Quote from: Domina on December 21, 2023, 03:30:30 PM
My point is that they're not going to sit there and politely let you attack them all at the same time. At most three will ever be exposed in a given round against a single target. Let's say they're nice enough to not go back underground until their next turn after attacking. Let's also say that they're whatever HD you want, even though shadows have 3 HD. So each round you get to attack 3 shadows with a 50% chance to miss even if you have an infinite attack bonus. Meanwhile you get to take three touch attacks that drain your strength if they hit (they will, since your armor and most of your bonuses are ignored), for an average of 3.5 x 3 = 10.5 strength damage each round. Let's be extremely generous and say your fighter 5 has 30 strength. Even if you automatically kill 3 shadows every round (you won't), your strength will be reduced to zero in three rounds on average and you will die and return as a shadow.

This is what 5e does to your brain folks. It makes you ADD and OCD.

Ok, that's one retarded situation you came up with that my come up once in a blue moon. got any more?

Quote from: Venka on December 21, 2023, 03:27:36 PM

Quote from: Domina on December 21, 2023, 03:15:24 PM
Great idea. Unfortunately, "Fly 40 ft"

Good luck!

I mean, fighters can fly too.  A magic-user can cast it on them, or there's a bunch of items that can do it.
Generally, if the enemies have a pile of magical powers and movement that's all over the place, the fighters will too, one way or another.  They are in the same high-magic world, why would they be left out?

For 5e I'd assume level 2 rogue or some kind of high movement species monk would probably have the best shot at escaping. But I guess you never do know what the party may have up their sleeves. I may have focused a bit too much on core class abilities and related positioning.

Edit- saw newer post. So this is more a philosophical game theory and player mindset discussion than a literal question of how positioning and formation impacts fighter and other class strategy in 5e or the like? Or how to escape or best put up a fight against however many shadows? Makes sense, I guess. I kinda just took the bait and thought maybe it was cuz I like theorycrafting.

You do make decent points in the abstract, I feel, if I interpreted semi-correctly.

Quote from: Domina on December 21, 2023, 03:35:53 PM
No, the point is that every d&d player who thinks he's a super smart tactician doesn't know fucking anything. Everything they know about the game is based around DMs who play monsters like they're retarded. They genuinely think Tucker's Kobolds are some kind of crazy impressive 4d gigabrain play.

I see you are making a lot of assumptions about those who are participating in this thread.

But hey whatever brings you joy this Christmas season.

Good job, your recon team is now additional shadows.

Quote from: estar on December 21, 2023, 03:40:30 PM

Quote from: Domina on December 21, 2023, 03:35:53 PM
No, the point is that every d&d player who thinks he's a super smart tactician doesn't know fucking anything. Everything they know about the game is based around DMs who play monsters like they're retarded. They genuinely think Tucker's Kobolds are some kind of crazy impressive 4d gigabrain play.

I see you are making a lot of assumptions about those who are participating in this thread.

But hey whatever brings you joy this Christmas season.

All of the assumptions are correct.

Quote from: estar on December 21, 2023, 03:36:25 PM

Quote from: Domina on December 21, 2023, 02:36:30 PM
Okay. Twenty shadows float up through the floor simultaneously and grab the ankles of every party member, forcing multiple saves against strength drain. They retreat back through the floor afterwards. Which formation helps against this?

First off Shadows are not incorporeal creatures from various editions of D&D. But for the sake of the debate we will say the party is fighting on a gravel surface that is porous enough for shadows to squeeze through.

You spread out your group about three to five feet apart keeping eyes on the ground around your compatriot's feet. A trained combatant situational awareness can easily encompass two or three of their allies' feet. The shadow's attack is a melee attack which means its hands will be partially exposed. At which point folks attack.

It is foolproof? No of course not.  Tactics are not foolproof. But everybody working together will mean a superior chance for survival than the alternatives.

What people actually do is smarter. They don't let themselves get into a situation where they have to make a stand where shadows can grab their ankles through the ground. They will invest in reconnaissance followed by a expedition style organization of the group where the approach to each area is tailored to the expected dangers.

For the area with the shadows, the group will make sure they have a caster or item capable of casting daylight along with limiting the avenues of approach by placing or creating impermeable barriers along the exploration route.

If it is something else that is incorporeal then the approach will be tailored accordingly.

Also, daylight doesn't do anything to shadows. Incredible tactical reasoning and game knowledge.

Quote from: blackstone on December 21, 2023, 03:37:15 PM

Quote from: Domina on December 21, 2023, 03:30:30 PM
My point is that they're not going to sit there and politely let you attack them all at the same time. At most three will ever be exposed in a given round against a single target. Let's say they're nice enough to not go back underground until their next turn after attacking. Let's also say that they're whatever HD you want, even though shadows have 3 HD. So each round you get to attack 3 shadows with a 50% chance to miss even if you have an infinite attack bonus. Meanwhile you get to take three touch attacks that drain your strength if they hit (they will, since your armor and most of your bonuses are ignored), for an average of 3.5 x 3 = 10.5 strength damage each round. Let's be extremely generous and say your fighter 5 has 30 strength. Even if you automatically kill 3 shadows every round (you won't), your strength will be reduced to zero in three rounds on average and you will die and return as a shadow.

