It was back in the day, so I used AD&D. We used, fighters, thieves, assassins, rangers (w/o spells), and that's it I think.

Our spell casters were a cleric / magician mix, highly modified. They had training in basic astrology and alchemy, so on a daily basis they could make some potions (healing, strength, antidotes) and poisons. Weekly they could use augury (3/wk?) and divination (1/wk?). As far as outright spell casting, they were limited to 1-3 spells per day with a limited spell list, mostly abjurations and transformations.

They could fight as well as clerics.

Quote from: tenbones;978737Sure why not? I like the idea of having a hard (and unrealistically fast) assimilation of the use of iron too. So iron becomes the "mithril" of the game world. Few people know how to forge it. Then it becomes a campaign secret worthy of attaining.

Plus you can always have those gifts of the Gods bestowed you and your people. The Secret of Iron!

When I run my version - it'll be late-Bronze, early Iron with lots of stuff tossed in. Cultures, not races. Monsters are the cursed of the Gods or their minions. I'll have politics in different forms depending on the culture. I'll have Roman, Egyptian, Hittite, Mycenaean, Greek, Sumerian, Akkadian, Assyrian analog elements, with some sub-Saharan Nok-culture stuff being represented. Maybe proto-Empires, leagues and alliances barely holding on against rivals, where the Gods hold influence of a given culture or city-state as setting material.

Everything is on the table for me.

I am thinking about the late bronze age collapse around 1200-1150 BCE.  I don't care about being that historically specific but it is one of the great mysteries of history how all the eastern med and fertile crescent civilizations were wrecked at the same time.  Historians have put forth all kinds of theories: invaders (the Sea People), natural disasters,  economic collapse, ecological collapse, tidal waves of fire and slaughter - fact is we don't know.  There is a recent book on the subject: 1177 B.C: The year Civilization Collapsed.    It might make a good focal point.

Anyway, for me I think the PC homeland will be the Heroic palace culture of Greece, probably with classical Hoplite style equipment.  But I want lots of "barbarian" cultures: bloodthirsty Thracians, Scythian Horselords, Towering Celts from the dark forests of Europe, warlike Hittites with their chariots and the secret of iron, perfumed and blue bearded Babylonian merchants, Nubian kingdoms of gold and ziggurats, Cretan pirates, wandering magi from Persia, vengeful Hebrews who reject all gods but their own, necromantic priests and power mad rulers of Egypt.  I am going to comb through Herodotus for fantastic references (there's tons) of the Arimaspi, gold guarding Griffons of the Carpathians, and legends of ancient forgotten peoples and civilizations.  I'll probably ignore the western Med except as a land of howling wilderness with a few Greek and Phonetician colonies. Rome may be no more than a pair of bad-ass brothers being raised by wolves... and so on.

Quote from: Madprofessor;978770There is a recent book on the subject: 1177 B.C: The year Civilization Collapsed.    It might make a good focal point.

I was coming back to mention that very book, so instead I'll leave the link to the video where I discovered it. The author gives a pretty good overview of the book's scope:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRcu-ysocX4

Quote from: Madprofessor;978760So we're pretty much in agreement over the course of our conversation about defining the genre (with the slight exception of whether PCs can use magic), the result of which, I think, is that we are really talking about Sword and Sorcery using Heroic Age Greece as a setting.

It seems a pretty fine hair to split between Swords and Sorcery (Hyborian Age) and Swords and Sandals (Jason and the Agonauts or 300) I think.  The main difference that I can tell is that Swords and Sandals uses a setting based on history and myth that uses real-earth geography, cultures, and legends, while swords and sorcery creates these things from whole fantasy-cloth. Sandals style is also firmly rooted in the ancient world where there is more flexibility with sword and sorcery (like including medieval or even sci-fi elements. Troy (the movie) is swords and sandals, Elric is sword and sorcery.  The Hyborian Age is a bit of both, but it leans toward sword and sorcery because of the wholesale creation.  Harryhousen's Sinbad's are closer to sword and sandal.  Thundar and Game of thrones are sword and sorcery.

