Towards a more inclusive Sword & Sorcery

[Brad]

Wakanda is extremely isolationist, but it isn't ethnonationalist. At most, it is a parallel to Japan.

They're not racist, they're just xenophobic! Like, what's the functional difference? How does this differ from people living in isolated rural communities who don't want a bunch of "dirty foreigners" moving into their territory?

That's quite the sharp knife you have there being able to split a gnat's cunt hair...

ALSO, in Ultimates, Captain America is literally the only white man allowed in Wakanda because he pretty much single-handedly saved the country from an alien invasion. "Yeah, but it has nothing to do with race!" Okay, he's still the token white guy. The let in Riri Williams, who is an outsider...see how your bullshit fails just based on the actual comics?

[jhkim]

They're not racist, they're just xenophobic! Like, what's the functional difference? How does this differ from people living in isolated rural communities who don't want a bunch of "dirty foreigners" moving into their territory?

That's quite the sharp knife you have there being able to split a gnat's cunt hair...

ALSO, in Ultimates, Captain America is literally the only white man allowed in Wakanda because he pretty much single-handedly saved the country from an alien invasion. "Yeah, but it has nothing to do with race!" Okay, he's still the token white guy. The let in Riri Williams, who is an outsider...see how your bullshit fails just based on the actual comics?

The functional difference is that it doesn't matter if you're a black outsider or a white outsider. They will accept white heroes like the Fantastic Four just as much as black heroes like Riri Williams.

---

The problem with comics is that there are so many version under so many writers, it is impossible to say anything for certain. I haven't read all the comics, and never read when Riri Williams was let in. So there may have been some comics where Wakanda was portrayed as racially biased. Maybe under that writer, Wakanda was racially biased.

I can say Wakanda wasn't racially biased when it was introduced with the Fantastic Four - or under the 1990s to early 2000s run under Christopher Priest, or in the other scattered collections that I've read.

It's easier to talk about the MCU because it's a much more limited set of canon. In the MCU, the only person they let in - black or white - is Bucky Barnes, who is white. They allow Riri Williams in temporarily only in the same way that they let in Everett Ross, and in both cases, they talk about possibly killing them.

[Brad]

The functional difference is that it doesn't matter if you're a black outsider or a white outsider. They will accept white heroes like the Fantastic Four just as much as black heroes like Riri Williams.

So, again, how does this differ from my real life example in any way?

[oggsmash]

 Do you not realize the irony in saying Wakanda is not racist and more akin to Japan?  LMAO. 

[Brad]

Do you not realize the irony in saying Wakanda is not racist and more akin to Japan?  LMAO.

LOOK, it's only a racist ethnostate if it's white people doing it. Asians, blacks, etc., doesn't count. I mean he's literally saying that under the guise of "outsiders", and refuses to address my own example of small communities that don't want outsiders, but we all know he has a problem with it because they're dumbass rednecks.

[Thorn Drumheller]

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/oliverbrackenbury/new-edge-sword-and-sorcery-magazine?ref=aaa0g1

better hurry, you can help fund it with a coupla days to go.

[jhkim]

Do you not realize the irony in saying Wakanda is not racist and more akin to Japan?  LMAO.

LOOK, it's only a racist ethnostate if it's white people doing it. Asians, blacks, etc., doesn't count. I mean he's literally saying that under the guise of "outsiders", and refuses to address my own example of small communities that don't want outsiders, but we all know he has a problem with it because they're dumbass rednecks.

Japan has plenty of racist *people*, just like many other countries. It also has a past that is full of racism and colonialism. I hate the racism of the Japanese. As a Korean, my father spent his childhood under Japanese racist oppression. However, he also faced plenty of racism from white people when he emigrated to the U.S. The current laws of Japan are neutral with respect to race, so I would not call it an ethnostate.

Specifying a nameless hypothetical community that doesn't want outsiders isn't useful to compare, since it is hypothetical. Let's take a specific example of a small white community that doesn't want outsiders -- say Brigadoon from the 1947 musical. As portrayed, it's much like Wakanda in that it is intentionally keeping itself secret and hiding from the outside world, like Wakanda has traditionally done. My son was in a high school production of Brigadoon 7 years ago, and I didn't have any condemnation of the play for its racism, nor would I call Brigadoon a racist ethnostate.

I wouldn't claim that the people of Brigadoon are free of racism. However, their drive to be isolated from the outside world is not inherently a racist principle -- and I wouldn't condemn the play as racist as a result.

Would either of you (Brad or oggsmash) call Brigadoon a racist white ethnostate? If not, can you explain why?

[~~]

Mmmmmm delicious utopias! Please sir, can I have some more?

[oggsmash]

  Korea has a looong history of racism regarding Japan as well, I understand being extra salty about the last 100 years considering the ass kicking the Japanese gave them though.  Saying Japan is neutral when it is very very hard to immigrate there and become a citizen is an out right lie.  If we use the metric of the USA regarding immigration Japan, Korea and China are all big time ethnostates. 

[oggsmash]

  But when the creator of Dilbert turns out to be uber racist after reading a poll....who isnt?

