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Other Games, Development, & Campaigns => Design, Development, and Gameplay => Topic started by: Spinachcat on July 03, 2014, 04:01:32 AM

Title: What makes Shadowrun...Shadowrun???
Post by: Spinachcat on July 03, 2014, 04:01:32 AM
I have been farting around with a OD&D/OSR version of Shadowrun for many years, but its never gelled enough for me. It's gone through iterations, but I've never been happy with my results. After seeing RPGPundit's thread (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=29933) about OSRing Non-Old School games, I got interested in farting around some more with my original design.

My concern is preserving the FEEL of Shadowrun. My game will have none of Shadowrun's IP or its mechanics, but I want THAT feel of Shadowrun in actual play when the game is rocking.

FOR YOU, what elements or aspects or whatever makes Shadowrun feel like the unique thing that it is???

FOR YOU, what MUST be in a Shadowrun-OSR clone-ish-thingie for you to say "hell yeah, that feels like Shadowrun!"???

Also, any other advice for the project is appreciated!
Title: What makes Shadowrun...Shadowrun???
Post by: JeremyR on July 03, 2014, 06:51:15 AM
Elves/Trolls, magic, cybertech, gangs, 90s hair metal bands, no cell phones.


You might look at the Shadowrun Returns video game. It's arguably closer to D&D than Shadowrun, at least the combat.
Title: What makes Shadowrun...Shadowrun???
Post by: Mr. Kent on July 03, 2014, 10:34:02 AM
1. All of what Jeemy said.
2. In my experience, expecting to be screwed over by your employer.
3. Being delightfully surprised when you're not.
Title: What makes Shadowrun...Shadowrun???
Post by: Artifacts of Amber on July 03, 2014, 12:12:19 PM
I like the urban magic aspect of it. I already loved cyberpunk genre and sort of hate everyone overly updating it. I would prefer a shadow run set in the year of the original game and just update the advances in Tech to reflect the real world somewhat. I wouldn't want twilight 2000 to become twilight 2020. I like an alternate history sort of thing keeping it true.

I have read most all the books. and don't mind that having meta plot. Tend to avoid those in my games.


Cyberdecking along side Mana balls and Dragons. What's not to get :)
Title: What makes Shadowrun...Shadowrun???
Post by: Spinachcat on July 05, 2014, 12:05:05 AM
Quote from: JeremyR;763718Elves/Trolls, magic, cybertech, gangs, 90s hair metal bands, no cell phones.

You bring up a good point about the no cell phones.

The original Shadowrun's built on a vision of the future that's outdated today. How much of the future should look like the future as envisioned in the late 80s or early 90s?


Quote from: JeremyR;763718You might look at the Shadowrun Returns video game. It's arguably closer to D&D than Shadowrun, at least the combat.

I definitely will!


Quote from: Mr. Kent;7637641. All of what Jeemy said.
2. In my experience, expecting to be screwed over by your employer.
3. Being delightfully surprised when you're not.

What is a good betrayal rate?

The doublecross is a staple of crime fiction, but should it happen 50% of the time? More? Less?


Quote from: Artifacts of Amber;763800I like the urban magic aspect of it.

Explain that. How is urban magic different in your view than magic found in fantasy games?

One of the areas I have been working on is a focus on urban spirit magic / street shamanism.


Quote from: Artifacts of Amber;763800I already loved cyberpunk genre and sort of hate everyone overly updating it.

What's the key aspects of the cyberpunk genre that MUST be present in a game for you?

What part of the genre do you feel has been overly updated?


Quote from: Artifacts of Amber;763800I would prefer a shadow run set in the year of the original game and just update the advances in Tech to reflect the real world somewhat.

I liked SR 4e in 2070, but I agree that 2050 is a great setting and in many ways, the most game-able.

What did you like most about the original setting that you found lacking in later editions?
Title: What makes Shadowrun...Shadowrun???
Post by: Ladybird on July 05, 2014, 07:38:16 AM
Quote from: Spinachcat;764700What is a good betrayal rate?

Low. Really, really low. Like, 5% or less at the game table, and I'd estimate the actual in-world percentage would be even lower (Incidental admin delays, probably higher).

The higher it is, the more mundane and less shocking it becomes for the players, and also, the less likely it is that Shadowrunning will have built up to become a viable career choice; yes, a lot of Runners are desperate people, but if every run ended with a screwjob then people wouldn't do it.

Everyone talks about it though, because there's no story in "so we pinched their AI core, and then got paid the exact amount as in our contract, and then we went for pizza".

QuoteWhat's the key aspects of the cyberpunk genre that MUST be present in a game for you?

I want more wierd cosmetic implants, like the gang with shark teeth from Neuromancer; useless, but cool. Or just any of the wierd shit from Fairyland,  really. Chrome, chrome, chrome. There's not enough reason in Shadowrun to just buy that sort of useless stuff, when you need ammo, foci, guns, implants, rent... (So that's your "XP for carousing!" equivalent...).

I also like things being updated, though - I don't want to be playing a professional character in a vaguely sci-fi setting who has less tech than me, so I want my character to have a smartphone, for example.
Title: What makes Shadowrun...Shadowrun???
Post by: danbuter on July 05, 2014, 03:29:40 PM
Everyone has hit the high points for me. Basically, it's the setting that does it. It's a fantastic hodgepodge of cyber and fantasy. Magic and guns and metahumans, all on the outside of the law. A dystopian world where the big corporations rule everything. And dragons.

The rules are decent, though they could be improved, as they tend to be a bit heavier than necessary. For example, a D6 version of Shadowrun would be an instant buy for me.
Title: What makes Shadowrun...Shadowrun???
Post by: Brander on July 05, 2014, 05:22:09 PM
Fantasy people and critters during a magical re-awakening set in a high-tech, at least somewhat dystopian, setting.

Really, that's all.  Details are wide open, but those broad strokes are Shadowrun to me.

It was never finished but I was working on a campaign where it would be Shadowrun, except that all the fantasy bits would come from Warcraft.  Couldn't sell my then players on the idea though.
Title: What makes Shadowrun...Shadowrun???
Post by: Spinachcat on July 06, 2014, 01:27:47 AM
Quote from: danbuter;764897Basically, it's the setting that does it. It's a fantastic hodgepodge of cyber and fantasy.

And that's what I'm worried about. I am concerned at any OSR clone-ish-thingie of Shadowrun is stillborn because like RIFTS, the success of Shadowrun is a based on how the various bits of the IP mesh together, not on the bits themselves.

AKA, its not the pieces of in the hodgepodge, but Shadowrun's specific combo of those bits. But maybe not. Maybe a game with the same bits and same themes has an audience, even if combo'd differently. We will see.

Quote from: danbuter;764897The rules are decent, though they could be improved, as they tend to be a bit heavier than necessary. For example, a D6 version of Shadowrun would be an instant buy for me.

The rules are the problem for me. They've always been okay, but added a level of complication to gameplay that only increased die clatter and time to figure out who did what.

I'm surprised somebody hasn't made a D6 Fantasy Cyberpunk yet.

Dan, start a thread pimping Bushi D6. That was a fun read.
Title: What makes Shadowrun...Shadowrun???
Post by: Marleycat on July 06, 2014, 01:31:04 AM
Urban Shamanism and the Matrix meshed together.:)

"Fuck you tech bastards my technology spirit says differently so start dealing with it before I get really serious".
Title: What makes Shadowrun...Shadowrun???
Post by: Spinachcat on July 06, 2014, 02:52:50 AM
Quote from: Ladybird;764777I want more wierd cosmetic implants, like the gang with shark teeth from Neuromancer; useless, but cool.

Definitely!

Since fast healing is basic in most RPGs, I wanted to weave that into the world so in addition to fast regen, there would be lots of easy access to body modification tech as a fashion statement. AKA, Paris says a 3rd ear is all the rage this spring.


Quote from: Ladybird;764777There's not enough reason in Shadowrun to just buy that sort of useless stuff, when you need ammo, foci, guns, implants, rent... (So that's your "XP for carousing!" equivalent...)

True. I definitely want to develop different reasons beyond combat needs to spend money.


Quote from: Ladybird;764777I also like things being updated, though - I don't want to be playing a professional character in a vaguely sci-fi setting who has less tech than me, so I want my character to have a smartphone, for example.

I agree, but I plan to mess around with tech. AKA, what if all the conspiracy theories about ISPs/cable companies were real and the 2014 iPhone allowed cheap freedom unheard of in the corporate future?
Title: What makes Shadowrun...Shadowrun???
Post by: James Gillen on July 06, 2014, 03:57:43 AM
I loved the fact that 5th Edition has Qi Tattoos for adepts.  Because it just isn't Shadowrun without tattoos and piercings.  :D

JG
Title: What makes Shadowrun...Shadowrun???
Post by: Artifacts of Amber on July 09, 2014, 06:23:03 PM
Sorry took me a while not use to people wanting my Opinion :)


S-Cat

Explain that. How is urban magic different in your view than magic found in fantasy games?

One of the areas I have been working on is a focus on urban spirit magic / street shamanism.


I see Urban magic as , well . . Less magical. Approached from a more scientific point of view I guess. Magic that is integrated with technology and assumed a part of it. Like how mages are also wage slaves for the corps, doing security etc. Not as much mystery and hocus pocus I think.

I love spirit magic as a concept anyways. Gives a lot of Roleplaying chances for the GM and Player.



What's the key aspects of the cyberpunk genre that MUST be present in a game for you?

What part of the genre do you feel has been overly updated?


Well Cyberspace is pretty much a must for an RPG game. In my literature it is not an absolute. Dystopic Environments with a glimmer of hope. A sort of lax morality brought on by environment. I still want the characters to be heroes but not good guys.

As far as the genre game wise I want them to update the technology to closer match ours but don't fast forward the world time line. If its started out as 2050 why make it 2070 just to include blue tooth. I prefer at some point an alternate time line and update the technology not advance the game worlds time line.



I liked SR 4e in 2070, but I agree that 2050 is a great setting and in many ways, the most game-able.

What did you like most about the original setting that you found lacking in later editions?


Mainly the advancement of time line. Altering the world when it was already interesting and playable is a waste to me. I don't want to have to learn new stuff. I barely function with the original story. I like the books being consistent and adopting a timeline but don't need it for my game. I like working from a set of basics and not over doing details by adding new story. I could run shadow run from the basic 1st edition story for 10 years and not need new stuff especially if any new stuff (Advanced timeline) screws with what I have done in the game. I feel this way about all games/campaigns. If I ran Forgotten realms it would be from the first world books and nothing else. Same for a lot of RPgs.

Later
Title: What makes Shadowrun...Shadowrun???
Post by: golan2072 on July 11, 2014, 10:41:55 AM
IMHO, Shadowrun is most enjoyable when being played as an over-the-top, quite gonzo, 1980's-action-movie game with fantasy and cyberpunk elements thrown in for a good measure.

My points about that:

1) Coolness tramps EVERYTHING. If you have to choose between a cool but unrealistic element and a mundane but realistic element, choose the cool element every time.

2) This is a future as imagined in 1989 but with strong fantasy elements. Resist the urge to add smartphones, wi-fi or nanotech, or even a realistic internet. SR4 added many of these elements and thus lost much of the original flavour of the setting. Keyboard-sized cyberdecks with physical wire connections, obviously mechanical chrome cyberlimbs and ATM-sized street vid-phone/computer terminals are the way to go.

3) Aesthetic is 1980's aesthetic, dialed up to 11. Think pink Mohawks, outrageous 1980's fashion, corporate suits with outlandishly big shoulder pads, enormous amount of punk-style piercing, biker garb, cars and bikes looking like sci-fi ones as imagined in the 1980's.

