TheRPGSite

Our very own Poobah of the D.O.N.G tenbones had a post about bronze age gaming in another thread.  What he wrote was pretty cool and got me thinking of gaming in the bronze age, something that I've never done.  What would you use to run a bronze age game?

Damn you! This is going to derail my current campaign...

Okay! What are we talking about? System? Setting? Real world herbs and spices for flavor?

Quote from: tenbones;978425Damn you! This is going to derail my current campaign...

Okay! What are we talking about? System? Setting? Real world herbs and spices for flavor?

All of it my friend, all of it!

Personally I'd use Heroes of Olympus, since I have it and like it, and I also have the supplement for Egypt that was published in Nexus magazine. It seems to do everything I need, including rules for sailing voyages.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]1174[/ATTACH]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]1175[/ATTACH]

Wanderer would be perfect.

Quote from: Pat;978431Wanderer would be perfect.

This one?
[ATTACH=CONFIG]1176[/ATTACH]

Quote from: Dumarest;978434This one?

Yes ;)

More seriously, Mercator (http://www.freelancetraveller.com/magazine/2010-04/mercator.pdf) (PDF) might be worth a glance.

QuoteOriginally Posted by Tenbones
I think the key thing here is, as always when I talk about these things, is making sure you put your players deep into the context of the world. It's not enough for me to just watch the movies and know the fables, it's about taking all of that and putting it in context with Bronze Age cultures and bringing it all to life. A lot of this stuff is slightly tweaked material from standard S&S fantasy, but with bigger "legendary" stuff.

- the gods (and their enemies) are active! PC's get cursed/blessed which by itself makes them have enemies
- legendary beasts. Go full Kaiju if you have to. Give them fatal flaws, but exploiting those flaws are major quests unto themselves
- ancient cults that have big secrets they protect. Screwing with them makes enemies of various powers.
- Wars! City states are always seeking to expand, or at least crush their enemies!
- Mysteries and Secrets of the Powers. The world looks normal, but there are secret rules known only to the Powers that certain mortals can learn (and abuse). As always, just knowing this stuff can/will make you enemies and friends with other Powers.
- Bronze Age historical fun. Chariot races, gladiatorial fighting, raping the horses and riding off on the women etc.

This is all really good stuff.

So I have run a lot of Swords and Sandals stuff: A Cthulhu Invictus game, tons of Hyborian Age stuff, a death of the 9th legion mini-campaign using BRP, etc. I much prefer this type of adventure to your bog standard fantasy-medieval stuff. What I have never been able to pull off is a Jason and the Argonauts, Clash of the Titans, Homeric style Greek/Eastern Med style game.  I've tried, but its never worked. Nor have I known anyone who has pulled it off. So I'm all ears here and eager for suggestions.

I would use Runequest6/Mythras.

Quote from: Pat;978431Wanderer would be perfect.

It would be perfect if it existed.  Are there any serious plans to do this?

For a rules lite game system I think Heroes of Hellas (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/117629/Heroes-Of-Hellas) is a serious contender.  It is BoL re-skinned for Greek myth and it's well done.

Quote from: Madprofessor;978446It would be perfect if it existed.  Are there any serious plans to do this?

There was a thread on ODD74, but it's been dead for almost a decade. And I linked to Mercator upthread, which is a similar attempt to rethink Traveller for the Bronze Age. It's more sword & sandals than the sword & sandals & centaurs of the other suggestions in this thread, but I think that still could make an excellent game. Even without the monsters of mythology, the Bronze Age Mediterranean is a fascinating place.

Quote from: Pat;978452There was a thread on ODD74, but it's been dead for almost a decade.

Too bad.  What a fantastic idea. Somebody should pick this up.  I'd buy it. Was there a legality problem, or just not enough energy/enthusiasm?

QuoteAnd I linked to Mercator upthread, which is a similar attempt to rethink Traveller for the Bronze Age.

I had no idea that this existed, I'm reading it enthusiastically.

QuoteIt's more sword & sandals than the sword & sandals & centaurs of the other suggestions in this thread, but I think that still could make an excellent game. Even without the monsters of mythology, the Bronze Age Mediterranean is a fascinating place.

Yeah, well that is big question.  How gonzo with gods and monsters do you want your game?  For example, should there be PC sorcerers/magic users, or not? Is "magic" purely the domain of gods and titans? Does magic even exist?  What about magi of far of Persia, spirit shamans of the Scythian steppes, or death magic of the Pharaohs? Certainly, there is plenty of adventure to be had with just history and mortal foes, plots and adventures, but I don't think it would feel right without at least the perception of occult mystery.  Anyway, drawing those lines about magic I think is an important starting point.

Well there is Blood & Bronze, which is set in the time period. If I was going for the old Sword & Sandal movie feel, I'd likely use Pax Gladius from Deep 7's 1PG rpg line. For Jason & The Argonauts style, Heroes of Hellas.

Quote from: Pyromancer;978445I would use Runequest6/Mythras.

I would do this. It even has Mythic Rome, and Mythic Greece is on the way. The freebie download adventure is a straight up inspiration from Harryhausen's Seven Voyages of Sinbad with it's multi-armed statue coming to life. It has hoplons and bronze armor as the default and spears and xystons. It's sample characters are bronze age inspired, and seemingly from a greek style city-state. It has brotherhoods and cults and magic in the style that you would expect. It has great support for tuning combat styles so that your gladiators all are trained differently. There are harpies and cyclopses and minotaurs and chimera, oh my.

literally, if you run it out of the box, it does this pretty well dead on. there is even a for pay adventure (http://drivethrurpg.com/product/200719/Xamoxis-Cleansing) to continue on from the free Sariyana's Curse. Also, happen to be 25% on DTRPG right now.

I'd use some form of BRP/Mythras... but I'm currently in a campaign of Mazes & Minotaurs and that has been a lot of fun as well.

Runequest is the obvious answer. It was created from the get-go for this sort of purpose, and it is excellent, well known and well supported.

For my game, anyway:

How gonzo with gods and monsters do you want your game?  Not very. It will feel like Greek mythology. No Coke machines at the oracle.

For example, should there be PC sorcerers/magic users, or not?  No, it'll be like Pendragon where any wizards are in the hands of the ref.

Is "magic" purely the domain of gods and titans? Yes.

Does magic even exist?  Yes, see above.

What about magi of far of Persia, spirit shamans of the Scythian steppes, or death magic of the Pharaohs? If the PCs get out that way, sure.

My aborted attempt was with Hero System, using their Mythic Greece supplement.  (It's either 3rd ed. Champions based or 4th ed. Hero based.  I forget which.)  I don't think the supplement was our problem, as it did a fairly decent job of providing some appropriate power structures, motivations, and background material.  And Hero would seem to be at least a plausible way to go when playing just shy of the demi-god level.  Those are practically superhero fantasy characters already.  I think the problems we had was in our heads, not the system, but take the anecdote as you will.

Quote from: urbwar;978459Well there is Blood & Bronze, which is set in the time period. If I was going for the old Sword & Sandal movie feel, I'd likely use Pax Gladius from Deep 7's 1PG rpg line. For Jason & The Argonauts style, Heroes of Hellas.

Got links?

Are these D&D derivatives or original systems made for the setting?

Quote from: Raleel;978461I would do this.

Yes, clearly Mythras would be an excellent, probably the best, choice.  I am a little burned out on d100 at the moment, but I cannot, in good conscience, disagree.  Just me personally, but I'm searching for something a little lighter.

Quote...and Mythic Greece is on the way.

Is it?!? Really?!? I thought it was dead.  Where do I sign up?

QuoteThe freebie download adventure is a straight up inspiration from Harryhausen's Seven Voyages of Sinbad with it's multi-armed statue coming to life.

Actually that's "Golden Voyage" with the muti-armed Hindu god statue. Ahem...

Quote from: Madprofessor;978470Actually that's "Golden Voyage" with the muti-armed Hindu god statue. Ahem...

[ATTACH=CONFIG]1177[/ATTACH]

But more importantly, it has Caroline Munro.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]1178[/ATTACH]

There's an RQ6 Bronze Age supplement on DTRPG for about the price of a Happy Meal. But it's in Spanish.

Quote from: Madprofessor;978470Yes, clearly Mythras would be an excellent, probably the best, choice.  I am a little burned out on d100 at the moment, but I cannot, in good conscience, disagree.  Just me personally, but I'm searching for something a little lighter.



Is it?!? Really?!? I thought it was dead.  Where do I sign up?



Actually that's "Golden Voyage" with the muti-armed Hindu god statue. Ahem...

You can follow status on the TDM boards. And my apologies for getting the name wrong :)

In 1989-1990 I ran a Mythic Greece campaign. I used Mythic Greece: The Age of Heroes (Rolemaster Fantasy Hero) (https://www.amazon.com/Mythic-Greece-Heroes-Rolemaster-Fantasy/dp/1558060022) and adapted it for Runequest 2. There was very little PC magic use, but some of the heroes had very high stats (e.g. STR 30) in line with the supplement.

Quote from: Simlasa;978462I'd use some form of BRP/Mythras... but I'm currently in a campaign of Mazes & Minotaurs and that has been a lot of fun as well.

How do you like Mazes and Minotaurs? Would it handle the type of game we are discussing here?  The reviews I read made it out to be needlessly old school and purposefully outdated (I'll probably catch hell for that one), like it was some kind of weird thought experiment of "what if this was written in 1972 and it really was the first RPG?  What would that look like?" It seemed like making a functional rpg about mythic Greece was a secondary consideration... but I may be totally wrong.

Quote from: Madprofessor;978508How do you like Mazes and Minotaurs? Would it handle the type of game we are discussing here?  The reviews I read made it out to be needlessly old school and purposefully outdated (I'll probably catch hell for that one), like it was some kind of weird thought experiment of "what if this was written in 1972 and it really was the first RPG?  What would that look like?" It seemed like making a functional rpg about mythic Greece was a secondary consideration... but I may be totally wrong.

It's D&D with Greek mythology in place of Tolkien/medieval Europe. That pretty much is it.

Quote from: Dumarest;978467For my game, anyway:

How gonzo with gods and monsters do you want your game?  Not very. It will feel like Greek mythology. No Coke machines at the oracle.

For example, should there be PC sorcerers/magic users, or not?  No, it'll be like Pendragon where any wizards are in the hands of the ref.

Is "magic" purely the domain of gods and titans? Yes.

Does magic even exist?  Yes, see above.

What about magi of far of Persia, spirit shamans of the Scythian steppes, or death magic of the Pharaohs? If the PCs get out that way, sure.

So, I like this approach, it's about where I would be with it in terms of the scaling of magic and myth.  I'm just thinking out loud here:

- Monsters I think should be unique, terrifying, and like Tenbones said, have a story, flaw, or personality. No races of monsters.  There aren't krakens, or medusai rather there is the Kraken and Medusa. There might be 3 harpies, but they're sisters.  Maybe there are griffons (Herodotus talked about them all the time), but maybe they're animals not monsters - maybe.
- The most common, and the most important, foes should be human.  Gods and monsters get involved in mortal struggles, but its mortal struggles that matter.
 - Gods I think should be heavily involved in mortal affairs that they care about - that may or not be the PCs.
- Magic items should be legendary artifacts or gifts of the gods worthy of their own adventures.
- Human sorcerers exist.  I think.  Witches of Hecate (played by Caroline Monroe), Persian magi, enlightened Scholar/alchemists, Priests, oracles, and maybe even Idol worshiping Hittite necromancers, etc.  Sorcerers make good antagonists.  

Where I get stuck is whether to allow PC magic in some way.  It could ruin the flavor if not done carefully.  The problem is, I know some of my players will want to be magic using types.

QuoteGot links?

I bought Blood and Bronze (http://http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/173051/Blood--Bronze-rules) a couple of moths ago.  It is focused on ancient Mesopotamia, the rules, I thought were both oversimplified and a little clunky for what they achieved, but some of the hooks and setting material stuff was quite good.  I've not played the game or even made a character so maybe I'm not giving it a fair shake - that's just my first impression.

