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Fan Forums => The RPGPundit's Own Forum => Topic started by: Spinachcat on August 02, 2021, 11:31:32 PM

Title: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Spinachcat on August 02, 2021, 11:31:32 PM
Residents in San Diego, California (nominally still part of the USA) happily sign a petition to IMPRISON anyone who refuses the Chyna Virus jab.



Red State Secession anyone?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ghostmaker on August 03, 2021, 10:18:34 AM
Matt Yglesias (a so-called 'journalist') opined on Twitter that people needed to be held down and forcibly vaccinated.

(https://gunfreezone.net/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/matthew-Yglesias-deleted-jab-2.jpg)

He later wiped his Twitter feed, presumably because someone threatened to feed him his own guts.

Autonomy? 'My body, my choice'? Dead. Well done.

But hey, no more mean tweets.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ratman_tf on August 03, 2021, 11:12:49 AM
This shit makes me... not wish that the vaccines turn out to have serious side effects.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/ijcp.13795

But goddamn does the vile thought run through my head when these assholes want to ram their mindless decision down other people's throats.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: FelixGamingX1 on August 03, 2021, 11:44:44 AM
Residents in San Diego, California (nominally still part of the USA) happily sign a petition to IMPRISON anyone who refuses the Chyna Virus jab.

Hahahah that's not going to happen! What's probably going to happen is something similar to that Obama Care rule, if you can afford health insurance and chooses not to, than you'd be paying a little extra on your taxes. Giving these tweets the benefit of a doubt only feeds the paranoid and increases the divide. We got enough misinformation as it is, and that's just silly.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ghostmaker on August 03, 2021, 01:29:30 PM
Residents in San Diego, California (nominally still part of the USA) happily sign a petition to IMPRISON anyone who refuses the Chyna Virus jab.

Hahahah that's not going to happen! What's probably going to happen is something similar to that Obama Care rule, if you can afford health insurance and chooses not to, than you'd be paying a little extra on your taxes. Giving these tweets the benefit of a doubt only feeds the paranoid and increases the divide. We got enough misinformation as it is, and that's just silly.
You know the mandate got overturned, right?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Reckall on August 03, 2021, 01:52:29 PM
Residents in San Diego, California (nominally still part of the USA) happily sign a petition to IMPRISON anyone who refuses the Chyna Virus jab.



Red State Secession anyone?

I guess that "Red State Secession" would be interpreted as "Fuck yeah! Kick away all those Communist States!" causing a very confused secession.

To be clear, here we have another example of "random sample of Americans" and their understanding of maps 😂:


Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Shasarak on August 03, 2021, 05:09:24 PM
You could sue California for some sweet sweet money if they started doing that.

It truly is Clown world.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: GriswaldTerrastone on August 03, 2021, 09:51:58 PM
The vaccinations aren't even FDA approved, for crying out loud.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Reckall on August 04, 2021, 07:00:22 AM
The vaccinations aren't even FDA approved, for crying out loud.

Nor is the COVID for what matters. Are you even aware of how an influenza virus works?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on August 04, 2021, 11:00:51 AM
It was sold as a 100% slamdunk cure. Now its a 'aid' for when you do get infected anyway. This whole thing is sketchy as hell.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on August 04, 2021, 12:06:57 PM
It was sold as a 100% slamdunk cure. Now its a 'aid' for when you do get infected anyway. This whole thing is sketchy as hell.
I've said it before, but I think public health's biggest failure during the pandemic was messaging. Their primary goal should have been to share information. Unvarnished information, with all the warts, including those nasty uncertainty bars. It's fine if the science changes[1].

But rather than being purely information-oriented, they seem to have been mostly goal oriented, primarily aimed at changing people's behaviors. Even when they don't lie (and they eventually do lie; it's a natural consequence of this approach), they often convey a higher degree of certainty than is merited, because "this is absolutely effective" makes a more compelling case for action than "here are the caveats".

The problem is that's short-term thinking. Yes, pretending the world is ending unless you do X is a great way to convince people do X -- but only the first time. The second time, people will start to be more skeptical, and it will just get worse from there. It's the boy who cries wolf problem. It creates a vicious cycle where they have to keep upping the rhetoric, and the truth becomes more and more of a casualty.

If they saw their mission as simply conveying information, and relying on people to make the best choices on their own, things would have been very different. In that case, they would have built a lot of credibility. Being uncertain may discourage people in the short term, but in the long term, when they see how the science changes[1], they'll come to appreciate that they weren't sold a bunch of absolutes. People will develop trust in the information presented, and end up making better decisions.

Ironically, public health would probably have been able to accomplish more of their long term goals by not focusing on those goals, and just being honest about what they know and don't know instead.

[1] It's really weird that it's become the norm to refer to "science" as this monolithic thing, instead of saying something like "a new study came out".
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Eirikrautha on August 04, 2021, 12:16:29 PM
It was sold as a 100% slamdunk cure. Now its a 'aid' for when you do get infected anyway. This whole thing is sketchy as hell.
I've said it before, but I think public health's biggest failure during the pandemic was messaging. Their primary goal should have been to share information. Unvarnished information, with all the warts, including those nasty uncertainty bars. It's fine if the science changes[1].

But rather than being purely information-oriented, they seem to have been mostly goal oriented, primarily aimed at changing people's behaviors. Even when they don't lie (and they eventually do lie; it's a natural consequence of this approach), they often convey a higher degree of certainty than is merited, because "this is absolutely effective" makes a more compelling case for action than "here are the caveats".

The problem is that's short-term thinking. Yes, pretending the world is ending unless you do X is a great way to convince people do X -- but only the first time. The second time, people will start to be more skeptical, and it will just get worse from there. It's the boy who cries wolf problem. It creates a vicious cycle where they have to keep upping the rhetoric, and the truth becomes more and more of a casualty.

If they saw their mission as simply conveying information, and relying on people to make the best choices on their own, things would have been very different. In that case, they would have built a lot of credibility. Being uncertain may discourage people in the short term, but in the long term, when they see how the science changes[1], they'll come to appreciate that they weren't sold a bunch of absolutes. People will develop trust in the information presented, and end up making better decisions.

Ironically, public health would probably have been able to accomplish more of their long term goals by not focusing on those goals, and just being honest about what they know and don't know instead.

[1] It's really weird that it's become the norm to refer to "science" as this monolithic thing, instead of saying something like "a new study came out".
Well, that's because the goal isn't "public health" (which is a nonsense phrase, anyway, as health is a feature of individuals).  It's control.  The people who are on TV making these pronouncements aren't doctors (despite the fact that they have Ph.Ds in medicine) or scientists; they are career bureaucrats.  I've seen as many patients in the last 20 years as Anthony Fauci (hint: it's zero).  So their number one goal is to make you do what they want.  Your actual health is secondary, at best...
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on August 04, 2021, 12:18:09 PM
I've said it before, but I think public health's biggest failure during the pandemic was messaging. Their primary goal should have been to share information. Unvarnished information, with all the warts, including those nasty uncertainty bars. It's fine if the science changes[1].
Im also concerned about this having backroom deal politics involved. Where companies market their cures as a slam-dunk to get the pay and the credit. And politicians don't want to market 'Yeah we are largely fucked for a while, stay put while we figure it out', they want to say 'I got a slam dunk solution!'. Lies may have not just been for peoples security, but for money and prestige.

Now that the lie is coming out, this now has credibility on the line. Why should we be buying tons of this expensive vaccine if its effectiveness is a MAYBE.

My father got infected despite taking the vaxine. In theory it made recovery better. But I find the whole thing in question now.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on August 04, 2021, 12:40:30 PM
I've said it before, but I think public health's biggest failure during the pandemic was messaging. Their primary goal should have been to share information. Unvarnished information, with all the warts, including those nasty uncertainty bars. It's fine if the science changes[1].
Im also concerned about this having backroom deal politics involved. Where companies market their cures as a slam-dunk to get the pay and the credit. And politicians don't want to market 'Yeah we are largely fucked for a while, stay put while we figure it out', they want to say 'I got a slam dunk solution!'. Lies may have not just been for peoples security, but for money and prestige.

Now that the lie is coming out, this now has credibility on the line. Why should we be buying tons of this expensive vaccine if its effectiveness is a MAYBE.

My father got infected despite taking the vaxine. In theory it made recovery better. But I find the whole thing in question now.
Have you seen the contracts that Pfizer had countries sign? They're absurd. 10 to 30 year blackout period where the details of the contract can't be shared, complete assumption of all liability by the government, guarantee of payment under almost all possible circumstances... they were ridiculously one sided. There's a lot of money flowing, and while there's no smoking gun yet, it sure smells like corruption.

The vaccines do work fairly well. But they tend to mitigate the worst effects, rather than making you immune. They're less effective than natural immunity. And the efficacy ratings are highly deceptive. They also have some significant side effects. Though they're less dangerous than the disease overall, especially for high risk populations like the elderly. But for low risk populations, like children, that calculus changes. And we don't know about long term complications. In other words, it's complicated. Public health should never have pretended otherwise.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Reckall on August 04, 2021, 01:34:53 PM
[1] It's really weird that it's become the norm to refer to "science" as this monolithic thing, instead of saying something like "a new study came out".

The problem is not "referring to science" by itself. Science is not monolithic: it learns, changes and evolves everyday. There is a reason as why they had propeller planes in WWII and we have jets today.

Planes, however, tend to stay up. When an airplane falls - and it is very rare - there is an investigation. Usually they find that the cause is a flaw, some sort of human error or even a freakish accident. They do their best to fix it and planes continue to stay up.

How virii act is very well known. In one hour any eight grader can learn the basics of virology. It is that simple.

Today, however, those who believe in "science" are derided. Fine. What the alternative is, so?

Hearsay?
What your favourite politician says?
Folk remedies?
Voodoo?

Even worse, some people grasp a single concept, with no context, and speak from it like if it is the absolute truth.

"Only I decide what enters in my body and when!!" Fine. Are you aware that you just justified DUIing? I don't think so. Seldom these kind of people think things through.

"Masks = Fascism!!" So is the mandatory use of helmets in heavy industries and other work activities, I guess.

"I don't want no shitty vaccine DNA!!" Then you will possibly get COVID DNA. Me? Given a choice I'll go for the vaccine but if you like COVID more feel free to embrace the alternative. I don't think, however, that these people ever reached eight grade - not mentally at least - and thus they lack the awareness that your cells are invaded by foreign DNA every day. In unlucky times it will be the Spanish Flu or the COVID, but the idea "No vaccine = no shitty DNA in my cells!!" is the very definition of delusionary.

"Dr. Fauci is wrong!! A doctor said that!!" A whole doctor? Wow! :o

And so on. A concept is expressed, but no solution is given. Ironically, by grasping "the infinite truth!" via refusing any context - all of this while attacking and laughing about those who disagree - these people are not different from SJW and wokes. They are actually the same, only the specifics of the "religion" are different.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on August 04, 2021, 01:41:22 PM
Today, however, those who believe in "science" are derided. Fine. What the alternative is, so?
Don't do this 'woah is me' bullshit. People who believe in 'science' are derided? By whom? When the entire media establishment and the culture as a whole has a mystical almost religeous worship of The Science (TM).
Because SOME people don't worship The Science (TM), then all of science is under threat! Unless complaince with The Science (TM) is 110% then that means poor scientists are under fire!
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Reckall on August 04, 2021, 01:45:38 PM
Today, however, those who believe in "science" are derided. Fine. What the alternative is, so?
Don't do this 'woah is me' bullshit. People who believe in 'science' are derided? By whom? When the entire media establishment and the culture as a whole has a mystical almost religeous worship of The Science (TM).
Because SOME people don't worship The Science (TM), then all of science is under threat! Unless complaince with The Science (TM) is 110% then that means poor scientists are under fire!

