Last week "Ulisses Spiele" announced that "The Dark Eye" will be back in America early 2016 in it's new fifth edition.

The first brand new product will be the "The Dark Eye: Rulebook", a 400p. full-colored Hardcover book.

There is already a Quickstart Guide as PDF with basic information about rules, the world Aventuria and a short scenario to play. (there seem to be a few problems with the PDF, some text passages aren't layouted correctly. I hope it will be fixed soon. After I downloaded the PDF, the problems I had in my browser were gone.  )

What do you think about the relaunch?
Will you check it out or at least play the scenario presented in the Quickstart Guide?
Have you played TDE before?


Official The Dark Eye homepage with further information

TDE on Facebook


sfmbe

I'll give it a look, although to be honest I have one reservation.  From what I understand, TDE is a system tied to a specific setting with lots of supplements and modules and a huge (at this point) backstory.  After seeing how slowly C7 translates Yggdrasil from French to English, I'm wary of getting into a game that I will like that has tons of great stuff I know I won't read until I retire.

Serious question: given what's already in the market, what is the attraction of this game to English-speaking audiences? System-wise and setting-wise.

I have the B&W pdf of the original edition, always thought about picking it up, but the setting just didn't catch me for some reason.

That quickstart PDF is very pretty...

Is TDE similar to Adventures in the East Mark in that it was basically a German version of D&D that morphed into its own system?

Quote from: Brad;845328That quickstart PDF is very pretty...

Is TDE similar to Adventures in the East Mark in that it was basically a German version of D&D that morphed into its own system?

Yes and no. The original game in the early eighties was a lot more like D&D (but actually simpler, at least in the most basic version), but modern TDE has become a very different system with quite different rules and concepts than D&D. There are probably still some similarities, but for the most part, the systems are not significantly closer to each other than any two older, not particularly story-gamerish fantasy RPGs.
And of course it is pretty; traditionally TDE has had the by far best covers for any RPG products of all times, thanks to the late Ugurcan Yüce. Unfortunately, the tradition also seems to demand that the covers tend to be much more exciting than the contents.

Quote from: Brad;845328That quickstart PDF is very pretty...

Is TDE similar to Adventures in the East Mark in that it was basically a German version of D&D that morphed into its own system?

Not at all. TDE started as a game modeled after Mentzer D&D: class-and-level, race-as-class, Basic and Expansion boxes, but a d20-roll-under system with active parry, ablative armor, and magic points. Spells were inpired by T&T, funny rhymes in faux latin.
(The game was designed by the translator of D&D and T&T.)

But the game quickly became its very own beast, getting a skill system (first a single d20 roll-under affair, with skill ranks modified by attribute ranks, like in RQ, later and up to today an elaborate system of three d20 attribute checks, all of which must succeed, with skill ranks being a "buffer" that checks might be failed by.)

4th edition changed the (by now) already quite flexible* class system to a very detailed background/profession scheme that lets everyone learn nearly every skill according to chosen career. (Think: a mix of GURPS and WHFRP.)

The brand new 5th edition is a refinement of the principles of 4th ed.

* "flexible" within the boundaries of the official setting, Aventuria. TDE is not a semi-generic game such as (A)D&D.

I haven't played D&D nor I know "Adventures in the East Mark" so I can't compare it with TDE.

TDE originates from a job to translate D&D into German back in the early '80s. Out of license problems the translation wasn't published and the translators, who had already experiences in P&P-Games, created TDE. This is 30 years ago. Over the years there were a lot of evolution in the system. Rules changed, the world grew bigger and bigger. I would claim TDE is not a D&D clone (out my humble experiences and knowledge).

So, today TDE isn't a Dungeon Crawl like D&D (thats how I understand D&D).
TDE's focus is set on it's world, Aventuria, with a huge meta plot, which is still "under construction". The editors publish every few months a magazine divided into an ingame and an outgame part in which they explain the newest changes in the world. But no worry, it's possible to ignore the meta plot at all or if you just want to follow it a little bit. For me, the "living world", with it's different cultures and NPCs with a detailled background are the main reason to play TDE. It's fun to see how NPCs grow up and whats happen to them.

As a player, you can explore this world in combination with your own play style. The set of rules support various P&P play styles ( the typical ones as you can find in "Role play theories"). Besides the basic rules there are plenty optional rules you can add to your play -- feel free to ignore them!. The more you play and learn about the world and rules you can expand your game style.

The fifth edition was created with the community. The editors collected Feedback about the fourth edition and it's disadvantages were well known for years (the fourth edition was published 2001, the update 4.1 with major changes 2006). After this, a Beta test took place and the rules were worked over.
I have to admit that the 4. edition was very complex and some topics complicated. It had a lot of dysfunctional rules but I like to play it because of it's depth and level of details. TDE has a lot of possibilities to create your character. There are magicians ( as an example of the detailled rules: one magician isnt like another, there are elves, druids, witches, mostly human magicians seperated into three Guilds, ... ) warriors, priests, or profane characters like hunters or social professions.

