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Last week "Ulisses Spiele" announced that "The Dark Eye" will be back in America early 2016 in it's new fifth edition.

The first brand new product will be the "The Dark Eye: Rulebook", a 400p. full-colored Hardcover book.

There is already a Quickstart Guide as PDF (http://ulisses-us.com/thedarkeye/TDE-Quickstart-new.pdf) with basic information about rules, the world Aventuria and a short scenario to play. (there seem to be a few problems with the PDF, some text passages aren't layouted correctly. I hope it will be fixed soon. After I downloaded the PDF, the problems I had in my browser were gone.  )

What do you think about the relaunch?
Will you check it out or at least play the scenario presented in the Quickstart Guide?
Have you played TDE before?


 Official The Dark Eye homepage with further information (http://ulisses-us.com/thedarkeye/)

 TDE on Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/thedarkeyegame?fref=ts)


sfmbe ;)

I'll give it a look, although to be honest I have one reservation.  From what I understand, TDE is a system tied to a specific setting with lots of supplements and modules and a huge (at this point) backstory.  After seeing how slowly C7 translates Yggdrasil from French to English, I'm wary of getting into a game that I will like that has tons of great stuff I know I won't read until I retire. :D

Serious question: given what's already in the market, what is the attraction of this game to English-speaking audiences? System-wise and setting-wise.

I have the B&W pdf of the original edition, always thought about picking it up, but the setting just didn't catch me for some reason.

That quickstart PDF is very pretty...

Is TDE similar to Adventures in the East Mark in that it was basically a German version of D&D that morphed into its own system?

Quote from: Brad;845328That quickstart PDF is very pretty...

Is TDE similar to Adventures in the East Mark in that it was basically a German version of D&D that morphed into its own system?

Yes and no. The original game in the early eighties was a lot more like D&D (but actually simpler, at least in the most basic version), but modern TDE has become a very different system with quite different rules and concepts than D&D. There are probably still some similarities, but for the most part, the systems are not significantly closer to each other than any two older, not particularly story-gamerish fantasy RPGs.
And of course it is pretty; traditionally TDE has had the by far best covers for any RPG products of all times, thanks to the late Ugurcan Yüce. Unfortunately, the tradition also seems to demand that the covers tend to be much more exciting than the contents.

Quote from: Brad;845328That quickstart PDF is very pretty...

Is TDE similar to Adventures in the East Mark in that it was basically a German version of D&D that morphed into its own system?

Not at all. TDE started as a game modeled after Mentzer D&D: class-and-level, race-as-class, Basic and Expansion boxes, but a d20-roll-under system with active parry, ablative armor, and magic points. Spells were inpired by T&T, funny rhymes in faux latin.
(The game was designed by the translator of D&D and T&T.)

But the game quickly became its very own beast, getting a skill system (first a single d20 roll-under affair, with skill ranks modified by attribute ranks, like in RQ, later and up to today an elaborate system of three d20 attribute checks, all of which must succeed, with skill ranks being a "buffer" that checks might be failed by.)

4th edition changed the (by now) already quite flexible* class system to a very detailed background/profession scheme that lets everyone learn nearly every skill according to chosen career. (Think: a mix of GURPS and WHFRP.)

The brand new 5th edition is a refinement of the principles of 4th ed.

* "flexible" within the boundaries of the official setting, Aventuria. TDE is not a semi-generic game such as (A)D&D.

I haven't played D&D nor I know "Adventures in the East Mark" so I can't compare it with TDE.

TDE originates from a job to translate D&D into German back in the early '80s. Out of license problems the translation wasn't published and the translators, who had already experiences in P&P-Games, created TDE. This is 30 years ago. Over the years there were a lot of evolution in the system. Rules changed, the world grew bigger and bigger. I would claim TDE is not a D&D clone (out my humble experiences and knowledge).

So, today TDE isn't a Dungeon Crawl like D&D (thats how I understand D&D).
TDE's focus is set on it's world, Aventuria, with a huge meta plot, which is still "under construction". The editors publish every few months a magazine divided into an ingame and an outgame part in which they explain the newest changes in the world. But no worry, it's possible to ignore the meta plot at all or if you just want to follow it a little bit. For me, the "living world", with it's different cultures and NPCs with a detailled background are the main reason to play TDE. It's fun to see how NPCs grow up and whats happen to them.

As a player, you can explore this world in combination with your own play style. The set of rules support various P&P play styles ( the typical ones as you can find in "Role play theories"). Besides the basic rules there are plenty optional rules you can add to your play -- feel free to ignore them!. The more you play and learn about the world and rules you can expand your game style.

The fifth edition was created with the community. The editors collected Feedback about the fourth edition and it's disadvantages were well known for years (the fourth edition was published 2001, the update 4.1 with major changes 2006). After this, a Beta test took place and the rules were worked over.
I have to admit that the 4. edition was very complex and some topics complicated. It had a lot of dysfunctional rules but I like to play it because of it's depth and level of details. TDE has a lot of possibilities to create your character. There are magicians ( as an example of the detailled rules: one magician isnt like another, there are elves, druids, witches, mostly human magicians seperated into three Guilds, ... ) warriors, priests, or profane characters like hunters or social professions.

One of the goals of the fifth edition is, to simplify the rules so TDE is easier to learn and to handle. The new rules are modular and evolved out of the 4th. edition. It#s now easier to expand the rules you want to use. At the beginning of TDE 5 the basic rules are published and then the additional and more detailled rules. The basic rules are fully playable but may lack some content.

Besides the Rulebooks there are extra books about the world and specific topics ( trading, seafaring, different soldier or magical academies ( schools were "Guild magicians" are trained).
 The first book with a world descirption will be the "Aventurian Almanach" (240 full-colored pages) with a descprition about the whole world. After this there will be books about particular parts of Aventurica with more detailled descriptions about towns, the residents etc.
At least this is the time schedule for DSA 5 in Germany.

There are more things so tell but hey, TDE 2.0 was announced last week. I#m sure you will find more information and updates on the official homepage and Facebook soon.



(Phew, not easy to explain something in English if you haven't wrote a longer text in English for a while, so sfmbe :P )

Quote from: Brad;845328That quickstart PDF is very pretty...

It is.

The system is neither here nor there, though. And the adventure... yeesh.

Quote from: The Butcher;845346It is.

The system is neither here nor there, though. And the adventure... yeesh.

It doesn't matter how much money an American publisher throws into an RPG game, the French and German ones look better, curbstomp us every time.

FFG's the only one that can compete.  Paizo and WotC look amazing, until you see another game and realize there's...something...missing from Pathfinder and D&D's art.

Quote from: The Butcher;845346The system is neither here nor there, though. And the adventure... yeesh.

It is the curse of a metaplot-driven setting with a long tradition of published adventures (way over 300 by now) that they must have adventures. The main target group is not only expecting them, the adventures and thus the access to be a part of the official metaplot is a major appeal of the system.  Thus, it is obligatory that any adventure is fully compatible to the canon (and older works from the time before the official history are usually ridiculed by the fanbase, because of "silly" concepts like crashed spaceships) and this strict adherence to the boundaries of canon doesn't leave much freedom when it comes to contents. Hell, I can even see the hyperfans read this and become annoyed about the idea of slavers in the central empire

Also, the format is similarly rigid: the players are not supposed to lose, or fail at any given scenario. The authors aren't quite that explicit about it, but pretty much all TDE adventures are based on the assumption that the gamemaster will fudge the dice, cheat and make sure that the outcome of the adventure will happen as planned and that this behaviour isn't patronizing and awful.

The sad thing is, Aventuria as a setting is actually... okay. It isn't particularly innovative, but the attention to detail and a certain playfulness and boy scout romanticism on the one hand and the ecclectic combination of all kinds of sub settings on the other hand made it a quite enjoyable setting. Unfortunately, the metaplot and pointless shovelware source books for a fan base that is more interested in reading about their setting or get read about it by a game master than playing in it (with a ctual free will and the need to make decisions that have consequences and so on) mostly ruined that.

Quote from: CRKrueger;845359It doesn't matter how much money an American publisher throws into an RPG game, the French and German ones look better, curbstomp us every time.

That really made me laugh. I don't know about French RPG products (if I had to guess, I would assume that access to a relative high number of well-trained artists are a by-product of the the French comic industry, but that might very well be a stereotype) but TDE is not representative of German RPGs at all (most don't have a significant budget for artwork, for instance), and the promo material for a new edition is not particularly representative of the system, either. Usually, only the (traditionally completely useless and fully replacable) basic core book will be printed in color, while the rest is black and white. Also, you can normally expect a lot of recycled artwork.

Quote from: Schattenwanderer;845341I haven't played D&D nor I know "Adventures in the East Mark" so I can't compare it with TDE.

East Mark is a clone comparable to red box Basic D&D, the version that Kiesow translated in 84.

QuoteTDE originates from a job to translate D&D into German back in the early '80s. Out of license problems the translation wasn't published and the translators, who had already experiences in P&P-Games, created TDE.

Kiesow's translation was published - but not by the publisher originally intended for. Kiesow sold the translation to the competitor that had won the bid for the D&D license.

QuoteSo, today TDE isn't a Dungeon Crawl like D&D (thats how I understand D&D).

Well, it's ironic that D&D is known for pure dungeoneering among DSA/TDE players, and not for "inventing" the preferred playstyle of TDE (via Dragonlance and Living City ren-faire play of the RPGA)...

Quotethe "living world", with it's different cultures and NPCs with a detailled background are the main reason to play TDE. It's fun to see how NPCs grow up and whats happen to them.

Translation: Aventuria has its own staple of Drizzt and Khelben and Elminster-style characters...

I mainly registered here to clear some things up Beagle said, because some of them would have been true if he would have said them 5 years ago... but really aren't anymore. On others I completely disagree.