Your personal opinion on "science" being?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on August 04, 2021, 01:58:33 PM
Today, however, those who believe in "science" are derided. Fine. What the alternative is, so?
The alternative is not treating science as a belief system, with priests and holy dogma, but instead treating it as what it is, a highly effective set of systems for developing knowledge. The people who talk about "believing in the science" are usually in the first category. They've chosen a set of prophets, treat their word as infallible, and react to anyone speaks against those words as a heretic, regardless of their qualifications or the soundness of their arguments. A good example of that is when people started posting on social media that their doctor had advised them against taking the vaccine, usually because of some pre-existing medical condition, and they were told they should get another doctor.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on August 04, 2021, 02:19:44 PM
Your personal opinion on "science" being?

That its a method of understanding the natural world. Practitioners os science are smart, but as fallible as anyone else.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: KingCheops on August 04, 2021, 02:22:57 PM
Is there something wrong with saying:

"mRNA treatments and adenoidal viral vectors are still relatively untested technologies that don't have a long term track record?  I'd rather wait for a traditional vaccine like Novavax where I know how it works and where it'll go in my body.  After all Pfizer itself knows that within 48 hours all the "vaccine" moves throughout the body and mostly settles in the ovaries and bone marrow."
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ratman_tf on August 04, 2021, 03:19:15 PM
I've said it before, but I think public health's biggest failure during the pandemic was messaging. Their primary goal should have been to share information. Unvarnished information, with all the warts, including those nasty uncertainty bars. It's fine if the science changes[1].
Im also concerned about this having backroom deal politics involved. Where companies market their cures as a slam-dunk to get the pay and the credit. And politicians don't want to market 'Yeah we are largely fucked for a while, stay put while we figure it out', they want to say 'I got a slam dunk solution!'. Lies may have not just been for peoples security, but for money and prestige.

Now that the lie is coming out, this now has credibility on the line. Why should we be buying tons of this expensive vaccine if its effectiveness is a MAYBE.

My father got infected despite taking the vaxine. In theory it made recovery better. But I find the whole thing in question now.
Have you seen the contracts that Pfizer had countries sign? They're absurd. 10 to 30 year blackout period where the details of the contract can't be shared, complete assumption of all liability by the government, guarantee of payment under almost all possible circumstances... they were ridiculously one sided. There's a lot of money flowing, and while there's no smoking gun yet, it sure smells like corruption.

The vaccines do work fairly well. But they tend to mitigate the worst effects, rather than making you immune. They're less effective than natural immunity. And the efficacy ratings are highly deceptive. They also have some significant side effects. Though they're less dangerous than the disease overall, especially for high risk populations like the elderly. But for low risk populations, like children, that calculus changes. And we don't know about long term complications. In other words, it's complicated. Public health should never have pretended otherwise.

I'm starting to think the idea is that if they get nearly everyone vaccinated, then they can point to that as an indicator that everyone agreed with the government's decisions. A way to spread out the blame if/when the promises they made about the vaccines turn out to be more marketing than fact.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ratman_tf on August 04, 2021, 03:25:42 PM
"believing in the science"

Is the first hint that something is terribly wrong.

(https://spikeybits.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/Adeptus_mechanicus_by_cribs-d4b4afs.jpg)
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Eirikrautha on August 04, 2021, 03:40:06 PM
[1] It's really weird that it's become the norm to refer to "science" as this monolithic thing, instead of saying something like "a new study came out".

The problem is not "referring to science" by itself. Science is not monolithic: it learns, changes and evolves everyday. There is a reason as why they had propeller planes in WWII and we have jets today.

Planes, however, tend to stay up. When an airplane falls - and it is very rare - there is an investigation. Usually they find that the cause is a flaw, some sort of human error or even a freakish accident. They do their best to fix it and planes continue to stay up.

How virii act is very well known. In one hour any eight grader can learn the basics of virology. It is that simple.

Today, however, those who believe in "science" are derided. Fine. What the alternative is, so?

Hearsay?
What your favourite politician says?
Folk remedies?
Voodoo?

Even worse, some people grasp a single concept, with no context, and speak from it like if it is the absolute truth.

"Only I decide what enters in my body and when!!" Fine. Are you aware that you just justified DUIing? I don't think so. Seldom these kind of people think things through.

"Masks = Fascism!!" So is the mandatory use of helmets in heavy industries and other work activities, I guess.

"I don't want no shitty vaccine DNA!!" Then you will possibly get COVID DNA. Me? Given a choice I'll go for the vaccine but if you like COVID more feel free to embrace the alternative. I don't think, however, that these people ever reached eight grade - not mentally at least - and thus they lack the awareness that your cells are invaded by foreign DNA every day. In unlucky times it will be the Spanish Flu or the COVID, but the idea "No vaccine = no shitty DNA in my cells!!" is the very definition of delusionary.

"Dr. Fauci is wrong!! A doctor said that!!" A whole doctor? Wow! :o

And so on. A concept is expressed, but no solution is given. Ironically, by grasping "the infinite truth!" via refusing any context - all of this while attacking and laughing about those who disagree - these people are not different from SJW and wokes. They are actually the same, only the specifics of the "religion" are different.
I certainly hope you don't smoke.  Surrounded by all those strawmen, you're liable to start a serious fire...
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Eirikrautha on August 04, 2021, 03:51:30 PM
Today, however, those who believe in "science" are derided. Fine. What the alternative is, so?
The alternative is not treating science as a belief system, with priests and holy dogma, but instead treating it as what it is, a highly effective set of systems for developing knowledge. The people who talk about "believing in the science" are usually in the first category. They've chosen a set of prophets, treat their word as infallible, and react to anyone speaks against those words as a heretic, regardless of their qualifications or the soundness of their arguments. A good example of that is when people started posting on social media that their doctor had advised them against taking the vaccine, usually because of some pre-existing medical condition, and they were told they should get another doctor.
Exactly!  Science is a process, not a product.  The most that can ever be said for any product is: "We arrived at this result using the scientific method, and this result does not appear to be contradicted by additional observation."  Modern "scientific" practice, however, tends to pick a particular outcome first, then gathers evidence to support it.  This is especially true in cases where large sums of money (pharmaceuticals, medicine, publicly funded research) are dependent on the outcome of the research.  It is also a function of the "publish or perish" construction of most research universities.  Performing research that results in a negative or no conclusion tends not to get published.  Replicating a previous experiment tends not to get published.  Extraordinary results, even if unlikely to be accurate, get published.

https://journals.plos.org/plosmedicine/article?id=10.1371/journal.pmed.0020124
https://phys.org/news/2018-07-beware-scientific-studiesmost-wrong.html
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 04, 2021, 03:58:52 PM
It was sold as a 100% slamdunk cure. Now its a 'aid' for when you do get infected anyway. This whole thing is sketchy as hell.
I've said it before, but I think public health's biggest failure during the pandemic was messaging. Their primary goal should have been to share information. Unvarnished information, with all the warts, including those nasty uncertainty bars. It's fine if the science changes[1].

But rather than being purely information-oriented, they seem to have been mostly goal oriented, primarily aimed at changing people's behaviors. Even when they don't lie (and they eventually do lie; it's a natural consequence of this approach), they often convey a higher degree of certainty than is merited, because "this is absolutely effective" makes a more compelling case for action than "here are the caveats".

The problem is that's short-term thinking. Yes, pretending the world is ending unless you do X is a great way to convince people do X -- but only the first time. The second time, people will start to be more skeptical, and it will just get worse from there. It's the boy who cries wolf problem. It creates a vicious cycle where they have to keep upping the rhetoric, and the truth becomes more and more of a casualty.

If they saw their mission as simply conveying information, and relying on people to make the best choices on their own, things would have been very different. In that case, they would have built a lot of credibility. Being uncertain may discourage people in the short term, but in the long term, when they see how the science changes[1], they'll come to appreciate that they weren't sold a bunch of absolutes. People will develop trust in the information presented, and end up making better decisions.

Ironically, public health would probably have been able to accomplish more of their long term goals by not focusing on those goals, and just being honest about what they know and don't know instead.

[1] It's really weird that it's become the norm to refer to "science" as this monolithic thing, instead of saying something like "a new study came out".
Well, that's because the goal isn't "public health" (which is a nonsense phrase, anyway, as health is a feature of individuals).  It's control.  The people who are on TV making these pronouncements aren't doctors (despite the fact that they have Ph.Ds in medicine) or scientists; they are career bureaucrats.  I've seen as many patients in the last 20 years as Anthony Fauci (hint: it's zero).  So their number one goal is to make you do what they want.  Your actual health is secondary, at best...
You don't have a fucking clue what public health means, and that's ok, but it doesn't mean that public health is nonsense. The vast majority of people live in an interdependent society, and the health of one/some can certainly impact the health of many/all. You're a dumbass, but even you can grasp that.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on August 04, 2021, 05:04:12 PM
You don't have a fucking clue what public health means, and that's ok, but it doesn't mean that public health is nonsense. The vast majority of people live in an interdependent society, and the health of one/some can certainly impact the health of many/all. You're a dumbass, but even you can grasp that.

We dealt with trivial respiratory viruses long before 2020.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 04, 2021, 05:17:31 PM
You don't have a fucking clue what public health means, and that's ok, but it doesn't mean that public health is nonsense. The vast majority of people live in an interdependent society, and the health of one/some can certainly impact the health of many/all. You're a dumbass, but even you can grasp that.

We dealt with trivial respiratory viruses long before 2020.
My statement isn't limited to the public health threat of a pandemic.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on August 04, 2021, 05:37:07 PM
Today, however, those who believe in "science" are derided. Fine. What the alternative is, so?
The alternative is not treating science as a belief system, with priests and holy dogma, but instead treating it as what it is, a highly effective set of systems for developing knowledge. The people who talk about "believing in the science" are usually in the first category. They've chosen a set of prophets, treat their word as infallible, and react to anyone speaks against those words as a heretic, regardless of their qualifications or the soundness of their arguments. A good example of that is when people started posting on social media that their doctor had advised them against taking the vaccine, usually because of some pre-existing medical condition, and they were told they should get another doctor.
Exactly!  Science is a process, not a product.  The most that can ever be said for any product is: "We arrived at this result using the scientific method, and this result does not appear to be contradicted by additional observation."  Modern "scientific" practice, however, tends to pick a particular outcome first, then gathers evidence to support it.  This is especially true in cases where large sums of money (pharmaceuticals, medicine, publicly funded research) are dependent on the outcome of the research.  It is also a function of the "publish or perish" construction of most research universities.  Performing research that results in a negative or no conclusion tends not to get published.  Replicating a previous experiment tends not to get published.  Extraordinary results, even if unlikely to be accurate, get published.

https://journals.plos.org/plosmedicine/article?id=10.1371/journal.pmed.0020124
https://phys.org/news/2018-07-beware-scientific-studiesmost-wrong.html
It is not standard scientific practice to decide on a result, and then search for supporting evidence. It does happen, and you're correct it's often associated with grants from special interest groups, but it's at least a managed problem. It's why declaring all potential conflicts of interest is so important, for instance.