One of the goals of the fifth edition is, to simplify the rules so TDE is easier to learn and to handle. The new rules are modular and evolved out of the 4th. edition. It#s now easier to expand the rules you want to use. At the beginning of TDE 5 the basic rules are published and then the additional and more detailled rules. The basic rules are fully playable but may lack some content.

Besides the Rulebooks there are extra books about the world and specific topics ( trading, seafaring, different soldier or magical academies ( schools were "Guild magicians" are trained).
 The first book with a world descirption will be the "Aventurian Almanach" (240 full-colored pages) with a descprition about the whole world. After this there will be books about particular parts of Aventurica with more detailled descriptions about towns, the residents etc.
At least this is the time schedule for DSA 5 in Germany.

There are more things so tell but hey, TDE 2.0 was announced last week. I#m sure you will find more information and updates on the official homepage and Facebook soon.



(Phew, not easy to explain something in English if you haven't wrote a longer text in English for a while, so sfmbe )

Quote from: Brad;845328That quickstart PDF is very pretty...

It is.

The system is neither here nor there, though. And the adventure... yeesh.

Quote from: The Butcher;845346It is.

The system is neither here nor there, though. And the adventure... yeesh.

It doesn't matter how much money an American publisher throws into an RPG game, the French and German ones look better, curbstomp us every time.

FFG's the only one that can compete.  Paizo and WotC look amazing, until you see another game and realize there's...something...missing from Pathfinder and D&D's art.

Quote from: The Butcher;845346The system is neither here nor there, though. And the adventure... yeesh.

It is the curse of a metaplot-driven setting with a long tradition of published adventures (way over 300 by now) that they must have adventures. The main target group is not only expecting them, the adventures and thus the access to be a part of the official metaplot is a major appeal of the system.  Thus, it is obligatory that any adventure is fully compatible to the canon (and older works from the time before the official history are usually ridiculed by the fanbase, because of "silly" concepts like crashed spaceships) and this strict adherence to the boundaries of canon doesn't leave much freedom when it comes to contents. Hell, I can even see the hyperfans read this and become annoyed about the idea of slavers in the central empire

Also, the format is similarly rigid: the players are not supposed to lose, or fail at any given scenario. The authors aren't quite that explicit about it, but pretty much all TDE adventures are based on the assumption that the gamemaster will fudge the dice, cheat and make sure that the outcome of the adventure will happen as planned and that this behaviour isn't patronizing and awful.

The sad thing is, Aventuria as a setting is actually... okay. It isn't particularly innovative, but the attention to detail and a certain playfulness and boy scout romanticism on the one hand and the ecclectic combination of all kinds of sub settings on the other hand made it a quite enjoyable setting. Unfortunately, the metaplot and pointless shovelware source books for a fan base that is more interested in reading about their setting or get read about it by a game master than playing in it (with a ctual free will and the need to make decisions that have consequences and so on) mostly ruined that.

Quote from: CRKrueger;845359It doesn't matter how much money an American publisher throws into an RPG game, the French and German ones look better, curbstomp us every time.

That really made me laugh. I don't know about French RPG products (if I had to guess, I would assume that access to a relative high number of well-trained artists are a by-product of the the French comic industry, but that might very well be a stereotype) but TDE is not representative of German RPGs at all (most don't have a significant budget for artwork, for instance), and the promo material for a new edition is not particularly representative of the system, either. Usually, only the (traditionally completely useless and fully replacable) basic core book will be printed in color, while the rest is black and white. Also, you can normally expect a lot of recycled artwork.

Quote from: Schattenwanderer;845341I haven't played D&D nor I know "Adventures in the East Mark" so I can't compare it with TDE.

East Mark is a clone comparable to red box Basic D&D, the version that Kiesow translated in 84.

QuoteTDE originates from a job to translate D&D into German back in the early '80s. Out of license problems the translation wasn't published and the translators, who had already experiences in P&P-Games, created TDE.

Kiesow's translation was published - but not by the publisher originally intended for. Kiesow sold the translation to the competitor that had won the bid for the D&D license.

QuoteSo, today TDE isn't a Dungeon Crawl like D&D (thats how I understand D&D).

Well, it's ironic that D&D is known for pure dungeoneering among DSA/TDE players, and not for "inventing" the preferred playstyle of TDE (via Dragonlance and Living City ren-faire play of the RPGA)...

Quotethe "living world", with it's different cultures and NPCs with a detailled background are the main reason to play TDE. It's fun to see how NPCs grow up and whats happen to them.

Translation: Aventuria has its own staple of Drizzt and Khelben and Elminster-style characters...