Quote from: Beagle;845368It is the curse of a metaplot-driven setting with a long tradition of published adventures (way over 300 by now) that they must have adventures. The main target group is not only expecting them, the adventures and thus the access to be a part of the official metaplot is a major appeal of the system.

True for most players, but definitely not all of them. I've played with groups that didn't care about the metaplot at all, and mostly played adventures they made up themselves.
Note that there's also a bunch of official adventure-modules that are relatively independent of the metaplot and can be set in any timeframe.

Quote from: Beagle;845368Also, the format is similarly rigid: the players are not supposed to lose, or fail at any given scenario. The authors aren't quite that explicit about it, but pretty much all TDE adventures are based on the assumption that the gamemaster will fudge the dice, cheat and make sure that the outcome of the adventure will happen as planned and that this behaviour isn't patronizing and awful.

That's not true anymore. More and more adventures-modules in the last couple of years have been very modular, non-linear and open-ended, and many of them have been the most popular one's in recent years (Wildermark Campaign, Herren von Chorhop, Sturmgeboren, etc.). It's a trend, and it wouldn't suprise me to see many more of these modular adventures in the future.

Quote from: Beagle;845368The sad thing is, Aventuria as a setting is actually... okay. It isn't particularly innovative, but the attention to detail and a certain playfulness and boy scout romanticism on the one hand and the ecclectic combination of all kinds of sub settings on the other hand made it a quite enjoyable setting. Unfortunately, the metaplot and pointless shovelware source books for a fan base that is more interested in reading about their setting or get read about it by a game master than playing in it (with a ctual free will and the need to make decisions that have consequences and so on) mostly ruined that.

Many of the sourcebooks are actually pretty great. Many however aren't. Now last edition they made 14 regional source books, they're stepping it up to 20 or 24 (?) for the new edition, and Aventuria is a small continent. I wouldn't be suprised if quality suffers, but I guess we'll see. There's definitely enough information and detail in the 300+ adventures, 150+ novels and thousands of pages of established lore to fill these books. Then of course there's source-books on all kinds of other topics, from Mage-Academies (meh) to an actual historical setting taking place around 3-4 thousand years before the contemporary setting (Die Dunklen Zeiten - very great!).

And of course they'll have all of these again, and more, with some new information and some new content, but mostly old rehashed information.

That shouldn't disturb English players, however, since it's most likely their first contact with the system (apart from maybe the cRPGs).

Quote from: Beagle;845368That really made me laugh. I don't know about French RPG products (if I had to guess, I would assume that access to a relative high number of well-trained artists are a by-product of the the French comic industry, but that might very well be a stereotype) but TDE is not representative of German RPGs at all (most don't have a significant budget for artwork, for instance), and the promo material for a new edition is not particularly representative of the system, either. Usually, only the (traditionally completely useless and fully replacable) basic core book will be printed in color, while the rest is black and white. Also, you can normally expect a lot of recycled artwork.

The new Edition will be in color, I think all of it. At least all the rules, supplements and source-books. Not sure about the adventure-modules, but I'm sure many of them will be full-color as well.

They really stepped their game up in terms of illustration quality this time, judging by what I've seen on blogs and in the quickstarter. I am guessing though that they're just using more artwork per page in the quickstarter to make it more appealing, artwork that is then planned for actual releases which will then only have illustrations every 2-4 pages.  

We'll see.

Here's three short and suprisingly well produced English-dubbed videos about the appeal of The Dark Eye and it's history. You should watch them, they give a good first impression (even though the American dubbing voices are very bland and boring).

The Dark Eye - A European Game for Players Worldwide (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJTl_pKEadM)

The Dark Eye - An Ancient World, A New Edition (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2SNtLeZoOg)


The Origins of The Dark Eye (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HRQRJ_olnn8)

They really seem to be serious about the English market this time.

Systems are ultimately meaningless. If they can sell the setting well, that will determine the game's success IMO. It may be an incredibly deep and rich setting but if like Tekumel, your average gamer doesn't have ready access to that world depth, it will just be "another fantasy game", competing with D&D and its hundreds of successors.

I'm interested, having known about Dark Eye for a long time, but with language being a barrier. But it was never the system that interested me. Honestly, if I end up running it, there's a 99% chance it will be using WHFRP 1e.

And thus, the apologists are crawling out of the woodwork...

Quote from: ulix;845460That's not true anymore. More and more adventures-modules in the last couple of years have been very modular, non-linear and open-ended, and many of them have been the most popular one's in recent years (Wildermark Campaign, Herren von Chorhop, Sturmgeboren, etc.). It's a trend, and it wouldn't suprise me to see many more of these modular adventures in the future.

Admittedly, I haven't played Sturmgeboren. It was published after I lost any interest in the celebrated mediocrity of contemporary TDE. Perhaps it is actually good, but I thought that even the usual fanboys dismissed it as a going through the motions pseudo-sandbox with no actual substance to the main plot (here: pioneers on the frontier, if I remember correctly).

Herren von Chorhop is 13 years old. Remind me, how exactly is an adventure that is older than the Nolan Batman movies or the conclusion of the Star Wars prequels by any means a representation of 'the last couple of years'? It is also not particularly open-ended. Almost all major events are completely scripted, as is the complete final and outcome of the campaign in its entirety. Just because the sequential order of these events isn't completely fixed doesn't mean it is not entirely railroading based adventure design. By creating the lie of freedom and that the player's decisions actually do matter It is even worse in many ways than an openly railroading adventure, that is at least honest about it. This adventure may include a deceptive promise of freedom, only to use invisible walls to restrict the players, and reshift the paths to lead back to exactly the same outcome.
Also every adventure that starts with the PCs being captured and enslaved as a scripted event is a reason to punch the author.

The Wildermark campaign is only seven years old, so better, but not exactly a recent product, either.
It is also complete shit, taking the actually pretty cool idea of a campaign endgame  (the players get the opportunity to become local warlords in a war-torn and lawless border region), and completely ruining it: the main appeal of the whole campaign is to rebuild and to create an own  power base, expand the own territory and bring back peace to the region. And the adventures offer absolutely fucking nothing to support this. Absolutely nothing on any economic aspects in a fief management campaign. Nothing whatsoever on any military aspects in a micro-setting centered around the PCs becoming local rulers and warlords . Instead of actual substance you have a lot of impotent hand-weaving and yet again a forgone conclusion. A mostly railroaded campaign where the time span between the fixed scenarios aren't scripted as well, ist still mostly a fucking railroaded campaign. So, the campaign is based on a good idea ruined by deliberate incompetence, which even tarnishes the idea itself by sheer association.
Also, adding evil demonic influences to the location because the chaos and brutalization of the post-war realm requires the most easy and mentally, morally  and strategically unchallenging solution to avoid any inconvenience is nothing but an insult to the player base.

To summarize: Anybody who thinks that these are open-ended, sandbox adventures, doesn't have a clue what makes a good sandbox for roleplaying purposes. Anybody who thinks that these adventures you mentioned are positive examples of adventure design is in dire need of an insight into other RPG systems or settings.

Quote from: ulix;845460Many of the sourcebooks are actually pretty great. Many however aren't. Now last edition they made 14 regional source books, they're stepping it up to 20 or 24 (?) for the new edition, and Aventuria is a small continent. I wouldn't be suprised if quality suffers, but I guess we'll see. There's definitely enough information and detail in the 300+ adventures, 150+ novels and thousands of pages of established lore to fill these books. Then of course there's source-books on all kinds of other topics, from Mage-Academies (meh) to an actual historical setting taking place around 3-4 thousand years before the contemporary setting (Die Dunklen Zeiten - very great!).

Many of the sourcebooks are utterly pointless and add nothing to the game at all, (except, of course, the occasional power creep). The problem is, that the target group of these books are a specific group of hyperfans and collectors who buy everything and have no actual notion of what is a good RPG product  (except the previously mentioned adherence to the metaplot) any more. We are talking about people who buy prayer books for fictional religions and setting-specific cookbooks, after all.
There are exceptions, of course, but the crap to decent products ratio has suffered significantly after Ulysses took over.

Quote from: TristramEvans;845462It may be an incredibly deep and rich setting but if like Tekumel, your average gamer doesn't have ready access to that world depth, it will just be "another fantasy game", competing with D&D and its hundreds of successors.

As far as I know, Tekumel is difficult to access because it is very much a completely unique and independent setting of its own with a very high weirdness ratio despite being internally consistent. TDE is not like that at all. The setting is  primarily a pastiche of pseudo-historical elements from different eras of time (normally reachin from early to late medieval influences, with a bit Age of Sail and Musketeering thrown in for good measure). There are some unique variations, but you can normally go through the various regions and explain the setting almost completely with comparions: "This is fantasy Scandinavia with its friendly IKEA-Vikings, to the south is dark age Britain and further to the South is fairy tale Britain and France, with some Robin Hood elements. Then, even further to the south there is a mixture of Elizabethan Britain and Louis XIV France, to the east is Spain, including Amsterdam for some reason." And so on. On a superficial level, the setting is quite generic.

Quote from: TristramEvans;845462I'm interested, having known about Dark Eye for a long time, but with language being a barrier. But it was never the system that interested me. Honestly, if I end up running it, there's a 99% chance it will be using WHFRP 1e.

WHFRP should work fine, probably better than the original rules (and its horrendous 3d20 skill tests). I am sometimes tempted to write some sort of TDE retroclone with particularly simple rules playing to the strengths of the older system, but I have literally better things to do.

I wonder if that "players shouldn't fail" is some kind of German cultural thing.
I have a German-speaking player in my games, who I'm 99% sure never played DSA (he started gaming when already living in english-speaking countries, and hasn't played very many different games), who consistently had that attitude for a long time.  He was always astounded that I as the GM would just let the players not succeed, and even moreso that I'd let them actually die and not make "something" happen at the last second to somehow save them (he'd even frequently offer suggestions as to what ridiculous deus ex machina should intervene).

