Quote from: The Butcher;845950Wonder how it all ties in, chronologically (if at all) with the Hickman Revolution.

It ties in just perfectly BUT that is not such a big deal.

Part of my pet theory (upthread) is that storytelling was bound to enter the hobby, one way or the other.

Yes, Dragonlance was published during the formative years of DSA, and yes, the DSA crew knew about it (FanPro was an importer/distributor as well as a publisher as well as the editorial crew of DSA). There was a piece on German TV in that time, an interview with FanPro people and gamers of their circle (about the growing RPG hobby) in which one player identified himself as "I am playing a character named Dalamar..."

But as I said upthread, nearly everyone who entered the hobby didn't do it from a wargame (or even game) angle. That hobby was seen as a literary medium almost from the beginning.

It was seen in AD&D groups as well. It was absolutely normal to overhear conversations in game stores, where AD&D DMs boasted when was the last time that their group had even touched a die, let alone having had a combat, or seen a dungeon. Stuff like that was seen as "good roleplaying".

Also, while Dragonlance was omnipresent (mainly the translated novels that were big bestsellers) the translation of the single modules stalled after DL 3 (or so). A later try to translate the omnibus edition never went past vol. 2. The Dragonlance campaign was never completely translated into German!


Sett is right about the German tendency of storyfication.
Traces of that are even in Midgard, which is the closest we have to an old school RPG. Midgard was born out of an endless fantasy cosim campaign which is best described as the endgame of D&D as a hex wargame, mixed with Diplomacy: countries warring against one another, with some figures representing single characters.

The resulting history of the continents was written down and collected in yearbooks, and there was a Society of Creative Anachronism-style vibe going on with regards to other, emergent activities: creating and detailing the cultures of the countries, languages, costumes, probably songs - and the inevitable novelization.
In 1975, years before the first Dragonlance novel (and 2 years before proto-Midgard, Adventures in Magira) Hugh Walker wrote a series of novels telling the adventures of a player of the Eternal Game who was drawn into the game. That series was even translated to English.

Quote from: Brad;845996So if I bought this book for the pretty pictures, could I use it to run a non-railroad fantasy game? Or would I be better off just using AD&D or Pathfinder?

That's a really difficult question. I don't know how DSA5 will turn out.
Into every other edition (other than DSA1) the setting Aventuria was hard-coded into the rules.

Yes, theoretically the rules could be used in other settings, if you don't mind all the Aventuria-isms in the class names, the skill names, the weapon names.
All the work of getting Aventuria out of the system was, for me personally, the biggest hindrance to ever try to GM it (other than DSA1, which I did).

And this hard-coding of the setting is the reason why the game simply is not used as a generic fantasy game in Germany. AD&D and Midgard GMs would of course invent their own settings (despite there being official offerings), but not DSA GMs. Aventuria or bust.
(It's the other way round - DSA GMs growing bored with DSA adapt the setting to other systems. There's Savaged Aventuria, FATEd Aventuria, and Sett can tell you about using several versions of D&D for his epic Aventuria campaign...)

Quote from: Brad;845996So if I bought this book for the pretty pictures, could I use it to run a non-railroad fantasy game? Or would I be better off just using AD&D or Pathfinder?

What Dirk said, PLUS:

MAPS! Gorgeous, as long as you do not think too much about the scale. For a neat impression for a project that actually put it all up as a skin for GoogleEarth, see:

http://www.dereglobus.org/

Cosmology as it is interwoven with geography.
I do not want to go all fanboi on the DSA Cosmology, but I really really like it, and it is very open and inspiring.
One of the great benefits is that it allows D&D style plane hopping BUT at the same time keeps the flavour faux-medieval/fairy tale. In D&D, the planes quickly become like space episodes of Doctor Who or weirldly steampunkish (Planescape). But for a very decent cosmology including lots of nicely crafted myths & legends on former ages and the process of advanceing between ages that KEEPS the tone, it is unsupraddes IMHO.
Of course in official material that is only there to be enjoyed by the referee.

Quote from: RPGPundit;845958I think Gygax was big on wordiness, and had a very particular style. Whether you call it pompous or whatever, the point is that in comparison, 2e was boring as hell.

Pompous. :huhsign: I'd been wondering what the hell pomous meant. I guess I just never made the connection.

Quote from: Beagle;845984Of course, verbal language is not everything, but it is a central element of RPGS. You can have a decent RPG in the traditional sense without miniatures, background noises of all sorts or even direct face to face interaction (even though I agree, without seeing your fellow players the game isn't the same) but you cannot have a silent RPG, at least for an RPG in the traditional sense.

Then you have yet to play Nightmare in Silence, granted that Nightmare in Silence is not a typical scenario and to be fair it doesn't need to be completely silent.

Quote from: Dirk Remmecke;845997In 1975, years before the first Dragonlance novel (and 2 years before proto-Midgard, Adventures in Magira) Hugh Walker wrote a series of novels telling the adventures of a player of the Eternal Game who was drawn into the game. That series was even translated to English.

