Quote from: Ravenswing;791513STR 10, INT 9, WIS 9, DEX 9, CON 12, CHA 6.  (That's seriously what I just rolled.)  So yeah, your assertion is wrong, if we're playing that game.  Could I be a viable meat shield with that, does anyone think?

That's better than my first character.

But I don't think you could be a viable fighter with those stats, no. You'd be too busy whining to be creative.

Quote from: Ravenswing;791513So let me get this straight: you do a SINGLE set of random 3d6 rolls, get a set of NOT crap stats, and declare any degree of fact off of that alone?  Remind me never to hire you on to perform any study, dude.

Hell, here's my own set.

STR 10, INT 9, WIS 9, DEX 9, CON 12, CHA 6.  (That's seriously what I just rolled.)  So yeah, your assertion is wrong, if we're playing that game.  Could I be a viable meat shield with that, does anyone think?

In OD&D or B/X? Sure. 9-12 is Average, with neither bonuses nor penalties; you won't be Party Leader with that Charisma score, but you can do just fine with Sword & Board or hanging back with a bow as a Fighter- and you should, with that totally Average Intelligence and Wisdom score, do fine in picking up basic tactics on your own. With a Magic-User and/or Cleric around to help out, your Fighter will get up to speed faster. Make good use of local features, especially terrain, to best advantage and your man can be viable well into the Domain Lord endgame.

Quote from: jeff37923;791464The Hobbit.

EDIT: The Book of Three by Lloyd Alexander.

That's just crazy talk, sir!

Quote from: Natty Bodak;791551That's just crazy talk, sir!

  Well, aren't we constantly being told that "Appendix N is the real source for D&D inspiration!" (and of the books mentioned, only Tolkien is in there, begrudgingly) and "Swords & Sorcery is the real point of the game!" and "D&D isn't about emulating fiction anyway!"

 

Quote from: Kiero;791458The notion that stats don't matter is bollocks, and is only true of OD&D (and I guess AD&D1) where by design (so far as there was any design) they did little.

(My bold.)

Actually, ability scores are vitally important in AD&D 1e.  The difference between a fighter with 18 (%) strength, and a fighter with 10 strength is enormous.  Magic-users with low intelligence cannot learn spells of higher levels, and are less able to learn new spells.  Clerics with low wisdom lose out on bonus spells and even (if their wisdom is low enough) have a chance of failure on every spell cast.  Thieves receive important boosts to their thief ability percentages based on dexterity.  Etc.

It is for this reason that Gygax writes: "...it is usually essential to the character's survival to be exceptional (with a rating of 15 or above) in no fewer than two ability characteristics" (PHB, 1e, p. 9).

And it is for this reason that the DMG includes four different methods for generating higher-than-average ability scores for PCs (p.11).

The notion that ability scores were unimportant in 1e AD&D, and that 3d6-in-order was the default method, is a myth.  Certainly the game's author never held such a view.

As for 0e D&D (pre-supplements), yeah, ability scores don't matter much.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;791554Well, aren't we constantly being told that "Appendix N is the real source for D&D inspiration!" (and of the books mentioned, only Tolkien is in there, begrudgingly) and "Swords & Sorcery is the real point of the game!" and "D&D isn't about emulating fiction anyway!"

 

Why can't the voices in our heads all be on the same page? Is that too much to ask?!

At this point I guess it's been pretty well demonstrated that there's a subset of folks who don't like whatever inequity they perceive in individually randomized stat generation, and/or who don't like the treatment they receive from their game group (or themselves) for having sub-average or sub-optimal stats.  

However unflattering I think the psychological analysis of that perspective might be, I think Ladybird's point is solid.  Everybody should have fun playing their chosen game.  

Where it becomes absurd is when that TBP mod whinges about how the half point disparity in stat averages between point buy and rolling in 5e is making them roll characters and suicide them when they'd rather just point buy instead.

This isn't always a matter of maturity or jealousy.

If you are playing a game of fantasy special forces, and you've managed to roll up Gug the guy too stupid to manage a fork (and is also an asthmatic weakling), then you're probably not going to have a fun time.

As for creative problem solving... that's always possible, even when you don't roll up a weak character.


And, again, system matters. Buffy RPG had a great mechanic where 'normal' characters had a lot of luck to make up for the fact they were weaker and slower than the other types and didn't have any magic.

Fate and similar games have great ways for, say, Lois Lane to hold her own in an adventure next to Superman.

