This is a site for discussing roleplaying games. Have fun doing so, but there is one major rule: do not discuss political issues that aren't directly and uniquely related to the subject of the thread and about gaming. While this site is dedicated to free speech, the following will not be tolerated: devolving a thread into unrelated political discussion, sockpuppeting (using multiple and/or bogus accounts), disrupting topics without contributing to them, and posting images that could get someone fired in the workplace (an external link is OK, but clearly mark it as Not Safe For Work, or NSFW). If you receive a warning, please take it seriously and either move on to another topic or steer the discussion back to its original RPG-related theme.

Author Topic: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.  (Read 11848 times)

Brantai

  • Fighter of the Night Man
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 309
I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
« Reply #30 on: August 02, 2007, 03:52:50 PM »
Quote from: Settembrini
See? Even this thread is used as a propaganda instrument.
names are named, people are referenced, good things are said.

Now this is a necessary evil for the thread to end the war.
But even as we discuss, it happens.

This shall be the last post in which I brought any attention whatsoever to the forge.
I URGE everyone who is interested in their online-demise to do likewise.
Try it, one week, and see how different things will be around here.

Try it. One week. Then decide for yourself.

This is going to be awesome

James J Skach

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5007
I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
« Reply #31 on: August 02, 2007, 03:53:00 PM »
Quote from: Temple
Still, the games being discussed in that snippet sell pretty well anyway.

Don't take this the wrong way - cause I certainly haven't accomplished what these folks who have sold 2000 copies of a game have done - but pretty well?  I mean, this is part of the thing that I think needs to be challenged.  Pretty well compared to what? And that's not being snarky...I mean, really - what was the goal?

Even taking the numbers Koltar gave us from Comic and Game Retailes (or whatever it was), if calculated, would give us some like 27,000 D&D books in a month - yes (Average of 27 and 1,000 Gaming stores)? GURPS, one of the most crunchy, GM centric games is selling 2000 a month.

So, congrats to anyone who has sold 100 copies of something that was a work of passion.  Good on ya, mate. But when people say pretty well, I wish it would always be accompanied by "for a micro-press operation" or something.

Quote from: Temple
Geez louise, man! Its not like its the Borg were talking about here!
Why does it have to be a conspiracy to wipe traditional gaming from the face of the earth? Why cant it be a new kind of rpg among many successful, good rpgs?

Well, I think people that say things like "GM Fiat is damaging/corrosive to the hobby" require some sort of understanding and response. It doesn't have to be a conspiracy.  It just needs to be said over and over and parroted in enough places that people think it's true - without any objective measure of fact involved.
The rules are my slave, not my master. - Old Geezer

The RPG Haven - Talking About RPGs

Alnag

  • Eques Arcanus
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 442
    • http://www.d20.cz
I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
« Reply #32 on: August 02, 2007, 03:53:40 PM »
Quote from: Settembrini
Try it. One week. Then decide for yourself.


You know. I will give you that one week... I will make it a cease-fire for that time. Discussing just games we like and such. But let me tell you, I doubt it will work. I am bit unsettled by that sudden income of so many youg indie designers with "good intentions" in late weeks, that I think we are actually under last attack right now. I hope, you are right. See you next week here for evaluation than.
In nomine Ordinis! & La vérité vaincra!
_______________________________
Currently playing: Qin: The Warring States
Currently GMing: Star Wars Saga, Esoterrorists

Temple

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • T
  • Posts: 110
I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
« Reply #33 on: August 02, 2007, 03:54:58 PM »
Quote from: Alnag
Because my dear, these are direct quotes (just translated) I meet with from Forge-fans. And that is even worse than Borg. This is like leeches sucking blood from traditional gaming. Subverting it on every imaginable level.

It could be new kind of rpgs, if it would not behave to its older brothers like a cuckoo. But that is happening, so if you think, I will just stand and look and do nothing, then I am sorry. But I will fight. For equality of all games, all approaches and all play-styles.

