of a limitation on play. Non-native players can play any of the options that are in the book. The advice is just that they not go beyond what is in the book. The limit is more parallel to saying that you can't play a ninja in a D&D game. Yes, someone can play a Japanese ninja in a D&D game if the DM allows, but saying that you can't play a ninja (or other real-world imports) isn't a major limitation for players.
4) In any case, it's just a bit of author opinion. Game groups can do whatever they want.
Overall, this is a specific piece of advice. I don't advocate it, and I play differently in my own games unrelated to C&C. Still, if I were running C&C at a convention, I'd probably follow it because that's what players would be expecting.
Ultimately it doesn't matter
what the designer says, there's no way a Caucasian can safely engage this game publicly without risking attack from the existing 'fanbase'. The fact no direct analogues to real cultures exists doesn't matter as the aesthetic alone is problematic. These are the same people who think #BladeRunner fetishizes Asian culture. Now imagine replacing that with Native American inspired motifs.
Quote from: hedgehobbit on August 15, 2022, 12:09:02 PM
Didn't a YouTuber have to apologize just last year for role-playing a pre-generated Asian character in a live stream?
That would be Matt Mercer when he attempted to play a game written and run by award winning Black designer Chris Spivey (https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/i-told-you-so-dd-sjws-demand-you-don-t-play-other-races/msg1153299/#msg1153299).
Quote from: hedgehobbit on August 15, 2022, 12:09:02 PM
And this wasn't a one-time things. Here's an article from February of this year condemning Critical Role for setting a campaign in north Africa
https://www.kotaku.com.au/2022/02/the-problem-with-critical-roles-latest-campaign/
Oh look they're turning on Matt Mercer again. I wonder why.
Quote from: Osman Gazi on August 23, 2022, 01:34:22 PM
And the "Opportunities& Partnerships" at https://coyoteandcrow.net/2021/05/09/coyote-crow-creative-opportunities/ ? (https://coyoteandcrow.net/2021/05/09/coyote-crow-creative-opportunities/%20?) Love this racist part: "Non-Natives are welcome to apply for any positions that aren't called out as Native only positions." (emphasis added).
So, you gladly embrace racial discrimination in your employment? I hope someone sues this jerk, but I doubt if the EEOC would touch this with a ten foot pole. And on the same page, he's looking for Cosplayers? Gee, I'm sure he'll be fine with a Nordic blond hair-blue eyed dude with a gigantic beard cosplaying as a Native American. I'm sure he'd have no problem with that. [/SARCASM]
At least the Cosplay positions aren't labeled as "Native Only" 😜
Quote from: deadDMwalking on August 23, 2022, 07:34:32 PM
When you make fun of yourself, you usually have a lot of latitude. When you make fun of someone else, they're going to have a sense of humor about it until they don't. When you 'respectfully incorporate your understanding of a culture that you're not a part of' you can really help them have a good time - but you also risk doing something foolish or insulting that you weren't even aware of. That's a risk you're free to take, especially with your friends, but it's also a risk that the author shouldn't feel uncomfortable about highlighting.
Fair enough.
But now the designer is calling White people racist if they decide
not to take that risk.
Quote from: Osman Gazi on August 24, 2022, 09:55:31 AM
There is a giant exception to this very example: Drag Queens. They play up a slutty, over-sexualized stereotype of women. Yet they're rarely criticized on these grounds. Indeed, if a woman does criticize a Drag Queen as "appropriating femininity" , chances are they're going to be judged negatively for that.
On the contrary Drag Queens are actually quite despised among the woke intelligentsia. They're just tolerated because at the moment they're still somewhat useful to the cause.
Quote from: Anon Adderlan on August 26, 2022, 07:39:16 PMOn the contrary Drag Queens are actually quite despised among the woke intelligentsia. They're just tolerated because at the moment they're still somewhat useful to the cause.
Well the woke just hate EVERYTHING including their own. But within that power higharchy Drag Queens rate quite high. Thats why they are for them reading to children and such.
Quote from: Anon Adderlan on August 26, 2022, 07:39:16 PM
Quote from: deadDMwalking on August 23, 2022, 07:34:32 PM
When you make fun of yourself, you usually have a lot of latitude. When you make fun of someone else, they're going to have a sense of humor about it until they don't. When you 'respectfully incorporate your understanding of a culture that you're not a part of' you can really help them have a good time - but you also risk doing something foolish or insulting that you weren't even aware of. That's a risk you're free to take, especially with your friends, but it's also a risk that the author shouldn't feel uncomfortable about highlighting.
Fair enough.
But now the designer is calling White people racist if they decide not to take that risk.
In the blog post under discussion, he suggests that
if the only reason you're not willing to play this game is
because you are uncomfortable imagining yourself as a member of a different race, that's racist. There's lots of 'good reasons' not to play this game, like not finding the premise or setting interesting. I don't think playing a character of a different race is racist (at least, not inherently - you can absolutely take it to an extreme that is pretty offensive to some people); I think refusing to imagine what it might be like as someone with different life-experiences or skin color does sound a little intolerant.
Quote from: deadDMwalking on August 26, 2022, 08:10:40 PM
Quote from: Anon Adderlan on August 26, 2022, 07:39:16 PM
Quote from: deadDMwalking on August 23, 2022, 07:34:32 PM
When you make fun of yourself, you usually have a lot of latitude. When you make fun of someone else, they're going to have a sense of humor about it until they don't. When you 'respectfully incorporate your understanding of a culture that you're not a part of' you can really help them have a good time - but you also risk doing something foolish or insulting that you weren't even aware of. That's a risk you're free to take, especially with your friends, but it's also a risk that the author shouldn't feel uncomfortable about highlighting.
Fair enough.
But now the designer is calling White people racist if they decide not to take that risk.
In the blog post under discussion, he suggests that if the only reason you're not willing to play this game is because you are uncomfortable imagining yourself as a member of a different race, that's racist. There's lots of 'good reasons' not to play this game, like not finding the premise or setting interesting. I don't think playing a character of a different race is racist (at least, not inherently - you can absolutely take it to an extreme that is pretty offensive to some people); I think refusing to imagine what it might be like as someone with different life-experiences or skin color does sound a little intolerant.
That's a lie.
https://coyoteandcrow.net/2022/04/23/an-important-message-from-connor/#more-510 (https://coyoteandcrow.net/2022/04/23/an-important-message-from-connor/#more-510)
Quote from: deadDMwalking on August 26, 2022, 08:10:40 PM
I think refusing to imagine what it might be like as someone with different life-experiences or skin color does sound a little intolerant.
No, it is not. These are roleplaying games. Not wanting to think about these topics on game night does not make a person intolerant.
An example of intolerance would be wanting to control when and what a person thinks, and then labeling them when they resist or fail to comply.
Quote from: FingerRod on August 27, 2022, 08:15:13 AM
Quote from: deadDMwalking on August 26, 2022, 08:10:40 PM
I think refusing to imagine what it might be like as someone with different life-experiences or skin color does sound a little intolerant.
No, it is not. These are roleplaying games. Not wanting to think about these topics on game night does not make a person intolerant.
An example of intolerance would be wanting to control when and what a person thinks, and then labeling them when they resist or fail to comply.
Oh, kind of like what the author of Coyote and Crow did when trying to shame people into buying his game just to line his pockets even if they don't want to buy it?
Quote from: 3catcircus on August 27, 2022, 08:29:00 AM
Quote from: FingerRod on August 27, 2022, 08:15:13 AM
Quote from: deadDMwalking on August 26, 2022, 08:10:40 PM
I think refusing to imagine what it might be like as someone with different life-experiences or skin color does sound a little intolerant.
No, it is not. These are roleplaying games. Not wanting to think about these topics on game night does not make a person intolerant.
An example of intolerance would be wanting to control when and what a person thinks, and then labeling them when they resist or fail to comply.
Oh, kind of like what the author of Coyote and Crow did when trying to shame people into buying his game just to line his pockets even if they don't want to buy it?
How dare you! Coyote and Crow is offering to sell you an indulgence to free your white soul* from Woke Hell!
(*Apparently only white souls suffer from the original sin of being oppressive. However, the Woke can categorize people of Jewish and Asian descent as being white at their convenience.)
Quote from: wmarshal on August 27, 2022, 08:41:05 AM
Quote from: 3catcircus on August 27, 2022, 08:29:00 AM
Quote from: FingerRod on August 27, 2022, 08:15:13 AM
Quote from: deadDMwalking on August 26, 2022, 08:10:40 PM
I think refusing to imagine what it might be like as someone with different life-experiences or skin color does sound a little intolerant.
No, it is not. These are roleplaying games. Not wanting to think about these topics on game night does not make a person intolerant.
