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Would you change the six basic OSR/D&D ability scores? What would you change?

TSR tried that with Comeliness and didnt stick, and tried again with Skills & Powers and didnt stick.

They seem to have hit it right on the first go. You can do with less, but then you lose some function. And adding more tends to just get redundant or needless.

Well they've been changing the Ability scores from way back of course. Traveller had Endurance instead of Constitution, which deftly incorporated willpower score into the physical measure. They also brought in Education instead of Wisdom and Social Standing instead of Charisma (sort of at least, as they weren't exact matches).

I've never been sure that Wisdom has been that accurate a word for the purpose in D&D. Awareness may have been better.

You could also go with more alliteration too:

Strength
Speed
Skill
Stamina
Smarts
Spirit

....for example.

I would use Wisdom/Wis as a score that you could change out for different genre's or styles, and keep all the rest the same. For example in a Thieves World (or maybe even a dungeon delving) campaign I'd swap it out for Luck. In a Samurai game Ki, in a Sci-Fi game PSI, ect.

I like the Hero System's Presence instead of Charisma. That kind of eliminates the questions on whether the intimidating barbarian or orc chieftain has a low social score or high one.

Wisdom has kind of morphed into a combo of willpower and perception. I can see it being split in games where that's the case.

Quote from: RPGPundit;962473Would you change the six basic OSR/D&D ability scores? What would you change?

Yes.
I'd make them Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Size, Appearance and Perception.
Intelligence is a player's attribute, and if you're in one class forever, wizard power is something that doesn't need to be on every character sheet.

I remember a while ago reading a giant list of RPG attributes organized by the RPG that used them alphabetically. There must have been hundreds of games listed there. I cannot find it now though, nor anything similar. Insert sad face.

I only use 4: Might, Reflexes, Mind and Presence.

For OD&D? I would just ditch the ability scores altogether. Half of them are just there for XP bonuses.

Yes and No.  

No in the sense of the changes I'd like to make would be too pervasive to be so much a change as a new game.  The six scores change alone might still be clinging to the "D&D" mantle, but by the time the ramifications of the change made it throughout the system, it would be only "D&D-ish".  

Yes, in the sense that if I'm doing a D&D hack just for me, sure, why not?.   I think I'd prefer a D&D-ish game that used Might, Intelligence, Dexterity, Charisma, Agility, and Perception.  The first four are prime requisites for various classes.  The last two are general purpose, that any character would be happy to have.  Constitution functions roll into Might.  Dex/Agility split probably obvious.  Charisma loses some (but not all) of its social aspects, but gains the "divine" parts of the dropped Wisdom.  Perception has its obvious applications, but also handles some of the social aspects.  Intelligence picks up a little of the mental aspects that used to be in Wisdom to round it out.

All that said, I'm 50/50 whether "intelligence" in this scheme would keep that label or use "Wisdom" instead.  I think I'd prefer Wisdom in the long run, both for separating the idea of "player intelligence" from the character aspect, and also because I like the idea of wizards being "wise men" more than bookish.  I'd have to playtest that one to know which way I'd fall, since I suspect it would be confusing to some people.  Furthermore, I'm well aware that "Perception" is a contentious topic.  I think I prefer it as attribute instead of skill, separate game rule, etc.  It seems to be too fundamental to the course of play (broadly) to be anything but an attribute.  From an emulation perspective, it's something that defines a character, but does not improve much over time.  Sounds like an attribute to me.  But I'm also well aware that a lot of people don't see it that way.

For the kind of game I generally run, those six attributes would also have the happy side effect of being fairly balanced in importance.

Quote from: cranebump;962534I only use 4: Might, Reflexes, Mind and Presence.

What system are those from?

Quote from: Nihilistic Mind;962546What system are those from?

None of the D&D systems. I'd fold STR and CON into MIGHT, INT and WIS into MIND.

If I were using traditional stats, then, I guess it would be STR, DEX, WIS and CHA.

Quote from: RPGPundit;962473Would you change the six basic OSR/D&D ability scores? What would you change?

If this is because we're trying to make a better fantasy game, I'll change them to ST, DX, and IQ and call it The Fantasy Trip.