You're correct about the publication bias toward studies that have an interesting results, and against studies that show something doesn't work. Though since the replication crisis, there's been an active attempt to counter that, with many attempts to confirm or disconfirm significant studies, and a push to provide outlets where negative results can be published (there isn't a page limit in electronic journals).

But the biggest problem is just statistics. Let's say spontaneous combustion has become the leading cause of death in the world, and your research on luciferian pathways comes up with 1,000 different chemicals you think might help reduce the chance of bursting into flame. Let's assume that none of the chemicals actually work, but you don't know that. So you run 1,000 trials, where you give each chemical to a different group of people. And then you wait a few years, and check to see how many in each group died a horrible witch death. Using statistical analysis, you calculate a p value for chemical, and look for values < 0.05. That 0.05 threshold means there's only a 5% chance to come up with that result by mere chance. Except you tested 1,000 chemicals. 5% of 1,000 is 50. That means you'll find roughly 50 chemicals that appear to have a statistically significant chance of reducing autoholocausts... except we know that none of the chemicals work. So all 50 positive results are false positives.

A lot of studies work like that. For example, genetic research often tests every single gene, looking for correlations, which can end up with a lot of hot statistical garbage. That it happens has been verified by empirical tests. There are ways to compensate for it, but a lot of medical researchers aren't very good at it, and even when it's done right, yes, it's often difficult to conduct enough testing to be sure, especially since the strength of the signal is fairly low (which is often the case).
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Eirikrautha on August 04, 2021, 05:44:00 PM
Today, however, those who believe in "science" are derided. Fine. What the alternative is, so?
The alternative is not treating science as a belief system, with priests and holy dogma, but instead treating it as what it is, a highly effective set of systems for developing knowledge. The people who talk about "believing in the science" are usually in the first category. They've chosen a set of prophets, treat their word as infallible, and react to anyone speaks against those words as a heretic, regardless of their qualifications or the soundness of their arguments. A good example of that is when people started posting on social media that their doctor had advised them against taking the vaccine, usually because of some pre-existing medical condition, and they were told they should get another doctor.
Exactly!  Science is a process, not a product.  The most that can ever be said for any product is: "We arrived at this result using the scientific method, and this result does not appear to be contradicted by additional observation."  Modern "scientific" practice, however, tends to pick a particular outcome first, then gathers evidence to support it.  This is especially true in cases where large sums of money (pharmaceuticals, medicine, publicly funded research) are dependent on the outcome of the research.  It is also a function of the "publish or perish" construction of most research universities.  Performing research that results in a negative or no conclusion tends not to get published.  Replicating a previous experiment tends not to get published.  Extraordinary results, even if unlikely to be accurate, get published.

https://journals.plos.org/plosmedicine/article?id=10.1371/journal.pmed.0020124
https://phys.org/news/2018-07-beware-scientific-studiesmost-wrong.html
It is not standard scientific practice to decide on a result, and then search for supporting evidence. It does happen, and you're correct it's often associated with grants from special interest groups, but it's at least a managed problem. It's why declaring all potential conflicts of interest is so important, for instance.

You're correct about the publication bias toward studies that have an interesting results, and against studies that show something doesn't work. Though since the replication crisis, there's been an active attempt to counter that, with many attempts to confirm or disconfirm significant studies, and a push to provide outlets where negative results can be published (there isn't a page limit in electronic journals).

But the biggest problem is just statistics. Let's say spontaneous combustion has become the leading cause of death in the world, and your research on luciferian pathways comes up with 1,000 different chemicals you think might help reduce the chance of bursting into flame. Let's assume that none of the chemicals actually work, but you don't know that. So you run 1,000 trials, where you give each chemical to a different group of people. And then you wait a few years, and check to see how many in each group died a horrible witch death. Using statistical analysis, you calculate a p value for chemical, and look for values < 0.05. That 0.05 threshold means there's only a 5% chance to come up with that result by mere chance. Except you tested 1,000 chemicals. 5% of 1,000 is 50. That means you'll find roughly 50 chemicals that appear to have a statistically significant chance of reducing autoholocausts... except we know that none of the chemicals work. So all 50 positive results are false positives.

A lot of studies work like that. For example, genetic research often tests every single gene, looking for correlations, which can end up with a lot of hot statistical garbage. That it happens has been verified by empirical tests. There are ways to compensate for it, but a lot of medical researchers aren't very good at it, and even when it's done right, yes, it's often difficult to conduct enough testing to be sure, especially since the strength of the signal is fairly low (which is often the case).
All very true.  The lack of replication then means that any additional studies on those false positives don't get printed when they contradict the original findings.  It's all intertwined.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Eirikrautha on August 04, 2021, 05:48:24 PM
It was sold as a 100% slamdunk cure. Now its a 'aid' for when you do get infected anyway. This whole thing is sketchy as hell.
I've said it before, but I think public health's biggest failure during the pandemic was messaging. Their primary goal should have been to share information. Unvarnished information, with all the warts, including those nasty uncertainty bars. It's fine if the science changes[1].

But rather than being purely information-oriented, they seem to have been mostly goal oriented, primarily aimed at changing people's behaviors. Even when they don't lie (and they eventually do lie; it's a natural consequence of this approach), they often convey a higher degree of certainty than is merited, because "this is absolutely effective" makes a more compelling case for action than "here are the caveats".

The problem is that's short-term thinking. Yes, pretending the world is ending unless you do X is a great way to convince people do X -- but only the first time. The second time, people will start to be more skeptical, and it will just get worse from there. It's the boy who cries wolf problem. It creates a vicious cycle where they have to keep upping the rhetoric, and the truth becomes more and more of a casualty.

If they saw their mission as simply conveying information, and relying on people to make the best choices on their own, things would have been very different. In that case, they would have built a lot of credibility. Being uncertain may discourage people in the short term, but in the long term, when they see how the science changes[1], they'll come to appreciate that they weren't sold a bunch of absolutes. People will develop trust in the information presented, and end up making better decisions.

Ironically, public health would probably have been able to accomplish more of their long term goals by not focusing on those goals, and just being honest about what they know and don't know instead.

[1] It's really weird that it's become the norm to refer to "science" as this monolithic thing, instead of saying something like "a new study came out".
Well, that's because the goal isn't "public health" (which is a nonsense phrase, anyway, as health is a feature of individuals).  It's control.  The people who are on TV making these pronouncements aren't doctors (despite the fact that they have Ph.Ds in medicine) or scientists; they are career bureaucrats.  I've seen as many patients in the last 20 years as Anthony Fauci (hint: it's zero).  So their number one goal is to make you do what they want.  Your actual health is secondary, at best...
You don't have a fucking clue what public health means, and that's ok, but it doesn't mean that public health is nonsense. The vast majority of people live in an interdependent society, and the health of one/some can certainly impact the health of many/all. You're a dumbass, but even you can grasp that.
I know what the people who would like to use human interaction as a justification for totalitarian control consider "public health" to mean.  I just reject their arbitrarily asserted definition.  If the fact that every action we take effects others is a justification for interference in personal liberty, when are you going to stop breathing so the oxygen you are using can be better used by the many, many people smarter than you are?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Reckall on August 04, 2021, 06:05:06 PM
Today, however, those who believe in "science" are derided. Fine. What the alternative is, so?
The alternative is not treating science as a belief system, with priests and holy dogma, but instead treating it as what it is, a highly effective set of systems for developing knowledge.

I could have answered you earlier, but I decided to see others' reactions.

Notice how my very first line was:

"The problem is not "referring to science" by itself. Science is not monolithic: it learns, changes and evolves everyday. There is a reason as why they had propeller planes in WWII and we have jets today."

But I also added:

Planes, however, tend to stay up.

It was funny to see, out of the gate, Shrieking Banshee trying to shoot down my idea that, today, having faith in science gets you derided without any alternative being offered - with a derisive post lacking any alternative, but... OK 😂

However, we live in times were choices must be made. "Important Discourses About Science" cannot anymore hide themselves behind the finger of "We will never be taken to task anyway". Today what you choose to believe in will have practical, possible life-and death, results on yourself and others.

Since this pandemic exploded I choose to follow the best scientific opinion. I didn't wear a mask at the beginning, going against the grain, because they suggested that it was actually dangerous. Then they changed their tune and I changed my behaviour. It didn't surprise me, however, that there was a learning process about COVID and the best way to protect yourself and those around you.

Eirikrautha called the examples I made "strawmen" without putting any effort in debunking a single one. I guess the knowledge that they are strawmen comes from throwing bones and consulting the Loa - the very pinnacle of how human's doubts are answered. Yet, two words about why Voodoo is a better alternative would have been welcome.

I'm still curious about how many people know that virii work by injecting their own DNA or RNA into cells - so you risk to get a dose of that from them anyway. No one tackled this question. Maybe the Loa were busy.

I lost my father to COVID. Due to sheer misfortune, my 85 years old mother had to undergo emergency surgery two days after my father died. She spent two weeks in the hospital at the height of the pandemic in Northern Italy. When she came home I had to worry about her, myself and my girlfriend.

I hadn't the luxury to be able to deride this pandemic. While people like Spinachat laughed about the "Kung-Flu" (*) I had to choose how to navigate an unprecedented, dangerous event that already had revealed itself as deadly. I choose to follow the best scientific advice, paired with my own knowledge of the matter (knowledge born from reading a couple of books during the years, out of sheer curiosity about the matter, nothing more). I see many dissenting voices. Most of them come from the country that had 25% of the dead with only 4% of the World population - so maybe these voices can be useful as an explanation, for sure not as an example to follow. They also show how absolutely nothing was learned.

I and my family avoided COVID and now we all had our second shot. Were we lucky? Maybe. Some friends got it. One got "long-COVID" last Summer and, after one year, he is still listless (BTW, that the impact of a pandemic on the individual and the society as a whole is wider than the simple count of the dead is another topic seldom touched by the "Science is imperfect!" warriors from the Captain Obvious ship).

I don't wish COVID to the unvaccinated. It is petty and vulgar (what I actually hope for is that they get COVID without me wishing for it). I can only point out how, for every single negative answer here, there isn't a single answer to the question "So, what you think should be done during a pandemic? And why it should be a better solution?

(*) Just to be clear: Spinachat and the like are a boon to the society; they give a summary of all the current idiocy surrounding an event in a single post, allowing you to understand how not to think without losing precious time scrounging the internet. Twitter is another good place to find people who will never be in line to be the next who will split the atom.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Reckall on August 04, 2021, 06:09:39 PM
You don't have a fucking clue what public health means, and that's ok, but it doesn't mean that public health is nonsense. The vast majority of people live in an interdependent society, and the health of one/some can certainly impact the health of many/all. You're a dumbass, but even you can grasp that.

We dealt with trivial respiratory viruses long before 2020.

True. The way we dealt with the trivial Spanish Flu became something for the history books.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on August 04, 2021, 06:33:26 PM
I could have answered you earlier, but I decided to see others' reactions.

Notice how my very first line was:

....

But I also added:
Your whole post was pretty unclear.

