TheRPGSite

Due to the smashing success of the Werewolf 20 Kickstarter, it seems all but a foregone conclusion that there will be a Mage 20 Kickstarter.  There seems to be a lot more fan interest in this than Werewolf.  Tell me your thoughts, and what you hope might be included.  It seems fairly evident that this will be a metaplot free edition, and a serious attempt to heal a fan community heavily schismed by edition wars.

The rules for Nephandi, Marauder and the like should be in there I think. The Horizon Realms and the like, too. Hedge Magic, meh. Not really needed IMO. I'm not even absolutely certain I want to invest in Mage 20 to be honest. My main game was always Vampire the Masquerade, and my MtA Revised hardcover is in great shape.

I'm still on the fence about Werewolf 20 btw.

Quote from: Benoist;594042The rules for Nephandi, Marauder and the like should be in there I think. The Horizon Realms and the like, too. Hedge Magic, meh. Not really needed IMO. I'm not even absolutely certain I want to invest in Mage 20 to be honest. My main game was always Vampire the Masquerade, and my MtA Revised hardcover is in great shape.

I'm still on the fence about Werewolf 20 btw.

I signed on for the $35 level which will get me the PDF.  I'm not gaming Werewolf hardcore, but I had a lot of fun with it back in the day and it is a pretty important WW milestone game.

Quote from: Kaiu Keiichi;594050I signed on for the $35 level which will get me the PDF.  I'm not gaming Werewolf hardcore, but I had a lot of fun with it back in the day and it is a pretty important WW milestone game.

No question about it. I really like Werewolf actually, and just like you, I had a blast playing games with it, especially when it came out, as opposed to years later with the Skinchangers, the Mokole and werethis and that and the like. I still have my original copy on my shelf.

The reason I'm on the fence is purely economic. If I'm in, I'm in for the print deluxe version, and I'm not sure I really want to dedicate the cash that would have to go to it ($150 US or so) rather than say, on various supplements or modules for games I'm actually currently using. If I don't get into the kickstarter, I could always get the POD version through DriveThru when all is said and done.

A "greatest hits" compilation of 2e material. Technocracy, Nephandi, etc.

I haven't really looked into V20, and I was only peripherally aware of W20.

I have a love-hate relationship with Mage: The Ascension because it's one of these games that I had an absolute blast playing and reading as a 18-year-old, but the premise kind of aged badly for me (or maybe I aged badly for the premise? :D). This, and my love of Mage: The Awakening (a game which touches mostly on the same themes, yet far more subtle), kind of kept me from thinking much about Ascension the last few years.

Off the top of my head, I'd like to see a "Mage: The Ascension Rules Cyclopedia." Every Tradition, Convention and Craft, Marauders and Nephandi, a comprehensive cosmology with denizens for each level of the Umbra and at least a few examples of far Realms, detailed rules for creating Talismans and for building and running Chantries, a decent list of Rotes to get the reality-twisting juices flowing, and art. Oodles of beautiful B&W art, including big Joshua Gabriel Timbrook portraits for each splat.

I don't think I'll chip in for the same reason I didn't get V20 (a hard copy is prohibitively expensive for us overseas), but I'll be watching with interest.

LOL!!! Just noticed the avatar and title, Butcher!! :D

(Check out area (95) here and following (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?p=592579#post592579) if you didn't get it)

I want Wraith20 and Changeling20! Go people, go forth and buy Werewolf and Mage so that I can get Changeling20!

An admission that the whole "Science, Technology and Western Civilization are EVIL!" thing was fucking retarded?

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;594410An admission that the whole "Science, Technology and Western Civilization are EVIL!" thing was fucking retarded?

Guide to the Technocracy doesn't quite fit the bill but it's at least halfway there, as it does a good job of presenting the Technocracy as (potentially) good guys.

But yeah, that's probably half my beef with Ascension right there.

Quote from: RPGPundit;594410An admission that the whole "Science, Technology and Western Civilization are EVIL!" thing was fucking retarded?

RPGPundit

Pundit, you're just coming in here to stir up shit.  That was more bleed over from Werewolf and Changeling.

Mage has always been a very leftist game, in that western capitalism is full of stinking shit on toast, but most of the Nine Traditions are archetypes that come from western classics, with the remainder made up of pastiches of mad scientists from literature and common cyberpunk tropes.  There was some bullshit to that degree, but that was ditched by the 2nd edition of the game. Mage at it's core is essentially Occupy Wall Street with magic powers.  The Invisibles is a good template for an Ascension game, but with human antagonists.

If you had played the game, you'd know that scientists are common PC options for members of most Traditions.  Mage was all Science=GOOD, Control and lust for power=BAD.  The Mage Revised Storyteller's guide makes that clear, specifically that the Technocracy is essentially anti-science, despite it's trappings, since it alters and falsifies the experimental data of sleeper scientists.

A PC in my Skype Mage game is a physicist who works at UC Berkely who's also a member of the Order of Hermes and a hardcore Thelemite.

What I want in Mage 20 -

Metaplot neutral setting, with sidebars for if people want the Avatar Storm and the like

A rote system similar to Awakening
A revised magick system that uses Arete+Sphere and a 10 die pool as a base, with fixed difficulty numbers and success based measures of results
Legacies, transported over from Awakening, that represent secret lodges, orders and cults within the wider traditions
Full rules for playable Technocracy PCs in the core
Lots of example rotes that describe and educate on game play
Good, evocative art
A strong chapter devoted to cosmology and the umbra, including many sample spirits
Concrete rules for constructing Sanctums and Horizon Realms
Simplied rules for Talisman construction taken from Forged In Dragon's Fire
Grimoires, from the same supplement
Full supporting merits, flaws and adversarial backgrounds
Basic rules for changing the local paradigm
A simple, concise explanation on what paradigm is, as it means in the game
Advice for players and GMs on magick style

... and I'm sure I can think of a few more, give me time.

Quote from: RPGPundit;594410An admission that the whole "Science, Technology and Western Civilization are EVIL!" thing was fucking retarded?

RPGPundit

This.
Not to mention an admission that most people around the world are still more familiar with traditional religion (including what could be called 'witchcraft') than the workings of technology, so "it's vulgar because of the Consensus" is bogus.

JG

Quote from: Kaiu Keiichi;594426Mage has always been a very leftist game, in that western capitalism is full of stinking shit on toast, but most of the Nine Traditions are archetypes that come from western classics, with the remainder made up of pastiches of mad scientists from literature and common cyberpunk tropes.  There was some bullshit to that degree, but that was ditched by the 2nd edition of the game. Mage at it's core is essentially Occupy Wall Street with magic powers.  The Invisibles is a good template for an Ascension game, but with human antagonists.