Quote from: AsenRG;962527Yes.
I'd make them Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Size, Appearance and Perception.
Intelligence is a player's attribute, and if you're in one class forever, wizard power is something that doesn't need to be on every character sheet.

Quote from: Cave Bear;962541For OD&D? I would just ditch the ability scores altogether. Half of them are just there for XP bonuses.

That brings to mind an interesting idea. What if the OD&D stats were Dex, Con, Cha, and XP-Bonus? I mean, we really don't need to know the magic user's strength or wisdom, or the fighting man's wisdom or intelligence*, or cleric's strength or intelligence, so why have them?

*yes, yes, # of languages. I'm ignoring that for now, just like I'm ignoring thieves, elves, Greyhawk stat-use expansion, etc.

I've considered adapting Fate Accelerated inspired approaches, though I ended up using them for something else. Str, Con, Dex, Int, Wis and Cha all represent quantifiable numbers. Approaches are more dynamic representing vectors instead of quantities. The ones I often use are Charming, Clever, Forceful, Quick, Tough, and Willful (or Resolute or Determined). I initially used these in place of Affiliations in a Marvel Heroic hack, where I also used skills from Firefly which are verbs. So you could make a statement of declaration something like "I [Approach]ly [Skill] the [Target/Objective] with [Weapon/Device/Spell/Power/Thing]." So it's not so much what you have, as how you apply it.

Aside from that I've tried less and more ability scores and renaming them and when it comes to D&D/OSR I prefer to stick with the classics.

Depends on the setting; pre-1850-ish I tend to lean more to the traditional six as Strength representing physical prowess apart from Constitution is something that makes sense. Once you get into the time-period of repeating firearms as the major weapons of war and the use of armor for protection from said weapons falls into decline I tend to fold Strength and Constitution into each other as a general "Body" stat as Strength becomes more about carry capacity instead of making effective melee attacks, but SPLIT Dexterity into Prowess (hand-eye coordination used for attacks) and Reflexes (reaction time and ability to evade attacks) in order to keep it from becoming a super-stat that determines all aspects of combat (initiative, most attacks and defenses).

I'm more ambivalent about the mental stats, but whenever I tinker with them it tends to fall into making them match the physical ability scores purposes... so for a modern game I'd do Presence (mental 'strength/toughness'), Intellect (mental 'prowess') and Wits (mental 'reflexes') so that you could then use the mental scores for task resolution similar to combat for PC's intended to be significantly smarter or more charming than their players' are (ex. a puzzle might have a complexity that functions as its defense value/target number and 'resolution points' representing how much effort is needed to solve it)... or use the results to direct your roleplay (i.e. if you fail your presence check to impress a noble, you then roleplay out committing a horrible social faux pas in their presence which explains why you failed).

Quote from: Dumarest;962549If this is because we're trying to make a better fantasy game, I'll change them to ST, DX, and IQ and call it The Fantasy Trip.

I agree, but then, the weird thing about looking at D&D from a TFT perspective, is that the attributes in D&D don't directly do much unless the DM decides to invent ways they have direct effects.

I still relate to ST, DX and IQ as the core/pillar abilities. However there are useful flavors of each which are good to be able to set at different values for some people and other creatures. They govern things that are often related for humans, but not always in all aspects. A GM can use discretion to sort that out with rulings, or you can go some distance in the direction of detailing the differences.

I'm working on an OSR project and the Character Attributes are (tentatively) Perception, Defense, Speed, Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Magic Resistance. In this current iteration of the game I'm omitting Charisma, Intelligence, and Wisdom.
I need to potentially rethink Magic Resistance because I don't like the name, but it's basically (and specifically) Save vs Magic.

I do similar to cranebump: Strength, Dexterity, Intellect, Charisma.

Strength kills Constitution and takes its stuff.
Intellect covers everything Intelligence did that doesn't have to do with magic, plus all the sense/perception functions of Wisdom.
Charisma takes the rest of Wisdom and becomes about willpower, poise, guts, spirit, and (the actual meaning of Charisma) divine favor.

