Quote from: golan2072;767649IMHO, Shadowrun is most enjoyable when being played as an over-the-top, quite gonzo, 1980's-action-movie game with fantasy and cyberpunk elements thrown in for a good measure.

My points about that:

1) Coolness tramps EVERYTHING. If you have to choose between a cool but unrealistic element and a mundane but realistic element, choose the cool element every time.

2) This is a future as imagined in 1989 but with strong fantasy elements. Resist the urge to add smartphones, wi-fi or nanotech, or even a realistic internet. SR4 added many of these elements and thus lost much of the original flavour of the setting. Keyboard-sized cyberdecks with physical wire connections, obviously mechanical chrome cyberlimbs and ATM-sized street vid-phone/computer terminals are the way to go.

Cyberarm Panther Assault Cannon.  Got it.

JG

Quote from: James Gillen;768029Cyberarm Panther Assault Cannon.  Got it.

JG

Cyberarm Ares Predator, to be more accurate

Quote from: Artifacts of Amber;766869I see Urban magic as , well . . Less magical. Approached from a more scientific point of view I guess. Magic that is integrated with technology and assumed a part of it. Like how mages are also wage slaves for the corps, doing security etc. Not as much mystery and hocus pocus I think.

There was an interesting comic book series called The Red Star (even had a D20 game) where the Russians had magic but it was called protocols which were very technical / scientific in scope, not hocus pocus.
http://theredstar.com/

I am thinking about Corporate Technomancy vs. Wild Magic - aka, there are some spells you can buy over the counter like a Coke, using an trademarked formula, but then there is also the rough, raw street bred stuff.

Quote from: Artifacts of Amber;766869I still want the characters to be heroes but not good guys.

I am approaching this in the GM section and for players through Motivations (aka, almost an alignment like system) where you can absolutely run a campaign of Robin Hood-style activists or even gun-toting social justice warriors. Or the can be in it for the money or other motivation.

I am currently working on a Goblin race-as-class who are in it for the Lulz, but even they are laughing past the graveyard.

I am working on ideas of how you could run troop-style play with each player having several PCs and maybe some PCs just down hang with others or don't go missions that don't support their motivation or beliefs.

Quote from: golan2072;7676491) Coolness tramps EVERYTHING. If you have to choose between a cool but unrealistic element and a mundane but realistic element, choose the cool element every time.

Agreed. Elements have to be engaging and fun. The wow factor is key.

Quote from: golan2072;767649Resist the urge to add smartphones, wi-fi or nanotech, or even a realistic internet. SR4 added many of these elements and thus lost much of the original flavour of the setting.

I don't know how I could pull that off today. Smartphones are so ubiquitous and the internet so ingrained in our culture. It's hard to imagine life without them in 50 years.

But SR4 didn't have the pizzazz of SR1. And I liked SR4.

I am thinking that my retro-whatever timeline can't be too far off. I am thinking my game needs to be around 2029. But I have some ideas to make severe changes to today's tech - aka corporate and governmental control makes tech more limited - aka, imagine the net neutrality debacle taken to its worst conclusions.

Quote from: golan2072;767649Keyboard-sized cyberdecks with physical wire connections, obviously mechanical chrome cyberlimbs and ATM-sized street vid-phone/computer terminals are the way to go.

Yes!

But I am trying to define reasons for their existence.

Quote from: golan2072;7676494) The future history is as imagined in 1989, with strong fantasy elements. Resist the urge to include things too much like the War on Terror or make China a superpower. Japan is the big tech-superpower, and Japanese corps are powerful and numerous; the Soviet Union is probably around, though very stagnated and utterly corrupt, and not in control of Eastern Europe; nation-states fragment and cities gain independence;

I am concerned about stepping on the SR IP. I don't know if yet another "Japan as superpower" setting works in today's market. It's been done repeatedly, but I know its a staple in the genre. Because katanas.