I was sort of wondering what you might think of this one Pundit.  Neutral for you then.  There are some nice supplements to Aventuria.  They need to give at least a tentative outlook of those, maybe three. Actual setting supplements, rather than the adventures I know they will do.  It is really early, though.

QuoteI wonder if that "players shouldn't fail" is some kind of German cultural thing.

I think it depends on the group's play style. In my group it's common that a character can die out of different reasons. Like you made a bad plan and something goes wrong. Of course fighting is deadly, too. Dangerous or probably deadly situations are always recognizable as such situations. But chasing demons into the woods out of the blue has a huge potential to be deadly, it's simply stupid to do so^^.
You should be aware that every action causes a reaction of the world you play in and sometimes the answer ist death. Deal with it, create a new character and try to do better in the future.
But no one should die out of bad luck and one dice roll.

Quote from: RPGPundit;845693I wonder if that "players shouldn't fail" is some kind of German cultural thing.

Only a gaming cultural thing, I presume.

I've had players like that in my games as well. One particular case I remember was defininitely never a DSA player (started with AD&D, like me, but sampled other systems as well).

My pet theory about all that is this:
It all depends from which angle one comes to the RPG hobby. It is human nature that we look for familiar things whenever we discover something new. We want to classify, or at least compare to what we already know.

Most German players come from a literary angle. When trying to explain themselves what an RPG is all about they figure that it's about (heroic) characters and their adventures, not unlike a novel (or TV show, or movie), but experienced in real time.
Everything else - railroads, illusionism, mood-gaming, script immunity for characters and Mary Sues - flows from that.

The persons that were mainly responsible for building the German market were the FanPro crew - the DSA designers that worked behind Schmidt Spiele.

Quote from: Dirk Remmecke;844652It's the same kind of deal that existed for 13 years between Schmidt Spiele and the people behind FanPro. Schmidt Spiele knew next to nothing about RPGs and commissioned the German D&D translators to write a game for them, and the FanPro team worked with an army of freelancers for the various tasks necessary to build and retain the whole Das Schwarze Auge RPG line.
But it was Schmidt who ordered specific types of product ("our customer reps told us that the big department chains can handle 1 new boxed set and 4 modules per half-year", "solo adventures are doing well, so half of the modules must be solo", "from a new age book deal we have an overstock of wooden rune tiles - use them in the next boxed set").

The FanPro heads and DSA designers were Kiesow, Fuchs, and Alpers, who were working in the literary field. The latter two were Grey Eminences of the SF/fantasy publishing business, acting as editors (in chief), translators, literary agents (Alpers is the German agent for GRRM). Of course they all had a literary lookout on RPGs.

Even the way the products are structured can be explained by that:
A great many adventure modules in Germany (for any system) are written to be read. They are organised in chapters, full of prose and read-aloud text. The worst few are written so that a GM can "experience the adventure like the players should", with no up-front explanation or overview, but "surprises". (There are offenders like that in English language gaming as well - Tribe 8 withheld his metaplot from the GM as well as Engel did.)

But it happened in other markets as well. With roleplaying becoming mainstream even in the US the connection to the wargame roots got severed. The second or third wave of newbs had the same "problems" (of identifying the reason for playing RPGs) as German newbs.
With steamlined products such as Mentzer D&D, and novel authors becoming the creative minds behind modules (Dragonlance) it was inevitable that the hobby was discovered, adopted and changed by the massive influx of players with other interests and outlooks, paving the way for VTM which clearly drew on literery, character-driven sources, and the whole Storygames movement.

In Germany all of that happened much faster because our exposure to the hobby was via those streamlined products - Mentzer D&D, Dragonlance, and Das Schwarze Auge which was heavily influenced first by Mentzer D&D and soon after by DL metaplot.




There is a small cultural element as well:

Most of the first adopters of RPGs (in the US in the seventies) were wargamers, so they compared to wargaming and everything in the rules was processed though that lens. For instance, the role of a referee was taken for granted, and his function and responsibilities crystal-clear.
In Germany we didn't have that gaming culture at all. More so, wargaming was seen as something pervy. A person who wants to play something as horrible as a war must have a sick mind. (The German edition of Risk is not about "conquering" countries and continents, it's about "liberating" them...)

So while in the US (and other countries that had wargaming communities) the first generation of RPGers brought their mindset with them, in Germany the novelists were the first generation.

Spoiler

Only a tiny handful of Armageddon/The Eternal Game players, who indeed were the first roleplayers in Germany (via EPT, Magira/proto-Midgard) had a wargaming angle - but they didn't mingle with the wider gaming community. Midgard, the only German RPG that was written with what we today call old school sensibilty, was an obscure item for its first - I don't know - five to eight years? It only became wider known when Schmidt (DSA) subsidiary Klee Spiele licensed it and gave it the DSA treatment - boxed sets in mainstream toy store distribution. But by then DSA and its literary playstyle was already king of the hill. (And by then Midgard had taken on a RQ or RM stance, being a rather dry, simulationist game quite divorced from its wargame roots.)

But the reason why I think that this is not such a big deal:

This explains only why we don't have a wargame-rooted old school.
The greater influx of gamers looking at the hobby through a literature and storytelling lens was inevitable.

I daresay I have pondered the question of German exceptionalism in gaming for some years both on- and offline.

What Dirk said is generally correct.

Let me add two crucial points that make up the German pop-cultural DNA of the demographic involved:

1) audio plays.
German kids, and especially German gamers, have a high chance of having been raised on audio plays. Audio plays of a certain "ambiance" type that, as far as I know, do not actually exist outside Germany. They were, in their specific make, The invention of a lady called Heikedine Körting.
(http://i.ytimg.com/vi/3LAp-getshQ/hqdefault.jpg)

There are many general German cultural traits that are reflected by audio plays, but this would be uninteresting to the outsider.

Imagine a childhood without saturday morning cartoons and especially without any american style comic books but instead with moody audio plays.
The German mainstream playstyle is: listening & feeling. That links into to a certain substrate of German mainstream culture that I would call "flow-centrism", i.e. many endeavours are flow-based in contrast to say, the US. Just take Football vs. Baseball, American Football and Basketball.  I hope the point should be clear.

2) Lustige Taschenbücher
Also a staple of a German childhood is that most comics a kid in the last 45 years will have read are the European "Duck Tales" style adventures of Mickey and Donald (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Duck_pocket_books). They cover nearly all kinds of adventure story but the always end well and often with a deus ex-machina. Also, they have a static continuity. The relevant points should be obvious.

This is of course just the baseline. There are regional differences, as with the Midgard/DSA split (Deep southern Germany vs Rhineland), and more subtle ones. In fact, as with the US there is a class-based differentiation too. The only major substrate of German competitive gaming that is neither flow centric nor expecting shit to line up nicely in the end is/was the Battletech scene. A blue collar game, if you will. Of course, Battletechers are ageing. But from what I gather, the German RPG market is shrinking.

NB: MtG and pokemon and Dragonball Z CCGs are, in their competitiveness, mentally seperated from Roleplaying. So RPG is, even for tournament style magic players, mostly about listening & feeling.

The only real hope of the last 20 years is the relative success of the translation of "Mice & Msytics".

My disdain for DSA / TDE and it's apologists is well known, btw.
The specimen we have in this thread is just clueless.

Thank you Beagle for stepping up and saving me time!

Got a chance to read the whole thread.  Honestly, about the amount of...meh I don't want to say something dismissive of anyone's opinion, since I'm pretty neutral on it.  I have really zero investment in it.

Ulix mentioned Die Dunklen Zeiten.  I wouldn't have remembered the name without the cue, but that one looked interesting.  Never looked at the adventures, just not interested in that type of game content in general.  So, I never looked through any of that stack.  Have looked at a few of the setting books, though.  There are a couple decent city ones. Havenâ was one as I recall.  Gareth in Stolze Schlösser? I think that was the supplement.

Really early issues of Aventurischer Bote had some ok D&D things as I recall.  Different anyway.

I always wanted an English edition of the old French game Empire Galactique.  Still waiting for that.  I'll have shop around for a nice condition French version again, haven't done that for awhile.

Edit: Looking around some notes it was Stolze Schlösser, dunkle Gasse (1998) for the city of Gareth stuff alright.  Havenâ that I was thinking of was the one from 85.

Quote from: Schattenwanderer;845705But no one should die out of bad luck and one dice roll.

Then why one should bother to throw the dice at all?

Indeed.
It is the quote that unravels all of German mainstream RP gaming. I think it is found in many TDE mdoules and GM-advice sections.

Quote from: Settembrini;845725I daresay I have pondered the question of German exceptionalism in gaming for some years both on- and offline.

What Dirk said is generally correct.

Let me add two crucial points that make up the German pop-cultural DNA of the demographic involved:

1) audio plays.
German kids, and especially German gamers, have a high chance of having been raised on audio plays. Audio plays of a certain "ambiance" type that, as far as I know, do not actually exist outside Germany. They were, in their specific make, The invention of a lady called Heikedine Körting.
(http://i.ytimg.com/vi/3LAp-getshQ/hqdefault.jpg)

There are many general German cultural traits that are reflected by audio plays, but this would be uninteresting to the outsider.

Imagine a childhood without saturday morning cartoons and especially without any american style comic books but instead with moody audio plays.
The German mainstream playstyle is: listening & feeling. That links into to a certain substrate of German mainstream culture that I would call "flow-centrism", i.e. many endeavours are flow-based in contrast to say, the US. Just take Football vs. Baseball, American Football and Basketball.  I hope the point should be clear.

2) Lustige Taschenbücher
Also a staple of a German childhood is that most comics a kid in the last 45 years will have read are the European "Duck Tales" style adventures of Mickey and Donald (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Duck_pocket_books). They cover nearly all kinds of adventure story but the always end well and often with a deus ex-machina. Also, they have a static continuity. The relevant points should be obvious.