4) The future history is as imagined in 1989, with strong fantasy elements. Resist the urge to include things too much like the War on Terror or make China a superpower. Japan is the big tech-superpower, and Japanese corps are powerful and numerous; the Soviet Union is probably around, though very stagnated and utterly corrupt, and not in control of Eastern Europe; nation-states fragment and cities gain independence; EVERYTHING gets privatized, including the police; the government doesn't really control the vast slums (gangs rule them instead), which are almost post-apocalyptic in nature, and many people there live off the grid.

5) Magic brings with it world-threatening conspiratorial threats, e.g. immortal elves, Aztaln blood magic, Earthdawn's Horrors and Bug Spirits.

To get into the right mood for retro-SR, go watch 1980's action movies, especially ones with sci-fi/cyberpunk elements (e.g. Bladerunner, Robocop, Terminator, Escape from NY, Akira, Aliens, Mad Max 2: Road Warrior) and play early 1990's cyberpunk computer games such as System Shock, Crusader: No Remorse, Quarantine and the SNES and Genesis versions of Shadowrun.
Title: What makes Shadowrun...Shadowrun???
Post by: Mark Plemmons on July 11, 2014, 12:07:18 PM
Quote from: Spinachcat;764700Explain that. How is urban magic different in your view than magic found in fantasy games?

For me, it's digital tablets instead of spellbooks, wards that are spray painted instead of chalked, etc.

Also tweaking the way that traditional spells look and/or feel - like illusions becoming holograms, or detection spells showing waypoints like on your Google Maps. Then also adding spells that focus on technomancy, like a cantrip or other low-level spell to charge your phone. That kind of things.

Hell, see the Corporia link in my sig. :)
Title: What makes Shadowrun...Shadowrun???
Post by: James Gillen on July 12, 2014, 03:28:43 AM
Quote from: golan2072;767649IMHO, Shadowrun is most enjoyable when being played as an over-the-top, quite gonzo, 1980's-action-movie game with fantasy and cyberpunk elements thrown in for a good measure.

My points about that:

1) Coolness tramps EVERYTHING. If you have to choose between a cool but unrealistic element and a mundane but realistic element, choose the cool element every time.

2) This is a future as imagined in 1989 but with strong fantasy elements. Resist the urge to add smartphones, wi-fi or nanotech, or even a realistic internet. SR4 added many of these elements and thus lost much of the original flavour of the setting. Keyboard-sized cyberdecks with physical wire connections, obviously mechanical chrome cyberlimbs and ATM-sized street vid-phone/computer terminals are the way to go.

Cyberarm Panther Assault Cannon.  Got it.

JG
Title: What makes Shadowrun...Shadowrun???
Post by: golan2072 on July 12, 2014, 04:03:27 AM
Quote from: James Gillen;768029Cyberarm Panther Assault Cannon.  Got it.

JG
Cyberarm Ares Predator, to be more accurate :)
Title: What makes Shadowrun...Shadowrun???
Post by: Spinachcat on July 12, 2014, 05:16:52 AM
Quote from: Artifacts of Amber;766869I see Urban magic as , well . . Less magical. Approached from a more scientific point of view I guess. Magic that is integrated with technology and assumed a part of it. Like how mages are also wage slaves for the corps, doing security etc. Not as much mystery and hocus pocus I think.

There was an interesting comic book series called The Red Star (even had a D20 game) where the Russians had magic but it was called protocols which were very technical / scientific in scope, not hocus pocus.
http://theredstar.com/

I am thinking about Corporate Technomancy vs. Wild Magic - aka, there are some spells you can buy over the counter like a Coke, using an trademarked formula, but then there is also the rough, raw street bred stuff.


Quote from: Artifacts of Amber;766869I still want the characters to be heroes but not good guys.

I am approaching this in the GM section and for players through Motivations (aka, almost an alignment like system) where you can absolutely run a campaign of Robin Hood-style activists or even gun-toting social justice warriors. Or the can be in it for the money or other motivation.

I am currently working on a Goblin race-as-class who are in it for the Lulz, but even they are laughing past the graveyard.

I am working on ideas of how you could run troop-style play with each player having several PCs and maybe some PCs just down hang with others or don't go missions that don't support their motivation or beliefs.


Quote from: golan2072;7676491) Coolness tramps EVERYTHING. If you have to choose between a cool but unrealistic element and a mundane but realistic element, choose the cool element every time.

Agreed. Elements have to be engaging and fun. The wow factor is key.


Quote from: golan2072;767649Resist the urge to add smartphones, wi-fi or nanotech, or even a realistic internet. SR4 added many of these elements and thus lost much of the original flavour of the setting.

I don't know how I could pull that off today. Smartphones are so ubiquitous and the internet so ingrained in our culture. It's hard to imagine life without them in 50 years.

But SR4 didn't have the pizzazz of SR1. And I liked SR4.

I am thinking that my retro-whatever timeline can't be too far off. I am thinking my game needs to be around 2029. But I have some ideas to make severe changes to today's tech - aka corporate and governmental control makes tech more limited - aka, imagine the net neutrality debacle taken to its worst conclusions.


Quote from: golan2072;767649Keyboard-sized cyberdecks with physical wire connections, obviously mechanical chrome cyberlimbs and ATM-sized street vid-phone/computer terminals are the way to go.

Yes!

But I am trying to define reasons for their existence.


Quote from: golan2072;7676494) The future history is as imagined in 1989, with strong fantasy elements. Resist the urge to include things too much like the War on Terror or make China a superpower. Japan is the big tech-superpower, and Japanese corps are powerful and numerous; the Soviet Union is probably around, though very stagnated and utterly corrupt, and not in control of Eastern Europe; nation-states fragment and cities gain independence;

I am concerned about stepping on the SR IP. I don't know if yet another "Japan as superpower" setting works in today's market. It's been done repeatedly, but I know its a staple in the genre. Because katanas.

I will skip the WOT as its a pretty dead issue today. The whole middle east in RPGs feels like misery tourism.

I wonder if the BRIC - Brazil, Russia, India, China - would work instead of Japan. In the 80s, Japan seemed so exotic in the USA. Today, its a hard sell with sushi restaurants in every city.


Quote from: golan2072;767649EVERYTHING gets privatized, including the police; the government doesn't really control the vast slums (gangs rule them instead), which are almost post-apocalyptic in nature, and many people there live off the grid.

My idea is that the governments in my setting exist by controlling the military and the infrastructure between the cities, but they're more bureaucracies than real governments, but exist by pitting the corps against one another.

Also, lots of proxy wars.

Quote from: golan2072;767649To get into the right mood for retro-SR, go watch 1980's action movies, especially ones with sci-fi/cyberpunk elements (e.g. Bladerunner, Robocop, Terminator, Escape from NY, Akira, Aliens, Mad Max 2: Road Warrior)

Done! I've also got Nemesis, Strange Days, Johnny Mnemonic, Gunhed and the original Judge Dredd on my radar for re-viewing.


Quote from: golan2072;767649and play early 1990's cyberpunk computer games such as System Shock, Crusader: No Remorse, Quarantine and the SNES and Genesis versions of Shadowrun.

Good idea!


Quote from: Mark Plemmons;767684For me, it's digital tablets instead of spellbooks, wards that are spray painted instead of chalked, etc.

Absolutely! Magic cast when you pick up your reagents in Walmart, not ye olde apothecary.


Quote from: Mark Plemmons;767684Then also adding spells that focus on technomancy, like a cantrip or other low-level spell to charge your phone.

Technomancy is important, but I want to preserve the importance of the hacker/rigger/fixer tech-dude and not allow the mage to just cast their way through issues. It's a balancing act I need to explore more.
Title: What makes Shadowrun...Shadowrun???
Post by: golan2072 on July 12, 2014, 07:38:50 AM
Quote from: Spinachcat;768036I don't know how I could pull that off today. Smartphones are so ubiquitous and the internet so ingrained in our culture. It's hard to imagine life without them in 50 years.
Just watch out for the flavour. SR4 had overdone smartphones ("vommlinks") and wi-fi, and EVERYTHING was easily hackable with no clear guidelines for this total hackability - turned SR into something like that recent Watchdogs computer game where you can hack everything.

Smartphones are OK, but you should be very careful with ubiquitous wi-fi and ubiquitous hackability. Maybe just say that people who have important information keep it off the grid in offline servers for safety, so you need an actual hardware link to access it.

Quote from: Spinachcat;768036I am thinking that my retro-whatever timeline can't be too far off. I am thinking my game needs to be around 2029. But I have some ideas to make severe changes to today's tech - aka corporate and governmental control makes tech more limited - aka, imagine the net neutrality debacle taken to its worst conclusions.
Yep. Also possibly a public response to the mass surveillance potential of tech by a culture of keeping less stuff online and turning off wi-fi access in many cases.


Quote from: Spinachcat;768036I am concerned about stepping on the SR IP. I don't know if yet another "Japan as superpower" setting works in today's market. It's been done repeatedly, but I know its a staple in the genre. Because katanas.
Not because of Katanas, but because of Sony/Panasonic/any other high-tech Japanacorp which was the cutting edge in the 1980's. Japanese high-tech and Zaibatsu corporate culture are major cyberpunk tropes.

Quote from: Spinachcat;768036I wonder if the BRIC - Brazil, Russia, India, China - would work instead of Japan. In the 80s, Japan seemed so exotic in the USA. Today, its a hard sell with sushi restaurants in every city.
BRIC are a good option, IMHO, especially as cyberpunk usually follows the trope of "bankrupt/collapsed U.S.". Just extrapolate from the ascendancy of today's China and the American debt issues and you can have the PRC, or even the BRIC as a whole, as substitutes for the more traditional cyberpunk Japan. Maybe also make Korea (united under the South?) a high-tech substitute for Japan, they got the tech and the corps needed for this.
Title: What makes Shadowrun...Shadowrun???
Post by: James Gillen on July 13, 2014, 02:12:11 AM
Quote from: golan2072;768050Just watch out for the flavour. SR4 had overdone smartphones ("vommlinks") and wi-fi, and EVERYTHING was easily hackable with no clear guidelines for this total hackability - turned SR into something like that recent Watchdogs computer game where you can hack everything.

You may want to look at SR5 then.  I wouldn't say hackers are less powerful, but those powers are a little better defined and regulated.

JG
Title: What makes Shadowrun...Shadowrun???
Post by: Jame Rowe on July 13, 2014, 11:09:44 AM
Honestly, I believe that Shadowrun works better with its current system than with a d20 system. Partly because of how it adds to the flavor and partly because it allows it to be more free-form and less CR dependent.

Quote from: James Gillen;768348You may want to look at SR5 then.  I wouldn't say hackers are less powerful, but those powers are a little better defined and regulated.

JG

Which is why I would get SR5 if I had $60 to spend on it. SR4 didn't have the cyberdecks that I always felt were what really made Deckers unique.
Title: What makes Shadowrun...Shadowrun???
Post by: crkrueger on July 14, 2014, 08:47:21 AM
How much of the Shadowrun Feel can be captured without any of the Shadowrun Setting?  That's interesting, have to think on that a bit.

Spinachcat probably has First Edition right next to him, so I don't have to tell him, but this is for everyone else.

The whole "Old School Shadowrun has tech we've surpassed today" is, well, incorrect.  Shadowrun had wireless phones, the most common were like the Samsung wristphones but they had handheld models, earbud models, etc, and of course, cybernetically implanted models.  Even though you couldn't run the Matrix with them, since they lacked ASIST, those phones could be linked up via fiber to the world's fiber communication network to travel at speeds we can't match.

They also had portable computers, but those were a keyboard with a monitor that rolled out (unless you wanted to go full voice input and output, forgetting monitor) from the keyboard, the printer was basically a roll of paper in a plastic container you could attach directly to the computer.  This computer was full-powered and could handle productivity software, games, and anything you have on a desktop, stored in non-volatile optical chips.  So computer plus monitor plus printer in something the size of a mobile keyboard today.  Not too shabby considering a lot of this technology was already in place by 2029 when the Crash happened and dropped the Internet into the Stone Age.