[oggsmash]

  Alot of historical hard feelings and mistreatment also emerge from essentially a group getting their asses kicked by another group.   All the salt towards white people is from both their past behavior and being just too good at kicking asses.   Modern day the salty folk are pushing for changes socially and societally that in the past requires an actual fight/war.   My advice as always is be careful how hard one pushes, because at some point the changes they want may end up requiring an actual fight....and historically the people being pushed are pretty good at fighting.

[Brad]

Japan has plenty of racist *people*, just like many other countries. It also has a past that is full of racism and colonialism. I hate the racism of the Japanese. As a Korean, my father spent his childhood under Japanese racist oppression. However, he also faced plenty of racism from white people when he emigrated to the U.S. The current laws of Japan are neutral with respect to race, so I would not call it an ethnostate.

Specifying a nameless hypothetical community that doesn't want outsiders isn't useful to compare, since it is hypothetical. Let's take a specific example of a small white community that doesn't want outsiders -- say Brigadoon from the 1947 musical. As portrayed, it's much like Wakanda in that it is intentionally keeping itself secret and hiding from the outside world, like Wakanda has traditionally done. My son was in a high school production of Brigadoon 7 years ago, and I didn't have any condemnation of the play for its racism, nor would I call Brigadoon a racist ethnostate.

I wouldn't claim that the people of Brigadoon are free of racism. However, their drive to be isolated from the outside world is not inherently a racist principle -- and I wouldn't condemn the play as racist as a result.

Would either of you (Brad or oggsmash) call Brigadoon a racist white ethnostate? If not, can you explain why?

Koreans are the most racist people on Earth in my experience, so let's not pretend the Japanese are somehow worse. That said, I have a friend who moved to Japan years ago to open his own videogame company and speaks fluent Japanese, married a Japanese girl. It's my understanding he can never become a Japanese citizen, even now, because he's a white dude. So the statement "the current laws of Japan are neutral with respect to race" doesn't even make any sense. He'll always be an outsider and second-class member of Japanese society, regardless of what he does.

RE: hypotheticals, how about instead of some dumbass play we use real-life examples? Japan: de facto ethnostate. Maine: de factor ethno-"state". 94% white people. The first one is fine, the second one is problematic for a lot of people. Why? Because there are too many white people living in Maine?

Bringing up some dumb play when plenty of real-world examples exist is just disingenuous.

[~~]

  Korea has a looong history of racism regarding Japan as well, I understand being extra salty about the last 100 years considering the ass kicking the Japanese gave them though.  Saying Japan is neutral when it is very very hard to immigrate there and become a citizen is an out right lie.  If we use the metric of the USA regarding immigration Japan, Korea and China are all big time ethnostates.

  Alot of historical hard feelings and mistreatment also emerge from essentially a group getting their asses kicked by another group.   All the salt towards white people is from both their past behavior and being just too good at kicking asses.   Modern day the salty folk are pushing for changes socially and societally that in the past requires an actual fight/war.   My advice as always is be careful how hard one pushes, because at some point the changes they want may end up requiring an actual fight....and historically the people being pushed are pretty good at fighting.

Heroism is too right-wing for our post-revolutionary world, thou shalt mobishly bitch thine way into the finest yonder establishment.

Even if yellows suck at war relative to whites (because Genghis Khan is a lie), the entire framing is "live like your entire culture is a retarded victim of tyranny" with a delusion that there are never whites that will ever seek mutual peace under any circumstances.

[jhkim]

oggsmash, you haven't answered my question about Brigadoon. Like Wakanda, it is a fictional community that is strongly isolationist. The question is, does their isolationism inherently mean that they should both be considered racial ethno-states?

  Korea has a looong history of racism regarding Japan as well, I understand being extra salty about the last 100 years considering the ass kicking the Japanese gave them though.  Saying Japan is neutral when it is very very hard to immigrate there and become a citizen is an out right lie.  If we use the metric of the USA regarding immigration Japan, Korea and China are all big time ethnostates.

I agree that Korea and Japan have lots of racism, but I disagree about how you come to that conclusion. It seems to me that you are coming from a position that:

1) Low immigration or desire for less immigration is proof of racism

and/or

2) Less racial diversity is proof of racism


To me, the proof of racial discrimination is in actual attitudes over race and how racial minorities are treated. I hear a lot about how ethnic Korean citizens of Japan (Zainichi Koreans) suffer racial discrimination in the present. In South Korea, I hear about how black kids face discrimination growing up - highlighted by Korean-American football star Hines Ward - as well as non-white foreign workers. I would want both countries to do more to fight racism both legally and culturally.

That's the real problem, and it could be true regardless about how common the racial minority is or the level of immigration.

---

This is relevant because within the U.S., I don't think those two assumptions apply either. The least diverse state in the U.S. is Maine at 94% white, but I don't think that means it is the most racist state. My sister lives in Maine, and from her experience, while racism is present, it isn't the worst.

Similarly, if someone advocates for less immigration, I don't consider that proof that they are racist. I'd have to actually talk to the person and see how they feel about other races. There are factors other than race that are relevant to immigration. For example, I'd note that Japan has 10 times the population density of the U.S., and South Korean has 15 times the population density. Both rely heavily on imported food for their overpopulation. That will factor into what level of immigration they want.

[~~]

Japanese think that the Koreans should be living in Korea. Would it be wrong for Koreans to think that Japanese should live in Japan and not Korea?

"Don't you dare get comfortable here, this is our home!"