Quote from: Kaiu Keiichi;594848Lenin lied - he was never a true socialist or Marxist, since he viciously spoke out against workers having direct control of the means of production, being a vanguard (aka, a fake) socialist.

Yet again with the "Lenin wasn't a REAL socialist" defense.  This is just as accurate as saying Torquemada wasn't a REAL Catholic.

JG

Quote from: danbuter;595061I like the older WW games, and I have to admit Pundit is mostly right about them. Look at Mage:

You're a powerful magic-user, but you can't actually cast any spells if normals are around, or you will suffer horrible backlash. Kind of kills the point of being a mage.

Which is not the same as Pundit said. Pundit is parroting a stereotype that's about as accurate as "D&D is all about hack-and-slash roll-play" or "WFRP is about playing retarded one-armed peasants covered in shit".

And yeah, Ascension's take on Paradox was a tad harsher than the ideal, but Mage without Paradox would be about as fun as CoC without Sanity.

Quote from: The Butcher;595088Which is not the same as Pundit said. Pundit is parroting a stereotype that's about as accurate as "D&D is all about hack-and-slash roll-play" or "WFRP is about playing retarded one-armed peasants covered in shit".

The problem being that both of those statements, like Pundit's, have at least some truth to them.  

JG

Quote from: James Gillen;595072Yet again with the "Lenin wasn't a REAL socialist" defense.  This is just as accurate as saying Torquemada wasn't a REAL Catholic.

JG

Hmm, KK is claiming Lenin did not support workers controlling the means of production and that makes him not a "real socialist".  Valid arguments include...

• Showing how Lenin did support workers controlling the means of production.
• Showing how a "real Socialist" can indeed support some elite controlling the means of production.
• Showing how there can be no "real Socialist" because it is a Utopian ideal that can't happen.
• Pretty much anything but "Oh this shit again that I'm dismissing despite being given a clear point to refute."

Just sayin'

Quote from: The ButcherThere's not a single truthful word in the above quote.

Hmm, lets look at this:

Quote from: RPGPundit;595007they're always about Inherently Special people who are different from everyone else

Umm, sorry bro, this is 100% true.  Vampires, Werewolves, Demon, Faeries, Mummies, even the mundanes can have Faith, Hedge Magic whatever.  Of course you can make this claim about a lot of games.

Quote from: RPGPundit;595007and truly wonderful while everyone else sucks ass

Ayup, it's really a cliche of all WoD that no matter how fucked up a "Book Race" is, they're doing it right compared to the other lines.

Quote from: RPGPundit;595007and yet they are persecuted and reviled by the unwashed masses because of their specialness

In which WoD book exactly does the signature species not hide from the rest of humanity again?

Quote from: RPGPundit;595007instead of being recognized and allowed to run the world like they think they should.

V, W, M this is obviously true, less so in the other ones.

Dunno man, with Gillen on this one, Pundit's right.

Yeah it's a stereotype, and it's one that is basically true.  The question you should be asking is, "Ok, so what?"

Quote from: CRKrueger;595524Yeah it's a stereotype, and it's one that is basically true.  The question you should be asking is, "Ok, so what?"

Nope.

Pundit's post suggests that the games revolve entirely around these elements, like the other stereotypes I've mentioned.

Quote from: The Butcher;595563Nope.

Pundit's post suggests that the games revolve entirely around these elements, like the other stereotypes I've mentioned.

But the best way to combat that isn't to deny the stereotype, which has a large chunk of truth behind it, that's why it sticks and persists.  Even you're not saying the stereotype is incorrect, it's the inference that that's all WoD has to offer that you object to.

Denying the stereotype is a falsehood, which doesn't help your side any.  Arguing that the stereotype isn't all that can be done with oWoD or even that despite the stereotype there's so much more, is the way to really combat it.

Quote from: CRKrueger;595524Umm, sorry bro, this is 100% true.  Vampires, Werewolves, Demon, Faeries, Mummies, even the mundanes can have Faith, Hedge Magic whatever.  Of course you can make this claim about a lot of games.

And of course, while the PCs in the oWoD games were often "born special" in some fashion, any nWoD mortal may technically gain almost any major template. Mummies and Prometheans are the two exceptions: the former because they were all created in the ancient times, the latter because they aren't the people whose corpses were used for their raw materials. Ending up turned into a vampire or a changeling isn't exactly some shining personal achievement, and obviously it could happen to anyone.