Since this pandemic exploded I choose to follow the best scientific opinion. I didn't wear a mask at the beginning, going against the grain, because they suggested that it was actually dangerous. Then they changed their tune and I changed my behaviour. It didn't surprise me, however, that there was a learning process about COVID and the best way to protect yourself and those around you.
There was a learning process, but you got it backwards.

I thought a mask was reasonable at the beginning. Not because there was a lot of evidence, because there wasn't. The number of mask studies in early 2020 was small, very low on the tiers of evidence-based medicine (small sample sets, not randomized etc.), focused on clinical environments not use among the public, and mostly involved N95s or occasionally surgical masks, and even then the results weren't strong. But in a crisis, you can't wait for conclusive evidence. You have to act, before all the information is in. So it would have been reasonable, but they were recommending against it.

But it didn't take long before it became clear covid-19 was primarily spread via aerosolization, not droplets or fomites. This explained how people on busses in China could catch the disease, even though they were facing the other way and many rows behind the infected person. It explained all the viral particles they detected, hours or days later, in ventilation systems. It explained the superspreader events, where almost every infection occurred indoors. It explained the association between talking and catching the disease. Among other lines of evidence.

This destroyed the rationale behind masks, because even N95 masks can't stop the typical aerosolized particle. It also destroyed the rationale behind cleaning surfaces and cleaning hands, and made things like plastic barriers counter-indicated. If the primary method of transmission is tiny particles that can stay airborne for hours and days in areas with limited airflow, and that build up over time, particularly when people have their mouth open when singing or talking, and which can pass through masks as if they weren't there, then we should have switched gears and started to worry more about things like ventilation. But that remained a secondary concern.

And then the Danmask study came out, the first large randomized trial of cloth masks worn by the general public, and it showed no effect. And the numerous statistical analyses of countries, regions, and cities before and after mask mandates, which in toto didn't show any effect. (Sure, with hundreds of natural experiments, a few showed significant results if looked at in isolation, but that's how statistics work. If you throw a 1d20 once, there's only a 5% chance of rolling a 20. But if you roll a couple hundred times, then you'll probably roll a few 20s.) These were just nails in the coffin of the idea that masks worked.

But politicians and bureaucrats kept imposing mask mandates, against all the science. They keep advising people to wear them, even when there are known adverse effects, like inhibiting the development of basic social skills in children. It took until this April for the CDC to finally admit that covid-19 was primarily spread via aerosolization, but then we were talking about multiple masks.

Mask mandates are based on Science!, the religion. Real science is looking at the evidence.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 04, 2021, 06:36:30 PM
It was sold as a 100% slamdunk cure. Now its a 'aid' for when you do get infected anyway. This whole thing is sketchy as hell.
I've said it before, but I think public health's biggest failure during the pandemic was messaging. Their primary goal should have been to share information. Unvarnished information, with all the warts, including those nasty uncertainty bars. It's fine if the science changes[1].

But rather than being purely information-oriented, they seem to have been mostly goal oriented, primarily aimed at changing people's behaviors. Even when they don't lie (and they eventually do lie; it's a natural consequence of this approach), they often convey a higher degree of certainty than is merited, because "this is absolutely effective" makes a more compelling case for action than "here are the caveats".

The problem is that's short-term thinking. Yes, pretending the world is ending unless you do X is a great way to convince people do X -- but only the first time. The second time, people will start to be more skeptical, and it will just get worse from there. It's the boy who cries wolf problem. It creates a vicious cycle where they have to keep upping the rhetoric, and the truth becomes more and more of a casualty.

If they saw their mission as simply conveying information, and relying on people to make the best choices on their own, things would have been very different. In that case, they would have built a lot of credibility. Being uncertain may discourage people in the short term, but in the long term, when they see how the science changes[1], they'll come to appreciate that they weren't sold a bunch of absolutes. People will develop trust in the information presented, and end up making better decisions.

Ironically, public health would probably have been able to accomplish more of their long term goals by not focusing on those goals, and just being honest about what they know and don't know instead.

[1] It's really weird that it's become the norm to refer to "science" as this monolithic thing, instead of saying something like "a new study came out".
Well, that's because the goal isn't "public health" (which is a nonsense phrase, anyway, as health is a feature of individuals).  It's control.  The people who are on TV making these pronouncements aren't doctors (despite the fact that they have Ph.Ds in medicine) or scientists; they are career bureaucrats.  I've seen as many patients in the last 20 years as Anthony Fauci (hint: it's zero).  So their number one goal is to make you do what they want.  Your actual health is secondary, at best...
You don't have a fucking clue what public health means, and that's ok, but it doesn't mean that public health is nonsense. The vast majority of people live in an interdependent society, and the health of one/some can certainly impact the health of many/all. You're a dumbass, but even you can grasp that.
I know what the people who would like to use human interaction as a justification for totalitarian control consider "public health" to mean.  I just reject their arbitrarily asserted definition.  If the fact that every action we take effects others is a justification for interference in personal liberty, when are you going to stop breathing so the oxygen you are using can be better used by the many, many people smarter than you are?
You have my pity.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Eirikrautha on August 04, 2021, 06:41:59 PM
It was sold as a 100% slamdunk cure. Now its a 'aid' for when you do get infected anyway. This whole thing is sketchy as hell.
I've said it before, but I think public health's biggest failure during the pandemic was messaging. Their primary goal should have been to share information. Unvarnished information, with all the warts, including those nasty uncertainty bars. It's fine if the science changes[1].

But rather than being purely information-oriented, they seem to have been mostly goal oriented, primarily aimed at changing people's behaviors. Even when they don't lie (and they eventually do lie; it's a natural consequence of this approach), they often convey a higher degree of certainty than is merited, because "this is absolutely effective" makes a more compelling case for action than "here are the caveats".

The problem is that's short-term thinking. Yes, pretending the world is ending unless you do X is a great way to convince people do X -- but only the first time. The second time, people will start to be more skeptical, and it will just get worse from there. It's the boy who cries wolf problem. It creates a vicious cycle where they have to keep upping the rhetoric, and the truth becomes more and more of a casualty.

If they saw their mission as simply conveying information, and relying on people to make the best choices on their own, things would have been very different. In that case, they would have built a lot of credibility. Being uncertain may discourage people in the short term, but in the long term, when they see how the science changes[1], they'll come to appreciate that they weren't sold a bunch of absolutes. People will develop trust in the information presented, and end up making better decisions.

Ironically, public health would probably have been able to accomplish more of their long term goals by not focusing on those goals, and just being honest about what they know and don't know instead.

[1] It's really weird that it's become the norm to refer to "science" as this monolithic thing, instead of saying something like "a new study came out".
Well, that's because the goal isn't "public health" (which is a nonsense phrase, anyway, as health is a feature of individuals).  It's control.  The people who are on TV making these pronouncements aren't doctors (despite the fact that they have Ph.Ds in medicine) or scientists; they are career bureaucrats.  I've seen as many patients in the last 20 years as Anthony Fauci (hint: it's zero).  So their number one goal is to make you do what they want.  Your actual health is secondary, at best...
You don't have a fucking clue what public health means, and that's ok, but it doesn't mean that public health is nonsense. The vast majority of people live in an interdependent society, and the health of one/some can certainly impact the health of many/all. You're a dumbass, but even you can grasp that.
I know what the people who would like to use human interaction as a justification for totalitarian control consider "public health" to mean.  I just reject their arbitrarily asserted definition.  If the fact that every action we take effects others is a justification for interference in personal liberty, when are you going to stop breathing so the oxygen you are using can be better used by the many, many people smarter than you are?
You have my pity.
Having pity suggests a superiority not in evidence.  You have my contempt.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Shasarak on August 04, 2021, 06:48:59 PM
You have my pity.

You have my contempt.

(https://www.meme-arsenal.com/memes/549b42e2b8b14c458f896febc5f3863c.jpg)
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ratman_tf on August 04, 2021, 06:54:08 PM
I don't wish COVID to the unvaccinated. It is petty and vulgar (what I actually hope for is that they get COVID without me wishing for it). I can only point out how, for every single negative answer here, there isn't a single answer to the question "So, what you think should be done during a pandemic? And why it should be a better solution?

Finally an interesting question.

For myself, there are too many questions to give a solid answer. This is a novel virus, with a sudden spread all over the planet. I think it's safe to say this is the first time we've had quite this kind of pandemic, and times and politics and medicine and technology have changed since previous pandemics.
Notice that in the first few months, people were generally willing to do what seemed prudent. We didn't have much data on the virus and so extreme measure like lockdowns were accepted without too much fuss.
But as the months dragged on into over a year, the details started to come together. People started to question the severity of the restrictions versus the risk of infection. It's nearly impossible to control every single human. Some doink is going to go to work with a sniffle, or break lockdown to attend a wedding. That's the power of viruses. They spread because humans are social creatures and sooner or later we're going to socialize again. Unless we practice some crazy super-lockdown where no one interacts with anyone else for ever.
If Covid was more like Ebola, I think there would have been much less pushback, but it's not. People aren't exploding in the streets.
An important point. During any other epidemic, we quarantied the sick. With Covid, we tried to quarantine everyone. It didn't work because it's just not feasible.

So, I think we're at the point where individuals need to make their own risk assesment. They need to use their best judgement on when to lock down whether to get vaccinated, etc.

I have a question for you. What should be done if it does turn out that there are serious, long term health issues with the vaccinations?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 04, 2021, 06:56:15 PM
It was sold as a 100% slamdunk cure. Now its a 'aid' for when you do get infected anyway. This whole thing is sketchy as hell.
I've said it before, but I think public health's biggest failure during the pandemic was messaging. Their primary goal should have been to share information. Unvarnished information, with all the warts, including those nasty uncertainty bars. It's fine if the science changes[1].

But rather than being purely information-oriented, they seem to have been mostly goal oriented, primarily aimed at changing people's behaviors. Even when they don't lie (and they eventually do lie; it's a natural consequence of this approach), they often convey a higher degree of certainty than is merited, because "this is absolutely effective" makes a more compelling case for action than "here are the caveats".

The problem is that's short-term thinking. Yes, pretending the world is ending unless you do X is a great way to convince people do X -- but only the first time. The second time, people will start to be more skeptical, and it will just get worse from there. It's the boy who cries wolf problem. It creates a vicious cycle where they have to keep upping the rhetoric, and the truth becomes more and more of a casualty.

If they saw their mission as simply conveying information, and relying on people to make the best choices on their own, things would have been very different. In that case, they would have built a lot of credibility. Being uncertain may discourage people in the short term, but in the long term, when they see how the science changes[1], they'll come to appreciate that they weren't sold a bunch of absolutes. People will develop trust in the information presented, and end up making better decisions.

Ironically, public health would probably have been able to accomplish more of their long term goals by not focusing on those goals, and just being honest about what they know and don't know instead.