Quote from: Madprofessor;978523- Monsters I think should be unique, terrifying, and like Tenbones said, have a story, flaw, or personality. No races of monsters.  There aren't krakens, or medusai rather there is the Kraken and Medusa. There might be 3 harpies, but they're sisters.  Maybe there are griffons (Herodotus talked about them all the time), but maybe they're animals not monsters - maybe.

Yeah, that is exactly what I like.

Quote from: Madprofessor;978523- The most common, and the most important, foes should be human.  Gods and monsters get involved in mortal struggles, but its mortal struggles that matter.

Again, this is my preference. Some the heroes may be the son of a god or a goddess, as Heroes of Olympus allows for this to happen with random rolls at character generation, but basically they are humans vying against other humans.

Quote from: Madprofessor;978523- Gods I think should be heavily involved in mortal affairs that they care about - that may or not be the PCs.

More often than not, they don't care unless it's a favored child in extreme circumstances. But fail to pay homage or make your hecatomb and you may get some punishment to teach you the error of your ways.

Quote from: Madprofessor;978523- Magic items should be legendary artifacts or gifts of the gods worthy of their own adventures.

Yes. Heroes of Olympus has rules for this, too, if I remember right. And sometimes you can get a special item or talent due to your divine parent (if you rolled that).

Quote from: Madprofessor;978523- Human sorcerers exist.  I think.  Witches of Hecate (played by Caroline Monroe), Persian magi, enlightened Scholar/alchemists, Priests, oracles, and maybe even Idol worshiping Hittite necromancers, etc.  Sorcerers make good antagonists.

They will be few and far between, and their magic will be generally time- and effort-consuming if it is powerful, and the heroes will probably need to go on a quest to get the knowledge or item needed to counteract them.

Quote from: Madprofessor;978523Where I get stuck is whether to allow PC magic in some way.  It could ruin the flavor if not done carefully.  The problem is, I know some of my players will want to be magic using types.

For me, the only access the heroes would have to magic would be acquiring some item, like Perseus's sword and shield in the Harryhausen Jason and the Argonauts film, or by consulting an oracle or finding a mad hermit or witch of Hecate and persuading him or her to help in some way (going on a quest, making a sacrifice, rescuing from harpies, whatever). I wouldn't allow PC wizards in my game as it would make magic no longer wonderful and frightening but instead rather ordinary and a common recourse to problem-solving. But I'm picturing a group of macho Greek heroes gallivanting about on quests and adventures in the Mediterranean and environs (which is pretty much what Heroes of Olympus was made for) and I don't see a place for D&D-style "magic is readily available for PCs" in that. But my players have always been good with accepting restrictions like "no PC wizards" or "no elves." All this talk is making me want to scrap my current game and play this instead.

Oh, and another cool thing about Heroes of Olympus is every PC will be unique in his talents and background due to the way characters are rolled up. There are no classes or types.

My favorite Bronze Age Fantasy RPG is MAZES & MINOTAURS!!!
http://storygame.free.fr/MAZES.htm

I have run several short campaigns and dozens of one-shots. I am looking forward to doing so again soon!

BTW, all the editions of M&M and all the supplements and adventures are FREE.

It's easily my favorite OSR game. I've gotten hundreds of hours of fun out of the PDFs.

Quote from: Pat;978431Wanderer would be perfect.

Tell us about Wanderer!

Have you played it?

Quote from: Madprofessor;978508How do you like Mazes and Minotaurs?

Freaking love it!

Quote from: Madprofessor;978508Would it handle the type of game we are discussing here?

If you like D20 / OSR / D&D as the base system with Greek Myth via Hollywood, then it works great.

You can alter the setting easily to add in more Greek culture elements. I add some things for flavor.

There are LOTS of fan made supplements & the Minotaurian magazine where people take the setting in various directions.

Quote from: Madprofessor;978508The reviews I read made it out to be needlessly old school and purposefully outdated (I'll probably catch hell for that one), like it was some kind of weird thought experiment of "what if this was written in 1972 and it really was the first RPG?  What would that look like?" It seemed like making a functional rpg about mythic Greece was a secondary consideration... but I may be totally wrong.

You are catching hell :mad: [virtual nut punch incoming]

Its actually the reverse. It's a fully functional mythic Greek RPG, but its written in the conceit of being the very first RPG written in 1972.
Which it was.

BTW, I prefer the Classic Original Edition (1972) because it does everything I need. However, there is a Revised Edition (1987) that gives you the "Advanced M&M" experience. Anything you would expect in a fully developed RPG line you will find in the M&M line. I think it even has a GM screen.

Quote from: Spinachcat;978541Tell us about Wanderer!

Read a little further in the thread.

(It doesn't exist.)

I've done it with GURPS and BRP, both worked fine.

Quote from: Madprofessor;978508How do you like Mazes and Minotaurs? Would it handle the type of game we are discussing here?  The reviews I read made it out to be needlessly old school and purposefully outdated (I'll probably catch hell for that one), like it was some kind of weird thought experiment of "what if this was written in 1972 and it really was the first RPG?  What would that look like?" It seemed like making a functional rpg about mythic Greece was a secondary consideration... but I may be totally wrong.

Mazes & Minotaurs is a fully functional RPG, especially the "revised" edition. The conceit that it was the first RPG published and the RPG history in jokes get a bit tiresome after a while and I would love aversion edited to be just an RPG.  It is definitely on the Mythic rather than realistic end of the spectrum.

RuneQuest was originally written for a Bronze Age world and would be my choice for a more realistic game of the period.

Quote from: DavetheLost;978569The conceit that it was the first RPG published and the RPG history in jokes get a bit tiresome after a while...

I'm tired of it already. ;)

There was an interesting campaign premise in GURPS All-Stars -- Sparta has just fallen, and you're survivors. So now you have to make your way and find your purpose in a world where your training (and reputation) have made you the ultimate Bronze Age badasses.

I'm not actually recommending the book, though. The article is short (it's 1/10th the book), and spends far too much time briefly listing all the different locations scattered around the Mediterranean, instead of actually developing anything in usable depth. It's just a good idea.

Agon (http://www.agon-rpg.com/) could be a pretty good fit. It's got Jason and the Argonauts and Homer written all over it.

And at one point I was working on Adventurer (http://platonicsolid.blogspot.com/search/label/Adventurer), a fantasy version of Traveller.

Quote from: Eisenmann;978581Agon (http://www.agon-rpg.com/) could be a pretty good fit. It's got Jason and the Argonauts and Homer written all over it.

And at one point I was working on Adventurer (http://platonicsolid.blogspot.com/search/label/Adventurer), a fantasy version of Traveller.

Oh, I checked out Agon a while back...let's say it's very stylized and narrative from what I could tell. What was your experience?

Quote from: Dumarest;978585Oh, I checked out Agon a while back...let's say it's very stylized and narrative from what I could tell. What was your experience?

It was absolutely excellent. I once ran a 10 hour game with 7 players and it was the easiest game I ever ran at that scale. The lead up session to that marathon was just two PCs.  

Agon is indeed stylized, the player characters are powerful, but with things like positioning in combat it's got some grit. It's one of my favorite games of all time to run. The Strife system helps keep the wheels of the game turning and I found myself riffing along in no time. If you run it, you will cover a lot of territory in a session, which really helps make the game feel epic. it doesn't hurt that the players hold the defense dice in their left hand and their defense in the right. Oh, and oaths. Instant story hooks and fuel for glory.

Edit:

I found my play report (https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?306491-Agon-Not-near-enough-buzz-out-there-(Play-report)) over at rpg.net.

Quote from: Pat;978441Yes ;)

More seriously, Mercator (http://www.freelancetraveller.com/magazine/2010-04/mercator.pdf) (PDF) might be worth a glance.

I read part of that once...if I remember, doesn't it assume the PCs will be Romans? Still, probably could be adapted to Greek without too much work. I do wish Wanderer were real, though, although I'm sure that's just nostalgia and love for 1977 Traveller in the little box full of little books. I'm also sure if Wanderer were real it would never measure up to what my imagination would want it to be. Would still be cool. I think I may have to print out Mercator Traveller at work and put it in a binder with sheet protectors and try to run it sometime.

Quote from: Eisenmann;978588It was absolutely excellent. I once ran a 10 hour game with 7 players and it was the easiest game I ever ran at that scale. The lead up session to that marathon was just two PCs.  

Agon is indeed stylized, the player characters are powerful, but with things like positioning in combat it's got some grit. It's one of my favorite games of all time to run. The Strife system helps keep the wheels of the game turning and I found myself riffing along in no time. If you run it, you will cover a lot of territory in a session, which really helps make the game feel epic. it doesn't hurt that the players hold the defense dice in their left hand and their defense in the right. Oh, and oaths. Instant story hooks and fuel for glory.

Edit:

I found my play report (https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?306491-Agon-Not-near-enough-buzz-out-there-(Play-report)) over at rpg.net.

Gotta say, the different dice in different hands is cool. I also came across a left-handed character sheet, which is doubly cool.

I'll have to read your play report to understand the game better. Somebody remind me tomorrow while I'm on a work break.

Quote from: Dumarest;978469Got links?

Are these D&D derivatives or original systems made for the setting?

Blood & Bronze (http://www.rpgnow.com/product/173051/Blood--Bronze-rules) is set in Mesopotamia. from my limited read through, it's OSR ish.

Pax Gladius (http://www.rpgnow.com/product/18188/Pax-Gladius?it=1) uses Deep 7's 1PG system (the base rules fit on one page). It's designed to emulate the old Italian Sword & Sandal flicks of the 60's

Heroes of Hellas (http://www.rpgnow.com/product/117629/Heroes-Of-Hellas) is a supplement for Barbarians of Lemuria set in Mythic Greece

Do you mean actual, historical bronze age (cultures based upon the palace economy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palace_economy) and so on) or a pastiche that's close enough for the swords and sandals genre?

Quote from: Pat;978579There was an interesting campaign premise in GURPS All-Stars -- Sparta has just fallen, and you're survivors. So now you have to make your way and find your purpose in a world where your training (and reputation) have made you the ultimate Bronze Age badasses.

Nitpick, but Sparta's reputation as a military society is from historical, Iron Age times.

Quote from: Kiero;978672Do you mean actual, historical bronze age (cultures based upon the palace economy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palace_economy) and so on) or a pastiche that's close enough for the swords and sandals genre?

Sure why not? I like the idea of having a hard (and unrealistically fast) assimilation of the use of iron too. So iron becomes the "mithril" of the game world. Few people know how to forge it. Then it becomes a campaign secret worthy of attaining.

Plus you can always have those gifts of the Gods bestowed you and your people. The Secret of Iron!

When I run my version - it'll be late-Bronze, early Iron with lots of stuff tossed in. Cultures, not races. Monsters are the cursed of the Gods or their minions. I'll have politics in different forms depending on the culture. I'll have Roman, Egyptian, Hittite, Mycenaean, Greek, Sumerian, Akkadian, Assyrian analog elements, with some sub-Saharan Nok-culture stuff being represented. Maybe proto-Empires, leagues and alliances barely holding on against rivals, where the Gods hold influence of a given culture or city-state as setting material.

Everything is on the table for me.

Runequest I guess (even though the artwork inspiration isn't technically bronze age, but iron age). OR: I have had some success with modifying Stormbringer 5th ed in the past, so I think I'd try that first. But Runequest might give some ideas on how to run different religions and cults.

Historically, there are many unknowns about bronze age Europe, so that could easily be used to an advantage in an RPG. The Middle-East is a bit better known, particularly Egypt and Mesopotamia (there are also some decent books on the Hittites, and China)

Quote from: Dumarest;978526Yeah, that is exactly what I like.

