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What makes Shadowrun...Shadowrun???

Started by Spinachcat, July 03, 2014, 04:01:32 AM

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Spinachcat

I definitely want to exam the idea of throwaway program modules to enhance the hacking experience - whether its steath, attack, defense, etc.

I will have to figure out why these programs are "throwaway" and why not always available on the C-deck. My initial idea is the throwaway program launches and erases itself from the C-deck to protect the hacker's identity.

Maybe it will be a more spontaneous skill of Coding where the hacker can code on the fly creating various specialist programs tailored to the system and situation they are currently hacking.

Ladybird

Quote from: Spinachcat;773638I will have to figure out why these programs are "throwaway" and why not always available on the C-deck. My initial idea is the throwaway program launches and erases itself from the C-deck to protect the hacker's identity.

Networked, learning ICE, like the next evolution of our antivirus software.

The megacorps subscribe to it because this way, they get to protect against the ICE that attacks them, and the ICE that's used against the other megas.

For fun, maybe make the "does the ICE build immunity to the exploit used for this attack" decision random rather than automatic, and don't tell the players.

Alternatively, the hacks may be one-and-done in order to not bring too much attention to the exploit used, like how secretive the jailbreaking community is about their exploits these days, and how they don't risk burning more exploits than they need to. Once they used something, Apple know about it, and it gets patched in the next release.
one two FUCK YOU

Spinachcat

Quote from: Ladybird;773641The megacorps subscribe to it because this way, they get to protect against the ICE that attacks them, and the ICE that's used against the other megas.

This makes sense and its logical, but I wonder if this is too much cooperation in a corporate dystopia. Like rival kingdoms in D&D, the PCs need to be able to exploit the rivalries because there's nowhere to hide if the corps become a monolithic entity.

But ICE has to be able to learn...or does it? Hmm...

I've read some articles over the years about the Computer Age hitting a processing wall at some point that will require a tech leap. In the time before the tech leap, the processing wall will create a max limit of what can be done by computers.

I am thinking that Tech Wall could be part of the dystopian stagnation. AKA, that's why branding and fashion and useless bits are the rave because the actual tech isn't getting any better. Until the tech leap happens, the corps can only sell bells & whistles.

Think about swords. We can't really make a blade much better than a 17th century katana. The light saber or the monofilament blade will be way better, but that's a tech leap beyond us.

Am I making any sense?


Quote from: Ladybird;773641For fun, maybe make the "does the ICE build immunity to the exploit used for this attack" decision random rather than automatic, and don't tell the players.

Hell yeah!

One of the things I am working on is pre-mission scouting. If your team doesn't find out that last month the corp had another team try to go for the same data with the same method, then they are going to be really surprised when they find a very hardened security.

I am a big believer in Corporate Laziness vs. Corporate Panic. Companies that haven't been hit for a while get cheap with security because that's money that isn't going to profits. However, corporations panic easily and a rash of attacks on sister corporations can set off a spending spree on both electronic and physical security.

AKA, nobody can be on war footing 24/7. They may give that appearance, but it ain't really happening. And unlike nations, the corps are at the mercy of shareholders who demand profits and execs who don't deliver profits get fired...and thus shortcuts are taken.  

Somehow, this will be expressed in GM mechanics. Easy, fun, non-invasive and optional to help the GM add another element to their design.

Spinachcat

GUNS...let's talk about the bang bang!

I am NOT ever going to compete with the sheer volume of weaponry in games like Shadowrun and Rifts. It's mindboggling and TO ME, I don't see enough variation in the various weapons to justify the pages.

That's said, I want some ways to differentiate the weaponry more than just damage and I want a good healthy selection.

One of the ideas I have been playing with is STYLE as a stat of some sort, based on wearing/holding/carrying branded items. In a corporate dominated dystopia where people are essentially powerless to vote for anything of real value, they glom onto brands for identity. I will discuss this more in a later post, but essentially using the guns of the Top Brand will increase your style, even if those aren't the best guns on the market. And for stuff like intimidation and "reaction rolls", its style over substance in this world.

