Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!

[Ratman_tf]

One aspect of their dystopia isn't going to hit me as hard as you, because I haven't been jabbed. Good luck there, no one has any idea what the long term effects are of whatever you've been injected with.

Production of a Transgenic Mosquito, as a Flying Syringe, to Deliver Protective Vaccine via Saliva

[Klava]

I've seen a lot of stuff taken out of context and I'm concerned about a lot of trends in the world, probably not the same one you see.

come on, dude, why are you still posting in this thread? it's long devolved into pointless name calling and virtue signaling by the resident anti-vaxxers. they are incapable of honest debate on this issue. they will tell you that their personal experiences are enough to not just put statistical studies and peer reviewed scientific research based on hundreds of thousands of cases under question - but to completely refute all of that. they will post unchecked raw data and claim complete certainty of that data supporting their notions. they will say that it's up to a sceptic to check that raw data - while they themselves are totally free from that burden simply because they happen to agree with the conclusions.

they are, in other words, nuts.
let it go. nothing to see here, move along.

[Scooter]

Oh please. Actual pronouncements and publications by the WEF (easily found) are hardly "out of context". The Great Reset is a fucking published book.

Schwab boasting in 2017 that his puppets are in governments: ...

Trying to turn the people who support this criminality by the gov't is ultimately counter productive.  They need to naturally fall out of gene pool. 

[Grognard GM]

I've seen a lot of stuff taken out of context and I'm concerned about a lot of trends in the world, probably not the same one you see.

come on, dude, why are you still posting in this thread? it's long devolved into pointless name calling and virtue signaling by the resident anti-vaxxers. they are incapable of honest debate on this issue. they will tell you that their personal experiences are enough to not just put statistical studies and peer reviewed scientific research based on hundreds of thousands of cases under question - but to completely refute all of that. they will post unchecked raw data and claim complete certainty of that data supporting their notions. they will say that it's up to a sceptic to check that raw data - while they themselves are totally free from that burden simply because they happen to agree with the conclusions.

they are, in other words, nuts.
let it go. nothing to see here, move along.

The same reason you are, he's a Tankie.

[KindaMeh]

Klava, Garry G., I for one welcome debate, especially when it is backed by statistics. Generally speaking, most folks on this site tend to be pretty sharp and capable people, even if oftentimes folks may not agree. (Which I myself would argue is a feature, not a bug. I don't need yet another complete echo chamber.)

And many (I would argue most) skeptics of the government response to Covid (basically the topic of this thread), myself included, are willing to acknowledge some basic facts. Covid was more deadly than the flu. In the early days something like 5% of those who had it were hospitalized, and maybe 1% or so of those who contracted it died, like Trump had predicted. The vaccines at bare minimum had alleviative attributes, which sizably cut hospitalizations and deaths BY COVID for those who had them. Longhauler symptoms are also real, if overexaggerated in how people think of incidence rates.

That being said, I stand by what I've said previously in response to this thread, in that the government response and policies were BS.

Respiratory illnesses showing up in hospitals dropped like 50% during enforced masking, not just COVID, and they had a similar kill count to COVID prior to its emergence. Why then is "the science" definitively behind masking for one and not the other, given that we were not forced to wear masks prior to that? Answer: Science doesn't mandate action or provide actionable values, and it was basically a smokescreen given that, again, in this context the tradeoff between freedom and security for masking on a similar death count wasn't judged to be "scientifically" actionable. Same logic applies to shutdowns and trashing the economy of places like Nevada (gambling, buffets and tourism are most of what's there, for instance) through stringent requirements shutting down or making nonviable a whole host of businesses and the like. I'm not even gonna touch on religious services, protests, related constitutional questions and the whole double standard there. "Science" cannot therefore be used as a shield to defend upending and destroying American society and mental health through an act of political will.

Then there's the political discrimination piece to masking and vaccines. When one party and it's affiliates are not taking the vaccine, targeting those who don't have the vaccine as ineligible for public service and government positions is blatant political discrimination and effectively at times political clientelism. And don't give me the "for those they would infect" bullshit. If the vaccine really works, even from an alleviative standpoint, which it does, then the only people "at risk" are those unvaccinated who have decided to take that risk after weighing their health, knowledge, and health of their families in good faith and clean conscience.