[1] It's really weird that it's become the norm to refer to "science" as this monolithic thing, instead of saying something like "a new study came out".
Well, that's because the goal isn't "public health" (which is a nonsense phrase, anyway, as health is a feature of individuals).  It's control.  The people who are on TV making these pronouncements aren't doctors (despite the fact that they have Ph.Ds in medicine) or scientists; they are career bureaucrats.  I've seen as many patients in the last 20 years as Anthony Fauci (hint: it's zero).  So their number one goal is to make you do what they want.  Your actual health is secondary, at best...
You don't have a fucking clue what public health means, and that's ok, but it doesn't mean that public health is nonsense. The vast majority of people live in an interdependent society, and the health of one/some can certainly impact the health of many/all. You're a dumbass, but even you can grasp that.
I know what the people who would like to use human interaction as a justification for totalitarian control consider "public health" to mean.  I just reject their arbitrarily asserted definition.  If the fact that every action we take effects others is a justification for interference in personal liberty, when are you going to stop breathing so the oxygen you are using can be better used by the many, many people smarter than you are?
You have my pity.
Having pity suggests a superiority not in evidence.  You have my contempt.
There's a lot of evidence you choose to ignore (or cannot comprehend). Thus, I pity you.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Eirikrautha on August 04, 2021, 07:03:48 PM
Eirikrautha called the examples I made "strawmen" without putting any effort in debunking a single one. I guess the knowledge that they are strawmen comes from throwing bones and consulting the Loa - the very pinnacle of how human's doubts are answered. Yet, two words about why Voodoo is a better alternative would have been welcome.
Why would I put effort into rebutting something that neither I nor anyone else I have seen on this thread have asserted?  That's the point of strawmen.  It is an rhetorical strategy to reverse the burden of proof by arguing against something no one has said.  Quote a post of mine or that I've supported you'd like me to defend.  Otherwise, your entire post was verbal masturbation, as it doesn't address any of the actual objections to the handling of this pandemic.

Covid 19 is a virus-caused disease that can be deadly to a small percentage of the old, infirm, or otherwise unhealth people.  Anyone under 70 years old without a serious health issue has a better then 99.5% chance of surviving.  Even those in serious danger because of age or health have a better then 95% chance of survival, at worst.  Rational risk assessment starts with those facts.  Though, while understandable, people who are affected by one of those particular deaths are hardly the people to look to for rational evaluations.  You have my sympathies, but your pain does not trump reality.

Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 04, 2021, 07:24:23 PM
Eirikrautha called the examples I made "strawmen" without putting any effort in debunking a single one. I guess the knowledge that they are strawmen comes from throwing bones and consulting the Loa - the very pinnacle of how human's doubts are answered. Yet, two words about why Voodoo is a better alternative would have been welcome.
Why would I put effort into rebutting something that neither I nor anyone else I have seen on this thread have asserted?  That's the point of strawmen.  It is an rhetorical strategy to reverse the burden of proof by arguing against something no one has said.  Quote a post of mine or that I've supported you'd like me to defend.  Otherwise, your entire post was verbal masturbation, as it doesn't address any of the actual objections to the handling of this pandemic.

Covid 19 is a virus-caused disease that can be deadly to a small percentage of the old, infirm, or otherwise unhealth people.  Anyone under 70 years old without a serious health issue has a better then 99.5% chance of surviving.  Even those in serious danger because of age or health have a better then 95% chance of survival, at worst.  Rational risk assessment starts with those facts.  Though, while understandable, people who are affected by one of those particular deaths are hardly the people to look to for rational evaluations.  You have my sympathies, but your pain does not trump reality.
Survival does not mean unharmed. Not all that survive fully recover. This reality trumps your lack of empathy.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on August 04, 2021, 09:41:00 PM
Residents in San Diego, California (nominally still part of the USA) happily sign a petition to IMPRISON anyone who refuses the Chyna Virus jab.

Hahahah that's not going to happen! What's probably going to happen is something similar to that Obama Care rule, if you can afford health insurance and chooses not to, than you'd be paying a little extra on your taxes. Giving these tweets the benefit of a doubt only feeds the paranoid and increases the divide. We got enough misinformation as it is, and that's just silly.
You know the mandate got overturned, right?

The breadth and depth of the topics for which you're completely full of shit knows no bounds.

No, it did not. (https://www.forbes.com/sites/alisondurkee/2021/06/17/supreme-court-upholds-affordable-care-act/?sh=b67d64b372ca)
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on August 04, 2021, 09:43:22 PM
The vaccinations aren't even FDA approved, for crying out loud.

They have emergency approval and will gain final approval next month (https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/03/us/politics/pfizer-vaccine-approval.html).
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on August 04, 2021, 09:45:03 PM
It was sold as a 100% slamdunk cure. Now its a 'aid' for when you do get infected anyway. This whole thing is sketchy as hell.

It was never sold as a 100% cure. They accurately reported the percentage effectiveness against each strain as it arose and none of those were 100%.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Zelen on August 04, 2021, 09:45:08 PM
Masks were tried in pretty much every country / locale in the world. They didn't stop the spread anywhere.
Shutdowns were tried in pretty much every country / locale in the world. They didn't stop the spread anywhere.

In the US, cases fell naturally in spring following the seasonal variation. The vaccines had nominal (~5%) penetration into the overall population during the period of greatest decline.

Now here we are 6 months later, with the South US experiencing normal seasonal variation. In most places we are looking at 80-90% vaccination rates among the vulnerable (65+) population. Most locations in the US are similar.

Israel is more than 90% vaccinated and going into full masking both indoors and outdoors(!). Lockdowns are coming soon.
Iceland has the world's 3rd highest vaccinations and currently has more cases than they've ever had. They are saying restrictions for the next 15 years.
Australia is on complete military-enforced lockdown and still experiencing a spike in "cases" because 13 people 80-90 years old died.

Knowing mask mandates didn't work before, should we advocate for them?
Knowing lockdowns didn't work before, should we advocate for them?

Are we okay with physically assaulting people, and killing them, to enforce these policies? Because that's what it takes.

In the past century we had a number of evil governments that used human test subjects to experiment on. In many cases, these experiments provided valuable insights that could save a lot of lives. What's the argument for why we don't do that today?

At what point is it too much? Because it seems like a lot of people only care about this one metric and really aren't considering anything beyond escaping from a current campaign of psychological torture.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ratman_tf on August 04, 2021, 09:59:42 PM
The vaccinations aren't even FDA approved, for crying out loud.

They have emergency approval and will gain final approval next month (https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/03/us/politics/pfizer-vaccine-approval.html).

Good for them. One hurdle down, assuming everything goes well.

But that doesn't change the fact that the government has encouraged mass vaccinations with a vaccine that still only has emergency approval, has immunized themselves from legal responsibility for unforseen side effects, and has discouraged reporting of vaccine side effects.

They've got a long way to go before I even consider getting one of these vaccinations.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ghostmaker on August 04, 2021, 10:03:59 PM
Residents in San Diego, California (nominally still part of the USA) happily sign a petition to IMPRISON anyone who refuses the Chyna Virus jab.

Hahahah that's not going to happen! What's probably going to happen is something similar to that Obama Care rule, if you can afford health insurance and chooses not to, than you'd be paying a little extra on your taxes. Giving these tweets the benefit of a doubt only feeds the paranoid and increases the divide. We got enough misinformation as it is, and that's just silly.
You know the mandate got overturned, right?

The breadth and depth of the topics for which you're completely full of shit knows no bounds.

No, it did not. (https://www.forbes.com/sites/alisondurkee/2021/06/17/supreme-court-upholds-affordable-care-act/?sh=b67d64b372ca)
The mandate penalty is now zero, and has been since 2019.

*shrugs*

You'll have to find some other way to get your tyranny fix.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Reckall on August 05, 2021, 05:12:27 AM
I have a question for you. What should be done if it does turn out that there are serious, long term health issues with the vaccinations?

Tweak the next batch of vaccines. Which still sucks for those vaccinated with the first one. This question, however, ignores a lots of context:

- The vaccines used first had to go through approval. Not everyone of them was accepted. The Russian and Chinese ones aren't accepted by both the EMA and the FDA, for example (the FDA has the list of vaccines authorised "for emergency use" on their front page; the EMA calls this list "safe vaccines"). What does "approval" means? What are the procedures? I do know them. I wonder how many others do.

- Maybe the vaccines will sux. The alternative is COVID (I sometimes wonder why the anti-Vaxxers who consider vaccines more dangerous that "this trivial flu" don't just get a shot of COVID and shut up).

- Seldom, in the tirades against the vaccines, I see "And now let's see what is the alternative - the risk of getting COVID - before making a choice." When this is done, COVID is usually trivialized. I use the work "usually" because this is not the case in Northern Italy. After Bergamo, no one trivializes COVID over here.

- Having COVID out there like wildfire helps the appearance of variants. When that imbecile of Governor DeSantis opened up Florida while the pandemic was on afterburner he didn't simply create a superspreader event: some of the first variants were seen there. It is the variants, Delta in primis, that are causing the current scare, not the original COVID.

- Re: "The Danmask Study", of course many grabbed it as the Lost Tablets from Moses - without looking further for independent analysis.

https://rebelem.com/the-danmask-19-trial-masks-not-effective-to-prevent-covid-19-not-so-fast/

"Clinical Take Home Point: This trial does not answer the question of “do masks reduce transmission of SARS-CoV-2 infection.” While this is what the researchers sought to study, what they actually studied is the compliance rate with a recommendation to wear masks which was low in this cohort.  In a population that predominantly does not wear masks, this trial does not give us information on masks effects with more widespread mask wearing in the community. Additionally, with no clarity on how other public health measures were upheld and whether masks were worn correctly, there are too many confounders that limit the results of this trial. Until better evidence is available, wearing a mask is simple, has minimal harm, and should be recommended at this time.

This is one example. Other independent analysis reached the same conclusion. "Research" should never end once you find someone that agrees with you.

- Last but not least, we have the usual, very basic factoid: These "Kung-flu" guys come from "the bestest country in the World in everythingest!!!!11", they still managed to have 25% of the World deaths with only 4% of the population, and they are still lecturing?? America, right now, is The Shining City On A Hill About What Not To Do During A Pandemic. Climb down from your high horse, fix your country, exercise some self-criticism and leave alone countries who did better than you.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ratman_tf on August 05, 2021, 05:30:37 AM
I have a question for you. What should be done if it does turn out that there are serious, long term health issues with the vaccinations?

Tweak the next batch of vaccines. Which still sucks for those vaccinated with the first one. This question, however, ignores a lots of context:

- The vaccines used first had to go through approval. Not everyone of them was accepted. The Russian and Chinese ones aren't accepted by both the EMA and the FDA, for example (the FDA has the list of vaccines authorised "for emergency use" on their front page; the EMA calls this list "safe vaccines"). What does "approval" means? What are the procedures? I do know them. I wonder how many others do.

- Maybe the vaccines will sux. The alternative is COVID (I sometimes wonder why the anti-Vaxxers who consider vaccines more dangerous that "this trivial flu" don't just get a shot of COVID and shut up).

There are a lot of silly takes regarding Covid. There are people wearing masks with flaps that open up so they can eat while "masking".
https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-52728998

Personally, I wouldn't want a shot of flu in any case. Flu sucks. And I don't know how dangerous Covid is compared to the vaccinations. We only have a few months of data, and those data are incomplete by design.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Reckall on August 05, 2021, 06:23:35 AM
There are a lot of silly takes regarding Covid. There are people wearing masks with flaps that open up so they can eat while "masking".
https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-52728998

Personally, I wouldn't want a shot of flu in any case. Flu sucks. And I don't know how dangerous Covid is compared to the vaccinations. We only have a few months of data, and those data are incomplete by design.

How many people died or are suffering from high-morbidity long term damage after COVID compared to how many people died or are suffering from high-morbidity long term damage from vaccines? It is that simple.