In my OD&D-based game, I switched from using 3d6 ability scores to just using the modifiers (from B/X). So instead of a Strength of 14, you'd just be Strength +2. This allows me to do two things.

First, I can add ability scores to monsters and NPC just by listing the non-zero ones. Forex: Orc Boss - Str +1, Cha +1, AC 4, 13 HP.

Secondly, since I don't actually need to list them all out on PC character sheets, I can use different ability scores for different characters. Even adding new ability scores during the game. I might give a character Luck +1, or Magic Resist +2, etc. Or doing the same things for skill-like abilities without a skill list; Forex: Sailing +2.

I did this mainly to facility cross-genre gaming; mixing sci-fi, post-apoc, and fantasy characters together each using their own character generation systems.

Mini six, in other words...

Quote from: Skarg;962557I agree, but then, the weird thing about looking at D&D from a TFT perspective, is that the attributes in D&D don't directly do much unless the DM decides to invent ways they have direct effects.

I still relate to ST, DX and IQ as the core/pillar abilities. However there are useful flavors of each which are good to be able to set at different values for some people and other creatures. They govern things that are often related for humans, but not always in all aspects. A GM can use discretion to sort that out with rulings, or you can go some distance in the direction of detailing the differences.

I'm not understanding what the each in the "there are useful flavors of each" refers to: the three TFT attributes or TFT vs. D&D attributes?

I don't have a specific set of attributes that I'd look for in every game. If I were specifically redesigning D&D, there would be broader questions that I'd want to answer before I could decide on what attributes I want, or whether I want any. As Cave Bear suggests, I could also ditch them. Characters would be assumed to be average for their race and class, and have uncommon changes like feats or skills to represent unusual cases. Most characters are pretty close to average for their race and class.

There are some things about the traditional attributes that bug me:

- Logically, Strength should modify hit points. If you take two people who are both average health-wise in terms of resistance to disease, but one of them has bulging muscles and can bench-press 600 pounds, and the other is a scrawny weakling. The more muscled character should be able to take more damage. Also, within the fiction, strong characters are generally tough.

- The split between Intelligence and Wisdom can be very unclear when one gets into details, and frequently overlapping. For most problem-solving, both Intelligence and Wisdom should apply. In recent editions, the Wisdom stat is often used for willpower and/or perception - which are fairly unrelated both to each other and to wisdom.

- Charisma can similarly be unclear or split, as Willie's example of an intimidating barbarian suggests. It's strange for the polished courtier and the intimidating barbarian to both be going off the same stat.

Quote from: Willie the Duck;962550That brings to mind an interesting idea. What if the OD&D stats were Dex, Con, Cha, and XP-Bonus? I mean, we really don't need to know the magic user's strength or wisdom, or the fighting man's wisdom or intelligence*, or cleric's strength or intelligence, so why have them?

*yes, yes, # of languages. I'm ignoring that for now, just like I'm ignoring thieves, elves, Greyhawk stat-use expansion, etc.

Clerics have quite a bit of use for Strength;).

Is this for a new system, a variation of OD&D, or just re-naming the D&D stats?

For the first - I'm making a system with Brawn/Dexterity/Agility/Stamina/Sharpness/Willpower - but it's a swashbuckling space western with a very different vibe than OD&D.

For the variation - I might combine STR & CON into Brawn and split Dexterity into Dex & Agility and make melee accuracy based on Dex.  Plus in OD&D Charisma isn't used for much and is often dumped - though that doesn't matter if rolling straight down.

For renaming?  Maybe change Wisdom to Willpower and Charisma to Presence.  Otherwise they're fine.

Quote from: jhkim;962616- Charisma can similarly be unclear or split, as Willie's example of an intimidating barbarian suggests. It's strange for the polished courtier and the intimidating barbarian to both be going off the same stat.

Those would appear to be just two different forms of charisma/presence/influence.

I often think I prefer no social attributes in RPGs and instead consider the player/character should have to play it out if they want to be intimidating or otherwise impressive. Sort of like increasing Stature in Boot Hill, although that has drawbacks attached to it.  Social ranks would be okay since you can inherit a title or business or whatever and it has no bearing on whether anyone is impressed by you personally as opposed to your title or position.