One could make this argument by the time of Players' Guide to the Technocracy, which was itself a reflection of the fact that players' own personal experience with the real world, not to mention their investigation of the Traditions versus the Conventions, meant that White Wolf needed to present the setting with a little more nuance.

The first few Tradition and Convention books were not very good at nuance.

JG

I have what I want out of Mage via MtAw. So I guess what I would like to see is some internal consistensence? It's supposed to be a game not a hackneyed take on Philosophy 101. It kind of worked for me when I was foolish young lady in her early 20's but it's good for nothing to me, as a woman definitely NOT in her 20's. I moved on to Philosophy 201/301 years ago and MtAs needs to do the same.  Imperial Mysteries for example is high level Mage done right. Mage20 needs to steal several things from his aqua sister for me to seriously care.

Quote from: Kaiu Keiichi;594426Pundit, you're just coming in here to stir up shit.  That was more bleed over from Werewolf and Changeling.

Mage has always been a very leftist game, in that western capitalism is full of stinking shit on toast, but most of the Nine Traditions are archetypes that come from western classics, with the remainder made up of pastiches of mad scientists from literature and common cyberpunk tropes.  There was some bullshit to that degree, but that was ditched by the 2nd edition of the game. Mage at it's core is essentially Occupy Wall Street with magic powers.  The Invisibles is a good template for an Ascension game, but with human antagonists.

If you had played the game, you'd know that scientists are common PC options for members of most Traditions.  Mage was all Science=GOOD, Control and lust for power=BAD.  The Mage Revised Storyteller's guide makes that clear, specifically that the Technocracy is essentially anti-science, despite it's trappings, since it alters and falsifies the experimental data of sleeper scientists.

A PC in my Skype Mage game is a physicist who works at UC Berkely who's also a member of the Order of Hermes and a hardcore Thelemite.

The problem with Mage is that it posits a setting where the good guys are all inherently Special People who we're supposed to sympathize with because it would be so much better if we could go back to the time when the plebs would all die from common infections and lack of clean running water so that these Special People would be recognized as being Special.

That's a very particular kind of "leftist" thinking there...

RPGPundit

Quote from: Kaiu Keiichi;594426Mage at it's core is essentially Occupy Wall Street with magic powers.

I have no idea what OWS would have done with magical powers. Anyway Mage never struck me as Magepunk, there was always a strong sense of dissociation from the mundane world, so its not really justifiable to assign a place on the political spectrum to it, especially with reference to an event which occurred long after the major publications.

Quote from: RPGPundit;594708The problem with Mage is that it posits a setting where the good guys are all inherently Special People who we're supposed to sympathize with because it would be so much better if we could go back to the time when the plebs would all die from common infections and lack of clean running water so that these Special People would be recognized as being Special.

That's a very particular kind of "leftist" thinking there...

RPGPundit

The Ascension mentioned in the title of the game is about ascending all of humanity, the Technicracy want all mankind asleep because it will be "safer" while the Traditions want all of humanity to awaken and ascend.

Quote from: The Traveller;594714I have no idea what OWS would have done with magical powers.

That was the problem with Occupy Wall Street, neither did they.  :p

JG

Quote from: KrakaJak;594743The Ascension mentioned in the title of the game is about ascending all of humanity, the Technicracy want all mankind asleep because it will be "safer" while the Traditions want all of humanity to awaken and ascend.

Well, put more charitably, the Technocracy, from its days as the Order of Reason, had the eminently reasonable view that it's hard for individual humans to Ascend if (to quote Python) they've got shit all over 'em.  So they focused largely on improving material conditions.  Of course that required control of those conditions and that led to suppressing anything that could suppress that control, regardless of the consequences.

In some respect, the Technocratic viewpoint resembles both the Marxist materialist dialectic and the Leninist approach to enforcing that dialectic in politics.  Which is ironic given both Pundit and KK's comments, but no more so than the fact that the Traditions, if "leftist", represent the tree-hugging, shamanist, Wiccan, Scientific Utopian types who would never be allowed an audience in a Leninist-style socialism. ;)

JG

Quote from: James Gillen;594494This.
Not to mention an admission that most people around the world are still more familiar with traditional religion (including what could be called 'witchcraft') than the workings of technology, so "it's vulgar because of the Consensus" is bogus.

JG

As is your point. There's sidebars about the local consensus and how it works.  The people in Manila who believe in traditional witchcraft also believe in the fact that TVs and cars work.

See, in order for Ascension to work, you have to be on board with the idea of subjective, consensus reality.  If you're not, then Ascension isn't for you.

I for one love it.  It's a much different direction and take on boring old list-based magic we find in other modern supernatural RPGs.

Quote from: James Gillen;594786Well, put more charitably, the Technocracy, from its days as the Order of Reason, had the eminently reasonable view that it's hard for individual humans to Ascend if (to quote Python) they've got shit all over 'em.  So they focused largely on improving material conditions.  Of course that required control of those conditions and that led to suppressing anything that could suppress that control, regardless of the consequences.

In some respect, the Technocratic viewpoint resembles both the Marxist materialist dialectic and the Leninist approach to enforcing that dialectic in politics.  Which is ironic given both Pundit and KK's comments, but no more so than the fact that the Traditions, if "leftist", represent the tree-hugging, shamanist, Wiccan, Scientific Utopian types who would never be allowed an audience in a Leninist-style socialism. ;)

JG

Lenin lied - he was never a true socialist or Marxist, since he viciously spoke out against workers having direct control of the means of production, being a vanguard (aka, a fake) socialist.

Mage actually makes that clear, as one group that was behind the Reasoner rebellion were a magickal group called the Craftmasons, who were tied to labor guilds and proto-socialist groups like The Diggers. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diggers)  But just as the Order of Reason was starting to see success after things like the Battle of Mistridge, they were purged by the High Guild, which later became The Syndicate.

The modern Technocracy enthusiastically backs modern capitalism.  There was also enthusiasm for soviet style command capitalism (which was socialism in name only) but a more ferocious and selfish form was embraced.  Beyond all else, the Technocracy loves elites, power and systems, and especially loves their being folks to oppress. The Traditions, as a diverse, messy group, resembles the world wide Left in it's often contradictory impulses and tendencies, and has no unified agenda.

So, essentially, what became the Technocracy was hijacked from within by merchantilists  and proto-capitalists.

Quote from: Kaiu Keiichi;594848Lenin lied - he was never a true socialist or Marxist, since he viciously spoke out against workers having direct control of the means of production, being a vanguard (aka, a fake) socialist.

