Quote from: TempleHardly a persuasive argument.

TheRPGsite, RPGnet, The Forge, ENworld, et al are basically all irrelevant to the greater body of the hobby at large in the real world.  By and large they don't even serve as a representative sample of it.

THe fact that the Forge itself is, even now, a pretty small minority among the online community, only cements that.  They are more visible now, thanks to events like the Theory forum closing, and the unwarranted attention given him by folks on sites like this, but their actually numbers aren't even realyl that much more than they were 5 or 10 years ago.  

They're a niche of a niche of a niche that isn't even terribly appealing to aanyone outside that niche.  And to top it off, their lead man is a complete nutter, who says things like how playing Vampire is like child abuse.

They deserve irrelavancy the same way HYBRID guy or FATAL guy do.

Quote from: J ArcaneAnd the resulting shitstorm of a culture clash, as ex-Forgies and Forge-lovers alike began flooding RPGnet and elsewhere; the ensuing flames ultimately doing more to increase the presence and awareness of the Forge and it's "theory" than anything that had been done prior put together.

I really dont understand how the Big Model and GNS can be harmful.. I mean, theyre just tools for understanding what rpgs are.

You dont buy into them? Well, thats perfectly ok! Lots of theories have dissidents, and a theory about somthing as ephemeral as roleplaying (asopposed to hard, physical phenomena) can never be "proven" in any case.

I dont hate String theory. Why do so many people hate GNS and the Big Model?

Quote from: J ArcaneTheRPGsite, RPGnet, The Forge, ENworld, et al are basically all irrelevant to the greater body of the hobby at large in the real world.  By and large they don't even serve as a representative sample of it.

True.
But how are the actual roleplaying games coming out of these communities irrelevant? Irrelevant in what context?

Quote from: Settembrini@ joewolz: Did you really just say that?

-10 reputation points.

@temple: I´m saying this site is beig flooded and subverted by swine. And that EVERY thread gives them sales, what they admit.
http://www.lumpley.com/comment.php?entry=149

Interesting. So this thread is basically:

1) fidn out that threads about the Forge make them money

2) decide that you don't want the Forge to make money

3) start a thread about the Forge

Ummm.... Yeah. That'll work. :rolleyes:

Quote from: James McMurrayInteresting. So this thread is basically:

1) fidn out that threads about the Forge make them money

2) decide that you don't want the Forge to make money

3) start a thread about the Forge

Precisely. I have my gaming hatreds and insecurities, just like any internet wanker with an over-inflated sense of self-importance.

But really, when I really don't like something, I just don't talk about it.

And yes, much like Sett, I chafe a bit when people keep on talking about it without me. But at that point, I've pretty much reached the end of my influence except to talk about something else that I do like.

Speaking of which, I think it's high time for a Spycraft thread or two, don't you?

Quote from: TempleI really dont understand how the Big Model and GNS can be harmful.. I mean, theyre just tools for understanding what rpgs are.

You dont buy into them? Well, thats perfectly ok! Lots of theories have dissidents, and a theory about somthing as ephemeral as roleplaying (asopposed to hard, physical phenomena) can never be "proven" in any case.

I dont hate String theory. Why do so many people hate GNS and the Big Model?

Dude, you're talking about a theory that's founded on nothing more than "My tastes are objectively right, all other tastes are evil."  Are you really so clueless as to miss that shit completely?  It's not even subtext, the guy comes out and says that shit plain as day, it's right there, the "literal brain damage", the comparing Vampire to actual child abuse, the works.  

GNS isn't a theory, it isn't analysis, it's a hamhanded justification of one guy's ignorance, nothing but subjective taste and bad game experience generalized to all gaming, and tarted up with pseudo intellectual language to try and make it seem objective.  The GNS terms themselves effectively have no real definition, becasue even Ron himself just calles whatever game he likes "narrativist", and uses the other two terms as labels to slap on whatever he doesn't.

It's just one lone nutter who managed to get an audience of fans by appealing to their sense of elitism, and targeting individuals who've had bad game experiences in the past by overinflating those experiences' relevance to the hobby at large.

The whole thing boils down to "I had a bad game once, therefeor all games like it are evil."  It's fundamental core is such broken non-logic that it's effectively useless.  

Seriously, this is bat country here.  This is Fred Phelps, Jack Thompson, Byron Hall, C++, and the crazy guy on the street who smells like dead cat and keeps going on about the brain worms.  

But for the random throw of fate and a few clever PR moves, all of them would would pretty much be the crazy homeless guy.

Quote from: J Arcane"My tastes are objectively right, all other tastes are evil."

See, I dont see any of that when I read theory-discussions about Forge theories. I dont understand why you do. It might just be me thats wrong, it might be you. I dont know.
All I know is that as a designer and a part of the norwegian design community, I see a lot of usefullness and value in GNS and the Big Model, and I know tons of other people who do too. People who have nothing against traditional roleplaying games.

Quote from: TempleSee, I dont see any of that when I read theory-discussions about Forge theories. I dont understand why you do.

I don't see that when I read GNS/the big model. I feel like its more a jargon set that has been finessed into uselessness and I think its' creators think wrongly that it represents something more pure and true than what it is, which is an observation and codification.

Brain Damage, on the other hand does have that whiff. As do some other rantings I've read from Ron and Clinton.

Quote from: Caesar SlaadBrain Damage, on the other hand does have that whiff. As do some other rantings I've read from Ron and Clinton.

That's just it.  Ron and Clinton.  Two guys.  Maybe a handful of others.

Where's all the rest of the drivel, though?  Can someone provide examples of all the hate that you folks believe the "swine" are stirring up?

Quote from: phasmaphobicThat's just it.  Ron and Clinton.  Two guys.  Maybe a handful of others.

Where's all the rest of the drivel, though?  Can someone provide examples of all the hate that you folks believe the "swine" are stirring up?

Must this discussion happen again?

I find GNS and the big model (and most other RPG theory to boot) intellectually defective, and I find the proselytising really annoying, but that's about it for me. On the other hand, I find the other side to be just as intellectually dubious and their proselytising just as annoying much of the time.

Quote from: BrantaiMust this discussion happen again?

Sure.  Why not.  Sett got it started (again?), someone might as well follow through.

Quote from: phasmaphobicThat's just it.  Ron and Clinton.  Two guys.  Maybe a handful of others.

Oh, certainly. I know plenty of folks over at the forge who are very smart, creative guys who lack that arrogant air. Just like this board, it's a board of individuals. But Ron and Clinton are sort of leaders on the board, and pretty much call the shots over there, so I think that a lot of what they said gets associated with the forge (right or wrong.)

That said, do you think it's fair to say that there is a good percentage of the forge that believe in the brain damage rant?

Similar to how Pundit's ranting gets associated with this board.

Quote from: phasmaphobicThat's just it.  Ron and Clinton.  Two guys.  Maybe a handful of others.

Where's all the rest of the drivel, though?  Can someone provide examples of all the hate that you folks believe the "swine" are stirring up?

Most folks are reluctant to go hunting for it, especially because the worst of it happened on RPG.net, which doesn't have a working search function, or the Forge, which most folks here don't have accounts at.

If you'll accept my testimony, it did indeed happen, and just as much vitriol was hurled back at them. It's not really the sort of situation in which anyone has clean hands. Folks get worked up and say some really dumb and nasty shit to one another.