Quote from: Ghost;1096160In SR it's called "neoanarchy."

No, no, no... It's called Magicrun or Elfrun, because if you want real power you go Magic and never look back.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1095091This may be the most idiotic thing you've said on this forum, and that's saying a lot.

Punk has ALWAYS been internally divided between Anarchist-Right, Anarchist-Left, and Anarchists-who-don't-give-a-fuck-about-politics.

Notably, the two most famous original Punk bands were Anarchist-Right (the Ramones) and Anarchist-neutral (The Sex Pistols).

I did mention that the Ramones were right-wing, but guys like The Ramones or The Sex Pistols were the exception in punk, not the norm.

Anarchism in and of itself is a very left-wing ideology despite what whiny AnCaps may say.

Since Punk is inherently an anarchist subculture, then naturally there would be a strong undercurrent of far-left orthodoxy, which explains the existence of ANTIFA, dangerhairs, and the overall inclination towards Anarcho-Communist bullshit.

... anarchism is ideally supposed to be "stateless". Leftism ideally is trying to be non-hierarchical.

The problem is - in order to enforce a non-hierarchical order of pure egalitarianism, despite the natural biological drive for humans (and most animals) to form hierarchical structures, there is no known example of a "leftist" government that is non-hierarchical that doesn't create the very antithesis of what anarchism is demanding.

I have *no idea* wtf an "anarcho-communist" is other than a communist LARPing as an anarch in direct response to some perceived structure. At which point if they are successful, naturally they become the new boss, which is where they drop the "anarch" part and go full blast authoritarian/totalitarian twat-mode.

The premise of "cyberpunk" *usually* is the assumption of strong corporatism control run amok (crony-capitalism on gamma-irradiated steroids), with varying degrees of Government decay. I almost want to say that "civilization" is already in a state of anarchy on the fringe. So the "punk" is already happening. People are doing shit with technology, their lives, etc. on the fringe. These people are outliers/fodder/useful idiots only insofar as they don't upset the status-quo and keep consuming goods in their ever-shrinking consumer-lives.

People live in small boxes of pre-fab shit, leading pre-fab lives. In most cases these would be the NPC's of the world - and maybe where you start.

Your premise of "Taking the Punk Out" - would have to change all of these basic conceits. Drop the political shit. You're showing that you're only skimming the surface of these things, not looking into deeper ramifications that justify the genre. The cyberpunk genre encapsulates these ideas by showing the status-quo based on the premises of the high-to-the-low, the genre embraces it, not reforms it. Very rarely do you see cyberpunk genre heroes "winning", because that's not the point. They might score Pyrrhic victories, or small personal wins, but the world is dogshit before and after. Sometimes it's worse. "Punk" is not a political movement - no matter what people want to pretend (not a serious one). It's an expression in direct relation to the perceived status-quo.

Antifa are larpers that are pretending to be freedom fighters, fighting against Nazis that only exist in their minds. They're low-Empathy authoritarian little assholes. Calling them "punks" is probably a step up.

Quote from: tenbones;1096356... anarchism is ideally supposed to be "stateless". Leftism ideally is trying to be non-hierarchical.

The problem is - in order to enforce a non-hierarchical order of pure egalitarianism, despite the natural biological drive for humans (and most animals) to form hierarchical structures, there is no known example of a "leftist" government that is non-hierarchical that doesn't create the very antithesis of what anarchism is demanding.

I have *no idea* wtf an "anarcho-communist" is other than a communist LARPing as an anarch in direct response to some perceived structure. At which point if they are successful, naturally they become the new boss, which is where they drop the "anarch" part and go full blast authoritarian/totalitarian twat-mode.

The premise of "cyberpunk" *usually* is the assumption of strong corporatism control run amok (crony-capitalism on gamma-irradiated steroids), with varying degrees of Government decay. I almost want to say that "civilization" is already in a state of anarchy on the fringe. So the "punk" is already happening. People are doing shit with technology, their lives, etc. on the fringe. These people are outliers/fodder/useful idiots only insofar as they don't upset the status-quo and keep consuming goods in their ever-shrinking consumer-lives.

People live in small boxes of pre-fab shit, leading pre-fab lives. In most cases these would be the NPC's of the world - and maybe where you start.

Your premise of "Taking the Punk Out" - would have to change all of these basic conceits. Drop the political shit. You're showing that you're only skimming the surface of these things, not looking into deeper ramifications that justify the genre. The cyberpunk genre encapsulates these ideas by showing the status-quo based on the premises of the high-to-the-low, the genre embraces it, not reforms it. Very rarely do you see cyberpunk genre heroes "winning", because that's not the point. They might score Pyrrhic victories, or small personal wins, but the world is dogshit before and after. Sometimes it's worse. "Punk" is not a political movement - no matter what people want to pretend (not a serious one). It's an expression in direct relation to the perceived status-quo.