An example of intolerance would be wanting to control when and what a person thinks, and then labeling them when they resist or fail to comply.
Oh, kind of like what the author of Coyote and Crow did when trying to shame people into buying his game just to line his pockets even if they don't want to buy it?
How dare you! Coyote and Crow is offering to sell you an indulgence to free your white soul* from Woke Hell!
(*Apparently only white souls suffer from the original sin of being oppressive. However, the Woke can categorize people of Jewish and Asian descent as being white at their convenience.)
Speaking as a lad who was raised Roman Catholic, yeah, this really DOES stink of indulgences, doesn't it?
Let me go get a list of 95 better games so I can nail it to someone's door.
Quote from: wmarshal on August 27, 2022, 08:41:05 AM
Quote from: 3catcircus on August 27, 2022, 08:29:00 AM
Quote from: FingerRod on August 27, 2022, 08:15:13 AM
Quote from: deadDMwalking on August 26, 2022, 08:10:40 PM
I think refusing to imagine what it might be like as someone with different life-experiences or skin color does sound a little intolerant.
No, it is not. These are roleplaying games. Not wanting to think about these topics on game night does not make a person intolerant.
An example of intolerance would be wanting to control when and what a person thinks, and then labeling them when they resist or fail to comply.
Oh, kind of like what the author of Coyote and Crow did when trying to shame people into buying his game just to line his pockets even if they don't want to buy it?
How dare you! Coyote and Crow is offering to sell you an indulgence to free your white soul* from Woke Hell!
(*Apparently only white souls suffer from the original sin of being oppressive. However, the Woke can categorize people of Jewish and Asian descent as being white at their convenience.)
Inorite...
What a lot of people in the US (and other 1st world Western nations) completely fail to understand is just how non-racist we are as compared to the rest of the world. Going out of your way to proclaim racism when it doesn't actually exist is a 1st world problem.
I saw a recent tweet by an African-American. It was along the lines of "I own two houses and am a pilot living my dream career; if this is oppression, give me more of it."
When a minority college student or activist claims oppression due to systemic racism, all you have to do to fuck up that world view is point out that if systemic racism actually existed, they never would have been allowed to even apply to college or been allowed up on their soapbox.
Real racism? Ask the hutu and tutsi survivors. Go try and enter a no-gaijin bar or restaurant in Japan. Experience being ignored as the locals skip ahead of you at a deli counter in Seoul. Go try and illegally enter Mexico from Guatemala on your way to illegally enter the US. Go be a Filipino or Bangladeshi worker in Saudi or Qatar.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 26, 2022, 08:53:37 PM
Quote from: deadDMwalking on August 26, 2022, 08:10:40 PM
In the blog post under discussion, he suggests that if the only reason you're not willing to play this game is because you are uncomfortable imagining yourself as a member of a different race, that's racist. There's lots of 'good reasons' not to play this game, like not finding the premise or setting interesting. I don't think playing a character of a different race is racist (at least, not inherently - you can absolutely take it to an extreme that is pretty offensive to some people); I think refusing to imagine what it might be like as someone with different life-experiences or skin color does sound a little intolerant.
That's a lie.
Quote from: Connor
Look, if you don't want to play C&C because you're not into science fantasy or you think the rules are too crunchy, or you don't like d12s or alternate history RPGs aren't your thing – go on with your bad self. You do you. But if the only thing holding you back is that don't feel "comfortable" pretending to be a person with browner skin than you? Even when Indigenous folks are literally trying to offer you the game? Then you're the problem. Sort your shit.
I don't think quoting what he actually says makes me a liar.
Quote from: deadDMwalking on August 27, 2022, 12:20:33 PMI don't think quoting what he actually says makes me a liar.
Many things makes you a liar. Lies of omission are also lies.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on August 27, 2022, 12:22:49 PM
Quote from: deadDMwalking on August 27, 2022, 12:20:33 PMI don't think quoting what he actually says makes me a liar.
Many things makes you a liar. Lies of omission are also lies.
Exactly, cherrypicking a quote and pretending that that's ALL he has said about the game, white people playing it, etc. IS a lie by omission.
So, for those late to the party: The game has several pages about what a white person can or can't do, the woke have created a minefield around playing as someone from a different racew, to the point where you're racist if you do and racist if you don't.
Then, in the exact same post the author says: "WHITE PEOPLE: YOU CAN PLAY COYOTE & CROW
FFS.
Okay, let me get into this. First, if you're concerned that you shouldn't be playing Coyote & Crow, it's likely that you're a white person and you're worried that playing this game constitutes some form of cultural appropriation or that you would somehow misrepresent Indigenous people during your time playing the game.
I get that instinct. It likely comes from the fact that you're trying to be an ally to Indigenous folks, probably to POC in general. You're being "respectful."
Except – you're not. You're not being respectful when you refuse to play Coyote & Crow for that reason. You're not being an ally. You're being a shitty person and frankly, you're being a little racist. Feel free to gasp and fan yourself if you need to. When you've finished, please read on."
Recognizing the existence of said minefield, which would make anyone on his side uncomfortable of playing it. Only to proceed and condemning them for not risking it.
But Wokeman Walking is dead set on pretending this isn't so.
You quoting him saying what I say he's saying just reaffirms what he's saying. If you don't want to play the game because you're uncomfortable pretending to be a POC he thinks that's racist. If you don't want to play for any other reason, he doesn't think that is racist.
So that's what he says at the beginning and at the end. If your 9th grade English teacher were telling you about an essay they'd day something like 'tell them what you're going to say, then say it, then tell them what you told them'.
Quote from: deadDMwalking on August 27, 2022, 03:14:12 PM
You quoting him saying what I say he's saying just reaffirms what he's saying. If you don't want to play the game because you're uncomfortable pretending to be a POC he thinks that's racist. If you don't want to play for any other reason, he doesn't think that is racist.
I know it goes against your pretend narrative but he clearly says that if you are concerened about being accused of cutural appropriation that you are being "a little racist". Which is disingenuous since playing a Native American character in ANY OTHER GAME would get you accused of cultural appropriation as I and others have shown.
Of course that racists accusation is on top of the one where you are racists if you don't want to play a Native American character in a game.
Quote from: deadDMwalking on August 27, 2022, 03:14:12 PM
You quoting him saying what I say he's saying just reaffirms what he's saying. If you don't want to play the game because you're uncomfortable pretending to be a POC he thinks that's racist. If you don't want to play for any other reason, he doesn't think that is racist.
So that's what he says at the beginning and at the end. If your 9th grade English teacher were telling you about an essay they'd day something like 'tell them what you're going to say, then say it, then tell them what you told them'.
Once more because you're a little slow:
You wokescolds have created a minefield around pretending to be someone of a different race while playing elfgames. This is a fact.
The Author has what, 4 pages? of instructions about all the stuff you should avoid and shouldn't do IF you're a white person.
Then, in the same post where he's begging for more white devil's money he recognizes the existence of the minefield.
Only to say that if you don't want to risk stepping into a mine then you're a racist.
Fuck him for being a racist and fuck you for being a disingenuous twat.
Hey GeekyBugle, I'm not trying to tell you what to do but what I do with deadDMwalking is if I see a post by them I don't even read it. I just scroll on past. I've categorized them as one of the few trolls on this site that pretend they're being reasonable but....they're not. Really will help the blood pressure. And while I don't actively want to see them go away it might help them realize that they're really just being contrary because they like the attention they get. Or maybe they do like the attention they get. But it doesn't matter really.
QuoteThe Author has what, 4 pages? of instructions about all the stuff you should avoid and shouldn't do IF you're a white person.
I'm fairly certain this is completely wrong. It's two pages of instructions for indigenous players, then two more for non-indigenous. The four pages is the total amount of instructions for segregating your players.
I'm being sarcastic though. Even a paragraph would have been too much.
And I'll reiterate that I'll never play racistoyte & wokerow, not because I'm afraid of offending someone, but because the premise is racist and good ol white native made sure all white people knew they were racist.
Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on August 27, 2022, 03:38:29 PM
Hey GeekyBugle, I'm not trying to tell you what to do but what I do with deadDMwalking is if I see a post by them I don't even read it. I just scroll on past. I've categorized them as one of the few trolls on this site that pretend they're being reasonable but....they're not. Really will help the blood pressure. And while I don't actively want to see them go away it might help them realize that they're really just being contrary because they like the attention they get. Or maybe they do like the attention they get. But it doesn't matter really.
Not to worry, my blood pressure doesn't rise a bit. And their dishonesty needs to be adressed.
