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Spawning off from another thread.  Doc Sammy suggests

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1092201It's high time we take the "Punk" out of Cyberpunk.

It's worth exploring.

What does the "punk" in CP mean?
What would CP look without it?
Has it been done before?
If so, what movies,  books,  or other media capture is essence?

Quote from: Aglondir;1092388What does the "punk" in CP mean?
What would CP look without it?
Has it been done before?
If so, what movies,  books,  or other media capture is essence?

The punk aspect of "cyberpunk" I believe is the whole "stick it to the man" vibe that it has, where corporations are all greedy jerks keeping the people down and getting rich off of their suffering etc.

Basically any setting with a bunch of cybernetic enhancements could fit, especially when they're a new-ish technology and still not solid in how it fits in morally to the world. Probably keep it in the near-ish future.

I'm actually not sure how "punk" the Deus Ex setting really is. Somewhat - but not all corporations are exploitative etc. At the very least the Deus Ex games are rather lite on the "punk" half of the cyberpunk genre.

While the first movie was borderline, I don't think that the Ghost in the Shell show really qualifies for the "punk" aspect at all since the main characters are actually working for a government agency, albeit one which often uncovers various corruption in corporations and other government agencies.

There are other sci-fi I can think of with cyborgs which have zero punk, but they're further future with space travel etc., and that probably pushes it into an entirely different genre.

"Punk is nothing but death … and crime … and the RAGE of a beast."--Batman

That is about all I have to contribute to this discussion. :)

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1092397"Punk is nothing but death … and crime … and the RAGE of a beast."--Batman

That is about all I have to contribute to this discussion. :)

Batman was right on the money with that observation

The main issue with the Cyberpunk 2077 controversy is that SJW's are convinced they own Cyberpunk as a genre since they also dominate the Punk subculture.

I think if we remove the punk subculture elements in the Cyberpunk genre, the SJW's won't have a leg to stand on at all in their ridiculous claims.

I'm all for "sticking it to The Man" but in this day and age, the leftist punks are "The Man"

Interestingly, it sounds like when Bruce Bethke coined the word, he was actually trying to invent a term for hacker kids rather than punk rockers (I suppose "hacker" wasn't widely known in 1980):

QuoteThe kids who trashed my computer; their kids were going to be Holy Terrors, combining the ethical vacuity of teenagers with a technical fluency we adults could only guess at....

How did I actually create the word? The way any new word comes into being, I guess: through synthesis. I took a handful of roots--cyber, techno, et al--mixed them up with a bunch of terms for socially misdirected youth, and tried out the various combinations until one just plain sounded right.

You know what you get when you take the "Punk" out of Cyberpunk?

Transhumanism and all the stupid wankery that lawncrappers like SJWs turn it into.

It's a reaction to commercialization on a cultural level. Which is why it has an extremely strong DIY aesthetic. It's about taking what "the Man" has given us - and doing our own thing with it.

Punk doesn't necessarily about "crime" in some overt way - it's creative destruction against the status-quo. Taking the "punk" out of cyberpunk has some pretty massive implications to the setting. Cyberpunk *is* a direct reaction to assumptions of the world. If you remove it...

1) Then it means either the populace just is going along with whatever the situation is as handed down by the oligarchical corporate powers. So 1984, Brazil, Zero Theorem, etc. an authoritarian/totalitarian dystopia.
2) Or everything is right as rain. And technology flourishes. Everyone is generally happy. You have proto-Star Trek. The issue here becomes - you have low-level sci-fi and need a conflict. Which could be interesting.
3) Or... sci-fi superheroes?

Quote from: jeff37923;1092407You know what you get when you take the "Punk" out of Cyberpunk?

Transhumanism and all the stupid wankery that lawncrappers like SJWs turn it into.

Nowadays, the Punks are the transhumanists and SJW's.

That's why the SJW's and transtrenders are throwing bitch fits about Cyberpunk 2077 and how Cyberpunk culture is somehow "theirs" because the punk subculture actually does belong to them.

Even if the "punk" in cyberpunk was not related to the subculture at all, the lefty punks still see the genre as "theirs" because of the worst thing to ever come out of the culture of the 1970's.

I'm all for defying authority and tyranny, but in this day and age, the punk subculture (or more accurately, Punk's bastard daughter subcultures such as hipsters and dangerhairs) are the authoritarian tyrants that need to be rebelled against and opposed.

In a perfect world, the 70's would have ended with Punk dying and Disco surviving instead of the other way around.

Quote from: tenbones;1092408It's a reaction to commercialization on a cultural level. Which is why it has an extremely strong DIY aesthetic. It's about taking what "the Man" has given us - and doing our own thing with it.

Punk doesn't necessarily about "crime" in some overt way - it's creative destruction against the status-quo. Taking the "punk" out of cyberpunk has some pretty massive implications to the setting. Cyberpunk *is* a direct reaction to assumptions of the world. If you remove it...

1) Then it means either the populace just is going along with whatever the situation is as handed down by the oligarchical corporate powers. So 1984, Brazil, Zero Theorem, etc. an authoritarian/totalitarian dystopia.
2) Or everything is right as rain. And technology flourishes. Everyone is generally happy. You have proto-Star Trek. The issue here becomes - you have low-level sci-fi and need a conflict. Which could be interesting.
3) Or... sci-fi superheroes?

When I say we should take the Punk out of Cyberpunk, I am not referring to the theme of rebellious defiance against the status quo.

I am specifically referring to the trappings and aesthetics of the Punk subculture and its Millennial descendants instead.

Given that the Punk subculture is rooted in far-left orthodoxy and ideological purity spirals, both of which are the dominant creative authorities today, I'd say the most "punk" thing to do is to attack and rebel against the punk subculture and its leftist and transhumanist trappings.

While there were noted exceptions such as Johnny Ramone (conservative libertarian), Skrewdriver (Neo-Nazi scumbags), and GG Allin (shock-jock edgelord) it would be a lie to say that Punk wasn't always a far-left subculture.

In its heyday, it was mostly left-wing while nowadays punk is exclusively left-wing as are most of its bastard children (excluding the Goths, who were founded as explicitly apolitical and individualist in nature)

Basically, my idea for the perfect Cyberpunk setting is one where the Transhumanists, SJW's, Punks, and Neo-Communists are "The Man" that needs to be rebelled against

In essence, the perfect 2010's Cyberpunk story is one where the "punks" are the dystopian status quo and the real rebels oppose the punks and their trappings.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1092397"Punk is nothing but death ... and crime ... and the RAGE of a beast."--Batman

That is about all I have to contribute to this discussion. :)

To me, punk was always a rather childish "I hate you mommy and daddy!"

Quote from: Trond;1092417To me, punk was always a rather childish "I hate you mommy and daddy!"

This guy gets it.

Punk ideology and subculture can best be summed up as "Fuck you, Mommy and Daddy!"

Quote from: jeff37923;1092407You know what you get when you take the "Punk" out of Cyberpunk?

Transhumanism and all the stupid wankery that lawncrappers like SJWs turn it into.

Lawncrappers = Tipper Gore

Cyberpunk fans = Biafra Jello

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1092422Lawncrappers = Tipper Gore

Cyberpunk fans = Ronnie James Dio

Fixed that for you.

Metalheads are the true rebels in my book, especially in this day and age where the Punks have become "The Man" for all intents and purposes.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1092423Fixed that for you.

Metalheads are the true rebels in my book, especially in this day and age where the Punks have become "The Man" for all intents and purposes.

The punks can't become the man, anymore than you can make liberalism into authoritarianism. The Punks is short hand for those raging against the machine and refusing to go quiet into the night.

You can of course stop being a Punk and become "The Man". Some other Punks will come to rebel against you, from every walk of life if you're shitty enough (as we see with the baizuo)

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1092405I think if we remove the punk subculture elements in the Cyberpunk genre, the SJW's won't have a leg to stand on at all in their ridiculous claims.

I'm all for "sticking it to The Man" but in this day and age, the leftist punks are "The Man"

Dumping the Punk just turns the genre into vanilla sci-fi.

Putting leftists as the authoritarians is certainly fitting for a modern take on Cyberpunk. I'm sure it could be done with themes like eco-terrorism, and corporations that use progressive ideas to sell their bullshit, and control their employees. (Have you been to sensitivity training this month?) Heh, a woke battle between Arasaka and Militech would be amusing. Accusing each other of discrimination and paying their women employees less than the men.

Doc Sammy, if you can track down a copy of Main lines, blood feasts, and bad taste by Lester Bangs, you might appreciate his writing on the roots of punk:

QuoteThe roots of punk was the first time a kid ended up living with his parents till he was 40...Punk is stupid proud consumerism. Punk is oblivion when it isn't even fun and unlike winos you do have a choice in fact: you're young. Punk is ten thousand tattered skin magazines under your bed but never getting any satisfaction from masturbation...

He goes on and on like that. the guy knew how to rant.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1092405Batman was right on the money with that observation

The main issue with the Cyberpunk 2077 controversy is that SJW's are convinced they own Cyberpunk as a genre since they also dominate the Punk subculture.

I think if we remove the punk subculture elements in the Cyberpunk genre, the SJW's won't have a leg to stand on at all in their ridiculous claims.

I'm all for "sticking it to The Man" but in this day and age, the leftist punks are "The Man"

So your solution is to let "them" win by giving them half the genre?

Quote from: pdboddy;1092428So your solution is to let "them" win by giving them half the genre?

You can keep the spirit of the genre even if you remove the punk subculture aesthetics and trappings.

Rebellion need not come in the form of dyed hair and piercings.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1092429You can keep the spirit of the genre even if you remove the punk subculture aesthetics and trappings.

Rebellion need not come in the form of dyed hair and piercings.

Sure, but the punk subcultural aesthetics and trappings you're talking about are:
1.) Aesthetic, so I guess it just comes down to your fashion preferences.
2.) Henry Rollins/Black Flag, Ian MacKaye, Jello Biafra, the Buzzcocks, The Descendents, Bad Brains... for the most part there are a ton of bands with normal looking folks in them that are or were definitely punk by any definition. For them, too, rebellion did not come in the form of dyed hair and piercings. I mean, Rollins has a thick neck, and the Bad Brains did the whole rasta thing, but the point stands. Basically, "Punk Fashion" & "Punk Ethos" are separate things.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1092413Nowadays, the Punks are the transhumanists and SJW's.

That's why the SJW's and transtrenders are throwing bitch fits about Cyberpunk 2077 and how Cyberpunk culture is somehow "theirs" because the punk subculture actually does belong to them.

Even if the "punk" in cyberpunk was not related to the subculture at all, the lefty punks still see the genre as "theirs" because of the worst thing to ever come out of the culture of the 1970's.

I'm all for defying authority and tyranny, but in this day and age, the punk subculture (or more accurately, Punk's bastard daughter subcultures such as hipsters and dangerhairs) are the authoritarian tyrants that need to be rebelled against and opposed.

In a perfect world, the 70's would have ended with Punk dying and Disco surviving instead of the other way around.

Doc, the only reason why you have this deranged opinion is because the closest you ever came to the punk subculture was online by way of a wikipedia article.


If you take the punk out of cyberpunk, you get transhumanism. Why? because while cyberpunk as a genre can be summed up as "high tech low life", transhumanism as a a genre can be summed up as "human evolution via high tech".  When you apply these discussions to Real Life, you get identity theft rings for cyberpunk and you get morons on tBP telling each other how awesome it would be to download your male consciousness into a female body for transhumanism.

Quote from: jeff37923;1092435Doc, the only reason why you have this deranged opinion is because the closest you ever came to the punk subculture was online by way of a wikipedia article.


If you take the punk out of cyberpunk, you get transhumanism. Why? because while cyberpunk as a genre can be summed up as "high tech low life", transhumanism as a a genre can be summed up as "human evolution via high tech".  When you apply these discussions to Real Life, you get identity theft rings for cyberpunk and you get morons on tBP telling each other how awesome it would be to download your male consciousness into a female body for transhumanism.

Transhumanism is Gnosticism. Cyberpunk isn't.

Transhumanism separates mind from body, deifies mind, and calls the body disposable.

Cyberpunk, among many other things, highlights the link between mind and body, and the effects that body modification has on the mind.

In transhumanism, playing God works. In cyberpunk, it doesn't.

Quote from: pdboddy;1092428So your solution is to let "them" win by giving them half the genre?

Fuck Sammy. He's fun for a larf, but most of his posts are terrible over-reactions and childish hyperbole.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1092413When I say we should take the Punk out of Cyberpunk, I am not referring to the theme of rebellious defiance against the status quo.

I am specifically referring to the trappings and aesthetics of the Punk subculture and its Millennial descendants instead.

Given that the Punk subculture is rooted in far-left orthodoxy and ideological purity spirals, both of which are the dominant creative authorities today, I'd say the most "punk" thing to do is to attack and rebel against the punk subculture and its leftist and transhumanist trappings.

This is just self-contradictory. On one hand it's all specifically about "trappings and aesthetics", then in the very next sentence you're going railing against punk politics (as you understand them). Then, in another comment you go on about how you wish punk died instead of disco in the '70s.

You do know that disco is ground zero for a good portion of your hated left-wing politics as well, right? Like, if you're talking identity politics, especially as relates to non-straight folks... disco was there. Then the "death of disco" really just led to techno, house, trance, raves and all of that business. On the "aesthetics" front, that's quite the rabbit hole that ends in copious amounts of glitter and baby pacifiers.

Not that there's anything wrong with that. :)

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1092413When I say we should take the Punk out of Cyberpunk, I am not referring to the theme of rebellious defiance against the status quo.

I am specifically referring to the trappings and aesthetics of the Punk subculture and its Millennial descendants instead.

Given that the Punk subculture is rooted in far-left orthodoxy and ideological purity spirals, both of which are the dominant creative authorities today, I'd say the most "punk" thing to do is to attack and rebel against the punk subculture and its leftist and transhumanist trappings.

This is just self-contradictory. On one hand it's all specifically about "trappings and aesthetics", then in the very next sentence you're going railing against punk politics (as you understand them). Then in another comment you go on about how you wish punk died instead of disco in the '70s.

You do know that disco is ground zero for a good portion of your hated left-wing politics as well, right? Like, if you're talking identity politics, especially as relates to non-straight folks... disco was there. Then the "death of disco" really just led to techno, house, trance, raves and all of that business. On the "aesthetics" front, that's quite the rabbit hole that ends in copious amounts of glitter and baby pacifiers.

Not that there's anything wrong with that. :)

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1092429You can keep the spirit of the genre even if you remove the punk subculture aesthetics and trappings.

Rebellion need not come in the form of dyed hair and piercings.

Dyed hair and piercings are the precursors to cyberpunk, though.  They lead directly to replacing parts of your body with mechanical replacements.

No punk, no neon glow, no replacing your meat with metal.  I need my cyberpunk to be neon and chrome, man.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1092438Fuck Sammy. He's fun for a larf, but most of his posts are terrible over-reactions and childish hyperbole.

Really?

I don't remember Antifa being born out of Disco, but it sure as hell began in the Punk scene.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1092444Really?

I don't remember Antifa being born out of Disco, but it sure as hell began in the Punk scene.

Since antifa is a rather loosely associated collection of groups rather than one 'united' group, it's entirely possible that they have sprung from a variety of scenes.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1092444Really?

I don't remember Antifa being born out of Disco, but it sure as hell began in the Punk scene.

Prove to us that Antifa came from the Punk scene.

Quote from: pdboddy;1092447Since antifa is a rather loosely associated collection of groups rather than one 'united' group, it's entirely possible that they have sprung from a variety of scenes.

So now we're at Punk music bad because group X liked it? LOL

Those who fight monsters and all that.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1092444Really?

I don't remember Antifa being born out of Disco, but it sure as hell began in the Punk scene.

Antifa (by name) was born in Weimar, Germany in the 30's.

Rejecting punk because of it's antifa associations is like rejecting Disco because of it's association with drug use and promiscuity. If I were to engage in childish hyperbole, I might say that Disco gave us coke-heads and AIDS.

Quote from: jeff37923;1092448Prove to us that Antifa came from the Punk scene.

I actually did a quick google to make sure I wasn't going to step on my own foot. (Generally a good idea.)

QuoteModern antifa politics can be traced to opposition to the infiltration of Britain's punk scene by white power skinheads in the 1970s and 1980s, and the emergence of neo-Nazism in Germany following the fall of the Berlin Wall.[24] In Germany, young leftists, including anarchists and punk fans, renewed the practice of street-level anti-fascism.[24] Columnist Peter Beinart writes that "in the late '80s, left-wing punk fans in the United States began following suit, though they initially called their groups Anti-Racist Action (ARA) on the theory that Americans would be more familiar with fighting racism than they would be with fighting fascism."[24]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antifa_(United_States)

Gotta hand it to Sammy when he does make a cogent point.

But it's also good to keep in mind they were resisting white power skinheads. So, like anything, it's a bit more complicated than "Fuck Punk".

Quote from: jeff37923;1092448Prove to us that Antifa came from the Punk scene.

Obviously because both groups wear black and no one likes them?

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1092454I actually did a quick google to make sure I wasn't going to step on my own foot. (Generally a good idea.)



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antifa_(United_States)

Gotta hand it to Sammy when he does make a cogent point.

But it's also good to keep in mind they were resisting white power skinheads. So, like anything, it's a bit more complicated than "Fuck Punk".

Now that is understandable, punk in the UK was a political and social statement (if you think poverty is ugly, then we will show you how ugly we can be) while in the US it was fashion and social statement (borrowing from the UK and rebellion against the corporate manufactured music scene being pushed). I knew several SHARPs (SkinHeads Against Racial Prejudice) in our punk scene back in the day and it was a natural refutation of the Nazi punks.

I still think that Doc Sammy was only accidentally correct in his diatribe.

Quote from: pdboddy;1092457Obviously because both groups wear black and no one likes them?

Antifa wear masks to hide their identity while most punk protesters I knew wanted to be identified and gain a little fame (for what basically amounted to 'street cred'.

EDIT: Which, come to think of it, fits in really well with Cyberpunk 2020 because of the Reputation mechanic in the game.

Quote from: Aglondir;1092388Spawning off from another thread.  Doc Sammy suggests



It's worth exploring.

What does the "punk" in CP mean?
What would CP look without it?
Has it been done before?
If so, what movies,  books,  or other media capture is essence?

You know. Punk is just the "oh, you mean it's just fiction" part of the genre label. If you remove "punk" from all the others, what happens to them?

Like Steam, for instance. Kind of loses it's meaning.

I guess you can add "Horror" after Cyber and Steam, and see what if any changes happen in the genre?

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;1092469You know. Punk is just the "oh, you mean it's just fiction" part of the genre label. If you remove "punk" from all the others, what happens to them?

Like Steam, for instance. Kind of loses it's meaning.

I guess you can add "Horror" after Cyber and Steam, and see what if any changes happen in the genre?

There's something to this. I don't see what the "punk" part is in steampunk. It's steam fantasy really.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1092454I actually did a quick google to make sure I wasn't going to step on my own foot. (Generally a good idea.)



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antifa_(United_States)

Gotta hand it to Sammy when he does make a cogent point.

But it's also good to keep in mind they were resisting white power skinheads. So, like anything, it's a bit more complicated than "Fuck Punk".

True, but the skinheads were also a byproduct of the Punk scene, which is another component of my "pox on all their houses" attitudes towards the Punk subculture and its derivatives.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1092413Nowadays, the Punks are the transhumanists and SJW's.

By definition - no. 1) There are people that like the idea of transhumanists. There are NO practicing transhumanists other than people that larp that while mutilating themselves. 2) SJW's are useful idiots of the establishment, they're not rebelling against the establishment. They *are* the establishment.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1092413That's why the SJW's and transtrenders are throwing bitch fits about Cyberpunk 2077 and how Cyberpunk culture is somehow "theirs" because the punk subculture actually does belong to them.

No. They're throwing a bitchfit because 1) That is how their religion heaps praise upon them: by finding the sins at all costs and pointing it out. 2) They don't understand or consume this material. They don't understand it. They know very little about it. Or lack the capacity, willfully, to understand anything that goes beyond their transgression points of their ideology.

The irony is - in Cyberpunk 2020 one of the downfalls of of America was the catering to special interest groups, along with corporate greed and political corruption, setting the US up for a massive financial collapse that ultimately destroys America and takes a good chunk of the world with it (economically). "Punk" culture is not owned by SJW's. They may larp it. But simply put - if we lived in the CP2020 universe, those SJW's that weren't already living in security zones because of their wealthy folks, would probably be dead, or being trafficked, or something horrible.