This is of course just the baseline. There are regional differences, as with the Midgard/DSA split (Deep southern Germany vs Rhineland), and more subtle ones. In fact, as with the US there is a class-based differentiation too. The only major substrate of German competitive gaming that is neither flow centric nor expecting shit to line up nicely in the end is/was the Battletech scene. A blue collar game, if you will. Of course, Battletechers are ageing. But from what I gather, the German RPG market is shrinking.

NB: MtG and pokemon and Dragonball Z CCGs are, in their competitiveness, mentally seperated from Roleplaying. So RPG is, even for tournament style magic players, mostly about listening & feeling.

The only real hope of the last 20 years is the relative success of the translation of "Mice & Msytics".

Don't take this the wrong way, 'cause I don't mean it in an entirely negative context but that, what you just described up there, is really fuckin' weird.  But please go on!

Quote from: Settembrini;845761It is the quote that unravels all of German mainstream RP gaming. I think it is found in many TDE mdoules and GM-advice sections.

But the strange thing is it is uttered as well by lots of people that have never read TDE GM advice.

"In books/movies/on TV the heroes never die by accident. (And if it's an accident, it is a dramatically fitting one.)"

(Even weirder is that the very same people are big fans of Game of Thrones, where characters are falling like flies, and in the dramatically most inopportune moments.)

Regarding your last point Dirk, I think European culture, and especially German culture has general problems with contingency. Story-fication is a big thing.
It is not entirely European, just look at the Sopranos and its end. And the discussion around it. Also, the adage: "Characters should only die if they do something stupid!" is well known in the US, too.

It's just that in Germany the baseline for "storified" thinking, that ultimately is metaphysical, is much stronger.

In a way, enimity towards D&D, romanticism, metaphysical speculation, and enimity towards math as well enimity towards capitalism all follow a similar anti-modernist drumbeat.
You have that in all western culture, in Germany just much stronger and on all sides of the political spectrum.

Cultural anti-amercanism is naturally also rampant in old G. All the same root, different degree of poison in the individual blooms...

The historically aware reader might wonder if I did not leave out one "anti-XYZ". There I can give you the depressing answer: it's all so crypto due to re-education, that baseline German culture conccentrates on the other "antis".  The basic structure has not changed that much, though. Ofc some people got the message and truly became part of the West. But less than you would think or like.

ADD: Big thing in Game of Thrones mostly people who have sinned die! The moment Rob did not keep his word of honour I knew they all will meet a bad fate etc.

It's all Sopranos again so far: all deaths have some MEANING.

I will only judge that after I know the end, though. I still am unsure how much I dislike GoT, much hinges on how it all ends;-)

Quote from: thedungeondelver;845769Don't take this the wrong way, 'cause I don't mean it in an entirely negative context but that, what you just described up there, is really fuckin' weird.  But please go on!

Do not know what to add, what extra info could help you? I think I cannot easily imagine how weird it must sound to you.

Quote from: Settembrini;845794Do not know what to add, what extra info could help you? I think I cannot easily imagine how weird it must sound to you.

It sort of made sense to me.

The audio plays and the soccer sound like they are grounded in 19th century Romanticism where everything is sweeping grandeur, flowing words, images, sounds, music, and FEELINGS.

The Duck Tales sounds like it provides the continuity of character and deus ex machine salvation that counters the 19th century tragedy inevitably leading to a fatal Wagnerian ending.

Quote from: Dirk Remmecke;845712Only a gaming cultural thing, I presume.

Yeah, ask the Greeks.

Thanks for that overview.

Quote from: Dirk Remmecke;845712And by then Midgard had taken on a RQ or RM stance, being a rather dry, simulationist game quite divorced from its wargame roots.

Can you elaborate? "Simulationist" has a few different meanings, but the one I favor is hard to distinguish from a wargames approach.

Quote from: RPGPundit;845693I wonder if that "players shouldn't fail" is some kind of German cultural thing.

I don't think so. The idea of characters who are supposed to succeed no matter what isn't particularly different from the concept of " balanced" encounters specifically designed to not challenge the characters too much but only require the investment of a certain amount of ressources. WotC-D&D and Pathfinder use explicit rules for the design of encounters (as well as the very concept of "an encounter" as a disrete event within the game) as a fixed and by design strictly reglemented element to prevent that characters die too frequently, if at all.
TDE does not use explicit rules like these at all - even the concept of granting XP for defeated foes is by no means binding or used consequently in all editions or publications. Instead, the game is based on  the implicit or explicit suggestion to manipulate the outcome of an event instead of the original design. But, effectively, the result is very much the same: the inner plausibility of the game is twisted and warped to avoid any serious setbacks for the players and create immediate rewards

Quote from: Bren;845819It sort of made sense to me.

The audio plays and the soccer sound like they are grounded in 19th century Romanticism where everything is sweeping grandeur, flowing words, images, sounds, music, and FEELINGS.

The Duck Tales sounds like it provides the continuity of character and deus ex machine salvation that counters the 19th century tragedy inevitably leading to a fatal Wagnerian ending.

No, that doesn't really fit it.
The audio-dramas are common, but they are, for the most part, not any more emotional than any other medium primarliry meant for children and young adults. The language is different and tends to be a bit more flowery but that is a result of a medium that requires a descriptive while efficient language and has no visuals to support the mise-en-scene by any means.  
The Duck Tales stories are usually produced in Italy, and only translated. I have no idea how popular they are in Italy, though.
Also Football isn't a unique German past time, by any means, either. I won't deny that it is kinda important over here (up to and including long-standing regional feuds and rivalries)  but since Football is the most dominant team sport in the world, that is hardly a specific German trait. Treating other sports as if they were as relevant as Football is the actual deviation, on a global level.

I can't tell you much about the Disney-inspired comics - I grew up with franco-belgian comics, so the adventure stories of my childhood included slightly less anthropomorphic ducks and more sixties' technical gadgets and drug smuggling.
There is by the way almost no domestic comic production in Germany, and most of the better known comics are not targeted at children (during the eighties and nineties, the most well-known German comics dealt with biker gangs (humorously so), gay men, and a character that was lovingly and quite desriptively called 'the little asshole'.

However, what Settembrini said about audio-dramas is very true. So much so, that mature, serious dramas are a not too frequent, but by no means rare feature on several more serious radio stations.

Audio dramas (or Hörspiele, if you like to know the German term) are incredibly common, for pretty much all ages, including programs for pre-schoolers (about talking elephants and friendly witches, if I remember correctly). Older audiences will usually geow up to the numerous junior detectives solving all kinds of crimes (the favorites of my particular childhood included Alfred Hitchcock as a fatherly mentor figure and narrator in the earlier stories),  to almost edgy (and deliberatly cheesy) stories about demons and ghost hunters for older (but not neccessarily more mature) audiences.

 Of course, the latter genres are explicitly gameable: a troupe of reoccuring characters solve a mystery or defeat the monster of week. It is perhaps a very episodic format, but it can work very well within the contexct of an RPG, if that is your goal and you plot your game sessions very carefully, you can easily adapt the format to the gaming table, turning each session into one episode of the ongoing series/campaign. Speaking from experience, it is not particularly difficult.

The more interesting aspect however (at least to me as a linguist) is the language of the medium: like audio-plays, RPGs are basically almost exclusively based on direct langue - having no visuals and little to no text requires the use of a very descriptive and efficient language - long narrations with no action are tedious, so the narrator (or gamemaster) has to establish the location  - only through his description, and maybe the use of some sound effects - as fast and efficient as possible, before the players take over again and need to interact with that environment. Likewise, occuring side characters (like NPCs) need to be identified and, at least to a certain degree characterized by their voice alone, which again is something an aspiring gamemaster can learn from a well made audio play.

Worth mentioning.
That immunity to failure thing in DSA, only means the player characters are likely to survive the adventure. Success as a professional adventurer would define it is not a given. There have been plenty of modules over the years where failure to reach the objective you start with is 100% guaranteed. The party gets hosed half a dozen pages in and the rest of the adventure is about barely getting out alive, with nothing to show for it. I've never seen that in a D&D module.

Quote from: Arminius;845824Can you elaborate? "Simulationist" has a few different meanings, but the one I favor is hard to distinguish from a wargames approach.

Midgard had rules that tried to model real-world physics - not as good as GURPS, and some things plainly didn't work (the endurance points rule could lead to a "15 minute adventuring day"). The writing was dry, the setting was a (rather bland) hodgepodge of fantasy counterpart cultures (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FantasyCounterpartCulture) which was interesting as an example but as I usually play my own settings I never needed it.
I played Midgard for a long time, and by that time the game was exactly what I was looking for - the ideal mix of what I felt "realistic", and playability. (Btw, I still value the first intro box of Midgard as one of the best intro boxes ever written.)

It was not old school in the OD&D, Matt Finch "rulings not rules" meaning, but then I guess Midgard never really was, as The Eternal Game (the wargame that it grew out of) used to abstract quite a lot, like a rock-paper-scissors-thing with the three possible types of foot soldiers (axe vs. spear vs. sword).

Does that help, or do you need more info?

Quote from: Korgul;845752Then why one should bother to throw the dice at all?

Because the world runs on excluded middles, not preposterous extremes.

Quote from: Beagle;845855However, what Settembrini said about audio-dramas is very true. So much so, that mature, serious dramas are a not too frequent, but by no means rare feature on several more serious radio stations.

Are German audio dramas any different than Western radio dramas like The Shadow?

Quote from: Beagle;845855There is by the way almost no domestic comic production in Germany,

Domestic comic production happens in the field of cartoons, graphic novels, and manga. But not in comic books for children - that market is in the hands of Panini/Marvel/DC/Simpsons and Disney. (And, to a lesser extent, Franco-Belgian comics such as Yakari and Smurfs.)

QuoteHowever, what Settembrini said about audio-dramas is very true. So much so, that mature, serious dramas are a not too frequent, but by no means rare feature on several more serious radio stations.