Another game that I thought had a pretty good breakdown of attributes, neither too few nor too many, was the 1987 Star Wars RPG: Strength, Knowledge, Dexterity, Perception, Mechanical (aptitude), and Technical (aptitude). It seems to cover all the bases well enough for me anyway.

Now that I think about it, Presence really is the replacement for WIS, and is a weird combo of WIS/CHA. It's a bit broad,of course, as Presence could represent willpower, attractiveness, personality, etc. However, fewer stats makes them all broader. Strength alone=CON, Endurance, Health, and so on. Dex is a measure of agility, speed, reflexes, etc. Mind is intellect, schooling, common sense, logic, and the like.

The main thing you get out of running D&D with fewer stats (to me), is that each is weightier. As already noted, STR (Might, Brawn, so on), sucks up the CON role of buffing Health, saves. Presence does its thing, and also gets the WIS save, making it a non-dump stat. If using a skill system, you'd have to think Mind would dominate a large block of skills (and handle spellcasting).

In any case, this question is sort of answered by Microlite-20. Three stats--STR, DEX, MND. You really can run with only that. Three Stats, four skills. But if you toss in a 4th skill to emulate CHA, you don't even need the skills, really. Every aspect can pretty much be handled with one of the four. And, if I may continue to indulge my obvious and somewhat useless point, the synergy of 4 stats fits with the ol' "Big Four" (Races and Classes). Or, as Moses Malone once said, when asked how about the 76ers postseason prospects, Fo', fo' and fo'.:-)

Quote from: AsenRG;962527Yes.
I'd make them Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Size, Appearance and Perception.
Intelligence is a player's attribute, and if you're in one class forever, wizard power is something that doesn't need to be on every character sheet.

I like this alot, although I'd probably switch Size for Willpower. But I like the idea of Int/basic Cha being left to the player to roleplay.

Quote from: Nihilistic Mind;962577I'm working on an OSR project and the Character Attributes are (tentatively) Perception, Defense, Speed, Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Magic Resistance. In this current iteration of the game I'm omitting Charisma, Intelligence, and Wisdom.
I need to potentially rethink Magic Resistance because I don't like the name, but it's basically (and specifically) Save vs Magic.

willpower?

I split Wisdom into Perception and Willpower for Low Fantasy Gaming

Dragon warriors had a pretty straight forward opposed system:

ATTACK vs. DEFENCE, MAGICAL ATTACK vs. MAGICAL DEFENCE, STEALTH vs. PERCEPTION, and SPEED vs. EVASION

Quote from: Psikerlord;962667Dragon warriors had a pretty straight forward opposed system:

ATTACK vs. DEFENCE, MAGICAL ATTACK vs. MAGICAL DEFENCE, STEALTH vs. PERCEPTION, and SPEED vs. EVASION

Reminds me of Pokemon stats.

With few enough attributes, you are basically turning attributes into class levels.

With heaps of attributes, you are turning attributes into skills.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;962681With few enough attributes, you are basically turning attributes into class levels.

With heaps of attributes, you are turning attributes into skills.

I don't understand what you mean in the first sentence. The second sentence: I concur.

Quote from: Willie the Duck;962550That brings to mind an interesting idea. What if the OD&D stats were Dex, Con, Cha, and XP-Bonus? I mean, we really don't need to know the magic user's strength or wisdom, or the fighting man's wisdom or intelligence*, or cleric's strength or intelligence, so why have them?

Do we really need Con? We already have hit dice for determining HD, and system shock rolls can be rolled into saving throws.

Quote from: Psikerlord;962667Dragon warriors had a pretty straight forward opposed system:

ATTACK vs. DEFENCE, MAGICAL ATTACK vs. MAGICAL DEFENCE, STEALTH vs. PERCEPTION, and SPEED vs. EVASION

I get it all except Speed vs. Evasion. How does that work?

Quote from: Dumarest;962628I often think I prefer no social attributes in RPGs and instead consider the player/character should have to play it out if they want to be intimidating or otherwise impressive.

I'm considering the idea. Getting tired of "I roll diplomacy, I got a 22." Just roleplay it.