The "punks" are the ones that *despite* the many social issues rise up against the status-quo. SJW's are largely the white privileged kids that would be harmed the most by such circumstances. Which makes them useful idiots to the true benefactors of such a climate.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1092413Even if the "punk" in cyberpunk was not related to the subculture at all, the lefty punks still see the genre as "theirs" because of the worst thing to ever come out of the culture of the 1970's.

I'm all for defying authority and tyranny, but in this day and age, the punk subculture (or more accurately, Punk's bastard daughter subcultures such as hipsters and dangerhairs) are the authoritarian tyrants that need to be rebelled against and opposed.

So if this is the premise of your game. You're talking about Punkwars. Real punks vs. Establishment Posers.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1092413In a perfect world, the 70's would have ended with Punk dying and Disco surviving instead of the other way around.

As someone that actually lived through that era, with family pretty deep in the scene (DJ's etc.) I can unequivocally tell you now: Disco like all pop culture music, has a short life-span and little value in real political terms. It serves only as bread and circuses for the masses. If you're talking in terms of cyberpunk... then your anime wonderland of cyberpunk-themed shit is more prevalent than any other form of it. Why are you complaining?

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1092413When I say we should take the Punk out of Cyberpunk, I am not referring to the theme of rebellious defiance against the status quo.

I am specifically referring to the trappings and aesthetics of the Punk subculture and its Millennial descendants instead.

Have you ever actually *read* the Cyberpunk 2020 books? Have you read *any* of the source-material: Sterling, Gibson, Rucker, Williams, Effinger etc? I'm not sure you actually understand what you're talking about vs. what you're advocating for. The trappings and aesthetics of the punk subculture isn't simply that of the 70's. It's literally anything and everything else plus that, on roids, taken to extremes. *Because* the world has fractured under the weight of globalism and corporate totalitarian corruption. Your simplistic view of it - and I can't tell if you're speaking about the game or the genre, is intensely simplistic. It's like "I don't want DC comic books in this box." And the box is the remnants of a comicbook store that has been on fire for days after a tiny nuke was dropped locally to kill the survivors of a carbon-nano-plague that was introduced to be tested on the populace of a city's sub-division.

It simply is baffling to me that you're focused on one of the most insignificant aspects of the genre - a surface appearance rather than the actual *meat* of what it's about. It's like saying D&D is dogshit because halfling's have curly brown hair on their feet. And you don't like curls or brown hair because it offends you. Heh.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1092413Given that the Punk subculture is rooted in far-left orthodoxy and ideological purity spirals, both of which are the dominant creative authorities today, I'd say the most "punk" thing to do is to attack and rebel against the punk subculture and its leftist and transhumanist trappings.

While there were noted exceptions such as Johnny Ramone (conservative libertarian), Skrewdriver (Neo-Nazi scumbags), and GG Allin (shock-jock edgelord) it would be a lie to say that Punk wasn't always a far-left subculture.

I can't see the picture you're trying to paint with the colossal brush you're painting with here. It's ginormous in scope. And it's granting far more gravity to the punk-movement than it ever deserved or had.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1092413In its heyday, it was mostly left-wing while nowadays punk is exclusively left-wing as are most of its bastard children (excluding the Goths, who were founded as explicitly apolitical and individualist in nature)

It's a pop fad to the reaction of the times. Nothing more. Nothing less. The *circumstances* that created it are as important as the topic itself. You don't have one without the other. The rebels of the 50's were not the same as the 60's or the 70's... each form was their own brand in conjunction with the circumstances of their time.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1092413Basically, my idea for the perfect Cyberpunk setting is one where the Transhumanists, SJW's, Punks, and Neo-Communists are "The Man" that needs to be rebelled against

In essence, the perfect 2010's Cyberpunk story is one where the "punks" are the dystopian status quo and the real rebels oppose the punks and their trappings.

Gee. This sounds like Cyberpunk 2020 at street level.

Quote from: tenbones;1092487By definition - no. 1) There are people that like the idea of transhumanists. There are NO practicing transhumanists other than people that larp that while mutilating themselves. 2) SJW's are useful idiots of the establishment, they're not rebelling against the establishment. They *are* the establishment.



No. They're throwing a bitchfit because 1) That is how their religion heaps praise upon them: by finding the sins at all costs and pointing it out. 2) They don't understand or consume this material. They don't understand it. They know very little about it. Or lack the capacity, willfully, to understand anything that goes beyond their transgression points of their ideology.

The irony is - in Cyberpunk 2020 one of the downfalls of of America was the catering to special interest groups, along with corporate greed and political corruption, setting the US up for a massive financial collapse that ultimately destroys America and takes a good chunk of the world with it (economically). "Punk" culture is not owned by SJW's. They may larp it. But simply put - if we lived in the CP2020 universe, those SJW's that weren't already living in security zones because of their wealthy folks, would probably be dead, or being trafficked, or something horrible.

The "punks" are the ones that *despite* the many social issues rise up against the status-quo. SJW's are largely the white privileged kids that would be harmed the most by such circumstances. Which makes them useful idiots to the true benefactors of such a climate.



So if this is the premise of your game. You're talking about Punkwars. Real punks vs. Establishment Posers.



As someone that actually lived through that era, with family pretty deep in the scene (DJ's etc.) I can unequivocally tell you now: Disco like all pop culture music, has a short life-span and little value in real political terms. It serves only as bread and circuses for the masses. If you're talking in terms of cyberpunk... then your anime wonderland of cyberpunk-themed shit is more prevalent than any other form of it. Why are you complaining?



Have you ever actually *read* the Cyberpunk 2020 books? Have you read *any* of the source-material: Sterling, Gibson, Rucker, Williams, Effinger etc? I'm not sure you actually understand what you're talking about vs. what you're advocating for. The trappings and aesthetics of the punk subculture isn't simply that of the 70's. It's literally anything and everything else plus that, on roids, taken to extremes. *Because* the world has fractured under the weight of globalism and corporate totalitarian corruption. Your simplistic view of it - and I can't tell if you're speaking about the game or the genre, is intensely simplistic. It's like "I don't want DC comic books in this box." And the box is the remnants of a comicbook store that has been on fire for days after a tiny nuke was dropped locally to kill the survivors of a carbon-nano-plague that was introduced to be tested on the populace of a city's sub-division.

It simply is baffling to me that you're focused on one of the most insignificant aspects of the genre - a surface appearance rather than the actual *meat* of what it's about. It's like saying D&D is dogshit because halfling's have curly brown hair on their feet. And you don't like curls or brown hair because it offends you. Heh.



I can't see the picture you're trying to paint with the colossal brush you're painting with here. It's ginormous in scope. And it's granting far more gravity to the punk-movement than it ever deserved or had.



It's a pop fad to the reaction of the times. Nothing more. Nothing less. The *circumstances* that created it are as important as the topic itself. You don't have one without the other. The rebels of the 50's were not the same as the 60's or the 70's... each form was their own brand in conjunction with the circumstances of their time.



Gee. This sounds like Cyberpunk 2020 at street level.

Just so we are clear, I am referring to the Cyberpunk genere not the specific game.

Sadly, I have not read Cyberpunk 2020 although I would love to read and play the game one day.

Punk tends to be the grunge and grit and street level life. There also tends to be a bit of bleakness. The bright future is dingy and druab (despite all the neon.) It doesnt have to have a crime element. But it lends perfectly to such. There also tends to be a counter culture. Though not allways. But a recurring theme tends to be tech either out of control or being abused and those who fight back. And as a poster above noted. There tends to be a recurring DIY element.
Taking that out of cyberpunk and you have either the upper society and never deal with the lower masses. Or a burgeoning utopia. Or space opera.

Star Trek as it was originally presented is cyberpunk without the punk.
Deep Space 9 is cyberpunk with all the punk they could cram in.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1092488Just so we are clear, I am referring to the Cyberpunk genere not the specific game.

Sadly, I have not read Cyberpunk 2020 although I would love to read and play the game one day.

Ultimately it doesn't matter since the CP2020 game is pretty consistent with the genre material from fiction. The elements that you're wanting to remove, the reasons for them (however misguided their reasoning) renders the genre totally invalid.

What you're *really* saying is you want to invent a new genre.

So do it.

Quote from: Omega;1092489Punk tends to be the grunge and grit and street level life. There also tends to be a bit of bleakness. The bright future is dingy and druab (despite all the neon.) It doesnt have to have a crime element. But it lends perfectly to such. There also tends to be a counter culture. Though not allways. But a recurring theme tends to be tech either out of control or being abused and those who fight back. And as a poster above noted. There tends to be a recurring DIY element.
Taking that out of cyberpunk and you have either the upper society and never deal with the lower masses. Or a burgeoning utopia. Or space opera.

Star Trek as it was originally presented is cyberpunk without the punk.
Deep Space 9 is cyberpunk with all the punk they could cram in.

Not a bad analogy. The primary differences being the technology level.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1092419Punk ideology and subculture can best be summed up as "Fuck you, Mommy and Daddy!"

Part of the reason this sensibility connected to the "cyber-" sensibility so well is that it essentially used two forms of generation gap as ways to play off one another and reinforce each other.  From the 1960s onward each generation was not only culturally resistant to its predecessor(s) but technologically more savvy as well, and from the 1980s onward each generation was resisting not only its immediate predecessors but all the others who had, for the first time in history, lived long enough to see multiple radical cultural shifts coexisting in the same living memory.

I would say therefore that rather than take the "punk" entirely out of cyberpunk, some of the other commenters here are right in that what you need is to mix up the generational tensions in some way. It's no longer as simple as sticking it to The Man; the protagonists of the New Cyberpunk (pardon the pompous title) should be as much about figuring out who The Man is, and what they plan to do if they suddenly realize they've become The Man.

If a new technology enables a radical decentralization of power, how should those capable of winning that power use it?

Can the old "rebel without a cause" spirit truly be sustained in the Info-Ocean, where there are so many potential causes you might become paralyzed for choice?

How do you say "Eff you, Mom and Dad" when thanks to cloning, experimental clade cities, loss of records in information disasters, and so on, you have no idea who Mom and Dad are?

Suppose a society of genuine abundance arose, such that nobody was really poor anymore; when the only markers of status are the intangible ones, ego wars might become all the more vicious. Imagine all of society as petty as high school again, because of the same lack of serious material stakes.

The spirit of Punk, I think, is an essentially Gnostic sensibility: it starts from the assumption that the world sucks in some way built into its very structure, and therefore the only hope of salvation can come from those who know how to escape or overthrow it (as opposed to the spirit of High Fantasy, which is about starting from the assumption that the world as it is is worth saving even at your own risk, and its dangers are essentially external or abnormal). This is tailor-made for RPGs because it combines the constant battle of a game with the emotional catharsis of a high drama -- your players have a higher goal in mind which can only be accomplished by struggle and victory, in a world in which they're both the underdogs and simultaneously the world's most important agents of change. It's the nature of Punk that it always seems to involve what is perceived as (if not always required to be) an essential moral clash between the generations.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1092419This guy gets it.

Punk ideology and subculture can best be summed up as "Fuck you, Mommy and Daddy!"

Pretty sure that's metal, not punk.

Just reading the first page and I'm shaking my head at how wrong all of you are about punk music/art/culture. It's like watching a bunch of nerds who have no connection to something they are criticizing but all patting themselves on the back for how they criticize the thing they not only don't understand but have no desire to understand. Fascinating.

Quote from: everloss;1092515Just reading the first page and I'm shaking my head at how wrong all of you are about punk music/art/culture.

I'll freely admit my own knowledge begins and ends with Johnny Rotten and the Sex Pistols and the Shadowrun RPG, but I'm always open to learning more. How would you define "punk"? And how would you revitalize the cyberpunk genre, if possible?

Quote from: everloss;1092515Pretty sure that's metal, not punk.

Just reading the first page and I'm shaking my head at how wrong all of you are about punk music/art/culture. It's like watching a bunch of nerds who have no connection to something they are criticizing but all patting themselves on the back for how they criticize the thing they not only don't understand but have no desire to understand. Fascinating.

Nah, punk is the "conformity through nonconformity"

Metal rules, punk sucks.

Also, metal actually requires musical talent, not simply spouting the same edgy left-wing political views like a barking lunatic.

Quote from: AglondirTaking the punk out of Cyberpunk

Isn't this what the Android setting (and it's RPG counterpart, Shadow of the Beanstalker) do?

Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;1092391The punk aspect of "cyberpunk" I believe is the whole "stick it to the man" vibe that it has, where corporations are all greedy jerks keeping the people down and getting rich off of their suffering etc.

Basically any setting with a bunch of cybernetic enhancements could fit, especially when they're a new-ish technology and still not solid in how it fits in morally to the world. Probably keep it in the near-ish future.

I'm actually not sure how "punk" the Deus Ex setting really is. Somewhat - but not all corporations are exploitative etc. At the very least the Deus Ex games are rather lite on the "punk" half of the cyberpunk genre.

While the first movie was borderline, I don't think that the Ghost in the Shell show really qualifies for the "punk" aspect at all since the main characters are actually working for a government agency, albeit one which often uncovers various corruption in corporations and other government agencies.

There are other sci-fi I can think of with cyborgs which have zero punk, but they're further future with space travel etc., and that probably pushes it into an entirely different genre.

I'm thinking along the same lines. I agree that punk is "sticking it to the Man" in the context of RPGs. In cyberpunk, the Man is the corps. In steampunk, the Man was the upper classes and the industrial machine, but the genre quickly turned into steam fantasy.  In the early days of Vampire the Masquerade, "gothic punk" made sense if the PCs were anarchs fighting the elders, but that premise quickly vanished.  

Cyberpunk minus the punk could go in two directions. The first is something like Deus Ex or Blade Runner, where themes are noir, conspiracy, and the question of identity. Granted we don't see any cyberware in Blade Runner, but Chew is making eyes. It's not a far stretch to think that if Tyrell can make replicants, he can make bio-ware limbs. There's ample room for roleplaying in this space, and I can see the FATE crowd falling over it with their aspects and narrative whatevers.

Quote from: TenbonesOr everything is right as rain. And technology flourishes. Everyone is generally happy. You have proto-Star Trek. The issue here becomes - you have low-level sci-fi and need a conflict. Which could be interesting.

This is the second direction. Near Future Sci Fi. And there's a lot of possible design space here as well, as long as you don't go whole-hog Transhumanism (e.g Eclipse Phase.) Elements include limited space travel (probably only as far as Jupiter) with the focus on orbtial, Moon, and Mars colonies. Ubiquitous computing presence. Virtual intelligence, and maybe true AI, but it is rare and expensive. If there is any nano, it's wet nano (nano inside your body that heals you) not dry nano (that builds/destroys objects.)  There are two games I can think of that do this: Gurps Transhuman Space and Shadow of the Beanstalk.

Quote from: Itachi;1092520Isn't this what the Android setting (and it's RPG counterpart, Shadow of the Beanstalker) do?

Ninja'd! You read my mind while I was typing.

Quote from: jeff37923;1092435Doc, the only reason why you have this deranged opinion is because the closest you ever came to the punk subculture was online by way of a wikipedia article.


If you take the punk out of cyberpunk, you get transhumanism. Why? because while cyberpunk as a genre can be summed up as "high tech low life", transhumanism as a a genre can be summed up as "human evolution via high tech".  When you apply these discussions to Real Life, you get identity theft rings for cyberpunk and you get morons on tBP telling each other how awesome it would be to download your male consciousness into a female body for transhumanism.

Actually, if you take the Punk out of cyberpunk you get games like Corporation.

To me Punk is always going to be Vivian from the Young Ones

Quote from: everloss;1092515Pretty sure that's metal, not punk.

Just reading the first page and I'm shaking my head at how wrong all of you are about punk music/art/culture. It's like watching a bunch of nerds who have no connection to something they are criticizing but all patting themselves on the back for how they criticize the thing they not only don't understand but have no desire to understand. Fascinating.

Welcome to the internet.

The punk in cyberpunk is reference to the the 70s and 80s genre music style, its nihilism, there is a pointlessness to any action. Its a rejection of whats in and embracing the ugliness. Most importantly its about failure.  The characters are not sappose to be heroes.  They are suppose to be selfish, and self destructive
 A dark reflection of the american dream.  You cant save the world in cyberpunk but you can try to save your self.  If society goes left you go right. If some one builds  a factory plant a tree.  If some one plants a tree burn it down a forest. Rebel for the point of rebelling.  If society rejects god find religion.  Thats the punk aspect.  So to take the punk out, you work together you improve, build a better world.  Transhumanism isnt what Doc Sammy seems to think, but to enhance and develop your self through self guided evolution to something beyond human. In transhumanism god made us in his image, we make our sleves beyond his image.

Still, my point stands that Metal rules and Punk sucks.

Seriously, Punk is one of the most pretentious and purist subcultures out there, and their music is awful.

Rebellion against tyranny need not come in the form of the worst subculture and musical genre to come out of the 1970's and 1980's, and neither does self-improvement (which Punk and SJW leftism both seem to be against in all honesty)

Quote from: everloss;1092515Pretty sure that's metal, not punk.

Just reading the first page and I'm shaking my head at how wrong all of you are about punk music/art/culture. It's like watching a bunch of nerds who have no connection to something they are criticizing but all patting themselves on the back for how they criticize the thing they not only don't understand but have no desire to understand. Fascinating.

No, it's punk. Sometimes they almost literally talk about giving mom and dad the finger in the lyrics (e.g. if we consider the Runaways punk, and I think most do), or things like "I want to trash everything because I'm pissed!", which sounds like a child's temper tantrum. I'll give you one thing: punk influenced many bands that I like, but I hardly ever like punk itself.
Metal is usually darker story telling, often nightmare-ish or horror themed, see e.g. Iron Maiden's Hallowed Be thy Name, or Metallica's Enter Sandman.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1092566Still, my point stands that Metal rules and Punk sucks.

Seriously, Punk is one of the most pretentious and purist subcultures out there, and their music is awful.

Rebellion against tyranny need not come in the form of the worst subculture and musical genre to come out of the 1970's and 1980's, and neither does self-improvement (which Punk and SJW leftism both seem to be against in all honesty)

What in the fuck does this have to do with gaming in context? Cyberpunk doesn't actually have punk music playing in the background. The aesthetic is rebellion against the constraints of the setting on the people within the culture. Living at the fringes of the establishment. The reaction of a sub-set of the culture that live outside of those constraints (to the extent that they are able) and making their own way, is the punk aesthetic. What the characters do actively to fight against those constraints by disrupting the establishment is the "cyberpunk" genre of fiction. It has nothing to do with "punk rock" specifically. Only the modern conception of teenage kids in the 70's that rebelled against the comparatively constrained establishment of UK/American values via "music".

Why are you conflating your knee-jerk reaction of a sub-culture that doesn't even *exist* as a movement you're pretending it was to be a thing. I'm not even sure about your views on SJW's at this point? Self-improvement? What do SJW's have to do with self-improvement? They're collectivists.

And while I agree Metal is way better than Punk - it has as much to do with "cyberpunk" as Punk does - which is not much at all. Though... ironically Johnny Silverhand in the CP2020 world was a metal muscian... not punk.

It seems like you're not really venturing forth what you think Cyberpunk is without "Punk" more than you're just ranting about ancillary shit you don't like and tossing in some non-sequitur sprinklings of your anti-SJW rage for fun?

I'm actually interested (and I think others here are too) in talking about what kind of sci-fi game we'd have without the conceits of what creates the "punk" aspects of Cyberpunk? I mean, isn't that what the thread is allegedly about?

Quote from: Trond;1092569No, it's punk. Sometimes they almost literally talk about giving mom and dad the finger in the lyrics (e.g. if we consider the Runaways punk, and I think most do), or things like "I want to trash everything because I'm pissed!", which sounds like a child's temper tantrum. I'll give you one thing: punk influenced many bands that I like, but I hardly ever like punk itself.
Metal is usually darker story telling, often nightmare-ish or horror themed, see e.g. Iron Maiden's Hallowed Be thy Name, or Metallica's Enter Sandman.

To say any of this requires highly selective looks of the genres in question. You can just as easily find tantrums in metal music, whether it be Nu-metal Limp Bizkit yelling about being angry on "One of those days" yelling "Give me something to break!" or Tungsten's weird wounded/misogynistic "I don't need your cunt!" to a number of cringe-y pretend-Satanic bands that have been involved in some pretty embarrassing stuff. On the other hand, there have been a fair number of anti-war metal tracks, or Anthrax has a sizable amount of anti-racist/anti-hate style stuff. Then, this all blends. I mean, thrash metal as a genre is widely understood to be born of a cross-breeding of metal and hardcore punk. You have the speed of your hardcore punk bands like Minor Threat & Bad Brains, your early pre-Blind era Corrosion of Conformity, pre-major label Prong, Discharge (the D-Beat!). Then you get DRI & S.O.D. (which of course has Scott Ian of Anthrax in it), and it's just progressively crossed with the heaviness and precision of metal, and that's the story of the crossover. Metallica covers punk bands on Garage Days... obviously! The Tribute to the Bad Brains album is full of metal bands covering the Bad Brains (Sepultura, Entombed, Downset).

