Yeah, play is what matters. That and a lot of luck. How many of us here have seen the bucket of 18s character die in his first quest out the gate?

High stats are not bowling gutter bumpers, ensuring you'll at least hit some pins. Bad behavior to NPCs & their institutions will still kill you. Bad strategy and tactics will still kill you. Bad luck will still kill you.

They're useful, but not necessary. It's a matter of degree, but it's not that fragile of a difference. However gamers often speak in full throated dichotomies, especially to that ever precious "win!" button. Whateverness.

For my group (5e), I'm going with the following:

Players can choose random rolls, array, or point buy.
They have to roll at the table, 4d6 drop the lowest and assign wherever.
If they don't like the state, they can ask me if they can re-roll and I'm making a completely subjective judgement call on whether I think it is necessary based on how high the top two and lowest two stats are.

All four chose random rolls.
Only one asked for a re-roll because they didn't have a single stat over 13, so they got to re-roll.
Three of the players have at least one negative stat and are cool with it.
The fourth ended up with fairly high stats and no negatives, and the rest don't care.

I also let everyone know that they can repeat this process and switch characters as often as they and the other players wish, because if they don't enjoy playing a character for any reason, they shouldn't have to.

Quote from: Brad;791436To echo Old Geezer from some other thread, stats in D&D aren't everything, but they're not nothing, either. That said, 3D6 in order using random.org:

STR 13
INT 12
WIS 9
DEX 11
CON 9
CHA 11

In B/X, I could make a viable fighter, cleric, thief, dwarf, elf, halfling, or magic-user. So, yeah, your assertion is wrong.

So let me get this straight: you do a SINGLE set of random 3d6 rolls, get a set of NOT crap stats, and declare any degree of fact off of that alone?  Remind me never to hire you on to perform any study, dude.

Hell, here's my own set.

STR 10, INT 9, WIS 9, DEX 9, CON 12, CHA 6.  (That's seriously what I just rolled.)  So yeah, your assertion is wrong, if we're playing that game.  Could I be a viable meat shield with that, does anyone think?

Quote from: Ravenswing;791428 It's a matter of "I don't want to play a character that's permanently handicapped from Day One in a way that none of the other characters are, so that I'm automatically their bitch, and they'll be pissed off that I'm not pulling my weight."

Why would you ever play with people who treated each other like that?

It seems like less a problem you're having with random stats and more a problem with having some psychopaths at your table and/or people who aren't smart enough to realize a character with low stats can pull far more than their weight through cleverness and invention.

And even if they didn't pull their own weight: a game isn't a reality-free zone. You still have to treat your friends with respect.

Quote from: Ravenswing;791513So let me get this straight: you do a SINGLE set of random 3d6 rolls, get a set of NOT crap stats, and declare any degree of fact off of that alone?  Remind me never to hire you on to perform any study, dude.

Remind me never to post a simple example on the internet because someone will inevitably insult you for not being fucking detailed enough. Seriously, this is one of the dumbest posts in the thread.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;791457Hell, you just had a mod ban someone for a month for literally not agreeing with his side of an argument.

Interesting - I like how the SJW are pushing all the well-meaning Lefties off their boat. They're undoing decades of brainwashing at a stroke. In a trivial way it reminds me of the reaction to Islamic State, whose behaviour has horrified many hardline Sunni Muslims and Western Leftists.

It also reminds me of "Are we the baddies?" - many Left-Liberals seem to have been under the impression that their side were the Goodies, and GamerGate has showed them the skulls on the caps of many of their comrades.

Quote from: Zak S;791515And even if they didn't pull their own weight: a game isn't a reality-free zone. You still have to treat your friends with respect.

This, this and this. I really wonder what kind of folks people game with when reading some of the threads. Did someone clone Will Ferrell's character from Old School and unleash him on the gaming community because these sound like seriously unhealthy groups if people are being treated with a lack of respect because they didn't roll as high for their abilities.

Getting an 18 and 16 isn't an achievement, it is luck. Anyone who sees having a weak character as some kind of personal failure has issues. Serious issues. I've gamed for years with folks who can handle a wide range of results in the party AND get along. Was just looking at last year's OA campaign and averaging the results against point buy values. Our highest character had like a 36 value character and the lowest a 10 (using 4d6 drop lowest). Yet the group was functional, got a long and I nobody got frustrated at the character with the 10 value stats.