I will skip the WOT as its a pretty dead issue today. The whole middle east in RPGs feels like misery tourism.

I wonder if the BRIC - Brazil, Russia, India, China - would work instead of Japan. In the 80s, Japan seemed so exotic in the USA. Today, its a hard sell with sushi restaurants in every city.

Quote from: golan2072;767649EVERYTHING gets privatized, including the police; the government doesn't really control the vast slums (gangs rule them instead), which are almost post-apocalyptic in nature, and many people there live off the grid.

My idea is that the governments in my setting exist by controlling the military and the infrastructure between the cities, but they're more bureaucracies than real governments, but exist by pitting the corps against one another.

Also, lots of proxy wars.

Quote from: golan2072;767649To get into the right mood for retro-SR, go watch 1980's action movies, especially ones with sci-fi/cyberpunk elements (e.g. Bladerunner, Robocop, Terminator, Escape from NY, Akira, Aliens, Mad Max 2: Road Warrior)

Done! I've also got Nemesis, Strange Days, Johnny Mnemonic, Gunhed and the original Judge Dredd on my radar for re-viewing.

Quote from: golan2072;767649and play early 1990's cyberpunk computer games such as System Shock, Crusader: No Remorse, Quarantine and the SNES and Genesis versions of Shadowrun.

Good idea!

Quote from: Mark Plemmons;767684For me, it's digital tablets instead of spellbooks, wards that are spray painted instead of chalked, etc.

Absolutely! Magic cast when you pick up your reagents in Walmart, not ye olde apothecary.

Quote from: Mark Plemmons;767684Then also adding spells that focus on technomancy, like a cantrip or other low-level spell to charge your phone.

Technomancy is important, but I want to preserve the importance of the hacker/rigger/fixer tech-dude and not allow the mage to just cast their way through issues. It's a balancing act I need to explore more.

Quote from: Spinachcat;768036I don't know how I could pull that off today. Smartphones are so ubiquitous and the internet so ingrained in our culture. It's hard to imagine life without them in 50 years.

Just watch out for the flavour. SR4 had overdone smartphones ("vommlinks") and wi-fi, and EVERYTHING was easily hackable with no clear guidelines for this total hackability - turned SR into something like that recent Watchdogs computer game where you can hack everything.

Smartphones are OK, but you should be very careful with ubiquitous wi-fi and ubiquitous hackability. Maybe just say that people who have important information keep it off the grid in offline servers for safety, so you need an actual hardware link to access it.

Quote from: Spinachcat;768036I am thinking that my retro-whatever timeline can't be too far off. I am thinking my game needs to be around 2029. But I have some ideas to make severe changes to today's tech - aka corporate and governmental control makes tech more limited - aka, imagine the net neutrality debacle taken to its worst conclusions.

Yep. Also possibly a public response to the mass surveillance potential of tech by a culture of keeping less stuff online and turning off wi-fi access in many cases.

Quote from: Spinachcat;768036I am concerned about stepping on the SR IP. I don't know if yet another "Japan as superpower" setting works in today's market. It's been done repeatedly, but I know its a staple in the genre. Because katanas.

Not because of Katanas, but because of Sony/Panasonic/any other high-tech Japanacorp which was the cutting edge in the 1980's. Japanese high-tech and Zaibatsu corporate culture are major cyberpunk tropes.

Quote from: Spinachcat;768036I wonder if the BRIC - Brazil, Russia, India, China - would work instead of Japan. In the 80s, Japan seemed so exotic in the USA. Today, its a hard sell with sushi restaurants in every city.

BRIC are a good option, IMHO, especially as cyberpunk usually follows the trope of "bankrupt/collapsed U.S.". Just extrapolate from the ascendancy of today's China and the American debt issues and you can have the PRC, or even the BRIC as a whole, as substitutes for the more traditional cyberpunk Japan. Maybe also make Korea (united under the South?) a high-tech substitute for Japan, they got the tech and the corps needed for this.