I dunno, I'm having to agree with everyloss' "It's like watching a bunch of nerds who have no connection to something they are criticizing but all patting themselves on the back for how they criticize the thing they not only don't understand but have no desire to understand" comment.

Quote from: tenbones;1092573What in the fuck does this have to do with gaming in context? Cyberpunk doesn't actually have punk music playing in the background. The aesthetic is rebellion against the constraints of the setting on the people within the culture. Living at the fringes of the establishment. The reaction of a sub-set of the culture that live outside of those constraints (to the extent that they are able) and making their own way, is the punk aesthetic. What the characters do actively to fight against those constraints by disrupting the establishment is the "cyberpunk" genre of fiction. It has nothing to do with "punk rock" specifically. Only the modern conception of teenage kids in the 70's that rebelled against the comparatively constrained establishment of UK/American values via "music".

Why are you conflating your knee-jerk reaction of a sub-culture that doesn't even *exist* as a movement you're pretending it was to be a thing. I'm not even sure about your views on SJW's at this point? Self-improvement? What do SJW's have to do with self-improvement? They're collectivists.

And while I agree Metal is way better than Punk - it has as much to do with "cyberpunk" as Punk does - which is not much at all. Though... ironically Johnny Silverhand in the CP2020 world was a metal muscian... not punk.

It seems like you're not really venturing forth what you think Cyberpunk is without "Punk" more than you're just ranting about ancillary shit you don't like and tossing in some non-sequitur sprinklings of your anti-SJW rage for fun?

I'm actually interested (and I think others here are too) in talking about what kind of sci-fi game we'd have without the conceits of what creates the "punk" aspects of Cyberpunk? I mean, isn't that what the thread is allegedly about?

Sammy has this weird thing about punk which seems to have nothing to do with the actual music form from the late 70's and early 80's.

Quote from: tenbones;1092573I'm actually interested (and I think others here are too) in talking about what kind of sci-fi game we'd have without the conceits of what creates the "punk" aspects of Cyberpunk? I mean, isn't that what the thread is allegedly about?

That will be tricky if we can't agree on what punk is.

If by "punk" we mean that the PCs tend to be on the margins of respectable society, I think getting rid of that we end up with something like standard scifi, just set in near future earth instead of far future outer space.

I don't know if this matches other people's recollections, but I seem to remember that shelf space in the scifi section of the local B. Dalton back in the early 80s was pretty dominated by military scifi in the vain of Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle. I remember reading an interview with William Gibson where he described feeling sort of alienated by that vain of "square jawed heroes" scifi, and that reacting against that was a big influence on his early writing.

If by "punk" we mean purple hair and mohawks, that's a bit different.

Quote from: tenbones;1092573What in the fuck does this have to do with gaming in context? Cyberpunk doesn't actually have punk music playing in the background. The aesthetic is rebellion against the constraints of the setting on the people within the culture. Living at the fringes of the establishment. The reaction of a sub-set of the culture that live outside of those constraints (to the extent that they are able) and making their own way, is the punk aesthetic. What the characters do actively to fight against those constraints by disrupting the establishment is the "cyberpunk" genre of fiction. It has nothing to do with "punk rock" specifically. Only the modern conception of teenage kids in the 70's that rebelled against the comparatively constrained establishment of UK/American values via "music".

Why are you conflating your knee-jerk reaction of a sub-culture that doesn't even *exist* as a movement you're pretending it was to be a thing. I'm not even sure about your views on SJW's at this point? Self-improvement? What do SJW's have to do with self-improvement? They're collectivists.

And while I agree Metal is way better than Punk - it has as much to do with "cyberpunk" as Punk does - which is not much at all. Though... ironically Johnny Silverhand in the CP2020 world was a metal muscian... not punk.

It seems like you're not really venturing forth what you think Cyberpunk is without "Punk" more than you're just ranting about ancillary shit you don't like and tossing in some non-sequitur sprinklings of your anti-SJW rage for fun?

I'm actually interested (and I think others here are too) in talking about what kind of sci-fi game we'd have without the conceits of what creates the "punk" aspects of Cyberpunk? I mean, isn't that what the thread is allegedly about?

Maybe I should be clearer...

I actually like the "punk" aspects of Cyberpunk that you are describing.

But as seen with David "Olivia" Hill and several other transhumanist commie scumbags, the SJW's think they "own" Cyberpunk because of their ties to Punk Rock and the Punk subculture, even if Cyberpunk as a genre is not directly connected to the Punk scene at all, unlike Antifa.

SJW's and wannabe transhumanists just think there is a connection, and they are fools for thinking so.

Basically, we need a new take on Cyberpunk that is true to the roots of the genre but better reflective of the era we live in, where the old resistance has sold out and become the new "Man" to be fought against.

Quote from: Dimitrios;1092576That will be tricky if we can't agree on what punk is.

If by "punk" we mean that the PCs tend to be on the margins of respectable society, I think getting rid of that we end up with something like standard scifi, just set in near future earth instead of far future outer space.

I don't know if this matches other people's recollections, but I seem to remember that shelf space in the scifi section of the local B. Dalton back in the early 80s was pretty dominated by military scifi in the vain of Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle. I remember reading an interview with William Gibson where he described feeling sort of alienated by that vain of "square jawed heroes" scifi, and that reacting against that was a big influence on his early writing.

If by "punk" we mean purple hair and mohawks, that's a bit different.

As it pertains to the genre for role playing, I don't play D&D to accurately simulate medievial life, or Star Wars to depict real-world space exploration. The punk in Cyberpunk (and 2020 specifically) is purple hair and mohawks.
Though I do think it's interesting to define how Cyberpunk as an RPG is different from vanilla sci-fi, because 2020 has a tendency to become cyborg super heroes and not gritty edge runners if the GM wasn't careful.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1092584As it pertains to the genre for role playing, I don't play D&D to accurately simulate medievial life, or Star Wars to depict real-world space exploration. The punk in Cyberpunk (and 2020 specifically) is purple hair and mohawks.
Though I do think it's interesting to define how Cyberpunk as an RPG is different from vanilla sci-fi, because 2020 has a tendency to become cyborg super heroes and not gritty edge runners if the GM wasn't careful.

The problem is that in this day and age, "purple hair and mohawks" are the new jackboots.


Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

As such, the rebellious edge inherent in cyberpunk needs to adapt to the modern era unless it's a deliberate tribute to 80's cyberpunk. That's what I mean when I say "taking the punk out of cyberpunk"

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1092585The problem is that in this day and age, "purple hair and mohawks" are the new jackboots.

I don't care. I'm not going to let a bunch of SJW nitwits define what I can and can't like, through guilt by association.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1092582Maybe I should be clearer...

I actually like the "punk" aspects of Cyberpunk that you are describing.

But as seen with David "Olivia" Hill and several other transhumanist commie scumbags, the SJW's think they "own" Cyberpunk because of their ties to Punk Rock and the Punk subculture, even if Cyberpunk as a genre is not directly connected to the Punk scene at all, unlike Antifa.

SJW's and wannabe transhumanists just think there is a connection, and they are fools for thinking so.

Basically, we need a new take on Cyberpunk that is true to the roots of the genre but better reflective of the era we live in, where the old resistance has sold out and become the new "Man" to be fought against.

That's already in the works: Cyberpunk Red. And better, you can pick up CP2020 and run it and fill it with all this stuff you're wanting and then some. If you're implying the SJW's are the Jackboots of the future... because of how you feel now, I highly suggest you go dig into the CP2020 lore and you'll see the same shit there but the real villains of the world are the exact people that are the exact villains now - corporations with too-much power and corrupt politicians.

You can play the game at the street level fighting SJW-lunatics, sure. But just like in real life, SJW's get their resources from various streams that inevitably lead to the real culprits. SJW's are useful idiots. I mean, David Hill and Sarkeesian aren't *literally* jackbooting around my front-yard. They can claim whatever they want, this is just gaming, which I guess is a good venue for you to create villains out of them - me? I think it's ceding a VAST amount of importance to people that literally are irrelevant to the larger scheme of things in the real world and in one's setting. At least in your potential setting.

Why waste time worrying about their brand of communist leanings when there are real commies out there, true bureaucratic monstrosities that in a cyberpunk dystopia would crush you flat, black-bag you, assassinate your dog, etc. if you got out of line and those people would look like the actual cops/government/corporate security - not like purple-haired fatties, and lispy-soy-chugging Weezer-fans.

But if that's the game you wanna play - the game that already does that is literally a fingertip away. If you have some *specific* ideas about WHY this settings you're proposing works in lieu of what has been covered, then that's what you seem to be short on details about.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1092587I don't care. I'm not going to let a bunch of SJW nitwits define what I can and can't like, through guilt by association.

Exactly. Why would anyone do that? But then... that's seems to be a pattern with Sammy.

Quote from: tenbones;1092591That's already in the works: Cyberpunk Red. And better, you can pick up CP2020 and run it and fill it with all this stuff you're wanting and then some. If you're implying the SJW's are the Jackboots of the future... because of how you feel now, I highly suggest you go dig into the CP2020 lore and you'll see the same shit there but the real villains of the world are the exact people that are the exact villains now - corporations with too-much power and corrupt politicians.

You can play the game at the street level fighting SJW-lunatics, sure. But just like in real life, SJW's get their resources from various streams that inevitably lead to the real culprits. SJW's are useful idiots. I mean, David Hill and Sarkeesian aren't *literally* jackbooting around my front-yard. They can claim whatever they want, this is just gaming, which I guess is a good venue for you to create villains out of them - me? I think it's ceding a VAST amount of importance to people that literally are irrelevant to the larger scheme of things in the real world and in one's setting. At least in your potential setting.

Why waste time worrying about their brand of communist leanings when there are real commies out there, true bureaucratic monstrosities that in a cyberpunk dystopia would crush you flat, black-bag you, assassinate your dog, etc. if you got out of line and those people would look like the actual cops/government/corporate security - not like purple-haired fatties, and lispy-soy-chugging Weezer-fans.

But if that's the game you wanna play - the game that already does that is literally a fingertip away. If you have some *specific* ideas about WHY this settings you're proposing works in lieu of what has been covered, then that's what you seem to be short on details about.

This, the SJWs are dangerous now only because they are being used to usher in a dystopia much like cyberpunk but without the coll shit. Lets call it Soypunk. But if the corporations get their way they useful idiots will suffer the same fate they have always suffered, be the first in line to be shot in the back by their masters.

When a broken tool is useful broken you use it, once that broken tool becomes (by the fact of it being broken) a nuisance (when you don't need it anymore) you discard it.

Quote from: NeonAce;1092574To say any of this requires highly selective looks of the genres in question. You can just as easily find tantrums in metal music,whether it be Nu-metal Limp Bizkit yelling about being angry on "One of those days" yelling "Give me something to break!" or Tungsten's weird wounded/misogynistic "I don't need your cunt!" to a number of cringe-y pretend-Satanic bands that have been involved in some pretty embarrassing stuff.

That is far more cherry-picking than I did though, since my examples are pretty much the biggest and most well-known there are, while Limp Bizkit are pretty far out on the fringe of what you'd call metal (and their image has more to do with the rap scene). I have barely even heard of Tungsten, but songs about bad relationships can be found almost anywhere so I'm not sure what point it serves to illustrate. And yes, I know that punk was influential. OK let me give you my own example of cherry-picking, but taken from the origin of the genres: If you go to the origin of metal you find songs like "Black Sabbath" or "The Wizard", while if you go to the core origin of punk you'll find "I Wanna Sniff Some Glue" or "Anarchy in the UK". I don't think it's strange that many roleplaying gamers here often tend prefer metal.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1092585As such, the rebellious edge inherent in cyberpunk needs to adapt to the modern era unless it's a deliberate tribute to 80's cyberpunk. That's what I mean when I say "taking the punk out of cyberpunk"

I'm having a hard time discerning whether you're talking about "real life" or the game. Because CP Red is going to be that game. CP2020 is *already* that game (needs tech update but nothing more). It doesn't need to emulate the 80's *at all*. As people are discovering - CP2020 already predicted a LOT of what we're seeing today that you're railing about. Those things *have happened* in the CP2020 universe as they apparently are unfolding with alarming potentiality, in real life.

You seem to think these people (the SJW's) are the enemy worthy of your notion of a modern cyberpunk game. What I'm trying to tell you is that all of this stuff you're advocating for is already cooked into the history of Cyberpunk 2020. If you read "Home of the Brave" the America sourcebook, in all likelihood most of the SJW's that weren't already independently wealthy, and I mean *wealthy*) would likely have *DIED*.  

I mean... they detail the corruption of the government, and implosion of the Union to the point where the President and Vice-President got summarily executed after declaring Martial Law and for 12-years the nation starved and went total freak out. 30% of the population died starting of course with the elderly and weakest at survival skills. Various states seceded from the Union leaving them and the rest oft he U.S. vulnerable to all kinds of crazy shit.

QuoteThink for a minute about pre-collapse America. Almost thirty percent of citizens were receiving some sort of federal assistance, when all federal social programs stopped: Medicare, Medicaid, Food Stamps, Welfare, Unemployment, Social Security, Subsidies, and Price Controls, everything. Consider the devastation. That was only a fraction of the damage done to America in the Collapse. Quite simply, everything that we understood about how society works no longer applied. 100,000,000 were dead, and no fewer than 25-50,000,000 were disenfranchised, homeless nomads--or worse.

Yeah... the SJW's in cyberpunk are the least of your worries.

I am looking more into the backstory of Cyberpunk 2020 and now I really want to try this game out so bad.

It's right up my alley and I am also supporting Cyberpunk 2077 because it's gonna rock!

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1092587I don't care. I'm not going to let a bunch of SJW nitwits define what I can and can't like, through guilt by association.

   As I keep saying, I gave up on judging things by their fanbase when I realized how much conservative Catholic J.R.R. Tolkien had been 'appropriated' by the hippies and counterculture of the 60s.

The idea of "punk" and "metal" have no relation is incorrect.

Here's what Slayer says about Slayer on their own website:
In the beginning, when there were no blueprints, no set paths, no boundaries or steps to follow, SLAYER assaulted the world with its hybrid of metal and punk.

Both punk and metal are very wide genres, both with a truly absurd number of subgenres. There are numerous bands out there today who could easily be classified as punk metal hybrids (Hatebreed, Slipknot, Emmure, Lamb of God, etc).  

It's notable the "Big 4" of heavy metal are Slayer, Metallica, Megadeth and Anthrax and both Slayer and Anthrax are very open and proud of their punk roots.

This may have been mentioned elsewhere. But it looks like some journalists got bent due to the humanity cost of gender reassignment from When Gravity Falls. Ignoring that therapy negates the cost and its a sourcebook from the 90s.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1092601The idea of "punk" and "metal" have no relation is incorrect.

Here's what Slayer says about Slayer on their own website:
In the beginning, when there were no blueprints, no set paths, no boundaries or steps to follow, SLAYER assaulted the world with its hybrid of metal and punk.

Both punk and metal are very wide genres, both with a truly absurd number of subgenres. There are numerous bands out there today who could easily be classified as punk metal hybrids (Hatebreed, Slipknot, Emmure, Lamb of God, etc).  

It's notable the "Big 4" of heavy metal are Slayer, Metallica, Megadeth and Anthrax and both Slayer and Anthrax are very open and proud of their punk roots.

Well I was merely talking in regards to Cyberpunk. Metal and Punk are most certainly trappings of the genre (I actually think thrash and the Big 4 are definitely represented in aspects of CP2020 specifically, more that "punk".) I don't think that Metal and Punk are *overtly* the dominating movement of cyberpunk fiction, they're the veneer, for obvious reasons.

But I think metal in general, especially power metal and and prog-metal are in-synch with it. Fuck man Queensryche's "Rage for Order" and "Operation:Mindcrime" (two of the best metal albums *ever*) are practically the theme-music for CP2020 conceptually. For decades I used those albums as my stand-ins for the "Samurais" in the background of my games. They were singing about cyberpunk almost decade before CP2020 even landed. So having Keanu play actual Silverhand in the videogame is quite a kick.

And it's always a good time to whip out some Rage For Order. It's timeless. Oddly fitting for this era more than ever.

Rage for Order (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOPR5s0xn2U&list=PLaO5evNthlMi3HKiB66xfzK5Ion2ep2Ib)

Quote from: TNMalt;1092606This may have been mentioned elsewhere. But it looks like some journalists got bent due to the humanity cost of gender reassignment from When Gravity Falls. Ignoring that therapy negates the cost and its a sourcebook from the 90s.

Some journalists need to look at the mortality rates of transgendered people pre-and-post op. They're horrifying. And worse: they do not change.

Add that to the fact that what people think of romantically as "transhumanism" is likely to do this to people without those dysphoric disorders should be sobering enough. When someone is willing to to systematically de-humanize themselves physically, then what becomes the premise for pretending that humanity even matters extraneously to one's self? For what purpose does it serve? Socialization? What for? So you can be a clique of non-humans in a ever-shrinking world of dominant humans (though their populations will be dwindling too)?

Yeah... rude awakenings are in store.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1092601The idea of "punk" and "metal" have no relation is incorrect......

Who said that though?

Quote from: TNMalt;1092606This may have been mentioned elsewhere. But it looks like some journalists got bent due to the humanity cost of gender reassignment from When Gravity Falls. Ignoring that therapy negates the cost and its a sourcebook from the 90s.

I looked through the therapy rules. What's to prevent a character from loading up on cyberware and then just taking a few weeks between runs to take therapy? Unless there's some serious time constraints, it seems like most of the problems with cyberpsychosis can be avoided.

Quote from: ThatChrisGuy;1092575Sammy has this weird thing about punk which seems to have nothing to do with the actual music form from the late 70's and early 80's.

Or the subculture surrounding the music.

Quote from: Trond;1092595That is far more cherry-picking than I did though, since my examples are pretty much the biggest and most well-known there are, while Limp Bizkit are pretty far out on the fringe of what you'd call metal (and their image has more to do with the rap scene). I have barely even heard of Tungsten, but songs about bad relationships can be found almost anywhere so I'm not sure what point it serves to illustrate. And yes, I know that punk was influential. OK let me give you my own example of cherry-picking, but taken from the origin of the genres: If you go to the origin of metal you find songs like "Black Sabbath" or "The Wizard", while if you go to the core origin of punk you'll find "I Wanna Sniff Some Glue" or "Anarchy in the UK". I don't think it's strange that many roleplaying gamers here often tend prefer metal.

I wasn't cherry picking. I also enjoy a fair amount of metal. It was illustrating that both genres are much broader than you or Sammy seem capable of realizing? There are a million ridiculous metal bands, and a million decent ones. Likewise for punk. Sleep have an hour long album that is just one long track about smoking weed (kinda the subject of the whole "Stoner Metal" sub-genre). That's cool, I'm down with it. Drowning Pool's song about counting ("Let the Bodies Hit the Floor")... come on, if that isn't just some young male angry shit that's basically about having testosterone and acting like a tough guy. In the black metal scene in Norway you had a string of 50 church burnings by edgy black metal fans & band members. I dunno, maybe you discount nu-metal, black metal and stoner metal from being considered "real metal" and we can walk into "no-true-Scotsman" land together, but to sit around pretending this is oh-so-mature compared to Fugazi or even something like the Clash or Propaghandi or Idles is just ridiculous fanboy shit, really. What it is is merely a difference of musical taste. An aesthetic musical preference.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1092584As it pertains to the genre for role playing, I don't play D&D to accurately simulate medievial life, or Star Wars to depict real-world space exploration. The punk in Cyberpunk (and 2020 specifically) is purple hair and mohawks.

Ditto, but I've always connected the game Cyberpunk with the literary genre cyberpunk. That is the entire reason why I wanted to purchase and play the game.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1092584Though I do think it's interesting to define how Cyberpunk as an RPG is different from vanilla sci-fi, because 2020 has a tendency to become cyborg super heroes and not gritty edge runners if the GM wasn't careful.

Which is why Mike Pondsmith created Listen Up, You Primitive Screwheads!!!! and Cybergeneration, after hearing feedback from fans of the game.

Goddamn this thread had so much potential.

So... in summary: let's change CP so the SJWs can't have it? My god we are throwing some fucking temper-tantrums or what? It's like someone told all the old folks that ice-cream day was cancelled...

I would be curious to know;

1) How would YOU remove the punk from your game? What would your setting look like? How would you setup the campaign?
2) Would you make any changes to the default CP2020 rules?
3) Would you make any changes to the history?

P.S.