• Strength
• Dexterity
• Endurance
• Passion
• Cognition
• Identity

And they all play a part in perception and social abilities.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;962718

• Strength
• Dexterity
• Endurance
• Passion
• Cognition
• Identity

And they all play a part in perception and social abilities.

So what would a Passion of 3 mean compared to a Passion of 9 or 18 if I'm playing this game?

Same question for Identity.

Quote from: Aglondir;962713I get it all except Speed vs. Evasion. How does that work?

Different attack spells or certain monster attacks like dragons breath, had different speeds, which was an opposed roll vs the target's evasion.

Quote from: Aglondir;962715I'm considering the idea. Getting tired of "I roll diplomacy, I got a 22." Just roleplay it.

Yeah me too

Quote from: Dumarest;962733So what would a Passion of 3 mean compared to a Passion of 9 or 18 if I'm playing this game?

Same question for Identity.

I'm glad you asked :)

#Passion is nothing more than the force you can bring to bear on non-physical tasks, such as convincing your local bugbear not to kill you.

#Identity is how able you are to resist influence which forces you to act in ways contrary to who you are or what you want. I initially had this as #Willpower, but there was too much overlap with #Passion.

Basically, the three mental attributes are parallel to the physical ones.

Quote from: Willie the DuckThat brings to mind an interesting idea. What if the OD&D stats were Dex, Con, Cha, and XP-Bonus? I mean, we really don't need to know the magic user's strength or wisdom, or the fighting man's wisdom or intelligence*, or cleric's strength or intelligence, so why have them?

Quote from: Cave Bear;962712Do we really need Con? We already have hit dice for determining HD, and system shock rolls can be rolled into saving throws.

You don't really need anything. My very first full D&D campaign I played in when I was 8 the only thing we used stats for was determining xp bonus (and even that could be dropped) and the game ran fine. However, my point was that (with the exception of languages for Int), the only thing Str, Int, and Wis did in OD&D was determine xp bonus for a specific class. So why not drop the other two for whichever class you are not. Have Str for fighting men, Int for magic users, and Wis for clerics? And in that case, why not call the stat XP-B instead? I thought it was an interesting thought experiment.

I'm quite fine with the six attributes as is. They cover a lot of ground.

Attributes, like all other things in D&D, are an abstraction. Your campaign style and setting should define how much abstraction you need. As "Searchers of the Unknown" has shown, you can play that same game with characters solely based on HDs, too.

Running Ravenloft, I sometimes wish I had Warhammer's Willpower stat.
When I do elaborate city/intrigue campaigns, I wish I had a Social Status stat.
When I go into the macro, running a domain game, I can do without most of the stats.

And since most of these things have already been done, I can steal all of these ideas from other games, because D&D's core is so flexible.

Quote from: Psikerlord;962664I like this alot, although I'd probably switch Size for Willpower. But I like the idea of Int/basic Cha being left to the player to roleplay.

I'd rather drop Constitution, myself, because Con can be folded with Str and called Might. But I find that Willpower is also unnecessary as a stat, for most cases, and it can be a save, or a skill, depending on whether you have skills.

Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;962679Reminds me of Pokemon stats.

Except Dragon Warriors predates Pokemon by over a decade:).

Quote from: Aglondir;962715I'm considering the idea. Getting tired of "I roll diplomacy, I got a 22." Just roleplay it.

"OK, but this is going to have different results depending on what you actually say. What did you say to get the result?"

Quote from: Psikerlord;962735Yeah me too

And then you roll;).

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;962766I'm glad you asked :)

#Passion is nothing more than the force you can bring to bear on non-physical tasks, such as convincing your local bugbear not to kill you.

#Identity is how able you are to resist influence which forces you to act in ways contrary to who you are or what you want. I initially had this as #Willpower, but there was too much overlap with #Passion.

Basically, the three mental attributes are parallel to the physical ones.

I like it. I'd have to try it out in a game to see how it works out but it sounds pretty good. I've never much liked Wisdom in D&D or the idea that Intelligence has much to do with perception as it does in so many games.

Quote from: Psikerlord;962665willpower?