On which note, the vaccines do have, admittedly somewhat rare, confirmed side effects. And COVID became less deadly during Omicron. And to begin with it didn't impact all demographics equally, and those young and healthy were pretty much guaranteed to be fine. And the development was admittedly somewhat rushed, and corporations care about cash to begin with while having real lobbyists with impact on the political process, and the FDA is kinda meh at its job. AND having COVID grants natural vaccination/immunity or whatever. So if people don't wanna get the shot? That's their decision. See the above paragraph for why it doesn't impact anybody who hasn't actively chosen to take that risk. More to the point, nobody can say the long term effects of MOST THINGS with complete accuracy without a long period of time having passed. We as humans can run tests and formulate informed opinions, but even with that there are limits. I'm not gonna be upset with people for weighing risks and evidence differently from me, much less would I consider pursuing legal constraints and political discrimination against them, which is effectively what wound up happening in many places. This thread is quite arguably and perhaps not wrongly about government mishandling and societal overreach within this context.

I've also heard a lot of things on this thread from people like Kiero, whom you seem to be dismissing out of hand, which have corrected some of my misconceptions or led me down interesting research paths. I don't always agree with them, much less on absolutely everything, but this thread gave me exposure to many differing perspectives during a time when IRL I wasn't hearing more than one or two. So yeah.

[Garry G]

I've seen a lot of stuff taken out of context and I'm concerned about a lot of trends in the world, probably not the same one you see.

come on, dude, why are you still posting in this thread? it's long devolved into pointless name calling and virtue signaling by the resident anti-vaxxers. they are incapable of honest debate on this issue. they will tell you that their personal experiences are enough to not just put statistical studies and peer reviewed scientific research based on hundreds of thousands of cases under question - but to completely refute all of that. they will post unchecked raw data and claim complete certainty of that data supporting their notions. they will say that it's up to a sceptic to check that raw data - while they themselves are totally free from that burden simply because they happen to agree with the conclusions.

they are, in other words, nuts.
let it go. nothing to see here, move along.

The same reason you are, he's a Tankie.

This is the problem. If you're an extremist you can only see extremes which reduces dialogue. I'm not a tankie but I am a social democrat who believes in mixed economies. I see you accused me of gaslighting upthread for asking for clear explanations of what seems to be extreme views that  need to be fully elaborated on because they are so outside what can be observed that they appear unbelievable. I'm not willing to label people as enemies and leave it at that, Kiero in particular is a person I have a lot of respect for and I find his dip into extremism worrying.

Your labelling me as a tankie says more about you than me.

[Ratman_tf]

I've seen a lot of stuff taken out of context and I'm concerned about a lot of trends in the world, probably not the same one you see.

come on, dude, why are you still posting in this thread? it's long devolved into pointless name calling and virtue signaling by the resident anti-vaxxers. they are incapable of honest debate on this issue. they will tell you that their personal experiences are enough to not just put statistical studies and peer reviewed scientific research based on hundreds of thousands of cases under question - but to completely refute all of that. they will post unchecked raw data and claim complete certainty of that data supporting their notions. they will say that it's up to a sceptic to check that raw data - while they themselves are totally free from that burden simply because they happen to agree with the conclusions.

they are, in other words, nuts.
let it go. nothing to see here, move along.

The same reason you are, he's a Tankie.

This is the problem. If you're an extremist you can only see extremes which reduces dialogue. I'm not a tankie but I am a social democrat who believes in mixed economies. I see you accused me of gaslighting upthread for asking for clear explanations of what seems to be extreme views that  need to be fully elaborated on because they are so outside what can be observed that they appear unbelievable. I'm not willing to label people as enemies and leave it at that, Kiero in particular is a person I have a lot of respect for and I find his dip into extremism worrying.

This shit is not "outside of what can be observed". It's for fucking sale on Amazon books.


https://www.amazon.com/COVID-19-Great-Reset-Klaus-Schwab/dp/2940631123/ref=sr_1_3?keywords=the+great+reset&qid=1692468326&sr=8-3

[Garry G]

I honestly don't. I've seen a lot of stuff taken out of context and I'm concerned about a lot of trends in the world, probably not the same one you see.

Given that we disagree on what we see in the world what are you doing to make the change. Being dismissive and saying people who don't see the obvious clearly doesn't work. The dystopia you're positing will hit you just as hard as anybody else. You clearly think I'm an idiot so treat me like one, explain it all in small easy steps.

I'm also still interested to know what you're doing in your community to further your agenda.

Oh please. Actual pronouncements and publications by the WEF (easily found) are hardly "out of context". The Great Reset is a fucking published book.