I listen to my anxious liberal friends theorize the destruction of the US under "The Conservatives" (whatever that fucking means these days...) - how there will be concentration camps, mass deportations, a Theocracy that looks something like The Handmaid's Tale... Thus far our freedoms are sill in tact, the country is running along much like it did before and the only thing resembling a concentration camp are the migrant shelters the border patrol are erecting in a desperate attempt to keep up with demand. I don't like how modern Republicans politic, but for Christ's sake... the whinging is exhausting.

Here we are on theRPGsite, leaning to the right, anxiously theorizing how the regressive-left fascists are going to take our games. (please say it in the South Park, they took our jobs...). Again, 8 years of Obama and 3 years of Trump and we still have our freedoms, our liberty and no one has come for our games. Sure, they try, but RPG Deplorables keep trucking on with their own stores and a solid following that adores them. Patreon still has boobs on it. Several new sites stepped up to cater to the boobs crowd for those actually worried Patreon might censor them. Libertines and internet shit-lords are selling their things. Every single person on this site can find and play a game to their liking, made by people of their liking. All night long.

Same shit - different century. Politicians are greedy fuckwits. Most leaders are selfish and evil. We don't make enough money. Bureaucratic systems are a fucking mess. News at 11.

With all the difficulties in life, why in the Seven Hells would you want to turn our hobby, arguably the best escape from reality ever invented, into a political shit-show?

It would be nice to see some posts about actual RPGs. I have tried. But those posts fizzle out with no interest. It seems we're so outraged these days the only thing that turns us on is political shit-fests. It is so fucking boring.

Do you 9 posters who spit-shit political drama in every post really believe that most of us give a flying fuck? We don't. It's so hilarious that you post with this bravado like everyone here is a conservative who is going to rally behind your ranting nonsense. You point fingers at TBP that we believe is a place where non-gamers desperately try to dominate a hobby they hate. How the fuck is this site any different? It's become the conservative mirror to the TBP. Is that our legacy? Maybe we should rename the site theNotTBPsite... ?

Folks. Calm down. I can't have these frank conversations with my liberal friends because they get emotional and start building a pyre. I thought this crowd was different. Can we for the love of GOD drop the politics for a bit and try to talk about actual gaming? Let us put our money where are mouths have repeatedly gone. This is the last bastion of actual gamers who play RPGs and love the hobby. Let us lead by example, shall we?

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1092585The problem is that in this day and age, "purple hair and mohawks" are the new jackboots.


Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

As such, the rebellious edge inherent in cyberpunk needs to adapt to the modern era unless it's a deliberate tribute to 80's cyberpunk. That's what I mean when I say "taking the punk out of cyberpunk"

Why?

Because you cannot separate your passionate hatreds from a game which doesn't even resemble the things you hate?

For fuck's sake boy, go read the Cyberpunk 2020 core rulebook at least before running your mouth about how much the game needs to be changed.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1092587I don't care. I'm not going to let a bunch of SJW nitwits define what I can and can't like, through guilt by association.

And THAT, ladies and gentlemen, is an excellent example of the punk aesthetic.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1092610I looked through the therapy rules. What's to prevent a character from loading up on cyberware and then just taking a few weeks between runs to take therapy?

Nothing. However, in practice during games, Players seemed to always want to be riding the ragged edge of disaster with cyberpsychosis.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1092610Unless there's some serious time constraints, it seems like most of the problems with cyberpsychosis can be avoided.

They can. However, Players seemed to find that idea boring (even though it would be happening between games).

To cut right down to it, if you take the punk pit of cyberpunk, you dont just get transhumanism you get post cyberpunk. Where instead of urban decay, rampant greed and tearing down the status qou.  You are establishing the new qou, you are building something better, its a goal towards.  Cyberpunk can be thought as a technologicsl sociological dark age, post cyberpunk is not so much a golden age but a renaissance towards enlightenment.
And... transhumanism is not transgender or any of the branch of Body Dysmorphia Disorders which are a host of mental disorders that current methodology is to allow them to live as thier desired gender and treat the other issues that they have.  Ussually through talk therapy and helping them be the best them they can be, ie acceptance of who they are, how ever that journey takes them.  Transhumanism is a philosophy or idea that man has gotten so advanced that they not  nature are predominantly the driving mechanism of development, so we should start to take a more firm control. That eventually the idea of what is human expands, as a post scaricity humanity journeys towards the singularity. The key point in all of this is the idea of realized true hope for a better tommorow.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1092610I looked through the therapy rules. What's to prevent a character from loading up on cyberware and then just taking a few weeks between runs to take therapy? Unless there's some serious time constraints, it seems like most of the problems with cyberpsychosis can be avoided.

This is true only if 1) Your GM doesn't actually enforce the conceits of the setting. 2) You're players are powergamers looking for the maximum metal solution to a problem that can only be found in the mirror.

In my games there are accessibility issues. Plus unless you're getting your cyberware from very good cybertechs under the table, you are most certainly being screened and your implants and modifications are going to be flagged at various points because C-SWAT doesn't want to risk the chance of having to deal with a cyber-psycho. I mean your *Empathy* stat itself lowers with every 10 points of Humanity you lose. If you don't enforce that as a GM, your'e essentially relegating your ability to socialize with people as being meaningless.

Cyber-psychosis *is* part of the culture in the sense that it's a terrifying thing. That's why C-SWAT exists, to specifically deal with those people that have gone over the edge. Going to therapy often means the removal of cyberware as well on TOP of the cognitive/braindance therapy.

The reality is this: the amount of modification you do is dependent on how much Humanity you have. Most people aren't borging out because it's INSANELY expensive and prohibitive in terms of Humanity and monetary cost. Not to mention the in-game legalities.

If a player min-maxes and takes a 10 Empathy for the purposes of milking it for cyber-ware, one questions why *anyone* with that level of Empathy would even slap on that much cyberware in the first place. That's kind of the whole point of the devaluation of humanity>Empathy. That kind of therapy would definitely take the PC out of the game. I let players go hog on cyberware all the time. It so severely limits them socially they're only good for one thing: getting it on. And that's fine. But there always comes a time when having to explain why your friend is a murderous killing machine that looks like a steel-gorilla when he's rocking that 1 Empathy, becomes too much of a hassle that your own party ends up having to put you down.

Quote from: videopete;1092619To cut right down to it, if you take the punk pit of cyberpunk, you dont just get transhumanism you get post cyberpunk. Where instead of urban decay, rampant greed and tearing down the status qou.  You are establishing the new qou, you are building something better, its a goal towards.  Cyberpunk can be thought as a technologicsl sociological dark age, post cyberpunk is not so much a golden age but a renaissance towards enlightenment.

Agreed. There is a LOT of potential gamespace in such a setting too!

Quote from: videopete;1092619And... transhumanism is not transgender or any of the branch of Body Dysmorphia Disorders which are a host of mental disorders that current methodology is to allow them to live as thier desired gender and treat the other issues that they have.  Ussually through talk therapy and helping them be the best them they can be, ie acceptance of who they are, how ever that journey takes them.  Transhumanism is a philosophy or idea that man has gotten so advanced that they not  nature are predominantly the driving mechanism of development, so we should start to take a more firm control. That eventually the idea of what is human expands, as a post scaricity humanity journeys towards the singularity. The key point in all of this is the idea of realized true hope for a better tommorow.

Which is the issue. Because SJW's believe their mental disorders are the precursor to transhumanism. Or they pretend they do. And frankly I'm skeptical of the idea of playable transhumanism in the sense that for it to be good gaming, we need some kind of conflict. Transhuman utopianism is really the transition into going hard sci-fi. Which is fine. But alone it needs more setting considerations beyond the scope of getting from here, a pre-cyberpunk society to there, a post-singularity near-utopia.

Better tomorrow is a good thing to fight for in a game. It's a shitshow to play in.

Quote from: trechriron;1092614It's like someone told all the old folks that ice-cream day was cancelled...

They cancelled ice-cream day?!?!?! :mad:

Quote from: trechriron;1092614I listen to my anxious liberal friends theorize the destruction of the US under "The Conservatives" (whatever that fucking means these days...) - how there will be concentration camps, mass deportations, a Theocracy that looks something like The Handmaid's Tale... Thus far our freedoms are sill in tact, the country is running along much like it did before and the only thing resembling a concentration camp are the migrant shelters the border patrol are erecting in a desperate attempt to keep up with demand. I don't like how modern Republicans politic, but for Christ's sake... the whinging is exhausting.

Here we are on theRPGsite, leaning to the right, anxiously theorizing how the regressive-left fascists are going to take our games. (please say it in the South Park, they took our jobs...). Again, 8 years of Obama and 3 years of Trump and we still have our freedoms, our liberty and no one has come for our games. Sure, they try, but RPG Deplorables keep trucking on with their own stores and a solid following that adores them. Patreon still has boobs on it. Several new sites stepped up to cater to the boobs crowd for those actually worried Patreon might censor them. Libertines and internet shit-lords are selling their things. Every single person on this site can find and play a game to their liking, made by people of their liking. All night long.

Same shit - different century. Politicians are greedy fuckwits. Most leaders are selfish and evil. We don't make enough money. Bureaucratic systems are a fucking mess. News at 11.

With all the difficulties in life, why in the Seven Hells would you want to turn our hobby, arguably the best escape from reality ever invented, into a political shit-show?

It would be nice to see some posts about actual RPGs. I have tried. But those posts fizzle out with no interest. It seems we're so outraged these days the only thing that turns us on is political shit-fests. It is so fucking boring.

Do you 9 posters who spit-shit political drama in every post really believe that most of us give a flying fuck? We don't. It's so hilarious that you post with this bravado like everyone here is a conservative who is going to rally behind your ranting nonsense. You point fingers at TBP that we believe is a place where non-gamers desperately try to dominate a hobby they hate. How the fuck is this site any different? It's become the conservative mirror to the TBP. Is that our legacy? Maybe we should rename the site theNotTBPsite... ?

Folks. Calm down. I can't have these frank conversations with my liberal friends because they get emotional and start building a pyre. I thought this crowd was different. Can we for the love of GOD drop the politics for a bit and try to talk about actual gaming? Let us put our money where are mouths have repeatedly gone. This is the last bastion of actual gamers who play RPGs and love the hobby. Let us lead by example, shall we?

I knew when I saw that this was a Sammy thread that he would have some nutty OTT idea, but maybe it would spawn a few interesting conversations and it has! We've discussed the nature and origin of punk, and how it applies to the Cyberpunk genere, and the RPG in particular. There's going to be some hyperbole because everyone on the internet is a cyberpsycho raging killdozer when they're comfortably typing at their cheeto-dusted keyboard about elfgames.

Take your own advice and relax, dude.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1092601The idea of "punk" and "metal" have no relation is incorrect.

Here's what Slayer says about Slayer on their own website:
In the beginning, when there were no blueprints, no set paths, no boundaries or steps to follow, SLAYER assaulted the world with its hybrid of metal and punk.

Both punk and metal are very wide genres, both with a truly absurd number of subgenres. There are numerous bands out there today who could easily be classified as punk metal hybrids (Hatebreed, Slipknot, Emmure, Lamb of God, etc).  

It's notable the "Big 4" of heavy metal are Slayer, Metallica, Megadeth and Anthrax and both Slayer and Anthrax are very open and proud of their punk roots.

Big 4 of thrash metal you mean. Just wanna make that clear. Personally I prefer power metal, but that's neither here nor there. Like you said, metal has a HUGE number of subgenres, and outside of the thrash subgenre not many people care about those bands, I don't go to many concerts but last I heard Thrash wasn't quite as big as it used to be either.

Quote from: tenbones;1092621This is true only if 1) Your GM doesn't actually enforce the conceits of the setting. 2) You're players are powergamers looking for the maximum metal solution to a problem that can only be found in the mirror.

In my games there are accessibility issues. Plus unless you're getting your cyberware from very good cybertechs under the table, you are most certainly being screened and your implants and modifications are going to be flagged at various points because C-SWAT doesn't want to risk the chance of having to deal with a cyber-psycho. I mean your *Empathy* stat itself lowers with every 10 points of Humanity you lose. If you don't enforce that as a GM, your'e essentially relegating your ability to socialize with people as being meaningless.

Cyber-psychosis *is* part of the culture in the sense that it's a terrifying thing. That's why C-SWAT exists, to specifically deal with those people that have gone over the edge. Going to therapy often means the removal of cyberware as well on TOP of the cognitive/braindance therapy.

The reality is this: the amount of modification you do is dependent on how much Humanity you have. Most people aren't borging out because it's INSANELY expensive and prohibitive in terms of Humanity and monetary cost. Not to mention the in-game legalities.

If a player min-maxes and takes a 10 Empathy for the purposes of milking it for cyber-ware, one questions why *anyone* with that level of Empathy would even slap on that much cyberware in the first place. That's kind of the whole point of the devaluation of humanity>Empathy. That kind of therapy would definitely take the PC out of the game. I let players go hog on cyberware all the time. It so severely limits them socially they're only good for one thing: getting it on. And that's fine. But there always comes a time when having to explain why your friend is a murderous killing machine that looks like a steel-gorilla when he's rocking that 1 Empathy, becomes too much of a hassle that your own party ends up having to put you down.

At first I just used Roadstriker II and then Maximum Metal to make powered armor for C-SWAT so that they had an edge in combating cyberpsychos. Of course this lead to an arms race between C-SWAT, the Corps, and the Feds (with the Corps selling some restricted cyberware to the street gangs so that they could commit crimes with plausible deniability by the Corps and cause C-SWAT to buy more powered armor and weapons in order to combat the street gangs....).

Well if your going CP2020, embrace the Oldtaku 80s ultraviolent cheese and just relax and enjoy the show, that said I always found that cybergeneration the one where you played as kids to ve more true to the spirit of cyberpunk than the urban mercenary of classic cyberpunk.  That said it was really easy to go from 0 to tidaloo child murder and make the whole table uncomfortable, especially in todays climate. When I started when I was like 12, cybergeneration was the coolest ever and kids dieing was okay for us tykes.

Quote from: videopete;1092632Well if your going CP2020, embrace the Oldtaku 80s ultraviolent cheese and just relax and enjoy the show, that said I always found that cybergeneration the one where you played as kids to ve more true to the spirit of cyberpunk than the urban mercenary of classic cyberpunk.  That said it was really easy to go from 0 to tidaloo child murder and make the whole table uncomfortable, especially in todays climate. When I started when I was like 12, cybergeneration was the coolest ever and kids dieing was okay for us tykes.

Amen to that!

The Oltakus are the best otakus.

Quote from: Aglondir;1092388What does the "punk" in CP mean?
What would CP look without it?
Has it been done before?
If so, what movies,  books,  or other media capture is essence?

1.) The "punk" in Cyberpunk shows up in various ways, I think.

a.) The aesthetics of Punk Rock culture is sometimes used to create an air of danger, as far as how some nihilistic gangs and lowlifes are portrayed. In this way, "Punk" is just kind of a magnified version of the danger "Rock 'n' Roll" represented to the straight folks and concerned parents of earlier times. It's the James Dean "Rebel Without a Cause" taken all of the way. It's not just a black leather jacket, it's got spikes and chains. It's beyond the greaser hair into spiked blue hair. How was this irresponsible teen going to get a job? Looking like that!?!? Add cyber and you can take the aesthetic even further.

b.) Related to the above, cyberpunk is kind of about the breakdown of... I dunno, post-war mainstream culture? Punk and cyberpunk both started obviously pre-internet, in "a few networks on TV" times. Everything from Beats to Hippies to Punks, etc. were in some ways a reaction to the mainstream culture of the time. In cyberpunk fiction, the "mainstream" culture is portrayed as comic empty lie. Just laughably shallow and spewing promises that show it to be full of shit. That combined with a lot of cyberpunk portraying a more brutal divide between upper and lower classes, the "middle class" being portrayed as dupes of the powerful who'd throw anyone to the wolves at the drop of a hat, all adds up to this dark nihilistic take where idealism or honest optimism that some new modernist ideology is going to save the day is rejected as naive. I kind of think that living in 2019... this stuff is not very sci-fi any more. Punk was the most obvious embodiment of that kind of feeling when the Cyberpunk genre kicked off, so... that.

c.) Punk Rock has this particular kind of democratizing DIY ethos that was a reaction against "corporate rock". You could pick up a cheap guitar, learn a couple chords, and go out and kick ass, play for your friends and own the music for yourself, press and distribute music without needing the major labels, etc. You could cut up and repurpose other media and wrangle access to a mimeograph or copy machine and publish your own 'zine. You could take any old trash from the gutter and make your own thing from it. Obviously this has always been true to some extent (see comedy Hard Times articles like "Teen tells Grandfather about DIY ethos in house Grandfather Built With His Own Hands"), and now in 2019 the barriers are even lower to doing this kind of thing in the media realm. Still, when William Gibson writes "The street finds its own uses for things", he's referring to this. People who don't have money or power, creating and making things happen through scrappy, improvised means using the materials available.

d.) Maybe even the body modification aspect of Cyberpunk pulls a bit from punk. Nowadays, it's not the same, but in the early '80s... if you have a chain running from your nose or even tattoos that are ultra-common today, you were kind of disqualifying yourself from what most people at the time considered "a normal life". Cyberpunk takes that idea even further, people willing to do almost anything to their body for whatever their odd aesthetic is, or just having people with obvious cyber-limbs, etc. adds to the "scary to norms" effect. This all gets into some transhuman adjacent stuff about what it means to be human, what does anything mean at all, etc.

2.) Cyberpunk without "punk"... Well. I think quite a few of the "punk" elements in Cyberpunk can be removed and still be cyberpunk. I kinda think the most essential "punk" part is the class division and the scrappy resourcefulness of the underclass and at least a touch of nihilism or feeling of unmoor-edness. Cyberpunk without "punk" would probably be a more optimistic kind of sci-fi. It would maybe find some sort of happy way to imagine a splintered society coming together. It might be something a bit more spiritual. Without the "punk" cyberpunk is really just "near future sci-fi" I think, so really the field is wider than my speculations suggest.

3.) Has it been done before? I think yes. The question is a bit like asking "Has anyone taken the magic out of fantasy, and what does it look like?" and the answer is something like "Yeah, it looks like speculative fiction without magic." If we take the "cyber" part to mean it has to contain people augmented by cybernetics, then it's just near future sci-fi that focuses on that, but without delving into the "punk" elements. I dunno if there is a singular essensce to that, though.

In my CP games, going to therapy was dangerous.

Who's listening in? Who does the therapist really work for? What is the therapist dropping into your subconscious?

We have HIPAA laws protecting physician-patient privilege. No such thing exists in my cyberpunk.

Maybe your borderline cyberpsycho would like some free therapy as part of payment after your next run? Of course, our MegaCorp would love to help and we have our own therapists standing by...to interrogate you via hypnosis and implant loyalty and obedience thought patterns!
 

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1092593This, the SJWs are dangerous now only because they are being used to usher in a dystopia much like cyberpunk but without the coll shit. Lets call it Soypunk.

LOL! Soypunk!

An important aspect of cyberpunk is how ALL rebellion suffers instant commoditization by the corporations. Want a "I hate MegaCorp B" t-shirt! Awesome because MegaCorp E has an entire line of rebellious clothing, music and celebs for you to buy! Love shadowrunners and root for them? Cool, because MegaCorp N has the best new VR games for you to make believe you too are sticking it to the Man!

I would argue "woke" has already been commoditized / politicized / controlled by our 2019 corporate overlords.

Quote from: trechriron;10926141) How would YOU remove the punk from your game? What would your setting look like? How would you setup the campaign?

You wind up in Paranoia. AKA, a highly oppressive post-1984, more Brave New World "enforced-utopia dystopia" where everyone is wearing grey jumpsuits eating behavior drugs or they get shot.

In such a setting, as in Paranoia, there IS rebellion, but its schizophrenic and deeply hidden where the rebels can't be seen, yet are still hunted for even the slightest non-conformity.

Quote from: trechriron;1092614I listen to my anxious liberal friends theorize the destruction of the US under "The Conservatives" (whatever that fucking means these days...) - how there will be concentration camps, mass deportations, a Theocracy that looks something like The Handmaid's Tale...

Tell your friends its all true and they gotta emigrate before its too late!!

Quote from: trechriron;1092614With all the difficulties in life, why in the Seven Hells would you want to turn our hobby, arguably the best escape from reality ever invented, into a political shit-show?

Go ask Chaosium, WotC, Paizo and the other "woke" publishers.

Quote from: trechriron;1092614It would be nice to see some posts about actual RPGs. I have tried. But those posts fizzle out with no interest. It seems we're so outraged these days the only thing that turns us on is political shit-fests. It is so fucking boring.

Then start your own zero-politics threads. I've started a half dozen this month. Who cares if they fizzle after a few pages? That's the nature of forums.

Quote from: trechriron;1092614How the fuck is this site any different?

