Quote from: Arminius;979341Well, it convinced me to find a copy, but it wasn't my cup of tea. My copy's for sale if someone would like to make an offer.

Sorry, I couldn't get past the description of the setting and races therein. Not my thing either,  although I'll withhold judgment on the rules as I haven't played it. Now, to be sure, I mean as a referee I'm not interested in running it; I would certainly try a session as a player to see how it is. I Just can't see myself wanting to invest time running the setting.

In fairness, I didn't play it either, but I gave it a pretty careful read. By memory, some issues I had with it were use of Feat-like abilities (some of them quite "meta"), and lack of any mapping between race/culture/profession. In other words, where some games embed & express setting structure in character creation by having skills & professions flow from cultural/ethnic background (e.g. MRQ II), Atlantis seemed much more mix-and-match. On top of that, character generation seems rather time-intensive, and the further you go along that axis, the less the game as a whole can tolerate the death of PCs, even at low levels.

Quote from: AsenRG;979304Actually, no, in my case the lack of excitement is due to it treating the Antiquity the same way D&D treats Medieval Europe;).

Yup. And it was the idea all along

Quote from: Arminius;979387In fairness, I didn't play it either, but I gave it a pretty careful read. By memory, some issues I had with it were use of Feat-like abilities (some of them quite "meta"), and lack of any mapping between race/culture/profession. In other words, where some games embed & express setting structure in character creation by having skills & professions flow from cultural/ethnic background (e.g. MRQ II), Atlantis seemed much more mix-and-match. On top of that, character generation seems rather time-intensive, and the further you go along that axis, the less the game as a whole can tolerate the death of PCs, even at low levels.

(I don't have my copy in front of me - so I'm going from memory here) - The "Feats" I wanna say I remember having pre-reqs for some of them. In terms of being meta, I'm sure you're probably right, but I don't recall anything jumping out at me that screamed "horseshit" or couldn't be waived.

The Mix-and-Match character building was by design. I believe they wanted to leave it up the GM in terms of how those combinations are expressed via the respective cultures. This is not too different than say "Backgrounds" in D&D. It reminded me a bit of WFRP, to be honest. And it didn't feel limiting. Chargen is time intensive only because the sheer number of choices. Once you do it a few times, it goes fairly quickly, once you figure out what background combinations work for what you're going for.

Dumarest, if you want to see a *really* close approximation of the system for free. Check out Talislanta 5e. You can get it for free at http://talislanta.com/ (no there's nothing illegal about it - Steve Sechi has gifted all previous content for Talislanta to the public.) Tal 5e is extremely close to Atlantis in terms of system mechanics. Pretty easy stuff.

Quote from: tenbones;979743Dumarest, if you want to see a *really* close approximation of the system for free. Check out Talislanta 5e. You can get it for free at http://talislanta.com/ (no there's nothing illegal about it - Steve Sechi has gifted all previous content for Talislanta to the public.) Tal 5e is extremely close to Atlantis in terms of system mechanics. Pretty easy stuff.

Cool, thank you, I will take a look at that.

To be clear--the thing I don't like about mix-and-match is that it's not limiting.

As for Tal 5e, I'm pretty sure it doesn't have the feat-things found in Atlantis; otherwise, I agree it's pretty similar mechanically. I'm not sure about the chargen--even though 4e/5e became more skill-based than 3e and earlier, I thought it still used archetypes/templates, which effectively give you the structural mapping of culture/profession that I would see as a plus.

(BTW, I don't know about D&D 3e and up but in AD&D 1e, there are class bonuses and limitations that do structure the implied setting. Apparently it was hated on and ignored by people who wanted absolute freedom to pimp out their characters.)

Quote from: Minotaurians;979731Yup. And it was the idea all along

Whatever floats your boat, but that's not an idea I'd be excited about;).

Quote from: Arminius;979770To be clear--the thing I don't like about mix-and-match is that it's not limiting.

Sure. This is where the GM makes the call on cultural options. This is no different than 2e D&D when some kits were clearly not culturally applicable to a specific race unless the GM is willing to let the snowflake-factor into their campaign.

Quote from: Arminius;979770As for Tal 5e, I'm pretty sure it doesn't have the feat-things found in Atlantis; otherwise, I agree it's pretty similar mechanically. I'm not sure about the chargen--even though 4e/5e became more skill-based than 3e and earlier, I thought it still used archetypes/templates, which effectively give you the structural mapping of culture/profession that I would see as a plus.

As I don't have my Atlantis book with me - 5e *does* have "Feats" they're called "Quirks" (never liked that name). 4e/5e chargen was templates that represented backgrounds at various periods of your character's life. It's pretty damn handy if you want to start your PC's off a little more/less experienced, plus it shows you directly where your character is at "that stage". I'm *pretty sure* (but not totally sure) that Atlantis had something similar. 5e in particular had some *big* editing issues. But you can leverage a lot of stuff in there into your 4e game pretty easy.

All that said - the system is marvelously easy to lift for a campaign concept that matches a Sword and Sandals concept here. Many of the Atlantean races I'd just leave the fuck out (I think some of them are unnecessary too).

Quote from: Arminius;979770(BTW, I don't know about D&D 3e and up but in AD&D 1e, there are class bonuses and limitations that do structure the implied setting. Apparently it was hated on and ignored by people who wanted absolute freedom to pimp out their characters.)

