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Author Topic: Towards a more inclusive Sword & Sorcery  (Read 5459 times)

Stephen Tannhauser

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Re: Towards a more inclusive Sword & Sorcery
« Reply #30 on: October 21, 2022, 04:01:10 PM »
These are all actually the same genre: dark/gritty fantasy intended to rebel against the standard Arthurian/Tolkienesque romantic fantasy clichés.

Well, much of S&S's classic stuff predates Tolkien, and Tolkien himself was in his own way rebelling against classical romance tropes by putting the solidly English lower-/middle-class hobbits front and centre as fish-out-of-water heroes. But you're right, it's always possible to deconstruct genre labels by pointing out that the things they differentiate between usually have more in common than not.

I'm not opposed in principle to the idea that a particular subgenre can get stale and that deliberately going beyond its stereotypical tropes can reinvigorate it. I just dislike the marketing approach which explicitly politicizes that process.
Better to keep silent and be thought a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt. -- Mark Twain

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jhkim

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Re: Towards a more inclusive Sword & Sorcery
« Reply #31 on: October 24, 2022, 02:53:40 AM »
I'm not opposed in principle to the idea that a particular subgenre can get stale and that deliberately going beyond its stereotypical tropes can reinvigorate it. I just dislike the marketing approach which explicitly politicizes that process.

Yeah, this sucks. What's worse in some ways is that I suspect that in the current environment, politicized marketing is far more successful than non-politicized marketing. So maybe he's not wrong in a business sense, but it still sucks and I dislike it.

BoxCrayonTales

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Re: Towards a more inclusive Sword & Sorcery
« Reply #32 on: October 24, 2022, 09:36:19 AM »
Yeah. E.g. I see stuff being advertised as New Weird and Slipstream, which are meaningless labels to me. Wikipedia's description is just meaningless word salad.

Visitor Q

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Re: Towards a more inclusive Sword & Sorcery
« Reply #33 on: November 03, 2022, 02:08:32 PM »
I think all of this misses the point that Sword and Sorcery (which I love) is generally quite a cyncial apolitical genre focusing on individuals who cleave their own path regardless of the hardships or hypocrisy the world presents them. The characteristics of the protagonists is secondary to their attitude.

jhkim

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Re: Towards a more inclusive Sword & Sorcery
« Reply #34 on: November 11, 2022, 02:02:40 PM »
I think all of this misses the point that Sword and Sorcery (which I love) is generally quite a cyncial apolitical genre focusing on individuals who cleave their own path regardless of the hardships or hypocrisy the world presents them. The characteristics of the protagonists is secondary to their attitude.

Regarding Sword & Sorcery, there was some interesting discussion about the Imaro books in a thread on the "Other Games" forum that had cross-over with this topic.

https://www.therpgsite.com/other-games/aragorn-race-swapped-what-the-literal-fuck/msg1233081/#msg1233081

The Imaro books are often classified as the progenitors of "Sword & Soul" which is sometimes considered distinct from Sword & Sorcery, or alternately a subgenre. I think Imaro exemplifies the individualist attitude of Sword & Sorcery protagonists.

Still, I also think that if I was pitching a game in the world of Imaro, I would probably qualify it more than generic Sword & Sorcery.

The Spaniard

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Re: Towards a more inclusive Sword & Sorcery
« Reply #35 on: November 12, 2022, 07:53:12 AM »
Yea, gonna rush right out and get this one...  Inclusive to these dummies really means Exclusive, spin it as they might.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2022, 07:55:17 AM by The Spaniard »

Trond

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Re: Towards a more inclusive Sword & Sorcery
« Reply #36 on: November 17, 2022, 04:38:12 PM »
Yea, gonna rush right out and get this one...  Inclusive to these dummies really means Exclusive, spin it as they might.

Just like "diverse". As in "we are only hiring diverse employees". What it really means is "not white men".

Thorn Drumheller

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Re: Towards a more inclusive Sword & Sorcery
« Reply #37 on: November 27, 2022, 12:55:10 PM »
.......
Regarding Sword & Sorcery, there was some interesting discussion about the Imaro books in a thread on the "Other Games" forum that had cross-over with this topic.

https://www.therpgsite.com/other-games/aragorn-race-swapped-what-the-literal-fuck/msg1233081/#msg1233081

The Imaro books are often classified as the progenitors of "Sword & Soul" which is sometimes considered distinct from Sword & Sorcery, or alternately a subgenre. I think Imaro exemplifies the individualist attitude of Sword & Sorcery protagonists.

Still, I also think that if I was pitching a game in the world of Imaro, I would probably qualify it more than generic Sword & Sorcery.

LOL. I was thinking of Imaro. What if a studio decided to option the right to a movie? Could I as a white guy go, "You know, I don't feel like I'm represented in this film (I mean I'm sure white man is the bad guy but I want good guys too). Could we cast some white people? Or the best actor for the Imaro role is a white guy, let's cast him."

You know how that would turn out.
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Thorn Drumheller

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Re: Towards a more inclusive Sword & Sorcery
« Reply #38 on: November 27, 2022, 12:55:40 PM »
Yea, gonna rush right out and get this one...  Inclusive to these dummies really means Exclusive, spin it as they might.

Just like "diverse". As in "we are only hiring diverse employees". What it really means is "not white men".

