What are you dojng with mgic, Spinichcat?  Vancian? spell points? With 5e trickling out, I like what I'm seeing there, with known vs. Prepared spells, spell slots and so on. Mechanics for casting heals or damage spells with higher level slots to empower them seem really nice.

Quote from: Spinachcat;770546That should be easy!

This is why most non-cyberpunk RPGs (and some cyberpunk ones, too) use a simple skill roll for hacking... But if you want hacking on the fly, you'll need very good guidelines about what can and cannot be hacked, and what you can do when you hack it, unlike SR4. You should also retain certain flavour...

Maybe do it a bit like spells ala Mass Effect's Tech powers?

Quote from: Koren n'Rhys;770557Re: Hacking, and the genre in general, I see Leverage as a great play model too, as well as Burn Notice. Rules wise, I'm leaning towards a mechanic based on the clerics turning table. Systems, AIs, etc have an HD rating you roll against there, as opposed to a more modern DC mechanic. I do like the idea of a critical sucess/failure though. Still thinking on how to implement that.

So you essentially either disable the system temporarily (turn), disable it permanently (destroy), take it over temporarily (rebuke) or take it over permanently (control)? Could actually be a great idea if your game has a lot of robots... Or you can give security cameras HD?

Quote from: Ladybird;770549You've also got the advantage that shadowrun and osr players both never expect to be going into a fair fight, always expect to have to work around the targets.

Very true. That gives me a design leeway. I agree that Leverage & Burn Notice are good models. I see this genre as tech/magic espionage where it makes sense to always avoid a fair fight and the opposition is supposed to be life-threatening.  Unlike D&D where the goal is often to clear out the dungeon and kill the Big Bad Guy, the goal in Shadowrun is to Get X and getting X often requires avoiding the BBG and his forces...or ambushing them and blowing them away before they can react.

Quote from: Koren n'Rhys;770557When and where? Your dead tech is no match for my mad phys ad abilities!

Awesome!

Quote from: Koren n'Rhys;770557Unfortunately,  I seem to spend WAY more time reading other games, forums and blogs than I do writing anything.

Me too.

Quote from: Koren n'Rhys;770557It sounds like you have all sorts of stuff in semi-playable form, so cheers!

My problem is that I'm rarely satisfied. I won a game design award in 2009 and I still haven't published that damn game because it "still needs editing" and in the meantime, I've tinkerbell'd over to various other projects instead of getting One Damn Thing Done Done Done!!!

Quote from: Koren n'Rhys;770557In any case, I'm aiming for small scale, free and mostly fun for me. Write what I want to play, tinker and add over time, and enjoy the process.

That's healthier than worrying about publishing and trying to please people outside of your home crew when somebody else is GMing your stuff.

The most painful part of the playtest process is watching somebody else GM your game because that's when the flaws really start screaming out.

Quote from: Koren n'Rhys;770557Rules wise, I'm leaning towards a mechanic based on the clerics turning table. Systems, AIs, etc have an HD rating you roll against there, as opposed to a more modern DC mechanic.

That's a really good idea. It's a fun way to bring Turn mechanic into a Shadowrun game.

Quote from: Koren n'Rhys;770558What are you doing with magic, Spinachcat?  Vancian? spell points?

Different rules for different classes. Definitely a Vancian option somewhere. Definitely rituals, especially for the shaman.

Magic is new and thus not fully understood and thus dangerous. Also the danger is exacerbated when trying to control magic beyond your level and trying to cast magic quick and dirty style to save time.

Corporate magic has the advantage of R&D. Street magic is raw.

Quote from: golan2072;770731This is why most non-cyberpunk RPGs (and some cyberpunk ones, too) use a simple skill roll for hacking...

And I'll do that too if I can't figure out a cool/fast/fun minigame to make hacking something that feels different and existing on another plane.

Quote from: golan2072;770731But if you want hacking on the fly, you'll need very good guidelines about what can and cannot be hacked, and what you can do when you hack it, unlike SR4. You should also retain certain flavour...

I am cool that anything can be hacked...with enough time. However, time is a resource and PCs will have to choose how and when to spend time.

Unlike a dungeon which will sit there waiting for PCs to loot it, the target of a shadowrun may only be accessible for an hour window tomorrow night.

Also, I believe in corporations employing cube farms of counter-hackers jacked into the Matrix roaming around looking for trouble. The goal of many deckers will be to slip in unnoticed, not just kick in cyberdoors like a digital barbarian.

As a OSR-ish game, I want to put lots of decision power in the GM's hands, but I will certainly give my thoughts on parameters for what can be hacked quickly and what happens when you do.

Quote from: golan2072;770731Maybe do it a bit like spells ala Mass Effect's Tech powers?

