Quote from: Silverlion;506511we create things on the fly, together, and can't go back and change that.

Without this I don't believe a game can have meaningful consequences. If you could just go back and change the things you didn't like, the world would feel less real, and nothing would mean anything.

I also think the fact that participants do not have complete say (or are aware of having such) over what is true about a setting plays a fundamental part in how real the world feels.

It's sorta like playing with a Ouija board. Nobody determines the path taken, yet everybody determines the path taken, and nobody is aware of what that path will be, but everybody is responsible for choosing it.

Quote from: Rincewind1;506524And I don't give a damn that you will use my words as an argument to ridicule me, as you will most likely do.
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We'd be probably ridiculed by the most amateur of theatres - but we try.
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I don't care if you laugh or point fingers
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You can call me Swine

I only want to point out that is seems here that you expect to be ridiculed, and that may have something to do with the reason you are. Have you actually been to an amateur theatre, or participated in an Improv group? Because barring high school where pretty much every clique was full of vicious sycophants, these places are open and welcoming. They HAVE to be for this kind of thing to work.

Quote from: Rincewind1;506524I practice facial expressions before a mirror, I practice narration, I practice gesticulations in my free time. I read a lot of poetry, not only because I love it, but also because a poetic "flow" can really help you greatly when you narrate, especially in horror. When I read a book, I often note (at least mentally), how to use a good character/plot in my game. I am fascinated by movies, and I use movie terminology and practices to help with my narration - close - up, cuts, lighting, all that jazz. I also take objects, scenes and characters from movies, and sometimes just show them to my players, as they help with visualization. Same if I find an interesting picture on the Net - sometimes I sketch an adventure/world/scene just after looking at the picture. I read a lot of RPG books, so I can nitpick and steal various mechanical gimmicks, and tedbits of GMing advice from them.

This is great advice. There's nothing mockworthy in any of this, and if you said things like this more often instead of telling everyone how wrong they are, you'd find a lot less hostility directed at you.

Quote from: kryyst;506527Which is to say that your enjoyment of them is reliant on the trust of others.

That can be said for a lot of interactive mediums.

Quote from: CRKrueger;506542the obvious strength of tabletop RPGs is the interactivity it offers the players.

Yes, but what kind of interactivity does it offers?

For example, the dice, maps, and miniatures all offer a communications channel that doesn't exist in other forms of media. On the other hand, this also makes up for the lack of feedback provided by visuals and certain forms of body language.

Even simply playing a TRPG via IM changes the nature of the medium. Voice communication is not present, so being able to express through inflection and accent is eliminated. On the other hand, typing the responses means that there's less 'noise' in the communication, and much more focus on what is happening in the game. And moving from IM to PbP changes things once again, if for no other reason than participants now have more time in which to make their response.

Quote from: CRKrueger;506542A tabletop RPG does have rules, however, those rules are subject to Rule Zero.  That's why I prefer games that leave the rules as "physics engine" and let the GM and players handle the rest.

My only problem with Rule Zero is that I have yet to find an RPG where this rule applies to the players. And most RPGs don't so much have an engine that handles 'physics' as they do one that decides matters of life and death.

Quote from: Benoist;506544It's a game you play face you face with real people

I think this is key.

Quote from: Benoist;506544You do not subject yourself to somebody else's vision of what a tower looks like on the screen, what the light is like, what walls in the game you can and can't go through.

This is something TRPGs have in common with other literary mediums. I believe the best RPGs allow every player to have their own unique vision of what their character sees, yet provide a non-disruptive way of resolving differences between those visions when the need arises.

The problem is that these are two contradictory goals, and in pursuit of one you have to make concessions in the other.

Quote from: Benoist;506544role playing games appeal to curious individuals who like to learn about lots of different things.

So does the internet, but you showed me that the nature of that medium has an impact on all the other activities that surround it.

Quote from: two_fishes;506595The kids aren't as good with collaboration. They can be imaginative, sure, but they have no respect for genre or thematic consistency. I do think the collaborative aspect of RPGs is one of the best aspects of it.

I agree, but do TRPGs require collaboration as it's defined here to work? I'm uncertain.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;506659For me, the greatest strength of tabletop roleplaying games is that actual play is a synergy of the imaginations of the participants, the structure of the rules, and the stochasticity of the dice.

The devil is in the details.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;506659For me, the greatest weakness of tabletop roleplaying games is that they tend to attract narcissitic twats who want to tell a story rather than play a game.

Narcissistic or not, it's definitely a case of someone treating the TRPG medium as if it were the classic literary one.

if I can be said to have any agenda at all, it would be to eliminate this kind of play, and encourage unresolved 'situational' writing instead of plots with specific events. I mean, I don't want to call BWF on this, but this kind of play literally ISN'T SUPPORTED BY THE TRPG MEDIUM! It just plain doesn't work unless you're a really good Mentalist and can force choice on your audience, which isn't really that difficult to do if you know how, but what would be the point?