On RPG.net, your post would have gotten you perma-banned. That's how the fuck this site is different.

I still love you.

Quote from: trechriron;1092614Here we are on theRPGsite, leaning to the right, anxiously theorizing how the regressive-left fascists are going to take our games. (please say it in the South Park, they took our jobs...). Again, 8 years of Obama and 3 years of Trump and we still have our freedoms, our liberty and no one has come for our games. Sure, they try, but RPG Deplorables keep trucking on with their own stores and a solid following that adores them. Patreon still has boobs on it. Several new sites stepped up to cater to the boobs crowd for those actually worried Patreon might censor them. Libertines and internet shit-lords are selling their things. Every single person on this site can find and play a game to their liking, made by people of their liking. All night long.

Wait, what is Patreon doing to boobs now?  Asking for a friend.

BTW, have any of you played in the BIOPUNK genre? AKA, instead of removing the punk, you remove the cyber.

I know there was recently a Kickstarter for a Biopunk RPG, but while the concept engaged me, the KS itself didn't grab me enough to pledge.

Quote from: videopete;1092619To cut right down to it, if you take the punk pit of cyberpunk, you dont just get transhumanism you get post cyberpunk. Where instead of urban decay, rampant greed and tearing down the status qou.  You are establishing the new qou, you are building something better, its a goal towards.  Cyberpunk can be thought as a technologicsl sociological dark age, post cyberpunk is not so much a golden age but a renaissance towards enlightenment.

Excellent point. I'm not a fan of post-cyberpunk literature but its definitely a genre. Much more Brighthammer than Grimdark. For me, post-CP isn't very gameable, but others might enjoy the concept as "heroic near future".

Quote from: videopete;1092619Transhumanism is a philosophy or idea that man has gotten so advanced that they not  nature are predominantly the driving mechanism of development, so we should start to take a more firm control. That eventually the idea of what is human expands, as a post scaricity humanity journeys towards the singularity. The key point in all of this is the idea of realized true hope for a better tommorow.

For me, "Transhumanism gone bad" is the next step beyond cyberpunk. However, that period tends to be brief before the world blows itself into the post-apocalyptic genre. AKA, as soon as Man reaches post-scarcity he looks around and decides to murder each other for non-resource reasons.

Quote from: Slambo;1092626Big 4 of thrash metal you mean. Just wanna make that clear. Personally I prefer power metal, but that's neither here nor there. Like you said, metal has a HUGE number of subgenres, and outside of the thrash subgenre not many people care about those bands, I don't go to many concerts but last I heard Thrash wasn't quite as big as it used to be either.

#1 - Get your ass to more concerts! :D I see guys in wheelchairs in the pit so zero excuses. At Slipknot's Knotfest during Slayer's set, we even crowdsurfed a dude in his wheelchair and got him over the rail. And I see parents bringing their kids too!

#2 - If you're a power metal fan, catch Gloryhammer ASAP. I saw them again on Friday night and they're incredibly cheesy D&D-metal fun. The 1720 club in LA was packed and thrilled.

#3 - Thrash is doing great, especially as its rarely "pure thrash" and weaved into so many subgenres. In LA, any metal concert that has multiple opening acts almost always has at least one thrash band.

Quote from: jeff37923;1092627At first I just used Roadstriker II and then Maximum Metal to make powered armor for C-SWAT so that they had an edge in combating cyberpsychos. Of course this lead to an arms race between C-SWAT, the Corps, and the Feds (with the Corps selling some restricted cyberware to the street gangs so that they could commit crimes with plausible deniability by the Corps and cause C-SWAT to buy more powered armor and weapons in order to combat the street gangs....).

HAHAH!! Me too! Man the look my players faces if I ever even reached for Roadstrikers or Maximum Metal... the *LOOK*... It took me a few turns of dealing with players that wanted to play .04 Humanity home-grown borg-conversions before I took Maximum Mike's own words to heart.

If they want to be monsters, the world at large will react accordingly. The Dragon helicopter is called "The Dragon" for a reason after all. And at a certain point... borg'ed out PC's become the real monsters, and Maximum Metal was certainly the answer.

Ah...the CP2020 memories. We had a crew of mostly borg'd PCs and we were in corp building laying waste to the opposition. The GM had nothing that could stop us (he only had the core book)...muhahaha total teenage power trip...and then the corp called in a missile strike on their own building...

Yeah, we were invincible...under 100k tons of rumble.

The GM even joked the corp had the building insured!

Quote from: Spinachcat;1092657Ah...the CP2020 memories. We had a crew of mostly borg'd PCs and we were in corp building laying waste to the opposition. The GM had nothing that could stop us (he only had the core book)...muhahaha total teenage power trip...and then the corp called in a missile strike on their own building...

Yeah, we were invincible...under 100k tons of rumble.

The GM even joked the corp had the building insured!

Good GM.

Quote from: tenbones;1092651HAHAH!! Me too! Man the look my players faces if I ever even reached for Roadstrikers or Maximum Metal... the *LOOK*... It took me a few turns of dealing with players that wanted to play .04 Humanity home-grown borg-conversions before I took Maximum Mike's own words to heart.

I still smile remembering one Player of a near full borg conversion going all bug-eyed and screaming, "We're going to be fighting mecha!" when I first pulled out Roadstriker II on the party.

Quote from: tenbones;1092651If they want to be monsters, the world at large will react accordingly. The Dragon helicopter is called "The Dragon" for a reason after all. And at a certain point... borg'ed out PC's become the real monsters, and Maximum Metal was certainly the answer.

Far too many Players believe that they can murderhobo their way through campaign settings without consequences.

Quote from: trechriron;1092614I would be curious to know;

1) How would YOU remove the punk from your game? What would your setting look like? How would you setup the campaign?
2) Would you make any changes to the default CP2020 rules?
3) Would you make any changes to the history?

Removing the Punk

There's still a bit of "sticking it to the man" here, but I'm trying to replace the overt punk with conspiracy, noir, and despair.


System
I would not use CP 2020, but design something B/X-ish.
At zero HP or on crits: Roll on the "Lost Body Part" table.
Cyber-psychosis: Is a thing, and you roll on random tables to see what derangement you get.
Hacking: Fast, furious, and in realspace, so you avoid "the decker problem."


Alt-history (granted this is silly, but so is all cyberpunk alt-History)

2024: The government nationalizes Google, Facebook, and Twitter under the "emergency" of eliminating hate groups, but the real motivation is getting data on it's citizens.
2028: Corporate taxes are raised causing corporations to flee offshore. The economy tanks.  
2028: China annexes Taiwan. The US tries to interfere but does poorly. The economy collapses.
2030: China calls in its debt and the US can't pay. They want the west coast. We say No, they invade, and there's a land war. It doesn't go global nuclear because .
2032: Tactical nukes destroy Chicago and Milwaukee.
2034: After a costly war, a truce is reached. The US entrenches on the east coast. China has the west coast. The war-torn flyover states (the Badlands) and the irradiated Great Lakes region (the Wastelands) are lawless.


Trope toolbox
 
AI: Yes, but they are evil NPCs. The more you level up, the more they think you are a threat, and send things to kill you.  
Androids: Yes, see below.
Arcologies: Yes, but gritty like the plex in the Judge Dredd movie.
Corporate citizenship: Yes.
Cyberspace: No, see below.
Cyberware: Like CP 2020, but gunmetal instead of chrome.
Flying cars: Yes
Hacking: You hack the Net with solid holograms (think Tony Stark in the lab.) The Net is graphically represented with symbols and Matrix falling letters. You're always in realspace, so people can see what you're doing (and shoot you.)
Magic and elves: No. It's not Shadowrun.
Mutations: No. It's not Gamma World.
Nano: All PC's have nano in their bloodstream that heals them when they rest and powers cyberware. Otherwise, no.
Psionics: No.
Robots: Yes, not-so-smart security bots. No "Data" or "Guri."
Space travel: It's in the background, but it's not something PCs do.
Transhumanism: No, unless it was mentioned above.
Virtual Reality: An visual overlay to Realspace you can see with VR-glasses.


Classes

Fixer: You arrange deals. Sometimes the deal is stealing.  
Ghost: You don't exist in the Googleplex. A combo of Jack Reacher and Bruce Banner walking away to sad piano music.
Hacker: You break into data farms, and you deactivate security/surveillance systems.
Medic: You fix people.
Merc: You kill people.
Replicant: An experiment leftover from the war. People hate you and hunt you. You won't live. But then again, who does?


So, what do you do?

You are a deniable asset freelancing for different corporations. Your Rep is everything. Double-cross a corp and you will never work again. Your missions vary:

Infiltrate Lo Sang (former LA) or Shanghaicramento to steal the latest Chinese protoype siri-phone.
Scrounge the Badlands for weapons or experimental tech leftover from the war.
Hack into GoogFaceTwit server farms. Delete the fake news and upload the truth. Or steal data for profit.
Mad Max chases and paranoid fortified communities in the Badlands.
Seduce covert operatives or Q-tube celebs in Quebec or Anchorage, the new American premiere cities.
Try to stop the machinations of the AI princess.
If you get to 20th level, hide out in orange irradiated casinos like Deckard in BR 2049.

Aglondir, that's awesome!

I am working on a cyberpunk RPG project and I definitely agree on the importance of Conspiracy, Noir and Despair. I love your setting core. I'm going in a different direction, but I'm gonna give your ideas a good solid think.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1092643#1 - Get your ass to more concerts! :D I see guys in wheelchairs in the pit so zero excuses. At Slipknot's Knotfest during Slayer's set, we even crowdsurfed a dude in his wheelchair and got him over the rail. And I see parents bringing their kids too!

#2 - If you're a power metal fan, catch Gloryhammer ASAP. I saw them again on Friday night and they're incredibly cheesy D&D-metal fun. The 1720 club in LA was packed and thrilled.

#3 - Thrash is doing great, especially as its rarely "pure thrash" and weaved into so many subgenres. In LA, any metal concert that has multiple opening acts almost always has at least one thrash band.

Im a big gloryhammer fan, really want to see them live, but im nowhere near where they're touring. I really wish icould see them live. ive even run oneshots in the Kingdom of Fife. I really should talk on topic....

I dont like punk music too much myself, but theres really nothing stopping someone from making CyberMETAL. i think the main difference would be the characters outlook on wjats going on. I feel like they'd have more bravado and be more bombastic.

Quote from: jeff37923;1092671I still smile remembering one Player of a near full borg conversion going all bug-eyed and screaming, "We're going to be fighting mecha!" when I first pulled out Roadstriker II on the party.



Far too many Players believe that they can murderhobo their way through campaign settings without consequences.

Yeah that shit doesn't go far in CP2020. There's *always* something that will waste you. The key is to be subtle. I never mind players wanting to go the heavy borg-route. But most can't handle it.
And the inevitable occurs. Most times they just bring too much heat down on the rest of the PC's and they do the work for the authorities. heh

Quote from: jeff37923;1092671Far too many Players believe that they can murderhobo their way through campaign settings without consequences.

The best consequence of being a murderhobo is that you dont have to worry about those "quirky" NPCs that some DMs love.

Quote from: tenbones;1092487By definition - no. 1) There are people that like the idea of transhumanists. There are NO practicing transhumanists other than people that larp that while mutilating themselves. 2) SJW's are useful idiots of the establishment, they're not rebelling against the establishment. They *are* the establishment.

As of last check transhumanism included things like bodymodding. Low level bodymodding has actually caught up to the baser concepts now. Give it a few more years to a decade and we may see functional biograft tails and such. Still a long way from full on conversions but its advancing slowly.

And bodymodding has nothing to do with LARPing. It might play into a fantasy LARP. But so far have not seen anyone actually get a mod just for a LARP. Mainly because it can not be easily undone. Elf ear bodymod became really popular for a while after Lord of the Rings. Not because of LARPs or RPGs. So far.

Quote from: tenbones;1092491Not a bad analogy. The primary differences being the technology level.

Depends on the depiction. Ive seen alot of cyberpunk settings in game and fiction where if you scrubbed off the grunge youd have Star Trek TOS or Enterprise level tech. And a few that were way ahead of ST or even TNG.

Magic Nanotech. Ive gotten so damn sick of its overuse.

Quote from: Itachi;1092520Isn't this what the Android setting (and it's RPG counterpart, Shadow of the Beanstalker) do?

Far as I know. Not really. They just move the crime scene ip a few social levels. But theres still that bit of criminal grunge, or more. Been ages since had a look at Android.

Quote from: Shasarak;1092528To me Punk is always going to be Vivian from the Young Ones

Punk was a swear word in the Red Limit Freeway series.

Quote from: Dimitrios;1092576That will be tricky if we can't agree on what punk is.

Its also carny slang for a preserved stone baby. That that is drifting into Lovecraf country rather than Cyberpunk land. Cthulhupunk? wait. Theres an RPG called that allready...

Perhaps you could have Cyber not-punk game where something like The Soviet Union controls much of the world with MegaCorp allies. They would also have something like Hitler Youth where they have SJWs going around in gangs and basically being a Law force unto themselves. The world would have a resistance group that is actually more diverse than the SJWs and their MegaCorp allies.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1092689Aglondir, that's awesome!

I am working on a cyberpunk RPG project and I definitely agree on the importance of Conspiracy, Noir and Despair. I love your setting core. I'm going in a different direction, but I'm gonna give your ideas a good solid think.

Thanks!  Its still rough,  and Im not sure about the Mad Max angle, which is an attempt to cover CP's nomads. And I forgot rockerboys, but they don't really work with the despair mood.

Quote from: Aglondir;1092727And I forgot rockerboys, but they don't really work with the despair mood.

CP2020 is pretty flexible and can support a variety of play styles, which is I think one of the keys to its success. You can do GrimDark, you can do borged out craziness, or "tough mercs kicking ass", or futuristic mega-heists & etc.

One of our longer running campaigns was centered on a touring band and their mostly nomad security team. We didn't really focus too much on the "Dark Future everything is screwed" aspects of the setting.

Agreed.

CP2020 pretty much covers all the bases. Including space! Near Orbit and Deep Space are *awesome* books. When I saw "The Expanse" tv-show it immediately called me back to those books.

The idea in CP2020 is that within the confines of the cities you can have everything from the corporate high-rise "cloud city" types environments, to street-level noir and crime. To down and out gritty underbelly knives in the sewers type adventures. Outside the city it's Road Warrior's of the Wasteland in between the major city hubs. With plenty of possibilities all around. Exploration (lots of locations where corporations and governments are doing "things", or abandoned cities (some of the major cities have been totally abandoned due to "plagues"). I've had literal "dungeon crawls" in CP2020.

And you definitely need conspiracy in cyberpunk. It's a must. The corps and the government are always doing something, testing something, with horrible consequences that the PC's get wind of/become victim to/witness, and there's always good money to be made in preventing/stopping/stealing it by the competition (which may be you).

Crime Drama - literally anything from competing crime syndicates/organized crime, to police-procedural, to prison campaigns can be run. Or maybe all at once.

Military action - The life of mercenaries is colorful and dangerous. They need an entire team to make it work. Corps to run the business end, embedded journalists that might be just covering the mission for training purposes/liability, Fixers that handle all the gear acquisition/collection/scrounger role, Medics and Solos - obviously. you get the drift.

It's all there.

And at no time did I say the word "punk". Because the spirit of the idea should be exemplified in play to whatever degree the players want it and the GM emphasizes it.

How about the Black Mirror show? Could it be considered a modernized/punk-less cyberpunk?

Quote from: tenbones;1092745CP2020 pretty much covers all the bases. Including space! Near Orbit and Deep Space are *awesome* books. When I saw "The Expanse" tv-show it immediately called me back to those books.

I've never seen those, but I'll give them a look. I'm reconsidering my previous "no space" angle. The trick is I don't want my game to stray too far into science fiction or too far into post-apoc.

Quote from: Aglondir;1092754I've never seen those, but I'll give them a look. I'm reconsidering my previous "no space" angle. The trick is I don't want my game to stray too far into science fiction or too far into post-apoc.

Well it's *super* dangerous in space. Highrider culture is massively influenced by the poor Africans that were used as cheap labor up there, so the tone is "space sci-fi with grit". Very much like The Expanse tv show (and books). Adventures there have to be pretty focused, your usual cyberpunk hijinks will likely *kill* everyone. Especially since you can't use normal firearms reliably (well you can... but you're probably going to *kill* everyone and yourself). It's worth a look. I've had my players run secret exfiltrations, assassinations, and maybe a run-in with one of the fabled "Angels" the order of Eurosolo's that were the best of the best. Always a good time.

Quote from: Itachi;1092752How about the Black Mirror show? Could it be considered a modernized/punk-less cyberpunk?

There are DEFINITELY strong strains of the dystopian madness of cyberpunk in that show. No punk. All dystopia.

I think that "punk" as it relates to cyberpunk is mainly about infusing the sci fi elements with a cool aesthetic sense.

It isn't really punk, per se. It takes some elements from the punk rock scene: mohawks, tattoos, Doc Martens. But it also steals from 80's metal and new wave, and movies and from mainstream fashions. Anything and everything.

Rob Halford from Judas Priest would be a perfectly good template for a cyberpunk character, and his look was stolen from the gay bondage scene.

But you could also steal from a Nagel print, or Hong Kong, or anime, or Highlander.

You could easily do a cyberpunk story set in modern day Africa, where the Chinese megacorps are setting up colonies, building infrastructure, and locking up mineral rights.

Quote from: Lurkndog;1093091I think that "punk" as it relates to cyberpunk is mainly about infusing the sci fi elements with a fashionable aesthetic.

It isn't really punk, per se. It takes some elements from the punk rock scene: mohawks, tattoos, Doc Martens. But it also steals from 80's metal and new wave, and movies and from mainstream fashions. Anything and everything.

Rob Halford from Judas Priest would be a perfectly good template for a cyberpunk character, and his look was stolen from the gay bondage scene.

But you could also steal from a Nagel print, or Hong Kong, or anime, or Highlander.

You could easily do a cyberpunk story set in modern day Africa, where the Chinese megacorps are setting up colonies, building infrastructure, and locking up mineral rights.

....
Corporate Full Borg Fashionista
....

[ATTACH=CONFIG]3537[/ATTACH]

Quote from: jeff37923;1093093....
Corporate Full Borg Fashionista
....

[ATTACH=CONFIG]3537[/ATTACH]

That'll get a whistle out of R2D2!

Quote from: Lurkndog;1093091You could easily do a cyberpunk story set in modern day Africa, where the Chinese megacorps are setting up colonies, building infrastructure, and locking up mineral rights.

I used to use Africa as a setting for my CP/SR games in the 90s, but I'd be hesitant using it at a convention game these days, especially in California, the land of instantly offended retards.

Africa is terrific for CP because its got it all. You have cities, but huge lawless terrain in between, and huge amount of resources the rest of the world wants, and like using Japan, there is the constant tension between the Old Ways and the New Ways.

And because Africa is huge, it supports sandbox travel allowing PCs to operate somewhere else while the heat dies down from their last run. If you shit yourself in Neo-Tokyo, you're dead. There just isn't enough places to run where the high tech eyes won't find you. But Africa offers PCs lots of room to run, but only to run into worse problems.

Like ebola zombies...

Quote from: Spinachcat;1093132ebola zombies...

Have to remember that for this halloween

Quote from: Omega;1092704Magic Nanotech. Ive gotten so damn sick of its overuse.

Yes.

Quote from: everloss;1092515Just reading the first page and I'm shaking my head at how wrong all of you are about punk music/art/culture. It's like watching a bunch of nerds who have no connection to something they are criticizing but all patting themselves on the back for how they criticize the thing they not only don't understand but have no desire to understand. Fascinating.

I am 100% with you on this one. I was about to post in response to a number of things said but then the list became so long that I rather ditched the thought. And I have only read to post #42.

Quote from: everloss;1092515Pretty sure that's metal, not punk.

Disagree, beginning with metal today being the music of the parent generation and ending with that attitude not having been exclusive to either. And that's ignoring crossover.

Quote from: NeonAce;1092574To say any of this requires highly selective looks of the genres in question. You can just as easily find tantrums in metal music, whether it be Nu-metal Limp Bizkit yelling about being angry on "One of those days" yelling "Give me something to break!" or Tungsten's weird wounded/misogynistic "I don't need your cunt!" to a number of cringe-y pretend-Satanic bands that have been involved in some pretty embarrassing stuff. On the other hand, there have been a fair number of anti-war metal tracks, or Anthrax has a sizable amount of anti-racist/anti-hate style stuff. Then, this all blends. I mean, thrash metal as a genre is widely understood to be born of a cross-breeding of metal and hardcore punk. You have the speed of your hardcore punk bands like Minor Threat & Bad Brains, your early pre-Blind era Corrosion of Conformity, pre-major label Prong, Discharge (the D-Beat!). Then you get DRI & S.O.D. (which of course has Scott Ian of Anthrax in it), and it's just progressively crossed with the heaviness and precision of metal, and that's the story of the crossover. Metallica covers punk bands on Garage Days... obviously! The Tribute to the Bad Brains album is full of metal bands covering the Bad Brains (Sepultura, Entombed, Downset).

