Quote from: Marleycat;596796Like the computers, logic and technology they served they only thought in binary paths that's why they killed their originators because actual reason and original thought be it reason, religious, or scientific never fit their paradigm.

"The great sin of the Technocracy is not science, or even murder -- it is oppression under one vision." (MtAsc 2e, page 7.)

Except its the one vision that doesn't involve most of humanity being serfs dying of dysentery in the service of a group of Special People getting to be Wonderful.

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Quote from: RPGPundit;597421Except its the one vision that doesn't involve most of humanity being serfs dying of dysentery in the service of a group of Special People getting to be Wonderful.

RPGPundit

Well, to be fair, a Technocracy PC campaign would be just as much Special People getting to be Wonderful from a secret agent or X-Files kind of angle.
But there would indeed be a lot less dysentery.

JG

Quote from: James Gillen;597529Well, to be fair, a Technocracy PC campaign would be just as much Special People getting to be Wonderful from a secret agent or X-Files kind of angle.
But there would indeed be a lot less dysentery.

That's kind of the point of the Ascension War, isn't it? That the well-meaning vision of the Order of Reason has been twisted into an oppressive nightmare supposedly as bad as the excesses of the Mythic Age, only with mortals placated into indifference with material comfort?

Sincerely not a fan of the "science evil" thing either (another point in favor of Awakening, which frames a "freedom vs. control" conflict in a much subtler manner, IMHO).

Quote from: RPGPundit;597421Except its the one vision that doesn't involve most of humanity being serfs dying of dysentery in the service of a group of Special People getting to be Wonderful.

RPGPundit

So, the cost of sanitation is room 101 and a boot slamming into your face, forever?

And the modern Technocracy is still all about Special People getting to be wonderful - they're all just rich westerners.

The Technocracy is great if you're rich. I've never seen a player playing a Technocrat on food stamps.

Quote from: Kaiu Keiichi;597681So, the cost of sanitation is room 101 and a boot slamming into your face, forever?

And the modern Technocracy is still all about Special People getting to be wonderful - they're all just rich westerners.

The Technocracy is great if you're rich. I've never seen a player playing a Technocrat on food stamps.

Well, that's the point I was making.
But the problem with Ascension is that both sides were trying to present it as either-or.  Well, except maybe the Etherites and Adepts, but who listens to them?

JG

I don't have the feeling that the setting considered science=evil to be axiomatic.  There was more than one tradition that tended to feel that way, sure, but that was just an in-game group.  I could roll with it or against it, whichever seemed more interesting.

Quote from: The Butcher;597549That's kind of the point of the Ascension War, isn't it? That the well-meaning vision of the Order of Reason has been twisted into an oppressive nightmare supposedly as bad as the excesses of the Mythic Age, only with mortals placated into indifference with material comfort?

Except its not. In our modern world we (average citizens of democratic western countries) have more freedoms than we had in almost any previous age, including a level of freedom to dissent and to not conform that would have appeared insane only a hundred years back.

But even if you ignore all that, even if the modern world was a dictatorship, wouldn't the fact that a very significant chunk of the population gets to live double the average lifespans they used to basically still make it better in every way than the mythical Hippie Bullshit Golden Age of herbal medicines that don't work?

And you'll note that I'm talking to you from the pov of maybe the only actual practicing magician on this thread... so you could say that part of what pisses me off so much about mage is that it plays into some of the dumbest things I've heard from real-life occult-people, particularly wiccans, who imagine that we'd all live in a never-ending Renaissance-Faire of pleasure if we didn't have all that pesky technology and western democracy.

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Quote from: RPGPundit;598153And you'll note that I'm talking to you from the pov of maybe the only actual practicing magician on this thread... so you could say that part of what pisses me off so much about mage is that it plays into some of the dumbest things I've heard from real-life occult-people, particularly wiccans, who imagine that we'd all live in a never-ending Renaissance-Faire of pleasure if we didn't have all that pesky technology and western democracy.

RPGPundit

Yeah, well the Hermetics were one of the more politically conservative Traditions.  

JG

Quote from: Alathon;597865I don't have the feeling that the setting considered science=evil to be axiomatic.  There was more than one tradition that tended to feel that way, sure, but that was just an in-game group.  I could roll with it or against it, whichever seemed more interesting.

That's more from Werewolf and Changeling.  Sure, those Ether and Virtual Adept guys must sure think science is evil!

The 9 Traditions are a diverse bunch.  The majority of them, even the skyclad witches and 3rd world shaman guys like having things like toilets. It's more that the Union has been murdering anyone who isn't western and capitalist for the past 500 years.

Quote from: RPGPundit;598153Except its not. In our modern world we (average citizens of democratic western countries) have more freedoms than we had in almost any previous age, including a level of freedom to dissent and to not conform that would have appeared insane only a hundred years back.

But even if you ignore all that, even if the modern world was a dictatorship, wouldn't the fact that a very significant chunk of the population gets to live double the average lifespans they used to basically still make it better in every way than the mythical Hippie Bullshit Golden Age of herbal medicines that don't work?