Quote from: gonster;506752The weakness of rpgs is that it depends on the ability level of the GM.  A GM can be trained to be better, but his highest level of accomplishment is dependent on native skill sets.

I find that a TRPG depends on EVERYONE being a good citizen. One bad faith actor (as in element, not theater performer), whether Player or GM, can ruin the game for everyone.

So I do not think it all comes down to the GM's ability. I've had great games with poor GMs because I was working with great players.

Quote from: RPGPundit;507014The OP's question is too broad.

In my defense I didn't have room to specifically ask about tabletop RPGs in the post title.

And it's not like we can't narrow this down in discussion. Discussions like this are designed to refine ideas, not present absolutes.

Quote from: Ian Warner;506479Creative freedom that will never be parelleled by any other media.

I don't know, man. Other players are always compromising your artistic vision. Moreover, if you are playing a published game, you're boxed in from the start.

I'd say writing your own poetry/literature/music/etc has RPGs beat. Whatever you want. No limits.

Quote from: 1989;509011I don't know, man. Other players are always compromising your artistic vision. Moreover, if you are playing a published game, you're boxed in from the start.

If you want to experience this sort of frustration magnified by 100X write and direct a short film. Every fucking decision you make will be questioned- every.fucking.one and I mean things as bullshit as taping a mic cable to a tripod or shooting things from a certain angel. It is fucking maddening because as with anything the people who think they know the most are the ones who have never even so much as looked at a camera before.
I hope to do it again soon.

RPG medium?

Medium for what?  Gaming?  So, really - your question is what are the differences between board games, war games, video games, larp and tabletop rpg games?

I don't think it's a medium.  I think it's it's own thing.

Quote from: Aos;509024If you want to experience this sort of frustration magnified by 100X write and direct a short film. Every fucking decision you make will be questioned- every.fucking.one and I mean things as bullshit as taping a mic cable to a tripod or shooting things from a certain angel. It is fucking maddening because as with anything the people who think they know the most are the ones who have never even so much as looked at a camera before.
I hope to do it again soon.

True that.

Quote from: chaosvoyager;509007In my defense I didn't have room to specifically ask about tabletop RPGs in the post title.

And it's not like we can't narrow this down in discussion. Discussions like this are designed to refine ideas, not present absolutes.

You could have elaborated on the subject to your heart's content in the OP, though.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Blackhand;509025RPG medium?

Medium for what?  Gaming?  So, really - your question is what are the differences between board games, war games, video games, larp and tabletop rpg games?

I don't think it's a medium.  I think it's it's own thing.

Tabletop RPGs are definitely a medium to itself. What it offers is the ability to immerse yourself into times and places that you can't access and interact with what you find there.  It's a fantastic (pun intended) life-experience medium.

Quote from: Bradford C. Walker;509728It's a fantastic (pun intended) life-experience medium.

Hm. I like this. That's well put.

Quote from: Bradford C. Walker;509728Tabletop RPGs are definitely a medium to itself. What it offers is the ability to immerse yourself into times and places that you can't access and interact with what you find there.  It's a fantastic (pun intended) life-experience medium.

Medium for life experience?  If you are thinking your games will help you survive in the real world, you might be one of those people who genuinely need help.  

There is no such thing as a 'medium' for 'life experience' and you're misusing the word 'medium'.

It's not a 'medium' for anything.

I assume that when you say 'medium' you are attempting to conflate RPG's with some sort of art.  While there could (conceivably) be an argument that RPG's are art, I have to say (in my opionion as an artist) that they are not.  For me, the art part is the writing and painting I do, not the actual play.

Roleplaying Games are not an art form.  I'm sorry.  It's not interpretive dance, it's not music and it's not sculpture or painting or even prose.  No one else in the world cares how awesome and beautiful my roll to defeat the troll was, or whether or not the other players thought my plan of ambush was awesome enough to execute.

Unless you mean that RPG's are inherently psychic and can channel spirits.  To which I say - there's a better argument for that.

I think what the OP is talking about is how the HOBBY stands up to other HOBBIES such as video games, sports, board games, CCG's, MMO's and tabletop wargames.  Before you get started, of those - a few could be considered art, but just barely and not really as a whole.

Quote from: Blackhand;509821Medium for life experience?  If you are thinking your games will help you survive in the real world, you might be one of those people who genuinely need help.  

That's not what he means.

Quote from: Benoist;509827That's not what he means.

Care to elaborate?

The strength of the TTRPG as a form of play is the GM, having which allows you to improvise responses to presented scenarios.

Everything else about TTRPGs is mostly just making occasional use of side-activities to service the primary goal. Writing, to produce scenarios, which are presented to the players, who play the game by responding to them. Acting, which is how the players sometimes communicate their responses to the scenarios. Visual arts, which is how some scenario information is sometimes provided to the players. Music, which is occasionally used to set mood.

The roleplaying game is a 'medium' only in the very loosest figurative sense of the word.