I mainly registered here to clear some things up Beagle said, because some of them would have been true if he would have said them 5 years ago... but really aren't anymore. On others I completely disagree.

Quote from: Beagle;845368It is the curse of a metaplot-driven setting with a long tradition of published adventures (way over 300 by now) that they must have adventures. The main target group is not only expecting them, the adventures and thus the access to be a part of the official metaplot is a major appeal of the system.

True for most players, but definitely not all of them. I've played with groups that didn't care about the metaplot at all, and mostly played adventures they made up themselves.
Note that there's also a bunch of official adventure-modules that are relatively independent of the metaplot and can be set in any timeframe.

Quote from: Beagle;845368Also, the format is similarly rigid: the players are not supposed to lose, or fail at any given scenario. The authors aren't quite that explicit about it, but pretty much all TDE adventures are based on the assumption that the gamemaster will fudge the dice, cheat and make sure that the outcome of the adventure will happen as planned and that this behaviour isn't patronizing and awful.

That's not true anymore. More and more adventures-modules in the last couple of years have been very modular, non-linear and open-ended, and many of them have been the most popular one's in recent years (Wildermark Campaign, Herren von Chorhop, Sturmgeboren, etc.). It's a trend, and it wouldn't suprise me to see many more of these modular adventures in the future.

Quote from: Beagle;845368The sad thing is, Aventuria as a setting is actually... okay. It isn't particularly innovative, but the attention to detail and a certain playfulness and boy scout romanticism on the one hand and the ecclectic combination of all kinds of sub settings on the other hand made it a quite enjoyable setting. Unfortunately, the metaplot and pointless shovelware source books for a fan base that is more interested in reading about their setting or get read about it by a game master than playing in it (with a ctual free will and the need to make decisions that have consequences and so on) mostly ruined that.

Many of the sourcebooks are actually pretty great. Many however aren't. Now last edition they made 14 regional source books, they're stepping it up to 20 or 24 (?) for the new edition, and Aventuria is a small continent. I wouldn't be suprised if quality suffers, but I guess we'll see. There's definitely enough information and detail in the 300+ adventures, 150+ novels and thousands of pages of established lore to fill these books. Then of course there's source-books on all kinds of other topics, from Mage-Academies (meh) to an actual historical setting taking place around 3-4 thousand years before the contemporary setting (Die Dunklen Zeiten - very great!).

And of course they'll have all of these again, and more, with some new information and some new content, but mostly old rehashed information.

That shouldn't disturb English players, however, since it's most likely their first contact with the system (apart from maybe the cRPGs).

Quote from: Beagle;845368That really made me laugh. I don't know about French RPG products (if I had to guess, I would assume that access to a relative high number of well-trained artists are a by-product of the the French comic industry, but that might very well be a stereotype) but TDE is not representative of German RPGs at all (most don't have a significant budget for artwork, for instance), and the promo material for a new edition is not particularly representative of the system, either. Usually, only the (traditionally completely useless and fully replacable) basic core book will be printed in color, while the rest is black and white. Also, you can normally expect a lot of recycled artwork.

The new Edition will be in color, I think all of it. At least all the rules, supplements and source-books. Not sure about the adventure-modules, but I'm sure many of them will be full-color as well.

They really stepped their game up in terms of illustration quality this time, judging by what I've seen on blogs and in the quickstarter. I am guessing though that they're just using more artwork per page in the quickstarter to make it more appealing, artwork that is then planned for actual releases which will then only have illustrations every 2-4 pages.  

We'll see.

Here's three short and suprisingly well produced English-dubbed videos about the appeal of The Dark Eye and it's history. You should watch them, they give a good first impression (even though the American dubbing voices are very bland and boring).

The Dark Eye - A European Game for Players Worldwide

The Dark Eye - An Ancient World, A New Edition


The Origins of The Dark Eye

They really seem to be serious about the English market this time.

Systems are ultimately meaningless. If they can sell the setting well, that will determine the game's success IMO. It may be an incredibly deep and rich setting but if like Tekumel, your average gamer doesn't have ready access to that world depth, it will just be "another fantasy game", competing with D&D and its hundreds of successors.

I'm interested, having known about Dark Eye for a long time, but with language being a barrier. But it was never the system that interested me. Honestly, if I end up running it, there's a 99% chance it will be using WHFRP 1e.

And thus, the apologists are crawling out of the woodwork...

Quote from: ulix;845460That's not true anymore. More and more adventures-modules in the last couple of years have been very modular, non-linear and open-ended, and many of them have been the most popular one's in recent years (Wildermark Campaign, Herren von Chorhop, Sturmgeboren, etc.). It's a trend, and it wouldn't suprise me to see many more of these modular adventures in the future.