I've been playing with a similar idea. I like the idea of a Hacker having to load up his deck like a Vancian spellcaster somewhat, aka disposable programs that don't link back to the deck, once launched, the deck contains no trace, etc.

Quote from: golan2072;770732So you essentially either disable the system temporarily (turn), disable it permanently (destroy), take it over temporarily (rebuke) or take it over permanently (control)? Could actually be a great idea if your game has a lot of robots... Or you can give security cameras HD?

Damn, that sounds good.

Quote from: Spinachcat;771008Corporate magic has the advantage of R&D. Street magic is raw.

This is a situation where having an evolving metaplot and worldbooks would be really cool, so you could see it develop and Corp vs Street magic really differentiate themselves. But if you're still only a few years into it, I don't think that's enough time for corp magic to really have got anywhere interesting.

Quote from: Spinachcat;771008Magic is new and thus not fully understood and thus dangerous. Also the danger is exacerbated when trying to control magic beyond your level and trying to cast magic quick and dirty style to save time.

Corporate magic has the advantage of R&D. Street magic is raw.

Quote from: Ladybird;771013This is a situation where having an evolving metaplot and worldbooks would be really cool, so you could see it develop and Corp vs Street magic really differentiate themselves. But if you're still only a few years into it, I don't think that's enough time for corp magic to really have got anywhere interesting.

I'm not a big fan of publisher-defined setting evolution, but I'd agree that in this case, it would be a neat thing to model mechanically, somehow. I'm definitely looking forward to someday seeing how you pull all this together, Spinachcat.

I'm glad other people are trying to accomplish the same thing I am.  I mix and match bits from so many editions and systems that more options is ALWAYS better, and I love to see how differently people can approach similar issues in game design. I'm not sure if you're familiar with Jonathan Becker of the B/X Blackrazor blog.  He's published a couple B/X books and has posted at length about a B/X Shadowrun game he's writing and playtesting.  I like his other stuff, so the teasing posts are a bit maddening.  I wish he'd either get it done and out, or share the rough version if he's not going to finish it!

Quote from: Spinachcat;771010

Quote from: golan2072;770732So you essentially either disable the system temporarily (turn), disable it permanently (destroy), take it over temporarily (rebuke) or take it over permanently (control)? Could actually be a great idea if your game has a lot of robots... Or you can give security cameras HD?

Damn, that sounds good.

Essentially, yes, that's exactly how it'll work.  I haven't figured out the precise tiers yet.  Given the roll is 2d6, I think a critical failure on snake eyes (sets off alarm/call on-duty defense decker or IC) and critical success on box cards (gain control and program in back door access) are a given.  In between?  Based on the table, you get increasingly easy success, up to an auto-success - a basic spoof of security, gain control of a camera/elevator/etc, find sought data.  The higher level "destroy" results in gaining control, temporary reprogramming, system crash if desired -that sort of thing. Again, with a double 6 simply adding a permanent back-door for future access.

I want to model increased hacking ability vs. varying levels of system, so need something beyond a binary pass/fail hacking roll.  I also could see a version of reaction roll coming into play somehow, but I haven't figured out if I can cleanly combine that with the turning mechanic.  Maybe use that as a measure of how well the reprogramming worked on a "number" result, but a "T" is fully successful.

RE: Vancian "spell slots" got programs - I like this idea too, and have considered something along those lines. Single-use programs that give a bonus on the turning roll - either roll as X level, or at +X levels, or treat the target as X HD lower.  Have you seen Hulks & Horrors by John Berry? He does the "program slots" thing for his Scientist class. He also wrote Arcana Rising - essentially his version of B/X Shadowrun.

It always comes back around to the issue of decking forcing the game to grind to a halt for everyone else.  It's so integral to the genre that you want to offer some complexity without turning it into a mini-game, IMO.

BTW, are there any other threads here I haven't found that I should be following?

Quote from: Koren n'Rhys;771246I want to model increased hacking ability vs. varying levels of system, so need something beyond a binary pass/fail hacking roll.  I also could see a version of reaction roll coming into play somehow, but I haven't figured out if I can cleanly combine that with the turning mechanic.  Maybe use that as a measure of how well the reprogramming worked on a "number" result, but a "T" is fully successful.

So a "failed but not severely failed" hacking roll might cause an unexpected system malfunction instead of a successful hack? Something along those lines? "Turning" sounds like a good idea.

Quote from: Koren n'Rhys;771246RE: Vancian "spell slots" got programs - I like this idea too, and have considered something along those lines. Single-use programs that give a bonus on the turning roll - either roll as X level, or at +X levels, or treat the target as X HD lower.  Have you seen Hulks & Horrors by John Berry? He does the "program slots" thing for his Scientist class. He also wrote Arcana Rising - essentially his version of B/X Shadowrun.