Quote from: 3catcircus on August 27, 2022, 09:09:38 AM
Quote from: wmarshal on August 27, 2022, 08:41:05 AM
Quote from: 3catcircus on August 27, 2022, 08:29:00 AM
Quote from: FingerRod on August 27, 2022, 08:15:13 AM
Quote from: deadDMwalking on August 26, 2022, 08:10:40 PM
I think refusing to imagine what it might be like as someone with different life-experiences or skin color does sound a little intolerant.
No, it is not. These are roleplaying games. Not wanting to think about these topics on game night does not make a person intolerant.
An example of intolerance would be wanting to control when and what a person thinks, and then labeling them when they resist or fail to comply.
Oh, kind of like what the author of Coyote and Crow did when trying to shame people into buying his game just to line his pockets even if they don't want to buy it?
How dare you! Coyote and Crow is offering to sell you an indulgence to free your white soul* from Woke Hell!
(*Apparently only white souls suffer from the original sin of being oppressive. However, the Woke can categorize people of Jewish and Asian descent as being white at their convenience.)
Inorite...
What a lot of people in the US (and other 1st world Western nations) completely fail to understand is just how non-racist we are as compared to the rest of the world. Going out of your way to proclaim racism when it doesn't actually exist is a 1st world problem.
I saw a recent tweet by an African-American. It was along the lines of "I own two houses and am a pilot living my dream career; if this is oppression, give me more of it."
When a minority college student or activist claims oppression due to systemic racism, all you have to do to fuck up that world view is point out that if systemic racism actually existed, they never would have been allowed to even apply to college or been allowed up on their soapbox.
Real racism? Ask the hutu and tutsi survivors. Go try and enter a no-gaijin bar or restaurant in Japan. Experience being ignored as the locals skip ahead of you at a deli counter in Seoul. Go try and illegally enter Mexico from Guatemala on your way to illegally enter the US. Go be a Filipino or Bangladeshi worker in Saudi or Qatar.
This post is off topic to this forum. This is a formal warning. Post off topic again and you could be banned.
Quote from: hedgehobbit on August 27, 2022, 03:26:07 PM
Quote from: deadDMwalking on August 27, 2022, 03:14:12 PM
You quoting him saying what I say he's saying just reaffirms what he's saying. If you don't want to play the game because you're uncomfortable pretending to be a POC he thinks that's racist. If you don't want to play for any other reason, he doesn't think that is racist.
I know it goes against your pretend narrative but he clearly says that if you are concerened about being accused of cutural appropriation that you are being "a little racist". Which is disingenuous since playing a Native American character in ANY OTHER GAME would get you accused of cultural appropriation as I and others have shown.
Of course that racists accusation is on top of the one where you are racists if you don't want to play a Native American character in a game.
Different people have different opinions about what constitutes "racist". That doesn't make the author Connor Alexander disingenuous or hypocritical. He has an opinion, and tries to make it clear. Other people here on this forum are calling him racist for that, and likewise, there will be other left-leaning and/or woke people who also disagree.
Celebrities like Matt Mercer who depend on their popularity for a living have to tread carefully about a lot of topics to keep their high popularity. But for ordinary gamers, it's not a big deal.
I've played and run lots of characters of Native American and other different ethnicities for years, running games at SF Bay area conventions which is woke central. I haven't had any significant problems. Someone somewhere has probably called me racist at points, but for me that isn't the end of the world. It's just them expressing their opinion. I get called worse than that all the time here on this forum.
More broadly than my personal experience, I feel like people who want to play games are happy to try out Native American and other non-European characters in games. Then there is a set of the perpetually outraged, which includes some people on the left but also plenty of people on this forum who are constantly outraged over judging the politics of games instead of playing what is enjoyable.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 27, 2022, 03:58:02 PM
Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on August 27, 2022, 03:38:29 PM
Hey GeekyBugle, I'm not trying to tell you what to do but what I do with deadDMwalking is if I see a post by them I don't even read it. I just scroll on past. I've categorized them as one of the few trolls on this site that pretend they're being reasonable but....they're not. Really will help the blood pressure. And while I don't actively want to see them go away it might help them realize that they're really just being contrary because they like the attention they get. Or maybe they do like the attention they get. But it doesn't matter really.
Not to worry, my blood pressure doesn't rise a bit. And their dishonesty needs to be adressed.
Bien, bien. Carry on hombre.
Quote from: jhkim on August 27, 2022, 08:51:51 PM
I've played and run lots of characters of Native American and other different ethnicities for years, running games at SF Bay area conventions which is woke central. I haven't had any significant problems. Someone somewhere has probably called me racist at points, but for me that isn't the end of the world. It's just them expressing their opinion. I get called worse than that all the time here on this forum.
Couple questions..
Receipts on what was bolded? Should have no problem producing multiple examples being called something worse than a racist.
Second, do you own and have you played C&C?
Quote from: FingerRod on August 27, 2022, 10:42:56 PM
Quote from: jhkim on August 27, 2022, 08:51:51 PM
I've played and run lots of characters of Native American and other different ethnicities for years, running games at SF Bay area conventions which is woke central. I haven't had any significant problems. Someone somewhere has probably called me racist at points, but for me that isn't the end of the world. It's just them expressing their opinion. I get called worse than that all the time here on this forum.
Couple questions..
Receipts on what was bolded? Should have no problem producing multiple examples being called something worse than a racist.
Second, do you own and have you played C&C?
Answering the second first. I didn't participate in the Kickstarter, but I have a copy of C&C that I got from my son. I've read about a scattered quarter of it - intro, a bit of background, chargen, action resolution, and the sample adventure and characters.
As for the first, looking over Pundit's forum, I was called a "genocide apologist" and "piece of shit" in the covid lockdowns thread (ref) (https://www.therpgsite.com/the-rpgpundit-s-own-forum/covid-the-lockdowns-etc/), and in the balkanization thread I was supposedly "a-okay with racial discrimination if it's against whitey" (ref) (https://www.therpgsite.com/the-rpgpundit-s-own-forum/it-s-time-for-the-usa-to-balkanize-how-can-that-happen-peacefully/).
Quote from: jhkim on August 28, 2022, 12:10:53 PM
Quote from: FingerRod on August 27, 2022, 10:42:56 PM
Quote from: jhkim on August 27, 2022, 08:51:51 PM
I've played and run lots of characters of Native American and other different ethnicities for years, running games at SF Bay area conventions which is woke central. I haven't had any significant problems. Someone somewhere has probably called me racist at points, but for me that isn't the end of the world. It's just them expressing their opinion. I get called worse than that all the time here on this forum.
Couple questions..
Receipts on what was bolded? Should have no problem producing multiple examples being called something worse than a racist.
Second, do you own and have you played C&C?
Answering the second first. I didn't participate in the Kickstarter, but I have a copy of C&C that I got from my son. I've read about a scattered quarter of it - intro, a bit of background, chargen, action resolution, and the sample adventure and characters.
As for the first, looking over Pundit's forum, I was called a "genocide apologist" and "piece of shit" in the covid lockdowns thread (ref) (https://www.therpgsite.com/the-rpgpundit-s-own-forum/covid-the-lockdowns-etc/), and in the balkanization thread I was supposedly "a-okay with racial discrimination if it's against whitey" (ref) (https://www.therpgsite.com/the-rpgpundit-s-own-forum/it-s-time-for-the-usa-to-balkanize-how-can-that-happen-peacefully/).
Thanks for answering my questions. So you are way ahead of me if you own the source material. I have only see the screenshots and the quotes. I cannot speak to what is in the product. I can speak to the public comments and practices of the owner. Based on those public comments, the title of this thread is not hyperbole. Well, I'm not sure if he has any regrets, as I am not in his head. But he did go around calling people the racists or "a little racist".
The inconsistency for me is with you claiming to be called worse than racist 'all the time' while defending what is clearly unhinged behavior from the creator of C&C. I have noticed that you have pretty thick skin and we've even locked it up a couple times. But I have not observed you routinely (as in all the time) being called things worse than racist.
I also cannot look through 250+ and 50+ Page threads to find the exact quotes and context, but I'll take all three instances at your word. The problem is, only one of them would be 'worse' than a racist, specifically, being called a genocidal apologist. Saying you are okay with discrimination is, at best, the same as racist. Being called a piece of shit is no where close.
Plus, your examples come from a non-gaming context in the non-gaming forum. Generally speaking, I avoid those topics. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes and all of that. But, C&C is talking to gamers about games. There should be a higher standard when addressing your customers.
That said, you do a remarkable job keeping your cool, and you deserve that same behavior in return. I will do my best to match you there.
Hey, FingerRod.
I think one problem here is that the label "racist" is used in vastly different ways. Sometimes, "racist" is used to imply someone who is explicitly a white supremacist. On the other hand, sometimes it's used for as little as unconscious bias - like being unconsciously somewhat less likely to say yes to a resume based on race, or less likely to make friends of another race.