Schwab boasting in 2017 that his puppets are in governments:

And they're hardly some obscure organisation, they're partnered with the UN, WHO, World Bank and all the other international organisations. My own employer cites their crap in e-learning I'm force-fed.

Partnered with the royal family, even:

I'm guessing you've never seen this, either:

One aspect of their dystopia isn't going to hit me as hard as you, because I haven't been jabbed. Good luck there, no one has any idea what the long term effects are of whatever you've been injected with.

None of those videos actually say anything. The first is the most interesting, and possibly the most damning, but really is about politicians talking in a global world and if we're talking about the power of the illuminati lets think about  see how the Putin mention looks now.

I have no interest in the Royal Family and their opinions shouldn't matter.

Weirdly enough I think Stalmer is right. If the party in power has enough seats they can pretty much do what they like so the next step is international diplomacy.

This isn't interesting, let alone convincing. You represent an incredible extreme in British politics so the onus is on you to convince others. Is this all you've got?

[Garry G]

I've seen a lot of stuff taken out of context and I'm concerned about a lot of trends in the world, probably not the same one you see.

come on, dude, why are you still posting in this thread? it's long devolved into pointless name calling and virtue signaling by the resident anti-vaxxers. they are incapable of honest debate on this issue. they will tell you that their personal experiences are enough to not just put statistical studies and peer reviewed scientific research based on hundreds of thousands of cases under question - but to completely refute all of that. they will post unchecked raw data and claim complete certainty of that data supporting their notions. they will say that it's up to a sceptic to check that raw data - while they themselves are totally free from that burden simply because they happen to agree with the conclusions.

they are, in other words, nuts.
let it go. nothing to see here, move along.

The same reason you are, he's a Tankie.

This is the problem. If you're an extremist you can only see extremes which reduces dialogue. I'm not a tankie but I am a social democrat who believes in mixed economies. I see you accused me of gaslighting upthread for asking for clear explanations of what seems to be extreme views that  need to be fully elaborated on because they are so outside what can be observed that they appear unbelievable. I'm not willing to label people as enemies and leave it at that, Kiero in particular is a person I have a lot of respect for and I find his dip into extremism worrying.

This shit is not "outside of what can be observed". It's for fucking sale on Amazon books.


https://www.amazon.com/COVID-19-Great-Reset-Klaus-Schwab/dp/2940631123/ref=sr_1_3?keywords=the+great+reset&qid=1692468326&sr=8-3

A book about looking at how our economy has problems isn't the same as a global movement picking and changing the leaders of countries.

[Ratman_tf]

I've seen a lot of stuff taken out of context and I'm concerned about a lot of trends in the world, probably not the same one you see.

come on, dude, why are you still posting in this thread? it's long devolved into pointless name calling and virtue signaling by the resident anti-vaxxers. they are incapable of honest debate on this issue. they will tell you that their personal experiences are enough to not just put statistical studies and peer reviewed scientific research based on hundreds of thousands of cases under question - but to completely refute all of that. they will post unchecked raw data and claim complete certainty of that data supporting their notions. they will say that it's up to a sceptic to check that raw data - while they themselves are totally free from that burden simply because they happen to agree with the conclusions.

they are, in other words, nuts.
let it go. nothing to see here, move along.

The same reason you are, he's a Tankie.

This is the problem. If you're an extremist you can only see extremes which reduces dialogue. I'm not a tankie but I am a social democrat who believes in mixed economies. I see you accused me of gaslighting upthread for asking for clear explanations of what seems to be extreme views that  need to be fully elaborated on because they are so outside what can be observed that they appear unbelievable. I'm not willing to label people as enemies and leave it at that, Kiero in particular is a person I have a lot of respect for and I find his dip into extremism worrying.

This shit is not "outside of what can be observed". It's for fucking sale on Amazon books.


https://www.amazon.com/COVID-19-Great-Reset-Klaus-Schwab/dp/2940631123/ref=sr_1_3?keywords=the+great+reset&qid=1692468326&sr=8-3

A book about looking at how our economy has problems isn't the same as a global movement picking and changing the leaders of countries.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Economic_Forum

I don't know about "picking and changing the leaders of countries", but this is a massive, powerful organiization with great political influence, and very suspicious goals and methods.