And you'll note that I'm talking to you from the pov of maybe the only actual practicing magician on this thread... so you could say that part of what pisses me off so much about mage is that it plays into some of the dumbest things I've heard from real-life occult-people, particularly wiccans, who imagine that we'd all live in a never-ending Renaissance-Faire of pleasure if we didn't have all that pesky technology and western democracy.

RPGPundit

Also, the Technocractic Union hates real democracy quite a bit, as most oligarchs and command capitalists do. Remember, the magical socialists (the Craftmasons) were murdered by the rest of the order of reason, lead by the High Guild (later the Syndicate) in the setting. Technocracts are appointed, not elected, and the government of their Mage faction resembles a very nasty bureacratic oligarchy.

In the Mage setting, you have to accept as axiomatic that what ancient cultures did worked, until steamrolled by the march of colonialism and conquest.  Remember, these are paradigm and culture wars.  The setting presumes that ancient and non-western cultures had full featured, functioning reality models that were steamrollered by warfare and conquest.  Ascension is essentially a leftist criticism of western culture and capitalism, dumbed down for an RPG.  If you're not on board with that, then Mage doesn't work (kinda like how a progressive would be irked at some of the assumptions of The Price of Freedom.) Not to say that western science hasn't produced some great stuff, but the great failing of the Union is their utter love for system and essential hunger for power.  Further, Sleepers are responsible for scientific developments in the setting, and the Union broadly influences the direction of scientific conversation in western culture, and occasionally kills ideas that threaten their hegemony.

Traditionalists, generally, are more than willing to acknowledge that their forebearers may some dickish moves, but no forerunner of any modern Tradition ever controlled the world Consensus the way that the Union does now.  Even the Order of Hermes was content to feud among themselves and stay in their towers, instead of dragging their opponents to places like MECHA and literally working them to death.  Sure, some of the Chorus precursors were douchey witch burners, but these guys were either absorbed into the New World Order (aka, the Gabrielites) or were purged when the Ascension War began.  Heading to the industrial cities of China or Mexico City puts proof paid that the Technocrat scheme works any better than any other reality schema, where the only Mages in the halls of power are Unionists.

When I run Mage games, I generally work to portray my Awakened people as ass busting craft people who are deadly serious about their work, and who deliberately avoid recruiting fluffy privileged alt-religion types.  I treat Awakening as neither easy nor trivial.  People who Awaken experience an ego shattering event, either over years of hard spiritual work or in the midst of a sudden experience. The power to alter reality is not gained by hobbyists. While there are Wiccans in my Verbena, for example, these are people who seek to syncretically put together the mythic truths of ancient spiritual practices and make them available to people as an alternative to Technocratic corporate cynicism.  Virtual Adepts and Etherites (who I play more as fringe scientists and cutting edge researchers as opposed to steampunk cosplayers) are passionate about empirical method and inquiry, which the Union in my game generally dislikes due to the lack of ability to mold or control objective facts.  Read the NWO Convention Book for 2E - while otherwise a pretty awful book, the Union regards the scientific corpus of Sleepers something to be negated and molded for political needs.  They're about control and power, not science.

Also, this may not be the subject of this thread, but I'd like to know more about your craft inclinations, Pundit.  Your stuff in the real world occult thread is really useful, and I plan to use that stuff in my upcoming Mage games.

Quote from: RPGPundit;598153And you'll note that I'm talking to you from the pov of maybe the only actual practicing magician on this thread...

I wish I could fool myself into believing you're talking about stage magic.

This is sad on so many levels.

Quote from: The Butcher;597549That's kind of the point of the Ascension War, isn't it? That the well-meaning vision of the Order of Reason has been twisted into an oppressive nightmare supposedly as bad as the excesses of the Mythic Age, only with mortals placated into indifference with material comfort?

Sincerely not a fan of the "science evil" thing either (another point in favor of Awakening, which frames a "freedom vs. control" conflict in a much subtler manner, IMHO).

Correct.  There are some Obrimos technology factions that completely embrace the fact that humanity not magic is the central force of progress.  And work to subtly intregrated positive magical truths into said scientific thought a kind of anti-technocrat technocrat or a Son of Ether using actual science not SCIENCE! .

Quote from: Kaiu Keiichi;598269Also, this may not be the subject of this thread, but I'd like to know more about your craft inclinations, Pundit.  Your stuff in the real world occult thread is really useful, and I plan to use that stuff in my upcoming Mage games.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "craft inclinations"?

RPGPundit

Quote from: The Butcher;598307I wish I could fool myself into believing you're talking about stage magic.

This is sad on so many levels.

First, if this is a surprise to you, you obviously haven't been reading my "real magic in RPGs" blog entries or its archived thread on the Pundit's forum.

Second, would you find it sad if someone said they were a practicing Tantric Buddhist? A practicing Raja Yogi? Practicing Chi Gong? Practicing Sufi? A practicing Hebrew Qabalist?

Because western magick, when you actually grok what its about, is not different from any of the above; its an esoteric practical philosophy for self-transformation.

I can certainly understand, however, if you would have a different idea of what its about based on the 90% of utter bullshit that passes for "magic" or "the occult" in pop culture today.

RPGPundit