So in retrospect, I shouldn't have talked about how often I get called worse than "racist" here - because I don't think that has a clear meaning.
To be more specific, to take from the opinion piece linked from the original post, suppose someone doesn't want to roleplay Native American characters, because they're Native American. That's not the equivalent of being a white supremacist. It's parallel to not liking movies that star Native Americans or novels written by them. Some would argue that it's a sign of prejudice, but the person might also defend that it's just a preference in entertainment and doesn't impact real-world people.
Quote from: FingerRod on August 29, 2022, 03:59:27 PM
So you are way ahead of me if you own the source material. I have only see the screenshots and the quotes. I cannot speak to what is in the product. I can speak to the public comments and practices of the owner. Based on those public comments, the title of this thread is not hyperbole. Well, I'm not sure if he has any regrets, as I am not in his head. But he did go around calling people the racists or "a little racist".
The inconsistency for me is with you claiming to be called worse than racist 'all the time' while defending what is clearly unhinged behavior from the creator of C&C. I have noticed that you have pretty thick skin and we've even locked it up a couple times. But I have not observed you routinely (as in all the time) being called things worse than racist.
In general, I have a thick skin (as you put it) - and I don't game for politics. I game for fun and interest. I have political causes, but I pursue them through avenues other than my gaming.
So in terms of my gaming, I don't much care what the C&C creator's politics are. I know that many people here choose their games based on the politics of the creator (hence Ocule's green/yellow/red lists), but that's not how I approach things. For me, I consider it inefficient in terms of gaining my political goals. I'll game to be creative and have fun, and I'll pursue politics on its own time.
Quote from: jhkim on August 31, 2022, 09:18:28 PM
Hey, FingerRod.
I think one problem here is that the label "racist" is used in vastly different ways. Sometimes, "racist" is used to imply someone who is explicitly a white supremacist. On the other hand, sometimes it's used for as little as unconscious bias - like being unconsciously somewhat less likely to say yes to a resume based on race, or less likely to make friends of another race.
So in retrospect, I shouldn't have talked about how often I get called worse than "racist" here - because I don't think that has a clear meaning.
To be more specific, to take from the opinion piece linked from the original post, suppose someone doesn't want to roleplay Native American characters, because they're Native American. That's not the equivalent of being a white supremacist. It's parallel to not liking movies that star Native Americans or novels written by them. Some would argue that it's a sign of prejudice, but the person might also defend that it's just a preference in entertainment and doesn't impact real-world people.
Quote from: FingerRod on August 29, 2022, 03:59:27 PM
So you are way ahead of me if you own the source material. I have only see the screenshots and the quotes. I cannot speak to what is in the product. I can speak to the public comments and practices of the owner. Based on those public comments, the title of this thread is not hyperbole. Well, I'm not sure if he has any regrets, as I am not in his head. But he did go around calling people the racists or "a little racist".
The inconsistency for me is with you claiming to be called worse than racist 'all the time' while defending what is clearly unhinged behavior from the creator of C&C. I have noticed that you have pretty thick skin and we've even locked it up a couple times. But I have not observed you routinely (as in all the time) being called things worse than racist.
In general, I have a thick skin (as you put it) - and I don't game for politics. I game for fun and interest. I have political causes, but I pursue them through avenues other than my gaming.
So in terms of my gaming, I don't much care what the C&C creator's politics are. I know that many people here choose their games based on the politics of the creator (hence Ocule's green/yellow/red lists), but that's not how I approach things. For me, I consider it inefficient in terms of gaining my political goals. I'll game to be creative and have fun, and I'll pursue politics on its own time.
Something NO ONE can prove it exists.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 31, 2022, 09:20:00 PM
Something NO ONE can prove it exists.
What standard of evidence are you looking for? There's a well documented
bias for people that seem similar to us. Why Do We Like People Who Are Similar to Us?
Research examines why we prefer people who are similar to us. (https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/close-encounters/201812/why-do-we-people-who-are-similar-us)
If you prefer people who are similar to you, conversely, you will not prefer people who are different from you. How is that different from 'unconscious bias'?
I received my copy of the core book on Sunday and I've been writing a review on the gaming den. The focus there tends to be on the mechanics, but overall, I think the game does what it sets out to do. It's playable as written; the dice mechanics are workable (if a bit gimmicky); there are some optimization options that are probably 'too good' but if groups agree to avoid those I think it can be a fun game and could be for some groups THE RPG that they play (as opposed to one of many that they jump to and from). It's relatively rules-light, and there are a couple of areas in the rules that lack clarity or appear to contradict other rules, but by and large they're minor.
Quote from: jhkim on August 31, 2022, 09:18:28 PM
I don't game for politics. I game for fun and interest. I have political causes, but I pursue them through avenues other than my gaming.
So in terms of my gaming, I don't much care what the C&C creator's politics are. I know that many people here choose their games based on the politics of the creator (hence Ocule's green/yellow/red lists), but that's not how I approach things. For me, I consider it inefficient in terms of gaining my political goals. I'll game to be creative and have fun, and I'll pursue politics on its own time.
Reality is a complete inversion of what you say. Most posters on here don't game for politics, which is precisely why they generally avoid games that promote extreme politics (e.g. MYFAROG, Coyote & Crow - both as racist as each other in my book). They do not choose games based on the politics of the creators, but do avoid those that promote extreme views that promote division and hate.
Quote from: Skullking on September 01, 2022, 09:26:00 AM
Quote from: jhkim on August 31, 2022, 09:18:28 PM
I don't game for politics. I game for fun and interest. I have political causes, but I pursue them through avenues other than my gaming.
So in terms of my gaming, I don't much care what the C&C creator's politics are. I know that many people here choose their games based on the politics of the creator (hence Ocule's green/yellow/red lists), but that's not how I approach things. For me, I consider it inefficient in terms of gaining my political goals. I'll game to be creative and have fun, and I'll pursue politics on its own time.
Reality is a complete inversion of what you say. Most posters on here don't game for politics, which is precisely why they generally avoid games that promote extreme politics (e.g. MYFAROG, Coyote & Crow - both as racist as each other in my book). They do not choose games based on the politics of the creators, but do avoid those that promote extreme views that promote division and hate.
We're not a monolith here - posters have a lot of different views. I didn't talk about "most", just "many". Some posters are like me and care about the content inside the game.
However, I think there are many posters who care about the politics of the creators. Maybe not most posters, but a significant fraction. There are often threads about a social media post by a creator that get a lot of attention.
Quote from: jhkim on August 31, 2022, 09:18:28 PM
I think one problem here is that the label "racist" is used in vastly different ways. Sometimes, "racist" is used to imply someone who is explicitly a white supremacist. On the other hand, sometimes it's used for as little as unconscious bias - like being unconsciously somewhat less likely to say yes to a resume based on race, or less likely to make friends of another race.
So in retrospect, I shouldn't have talked about how often I get called worse than "racist" here - because I don't think that has a clear meaning.
So, you are implying that the worst kind of racist is a white supremacist? Everything else is just a minor misconception based on stereotypes because only caucasians can be such vile racists?
Quote from: jeff37923 on September 01, 2022, 05:57:45 PM
Quote from: jhkim on August 31, 2022, 09:18:28 PM
I think one problem here is that the label "racist" is used in vastly different ways. Sometimes, "racist" is used to imply someone who is explicitly a white supremacist. On the other hand, sometimes it's used for as little as unconscious bias - like being unconsciously somewhat less likely to say yes to a resume based on race, or less likely to make friends of another race.
So in retrospect, I shouldn't have talked about how often I get called worse than "racist" here - because I don't think that has a clear meaning.
So, you are implying that the worst kind of racist is a white supremacist? Everything else is just a minor misconception based on stereotypes because only caucasians can be such vile racists?
Not at all. As I said, racism can mean many different things. I gave self-identified white supremacists as one example, but that doesn't imply I think that is the only serious racism. It was just one example among many possibilities.
Quote from: jeff37923 on September 01, 2022, 05:57:45 PM
So, you are implying that the worst kind of racist is a white supremacist?
I'll take up that position if it is helpful. In the United States (where I live), I think that white supremacists
are the worst kinds of racist. What kind of racist do you think is worse?
I'm going to base my position on number of people killed by hate groups (https://www.adl.org/murder-and-extremism-2021).
Quote
Most of the murders (26 of 29) were committed by right-wing extremists, which is usually the case. However, two killings were committed by Black nationalists and one by an Islamist extremist—the latter being the first such killing since 2018.
You know how many people were killed by playing Coyote & Crow? Best I can tell,
zero. That's even less than Mazes and Monsters (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mazes_and_Monsters).
Nah, responding to deadDMwalking is just an exercise in pseudointellectual wankery.