And yet, I was extremely surprised what BBC4 is offering British audiences. A few days ago I listened to a Homeland-style, 45 minute, audio drama (http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b04d4nhf), that was aired following one of the inevitable daily soap opera series, The Archers.
It was way more nuanced and complex than what German radio audiences get!

QuoteOlder audiences will usually geow up to the numerous junior detectives solving all kinds of crimes (the favorites of my particular childhood included Alfred Hitchcock as a fatherly mentor figure and narrator in the earlier stories), (...)

The Three Investigators are more famous in Germany (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Investigators#Germany) than in the country of their origin, I would guess.

Quote from: WikipediaThe radio actors, who have been narrating the plays since 1979, toured the country multiple times to perform plays in front of a live-audience. They broke their own Guinness World Record when performing Phonophobia – Symphony of Fear in front of 20,000 people at Berlin Waldbühne during 2014.

The juvenile detectives genre (The Famous Five, The Three Investigators, et al) spawned a small press RPG, 1w6 Freunde (https://www.die-dorp.de/index.php/downloads/1w6-freunde/1939-1w6-freunde-2-edi).

Quote from: Beagle;845855(...) to almost edgy (and deliberatly cheesy) stories about demons and ghost hunters for older (but not neccessarily more mature) audiences.

Of course, the latter genres are explicitly gameable: a troupe of reoccuring characters solve a mystery or defeat the monster of week. It is perhaps a very episodic format, but it can work very well within the contexct of an RPG,

And the most famous series of those is John Sinclair, a mix between Supernatural, X Files and Scooby Doo. It is based on a long-running pulp novel series (1935+ issues) and was made into a beginner-style RPG by the Dark Eye publisher, Ulisses:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51UC8fzFLuL._SX349_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg)

The minimalistic game system is made for storytelling and moodgaming, and it has been said that it would be a much better fit for the playstyle of the Dark Eye modules than the TDE rules themselves...

Quote from: Beagle;845855The more interesting aspect however (at least to me as a linguist) is the language of the medium: like audio-plays, RPGs are basically almost exclusively based on direct langue - having no visuals ...

A lot of people use pictures of NPCs, PCs, and locations as well as maps, the occasional 3D building or ship, character and monster miniatures, and sound effects and background music. There is also quite a bit of nonverbal communication for any in person game and even for video chats. Language is important, but it isn't by any means all of the communication or even nearly all.

Quote from: Beagle;845855The more interesting aspect however (at least to me as a linguist) is the language of the medium: like audio-plays, RPGs are basically almost exclusively based on direct langue - having no visuals ...

A lot of people use pictures of NPCs, PCs, and locations as well as maps, the occasional 3D building or ship, character and monster miniatures, and sound effects and background music. There is also quite a bit of nonverbal communication for any in person game and even for video chats. Language is important, but it isn't by any means all of the communication or even nearly all.

Quote from: Dirk Remmecke;845866The Three Investigators are more famous in Germany (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Investigators#Germany) than in the country of their origin, I would guess.

I remember them from my childhood. IIR it was Jupiter Jones a couple of his buddies, and a Rolls Royce limo with driver that Jupiter won in a contest. I think the book I read was called something like, The Mystery of the Green Ghost.

Listening & Feeling is the cultural technique that is key here to understand German exceptionalism. Beagle, as you obviously speak from a GM perspective, you are sort of missing my point here.

But what you say on being inspired on the langugae part might just as well be used to more efficiently railroad your players;-)

I think that on a very basic cultural level, German mainstream society is not a fan of debate and arguments. Audio plays just feed into that.

Britain has Melvynn Bragg, Germany has the preachy Essays of Deutschlandfunk.

Crossroads vs. roundabouts.

Right of way vs. negotiation.

The GM in TDE always has right of way, i.e. right of talking. The players have the right to listen & feel.

Quote from: Settembrini;845926The GM in TDE always has right of way, i.e. right of talking. The players have the right to listen & feel.

What the hell does that mean?

Because it just sounds like a railroad.

And that's what it is. Think Dragonlance turned to 11.

We have a winner!

I just wished that TDE would reach a level of realness and stop trying to foster a gaming style that needs to die.

Let's hope that this English version of TDE bombs yet again (the first version did) and the publisher realizes that they can't hold a candle to D&D.

Early DSA (designed by people very familiar with D&D) is very much written in reaction to it.

Early D&D's central flaw from a mass market perspective is that it is way to niche. It's a fantasy wargame in which you play 1 person instead of an army and you explore a cave complex littered with monsters and traps. A Fighting-Man is an  infantry unit boiled down to 1 man and a Magic-User is a 1 man artillery unit.

DSA's response was.
You play 1 of the HEROES in a cheesy fantasy novel. Much less niche and much easier to understand if you are not a veteran wargamer.

Then DSA almost immediately messed it up by taking away much of the freedom of choiche they promised to give to your character early on in their starter box.

Quote from: Dirk Remmecke;845857Does that help, or do you need more info?

Thanks, but yes. I'm trying to understand what it means for "simulationist" per se to be separate from "wargaming".

Quote from: igor;845856Worth mentioning.
That immunity to failure thing in DSA, only means the player characters are likely to survive the adventure. Success as a professional adventurer would define it is not a given. There have been plenty of modules over the years where failure to reach the objective you start with is 100% guaranteed. The party gets hosed half a dozen pages in and the rest of the adventure is about barely getting out alive, with nothing to show for it. I've never seen that in a D&D module.

This isn't particularly encouraging. Sure, it sounds like immunity to death, but also immunity to success, and ultimately immunity to me giving a damn since whatever I do, the story's development and outcome are already determined.

Quote from: TristramEvans;845864Because the world runs on excluded middles, not preposterous extremes.

Except Germany.

Germany runs on extremes.

Quote from: Settembrini;845926The GM in TDE always has right of way, i.e. right of talking. The players have the right to listen & feel.

:eek:

See what I mean!?

Quote from: The Ent;845940Except Germany.

Germany runs on extremes.

Except political opinions. YOU HAVE TO BE MIDDLE OF THE ROAD. Extremely so, btw;-)

Quote from: igor;845935DSA's response was.
You play 1 of the HEROES in a cheesy fantasy novel. Much less niche and much easier to understand if you are not a veteran wargamer.

Then DSA almost immediately messed it up by taking away much of the freedom of choiche they promised to give to your character early on in their starter box.

An astute observation.
For the HEROES part without the DSA mess, I think we can safely say Palladium Fantasy covered and still covers this spot nicely.

Quote from: Settembrini;845941Except political opinions. YOU HAVE TO BE MIDDLE OF THE ROAD. Extremely so, btw;-)

:D

Yeah absolutely, there's that too. :D

Quote from: Arminius;845937This isn't particularly encouraging. Sure, it sounds like immunity to death, but also immunity to success, and ultimately immunity to me giving a damn since whatever I do, the story's development and outcome are already determined.

Part of that is splendidly ridiculed with the pun "Bauergaming".

Quote from: Arminius;845937This isn't particularly encouraging. Sure, it sounds like immunity to death, but also immunity to success, and ultimately immunity to me giving a damn since whatever I do, the story's development and outcome are already determined.

Yes Arminius that is exactly what I mean.
I'm not here to defend DSA. It is a deeply flawed mess and it has been that way basically forever. The fact that there are some good ideas being wasted inside that mess is actually kind of sad and annoying.
DSA is (to use a term coined by a man deeply loathed on this board) the original Fantasy Heartbraker.

Thank you all for chiming in. It's been an interesting read.

Wonder how it all ties in, chronologically (if at all) with the Hickman Revolution.

Quote from: Settembrini;845943For the HEROES part without the DSA mess, I think we can safely say Palladium Fantasy covered and still covers this spot nicely.

You spelled D&D 5e wrong, mate. ;) (PFRPG is a sweet little game, though)

Quote from: igor;845949The fact that there are some good ideas being wasted inside that mess is actually kind of sad and annoying.

What good ideas? What's cool about DSA?

Quote from: Settembrini;845945Part of that is splendidly ridiculed with the pun "Bauergaming".

When I read the first edition of DSA in 1984 (?), I had visions of the run of the mill beginning adventurer being a young strapping farmhand, being bored of farming and going on adventures instead. I thought that was a rather nice concept. Mostly mundane heroes facing fantasy threats as equals.

The farmhand meets a faery tale style prince, a knight errant and a young Gandalf wannabe in a tavern and together with the sexy barmaid they go do something straight out of a Conan the barbarian story, except they do it to save a kingdom.
This sounds completely sensible for early DSA. A rules light game, with Sword&Sorcery, folk tale and faery tale influences. In reality it very rarely lived up to that promise.

Bauergaming indeed.

Quote from: The Butcher;845950What good ideas? What's cool about DSA?

Not enough and they always focused on the wrong things, but culled from the past 30 years and 5 editions worth of crap:

DSA started out as rules light, well explained game. I'm a moron I'll admit it. I learned the basics of how to play a rpg from the DSA basic set as a 12 year old, because there was nobody available to teach me. Without aid I could not have learned the basics of any rpg by my self from any other rpg product of the era, that I know of.

It is influenced by folk tales and, or faerie tales. As well as Tolkien and Sword&Sorcery fiction.

It can be realistic in a good way. As opposed to many American fantasy role playing games, that are usually only realistic in a bad way. Nobody needs 'realistic' bleeding rules, but a DSA dungeon complex, might actually have a latrine and a recognizable function that has nothing to do with challenging murder hobo's rampaging through it's walls. Little details like that help suspension of disbelieve more than realistic sucking chest wound rules. In DSA a character might be gay, because those exist and that is no big deal. In D&D there either are no homo's, or it is a very momentous thing that there are.

It has a richly detailed interesting setting that is still cliche enough, that setting junkies can explain the needed basics to an outsider in 5 minutes.

The Gamemaster gets to wear a special mask and the players get to shout the actual magic spells at the table. Is this stupid? Yes! Is this awesome? Allso yes!
fulminictus donnerkeil triff und töte wie ein pfeil!