You could also get data display systems to make 3d holograms, or project the screen onto a flat surface for interaction ala Minority Report or directly into your glasses.

The reason portable phones and computer consumer devices don't stand out in your memory is because they were so ubiquitous they were blasé.  You have a what phone or computer?  Who cares, if you can't deck you're a tortoise, you're Ma and Pa Kettle, not a fashion maven.  This whole 2070 thing of obsessing over the fashion of your commlink, that's so....trite and Jobsian. ;)

I think people need to read these old games from time to time instead of just accepting at face value the "It is known." peddled by people who didn't like those games.

Sorry for falling down the rabbit hole, Spinach, will try to really address your post later.
Title: What makes Shadowrun...Shadowrun???
Post by: crkrueger on July 14, 2014, 09:34:16 AM
One of the problems I see is the source of magic.  Shadowrun weaved cyberpunk into fantasy via the Earthdawn cosmology and the cycle of magic.  Why are magical beings from our myths reappearing?  Because this happened before, so it's a case of things returning rather then being created (of course there is plenty of evidence for alternate theories because things weren't exactly the same, but they never got to explore that fully before FASA folded.)

How the magic works, and how people respond to it, will help to give you the Shadowrun feel.  40 years after the Awakening, there is still much hostility and prejudice against the Awakened.  Corporations and governments use magic because they need to.  A lot of people are "Yeah Magic!" or "Yeah Cybertech!" but there are also a lot of people who are fine with humanity just the way it is.  

That constant societal friction of the old game was changed.  Wide-eyed acceptance of the alien is one of the transhumanist tropes introduced into 4th and one of the reasons why it seems different.  Most "Urban Fantasy" tends to be somewhat transhumanist, if you will, from a magical perspective as well.

Of course there are things like the Pr0n. GunPr0n, CarPr0n, CyberPr0n, ClothesPr0n, lists and lists of way to be cool, because when nothing really matters because there's no way to really beat the system, all that matters is what you buy.  Nightmare Pod-People consumerism at it's worst, and the counter-cultural PCs who do the same thing only differently.

None of that, however, is unique to Shadowrun, that's any Cyberpunk game.  Magic and it's expression, I'm convinced, is the key to the Shadowrun Feel.

The other major point to hit is decking.  Just like for some people Vancian casting, or hit points or armor class is "D&D", Gibsonian Cyberspace is "Shadowrun".

The thing that makes Shadowrun decking "decking" is that it isn't like our computing.  It'd not supposed to be.  Our way of computing got proven out of date and pathetically unequipped to deal with the Crash Virus.  So, we redid it all, using all optical technology with an eye towards primarily not allowing the Crash Virus to kill the world again as well as protect systems from the newest type of hacker, the Cyberlinked Decker.

The problem is, that's a very specific historical path, but the key to the feel is "this is not your or your grandchild's computer".  The nature of decking, of the consensual hallucination of the Matrix is as alien to the thought process of someone who's never experienced it, as magic is.

So make it alien.  Make it different.  It's not Linux.  Just because it looks like a keyboard doesn't mean it's a Commodore 64, that Sony consumer cyberdeck you pick up at Nibble and Bytes in 2050 could destroy the entire internet as we know it with script kiddie programs some kid in high school made.  Maybe optical chips allow us to store information as Trinary or Trinary with additional quantum states the Big Brains are always yapping about, quarks and shit.  Go wild, and if someone says "that can't happen" put an Ares Predator to their head and tell 'em to Frag Off!

Cyberware - yeah you need lots and it needs to be cool, but again it needs to be alienating in some way.  Shadowrun Cyberware has a cost, one you don't find out about usually until it's way too far to return.  A guy with maximum Delta Cyberware isn't quite Superman, but he is way faster then you, he can leap small buildings in a single bound, and he's more powerful then your average commuter car probably.  When your mage or shaman looks at him, he looks dead, he can't be magically healed, and something that drains life force, will kill him in a fraction of the time it would a normal person.

He also can't go into any place normal people hang out unless he's a corporate agent, and if he ever gets caught by police, they're gonna rip that stuff out of him and toss him in jail for the rest of his life (or do the Snake Plisskin to him and add him to the payroll).

So magic, and decking - Alien and truly unfathomable to those who can't do it.
Cyberware - More than human but less then human as well.

Players might be cool, but they are the quintessential Outsiders, even when it may look like they are living on the inside.
Title: What makes Shadowrun...Shadowrun???
Post by: crkrueger on July 14, 2014, 09:48:16 AM
It's not really pleasing to say this, but after writing the above post, another aspect of the Shadowrun Feel is, like all the games of the 90's, what people would probably call today Special Snowflakeism.

WoD, Deadlands, Shadowrun, they are filled not with classical heroes, but still people who are different than the norm.  Even your bog-standard "fighter" has become more machine then man.  You mages are just born different, and the deckers and riggers are what they are, because they experience a different reality, perhaps one they prefer to the one everyone else lives in.

So how you set the characters up, what do they do, what is their role and function in society or outside of it, will go a long way to getting that SR feel without the IP.

In the end though, you're right to a certain degree, Shadowrun is more then the sum of it's parts, and those parts include the IP, but I think you can get close.

You might want to take a look at Daddy Warpig's Shadowrun analogue, or even Trollman's for comparisons.
Title: What makes Shadowrun...Shadowrun???
Post by: golan2072 on July 14, 2014, 10:01:31 AM
Sure, SR2 (I never had SR1) had cellphones and portable computers, but they were used to make calls (cellphones) or do very rudimentary computer work. They weren't the tools of deckers, or of any serious computer user. And they weren't smartphones, just simple cellphones. Anyone making high-end use of computers used ASIST. SR4 came and gave everyone cheap, handheld smartphones ("commlinks") which could hack everything, made the C-Deck redundant and made everything accessible by wi-fi. Which kills the whole SR decking theme and turns it into Watchdogs (a recent computer game where you can hack practically everything with your smartphone).
Title: What makes Shadowrun...Shadowrun???
Post by: crkrueger on July 14, 2014, 10:02:37 AM
OH, this is totally a stylistic thing, but in-game documents.  Shadowland.
Every book other then the rulebook was formatted like some document or set of articles compiled and uploaded to the Shadowland network and commented on characters in the setting.

Un-fucking believably immersive.  If you can nail that, people will think Shadowrun no matter what the IP is.  I know 4th players who tuned out simply due to the Shadowtalk being so lame, although I luvs me some Turbo Bunny.

To go along with that, Shadowbeat. Neo-Anarchist's Guide to Real Life.  Stuff that affects runners, but also everyone else as it details the weird things about the setting.  The USA is now 7 nations, what the hell happens to the NFL?  Even if you don't list all the teams or have paragraphs explaining it, have people refer to teams not existing now, or have stuff pop up in art and ads like NERPS or what GW did with Dark Future.  There's more flavor and soul stuffed into that friggin' carwars game then half the 4th splats.

I dunno if this is something you're thinking of publishing or not.
Title: What makes Shadowrun...Shadowrun???
Post by: crkrueger on July 14, 2014, 10:15:06 AM
Quote from: golan2072;768696Sure, SR2 (I never had SR1) had cellphones and portable computers, but they were used to make calls (cellphones) or do very rudimentary computer work. They weren't the tools of deckers, or of any serious computer user. And they weren't smartphones, just simple cellphones. Anyone making high-end use of computers used ASIST. SR4 came and gave everyone cheap, handheld smartphones ("commlinks") which could hack everything, made the C-Deck redundant and made everything accessible by wi-fi. Which kills the whole SR decking theme and turns it into Watchdogs (a recent computer game where you can hack practically everything with your smartphone).

Yeah, but that's kinda the point, our phones really aren't smart, they're ridonkulously stupid compared to a real computer.  They're just "smarter" then a Ma Bell phone due to the primitive apps that run on them, all of which are useless to someone in 2050 because they don't need fake apps on their phone, or tablet that they carry around with them.  Legal Matrix access is everywhere.  It's only decking that requires ASIST, and technically it doesn't need ASIST either.

The whole commlink thing was something I thought was just not...well thought out.  Mitsuhama, which in 2050 probably has a GDP greater then any three nations in 2000,  is going to allow the Watchdogs guy to access it's systems.  Umm. No.  Somehow two global matrix security crashes and the takeover of an arcology by an AI have taught the world that we need to make our global communications network much less safe by having our entire society's infrastructure, including things that don't need them, like cybernetic systems, open to wireless communication.

Why does 4th feel different?  That's another big one right there.
Title: What makes Shadowrun...Shadowrun???
Post by: Mark Plemmons on July 14, 2014, 11:39:52 AM
Quote from: golan2072Keyboard-sized cyberdecks with physical wire connections, obviously mechanical chrome cyberlimbs and ATM-sized street vid-phone/computer terminals are the way to go.

Quote from: Spinachcat;768036Yes!

But I am trying to define reasons for their existence.

You make me think of the newer Battlestar Galactica and the last few Star Trek: Enterprise novels that focused on the Romulan War (no wait, I'm going somewhere with this).

To 'explain' why the prequel series has better special effects than the original ST series, the novels gave the Romulans the ability to electronically hijack starships. This could be avoided by sort of going backward with tech - so it's why the experimental NX has digital screens and touchpads, and the later NCC has flip switches and buttons.

You can do the same thing with magic. Maybe older tech is just more resistant to magic. For example, a magical 'atmosphere' messes with wireless signals, so you have to physically jack in.
Title: What makes Shadowrun...Shadowrun???
Post by: Mark Plemmons on July 14, 2014, 11:59:08 AM
Quote from: Spinachcat;768036Technomancy is important, but I want to preserve the importance of the hacker/rigger/fixer tech-dude and not allow the mage to just cast their way through issues. It's a balancing act I need to explore more.

Yeah, you have to set clear boundaries between what the tech PCs can do vs the magic PCs.

The way I handled it (in Corporia, though, not SR) was so Hackers can hack and deal with tech but not cast magic, and the sole technomancy 'school' mostly focuses on modifying existing tech - charging dead batteries, keeping a gun from jamming, improving weapon damage, etc.

However, due to various points of the system and setting, I didn't include an obvious rigger/fixer archetype, though the skills are there if someone wants to create one. So that'll make a big difference.
Title: What makes Shadowrun...Shadowrun???
Post by: Mark Plemmons on July 14, 2014, 12:05:59 PM
Quote from: Spinachcat;768036I am thinking about Corporate Technomancy vs. Wild Magic - aka, there are some spells you can buy over the counter like a Coke, using an trademarked formula, but then there is also the rough, raw street bred stuff.

Cool idea!
Title: What makes Shadowrun...Shadowrun???
Post by: golan2072 on July 14, 2014, 02:10:58 PM
The problem with hacking is this:

In SR2, a Decker was a highly-specialized professional with highly-specialized (and expensive) gear who would go to a secure site, hook up (physically!) with the computer system, and do amazing things, e.g. disable/re-route security cameras, steal data etc). However, the decking part of the game was separate from the normal part of the game, and split the party. And a decker can't bw with the party in battle and hack in the same time, at least not easily.

In SR4, a Hacker was less specialized and had cheaper gear, and could hack anything anywhere over wi-fi. He can get integrated into regular play and combat, though, and hacking no longer splits the party.

What you need is hacking which is the work of a highly-specialized professional with highly-specialized gear BUT who can participate in regular play activities and combat.
Title: What makes Shadowrun...Shadowrun???
Post by: James Gillen on July 14, 2014, 04:29:17 PM
Quote from: Mark Plemmons;768719You make me think of the newer Battlestar Galactica and the last few Star Trek: Enterprise novels that focused on the Romulan War (no wait, I'm going somewhere with this).

