Quote from: KindaMeh on December 21, 2023, 08:03:20 PM
Are there any editions where opportunity attacks aren't a thing fighters can do on average better than other folks? I do feel like a lot of 3.5 and 5e formations and tactics seem to rely pretty heavily on those. By contrast, in games like OSRIC you can actually meaningfully engage an opponent to prevent them from reaching your casters. Have things moved away from the frontline being able to as effectively halt enemy movement without relying on opportunity attacks or discouragement through beatings? Might be part of why back in the day fighters were allegedly more respected...

You could effectively halt enemy movement in 3e, but like you said there was a big emphasis on Attacks of Opportunity. I think it ended up taking away from the idea of spearmen in the second row since they'd only get their attacks of opportunity if they were in the front row where the enemy would have to enter their zone of control 10ft away.

Then again, those levels of specifics are why I ended up going back to AD&D and BECMI.

Quote from: KindaMeh on December 21, 2023, 08:03:20 PM
Are there any editions where opportunity attacks aren't a thing fighters can do on average better than other folks? I do feel like a lot of 3.5 and 5e formations and tactics seem to rely pretty heavily on those. By contrast, in games like OSRIC you can actually meaningfully engage an opponent to prevent them from reaching your casters. Have things moved away from the frontline being able to as effectively halt enemy movement without relying on opportunity attacks or discouragement through beatings? Might be part of why back in the day fighters were allegedly more respected...

I think part of the charm of 1st ed fighters was that they leveled easier and tended to have better saving throws.  Most monsters had saves set as fighter of equal HD. 

But your point about opportunity attacks is well taken.  It seems to be a core feature of battlefield control for fighters traditionally speaking.  Not sure if that's a bad thing though. 

Quote from: Opaopajr on December 21, 2023, 02:47:45 AM
I come from an older and different paradigm: whatever is not forbidden is allowed. So seeking push-button options for the things you are asking for is rather odd for me, predominantly a post-WotC D&D phenomenon. Many of the ideas you are asking for have been treated in TSR D&D, but it is predominantly in Party Tactics with the assumption that if one member falls another steps up to hold the line. So isolating it into a permission system, where other classes cannot participate in being in the front risking their lives in a similar way, seems unnecessary.  Anyone can risk their lives at the front, especially if you are forced to in a fighting retreat!
....

If you are interested in more there's several older books that explore these ideas, like 2e Complete Handbook: Fighters. Overall you could build a combat monster with specialized widgets, but I found isolating such fun tidbits less rewarding than opening it to everyone and then have a class stand heads above the rest in doing it.

Thanks for the response.

I'm probably older than you think but...

There is definitely a shift in time as editions go. My go-to move as a fighter since 1st ed was always to run and tackle the magic user.  I've found some DMs are cool with it and others not.  This kind of thing was cool in 1st and 2nd edition but tends to require special "rules" now.

Really I'm trying to come up with creative options to add more spice... if you will.  I've played a lot of fighters in my 30+ years of play.  I have often found that I wish I had more options beyond "attack."

There are some interesting 4th ed options around shifting yourself or your opponent but I'm looking more to things like...

A shout ability that lets you intimidate an enemy or maybe all enemies around you. 

An ability that might grant a bonus to an ally (free action, counterattack, etc..)

Anything else that does not involve attacking an enemy.

Maybe I'm getting too cutesy with it?  Who knows...?

Quote from: KindaMeh on December 21, 2023, 08:03:20 PM
Are there any editions where opportunity attacks aren't a thing fighters can do on average better than other folks? I do feel like a lot of 3.5 and 5e formations and tactics seem to rely pretty heavily on those. By contrast, in games like OSRIC you can actually meaningfully engage an opponent to prevent them from reaching your casters. Have things moved away from the frontline being able to as effectively halt enemy movement without relying on opportunity attacks or discouragement through beatings? Might be part of why back in the day fighters were allegedly more respected...

