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What are the Strengths & Weaknesses of the RPG Medium? (as compared to others)

Started by Anon Adderlan, January 18, 2012, 06:08:38 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

Ian Warner

Creative freedom that will never be parelleled by any other media.
Directing Editor of Kittiwake Classics

silva

Quote from: chaosvoyager;506478...

I'm not going to say a DAMN thing. I'll let you guys get started.
:rotfl:

Rincewind1

Quote from: Ian Warner;506479Creative freedom that will never be parelleled by any other media.

Go write a book, I assure you you will have more freedom then when playing RPG. No mechanics, no GM, no other players, nothing to worry about, and all you need is a cheapest notebook and cheapest pen from the local store to get started.

RPGs exist to provide an experience, they're the easel and paint for the GM and the players.

Of course, the answers you want to hear, to re - affirm yourself, aren't here. They're over there. Here, let me link you.

http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forge/index.php
Furthermore, I consider that  This is Why We Don\'t Like You thread should be closed

One Horse Town

Quote from: chaosvoyager;506478...

I'm not going to say a DAMN thing. I'll let you guys get started.

In which case, you're trolling.

I'm sure it'll get going despite that fact.

Rincewind1

Quote from: One Horse Town;506493In which case, you're trolling.

I'm sure it'll get going despite that fact.

Oh I know he is. I can see the whole thread unfold already.

1) Statements about how RPGs are made to tell/make the story are made
2) Statements against them are made
3) Statements against the first statement are made, cunningly twisting the second statements.
4) Shitstorm blows out.
Furthermore, I consider that  This is Why We Don\'t Like You thread should be closed

DominikSchwager

Quote from: Rincewind1;506489Go write a book, I assure you you will have more freedom then when playing RPG. No mechanics, no GM, no other players, nothing to worry about, and all you need is a cheapest notebook and cheapest pen from the local store to get started.

RPGs exist to provide an experience, they're the easel and paint for the GM and the players.

Of course, the answers you want to hear, to re - affirm yourself, aren't here. They're over there. Here, let me link you.

http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forge/index.php

Did you really just accuse Ian of being a storygamer while comparing your game to art?

Silverlion

I think the thing for me is that "I create fun with friends." It isn't the same as a video game, where we use mechanics and push buttons. We create a story but not in the way some gamers mean.

We aren't "Telling" a story. We are creating one. The whole thing--the things players chose, the things GM's do, all of that together to create a story that we can share with others. The difference between RPing and creating a shared universe setting, is we aren't "controlled," we create things on the fly, together, and can't go back and change that. It is fashioned already. From beginning right after chargen, to the finale game--that is a story, but it isn't one we told, it is one we shaped/created and can share with others in hindsight.

I had a better term for it the other day that just doesn't come to mine. Neither author, nor teller, nor writer. I wish I could recall it. The whole experience is social, living, breathing "thing." Which we experience.
High Valor REVISED: A fantasy Dark Age RPG. Available NOW!
Hearts & Souls 2E Coming in 2019

Rincewind1

Quote from: DominikSchwager;506504Did you really just accuse Ian of being a storygamer while comparing your game to art?

Nope, I told him that if he wants creative freedom, he won't find a medium more liberal then a notebook and a pen - paper generally is a rather silent companion, and states no opinions about what is written on it.

And yes. Yes I did. And I believe there is a certain level of artistry to both GMing and playing RPGs. And I don't give a damn that you will use my words as an argument to ridicule me, as you will most likely do. The following statement is for the rest.

 Sure, we're no actors or even close, but we try. We'd be probably ridiculed by the most amateur of theatres - but we try. We play to entertain ourselves, to experience things we are rather unlikely to do in real life - the glorious battles, the feeling of comradeship of the ship's crew, the tragedies of watching your empire turn into dust before your very eyes. They are Aragorn when he charges the forces of Sauron at Minas Tirith, but they are also Oedipus when he despairs over his fate.

And I think GMing is a craft of sorts, and as such, it can have a degree of artistry. I try my best to be a good GM, to anyone who wishes to play at my table. I practice facial expressions before a mirror, I practice narration, I practice gesticulations in my free time. I read a lot of poetry, not only because I love it, but also because a poetic "flow" can really help you greatly when you narrate, especially in horror. When I read a book, I often note (at least mentally), how to use a good character/plot in my game. I am fascinated by movies, and I use movie terminology and practices to help with my narration - close - up, cuts, lighting, all that jazz. I also take objects, scenes and characters from movies, and sometimes just show them to my players, as they help with visualization. Same if I find an interesting picture on the Net - sometimes I sketch an adventure/world/scene just after looking at the picture. I read a lot of RPG books, so I can nitpick and steal various mechanical gimmicks, and tedbits of GMing advice from them.

Finally - I play. I GM with as many people as I can, with various crews. I take criticism, and I try to make myself better. I work on my scenarios (I play one - shots quite a bit), and I always try to adjust them, make them better next time, try to make them perfect for any group that sits to play it.

Is a GM an artist? Certainly not in the eyes of most, as most people don't even know what a GM is. But I like to think, that just for a moment, when I stand next to my players, and begin to weave the tale - the tale that they will change and loose themselves in.