To 'explain' why the prequel series has better special effects than the original ST series, the novels gave the Romulans the ability to electronically hijack starships. This could be avoided by sort of going backward with tech - so it's why the experimental NX has digital screens and touchpads, and the later NCC has flip switches and buttons.

Of course even TOS Trek had fliptop communicators and other devices that we can at least recognize now in our technology.  On the other hand, the only reason they had transporters was because the series couldn't afford to prep the models and sets for the shuttlecraft every week...

JG
Title: What makes Shadowrun...Shadowrun???
Post by: Mark Plemmons on July 15, 2014, 12:44:33 PM
Quote from: James Gillen;768840Of course even TOS Trek had fliptop communicators and other devices that we can at least recognize now in our technology.

Yes, although that's the tail wagging the dog. The people who designed those phones were geeks who wanted a working TOS communicator...
Title: What makes Shadowrun...Shadowrun???
Post by: James Gillen on July 16, 2014, 03:00:58 AM
Quote from: Mark Plemmons;769089Yes, although that's the tail wagging the dog. The people who designed those phones were geeks who wanted a working TOS communicator...

As opposed to the cyberpunk genre where virtual reality is in some sense LESS user-friendly than what we have now. :D

JG
Title: What makes Shadowrun...Shadowrun???
Post by: Spinachcat on July 18, 2014, 04:51:07 AM
Thank you to everyone for your ideas!

Lots to think about! Keep it coming.


Quote from: golan2072;768050Just watch out for the flavour.

This is unbelievably important for me. As I want to achieve their flavor without their IP, the goal is try to create my own tasty gumbo from the original ingredients (Cyberpunk + Fantasy), but my own recipe.


Quote from: golan2072;768050Smartphones are OK, but you should be very careful with ubiquitous wi-fi and ubiquitous hackability. Maybe just say that people who have important information keep it off the grid in offline servers for safety, so you need an actual hardware link to access it.

That's my big focus for hackers - you have to Break & Enter to get the data. Nobody important puts anything valuable on the wi-fi. It's an endless cybersea of junk (which makes it great to hide some things actually).

While there are corporate hackers who sit in server farms safe from the action, that's not the role of the Hacker on a mission. The hacker's there to use his talent behind the walls where nobody is ever supposed to be and quickly hack into secured off-line systems.

I'm thinking D&D Thief - he's there to pick the unpickable locks.


Quote from: golan2072;768050Japanese high-tech and Zaibatsu corporate culture are major cyberpunk tropes.

Absolutely and this worries me.

Even if I use BRIC instead of Japan, I don't know how to sell "next gen high tech" coming from Brazil? Russia? India? China?  To most people Brazil has soccer and boobies, Russia has vodka and corruption, India has call centers and dance numbers, and China has eggrolls and giant factories making everything in Walmart. I know that sounds horrible, but Japan as high tech threat worked because most Americans knew jack shit about Japan except that their products were invading the shelves...and they had samurai and geisha girls who ate raw fish.

As for Zaibatsu culture, that's another sticky point.

I am actually looking at the Keiretsu concept as a post-Zaibatsu - I am unsure it is valuable or usable as yet. Need to do more research and thinking.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keiretsu


Quote from: golan2072;768050Maybe also make Korea (united under the South?) a high-tech substitute for Japan, they got the tech and the corps needed for this.

I'm thinking about if "united under the North" has traction. A high tech insane dictatorship?
Title: What makes Shadowrun...Shadowrun???
Post by: Spinachcat on July 18, 2014, 05:29:25 AM
Quote from: Jame Rowe;768454Honestly, I believe that Shadowrun works better with its current system than with a d20 system. Partly because of how it adds to the flavor and partly because it allows it to be more free-form and less CR dependent.

I'm aiming the crunch based on OD&D so there will be plenty of free-form and non-CR dependent play. In fact, I'm utterly unsure how I plan to help GMs determine adventures with appropriate level threats.

There is no doubt that the Shadowrun system is part of the Shadowrun flavor. My problem is that I find the mechanics getting in the way of actual play. So for years, I've dabbled with trying to marry Shadowrun with a fast and dirty OD&D-ish system.
Title: What makes Shadowrun...Shadowrun???
Post by: Koren n'Rhys on July 18, 2014, 12:38:42 PM
Hey there everyone.  I think this is virtually my first post here post on these forums despite signing up quite some time ago. I actually popped in following a link from some 5E chatter and fortuitously stumbled on this thread!

I, too , am slowly tinkering at a cyberpunk/shadowrun OSR game, based mostly on B/X (well, Lab Lord and Mutant Future makes it easier) so finding this discussion was pretty interesting. My POV is SR 2E.

I agree with a lot of what I see here regarding what you need to get that true SR feel and the IP is a HUGE part of that.  Ideally, I can come up with something fairly generic that lets you pick up a SR sourcebook or adventure and use it for the fluff. I'd rather try to keep the rules lighter at first and avoid the long lists of guns and cyber when, cool as they are, mechanically  there are only minor differences once you distill the system to a B/X rather than 3E D&D level.  

Will be following along to see what other ideas pop up, and checking out Corporia and the systems suggested by CRKrueger too.  Thanks!
Title: What makes Shadowrun...Shadowrun???
Post by: Marleycat on July 18, 2014, 12:58:53 PM
QuoteThat's my big focus for hackers - you have to Break & Enter to get the data. Nobody important puts anything valuable on the wi-fi. It's an endless cybersea of junk (which makes it great to hide some things actually).

While there are corporate hackers who sit in server farms safe from the action, that's not the role of the Hacker on a mission. The hacker's there to use his talent behind the walls where nobody is ever supposed to be and quickly hack into secured off-line systems.

I'm thinking D&D Thief - he's there to pick the unpickable locks.
Hackers should be like Hardison on Leverage yes he can do a remote hack but more likely he either breaks in or is working with a pure burglar type to get into high security areas or offline sites to do his thing.
Title: What makes Shadowrun...Shadowrun???
Post by: Spinachcat on July 18, 2014, 09:57:52 PM
Quote from: CRKrueger;768685How much of the Shadowrun Feel can be captured without any of the Shadowrun Setting?

That's the crux of the issue. Unlike OD&D or RQ or Traveller, much of the feel of the game is translated from the rules as the settings are implied through the mechanical choices by the designers. This project however is like retrocloning Dark Sun or Exalted, where its not the rules, but the setting.

Settings are protected intellectual property, but Shadowrun like many interesting IPs are combos of genres. There is no copyright over the idea of combining Cyberpunk + Fantasy and thus I hope to capture the lightning a bottle, but avoid threading on Shadowrun's ground - not just due to legal issues, but also deep respect for their work.


Quote from: CRKrueger;768692One of the problems I see is the source of magic.
Shadowrun weaved cyberpunk into fantasy via the Earthdawn cosmology and the cycle of magic.  Why are magical beings from our myths reappearing?  

I'm going with Officially Undefined and making several theories and ideas as major rumors/beliefs in the setting and the GM can choose what is real and what is false. That question of WTF? is a big issue in my setting which I am going to put in the early days of the transition.  I'm thinking of starting the timeline 7 years into The Big Change so society is still in major flux and "New Day, New Weird Shit" is still being discovered. The PCs will be on the cutting edge of discovering the unknown.

I actually prefer Chaos Earth to Rifts - I like the energy of being inside the apocalypse, or in this case The Big Change and its immediate aftermath instead of in the future when nobody blinks at an Elf casting spells.

I'm thinking Shadowrun: First Generation.


Quote from: CRKrueger;768692That constant societal friction of the old game was changed.

It's front and center in my setting. I am going for social upheaval, not just friction.


Quote from: CRKrueger;768692Magic and it's expression, I'm convinced, is the key to the Shadowrun Feel.

I will think more on this. What do you (all of you) feel is unique about how Shadowrun expresses magic in its setting?


Quote from: CRKrueger;768692The nature of decking, of the consensual hallucination of the Matrix is as alien to the thought process of someone who's never experienced it, as magic is.

Agreed. Both Magic and Matrix must be Weird/Cool and not Mundane.


Quote from: CRKrueger;768692Cyberware - yeah you need lots and it needs to be cool, but again it needs to be alienating in some way.

I always liked the rule in Cyberpunk 2020 that cyberware had a random cost to your humanity. AKA, you don't know how hard the inhumanity of the embedded tech hits you until AFTER the operation.


Quote from: CRKrueger;768692When your mage or shaman looks at him, he looks dead, he can't be magically healed, and something that drains life force, will kill him in a fraction of the time it would a normal person.

Definitely need to figure out how I want to express this mechanically. I'm thinking negative saves to magic and penalties to magical healing and even "anti-saves" for helpful magic - aka, you need make a save just to get the benefit of a helpful spell.


Quote from: CRKrueger;768693It's not really pleasing to say this, but after writing the above post, another aspect of the Shadowrun Feel is, like all the games of the 90's, what people would probably call today Special Snowflakeism.

I'm cool with Special Snowflakes...as long as the everyone knows we're descending into hell with no kid gloves.

I'm happy for PCs who are cool and unique and stand out in the setting, but chargen will be fast because combat will be deadly. OD&D deadly, not Friday Night Firefight deadly which was really nutball.  


Quote from: CRKrueger;768693You might want to take a look at Daddy Warpig's Shadowrun analogue, or even Trollman's for comparisons.

Any links?
Title: What makes Shadowrun...Shadowrun???
Post by: James Gillen on July 19, 2014, 03:29:36 AM
Quote from: Marleycat;770340Hackers should be like Hardison on Leverage yes he can do a remote hack but more likely he either breaks in or is working with a pure burglar type to get into high security areas or offline sites to do his thing.


Leverage is actually a pretty good model for this genre. ;)

JG
Title: What makes Shadowrun...Shadowrun???
Post by: Spinachcat on July 19, 2014, 05:07:53 AM
Quote from: CRKrueger;768697Shadowland.

Hell yeah, that's gonna be a nightmare to imitate / recreate / re-originate.

I have been playing around with cyber-slang and thinking about what voices are going to speak in the sidebars. The interesting thing about the Rise of BRIC is the chance to steal catch phrases and slang from those nations.


Quote from: CRKrueger;768697The USA is now 7 nations, what the hell happens to the NFL?

They're a multi-national corporation and there's a World Superbowl with teams from 17 countries competing...and now teams have shamans and mages. There's World Football League trademarked in-game spells and rules on what spirits can be summoned in the 3rd quarter.

It's not Blood Bowl...that's played illegally. Remember the 80s B-movie obsession with underground cage fights to the death? We got those on pay-per-view if you know where to go.  

I want game shows like the original Robocop too.


Quote from: CRKrueger;768697or what GW did with Dark Future.  There's more flavor and soul stuffed into that friggin' carwars game then half the 4th splats.

Holy hell, I forgot about Dark Future. Definitely going back to that well for ideas. I've already decided to drag some Car Wars kicking and screaming into my game.


Quote from: CRKrueger;768697I dunno if this is something you're thinking of publishing or not.

I've been farting around with various drafts for years and years. I have been bizarrely obsessed with how OD&D and Gamma World can blend for 3 decades now and I have 8 games - some just a few pages, a couple a few hundred pages - and over the years, one of them has been morphing into a OD&D / Shadowrun and RPGPundit's thread about what non-OSR game would you retroclone? got me thinking about this project again.

So now I'm farting around more seriously with the goal of making something worth playtesting. If the playtests are fun, then I will go the Kickstarter route and see if there is any interest.
Title: What makes Shadowrun...Shadowrun???
Post by: Spinachcat on July 19, 2014, 05:26:31 AM
Quote from: Mark Plemmons;768734Yeah, you have to set clear boundaries between what the tech PCs can do vs the magic PCs.

Definitely. Technomancy / technowizardry is a rough spot. My thinking is for technomancy to be more focused on power / electricity as it interacts with devices. It can short out a camera, but not reprogram it.