Mage actually makes that clear, as one group that was behind the Reasoner rebellion were a magickal group called the Craftmasons, who were tied to labor guilds and proto-socialist groups like The Diggers. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diggers)  But just as the Order of Reason was starting to see success after things like the Battle of Mistridge, they were purged by the High Guild, which later became The Syndicate.

The modern Technocracy enthusiastically backs modern capitalism.  There was also enthusiasm for soviet style command capitalism (which was socialism in name only) but a more ferocious and selfish form was embraced.  Beyond all else, the Technocracy loves elites, power and systems, and especially loves their being folks to oppress. The Traditions, as a diverse, messy group, resembles the world wide Left in it's often contradictory impulses and tendencies, and has no unified agenda.

So, essentially, what became the Technocracy was hijacked from within by merchantilists  and proto-capitalists.

Just fucking once can you idiots just play the fucking game and not try to shoehorn it into your own halfassed political factioneering. Its not that fucking hard, lots of people do it all the time. Give it a try, you might be pleasantly surprised at how life looks when you aren't peering out from beneath an imaginary soapbox mumbling imprecations. Fucking entryist prick.

Quote from: The Traveller;594855Just fucking once can you idiots just play the fucking game and not try to shoehorn it into your own halfassed political factioneering. Its not that fucking hard, lots of people do it all the time. Give it a try, you might be pleasantly surprised at how life looks when you aren't peering out from beneath an imaginary soapbox mumbling imprecations. Fucking entryist prick.

Overridden.  Mage is an inherently political game, and, unlike say a dungeon adventure game set in an imaginary world with orcs and hobbits, Mage touches on stuff which matters right now and isn't escapist.  Further, Mage doesn't hide what it is, and neither do I.  If you don't like it and it offends your know nothing attitude towards media, you're free to not sit down at my gaming table. I know that my gaming in a certain style offends your sensibilities, but you have no say in how I game or have fun.

Sorry, but you are not the fun police.  You don't get to say that people are having fun wrong.

We are fortunate I suppose to have this opportunity to glimpse into the mind of a thoroughly intellectually sock puppeted ideolot.

Quote from: Kaiu Keiichi;594873Overridden.  

What? What the hell does this even mean? You're mentally overriding the discussion, you're overruling it in your private and personal internal court? What?

Quote from: Kaiu Keiichi;594873Mage is an inherently political game, and, unlike say a dungeon adventure game set in an imaginary world with orcs and hobbits, Mage touches on stuff which matters right now and isn't escapist.

Okay, so a game about a hidden world of magicians under the facade of normality isn't escapist. I see.

Its all clear now.

Quote from: Kaiu Keiichi;594873Further, Mage doesn't hide what it is, and neither do I.  

Which is, by your strange and dim lights, a game where communists get to fight the evil capitalists.

GM: "This is a game where you get to play magicians and wizards in the modern day, but you can't talk about it, a bit like Buffy or the Dresden Files."

Players: "Epic! Lets get to it!"

Kaiu Keiichi: "This is a game about communism's struggle and inevitable rise and the downfall of the capitalist overlords!"

All: "Piss off you clammy palmed weasel."

Quote from: Kaiu Keiichi;594873If you don't like it and it offends your know nothing attitude towards media

What does the media have to do with what I just said? For fucks sake, pull a few more random words out of your arse, its entertaining, like something you'd see at a circus.

Quote from: Kaiu Keiichi;594873I know that my gaming in a certain style offends your sensibilities, but you have no say in how I game or have fun.

Sorry, but you are not the fun police.  You don't get to say that people are having fun wrong.

Play however the fuck you want to komrade, but don't claim that a game is set up to mimic your political preferences.

If that's not what you're claiming do clarify it for us.

*sigh* Just buy some Mage 20 already, I'm sick of waiting for Wraith 20 and Changeling 20...
:hand:

All WW games are essentially escapist to the max: they're always about Inherently Special people who are different from everyone else, and truly wonderful while everyone else sucks ass, and yet they are persecuted and reviled by the unwashed masses because of their specialness, instead of being recognized and allowed to run the world like they think they should.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;595007All WW games are essentially escapist to the max:

And what pray tell is this magical non-escapist RPG that you're playing? Grey Ranks? :rolleyes:

Quote from: RPGPundit;595007they're always about Inherently Special people who are different from everyone else, and truly wonderful while everyone else sucks ass, and yet they are persecuted and reviled by the unwashed masses because of their specialness, instead of being recognized and allowed to run the world like they think they should.

RPGPundit

There's not a single truthful word in the above quote. You are a shameless liar. Your hatred for White Wolf and depths you're willing to go to discredit it are nothing short of pathological.

Quote from: The Butcher;595031There's not a single truthful word in the above quote. You are a shameless liar. Your hatred for White Wolf and depths you're willing to go to discredit it are nothing short of pathological.

I like the older WW games, and I have to admit Pundit is mostly right about them. Look at Mage:

You're a powerful magic-user, but you can't actually cast any spells if normals are around, or you will suffer horrible backlash. Kind of kills the point of being a mage.

Quote from: Kaiu Keiichi;594846As is your point. There's sidebars about the local consensus and how it works.  The people in Manila who believe in traditional witchcraft also believe in the fact that TVs and cars work.

See, in order for Ascension to work, you have to be on board with the idea of subjective, consensus reality.  If you're not, then Ascension isn't for you.

I for one love it.  It's a much different direction and take on boring old list-based magic we find in other modern supernatural RPGs.

I liked it, but it made suspension of belief more than a little difficult, if you thought about it much.  As in, at all.  And in a game about philosophy and thinking, that's a bit of a flaw.

JG

Quote from: Kaiu Keiichi;594848Lenin lied - he was never a true socialist or Marxist, since he viciously spoke out against workers having direct control of the means of production, being a vanguard (aka, a fake) socialist.

Yet again with the "Lenin wasn't a REAL socialist" defense.  This is just as accurate as saying Torquemada wasn't a REAL Catholic.

JG

Quote from: danbuter;595061I like the older WW games, and I have to admit Pundit is mostly right about them. Look at Mage:

You're a powerful magic-user, but you can't actually cast any spells if normals are around, or you will suffer horrible backlash. Kind of kills the point of being a mage.

Which is not the same as Pundit said. Pundit is parroting a stereotype that's about as accurate as "D&D is all about hack-and-slash roll-play" or "WFRP is about playing retarded one-armed peasants covered in shit".