It always comes back around to the issue of decking forcing the game to grind to a halt for everyone else.  It's so integral to the genre that you want to offer some complexity without turning it into a mini-game, IMO.

Yeah, that's always the danger of special rules for different character types. For what it's worth, I like the idea of "software/program slots" instead of "spell slots", and the varying levels of success. If it's not any more complicated than a wizard casting a spell, it shouldn't drag the game down.

Quote from: Koren n'Rhys;771246BTW, are there any other threads here I haven't found that I should be following?

Not a thread, but if you haven't done it already, go grab a copy of my full Corporia RPG from DriveThruRPG or RPGNow since you can get it for free (Pay What You Want) until August 1st, to celebrate the ENnie nom for Best Electronic Book.

Sorry that reads like an advertisement! I'm certainly not recommending it because I think it's the ultimate hacking system, but because I see you posting a lot of the same concerns and questions that I pondered when designing it last year. (Specifically see pages 18, 32-33, and 82-83.) It might help you to see how I approached those same problems, even if you only decide that what I did was horrible and you can think of better ideas.

For the most part, I went more binary with pass/fail, with the DM determining the difference between a bad roll and a really bad roll, or a good roll and a really good roll, etc.

I have been working on a supplement for my own OSR game (see signature below). It will be called Future Heroes & Witchery, with 100-110 pages of additional races, classes, equipment (including cybernetics), etc., and spells in a modern world (mostly borrowed from the d20 modern arcana SRD). So, while this is not specifically intended for a Shadowrun emulation, I think that in combining Fantastic H&W with Future H&W, one will have all the rules necessary to run a custom Shadowrun campaign at least one where cyberpunk meets with sorcery. There is 15 new classes, including among others: the Martial Artists (so with cybernetics added in, you get a "street samurai" easily), the Magitek Wizard (a wizard in the 21st century), or the Hacker.

Text is almost complete, but I will have to work on other stuff in the meantime, yet expect a release before end of the year.

Hi Turnail - thanks for your comments.  I'm certainly familiar with FH&W as a regular over at Dragonsfoot, and definitely look forward to a "future" version.  I have to admit it's a bit rules -heavy for my taste, but you've gone out of your way to squeeze in every possible option you could think of, so I can't fault you for being a completist!

Mark - Let's see...
"Unexpected malfunction" on a failure? - sure.  Might not set off any alarms right away, but would make for interesting consequences to a failure. I like that.

I had grabbed the free Corporia QS, but not the full game, despite it being PWYW.  I guess I should go do that now and see what you come up with. I always feel a little bad about picking one of those up for free, but I know if I ever actually played one, instead of merely thumbing through for ideas, I'd go back and throw the author a bit of cash.  I'll check it out.

Quote from: Ladybird;771013But if you're still only a few years into it, I don't think that's enough time for corp magic to really have got anywhere interesting.

I fully agree, but somehow a couple corps very quickly marketed their own magic...how they did this is one of the questions in the setting for the GM to answer as they like...or not.

I am a big fan of rumor charts where the GM chooses the "truth" (or truths) for their campaign.

Quote from: Koren n'Rhys;771222I'm not sure if you're familiar with Jonathan Becker of the B/X Blackrazor blog.  He's published a couple B/X books and has posted at length about a B/X Shadowrun game he's writing and playtesting.  

I know his blog, but I haven't followed his Cry Dark Future project.
http://bxblackrazor.blogspot.com/

Poke him to join this thread or start his own!

Quote from: Turanil;771277I have been working on a supplement for my own OSR game (see signature below).

Is anyone NOT writing a Shadowrun clone???

Looking forward to your work Turanil! In the meantime, post about your progress and ideas!  

Quote from: Mark Plemmons;771255So a "failed but not severely failed" hacking roll might cause an unexpected system malfunction instead of a successful hack?

Perhaps on a minor fail/almost success, the hacker has the choice to "force" the hack and set off alarms or the choice to have their hack just not work.

Quote from: Mark Plemmons;771255Not a thread, but if you haven't done it already, go grab a copy of my full Corporia RPG from DriveThruRPG or RPGNow since you can get it for free (Pay What You Want) until August 1st, to celebrate the ENnie nom for Best Electronic Book.

Pimp that book!!!

Quote from: Koren n'Rhys;771246I also could see a version of reaction roll coming into play somehow, but I haven't figured out if I can cleanly combine that with the turning mechanic.  Maybe use that as a measure of how well the reprogramming worked on a "number" result, but a "T" is fully successful.

What about expanding T and D to T1, T2, D1, D2 where higher Ts and Ds do more and give more options for the hacker. Also, hackers might be able to specialize in certain systems, giving them more latitude to do XYZ when they gain a T or D. That would be an interesting way to add class abilities too or create subclasses.

Quote from: Koren n'Rhys;771246Single-use programs that give a bonus on the turning roll - either roll as X level, or at +X levels, or treat the target as X HD lower.