Quote from: deadDMwalking on September 01, 2022, 08:21:59 PM
Quote from: jeff37923 on September 01, 2022, 05:57:45 PM
So, you are implying that the worst kind of racist is a white supremacist?
I'll take up that position if it is helpful. In the United States (where I live), I think that white supremacists are the worst kinds of racist. What kind of racist do you think is worse?
I'm going to base my position on number of people killed by hate groups (https://www.adl.org/murder-and-extremism-2021).
Quote
Most of the murders (26 of 29) were committed by right-wing extremists, which is usually the case. However, two killings were committed by Black nationalists and one by an Islamist extremist—the latter being the first such killing since 2018.
Sure, because the ADL cherry-picks which groups they lable "extremist." Why isn't BLM on their list? Or Antifa? Ohhh, because then they'd need to admit that the majority of "extremist-related killings" in 2020/2021 were done by Leftwing extremists.
Also, nice bait-&-switch there. Saying "white supremecists" are the biggest threat, then posting an article that lists extremism in general. I can see now why people call you a disingenous twat.
QuoteYou know how many people were killed by playing Coyote & Crow? Best I can tell, zero.
That's because any percentage of zero is going to be zero.
Quote from: jhkim on September 01, 2022, 04:36:13 PM
Quote from: Skullking on September 01, 2022, 09:26:00 AM
Quote from: jhkim on August 31, 2022, 09:18:28 PM
I don't game for politics. I game for fun and interest. I have political causes, but I pursue them through avenues other than my gaming.
So in terms of my gaming, I don't much care what the C&C creator's politics are. I know that many people here choose their games based on the politics of the creator (hence Ocule's green/yellow/red lists), but that's not how I approach things. For me, I consider it inefficient in terms of gaining my political goals. I'll game to be creative and have fun, and I'll pursue politics on its own time.
Reality is a complete inversion of what you say. Most posters on here don't game for politics, which is precisely why they generally avoid games that promote extreme politics (e.g. MYFAROG, Coyote & Crow - both as racist as each other in my book). They do not choose games based on the politics of the creators, but do avoid those that promote extreme views that promote division and hate.
We're not a monolith here - posters have a lot of different views. I didn't talk about "most", just "many". Some posters are like me and care about the content inside the game.
However, I think there are many posters who care about the politics of the creators. Maybe not most posters, but a significant fraction. There are often threads about a social media post by a creator that get a lot of attention.
Reality is a complete inversion of what you say.
Most Many posters on here don't game for politics, which is precisely why they generally avoid games that promote extreme politics (e.g. MYFAROG, Coyote & Crow - both as racist as each other in my book). They do not choose games based on the politics of the creators, but do avoid those that promote extreme views that promote division and hate.
Fixed it for you.
Quote from: Skullking on September 02, 2022, 05:01:05 AM
Quote from: jhkim on September 01, 2022, 04:36:13 PM
We're not a monolith here - posters have a lot of different views. I didn't talk about "most", just "many". Some posters are like me and care about the content inside the game.
However, I think there are many posters who care about the politics of the creators. Maybe not most posters, but a significant fraction. There are often threads about a social media post by a creator that get a lot of attention.
Reality is a complete inversion of what you say. Most Many posters on here don't game for politics, which is precisely why they generally avoid games that promote extreme politics (e.g. MYFAROG, Coyote & Crow - both as racist as each other in my book). They do not choose games based on the politics of the creators, but do avoid those that promote extreme views that promote division and hate.
Fixed it for you.
Cool. Are we disagreeing, then? It can both be true that there are many posters who don't care about the politics of the creators, and also many posters who do care about the politics of the creators.
Quote from: jhkim on August 31, 2022, 09:18:28 PM
... I game for fun and interest. I have political causes, but I pursue them through avenues other than my gaming.
So in terms of my gaming, I don't much care what the C&C creator's politics are. I know that many people here choose their games based on the politics of the creator (hence Ocule's green/yellow/red lists), but that's not how I approach things. For me, I consider it inefficient in terms of gaining my political goals. I'll game to be creative and have fun, and I'll pursue politics on its own time.
But that's not really the issue here. No one cares what you do, or do not do, at the table (except for Kimosabi Conner). The issue is entirely a moral judgment call on whether someone wants to support a company that takes poltical action outside of the game. Ocule's list reserved primarily for politics
within a product, but as some have pointed out in that thread, that may be too narrow a margin.
Consider this: would you buy shoes from a company that you KNOW exploits child labor? Or a cosmetic that's been tested on animals?
Isn't the "important" thing whether the product is comfortable, well-made, and reasonably priced? Who cares who actually makes them, or how it was tested, right? Yet people makes buying-decisions based on these criteria everyday. Are they wrong for doing so? If not, why would it be wrong to not buy a game (that someone might otherwise like) because the creator supports causes that person disagrees with? Just look what happened with My Pillow, or any of the literally dozens (if not hundreds) of boycotts the Progressive Left have organized over the last 5 years. They weren't boycotting because the pillows were made in a third-world sweatshop (they weren't), they boycotted because the owner said things they didn't agree with.
There's no difference here. People are going to buy or not buy a product for reasons entirely independent of the product itself. Its always been that way, and gaming is no exception.
Quote from: jhkim on September 02, 2022, 01:47:27 PM
Quote from: Skullking on September 02, 2022, 05:01:05 AM
Quote from: jhkim on September 01, 2022, 04:36:13 PM
We're not a monolith here - posters have a lot of different views. I didn't talk about "most", just "many". Some posters are like me and care about the content inside the game.
However, I think there are many posters who care about the politics of the creators. Maybe not most posters, but a significant fraction. There are often threads about a social media post by a creator that get a lot of attention.
Reality is a complete inversion of what you say. Most Many posters on here don't game for politics, which is precisely why they generally avoid games that promote extreme politics (e.g. MYFAROG, Coyote & Crow - both as racist as each other in my book). They do not choose games based on the politics of the creators, but do avoid those that promote extreme views that promote division and hate.
Fixed it for you.
Cool. Are we disagreeing, then? It can both be true that there are many posters who don't care about the politics of the creators, and also many posters who do care about the politics of the creators.
If I understand your take correctly - it is that those that game for fun and interest don't care about the politics of the creators.
I'm saying that many on this forum that game for fun and interest do care about the politics of the creators, as they don't want that shit infecting what should be a fun hobby. They do not want to support those creators because they want the hobby to be fun and not a political shit show.
I think our two takes are different.
Quote from: Effete on September 01, 2022, 11:58:17 PM
Quote from: deadDMwalking on September 01, 2022, 08:21:59 PM
Quote from: jeff37923 on September 01, 2022, 05:57:45 PM
So, you are implying that the worst kind of racist is a white supremacist?
I'll take up that position if it is helpful. In the United States (where I live), I think that white supremacists are the worst kinds of racist. What kind of racist do you think is worse?
I'm going to base my position on number of people killed by hate groups (https://www.adl.org/murder-and-extremism-2021).
Quote
Most of the murders (26 of 29) were committed by right-wing extremists, which is usually the case. However, two killings were committed by Black nationalists and one by an Islamist extremist—the latter being the first such killing since 2018.
Sure, because the ADL cherry-picks which groups they lable "extremist." Why isn't BLM on their list? Or Antifa? Ohhh, because then they'd need to admit that the majority of "extremist-related killings" in 2020/2021 were done by Leftwing extremists.
Also, nice bait-&-switch there. Saying "white supremecists" are the biggest threat, then posting an article that lists extremism in general. I can see now why people call you a disingenous twat.
QuoteYou know how many people were killed by playing Coyote & Crow? Best I can tell, zero.
That's because any percentage of zero is going to be zero.
Snap. I was going to do a bit about the same number of people who were entertained by Coyote & Crow but you got there.
Quote from: jeff37923 on September 01, 2022, 09:07:26 PM
Nah, responding to deadDMwalking is just an exercise in pseudointellectual wankery.
You give him far too much credit.
JHKIM at least comes at these things from a far far far far more grounded standpoint. The problem is his head has been stuffed with SJW brainwashing and, like me, has pretty much had it with the knee-jerk reactions round here. And hes more than a little bit of a pollyanna. And has a slight tendency to fail to see the forest (fire) for the trees.
I would rather take a dozen JHKIMs to one of these hatemongers. Lies wrapped in truths and half truths.
Quote from: Omega on September 02, 2022, 05:52:24 PM
JHKIM at least comes at these things from a far far far far more grounded standpoint. The problem is his head has been stuffed with SJW brainwashing and, like me, has pretty much had it with the knee-jerk reactions round here. And hes more than a little bit of a pollyanna. And has a slight tendency to fail to see the forest (fire) for the trees.