I am also thinking about techno-spirits and ghosts in the machine. Actual ghosts.


Quote from: golan2072;768784In SR2, a Decker was a highly-specialized professional with highly-specialized (and expensive) gear who would go to a secure site, hook up (physically!) with the computer system, and do amazing things, e.g. disable/re-route security cameras, steal data etc).

This is my vision for the Hacker.


Quote from: golan2072;768784However, the decking part of the game was separate from the normal part of the game, and split the party.

And decking has its own unique mechanical subsystem...which drove some people crazy but was really flavorful. Unfortunately, it took too long.

Quote from: golan2072;768784What you need is hacking which is the work of a highly-specialized professional with highly-specialized gear BUT who can participate in regular play activities and combat.

That should be easy! :(
Title: What makes Shadowrun...Shadowrun???
Post by: Spinachcat on July 19, 2014, 05:29:43 AM
Quote from: Koren n'Rhys;770329I, too , am slowly tinkering at a cyberpunk/shadowrun OSR game, based mostly on B/X (well, Lab Lord and Mutant Future makes it easier) so finding this discussion was pretty interesting.

It's pistols at dawn for you buckaroo. :)

...and I'm chipped and wired.
Title: What makes Shadowrun...Shadowrun???
Post by: Ladybird on July 19, 2014, 05:57:52 AM
Quote from: Spinachcat;770262I'm aiming the crunch based on OD&D so there will be plenty of free-form and non-CR dependent play. In fact, I'm utterly unsure how I plan to help GMs determine adventures with appropriate level threats.

A lot of the runner's opposition is going to be basically the same types of people, but who are on the other side of the fence. You could perhaps have corpsec that are the equivelant of, say, lvl 2 characters, lvl 5 characters, lvl 8 characters, etc; so that lets players see their characters start off weak, advance, see themselves break into the next "tier" of work, etc.

You've also got the advantage that shadowrun and osr players both never expect to be going into a fair fight, always expect to have to work around the targets.

Quote from: Spinachcat;770481I'm going with Officially Undefined and making several theories and ideas as major rumors/beliefs in the setting and the GM can choose what is real and what is false. That question of WTF? is a big issue in my setting which I am going to put in the early days of the transition.  I'm thinking of starting the timeline 7 years into The Big Change so society is still in major flux and "New Day, New Weird Shit" is still being discovered. The PCs will be on the cutting edge of discovering the unknown.

If there were a bunch of elements in the magic system that could each be used to "prove" magic is THIS THING, but were also all mutually incompatible, that would be fun.
Title: What makes Shadowrun...Shadowrun???
Post by: Koren n'Rhys on July 19, 2014, 10:28:37 AM
Quote from: Spinachcat;770547It's pistols at dawn for you buckaroo. :)

...and I'm chipped and wired.

When and where? Your dead tech is no match for my mad phys ad abilities! :o

Unfortunately,  I seem to spend WAY more time reading other games, forums and blogs than I do wrting anything. It sounds like you have all sorts of stuff in semi-playable form, so cheers! Can't wait to see some of it someday. More choices are always better for the hobby, IMO.
In any case, I'm aiming for small scale, free and mostly fun for me. Write what I want to play, tinker and add over time, and enjoy the process.

Re: Hacking, and the genre in general, I see Leverage as a great play model too, as well as Burn Notice. Rules wise, I'm leaning towards a mechanic based on the clerics turning table. Systems, AIs, etc have an HD rating you roll against there, as opposed to a more modern DC mechanic. I do like the idea of a critical sucess/failure though. Still thinking on how to implement that.
Title: What makes Shadowrun...Shadowrun???
Post by: Koren n'Rhys on July 19, 2014, 10:34:28 AM
What are you dojng with mgic, Spinichcat?  Vancian? spell points? With 5e trickling out, I like what I'm seeing there, with known vs. Prepared spells, spell slots and so on. Mechanics for casting heals or damage spells with higher level slots to empower them seem really nice.
Title: What makes Shadowrun...Shadowrun???
Post by: golan2072 on July 20, 2014, 10:11:20 AM
Quote from: Spinachcat;770546That should be easy! :(
This is why most non-cyberpunk RPGs (and some cyberpunk ones, too) use a simple skill roll for hacking... But if you want hacking on the fly, you'll need very good guidelines about what can and cannot be hacked, and what you can do when you hack it, unlike SR4. You should also retain certain flavour...

Maybe do it a bit like spells ala Mass Effect's Tech powers?
Title: What makes Shadowrun...Shadowrun???
Post by: golan2072 on July 20, 2014, 10:24:31 AM
Quote from: Koren n'Rhys;770557Re: Hacking, and the genre in general, I see Leverage as a great play model too, as well as Burn Notice. Rules wise, I'm leaning towards a mechanic based on the clerics turning table. Systems, AIs, etc have an HD rating you roll against there, as opposed to a more modern DC mechanic. I do like the idea of a critical sucess/failure though. Still thinking on how to implement that.
So you essentially either disable the system temporarily (turn), disable it permanently (destroy), take it over temporarily (rebuke) or take it over permanently (control)? Could actually be a great idea if your game has a lot of robots... Or you can give security cameras HD?
Title: What makes Shadowrun...Shadowrun???
Post by: Spinachcat on July 21, 2014, 02:59:18 PM
Quote from: Ladybird;770549You've also got the advantage that shadowrun and osr players both never expect to be going into a fair fight, always expect to have to work around the targets.

Very true. That gives me a design leeway. I agree that Leverage & Burn Notice are good models. I see this genre as tech/magic espionage where it makes sense to always avoid a fair fight and the opposition is supposed to be life-threatening.  Unlike D&D where the goal is often to clear out the dungeon and kill the Big Bad Guy, the goal in Shadowrun is to Get X and getting X often requires avoiding the BBG and his forces...or ambushing them and blowing them away before they can react.


Quote from: Koren n'Rhys;770557When and where? Your dead tech is no match for my mad phys ad abilities! :o

Awesome!


Quote from: Koren n'Rhys;770557Unfortunately,  I seem to spend WAY more time reading other games, forums and blogs than I do writing anything.

Me too.


Quote from: Koren n'Rhys;770557It sounds like you have all sorts of stuff in semi-playable form, so cheers!

My problem is that I'm rarely satisfied. I won a game design award in 2009 and I still haven't published that damn game because it "still needs editing" and in the meantime, I've tinkerbell'd over to various other projects instead of getting One Damn Thing Done Done Done!!!


Quote from: Koren n'Rhys;770557In any case, I'm aiming for small scale, free and mostly fun for me. Write what I want to play, tinker and add over time, and enjoy the process.

That's healthier than worrying about publishing and trying to please people outside of your home crew when somebody else is GMing your stuff.

The most painful part of the playtest process is watching somebody else GM your game because that's when the flaws really start screaming out.


Quote from: Koren n'Rhys;770557Rules wise, I'm leaning towards a mechanic based on the clerics turning table. Systems, AIs, etc have an HD rating you roll against there, as opposed to a more modern DC mechanic.

That's a really good idea. It's a fun way to bring Turn mechanic into a Shadowrun game.


Quote from: Koren n'Rhys;770558What are you doing with magic, Spinachcat?  Vancian? spell points?

Different rules for different classes. Definitely a Vancian option somewhere. Definitely rituals, especially for the shaman.

Magic is new and thus not fully understood and thus dangerous. Also the danger is exacerbated when trying to control magic beyond your level and trying to cast magic quick and dirty style to save time.

Corporate magic has the advantage of R&D. Street magic is raw.
Title: What makes Shadowrun...Shadowrun???
Post by: Spinachcat on July 21, 2014, 03:11:31 PM
Quote from: golan2072;770731This is why most non-cyberpunk RPGs (and some cyberpunk ones, too) use a simple skill roll for hacking...

And I'll do that too if I can't figure out a cool/fast/fun minigame to make hacking something that feels different and existing on another plane.


Quote from: golan2072;770731But if you want hacking on the fly, you'll need very good guidelines about what can and cannot be hacked, and what you can do when you hack it, unlike SR4. You should also retain certain flavour...

I am cool that anything can be hacked...with enough time. However, time is a resource and PCs will have to choose how and when to spend time.

Unlike a dungeon which will sit there waiting for PCs to loot it, the target of a shadowrun may only be accessible for an hour window tomorrow night.

Also, I believe in corporations employing cube farms of counter-hackers jacked into the Matrix roaming around looking for trouble. The goal of many deckers will be to slip in unnoticed, not just kick in cyberdoors like a digital barbarian.

As a OSR-ish game, I want to put lots of decision power in the GM's hands, but I will certainly give my thoughts on parameters for what can be hacked quickly and what happens when you do.


Quote from: golan2072;770731Maybe do it a bit like spells ala Mass Effect's Tech powers?

I've been playing with a similar idea. I like the idea of a Hacker having to load up his deck like a Vancian spellcaster somewhat, aka disposable programs that don't link back to the deck, once launched, the deck contains no trace, etc.


Quote from: golan2072;770732So you essentially either disable the system temporarily (turn), disable it permanently (destroy), take it over temporarily (rebuke) or take it over permanently (control)? Could actually be a great idea if your game has a lot of robots... Or you can give security cameras HD?

Damn, that sounds good.
Title: What makes Shadowrun...Shadowrun???
Post by: Ladybird on July 21, 2014, 03:19:01 PM
Quote from: Spinachcat;771008Corporate magic has the advantage of R&D. Street magic is raw.

This is a situation where having an evolving metaplot and worldbooks would be really cool, so you could see it develop and Corp vs Street magic really differentiate themselves. But if you're still only a few years into it, I don't think that's enough time for corp magic to really have got anywhere interesting.
Title: What makes Shadowrun...Shadowrun???
Post by: Koren n'Rhys on July 22, 2014, 09:20:02 AM
Quote from: Spinachcat;771008Magic is new and thus not fully understood and thus dangerous. Also the danger is exacerbated when trying to control magic beyond your level and trying to cast magic quick and dirty style to save time.

Corporate magic has the advantage of R&D. Street magic is raw.
Quote from: Ladybird;771013This is a situation where having an evolving metaplot and worldbooks would be really cool, so you could see it develop and Corp vs Street magic really differentiate themselves. But if you're still only a few years into it, I don't think that's enough time for corp magic to really have got anywhere interesting.

I'm not a big fan of publisher-defined setting evolution, but I'd agree that in this case, it would be a neat thing to model mechanically, somehow. I'm definitely looking forward to someday seeing how you pull all this together, Spinachcat.

I'm glad other people are trying to accomplish the same thing I am.  I mix and match bits from so many editions and systems that more options is ALWAYS better, and I love to see how differently people can approach similar issues in game design. I'm not sure if you're familiar with Jonathan Becker of the B/X Blackrazor blog.  He's published a couple B/X books and has posted at length about a B/X Shadowrun game he's writing and playtesting.  I like his other stuff, so the teasing posts are a bit maddening.  I wish he'd either get it done and out, or share the rough version if he's not going to finish it! :)
Title: What makes Shadowrun...Shadowrun???
Post by: Koren n'Rhys on July 22, 2014, 11:29:56 AM
Quote from: Spinachcat;771010
Quote from: golan2072;770732So you essentially either disable the system temporarily (turn), disable it permanently (destroy), take it over temporarily (rebuke) or take it over permanently (control)? Could actually be a great idea if your game has a lot of robots... Or you can give security cameras HD?
Damn, that sounds good.
Essentially, yes, that's exactly how it'll work.  I haven't figured out the precise tiers yet.  Given the roll is 2d6, I think a critical failure on snake eyes (sets off alarm/call on-duty defense decker or IC) and critical success on box cards (gain control and program in back door access) are a given.  In between?  Based on the table, you get increasingly easy success, up to an auto-success - a basic spoof of security, gain control of a camera/elevator/etc, find sought data.  The higher level "destroy" results in gaining control, temporary reprogramming, system crash if desired -that sort of thing. Again, with a double 6 simply adding a permanent back-door for future access.