Quote from: golan2072;768050Just watch out for the flavour. SR4 had overdone smartphones ("vommlinks") and wi-fi, and EVERYTHING was easily hackable with no clear guidelines for this total hackability - turned SR into something like that recent Watchdogs computer game where you can hack everything.

You may want to look at SR5 then.  I wouldn't say hackers are less powerful, but those powers are a little better defined and regulated.

JG

Honestly, I believe that Shadowrun works better with its current system than with a d20 system. Partly because of how it adds to the flavor and partly because it allows it to be more free-form and less CR dependent.

Quote from: James Gillen;768348You may want to look at SR5 then.  I wouldn't say hackers are less powerful, but those powers are a little better defined and regulated.

JG

Which is why I would get SR5 if I had $60 to spend on it. SR4 didn't have the cyberdecks that I always felt were what really made Deckers unique.

How much of the Shadowrun Feel can be captured without any of the Shadowrun Setting?  That's interesting, have to think on that a bit.

Spinachcat probably has First Edition right next to him, so I don't have to tell him, but this is for everyone else.

The whole "Old School Shadowrun has tech we've surpassed today" is, well, incorrect.  Shadowrun had wireless phones, the most common were like the Samsung wristphones but they had handheld models, earbud models, etc, and of course, cybernetically implanted models.  Even though you couldn't run the Matrix with them, since they lacked ASIST, those phones could be linked up via fiber to the world's fiber communication network to travel at speeds we can't match.

They also had portable computers, but those were a keyboard with a monitor that rolled out (unless you wanted to go full voice input and output, forgetting monitor) from the keyboard, the printer was basically a roll of paper in a plastic container you could attach directly to the computer.  This computer was full-powered and could handle productivity software, games, and anything you have on a desktop, stored in non-volatile optical chips.  So computer plus monitor plus printer in something the size of a mobile keyboard today.  Not too shabby considering a lot of this technology was already in place by 2029 when the Crash happened and dropped the Internet into the Stone Age.

You could also get data display systems to make 3d holograms, or project the screen onto a flat surface for interaction ala Minority Report or directly into your glasses.

The reason portable phones and computer consumer devices don't stand out in your memory is because they were so ubiquitous they were blasé.  You have a what phone or computer?  Who cares, if you can't deck you're a tortoise, you're Ma and Pa Kettle, not a fashion maven.  This whole 2070 thing of obsessing over the fashion of your commlink, that's so....trite and Jobsian.

I think people need to read these old games from time to time instead of just accepting at face value the "It is known." peddled by people who didn't like those games.

Sorry for falling down the rabbit hole, Spinach, will try to really address your post later.

One of the problems I see is the source of magic.  Shadowrun weaved cyberpunk into fantasy via the Earthdawn cosmology and the cycle of magic.  Why are magical beings from our myths reappearing?  Because this happened before, so it's a case of things returning rather then being created (of course there is plenty of evidence for alternate theories because things weren't exactly the same, but they never got to explore that fully before FASA folded.)

How the magic works, and how people respond to it, will help to give you the Shadowrun feel.  40 years after the Awakening, there is still much hostility and prejudice against the Awakened.  Corporations and governments use magic because they need to.  A lot of people are "Yeah Magic!" or "Yeah Cybertech!" but there are also a lot of people who are fine with humanity just the way it is.  

That constant societal friction of the old game was changed.  Wide-eyed acceptance of the alien is one of the transhumanist tropes introduced into 4th and one of the reasons why it seems different.  Most "Urban Fantasy" tends to be somewhat transhumanist, if you will, from a magical perspective as well.

Of course there are things like the Pr0n. GunPr0n, CarPr0n, CyberPr0n, ClothesPr0n, lists and lists of way to be cool, because when nothing really matters because there's no way to really beat the system, all that matters is what you buy.  Nightmare Pod-People consumerism at it's worst, and the counter-cultural PCs who do the same thing only differently.