Again, this is my preference. Some the heroes may be the son of a god or a goddess, as Heroes of Olympus allows for this to happen with random rolls at character generation, but basically they are humans vying against other humans.

More often than not, they don't care unless it's a favored child in extreme circumstances. But fail to pay homage or make your hecatomb and you may get some punishment to teach you the error of your ways.

Yes. Heroes of Olympus has rules for this, too, if I remember right. And sometimes you can get a special item or talent due to your divine parent (if you rolled that).

They will be few and far between, and their magic will be generally time- and effort-consuming if it is powerful, and the heroes will probably need to go on a quest to get the knowledge or item needed to counteract them.

For me, the only access the heroes would have to magic would be acquiring some item, like Perseus's sword and shield in the Harryhausen Jason and the Argonauts film, or by consulting an oracle or finding a mad hermit or witch of Hecate and persuading him or her to help in some way (going on a quest, making a sacrifice, rescuing from harpies, whatever). I wouldn't allow PC wizards in my game as it would make magic no longer wonderful and frightening but instead rather ordinary and a common recourse to problem-solving. But I'm picturing a group of macho Greek heroes gallivanting about on quests and adventures in the Mediterranean and environs (which is pretty much what Heroes of Olympus was made for) and I don't see a place for D&D-style "magic is readily available for PCs" in that. But my players have always been good with accepting restrictions like "no PC wizards" or "no elves." All this talk is making me want to scrap my current game and play this instead.

Oh, and another cool thing about Heroes of Olympus is every PC will be unique in his talents and background due to the way characters are rolled up. There are no classes or types.

So we're pretty much in agreement over the course of our conversation about defining the genre (with the slight exception of whether PCs can use magic), the result of which, I think, is that we are really talking about Sword and Sorcery using Heroic Age Greece as a setting.

It seems a pretty fine hair to split between Swords and Sorcery (Hyborian Age) and Swords and Sandals (Jason and the Agonauts or 300) I think.  The main difference that I can tell is that Swords and Sandals uses a setting based on history and myth that uses real-earth geography, cultures, and legends, while swords and sorcery creates these things from whole fantasy-cloth. Sandals style is also firmly rooted in the ancient world where there is more flexibility with sword and sorcery (like including medieval or even sci-fi elements. Troy (the movie) is swords and sandals, Elric is sword and sorcery.  The Hyborian Age is a bit of both, but it leans toward sword and sorcery because of the wholesale creation.  Harryhousen's Sinbad's are closer to sword and sandal.  Thundar and Game of thrones are sword and sorcery.

Maybe none of that matters and its just semantics.  Point is, I am glad to see that we are pretty much in agreement about the roles of mortals, gods, monsters, and magic in such a setting.  That helps me get down to the nitty gritty of defining system and setting specifics.

It was back in the day, so I used AD&D. We used, fighters, thieves, assassins, rangers (w/o spells), and that's it I think.

Our spell casters were a cleric / magician mix, highly modified. They had training in basic astrology and alchemy, so on a daily basis they could make some potions (healing, strength, antidotes) and poisons. Weekly they could use augury (3/wk?) and divination (1/wk?). As far as outright spell casting, they were limited to 1-3 spells per day with a limited spell list, mostly abjurations and transformations.

They could fight as well as clerics.

Quote from: tenbones;978737Sure why not? I like the idea of having a hard (and unrealistically fast) assimilation of the use of iron too. So iron becomes the "mithril" of the game world. Few people know how to forge it. Then it becomes a campaign secret worthy of attaining.

Plus you can always have those gifts of the Gods bestowed you and your people. The Secret of Iron!

When I run my version - it'll be late-Bronze, early Iron with lots of stuff tossed in. Cultures, not races. Monsters are the cursed of the Gods or their minions. I'll have politics in different forms depending on the culture. I'll have Roman, Egyptian, Hittite, Mycenaean, Greek, Sumerian, Akkadian, Assyrian analog elements, with some sub-Saharan Nok-culture stuff being represented. Maybe proto-Empires, leagues and alliances barely holding on against rivals, where the Gods hold influence of a given culture or city-state as setting material.

Everything is on the table for me.

I am thinking about the late bronze age collapse around 1200-1150 BCE.  I don't care about being that historically specific but it is one of the great mysteries of history how all the eastern med and fertile crescent civilizations were wrecked at the same time.  Historians have put forth all kinds of theories: invaders (the Sea People), natural disasters,  economic collapse, ecological collapse, tidal waves of fire and slaughter - fact is we don't know.  There is a recent book on the subject: 1177 B.C: The year Civilization Collapsed.   (http://https://www.amazon.com/1177-B-C-Civilization-Collapsed-Turning/dp/0691168385)  It might make a good focal point.

Anyway, for me I think the PC homeland will be the Heroic palace culture of Greece, probably with classical Hoplite style equipment.  But I want lots of "barbarian" cultures: bloodthirsty Thracians, Scythian Horselords, Towering Celts from the dark forests of Europe, warlike Hittites with their chariots and the secret of iron, perfumed and blue bearded Babylonian merchants, Nubian kingdoms of gold and ziggurats, Cretan pirates, wandering magi from Persia, vengeful Hebrews who reject all gods but their own, necromantic priests and power mad rulers of Egypt.  I am going to comb through Herodotus for fantastic references (there's tons) of the Arimaspi, gold guarding Griffons of the Carpathians, and legends of ancient forgotten peoples and civilizations.  I'll probably ignore the western Med except as a land of howling wilderness with a few Greek and Phonetician colonies. Rome may be no more than a pair of bad-ass brothers being raised by wolves... and so on.

Quote from: Madprofessor;978770There is a recent book on the subject: 1177 B.C: The year Civilization Collapsed.   (http://https://www.amazon.com/1177-B-C-Civilization-Collapsed-Turning/dp/0691168385)  It might make a good focal point.

I was coming back to mention that very book, so instead I'll leave the link to the video where I discovered it. The author gives a pretty good overview of the book's scope:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRcu-ysocX4

Quote from: Madprofessor;978760So we're pretty much in agreement over the course of our conversation about defining the genre (with the slight exception of whether PCs can use magic), the result of which, I think, is that we are really talking about Sword and Sorcery using Heroic Age Greece as a setting.

It seems a pretty fine hair to split between Swords and Sorcery (Hyborian Age) and Swords and Sandals (Jason and the Agonauts or 300) I think.  The main difference that I can tell is that Swords and Sandals uses a setting based on history and myth that uses real-earth geography, cultures, and legends, while swords and sorcery creates these things from whole fantasy-cloth. Sandals style is also firmly rooted in the ancient world where there is more flexibility with sword and sorcery (like including medieval or even sci-fi elements. Troy (the movie) is swords and sandals, Elric is sword and sorcery.  The Hyborian Age is a bit of both, but it leans toward sword and sorcery because of the wholesale creation.  Harryhousen's Sinbad's are closer to sword and sandal.  Thundar and Game of thrones are sword and sorcery.

Maybe none of that matters and its just semantics.  Point is, I am glad to see that we are pretty much in agreement about the roles of mortals, gods, monsters, and magic in such a setting.  That helps me get down to the nitty gritty of defining system and setting specifics.

Yeah, I'd play in your game. :) No wizard PCs is just my personal preference. I'm not really much of a fan of wizards in any game, really.

Quote from: Madprofessor;978770There is a recent book on the subject: 1177 B.C: The year Civilization Collapsed. (https://www.amazon.com/1177-B-C-Civilization-Collapsed-Turning/dp/0691168385)  It might make a good focal point.

Your link is broken. (Fixed in the quote.)

Looks like an interesting book.

Quote from: RunningLaser;978422Our very own Poobah of the D.O.N.G tenbones had a post about bronze age gaming in another thread.  What he wrote was pretty cool and got me thinking of gaming in the bronze age, something that I've never done.  What would you use to run a bronze age game?

RuneQuest/BRP/Mythras/Any d100 game.

Quote from: Madprofessor;978770I am thinking about the late bronze age collapse around 1200-1150 BCE.  I don't care about being that historically specific but it is one of the great mysteries of history how all the eastern med and fertile crescent civilizations were wrecked at the same time.  Historians have put forth all kinds of theories: invaders (the Sea People), natural disasters,  economic collapse, ecological collapse, tidal waves of fire and slaughter - fact is we don't know.  There is a recent book on the subject: 1177 B.C: The year Civilization Collapsed.   (http://https://www.amazon.com/1177-B-C-Civilization-Collapsed-Turning/dp/0691168385)  It might make a good focal point.

Anyway, for me I think the PC homeland will be the Heroic palace culture of Greece, probably with classical Hoplite style equipment.  But I want lots of "barbarian" cultures: bloodthirsty Thracians, Scythian Horselords, Towering Celts from the dark forests of Europe, warlike Hittites with their chariots and the secret of iron, perfumed and blue bearded Babylonian merchants, Nubian kingdoms of gold and ziggurats, Cretan pirates, wandering magi from Persia, vengeful Hebrews who reject all gods but their own, necromantic priests and power mad rulers of Egypt.  I am going to comb through Herodotus for fantastic references (there's tons) of the Arimaspi, gold guarding Griffons of the Carpathians, and legends of ancient forgotten peoples and civilizations.  I'll probably ignore the western Med except as a land of howling wilderness with a few Greek and Phonetician colonies. Rome may be no more than a pair of bad-ass brothers being raised by wolves... and so on.

YESSSS!!!! We can use all of this too. The migrations of the Sea Peoples happened gradually over that time-frame. Imagine in an RPG if it happened suddenly? This could happen mid-campaign and lead our intrepid heroes, the chosen of the Gods to perhaps find out where these people and their strange Gods come from? Perhaps these Gods are the ones that sent their believers to land on the PC's shores. Are the friend or foe? Both? Sounds like an epic adventure/campaign unto itself. Sounds like a perfect springboard for a new hexcrawl to foreign lands!

No limits!

We all know that the collapse of Late Bronze Age civilazation was brought about by the war between the Atlanteans and the Lemurians who were rival aliens from space, right?

Just kidding. The Late Bronze Age is a favourite period of mine for wargaming. Lots of fascinating questions in the history.

Quote from: DavetheLost;978835We all know that the collapse of Late Bronze Age civilazation was brought about by the war between the Atlanteans and the Lemurians who were rival aliens from space, right?

Of course you mean the Greys from the Zeta Reticuli star system.

Quote from: DavetheLost;978835Just kidding.

Too late to laugh it off. You revealed forbidden knowledge. Expect black helicopters.

Sign me up for a blood-thirsty Thracian;).

Quote from: RunningLaser;978422Our very own Poobah of the D.O.N.G tenbones had a post about bronze age gaming in another thread.  What he wrote was pretty cool and got me thinking of gaming in the bronze age, something that I've never done.  What would you use to run a bronze age game?

Either Mythras, (http://thedesignmechanism.com/) or a mix of Zenobia and 43 AD RPGs, (http://www.paulelliottbooks.com/) depending on the crunch level I'm going for:).

Quote from: Dumarest;978800Yeah, I'd play in your game. :) No wizard PCs is just my personal preference. I'm not really much of a fan of wizards in any game, really.

You're not alone in that preference:D!

Quote from: tenbones;978823YESSSS!!!! We can use all of this too. The migrations of the Sea Peoples happened gradually over that time-frame. Imagine in an RPG if it happened suddenly? This could happen mid-campaign and lead our intrepid heroes, the chosen of the Gods to perhaps find out where these people and their strange Gods come from? Perhaps these Gods are the ones that sent their believers to land on the PC's shores. Are the friend or foe? Both? Sounds like an epic adventure/campaign unto itself. Sounds like a perfect springboard for a new hexcrawl to foreign lands!

No limits!