You should answer for yourself this question. Do you think, one can have discussion like this on the Forge? Do you think, the Forge would be willing to discuss the flaws of their own approach in the way that is possible here? Without moderation in favour of one kind of games only?


Heh, were championing the same cause: Equality for all games.

As Ive said, the Forge can be aggravating. There are people there who are full of themselves, and the rpg-theory they spawn can be interpreted as both benign and malignant. There is no doubt in my mind that it in turn spawns elitism among some.
But what is happening here is equally bad, IMO. Instead of seeing these new games as an enrichment, and alowing the ego-strokers to stroke their egoes in peace, theRPGsite is spewing hate and vitriol that can only make things worse.

So practice what you preach,squire. Equality for all games. Dont give "the enemy" (which are those who equate "new" with "better.") more power. Because to me, that is whats happening right now.
 

Temple

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • T
  • Posts: 110
I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
« Reply #34 on: August 02, 2007, 03:57:14 PM »
Quote from: Spike
Sure it could. Language is fluid and adapts to the times.  If, for example, the majority of this site... and to be realistically unrealistic, the RPG.net, suddenly organized and refused to discuss or even contemplate purchacing of 'Indie Press games', then there would be, I rather suspect, a sharp decline in the already limited sales of said games.

It would be, then, a boycott in fact, rather just in concept.


Yes, yes it would. That is the very definition of a boycott in practice.

Pretending that Forge rpgs dont exist as far as theRPGsite is concerned, however, is not.
 

Temple

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • T
  • Posts: 110
I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
« Reply #35 on: August 02, 2007, 04:00:03 PM »
Quote from: Settembrini
Thusly, cease fire, let the bastards sink back to the irrelevance they deserve.

How are they irrelevant?
 

Temple

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • T
  • Posts: 110
I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
« Reply #36 on: August 02, 2007, 04:05:06 PM »
Quote from: James J Skach
Pretty well compared to what?


Not compared to anything?

Just.. You know.. Pretty well? As in, not horribly? As in, not incredibly well?

If you have to compare it to soemthing to make sense of it,then try this: They sell pretty well compared to how they would have sold if they were "irrelevant."

There are people who want them, because they think they are fun to play. These people buy them. Theres really nothing more to it.
 

Brantai

  • Fighter of the Night Man
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 309
I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
« Reply #37 on: August 02, 2007, 04:07:23 PM »
Quote from: Temple
How are they irrelevant?

Didn't you hear?  He's not talking about them for at least a week.

Caesar Slaad

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3585
I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
« Reply #38 on: August 02, 2007, 04:09:48 PM »
Quote from: Settembrini
See? Even this thread is used as a propaganda instrument.
names are named, people are referenced, good things are said.

Now this is a necessary evil for the thread to end the war.
But even as we discuss, it happens.

This shall be the last post in which I brought any attention whatsoever to the forge.
I URGE everyone who is interested in their online-demise to do likewise.
Try it, one week, and see how different things will be around here.

Try it. One week. Then decide for yourself.


Your probably right. The existence of this forum and its fixation on slighting or resisting the tide of indie games probably helps get the word out.

But, despite not liking or in some cases rather actively disliking the shape of indie games, I'm just not invested in stemming that tide. Players who do find something to their liking will find it there; those that don't (even if I'm numbered among them) won't. Us discussing indie games is not going to make the gaming populace convert to indie games like wildfire.

Now on the other hand, people who play XXXXXX XXXXXX AND XXXXXXX XXX XXXXXXXX could affect my player base and we shouldn't talk about those games. :emot-ssh:
The Secret Volcano Base: my intermittently updated RPG blog.

Running: Pathfinder Scarred Lands, Mutants & Masterminds, Masks, Starfinder, Bulldogs!
Playing: Sigh. Nothing.
Planning: Some Cyberpunk thing, system TBD.