Being "wonderful" in comparison to others shows up less in the newer setting, as well. Prommie PCs, most obviously, are all about trying to achieve a normal human existence instead of remaining things that shouldn't be. Changelings commonly idolize mundane life and aren't described as "better" than ordinary folks, only different. And vampires are parasites who ultimately aren't good for anyone or anything.

(The new changelings also don't hide so much from humanity as from Faerie, and their society as a whole doesn't subscribe to any formal code of "masquerade". While they understand the potential risks of a xenophobic backlash and tend to lie low so as not to attract the attention of the Fae, the topic of going public does come up from time to time. They aren't out to rule the world, either.)

Quote from: The Butcher;595031And what pray tell is this magical non-escapist RPG that you're playing? Grey Ranks? :rolleyes:

Its a different sort of escapism from, say, D&D.

QuoteThere's not a single truthful word in the above quote. You are a shameless liar. Your hatred for White Wolf and depths you're willing to go to discredit it are nothing short of pathological.

Really? In fact, my description fits the bill for Vampire, Werewolf, Mage, and even Exalted.  All of them, despite certain differences, involve the players portraying special magical people who have to remain apart from normal society and are persecuted or hunted by those who don't understand them.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;595923In fact, my description fits the bill for Vampire, Werewolf, Mage, and even Exalted.  All of them, despite certain differences, involve the players portraying special magical people who have to remain apart from normal society and are persecuted or hunted by those who don't understand them.

Mages, both old and new, are more typically persecuted by other mages (the Technocracy in the first case, the Seers or Banishers in the second), though. And I get the impression that at least these days Exalted focuses far more on the PCs' role as world leaders than on scampering away from the Wyld Hunt. (Not to mention that you can always play the Dragon-Blooded instead.)

Quote from: GrimGent;595950Mages, both old and new, are more typically persecuted by other mages (the Technocracy in the first case, the Seers or Banishers in the second), though. And I get the impression that at least these days Exalted focuses far more on the PCs' role as world leaders than on scampering away from the Wyld Hunt. (Not to mention that you can always play the Dragon-Blooded instead.)

In MtAw you're spot on. Mages big enemies are other mages especially given Ascencion War stuff is tier 5 archmage territory. On the other hand mages are demostrabley special in some cases given with mastery in Mind/Life it's easy to have all 5's in every stat and any skill you please paradox free and even higher if you're subtle about it.

Just update revised. It got rid of the fucking idiocy in 2e, and made it an actual WoD game

Quote from: Randaconda;596109Just update revised. It got rid of the fucking idiocy in 2e, and made it an actual WoD game

Hence the issue.  I am all in until the fucked bullshit of the Avatar Storm and "who cares idiotic bullshit" winning.  Stasis winning? Fuck that, fuck Jess, and fuck Revised. It's so nice to be home I missed this place.

You want Mage as a WoD game? It's done and it's called Mage the Awakening.  That sir, is a game that has mages playing fair given it erased the bullshit Entropy sphere, lowered the power level without ritual to level 4 MtAs except in specific cases. Gave you signature spells, rotes, personal rotes, improv magic that's completely flexible up to risk you want to take, legacies that give you knacks paradox free, the ability to use magic, actual full on magic anytime as long as you use strategies like a chess player. Without bullshit gas mains blowing up as you fireball some bastard.  Better yet. Mages are nasty assassination experts no paradox even.

And introduced the Wisdom mechanic. Don't like Wisdom? Cry me a river because fair is fair so deal with it. With ultimate power comes ultimate corruption, pretty simple. And rituals are free rein as is overchanneling and if the GM allows sympathetic Arcana. Oh yeah, human sacrifice rocks the house, magically that is.

Fun part is, archmastery isn't a lie you just have to search and study a bit.

Quote from: Randaconda;596109Just update revised. It got rid of the fucking idiocy in 2e, and made it an actual WoD game

Well, since 2e is the definitive Mage for me, it really wouldn't be the same without dinosaurs in the Hollow Earth and spaceships around the moons of Jupiter. I seriously doubt I'm alone in that: the most probable course for WW is to rewind the metaplot back to the time before the Avatar Storm and include it as an option for the fans of Revised.

Quote from: GrimGent;596222Well, since 2e is the definitive Mage for me, it really wouldn't be the same without dinosaurs in the Hollow Earth and spaceships around the moons of Jupiter. I seriously doubt I'm alone in that: the most probable course for WW is to rewind the metaplot back to the time before the Avatar Storm and include it as an option for the fans of Revised.

But those kind of things are what I hate the most!