Depends on the setting; pre-1850-ish I tend to lean more to the traditional six as Strength representing physical prowess apart from Constitution is something that makes sense. Once you get into the time-period of repeating firearms as the major weapons of war and the use of armor for protection from said weapons falls into decline I tend to fold Strength and Constitution into each other as a general "Body" stat as Strength becomes more about carry capacity instead of making effective melee attacks, but SPLIT Dexterity into Prowess (hand-eye coordination used for attacks) and Reflexes (reaction time and ability to evade attacks) in order to keep it from becoming a super-stat that determines all aspects of combat (initiative, most attacks and defenses).

I'm more ambivalent about the mental stats, but whenever I tinker with them it tends to fall into making them match the physical ability scores purposes... so for a modern game I'd do Presence (mental 'strength/toughness'), Intellect (mental 'prowess') and Wits (mental 'reflexes') so that you could then use the mental scores for task resolution similar to combat for PC's intended to be significantly smarter or more charming than their players' are (ex. a puzzle might have a complexity that functions as its defense value/target number and 'resolution points' representing how much effort is needed to solve it)... or use the results to direct your roleplay (i.e. if you fail your presence check to impress a noble, you then roleplay out committing a horrible social faux pas in their presence which explains why you failed).

Quote from: Dumarest;962549If this is because we're trying to make a better fantasy game, I'll change them to ST, DX, and IQ and call it The Fantasy Trip.

I agree, but then, the weird thing about looking at D&D from a TFT perspective, is that the attributes in D&D don't directly do much unless the DM decides to invent ways they have direct effects.

I still relate to ST, DX and IQ as the core/pillar abilities. However there are useful flavors of each which are good to be able to set at different values for some people and other creatures. They govern things that are often related for humans, but not always in all aspects. A GM can use discretion to sort that out with rulings, or you can go some distance in the direction of detailing the differences.

I'm working on an OSR project and the Character Attributes are (tentatively) Perception, Defense, Speed, Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Magic Resistance. In this current iteration of the game I'm omitting Charisma, Intelligence, and Wisdom.
I need to potentially rethink Magic Resistance because I don't like the name, but it's basically (and specifically) Save vs Magic.

I do similar to cranebump: Strength, Dexterity, Intellect, Charisma.

Strength kills Constitution and takes its stuff.
Intellect covers everything Intelligence did that doesn't have to do with magic, plus all the sense/perception functions of Wisdom.
Charisma takes the rest of Wisdom and becomes about willpower, poise, guts, spirit, and (the actual meaning of Charisma) divine favor.

In my OD&D-based game, I switched from using 3d6 ability scores to just using the modifiers (from B/X). So instead of a Strength of 14, you'd just be Strength +2. This allows me to do two things.

First, I can add ability scores to monsters and NPC just by listing the non-zero ones. Forex: Orc Boss - Str +1, Cha +1, AC 4, 13 HP.

Secondly, since I don't actually need to list them all out on PC character sheets, I can use different ability scores for different characters. Even adding new ability scores during the game. I might give a character Luck +1, or Magic Resist +2, etc. Or doing the same things for skill-like abilities without a skill list; Forex: Sailing +2.

I did this mainly to facility cross-genre gaming; mixing sci-fi, post-apoc, and fantasy characters together each using their own character generation systems.

Mini six, in other words...

Quote from: Skarg;962557I agree, but then, the weird thing about looking at D&D from a TFT perspective, is that the attributes in D&D don't directly do much unless the DM decides to invent ways they have direct effects.

I still relate to ST, DX and IQ as the core/pillar abilities. However there are useful flavors of each which are good to be able to set at different values for some people and other creatures. They govern things that are often related for humans, but not always in all aspects. A GM can use discretion to sort that out with rulings, or you can go some distance in the direction of detailing the differences.

I'm not understanding what the each in the "there are useful flavors of each" refers to: the three TFT attributes or TFT vs. D&D attributes?

I don't have a specific set of attributes that I'd look for in every game. If I were specifically redesigning D&D, there would be broader questions that I'd want to answer before I could decide on what attributes I want, or whether I want any. As Cave Bear suggests, I could also ditch them. Characters would be assumed to be average for their race and class, and have uncommon changes like feats or skills to represent unusual cases. Most characters are pretty close to average for their race and class.

There are some things about the traditional attributes that bug me:

- Logically, Strength should modify hit points. If you take two people who are both average health-wise in terms of resistance to disease, but one of them has bulging muscles and can bench-press 600 pounds, and the other is a scrawny weakling. The more muscled character should be able to take more damage. Also, within the fiction, strong characters are generally tough.

