I think Heroes of Hellas is an extremely good variant of BoL - its probably my favourite of all of the BoL genre books. I understand a new edition is in the works.

Quote from: Madprofessor;978523I bought Blood and Bronze a couple of moths ago.  It is focused on ancient Mesopotamia, the rules, I thought were both oversimplified and a little clunky for what they achieved, but some of the hooks and setting material stuff was quite good.  I've not played the game or even made a character so maybe I'm not giving it a fair shake - that's just my first impression.

I have to agree with you about Blood and Bronze.  I was excited about the game until I read the rules.  Did not click with me.

If I were to choose, I would choose Heroes of Hellas first and then Mazes & Minotaurs.

Quote from: Gruntfuttock;979006Worth pointing out that Heroes of Hellas is a supplement to BoL, written for the Legendary Edition, which you would need to run it. It gives a great game of Harryhausen/300 style Greek Heroes. Provided you are up with BoL's rules light nature and use of Hero Points, it would work great for this sort of game. The author has mentioned putting out a new edition for the current (superior IMHO) Mythic Edition of BoL - but no idea how advanced that is.

If you are solidly OSR, then Mazes and Monsters is the best choice. If you want something more crunchy, then a BPR/D100 system is probably what you need.

Here's a lovely set up for such a game - http://dynastyzero.blogspot.co.uk/2015/12/would-you-like-little-salt-with-that.html

By the way, Heroes of Hellas has a good naval combat mini-system, that was adapted for Barbarians of Lemuria Mythic Edition.

Thanks for the mention.  I'd forgotten I had written that.

Quote from: Narmer;979966I have to agree with you about Blood and Bronze.  I was excited about the game until I read the rules.  Did not click with me.

If I were to choose, I would choose Heroes of Hellas first and then Mazes & Minotaurs.

Both Zenobia and Blood and Bronze have wonderful content and absolutely minimal mechanics that support them.  Both games put their rules at the end of the book, almost as an afterthought to the setting.  

It is hard to figure out what is going on with these games. I mean, where is the game?

This is what I think: Zenobia is philosophically minimalist, beyond rules lite, as a narrative approach to Roleplaying.  Some narrative games like 2d20 Conan add rules to force narrative style play, where Zenobia removes rules to allow for narrative style play.  It replaces rules with ideas. It is very well done in its own way, but is a very hard game for a "traditional" GM like me to hang his hat on.  

Blood and Bronze seems less clever.  There is a little more game, but it is still about half of BoL, which is still pretty lite. I read it again last night.  There are some cool ideas, but I can't see myself playing it. Its also a little more ad hoc with d20 attribute saves and d6 dice pool skills. Weird.

As there are so few bronze age games out there, and practically no adventures to speak of, both of these will be useful at the table for their content, but I can't see using their systems for a long term campaign.

Quote from: tenbones;979932It's one of the reasons I recommend people take a look. I think it would be ridiculously easy. Atlantis *is* very Sword-and-Sandals already. You just need to decide what to leave out. Most of the races can easily be re-skinned, or dropped. The mechanics don't require any touching, really. You'll just have to do a sifting of what you don't like, and adjust cultural stuff to your taste. I don't think it would require a lot of work at all. The Atlantis map (it's gorgeous) is a fantasy version of Earth already.

Well, I don't know if I'll use it, but you certainly sold it!

Quote from: AsenRG;979929Sorry, Madprofessor, but Atlantis is among the few RPGs I'm interested in that I still haven't read:).

Or just use this link and save yourself two clicks;).
I'm a fan of Paul Elliott's work in general, Zenobia/43 AD,  Grunt and Traveller very much included!

Didn' t realize he also did Grunt. Impressive.

I would use Scarlet Heroes.

I almost suggested Paleomythic, but it's more Stone Age & Sorcery, so way too early a time frame for Sword & Sandal type stuff

Quote from: Madprofessor;979977Both Zenobia and Blood and Bronze have wonderful content and absolutely minimal mechanics that support them.  Both games put their rules at the end of the book, almost as an afterthought to the setting.  

It is hard to figure out what is going on with these games.

Well, in the case of Zenobia, it's sitting there while being underapreciated:p.

QuoteI mean, where is the game?

Outside of the numbers;).

QuoteThis is what I think: Zenobia is philosophically minimalist, beyond rules lite, as a narrative approach to Roleplaying.

Weird. Zenobia always struck me as the incarnation of old-school gamist play. Simple rules, no fuss, make a ruling and go on, ruins galore that you can explore...anyone:D?

QuoteSome narrative games like 2d20 Conan add rules to force narrative style play, where Zenobia removes rules to allow for narrative style play.

I'd say it removes rules, period:).
This, then, might allow for any style of game, except gamist-relying-on-mechanical-interactions.

QuoteIt replaces rules with ideas.

I'd say it supplements ideas with a smattering of rules.
Like the rule for skills: if you have a skill, you can do that thing. Period. Roll Craft/Learning/Prowess for someone attempting an unfamiliar, but easy, or just disallow them.

QuoteIt is very well done in its own way, but is a very hard game for a "traditional" GM like me to hang his hat on.

Weird, I also consider myself a "traditional" GM, and see no obstacles. The only thing to do differently is to prepare, because the mechanics aren't going to take a lot of playtime in the session.

QuoteAs there are so few bronze age games out there, and practically no adventures to speak of, both of these will be useful at the table for their content, but I can't see using their systems for a long term campaign.

Well, at least we agree about the setting;).

Quote from: Voros;979998Didn' t realize he also did Grunt. Impressive.

He did, and I remember he discussed the rules on TBP while writing the game;).