This is what 5e does to your brain folks. It makes you ADD and OCD.

Ok, that's one retarded situation you came up with that my come up once in a blue moon. got any more?

I've never played 5e. Feel free to point out anything at all I said that was incorrect.

Also it's funny that you're now arguing that knowing the rules is a mental disorder. Really running out of arguments huh? Just to be clear, to be a good tactician, you have to not know how the game works? Is that your assertion?

Quote from: Domina on December 21, 2023, 03:15:50 PM
20 shadows*

20 goblins is a very different encounter than 20 shadows. 20 goblins is a common threat that will plague many villages near mountains and even forests, and a 5th level fighter being able to often slay six per round (or at least make six attacks per round) is pretty damned incredible.

20 shadows is a much rarer threat.  Shadows are vastly more powerful than goblins, have 3+3 HD instead of 1-1 or whatever.  Shadows in 1e just means you have to have a +1 sword, and by the time you are facing 20 of them, you sure as hell do.  The 50% miss rate for incorporeal (and immunity to nonmagical attacks) is a 3.X thing, where 20 goblins is encounter level 5, appropriate and difficult for your level 5 party, whereas 20 shadows is an encounter level 12 fight- "overpowering" and a party should not be engaging.

If your game involves a bunch of flight powers, hellbeam casting, wall-phasing, teleport-at-will, sword-ignoring ghosts, your problem is not with the fighter class, it's that you adjusted all the monsters without adjusting the player character classes.  Your fighters should have magical weapons (true in every version starting around levels 4 to 7, even versions that lie about that fact), and they should have magical items that work in such a world.

Ultimately, some monsters have powers that are meant to be employed tactically.  Some have powers that are actually too good if employed fully effectively.  A well designed monster is in the first category- most dragons have a bunch of powers that they need to employ intelligently or else they'll get chopped to bits instantly.  Some monsters, such as some of the incorporeal 3.5 monsters, end up overpowering if in a place that works with their powers.  Even 5e monsters are a big problem if the room is a bunch of five foot corridors with five foot walls in between them, or some other nightmare scenario.  Why are the Int 6 shadows in such an environment?  Was it the work of an evil wizard?  Why does he have 20 shadows obeying him?  Some macguffin, right?  That's not an issue with player tactics, or the fighter class.

Frankly I'm not impressed with some of this logic.  Someone brings up the multiple attacks from 1e fighters against sub-1-hit die monsters, and then instantly we have a mix of the 5th and 3rd edition shadows instead of whatever was being discussed.  I dunno man, it just seems odd.

Who knows why the shadows are there? I doubt you have time to wonder about such things while half your strength is being deleted every round. Maybe you should focus on tactics before you all die.

Also thanks for bringing up dragons as an example - the primary poster boy for the monster that utterly wrecks shit unless the DM has it land and claw/claw/bite every round.

Quote from: Domina on December 21, 2023, 03:45:39 PM
Also, daylight doesn't do anything to shadows. Incredible tactical reasoning and game knowledge.

Daylight reduces their ability to hide and attack.

Quote from: estar on December 21, 2023, 03:53:26 PM

Quote from: Domina on December 21, 2023, 03:45:39 PM
Also, daylight doesn't do anything to shadows. Incredible tactical reasoning and game knowledge.

Daylight reduces their ability to hide and attack.

Their ability to hide and attack is completely independent of the light level, actually. Their miss chance doesn't depend on concealment.

Quote from: Domina on December 21, 2023, 03:54:37 PM
Their ability to hide and attack is completely independent of the light level, actually.

Very much reduced in sunlight.

Quote from: Domina on December 21, 2023, 03:54:37 PM
Their miss chance doesn't depend on concealment.

Yes it does

Quote from: estar on December 21, 2023, 03:58:43 PM

Quote from: Domina on December 21, 2023, 03:54:37 PM
Their ability to hide and attack is completely independent of the light level, actually.

Very much reduced in sunlight.

Quote from: Domina on December 21, 2023, 03:54:37 PM
Their miss chance doesn't depend on concealment.

Yes it does

An incorporeal creature has no physical body. It can be harmed only by other incorporeal creatures, magic weapons or creatures that strike as magic weapons, and spells, spell-like abilities, or supernatural abilities. It is immune to all nonmagical attack forms. Even when hit by spells or magic weapons, it has a 50% chance to ignore any damage from a corporeal source (except for positive energy, negative energy, force effects such as magic missile, or attacks made with ghost touch weapons). Although it is not a magical attack, holy water can affect incorporeal undead, but a hit with holy water has a 50% chance of not affecting an incorporeal creature.

Idiot.

Quote from: Domina on December 21, 2023, 04:00:01 PM
An incorporeal creature has no physical body.

Shadows are not incorporeal.

Quote from: Domina on December 21, 2023, 04:00:01 PM
Idiot.

Ignorant Moron.

Shadow   Greater Shadow
Size/Type:   Medium Undead (Incorporeal)   Medium Undead (Incorporeal)

Please, continue embarrassing yourself.