None of that, however, is unique to Shadowrun, that's any Cyberpunk game.  Magic and it's expression, I'm convinced, is the key to the Shadowrun Feel.

The other major point to hit is decking.  Just like for some people Vancian casting, or hit points or armor class is "D&D", Gibsonian Cyberspace is "Shadowrun".

The thing that makes Shadowrun decking "decking" is that it isn't like our computing.  It'd not supposed to be.  Our way of computing got proven out of date and pathetically unequipped to deal with the Crash Virus.  So, we redid it all, using all optical technology with an eye towards primarily not allowing the Crash Virus to kill the world again as well as protect systems from the newest type of hacker, the Cyberlinked Decker.

The problem is, that's a very specific historical path, but the key to the feel is "this is not your or your grandchild's computer".  The nature of decking, of the consensual hallucination of the Matrix is as alien to the thought process of someone who's never experienced it, as magic is.

So make it alien.  Make it different.  It's not Linux.  Just because it looks like a keyboard doesn't mean it's a Commodore 64, that Sony consumer cyberdeck you pick up at Nibble and Bytes in 2050 could destroy the entire internet as we know it with script kiddie programs some kid in high school made.  Maybe optical chips allow us to store information as Trinary or Trinary with additional quantum states the Big Brains are always yapping about, quarks and shit.  Go wild, and if someone says "that can't happen" put an Ares Predator to their head and tell 'em to Frag Off!

Cyberware - yeah you need lots and it needs to be cool, but again it needs to be alienating in some way.  Shadowrun Cyberware has a cost, one you don't find out about usually until it's way too far to return.  A guy with maximum Delta Cyberware isn't quite Superman, but he is way faster then you, he can leap small buildings in a single bound, and he's more powerful then your average commuter car probably.  When your mage or shaman looks at him, he looks dead, he can't be magically healed, and something that drains life force, will kill him in a fraction of the time it would a normal person.

He also can't go into any place normal people hang out unless he's a corporate agent, and if he ever gets caught by police, they're gonna rip that stuff out of him and toss him in jail for the rest of his life (or do the Snake Plisskin to him and add him to the payroll).

So magic, and decking - Alien and truly unfathomable to those who can't do it.
Cyberware - More than human but less then human as well.

Players might be cool, but they are the quintessential Outsiders, even when it may look like they are living on the inside.

It's not really pleasing to say this, but after writing the above post, another aspect of the Shadowrun Feel is, like all the games of the 90's, what people would probably call today Special Snowflakeism.

WoD, Deadlands, Shadowrun, they are filled not with classical heroes, but still people who are different than the norm.  Even your bog-standard "fighter" has become more machine then man.  You mages are just born different, and the deckers and riggers are what they are, because they experience a different reality, perhaps one they prefer to the one everyone else lives in.

So how you set the characters up, what do they do, what is their role and function in society or outside of it, will go a long way to getting that SR feel without the IP.

In the end though, you're right to a certain degree, Shadowrun is more then the sum of it's parts, and those parts include the IP, but I think you can get close.

You might want to take a look at Daddy Warpig's Shadowrun analogue, or even Trollman's for comparisons.

Sure, SR2 (I never had SR1) had cellphones and portable computers, but they were used to make calls (cellphones) or do very rudimentary computer work. They weren't the tools of deckers, or of any serious computer user. And they weren't smartphones, just simple cellphones. Anyone making high-end use of computers used ASIST. SR4 came and gave everyone cheap, handheld smartphones ("commlinks") which could hack everything, made the C-Deck redundant and made everything accessible by wi-fi. Which kills the whole SR decking theme and turns it into Watchdogs (a recent computer game where you can hack practically everything with your smartphone).

OH, this is totally a stylistic thing, but in-game documents.  Shadowland.
Every book other then the rulebook was formatted like some document or set of articles compiled and uploaded to the Shadowland network and commented on characters in the setting.