Some DSA monsters are interesting and unique. Especially the dragons, the kobolds and the goblins.

The power balance between magical and non-magical characters is better than in D&D most of the time. Magic is a support power, or something to be called on when things have gotten desperate.

The 'Schelm' occupies the same niche as the kender in D&D, but it is a lot easier for 'Schelme' to be productive party members if they want to.

Quote from: Bren;845888A lot of people use pictures of NPCs, PCs, and locations as well as maps, the occasional 3D building or ship, character and monster miniatures, and sound effects and background music. There is also quite a bit of nonverbal communication for any in person game and even for video chats. Language is important, but it isn't by any means all of the communication or even nearly all.

Of course, verbal language is not everything, but it is a central element of RPGS. You can have a decent RPG in the traditional sense without miniatures, background noises of all sorts or even direct face to face interaction (even though I agree, without seeing your fellow players the game isn't the same) but you cannot have a silent RPG, at least for an RPG in the traditional sense.

Quote from: Settembrini;845926Listening & Feeling is the cultural technique that is key here to understand German exceptionalism. Beagle, as you obviously speak from a GM perspective, you are sort of missing my point here.

So, what is your point exactly? I don't think that audio-play serials with reoccurring characters and a status quo that rules supreme create a different mindset than TV shows with reoccurring characters and a status quo that rules supreme? That comics featuring anthropomorphic ducks and mice as stock characters are how exactly completely different from superheroes as stock characters? (okay, no comic code authority and a stronger focus on visual humour might create a different approach to the medium of comics, but I'm doubtful about a possible transfer towards RPGs).

Quote from: Settembrini;845926I think that on a very basic cultural level, German mainstream society is not a fan of debate and arguments. Audio plays just feed into that.

I have no idea who you  come to that conclusion. It seems completely divorced from reality.

Quote from: TristramEvans;845927What the hell does that mean?
Because it just sounds like a railroad.

TDE has a significant problem with railroading, but that is the result of its own traditions and has grown over the years. Back in the nineties, the setting was almost comepletely restructured and redefined by this one, massive campaign, that  took six years to complete, included seven to ten adventure modules (depending which module are included in the official lineup) and a simple strategic board game to replay the epic battle at the campaign's conclusion.
I think the closest equivalent when it comes to world-building and scope is the Enemy Within campaign for Warhammer.

However, the same campaign casted the PCs as the foretold heroes mentioned in an ancient prophesy (which was a major marketing teaser for the whole thing: players could interpret the prophesy, could feel smart when they figured some plot elements out  and then tried to speculate what will happen next, while every adventure offered a new building block for its conclusion). However, due to this design, the whole campaign in all its massive glory completely depended on the ongoing survival of the PCs, at least after the point that each individual's part in the prophesy became true. Characters could still die (and the campaign included some sparse hints how to continue when one of the chosen ones dies or the players fail to succeed in one of the adventures), but there also was a clear ceiling of what the characters could possibly achieve).

This campaign is to this day the holy grail of the community. It is also very likely that most if not all of the currently active authors for TDE did not belong to the staff while it was written but when they themselves still were players and probably easily impressed by that. Combine this sense of nostalgia with a certain degree of hero worship (with the original founder dying a year or so before the campaign's conclusion) and the financial success of the whole scenario meant that they tried to copy the same or a very similar, usually not as massive concept again and again and again, cementing the idea of the PCs as the designated heroes of this enfolding epic.

Well, beagle, are you saying German culture is welcoming to debates?

I think you can find it even in textbooks of high and low make, that German culture is consensus-oriented and mainstream Germans are poster childs for conformity.

Pluralism and indivudiality are not in high regard, compared to other western cultures.

I wonder how you can think otherwise.

That my son, is reality.

So if I bought this book for the pretty pictures, could I use it to run a non-railroad fantasy game? Or would I be better off just using AD&D or Pathfinder?

Quote from: The Butcher;845950Wonder how it all ties in, chronologically (if at all) with the Hickman Revolution.

It ties in just perfectly BUT that is not such a big deal.

Part of my pet theory (upthread) is that storytelling was bound to enter the hobby, one way or the other.

Yes, Dragonlance was published during the formative years of DSA, and yes, the DSA crew knew about it (FanPro was an importer/distributor as well as a publisher as well as the editorial crew of DSA). There was a piece on German TV in that time, an interview with FanPro people and gamers of their circle (about the growing RPG hobby) in which one player identified himself as "I am playing a character named Dalamar..."

But as I said upthread, nearly everyone who entered the hobby didn't do it from a wargame (or even game) angle. That hobby was seen as a literary medium almost from the beginning.

It was seen in AD&D groups as well. It was absolutely normal to overhear conversations in game stores, where AD&D DMs boasted when was the last time that their group had even touched a die, let alone having had a combat, or seen a dungeon. Stuff like that was seen as "good roleplaying".

Also, while Dragonlance was omnipresent (mainly the translated novels that were big bestsellers) the translation of the single modules stalled after DL 3 (or so). A later try to translate the omnibus edition never went past vol. 2. The Dragonlance campaign was never completely translated into German!


Sett is right about the German tendency of storyfication.
Traces of that are even in Midgard, which is the closest we have to an old school RPG. Midgard was born (http://hillcantons.blogspot.co.uk/2011/02/how-empire-of-petal-throne-helped-birth.html) out of an endless fantasy cosim campaign (http://hillcantons.blogspot.co.uk/2011/02/map-and-links-for-magira-and-midgard.html) which is best described as the endgame of D&D as a hex wargame, mixed with Diplomacy: countries warring against one another, with some figures representing single characters.
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-gG5F6VLQRos/TVV0tWWg_ZI/AAAAAAAABrg/Vk1IRaCmgtk/s400/armageddongame2.jpg)
The resulting history of the continents was written down and collected in yearbooks, and there was a Society of Creative Anachronism-style vibe going on with regards to other, emergent activities: creating and detailing the cultures of the countries, languages, costumes, probably songs - and the inevitable novelization.
In 1975, years before the first Dragonlance novel (and 2 years before proto-Midgard, Adventures in Magira (http://fantasyguide.de/501/)) Hugh Walker wrote a series of novels telling the adventures of a player of the Eternal Game who was drawn into the game. That series was even translated to English (https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/2202947.War_Gamers_World).

(https://d.gr-assets.com/books/1301067202l/2202947.jpg)

Quote from: Brad;845996So if I bought this book for the pretty pictures, could I use it to run a non-railroad fantasy game? Or would I be better off just using AD&D or Pathfinder?

That's a really difficult question. I don't know how DSA5 will turn out.
Into every other edition (other than DSA1) the setting Aventuria was hard-coded into the rules.

Yes, theoretically the rules could be used in other settings, if you don't mind all the Aventuria-isms in the class names, the skill names, the weapon names.
All the work of getting Aventuria out of the system was, for me personally, the biggest hindrance to ever try to GM it (other than DSA1, which I did).

And this hard-coding of the setting is the reason why the game simply is not used as a generic fantasy game in Germany. AD&D and Midgard GMs would of course invent their own settings (despite there being official offerings), but not DSA GMs. Aventuria or bust.
(It's the other way round - DSA GMs growing bored with DSA adapt the setting to other systems. There's Savaged Aventuria, FATEd Aventuria, and Sett can tell you about using several versions of D&D for his epic Aventuria campaign...)

Quote from: Brad;845996So if I bought this book for the pretty pictures, could I use it to run a non-railroad fantasy game? Or would I be better off just using AD&D or Pathfinder?

What Dirk said, PLUS:

MAPS! Gorgeous, as long as you do not think too much about the scale. For a neat impression for a project that actually put it all up as a skin for GoogleEarth, see:

http://www.dereglobus.org/

Cosmology as it is interwoven with geography.
I do not want to go all fanboi on the DSA Cosmology, but I really really like it, and it is very open and inspiring.
One of the great benefits is that it allows D&D style plane hopping BUT at the same time keeps the flavour faux-medieval/fairy tale. In D&D, the planes quickly become like space episodes of Doctor Who or weirldly steampunkish (Planescape). But for a very decent cosmology including lots of nicely crafted myths & legends on former ages and the process of advanceing between ages that KEEPS the tone, it is unsupraddes IMHO.
Of course in official material that is only there to be enjoyed by the referee.

Quote from: RPGPundit;845958I think Gygax was big on wordiness, and had a very particular style. Whether you call it pompous or whatever, the point is that in comparison, 2e was boring as hell.

Pompous. :huhsign: I'd been wondering what the hell pomous meant. I guess I just never made the connection. ;)

Quote from: Beagle;845984Of course, verbal language is not everything, but it is a central element of RPGS. You can have a decent RPG in the traditional sense without miniatures, background noises of all sorts or even direct face to face interaction (even though I agree, without seeing your fellow players the game isn't the same) but you cannot have a silent RPG, at least for an RPG in the traditional sense.

Then you have yet to play Nightmare in Silence (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/1677/Blood-Brothers-II?it=1), granted that Nightmare in Silence is not a typical scenario and to be fair it doesn't need to be completely silent.

Quote from: Dirk Remmecke;845997In 1975, years before the first Dragonlance novel (and 2 years before proto-Midgard, Adventures in Magira (http://fantasyguide.de/501/)) Hugh Walker wrote a series of novels telling the adventures of a player of the Eternal Game who was drawn into the game. That series was even translated to English (https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/2202947.War_Gamers_World).

I remember War-Gamers' World. Haven't thought of it in decades though.

I'm curious to see the rules since there's been a host of Dark Eye computer game adaptations for both the rules and the world.

Blackguards, Blackguards 2, Demonicon, The Dark Eye: Chains of Satinav, Memoria, the non-online versions of Drakensang, The Realms of Arkania.  These are both RPGs and a few adventure games.