I dunno, I'm having to agree with everyloss' "It's like watching a bunch of nerds who have no connection to something they are criticizing but all patting themselves on the back for how they criticize the thing they not only don't understand but have no desire to understand" comment.

Agree with everything.

Quote from: Trond;1092595That is far more cherry-picking than I did though

Nobody who has been part of the metal scene in the 80s/early 90s can say with a straight face that the mere act of growing long hair as a guy (and "listening to this noise") hasn't been an act of rebellion against the parent generation. Also, here's some more cherry-picking:
[video=youtube;dxenmxwgZsk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxenmxwgZsk[/youtube]

12 pages and no-one here has gotten it right.

The Punk ethos of Cyberpunk is summed up thusly: "The street finds its own uses for things."

It's from the short story "Burning Chrome" by Gibson.  The idea behind that is one of a societal or social re-purposing of technology or ideas to suit a wholly different need, usually one of a more base need or want.  The context of the quote is the character Automatic Jack, in the story, in a moment of self-loathing consumes vodka with vasopressin, a drug used to treat Alzheimer's (that is, it amplifies and makes memories more acute).  The alcohol makes him moody and depressed about failed relationships and the vasopressin heightens the memories of the relationship and brings them in to sharp definition.  

Gibson's works are covered in and shot through with frameworks of those ideas.  Similarly, in "Dogfight", the two main characters both want a combat-awareness boosting amphetamine, one so he can win a local augmented reality video game tournament, the other so she can more accurately program a wearable hologram to complete her thesis.  Neither is an "acceptable use case" for the drug (although it could be argued that the narrator, the first character, is closer in intent of his use since it was originally for fighter pilots, and the AR game he wants to win is a flight sim).  In Johnny Mnemonic, the titular character's mind is augmented to use as a short term "flash drive" on which documents can be securely stored: he cannot know what is in his mind, since it is password-protected by those who put it there.  However, a carnival attraction that consists of a dolphin cybernetically augmented during "The War" (implied to be a limited third world war) to detect smart anti-ship mines, can use its sensors to sniff out the password and recover the data.  Both Johnny's storage capability and the dolphin's sensor gear are military in nature but used for at best shady practices.

Criminals, average people, hackers, etc., using technologies for different purposes, that's the Punk part.  It's a little different than trickle-down technology.  We have the Internet and sport drones (they're just battery powered RC planes, I still don't know why people go all gaga for them), and a dozen other entertainments and conveniences because of things that were originally military or hard-scientific in nature finding their way mostly legally to consumer products.  Cyberpunk "in real life" would be akin to, say, someone using the CCD seeker head from a Sidewinder missile to augment their digital camera, for example.

I don't know (or care) where or why the usual suspects decided that SocJus "owned" cyberpunk, but they don't.  Molly would've shot the lot of them with tranq rounds from her Fletcher, YT would've covered their car windows with impossible to remove, inward facing insulting bumper stickers, Case would've emptied their Patreon, GoFundMe and PayPal accounts and sold their identities to the local Yakuza as good organ donor material.

In closing I will say that Gibson at least somewhat predicted this horseshit in the Bridge Trilogy, I think it might be in All Tomorrow's Parties when the main character goes outside of the convenience store he works at and asks the transgendered hooker to please not do his business in front of the store, and is fired after said hooker sues the company for a case of hurt feelings.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1093138Have to remember that for this halloween

If you're not dodging them first.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;109315912 pages and no-one here has gotten it right.

Great post, I can use this. I just went to the library and checked out Burning Chrome. It's one of those books that somehow slipped by over the years.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;1093159In closing I will say that Gibson at least somewhat predicted this horseshit in the Bridge Trilogy, I think it might be in All Tomorrow's Parties when the main character goes outside of the convenience store he works at and asks the transgendered hooker to please not do his business in front of the store, and is fired after said hooker sues the company for a case of hurt feelings.

Proof that cyberpunk is SJW!  

Quote from: RandyB;1093176If you're not dodging them first.

That too.

Let's try wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyberpunk):

QuoteIn 1983 a short story written by Bruce Bethke, called Cyberpunk, was published in Amazing Stories. The term was picked up by Gardner Dozois, editor of Isaac Asimov's Science Fiction Magazine and popularized in his editorials. Bethke says he made two lists of words, one for technology, one for troublemakers, and experimented with combining them variously into compound words, consciously attempting to coin a term that encompassed both punk attitudes and high technology.

He described the idea thus:

    The kids who trashed my computer; their kids were going to be Holy Terrors, combining the ethical vacuity of teenagers with a technical fluency we adults could only guess at. Further, the parents and other adult authority figures of the early 21st Century were going to be terribly ill-equipped to deal with the first generation of teenagers who grew up truly "speaking computer."[16]

So the original thought behind Cyberpunk has been "apes toying with grenades".

Quote from: Omega;1092704Magic Nanotech. Ive gotten so damn sick of its overuse.

Quote from: Aglondir;1093148Yes.

Ditto.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;109315912 pages and no-one here has gotten it right.

The Punk ethos of Cyberpunk is summed up thusly: "The street finds its own uses for things."

I agree that "the street" finding its own uses is a KEY aspect of Cyberpunk, but I'm not sure how that represents the "punk" ethos.

Quote from: Alexander Kalinowski;1093205So the original thought behind Cyberpunk has been "apes toying with grenades".

For me, that's a BIG component of Cyberpunk society. Tech has shot forward too fast for humans to adapt and its driving them into barbarism and insanity.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;109315912 pages and no-one here has gotten it right.

The Punk ethos of Cyberpunk is summed up thusly: "The street finds its own uses for things."

Not that it really matters, but me, on page 9:

Quote from: NeonAce;1092637Still, when William Gibson writes "The street finds its own uses for things", he's referring to this. People who don't have money or power, creating and making things happen through scrappy, improvised means using the materials available.

Why you just don't play Post Cyberpunk instead?

Your Grandma with the Punk taken out of Cyberpunk -


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Your grandma on Cyberpunk

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Quote from: jeff37923;1093303Your Grandma on with the Punk taken out of Cyberpunk -


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Your grandma on Cyberpunk

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Anita Sarkeesian is the embodiment of the modern "Punk" culture of the 2010's.

Hipsters are the bastard children of Punk.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1093306Anita Sarkeesian is the embodiment of the modern "Punk" culture of the 2010's.

Hipsters are the bastard children of Punk.

I think its more they want to be punk and call themselves punk. Sure i dont like the music, but its not evil incarnate. I think punk is a label theyre trying to take. Iirc they tried to infiltrate metal too, but the whole metalgate thing lasted like 2 days and no one gave a fuck.

Quote from: Slambo;1093325I think its more they want to be punk and call themselves punk. Sure i dont like the music, but its not evil incarnate. I think punk is a label theyre trying to take. Iirc they tried to infiltrate metal too, but the whole metalgate thing lasted like 2 days and no one gave a fuck.

The difference is that with a few noted exceptions, punk culture has always been far-left.

Quote from: DarcyDettmann;1093297Why you just don't play Post Cyberpunk instead?

What is post-Cyberpunk?

Quote from: Aglondir;1093331What is post-Cyberpunk?

It's Cyberpunk who toke the advice of " Sheer the fuck up", the world still kinda shit, but you life isn't doomed to be horribad.

Ghost in The Shell: Stand Alone Complex, Appleseed, Bubblegum Crisis, Metal Gear Rising and, hell, even Cyberpunk 2020 (and think v3) are example of Post Cyberpunk.

Rule of Trumb: If the setting have SUN Light instead of 24/7 rain, it's probably Post Cyberpunk.

Here's a good breakdown of post-cyberpunk
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PostCyberPunk

I'm not a fan.

Here's some articles about the genre.

https://www.tor.com/2016/06/08/optimism-and-access-the-line-between-cyberpunk-and-post-cyberpunk/

https://www.neondystopia.com/cyberpunk-politics-philosophy/cyberpunk-post-cyberpunk-and-the-maturing-of-a-genre/

https://news.slashdot.org/story/99/10/08/2123255/notes-toward-a-postcyberpunk-manifesto

When I think of "post-cyberpunk" stories, I think of things like Walter Jon Williams' Angel Station, which are cyberpunk in tone and tech, but set 1-200 years later when spaceflight is common, or even FTL.

Though if you want to split hairs, Blade Runner is cyberpunk by definition, and it states/implies offworld colonies and FTL.

If you lose that edge of pessimism and film-noirish fashion sense, what you have is not post-cyberpunk, but simply regular sci fi.

Quote from: DarcyDettmann;1093345Rule of Trumb: If the setting have SUN Light instead of 24/7 rain, it's probably Post Cyberpunk.

Sunlight is a non-starter for me. Darkness, rain, fog, even snow, but no sunny days in my cyberpunk!

Quote from: TV Tropes articleWhat Post-Cyber Punk has that separates it from pure-Cyberpunk works, is an emphasis on positive socialization... protagonists as "anchored in their society rather than adrift in it. They have careers, friends, obligations, responsibilities, and all the trappings of an 'ordinary' life."

I can get with some of that, since I don't want murderhobos, but I'm not sure about the ordinary life part. I want cyberpunk heroes to have lives that are tense, troubled, on the edge, on the run... anything but ordinary.

Quote from: TV Tropes articleIf, however, you have a world that has some redeeming features, is not controlled by the State and/or Mega-Corp, technology isn't screwing everything up, and the protagonists are trying to fix social problems from within rather than rebelling against society from without, you have Post-Cyber Punk.

Yeah, I'm not interested in a cyberpunk RPG (or any RPG) that focuses on fixing social problems. I'm cool with players doing that, if that's what they want their character to do, but I don't want an RPG to be about that. On the other hand, I don't want it to be about rebelling against society either (that's the punk part.)

So all I can say is that Post-Cyberpunk is not what I am looking for.

Quote from: Aglondir;1093474I can get with some of that, since I don't want murderhobos, but I'm not sure about the ordinary life part. I want cyberpunk heroes to have lives that are tense, troubled, on the edge, on the run... anything but ordinary.

Be a police officer in Robocop or in Bubblegum Crisis, FUN TIMES 24/7.

Quote from: Itachi;1092752How about the Black Mirror show? Could it be considered a modernized/punk-less cyberpunk?

Depends on the episode? Some are not very cyberpunk at all. Some are just dystopias with some tech. And some are more cyber-bluecollar crime. The series from what I saw covered alot of subjects. Very akin to the original Outer Limits and its remake from the 90s. Especially the remake which tended to be very bleak about every other episode or more.

Quote from: tenbones;1092780Well it's *super* dangerous in space. Highrider culture is massively influenced by the poor Africans that were used as cheap labor up there, so the tone is "space sci-fi with grit". Very much like The Expanse tv show (and books). Adventures there have to be pretty focused, your usual cyberpunk hijinks will likely *kill* everyone. Especially since you can't use normal firearms reliably (well you can... but you're probably going to *kill* everyone and yourself). It's worth a look. I've had my players run secret exfiltrations, assassinations, and maybe a run-in with one of the fabled "Angels" the order of Eurosolo's that were the best of the best. Always a good time.

Sounds more like Outlander, with more tech. :cool:

Quote from: thedungeondelver;109315912 pages and no-one here has gotten it right.

The Punk ethos of Cyberpunk is summed up thusly: "The street finds its own uses for things."

Except right out the gate it wasnt even that. Some of the early stories covered everything from the street to the high class and all the grime and glamour in between.

Quote from: DarcyDettmann;1093476Be a police officer in Robocop or in Bubblegum Crisis, FUN TIMES 24/7.

Wasn't there was a Cyberpunk 2020 supplement about playing cops?

We played a whole campaign as a Trauma Team with a flying, armored ambulance. It was very cool and different and we kept getting pulled into crazy situations which was very fun. I went through at least 3 characters in that campaign! My first dude took a headshot in the first round of the first fight!

Quote from: Spinachcat;1093492Wasn't there was a Cyberpunk 2020 supplement about playing cops?

We played a whole campaign as a Trauma Team with a flying, armored ambulance. It was very cool and different and we kept getting pulled into crazy situations which was very fun. I went through at least 3 characters in that campaign! My first dude took a headshot in the first round of the first fight!

That is an awesome idea for a campaign...Makes me wanna get my CP2020 out of storage!

Sadly, I don't know if anyone in my area would actually be interested in playing a cyberpunk game.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1093492Wasn't there was a Cyberpunk 2020 supplement about playing cops?

Protect & Serve (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/59022/Protect--Serve)

Quote from: Spinachcat;1093492Wasn't there was a Cyberpunk 2020 supplement about playing cops?

We played a whole campaign as a Trauma Team with a flying, armored ambulance. It was very cool and different and we kept getting pulled into crazy situations which was very fun. I went through at least 3 characters in that campaign! My first dude took a headshot in the first round of the first fight!

Protect and Serve.  Edit: reverse polarity!

It's a decent resource book - the mechanics of some stuff in there was poorly done, but nothing that can't be tweaked.

Wildside is the Fixer book - it's *superb* for doing criminal stuff.

Quote from: DarcyDettmann;1093345It's Cyberpunk who toke the advice of " Sheer the fuck up", the world still kinda shit, but you life isn't doomed to be horribad.

Ghost in The Shell: Stand Alone Complex, Appleseed, Bubblegum Crisis, Metal Gear Rising and, hell, even Cyberpunk 2020 (and think v3) are example of Post Cyberpunk.

Rule of Trumb: If the setting have SUN Light instead of 24/7 rain, it's probably Post Cyberpunk.

The Bridge Trilogy is good post-cyberpunk.  The change of the world from "We're all dead via atomic war by 1986" to the "end of the USSR, everything's gonna be fine-ish" mood between the Sprawl Trilogy and the Bridge Trilogy are a great example of Post-Cyberpunk.  Snow Crash and The Diamond Age are also both good post-cyberpunk examples.

i'm very late to this party, but I thought the "punk" aspect was simply rebellion against the system. If you take that out of a near future game, you are probably left with a spies/mission impossible type set up. Shadowrun for example includes variants where the PCs are docwagon employees or corporate agents. I think it can work. But it isnt as fun, at least for me.

I'm late to this thread, and it is possible that someone has proposed or mentioned it already:

Instead of punk, why not ROCK ?

As i see it, Rock would have possibly all the adventurous trappings of Punk, without being totally fucked up.
There are still mega-corporations or at least enough giant ones to warrant corporate espionage, "running" and revealing or selling information.
Unlike Punk, as i see it, in "CyberRock" there may still be a civil life, but the civil life is only there to allow for stability, not for focussing on social problems.
But, there would also indeed be possible to be actual Heroes, revealing bad corporate practices or destroying malign cults, putting down cruel individuals, and so on.

I'd say anime like Ghost in the Shell and Bubblegum Crisis(the original series) are perfect for that.

Quote from: Catelf;1093596I'm late to this thread, and it is possible that someone has proposed or mentioned it already:

Instead of punk, why not ROCK ?

As i see it, Rock would have possibly all the adventurous trappings of Punk, without being totally fucked up.
There are still mega-corporations or at least enough giant ones to warrant corporate espionage, "running" and revealing or selling information.
Unlike Punk, as i see it, in "CyberRock" there may still be a civil life, but the civil life is only there to allow for stability, not for focussing on social problems.
But, there would also indeed be possible to be actual Heroes, revealing bad corporate practices or destroying malign cults, putting down cruel individuals, and so on.

I'd say anime like Ghost in the Shell and Bubblegum Crisis(the original series) are perfect for that.

I'm inclined to agree with that.

In fact, I have decided to outline my own futuristic setting that I have given the working title of CyberMetal as a reference to both cybernetics and heavy metal music and culture.

All the rebellion of Cyberpunk, but with no connotations to the toxic far-left orthodoxy of the Punk subculture.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1093602I'm inclined to agree with that.

In fact, I have decided to outline my own futuristic setting that I have given the working title of CyberMetal as a reference to both cybernetics and heavy metal music and culture.

All the rebellion of Cyberpunk, but with no connotations to the toxic far-left orthodoxy of the Punk subculture.

So... it's exactly the same as cyberpunk but with a different name?

Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;1093603So... it's exactly the same as cyberpunk but with a different name?

Possibly.

Except in CyberMetal, dyed hair and piercings are the uniforms of oppression. The jackboots of the 21st Century!

True resistance and rebellion comes in the form of anime and the culture of old-school rock and metal.

ANTIFA gangs are basically extra-legal paramilitaries for "woke" mega-corporations, like the Colectivos in modern-day Venezuela or an Anarcho-Communist version of the Weimar-era Freikorps, and they are common villains in a typical CyberMetal game, just like orcs and bandits in D&D.

The United States government is weakened and woke mega-corporations control the country and are a government unto themselves, paying lip service to the feds while secretly engaged in seditious collaboration with the Soviet Union and Maoist China (both of which still exist in the CyberMetal timeline)

Basically it's an exaggerated version of 2010's America where tyranny manifests as dyed hair, punk rock, hipster glasses, and identity politics while rebellion and freedom manifests as anime, edgy memes, violent video games, and classic rock/metal/oldies.

CyberMetal is a scathing indictment of Millennial values and culture and a celebration of the Baby Boomers, Generation X, and Generation Z.

And I just can't for the life of me understand why people say that there is no hope for this generation......  :rolleyes:

Quote from: jeff37923;1093606And I just can't for the life of me understand why people say that there is no hope for this generation......  :rolleyes:

Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit.

Also, as someone who claims to be an OG member of the original Punk culture of the 80's, you're partly responsible for this lunacy!

SJW's are just Millennial hipsters LARP'ing as Punks due to the inherent left-wing orthodoxy baked into punk culture.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1093604The United States government is weakened and woke mega-corporations control the country and are a government unto themselves, paying lip service to the feds while secretly engaged in seditious collaboration with the Soviet Union and Maoist China (both of which still exist in the CyberMetal timeline)

Nice!

You gotta add North Korea into the mix somehow.

Quote from: Aglondir;1093613Nice!

You gotta add North Korea into the mix somehow.

Of course! Don't forget the Warsaw Pact countries like East Germany, Poland, and Romania too!

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1093604Possibly.

Except in CyberMetal, dyed hair and piercings are the uniforms of oppression. The jackboots of the 21st Century!

True resistance and rebellion comes in the form of anime and the culture of old-school rock and metal.

ANTIFA gangs are basically extra-legal paramilitaries for "woke" mega-corporations, like the Colectivos in modern-day Venezuela or an Anarcho-Communist version of the Weimar-era Freikorps, and they are common villains in a typical CyberMetal game, just like orcs and bandits in D&D.

The United States government is weakened and woke mega-corporations control the country and are a government unto themselves, paying lip service to the feds while secretly engaged in seditious collaboration with the Soviet Union and Maoist China (both of which still exist in the CyberMetal timeline)

Basically it's an exaggerated version of 2010's America where tyranny manifests as dyed hair, punk rock, hipster glasses, and identity politics while rebellion and freedom manifests as anime, edgy memes, violent video games, and classic rock/metal/oldies.

CyberMetal is a scathing indictment of Millennial values and culture and a celebration of the Baby Boomers, Generation X, and Generation Z.

Hm, you are either joking, being sarcastic(how was it now with sarcasm and wit?) or totally ignorant on how, for instance, ANTIFA works.
I assume it is the first one, because your suggestion is too ridiculous.
Essentially, your scenario is still cyberpunk(no future, total desperate rebellion), just with different actors.

Quote from: Catelf;1093621Hm, you are either joking, being sarcastic(how was it now with sarcasm and wit?) or totally ignorant on how, for instance, ANTIFA works.
I assume it is the first one, because your suggestion is too ridiculous.
Essentially, your scenario is still cyberpunk(no future, total desperate rebellion), just with different actors.

No, I am not joking. Maybe I'm not the most accurate on my portrayal of ANTIFA operations, but I am firmly against them as they are a violent pro-communist movement.

Seriously, fuck ANTIFA.

Gotta say I like Cybermetal as a title!!

Personally, I don't want any real world politics in any of my RPGs, including my cyber...stuff. As much as I enjoyed CP 2020, it wasn't the real world analogs that excited me about the game. Same with Shadowrun which has its own political bent which we mostly ignored.

RPGs, first and foremost, should be about enabling escapism.

But what if you like only three power chords played with more enthusiasm than skill? (punk) :( Why do we have to slum it with minor keys and gravelly voices? (metal) :( They all sound redundant and dress in uniform anyway...