Quote from: Zak S;791515...people who aren't smart enough to realize a character with low stats can pull far more than their weight through cleverness and invention.

The player brings this, not their character. Which they can do with higher or lower stats. Only with higher stats, they're much more likely to succeed with that.

Quote from: Kiero;791521The player brings this, not their character. Which they can do with higher or lower stats. Only with higher stats, they're much more likely to succeed with that.

A player plays the ball where it lies. The shape of the golf course is part of the game.

Bad stats? Play to win.

Good stats? Play to win. And everyone should expect more of you.

Quote from: Zak S;791522A player plays the ball where it lies. The shape of the golf course is part of the game.

  The counterargument is that wide stat variations is like having a tournament where players play on courses of varied shapes and difficulty, but are all being held to the same par.

  I think random rolling made more sense/less difference when multiple PCs in a 'stable' arrangement was the norm, and lethality was higher, so the variations tended to even out more over time and sessions. With the newer model of committing to a single PC for the long term, I think a lot of that balancing element is lost.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;791524The counterargument is that wide stat variations is like having a tournament where players play on courses of varied shapes and difficulty, but are all being held to the same par.

If the players were in competition with each other, that analogy would make sense.

But they're not,  they're a team working toward a common goal--and if the GM isn't setting things up so good ideas get as much or more spotlight and effectivenes more than to-hit bonuses, you're going to have a shit game anyway and there's no help for you even if all the players are equal.

Quote from: One Horse Town;791470That's certainly one way of doing it.

I confess that i've never, ever seen 'dice envy' in a group. In fact, it's so alien to me that it boggles me. I'm not competing against the other players.

I'll have to agree, it is quite alien to my experience.  I usually combine random roll with a little bit of mercy in the case of truly unwanted character.

I'm playing these games to have fun with friends.

If someone doesn't like their stats, we can work something out, we're all friends here.
If someone thinks they're entitled to high stats just because, they can fuck off, they're being a dick.

Someone like Mengtzu wouldn't be a good fit for my table.

Quote from: Ladybird;791534I'm playing these games to have fun with friends.

If someone doesn't like their stats, we can work something out, we're all friends here.
If someone thinks they're entitled to high stats just because, they can fuck off, they're being a dick.

Someone like Mengtzu wouldn't be a good fit for my table.

I concur absolutely.

Quote from: Will;791455It's a rebellion against power inequity.

If you insist on random stats in a game where stats matter and stats can vary a lot... you're being a dick expecting one person to just play el schmucko for the campaign.

(I realize people will now pile on with their stories of real manly gaming where you shut up and deal with what you get. It's a pile of crap)

It's not manly, but it's not a pile of crap. It's not manly to make the best of a "crappy" character, it's creative. The stats only matter if your play is uncreative.

The advantage of roleplaying games over computer games is that even the dumbest GM is smarter than a computer. This means players can try things not on their character sheets on in the rules.

For example:
"A portcullis slides down behind you, trapping the party!"
"Let's bend the bars and get out."
"What's your Strength like?"
"My bend bars/lift gates is 2%."
"Haha, roll."
"I have a crowbar. Surely that helps?"
"Hmmm, the rules don't mention it. Roll under 02."
"If you don't believe in the usefulness of a lever action, the next time you lean back on one of my chairs I can use a gentle shove to push you over onto your arse."
"Oh alright, +10% to the roll."
"It's a five foot crowbar. Can the other guy help?"
"Sure, add both your bend bars/lift gates together, then +10%."
"That makes 15%, better."

For example, in one of my games, players dealt with a mummy in this way. They cast hold portal on the lid, used a rock drill to make two holes in it, poured in pitch and lit it up. None of this was covered by the rules. What were their stats? What level were they? It didn't matter, because they used their brains, they were creative.

The wonderful thing about roleplaying is that you can be creative. And with creativity, numbers become far less important. This isn't "manly", it's very cerebral. The most effeminate cowardly cardigan-wearing vegan academic who spends a lot of time doing cryptic crossword puzzles will do very well in this game.

Since the great thing about roleplaying games is that you can be creative, gaming approaches which encourage creativity are superior. Trying to make sure you have great stats is not creative, any 13 year old playing Diablo hopped up on Red Bull at 3am can do that.