Quote from: Kiero;600756Ironically, this particular premise is counter to that theme of Exalted, since they don't exist. Mortals with Enlightenment have (usually) had to claw their way up through grit, determination and skill. They weren't born with their power, it wasn't gifted by some external process/god that decided they were awesome enough, they took it.

It remains, however, a fundamentally unfair setting.

The most talented ordinary people in a WW game are still tremendously less special than the most basic pc-level Special People. The option to play mortals is an afterthought; the main focus of the game is on the Chosen Ones.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;600960The most talented ordinary people in a WW game are still tremendously less special than the most basic pc-level Special People. The option to play mortals is an afterthought; the main focus of the game is on the Chosen Ones.

Speak for your gaming table. We had a blast playing mortals in the oWoD.

Quote from: RPGPundit;600713If the premise didn't depend on certain people just being BORN special, it wouldn't be a white wolf game! What, you want a game where the great artistes are no better than the "unwashed masses" they revile? Or worse, one where the premise is that what you DO is what makes you special, not just what you are or pretentiously imagine you are??

RPGPundit

Hey Pundit, your jealousy is showing.

Seriously, Exalted is tradder than trad can be, aside from the stunt mechanic.

Back to Exalted, actually, anyone can become an Exalt, if they fulfill the right conditions at the right time, except for Sidereals and Dragon Blooded. Solars have to show great heroism, Lunars survive at all costs Alchemicals are made by their city states,Infernals are those who could have been heroic but are instead offered an infernal bargain, Abyssals are folks who are offered a devil's deal to the forces of Oblivion.

So, read and play the damned game before making a judgement.  The action isn't terribly different than what you'd find in a retroclone.

And - Exalts are chosen by the programming in the shards from the unwashed masses. The gods have nothing to do with the process.

EDIT - Sidereals are pre-destined to get their Exaltations, and Dragoblooded inherit theirs.  But DBs are kind of the heavies for a typical Solar game.  One of the reasons that DBs hate Solars is that any poltroon can do an act of great heroism and earn power that's greater than what they will ever have, without any breeding or lineage!

Quote from: RPGPundit;600960The most talented ordinary people in a WW game are still tremendously less special than the most basic pc-level Special People. The option to play mortals is an afterthought; the main focus of the game is on the Chosen Ones.

RPGPundit

Exalted's awful system actually functions with heroic mortal characters (which are covered in the corebook as a starting option). While the main focus is the "special ones", exceptional but otherwise mortal characters are supported in Exalted.

Quote from: RPGPundit;600960The most talented ordinary people in a WW game are still tremendously less special than the most basic pc-level Special People. The option to play mortals is an afterthought; the main focus of the game is on the Chosen Ones.

So? :confused:

Do you have a problem with an RPG that focusses on the PCs being demi-gods? Or that such an RPG also has rules for PCs being just mortals?

Quote from: Kaiu Keiichi;600964Hey Pundit, your jealousy is showing.

Seriously, Exalted is tradder than trad can be, aside from the stunt mechanic.

I have never said it wasn't.  Mechanically speaking, Exalted (like all WW's main games) is absolutely in every sense a regular RPG, and has nothing actually new in it to justify the pretentious claims that its a superior kind of RPG.

QuoteBack to Exalted, actually, anyone can become an Exalt, if they fulfill the right conditions at the right time, except for Sidereals and Dragon Blooded. Solars have to show great heroism, Lunars survive at all costs Alchemicals are made by their city states,Infernals are those who could have been heroic but are instead offered an infernal bargain, Abyssals are folks who are offered a devil's deal to the forces of Oblivion.

Except that not anyone can become an Exalt. You have to have the pre-existing condition of being the soul of an exalt to be one; obviously all the PCs are that, but someone else, a mere mortal, could be just as heroic and only end up dying a grisly death for their troubles.

QuoteEDIT - Sidereals are pre-destined to get their Exaltations, and Dragoblooded inherit theirs.  But DBs are kind of the heavies for a typical Solar game.  One of the reasons that DBs hate Solars is that any poltroon can do an act of great heroism and earn power that's greater than what they will ever have, without any breeding or lineage!

But again, ONLY because they're CHOSEN to be that.  That's why the dragon-blooded are desperately running around trying to hunt down the solars and lock up their "spirits" or whatever, so they can't just rebirth into some other mortal frame.

Or did I read the book wrong?

RPGPundit

Quote from: Skywalker;600976So? :confused:

Do you have a problem with an RPG that focusses on the PCs being demi-gods? Or that such an RPG also has rules for PCs being just mortals?