Un-fucking believably immersive.  If you can nail that, people will think Shadowrun no matter what the IP is.  I know 4th players who tuned out simply due to the Shadowtalk being so lame, although I luvs me some Turbo Bunny.

To go along with that, Shadowbeat. Neo-Anarchist's Guide to Real Life.  Stuff that affects runners, but also everyone else as it details the weird things about the setting.  The USA is now 7 nations, what the hell happens to the NFL?  Even if you don't list all the teams or have paragraphs explaining it, have people refer to teams not existing now, or have stuff pop up in art and ads like NERPS or what GW did with Dark Future.  There's more flavor and soul stuffed into that friggin' carwars game then half the 4th splats.

I dunno if this is something you're thinking of publishing or not.

Quote from: golan2072;768696Sure, SR2 (I never had SR1) had cellphones and portable computers, but they were used to make calls (cellphones) or do very rudimentary computer work. They weren't the tools of deckers, or of any serious computer user. And they weren't smartphones, just simple cellphones. Anyone making high-end use of computers used ASIST. SR4 came and gave everyone cheap, handheld smartphones ("commlinks") which could hack everything, made the C-Deck redundant and made everything accessible by wi-fi. Which kills the whole SR decking theme and turns it into Watchdogs (a recent computer game where you can hack practically everything with your smartphone).

Yeah, but that's kinda the point, our phones really aren't smart, they're ridonkulously stupid compared to a real computer.  They're just "smarter" then a Ma Bell phone due to the primitive apps that run on them, all of which are useless to someone in 2050 because they don't need fake apps on their phone, or tablet that they carry around with them.  Legal Matrix access is everywhere.  It's only decking that requires ASIST, and technically it doesn't need ASIST either.

The whole commlink thing was something I thought was just not...well thought out.  Mitsuhama, which in 2050 probably has a GDP greater then any three nations in 2000,  is going to allow the Watchdogs guy to access it's systems.  Umm. No.  Somehow two global matrix security crashes and the takeover of an arcology by an AI have taught the world that we need to make our global communications network much less safe by having our entire society's infrastructure, including things that don't need them, like cybernetic systems, open to wireless communication.

Why does 4th feel different?  That's another big one right there.

Quote from: golan2072Keyboard-sized cyberdecks with physical wire connections, obviously mechanical chrome cyberlimbs and ATM-sized street vid-phone/computer terminals are the way to go.

Quote from: Spinachcat;768036Yes!

But I am trying to define reasons for their existence.

You make me think of the newer Battlestar Galactica and the last few Star Trek: Enterprise novels that focused on the Romulan War (no wait, I'm going somewhere with this).

To 'explain' why the prequel series has better special effects than the original ST series, the novels gave the Romulans the ability to electronically hijack starships. This could be avoided by sort of going backward with tech - so it's why the experimental NX has digital screens and touchpads, and the later NCC has flip switches and buttons.

You can do the same thing with magic. Maybe older tech is just more resistant to magic. For example, a magical 'atmosphere' messes with wireless signals, so you have to physically jack in.

Quote from: Spinachcat;768036Technomancy is important, but I want to preserve the importance of the hacker/rigger/fixer tech-dude and not allow the mage to just cast their way through issues. It's a balancing act I need to explore more.

Yeah, you have to set clear boundaries between what the tech PCs can do vs the magic PCs.

The way I handled it (in Corporia, though, not SR) was so Hackers can hack and deal with tech but not cast magic, and the sole technomancy 'school' mostly focuses on modifying existing tech - charging dead batteries, keeping a gun from jamming, improving weapon damage, etc.

However, due to various points of the system and setting, I didn't include an obvious rigger/fixer archetype, though the skills are there if someone wants to create one. So that'll make a big difference.

Quote from: Spinachcat;768036I am thinking about Corporate Technomancy vs. Wild Magic - aka, there are some spells you can buy over the counter like a Coke, using an trademarked formula, but then there is also the rough, raw street bred stuff.

Cool idea!