And yeah, Ascension's take on Paradox was a tad harsher than the ideal, but Mage without Paradox would be about as fun as CoC without Sanity.

Quote from: The Butcher;595088Which is not the same as Pundit said. Pundit is parroting a stereotype that's about as accurate as "D&D is all about hack-and-slash roll-play" or "WFRP is about playing retarded one-armed peasants covered in shit".

The problem being that both of those statements, like Pundit's, have at least some truth to them.  ;)

JG

Quote from: James Gillen;595072Yet again with the "Lenin wasn't a REAL socialist" defense.  This is just as accurate as saying Torquemada wasn't a REAL Catholic.

JG

Hmm, KK is claiming Lenin did not support workers controlling the means of production and that makes him not a "real socialist".  Valid arguments include...

• Showing how Lenin did support workers controlling the means of production.
• Showing how a "real Socialist" can indeed support some elite controlling the means of production.
• Showing how there can be no "real Socialist" because it is a Utopian ideal that can't happen.
• Pretty much anything but "Oh this shit again that I'm dismissing despite being given a clear point to refute."

Just sayin' :D

Quote from: The ButcherThere's not a single truthful word in the above quote.

Hmm, lets look at this:

Quote from: RPGPundit;595007they're always about Inherently Special people who are different from everyone else

Umm, sorry bro, this is 100% true.  Vampires, Werewolves, Demon, Faeries, Mummies, even the mundanes can have Faith, Hedge Magic whatever.  Of course you can make this claim about a lot of games.

Quote from: RPGPundit;595007and truly wonderful while everyone else sucks ass

Ayup, it's really a cliche of all WoD that no matter how fucked up a "Book Race" is, they're doing it right compared to the other lines.

Quote from: RPGPundit;595007and yet they are persecuted and reviled by the unwashed masses because of their specialness

In which WoD book exactly does the signature species not hide from the rest of humanity again?

Quote from: RPGPundit;595007instead of being recognized and allowed to run the world like they think they should.

V, W, M this is obviously true, less so in the other ones.

Dunno man, with Gillen on this one, Pundit's right.

Yeah it's a stereotype, and it's one that is basically true.  The question you should be asking is, "Ok, so what?"

Quote from: CRKrueger;595524Yeah it's a stereotype, and it's one that is basically true.  The question you should be asking is, "Ok, so what?"

Nope.

Pundit's post suggests that the games revolve entirely around these elements, like the other stereotypes I've mentioned.

Quote from: The Butcher;595563Nope.

Pundit's post suggests that the games revolve entirely around these elements, like the other stereotypes I've mentioned.

But the best way to combat that isn't to deny the stereotype, which has a large chunk of truth behind it, that's why it sticks and persists.  Even you're not saying the stereotype is incorrect, it's the inference that that's all WoD has to offer that you object to.

Denying the stereotype is a falsehood, which doesn't help your side any.  Arguing that the stereotype isn't all that can be done with oWoD or even that despite the stereotype there's so much more, is the way to really combat it.

Quote from: CRKrueger;595524Umm, sorry bro, this is 100% true.  Vampires, Werewolves, Demon, Faeries, Mummies, even the mundanes can have Faith, Hedge Magic whatever.  Of course you can make this claim about a lot of games.

And of course, while the PCs in the oWoD games were often "born special" in some fashion, any nWoD mortal may technically gain almost any major template. Mummies and Prometheans are the two exceptions: the former because they were all created in the ancient times, the latter because they aren't the people whose corpses were used for their raw materials. Ending up turned into a vampire or a changeling isn't exactly some shining personal achievement, and obviously it could happen to anyone.

Being "wonderful" in comparison to others shows up less in the newer setting, as well. Prommie PCs, most obviously, are all about trying to achieve a normal human existence instead of remaining things that shouldn't be. Changelings commonly idolize mundane life and aren't described as "better" than ordinary folks, only different. And vampires are parasites who ultimately aren't good for anyone or anything.

(The new changelings also don't hide so much from humanity as from Faerie, and their society as a whole doesn't subscribe to any formal code of "masquerade". While they understand the potential risks of a xenophobic backlash and tend to lie low so as not to attract the attention of the Fae, the topic of going public does come up from time to time. They aren't out to rule the world, either.)

Quote from: The Butcher;595031And what pray tell is this magical non-escapist RPG that you're playing? Grey Ranks? :rolleyes:

Its a different sort of escapism from, say, D&D.

QuoteThere's not a single truthful word in the above quote. You are a shameless liar. Your hatred for White Wolf and depths you're willing to go to discredit it are nothing short of pathological.

Really? In fact, my description fits the bill for Vampire, Werewolf, Mage, and even Exalted.  All of them, despite certain differences, involve the players portraying special magical people who have to remain apart from normal society and are persecuted or hunted by those who don't understand them.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;595923In fact, my description fits the bill for Vampire, Werewolf, Mage, and even Exalted.  All of them, despite certain differences, involve the players portraying special magical people who have to remain apart from normal society and are persecuted or hunted by those who don't understand them.

Mages, both old and new, are more typically persecuted by other mages (the Technocracy in the first case, the Seers or Banishers in the second), though. And I get the impression that at least these days Exalted focuses far more on the PCs' role as world leaders than on scampering away from the Wyld Hunt. (Not to mention that you can always play the Dragon-Blooded instead.)

Quote from: GrimGent;595950Mages, both old and new, are more typically persecuted by other mages (the Technocracy in the first case, the Seers or Banishers in the second), though. And I get the impression that at least these days Exalted focuses far more on the PCs' role as world leaders than on scampering away from the Wyld Hunt. (Not to mention that you can always play the Dragon-Blooded instead.)

In MtAw you're spot on. Mages big enemies are other mages especially given Ascencion War stuff is tier 5 archmage territory. On the other hand mages are demostrabley special in some cases given with mastery in Mind/Life it's easy to have all 5's in every stat and any skill you please paradox free and even higher if you're subtle about it.

Just update revised. It got rid of the fucking idiocy in 2e, and made it an actual WoD game

Quote from: Randaconda;596109Just update revised. It got rid of the fucking idiocy in 2e, and made it an actual WoD game

Hence the issue.  I am all in until the fucked bullshit of the Avatar Storm and "who cares idiotic bullshit" winning.  Stasis winning? Fuck that, fuck Jess, and fuck Revised. It's so nice to be home I missed this place. :)

You want Mage as a WoD game? It's done and it's called Mage the Awakening.  That sir, is a game that has mages playing fair given it erased the bullshit Entropy sphere, lowered the power level without ritual to level 4 MtAs except in specific cases. Gave you signature spells, rotes, personal rotes, improv magic that's completely flexible up to risk you want to take, legacies that give you knacks paradox free, the ability to use magic, actual full on magic anytime as long as you use strategies like a chess player. Without bullshit gas mains blowing up as you fireball some bastard.  Better yet. Mages are nasty assassination experts no paradox even.