Maybe none of that matters and its just semantics.  Point is, I am glad to see that we are pretty much in agreement about the roles of mortals, gods, monsters, and magic in such a setting.  That helps me get down to the nitty gritty of defining system and setting specifics.

Yeah, I'd play in your game. No wizard PCs is just my personal preference. I'm not really much of a fan of wizards in any game, really.

Quote from: Madprofessor;978770There is a recent book on the subject: 1177 B.C: The year Civilization Collapsed.  It might make a good focal point.

Your link is broken. (Fixed in the quote.)

Looks like an interesting book.

Quote from: RunningLaser;978422Our very own Poobah of the D.O.N.G tenbones had a post about bronze age gaming in another thread.  What he wrote was pretty cool and got me thinking of gaming in the bronze age, something that I've never done.  What would you use to run a bronze age game?

RuneQuest/BRP/Mythras/Any d100 game.

Quote from: Madprofessor;978770I am thinking about the late bronze age collapse around 1200-1150 BCE.  I don't care about being that historically specific but it is one of the great mysteries of history how all the eastern med and fertile crescent civilizations were wrecked at the same time.  Historians have put forth all kinds of theories: invaders (the Sea People), natural disasters,  economic collapse, ecological collapse, tidal waves of fire and slaughter - fact is we don't know.  There is a recent book on the subject: 1177 B.C: The year Civilization Collapsed.    It might make a good focal point.

Anyway, for me I think the PC homeland will be the Heroic palace culture of Greece, probably with classical Hoplite style equipment.  But I want lots of "barbarian" cultures: bloodthirsty Thracians, Scythian Horselords, Towering Celts from the dark forests of Europe, warlike Hittites with their chariots and the secret of iron, perfumed and blue bearded Babylonian merchants, Nubian kingdoms of gold and ziggurats, Cretan pirates, wandering magi from Persia, vengeful Hebrews who reject all gods but their own, necromantic priests and power mad rulers of Egypt.  I am going to comb through Herodotus for fantastic references (there's tons) of the Arimaspi, gold guarding Griffons of the Carpathians, and legends of ancient forgotten peoples and civilizations.  I'll probably ignore the western Med except as a land of howling wilderness with a few Greek and Phonetician colonies. Rome may be no more than a pair of bad-ass brothers being raised by wolves... and so on.

YESSSS!!!! We can use all of this too. The migrations of the Sea Peoples happened gradually over that time-frame. Imagine in an RPG if it happened suddenly? This could happen mid-campaign and lead our intrepid heroes, the chosen of the Gods to perhaps find out where these people and their strange Gods come from? Perhaps these Gods are the ones that sent their believers to land on the PC's shores. Are the friend or foe? Both? Sounds like an epic adventure/campaign unto itself. Sounds like a perfect springboard for a new hexcrawl to foreign lands!

No limits!

We all know that the collapse of Late Bronze Age civilazation was brought about by the war between the Atlanteans and the Lemurians who were rival aliens from space, right?

Just kidding. The Late Bronze Age is a favourite period of mine for wargaming. Lots of fascinating questions in the history.

Quote from: DavetheLost;978835We all know that the collapse of Late Bronze Age civilazation was brought about by the war between the Atlanteans and the Lemurians who were rival aliens from space, right?

Of course you mean the Greys from the Zeta Reticuli star system.

Quote from: DavetheLost;978835Just kidding.

Too late to laugh it off. You revealed forbidden knowledge. Expect black helicopters.

Sign me up for a blood-thirsty Thracian;).

Quote from: RunningLaser;978422Our very own Poobah of the D.O.N.G tenbones had a post about bronze age gaming in another thread.  What he wrote was pretty cool and got me thinking of gaming in the bronze age, something that I've never done.  What would you use to run a bronze age game?

Either Mythras, or a mix of Zenobia and 43 AD RPGs, depending on the crunch level I'm going for:).