In my Majestic Fantasy RPG which is based on OD&D, I fleshed out combat and you can't just run through an opponent's space without trying to knock them down or push them away. I handle it the same way it would work out in life.

If you tried to get through a formation sure you can try to grab a combatant and throw or knock down. But that would leave vulnerable the other ranks and those to the side. The only time you would stand a chance is if you faced a single file line without a second rank. But you are trying to win an Athletic skill contest with somebody who is likely equally trained as strong as yourself.

My solution has been to find a game that already has fighter options.  I want to be able to make a fighter different than other people.

I've found two I like.

1.  Dungeons and Delvers Dice Pool Edition. This is the version with the Chibi style art and a yellow gear cog on the cover.  It treats wizards and martial classes very similar.  Every class gets to pick special powers from a list of 15 or so.  The fun stuff is just about the same for all classes instead of the spell casters getting all the cool upgrades. 

2.  Olde Swords Reign.  (Free game I might add).  This one has fighter and "expert" feats (fyi an expert is just a silly way to say rogue).   These feats allow you to customize your non-spell caster fighter or rogue (because I'm not a fragile, pearl clutching, Karen, I'm ok calling them rogues and not a sanitized name like expert).  It is a feature I greatly appreciated since the game seemed to only have the classic four classes.  Well, feats let you tweak your character to be unique.  That's what I want.

https://osreign.com/

There is the link to get their full, free game. 

Quote from: blackstone on December 21, 2023, 03:14:44 PM
One of the little known (and forgotten) rules when it came to fighters in AD&D 1st ed is fighters can attack monsters less than 1 HD equal to the level of the fighter.

The fighters specialty is laying waste to creatures that attack on mass: orcs, goblins, kobolds, giant rats, etc.

check under the fighter's attack matrix in the PHB or on the DM Screen. It's there.

20 goblins? No problem for a 5th level Fighter!

Captain_Pazuzu: just wanted to make sure you saw this.

EDIT: I'm looking everywhere, but I can't find the rule. I could have sworn this was a thing. MAybe I'm thinking of another edition, or it might be on the DM's screen 1st print.

Quote from: blackstone on December 22, 2023, 07:50:57 AM
Captain_Pazuzu: just wanted to make sure you saw this.

Quote from: blackstone on December 22, 2023, 07:50:57 AM
EDIT: I'm looking everywhere, but I can't find the rule. I could have sworn this was a thing. MAybe I'm thinking of another edition, or it might be on the DM's screen 1st print.

Page 25 of the AD&D PHB



In OD&D it came from an official clarification in The Strategic Review Vol 1. Issue #2, Page 3.

Quote from: blackstone on December 21, 2023, 03:14:44 PM
One of the little known (and forgotten) rules when it came to fighters in AD&D 1st ed is fighters can attack monsters less than 1 HD equal to the level of the fighter.

It is in OD&D as well except the cutoff is 1 HD. In lieu of multiple attacks I expanded the rule in my Majestic Fantasy RPG to allow Fighters to attack a number of HD equal to the level. No cap on when it happens. So a 4th level Fighter will get 2 attacks on a 2 HD creatures. (or can take two of them). In the decade I been using it, it has worked out quite well.

Quote from: estar on December 22, 2023, 08:51:29 AM

Quote from: blackstone on December 22, 2023, 07:50:57 AM
Captain_Pazuzu: just wanted to make sure you saw this.

Quote from: blackstone on December 22, 2023, 07:50:57 AM
EDIT: I'm looking everywhere, but I can't find the rule. I could have sworn this was a thing. MAybe I'm thinking of another edition, or it might be on the DM's screen 1st print.

Page 25 of the AD&D PHB



In OD&D it came from an official clarification in The Strategic Review Vol 1. Issue #2, Page 3.