I want to model increased hacking ability vs. varying levels of system, so need something beyond a binary pass/fail hacking roll.  I also could see a version of reaction roll coming into play somehow, but I haven't figured out if I can cleanly combine that with the turning mechanic.  Maybe use that as a measure of how well the reprogramming worked on a "number" result, but a "T" is fully successful.

RE: Vancian "spell slots" got programs - I like this idea too, and have considered something along those lines. Single-use programs that give a bonus on the turning roll - either roll as X level, or at +X levels, or treat the target as X HD lower.  Have you seen Hulks & Horrors by John Berry? He does the "program slots" thing for his Scientist class. He also wrote Arcana Rising - essentially his version of B/X Shadowrun.

It always comes back around to the issue of decking forcing the game to grind to a halt for everyone else.  It's so integral to the genre that you want to offer some complexity without turning it into a mini-game, IMO.

BTW, are there any other threads here I haven't found that I should be following?
Title: What makes Shadowrun...Shadowrun???
Post by: Mark Plemmons on July 22, 2014, 12:08:43 PM
Quote from: Koren n'Rhys;771246I want to model increased hacking ability vs. varying levels of system, so need something beyond a binary pass/fail hacking roll.  I also could see a version of reaction roll coming into play somehow, but I haven't figured out if I can cleanly combine that with the turning mechanic.  Maybe use that as a measure of how well the reprogramming worked on a "number" result, but a "T" is fully successful.

So a "failed but not severely failed" hacking roll might cause an unexpected system malfunction instead of a successful hack? Something along those lines? "Turning" sounds like a good idea.

Quote from: Koren n'Rhys;771246RE: Vancian "spell slots" got programs - I like this idea too, and have considered something along those lines. Single-use programs that give a bonus on the turning roll - either roll as X level, or at +X levels, or treat the target as X HD lower.  Have you seen Hulks & Horrors by John Berry? He does the "program slots" thing for his Scientist class. He also wrote Arcana Rising - essentially his version of B/X Shadowrun.

It always comes back around to the issue of decking forcing the game to grind to a halt for everyone else.  It's so integral to the genre that you want to offer some complexity without turning it into a mini-game, IMO.

Yeah, that's always the danger of special rules for different character types. For what it's worth, I like the idea of "software/program slots" instead of "spell slots", and the varying levels of success. If it's not any more complicated than a wizard casting a spell, it shouldn't drag the game down.

Quote from: Koren n'Rhys;771246BTW, are there any other threads here I haven't found that I should be following?

Not a thread, but if you haven't done it already, go grab a copy of my full Corporia RPG from DriveThruRPG (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/127226/Corporia-RPG) or RPGNow (http://www.rpgnow.com/product/127226/Corporia-RPG) since you can get it for free (Pay What You Want) until August 1st, to celebrate the ENnie nom for Best Electronic Book.

Sorry that reads like an advertisement! I'm certainly not recommending it because I think it's the ultimate hacking system, but because I see you posting a lot of the same concerns and questions that I pondered when designing it last year. (Specifically see pages 18, 32-33, and 82-83.) It might help you to see how I approached those same problems, even if you only decide that what I did was horrible and you can think of better ideas.

For the most part, I went more binary with pass/fail, with the DM determining the difference between a bad roll and a really bad roll, or a good roll and a really good roll, etc.
Title: What makes Shadowrun...Shadowrun???
Post by: Turanil on July 22, 2014, 01:18:47 PM
I have been working on a supplement for my own OSR game (see signature below). It will be called Future Heroes & Witchery, with 100-110 pages of additional races, classes, equipment (including cybernetics), etc., and spells in a modern world (mostly borrowed from the d20 modern arcana SRD). So, while this is not specifically intended for a Shadowrun emulation, I think that in combining Fantastic H&W with Future H&W, one will have all the rules necessary to run a custom Shadowrun campaign at least one where cyberpunk meets with sorcery. There is 15 new classes, including among others: the Martial Artists (so with cybernetics added in, you get a "street samurai" easily), the Magitek Wizard (a wizard in the 21st century), or the Hacker.

Text is almost complete, but I will have to work on other stuff in the meantime, yet expect a release before end of the year.
Title: What makes Shadowrun...Shadowrun???
Post by: Koren n'Rhys on July 22, 2014, 02:08:33 PM
Hi Turnail - thanks for your comments.  I'm certainly familiar with FH&W as a regular over at Dragonsfoot, and definitely look forward to a "future" version.  I have to admit it's a bit rules -heavy for my taste, but you've gone out of your way to squeeze in every possible option you could think of, so I can't fault you for being a completist!

Mark - Let's see...
"Unexpected malfunction" on a failure? - sure.  Might not set off any alarms right away, but would make for interesting consequences to a failure. I like that.

I had grabbed the free Corporia QS, but not the full game, despite it being PWYW.  I guess I should go do that now and see what you come up with. I always feel a little bad about picking one of those up for free, but I know if I ever actually played one, instead of merely thumbing through for ideas, I'd go back and throw the author a bit of cash.  I'll check it out.
Title: What makes Shadowrun...Shadowrun???
Post by: Spinachcat on July 22, 2014, 10:46:27 PM
Quote from: Ladybird;771013But if you're still only a few years into it, I don't think that's enough time for corp magic to really have got anywhere interesting.

I fully agree, but somehow a couple corps very quickly marketed their own magic...how they did this is one of the questions in the setting for the GM to answer as they like...or not.

I am a big fan of rumor charts where the GM chooses the "truth" (or truths) for their campaign.


Quote from: Koren n'Rhys;771222I'm not sure if you're familiar with Jonathan Becker of the B/X Blackrazor blog.  He's published a couple B/X books and has posted at length about a B/X Shadowrun game he's writing and playtesting.  

I know his blog, but I haven't followed his Cry Dark Future project.
http://bxblackrazor.blogspot.com/

Poke him to join this thread or start his own!


Quote from: Turanil;771277I have been working on a supplement for my own OSR game (see signature below).

Is anyone NOT writing a Shadowrun clone??? :)

Looking forward to your work Turanil! In the meantime, post about your progress and ideas!  


Quote from: Mark Plemmons;771255So a "failed but not severely failed" hacking roll might cause an unexpected system malfunction instead of a successful hack?

Perhaps on a minor fail/almost success, the hacker has the choice to "force" the hack and set off alarms or the choice to have their hack just not work.


Quote from: Mark Plemmons;771255Not a thread, but if you haven't done it already, go grab a copy of my full Corporia RPG from DriveThruRPG (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/127226/Corporia-RPG) or RPGNow (http://www.rpgnow.com/product/127226/Corporia-RPG) since you can get it for free (Pay What You Want) until August 1st, to celebrate the ENnie nom for Best Electronic Book.

Pimp that book!!! :)


Quote from: Koren n'Rhys;771246I also could see a version of reaction roll coming into play somehow, but I haven't figured out if I can cleanly combine that with the turning mechanic.  Maybe use that as a measure of how well the reprogramming worked on a "number" result, but a "T" is fully successful.

What about expanding T and D to T1, T2, D1, D2 where higher Ts and Ds do more and give more options for the hacker. Also, hackers might be able to specialize in certain systems, giving them more latitude to do XYZ when they gain a T or D. That would be an interesting way to add class abilities too or create subclasses.


Quote from: Koren n'Rhys;771246Single-use programs that give a bonus on the turning roll - either roll as X level, or at +X levels, or treat the target as X HD lower.

I'd avoid modifying the die roll, but considering the Hacker at +/- level would work nicely.

My only concern is using a chart. I hate stopping the game to look anything up in books. I'd definitely integrate it into the character sheet.
 

Quote from: Koren n'Rhys;771246Have you seen Hulks & Horrors by John Berry?

John Berry goes by J Arcane on this forum and Hulks & Horrors rocks!
Title: What makes Shadowrun...Shadowrun???
Post by: golan2072 on July 23, 2014, 12:35:17 PM
My ideas about hacking:

1) Anything which could be wired and which is expected to be hacked (e.g. security cameras, locks, cyberarms, most small arms, corporate mainframes etc) probably lacks wi-fi connectivity, as this would be too easy a target for hackers otherwise. Robots and "smart" vehicles, as well as personal smartphones, are possible to remote-hack. To hack anything lacking wi-fi, you need to locate the data trunk connected to it, and attach your C-Deck to it. With wi-fi, your C-Deck can hack remotely.

2) Hacking is by "turn undead" based on the tables of whatever OSR game you're basing this on. All hackable systems have "hit dice" based on their ICE, and "turning" is by hit-dice. You can either have user-level access (successful roll or a "T" result) or admin-level access (a "D" result). Once you hacked the system, the ICE gets to roll a detection roll against your deck's Stealth rating (which works just as an attack roll vs. AC). If it succeeds, you'll have to fight it (using cyber-AC and cyber-attack bonus). If it fails, you are undetected. This whole mess could be bypassed, of course, by "social engineering" - i.e. conning the passwords from employees at site and/or stealing it in any other way. This could be simultaneus to physical combat - i.e. your Fighting-Man is shooting at the big Sec-2 Robot, while your hacker is attacking its ICE at the same time using the same turn sequence.

3) Thus C-Decks have six ratings: Deck level (i.e. "Cleric" level; you can't effectively use a Deck level higher (or much higher?) than your hacker's class level, though), Stealth ("AC" vs. Detection), Detection ("to-hit vs. Stealth), Cyber-HP, Cyber-AC and Cyber-attack. Your Deck also has a "weapon" - Pulsar program which damages ICE or serves against a security decker, or the highly-illegal Hammer program, which is essentially "Black" ICE vs. security hackers.

4) Thus ICE have four ratings - HD/HP, Detection ("attack bonus"/THAC0 vs. Stealth), Cyber-AC and Cyber-attack.

5) ICE varies by what it can do to you if it damages you in cybercombat. "White" ICE simply damages your Deck's cyber-HP, and if they go to zero you crash, but can reboot. "Grey" ICE damages your Deck's cyber-HP, but if they go to zero - your Deck burns (needs extensive repairs). "Black" ICE directly damages your HP, and if they go to zero, you die (or go into negative HP, depends on the system used).

6) Big mainframes have security hackers and/or AIs. These have ratings like C-Decks and have attack programs.
Title: What makes Shadowrun...Shadowrun???
Post by: Spinachcat on July 26, 2014, 02:28:16 AM
Quote from: golan2072;7715291) Anything which could be wired and which is expected to be hacked (e.g. security cameras, locks, cyberarms, most small arms, corporate mainframes etc) probably lacks wi-fi connectivity, as this would be too easy a target for hackers otherwise.

It's a good rule of thumb. It's another reason the hacker has to show up with his C-deck to the scene of the crime, instead of sitting at home or in the tank parked outside.

Quote from: golan2072;771529You can either have user-level access (successful roll or a "T" result) or admin-level access (a "D" result). Once you hacked the system, the ICE gets to roll a detection roll against your deck's Stealth rating (which works just as an attack roll vs. AC). If it succeeds, you'll have to fight it (using cyber-AC and cyber-attack bonus). If it fails, you are undetected.

Excellent ideas!

Quote from: golan2072;7715293) Thus C-Decks have six ratings: Deck level (i.e. "Cleric" level; you can't effectively use a Deck level higher (or much higher?) than your hacker's class level, though), Stealth ("AC" vs. Detection), Detection ("to-hit vs. Stealth), Cyber-HP, Cyber-AC and Cyber-attack. Your Deck also has a "weapon" - Pulsar program which damages ICE or serves against a security decker, or the highly-illegal Hammer program, which is essentially "Black" ICE vs. security hackers.