Yep. When 3e hit... they blew everything wide-open and it became, as is colloquially known among many in these parts, "The Freakshow".

Quote from: Madprofessor;979167Oooh, that looks cool.  I like Zenobia a great deal as product (I have AD 43 on order), but I like the setting info and fluff a lot better than the system

Well, they're all 2d6 systems, so the modifiers should be in comparable range:).

QuoteI have no idea what StarORE is.  Anyway, good of you to notice that I am impossibly picky about system.  That's true. It's why I have hundreds of pages of houserules and habitually re-write large chunks of any system I use when I run a campaign.  It's just the way I GM.  

StarORE is free.

QuoteBRP is not heavy IMO. Mythras is a little crunchy in combat and is otherwise 'involved' but easy to play. It is more that I have played a lot of these games recently and want a change of pace.  I''ll say again, they are perfect games for what I am trying to do, I'm just feeling like something different - and that's the best excuse I have for looking at other options.

OK, so we amend what you're looking for to "lighter or as heavy as" a d100 system.
And I don't judge for being picky, it just makes it slightly harder to actually give an useful advice:D!

QuoteI am leaning towards a heavily modded BoL/Heroes of Hellas.  BoL is incredibly robust and easy to hack.  I like that. It is a favorite of mine and of my group.  A second runner up is GURPS or maybe TFT.  I've only run a little bit of GURPS in my day, and I am actually a little intimidated by it.  I couldn't comfortably hack it without more experience with it. Historical/mythic bronze age limits GURPS' scope to a pretty manageable level, so it might be a time to take the plunge.  I am also enjoying M&M, but I don't think that will be the game.  Still need to check out Agon as I know nothing about it yet. Then there is Atlantis...

Personally, from that list I'd go for either BoL or Atlantis, but that's just me;).

Quote from: tenbones;979809All that said - the system is marvelously easy to lift for a campaign concept that matches a Sword and Sandals concept here. Many of the Atlantean races I'd just leave the fuck out (I think some of them are unnecessary too).

So, I managed to borrow a copy of the Beta rules of Khepera's Atlantis the 2nd age. I know it's not quite fair to take an impression from a brief read through of Beta rules - but wow, there is a lot of setting fluff tied into the fairly involved chargen. It's good stuff, maybe even great stuff, but there seems to be a lot of setting implied in the system.  I'm thinking about pulling the trigger on the book because as a fan and GM of Swords and Sorcery, it seems like something I ought to own and try.  However, I am not really interested in the setting at the moment.  All of that creative depth kind of gets in the way.  I also find it easier to add rules to a simple game then it is to subtract them from a complex or high involved one.  So, I guess my question is how difficult do you think it would be to give the game an acid bath and separate setting and fluff from the rules in order to play an essentially historical sword and sandals game with mythological elements?

Quote from: tenbones;979809snowflake-factor

You said it, not me.

Quote5e *does* have "Feats" they're called "Quirks" (never  PC's off a little more/less experienced, plus it shows you directly where your character is at "that stage".

I may be thinking of 4e, then. The big blue book didn't have the feats/quirks--I think!--and chargen was still "pick an archetype then customize slightly", where archetype was a race-profession. Like if you're a Mogroth you're an Amber Trader and that's that, while other races would have multiple options, but each expressed in a manner particular to that race. For the curious, a summary from 1e-3e is available at http://www.hurloon.net/talislanta/archetypes.html

Good to see fans of Zenobia here. FYI those who don't know it is free on the interwebs legally. Google is your friend.

Sorry, Madprofessor, but Atlantis is among the few RPGs I'm interested in that I still haven't read:).

Quote from: Voros;979871Good to see fans of Zenobia here. FYI those who don't know it is free on the interwebs legally. Google is your friend.

Or just use this link and save yourself two clicks;).
I'm a fan of Paul Elliott's work in general, Zenobia/43 AD,  Grunt and Traveller very much included!

Quote from: Madprofessor;979822So, I guess my question is how difficult do you think it would be to give the game an acid bath and separate setting and fluff from the rules in order to play an essentially historical sword and sandals game with mythological elements?

It's one of the reasons I recommend people take a look. I think it would be ridiculously easy. Atlantis *is* very Sword-and-Sandals already. You just need to decide what to leave out. Most of the races can easily be re-skinned, or dropped. The mechanics don't require any touching, really. You'll just have to do a sifting of what you don't like, and adjust cultural stuff to your taste. I don't think it would require a lot of work at all. The Atlantis map (it's gorgeous) is a fantasy version of Earth already.

Quote from: Arminius;979823You said it, not me.

heh we're all experienced GMs/Players here - let's call the spade a spade.

Quote from: Arminius;979823I may be thinking of 4e, then. The big blue book didn't have the feats/quirks--I think!--and chargen was still "pick an archetype then customize slightly", where archetype was a race-profession. Like if you're a Mogroth you're an Amber Trader and that's that, while other races would have multiple options, but each expressed in a manner particular to that race. For the curious, a summary from 1e-3e is available at http://www.hurloon.net/talislanta/archetypes.html

Yeah. 4e didn't really do them (but you could put them in there if you wanted). I always liked 3e, myself. quick, dirty, straight to the meat of the game. Pick a race, pick an archetype, adjust two points worth of stats. AND PLAY. That' a good summary too!