Quote from: AsenRG;980043Well, in the case of Zenobia, it's sitting there while being underapreciated:p.

We're just a little off topic here but...

I just got my copy of 43 AD in the mail last night from LuLu and was able to give it a quick read.  I must say that it is some of the best writing that I have ever seen in an RPG product.  It is seriously well-done.  The detail of life in the legion, and the darkness of untamed Britain is fantastic, as is the GM advice on how to run a military campaign within the social dynamics of an RPG group.  It's 200 pages of system neutral, and actually useful, campaign advice. To the contrary of your statement, I deeply appreciate it as an RPG supplement... It also contains about 20 pages of weak-ass rules.  

This + Cthulhu Invictus = a brilliant historical sword and sandal horror rpg, IMO.  The setting material in 43 AD is so far above the generic crud published by Chaosium... they're not even in the same plane.

QuoteWeird. Zenobia always struck me as the incarnation of old-school gamist play. Simple rules, no fuss, make a ruling and go on, ruins galore that you can explore...anyone:D?

Well, I used the term "narrativist" a little lightly and flippantly.  But it is clear here that what I call "weak-ass rules" are not an afterthought or the result of armature game-design. This is conscious and intentional minimalism, a bit like the Prince Valiant RPG.  You are right that it can be played completely IC, but without mechanics it relies almost completely on narration and description, like the make-believe world-parameters are the rules. If D&D is like wargaming superimposed over play-pretend, then Zenobia strips away most of the wargame. In place of rules, it is just adult play-pretend regulated by social contract and highly detailed milieu. It's quite cool, but my groups would just be like "wow, this game has weak-ass rules."

Quote from: Madprofessor;980067We're just a little off topic here but...

I just got my copy of 43 AD in the mail last night from LuLu and was able to give it a quick read.  I must say that it is some of the best writing that I have ever seen in an RPG product.  It is seriously well-done.  The detail of life in the legion, and the darkness of untamed Britain is fantastic, as is the GM advice on how to run a military campaign within the social dynamics of an RPG group.  It's 200 pages of system neutral, and actually useful, campaign advice. To the contrary of your statement, I deeply appreciate it as an RPG supplement... It also contains about 20 pages of weak-ass rules.  

This + Cthulhu Invictus = a brilliant historical sword and sandal horror rpg, IMO.  The setting material in 43 AD is so far above the generic crud published by Chaosium... they're not even in the same plane.

Do you have the Mythras supplement Mythic Rome, or the BRP supplement Rome: Life and Death of the Republic? I was wondering if you could give a comparison.

I'm glad that the weak ass rules are only 20 pages easily ignorable

Quote from: Raleel;980073Do you have the Mythras supplement Mythic Rome

Nope, is it finished? I hadn't heard anything about this.  Is it available? Is it a reprint of BRP Rome?

Quoteor the BRP supplement Rome: Life and Death of the Republic? I was wondering if you could give a comparison.

I do have this, and it is excellent. Pete (along with Loz) is one of the best writers in the biz.  However it is very different from 43 AD.  Pete's Rome is a broad overview of the empire over a long period and is pretty inclusive alowing for all different types of characters in different regions, in different times, and using different play-styles.  The scope is quite large.

In contrast, 43 AD is extremely narrow.  It focuses on playing legionary characters in a military/horror campaign in untamed 1st century Britain. The camera lens is much tighter.

Both are way above RPG standards in terms historical awareness and depth.

QuoteI'm glad that the weak ass rules are only 20 pages easily ignorable

Yes, to my mind it (and Zenobia) is at its best as a systems neutral campaign supplement.  

And actually, the rules that are there, like for magic or social class for example, are conceptually strong and easily stolen and redefined in whatever rules you play... If you are that kind of GM that likes to kit-bash rules systems.

Quote from: urbwar;980032I almost suggested Paleomythic, but it's more Stone Age & Sorcery, so way too early a time frame for Sword & Sandal type stuff

Oooh, Shiny!  That looks wicked cool.  There needs to be more neolithic stone age type RPGs.  In fact, I can't think of any other than GURPS Ice Age. I'll have to get this.

QuoteNope, is it finished? I hadn't heard anything about this. Is it available? Is it a reprint of BRP Rome?

It's been out for a while... http://thedesignmechanism.com/products.php#!/Mythic-Earth/c/24197109/offset=0&sort=normal

It is a reworking of Pete's BRP supplement, but with new layout and art, and obviously converted to Mythras. If you have Rome: Life and Death, you don't strictly need Mythic Rome, but we'd never dream of talking you out of buying a copy...

Quote from: Madprofessor;980088Nope, is it finished? I hadn't heard anything about this.  Is it available? Is it a reprint of BRP Rome?



I do have this, and it is excellent. Pete (along with Loz) is one of the best writers in the biz.  However it is very different from 43 AD.  Pete's Rome is a broad overview of the empire over a long period and is pretty inclusive alowing for all different types of characters in different regions, in different times, and using different play-styles.  The scope is quite large.

In contrast, 43 AD is extremely narrow.  It focuses on playing legionary characters in a military/horror campaign in untamed 1st century Britain. The camera lens is much tighter.

Both are way above RPG standards in terms historical awareness and depth.



Yes, to my mind it (and Zenobia) is at its best as a systems neutral campaign supplement.  

And actually, the rules that are there, like for magic or social class for example, are conceptually strong and easily stolen and redefined in whatever rules you play... If you are that kind of GM that likes to kit-bash rules systems.

I am very much that. thanks for the insights! As Loz pointed out, Mythic Rome is out. it's quite good!