Quote from: Dumarest;978800Yeah, I'd play in your game. No wizard PCs is just my personal preference. I'm not really much of a fan of wizards in any game, really.

You're not alone in that preference:D!

Quote from: tenbones;978823YESSSS!!!! We can use all of this too. The migrations of the Sea Peoples happened gradually over that time-frame. Imagine in an RPG if it happened suddenly? This could happen mid-campaign and lead our intrepid heroes, the chosen of the Gods to perhaps find out where these people and their strange Gods come from? Perhaps these Gods are the ones that sent their believers to land on the PC's shores. Are the friend or foe? Both? Sounds like an epic adventure/campaign unto itself. Sounds like a perfect springboard for a new hexcrawl to foreign lands!

No limits!

Right!!! So just brainstorming, but the tragedies of mortals should reflect the petty squabbles of the gods (or visa versa), so the Sea People are the children of Poseidon. And they are expressing his tempest-like rage and overturning Zeus' unsteady world order. Perhaps Poseidon is pissed over the spurned love of Hera, Aphrodite, or Athena - or the seduction of his mortal daughter by Zeus (Zeus was always pulling that crap), er something petty like that.  Poseidon pulls out all the stops and unleashes the "Sea People" - whoever they are - in his vengeance.  There are lots of options for what the sea people can be, especially since history has no clue, except that they coincided with the collapse of civilization. They could be Pirates? (Nah, not epic enough) Some flooded civilization of the Black Sea?  The people of Atlantis looking for a new home? All of the sea god's worshipers prodded into a frenzy by his loyal priests? Deep ones?!?!. IDK, but I think its kinda the right epic sort of track.

I'm feeling inspired enough that I may go forward with this, and now that we've ironed out some setting questions, I can move to system:


The consensus here is for Mythras, or RQ in some form.  And I have to agree that it is the best and most natural choice - except I'm kind of burned out on it at the moment, and want to look at some lighter options.
Which leaves the following that have been mentioned so far:

- Heroes of Olympus - looks like an overlooked 1981 gem.  Problem is I know nothing about it as a system, and I can't find a copy.  It's on my collectors radar though.
- Mazes and Minotaurs -  Spinach says I need this game, and it does sound cool as a D&D alternative. I know its free as a PDF, but I'll probably buy a copy.  I'm not really looking for a class/level game, but you never know.
- Mercator - Wanderer would be better if it existed.  I like Traveler a lot.  It sounds like a lot of work to convert, but I always converting stuff anyway.  Maybe.
- Blood and Bronze - Too simple for me, but there is lots of good setting stuff to steal.
- Zenobia and 43 AD - Again, too simple.  And its the wrong period, but man there is a lot juicy stuff in there to steal!
- There is always GURPS Greece - probably not, but maybe modified TFT? Does anybody know if GURPS Greece is any good?
- Heroes of Hellas - This is probably it for me, though I'll need to modify it a lot as BoL is awfully thick grained.  Thankfully its easy to mod.
- Atlantis, the 2nd Age - I have the old OMNI edition and like it. I don't know much about the new edition. It looks crunchy, and I hear great things about Khepera.  Not enough info here to make a call.
- The old Rolemaster/Hero Myth supplement - Nah! I have a soft spot for Rolemaster, but that doesn't mean I'll ever run it again.

Did I miss any?

Someone up above mentioned Agon.

Quote from: Madprofessor;978873- Atlantis, the 2nd Age - I have the old OMNI edition and like it. I don't know much about the new edition. It looks crunchy, and I hear great things about Khepera.  Not enough info here to make a call.

It's a longish read, but Skywalker started a thread on this forum discussing the new edition, with some character creation walk-throughs, other character examples, some discussion of mechanics, and a combat example.

Quote from: Madprofessor;978770There is a recent book on the subject: 1177 B.C: The year Civilization Collapsed. It might make a good focal point.

The author has a presentation of the topic on Youtube. I watched it a couple days ago and it was interesting, though I'm curious what other historians might have to say about his ideas.