Maybe I'll have two headed kids. For sure the vaccine gave me two days of fever. COVID can give me from long-term to permanent organ damage:

From Mayo Clinic:

"Although COVID-19 is seen as a disease that primarily affects the lungs, it can damage many other organs as well. This organ damage may increase the risk of long-term health problems. Organs that may be affected by COVID-19 include:

Heart. Imaging tests taken months after recovery from COVID-19 have shown lasting damage to the heart muscle, even in people who experienced only mild COVID-19 symptoms. This may increase the risk of heart failure or other heart complications in the future.

Lungs. The type of pneumonia often associated with COVID-19 can cause long-standing damage to the tiny air sacs (alveoli) in the lungs. The resulting scar tissue can lead to long-term breathing problems.

Brain. Even in young people, COVID-19 can cause strokes, seizures and Guillain-Barre syndrome — a condition that causes temporary paralysis. COVID-19 may also increase the risk of developing Parkinson's disease and Alzheimer's disease."


Also, notice how the "indistinct future" is the last ditch refuge of noVaxxers: "I don't know if the vaccines will have unforeseen consequences..." I'll think about that bridge when (and if) I get to it. Right now I have to think about a very scary and clear present.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on August 05, 2021, 06:29:16 AM
The vaccinations aren't even FDA approved, for crying out loud.

They have emergency approval and will gain final approval next month (https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/03/us/politics/pfizer-vaccine-approval.html).

Good for them. One hurdle down, assuming everything goes well.

But that doesn't change the fact that the government has encouraged mass vaccinations with a vaccine that still only has emergency approval, has immunized themselves from legal responsibility for unforseen side effects, and has discouraged reporting of vaccine side effects.

They've got a long way to go before I even consider getting one of these vaccinations.
They're rushing the final approval. It's getting a fair amount of criticism, and not just from partisan sources. (For instance, Kevin Drum, formerly of Mother Jones, doesn't think it should be rushed.)

The government has immunized the pharma companies, not the government itself. Though it's often difficult to sue government entities.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on August 05, 2021, 06:41:08 AM
How many people died or are suffering from high-morbidity long term damage after COVID compared to how many people died or are suffering from high-morbidity long term damage from vaccines? It is that simple.
It varies. For the elderly, there's a compelling case for the vaccines. But for younger people, especially those who aren't obese, the trade off between the known risks of the vaccines and the possible chance of an infection is much murkier, and there doesn't seem to any good argument for jabbing children.

Also, notice how the "indistinct future" is the last ditch refuge of noVaxxers: "I don't know if the vaccines will have unforeseen consequences..." I'll think about that bridge when (and if) I get to it. Right now I have to think about a very scary and clear present.
While it's about economics not risk assessment, you reminded me of Bastiat's parable on the seen and unseen, because he highlights the importance of looking at all possible consequences of a situation. If you just consider the immediate, obvious effects there's a very good chance the conclusions you draw will be completely wrong. The unknown long term side effects of the vaccines must be considered in any risk assessment.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ghostmaker on August 05, 2021, 08:00:29 AM
The vaccinations aren't even FDA approved, for crying out loud.

They have emergency approval and will gain final approval next month (https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/03/us/politics/pfizer-vaccine-approval.html).

Good for them. One hurdle down, assuming everything goes well.

But that doesn't change the fact that the government has encouraged mass vaccinations with a vaccine that still only has emergency approval, has immunized themselves from legal responsibility for unforseen side effects, and has discouraged reporting of vaccine side effects.

They've got a long way to go before I even consider getting one of these vaccinations.
They're rushing the final approval. It's getting a fair amount of criticism, and not just from partisan sources. (For instance, Kevin Drum, formerly of Mother Jones, doesn't think it should be rushed.)

The government has immunized the pharma companies, not the government itself. Though it's often difficult to sue government entities.
Government promises of immunity are worth precisely the paper they're printed on.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Reckall on August 05, 2021, 08:10:35 AM
How many people died or are suffering from high-morbidity long term damage after COVID compared to how many people died or are suffering from high-morbidity long term damage from vaccines? It is that simple.
Quote
It varies. For the elderly, there's a compelling case for the vaccines. But for younger people, especially those who aren't obese, the trade off between the known risks of the vaccines and the possible chance of an infection is much murkier, and there doesn't seem to any good argument for jabbing children.

Brain. Even in young people, COVID-19 can cause strokes, seizures and Guillain-Barre syndrome — a condition that causes temporary paralysis. (from a post just above yours)
Quote
Also, notice how the "indistinct future" is the last ditch refuge of noVaxxers: "I don't know if the vaccines will have unforeseen consequences..." I'll think about that bridge when (and if) I get to it. Right now I have to think about a very scary and clear present.
While it's about economics not risk assessment, you reminded me of Bastiat's parable on the seen and unseen, because he highlights the importance of looking at all possible consequences of a situation...

...In the time we are given, I guess. And COVID took the World by storm. Do you want to wait more? Fine. Let's consider this solution. We know for certain that unchecked COVID causes variants. While most virii lose power with every generational cycle, this is not the case with this one. As we are seeing, it's already the variants the cause of the resurging scare.

We also know that "long term effects" of vaccines is something being studied since vaccines were created. Two and half billions people being vaccinated in a six months span is an unprecedented sample. For every informational article that patently describes why these COVID vaccines are safe you find one article that just screams danger - while sadly lacking counterfactual data.

And in this situation the best you can think of is "No! Wait!" Seriously? If a tiger is about to jump you, you don't react until you have evaluated the impact of killing her on a dwindling species? Or if getting tiger blood on your clothes can, one day, give you AIDS? Really?

And I'm still waiting for an answer to my basic question, a question I see being avoided everywhere I post it: 4% of World population, 25% of the dead by COVID. How could this happen?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ghostmaker on August 05, 2021, 08:14:22 AM
How many people died or are suffering from high-morbidity long term damage after COVID compared to how many people died or are suffering from high-morbidity long term damage from vaccines? It is that simple.
Quote
It varies. For the elderly, there's a compelling case for the vaccines. But for younger people, especially those who aren't obese, the trade off between the known risks of the vaccines and the possible chance of an infection is much murkier, and there doesn't seem to any good argument for jabbing children.

Brain. Even in young people, COVID-19 can cause strokes, seizures and Guillain-Barre syndrome — a condition that causes temporary paralysis. (from a post just above yours)
Quote
Also, notice how the "indistinct future" is the last ditch refuge of noVaxxers: "I don't know if the vaccines will have unforeseen consequences..." I'll think about that bridge when (and if) I get to it. Right now I have to think about a very scary and clear present.
While it's about economics not risk assessment, you reminded me of Bastiat's parable on the seen and unseen, because he highlights the importance of looking at all possible consequences of a situation...

...In the time we are given, I guess. And COVID took the World by storm. Do you want to wait more? Fine. Let's consider this solution. We know for certain that unchecked COVID causes variants. While most virii lose power with every generational cycle, this is not the case with this one. As we are seeing, it's already the variants the cause of the resurging scare.

We also know that "long term effects" of vaccines is something being studied since vaccines were created. Two and half billions people being vaccinated in a six months span is an unprecedented sample. For every informational article that patently describes why these COVID vaccines are safe you find one article that just screams danger - while sadly lacking counterfactual data.

And in this situation the best you can think of is "No! Wait!" Seriously? If a tiger is about to jump you, you don't react until you have evaluated the impact of killing her on a dwindling species? Or if getting tiger blood on your clothes can, one day, give you AIDS? Really?

And I'm still waiting for an answer to my basic question, a question I see being avoided everywhere I post it: 4% of World population, 25% of the dead by COVID. How could this happen?
Ask the Chinese. If you dare.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Reckall on August 05, 2021, 08:26:11 AM
How many people died or are suffering from high-morbidity long term damage after COVID compared to how many people died or are suffering from high-morbidity long term damage from vaccines? It is that simple.
Quote
It varies. For the elderly, there's a compelling case for the vaccines. But for younger people, especially those who aren't obese, the trade off between the known risks of the vaccines and the possible chance of an infection is much murkier, and there doesn't seem to any good argument for jabbing children.

Brain. Even in young people, COVID-19 can cause strokes, seizures and Guillain-Barre syndrome — a condition that causes temporary paralysis. (from a post just above yours)
Quote
Also, notice how the "indistinct future" is the last ditch refuge of noVaxxers: "I don't know if the vaccines will have unforeseen consequences..." I'll think about that bridge when (and if) I get to it. Right now I have to think about a very scary and clear present.
While it's about economics not risk assessment, you reminded me of Bastiat's parable on the seen and unseen, because he highlights the importance of looking at all possible consequences of a situation...

...In the time we are given, I guess. And COVID took the World by storm. Do you want to wait more? Fine. Let's consider this solution. We know for certain that unchecked COVID causes variants. While most virii lose power with every generational cycle, this is not the case with this one. As we are seeing, it's already the variants the cause of the resurging scare.

We also know that "long term effects" of vaccines is something being studied since vaccines were created. Two and half billions people being vaccinated in a six months span is an unprecedented sample. For every informational article that patently describes why these COVID vaccines are safe you find one article that just screams danger - while sadly lacking counterfactual data.

And in this situation the best you can think of is "No! Wait!" Seriously? If a tiger is about to jump you, you don't react until you have evaluated the impact of killing her on a dwindling species? Or if getting tiger blood on your clothes can, one day, give you AIDS? Really?

And I'm still waiting for an answer to my basic question, a question I see being avoided everywhere I post it: 4% of World population, 25% of the dead by COVID. How could this happen?
Ask the Chinese. If you dare.

Are you telling me that, should the Chinese Army invade the US, the US will fold due to random squabbles about helmets and local governors declaring "There is no emergency, send the troops home, we can't have a deployed Army ruin Spring Break"?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 05, 2021, 08:41:59 AM
How many people died or are suffering from high-morbidity long term damage after COVID compared to how many people died or are suffering from high-morbidity long term damage from vaccines? It is that simple.
Quote
It varies. For the elderly, there's a compelling case for the vaccines. But for younger people, especially those who aren't obese, the trade off between the known risks of the vaccines and the possible chance of an infection is much murkier, and there doesn't seem to any good argument for jabbing children.

Brain. Even in young people, COVID-19 can cause strokes, seizures and Guillain-Barre syndrome — a condition that causes temporary paralysis. (from a post just above yours)
Quote
Also, notice how the "indistinct future" is the last ditch refuge of noVaxxers: "I don't know if the vaccines will have unforeseen consequences..." I'll think about that bridge when (and if) I get to it. Right now I have to think about a very scary and clear present.
While it's about economics not risk assessment, you reminded me of Bastiat's parable on the seen and unseen, because he highlights the importance of looking at all possible consequences of a situation...

...In the time we are given, I guess. And COVID took the World by storm. Do you want to wait more? Fine. Let's consider this solution. We know for certain that unchecked COVID causes variants. While most virii lose power with every generational cycle, this is not the case with this one. As we are seeing, it's already the variants the cause of the resurging scare.

We also know that "long term effects" of vaccines is something being studied since vaccines were created. Two and half billions people being vaccinated in a six months span is an unprecedented sample. For every informational article that patently describes why these COVID vaccines are safe you find one article that just screams danger - while sadly lacking counterfactual data.