So, personally, part of my solution is to sidestep the basic question and look at what the system allows for and makes sure it has room for "sub-par" characters.

Quote from: stuffis;791362i was banned from TBP for a few weeks for (1) sharing the Man Rider story and uncharitably suggesting that (2) no functioning adult would ever 'suicide' a character who had suboptimal stats, especially as a 'protest' against being forced to roll rather than use a stat array. now i'm wondering: i am actually correct on #2? would any well-adjusted grownup rather commit character suicide ('suicide' should not be a fucking verb) than just play the character?

so: have you ever had a player deliberately run a character into the ground right away to get out of a 'shitty' character w/random stats? do you know people who play this way? what are they like?

the thread's here: http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?739281-Sell-me-Unsell-me-Rolling-for-Ability-Scores

Last time I let them roll up a new character, and took the other one for an NPC.

Quote from: Zak S;791515Why would you ever play with people who treated each other like that?

It seems like less a problem you're having with random stats and more a problem with having some psychopaths at your table and/or people who aren't smart enough to realize a character with low stats can pull far more than their weight through cleverness and invention.

And even if they didn't pull their own weight: a game isn't a reality-free zone. You still have to treat your friends with respect.

Agreed.  I don't associate with people like that.

I read the first couple of posts of the TBP. Whinging admin has a panic attack about D&D 5E roll/point array and flings shit everywhere.

Get out of there, that place serves no purpose. Roll a few characters, use one you like the look of.

Failing that:

There's this commentary about 'what kind of people have a problem with sub-par.'

I'd have to mirror that with why is point buy such a horror show? 'All the characters end up the same.' If you are choosing mature players... why?

You literally can't help yourself from putting points down in a certain way? You can't just roll some dice to see where the points will go this time?

If you can't trust players to be mature with point buy, why are you expecting more maturity with random?

One thing I wondered as I read through that thread  is: whatever happened to "I wanted to be a super-strong fighter, and only rolled a 14 Strength, so I guess I will go on a quest to find a girdle of giant strength"?

Time was, if you didn't get what you wanted act character creation in an RPG, that helped define your goals.  Didn't get a score you wanted? Look for a way to raise that score. Didn't get Magic Missile when rolling for random spells? quest for spell books, or get enough gold to do some research.

If some  people don't like playing characters that don't have everything they want right out of the gate,, what exactly do they do after they get their way? What do they want for their characters? What are their goals? What happens if they are cursed later and have ttheir abiliity scores lowered? Or are these the samme people who complain about "ggrudge" monsters and level drain?

Quote from: Will;791589There's this commentary about 'what kind of people have a problem with sub-par.'

I'd have to mirror that with why is point buy such a horror show? 'All the characters end up the same.' If you are choosing mature players... why?

You literally can't help yourself from putting points down in a certain way? You can't just roll some dice to see where the points will go this time?

If you can't trust players to be mature with point buy, why are you expecting more maturity with random?

There's nothing horrific about point buy, in my book. It tends to make more similar stat blocks due to the mechanics and occasional lack of inspiration, not maturity.

Have your heart set on a concept that can be done within the boundaries of point buy? Rock it.

If you choose it because you can't handle the chance of being subpar in general? That seems inherently sad to me, but again rock it.

If you choose it because of the shit you'd catch for being the group's albatross? That's shitty.

I generally prefer rolling, but also enjoy games where point buy was the rule.

Well, keep in mind that, like most of these discussions, people conflate random and point values.

It's entirely possible to have a point buy system that's random. It's entirely possible to have a rolled system with plenty of choice (rearrange and so on).

I mean, one of my favorite chargen is lifepath, where you generate the elements of a character's history and it has impact on character sheet.

I also love Fate's 'quickstart' rule idea, where you jot down a few values and decide on the others as you go.

I prefer rolling over point buy since you're more likely to get widely varying characters.

In my current RuneQuest 6 game, my PC has a Strength of 6, Constitution of 6, and an Intelligence of 18 (everything else is within the 9-11 range).  I can't imagine that I would've chosen to have 6's in both Str & Con were I using point buy.  It just incurs too many disadvantages.  But having rolled those stats, I'm happy to make them work, and have adapted my character concept accordingly.

That said, life is short, and I don't understand why any GM would want to force a player to play a character that (he/she thinks) sucks, or even was not the kind of character that that player enjoys playing. If a player rolls a crap character, let that player re-roll, for Crom's sake.  And if a player really wants to play a cleric, let the player put the character's highest stat in Wisdom.  What is the issue?