Can't we have billowy disco queens dressed in palazzo pants, or French café dressed mimes, as an aesthetic ethos instead? :) CyberCabaret! Ooh, the name gives me chills! It'll be like Starlight Express or Xanadu! :) Everyone will have roller skates, too!

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1093604Possibly.

Except in CyberMetal, dyed hair and piercings are the uniforms of oppression. The jackboots of the 21st Century!

True resistance and rebellion comes in the form of anime and the culture of old-school rock and metal.

ANTIFA gangs are basically extra-legal paramilitaries for "woke" mega-corporations, like the Colectivos in modern-day Venezuela or an Anarcho-Communist version of the Weimar-era Freikorps, and they are common villains in a typical CyberMetal game, just like orcs and bandits in D&D.

The United States government is weakened and woke mega-corporations control the country and are a government unto themselves, paying lip service to the feds while secretly engaged in seditious collaboration with the Soviet Union and Maoist China (both of which still exist in the CyberMetal timeline)

Basically it's an exaggerated version of 2010's America where tyranny manifests as dyed hair, punk rock, hipster glasses, and identity politics while rebellion and freedom manifests as anime, edgy memes, violent video games, and classic rock/metal/oldies.

CyberMetal is a scathing indictment of Millennial values and culture and a celebration of the Baby Boomers, Generation X, and Generation Z.

You know... I had a response for this. It appears to me... Doc... that it doesn't matter what the genre is. You seem to not really understand the genre, but instead want to slap anime, disco, glam-metal, and your romanticized views of Gen X over everything... without any context other than "SJWS are orcs."

Am I wrong here? How is your CyberMetal different from your views on WoD?

Quote from: Spinachcat;1093625Gotta say I like Cybermetal as a title!!

Personally, I don't want any real world politics in any of my RPGs, including my cyber...stuff. As much as I enjoyed CP 2020, it wasn't the real world analogs that excited me about the game. Same with Shadowrun which has its own political bent which we mostly ignored.

RPGs, first and foremost, should be about enabling escapism.

Bingo is your name-o.

Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;1093603So... it's exactly the same as cyberpunk but with a different name?

Another barely altered rehash brought to you by the OSR... ;)

my vision of Doc Sammy's Cyber-LARP - dancing to fight the T(y)ranny(tm)!

[video=youtube_share;zEOaRIPX5lg]https://youtu.be/zEOaRIPX5lg[/youtube]

Quote from: Spinachcat;1093625Gotta say I like Cybermetal as a title!!

Personally, I don't want any real world politics in any of my RPGs, including my cyber...stuff. As much as I enjoyed CP 2020, it wasn't the real world analogs that excited me about the game. Same with Shadowrun which has its own political bent which we mostly ignored.

RPGs, first and foremost, should be about enabling escapism.

Yeah, that's where I'm at too.

What's SR's political bent?

Quote from: tenbones;1093667You know... I had a response for this. It appears to me... Doc... that it doesn't matter what the genre is. You seem to not really understand the genre, but instead want to slap anime, disco, glam-metal, and your romanticized views of Gen X over everything... without any context other than "SJWS are orcs."

Am I wrong here? How is your CyberMetal different from your views on WoD?

I like you, tenbones. But you are wrong on this one.

CyberMetal is more tied into a scathing condemnation of postmodern culture and the worst generation in American history (my own generation, the Millennials) while my views on WoD are more about sticking it to the pretentious twats who ruined a once-great franchise.

There is escapism in CyberMetal if you want, but there can also be a sense of catharsis, especially in regards to the sheer political insanity of the 2010's that informed the creation of this idea.

Quote from: tenbones;1093670my vision of Doc Sammy's Cyber-LARP - dancing to fight the T(y)ranny(tm)!

[video=youtube_share;zEOaRIPX5lg]https://youtu.be/zEOaRIPX5lg[/youtube]

Who said anything about LARP?

Also, Germany sucks! But at least it's not the British Isles. Fuck the British Isles and the Anglo-Celtic teabaggers who dwell within. :D

Anyone who thinks beans and toast are a good combination or that you should mix milk with tea is a madman. Real men drink their tea ice cold and sweet!

i'm more of a fan of Italy and Southern Europe in general.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1093678I like you, tenbones. But you are wrong on this one.

I like you too Doc. Sometimes you need to rein it in a bit. Clarity of the idea is what is called for.... let's proceed!

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1093678CyberMetal is more tied into a scathing condemnation of postmodern culture and the worst generation in American history (my own generation, the Millennials) while my views on WoD are more about sticking it to the pretentious twats who ruined a once-great franchise.

But see Doc, aren't these the same thing? You got this axe to grind that's so goddamn big, it eclipses the entire sky of all possibilities. Case in point - your premise question: Taking the "punk" out of "cyberpunk" is awesome!

It's awesome only if our terms are defined - like any proposition. "What is Cyberpunk" - well we've been talking about that. "What is punk" - we've been talking about that too. Both concepts have many dimensions to them. George Alec Effinger's "cyberpunk" is extremely different from Neil Stephenson's in terms of setting. But in terms of themes, ideas, concepts, there is a TON of linkage and sinew both philosophically, and contextually. That's what makes a "genre". At no point is there punk bands blaring music on the Budayeen in Effinger's books. But it's cyberpunk-as-fuck.

It's what the characters do in relation to their setting that set that stage. The conceits of the genre define the genre.

So when you say "take the punk out of cyberpunk" - that's a tremendous gap that requires filling because the "punk" aesthetic - which is beyond just the music, it's the reason why the music exists, it's the reason why the culture churned out the punk-music movements - it's the clothing, the style, the aesthetic and all of it rolled into one. You don't get one without the others. By removing the concept of Punk from Cyberpunk - it changes the *entire* dynamic. And that's a fine discussion to have, truly.

But what you claim you're replacing it with... anime, SJW's, Metal, etc. is a big WTF? Those things *exist* in cyberpunk fiction. You're not inherently doing anything except wallpapering the presumed emergent surface-styles with others that don't contextually make sense - since those things are already in cyberpunk.

In other words you're conflating the small to replace the large when there is no contextual reason for it.

Case in point - for SJW's to be the "jackboots" oppressing everyone, that would mean Woke Corporations 1) have to actually make money. 2) Actually have spread their ideology worldwide AND be accepted 3) want to promote SJW jackboots to oppress people for no reason other than to do it. etc. etc. and someone in there - Metal!!!!!! and ANIME!!!!!!!!!

That's some tentpoles with a lot of space in-between them. It's like yelling "LIVER, Buttercream, and pork-rind sprinkles in motor-oil is the BESTEST Food evar!! served in my Disco-themed Restaurant, served by people dressed like the Wonder Twins and She-Ra.

And whether you're talking "cyberpunk" or "WoD" your hangups seem to be tossing your glitter around for a purpose other than creating a cogent game. How about this - can you propose a game concept that has *nothing* to do with SJW=Orcs, or how Disco rules, punk/goth sucks? We get it. We get it. But none of those things have anything to do with anything unless you give us a reason why in a game. And frankly, I'm not sure it matters... if even possible.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1093678There is escapism in CyberMetal if you want, but there can also be a sense of catharsis, especially in regards to the sheer political insanity of the 2010's that informed the creation of this idea.

I don't know about you... but I lived through all of this. I've lived in actual third-world hellholes that make the poorest parts of America look like fucking Disneyland. I lived through the rise of Disco and post-disco punk-era. I lived through the rise of New Wave, the golden age of Alternative rock, Metal, and everything up til now. Many of us actually were around when the Soviets fell. Some of us remember *actual* hippies. Some of us remember life before "Pong".

What I'm getting at is... you're a Millennial. You romanticize shit many of us actually lived through. You have a weird way of trying to lambaste and exalt shit with *zero* nuance. There IS nuance. When you say "Punk sucks!" wtf does that mean? When you say Goth sucks - there's a LOT of stuff to cover by blasting out hot-sports opinions from your blanket-statement bazooka. Simply saying "we're wrong" without actually getting into the meat of the discussion is a crappy way to discuss things, frankly. Worse - since we lived through that shit, maybe you should talk/ask about some of those nuances before making assumptions? I'm sure there's a LOT of differing opinions about the shit you pretend to like that you didn't actually experience that we actually did. Just a thought.

If you're talking in good faith about a game concept. Well start explaining how your confetti-vision of Cybermetal should make sense? Because it sounds like a clowned up version of normal cyberpunk. If that's what you intended - we're cool. The constant insistence it's not... has me worried.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1093678Who said anything about LARP?

It was a joke. <--There I literally spelled it out.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1093678Also, Germany sucks! But at least it's not the British Isles. Fuck the British Isles and the Anglo-Celtic teabaggers who dwell within. :D

Anyone who thinks beans and toast are a good combination or that you should mix milk with tea is a madman. Real men drink their tea ice cold and sweet!

i'm more of a fan of Italy and Southern Europe in general.

And this is exactly what I'm talking about. More bazooka blasts of blanket statements. You know... as an observation: you have a LOT of qualities that your erstwhile adversaries in the SJW-Goon squad have. They make blanket statements, perceive things in superficial ways in order to justify their outrage. Can't get out of their neo-fascist bubble. Your bubble isn't necessarily fascist, but it seems to be very much filled with anime posters, and Punk/Goth effigies burning on Roman pyres in sacrifice, with altars to Justin Achilli filled with blood all jam-packed in there with you, with "Boogie Wonderland" blaring in the background.

Besides, no real man drinks fucking "sweet tea". That's for inbreds. c'mon!

Quote from: tenbones;1093694Besides, no real man drinks fucking "sweet tea". That's for inbreds. c'mon!

C'MON AND FITE ME BRO not really

Quote from: tenbones;1093694Verse

Now that... that's fucking poetry


[ATTACH=CONFIG]3554[/ATTACH]

Gotta disagree with tenbones on this one...even though he's right.

Doc, please go write Cybermetal with your 100% unadulterated Millennial lack of nuance.

Don't talk about it. Go.write.it.

Then playtest it.

Then publish it. (via DriveThru and Amazon Kindle, aka it will cost you extremely little to get it to market)

Why? Because Doc, you're clearly emotional about your anti-SJW thoughts. There's real energy there. Authors need energy and inspiration far more than nuance, facts or ties to reality. Translate that energy to the page and who knows what the final product will look like.

Quote from: Opaopajr;1093628Can't we have billowy disco queens dressed in palazzo pants, or French café dressed mimes, as an aesthetic ethos instead? :) CyberCabaret! Ooh, the name gives me chills! It'll be like Starlight Express or Xanadu! :) Everyone will have roller skates, too!

Where is our Disco resurgence??? Palazzo pants definitely are back in style.

Quote from: Aglondir;1093677What's SR's political bent?

The authors' Native American fetish is rather heavy handed.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1093738Doc, please go write Cybermetal with your 100% unadulterated Millennial lack of nuance.

You should definitely publish it, Doc. Find an OGL system as a starting point, then drop in content. Channel all of that passion and energy into a PDF. I'll buy it.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1093738The authors' Native American fetish is rather heavy handed.

I remember that. They had a character template called "the brave" which was really lame compared to the others. And spirit shamans (?) and something about the Ghost Dance. I doubt you could write that stuff today, due to cultural appropriation. But that actually might be a good thing considering the quality. It was about the same time that the faux Native American stores were popping up in the malls, selling turquoise jewelry and dreamcatchers, only to vanish one summer later.

Quote from: OpaopajrCyberCabaret! Ooh, the name gives me chills! It'll be like Starlight Express or Xanadu! Everyone will have roller skates, too!

And now
Open your eyes and see
What we have made is real
We are in Xanadu...

Another project I'd love to do. But not Cyberpunk, it would be an urban fantasy game, a parody of Onyx Path's Scion. The players are enthralled or enchanted by one of The Muses and get powers based on their patron. The adventures center around a cross-dimensional nightclub. Probably PbtA to add to the parody.

• Thalia ("The Cheerful One") was the Muse of Comedy and was often portrayed holding a comic mask or a shepherd's crook;
• Urania ("The Heavenly One") was the Muse of Astronomy, and you can often see her holding a globe;
• Melpomene ("She Who Sings") was the Muse of Tragedy, and she is either holding a tragic mask or some other symbol of tragedy (sword, club, buskins);
• Polyhymnia ("She of the Many Hymns") was the Muse of Hymns and sacred poetry, often depicted with a pensive look hidden behind a veil;
• Erato ("The Lovely One") was the Muse of Lyric Poetry; naturally, she's usually represented with a lyre;
• Calliope ("The One with a Beautiful Voice") was the Muse of Epic Poetry; Hesiod claims that she was the foremost among the nine, since "she attends on worshipful princes"; Calliope can often be seen holding a writing tablet;
• Clio ("The Celebrator," "The Proclaimer") was the Muse of History, and, quite fittingly, she usually holds a scroll;
• Euterpe ("She Who Pleases"), was the Muse of Flute-playing, which is why she is time and again portrayed with an aulos;
• Terpsichore ("The One Delighting in the Dance"), was the Muse of Choral Lyric and Dancing; as expected, she is usually shown dancing and sometimes holding a lyre.

Astronomy moves! Epic poetry! Roller skates! Immortal Gene Kelly!

Quote from: Aglondir;1093744You should definitely publish it, Doc. Find an OGL system as a starting point, then drop in content. Channel all of that passion and energy into a PDF. I'll buy it.

I can help him with selecting a system For starters I would recommend Cepheus Engine with the cybernetics add on.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1093623No, I am not joking. Maybe I'm not the most accurate on my portrayal of ANTIFA operations, but I am firmly against them as they are a violent pro-communist movement.

Seriously, fuck ANTIFA.

Ah, now THAT sentiment i understand fully ... despite me still calling myself a Leftie.
* smirks *


Anyway, Tenbones do have a great amount of pointers, so instead of repeating things he said better, i'll try my hand on describing how i see "Metal":

Of course it requires metal.
Be it chains, weapons, armor.
However, what do "Metal" do "socially" in the world?
It is Really Hard Rock.

Like ROCK, it is varied, just not as much, as it focusses more on the harder parts of it.
But, mind you, it goes both partially into punk and goth, but it puts its own twang to it.
Like, artificial zombies and blood-drinking as a style ...
But still, that is not the most important part.


It offers violence, and individuals that are tough in both mind and body.
It offers Heroics.
It offers POWER, more so than it offers rebellion.
However, the POWER is not granted freely, it usually comes from hardships, either before or after it is granted.
And no, the hardships that comes after is not easier to handle.

There is indeed a "Chrome" effect to Metal as well, something that is glistening bright, looks really nice, but that may or may not be as durable as the other Metal.


Now, added to "Cyber", you get a lot of full-body bionics, but also training regimens and drugs that puts today's steroids to shame,
including hi-sci(science) that adds metal to one's body.
Also, hi-tech armor like those for the Knight Sabers (or Iron Man), and similar.
So, you either Wear Metal, or ARE Metal ...
And add in bionics or equipment with shape-shifting properties, and you might become a cyber-werewolf hunting the Drone-Zombies and the Cyber Vamps.
Yet still ....

Social life?
Yes, there is some, it can be stable, or it might be not, but you often only truly live up on your time off, unless you're able to indulge in your hobby as your job.
After all, you might be a Performer or a Knight Guard ....
But then again, being a Ninja-Secretary could be cool too ....
:D

Quote from: Opaopajr;1093628Can't we have billowy disco queens dressed in palazzo pants, or French café dressed mimes, as an aesthetic ethos instead? :) CyberCabaret! Ooh, the name gives me chills! It'll be like Starlight Express or Xanadu! :) Everyone will have roller skates, too!

Life is a cabaret, old chum, Come to the Cabaret ....
:D

....Hm, i now think of mixing historical Shangdu with roller-skating Xanadu in a Techneon-styled setting ...

Quote from: Spinachcat;1093738Gotta disagree with tenbones on this one...even though he's right.

Doc, please go write Cybermetal with your 100% unadulterated Millennial lack of nuance.

Don't talk about it. Go.write.it.

Then playtest it.

Then publish it. (via DriveThru and Amazon Kindle, aka it will cost you extremely little to get it to market)

Why? Because Doc, you're clearly emotional about your anti-SJW thoughts. There's real energy there. Authors need energy and inspiration far more than nuance, facts or ties to reality. Translate that energy to the page and who knows what the final product will look like.

Yeah! I'm not saying it can't be done. That's the tantalizing question being posed. Cyberpunk without the Punk! Sure! Let's dig into it.

Doc's idea of Cybermetal seems to be... a bait-and-switch conceptually. So yeah - build it and sell it to me. I'm not feeling it as presented. I think Cyberpunk as a genre is already metal-as-fuck.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1093747I can help him with selecting a system For starters I would recommend Cepheus Engine with the cybernetics add on.

I'm definitely going to look into the Cepheus Engine. Does it have an OGL equivalent? If so, I will definitely look into it and see if I can use it.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1093806I'm definitely going to look into the Cepheus Engine. Does it have an OGL equivalent? If so, I will definitely look into it and see if I can use it.

Look at my Non D&D opengaming licensed rulesets, Cepheus is OGL Traveller retroclone and in DT you can find it in an editable doc and an add on called Cybernetics for the Cepheus Engine.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1093738Authors need energy and inspiration far more than nuance, facts or ties to reality. Translate that energy to the page and who knows what the final product will look like.

Probably like this....... (http://timecube.2enp.com/)

Quote from: jeff37923;1093814Probably like this....... (http://timecube.2enp.com/)

That is pure awesome. Somehow I have to use that in a game.

Here's the joke though.

If somebody told me they were writing a book about sparkling vampires who go to high school as something to pass the time with their immortality, and then a human girl starts hooking up with one of them, but she also likes the werewolf who also goes to high school....I'd look at them like they're nuts.

Twilight is a billion dollar franchise. That nutbag storyline make the author untold millions, and will continue cranking out cash to her for another decade. Her writing isn't anything notable, nor her storyline, but there is tremendous author energy in her early books and conviction that we should engage with her nonsense...and it clearly found an audience.

Nothing Doc Sammy is talking about is any nuttier to me than Twilight.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1093830Nothing Doc Sammy is talking about is any nuttier to me than Twilight.

and thus I am haunted.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1093830That is pure awesome. Somehow I have to use that in a game.

Here's the joke though.

If somebody told me they were writing a book about sparkling vampires who go to high school as something to pass the time with their immortality, and then a human girl starts hooking up with one of them, but she also likes the werewolf who also goes to high school....I'd look at them like they're nuts.

Twilight is a billion dollar franchise. That nutbag storyline make the author untold millions, and will continue cranking out cash to her for another decade. Her writing isn't anything notable, nor her storyline, but there is tremendous author energy in her early books and conviction that we should engage with her nonsense...and it clearly found an audience.

Nothing Doc Sammy is talking about is any nuttier to me than Twilight.

Except Doc Sammy isn't writing Teenage Paranormal Romance (which had never been popularized before). The closest that I can understand to what he is being cajoled into writing is a parody of Cyberpunk 2020. Yet to do good parody, you have to be familiar with what you are mocking and Doc Sammy has never read Cyberpunk 2020. The closest that he has gotten to the source material he is rallying against is online forum descriptions of the game and Wikipedia articles. What the result will be won't be a parody of Cyberpunk 2020, it will be a parody of millennials and modern culture with a veneer of gaming which is his own outlook that gets broad brush painted on anything that flips his switch.

Does Doc Sammy have the potential to create a good parody of Cyberpunk 2020? Yes. However, it will take more than just energy and inspiration to take the piss out of what has already been made - it will take nuance, facts, and ties to reality to have the knowledge needed to ridicule a game that has stood the test of time.

I don't think Doc's doing a CP 2020 parody. I think his Cybermetal is about expediting his Millennial anger and angst against his fellow Millennials using the trappings of cyberpunk as he imagines them to be.

What he lacks in facts will be created via imagination. Or not. All depends on how much author energy he actually has to sustain the project from that first blank page to that last final edited sentence.

That author energy is a weird thing. I recently met a woman who's written six books she published on Kindle. She's not successful, but she makes "fun money" and loves having fans clamoring for her next book, even it just a few dozen. And who knows if her next book goes viral...or not.  

Doc Sammy has made it clear he's just sitting on his ass at home. If Cybermetal really speaks to him, who knows if just finishing the project and expediting his Millennial issues might benefit him.

And if it rocks, some of us will buy it. If it sucks, we won't.

Quote from: Aglondir;1093677Yeah, that's where I'm at too.

What's SR's political bent?

Depends on the edition. In 1st ed core book it was about nil other than the elves and native americans being a bit too over the top racist. And the NA are that way because some corps went over the top stupid and essentially tried to exterminate them. But by the time the game starts things have mostly kinda-sorta-stabalized and the political aspects were fairly low to non-existent at least initially.