Right!!! So just brainstorming, but the tragedies of mortals should reflect the petty squabbles of the gods (or visa versa), so the Sea People are the children of Poseidon. And they are expressing his tempest-like rage and overturning Zeus' unsteady world order. Perhaps Poseidon is pissed over the spurned love of Hera, Aphrodite, or Athena - or the seduction of his mortal daughter by Zeus (Zeus was always pulling that crap), er something petty like that.  Poseidon pulls out all the stops and unleashes the "Sea People" - whoever they are - in his vengeance.  There are lots of options for what the sea people can be, especially since history has no clue, except that they coincided with the collapse of civilization. They could be Pirates? (Nah, not epic enough) Some flooded civilization of the Black Sea?  The people of Atlantis looking for a new home? All of the sea god's worshipers prodded into a frenzy by his loyal priests? Deep ones?!?!. IDK, but I think its kinda the right epic sort of track.

I'm feeling inspired enough that I may go forward with this, and now that we've ironed out some setting questions, I can move to system:


The consensus here is for Mythras, or RQ in some form.  And I have to agree that it is the best and most natural choice - except I'm kind of burned out on it at the moment, and want to look at some lighter options.
Which leaves the following that have been mentioned so far:

- Heroes of Olympus - looks like an overlooked 1981 gem.  Problem is I know nothing about it as a system, and I can't find a copy.  It's on my collectors radar though.
- Mazes and Minotaurs -  Spinach says I need this game, and it does sound cool as a D&D alternative. I know its free as a PDF, but I'll probably buy a copy.  I'm not really looking for a class/level game, but you never know.
- Mercator - Wanderer would be better if it existed.  I like Traveler a lot.  It sounds like a lot of work to convert, but I always converting stuff anyway.  Maybe.
- Blood and Bronze - Too simple for me, but there is lots of good setting stuff to steal.
- Zenobia and 43 AD - Again, too simple.  And its the wrong period, but man there is a lot juicy stuff in there to steal!
- There is always GURPS Greece - probably not, but maybe modified TFT? Does anybody know if GURPS Greece is any good?
- Heroes of Hellas - This is probably it for me, though I'll need to modify it a lot as BoL is awfully thick grained.  Thankfully its easy to mod.
- Atlantis, the 2nd Age - I have the old OMNI edition and like it. I don't know much about the new edition. It looks crunchy, and I hear great things about Khepera.  Not enough info here to make a call.
- The old Rolemaster/Hero Myth supplement - Nah! I have a soft spot for Rolemaster, but that doesn't mean I'll ever run it again.

Did I miss any?

Someone up above mentioned Agon.

Quote from: Madprofessor;978873- Atlantis, the 2nd Age - I have the old OMNI edition and like it. I don't know much about the new edition. It looks crunchy, and I hear great things about Khepera.  Not enough info here to make a call.

It's a longish read, but Skywalker started a thread (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?28094-Atlantis-the-Second-Age-Discussion-and-PC-Creation) on this forum discussing the new edition, with some character creation walk-throughs, other character examples, some discussion of mechanics, and a combat example.

Quote from: Madprofessor;978770There is a recent book on the subject: 1177 B.C: The year Civilization Collapsed. It might make a good focal point.

The author has a presentation of the topic on Youtube. I watched it a couple days ago and it was interesting, though I'm curious what other historians might have to say about his ideas.

Quote from: Madprofessor;978873- Heroes of Olympus - looks like an overlooked 1981 gem. Problem is I know nothing about it as a system, and I can't find a copy. It's on my collectors radar though

I think it's pretty darn good, especially if you are looking for Jason and the Argonauts/Clash of the Titans-type adventure. No idea how hard it is to find a copy. I saw it on eBay once a while back. I've never seen any pirated PDFs of it.

Quote from: Madprofessor;978873Did I miss any?

Someone up above mentioned Agon.

Quote from: Madprofessor;978873- There is always GURPS Greece - probably not, but maybe modified TFT? Does anybody know if GURPS Greece is any good?

I'd like to see GURPS Greece. I only ever see it for sale at a price I won't pay. If it's even only averagely good for GURPS, it's probably still pretty good. The Fantasy Trip could easily be used for swords 'n' sandals action but wouldn't have much background material you could use so you'd have to research it or adapt from another source.

For Bronze Age definitely GURPS, there's so much potential and flexibility that I wouldn't ever considering using anything else.

I've wanted to try running AGON, but that's more The Odyssey/Clash of the Titans-fare.

Quote from: Simlasa;978882The author has a presentation of the topic on Youtube. I watched it a couple days ago and it was interesting, though I'm curious what other historians might have to say about his ideas.

He has a few lectures on it.  His main thesis is that, whatever the trigger that brought civilization low (probably several things coming together at once) it was the interconnection and interdependence that caused widespread collapse.  It makes it kind of hip and relevant because of the obvious parallels.  It's also probably as good as any theory I've read.

Anyway,

If this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4EsR8dGJiI) isn't like an advert for an RPG, I don't know what is.  Pretty high energy for Princeton UP.

Quote from: Dumarest;978885I'd like to see GURPS Greece. I only ever see it for sale at a price I won't pay. If it's even only averagely good for GURPS, it's probably still pretty good. The Fantasy Trip could easily be used for swords 'n' sandals action but wouldn't have much background material you could use so you'd have to research it or adapt from another source.

Greece is middle of the road, for GURPS. So fairly solid. (Designer's notes here. (http://www.sjgames.com/pyramid/sample.html?id=1401)) Better than the Celts book, which draws too much from the (fictional) Celtic revival. Though the essential book for an ancient campaign is probably Low-Tech, which has an amazing discussion of technology in ancient times (both the 3e and 4e versions are very good).

Earthdawn takes place around the end of the Bronze age, and the high-magic setting is mostly bronze-to-early-iron-age with some crazy anachronisms (steel is magic, airships, flying castles, etc). I have run a few games that have the feel of the thread. Very high magic, even non-spellcasters manipulate mana to use their Talents.

I also recommend the very well researched "Legendary Quest" game (free). Not for the rules, but for the very well researched myth-based bestiaries, especially the Mediterranean book.
http://legendaryquest.netfirms.com/Download.htm

Quote from: Pat;978550Read a little further in the thread.

(It doesn't exist.)

I am stunned. I ran Traveller Fantasy homebrews 30 years ago and I assumed somebody would have published one by now.

It's brain dead easy to make Classic Traveller into a fantasy game.

Quote from: Madprofessor;978873- Mazes and Minotaurs -  Spinach says I need this game, and it does sound cool as a D&D alternative. I know its free as a PDF, but I'll probably buy a copy.  I'm not really looking for a class/level game, but you never know.

It's not for sale. It's a non-profit project. Confused me too.

Years ago, I used an online POD service and had the PDFs spiral bound.

BTW, all this talk of Bronze Age is forgetting Ancient Egypt!

I have run Palladium's Valley of the Pharaohs several times and that was fun. I've used D&D's Hollow World and Ravenlofts' faux Egypt too.

And yes, M&M has a free supplement for faux Egypt.
http://www.rpgnow.com/product/211773/Atlas-of-Mythika-The-Desert-Kingdom

Quote from: Madprofessor;978873- Heroes of Hellas - This is probably it for me, though I'll need to modify it a lot as BoL is awfully thick grained.  Thankfully its easy to mod.

If you wanted to use it for something more OSR, Simon did write The BoL Hack (a Black Hack based version of BoL) that keeps the Career and magic systems, but converted for use with OSR style games.

Quote from: urbwar;978980If you wanted to use it for something more OSR, Simon did write The BoL Hack (a Black Hack based version of BoL) that keeps the Career and magic systems, but converted for use with OSR style games.

Worth pointing out that Heroes of Hellas is a supplement to BoL, written for the Legendary Edition, which you would need to run it. It gives a great game of Harryhausen/300 style Greek Heroes. Provided you are up with BoL's rules light nature and use of Hero Points, it would work great for this sort of game. The author has mentioned putting out a new edition for the current (superior IMHO) Mythic Edition of BoL - but no idea how advanced that is.

If you are solidly OSR, then Mazes and Monsters is the best choice. If you want something more crunchy, then a BPR/D100 system is probably what you need.

Here's a lovely set up for such a game - http://dynastyzero.blogspot.co.uk/2015/12/would-you-like-little-salt-with-that.html

By the way, Heroes of Hellas has a good naval combat mini-system, that was adapted for Barbarians of Lemuria Mythic Edition.

Quote from: Raleel;978497You can follow status on the TDM boards. And my apologies for getting the name wrong :)

No need to apologize, I was merely demonstrating my nerdmastery of fantasy miniature movie monsters.

Quote from: Spinachcat;978971I am stunned. I ran Traveller Fantasy homebrews 30 years ago and I assumed somebody would have published one by now.

It's brain dead easy to make Classic Traveller into a fantasy game.

Yes! Someone needs to get off their ass and publish Wanderer!

QuoteIt's not for sale. It's a non-profit project. Confused me too.

Years ago, I used an online POD service and had the PDFs spiral bound.

Yes, I have been devouring M&Ms all night (to the point where I need to go lecture without sleep) thanks to your threats.

I think I never looked at this game because it was free! How stupid is that? Like it had no value.  I probably won't use it.  But it has awesomesause all over it!

QuoteBTW, all this talk of Bronze Age is forgetting Ancient Egypt!

I have run Palladium's Valley of the Pharaohs several times and that was fun. I've used D&D's Hollow World and Ravenlofts' faux Egypt too.

And yes, M&M has a free supplement for faux Egypt.
http://www.rpgnow.com/product/211773/Atlas-of-Mythika-The-Desert-Kingdom

Yes.  I need to look at Egypt and the rest of the bronze age.  Didn't the Xoth guy do a d20 book on Mesopotamia that was supposed to be pretty cool?

Quote from: Spinachcat;978971BTW, all this talk of Bronze Age is forgetting Ancient Egypt!

Nah, I mentioned the Aegyptus supplement for Heroes of Olympus a couple of times. It was published in Nexus magazine.

Quote from: That Guy;978881It's a longish read, but Skywalker started a thread (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?28094-Atlantis-the-Second-Age-Discussion-and-PC-Creation) on this forum discussing the new edition, with some character creation walk-throughs, other character examples, some discussion of mechanics, and a combat example.

If that thread doesn't convince a person how good Atlantis is, nothing will.

As for crunch. It's light-medium crunch. It's the Omega System (house version of the classic Talislanta core mechanics) which is really easy to use. The "crunch" comes from chargen and Magic. Which really just boils down to skill-based checks for effect.

Quote from: Spinachcat;978971I am stunned. I ran Traveller Fantasy homebrews 30 years ago and I assumed somebody would have published one by now.

It's brain dead easy to make Classic Traveller into a fantasy game.

There have been a few attempts. Let's see:

Adventurer (http://docgrognard.blogspot.com/2012/02/interlude-adventurer-new-introduction.html) (a lot more than the last time I looked)
Fantasy Traveller (https://alegisdownport.wordpress.com/tag/fantasy-traveller/)

Quote from: Pat;979070There have been a few attempts. Let's see:

Adventurer (http://docgrognard.blogspot.com/2012/02/interlude-adventurer-new-introduction.html) (a lot more than the last time I looked)
Fantasy Traveller (https://alegisdownport.wordpress.com/tag/fantasy-traveller/)

My attempt (mentioned upstream):

http://platonicsolid.blogspot.com/search/label/Adventurer

Quote from: Pat;979070There have been a few attempts. Let's see:

Adventurer (http://docgrognard.blogspot.com/2012/02/interlude-adventurer-new-introduction.html) (a lot more than the last time I looked)
Fantasy Traveller (https://alegisdownport.wordpress.com/tag/fantasy-traveller/)

Thanks for those links. Even if I don't use "Fantasy Traveller," another Traveller blog is always of interest to me.

Also, there's Flynn's Guide to Magic (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/78450/Flynns-Guide-to-Magic-in-Traveller) which I've always been tempted to cross-polinate with Zenobia:).