[Kiero]

come on, dude, why are you still posting in this thread? it's long devolved into pointless name calling and virtue signaling by the resident anti-vaxxers. they are incapable of honest debate on this issue. they will tell you that their personal experiences are enough to not just put statistical studies and peer reviewed scientific research based on hundreds of thousands of cases under question - but to completely refute all of that. they will post unchecked raw data and claim complete certainty of that data supporting their notions. they will say that it's up to a sceptic to check that raw data - while they themselves are totally free from that burden simply because they happen to agree with the conclusions.

they are, in other words, nuts.
let it go. nothing to see here, move along.

Moron makes pronouncement about how no one is capable of debate, whilst avoiding any debate. Gotcha.

Never mind that you appear to either discount or be utterly ignorant of how corrupt "science" is and how most statistical modelling is utter garbage. See "climate change" which is also arrant horseshit. "Peer reviewed" means fuck all, hasn't meant anything for decades.

I'm not nuts for remaining unchanged by the shitstorm of absolute bollocks that came out in 2020 over the pandemic that never was. Keep telling yourself whatever helps you sleep at night, though.

[Garry G]

I've seen a lot of stuff taken out of context and I'm concerned about a lot of trends in the world, probably not the same one you see.

come on, dude, why are you still posting in this thread? it's long devolved into pointless name calling and virtue signaling by the resident anti-vaxxers. they are incapable of honest debate on this issue. they will tell you that their personal experiences are enough to not just put statistical studies and peer reviewed scientific research based on hundreds of thousands of cases under question - but to completely refute all of that. they will post unchecked raw data and claim complete certainty of that data supporting their notions. they will say that it's up to a sceptic to check that raw data - while they themselves are totally free from that burden simply because they happen to agree with the conclusions.

they are, in other words, nuts.
let it go. nothing to see here, move along.

Weirdly enough it's because I think more of people, Kiero in particular is a smart guy who has always had views I disagree with but never this extreme. I want him to explain his position because I want to see the connective tissue that leads to such an extreme position. I'd hope that this may lead him to see that his views are untenable but that's unlikely.

Kiero thinks that I'm a disingenuous arsehole who likes to wind him up but also a sheeple who doesn't question things. I find that a little hurtful but I'm willing to give the sheeple thing a go if he just explains these things that are so fucking obvious.

That's my frustration. It's not logical or obvious and saying it is doesn't make it so. Kiero is better than that I ask him to explain why and how  Boris Johnson lost the job with PM and he talks about sinister figures getting rid of him when it's clear that he just lost support from colleagues as he lost public support due to repeated lying, a fucked up ruling party isn't a worldwide conspiracy it's just a fucked up ruling party. Covid was just a mess and the first vaccine did actually kill people but once again fucked up governments fucked up, the UK government pre-emptively fucked up by cutting funding to pandemic measures years before. None of this needs a complicated conspiracy theory.

And yeah, they're nuts. I've told them they're nuts but I believe that people can draw back from nuts.

[Ratman_tf]

Covid was just a mess and the first vaccine did actually kill people but once again fucked up governments fucked up, the UK government pre-emptively fucked up by cutting funding to pandemic measures years before. None of this needs a complicated conspiracy theory.

Coivd was not "just a mess". It was a mess, and a blatant power grab by governments. Censoring of dissenting opinions. Massive media narratives. Bad science bordering on superstitious, magical thinking. Spreading disinformation via institutions that were supposed to be at least somewhat trustworthy and non-partisan. Lockdowns extending far beyond their useful time frames, and far outside their scope of usefulness. I could go on an on, and link up all the instances I'm referring to. But theres a metric fuckton already in this thread for your perusal.

[Scooter]

Lockdowns extending far beyond their useful time frames, and far outside their scope of usefulness.

Get real.  AL the lock downs were completely illegal and a HUGE criminal action.  All involved should be hanged.

[KindaMeh]

Lockdowns extending far beyond their useful time frames, and far outside their scope of usefulness.

Get real.  AL the lock downs were completely illegal and a HUGE criminal action.  All involved should be hanged.

Actually, I think Ratman's right. They screwed up, and chose to keep screwing up in part because it served their interests and granted them power, but they arguably had the legal right to do most of it, especially early on when not much was known and it was Trump doing it. Likewise media, while morally corrupt in many cases, can and does say what it likes thanks to free speech, whether it's promoting the ideology of FOX or CNN. (Both of which got a lot of things wrong about Covid.) A caveat being that this incident involved big tech censorship, as noted by Ratman and encouraged by partisanship. As well as religious, assembly, and political discrimination issues that were seldom properly addressed. But more to the point hanging doesn't solve jack shit, just devolves things into murdering folks we disagree with.