And introduced the Wisdom mechanic. Don't like Wisdom? Cry me a river because fair is fair so deal with it. With ultimate power comes ultimate corruption, pretty simple. And rituals are free rein as is overchanneling and if the GM allows sympathetic Arcana. Oh yeah, human sacrifice rocks the house, magically that is.:)

Fun part is, archmastery isn't a lie you just have to search and study a bit.

Quote from: Randaconda;596109Just update revised. It got rid of the fucking idiocy in 2e, and made it an actual WoD game

Well, since 2e is the definitive Mage for me, it really wouldn't be the same without dinosaurs in the Hollow Earth and spaceships around the moons of Jupiter. I seriously doubt I'm alone in that: the most probable course for WW is to rewind the metaplot back to the time before the Avatar Storm and include it as an option for the fans of Revised.

Quote from: GrimGent;596222Well, since 2e is the definitive Mage for me, it really wouldn't be the same without dinosaurs in the Hollow Earth and spaceships around the moons of Jupiter. I seriously doubt I'm alone in that: the most probable course for WW is to rewind the metaplot back to the time before the Avatar Storm and include it as an option for the fans of Revised.

But those kind of things are what I hate the most!

Quote from: Marleycat;596171Hence the issue.  I am all in until the fucked bullshit of the Avatar Storm and "who cares idiotic bullshit" winning.  Stasis winning? Fuck that, fuck Jess, and fuck Revised. It's so nice to be home I missed this place. :)

You want Mage as a WoD game? It's done and it's called Mage the Awakening.  That sir, is a game that has mages playing fair given it erased the bullshit Entropy sphere, lowered the power level without ritual to level 4 MtAs except in specific cases. Gave you signature spells, rotes, personal rotes, improv magic that's completely flexible up to risk you want to take, legacies that give you knacks paradox free, the ability to use magic, actual full on magic anytime as long as you use strategies like a chess player. Without bullshit gas mains blowing up as you fireball some bastard.  Better yet. Mages are nasty assassination experts no paradox even.

And introduced the Wisdom mechanic. Don't like Wisdom? Cry me a river because fair is fair so deal with it. With ultimate power comes ultimate corruption, pretty simple. And rituals are free rein as is overchanneling and if the GM allows sympathetic Arcana. Oh yeah, human sacrifice rocks the house, magically that is.:)

Fun part is, archmastery isn't a lie you just have to search and study a bit.

And? I like the Avatar Storm, and I like the Weaver winning.

Quote from: Randaconda;596288And? I like the Avatar Storm, and I like the Weaver winning.

Quote from: Randaconda;596287But those kind of things are what I hate the most!

More power to you, but for me that's another reason for preferring the nWoD to the oWoD. :D

(even though I am a huge fan of the classsics)

Its true that in Mage, like in Vampire for that matter, the main antagonists aren't "regular humans"; they're other powerful beings that nevertheless in some way symbolically represent the Status Quo; they represent "conformity" to regular society, that the heroic bohemians that are the PCs feel so oppressed by.  It doesn't change the fact that metaphorically, the "enemy" of all the major WW games is meant to represent the teacher who didn't think your crappy adolescent poetry was profound, the girl who thought your emo-music mix-tape sucked, and the jock who made fun of your Hot Topic clothes.

RPGPundit

This analogy is about as accurate as the ever-popular D&D equivalent, "orcs are really racial minorities". Which is to say, fucking bullshit.

But thank you for offering us all a snapshot of your high school years.

Quote from: The Butcher;596311More power to you, but for me that's another reason for preferring the nWoD to the oWoD. :D

(even though I am a huge fan of the classsics)

Yessir Butcher! You and I are of similar mind about Mage it seems. But seriously don't be so hard on Pundit he almost has it seriously. Mage the Ascension is EXACTLY as he says hence why I don't like it. Mage the Awakening is about Magic in a world viewed through a mirror through a lens viewed darkly. As is the NWOD. :)

Quote from: RPGPundit;596650Its true that in Mage, like in Vampire for that matter, the main antagonists aren't "regular humans"; they're other powerful beings that nevertheless in some way symbolically represent the Status Quo; they represent "conformity" to regular society, that the heroic bohemians that are the PCs feel so oppressed by.  It doesn't change the fact that metaphorically, the "enemy" of all the major WW games is meant to represent the teacher who didn't think your crappy adolescent poetry was profound, the girl who thought your emo-music mix-tape sucked, and the jock who made fun of your Hot Topic clothes.

RPGPundit

More like "the enemy is US."

JG

Quote from: GrimGent;596222Well, since 2e is the definitive Mage for me, it really wouldn't be the same without dinosaurs in the Hollow Earth and spaceships around the moons of Jupiter. I seriously doubt I'm alone in that: the most probable course for WW is to rewind the metaplot back to the time before the Avatar Storm and include it as an option for the fans of Revised.

Correct.

Quote from: James Gillen;596782More like "the enemy is US."

JG

Again correct.  Ever notice in MtAw your real opponents are other mages? Be they Seer, Banisher, Path or Scelesti? Just pointing it out. :)

For example any Obrimos regardless of specialty could ash any supernatural or human where they stand with no problem for little to no paradox and worse yet Mastigos do it even easier with no paradox ever. Now given a decent magical tradition and legacy ....ouchie mama!  Imagine a Knight Templar magical tradition combined with an Obrimos path and an Adamanite Arrow specialty or worse yet an assassin via a Magistos?  I suppose if you prefer James.Bond I would suggest a Moros to do the SoE thing  or an Obrimos with Forces first and a tech/modern faction. :)

Quote from: Marleycat;596787Again correct.  Ever notice in MtAw your real opponents are other mages? Be they Seer, Banisher, Path or Scelesti? Just pointing it out. :)

For example any Obrimos regardless of specialty could ash any supernatural or human where they stand with no problem for little to no paradox and worse yet Mastigos do it even easier with no paradox ever. Now given a decent magical tradition and legacy ....ouchie mama!

And in VAMPIRE (both versions) it's even worse.  In MAGE and usually in WEREWOLF, the enemy is a hostile faction.  In VAMPIRE the main problem is trying to survive your own peers and superiors. ;)

JG

Quote from: James Gillen;596790And in VAMPIRE (both versions) it's even worse.  In MAGE and usually in WEREWOLF, the enemy is a hostile faction.  In VAMPIRE the main problem is trying to survive your own peers and superiors. ;)

JG

True but they do a great job of that in the OWoD except for Ascension given even the writers admit they fucked the pooch and GttT was COMPLETELY misunderstood even to this day!