Madprofessor - if I get you right, you're looking for something heavier than Zenobia, less coarse than BoL and lighter than d100 systems? I'll think of a better suggestion, but I'm not sure if I'd be able to come up with anything better than "adapt StarORE for the Antiquity", which in itself isn't terribly useful;).

Quote from: AsenRG;979119Also, there's Flynn's Guide to Magic (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/78450/Flynns-Guide-to-Magic-in-Traveller) which I've always been tempted to cross-polinate with Zenobia;).

On the commercial side, there's also Netherell (http://www.rpgnow.com/product/93765/Netherell) (a fantasy world in Terra-Sol's Twilight Sector), though I don't know much about it.

Quote from: Pat;979120On the commercial side, there's also Netherell (http://www.rpgnow.com/product/93765/Netherell) (a fantasy world in Terra-Sol's Twilight Sector), though I don't know much about it.

I haven't read it either, though I admit that's got something to do with price, because I like the approach "some planets contain magic":).

Quote from: Eisenmann;979092My attempt (mentioned upstream):

http://platonicsolid.blogspot.com/search/label/Adventurer

Isn't that kinda different from the one on DocGrognard's blog?
Or, if it isn't, why the two different sites;)?

Quote from: AsenRG;979122Isn't that kinda different from the one on DocGrognard's blog?
Or, if it isn't, why the two different sites;)?

They're two independent projects that just so happened to land on the name 'Adventurer'. I chose the name since it seems like a natural play on 'Wanderer' if looking at a fantasy version of Traveller as White Box D&D.

Quote from: AsenRG;979119Also, there's Flynn's Guide to Magic (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/78450/Flynns-Guide-to-Magic-in-Traveller) which I've always been tempted to cross-polinate with Zenobia:).

Oooh, that looks cool.  I like Zenobia a great deal as product (I have AD 43 on order), but I like the setting info and fluff a lot better than the system

QuoteMadprofessor - if I get you right, you're looking for something heavier than Zenobia, less coarse than BoL and lighter than d100 systems? I'll think of a better suggestion, but I'm not sure if I'd be able to come up with anything better than "adapt StarORE for the Antiquity", which in itself isn't terribly useful;).

I have no idea what StarORE is.  Anyway, good of you to notice that I am impossibly picky about system.  That's true. It's why I have hundreds of pages of houserules and habitually re-write large chunks of any system I use when I run a campaign.  It's just the way I GM.  

BRP is not heavy IMO. Mythras is a little crunchy in combat and is otherwise 'involved' but easy to play. It is more that I have played a lot of these games recently and want a change of pace.  I''ll say again, they are perfect games for what I am trying to do, I'm just feeling like something different - and that's the best excuse I have for looking at other options.

I am leaning towards a heavily modded BoL/Heroes of Hellas.  BoL is incredibly robust and easy to hack.  I like that. It is a favorite of mine and of my group.  A second runner up is GURPS or maybe TFT.  I've only run a little bit of GURPS in my day, and I am actually a little intimidated by it.  I couldn't comfortably hack it without more experience with it. Historical/mythic bronze age limits GURPS' scope to a pretty manageable level, so it might be a time to take the plunge.  I am also enjoying M&M, but I don't think that will be the game.  Still need to check out Agon as I know nothing about it yet. Then there is Atlantis...

Runequest or original D&D.

A lot of effort has gone into Mazes & Minotaurs.
I suppose the lack of excitement over it is due to it being free, and therefore assumed to be "valueless"?
=

Games named [Letter] & [Letter] ceased to attract any interest from me around 1980 or so. It's a tired, overused conceit. Adding on a further conceit throughout the rules that M&M was the first RPG EVAH! sounds like it would exactly as fun as those Saturday Night Live sketches that went on for 5-10 long minutes after the joke stopped being funny. On top of all that its a level based system which seems like a rather poor fit for emulating demigods and heroes like Heracles, Perseus, Jason, Theseus, Odysseus, Achilles, etc. who start out their careers stronger, smarter, tougher, or better than ordinary men.

Quote from: Greentongue;979283A lot of effort has gone into Mazes & Minotaurs.
I suppose the lack of excitement over it is due to it being free, and therefore assumed to be "valueless".
=

Actually, no, in my case the lack of excitement is due to it treating the Antiquity the same way D&D treats Medieval Europe;).

Quote from: Bren;979302Games named [Letter] & [Letter] ceased to attract any interest from me around 1980 or so. It's a tired, overused conceit. Adding on a further conceit throughout the rules that M&M was the first RPG EVAH! sounds like it would exactly as fun as those Saturday Night Live sketches that went on for 5-10 long minutes after the joke stopped being funny. On top of all that its a level based system which seems like a rather poor fit for emulating demigods and heroes like Heracles, Perseus, Jason, Theseus, Odysseus, Achilles, etc. who start out their careers stronger, smarter, tougher, or better than ordinary men.

Yes, we need a moratorium on alliterative ampersand games starting right after I publish my magnum opus ALLITERATION & AMPERSANDS (TM).

ALLITERATION & AMPERSANDS (TM): a D&D-derived "OSR" game wherein players roll up their very own frustrated game designers and compete to create the best-selling D&D-derived fantasy game of all time. Also there are hobbits and orcs. The rules, written with true Gygaxian ambiguity, are destined to be debated endlessly and interpreted differently by each GM! And to prove it is simultaneously traditional and innovative, ALLITERATION & AMPERSANDS (TM) uses 30-sided dice wherever needless.

Quote from: AsenRG;979304Actually, no, in my case the lack of excitement is due to it treating the Antiquity the same way D&D treats Medieval Europe;).

That pretty much nails it.

QuoteOriginally Posted by Dumarest
Yes, we need a moratorium on alliterative ampersand games starting right after I publish my magnum opus ALLITERATION & AMPERSANDS (TM).

ALLITERATION & AMPERSANDS (TM): a D&D-derived "OSR" game wherein players roll up their very own frustrated game designers and compete to create the best-selling D&D-derived fantasy game of all time. Also there are hobbits and orcs. The rules, written with true Gygaxian ambiguity, are destined to be debated endlessly and interpreted differently by each GM! And to prove it is simultaneously traditional and innovative, ALLITERATION & AMPERSANDS (TM) uses 30-sided dice wherever needless.

lol! That's some funny shit right there!

Quote from: Dumarest;979317Yes, we need a moratorium on alliterative ampersand games starting right after I publish my magnum opus ALLITERATION & AMPERSANDS (TM).

Shortly after the ban is instituted, I'll publish CONSONANCE & CONJUNCTIONS, an artsy story-game that uses the convention ironically.

Quote from: tenbones;979067If that thread doesn't convince a person how good Atlantis is, nothing will.

Well, it convinced me to find a copy, but it wasn't my cup of tea. My copy's for sale if someone would like to make an offer.

Quote from: Arminius;979341Well, it convinced me to find a copy, but it wasn't my cup of tea. My copy's for sale if someone would like to make an offer.

Sorry, I couldn't get past the description of the setting and races therein. Not my thing either,  although I'll withhold judgment on the rules as I haven't played it. Now, to be sure, I mean as a referee I'm not interested in running it; I would certainly try a session as a player to see how it is. I Just can't see myself wanting to invest time running the setting.

In fairness, I didn't play it either, but I gave it a pretty careful read. By memory, some issues I had with it were use of Feat-like abilities (some of them quite "meta"), and lack of any mapping between race/culture/profession. In other words, where some games embed & express setting structure in character creation by having skills & professions flow from cultural/ethnic background (e.g. MRQ II), Atlantis seemed much more mix-and-match. On top of that, character generation seems rather time-intensive, and the further you go along that axis, the less the game as a whole can tolerate the death of PCs, even at low levels.

Quote from: AsenRG;979304Actually, no, in my case the lack of excitement is due to it treating the Antiquity the same way D&D treats Medieval Europe;).

Yup. And it was the idea all along :D

Quote from: Arminius;979387In fairness, I didn't play it either, but I gave it a pretty careful read. By memory, some issues I had with it were use of Feat-like abilities (some of them quite "meta"), and lack of any mapping between race/culture/profession. In other words, where some games embed & express setting structure in character creation by having skills & professions flow from cultural/ethnic background (e.g. MRQ II), Atlantis seemed much more mix-and-match. On top of that, character generation seems rather time-intensive, and the further you go along that axis, the less the game as a whole can tolerate the death of PCs, even at low levels.

(I don't have my copy in front of me - so I'm going from memory here) - The "Feats" I wanna say I remember having pre-reqs for some of them. In terms of being meta, I'm sure you're probably right, but I don't recall anything jumping out at me that screamed "horseshit" or couldn't be waived.

The Mix-and-Match character building was by design. I believe they wanted to leave it up the GM in terms of how those combinations are expressed via the respective cultures. This is not too different than say "Backgrounds" in D&D. It reminded me a bit of WFRP, to be honest. And it didn't feel limiting. Chargen is time intensive only because the sheer number of choices. Once you do it a few times, it goes fairly quickly, once you figure out what background combinations work for what you're going for.

Dumarest, if you want to see a *really* close approximation of the system for free. Check out Talislanta 5e. You can get it for free at http://talislanta.com/ (no there's nothing illegal about it - Steve Sechi has gifted all previous content for Talislanta to the public.) Tal 5e is extremely close to Atlantis in terms of system mechanics. Pretty easy stuff.

Quote from: tenbones;979743Dumarest, if you want to see a *really* close approximation of the system for free. Check out Talislanta 5e. You can get it for free at http://talislanta.com/ (no there's nothing illegal about it - Steve Sechi has gifted all previous content for Talislanta to the public.) Tal 5e is extremely close to Atlantis in terms of system mechanics. Pretty easy stuff.

Cool, thank you, I will take a look at that.

To be clear--the thing I don't like about mix-and-match is that it's not limiting.

As for Tal 5e, I'm pretty sure it doesn't have the feat-things found in Atlantis; otherwise, I agree it's pretty similar mechanically. I'm not sure about the chargen--even though 4e/5e became more skill-based than 3e and earlier, I thought it still used archetypes/templates, which effectively give you the structural mapping of culture/profession that I would see as a plus.

(BTW, I don't know about D&D 3e and up but in AD&D 1e, there are class bonuses and limitations that do structure the implied setting. Apparently it was hated on and ignored by people who wanted absolute freedom to pimp out their characters.)

Quote from: Minotaurians;979731Yup. And it was the idea all along :D

Whatever floats your boat, but that's not an idea I'd be excited about;).

Quote from: Arminius;979770To be clear--the thing I don't like about mix-and-match is that it's not limiting.

Sure. This is where the GM makes the call on cultural options. This is no different than 2e D&D when some kits were clearly not culturally applicable to a specific race unless the GM is willing to let the snowflake-factor into their campaign.

Quote from: Arminius;979770As for Tal 5e, I'm pretty sure it doesn't have the feat-things found in Atlantis; otherwise, I agree it's pretty similar mechanically. I'm not sure about the chargen--even though 4e/5e became more skill-based than 3e and earlier, I thought it still used archetypes/templates, which effectively give you the structural mapping of culture/profession that I would see as a plus.

As I don't have my Atlantis book with me - 5e *does* have "Feats" they're called "Quirks" (never liked that name). 4e/5e chargen was templates that represented backgrounds at various periods of your character's life. It's pretty damn handy if you want to start your PC's off a little more/less experienced, plus it shows you directly where your character is at "that stage". I'm *pretty sure* (but not totally sure) that Atlantis had something similar. 5e in particular had some *big* editing issues. But you can leverage a lot of stuff in there into your 4e game pretty easy.

All that said - the system is marvelously easy to lift for a campaign concept that matches a Sword and Sandals concept here. Many of the Atlantean races I'd just leave the fuck out (I think some of them are unnecessary too).

Quote from: Arminius;979770(BTW, I don't know about D&D 3e and up but in AD&D 1e, there are class bonuses and limitations that do structure the implied setting. Apparently it was hated on and ignored by people who wanted absolute freedom to pimp out their characters.)

