RPGnet's decay (TBP madness)

[Eirikrautha]

See, you need to have the courage of your convictions.  You need to be able to say, "That's not what I meant, and you're a disingenuous twat for taking it that way.  It shows that you are the warped one!" 

Well that's precisely what I did before I was banned.

Because what has your mealy-mouthed rationalizations gotten you?  Not forgiveness.  Not understanding.  Just discarded, so that everyone else can make sure their on the "right" side of this.  You don't defend; you push right through and keep doing what you want.  The worst thing you can do is surrender (a tough lesson for a Frenchman, but, hey, everyone can learn)...

For the record, I fail to see how I "surrendered" to anything.

Plus: no need to move on to personal insults. The slur about my nationality is especially pathetic  - and, incidentally, shows how ignorant you are about history but I won't bother trying to "rationalize" anything with you - I'll leave you with your own crass stupidity, pauvre imbécile.

Thanks to all those of you who showed support. I'm off.

Step one: Thicker skin.  That's why you will fail.  If you're worried about what they, or I, say, you've already lost.  Coming here to "explain" in the desperate attempt to sway the opinions of those who don't care is foolishness.   The jhkim-types don't care; you're just a means to an end.  The rest of us don't care; if you make a good game, we'll play it.  Trying to make everyone "understand" is a waste of time.   So toughen up.

[Ghostmaker]

See, you need to have the courage of your convictions.  You need to be able to say, "That's not what I meant, and you're a disingenuous twat for taking it that way.  It shows that you are the warped one!" 

Well that's precisely what I did before I was banned.

Because what has your mealy-mouthed rationalizations gotten you?  Not forgiveness.  Not understanding.  Just discarded, so that everyone else can make sure their on the "right" side of this.  You don't defend; you push right through and keep doing what you want.  The worst thing you can do is surrender (a tough lesson for a Frenchman, but, hey, everyone can learn)...

For the record, I fail to see how I "surrendered" to anything.

Plus: no need to move on to personal insults. The slur about my nationality is especially pathetic  - and, incidentally, shows how ignorant you are about history but I won't bother trying to "rationalize" anything with you - I'll leave you with your own crass stupidity, pauvre imbécile.

Thanks to all those of you who showed support. I'm off.

Step one: Thicker skin.  That's why you will fail.  If you're worried about what they, or I, say, you've already lost.  Coming here to "explain" in the desperate attempt to sway the opinions of those who don't care is foolishness.   The jhkim-types don't care; you're just a means to an end.  The rest of us don't care; if you make a good game, we'll play it.  Trying to make everyone "understand" is a waste of time.   So toughen up.

" If you're worried about what they, or I, say, you've already lost."

...in a business where word of mouth is so important? I agree he needs to not let it get to him personally, but go run that line past Macris or Zak S and see what their reaction is.

On a side note, consider this: TBP is probably considered 'the' place for interaction with others regarding RPGs. This is why I despise it so, because of the example it sets.

[Stephen Tannhauser]

See, you need to have the courage of your convictions.  You need to be able to say, "That's not what I meant, and you're a disingenuous twat for taking it that way.  It shows that you are the warped one!" 

Well that's precisely what I did before I was banned.

This is the fundamental problem. Against an individual objector who genuinely, if mistakenly, thought the game's title might suggest the celebration of troublesome historical events, this kind of reproof might be appropriate and effective.

Unfortunately, the mod-enforced rules of TBP's discourse (to use the academic terminology) explicitly define claims of intersectionality-based offenses to be off limits from dismissal or disregard: the one thing you cannot say to someone who claims offense is, "That's not what I meant, and it's your problem if you took it that way; I'm not happy you're offended, but I'm not responsible for your feelings if you choose to be unreasonable." The point of a "safe space" is that people are forced to take responsibility for others' feelings if they want to participate in it, and the point of "social justice" is that the privileged don't get to decide what constitutes "reasonable" for the disadvantaged.

Argument has little weight with this level of epistemic closure -- not none, but seldom enough to be worth the effort. Better to demonstrate the courage of one's convictions by simply disengaging and building one's own audience elsewhere, I think.

[Ghostmaker]

Get ready for your closeup, wmarshal.

https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/wmarshal-receives-a-%F0%9F%94%B4-warning-thread-ban-arguing-in-bad-faith.899599/

There's the magic words: further sanctions pending.