I don't care if you laugh or point fingers - I'm proud to be a GM, and I try to be the best damn GM about. You can call me Swine - so be it. But I believe firmly,  that no system, ever, will remove that true spark that a good GM can bring, that sets aflame the campfire of experience - after all, RPGs draw a bit from the tradition of storytelling around the fire - but the earliest one, back in the days where people closed their eyes, and imagined themselves heroes from the tale, and how they'd change it if they were in place of heroes, not just the idle receivers of the tale.
Furthermore, I consider that  This is Why We Don\'t Like You thread should be closed

kryyst

RPG's strengths are often it's weaknesses.  Which is to say that your enjoyment of them is reliant on the trust of others.
AccidentalSurvivors.com : The blood will put out the fire.

hexgrid

Quote from: Rincewind1;506524Nope, I told him that if he wants creative freedom, he won't find a medium more liberal then a notebook and a pen - paper generally is a rather silent companion, and states no opinions about what is written on it.

And yes. Yes I did. And I believe there is a certain level of artistry to both GMing and playing RPGs. And I don't give a damn that you will use my words as an argument to ridicule me, as you will most likely do.

If you deserve ridicule, it's for the bizarre offense you took at the idea of RPGs providing creative freedom.
 

crkrueger

This is a trend I've noticed, and I think it has to do in part with English as Second Langauge maybe.  Most English speakers I think would look at Ian's remark, and assume by "media", he was speaking within the assumed context of gaming media.  I don't think Ian was suggesting he has more creative freedom then say, Alan Ginsburg.  Maybe he was, who knows?

In any case, the rest of it is Rince then pouncing on that possibly misunderstood word or phrase with both feet, thus starting a few pages of flame wars about who said what.  :D
Even the the "cutting edge" storygamers for all their talk of narrative, plot, and drama are fucking obsessed with the god damned rules they use. - Estar

Yes, Sean Connery\'s thumb does indeed do megadamage. - Spinachcat

Isuldur is a badass because he stopped Sauron with a broken sword, but Iluvatar is the badass because he stopped Sauron with a hobbit. -Malleus Arianorum

"Tangency Edition" D&D would have no classes or races, but 17 genders to choose from. -TristramEvans

crkrueger

To the OP, I'd say the obvious strength of tabletop RPGs is the interactivity it offers the players.  Any computer game, boardgame, cardgame, etc provides structure to deliver a specific kind of experience.  That focus is great if you like that experience, but it constraining if you want something else.

A tabletop RPG does have rules, however, those rules are subject to Rule Zero.  That's why I prefer games that leave the rules as "physics engine" and let the GM and players handle the rest.  Other types of RPGs that include relationship mechanics or any other type of metagame are trying to focus the experience, but they are also introducing constraint as they do so, which is why I avoid Storygames or heavily metagamed Narrative RPGs like the plague.
Even the the "cutting edge" storygamers for all their talk of narrative, plot, and drama are fucking obsessed with the god damned rules they use. - Estar

Yes, Sean Connery\'s thumb does indeed do megadamage. - Spinachcat

Isuldur is a badass because he stopped Sauron with a broken sword, but Iluvatar is the badass because he stopped Sauron with a hobbit. -Malleus Arianorum

"Tangency Edition" D&D would have no classes or races, but 17 genders to choose from. -TristramEvans

Benoist

Some strengths of tabletop role playing games:

(1) It's a social game. It's a game you play face you face with real people rolling dice and laughing together and throwing jokes and having a good time. It appeals to (some) human beings over the cold, lonely interaction with a machine and remote, vague identities online on a basic, instinctive, biological level. It's the pleasure of entertaining oneself with others. And it's not only a pleasure, but it's useful. How many geeks have learned how to make a presentation by playing role playing games and getting used to speak in public that way? I wonder.

(2) This is a game of your imagination. You and your buddies are in complete control of the game content. You do not subject yourself to somebody else's vision of what a tower looks like on the screen, what the light is like, what walls in the game you can and can't go through. Not only are you playing the game itself, but you are also playing with the engine that allows you to emulate the reality you choose to play in: you want skills or classes? Rules light, or rules heavy? Want to make up your own rules, or buy a game that gives you a starting point instead? Etc. You control your make believe from A to Z.

(3) Because of (2), role playing games appeal to curious individuals who like to learn about lots of different things. You go into encyclopedias and newspapers and websites to find ideas. You paint your miniatures. You map your dungeons. You draw sketches or symbols for your characters. You build terrain. The game encourages you to engage lots of different art forms, means of expression, and sources of knowledge. This is a tremendous asset, which is the reason why replacing mythological ideas and archetypes in a game like D&D by made up porte-manteaux bullshit that just serves to "strengthen the IP" is total bullshit and plays against the strength of role playing games. Go back to classical and medieval inspirations. Try to be remotely faithful to the source materials for once, so people can do some imagining based on them and share common cultural references in the real world that will make them feel better about themselves. Etc.

(4) Still related to point (2), the fact that the imagining itself is going on in your head. This in fact me isolating the very important point that you are visualizing the make-believe in your head and sharing it with other people next to you. This is basically the point Gary Gygax was talking about when comparing TRPGs to Computer games: "There is no intimacy; it’s not live. [he said of online games] It’s being translated through a computer, and your imagination is not there the same way it is when you’re actually together with a group of people. It reminds me of one time where I saw some children talking about whether they liked radio or television, and I asked one little boy why he preferred radio, and he said, "Because the pictures are so much better." Which is why miniatures and physical representations should NOT be the D&D game's default mode of play, but an option (however detailed and fun you want it to be) instead.

David Johansen

Unparalled creativity?  Perhaps not but unparalelled access to the audience, immediacy of feedback.  Meaningful interaction?  Yeah, those are unparalelled.
Fantasy Adventure Comic, games, and more http://www.uncouthsavage.com