Quote from: blackstone on December 21, 2023, 03:14:44 PM
One of the little known (and forgotten) rules when it came to fighters in AD&D 1st ed is fighters can attack monsters less than 1 HD equal to the level of the fighter.

It is in OD&D as well except the cutoff is 1 HD. In lieu of multiple attacks I expanded the rule in my Majestic Fantasy RPG to allow Fighters to attack a number of HD equal to the level. No cap on when it happens. So a 4th level Fighter will get 2 attacks on a 2 HD creatures. (or can take two of them). In the decade I been using it, it has worked out quite well.

Thanks. I thought it was somewhere. I was thinking the DMG, not the PHB.

Question: the rule says "fighters". Does that mean the rule only applies to the core Fighter class, or sub-classes as well? I always interpreted it as just to the core Fighter. Rangers, paladins, etc. have other class abilities that make them attractive to play. I figure this one ability for Fighters would be at least one thing they excel at.

Interesting take on your rule when applying it to higher HD monsters as well.

Quote from: blackstone on December 22, 2023, 07:50:57 AM

Quote from: blackstone on December 21, 2023, 03:14:44 PM
One of the little known (and forgotten) rules when it came to fighters in AD&D 1st ed is fighters can attack monsters less than 1 HD equal to the level of the fighter.

The fighters specialty is laying waste to creatures that attack on mass: orcs, goblins, kobolds, giant rats, etc.

check under the fighter's attack matrix in the PHB or on the DM Screen. It's there.

20 goblins? No problem for a 5th level Fighter!

Captain_Pazuzu: just wanted to make sure you saw this.

EDIT: I'm looking everywhere, but I can't find the rule. I could have sworn this was a thing. MAybe I'm thinking of another edition, or it might be on the DM's screen 1st print.

Thanks.

Quote from: Captain_Pazuzu on December 22, 2023, 09:33:11 AM

Quote from: blackstone on December 22, 2023, 07:50:57 AM

Quote from: blackstone on December 21, 2023, 03:14:44 PM
One of the little known (and forgotten) rules when it came to fighters in AD&D 1st ed is fighters can attack monsters less than 1 HD equal to the level of the fighter.

The fighters specialty is laying waste to creatures that attack on mass: orcs, goblins, kobolds, giant rats, etc.

check under the fighter's attack matrix in the PHB or on the DM Screen. It's there.

20 goblins? No problem for a 5th level Fighter!

Captain_Pazuzu: just wanted to make sure you saw this.

EDIT: I'm looking everywhere, but I can't find the rule. I could have sworn this was a thing. MAybe I'm thinking of another edition, or it might be on the DM's screen 1st print.

Thanks.

o7

Quote from: weirdguy564 on December 21, 2023, 11:16:07 PM
(because I'm not a fragile, pearl clutching, Karen, I'm ok calling them rogues and not a sanitized name like expert).

Ha, different pearls for different folks I guess ... back in my day we called them "thieves" and "assassins" and snickered at the prudish Rogue! 

Quote from: blackstone on December 22, 2023, 09:32:52 AM
Question: the rule says "fighters". Does that mean the rule only applies to the core Fighter class, or sub-classes as well? I always interpreted it as just to the core Fighter. Rangers, paladins, etc. have other class abilities that make them attractive to play. I figure this one ability for Fighters would be at least one thing they excel at.

Welcome to the wonderful ambiguous world of classic D&D/AD&D.

1) It's your call But.....

2) Rangers and Paladin are specifically noted as fighter sub-classes. Moreso in Unearthed Arcana the table is repeated but with Cavaliers and Barbarians added. The table on page 22 now reads

QuoteNotes: These figures do not apply to melee combat with monsters of less than one hit die (d8) and non-exceptional humans and semihumans, i.e. all creatures with less than one eight-sided hit die. All of these creatures enable members of the listed classes and sub-classes to attack once per round for each of his or her levels.

Unearthed Arcana Page 22.