Ding, ding, ding....we have a winner
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jhkim

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Re: Towards a more inclusive Sword & Sorcery
« Reply #39 on: November 27, 2022, 11:38:48 PM »
Regarding Sword & Sorcery, there was some interesting discussion about the Imaro books in a thread on the "Other Games" forum that had cross-over with this topic.

https://www.therpgsite.com/other-games/aragorn-race-swapped-what-the-literal-fuck/msg1233081/#msg1233081

The Imaro books are often classified as the progenitors of "Sword & Soul" which is sometimes considered distinct from Sword & Sorcery, or alternately a subgenre. I think Imaro exemplifies the individualist attitude of Sword & Sorcery protagonists.

Still, I also think that if I was pitching a game in the world of Imaro, I would probably qualify it more than generic Sword & Sorcery.

LOL. I was thinking of Imaro. What if a studio decided to option the right to a movie? Could I as a white guy go, "You know, I don't feel like I'm represented in this film (I mean I'm sure white man is the bad guy but I want good guys too). Could we cast some white people? Or the best actor for the Imaro role is a white guy, let's cast him."

There *was* a movie made of a Charles Saunders story, as I found out in that thread. It wasn't a story about Imaro, but it was still a Saunders fantasy story about Africans -- and the producers made it with an all-white cast. The movie was called "Amazons".

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0090627/

Saunders himself had to work on the script.

That's been quite common in the history of Hollywood. In practice, almost everyone only cares about cross-racial casting if it's in a direction they don't like. What they really care about is perceived bias against their preferred demographic. I think the history of Hollywood is quite clear in its biases.

rpgSeeker

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Re: Towards a more inclusive Sword & Sorcery
« Reply #40 on: November 29, 2022, 09:29:24 AM »
Yea, gonna rush right out and get this one...  Inclusive to these dummies really means Exclusive, spin it as they might.

Just like "diverse". As in "we are only hiring diverse employees". What it really means is "not white men".

No.

If someone who wants to hire 'diverse' has a choice between a female black Christian and a white male woke progressive, they will pick the latter. It's about ideological homogeneity. What hiring 'diverse' really means is hiring 'woke'.

wmarshal

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Re: Towards a more inclusive Sword & Sorcery
« Reply #41 on: November 29, 2022, 10:59:51 AM »
Yea, gonna rush right out and get this one...  Inclusive to these dummies really means Exclusive, spin it as they might.

Just like "diverse". As in "we are only hiring diverse employees". What it really means is "not white men".

No.

If someone who wants to hire 'diverse' has a choice between a female black Christian and a white male woke progressive, they will pick the latter. It's about ideological homogeneity. What hiring 'diverse' really means is hiring 'woke'.
Yes, it’s about ideology, not really identity. Identity politics is a tool used by the Woke to atomize the public. It’s just a means to an end.

psiconauta_retro

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Re: Towards a more inclusive Sword & Sorcery
« Reply #42 on: December 06, 2022, 11:33:40 PM »
Yea, gonna rush right out and get this one...  Inclusive to these dummies really means Exclusive, spin it as they might.

Just like "diverse". As in "we are only hiring diverse employees". What it really means is "not white men".

No.

If someone who wants to hire 'diverse' has a choice between a female black Christian and a white male woke progressive, they will pick the latter. It's about ideological homogeneity. What hiring 'diverse' really means is hiring 'woke'.
Yes, it’s about ideology, not really identity. Identity politics is a tool used by the Woke to atomize the public. It’s just a means to an end.

This thesis of how this is not about being anti-white but being pro-woke is enlightening, I had not thought about that.

Personally I think this woke magazine is destined to fail, but lets see if they get to make any money while pressing on their woke ideology.

Did anybody read their #0 issue? Is it any good? At this point I would rather not put my own personal time to check it out without having seen any review here.

Jam The MF

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Re: Towards a more inclusive Sword & Sorcery
« Reply #43 on: December 07, 2022, 01:21:43 AM »
Oh, yes, finally! The messiah the Sword & Sorcery genre has been waiting for!

Ha!!!
I was Banned from RPG.net a long time ago, for Having Common Sense.

BoxCrayonTales

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Re: Towards a more inclusive Sword & Sorcery
« Reply #44 on: December 07, 2022, 12:35:14 PM »
Regarding Sword & Sorcery, there was some interesting discussion about the Imaro books in a thread on the "Other Games" forum that had cross-over with this topic.

https://www.therpgsite.com/other-games/aragorn-race-swapped-what-the-literal-fuck/msg1233081/#msg1233081

The Imaro books are often classified as the progenitors of "Sword & Soul" which is sometimes considered distinct from Sword & Sorcery, or alternately a subgenre. I think Imaro exemplifies the individualist attitude of Sword & Sorcery protagonists.

Still, I also think that if I was pitching a game in the world of Imaro, I would probably qualify it more than generic Sword & Sorcery.

LOL. I was thinking of Imaro. What if a studio decided to option the right to a movie? Could I as a white guy go, "You know, I don't feel like I'm represented in this film (I mean I'm sure white man is the bad guy but I want good guys too). Could we cast some white people? Or the best actor for the Imaro role is a white guy, let's cast him."

There *was* a movie made of a Charles Saunders story, as I found out in that thread. It wasn't a story about Imaro, but it was still a Saunders fantasy story about Africans -- and the producers made it with an all-white cast. The movie was called "Amazons".

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0090627/

Saunders himself had to work on the script.

That's been quite common in the history of Hollywood. In practice, almost everyone only cares about cross-racial casting if it's in a direction they don't like. What they really care about is perceived bias against their preferred demographic. I think the history of Hollywood is quite clear in its biases.
Tvtropes has a helpful list of examples: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RaceLift