So here's my initial thoughts on how guns are rated...

Accuracy (rated by short/medium/long/extreme range?)
Ammo (capacity of magazine, working on how I want to do this)
Availability (how hard to find on the street)
Cost (I am unsure how I want to do money vs. resources)
Damage (everyone's favorite)
Penetration (how nasty vs. armor)
Rate of Fire (burst, full auto, etc)
Recoil (how much the mule kicks, makes STR stat useful in a gun game)
Reload (how fast you can reload, unsure if this will work)
Style (explained above)
Weight (is it heavy? is it light so you can hold 2? bulky?)

Am I missing something?

golan2072

What basic rule system will you be using for this? S&W Core? S&W Whitebox? BFRPG? Or something closer to Shadowrun? In a D&D-type ruleset, Style could simply be a bonus (or penalty!) to Reaction rolls.
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Koren n'Rhys

Hmm. I have to agree that in typical CP games there are WAY too many choices with little variation. I want to narrow it down to a handful of categories and have a few options within each. The variation will be based on quality mostly. Better quality means more accurate,  which gives a longer range rather than a to-hit bonus, poor quality has a chance to jam or fail maybe.

Penetration will be by ammo type, not the gun. Recoil? Might be too fussy for me. Probably a flat rule rather than gun-specific if I use it at all.

Overall, very simplified, more along the lines of Mutant Future than SR or CP2020.

The Style stat is interesting, and I hadn't considered that. My thought was more of a Reputation stat, like Honor worked from the old AD&D Oriental Adventures, but even that seems too fiddly. I do like the idea of Style giving a reaction bonus though.

Ladybird

Quote from: Spinachcat;779091One of the ideas I have been playing with is STYLE as a stat of some sort, based on wearing/holding/carrying branded items. In a corporate dominated dystopia where people are essentially powerless to vote for anything of real value, they glom onto brands for identity.

...and maybe, once you get renowned enough, sponsorships?

(The analogy here would be to something like extreme sports people IRL; even though many things aren't entirely legal, there are still equipment companies willing to get their names on people's gear. The runner community will be outed to the public sooner or later; even before then, poorer runners might still be happy to accept gear as payment, or manufacturers may be happy to pay for advertising directly into the community or to their targets - CCTV is still TV! It isn't even much of a risk to put your brand name on gear, when it's an open secret amongst the corps that everyone sends runners against everyone else.)

It would be cool to add branding on to guns, so each of the main manufacturers works slightly differently. Perhaps some kind of pretty simple system, where a user can buy a generic gun, or pay more for a Brand Name which comes with a bonus.
one two FUCK YOU

Silverlion

Funny enough Spinachcat, I was thinking of doing a somewhat sightlier crunchy fate-ish Shadowrun thing, where you aspected your "special" gear.

So you didn't just have a Deck, but a "Kawasbushi Custom Layout Cyberline Optic System 4000 with platinum connections for near instant response."
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Spinachcat

Quote from: golan2072;779136What basic rule system will you be using for this? S&W Core? S&W Whitebox? BFRPG? Or something closer to Shadowrun? In a D&D-type ruleset, Style could simply be a bonus (or penalty!) to Reaction rolls.

The core system concept is Old School D&D. I don't narrow to edition as inspiration because I am thief. When I run 0e, I'm lying. What I run as OD&D is that week's vision based on how I'm feeling about my 35 years of everything from 0e, 1e, 2e, Palladium Fantasy, Runequest, C&C, S&W, and whatever I've been inspired by blogs.

In general, anyone who's played any Old School D&D will grok the system I've been planning for the Shadow-whatever really quickly. Also, anyone new to just 5e or PF would also go, hey this is cool and easy.

But FOR ME it is vital that systems and setting mesh. I have a vision for how I want this game to play. I want to take those moments from my Shadowrun games when the SR system didn't get in the way and make that the norm of gameplay. But I also don't want superlight. I want sub-systems that add fun and enhance the core concepts of the setting.

