Quote from: Emperor Norton;553043Convention security staff... blah blah blah...

All irrelevant to this discussion.

Notwithstanding how inflated an opinion a convention's security staff have of themselves, reports of serious crimes like rape are investigated by police. Therefore, the significance (or otherwise) of a covention's security staff has zero impact on whether a rape allegation is taken seriously because it is the police who do the actual investigating. Even if there were zero convention security staff, a report of rape would still be investigated.

Quote from: RPGPundit;553061its just missing someone claiming that "All heterosexual intercourse is rape".

One of them was hellbent on trying to convince me that a) she was a scientist and b) all unborn babies are parasites. Is that close enough?

The only wonder is that I lasted as log as I did.

Quote from: Sinister Brain;553038Perhaps I'm dense or having a hard time with the walls of text but concisely; What do you want to happen?
BT and Pseudoephedrine to be unbanned?
Some sort of point system ala RPGnet?
A layer of bureaucratic protection so you feel safe posting?
Some long declaration of rules explicitly stating dos and donts? (Seems to me there's already a site that has that)

I wanted B.T. and Pseudoephedrine to be unbanned  (though I understand why both were banned and don't entirely disagree with either one), people not to get banned without a clear warning (e.g., continue doing/saying X and you will get banned), and clearer guidelines on on what will get one banned.

Yes, I'm well aware that RPGnet already has "bureaucratic protection" and a long declaration of specific rules and I've pointed out that I've managed to discuss political topics against the grain there (e.g., supporting Sarah Palin on Tangency fairly recently) without getting myself banned because I know where the lines are.  I'm not looking for the same very rigid lines that RPGnet has nor am I necessarily looking for lines quite that specific, but I'd like something a little more clear than "disruption", which could mean just about anything.  

Quote from: Sinister Brain;553038You just keep stating the same argument and wanting some kind of answer, but in the Help desk thread it seemed you got answers but didn't like them, so you restated it, you'd get an answer, unhappy with that answer too, restate it, ad nauseum.

No, I keep restating my opinion because people keep mischaracterizing my opinion, drawing incorrect conclusions about what I'm saying (as you did above), and because the reasons why B.T. got banned are still changing.  Rather than engage in idle speculation about the psychological motivations for why people have had trouble giving me a clear and consistent answer on why B.T. was banned at that particular moment and don't seem willing to address the inherent conflict between, "Speak your mind here, without fear!" and banning someone for expressing when he expressed an opinion a moderator didn't like (and which has been mischaracterized by the moderators), I'm trying to get to the bottom of what they really mean.  When the answers stop shifting around, maybe I'll have gotten there.

When RPGPundit explained exactly why Pseudoephedrine was banned, it was crisp, clear, consistent, and understandable so I dropped my objections.

Quote from: Dodger;553068All irrelevant to this discussion.

Notwithstanding how inflated an opinion a convention's security staff have of themselves, reports of serious crimes like rape are investigated by police. Therefore, the significance (or otherwise) of a covention's security staff has zero impact on whether a rape allegation is taken seriously because it is the police who do the actual investigating. Even if there were zero convention security staff, a report of rape would still be investigated.

Yes, it is investigated by police. I think their point was that if the staff don't treat it seriously, then would the police?

People see other people in authority as just that, authority, even if in reality they have very little. Its why when I worked security at a con I could tell people to come with me, even though, legally they could just walk away from me and I couldn't do anything about it (other than grab a cop if the reason I was telling them to come with me was illegal, such as theft/sexual assault).

Basically if person X in authority isn't taking it seriously, then why would person Y in authority.

Its faulty thinking, but psychologically, I can see why it happens.

(the other point I was making still stands though: I have, never, ever seen a con staff not take sexual assault/harassment lightly)

For the record, Morrow, while I've agreed with you on some of the things you've said around here, and disagreed with other things you've said around here, you've never even come up on the radar as someone who comes even close to being considered for banning.  If you ever did, unless you did it by say suddenly and with no prior warning signs start to post hardcore porn images or something, you'd also know it well beforehand; almost no one here has ever been banned without it being pretty clear it was a long time coming.

So if all of this is really about a sense of personal insecurity, as I've already tried to make clear with you before, there's really no relation whatsoever between you and BT.

RPGPundit

Quote from: John Morrow;553071When the answers stop shifting around, maybe I'll have gotten there.

If you could get there in your helpdesk thread rather than here that would be great.

Quote from: RPGPundit;553078For the record, Morrow, while I've agreed with you on some of the things you've said around here, and disagreed with other things you've said around here, you've never even come up on the radar as someone who comes even close to being considered for banning.  If you ever did, unless you did it by say suddenly and with no prior warning signs start to post hardcore porn images or something, you'd also know it well beforehand; almost no one here has ever been banned without it being pretty clear it was a long time coming.

So if all of this is really about a sense of personal insecurity, as I've already tried to make clear with you before, there's really no relation whatsoever between you and BT.

It's not simply about personal insecurity, but this addresses that concern.

Quote from: The Traveller;553079If you could get there in your helpdesk thread rather than here that would be great.

If people stop replying here and move their replies over there, I'd be more than happy to.