Eirikrautha, you still think Minotaurians should've stuck it out in that fucking shitheap? Fuck no. Thicker skin won't save you from their rainbow-hued banhammers.

[wmarshal]

Get ready for your closeup, wmarshal.

https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/wmarshal-receives-a-%F0%9F%94%B4-warning-thread-ban-arguing-in-bad-faith.899599/

There's the magic words: further sanctions pending.

Eirikrautha, you still think Minotaurians should've stuck it out in that fucking shitheap? Fuck no. Thicker skin won't save you from their rainbow-hued banhammers.

It's always been a question of when, not if. However, claiming I was arguing in bad faith when I was correctly pointing out that the US is a republic, and legitimately engaging with the other posters is more ridiculous than I expected. I was noting that claiming that the US not a republic is flatly incorrect. I was noting that to claim that the "US is a republic" is a dog whistle is also a dumb argument. I was hoping that some of them would make better arguments, and I think some of them started to, but "bad faith" can be claimed against any argument the TBP mods don't like it seems. If stating the fact that the US is a republic gets me permabanned I'll wear that permaban with honor.

[Shasarak]

Hello everyone.

I'm Olivier Legrand (author of CRUSADERS) and, while I have no intention of actively joining this discussion, I would like to clarify a few things - not regarding my completely groundless ban from RPGnet (which has left me completely dejected and is a fine example of self-righteous hypocrisy, especially considering the fact that the "mod posting as user" who gratuitously attacked me got scott-free - and BTW the photo from the Chinese Cultural Revolution is indeed quite a fitting reference...) but about my choice of title for the game.

Just as long as we can still use your game to roleplay the taking back of the Holy land then its all good.

[wmarshal]

So after 2 pages of discussion on what is the nature of a republic, where some of the users started to reply with different ways that a republic could function, acknowledging that the US is a republic and not trying to support the fiction that somehow the US is not a republic, the mod shuts down all discussion about republics in the thread as a tangent. I think the mod dislikes the discussion that followed because it is evidence I was not arguing in bad faith, but had engaged the posters constructively even if there would be some disagreements between myself and the other posters if I was allowed to post further in the thread. The nature of US gorvernance is hardly a great tangent away from a discussion on how voting is being handled in Wisconsin.

I think it reflects how TBP desperately needs discussions to be echo chambers. We don't need people to seriously think on these topics, and practice forming useful arguments. We need people to easily go "Ra! Ra!" for their side, and engage in the Two Minutes of Hate at the drop of a hat.

[Eirikrautha]

Get ready for your closeup, wmarshal.

https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/wmarshal-receives-a-%F0%9F%94%B4-warning-thread-ban-arguing-in-bad-faith.899599/

There's the magic words: further sanctions pending.

Eirikrautha, you still think Minotaurians should've stuck it out in that fucking shitheap? Fuck no. Thicker skin won't save you from their rainbow-hued banhammers.

I never said he should have stuck it out.  In fact, my statement was the exact opposite.  He should have told them they were morons and wrong and then forgotten the whole place.  Not come to this site and try to whine out an explanation in the hopes that some of the posters there would read it here ("oh, senpai kim, please know I didn't mean it").  Fuck that noise.  It's bad enough that he felt the need to explain to people who don't care.  It's worse that, since he's banned there, he comes here to try and explain it to them.  It's pathetic...

Edit: And note he started his whole whine with the statement that he wasn't joining the discussion here.  He isn't interested in what we think about the name.  He's just hoping that some of the TBP crew will see this and forgive him.  That's superhero-level cuck right there...

[GeekyBugle]

Get ready for your closeup, wmarshal.

https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/wmarshal-receives-a-%F0%9F%94%B4-warning-thread-ban-arguing-in-bad-faith.899599/

There's the magic words: further sanctions pending.

Eirikrautha, you still think Minotaurians should've stuck it out in that fucking shitheap? Fuck no. Thicker skin won't save you from their rainbow-hued banhammers.