I split Wisdom into Perception and Willpower for Low Fantasy Gaming

Willpower is a very elegant word that would cover Save vs Magic. Why didn't I think of it!? I guess I was too close to it.
Thanks, Psikerlord!

Quote from: Skarg;962557I agree, but then, the weird thing about looking at D&D from a TFT perspective, is that the attributes in D&D don't directly do much unless the DM decides to invent ways they have direct effects.

I still relate to ST, DX and IQ as the core/pillar abilities. However there are useful flavors of each which are good to be able to set at different values for some people and other creatures. They govern things that are often related for humans, but not always in all aspects. A GM can use discretion to sort that out with rulings, or you can go some distance in the direction of detailing the differences.

Quote from: Dumarest;962615I'm not understanding what the each in the "there are useful flavors of each" refers to: the three TFT attributes or TFT vs. D&D attributes?

I mean the three TFT attributes. For examples:

ST represents muscle power, health, capacity for damage, fatigue, etc., but those could be very different for some creatures (e.g. a very healthy small gymnast, or a sickly giant, or something weak of muscle but hard to kill, or a wizard with piles of magic energy but no muscle).

DX could be speed, or natural grace, or athleticism, or practiced skill, or small-scale motor skills, and not everyone has (or lacks) all of those.

IQ can mean analytical brainpower, or experience, or cunning/cleverness, or wisdom, or perceptiveness, or attention, or the capacity to learn many things, and again not everyone with high or low values in some of those have them in all.

Will echo the comment of D&D getting stats right the first time:)  

The only other game that has stats I prefer is FASERIP.

Quote from: AsenRG;962822Except Dragon Warriors predates Pokemon by over a decade:).

I got into Pokemon because of Go last July. When I started playing Soul Silver and Black I started doing some research for that and Go on Reddit and Bulbapedia. Decades of RPGs was definitely a transferable skill when studying move sets and the like. I'm working on a 5e Pokemon game for coworkers and have even started a map (http://i415.photobucket.com/albums/pp233/KrimsonGray/Campaign%20Cartographer/Planet%20Explorers%20Pidge_zpsixtlzgdx.png) for it.

Quote from: Skarg;962885I mean the three TFT attributes. For examples:

ST represents muscle power, health, capacity for damage, fatigue, etc., but those could be very different for some creatures (e.g. a very healthy small gymnast, or a sickly giant, or something weak of muscle but hard to kill, or a wizard with piles of magic energy but no muscle).

DX could be speed, or natural grace, or athleticism, or practiced skill, or small-scale motor skills, and not everyone has (or lacks) all of those.

IQ can mean analytical brainpower, or experience, or cunning/cleverness, or wisdom, or perceptiveness, or attention, or the capacity to learn many things, and again not everyone with high or low values in some of those have them in all.

Yes, I like that it leaves it open to interpretation. A wizard with high ST is not necessarily built like Arnold Schwarzenegger circa 1979. A warrior with high IQ may not be educated but rather may just be perceptive.

Quote from: Dumarest;962832I like it. I'd have to try it out in a game to see how it works out but it sounds pretty good. I've never much liked Wisdom in D&D or the idea that Intelligence has much to do with perception as it does in so many games.

I find that too many RPGs treat acquiring data and interpreting data as a single discrete action. I treat sensory abilities as a matter of the former, and #Cognition the latter. It's the difference between 'you hear a noise' and 'you hear a #Werewolf'.

Quote from: Dumarest;962692I don't understand what you mean in the first sentence. The second sentence: I concur.

It would depend what system we're talking about, but...

If attributes affect what you can do, then the fewer the attributes, the more powerful those attributes are. Their in-game effect becomes like levels. For example, in AD&D1e the best possible to-hit bonus from Strength alone is +3. A fighter of 1st or 2nd level has +2 compared to a man-at-arms, one of 3rd or 4th has +4, and so on. Thus, level is more important than attributes.

A "class" in AD&D1e acts like a collection of skills in other games, but without rolling for them - a fighter is assumed to know how to plan an ambush, a magic-user can tell magical runes from normal writing, and so on. In other systems they roll for those things.