What people never understood is that the Technocracy was like the gatekeepers in Kult or the Matrix.  Inhuman, selfish and parents gone wrong.  Thinking they knew best.  When the EXACT opposite was the truth. Like the computers, logic and technology they served they only thought in binary paths that's why they killed their originators because actual reason and original thought be it reason, religious, or scientific never fit their paradigm.

Thank God the NWoD erased that silliness.  And allowed mages to embrace technology like any normal human. And made clear as crystal it's all about control vs. freedom.

Quote from: Marleycat;596793True but they do a great job of that in the OWoD except for Ascension given even the writers admit they fucked the pooch and GttT was COMPLETELY misunderstood even to this day!

Everyone misunderstood?

What did they intend vs. what everyone took away from the book?

Quote from: CRKrueger;596798Everyone misunderstood?

What did they intend vs. what everyone took away from the book?

They intended to give evil humanity but the takeaway was they weren't evil, just misunderstood. Just ask Jess among others given I gave my MtAs books away in disgust after that book.  There is a line over stupidity and that book along with GttT crossed it for half the fanbase to be nice. Maybe they will get it right this time.  My suggustion? Sidebars, lots of them and greyboxing big time Just a hint.:)

Back on TBP I wasn't the only one that told Jess to fuck off right to his/her face though I always thought she/he was female but its been years since those flaewars, and I haven't changed my view an inch to this day. Mage Revised is in the same category as Dnd 4th for me. Kindling for a decent fire. Revised was a fucked up sop to whining Vampire players end of story.

Quote from: Marleycat;596781Yessir Butcher! You and I are of similar mind about Mage it seems. But seriously don't be so hard on Pundit he almost has it seriously. Mage the Ascension is EXACTLY as he says hence why I don't like it. Mage the Awakening is about Magic in a world viewed through a mirror through a lens viewed darkly. As is the NWOD. :)

Mage does indeed have the worse case of "fight the Man!" in the oWoD, which, combined with the solipsistic premise, made it pretentious as heck. I still had a good time with it, though.

Werewolf is a close second but it's so frankly caricatural that it feels more like an AD2000 comic, with gore and splatter and the over-the-top depraved villainy of Pentex and the Fomori and the Black Spiral Dancers, and we had an absolute blast with it.

Again, the 1e oWoD took the "Punk" in "Gothic-Punk" seriously. It took "Gothic" surprisingly seriously too, at least Vampire, Werewolf and Wraith.

Quote from: CRKrueger;596798Everyone misunderstood?

What did they intend vs. what everyone took away from the book?

That having indoor plumbing and electric lighting and (horrors) bourgeois capitalism wasn't inherently dehumanizing.

JG

Quote from: Marleycat;596796Like the computers, logic and technology they served they only thought in binary paths that's why they killed their originators because actual reason and original thought be it reason, religious, or scientific never fit their paradigm.

"The great sin of the Technocracy is not science, or even murder -- it is oppression under one vision." (MtAsc 2e, page 7.)

Except its the one vision that doesn't involve most of humanity being serfs dying of dysentery in the service of a group of Special People getting to be Wonderful.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;597421Except its the one vision that doesn't involve most of humanity being serfs dying of dysentery in the service of a group of Special People getting to be Wonderful.

RPGPundit

Well, to be fair, a Technocracy PC campaign would be just as much Special People getting to be Wonderful from a secret agent or X-Files kind of angle.
But there would indeed be a lot less dysentery.

JG

Quote from: James Gillen;597529Well, to be fair, a Technocracy PC campaign would be just as much Special People getting to be Wonderful from a secret agent or X-Files kind of angle.
But there would indeed be a lot less dysentery.

That's kind of the point of the Ascension War, isn't it? That the well-meaning vision of the Order of Reason has been twisted into an oppressive nightmare supposedly as bad as the excesses of the Mythic Age, only with mortals placated into indifference with material comfort?

Sincerely not a fan of the "science evil" thing either (another point in favor of Awakening, which frames a "freedom vs. control" conflict in a much subtler manner, IMHO).

Quote from: RPGPundit;597421Except its the one vision that doesn't involve most of humanity being serfs dying of dysentery in the service of a group of Special People getting to be Wonderful.

RPGPundit

So, the cost of sanitation is room 101 and a boot slamming into your face, forever?

And the modern Technocracy is still all about Special People getting to be wonderful - they're all just rich westerners.

The Technocracy is great if you're rich. I've never seen a player playing a Technocrat on food stamps.

Quote from: Kaiu Keiichi;597681So, the cost of sanitation is room 101 and a boot slamming into your face, forever?

And the modern Technocracy is still all about Special People getting to be wonderful - they're all just rich westerners.

The Technocracy is great if you're rich. I've never seen a player playing a Technocrat on food stamps.

Well, that's the point I was making.
But the problem with Ascension is that both sides were trying to present it as either-or.  Well, except maybe the Etherites and Adepts, but who listens to them?

JG

I don't have the feeling that the setting considered science=evil to be axiomatic.  There was more than one tradition that tended to feel that way, sure, but that was just an in-game group.  I could roll with it or against it, whichever seemed more interesting.

Quote from: The Butcher;597549That's kind of the point of the Ascension War, isn't it? That the well-meaning vision of the Order of Reason has been twisted into an oppressive nightmare supposedly as bad as the excesses of the Mythic Age, only with mortals placated into indifference with material comfort?

Except its not. In our modern world we (average citizens of democratic western countries) have more freedoms than we had in almost any previous age, including a level of freedom to dissent and to not conform that would have appeared insane only a hundred years back.

But even if you ignore all that, even if the modern world was a dictatorship, wouldn't the fact that a very significant chunk of the population gets to live double the average lifespans they used to basically still make it better in every way than the mythical Hippie Bullshit Golden Age of herbal medicines that don't work?

And you'll note that I'm talking to you from the pov of maybe the only actual practicing magician on this thread... so you could say that part of what pisses me off so much about mage is that it plays into some of the dumbest things I've heard from real-life occult-people, particularly wiccans, who imagine that we'd all live in a never-ending Renaissance-Faire of pleasure if we didn't have all that pesky technology and western democracy.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;598153And you'll note that I'm talking to you from the pov of maybe the only actual practicing magician on this thread... so you could say that part of what pisses me off so much about mage is that it plays into some of the dumbest things I've heard from real-life occult-people, particularly wiccans, who imagine that we'd all live in a never-ending Renaissance-Faire of pleasure if we didn't have all that pesky technology and western democracy.