Yep. When 3e hit... they blew everything wide-open and it became, as is colloquially known among many in these parts, "The Freakshow".

Quote from: Madprofessor;979167Oooh, that looks cool.  I like Zenobia a great deal as product (I have AD 43 on order), but I like the setting info and fluff a lot better than the system

Well, they're all 2d6 systems, so the modifiers should be in comparable range:).

QuoteI have no idea what StarORE is.  Anyway, good of you to notice that I am impossibly picky about system.  That's true. It's why I have hundreds of pages of houserules and habitually re-write large chunks of any system I use when I run a campaign.  It's just the way I GM.  

StarORE (http://www.arcdream.com/pdf/starore.pdf) is free.

QuoteBRP is not heavy IMO. Mythras is a little crunchy in combat and is otherwise 'involved' but easy to play. It is more that I have played a lot of these games recently and want a change of pace.  I''ll say again, they are perfect games for what I am trying to do, I'm just feeling like something different - and that's the best excuse I have for looking at other options.

OK, so we amend what you're looking for to "lighter or as heavy as" a d100 system.
And I don't judge for being picky, it just makes it slightly harder to actually give an useful advice:D!

QuoteI am leaning towards a heavily modded BoL/Heroes of Hellas.  BoL is incredibly robust and easy to hack.  I like that. It is a favorite of mine and of my group.  A second runner up is GURPS or maybe TFT.  I've only run a little bit of GURPS in my day, and I am actually a little intimidated by it.  I couldn't comfortably hack it without more experience with it. Historical/mythic bronze age limits GURPS' scope to a pretty manageable level, so it might be a time to take the plunge.  I am also enjoying M&M, but I don't think that will be the game.  Still need to check out Agon as I know nothing about it yet. Then there is Atlantis...

Personally, from that list I'd go for either BoL or Atlantis, but that's just me;).

Quote from: tenbones;979809All that said - the system is marvelously easy to lift for a campaign concept that matches a Sword and Sandals concept here. Many of the Atlantean races I'd just leave the fuck out (I think some of them are unnecessary too).

So, I managed to borrow a copy of the Beta rules of Khepera's Atlantis the 2nd age. I know it's not quite fair to take an impression from a brief read through of Beta rules - but wow, there is a lot of setting fluff tied into the fairly involved chargen. It's good stuff, maybe even great stuff, but there seems to be a lot of setting implied in the system.  I'm thinking about pulling the trigger on the book because as a fan and GM of Swords and Sorcery, it seems like something I ought to own and try.  However, I am not really interested in the setting at the moment.  All of that creative depth kind of gets in the way.  I also find it easier to add rules to a simple game then it is to subtract them from a complex or high involved one.  So, I guess my question is how difficult do you think it would be to give the game an acid bath and separate setting and fluff from the rules in order to play an essentially historical sword and sandals game with mythological elements?

Quote from: tenbones;979809snowflake-factor

You said it, not me.;)

Quote5e *does* have "Feats" they're called "Quirks" (never  PC's off a little more/less experienced, plus it shows you directly where your character is at "that stage".

I may be thinking of 4e, then. The big blue book didn't have the feats/quirks--I think!--and chargen was still "pick an archetype then customize slightly", where archetype was a race-profession. Like if you're a Mogroth you're an Amber Trader and that's that, while other races would have multiple options, but each expressed in a manner particular to that race. For the curious, a summary from 1e-3e is available at http://www.hurloon.net/talislanta/archetypes.html

Good to see fans of Zenobia here. FYI those who don't know it is free on the interwebs legally. Google is your friend.

Sorry, Madprofessor, but Atlantis is among the few RPGs I'm interested in that I still haven't read:).

Quote from: Voros;979871Good to see fans of Zenobia here. FYI those who don't know it is free on the interwebs legally. Google is your friend.

Or just use this link (http://www.paulelliottbooks.com/free-rpgs.html) and save yourself two clicks;).
I'm a fan of Paul Elliott's work in general, Zenobia/43 AD,  Grunt and Traveller very much included!

Quote from: Madprofessor;979822So, I guess my question is how difficult do you think it would be to give the game an acid bath and separate setting and fluff from the rules in order to play an essentially historical sword and sandals game with mythological elements?

It's one of the reasons I recommend people take a look. I think it would be ridiculously easy. Atlantis *is* very Sword-and-Sandals already. You just need to decide what to leave out. Most of the races can easily be re-skinned, or dropped. The mechanics don't require any touching, really. You'll just have to do a sifting of what you don't like, and adjust cultural stuff to your taste. I don't think it would require a lot of work at all. The Atlantis map (it's gorgeous) is a fantasy version of Earth already.

Quote from: Arminius;979823You said it, not me.;)

heh we're all experienced GMs/Players here - let's call the spade a spade.

Quote from: Arminius;979823I may be thinking of 4e, then. The big blue book didn't have the feats/quirks--I think!--and chargen was still "pick an archetype then customize slightly", where archetype was a race-profession. Like if you're a Mogroth you're an Amber Trader and that's that, while other races would have multiple options, but each expressed in a manner particular to that race. For the curious, a summary from 1e-3e is available at http://www.hurloon.net/talislanta/archetypes.html

Yeah. 4e didn't really do them (but you could put them in there if you wanted). I always liked 3e, myself. quick, dirty, straight to the meat of the game. Pick a race, pick an archetype, adjust two points worth of stats. AND PLAY. That' a good summary too!

I think Heroes of Hellas is an extremely good variant of BoL - its probably my favourite of all of the BoL genre books. I understand a new edition is in the works.

Quote from: Madprofessor;978523I bought Blood and Bronze (http://http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/173051/Blood--Bronze-rules) a couple of moths ago.  It is focused on ancient Mesopotamia, the rules, I thought were both oversimplified and a little clunky for what they achieved, but some of the hooks and setting material stuff was quite good.  I've not played the game or even made a character so maybe I'm not giving it a fair shake - that's just my first impression.

I have to agree with you about Blood and Bronze.  I was excited about the game until I read the rules.  Did not click with me.

If I were to choose, I would choose Heroes of Hellas first and then Mazes & Minotaurs.

Quote from: Gruntfuttock;979006Worth pointing out that Heroes of Hellas is a supplement to BoL, written for the Legendary Edition, which you would need to run it. It gives a great game of Harryhausen/300 style Greek Heroes. Provided you are up with BoL's rules light nature and use of Hero Points, it would work great for this sort of game. The author has mentioned putting out a new edition for the current (superior IMHO) Mythic Edition of BoL - but no idea how advanced that is.

If you are solidly OSR, then Mazes and Monsters is the best choice. If you want something more crunchy, then a BPR/D100 system is probably what you need.

Here's a lovely set up for such a game - http://dynastyzero.blogspot.co.uk/2015/12/would-you-like-little-salt-with-that.html

By the way, Heroes of Hellas has a good naval combat mini-system, that was adapted for Barbarians of Lemuria Mythic Edition.

Thanks for the mention.  I'd forgotten I had written that.

Quote from: Narmer;979966I have to agree with you about Blood and Bronze.  I was excited about the game until I read the rules.  Did not click with me.

If I were to choose, I would choose Heroes of Hellas first and then Mazes & Minotaurs.

Both Zenobia and Blood and Bronze have wonderful content and absolutely minimal mechanics that support them.  Both games put their rules at the end of the book, almost as an afterthought to the setting.  

It is hard to figure out what is going on with these games. I mean, where is the game?

This is what I think: Zenobia is philosophically minimalist, beyond rules lite, as a narrative approach to Roleplaying.  Some narrative games like 2d20 Conan add rules to force narrative style play, where Zenobia removes rules to allow for narrative style play.  It replaces rules with ideas. It is very well done in its own way, but is a very hard game for a "traditional" GM like me to hang his hat on.  

Blood and Bronze seems less clever.  There is a little more game, but it is still about half of BoL, which is still pretty lite. I read it again last night.  There are some cool ideas, but I can't see myself playing it. Its also a little more ad hoc with d20 attribute saves and d6 dice pool skills. Weird.

As there are so few bronze age games out there, and practically no adventures to speak of, both of these will be useful at the table for their content, but I can't see using their systems for a long term campaign.

Quote from: tenbones;979932It's one of the reasons I recommend people take a look. I think it would be ridiculously easy. Atlantis *is* very Sword-and-Sandals already. You just need to decide what to leave out. Most of the races can easily be re-skinned, or dropped. The mechanics don't require any touching, really. You'll just have to do a sifting of what you don't like, and adjust cultural stuff to your taste. I don't think it would require a lot of work at all. The Atlantis map (it's gorgeous) is a fantasy version of Earth already.

Well, I don't know if I'll use it, but you certainly sold it!

Quote from: AsenRG;979929Sorry, Madprofessor, but Atlantis is among the few RPGs I'm interested in that I still haven't read:).

Or just use this link (http://www.paulelliottbooks.com/free-rpgs.html) and save yourself two clicks;).
I'm a fan of Paul Elliott's work in general, Zenobia/43 AD,  Grunt and Traveller very much included!

Didn' t realize he also did Grunt. Impressive.

I would use Scarlet Heroes.

I almost suggested Paleomythic (http://www.rpgnow.com/product/113038/Paleomythic), but it's more Stone Age & Sorcery, so way too early a time frame for Sword & Sandal type stuff

Quote from: Madprofessor;979977Both Zenobia and Blood and Bronze have wonderful content and absolutely minimal mechanics that support them.  Both games put their rules at the end of the book, almost as an afterthought to the setting.  

It is hard to figure out what is going on with these games.

Well, in the case of Zenobia, it's sitting there while being underapreciated:p.

QuoteI mean, where is the game?

Outside of the numbers;).

QuoteThis is what I think: Zenobia is philosophically minimalist, beyond rules lite, as a narrative approach to Roleplaying.

Weird. Zenobia always struck me as the incarnation of old-school gamist play. Simple rules, no fuss, make a ruling and go on, ruins galore that you can explore...anyone:D?

QuoteSome narrative games like 2d20 Conan add rules to force narrative style play, where Zenobia removes rules to allow for narrative style play.

I'd say it removes rules, period:).
This, then, might allow for any style of game, except gamist-relying-on-mechanical-interactions.

QuoteIt replaces rules with ideas.

I'd say it supplements ideas with a smattering of rules.
Like the rule for skills: if you have a skill, you can do that thing. Period. Roll Craft/Learning/Prowess for someone attempting an unfamiliar, but easy, or just disallow them.

QuoteIt is very well done in its own way, but is a very hard game for a "traditional" GM like me to hang his hat on.

Weird, I also consider myself a "traditional" GM, and see no obstacles. The only thing to do differently is to prepare, because the mechanics aren't going to take a lot of playtime in the session.

QuoteAs there are so few bronze age games out there, and practically no adventures to speak of, both of these will be useful at the table for their content, but I can't see using their systems for a long term campaign.

Well, at least we agree about the setting;).

Quote from: Voros;979998Didn' t realize he also did Grunt. Impressive.

He did, and I remember he discussed the rules on TBP while writing the game;).

Quote from: AsenRG;980043Well, in the case of Zenobia, it's sitting there while being underapreciated:p.

We're just a little off topic here but...

I just got my copy of 43 AD in the mail last night from LuLu and was able to give it a quick read.  I must say that it is some of the best writing that I have ever seen in an RPG product.  It is seriously well-done.  The detail of life in the legion, and the darkness of untamed Britain is fantastic, as is the GM advice on how to run a military campaign within the social dynamics of an RPG group.  It's 200 pages of system neutral, and actually useful, campaign advice. To the contrary of your statement, I deeply appreciate it as an RPG supplement... It also contains about 20 pages of weak-ass rules.  

This + Cthulhu Invictus = a brilliant historical sword and sandal horror rpg, IMO.  The setting material in 43 AD is so far above the generic crud published by Chaosium... they're not even in the same plane.