I was working on this recently and I've been looking at how to use spell-like combat for the decks, but your idea of programs as weapons (digital swords) might be the better way. Or I may look to combine the idea of having specialized "spell" programs and the digital sword.
Title: What makes Shadowrun...Shadowrun???
Post by: golan2072 on July 26, 2014, 09:40:11 AM
Quote from: Spinachcat;772501Excellent ideas!
Thanks!

Quote from: Spinachcat;772501I was working on this recently and I've been looking at how to use spell-like combat for the decks, but your idea of programs as weapons (digital swords) might be the better way. Or I may look to combine the idea of having specialized "spell" programs and the digital sword.
Thanks! You may add throwaway (or once-per-encounter) program modules to the otherwise regular "weapon" programs, but the core would be a few rolls to hack everything.
Title: What makes Shadowrun...Shadowrun???
Post by: Spinachcat on July 30, 2014, 06:25:26 PM
I definitely want to exam the idea of throwaway program modules to enhance the hacking experience - whether its steath, attack, defense, etc.

I will have to figure out why these programs are "throwaway" and why not always available on the C-deck. My initial idea is the throwaway program launches and erases itself from the C-deck to protect the hacker's identity.

Maybe it will be a more spontaneous skill of Coding where the hacker can code on the fly creating various specialist programs tailored to the system and situation they are currently hacking.
Title: What makes Shadowrun...Shadowrun???
Post by: Ladybird on July 30, 2014, 06:32:19 PM
Quote from: Spinachcat;773638I will have to figure out why these programs are "throwaway" and why not always available on the C-deck. My initial idea is the throwaway program launches and erases itself from the C-deck to protect the hacker's identity.

Networked, learning ICE, like the next evolution of our antivirus software.

The megacorps subscribe to it because this way, they get to protect against the ICE that attacks them, and the ICE that's used against the other megas.

For fun, maybe make the "does the ICE build immunity to the exploit used for this attack" decision random rather than automatic, and don't tell the players.

Alternatively, the hacks may be one-and-done in order to not bring too much attention to the exploit used, like how secretive the jailbreaking community is about their exploits these days, and how they don't risk burning more exploits than they need to. Once they used something, Apple know about it, and it gets patched in the next release.
Title: What makes Shadowrun...Shadowrun???
Post by: Spinachcat on August 05, 2014, 02:19:20 AM
Quote from: Ladybird;773641The megacorps subscribe to it because this way, they get to protect against the ICE that attacks them, and the ICE that's used against the other megas.

This makes sense and its logical, but I wonder if this is too much cooperation in a corporate dystopia. Like rival kingdoms in D&D, the PCs need to be able to exploit the rivalries because there's nowhere to hide if the corps become a monolithic entity.

But ICE has to be able to learn...or does it? Hmm...

I've read some articles over the years about the Computer Age hitting a processing wall at some point that will require a tech leap. In the time before the tech leap, the processing wall will create a max limit of what can be done by computers.

I am thinking that Tech Wall could be part of the dystopian stagnation. AKA, that's why branding and fashion and useless bits are the rave because the actual tech isn't getting any better. Until the tech leap happens, the corps can only sell bells & whistles.

Think about swords. We can't really make a blade much better than a 17th century katana. The light saber or the monofilament blade will be way better, but that's a tech leap beyond us.

Am I making any sense?


Quote from: Ladybird;773641For fun, maybe make the "does the ICE build immunity to the exploit used for this attack" decision random rather than automatic, and don't tell the players.

Hell yeah!

One of the things I am working on is pre-mission scouting. If your team doesn't find out that last month the corp had another team try to go for the same data with the same method, then they are going to be really surprised when they find a very hardened security.

I am a big believer in Corporate Laziness vs. Corporate Panic. Companies that haven't been hit for a while get cheap with security because that's money that isn't going to profits. However, corporations panic easily and a rash of attacks on sister corporations can set off a spending spree on both electronic and physical security.

AKA, nobody can be on war footing 24/7. They may give that appearance, but it ain't really happening. And unlike nations, the corps are at the mercy of shareholders who demand profits and execs who don't deliver profits get fired...and thus shortcuts are taken.  

Somehow, this will be expressed in GM mechanics. Easy, fun, non-invasive and optional to help the GM add another element to their design.
Title: What makes Shadowrun...Shadowrun???
Post by: Spinachcat on August 12, 2014, 11:24:03 PM
GUNS...let's talk about the bang bang!

I am NOT ever going to compete with the sheer volume of weaponry in games like Shadowrun and Rifts. It's mindboggling and TO ME, I don't see enough variation in the various weapons to justify the pages.

That's said, I want some ways to differentiate the weaponry more than just damage and I want a good healthy selection.

One of the ideas I have been playing with is STYLE as a stat of some sort, based on wearing/holding/carrying branded items. In a corporate dominated dystopia where people are essentially powerless to vote for anything of real value, they glom onto brands for identity. I will discuss this more in a later post, but essentially using the guns of the Top Brand will increase your style, even if those aren't the best guns on the market. And for stuff like intimidation and "reaction rolls", its style over substance in this world.

So here's my initial thoughts on how guns are rated...

Accuracy (rated by short/medium/long/extreme range?)
Ammo (capacity of magazine, working on how I want to do this)
Availability (how hard to find on the street)
Cost (I am unsure how I want to do money vs. resources)
Damage (everyone's favorite)
Penetration (how nasty vs. armor)
Rate of Fire (burst, full auto, etc)
Recoil (how much the mule kicks, makes STR stat useful in a gun game)
Reload (how fast you can reload, unsure if this will work)
Style (explained above)
Weight (is it heavy? is it light so you can hold 2? bulky?)

Am I missing something?
Title: What makes Shadowrun...Shadowrun???
Post by: golan2072 on August 13, 2014, 03:34:34 AM
What basic rule system will you be using for this? S&W Core? S&W Whitebox? BFRPG? Or something closer to Shadowrun? In a D&D-type ruleset, Style could simply be a bonus (or penalty!) to Reaction rolls.
Title: What makes Shadowrun...Shadowrun???
Post by: Koren n'Rhys on August 13, 2014, 07:17:04 AM
Hmm. I have to agree that in typical CP games there are WAY too many choices with little variation. I want to narrow it down to a handful of categories and have a few options within each. The variation will be based on quality mostly. Better quality means more accurate,  which gives a longer range rather than a to-hit bonus, poor quality has a chance to jam or fail maybe.

Penetration will be by ammo type, not the gun. Recoil? Might be too fussy for me. Probably a flat rule rather than gun-specific if I use it at all.

Overall, very simplified, more along the lines of Mutant Future than SR or CP2020.

The Style stat is interesting, and I hadn't considered that. My thought was more of a Reputation stat, like Honor worked from the old AD&D Oriental Adventures, but even that seems too fiddly. I do like the idea of Style giving a reaction bonus though.
Title: What makes Shadowrun...Shadowrun???
Post by: Ladybird on August 13, 2014, 08:58:39 AM
Quote from: Spinachcat;779091One of the ideas I have been playing with is STYLE as a stat of some sort, based on wearing/holding/carrying branded items. In a corporate dominated dystopia where people are essentially powerless to vote for anything of real value, they glom onto brands for identity.

...and maybe, once you get renowned enough, sponsorships?

(The analogy here would be to something like extreme sports people IRL; even though many things aren't entirely legal, there are still equipment companies willing to get their names on people's gear. The runner community will be outed to the public sooner or later; even before then, poorer runners might still be happy to accept gear as payment, or manufacturers may be happy to pay for advertising directly into the community or to their targets - CCTV is still TV! It isn't even much of a risk to put your brand name on gear, when it's an open secret amongst the corps that everyone sends runners against everyone else.)

It would be cool to add branding on to guns, so each of the main manufacturers works slightly differently. Perhaps some kind of pretty simple system, where a user can buy a generic gun, or pay more for a Brand Name which comes with a bonus.
Title: What makes Shadowrun...Shadowrun???
Post by: Silverlion on August 13, 2014, 12:41:44 PM
Funny enough Spinachcat, I was thinking of doing a somewhat sightlier crunchy fate-ish Shadowrun thing, where you aspected your "special" gear.

So you didn't just have a Deck, but a "Kawasbushi Custom Layout Cyberline Optic System 4000 with platinum connections for near instant response."
Title: What makes Shadowrun...Shadowrun???
Post by: Spinachcat on August 13, 2014, 04:47:00 PM
Quote from: golan2072;779136What basic rule system will you be using for this? S&W Core? S&W Whitebox? BFRPG? Or something closer to Shadowrun? In a D&D-type ruleset, Style could simply be a bonus (or penalty!) to Reaction rolls.

The core system concept is Old School D&D. I don't narrow to edition as inspiration because I am thief. When I run 0e, I'm lying. What I run as OD&D is that week's vision based on how I'm feeling about my 35 years of everything from 0e, 1e, 2e, Palladium Fantasy, Runequest, C&C, S&W, and whatever I've been inspired by blogs.

In general, anyone who's played any Old School D&D will grok the system I've been planning for the Shadow-whatever really quickly. Also, anyone new to just 5e or PF would also go, hey this is cool and easy.

But FOR ME it is vital that systems and setting mesh. I have a vision for how I want this game to play. I want to take those moments from my Shadowrun games when the SR system didn't get in the way and make that the norm of gameplay. But I also don't want superlight. I want sub-systems that add fun and enhance the core concepts of the setting.

Style will be a modifier to Reaction rolls, but I may have more plans for it too. I gotta run my ideas through some playtests.


Quote from: Koren n'Rhys;779156Better quality means more accurate,  which gives a longer range rather than a to-hit bonus, poor quality has a chance to jam or fail maybe.

I love gun jams (because of movies), but I've been chewed out by gun owners who point out how rare a jam is with modern weapons, even those that are not properly maintained. There's some video of an old crapass AK-47 buried in the sand that doesn't jam when fired. It made me sad.

So for future weapons, jam has to be even rarer. I'm gonna include that as fumble option with the caveat that it should be saved for low quality weapons in bad shape. AKA, you've been hit with a fireball.

Here's my issue with "quality" - the CP world is a corporate dystopia, where profit is god in a world of style over substance. I also don't want 100s of guns, but I do want company flavor to come through their wares.


Quote from: Koren n'Rhys;779156Penetration will be by ammo type, not the gun.

Good point! Thank you.


Quote from: Koren n'Rhys;779156Recoil? Might be too fussy for me. Probably a flat rule rather than gun-specific if I use it at all.

Here's my initial thoughts on Recoil. Each weapon has a Recoil stat (0,1,2,3) and if your STR modifier is lower than the Recoil, you have a problem, taking a -1 modifier to hit per bonus you are missing. So if you have STR -1, then you would suffer a -3 to hit with a Recoil 2 weapon.


Quote from: Koren n'Rhys;779156My thought was more of a Reputation stat, like Honor worked from the old AD&D Oriental Adventures, but even that seems too fiddly.

I love OA's Reputation/Honor idea and I plan to use a version of it.


Quote from: Ladybird;779171...and maybe, once you get renowned enough, sponsorships?

AWESOME!!!

Quote from: Ladybird;779171CCTV is still TV!

That is a TERRIFYING and great idea.

I may even include an X-Games style aspect to the setting where runners can even compete "legit" [or maybe not] where video'ing the run is part of the gig.


Quote from: Silverlion;779222Funny enough Spinachcat, I was thinking of doing a somewhat sightlier crunchy fate-ish Shadowrun thing, where you aspected your "special" gear.

It bothers me that you and I have several times been playing around with similar ideas because you actually have a track record of getting off your ass and finishing stuff!!!

An old friend of mine love HeroQuest because he could attribute items, taking a basic sword and declaring it "edge shines in the sun", "held by my father as he lay dying", etc even beyond the combat-ish stuff like "drinks blood of orcs", "curved to slice muscle", etc.