RPGPundit

Yeah, well the Hermetics were one of the more politically conservative Traditions.  ;)

JG

Quote from: Alathon;597865I don't have the feeling that the setting considered science=evil to be axiomatic.  There was more than one tradition that tended to feel that way, sure, but that was just an in-game group.  I could roll with it or against it, whichever seemed more interesting.

That's more from Werewolf and Changeling.  Sure, those Ether and Virtual Adept guys must sure think science is evil!

The 9 Traditions are a diverse bunch.  The majority of them, even the skyclad witches and 3rd world shaman guys like having things like toilets. It's more that the Union has been murdering anyone who isn't western and capitalist for the past 500 years.

Quote from: RPGPundit;598153Except its not. In our modern world we (average citizens of democratic western countries) have more freedoms than we had in almost any previous age, including a level of freedom to dissent and to not conform that would have appeared insane only a hundred years back.

But even if you ignore all that, even if the modern world was a dictatorship, wouldn't the fact that a very significant chunk of the population gets to live double the average lifespans they used to basically still make it better in every way than the mythical Hippie Bullshit Golden Age of herbal medicines that don't work?

And you'll note that I'm talking to you from the pov of maybe the only actual practicing magician on this thread... so you could say that part of what pisses me off so much about mage is that it plays into some of the dumbest things I've heard from real-life occult-people, particularly wiccans, who imagine that we'd all live in a never-ending Renaissance-Faire of pleasure if we didn't have all that pesky technology and western democracy.

RPGPundit

Also, the Technocractic Union hates real democracy quite a bit, as most oligarchs and command capitalists do. Remember, the magical socialists (the Craftmasons) were murdered by the rest of the order of reason, lead by the High Guild (later the Syndicate) in the setting. Technocracts are appointed, not elected, and the government of their Mage faction resembles a very nasty bureacratic oligarchy.

In the Mage setting, you have to accept as axiomatic that what ancient cultures did worked, until steamrolled by the march of colonialism and conquest.  Remember, these are paradigm and culture wars.  The setting presumes that ancient and non-western cultures had full featured, functioning reality models that were steamrollered by warfare and conquest.  Ascension is essentially a leftist criticism of western culture and capitalism, dumbed down for an RPG.  If you're not on board with that, then Mage doesn't work (kinda like how a progressive would be irked at some of the assumptions of The Price of Freedom.) Not to say that western science hasn't produced some great stuff, but the great failing of the Union is their utter love for system and essential hunger for power.  Further, Sleepers are responsible for scientific developments in the setting, and the Union broadly influences the direction of scientific conversation in western culture, and occasionally kills ideas that threaten their hegemony.

Traditionalists, generally, are more than willing to acknowledge that their forebearers may some dickish moves, but no forerunner of any modern Tradition ever controlled the world Consensus the way that the Union does now.  Even the Order of Hermes was content to feud among themselves and stay in their towers, instead of dragging their opponents to places like MECHA and literally working them to death.  Sure, some of the Chorus precursors were douchey witch burners, but these guys were either absorbed into the New World Order (aka, the Gabrielites) or were purged when the Ascension War began.  Heading to the industrial cities of China or Mexico City puts proof paid that the Technocrat scheme works any better than any other reality schema, where the only Mages in the halls of power are Unionists.

When I run Mage games, I generally work to portray my Awakened people as ass busting craft people who are deadly serious about their work, and who deliberately avoid recruiting fluffy privileged alt-religion types.  I treat Awakening as neither easy nor trivial.  People who Awaken experience an ego shattering event, either over years of hard spiritual work or in the midst of a sudden experience. The power to alter reality is not gained by hobbyists. While there are Wiccans in my Verbena, for example, these are people who seek to syncretically put together the mythic truths of ancient spiritual practices and make them available to people as an alternative to Technocratic corporate cynicism.  Virtual Adepts and Etherites (who I play more as fringe scientists and cutting edge researchers as opposed to steampunk cosplayers) are passionate about empirical method and inquiry, which the Union in my game generally dislikes due to the lack of ability to mold or control objective facts.  Read the NWO Convention Book for 2E - while otherwise a pretty awful book, the Union regards the scientific corpus of Sleepers something to be negated and molded for political needs.  They're about control and power, not science.

Also, this may not be the subject of this thread, but I'd like to know more about your craft inclinations, Pundit.  Your stuff in the real world occult thread is really useful, and I plan to use that stuff in my upcoming Mage games.

Quote from: RPGPundit;598153And you'll note that I'm talking to you from the pov of maybe the only actual practicing magician on this thread...

I wish I could fool myself into believing you're talking about stage magic.

This is sad on so many levels.

Quote from: The Butcher;597549That's kind of the point of the Ascension War, isn't it? That the well-meaning vision of the Order of Reason has been twisted into an oppressive nightmare supposedly as bad as the excesses of the Mythic Age, only with mortals placated into indifference with material comfort?

Sincerely not a fan of the "science evil" thing either (another point in favor of Awakening, which frames a "freedom vs. control" conflict in a much subtler manner, IMHO).

Correct.  There are some Obrimos technology factions that completely embrace the fact that humanity not magic is the central force of progress.  And work to subtly intregrated positive magical truths into said scientific thought a kind of anti-technocrat technocrat or a Son of Ether using actual science not SCIENCE! .

Quote from: Kaiu Keiichi;598269Also, this may not be the subject of this thread, but I'd like to know more about your craft inclinations, Pundit.  Your stuff in the real world occult thread is really useful, and I plan to use that stuff in my upcoming Mage games.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "craft inclinations"?

RPGPundit

Quote from: The Butcher;598307I wish I could fool myself into believing you're talking about stage magic.

This is sad on so many levels.

First, if this is a surprise to you, you obviously haven't been reading my "real magic in RPGs" blog entries or its archived thread on the Pundit's forum.

Second, would you find it sad if someone said they were a practicing Tantric Buddhist? A practicing Raja Yogi? Practicing Chi Gong? Practicing Sufi? A practicing Hebrew Qabalist?

Because western magick, when you actually grok what its about, is not different from any of the above; its an esoteric practical philosophy for self-transformation.

I can certainly understand, however, if you would have a different idea of what its about based on the 90% of utter bullshit that passes for "magic" or "the occult" in pop culture today.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;598330First, if this is a surprise to you, you obviously haven't been reading my "real magic in RPGs" blog entries or its archived thread on the Pundit's forum.