QuoteWeird. Zenobia always struck me as the incarnation of old-school gamist play. Simple rules, no fuss, make a ruling and go on, ruins galore that you can explore...anyone:D?

Well, I used the term "narrativist" a little lightly and flippantly.  But it is clear here that what I call "weak-ass rules" are not an afterthought or the result of armature game-design. This is conscious and intentional minimalism, a bit like the Prince Valiant RPG.  You are right that it can be played completely IC, but without mechanics it relies almost completely on narration and description, like the make-believe world-parameters are the rules. If D&D is like wargaming superimposed over play-pretend, then Zenobia strips away most of the wargame. In place of rules, it is just adult play-pretend regulated by social contract and highly detailed milieu. It's quite cool, but my groups would just be like "wow, this game has weak-ass rules."

Quote from: Madprofessor;980067We're just a little off topic here but...

I just got my copy of 43 AD in the mail last night from LuLu and was able to give it a quick read.  I must say that it is some of the best writing that I have ever seen in an RPG product.  It is seriously well-done.  The detail of life in the legion, and the darkness of untamed Britain is fantastic, as is the GM advice on how to run a military campaign within the social dynamics of an RPG group.  It's 200 pages of system neutral, and actually useful, campaign advice. To the contrary of your statement, I deeply appreciate it as an RPG supplement... It also contains about 20 pages of weak-ass rules.  

This + Cthulhu Invictus = a brilliant historical sword and sandal horror rpg, IMO.  The setting material in 43 AD is so far above the generic crud published by Chaosium... they're not even in the same plane.

Do you have the Mythras supplement Mythic Rome, or the BRP supplement Rome: Life and Death of the Republic? I was wondering if you could give a comparison.

I'm glad that the weak ass rules are only 20 pages :) easily ignorable :)

Quote from: Raleel;980073Do you have the Mythras supplement Mythic Rome

Nope, is it finished? I hadn't heard anything about this.  Is it available? Is it a reprint of BRP Rome?

Quoteor the BRP supplement Rome: Life and Death of the Republic? I was wondering if you could give a comparison.

I do have this, and it is excellent. Pete (along with Loz) is one of the best writers in the biz.  However it is very different from 43 AD.  Pete's Rome is a broad overview of the empire over a long period and is pretty inclusive alowing for all different types of characters in different regions, in different times, and using different play-styles.  The scope is quite large.

In contrast, 43 AD is extremely narrow.  It focuses on playing legionary characters in a military/horror campaign in untamed 1st century Britain. The camera lens is much tighter.

Both are way above RPG standards in terms historical awareness and depth.

QuoteI'm glad that the weak ass rules are only 20 pages :) easily ignorable :)

Yes, to my mind it (and Zenobia) is at its best as a systems neutral campaign supplement.  

And actually, the rules that are there, like for magic or social class for example, are conceptually strong and easily stolen and redefined in whatever rules you play... If you are that kind of GM that likes to kit-bash rules systems.

Quote from: urbwar;980032I almost suggested Paleomythic (http://www.rpgnow.com/product/113038/Paleomythic), but it's more Stone Age & Sorcery, so way too early a time frame for Sword & Sandal type stuff

Oooh, Shiny!  That looks wicked cool.  There needs to be more neolithic stone age type RPGs.  In fact, I can't think of any other than GURPS Ice Age. I'll have to get this.

QuoteNope, is it finished? I hadn't heard anything about this. Is it available? Is it a reprint of BRP Rome?

It's been out for a while... http://thedesignmechanism.com/products.php#!/Mythic-Earth/c/24197109/offset=0&sort=normal

It is a reworking of Pete's BRP supplement, but with new layout and art, and obviously converted to Mythras. If you have Rome: Life and Death, you don't strictly need Mythic Rome, but we'd never dream of talking you out of buying a copy...

Quote from: Madprofessor;980088Nope, is it finished? I hadn't heard anything about this.  Is it available? Is it a reprint of BRP Rome?



I do have this, and it is excellent. Pete (along with Loz) is one of the best writers in the biz.  However it is very different from 43 AD.  Pete's Rome is a broad overview of the empire over a long period and is pretty inclusive alowing for all different types of characters in different regions, in different times, and using different play-styles.  The scope is quite large.

In contrast, 43 AD is extremely narrow.  It focuses on playing legionary characters in a military/horror campaign in untamed 1st century Britain. The camera lens is much tighter.

Both are way above RPG standards in terms historical awareness and depth.



Yes, to my mind it (and Zenobia) is at its best as a systems neutral campaign supplement.  

And actually, the rules that are there, like for magic or social class for example, are conceptually strong and easily stolen and redefined in whatever rules you play... If you are that kind of GM that likes to kit-bash rules systems.

I am very much that. thanks for the insights! As Loz pointed out, Mythic Rome is out. it's quite good!

Quote from: Madprofessor;980067We're just a little off topic here but...

Agreed, but I'm still thinking what to recommend...you might end up picking a game before I'm over:)!
Did you consider StarORE, BTW? It's the most crunch I've seen in 13 pages, levels over Zenobia.

QuoteI just got my copy of 43 AD in the mail last night from LuLu and was able to give it a quick read.  I must say that it is some of the best writing that I have ever seen in an RPG product.  It is seriously well-done.  The detail of life in the legion, and the darkness of untamed Britain is fantastic, as is the GM advice on how to run a military campaign within the social dynamics of an RPG group.  It's 200 pages of system neutral, and actually useful, campaign advice. To the contrary of your statement, I deeply appreciate it as an RPG supplement... It also contains about 20 pages of weak-ass rules.  

OK, I've misunderstood you. My apologies for that, it happens!

QuoteThis + Cthulhu Invictus = a brilliant historical sword and sandal horror rpg, IMO.  The setting material in 43 AD is so far above the generic crud published by Chaosium... they're not even in the same plane.

Well, never read Chthulhu Invictus, but I can see what you mean;).

QuoteWell, I used the term "narrativist" a little lightly and flippantly.  But it is clear here that what I call "weak-ass rules" are not an afterthought or the result of armature game-design. This is conscious and intentional minimalism, a bit like the Prince Valiant RPG.

Yes.

QuoteYou are right that it can be played completely IC, but without mechanics it relies almost completely on narration and description, like the make-believe world-parameters are the rules.

Yes. I prefer the rules to reflect the make-believe world parameters, so they'd give outcomes that fit the logical range. and Zenobia simply tells me "adjudicate now, what happens in this situation"?
So the "rules" always fit my idea of believability.

QuoteIf D&D is like wargaming superimposed over play-pretend, then Zenobia strips away most of the wargame. In place of rules, it is just adult play-pretend regulated by social contract and highly detailed milieu.

You say "strips away". I say "returns to Frei Kriegspiel" (a term I learned due to Gronan and Chirine on this forum, I admit, but I did my research afterwards).
That's all the difference between our opinions.
And I admit that I lean more and more towards Frei Kriegspiel-style of play, though I use Traveller as my basis.

QuoteIt's quite cool, but my groups would just be like "wow, this game has weak-ass rules."

Then it's also not suitable for your group! But, as you said, the setting material alone makes it worth picking.
And if you end up using a 2d6 system, like BoL, you should totally consider adding the Manoeuvers/Special Effects from Zenobia/43 AD, because amusingly, that would make it way more realistic;).

Quote from: Loz;980116It's been out for a while... http://thedesignmechanism.com/products.php#!/Mythic-Earth/c/24197109/offset=0&sort=normal

It is a reworking of Pete's BRP supplement, but with new layout and art, and obviously converted to Mythras. If you have Rome: Life and Death, you don't strictly need Mythic Rome, but we'd never dream of talking you out of buying a copy...

Ah, I do have Pete's Rome: Life and Death for BRP and enjoy it very much. That is probably why I didn't notice the new version.

Someone on this thread mentioned a Mythras Mythic Greece supplement in the works.  Any truth to that?

Quote from: Madprofessor;980147Someone on this thread mentioned a Mythras Mythic Greece supplement in the works.  Any truth to that?

Yep. I'm working on it intermittently at the moment. ;)

Quote from: Pete Nash;980160Yep. I'm working on it intermittently at the moment. ;)

why are you posting! work! ;)

Quote from: Pete Nash;980160Yep. I'm working on it intermittently at the moment. ;)

Well, such a book would certainly make the question of this thread a bit rhetorical. :)

Not to put you on the spot, but is there a particular focus in period or concept?  For example, Homeric vs classical or mythological vs historical?  Certainly Mythic Britain had a particular vision.  Can you give us the elevator pitch?

Its Homeric mythological Mycenaean, with a historical basis towards lifestyle, weaponry, etc where archaeological evidence exists. Its more mythic than my Rome and Viking books.

Quote from: Madprofessor;980091Oooh, Shiny!  That looks wicked cool.  There needs to be more neolithic stone age type RPGs.  In fact, I can't think of any other than GURPS Ice Age. I'll have to get this.

I haven't read it in awhile, but from my limited memories, it seemed decent. I wanted to give it a whirl, but never found anyone interested in playing

Quote from: Pete Nash;980231Its Homeric mythological Mycenaean, with a historical basis towards lifestyle, weaponry, etc where archaeological evidence exists. Its more mythic than my Rome and Viking books.

Sounds similar to the old Mythic Greece supplement (https://www.amazon.com/Mythic-Greece-Heroes-Rolemaster-Fantasy/dp/1558060022).
[ATTACH=CONFIG]1218[/ATTACH]
Which I see as a good thing. Despite not using either Rolemaster/MERP or Fantasy HERO, I like their Mythic Greece supplement a lot. It had good maps of the Aegean, the Med, and the wider world (with a mythic POV) and its culture sections were useful and had the right level of detail for me as a GM. I used it to run a fun campaign using RQ/BRP back in the 1980s. If a D100 version had existed back then I would have purchased it and saved myself some conversion work.

Quote from: Bren;980320Sounds similar to the old Mythic Greece supplement (https://www.amazon.com/Mythic-Greece-Heroes-Rolemaster-Fantasy/dp/1558060022).
[ATTACH=CONFIG]1218[/ATTACH]
Which I see as a good thing. Despite not using either Rolemaster/MERP or Fantasy HERO, I like their Mythic Greece supplement a lot. It had good maps of the Aegean, the Med, and the wider world (with a mythic POV) and its culture sections were useful and had the right level of detail for me as a GM. I used it to run a fun campaign using RQ/BRP back in the 1980s. If a D100 version had existed back then I would have purchased it and saved myself some conversion work.

That's a book I'd like to acquire. Still waiting to find a copy at a price I'm willing to pay. What would you say the level of detail is like? I'm especially interested in the homes of people, ships, clothing, armor, and weapons, aside from of course maps of what's where and ideas for what to do there.

Quote from: Madprofessor;980091Oooh, Shiny!  That looks wicked cool.  There needs to be more neolithic stone age type RPGs.  In fact, I can't think of any other than GURPS Ice Age. I'll have to get this.

There are some out there:
Cavemaster
Wurm
Wolf-Packs and Winter Snow
Legend:  Land of Ice and Snow



Og

Quote from: Simon W;979937I think Heroes of Hellas is an extremely good variant of BoL - its probably my favourite of all of the BoL genre books. I understand a new edition is in the works.

Hi Simon, glad you stopped by.  I agree with you that HoH is excellent.  It stays vary close to the base game but adds a lot of material and great ideas. I know you added some of it into Mythic like naval rules and mass combat.  Probably my favorite genre adjustment though is the link between the gods and hero points.  I am not sure what he needs to add for Mythic, but I would certainly support it.

Another variant I really like is Peter's Barbarians of the Dark Ages, or Mirkwood (it needs a name).  It is conceptually fantastic with its focus on relationships, honor and glory within the meadhall in an age of darkness and ignorance.  It's great stuff.