Antifa are larpers that are pretending to be freedom fighters, fighting against Nazis that only exist in their minds. They're low-Empathy authoritarian little assholes. Calling them "punks" is probably a step up.

Hmm, fair point.

I think this thread has taught me that I shouldn't "take the punk out of Cyberpunk" but instead keep the whiny punks LARP'ing as transhumanist commies (such as David "Olivia" Hill) away from Cyberpunk and trying to claim it as "theirs"

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1096374Hmm, fair point.

I think this thread has taught me that I shouldn't "take the punk out of Cyberpunk" but instead keep the whiny punks LARP'ing as transhumanist commies (such as David "Olivia" Hill) away from Cyberpunk and trying to claim it as "theirs"

No. You should take your vision of Cybermetal - and make it happen. Don't worry about what other people do in their games. At no point in my gaming history has someone outside my group and what they're doing in their game in some negative fashion informed me of how to enjoy my games with my group.

Otherwise you're trying to be just like what you think they're being (which may or may not be true).

Quote from: tenbones;1096382No. You should take your vision of Cybermetal - and make it happen. Don't worry about what other people do in their games. At no point in my gaming history has someone outside my group and what they're doing in their game in some negative fashion informed me of how to enjoy my games with my group.

Otherwise you're trying to be just like what you think they're being (which may or may not be true).

Don't worry, I will make Cybermetal happen!

I think I may have found a new creative streak in building the world of Cybermetal, because I've been writing down a lot of ideas for material.

Quote from: A5paperboy;1095103Taking the punk out of cyberpunk just means taking away the vaporware 80's-esque An-cap aesthetic.

Think making a setting that's basically the regular world + cybernetics and shit.
No NWO evil corporations, or extraterritoriality, or anarcho-communist biker gangs, or wageslaving.

In short bland and not really all that super interesting to play in.

Quote from: Omega;1096080They are too clean societies to really be cyberpunk. Its more a blue-collar and up crime drama, with the occasional rampaging robot. Not enough grunge and street-level crime as it were. In a way it feels like a setting that has recently shrugged off its cyberpunk shackles and is staggering towards the light. Much like Appleseed+Tank Police.

I agree with jeff you are jumping the shark on this you don't need to have the thing dealing with crack heads on a day to day basis to be cyberpunk and you don't even need to have seen AD police remember the sexroids trying to escape in bubble gum crisis ? Heck even Babylon 5 had a lot of cyber punk in it even though the story didn't normally go that direction. The thing is both shows are told from a blue collar work level but that dose not disqualify them as cyberpunk. For that matter seeing the world from the relatively normal blue collar level can make dealing or touching on the greater problems more impactful.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1096146I think there is a deliniation between western literature Cyberpunk (Gibson, Williams) and eastern Anime/Manga Cyberpunk. (Shirow, et al.)

Yes and no they are both different in style but they are both still cyberpunk.

Quote from: kosmos1214;1096422The thing is both shows are told from a blue collar work level but that dose not disqualify them as cyberpunk. For that matter seeing the world from the relatively normal blue collar level can make dealing or touching on the greater problems more impactful.
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Yes and no they are both different in style but they are both still cyberpunk.

I disagree in general, event tough i admit that you have an obvious point.

The reason for my disagreement, is that you, as well as several others, makes the frequent mistake of thinking of genres like countries that has clear borders.
They are not.
They are more like circles in multiple Venn diagrams, with overlapping areas with other things .... and even more, those circles are often not even boundaries, but areas of influence, where the further away you get from the center, the less traction you get.

Bubblegum Crisis is within the "Cyberpunk" influence, yes, but it also is within the Mecha, the Superhero(possibly even the Super Sentai sub-genre), and the General Sci-fi Influences just as much, if not more.
This is what a lot here is forgetting.

Practically, if you take the punk out of Cyberpunk, you might still have some "Punk-like" things in it.
As i see it, Bubblegum Crisis has only very little "Punk", as ... sure, as some pointed out, there are prostitution, criminality, and misery, but mind you, that is not automatically "punk", as this do NOT affect the Main Characters On A Daily Basis !
And as such, it would also fit Rock, Noir, or even "Low Fantasy".... or why not "Grunge" ...
In some ways it would fit Goth as well.
I'd call Bubblegum Crisis "CyberRock", as it has several trappings of Cyberpunk, but it is far from hopeless, ans the Main Characters start out as ... heh ... Knights, skilled and armed to the teeth already.