I never said he should have stuck it out.  In fact, my statement was the exact opposite.  He should have told them they were morons and wrong and then forgotten the whole place.  Not come to this site and try to whine out an explanation in the hopes that some of the posters there would read it here ("oh, senpai kim, please know I didn't mean it").  Fuck that noise.  It's bad enough that he felt the need to explain to people who don't care.  It's worse that, since he's banned there, he comes here to try and explain it to them.  It's pathetic...

Edit: And note he started his whole whine with the statement that he wasn't joining the discussion here.  He isn't interested in what we think about the name.  He's just hoping that some of the TBP crew will see this and forgive him.  That's superhero-level cuck right there...

Yes and no, he was distancing himself from us, and sotto voce saying we shouldn't "deffend" him or his game. Because we terribad people who constantly incurr in wrongthink.

[Minotaurians]

Yes and no, he was distancing himself from us, and sotto voce saying we shouldn't "deffend" him or his game. Because we terribad people who constantly incurr in wrongthink.

That's not what I wrote nor what I implied. Stop presuming please. I never came here for anybody to "defend" my game AND I had certainly no intention of discussing the Crusades; I just felt I had the right to intervene since my game was mentioned (but apparently I was wrong).

[Stephen Tannhauser]

I just felt I had the right to intervene since my game was mentioned (but apparently I was wrong).

The atmosphere here is generally more impatient, abrasive and aggressive than it is in other fora; there's nothing wrong with taking people's tones here with several grains of salt to taste.  We can definitely reassure you that a number of us share the negative experience of having been unfairly judged at TBP -- some of us remain angry enough at that that any response to that other than a hearty "eff yew" to the judgers feels insufficient.

The basic situation you're in right now, putting aside moralizing on either side, is that you're trying to promote a product the name of which has unfortunately run afoul of a negative reaction from one of the bigger RPG-centered web sites out there. It's not a question of "defending" the game per se directly to the complainants, because unfortunately TBP's policies make that impossible -- challenging a criticism claimed to be based in social justice concerns is not permitted -- but simply navigating that response, which will require deciding what your primary goal is.

If you want to make a business success of the game and don't think that's possible without promotion through TBP, you may have to make at least the appearance of conciliating to the complaints -- maybe a partial if not total name change (call it something like Champions & Crusaders, perhaps), or a promise to add some disclaimer text or write position-supporting supplements. (I would previously have advocated simply going silent for a few weeks and letting it be forgotten, but I'm less optimistic these days about people's willingness to trawl old posts for offensive material if they're peevy enough.)

If you really don't want to change the name or kowtow to these complaints, then you may have to reorient your promotion strategy around other sites and platforms.  (Not necessarily this one, which has some inescapable connotations of its own -- just being honest -- but there are a number of other places.) It is possible to do well without going through TBP, Pundit himself proves that, but it's an unfortunate brute reality, however unfair, that simply refusing to agree with SJ complaints is taken as reason enough to be treated as being on the Dark Side, so accepting that and moving forward is usually more productive.

I'm about to go buy a copy of the game myself, if that helps. Best of luck.

[FelixGamingX1]

Oh my! How entertaining!!

[Armchair Gamer]

If you really don't want to change the name or kowtow to these complaints, then you may have to reorient your promotion strategy around other sites and platforms.  (Not necessarily this one, which has some inescapable connotations of its own -- just being honest -- but there are a number of other places.)

   Olivier is doing well and getting a positive reception over at the RPG Pub, and has made some contacts there that might help with POD production.

[FelixGamingX1]

If you really don't want to change the name or kowtow to these complaints, then you may have to reorient your promotion strategy around other sites and platforms.  (Not necessarily this one, which has some inescapable connotations of its own -- just being honest -- but there are a number of other places.)

   Olivier is doing well and getting a positive reception over at the RPG Pub, and has made some contacts there that might help with POD production.

They aren't any different than rpg.not overthere. Mods are legit tardies.

[Dan Davenport]

Yes and no, he was distancing himself from us, and sotto voce saying we shouldn't "deffend" him or his game. Because we terribad people who constantly incurr in wrongthink.

That's not what I wrote nor what I implied. Stop presuming please. I never came here for anybody to "defend" my game AND I had certainly no intention of discussing the Crusades; I just felt I had the right to intervene since my game was mentioned (but apparently I was wrong).

Sorry for inadvertently dragging you into this. I was just venting at yet another injustice at TBP.