From my point of view, I feel like there are regularly calls of histrionic and perpetual outrage here, and what you call "pollyanna" is my describing of my real-life experience of actual play in the SF Bay area, which is one of the most liberal areas in the country. So if actual gaming was experiencing a giant calamity because of "woke" influence, then presumably I'd see it in the 4+ local gaming conventions I go to each year.
I realize that people here tend to call others the "Outrage Brigade", but I see far more outrage here than in the SF Bay area gamers that I actually play with.
Regarding Coyote & Crow, I think very few people will actually play it. As I said, from reading it, it seems to have a more difficult learning curve than Tekumel - which has a small cult following but also has little actual play. A bunch of people were intrigued by the concept, but the actual play takes too much learning to get into. There have been a bunch of other RPGs in the past briefly lauded for intriguing premise, but little actual play. I'd compare it to the indie RPGs Steal Away Jordan and Kagematsu.
Quote from: jhkim on September 03, 2022, 04:50:37 PM
As I said, from reading it, it seems to have a more difficult learning curve than Tekumel
A steeper learning curve than Tekumel is no small feat. Damn.
Quote from: jhkim on September 03, 2022, 04:50:37 PM
Regarding Coyote & Crow, I think very few people will actually play it. As I said, from reading it, it seems to have a more difficult learning curve than Tekumel - which has a small cult following but also has little actual play. A bunch of people were intrigued by the concept, but the actual play takes too much learning to get into. There have been a bunch of other RPGs in the past briefly lauded for intriguing premise, but little actual play. I'd compare it to the indie RPGs Steal Away Jordan and Kagematsu.
I read
Coyote and Crow cover to cover in less than a week (while working full time and handling shuttling kids to and from school, housework, and other hobby activities. I've written a full review focused on what I saw as faulty mechanics, and I identified a lot of things that I think they could have done
slightly better. But it's a really easy game to learn. It's also a fairly rules light game, so the only one who really needs to learn the game is the Story Guide (SG).
As a player, basically everything you do involves rolling a Dice Pool (all d12) and counting successes. The SG will tell you what you need to roll to count as a success (the default is 8, but some things are easier and might be a 5+ and some things are harder, so they might be an 11+. The dice pool you use is almost always Attribute + Skill. For any skill, you'll include your attribute right on the character sheet, so it's clear how many dice you're rolling. Rarely, you use a custom pool (like Stat + Stat), which is pretty easy since your stats are written as well. Likewise, you may get bonus dice from equipment, but that'll be a regular feature of play. Basically, if you attack with a spear once, you're going to know how to build and roll an attack with a spear (or just about any other action) for the future.
Although the game is almost 500 pages long, the text is very large. They probably could have gotten it into half that many pages and kept it very legible.
I don't think complexity is an issue. I do think
distribution is. Currently it's available on their website and Amazon. I didn't see it at Barnes & Noble, and I haven't had a chance to go to multiple game stores. But I actually think that it's a really good game for a beginner. It's relatively rules-lite, and the focus is on building a story. As an example, a character
cannot die unless the player agrees to it. Now I understand that a lot of people LIKE frequent character death, but this game is definitely targeting a different play demographic. Getting it into bookstores rather than gaming stores would do a lot to help it take off. Like OD&D, it ought to be in Toy Stores (if any of those still existed).
Quote from: deadDMwalking on September 03, 2022, 09:44:42 PM
Quote from: jhkim on September 03, 2022, 04:50:37 PM
Regarding Coyote & Crow, I think very few people will actually play it. As I said, from reading it, it seems to have a more difficult learning curve than Tekumel - which has a small cult following but also has little actual play. A bunch of people were intrigued by the concept, but the actual play takes too much learning to get into. There have been a bunch of other RPGs in the past briefly lauded for intriguing premise, but little actual play. I'd compare it to the indie RPGs Steal Away Jordan and Kagematsu.
I read Coyote and Crow cover to cover in less than a week (while working full time and handling shuttling kids to and from school, housework, and other hobby activities. I've written a full review focused on what I saw as faulty mechanics, and I identified a lot of things that I think they could have done slightly better. But it's a really easy game to learn. It's also a fairly rules light game, so the only one who really needs to learn the game is the Story Guide (SG).
As a player, basically everything you do involves rolling a Dice Pool (all d12) and counting successes. The SG will tell you what you need to roll to count as a success (the default is 8, but some things are easier and might be a 5+ and some things are harder, so they might be an 11+. The dice pool you use is almost always Attribute + Skill. For any skill, you'll include your attribute right on the character sheet, so it's clear how many dice you're rolling. Rarely, you use a custom pool (like Stat + Stat), which is pretty easy since your stats are written as well. Likewise, you may get bonus dice from equipment, but that'll be a regular feature of play. Basically, if you attack with a spear once, you're going to know how to build and roll an attack with a spear (or just about any other action) for the future.
Although the game is almost 500 pages long, the text is very large. They probably could have gotten it into half that many pages and kept it very legible.
I don't think complexity is an issue. I do think distribution is. Currently it's available on their website and Amazon. I didn't see it at Barnes & Noble, and I haven't had a chance to go to multiple game stores. But I actually think that it's a really good game for a beginner. It's relatively rules-lite, and the focus is on building a story. As an example, a character cannot die unless the player agrees to it. Now I understand that a lot of people LIKE frequent character death, but this game is definitely targeting a different play demographic. Getting it into bookstores rather than gaming stores would do a lot to help it take off. Like OD&D, it ought to be in Toy Stores (if any of those still existed).
Distribution isn't an issue when customers are seeking out the product - they'll find a way to get it - it isn't like customers are badgering Barnes & Noble to stock it. It's an issue when they're choosing not to buy it because the author is an ass who told them they were racists if they didn't buy it while at the same time lecturing them on badwrongfun if they buy it and play it - no amount of distribution will change that fact.
Quote from: jhkim on September 03, 2022, 04:50:37 PM
Quote from: Omega on September 02, 2022, 05:52:24 PM
JHKIM at least comes at these things from a far far far far more grounded standpoint. The problem is his head has been stuffed with SJW brainwashing and, like me, has pretty much had it with the knee-jerk reactions round here. And hes more than a little bit of a pollyanna. And has a slight tendency to fail to see the forest (fire) for the trees.
From my point of view, I feel like there are regularly calls of histrionic and perpetual outrage here, and what you call "pollyanna" is my describing of my real-life experience of actual play in the SF Bay area, which is one of the most liberal areas in the country. So if actual gaming was experiencing a giant calamity because of "woke" influence, then presumably I'd see it in the 4+ local gaming conventions I go to each year.
I realize that people here tend to call others the "Outrage Brigade", but I see far more outrage here than in the SF Bay area gamers that I actually play with.
Regarding Coyote & Crow, I think very few people will actually play it. As I said, from reading it, it seems to have a more difficult learning curve than Tekumel - which has a small cult following but also has little actual play. A bunch of people were intrigued by the concept, but the actual play takes too much learning to get into. There have been a bunch of other RPGs in the past briefly lauded for intriguing premise, but little actual play. I'd compare it to the indie RPGs Steal Away Jordan and Kagematsu.
So you play games with leftist progressives, you are a leftist progressive, in a part of the nation that is the most leftist progressive and see very little "outrage". Well its because you are all of the same mind and the same bent politically. I have no doubts you are not going to hear outrage at a game table, because you are all of the same bent. You are always surrounded by people who know and will follow "the rules".
Quote from: oggsmash on September 04, 2022, 02:47:14 PM
Quote from: jhkim on September 03, 2022, 04:50:37 PM
Quote from: Omega on September 02, 2022, 05:52:24 PM
JHKIM at least comes at these things from a far far far far more grounded standpoint. The problem is his head has been stuffed with SJW brainwashing and, like me, has pretty much had it with the knee-jerk reactions round here. And hes more than a little bit of a pollyanna. And has a slight tendency to fail to see the forest (fire) for the trees.
From my point of view, I feel like there are regularly calls of histrionic and perpetual outrage here, and what you call "pollyanna" is my describing of my real-life experience of actual play in the SF Bay area, which is one of the most liberal areas in the country. So if actual gaming was experiencing a giant calamity because of "woke" influence, then presumably I'd see it in the 4+ local gaming conventions I go to each year.
I realize that people here tend to call others the "Outrage Brigade", but I see far more outrage here than in the SF Bay area gamers that I actually play with.
Regarding Coyote & Crow, I think very few people will actually play it. As I said, from reading it, it seems to have a more difficult learning curve than Tekumel - which has a small cult following but also has little actual play. A bunch of people were intrigued by the concept, but the actual play takes too much learning to get into. There have been a bunch of other RPGs in the past briefly lauded for intriguing premise, but little actual play. I'd compare it to the indie RPGs Steal Away Jordan and Kagematsu.