J Arcane

  • Esquire
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7790
    • http://www.bedroomwallpress.com
I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
« Reply #39 on: August 02, 2007, 04:10:51 PM »
Quote from: Temple
Yes, yes it would. That is the very definition of a boycott in practice.

Pretending that Forge rpgs dont exist as far as theRPGsite is concerned, however, is not.
Worked for RPGnet for a very long time.  I wouldn't say they necessarily pretended they didn't exist, so much as it just didn't come up hardly ever.  There had been a few GNS flamewars sometime before, and I think that led a lot of people to just dismiss it as a bunch of useless nonsense, not least because no one could actually agree on what any of the terms really meant.

In those days, the Forge pretty much stayed on the Forge.  Then Ron declared the Gospel of the Big Model.  Shut down the theory debate forum, declaring that any future discussion was unnecessary.  Post haste, all the navel gazers had to find new places to babble incoherently, and all the GNS/Ron loyalists had to go into into the world and declare the newly canonized gospel.  

And the resulting shitstorm of a culture clash, as ex-Forgies and Forge-lovers alike began flooding RPGnet and elsewhere; the ensuing flames ultimately doing more to increase the presence and awareness of the Forge and it's "theory" than anything that had been done prior put together.
Bedroom Wall Press - Games that make you feel like a kid again.

Arcana Rising - An Urban Fantasy Roleplaying Game, powered by Hulks and Horrors.
Hulks and Horrors - A Sci-Fi Roleplaying game of Exploration and Dungeon Adventure
Heaven's Shadow - A Roleplaying Game of Faith and Assassination

J Arcane

  • Esquire
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7790
    • http://www.bedroomwallpress.com
I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
« Reply #40 on: August 02, 2007, 04:12:38 PM »
Quote from: Temple
How are they irrelevant?

They always were irrelevant.  They just forgot it for a time.  As have a number of people here.
Bedroom Wall Press - Games that make you feel like a kid again.

Arcana Rising - An Urban Fantasy Roleplaying Game, powered by Hulks and Horrors.
Hulks and Horrors - A Sci-Fi Roleplaying game of Exploration and Dungeon Adventure
Heaven's Shadow - A Roleplaying Game of Faith and Assassination

Temple

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • T
  • Posts: 110
I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
« Reply #41 on: August 02, 2007, 04:12:53 PM »
Quote from: Brantai
Didn't you hear?  He's not talking about them for at least a week.


Well, then he can come back here in a weeks time and answer me, if he wants to. :)
 

James J Skach

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5007
I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
« Reply #42 on: August 02, 2007, 04:13:21 PM »
Quote from: Temple
Not compared to anything?

Just.. You know.. Pretty well? As in, not horribly? As in, not incredibly well?

If you have to compare it to soemthing to make sense of it,

I don't have to.  You are implying something when you say pretty well.  It's a nice, easy thing to say because everyone will project their own ideas on to it. I'm asking you to provide some more detail so I can understand what you mean when you say it so as to avoid confusion in coversation.

You say pretty well, and I think "What? It's like, 4% of GURPS!" When what you really mean is "it's not completely irrelevant - some people somewhere like it."

Now that's cleared up for me.

Quote from: Temple
There are people who want them, because they think they are fun to play. These people buy them. Theres really nothing more to it.

I agree.  nothing more to it.  Which is why I'm continually perplexed when statements are made about the objective weakness or superiority of this or that.
The rules are my slave, not my master. - Old Geezer

The RPG Haven - Talking About RPGs

Temple

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • T
  • Posts: 110
I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
« Reply #43 on: August 02, 2007, 04:13:27 PM »
Quote from: J Arcane
They always were irrelevant.  They just forgot it for a time.  As have a number of people here.


Hardly a persuasive argument. ;)
 

Temple

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • T
  • Posts: 110
I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
« Reply #44 on: August 02, 2007, 04:14:39 PM »
Quote from: James J Skach
I agree.  nothing more to it.  Which is why I'm continually perplexed when statements are made about the objective weakness or superiority of this or that.


Me too. Its really hard to fathom.