Style will be a modifier to Reaction rolls, but I may have more plans for it too. I gotta run my ideas through some playtests.


Quote from: Koren n'Rhys;779156Better quality means more accurate,  which gives a longer range rather than a to-hit bonus, poor quality has a chance to jam or fail maybe.

I love gun jams (because of movies), but I've been chewed out by gun owners who point out how rare a jam is with modern weapons, even those that are not properly maintained. There's some video of an old crapass AK-47 buried in the sand that doesn't jam when fired. It made me sad.

So for future weapons, jam has to be even rarer. I'm gonna include that as fumble option with the caveat that it should be saved for low quality weapons in bad shape. AKA, you've been hit with a fireball.

Here's my issue with "quality" - the CP world is a corporate dystopia, where profit is god in a world of style over substance. I also don't want 100s of guns, but I do want company flavor to come through their wares.


Quote from: Koren n'Rhys;779156Penetration will be by ammo type, not the gun.

Good point! Thank you.


Quote from: Koren n'Rhys;779156Recoil? Might be too fussy for me. Probably a flat rule rather than gun-specific if I use it at all.

Here's my initial thoughts on Recoil. Each weapon has a Recoil stat (0,1,2,3) and if your STR modifier is lower than the Recoil, you have a problem, taking a -1 modifier to hit per bonus you are missing. So if you have STR -1, then you would suffer a -3 to hit with a Recoil 2 weapon.


Quote from: Koren n'Rhys;779156My thought was more of a Reputation stat, like Honor worked from the old AD&D Oriental Adventures, but even that seems too fiddly.

I love OA's Reputation/Honor idea and I plan to use a version of it.


Quote from: Ladybird;779171...and maybe, once you get renowned enough, sponsorships?

AWESOME!!!

Quote from: Ladybird;779171CCTV is still TV!

That is a TERRIFYING and great idea.

I may even include an X-Games style aspect to the setting where runners can even compete "legit" [or maybe not] where video'ing the run is part of the gig.


Quote from: Silverlion;779222Funny enough Spinachcat, I was thinking of doing a somewhat sightlier crunchy fate-ish Shadowrun thing, where you aspected your "special" gear.

It bothers me that you and I have several times been playing around with similar ideas because you actually have a track record of getting off your ass and finishing stuff!!!

An old friend of mine love HeroQuest because he could attribute items, taking a basic sword and declaring it "edge shines in the sun", "held by my father as he lay dying", etc even beyond the combat-ish stuff like "drinks blood of orcs", "curved to slice muscle", etc.

Certainly, you can Aspect gear like crazy in FATE. I've often wished I could enjoy FATE because I respect its mechanics, but damn that system and I don't mix.

golan2072

My thoughts in Style - you have a Style score, going from -3 to +3, and when rolling for reaction (except for Intimidation), you add the lower of either your Style score or your Charisma modifier. Being charismatic means little in this trendy world without having a cool style, and being stylish means little without knowing how to walk the walk and talk the talk. So a character with a CHA modifier of +0 would usually invest in stuff (clothes, guns, smartphone, car) giving him 3 Style points, while a CHA MOD +3 Fixer will invest in six points of Style.

As for guns, I'd take the Stars Without Number approach - in the equipment list you put generic firearms (Pistol, Heavy Pistol, Shotgun, Machine Pistol, Submachinegun, Assault Rifle, etc), but after that give a list of manufacturers or brands, each with its own attributes, e.g. "SovArms Inc. make inaccurate firearms (-2 to-hit), which are, nonetheless, of legendary durability (never fail due to adverse conditions of even fireballs)" or "Ishimaki Ltd. produces mechanically unremarkable guns which look highly futuristic and which are the current fashion among gunslingers, +2 to Style".
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Spinachcat

Quote from: golan2072;779494My thoughts in Style - you have a Style score, going from -3 to +3, and when rolling for reaction (except for Intimidation), you add the lower of either your Style score or your Charisma modifier.