Certainly, you can Aspect gear like crazy in FATE. I've often wished I could enjoy FATE because I respect its mechanics, but damn that system and I don't mix.
Title: What makes Shadowrun...Shadowrun???
Post by: golan2072 on August 14, 2014, 07:07:31 AM
My thoughts in Style - you have a Style score, going from -3 to +3, and when rolling for reaction (except for Intimidation), you add the lower of either your Style score or your Charisma modifier. Being charismatic means little in this trendy world without having a cool style, and being stylish means little without knowing how to walk the walk and talk the talk. So a character with a CHA modifier of +0 would usually invest in stuff (clothes, guns, smartphone, car) giving him 3 Style points, while a CHA MOD +3 Fixer will invest in six points of Style.

As for guns, I'd take the Stars Without Number approach - in the equipment list you put generic firearms (Pistol, Heavy Pistol, Shotgun, Machine Pistol, Submachinegun, Assault Rifle, etc), but after that give a list of manufacturers or brands, each with its own attributes, e.g. "SovArms Inc. make inaccurate firearms (-2 to-hit), which are, nonetheless, of legendary durability (never fail due to adverse conditions of even fireballs)" or "Ishimaki Ltd. produces mechanically unremarkable guns which look highly futuristic and which are the current fashion among gunslingers, +2 to Style".
Title: What makes Shadowrun...Shadowrun???
Post by: Spinachcat on August 19, 2014, 07:58:09 PM
Quote from: golan2072;779494My thoughts in Style - you have a Style score, going from -3 to +3, and when rolling for reaction (except for Intimidation), you add the lower of either your Style score or your Charisma modifier.

I like this idea. Though I wonder if it should be add the higher of Style or Charisma, instead of lower? It's clean and easy. I need to see it in playtest, as I want to promote the "style over substance" feel, but I also don't want to diminish the CHA stat.

Quote from: golan2072;779494, but after that give a list of manufacturers or brands, each with its own attributes,

Definitely. I want to create a system for GM's to create their own companies and use my concept of interconnected companies in various industries, OR just use the default "canon" companies I create. The various products will have some level of differentiation for their gear / products.
Title: What makes Shadowrun...Shadowrun???
Post by: Spinachcat on November 01, 2014, 06:17:37 PM
I have been re-reading my old Shadowrun books and reading the new edition of Shadowrun...wow, I really need to write my game. I can't grok where SR has gone mechanically.

My next step of research is going back to 80s Cyberpunk literature. I want to datamine bits that SR did not utilize and see if there is something cool I should include. Any lesser known stories, articles or novels that I should consult?

Anyone have a favorite Cyberpunk comic? Either old or modern? I'd like to see where artists and comic authors took the cyberpunk ideas.
Title: What makes Shadowrun...Shadowrun???
Post by: Mark Plemmons on November 05, 2014, 09:01:37 AM
Quote from: Spinachcat;779091So here's my initial thoughts on how guns are rated...

Accuracy (rated by short/medium/long/extreme range?)
Ammo (capacity of magazine, working on how I want to do this)
Availability (how hard to find on the street)
Cost (I am unsure how I want to do money vs. resources)
Damage (everyone's favorite)
Penetration (how nasty vs. armor)
Rate of Fire (burst, full auto, etc)
Recoil (how much the mule kicks, makes STR stat useful in a gun game)
Reload (how fast you can reload, unsure if this will work)
Style (explained above)
Weight (is it heavy? is it light so you can hold 2? bulky?)

Am I missing something?

I'm not an expert by any means, but I've been doing a bit of firearms research for a supplement I'm working on, and I think recoil and weight often go together.

From http://www.chuckhawks.com/recoil_table.htm :

"Do not forget that rifle weight is a crucial factor in the recoil equation, inversely proportional to recoil. Increase the gun weight by, say, 25% and the recoil goes down by 25%. In the real world, firearms chambered for less powerful cartridges are typically built lighter than firearms chambered for more powerful cartridges. Violate this principle by, for example, chambering a lightweight, short action rifle for a powerful Magnum cartridge like the .300 WSM and the result will be a dramatic increase in kick. Just because it can be done does not mean it makes sense, despite what you might read in advertising copy."

Just something I think is interesting, that you might want to consider.
Title: What makes Shadowrun...Shadowrun???
Post by: Spinachcat on November 09, 2014, 02:00:02 AM
Thanks for the article!

I have been thinking about something else....Hard Currency.

I had this idea that in a world where hackers are chopping into corporations all the damn time and governments are secondary to corporations, it might make sense that digital currency could not be trusted.

AKA, bitcoins and numbers in bank accounts could be too easily manipulated by anyone who could hack or afford some hackers.

In such a world, there might be a de-evolution of currency back to gold. Even government paper money might be bullshit, leaving the only tried and true trusted currency would be the gold standard.  

It would also add a wild west / noir aspect to the game because instead of regularly stealing data, some runs would be about stealing the physical gold, leading to adventures about defending/breaking vaults and armored cars.
Title: What makes Shadowrun...Shadowrun???
Post by: James Gillen on November 10, 2014, 07:47:07 PM
Quote from: Spinachcat;797383Thanks for the article!

I have been thinking about something else....Hard Currency.

I had this idea that in a world where hackers are chopping into corporations all the damn time and governments are secondary to corporations, it might make sense that digital currency could not be trusted.

AKA, bitcoins and numbers in bank accounts could be too easily manipulated by anyone who could hack or afford some hackers.

In such a world, there might be a de-evolution of currency back to gold. Even government paper money might be bullshit, leaving the only tried and true trusted currency would be the gold standard.  

It would also add a wild west / noir aspect to the game because instead of regularly stealing data, some runs would be about stealing the physical gold, leading to adventures about defending/breaking vaults and armored cars.

Bitcoins, like many other turn-of-the-century innovations, were something that this "future" didn't predict.  5th Edition did, however, decide that some people are going back into credsticks as the closest thing to tender in the data-currency economy.

JG
Title: What makes Shadowrun...Shadowrun???
Post by: Sommerjon on November 12, 2014, 02:03:13 PM
Parts of SR that makes my teeth itch are; the extraterritoriality of the Corps, Corps more powerful then governments, and the break up of only certain countries.  

Oh and this:  Who is buying all the shit the Corps are supposedly producing if most can't rub 2 nuyen together?
Title: What makes Shadowrun...Shadowrun???
Post by: James Gillen on November 13, 2014, 08:07:47 PM
Quote from: Sommerjon;798173Parts of SR that makes my teeth itch are; the extraterritoriality of the Corps, Corps more powerful then governments, and the break up of only certain countries.  

Oh and this:  Who is buying all the shit the Corps are supposedly producing if most can't rub 2 nuyen together?

The people who actually have money.
And if it seems odd that the economy only exists for a quickly-dwindling minority of people who actually have resources, well, that's why Cyberpunk isn't science fiction anymore.  ;)

JG
Title: What makes Shadowrun...Shadowrun???
Post by: VengerSatanis on November 17, 2014, 04:04:27 PM
Cool concept, but I don't have the time to read every post in the thread right now.  Besides the fantasy + cyberpunk of 1989, I think making the entire system d6 is needed to truly evoke that Shadowrun feel.  It definitely needs to be simplified and given the OSR treatment.

Maybe you could dip into Dark Conspiracy, too?

How far along are you on the writing?  Do you have a rough draft?

VS
Title: What makes Shadowrun...Shadowrun???
Post by: Spinachcat on November 18, 2014, 10:11:36 PM
Quote from: Sommerjon;798173Parts of SR that makes my teeth itch are; the extraterritoriality of the Corps, Corps more powerful then governments, and the break up of only certain countries.

I am certainly working on this.

My initial thought is Militarized Anarchy. The government and the corps have an uneasy balance of power, but the government no longer has the juice to keep the peace everywhere, thus the ability of corps to run their own fiefdoms.

Also, this means there is no National Johnny Law for the corps to run to when they get hit by the PCs, but the gov't is still there so roads exist.

I was thinking about going the reverse with the countries becoming larger and combined instead of breaking up. Big nations with lots of squabbling sub nations with corporate fiefdoms within them.


Quote from: Sommerjon;798173Who is buying all the shit the Corps are supposedly producing if most can't rub 2 nuyen together?

How the fuck did Apple make so much money off iPhones during the worst years of the recession?

How the fuck did we have huge unemployment, and games like Angry Birds and Candy Crush made a metric fuckton of money from micro-transactions during the same time?

This confuses me as well. Cyberpunk is corporate dystopia, a battle between haves and have nots is a key element BUT even poor people need the basics - so there is plenty of money at the bottom to siphon. I'm thinking of competing 99 cent stores for the lower classes.

I plan to read up on 3rd world economics and get some tutoring on how BRIC countries (Brazil, Russia, India, China) works for day to day commerce on the various class and income levels.


Quote from: VengerSatanis;799245I think making the entire system d6 is needed to truly evoke that Shadowrun feel.

Hmm...I will muse upon this. My initial focus is D20-lite/OSR-ish "D&Disms with guns" for the system, but I can see the appeal of a D6 version.

I bought Jason Richard's Kickstarter for his "Not-Rifts" D6 game called Breachworld which uses Mini-Six so I will think about how that maybe a Mini-Six conversion would be a good idea too.


Quote from: VengerSatanis;799245Maybe you could dip into Dark Conspiracy, too?

Interesting idea! I haven't played Dark Conspiracy since it came out.


Quote from: VengerSatanis;799245How far along are you on the writing?  Do you have a rough draft?

My random notes and scribbles of a madman fill about 40 pages at the moment, I sat down last night to brain barf about chargen and that's another 10 pages of ultra-rough.

Unfortunately, work crap is getting in the way of dedicated writing at the moment.
Title: What makes Shadowrun...Shadowrun???
Post by: VengerSatanis on November 22, 2014, 09:51:17 AM
You're more than welcome to use my little homemade d6 game mechanic:

http://vengersatanis.blogspot.com/2014/02/vsd6.html

It's free and there's no license of anything.  

How do you want it to manifest?  As a full-length RPG?  

I'd like to help out in some way, though my time is also limited...

VS
Title: What makes Shadowrun...Shadowrun???
Post by: Spinachcat on November 23, 2014, 03:23:52 PM
Quote from: VengerSatanis;800283How do you want it to manifest?  As a full-length RPG?

My maniac ego says I want to kick Shadowrun's ass and get me some of that sweet, sweet cyber+magic money via my own IP.
 
My brain says I want to Kickstart a cool RPG and hopefully grow an actual play community that can support a Living Campaign that hopefully could produce a GM resource wiki and a dozen free downloadable adventures each year.  

Fortunately, my common sense says absolutely nothing happens until I finish a rough draft that's worth playtesting.


Quote from: VengerSatanis;800283I'd like to help out in some way, though my time is also limited...

Hell yeah!

Once I have a working rough draft, I will PM everyone on this thread and I'd love feedback from everyone. If I had to throw out an estimated TBA date, I would guesstimate Summer 2015.
Title: What makes Shadowrun...Shadowrun???
Post by: VengerSatanis on November 23, 2014, 04:53:53 PM
Quote from: Spinachcat;800420My maniac ego says I want to kick Shadowrun's ass and get me some of that sweet, sweet cyber+magic money via my own IP.
 
My brain says I want to Kickstart a cool RPG and hopefully grow an actual play community that can support a Living Campaign that hopefully could produce a GM resource wiki and a dozen free downloadable adventures each year.  

Fortunately, my common sense says absolutely nothing happens until I finish a rough draft that's worth playtesting.




Hell yeah!

Once I have a working rough draft, I will PM everyone on this thread and I'd love feedback from everyone. If I had to throw out an estimated TBA date, I would guesstimate Summer 2015.

Yeah, I get twinges of maniacal ego from time to time.  Understood.  

Sounds good.  I'll be waiting on the playtest document.  Hope the writing goes smooth.

VS