So you play games with leftist progressives, you are a leftist progressive, in a part of the nation that is the most leftist progressive and see very little "outrage". Well its because you are all of the same mind and the same bent politically. I have no doubts you are not going to hear outrage at a game table, because you are all of the same bent. You are always surrounded by people who know and will follow "the rules".
I believe the term you're looking for is "echo chamber."
I find it very telling that there are people who were former leftists who've claimed they haven't moved right, but that the left has moved further left. When you are that proverbial frog in the pot, you never notice that unless you do some serious introspection - something most leftists are incapable of.
Quote from: 3catcircus on September 04, 2022, 03:32:17 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on September 04, 2022, 02:47:14 PM
Quote from: jhkim on September 03, 2022, 04:50:37 PM
Quote from: Omega on September 02, 2022, 05:52:24 PM
JHKIM at least comes at these things from a far far far far more grounded standpoint. The problem is his head has been stuffed with SJW brainwashing and, like me, has pretty much had it with the knee-jerk reactions round here. And hes more than a little bit of a pollyanna. And has a slight tendency to fail to see the forest (fire) for the trees.
From my point of view, I feel like there are regularly calls of histrionic and perpetual outrage here, and what you call "pollyanna" is my describing of my real-life experience of actual play in the SF Bay area, which is one of the most liberal areas in the country. So if actual gaming was experiencing a giant calamity because of "woke" influence, then presumably I'd see it in the 4+ local gaming conventions I go to each year.
I realize that people here tend to call others the "Outrage Brigade", but I see far more outrage here than in the SF Bay area gamers that I actually play with.
Regarding Coyote & Crow, I think very few people will actually play it. As I said, from reading it, it seems to have a more difficult learning curve than Tekumel - which has a small cult following but also has little actual play. A bunch of people were intrigued by the concept, but the actual play takes too much learning to get into. There have been a bunch of other RPGs in the past briefly lauded for intriguing premise, but little actual play. I'd compare it to the indie RPGs Steal Away Jordan and Kagematsu.
So you play games with leftist progressives, you are a leftist progressive, in a part of the nation that is the most leftist progressive and see very little "outrage". Well its because you are all of the same mind and the same bent politically. I have no doubts you are not going to hear outrage at a game table, because you are all of the same bent. You are always surrounded by people who know and will follow "the rules".
I believe the term you're looking for is "echo chamber."
I find it very telling that there are people who were former leftists who've claimed they haven't moved right, but that the left has moved further left. When you are that proverbial frog in the pot, you never notice that unless you do some serious introspection - something most leftists are incapable of.
After you already received a previous warning, you made this post that is not actually within the specific subject matter of the topic. You didn't veer into other political discussion with it, so I'm giving you one more chance: do NOT post in this thread again, and do not post off-topic in any other thread on the RPG discussion subforum. If you do, you will be permanently banned.
Quote from: deadDMwalking on September 03, 2022, 09:44:42 PM
I don't think complexity is an issue. I do think distribution is. Currently it's available on their website and Amazon. I didn't see it at Barnes & Noble, and I haven't had a chance to go to multiple game stores.
As an anecdote, it's at my local gaming store/pub. On top of the counter on display.
But I live in the pacific northwest, the pub is pretty vocal about it's "progressive" left leaning attitudes. (Pride flags, notices about how it's an "inclusive" store, "Gayme Night" (their wording)etc)
So I've seen it in hardcopy at the game store, but it's the kind of RPG I'd think this specific store would seek out to stock.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on September 04, 2022, 09:00:01 PM
Quote from: deadDMwalking on September 03, 2022, 09:44:42 PM
I don't think complexity is an issue. I do think distribution is. Currently it's available on their website and Amazon. I didn't see it at Barnes & Noble, and I haven't had a chance to go to multiple game stores.
As an anecdote, it's at my local gaming store/pub. On top of the counter on display.
But I live in the pacific northwest, the pub is pretty vocal about it's "progressive" left leaning attitudes. (Pride flags, notices about how it's an "inclusive" store, "Gayme Night" (their wording)etc)
So I've seen it in hardcopy at the game store, but it's the kind of RPG I'd think this specific store would seek out to stock.
It was in my game store as well. I have to go back and see if they have Savage pathfinder now that it has been released to stores, because IMO if they are stocking it and not SW pathfinder....they are just making bad choices.
I saw three copies at the convention (DragonCon) here, sitting on a vendor table. Don't know if there were any takers.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on September 05, 2022, 03:45:08 PM
I saw three copies at the convention (DragonCon) here, sitting on a vendor table. Don't know if there were any takers.
I saw it at a local game store in greater Atlanta this weekend, but they generally have a rack full of trendy stuff. It was on that.
I passed and bought the last two books I didn't have for
Never Coming Home...well, passed implied I considered it which isn't quite true, but I did see it.
Quote from: deadDMwalking on September 03, 2022, 09:44:42 PM
Quote from: jhkim on September 03, 2022, 04:50:37 PM
Regarding Coyote & Crow, I think very few people will actually play it. As I said, from reading it, it seems to have a more difficult learning curve than Tekumel - which has a small cult following but also has little actual play. A bunch of people were intrigued by the concept, but the actual play takes too much learning to get into. There have been a bunch of other RPGs in the past briefly lauded for intriguing premise, but little actual play. I'd compare it to the indie RPGs Steal Away Jordan and Kagematsu.
As a player, basically everything you do involves rolling a Dice Pool (all d12) and counting successes.
...
Although the game is almost 500 pages long, the text is very large. They probably could have gotten it into half that many pages and kept it very legible.
I don't think complexity is an issue. I do think distribution is.
To clarify, the rules mechanics aren't the main part of the learning curve. The biggest problem is in learning the background. It is a science fiction game where the PCs are educated members of a complex technological society, who also have psychic powers. The background is very densely written, describing a very unfamiliar world. None of the setting matches with familiar genres or history. As an example, if I were to run a chase scene in Cahokia, it seems very difficult to run. What sort of obstacles are there? What vehicle options? Can the target dodge onto a train? Are there turnstiles or similar?
Quote from: oggsmash on September 04, 2022, 02:47:14 PM
So you play games with leftist progressives, you are a leftist progressive, in a part of the nation that is the most leftist progressive and see very little "outrage". Well its because you are all of the same mind and the same bent politically. I have no doubts you are not going to hear outrage at a game table, because you are all of the same bent. You are always surrounded by people who know and will follow "the rules".
You're claiming that an echo chamber means that there's no outrage. There have been plenty of threads here where the left-leaning posters are absent - which are still full of outrage. Likewise, there are plenty of left-leaning gaming echo chambers (like some Twitter threads and RPGnet) that have plenty of outrage against conservatives. If anything, I think echo chambers are more prone to outrage - as they unite in outrage against the other side.
The difference is whether the community is focused on actual gaming.
Local game store here had one copy on the shelf of the four that they ordered.
Quote from: jhkim on September 07, 2022, 03:46:32 PM
Quote from: deadDMwalking on September 03, 2022, 09:44:42 PM
Quote from: jhkim on September 03, 2022, 04:50:37 PM
Regarding Coyote & Crow, I think very few people will actually play it. As I said, from reading it, it seems to have a more difficult learning curve than Tekumel - which has a small cult following but also has little actual play. A bunch of people were intrigued by the concept, but the actual play takes too much learning to get into. There have been a bunch of other RPGs in the past briefly lauded for intriguing premise, but little actual play. I'd compare it to the indie RPGs Steal Away Jordan and Kagematsu.
As a player, basically everything you do involves rolling a Dice Pool (all d12) and counting successes.
...
Although the game is almost 500 pages long, the text is very large. They probably could have gotten it into half that many pages and kept it very legible.
I don't think complexity is an issue. I do think distribution is.
To clarify, the rules mechanics aren't the main part of the learning curve. The biggest problem is in learning the background. It is a science fiction game where the PCs are educated members of a complex technological society, who also have psychic powers. The background is very densely written, describing a very unfamiliar world. None of the setting matches with familiar genres or history. As an example, if I were to run a chase scene in Cahokia, it seems very difficult to run. What sort of obstacles are there? What vehicle options? Can the target dodge onto a train? Are there turnstiles or similar?
Quote from: oggsmash on September 04, 2022, 02:47:14 PM
So you play games with leftist progressives, you are a leftist progressive, in a part of the nation that is the most leftist progressive and see very little "outrage". Well its because you are all of the same mind and the same bent politically. I have no doubts you are not going to hear outrage at a game table, because you are all of the same bent. You are always surrounded by people who know and will follow "the rules".