So, see if my conclusions make any sense...Aventuria is a great setting with ridiculous amounts of resources available, TDE system itself is clunky and not that inspiring, the production values for TDE are top-notch, modern German culture doesn't really like failure in an rpg.

Taking this into account, I'll probably get the English version because, much like The One Ring, I think there's a place for rpg coffee-table books.

Quote from: Beagle;845984TDE has a significant problem with railroading, but that is the result of its own traditions and has grown over the years. Back in the nineties,

4 of the first 9 modules published for DSA in the mid-eighties had massive railroading problems. Specifically.
Im Wirtshaus zum Schwarzen Keiler
Unter dem Nordlicht
Durch das Tor der Welten
Der Strom des Verderbens
DSA and railroading has been a problem forever.

Quote from: Dirk Remmecke;845997[stuff]

Sorry, still trying to understand what you mean to distinguish "wargame roots" and "simulationist". Possibly my problem is really "wargame", which for me is quite broad and includes titles as varied as Circus Maximus, Magic Realm (maybe borderline), Republic of Rome, and Cry Havoc as well as Napoleon at Waterloo and the Russian Campaign.

For me the key element is having mechanics that model the situation--that simulate something, but not necessarily having mechanics if they aren't needed. (So: Diplomacy may not be the most wargame-y wargame, but not for lack of alliance rules.) It's the antithesis of a gamey-game that has mechanics designed to create interesting gameplay without necessarily simulating a real dynamic. As such, RQ is a wargame über alles.

On the other hand if a "wargame" means the subject is military-political conflict, and generally large-scale, or at least consistent focus on combat--say, a skirmish wargame--then I can see a difference in ethos between that and RQ/HM/etc.

??

OK, so presumably whats getting translated is the most recent edition of TDE, and we dont know what adventures are going to make it over here, either new ones or "classics", so heres my question: how many of the criticisms on this thread are actually of the current TDE and how many are, well, dated complaints about earlier versions of the game? Because Im seeing a lot of references to the 80s and 90s.

Quote from: TristramEvans;846068so heres my question: how many of the criticisms on this thread are actually of the current TDE and how many are, well, dated complaints about earlier versions of the game?

I think pretty much all the complaints in this thread have been up to date. It is just that the examples have been culled from all over the past 30 years.

@Arminius:
I think RQ-Simulationism is close enough to get an idea of where TDE was attempting to go. They failed, mostly because they continue to WANT realism, but then shirk away from doing any (numerical) modelling. The recent "Trade" supplement was the most flagrant perpetrator that I heard of. Instead of prices and transport costs the wrote hundreds of pages on different kinds of potatoes.

It's all about FEELING to do sth. realistic, not actually modelling stuff.

Quote from: igor;845966It is influenced by folk tales and, or faerie tales. As well as Tolkien and Sword&Sorcery fiction.

Quote from: igor;845966It has a richly detailed interesting setting that is still cliche enough, that setting junkies can explain the needed basics to an outsider in 5 minutes.

Quote from: igor;845966Some DSA monsters are interesting and unique. Especially the dragons, the kobolds and the goblins.

Those are the only good selling points, as far as I'm concerned. Especially the last one. I'm always on the lookout for interesting takes on monsters.

Quote from: igor;845966In DSA a character might be gay, because those exist and that is no big deal. In D&D there either are no homo's, or it is a very momentous thing that there are.

I feel obliged to respond to this one because I feel it's thoroughly asinine.

Most roleplaying game settings, D&D or otherwise, to the best of my knowledge, are officially mostly silent on character sexuality and sexual mores (though I realize Ed Greenwood has spoken on sexuality in the Realms in the past, I don't think this has ever been on record in an official gaming supplement). This means that any given D&D game's attitude towards sexuality is exactly as good as whatever the GM makes out of it.

Also, "homo" is kind of a derogatory term, isn't it?

Quote from: igor;845966The Gamemaster gets to wear a special mask and the players get to shout the actual magic spells at the table. Is this stupid? Yes! Is this awesome? Allso yes!
fulminictus donnerkeil triff und töte wie ein pfeil!

(http://cdn.chud.com/e/e2/270x352px-e2f511c8_154-house-do-not-want.jpeg)

Quote from: Dirk Remmecke;845997It ties in just perfectly BUT that is not such a big deal.

Part of my pet theory (upthread) is that storytelling was bound to enter the hobby, one way or the other.

Wow, that is one deep rabbit hole. Thanks again.

I still don't understand how this explains Germany's affection for the Hoff.

Dude, that fascination ebbed away faster then the La Ola following the tearing-down of the Berlin Wall....

Quote from: The Butcher;846117Most roleplaying game settings, D&D or otherwise, to the best of my knowledge, are officially silent on character sexuality and sexual mores [...]This means that any given D&D game's attitude towards sexuality is exactly as good as whatever the GM makes out of it.

If a D&D setting has a husband and wife (or other male/female romantic partners) then it's not silent on character sexuality. Not that I advocate any universal approach here, or even any particular approach including whatever DSA has.

Quote from: Arminius;846153If a D&D setting has a husband and wife (or other male/female romantic partners) then it's not silent on character sexuality. Not that I advocate any universal approach here, or even any particular approach including whatever DSA has.

Cool hairsplitting brah. :rolleyes: Went back and got a "mostly" in there.

Pretty sure my point stands.

Huh, I think that when making a decent point, it's important not to overstate it.

It's a fact that homosexuality not only existed in the middle ages but was important and well-attested. E.g., modern mainstream historians take seriously the likelihood that Edward II had a sexual interest in his courtier Piers Gaveston.

On the other hand, whether or not Edward & Piers really "did it", the contemporary response to their relationship didn't exactly demonstrate tolerance for homosexuality in 13th century England. (That is, the nobility was either alienated by the homosexual aspect, or Piers' enemies made it up to smear him.)

There's other evidence for homosexual practices in the middle ages at various times and places with varying degrees of tolerance and persecution.

So...how does DSA handle it? I have no idea. But it certainly could be a plus worth mentioning if it reflects an overall mature and nuanced portrayal of society that helps suspension of disbelief as igor says.

Quote from: Arminius;846153If a D&D setting has a husband and wife (or other male/female romantic partners) then it's not silent on character sexuality.

It acknowledges the standard, as its always been and always will be. It does not preclude anything.

Quote from: The Butcher;846117I feel obliged to respond to this one because I feel it's thoroughly asinine.

Most roleplaying game settings, D&D or otherwise, to the best of my knowledge, are officially mostly silent on character sexuality and sexual mores (though I realize Ed Greenwood has spoken on sexuality in the Realms in the past, I don't think this has ever been on record in an official gaming supplement). This means that any given D&D game's attitude towards sexuality is exactly as good as whatever the GM makes out of it.

Also, "homo" is kind of a derogatory term, isn't it?

I am one.

Also, I remember the TSR code of ethics which explicitly banned the mentioning in all circumstances of anything remotely lgbt+ and the mini internet riot over the fact that 5th edition D&D in 2014 had turned as inclusive as DSA was in 1988.

So no, your point does not stand.

Quote from: igor;846181Also, I remember the TSR code of ethics which explicitly banned the mentioning in all circumstances of anything remotely lgbt+

In fairness, if you're referring to this (http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/alex/rec.games.frp.dnd/TSR-Ethics), the only thing I can find that touches on that in any way is

QuoteSexual themes of all types should be avoided.  Rape and graphic lust should never be portrayed or discussed. Explicit sexual activity should not be portrayed. The concept of love or affection for another is not considered part of this definition.

Maybe there was some other code of ethics which was more explicit?

Quote from: Arminius;846190In fairness, if you're referring to this (http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/alex/rec.games.frp.dnd/TSR-Ethics), the only thing I can find that touches on that in any way isMaybe there was some other code of ethics which was more explicit?

No that's the one. Sexual themes must be avoided means that you cannot mention in passing that Bob the stable hand in the inn where the adventure starts is gay. It does not mean that you cannot say that Sally the barmaid is flirtatious and you can give her a huge rack and a deep cleavage in the artwork.
That is how it was interpreted.

But yes it does not explicitly say that. You are right, my mistake.

First of all, sorry Butch, sorry Tristam, sorry everyone for getting this thread bogged down in this side issue.

Quote from: TristramEvans;846169It acknowledges the standard, as its always been and always will be. It does not preclude anything.

Acknowledging the standard, but not acknowledging that exceptions exist, leads to invisibility, invisibility leads to 2nd class citizenship status and repression. (Just pretend I said it in a Yoda voice.)


Getting back to DSA.
Nowadays DSA just like most other rpg's is marketed to adults not 12 year olds. So the days of shouting magic spells at the table are mostly over. It is no longer encouraged in the official material and has not been since about 1987.

well in alll honesty im looking forward to this release and i hope it dose well enough to get some supplements released id probably never run the standard setting my self but the fact the game has kept around some very oldish ideas in its design makes me more then a little interested in running a game

Quote from: Brad;846044So, see if my conclusions make any sense...Aventuria is a great setting with ridiculous amounts of resources available, TDE system itself is clunky and not that inspiring, the production values for TDE are top-notch, modern German culture doesn't really like failure in an rpg.

Taking this into account, I'll probably get the English version because, much like The One Ring, I think there's a place for rpg coffee-table books.

"It's a coffee table book about coffee tables."

The wiki Aventurica is the big DSA wiki. It is in German, most of it is uninteresting to people who aren't fans.
But the following 3 pages are worth mentioning.

http://www.wiki-aventurica.de/wiki/Maske_des_Meisters
About the mask that came with the first DSA expansion box. (with picture)

http://www.wiki-aventurica.de/wiki/Abenteuer%C3%BCbersicht
Just to show the sheer quantity of adventures published (all the covers are pictured)

http://www.wiki-aventurica.de/wiki/Namenlose_Nacht
I'm reminded of White Wolf's Black Dog imprint.

Quote from: igor;846442http://www.wiki-aventurica.de/wiki/Maske_des_Meisters
About the mask that came with the first DSA expansion box. (with picture).