I've read it and that's actually pretty good fodder for Unknown Armies or other modern-day occult stuff.

Quote from: RPGPundit;598330Second, would you find it sad if someone said they were a practicing Tantric Buddhist? A practicing Raja Yogi? Practicing Chi Gong? Practicing Sufi? A practicing Hebrew Qabalist?

I would if it was in an argument about RPGs. "As the sole practicing Norse Pagan in these boards, here's why Runequest Vikings sucks..."

Quote from: The Butcher;598374I've read it and that's actually pretty good fodder for Unknown Armies or other modern-day occult stuff.

I was going to mention something similar.  It reminds me of the Witchcraft and Kult rpgs and current thought concerning Chaos Magic also. Makes for great inspiration for those games also.

Quote from: The Butcher;598374I would if it was in an argument about RPGs. "As the sole practicing Norse Pagan in these boards, here's why Runequest Vikings sucks..."

Bit of a difference there, though.  Mage is a modern-setting game, and I'm saying it reflects some of the bullshit you hear from idiots in the actual occult scene. I would be really stunned if at least some of the people who actually worked on mage weren't a part of that scene at the time, in fact.   It is a classic neo-pagan utopian-bullshit trip about how the only thing holding back the glorious arcadia of back-to-nature idyll is the evil western christian capitalist oppressor, with this vision that if only the wiccans ran the world we'd all be living in a non-technological renfaire wonderland where healing crystals would be easily superior to western surgery or antibiotics, and an all-wise council of The People Who Are Best At Magic (Because They Say They Are) would end up shepherding all the unwashed masses into heaven on earth, just like the middle ages would have been if it wasn't for them burning all those millions of wiccans back then, dontcha know.

I hear this sort of shit on facebook on a daily basis in occult circles, from people who think they're playing M:tA in real life, and who've never even heard of the rpg.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;598420Bit of a difference there, though.  Mage is a modern-setting game, and I'm saying it reflects some of the bullshit you hear from idiots in the actual occult scene. I would be really stunned if at least some of the people who actually worked on mage weren't a part of that scene at the time, in fact.   It is a classic neo-pagan utopian-bullshit trip about how the only thing holding back the glorious arcadia of back-to-nature idyll is the evil western christian capitalist oppressor, with this vision that if only the wiccans ran the world we'd all be living in a non-technological renfaire wonderland where healing crystals would be easily superior to western surgery or antibiotics, and an all-wise council of The People Who Are Best At Magic (Because They Say They Are) would end up shepherding all the unwashed masses into heaven on earth, just like the middle ages would have been if it wasn't for them burning all those millions of wiccans back then, dontcha know.

I hear this sort of shit on facebook on a daily basis in occult circles, from people who think they're playing M:tA in real life, and who've never even heard of the rpg.

RPGPundit

I heard that kind of bullshit from rafts of WW fans back when it was still contemporary to be a fan of WW games.

It was definitely a founding attitude behind a lot of WW's writing in the 90s and early 00s.

Quote from: RPGPundit;598420Bit of a difference there, though.  Mage is a modern-setting game, and I'm saying it reflects some of the bullshit you hear from idiots in the actual occult scene. I would be really stunned if at least some of the people who actually worked on mage weren't a part of that scene at the time, in fact.   It is a classic neo-pagan utopian-bullshit trip about how the only thing holding back the glorious arcadia of back-to-nature idyll is the evil western christian capitalist oppressor, with this vision that if only the wiccans ran the world we'd all be living in a non-technological renfaire wonderland where healing crystals would be easily superior to western surgery or antibiotics, and an all-wise council of The People Who Are Best At Magic (Because They Say They Are) would end up shepherding all the unwashed masses into heaven on earth, just like the middle ages would have been if it wasn't for them burning all those millions of wiccans back then, dontcha know.

I hear this sort of shit on facebook on a daily basis in occult circles, from people who think they're playing M:tA in real life, and who've never even heard of the rpg.

RPGPundit

I agree if you're talking MtAc hence the reason I gave it away while giving Jess the middle finger and giving all my Dnd stuff away not 1/2nd edition.

Quote from: RPGPundit;598329I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "craft inclinations"?

RPGPundit

Implied occult practice. I take that you're a serious practitioner,apologies for misconceptions or clumsy use of language.

Quote from: RPGPundit;598420Bit of a difference there, though.  Mage is a modern-setting game, and I'm saying it reflects some of the bullshit you hear from idiots in the actual occult scene. I would be really stunned if at least some of the people who actually worked on mage weren't a part of that scene at the time, in fact.   It is a classic neo-pagan utopian-bullshit trip about how the only thing holding back the glorious arcadia of back-to-nature idyll is the evil western christian capitalist oppressor, with this vision that if only the wiccans ran the world we'd all be living in a non-technological renfaire wonderland where healing crystals would be easily superior to western surgery or antibiotics, and an all-wise council of The People Who Are Best At Magic (Because They Say They Are) would end up shepherding all the unwashed masses into heaven on earth, just like the middle ages would have been if it wasn't for them burning all those millions of wiccans back then, dontcha know.

I hear this sort of shit on facebook on a daily basis in occult circles, from people who think they're playing M:tA in real life, and who've never even heard of the rpg.

RPGPundit

I know that Phil Brucato is a practicing neo pagan.  Malcolm Sheppard is a pretty hard core Buddhist (don't know what school however.)  As for the rest of the people who worked on Ascension, I don't know.

And yeah, there is a good degree of new age stuff piled into Mage, but not nearly as much as I've seen in some other games.  It was a semi-serious attempt to create a game where real magicians did their stuff from a cultural basis, and used post-modernist theory well to enable players to play magicians from more or less any real life practice, more or less. It let you slot any rl lore into your character and have your PC believe all of it.

Quote from: Kaiu Keiichi;598614And yeah, there is a good degree of new age stuff piled into Mage, but not nearly as much as I've seen in some other games.  It was a semi-serious attempt to create a game where real magicians did their stuff from a cultural basis, and used post-modernist theory well to enable players to play magicians from more or less any real life practice, more or less. It let you slot any rl lore into your character and have your PC believe all of it.

This. It might be crap occultism (I couldn't tell), but it makes for good gaming. Ditto for Awakening, actually, which also riffs off RL occult stuff (albeit probably in a more openly fantastic manner).

Quote from: Kaiu Keiichi;598612Implied occult practice. I take that you're a serious practitioner,apologies for misconceptions or clumsy use of language.

Still not exactly sure what you want to know...

Left Hand path came out for Mage the Awakening. Very cool stuff!