So yes it is highly likely that RAW, Paladins, and Rangers get several attacks equal to their level. However, keep in mind both classes have a lot of roleplaying implications that if not incorporated will make things wonky. The AD&D 1e Ranger is not a woodland warrior but a take on the Dunedain Rangers of LoTR. An organization of warriors associated with elves and other demi-humans and a force for good.

Quote from: blackstone on December 22, 2023, 09:32:52 AM
Interesting take on your rule when applying it to higher HD monsters as well.

Thanks. One reason it works well is that against the toughest OD&D monsters, nothing changes but against more mundane opponents using it makes players with high-level fighter characters feel like they have progressed in power.

This in many ways reflects how things worked out when I ran my setting using GURPS. A high-point GURPS character with a high level of skills could easily take care of multiple opponents (a feint, then a decisive blow) while fighting someone of comparable skill took the same amount of tactics and thought as it did when the campaign first started.

Quote from: blackstone on December 21, 2023, 03:14:44 PM
One of the little known (and forgotten) rules when it came to fighters in AD&D 1st ed is fighters can attack monsters less than 1 HD equal to the level of the fighter.

The fighters specialty is laying waste to creatures that attack on mass: orcs, goblins, kobolds, giant rats, etc.

check under the fighter's attack matrix in the PHB or on the DM Screen. It's there.

20 goblins? No problem for a 5th level Fighter!

Yes, that same rule applies to the fighter in Lion & Dragon.

Quote from: estar on December 22, 2023, 08:51:29 AM
In OD&D it came from an official clarification in The Strategic Review Vol 1. Issue #2, Page 3.

While the AD&D 1e thing is well known to me, and I've referenced it in this thread, I had no idea about the OD&D piece.  It looks like there may be another reference to this in Chainmail somewhere, just based on the phrasing (it implies we may find something under Hero rules or similar- this looks like it's a clarification of a printed rule somewhere).  In any event, excellent find. 

Quote from: RPGPundit on December 22, 2023, 04:26:28 PM
Yes, that same rule applies to the fighter in Lion & Dragon.

The Lion and Dragon fighter's ability is different, because it is ranged limited, not attack type limited.  The older abilities only allow for melee combat while in Lion and Dragon the fighter can shoot multiple opponents who are greater than 5 but less than 10 feet away.  An additional and more important difference is that an AD&D 1e fighter can charge into reach of such monsters and use his ability (I'm pretty sure?), whereas a clause about multiple attacks in Lion and Dragon seems to make that fighter unable to attack multiple times after moving.

Quote from: Venka on December 23, 2023, 02:18:53 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on December 22, 2023, 04:26:28 PM
Yes, that same rule applies to the fighter in Lion & Dragon.

The Lion and Dragon fighter's ability is different, because it is ranged limited, not attack type limited.  The older abilities only allow for melee combat while in Lion and Dragon the fighter can shoot multiple opponents who are greater than 5 but less than 10 feet away.  An additional and more important difference is that an AD&D 1e fighter can charge into reach of such monsters and use his ability (I'm pretty sure?), whereas a clause about multiple attacks in Lion and Dragon seems to make that fighter unable to attack multiple times after moving.

Not quite; I think you're conflating the attacks against multiple 1hd opponent mechanic and the extra attacks benefits.

So with the former, a fighter can make a number of attacks equal to his level against a group of 1hd opponents (one attack each), to a limit of the number of opponents within 10' of him. The rule doesn't mention if it's melee or ranged, so it can be both, but the implication is thus that he's either firing at a number of opponents within 10', or moving around in that 10' area striking one after the other in melee.

The extra attacks benefit means that with one type of weapon, a fighter can do 2 (or more, over time) attacks, against any type of opponent, with the number of attacks being against either a single opponent or multiple ones, in melee, or ranged at any distance viable for the ranged weapon; but doing more than a single attack means that he cannot do a movement or any other kind of action other than the multiple attacks.