You're claiming that an echo chamber means that there's no outrage. There have been plenty of threads here where the left-leaning posters are absent - which are still full of outrage. Likewise, there are plenty of left-leaning gaming echo chambers (like some Twitter threads and RPGnet) that have plenty of outrage against conservatives. If anything, I think echo chambers are more prone to outrage - as they unite in outrage against the other side.
The difference is whether the community is focused on actual gaming.
No, I think you would be unreliable reporting outrage in that environment. I think there could be a lot or zero. You just would not be the person I would expect a fair measure of it from.
Quote from: jhkim on September 03, 2022, 04:50:37 PM
From my point of view, I feel like there are regularly calls of histrionic and perpetual outrage here, and what you call "pollyanna" is my describing of my real-life experience of actual play in the SF Bay area, which is one of the most liberal areas in the country. So if actual gaming was experiencing a giant calamity because of "woke" influence, then presumably I'd see it in the 4+ local gaming conventions I go to each year.
I realize that people here tend to call others the "Outrage Brigade", but I see far more outrage here than in the SF Bay area gamers that I actually play with.
Regarding Coyote & Crow, I think very few people will actually play it. As I said, from reading it, it seems to have a more difficult learning curve than Tekumel - which has a small cult following but also has little actual play. A bunch of people were intrigued by the concept, but the actual play takes too much learning to get into. There have been a bunch of other RPGs in the past briefly lauded for intriguing premise, but little actual play. I'd compare it to the indie RPGs Steal Away Jordan and Kagematsu.
1: Your experience then is alot better than mine. Locally I have seen it creeping into the local players rhetoric and at least one of my local gaming group makes Deadman look reasonable. At least two artists I know have totally flipped out.
2: I agree here. Theres been a tendency to storm-in-a-teacup a bit much here. And sometimes over the smallest of things. But as noted many a time. Often its something small that somehow, some way comes back to bite you later. I just think theres too much outrage over what abounts to really nothing and not enough outrage over more glaring issues.
The other problem is that theres incessant baiting now to get these reactions.
And the other other problem is that often the outrage is directed at known instigators. After a while it starts to become second nature to see everything they do as suspect. Because more than half the time it is.
3: For me the problem is the politics behind it and how the designer has acted. I have a really intense dislike of these sorts of exploitation gags that come up every iteration of this stupid. That and there are at least a dozen ways to do this sort of premise without being offensive. Its like that handicapped RPG book. Started off looking relatively innocent. Then the designers started opening their mouths and it became very apparent what their agenda was. I reserve my ire for scum like them. C&R is just derivative and not worth much more effort than to point out just how wretched these creeps are.
Quote from: Thornhammer on September 03, 2022, 07:04:44 PM
Quote from: jhkim on September 03, 2022, 04:50:37 PM
As I said, from reading it, it seems to have a more difficult learning curve than Tekumel
A steeper learning curve than Tekumel is no small feat. Damn.
Tekimel isnt that hard? I have the "Adventures in" set and its pretty good for learning the system.
Quote from: jhkim on September 07, 2022, 03:46:32 PM
To clarify, the rules mechanics aren't the main part of the learning curve. The biggest problem is in learning the background. It is a science fiction game where the PCs are educated members of a complex technological society, who also have psychic powers. The background is very densely written, describing a very unfamiliar world. None of the setting matches with familiar genres or history. As an example, if I were to run a chase scene in Cahokia, it seems very difficult to run. What sort of obstacles are there? What vehicle options? Can the target dodge onto a train? Are there turnstiles or similar?
Reading about the world, Cahokia does have metro stations (as marked on the map). In keeping with the setting, there would not be any cost to people for boarding the trains - that's part of the social services provided by local council. As a result, there would be no need for turnstiles.
In terms of chase mechanics, those are described and abstracted - if someone is running away they need to get more successes than you do trying to catch them. The SG and the players are encouraged to explain the result. A good SG will have descriptive text ready and good players will use the scenery to make it easier for themselves or harder for their adversary. The game does put a lot of responsibility on the shoulders of the SG and the setting information that is provided is relatively high-level.
Quote from: Omega on September 08, 2022, 06:45:49 AM
1: Your experience then is alot better than mine. Locally I have seen it creeping into the local players rhetoric and at least one of my local gaming group makes Deadman look reasonable. At least two artists I know have totally flipped out.
Here I'm seeing organized play more and more taken over by the "Trust and Safety" crowd, although the biggest organized group seems to have backed way off on requiring X-cards and safety tools and dialing down what counts as "harassment".
People playing on their own seem to be self-sorting.
Quote from: Omega on September 08, 2022, 06:50:00 AM
Tekimel isnt that hard? I have the "Adventures in" set and its pretty good for learning the system.
Tekumel has never been that hard system wise.
Grokking the world, however, is another story.
I think the "barbarians new to the Empire" default of EPT was a brilliant choice in that respect.
Quote from: PulpHerb on September 08, 2022, 05:21:56 PM
Quote from: Omega on September 08, 2022, 06:50:00 AM
Tekimel isnt that hard? I have the "Adventures in" set and its pretty good for learning the system.
Tekumel has never been that hard system wise.
Grokking the world, however, is another story.
I think the "barbarians new to the Empire" default of EPT was a brilliant choice in that respect.
It seems pretty damn easy to grock?
The year 60094. From out of space a runaway warp hurtles Tekumel into another dimension.
Unleashing cosmic destruction!
Man's civilization is cast in ruin. 32000 years later Tekumel is reborn.
A strange new world rises from the old. A world of savagery, super science and sorcery...
8)
Quote from: PulpHerb on September 08, 2022, 05:20:53 PM
Quote from: Omega on September 08, 2022, 06:45:49 AM
1: Your experience then is alot better than mine. Locally I have seen it creeping into the local players rhetoric and at least one of my local gaming group makes Deadman look reasonable. At least two artists I know have totally flipped out.
Here I'm seeing organized play more and more taken over by the "Trust and Safety" crowd, although the biggest organized group seems to have backed way off on requiring X-cards and safety tools and dialing down what counts as "harassment".
People playing on their own seem to be self-sorting.
If I may ask, where is 'here' for you?
I haven't seen any X-card bullshit of late at conventions (which is, oddly, the one place I could see them used without incident). But 'org play' in general might be different.
Quote from: Omega on September 08, 2022, 09:21:38 PM
Quote from: PulpHerb on September 08, 2022, 05:21:56 PM
Quote from: Omega on September 08, 2022, 06:50:00 AM
Tekimel isnt that hard? I have the "Adventures in" set and its pretty good for learning the system.
Tekumel has never been that hard system wise.
Grokking the world, however, is another story.
I think the "barbarians new to the Empire" default of EPT was a brilliant choice in that respect.
It seems pretty damn easy to grock?
The year 60094. From out of space a runaway warp hurtles Tekumel into another dimension.
Unleashing cosmic destruction!
Man's civilization is cast in ruin. 32000 years later Tekumel is reborn.
A strange new world rises from the old. A world of savagery, super science and sorcery...
8)
Thundarr? Is that you?
Quote from: Omega on September 08, 2022, 09:21:38 PM
It seems pretty damn easy to grock?
The year 60094. From out of space a runaway warp hurtles Tekumel into another dimension.
Unleashing cosmic destruction!
Man's civilization is cast in ruin. 32000 years later Tekumel is reborn.
A strange new world rises from the old. A world of savagery, super science and sorcery...
8)
Except for the author quite specifically uses a baseline of cultures very different from the ones most of an English-speaking audience is familiar with. Even Glorantha, having some cultural basisi in
The Illiad,
The Oddessy, and the Sagas is more likely to tap into ideas the average player has encountered.
There are assumptions embedded that take some wrapping your head around.
Now, if you want to ignore them and apply YTMV, go for it. I know MAR Barker endorsed that idea heavily...he wanted people to engage to the degree they wanted to and have fun.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on September 09, 2022, 08:19:49 AM
Quote from: PulpHerb on September 08, 2022, 05:20:53 PM
Quote from: Omega on September 08, 2022, 06:45:49 AM
1: Your experience then is alot better than mine. Locally I have seen it creeping into the local players rhetoric and at least one of my local gaming group makes Deadman look reasonable. At least two artists I know have totally flipped out.
Here I'm seeing organized play more and more taken over by the "Trust and Safety" crowd, although the biggest organized group seems to have backed way off on requiring X-cards and safety tools and dialing down what counts as "harassment".
People playing on their own seem to be self-sorting.
If I may ask, where is 'here' for you?
I haven't seen any X-card bullshit of late at conventions (which is, oddly, the one place I could see them used without incident). But 'org play' in general might be different.
Greater Atlanta. The successor to the long-running RPG meetup, which collapse over "sexual harassment" complaints against one of the runners, was very pushy about X-cards from the start. One reason I have yet to attend.