And in this situation the best you can think of is "No! Wait!" Seriously? If a tiger is about to jump you, you don't react until you have evaluated the impact of killing her on a dwindling species? Or if getting tiger blood on your clothes can, one day, give you AIDS? Really?

And I'm still waiting for an answer to my basic question, a question I see being avoided everywhere I post it: 4% of World population, 25% of the dead by COVID. How could this happen?
Ask the Chinese. If you dare.

Are you telling me that, should the Chinese Army invade the US, the US will fold due to random squabbles about helmets and local governors declaring "There is no emergency, send the troops home, we can't have a deployed Army ruin Spring Break"?
I live in Florida. I have no doubts my governor will do whatever it takes to increase his chances with his political base...even if it were to lead to their deaths. So, yeah. I can see it.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ghostmaker on August 05, 2021, 09:12:27 AM
How many people died or are suffering from high-morbidity long term damage after COVID compared to how many people died or are suffering from high-morbidity long term damage from vaccines? It is that simple.
Quote
It varies. For the elderly, there's a compelling case for the vaccines. But for younger people, especially those who aren't obese, the trade off between the known risks of the vaccines and the possible chance of an infection is much murkier, and there doesn't seem to any good argument for jabbing children.

Brain. Even in young people, COVID-19 can cause strokes, seizures and Guillain-Barre syndrome — a condition that causes temporary paralysis. (from a post just above yours)
Quote
Also, notice how the "indistinct future" is the last ditch refuge of noVaxxers: "I don't know if the vaccines will have unforeseen consequences..." I'll think about that bridge when (and if) I get to it. Right now I have to think about a very scary and clear present.
While it's about economics not risk assessment, you reminded me of Bastiat's parable on the seen and unseen, because he highlights the importance of looking at all possible consequences of a situation...

...In the time we are given, I guess. And COVID took the World by storm. Do you want to wait more? Fine. Let's consider this solution. We know for certain that unchecked COVID causes variants. While most virii lose power with every generational cycle, this is not the case with this one. As we are seeing, it's already the variants the cause of the resurging scare.

We also know that "long term effects" of vaccines is something being studied since vaccines were created. Two and half billions people being vaccinated in a six months span is an unprecedented sample. For every informational article that patently describes why these COVID vaccines are safe you find one article that just screams danger - while sadly lacking counterfactual data.

And in this situation the best you can think of is "No! Wait!" Seriously? If a tiger is about to jump you, you don't react until you have evaluated the impact of killing her on a dwindling species? Or if getting tiger blood on your clothes can, one day, give you AIDS? Really?

And I'm still waiting for an answer to my basic question, a question I see being avoided everywhere I post it: 4% of World population, 25% of the dead by COVID. How could this happen?
Ask the Chinese. If you dare.

Are you telling me that, should the Chinese Army invade the US, the US will fold due to random squabbles about helmets and local governors declaring "There is no emergency, send the troops home, we can't have a deployed Army ruin Spring Break"?
Nope.

You're a bright boy, though. I'm sure you'll figure it out.

If you need help: https://spectatorworld.com/topic/new-york-times-quashed-covid-origins-inquiry/
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Reckall on August 05, 2021, 09:23:34 AM
How many people died or are suffering from high-morbidity long term damage after COVID compared to how many people died or are suffering from high-morbidity long term damage from vaccines? It is that simple.
Quote
It varies. For the elderly, there's a compelling case for the vaccines. But for younger people, especially those who aren't obese, the trade off between the known risks of the vaccines and the possible chance of an infection is much murkier, and there doesn't seem to any good argument for jabbing children.

Brain. Even in young people, COVID-19 can cause strokes, seizures and Guillain-Barre syndrome — a condition that causes temporary paralysis. (from a post just above yours)
Quote
Also, notice how the "indistinct future" is the last ditch refuge of noVaxxers: "I don't know if the vaccines will have unforeseen consequences..." I'll think about that bridge when (and if) I get to it. Right now I have to think about a very scary and clear present.
While it's about economics not risk assessment, you reminded me of Bastiat's parable on the seen and unseen, because he highlights the importance of looking at all possible consequences of a situation...

...In the time we are given, I guess. And COVID took the World by storm. Do you want to wait more? Fine. Let's consider this solution. We know for certain that unchecked COVID causes variants. While most virii lose power with every generational cycle, this is not the case with this one. As we are seeing, it's already the variants the cause of the resurging scare.

We also know that "long term effects" of vaccines is something being studied since vaccines were created. Two and half billions people being vaccinated in a six months span is an unprecedented sample. For every informational article that patently describes why these COVID vaccines are safe you find one article that just screams danger - while sadly lacking counterfactual data.

And in this situation the best you can think of is "No! Wait!" Seriously? If a tiger is about to jump you, you don't react until you have evaluated the impact of killing her on a dwindling species? Or if getting tiger blood on your clothes can, one day, give you AIDS? Really?

And I'm still waiting for an answer to my basic question, a question I see being avoided everywhere I post it: 4% of World population, 25% of the dead by COVID. How could this happen?
Ask the Chinese. If you dare.

Are you telling me that, should the Chinese Army invade the US, the US will fold due to random squabbles about helmets and local governors declaring "There is no emergency, send the troops home, we can't have a deployed Army ruin Spring Break"?
I live in Florida. I have no doubts my governor will do whatever it takes to increase his chances with his political base...even if it were to lead to their deaths. So, yeah. I can see it.

Me too:

Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ghostmaker on August 05, 2021, 09:33:20 AM
HappyDerp, continuing to pretend that Andrew Cuomo didn't kill 15,000+ New Yorkers with his policies.

Until Cuomo's doing a perp walk, I don't want to hear shit about anyone else, bitches.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Reckall on August 05, 2021, 09:42:12 AM
How many people died or are suffering from high-morbidity long term damage after COVID compared to how many people died or are suffering from high-morbidity long term damage from vaccines? It is that simple.
Quote
It varies. For the elderly, there's a compelling case for the vaccines. But for younger people, especially those who aren't obese, the trade off between the known risks of the vaccines and the possible chance of an infection is much murkier, and there doesn't seem to any good argument for jabbing children.

Brain. Even in young people, COVID-19 can cause strokes, seizures and Guillain-Barre syndrome — a condition that causes temporary paralysis. (from a post just above yours)
Quote
Also, notice how the "indistinct future" is the last ditch refuge of noVaxxers: "I don't know if the vaccines will have unforeseen consequences..." I'll think about that bridge when (and if) I get to it. Right now I have to think about a very scary and clear present.
While it's about economics not risk assessment, you reminded me of Bastiat's parable on the seen and unseen, because he highlights the importance of looking at all possible consequences of a situation...

...In the time we are given, I guess. And COVID took the World by storm. Do you want to wait more? Fine. Let's consider this solution. We know for certain that unchecked COVID causes variants. While most virii lose power with every generational cycle, this is not the case with this one. As we are seeing, it's already the variants the cause of the resurging scare.

We also know that "long term effects" of vaccines is something being studied since vaccines were created. Two and half billions people being vaccinated in a six months span is an unprecedented sample. For every informational article that patently describes why these COVID vaccines are safe you find one article that just screams danger - while sadly lacking counterfactual data.

And in this situation the best you can think of is "No! Wait!" Seriously? If a tiger is about to jump you, you don't react until you have evaluated the impact of killing her on a dwindling species? Or if getting tiger blood on your clothes can, one day, give you AIDS? Really?

And I'm still waiting for an answer to my basic question, a question I see being avoided everywhere I post it: 4% of World population, 25% of the dead by COVID. How could this happen?
Ask the Chinese. If you dare.

Are you telling me that, should the Chinese Army invade the US, the US will fold due to random squabbles about helmets and local governors declaring "There is no emergency, send the troops home, we can't have a deployed Army ruin Spring Break"?
Nope.

You're a bright boy, though. I'm sure you'll figure it out.

Are you sure you don't work for Evil Hat?  :D

Quote
If you need help: https://spectatorworld.com/topic/new-york-times-quashed-covid-origins-inquiry/

And?

Once the virus reached the US, no matter if from Dr. Evil's Fortress or from a Color Out of Space, how did the US screw up so spectacularly?

But, as I wrote, I never get a direct answer to this question - here being only an example. What I get instead are lectures from these people about the best way to tackle it. ::)
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 05, 2021, 09:45:57 AM
HappyDerp, continuing to pretend that Andrew Cuomo didn't kill 15,000+ New Yorkers with his policies.

Until Cuomo's doing a perp walk, I don't want to hear shit about anyone else, bitches.
I haven't said shit on Coumo, neither for or against. I don't live in NY. He's not my governor. Fuck off now.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: moonsweeper on August 05, 2021, 09:54:08 AM
Also, notice how the "indistinct future" is the last ditch refuge of noVaxxers: "I don't know if the vaccines will have unforeseen consequences..." I'll think about that bridge when (and if) I get to it. Right now I have to think about a very scary and clear present.

Maybe some of us who are questioning the experimental, EUA only, shots aren't very scared and question why some people are going out of their way to muddy the situation. 

- for example (in the US)....
scary new 'delta' variant, huge spike in cases, weekly death rates almost unchanged
no flu deaths last season, FDA pulls PCR test which can't discern between flu/covid,
'breakthrough' cases only counted if person with shot is actually hospitalized'...


And I'm still waiting for an answer to my basic question, a question I see being avoided everywhere I post it: 4% of World population, 25% of the dead by COVID. How could this happen?


- Last but not least, we have the usual, very basic factoid: These "Kung-flu" guys come from "the bestest country in the World in everythingest!!!!11", they still managed to have 25% of the World deaths with only 4% of the population, and they are still lecturing?? America, right now, is The Shining City On A Hill About What Not To Do During A Pandemic. Climb down from your high horse, fix your country, exercise some self-criticism and leave alone countries who did better than you.

And?

Once the virus reached the US, no matter if from Dr. Evil's Fortress or from a Color Out of Space, how did the US screw up so spectacularly?

But, as I wrote, I never get a direct answer to this question - here being only an example. What I get instead are lectures from these people about the best way to tackle it. ::)

Maybe because the US death total is around 14% of the total not 25%.... (and that is assuming China is telling the truth)
Maybe because we have had similar results to the EU meaning there hasn't been much difference on either side of the pond....

https://www.ecdc.europa.eu/en/cases-2019-ncov-eueea

https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#datatracker-home

People might take you seriously if you dialed back the hyperbole and actually examined the questions some of us have raised about the pandemic, the shots, and why information is being suppressed.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Eirikrautha on August 05, 2021, 12:01:30 PM
Heart. Imaging tests taken months after recovery from COVID-19 have shown lasting damage to the heart muscle, even in people who experienced only mild COVID-19 symptoms. This may increase the risk of heart failure or other heart complications in the future.
https://www.statnews.com/2021/05/14/setting-the-record-straight-there-is-no-covid-heart/

The fact is there is no "consensus" as to the long term effects of either Covid or the vaccines.  Statements to the contrary are simply the "science as product" fallacy.  For people who have already had Covid or for whom the chance of complications are small (healthy and under 60), the risk of the disease is less than the risk of the vaccine. 