Quote from: John Morrow;553035That may be the case, but given the amount of complaints that I've had directed toward everything from how I reply and how long my replies are to what I say and how I say it, that have included accusations that would qualify as accusations of "disruption", I don't really have any way of telling how close or far I am, which is my concern.  And despite the claims that Pseudoephedrine and B.T. knew they were going to be banned or were asking for it, I got the impression both were surprised by it.

I second this impression as I'm often accused of trolling and being disruptive, often by a moderator. Currently I'm of the opinion that the only way I've avoided being banned up to now is due to the short visits I make, and the long breaks between them.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;553076Yes, it is investigated by police. I think their point was that if the staff don't treat it seriously, then would the police?

Hmmm. Let's imagine that scenario for a moment.

The police turn up at a convention venue to investigate a report of a rape. The convention's security staff tell the police that they don't take the rape allegation seriously. Do the police:
a) continue their investigation regardless, or
b) drop the investigation, head back to the precinct and cut the victim loose with an warning about wasting police time?

Answers on a postcard, please!

Quote from: Dodger;553087Hmmm. Let's imagine that scenario for a moment.

The police turn up at a convention venue to investigate a report of a rape. The convention's security staff tell the police that they don't take the rape allegation seriously. Do the police:
a) continue their investigation regardless, or
b) drop the investigation, head back to the precinct and cut the victim loose with an warning about wasting police time?

Answers on a postcard, please!

Awesome job ignoring the rest of my post.

I even ADMITTED that it was stupid. Jesus christ.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;553091Awesome job ignoring the rest of my post.

I didn't ignore the rest of your post. I merely chose not to quote it because I have a policy of not wasting bandwidth on irrelevant inanity.

The fact that the average con-goer fails to realise that members of the convention's security staff have about as much authority as a queue-control stanchion has no bearing whatsoever on whether the police would drop an investigation into a serious crime because the convention's security staff did not take the allegation seriously. Amongst the many reasons for this are the facts that the police:

• are not 14-year old geeks who lack the wits or balls to tell some jumped up mall-cop wannabe who's ordering them about to go fuck himself,
• are, by and large, professionals with at least some training in the law and, therefore,
• are cognizant of the fact that convention security staff do not, in fact, have the authority to call off rape investigations.

Now, I appreciate that you're new here but if this is indicative of the quality of contribution that we can expect from you, please feel free to fuck off right back to TBP because this is a place for grown-ups and the sort of incoherent, ill-considered, childish, pointless drivel that you can get away with over there, simply won't wash here.

PS: Welcome to theRPGsite!

Quote from: Dodger;553100I didn't ignore the rest of your post. I merely chose not to quote it because I have a policy of not wasting bandwidth on irrelevant inanity.

The fact that the average con-goer fails to realise that members of the convention's security staff have about as much authority as a queue-control stanchion has no bearing whatsoever on whether the police would drop an investigation into a serious crime because the convention's security staff did not take the allegation seriously.

I never said it did. I said that the perception is a psychological correlation that people make that is DUMB, but its there.

Its incredibly faulty thinking to think that the cops wouldn't take it seriously just because con staff didn't. That doesn't stop people from thinking it, and I was pointing out WHY they think that, even though I disagree with it, and think it is ignorant as hell.

So fuck off yourself.

PS: Thanks for the welcome

Good thread.  Good site.  Will visit again.

I got linked to RPGnet (which I was already aware of, but wasn't a regular reader) and the Desborough/Mongoose debacle and couldn't believe what I was seeing.  Then I found out that goons were involved and it all came together.

This is a typical goon rush.  SA used to be a very different kind of place.  It was much more an 'anything goes' humor forum once upon a time.  The batshit crazy cultural Marxists chased off all the creators of OC or anyone with a sense of humor (as has been pointed out time and again by comedians, humor is routed in transgression which is something SA can't tolerate being a bunch of overly politically correct dickwads).  Organizing such a thing is ostensibly banned, but the place has become so monocultural that posting a link over the latest outrage results in a goon rush.

You can see some of the ironic relic of the SA of old in Grognards.txt in them decrying the unacceptability of any and all rape jokes under any circumstances while their word filter simultaneously makes a rape joke by changing 'rape' into 'surprise sex'.

The same exact people who turned SA into a far-left hugbox and drove away content creators will do the exact same thing to RPGnet and anywhere else they get a foothold.  The TG subforum's own creative output is truly embarrassing:  http://shii.org/knows/Zybourne_Clock.  

Terms like 'goony' or 'goon fiction' are becoming memetic and goons easily identifiable to outsiders as the hugbox squeezes tighter every year and the bizarre, twisted view of the world that goons possess becomes more insulated from the reality that most of us inhabit.  People reading over at RPGnet can smell something ripe even though they aren't (or weren't) in the know about Somethingawful, or if they know about the site they know it by its' former reputation and not as the platform for political activism that it has become.

I think anyone can agree these days that cops are going to investigate allegations of rape (unless it's from a prostitute in which case frequently NHI still applies), however, you're missing something here Dodger.  Supposedly the victim did not report the crime to the police.  Instead the Convention staff was alerted and they did nothing (or rather treated it as a joke).  So if the victim or the convention staff she told do not contact the police, what makes you think the police get involved to begin with?  They don't, and the crime goes unreported.