Not really either, in fact, on its own. Otherwise I wouldn't be a fan of Amber or have written Lords of Olympus.
Its when that's one feature of an overall mentality that appears throughout WW's product line, of this kind of pretentiousness of being the inherently special artist, and that you're playing a game that's meant to be a metaphor for your own tortured life of having your greatness persecuted and misunderstood (and said greatness being something you think you should be recognized for not by some kind of merit but just because you're a self-declared elite), and how much better you are than the "unwashed masses" that play other RPGs (again, this from WHITE WOLF's OWN WORDS, not just something I'm saying) for using the rpg medium to create some great work of art or literature, rather than just "roll-playing" (again, their words, not mine).

That's what pisses me off about them, that they're Swine. The particular way Exalted does it is just a symptom; its in some ways the funniest example of all WW's stable, because it clearly at the same time was made for all the WW-swine who were getting bored of playing angsty goth-vampires and were looking enviously over at those of us "unwashed masses" having fun playing epic D&D, but couldn't lower themselves to admit that's what they wanted to be doing too.  So Exalted is the equivalent of the "art film" that's actually just pornography with a thin veneer of pseudo-artistry, for people who think they're above looking at normal porn.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;601244Not really either, in fact, on its own. Otherwise I wouldn't be a fan of Amber or have written Lords of Olympus.

So, your post pretty much has nothing to do with this thread, right? Its just a threadcrap against WW.

Do you mind moving on now you got it out of your system?

Quote from: RPGPundit;601239Except that not anyone can become an Exalt. You have to have the pre-existing condition of being the soul of an exalt to be one; obviously all the PCs are that, but someone else, a mere mortal, could be just as heroic and only end up dying a grisly death for their troubles.

But again, ONLY because they're CHOSEN to be that.  That's why the dragon-blooded are desperately running around trying to hunt down the solars and lock up their "spirits" or whatever, so they can't just rebirth into some other mortal frame.

Or did I read the book wrong?

RPGPundit

You read the book wrong.

Exaltation is something that attaches itself to a mortal soul, in their original creation they were a divine power welded to that of an otherwise ordinary human. The gods couldn't act directly against their Primordial creators (a magical geas preventing them doing so), so they slapped a load of supernatural power on humans - something the Primordials didn't even notice they considered them so insignificant.

Exaltations seek out exceptional people, but those people aren't pre-ordained to Exalt at all. That's why it was possible to lock away the Solar Exaltations, because they are something separated from the soul in death and have to find a new carrier in order to be reborn.

In the case of Dragonblooded, it's slightly different because their specialness is hereditary. But even with the right genes it's still only the most exceptional who Exalt.

@Pundit:
You read the book wrong.

Most kinds of exalted "reincarnate" by glomming onto some guy who already has his own life. The different types of exaltations look for different things, but they all attach to people who are already out doing stuff.

Solar exaltations are looking for great deeds (or something). Maybe you're Admiral Nimitz, and your flagship has just come under fire: suddenly you're shinier and also have vague memories of being Admiral Nelson. But you're just as likely to be Seaman Schmuckatelli, desperately repelling a boarding action, and suddenly you're shinier and have Nelson's memories. Under no circumstances are you born shiny and grumpy.

There are two semi-exceptions: terrestrial exaltation is hereditary, but not guaranteed (like porphyria). They are the high-power mooks of the exalted world. Sidereals cheat. Nominally, they follow the same rules as solar exalted, but they arrange fate to put pre-groomed candidates in those situations.

Aside from those exceptions though, Exalted all start out as the unwashed masses.

But you aren't playing the ordinary people; you're playing the immortal solar chunks or whatever. So on top of everything else, you're basically otherkin...

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;601472But you aren't playing the ordinary people; you're playing the immortal solar chunks or whatever. So on top of everything else, you're basically otherkin...

RPGPundit

You're both. When you Exalt (which usually happens in adulthood), you don't become a different person, the shard doesn't overwrite your original life and memories with that of some dead historical person. But you also gain access to knowledge and memories of that historical person. You're an (exceptional) ordinary person with access to an immortal Exalted chunk.

Oh wow, Pundit didn't read Exalted and decided to hate it all the same. Who woulda thunk? :rolleyes:

There are lots of good reasons to dislike Exalted (I have a few of my own), and Pundejo has yet to produce one.

Really, he used to be better at this.

Quote from: RPGPundit;601472But you aren't playing the ordinary people; you're playing the immortal solar chunks or whatever. So on top of everything else, you're basically otherkin...

Unlike Greek demigods who have a divine parent and are actually not ordinary mortals, Exalted are mortals with a shard of divine essence placed in them. All the memories, personality and identity are that mortal remain after Exaltation. In fact, how that mortal from the unwashed masses deals with the divine power suddenly granted to them is one of the central questions posed by the RPG.

Quote from: RPGPundit;601472But you aren't playing the ordinary people; you're playing the immortal solar chunks or whatever. So on top of everything else, you're basically otherkin...

RPGPundit

To be fair,  if you're playing AD&D and your Elf Fighter/Magic-User dies and a Druid casts reincarnate and they come back as a Human you're playing an otherkin.