Haha so silly :rotfl:

But, well, points for being different.

Quote from: igor;846442http://www.wiki-aventurica.de/wiki/Abenteuer%C3%BCbersicht
Just to show the sheer quantity of adventures published (all the covers are pictured).

...wow. That's a lot. :eek:

Some of these covers are pretty awesome in a guilty pleasure kinda way :D

There is absolutely no guilt whatsoever associated  in appraising the covers of Ugurcan Yüce; his work is pretty amazing and is just filled with concentrated essence of adventure. Yüce was the unmatched master of creating covers for RPG products.
 Unfortunately, the covers are often a promise the contents of the adventure modules cannot deliver. But, hey, they are pretty amazing.

Do you see the shady guy in the back? Do you know what his agenda? (http://www.wiki-aventurica.de/images/3/36/RB_MMSuZ1.jpg)

Can you think of a greater set piece than fighting a hungry allosaur in a mesoamericanic temple ruin (which may be infested with lizardmen)? (http://www.wiki-aventurica.de/images/8/85/AB_A33.jpg)

I love the pure 80s barbarian S&S/cheesecake/metal look of those covers :cool:

Quote from: The Ent;846443...wow. That's a lot. :eek:

Well, it's 30+ years of product! DSA really is the D&D of Germany.

(http://rezensionen.nandurion.de/files/2012/09/Regal-Verlauf-300x287.jpg)

Bigger version here (http://rezensionen.nandurion.de/2012/09/30/von-flugelhelm-und-schnauzbarttrager-die-cover-der-dsa-antike/regal-verlauf/).

Fantastic analysis of the cover designs, artists and logos here (http://rezensionen.nandurion.de/2012/09/30/von-flugelhelm-und-schnauzbarttrager-die-cover-der-dsa-antike/) (but all in German).

I'm honestly impressed. :jaw-dropping:

Quote from: igor;846198First of all, sorry Butch, sorry Tristam, sorry everyone for getting this thread bogged down in this side issue.

Nothing to be sorry about here. :) It's been an enlightening thread.

Is "The Dark Age" rpg the one that used a ton of awesome art by "Paul Bonner", or am I thinking of the Swedish RPG "Drakar och Demoner" a.k.a. Dragons & Demons.

That's the one I'd love to see translated into english.

Quote from: Gwarh;846756Is "The Dark Age" rpg the one that used a ton of awesome art by "Paul Bonner", or am I thinking of the Swedish RPG "Drakar och Demoner" a.k.a. Dragons & Demons.

The Dark Eye didn't have any Paul Bonner cover.

The new (seventh) edition of Drakar och Demoner: Trudvang has Paul Bonner covers (but comes in an awkward, unwieldy format - it's two massive landscape-format hardcovers!).
The only other version of DoD that I've seen is the fifth edition - the Chronopia one, with no Bonner that I remember.

Quote from: Arminius;846190In fairness, if you're referring to this (http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/alex/rec.games.frp.dnd/TSR-Ethics), the only thing I can find that touches on that in any way isMaybe there was some other code of ethics which was more explicit?

Excuse me for the little Op, but reading this code of conduct I'm struck by the extreme similarity (in spirit if not in the letter) to the Hollywood Hays'code.

For  instance the depiction of the authority and crime
 TST

Quote3: AGENTS OF LAW ENFORCEMENT

Agents of law enforcement (constables, policemen, judges, government
officials, and respected institutions) should not be depicted in such a
way as to create disrespect for current established authorities/social
values. When such an agent is depicted as corrupt, the example must be
expressed as an exception and the culprit should ultimately be brought to
justice.

4: CRIME AND CRIMINALS

Crimes shall not be presented in such ways as to promote distrust of law
enforcement agents/agencies or to inspire others with the desire to
imitate criminals. Crime should be depicted as a sordid and unpleasant
activity. Criminals should not be presented in glamorous circumstances.
Player character thieves are constantly encouraged to act towards the
common good.

Hays Code

QuoteIII. Law, natural or human, shall not be ridiculed, nor shall sympathy be created for its violation.

By natural law is understood the law which is written in the hearts of all mankind, the greater underlying principles of right and justice dictated by conscience.

By human law is understood the law written by civilized nations.

1. The presentation of crimes against the law is often necessary for the carrying out of the plot. But the presentation must not throw sympathy with the crime as against the law nor with the criminal as against those who punish him.

2. The courts of the land should not be presented as unjust. This does not mean that a single court may not be presented as unjust, much less that a single court official must not be presented this way. But the court system of the country must not suffer as a result of this presentation.

Was this very restrictive (and arguably backward) inspired by the satanic panic? Anybody knows when it was implemented the first time?

Quote from: Korgul;846827Excuse me for the little Op, but reading this code of conduct I'm struck by the extreme similarity (in spirit if not in the letter) to the Hollywood Hays'code.

For  instance the depiction of the authority and crime
 TST


Hays Code


Was this very restrictive (and arguably backward) inspired by the satanic panic? Anybody knows when it was implemented the first time?

If I remember correctly it was based on the old comic book code which was based on the Hays Code. The Satanic Panic was a major factor in it being adopted. And it was adopted somewhere in the early-to mid-80's.

Quote from: Beagle;846461There is absolutely no guilt whatsoever associated  in appraising the covers of Ugurcan Yüce; his work is pretty amazing and is just filled with concentrated essence of adventure. Yüce was the unmatched master of creating covers for RPG products.
 Unfortunately, the covers are often a promise the contents of the adventure modules cannot deliver. But, hey, they are pretty amazing.

Do you see the shady guy in the back? Do you know what his agenda? (http://www.wiki-aventurica.de/images/3/36/RB_MMSuZ1.jpg)

Can you think of a greater set piece than fighting a hungry allosaur in a mesoamericanic temple ruin (which may be infested with lizardmen)? (http://www.wiki-aventurica.de/images/8/85/AB_A33.jpg)

Man thats some awesome 70s-80s style fantasy goodness. Reminds me a bit of Angus McBride

Quote from: Gwarh;846756Is "The Dark Age" rpg the one that used a ton of awesome art by "Paul Bonner", or am I thinking of the Swedish RPG "Drakar och Demoner" a.k.a. Dragons & Demons.

That's the one I'd love to see translated into english.

He did a lot of art for the Cadwallon rpg, which was translated into English (albiet badly)

Paul's a very nice guy, unassuming and quite friendly. I'll ask him next time we talk if he did any other RPG work.

Orkenspalter tv shows of the DSA 5 book.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5NjOnxS_98

And an extensive review of the new game in German.
https://rpgnosis.wordpress.com/2015/08/06/dsa5-regelwerk-teil-1-ersteindruck-einleitung-und-grundregeln/

Quote from: igor;846198Acknowledging the standard, but not acknowledging that exceptions exist, leads to invisibility, invisibility leads to 2nd class citizenship status and repression. (Just pretend I said it in a Yoda voice.)

Apparently, Yoda doesn't know much math.  If I'm writing a series of crime novels taking place in the 4 corners area and I don't have Navajo characters, it's pretty weird, since most of the Four Corners area is Navajo land.  If, however, I write a series of crime novels in taking place in Northern Idaho, and I don't have any Sami characters, or any native Tupi-Guarani speakers, accusing me of making them invisible is idiotic.

I could go through 10,000 NPCs and have only 3 or so be transgender, which would be an appropriate ratio, but someone gets anywhere close to that these days, they'll get hammered for erasure.

Quote from: CRKrueger;847939Apparently, Yoda doesn't know much math.  If I'm writing a series of crime novels taking place in the 4 corners area and I don't have Navajo characters, it's pretty weird, since most of the Four Corners area is Navajo land.  If, however, I write a series of crime novels in taking place in Northern Idaho, and I don't have any Sami characters, or any native Tupi-Guarani speakers, accusing me of making them invisible is idiotic.

I could go through 10,000 NPCs and have only 3 or so be transgender, which would be an appropriate ratio, but someone gets anywhere close to that these days, they'll get hammered for erasure.

Stop moving the goalposts. We were talking about homosexuals. Those are a lot closer to being 3 in a 100 NPC's, than 3 in 10.000. So they are bound to show up occasionally, which is what happens in DSA.

Man, Germans are nuts.

Quote from: RPGPundit;848182Man, Germans are nuts.

Yes they are.

Quote from: RPGPundit;848182Man, Germans are nuts.

Yes. They can't even pronounce "ja" right.

Quote from: RPGPundit;848182Man, Germans are nuts.

I think that them being eccentric is a little better than them invading France every 20 years.

JG

That is mildly put.

Quote from: igor;847988Stop moving the goalposts. We were talking about homosexuals. Those are a lot closer to being 3 in a 100 NPC's, than 3 in 10.000. So they are bound to show up occasionally, which is what happens in DSA.

No, we're talking about the concept of erasure, that by not addressing the existence of a minority you are contributing to the repression of that minority.

When you said "Acknowledging the standard, but not acknowledging that exceptions exist, leads to invisibility, invisibility leads to 2nd class citizenship status and repression.", that's erasure, which is one of the biggest piles of horseshit the Identity Zealots try to push these days.

DSA wants to include it, good for them.  However, if they simply didn't go into sexual orientations/preferences or anything else of their NPCs and let the GMs decide, they wouldn't be guilty of anything.

Thanks! Now I know there is a name for that concept.

Quote from: CRKrueger;848848No, we're talking about the concept of erasure, that by not addressing the existence of a minority you are contributing to the repression of that minority.

No, we are talking about the fallout of post number 57 of this thread, which I wrote and Butcher's response to it. It is about the deliberate politicization of homosexuality in D&D throughout the years and that DSA at least does not suffer from that.

By the way, the success of the Gay Rights Movement in the US is based around a strategy of being visible.
Erasure isn't horseshit, it has been a valuable concept for both political activists and the cultural anthropologists that study them.