From what I can gather though seems that later books and sourcebooks were all over the place depending on the writer/s. Very YMMV I think.

Quote from: jeff37923;1093858Except Doc Sammy isn't writing Teenage Paranormal Romance (which had never been popularized before). The closest that I can understand to what he is being cajoled into writing is a parody of Cyberpunk 2020.

SJG beat him to it with the... Toonpunk setting for TOON!.

Quote from: Aglondir;1092388Spawning off from another thread.  Doc Sammy suggests



It's worth exploring.

What does the "punk" in CP mean?
What would CP look without it?
Has it been done before?
If so, what movies,  books,  or other media capture is essence?

My take is that this sort of describes post-cyberpunk. Maybe.

Dunno, maybe it looks more like the Ghost In The Shell series (as opposed to the movies). A little cleaner; working to uphold order, etc. The novel Islands in the Net also comes to mind.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1093329The difference is that with a few noted exceptions, punk culture has always been far-left.

This may be the most idiotic thing you've said on this forum, and that's saying a lot.

Punk has ALWAYS been internally divided between Anarchist-Right, Anarchist-Left, and Anarchists-who-don't-give-a-fuck-about-politics.

Notably, the two most famous original Punk bands were Anarchist-Right (the Ramones) and Anarchist-neutral (The Sex Pistols).

Taking the punk out of cyberpunk just means taking away the vaporware 80's-esque An-cap aesthetic.

Think making a setting that's basically the regular world + cybernetics and shit.
No NWO evil corporations, or extraterritoriality, or anarcho-communist biker gangs, or wageslaving.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1095091The two most famous original Punk bands were Anarchist-Right (the Ramones) and Anarchist-neutral (The Sex Pistols).

I always thought the Ramones were mostly neutral and mildly left-wing.
I did some deep research (wikipedia) and apparently they were conservatives.

Most punk bands I know of today are left-wing or neutral tho.

Quote from: A5paperboy;1095106I always thought the Ramones were mostly neutral and mildly left-wing.
I did some deep research (wikipedia) and apparently they were conservatives.

Most punk bands I know of today are left-wing or neutral tho.

It's kind of tough to say with the early punk bands. Hating on hippies was a big thing in the scene back then. That could make you look right wing, but I'm not sure it really qualifies as "politics".

Cybermetal = Voivod

Cybermetal makes me think of something like industrial metal. Ramstein and 3teeth etc.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1095091This may be the most idiotic thing you've said on this forum, and that's saying a lot.

Punk has ALWAYS been internally divided between Anarchist-Right, Anarchist-Left, and Anarchists-who-don't-give-a-fuck-about-politics.

Notably, the two most famous original Punk bands were Anarchist-Right (the Ramones) and Anarchist-neutral (The Sex Pistols).

I thought Joey Ramone was pretty liberal at least later in life? Dee Dee was definitely conservative.

Quote from: Dimitrios;1095110It's kind of tough to say with the early punk bands. Hating on hippies was a big thing in the scene back then. That could make you look right wing, but I'm not sure it really qualifies as "politics".

Sometimes punk bands did stuff to take the piss out of people too. Like, is Iggy Pop actually conservative or is he just trolling? Both? I know he's considered proto-punk.

Probably both.

Quote from: A5paperboy;1095119Cybermetal makes me think of something like industrial metal. Ramstein and 3teeth etc.

Nitzer Ebb?

Quote from: RPGPundit;1095091[...]
Punk has ALWAYS been internally divided between Anarchist-Right, Anarchist-Left, and Anarchists-who-don't-give-a-fuck-about-politics.

Notably, the two most famous original Punk bands were Anarchist-Right (the Ramones) and Anarchist-neutral (The Sex Pistols).

I like that this makes Anarchist an Alignment word, and Punk an Alignment-restricted class, at the same time. :D

Quote from: RPGPundit;1095091This may be the most idiotic thing you've said on this forum, and that's saying a lot.

Punk has ALWAYS been internally divided between Anarchist-Right, Anarchist-Left, and Anarchists-who-don't-give-a-fuck-about-politics.

Notably, the two most famous original Punk bands were Anarchist-Right (the Ramones) and Anarchist-neutral (The Sex Pistols).

This is hard to maintain if you take a look at how unpolitical oi punk bands are made to kowtow and profess what should be a given: that they're against fascism.

Nitzer Ebb aren't metal, but something similar

I think this thread is *way* overthinking things.

Quote from: tenbones;1095167I think this thread is *way* overthinking things.

That's half the fun of it

Let us now...

Quantify and discuss the spectrum of qualities, denotations, connotations, corollaries, inverse inferences and historical examples with citations as to what precisely is "fun".

GO!

Taking the punk out of cyberpunk leaves you with bog standard near future sci-fi. Cyborg/Six-Million Dollar Man. The Questor Tapes. Bubblegum Crisis. Tek War. etc.

Or you might end up with cybergoth! Or cybernoir! :cool:

Quote from: Omega;1095506Taking the punk out of cyberpunk leaves you with bog standard near future sci-fi. Cyborg/Six-Million Dollar Man. The Questor Tapes. Bubblegum Crisis. Tek War. etc.

Or you might end up with cybergoth! Or cybernoir! :cool:

Id say bubblegum crisis is cyberpunk, though its been over a decade since my last watch

Quote from: Slambo;1095509Id say bubblegum crisis is cyberpunk, though its been over a decade since my last watch

Bubblegum Crisis and AD Police are cyberpunk if for no other reason than they were both inspirational to Mike Pondsmith when he wrote Cyberpunk.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1093607Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit.

Also, as someone who claims to be an OG member of the original Punk culture of the 80's, you're partly responsible for this lunacy!

SJW's are just Millennial hipsters LARP'ing as Punks due to the inherent left-wing orthodoxy baked into punk culture.

Doc, I know your brain turns off whenever you see the word "Punk", but Cyberpunk has nothing to do with "Punk Music".  Being on the fringes of society and raging against the machine is nothing unique to Punk music.

The guy used Cyberpunk instead of Cybermetal or Cyberrebel or whatever, just because it sounded catchy and was close enough meaning.

It had NOTHING to do with actual Punk music, so quit redlining on the spectrum and join the rest of us back in reality.

Quote from: tenbones;1095464Let us now...

Quantify and discuss the spectrum of qualities, denotations, connotations, corollaries, inverse inferences and historical examples with citations as to what precisely is "fun".

GO!

"A Theory of Fun for Game Design" (https://www.amazon.com/Theory-Game-Design-Raph-Koster/dp/1449363210) is a good start. Koster discusses the emphemeral idea of "Fun", and then tries to quantify it with concrete examples. His central thesis is that fun games teach a skill, allow a player to explore that skill with a series of challenges, and then after the player masters that skill, they move on to the next challenge.

I realize you were being tongue-in-cheek, but I do think that exploring the idea of "Why is this fun?" is worthwhile. Most GMs can stumble around, putting things in their games and come to a fun experience, but analyzing why things are fun can help us put more fun things in games, and avoid not-fun things.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1095572"A Theory of Fun for Game Design" (https://www.amazon.com/Theory-Game-Design-Raph-Koster/dp/1449363210) is a good start. Koster discusses the emphemeral idea of "Fun", and then tries to quantify it with concrete examples. His central thesis is that fun games teach a skill, allow a player to explore that skill with a series of challenges, and then after the player masters that skill, they move on to the next challenge.

I realize you were being tongue-in-cheek, but I do think that exploring the idea of "Why is this fun?" is worthwhile. Most GMs can stumble around, putting things in their games and come to a fun experience, but analyzing why things are fun can help us put more fun things in games, and avoid not-fun things.

Balderdash!

Quote from: tenbones;1095590Balderdash!

Poppycock!

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1095596Poppycock!

Tommyrot!

(Actually doesn't have an opinion, just wanted to join in.)

While we're taking the punk out, maybe we should put gods in...

Japan's Buddhist temple in Kyoto has a robot teaching philosophy....apparently in the form of a godddess.
https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1091915/Japan-robot-God-robot-buddhist-Kyoto-temple-Kannon-Bodhisattva

Quote from: Omega;1095506Or you might end up with cybergoth! Or cybernoir! :cool:

I love the idea of cybergoth and cybernoir!

Tell us more how those subgenres would work!!

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1095572I realize you were being tongue-in-cheek, but I do think that exploring the idea of "Why is this fun?" is worthwhile. Most GMs can stumble around, putting things in their games and come to a fun experience, but analyzing why things are fun can help us put more fun things in games, and avoid not-fun things.

Agreed and please start a thread about this poppycock, balderdash and tommyrot!

It would be good to look at individual RPGs and look at the "fun" elements.

Quote from: jeff37923;1095515Bubblegum Crisis and AD Police are cyberpunk if for no other reason than they were both inspirational to Mike Pondsmith when he wrote Cyberpunk.

They are too clean societies to really be cyberpunk. Its more a blue-collar and up crime drama, with the occasional rampaging robot. Not enough grunge and street-level crime as it were. In a way it feels like a setting that has recently shrugged off its cyberpunk shackles and is staggering towards the light. Much like Appleseed+Tank Police.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1095695I love the idea of cybergoth and cybernoir!

Tell us more how those subgenres would work!!

Cybergoth would be I think pretty much what you get with Nights Edge. The CP2020 horror setting. Vampires, zombies, and so on. Or the Tharkhold cybergoth setting for Torg. Though it leans more to techno-horror than cybergothic. YMMV.

Cybernoir would be any of the various near or far future detective movies, anime, books, etc. Street level crime without the grunge. Somber instead of screaming. Tek War had that feel at times. Though more upbeat. Outland might be an example. Been ages since seen.

Quote from: Omega;1096080They are too clean societies to really be cyberpunk. Its more a blue-collar and up crime drama, with the occasional rampaging robot. Not enough grunge and street-level crime as it were. In a way it feels like a setting that has recently shrugged off its cyberpunk shackles and is staggering towards the light. Much like Appleseed+Tank Police.

Wait......

The AD Police episode The Ripper and its depiction of the junkie and prostitute inhabited subway system of "Paradise Loop"  didn't have enough street-level crime for you? The Phantom Woman, an episode which starts out with reconditioned boomers being used as "Tea House Girls" (again, prostitutes) didn't have enough grunge for you?

Quote from: jeff37923;1096089Wait......

The AD Police episode The Ripper and its depiction of the junkie and prostitute inhabited subway system of "Paradise Loop"  didn't have enough street-level crime for you? The Phantom Woman, an episode which starts out with reconditioned boomers being used as "Tea House Girls" (again, prostitutes) didn't have enough grunge for you?

I havent seen hardly any of AD police so will take your word on that. But from what little I did see that must have not been a dominating theme of the setting? Looking at BGC and ADP in general its a fairly clean and upbeat world. Rather than a bleak cyberpunk one.

Quote from: Omega;1096107I havent seen hardly any of AD police so will take your word on that. But from what little I did see that must have not been a dominating theme of the setting? Looking at BGC and ADP in general its a fairly clean and upbeat world. Rather than a bleak cyberpunk one.

You have a narrow definition of cyberpunk. De gustibus non est disputandum.

Quote from: RandyB;1096142You have a narrow definition of cyberpunk. De gustibus non est disputandum.

I think there is a deliniation between western literature Cyberpunk (Gibson, Williams) and eastern Anime/Manga Cyberpunk. (Shirow, et al.)

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1096146I think there is a deliniation between western literature Cyberpunk (Gibson, Williams) and eastern Anime/Manga Cyberpunk. (Shirow, et al.)

Good point. Cyberpunk 2020 is inspired by both, as per Pondsmith.

Punk = "ethical vacuity of socially misdirected youth" if you take Bethke's word for it. That matches the common meaning derived from the music genre and it matches the texture of a street-level SR or CP campaign, before characters ascend to professional street gods via gear and skills. In SR it's called "neoanarchy."

Quote from: Ghost;1096160In SR it's called "neoanarchy."

No, no, no... It's called Magicrun or Elfrun, because if you want real power you go Magic and never look back.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1095091This may be the most idiotic thing you've said on this forum, and that's saying a lot.

Punk has ALWAYS been internally divided between Anarchist-Right, Anarchist-Left, and Anarchists-who-don't-give-a-fuck-about-politics.

Notably, the two most famous original Punk bands were Anarchist-Right (the Ramones) and Anarchist-neutral (The Sex Pistols).

I did mention that the Ramones were right-wing, but guys like The Ramones or The Sex Pistols were the exception in punk, not the norm.

Anarchism in and of itself is a very left-wing ideology despite what whiny AnCaps may say.

Since Punk is inherently an anarchist subculture, then naturally there would be a strong undercurrent of far-left orthodoxy, which explains the existence of ANTIFA, dangerhairs, and the overall inclination towards Anarcho-Communist bullshit.

... anarchism is ideally supposed to be "stateless". Leftism ideally is trying to be non-hierarchical.

The problem is - in order to enforce a non-hierarchical order of pure egalitarianism, despite the natural biological drive for humans (and most animals) to form hierarchical structures, there is no known example of a "leftist" government that is non-hierarchical that doesn't create the very antithesis of what anarchism is demanding.

I have *no idea* wtf an "anarcho-communist" is other than a communist LARPing as an anarch in direct response to some perceived structure. At which point if they are successful, naturally they become the new boss, which is where they drop the "anarch" part and go full blast authoritarian/totalitarian twat-mode.

The premise of "cyberpunk" *usually* is the assumption of strong corporatism control run amok (crony-capitalism on gamma-irradiated steroids), with varying degrees of Government decay. I almost want to say that "civilization" is already in a state of anarchy on the fringe. So the "punk" is already happening. People are doing shit with technology, their lives, etc. on the fringe. These people are outliers/fodder/useful idiots only insofar as they don't upset the status-quo and keep consuming goods in their ever-shrinking consumer-lives.

People live in small boxes of pre-fab shit, leading pre-fab lives. In most cases these would be the NPC's of the world - and maybe where you start.

Your premise of "Taking the Punk Out" - would have to change all of these basic conceits. Drop the political shit. You're showing that you're only skimming the surface of these things, not looking into deeper ramifications that justify the genre. The cyberpunk genre encapsulates these ideas by showing the status-quo based on the premises of the high-to-the-low, the genre embraces it, not reforms it. Very rarely do you see cyberpunk genre heroes "winning", because that's not the point. They might score Pyrrhic victories, or small personal wins, but the world is dogshit before and after. Sometimes it's worse. "Punk" is not a political movement - no matter what people want to pretend (not a serious one). It's an expression in direct relation to the perceived status-quo.

Antifa are larpers that are pretending to be freedom fighters, fighting against Nazis that only exist in their minds. They're low-Empathy authoritarian little assholes. Calling them "punks" is probably a step up.

Quote from: tenbones;1096356... anarchism is ideally supposed to be "stateless". Leftism ideally is trying to be non-hierarchical.

The problem is - in order to enforce a non-hierarchical order of pure egalitarianism, despite the natural biological drive for humans (and most animals) to form hierarchical structures, there is no known example of a "leftist" government that is non-hierarchical that doesn't create the very antithesis of what anarchism is demanding.

I have *no idea* wtf an "anarcho-communist" is other than a communist LARPing as an anarch in direct response to some perceived structure. At which point if they are successful, naturally they become the new boss, which is where they drop the "anarch" part and go full blast authoritarian/totalitarian twat-mode.

The premise of "cyberpunk" *usually* is the assumption of strong corporatism control run amok (crony-capitalism on gamma-irradiated steroids), with varying degrees of Government decay. I almost want to say that "civilization" is already in a state of anarchy on the fringe. So the "punk" is already happening. People are doing shit with technology, their lives, etc. on the fringe. These people are outliers/fodder/useful idiots only insofar as they don't upset the status-quo and keep consuming goods in their ever-shrinking consumer-lives.

People live in small boxes of pre-fab shit, leading pre-fab lives. In most cases these would be the NPC's of the world - and maybe where you start.

Your premise of "Taking the Punk Out" - would have to change all of these basic conceits. Drop the political shit. You're showing that you're only skimming the surface of these things, not looking into deeper ramifications that justify the genre. The cyberpunk genre encapsulates these ideas by showing the status-quo based on the premises of the high-to-the-low, the genre embraces it, not reforms it. Very rarely do you see cyberpunk genre heroes "winning", because that's not the point. They might score Pyrrhic victories, or small personal wins, but the world is dogshit before and after. Sometimes it's worse. "Punk" is not a political movement - no matter what people want to pretend (not a serious one). It's an expression in direct relation to the perceived status-quo.

Antifa are larpers that are pretending to be freedom fighters, fighting against Nazis that only exist in their minds. They're low-Empathy authoritarian little assholes. Calling them "punks" is probably a step up.

Hmm, fair point.

I think this thread has taught me that I shouldn't "take the punk out of Cyberpunk" but instead keep the whiny punks LARP'ing as transhumanist commies (such as David "Olivia" Hill) away from Cyberpunk and trying to claim it as "theirs"

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1096374Hmm, fair point.

I think this thread has taught me that I shouldn't "take the punk out of Cyberpunk" but instead keep the whiny punks LARP'ing as transhumanist commies (such as David "Olivia" Hill) away from Cyberpunk and trying to claim it as "theirs"

No. You should take your vision of Cybermetal - and make it happen. Don't worry about what other people do in their games. At no point in my gaming history has someone outside my group and what they're doing in their game in some negative fashion informed me of how to enjoy my games with my group.

Otherwise you're trying to be just like what you think they're being (which may or may not be true).

Quote from: tenbones;1096382No. You should take your vision of Cybermetal - and make it happen. Don't worry about what other people do in their games. At no point in my gaming history has someone outside my group and what they're doing in their game in some negative fashion informed me of how to enjoy my games with my group.

Otherwise you're trying to be just like what you think they're being (which may or may not be true).

Don't worry, I will make Cybermetal happen!

I think I may have found a new creative streak in building the world of Cybermetal, because I've been writing down a lot of ideas for material.

Quote from: A5paperboy;1095103Taking the punk out of cyberpunk just means taking away the vaporware 80's-esque An-cap aesthetic.

Think making a setting that's basically the regular world + cybernetics and shit.
No NWO evil corporations, or extraterritoriality, or anarcho-communist biker gangs, or wageslaving.

In short bland and not really all that super interesting to play in.

Quote from: Omega;1096080They are too clean societies to really be cyberpunk. Its more a blue-collar and up crime drama, with the occasional rampaging robot. Not enough grunge and street-level crime as it were. In a way it feels like a setting that has recently shrugged off its cyberpunk shackles and is staggering towards the light. Much like Appleseed+Tank Police.

I agree with jeff you are jumping the shark on this you don't need to have the thing dealing with crack heads on a day to day basis to be cyberpunk and you don't even need to have seen AD police remember the sexroids trying to escape in bubble gum crisis ? Heck even Babylon 5 had a lot of cyber punk in it even though the story didn't normally go that direction. The thing is both shows are told from a blue collar work level but that dose not disqualify them as cyberpunk. For that matter seeing the world from the relatively normal blue collar level can make dealing or touching on the greater problems more impactful.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1096146I think there is a deliniation between western literature Cyberpunk (Gibson, Williams) and eastern Anime/Manga Cyberpunk. (Shirow, et al.)

Yes and no they are both different in style but they are both still cyberpunk.

Quote from: kosmos1214;1096422The thing is both shows are told from a blue collar work level but that dose not disqualify them as cyberpunk. For that matter seeing the world from the relatively normal blue collar level can make dealing or touching on the greater problems more impactful.
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Yes and no they are both different in style but they are both still cyberpunk.

I disagree in general, event tough i admit that you have an obvious point.

The reason for my disagreement, is that you, as well as several others, makes the frequent mistake of thinking of genres like countries that has clear borders.
They are not.
They are more like circles in multiple Venn diagrams, with overlapping areas with other things .... and even more, those circles are often not even boundaries, but areas of influence, where the further away you get from the center, the less traction you get.

Bubblegum Crisis is within the "Cyberpunk" influence, yes, but it also is within the Mecha, the Superhero(possibly even the Super Sentai sub-genre), and the General Sci-fi Influences just as much, if not more.
This is what a lot here is forgetting.

Practically, if you take the punk out of Cyberpunk, you might still have some "Punk-like" things in it.
As i see it, Bubblegum Crisis has only very little "Punk", as ... sure, as some pointed out, there are prostitution, criminality, and misery, but mind you, that is not automatically "punk", as this do NOT affect the Main Characters On A Daily Basis !
And as such, it would also fit Rock, Noir, or even "Low Fantasy".... or why not "Grunge" ...
In some ways it would fit Goth as well.
I'd call Bubblegum Crisis "CyberRock", as it has several trappings of Cyberpunk, but it is far from hopeless, ans the Main Characters start out as ... heh ... Knights, skilled and armed to the teeth already.