I like this idea. Though I wonder if it should be add the higher of Style or Charisma, instead of lower? It's clean and easy. I need to see it in playtest, as I want to promote the "style over substance" feel, but I also don't want to diminish the CHA stat.

Quote from: golan2072;779494, but after that give a list of manufacturers or brands, each with its own attributes,

Definitely. I want to create a system for GM's to create their own companies and use my concept of interconnected companies in various industries, OR just use the default "canon" companies I create. The various products will have some level of differentiation for their gear / products.

Spinachcat

I have been re-reading my old Shadowrun books and reading the new edition of Shadowrun...wow, I really need to write my game. I can't grok where SR has gone mechanically.

My next step of research is going back to 80s Cyberpunk literature. I want to datamine bits that SR did not utilize and see if there is something cool I should include. Any lesser known stories, articles or novels that I should consult?

Anyone have a favorite Cyberpunk comic? Either old or modern? I'd like to see where artists and comic authors took the cyberpunk ideas.

Mark Plemmons

Quote from: Spinachcat;779091So here's my initial thoughts on how guns are rated...

Accuracy (rated by short/medium/long/extreme range?)
Ammo (capacity of magazine, working on how I want to do this)
Availability (how hard to find on the street)
Cost (I am unsure how I want to do money vs. resources)
Damage (everyone's favorite)
Penetration (how nasty vs. armor)
Rate of Fire (burst, full auto, etc)
Recoil (how much the mule kicks, makes STR stat useful in a gun game)
Reload (how fast you can reload, unsure if this will work)
Style (explained above)
Weight (is it heavy? is it light so you can hold 2? bulky?)

Am I missing something?

I'm not an expert by any means, but I've been doing a bit of firearms research for a supplement I'm working on, and I think recoil and weight often go together.

From http://www.chuckhawks.com/recoil_table.htm :

"Do not forget that rifle weight is a crucial factor in the recoil equation, inversely proportional to recoil. Increase the gun weight by, say, 25% and the recoil goes down by 25%. In the real world, firearms chambered for less powerful cartridges are typically built lighter than firearms chambered for more powerful cartridges. Violate this principle by, for example, chambering a lightweight, short action rifle for a powerful Magnum cartridge like the .300 WSM and the result will be a dramatic increase in kick. Just because it can be done does not mean it makes sense, despite what you might read in advertising copy."

Just something I think is interesting, that you might want to consider.
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Spinachcat

Thanks for the article!

I have been thinking about something else....Hard Currency.

I had this idea that in a world where hackers are chopping into corporations all the damn time and governments are secondary to corporations, it might make sense that digital currency could not be trusted.

AKA, bitcoins and numbers in bank accounts could be too easily manipulated by anyone who could hack or afford some hackers.

In such a world, there might be a de-evolution of currency back to gold. Even government paper money might be bullshit, leaving the only tried and true trusted currency would be the gold standard.  

It would also add a wild west / noir aspect to the game because instead of regularly stealing data, some runs would be about stealing the physical gold, leading to adventures about defending/breaking vaults and armored cars.

James Gillen

Quote from: Spinachcat;797383Thanks for the article!

I have been thinking about something else....Hard Currency.

I had this idea that in a world where hackers are chopping into corporations all the damn time and governments are secondary to corporations, it might make sense that digital currency could not be trusted.

AKA, bitcoins and numbers in bank accounts could be too easily manipulated by anyone who could hack or afford some hackers.

In such a world, there might be a de-evolution of currency back to gold. Even government paper money might be bullshit, leaving the only tried and true trusted currency would be the gold standard.  

It would also add a wild west / noir aspect to the game because instead of regularly stealing data, some runs would be about stealing the physical gold, leading to adventures about defending/breaking vaults and armored cars.

Bitcoins, like many other turn-of-the-century innovations, were something that this "future" didn't predict.  5th Edition did, however, decide that some people are going back into credsticks as the closest thing to tender in the data-currency economy.

JG
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