If you roll for everything, then every roll is affected by your attributes. As the number of attributes drop, the relative importance of each increases. Thus, the attribute becomes like a character class. With six attributes, you might be "a fighter who is not really strong but is smart and dexterous", with (for example) two attributes of Brains and Brawn, you can't be dexterous but not strong, or strong but wheezing a lot, you're either Brawny or you're not. It'll just add to your class level.

Absent character classes, few attributes adding to many skills will mean that instead of calling you a "fighter" we just call you "that brawny guy." Consider for example Classic Traveller: let's say we absorbed 3 each of the current attributes into Brains and Brawn, but kept the bonus/malus attributes of various types and levels give to the skills. We'd find, I should think, many more players trying to improve one or both of those attributes. Because individually they'd be much more important to play than would the various skills. Much as players try to improve their character's class level in AD&D1e.

Thus, with few enough attributes, you are basically turning attributes into class levels.

I understand you now and concur.

The only Ability Score addition I've seen that really works is the Luck stat in DCC.

Quote from: RPGPundit;963253The only Ability Score addition I've seen that really works is the Luck stat in DCC.

How is it used in DCC? Is it a save or roll to see who gets hit by random projectiles and the like, or is there more to it?

Quote from: RPGPundit;963253The only Ability Score addition I've seen that really works is the Luck stat in DCC.

We used a "Karma" skill in a homebrew some 20+ years ago. Karma was rolled like a stat, like anything else. You could burn KAR points to do various things, the more unlikely/difficult, the more it cost. You re/gained a small amount of KAR from finishing adventures. If you ever just plain ran out of KAR, then you were "out of luck."

My favorite so far is probably Dragon Age's:

Strength
Dexterity
Magic
Cunning
Willpower
Constitution

Mostly as it nicely distinguishes magical aptitude from the things we normally associate with intelligence and does away with the "Wisdom" weirdness in the process, with aspects of the also often-debated "Charisma" falling also between Cunning and Willpower.

Not much a fan of the rest of the system, but loved these stats since the first video game.

Eclipse Phase also stands out as something very elegant to me, but it's a bit setting-specific.

Personally, I like the attributes in Fantasy Age better;).

Quote from: Nihilistic Mind;963332How is it used in DCC? Is it a save or roll to see who gets hit by random projectiles and the like, or is there more to it?

It's used in various ways. Usually through a roll-under of the score when used directly.  But the Luck Modifier affects a number of things: fumbles, criticals, something else randomly determined from a table at character creation, etc.
Also, when a character gets below 0hp, they make a luck roll to see if they survive or die.

Finally, characters can 'burn' luck points to get a bonus to a roll. For most characters, this burn is permanent, but Thieves recover luck when they use it this way, making it one of their special powers. Halflings too.

Okay I have been meaning to post on this but iv been busy and lazy A terrible combination.

Any way I started at the standard 6 in my game but ended up changeing to 9

strength
vitality
dexterity
agility
intelligence
spirit
charisma
sight
luck

Most of the changes are ether A: splinting A standard d&d stat or B: A renaming for esthetic reasons.

that leaves sight witch is more or less an accuracy stat as my game dumps any idea of BAB / THACO in favor of a more individualized design though sight also effect crit rate and a few other things.
Luck is pretty much a all rounder stat helps a little with most things but will never make you good at any thing.

It's probably worth pointing out that mechanically my game has some rather different goals in it's design that would likely not function well out side of those concepts.

Earthdawn uses these 6: Strength, Dexterity, Toughness, Perception, Willpower, Charisma.

It also uses a pool of "Karma Dice" (bonus d6s you can spend on in-character-class actions).

The stats are rated 3-18+, and each is translated to a "Step" (bonus) = Value/3(rounded down) +1. Skills add to the Step to determine the final die pool for each action.

I find the secondary stats a very elegant solution. Dex determines Physical Defense, Perception determines Mystic Defense, and high Willpoer may grant a few points of Mystic Armor (with one character race getting a few points of innate physical armor). Charisma determines Social Defense. Those are all the difficulty numbers and effects mods(armor) you need to resolve nearly anything with any character.