I'd avoid modifying the die roll, but considering the Hacker at +/- level would work nicely.

My only concern is using a chart. I hate stopping the game to look anything up in books. I'd definitely integrate it into the character sheet.
 

Quote from: Koren n'Rhys;771246Have you seen Hulks & Horrors by John Berry?

John Berry goes by J Arcane on this forum and Hulks & Horrors rocks!

My ideas about hacking:

1) Anything which could be wired and which is expected to be hacked (e.g. security cameras, locks, cyberarms, most small arms, corporate mainframes etc) probably lacks wi-fi connectivity, as this would be too easy a target for hackers otherwise. Robots and "smart" vehicles, as well as personal smartphones, are possible to remote-hack. To hack anything lacking wi-fi, you need to locate the data trunk connected to it, and attach your C-Deck to it. With wi-fi, your C-Deck can hack remotely.

2) Hacking is by "turn undead" based on the tables of whatever OSR game you're basing this on. All hackable systems have "hit dice" based on their ICE, and "turning" is by hit-dice. You can either have user-level access (successful roll or a "T" result) or admin-level access (a "D" result). Once you hacked the system, the ICE gets to roll a detection roll against your deck's Stealth rating (which works just as an attack roll vs. AC). If it succeeds, you'll have to fight it (using cyber-AC and cyber-attack bonus). If it fails, you are undetected. This whole mess could be bypassed, of course, by "social engineering" - i.e. conning the passwords from employees at site and/or stealing it in any other way. This could be simultaneus to physical combat - i.e. your Fighting-Man is shooting at the big Sec-2 Robot, while your hacker is attacking its ICE at the same time using the same turn sequence.

3) Thus C-Decks have six ratings: Deck level (i.e. "Cleric" level; you can't effectively use a Deck level higher (or much higher?) than your hacker's class level, though), Stealth ("AC" vs. Detection), Detection ("to-hit vs. Stealth), Cyber-HP, Cyber-AC and Cyber-attack. Your Deck also has a "weapon" - Pulsar program which damages ICE or serves against a security decker, or the highly-illegal Hammer program, which is essentially "Black" ICE vs. security hackers.

4) Thus ICE have four ratings - HD/HP, Detection ("attack bonus"/THAC0 vs. Stealth), Cyber-AC and Cyber-attack.

5) ICE varies by what it can do to you if it damages you in cybercombat. "White" ICE simply damages your Deck's cyber-HP, and if they go to zero you crash, but can reboot. "Grey" ICE damages your Deck's cyber-HP, but if they go to zero - your Deck burns (needs extensive repairs). "Black" ICE directly damages your HP, and if they go to zero, you die (or go into negative HP, depends on the system used).

6) Big mainframes have security hackers and/or AIs. These have ratings like C-Decks and have attack programs.

Quote from: golan2072;7715291) Anything which could be wired and which is expected to be hacked (e.g. security cameras, locks, cyberarms, most small arms, corporate mainframes etc) probably lacks wi-fi connectivity, as this would be too easy a target for hackers otherwise.

It's a good rule of thumb. It's another reason the hacker has to show up with his C-deck to the scene of the crime, instead of sitting at home or in the tank parked outside.

Quote from: golan2072;771529You can either have user-level access (successful roll or a "T" result) or admin-level access (a "D" result). Once you hacked the system, the ICE gets to roll a detection roll against your deck's Stealth rating (which works just as an attack roll vs. AC). If it succeeds, you'll have to fight it (using cyber-AC and cyber-attack bonus). If it fails, you are undetected.

Excellent ideas!

Quote from: golan2072;7715293) Thus C-Decks have six ratings: Deck level (i.e. "Cleric" level; you can't effectively use a Deck level higher (or much higher?) than your hacker's class level, though), Stealth ("AC" vs. Detection), Detection ("to-hit vs. Stealth), Cyber-HP, Cyber-AC and Cyber-attack. Your Deck also has a "weapon" - Pulsar program which damages ICE or serves against a security decker, or the highly-illegal Hammer program, which is essentially "Black" ICE vs. security hackers.

I was working on this recently and I've been looking at how to use spell-like combat for the decks, but your idea of programs as weapons (digital swords) might be the better way. Or I may look to combine the idea of having specialized "spell" programs and the digital sword.

Quote from: Spinachcat;772501Excellent ideas!

Thanks!

Quote from: Spinachcat;772501I was working on this recently and I've been looking at how to use spell-like combat for the decks, but your idea of programs as weapons (digital swords) might be the better way. Or I may look to combine the idea of having specialized "spell" programs and the digital sword.

Thanks! You may add throwaway (or once-per-encounter) program modules to the otherwise regular "weapon" programs, but the core would be a few rolls to hack everything.