- The split between Intelligence and Wisdom can be very unclear when one gets into details, and frequently overlapping. For most problem-solving, both Intelligence and Wisdom should apply. In recent editions, the Wisdom stat is often used for willpower and/or perception - which are fairly unrelated both to each other and to wisdom.

- Charisma can similarly be unclear or split, as Willie's example of an intimidating barbarian suggests. It's strange for the polished courtier and the intimidating barbarian to both be going off the same stat.

Quote from: Willie the Duck;962550That brings to mind an interesting idea. What if the OD&D stats were Dex, Con, Cha, and XP-Bonus? I mean, we really don't need to know the magic user's strength or wisdom, or the fighting man's wisdom or intelligence*, or cleric's strength or intelligence, so why have them?

*yes, yes, # of languages. I'm ignoring that for now, just like I'm ignoring thieves, elves, Greyhawk stat-use expansion, etc.

Clerics have quite a bit of use for Strength;).

Is this for a new system, a variation of OD&D, or just re-naming the D&D stats?

For the first - I'm making a system with Brawn/Dexterity/Agility/Stamina/Sharpness/Willpower - but it's a swashbuckling space western with a very different vibe than OD&D.

For the variation - I might combine STR & CON into Brawn and split Dexterity into Dex & Agility and make melee accuracy based on Dex.  Plus in OD&D Charisma isn't used for much and is often dumped - though that doesn't matter if rolling straight down.

For renaming?  Maybe change Wisdom to Willpower and Charisma to Presence.  Otherwise they're fine.

Quote from: jhkim;962616- Charisma can similarly be unclear or split, as Willie's example of an intimidating barbarian suggests. It's strange for the polished courtier and the intimidating barbarian to both be going off the same stat.

Those would appear to be just two different forms of charisma/presence/influence.

I often think I prefer no social attributes in RPGs and instead consider the player/character should have to play it out if they want to be intimidating or otherwise impressive. Sort of like increasing Stature in Boot Hill, although that has drawbacks attached to it.  Social ranks would be okay since you can inherit a title or business or whatever and it has no bearing on whether anyone is impressed by you personally as opposed to your title or position.

Another game that I thought had a pretty good breakdown of attributes, neither too few nor too many, was the 1987 Star Wars RPG: Strength, Knowledge, Dexterity, Perception, Mechanical (aptitude), and Technical (aptitude). It seems to cover all the bases well enough for me anyway.

Now that I think about it, Presence really is the replacement for WIS, and is a weird combo of WIS/CHA. It's a bit broad,of course, as Presence could represent willpower, attractiveness, personality, etc. However, fewer stats makes them all broader. Strength alone=CON, Endurance, Health, and so on. Dex is a measure of agility, speed, reflexes, etc. Mind is intellect, schooling, common sense, logic, and the like.

The main thing you get out of running D&D with fewer stats (to me), is that each is weightier. As already noted, STR (Might, Brawn, so on), sucks up the CON role of buffing Health, saves. Presence does its thing, and also gets the WIS save, making it a non-dump stat. If using a skill system, you'd have to think Mind would dominate a large block of skills (and handle spellcasting).

In any case, this question is sort of answered by Microlite-20. Three stats--STR, DEX, MND. You really can run with only that. Three Stats, four skills. But if you toss in a 4th skill to emulate CHA, you don't even need the skills, really. Every aspect can pretty much be handled with one of the four. And, if I may continue to indulge my obvious and somewhat useless point, the synergy of 4 stats fits with the ol' "Big Four" (Races and Classes). Or, as Moses Malone once said, when asked how about the 76ers postseason prospects, Fo', fo' and fo'.:-)

Quote from: AsenRG;962527Yes.
I'd make them Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Size, Appearance and Perception.
Intelligence is a player's attribute, and if you're in one class forever, wizard power is something that doesn't need to be on every character sheet.

I like this alot, although I'd probably switch Size for Willpower. But I like the idea of Int/basic Cha being left to the player to roleplay.

Quote from: Nihilistic Mind;962577I'm working on an OSR project and the Character Attributes are (tentatively) Perception, Defense, Speed, Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Magic Resistance. In this current iteration of the game I'm omitting Charisma, Intelligence, and Wisdom.
I need to potentially rethink Magic Resistance because I don't like the name, but it's basically (and specifically) Save vs Magic.

willpower?

I split Wisdom into Perception and Willpower for Low Fantasy Gaming