More likely than not, I will use BoL and HoH as the basis for the Bronze Age game I am planning (unless I decide to wait for Pete's Mythic Greece), though if I do, I will modify it heavily...  not because it needs it, but because that's what I always do and because BoL is my favorite game to hack.  I turn to BoL often because it is a robust engine that is easily adapted and withstands my houserules and hacks.

Oh, and I just got my copy of the BoL Hack. I like the mechanical adjustments and the way classes and levels were implemented.  It breaks up the granularity a bit with the d20. I think it makes a nice mechanical upgrade as options for bol. My only hiccup is that I don't see the need for another game adapted to bog standard dungeon crawling D&D setting, we have enough of that, but I'm not judging, and I'll happily steal the rules. :D

Cheers,

and if you ever want to pick up the torch for BoL Everywhen... I'd be all over it.

Quote from: Dumarest;980352That's a book I'd like to acquire. Still waiting to find a copy at a price I'm willing to pay. What would you say the level of detail is like? I'm especially interested in the homes of people, ships, clothing, armor, and weapons, aside from of course maps of what's where and ideas for what to do there.

The level of detail is minimal. There is a price list measured in oxen and bronze bowls and stuff. Ships and chariots are means of transportation as they were in the period or at least in the descriptions in the Iliad, Odyssey, and Argonautica. Ships aren't intended for sea battles. There isn't the sort of detail to provide for a wooden ships and bronze men campaign, but from my reading a sea battles campaign wouldn't really be accurate for the period (Egyptian vs Sea Peoples battle aside).

As far as clothing, there are a number of black and white illustrations that depict clothing and armor and such, there's a map of a Mycenaean palace to use as a model, but if you want really detailed, completely accurate (as far as we know based on current archaeological discoveries) your going to need to do original research. I don't recall that there is any detailed description of what a peasant's hovel looks like in the period but I'd imagine most GMs could wing something that was close enough to satisfy (or at least not annoy) most players.

The book is trying to cover both Greek myths and historical stuff from the time period around the Mycenaean era so too much detail would only create contradictions when source material like the Illiad and the Odyssey aren't an accurate depiction of bronze age culture, customs, arms, or armor. That said, there is enough cultural information to portray bronze age Aegean culture as different from the present, the typical RPG Medieval pastiche, or most other RPG settings.

Other than what I mentioned, I can't recall exactly how many depictions or detailed descriptions there were of homes of people, ships, clothing, armor, and weapons. But I already had seen that from history books, museum tours, and such. I had two Mycenaen citadel plans from my Griffon Mountain supplement for Runequest 2. (One of the citadels is a ringer for Mycenae.) And with the internet it's pretty easy to hunt up illustrations like a picture of the Dendra Panoply or a Mycenean boars tusk helmet.

I found the book had exactly what I needed to run a mythic Greece campaign.

Quote from: Madprofessor;980091Oooh, Shiny!  That looks wicked cool.  There needs to be more neolithic stone age type RPGs.  In fact, I can't think of any other than GURPS Ice Age. I'll have to get this.

The old Griffon Mountain supplement for Runequest 2 had Neolithic hunter gatherers as the predominant culture in Balazar. They were adjacent to three Mycenaean-like citadels so there was a mix of bronze age and stone age. It wouldn't have been difficult to strip out the bronze age civilization and just run hunter gathers though.

Quote from: Bren;980320Sounds similar to the old Mythic Greece supplement (https://www.amazon.com/Mythic-Greece-Heroes-Rolemaster-Fantasy/dp/1558060022).
[ATTACH=CONFIG]1218[/ATTACH]
Which I see as a good thing. Despite not using either Rolemaster/MERP or Fantasy HERO, I like their Mythic Greece supplement a lot. It had good maps of the Aegean, the Med, and the wider world (with a mythic POV) and its culture sections were useful and had the right level of detail for me as a GM. I used it to run a fun campaign using RQ/BRP back in the 1980s. If a D100 version had existed back then I would have purchased it and saved myself some conversion work.

I bought Mythic Greece enthusiastically when it came out. I had it for ages but never did anything with it.  I sold it a couple of years ago for pretty good $$.  I figured I would never play rolemaster again (and never had any interest in Hero).  I just don't have much recollection about the content.  Maybe I should have kept it.

QuoteThe old Griffon Mountain supplement for Runequest 2 had Neolithic hunter gatherers as the predominant culture in Balazar. They were adjacent to three Mycenaean-like citadels so there was a mix of bronze age and stone age. It wouldn't have been difficult to strip out the bronze age civilization and just run hunter gathers though.

Yeah, I had forgotten about Griffon Mountain.  I have a tattered copy around here but haven't touched it in ages.  Did early RQ do any other bronze age style adventures that you know of?

Quote from: Madprofessor;980627Yeah, I had forgotten about Griffon Mountain.  I have a tattered copy around here but haven't touched it in ages.  Did early RQ do any other bronze age style adventures that you know of?

From a certain point of view the vast majority of Glorantha is Bronze Age because the metal in everyday use is called bronze not iron. From a different point of view (and Glorantha always has one or more different points of view about everything) the metal called bronze isn't really bronze (i.e. an alloy of copper and tin). Gloranthan bronze isn't an alloy but something mined directly from the bones of dead gods, and it isn't the only metal used (there is also iron and various elemental metals) - though bronze is by far the dominant metal in use.

The mythological trappings and underpinnings of Glorantha are very bronze age but, with the exception of the citadels in Balazar, somehow very few if any of the published adventures feel bronze age to me. They feel iron age in the same sense that Beowulf is Iron Age.

Off topic, but since Rolemaster and Mythic Greece were mentioned,  has anybody read At Rapier's Edge, the Rolemaster swashbuckling sourcebook? If so, any good? I wouldn't use it for Rolemaster so write-ups and Rolemaster-specific rules don't much interest me, but I was wondering if it had any good background material or adventures scenarios. Their Robin Hood book was pretty good for that.

Quote from: Dumarest;980667Off topic, but since Rolemaster and Mythic Greece were mentioned,  has anybody read At Rapier's Edge, the Rolemaster swashbuckling sourcebook? If so, any good? I wouldn't use it for Rolemaster so write-ups and Rolemaster-specific rules don't much interest me, but I was wondering if it had any good background material or adventures scenarios. Their Robin Hood book was pretty good for that.

I think you mean "At Rapier's Point." I have a PDF copy. Here's the Table of Contents.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]1221[/ATTACH]
I'm afraid that may be difficult to read. Here I've zoomed in on some of the things you asked about.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]1222[/ATTACH]
[ATTACH=CONFIG]1223[/ATTACH]
As you can see it has sections on 17th century history, people and culture, historical and fictional characters (with short bios), France, England, and Rest of Europe. I used the equipment price lists to supplement my existing lists. And I always find short sources helpful, but honestly I already had a lot of information like this from my copies of H+I (and its scenarios), Flashing Blades (and its scenarios), All for One: Regime Diabolique (and a bunch of its scenarios and supplementary material), Renaissance D100, Savage Worlds of Solomon Kane, Witch Hunter, and other stuff. One consequence of having a lot of other rules and having read a lot of stuff in history books and on the Internet is that its hard for me to clearly identify which sources were most helpful as it all sort of blurs into my background knowledge.

At Rapier's Pint includes several scenarios and scenario ideas. I used one scenario, "The Werewolf of La Aveyron" as the basis for "The Werewolf of Blackwoo (https://honorandintrigue.blogspot.com/2015/10/all-hallows-eve-2-adventure-werewolf-of.html)d" an Adventure I ran for my Honor+Intrigue campaign. Here's the adventure write up (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0ByZdh96CdXlpblRDMEtfWDQxdGM/view) I used. I thought the scenario was an interesting idea and one that worked well for the low to no magic setting I wanted to run.

I hope this helps.

Quote from: Bren;980686I think you mean "At Rapier's Point." I have a PDF copy. Here's the Table of Contents.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]1221[/ATTACH]
I'm afraid that may be difficult to read. Here I've zoomed in on some of the things you asked about.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]1222[/ATTACH]
[ATTACH=CONFIG]1223[/ATTACH]
As you can see it has sections on 17th century history, people and culture, historical and fictional characters (with short bios), France, England, and Rest of Europe. I used the equipment price lists to supplement my existing lists. And I always find short sources helpful, but honestly I already had a lot of information like this from my copies of H+I (and its scenarios), Flashing Blades (and its scenarios), All for One: Regime Diabolique (and a bunch of its scenarios and supplementary material), Renaissance D100, Savage Worlds of Solomon Kane, Witch Hunter, and other stuff. One consequence of having a lot of other rules and having read a lot of stuff in history books and on the Internet is that its hard for me to clearly identify which sources were most helpful as it all sort of blurs into my background knowledge.

At Rapier's Pint includes several scenarios and scenario ideas. I used one scenario, "The Werewolf of La Aveyron" as the basis for "The Werewolf of Blackwoo (https://honorandintrigue.blogspot.com/2015/10/all-hallows-eve-2-adventure-werewolf-of.html)d" an Adventure I ran for my Honor+Intrigue campaign. Here's the adventure write up (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0ByZdh96CdXlpblRDMEtfWDQxdGM/view) I used. I thought the scenario was an interesting idea and one that worked well for the low to no magic setting I wanted to run.

I hope this helps.

It does, thanks. I'm also combing through your Honor & Intrigue blog.

Does that werewolf adventure have any relationship or similarity to Dumas' werewolf novel?

Quote from: Dumarest;978885I'd like to see GURPS Greece. I only ever see it for sale at a price I won't pay. If it's even only averagely good for GURPS, it's probably still pretty good. The Fantasy Trip could easily be used for swords 'n' sandals action but wouldn't have much background material you could use so you'd have to research it or adapt from another source.

GURPS Greece is very good. It is a shame most of the GURPS historical titles are out of print, but they are still available through Warehouse 23 as pdfs. I have most of the GURPS historical line, and even the worst were better than most RPG supplements. It has really only been the last few years that I've seen historical titles that compare well with them.


GURPS Greece provided information to run a fairly straight historical game or one using the mythical elements as real. The pdf version is only $7.99.


I am a big fan of HERO, but the GURPS stuff was of much higher quality than any supplements HERO did prior to 5E.


I'd really like to see something between TFT and GURPS. TFT just isn't quite there for me, and GURPS has gotten a bit cumbersome for me. I could certainly dial GURPS back a few notches but I'm basically lazy and don't want to use my minimal free time to do it. ;)

Quote from: Toadmaster;982414GURPS Greece is very good. It is a shame most of the GURPS historical titles are out of print, but they are still available through Warehouse 23 as pdfs. I have most of the GURPS historical line, and even the worst were better than most RPG supplements. It has really only been the last few years that I've seen historical titles that compare well with them.


GURPS Greece provided information to run a fairly straight historical game or one using the mythical elements as real. The pdf version is only $7.99.


I am a big fan of HERO, but the GURPS stuff was of much higher quality than any supplements HERO did prior to 5E.


I'd really like to see something between TFT and GURPS. TFT just isn't quite there for me, and GURPS has gotten a bit cumbersome for me. I could certainly dial GURPS back a few notches but I'm basically lazy and don't want to use my minimal free time to do it. ;)

Man to Man? It's sort of midway between The Fantasy Trip and GURPS. For me Hero has too many attributes to keep track of and I dislike the fractions that come from limitations and whatever they call them in the system. The 12-phase rounds are kind of neat. I've never played a Hero game and felt satisfied, though. A lot of Hero players I've met seem more interested in "builds" and shaving points by clever loopholes and workarounds than in actually playing a campaign. I'd like to try it with a knowledgeable referee to see how it is with players that aren't just trying to milk the most power out of their starting points. It could be good, maybe.

By the way, thanks re: Greece, but PDFs are not for me. I think I probably have all the mythic Greek material I need, but if I ever see a hardcopy at a bargain price...

GURPS sourcebooks I've always found useful for pretty much any game system. Hero's books always seemed a bit mediocre at best to me, especially anything Steve Long had his name on. Wordy, but not especially insightful or interesting to me.