Admittedly, I haven't played Sturmgeboren. It was published after I lost any interest in the celebrated mediocrity of contemporary TDE. Perhaps it is actually good, but I thought that even the usual fanboys dismissed it as a going through the motions pseudo-sandbox with no actual substance to the main plot (here: pioneers on the frontier, if I remember correctly).

Herren von Chorhop is 13 years old. Remind me, how exactly is an adventure that is older than the Nolan Batman movies or the conclusion of the Star Wars prequels by any means a representation of 'the last couple of years'? It is also not particularly open-ended. Almost all major events are completely scripted, as is the complete final and outcome of the campaign in its entirety. Just because the sequential order of these events isn't completely fixed doesn't mean it is not entirely railroading based adventure design. By creating the lie of freedom and that the player's decisions actually do matter It is even worse in many ways than an openly railroading adventure, that is at least honest about it. This adventure may include a deceptive promise of freedom, only to use invisible walls to restrict the players, and reshift the paths to lead back to exactly the same outcome.
Also every adventure that starts with the PCs being captured and enslaved as a scripted event is a reason to punch the author.

The Wildermark campaign is only seven years old, so better, but not exactly a recent product, either.
It is also complete shit, taking the actually pretty cool idea of a campaign endgame  (the players get the opportunity to become local warlords in a war-torn and lawless border region), and completely ruining it: the main appeal of the whole campaign is to rebuild and to create an own  power base, expand the own territory and bring back peace to the region. And the adventures offer absolutely fucking nothing to support this. Absolutely nothing on any economic aspects in a fief management campaign. Nothing whatsoever on any military aspects in a micro-setting centered around the PCs becoming local rulers and warlords . Instead of actual substance you have a lot of impotent hand-weaving and yet again a forgone conclusion. A mostly railroaded campaign where the time span between the fixed scenarios aren't scripted as well, ist still mostly a fucking railroaded campaign. So, the campaign is based on a good idea ruined by deliberate incompetence, which even tarnishes the idea itself by sheer association.
Also, adding evil demonic influences to the location because the chaos and brutalization of the post-war realm requires the most easy and mentally, morally  and strategically unchallenging solution to avoid any inconvenience is nothing but an insult to the player base.

To summarize: Anybody who thinks that these are open-ended, sandbox adventures, doesn't have a clue what makes a good sandbox for roleplaying purposes. Anybody who thinks that these adventures you mentioned are positive examples of adventure design is in dire need of an insight into other RPG systems or settings.

Quote from: ulix;845460Many of the sourcebooks are actually pretty great. Many however aren't. Now last edition they made 14 regional source books, they're stepping it up to 20 or 24 (?) for the new edition, and Aventuria is a small continent. I wouldn't be suprised if quality suffers, but I guess we'll see. There's definitely enough information and detail in the 300+ adventures, 150+ novels and thousands of pages of established lore to fill these books. Then of course there's source-books on all kinds of other topics, from Mage-Academies (meh) to an actual historical setting taking place around 3-4 thousand years before the contemporary setting (Die Dunklen Zeiten - very great!).

Many of the sourcebooks are utterly pointless and add nothing to the game at all, (except, of course, the occasional power creep). The problem is, that the target group of these books are a specific group of hyperfans and collectors who buy everything and have no actual notion of what is a good RPG product  (except the previously mentioned adherence to the metaplot) any more. We are talking about people who buy prayer books for fictional religions and setting-specific cookbooks, after all.
There are exceptions, of course, but the crap to decent products ratio has suffered significantly after Ulysses took over.

Quote from: TristramEvans;845462It may be an incredibly deep and rich setting but if like Tekumel, your average gamer doesn't have ready access to that world depth, it will just be "another fantasy game", competing with D&D and its hundreds of successors.

As far as I know, Tekumel is difficult to access because it is very much a completely unique and independent setting of its own with a very high weirdness ratio despite being internally consistent. TDE is not like that at all. The setting is  primarily a pastiche of pseudo-historical elements from different eras of time (normally reachin from early to late medieval influences, with a bit Age of Sail and Musketeering thrown in for good measure). There are some unique variations, but you can normally go through the various regions and explain the setting almost completely with comparions: "This is fantasy Scandinavia with its friendly IKEA-Vikings, to the south is dark age Britain and further to the South is fairy tale Britain and France, with some Robin Hood elements. Then, even further to the south there is a mixture of Elizabethan Britain and Louis XIV France, to the east is Spain, including Amsterdam for some reason." And so on. On a superficial level, the setting is quite generic.

Quote from: TristramEvans;845462I'm interested, having known about Dark Eye for a long time, but with language being a barrier. But it was never the system that interested me. Honestly, if I end up running it, there's a 99% chance it will be using WHFRP 1e.

WHFRP should work fine, probably better than the original rules (and its horrendous 3d20 skill tests). I am sometimes tempted to write some sort of TDE retroclone with particularly simple rules playing to the strengths of the older system, but I have literally better things to do.