I remember War-Gamers' World. Haven't thought of it in decades though.

I'm curious to see the rules since there's been a host of Dark Eye computer game adaptations for both the rules and the world.

Blackguards, Blackguards 2, Demonicon, The Dark Eye: Chains of Satinav, Memoria, the non-online versions of Drakensang, The Realms of Arkania.  These are both RPGs and a few adventure games.

So, see if my conclusions make any sense...Aventuria is a great setting with ridiculous amounts of resources available, TDE system itself is clunky and not that inspiring, the production values for TDE are top-notch, modern German culture doesn't really like failure in an rpg.

Taking this into account, I'll probably get the English version because, much like The One Ring, I think there's a place for rpg coffee-table books.

Quote from: Beagle;845984TDE has a significant problem with railroading, but that is the result of its own traditions and has grown over the years. Back in the nineties,

4 of the first 9 modules published for DSA in the mid-eighties had massive railroading problems. Specifically.
Im Wirtshaus zum Schwarzen Keiler
Unter dem Nordlicht
Durch das Tor der Welten
Der Strom des Verderbens
DSA and railroading has been a problem forever.

Quote from: Dirk Remmecke;845997[stuff]

Sorry, still trying to understand what you mean to distinguish "wargame roots" and "simulationist". Possibly my problem is really "wargame", which for me is quite broad and includes titles as varied as Circus Maximus, Magic Realm (maybe borderline), Republic of Rome, and Cry Havoc as well as Napoleon at Waterloo and the Russian Campaign.

For me the key element is having mechanics that model the situation--that simulate something, but not necessarily having mechanics if they aren't needed. (So: Diplomacy may not be the most wargame-y wargame, but not for lack of alliance rules.) It's the antithesis of a gamey-game that has mechanics designed to create interesting gameplay without necessarily simulating a real dynamic. As such, RQ is a wargame über alles.

On the other hand if a "wargame" means the subject is military-political conflict, and generally large-scale, or at least consistent focus on combat--say, a skirmish wargame--then I can see a difference in ethos between that and RQ/HM/etc.

??

OK, so presumably whats getting translated is the most recent edition of TDE, and we dont know what adventures are going to make it over here, either new ones or "classics", so heres my question: how many of the criticisms on this thread are actually of the current TDE and how many are, well, dated complaints about earlier versions of the game? Because Im seeing a lot of references to the 80s and 90s.

Quote from: TristramEvans;846068so heres my question: how many of the criticisms on this thread are actually of the current TDE and how many are, well, dated complaints about earlier versions of the game?

I think pretty much all the complaints in this thread have been up to date. It is just that the examples have been culled from all over the past 30 years.

@Arminius:
I think RQ-Simulationism is close enough to get an idea of where TDE was attempting to go. They failed, mostly because they continue to WANT realism, but then shirk away from doing any (numerical) modelling. The recent "Trade" supplement was the most flagrant perpetrator that I heard of. Instead of prices and transport costs the wrote hundreds of pages on different kinds of potatoes.

It's all about FEELING to do sth. realistic, not actually modelling stuff.

Quote from: igor;845966It is influenced by folk tales and, or faerie tales. As well as Tolkien and Sword&Sorcery fiction.

Quote from: igor;845966It has a richly detailed interesting setting that is still cliche enough, that setting junkies can explain the needed basics to an outsider in 5 minutes.

Quote from: igor;845966Some DSA monsters are interesting and unique. Especially the dragons, the kobolds and the goblins.

Those are the only good selling points, as far as I'm concerned. Especially the last one. I'm always on the lookout for interesting takes on monsters.

Quote from: igor;845966In DSA a character might be gay, because those exist and that is no big deal. In D&D there either are no homo's, or it is a very momentous thing that there are.

I feel obliged to respond to this one because I feel it's thoroughly asinine.

Most roleplaying game settings, D&D or otherwise, to the best of my knowledge, are officially mostly silent on character sexuality and sexual mores (though I realize Ed Greenwood has spoken on sexuality in the Realms in the past, I don't think this has ever been on record in an official gaming supplement). This means that any given D&D game's attitude towards sexuality is exactly as good as whatever the GM makes out of it.

Also, "homo" is kind of a derogatory term, isn't it?

Quote from: igor;845966The Gamemaster gets to wear a special mask and the players get to shout the actual magic spells at the table. Is this stupid? Yes! Is this awesome? Allso yes!
fulminictus donnerkeil triff und töte wie ein pfeil!

Quote from: Dirk Remmecke;845997It ties in just perfectly BUT that is not such a big deal.

Part of my pet theory (upthread) is that storytelling was bound to enter the hobby, one way or the other.

Wow, that is one deep rabbit hole. Thanks again.

I still don't understand how this explains Germany's affection for the Hoff.

Dude, that fascination ebbed away faster then the La Ola following the tearing-down of the Berlin Wall....