I know lots of people who had Covid.  I know no one who died or had serious long-term effects from it.  The same is true for everyone else I know.  All of the people who have died in my locality were in nursing homes or were already seriously ill.  I've been vaxxed, simply because I knew my industry was going to mandate it and I wanted it on my terms (single shot, non-mRNA).  Why are the 20-30 year-olds here in good health wrong for not getting vaccinated?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 05, 2021, 12:33:38 PM
Heart. Imaging tests taken months after recovery from COVID-19 have shown lasting damage to the heart muscle, even in people who experienced only mild COVID-19 symptoms. This may increase the risk of heart failure or other heart complications in the future.
https://www.statnews.com/2021/05/14/setting-the-record-straight-there-is-no-covid-heart/

The fact is there is no "consensus" as to the long term effects of either Covid or the vaccines.  Statements to the contrary are simply the "science as product" fallacy.  For people who have already had Covid or for whom the chance of complications are small (healthy and under 60), the risk of the disease is less than the risk of the vaccine. 

I know lots of people who had Covid.  I know no one who died or had serious long-term effects from it.  The same is true for everyone else I know.  All of the people who have died in my locality were in nursing homes or were already seriously ill.  I've been vaxxed, simply because I knew my industry was going to mandate it and I wanted it on my terms (single shot, non-mRNA).  Why are the 20-30 year-olds here in good health wrong for not getting vaccinated?
I've personally seen scores relatively healthy (damn near nobody is "perfectly healthy") individuals in their 30s and 40s with severe Covid-related symptoms in the last few months. I have directly witnessed a few of them die from it. The same is true for everyone else I work alongside.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Eirikrautha on August 05, 2021, 12:39:07 PM
Heart. Imaging tests taken months after recovery from COVID-19 have shown lasting damage to the heart muscle, even in people who experienced only mild COVID-19 symptoms. This may increase the risk of heart failure or other heart complications in the future.
https://www.statnews.com/2021/05/14/setting-the-record-straight-there-is-no-covid-heart/

The fact is there is no "consensus" as to the long term effects of either Covid or the vaccines.  Statements to the contrary are simply the "science as product" fallacy.  For people who have already had Covid or for whom the chance of complications are small (healthy and under 60), the risk of the disease is less than the risk of the vaccine. 

I know lots of people who had Covid.  I know no one who died or had serious long-term effects from it.  The same is true for everyone else I know.  All of the people who have died in my locality were in nursing homes or were already seriously ill.  I've been vaxxed, simply because I knew my industry was going to mandate it and I wanted it on my terms (single shot, non-mRNA).  Why are the 20-30 year-olds here in good health wrong for not getting vaccinated?
I've personally seen scores relatively healthy (damn near nobody is "perfectly healthy") individuals in their 30s and 40s with severe Covid-related symptoms in the last few months. I have directly witnessed a few of them die from it. The same is true for everyone else I work alongside.
"Policeman notes most people he meets while working are criminals!  News at 11!"
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 05, 2021, 12:45:41 PM
Heart. Imaging tests taken months after recovery from COVID-19 have shown lasting damage to the heart muscle, even in people who experienced only mild COVID-19 symptoms. This may increase the risk of heart failure or other heart complications in the future.
https://www.statnews.com/2021/05/14/setting-the-record-straight-there-is-no-covid-heart/

The fact is there is no "consensus" as to the long term effects of either Covid or the vaccines.  Statements to the contrary are simply the "science as product" fallacy.  For people who have already had Covid or for whom the chance of complications are small (healthy and under 60), the risk of the disease is less than the risk of the vaccine. 

I know lots of people who had Covid.  I know no one who died or had serious long-term effects from it.  The same is true for everyone else I know.  All of the people who have died in my locality were in nursing homes or were already seriously ill.  I've been vaxxed, simply because I knew my industry was going to mandate it and I wanted it on my terms (single shot, non-mRNA).  Why are the 20-30 year-olds here in good health wrong for not getting vaccinated?
I've personally seen scores relatively healthy (damn near nobody is "perfectly healthy") individuals in their 30s and 40s with severe Covid-related symptoms in the last few months. I have directly witnessed a few of them die from it. The same is true for everyone else I work alongside.
"Policeman notes most people he meets while working are criminals!  News at 11!"
My point is that young and healthy people are at risk and are dying even if you are in denial. Florida, in particular, is getting hit hard right now. I hear Louisiana is bad too, but I don't have firsthand accounts on that.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: GeekyBugle on August 05, 2021, 12:52:57 PM
Heart. Imaging tests taken months after recovery from COVID-19 have shown lasting damage to the heart muscle, even in people who experienced only mild COVID-19 symptoms. This may increase the risk of heart failure or other heart complications in the future.
https://www.statnews.com/2021/05/14/setting-the-record-straight-there-is-no-covid-heart/

The fact is there is no "consensus" as to the long term effects of either Covid or the vaccines.  Statements to the contrary are simply the "science as product" fallacy.  For people who have already had Covid or for whom the chance of complications are small (healthy and under 60), the risk of the disease is less than the risk of the vaccine. 

I know lots of people who had Covid.  I know no one who died or had serious long-term effects from it.  The same is true for everyone else I know.  All of the people who have died in my locality were in nursing homes or were already seriously ill.  I've been vaxxed, simply because I knew my industry was going to mandate it and I wanted it on my terms (single shot, non-mRNA).  Why are the 20-30 year-olds here in good health wrong for not getting vaccinated?
I've personally seen scores relatively healthy (damn near nobody is "perfectly healthy") individuals in their 30s and 40s with severe Covid-related symptoms in the last few months. I have directly witnessed a few of them die from it. The same is true for everyone else I work alongside.
"Policeman notes most people he meets while working are criminals!  News at 11!"
My point is that young and healthy people are at risk and are dying even if you are in denial. Florida, in particular, is getting hit hard right now. I hear Louisiana is bad too, but I don't have firsthand accounts on that.

firsthand accounts = Anecdotal "evidence"
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on August 05, 2021, 01:22:22 PM
...In the time we are given, I guess. And COVID took the World by storm. Do you want to wait more? Fine. Let's consider this solution. We know for certain that unchecked COVID causes variants. While most virii lose power with every generational cycle, this is not the case with this one. As we are seeing, it's already the variants the cause of the resurging scare.
"Lose power"? These are viruses, not batteries. They don't work like that.

We also know that "long term effects" of vaccines is something being studied since vaccines were created. Two and half billions people being vaccinated in a six months span is an unprecedented sample. For every informational article that patently describes why these COVID vaccines are safe you find one article that just screams danger - while sadly lacking counterfactual data.
No, that just you in your bubble. There are real and severe side effects to the vaccines, and they're widely reported and documented on all credible medical websites. And running human experiments on 2.5 billion people doesn't miraculously cause time dilation. We don't know the long term side effects because it hasn't been long enough.

Why is this such a difficult concept to grasp?

And in this situation the best you can think of is "No! Wait!" Seriously? If a tiger is about to jump you, you don't react until you have evaluated the impact of killing her on a dwindling species? Or if getting tiger blood on your clothes can, one day, give you AIDS? Really?
Covid-19.
19.
2019.
We're in the 8th month of 2021.
If tigers took 2 years to complete a jump, they'd starve in mid air.

And I'm still waiting for an answer to my basic question, a question I see being avoided everywhere I post it: 4% of World population, 25% of the dead by COVID. How could this happen?
Nobody's avoiding your question. It's just there's so much gibberish and misinformation in your posts, that it's exhausting responding to everything, even when it's intelligible. Which is the problem in this case. What's 4%? What's 25%? I'm guessing you might be referring to the proportion of deaths in the US, but you didn't actually say that, so I don't really know. If you want answers, don't make people infer what you fail to say.

Quick answer:

Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mordred Pendragon on August 05, 2021, 01:55:39 PM
Welcome to the new Dark Ages.

Feudalism, theocracy, and serfdom are coming back. Only this time the serfdom is urban instead of agrarian and the theocracy is leftist instead of Abrahamic

The pandemic is just the beginning.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Eirikrautha on August 05, 2021, 03:00:12 PM
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries

Deaths per 1M population:

USA #21
Italy #16

What did Italy do wrong that it had a 128163/4377188 = 2.9% CFR
compared to the US 631362/36190896 = 1.7% CFR?

Why is Italian medicine so incompetent?  What could they have done differently (like the US) to save more of their countrymen from dying from this terrible disease?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: SHARK on August 05, 2021, 03:04:32 PM
How many people died or are suffering from high-morbidity long term damage after COVID compared to how many people died or are suffering from high-morbidity long term damage from vaccines? It is that simple.
Quote
It varies. For the elderly, there's a compelling case for the vaccines. But for younger people, especially those who aren't obese, the trade off between the known risks of the vaccines and the possible chance of an infection is much murkier, and there doesn't seem to any good argument for jabbing children.

Brain. Even in young people, COVID-19 can cause strokes, seizures and Guillain-Barre syndrome — a condition that causes temporary paralysis. (from a post just above yours)
Quote
Also, notice how the "indistinct future" is the last ditch refuge of noVaxxers: "I don't know if the vaccines will have unforeseen consequences..." I'll think about that bridge when (and if) I get to it. Right now I have to think about a very scary and clear present.
While it's about economics not risk assessment, you reminded me of Bastiat's parable on the seen and unseen, because he highlights the importance of looking at all possible consequences of a situation...

...In the time we are given, I guess. And COVID took the World by storm. Do you want to wait more? Fine. Let's consider this solution. We know for certain that unchecked COVID causes variants. While most virii lose power with every generational cycle, this is not the case with this one. As we are seeing, it's already the variants the cause of the resurging scare.

We also know that "long term effects" of vaccines is something being studied since vaccines were created. Two and half billions people being vaccinated in a six months span is an unprecedented sample. For every informational article that patently describes why these COVID vaccines are safe you find one article that just screams danger - while sadly lacking counterfactual data.

And in this situation the best you can think of is "No! Wait!" Seriously? If a tiger is about to jump you, you don't react until you have evaluated the impact of killing her on a dwindling species? Or if getting tiger blood on your clothes can, one day, give you AIDS? Really?

And I'm still waiting for an answer to my basic question, a question I see being avoided everywhere I post it: 4% of World population, 25% of the dead by COVID. How could this happen?
Ask the Chinese. If you dare.

Are you telling me that, should the Chinese Army invade the US, the US will fold due to random squabbles about helmets and local governors declaring "There is no emergency, send the troops home, we can't have a deployed Army ruin Spring Break"?
Nope.

You're a bright boy, though. I'm sure you'll figure it out.

Are you sure you don't work for Evil Hat?  :D

Quote
If you need help: https://spectatorworld.com/topic/new-york-times-quashed-covid-origins-inquiry/

And?

Once the virus reached the US, no matter if from Dr. Evil's Fortress or from a Color Out of Space, how did the US screw up so spectacularly?

But, as I wrote, I never get a direct answer to this question - here being only an example. What I get instead are lectures from these people about the best way to tackle it. ::)

Greetings!

How did America screw up? We follow along with the narrative put forth by the cock-sucking Marxist politicians that want more power, and one avenue to gaining more power is to encourage hysteria and promote a crisis that somehow requires America to shut down our economy and make everyone poor. And increase the numbers of people desperately dependent upon the Federal Government.

How did America screw up? By letting more Marxists and globalists and woke fucking morons gain power. In schools, business, entertainment, the media, and government. You can expect MORE corruption, and more clusterfucking from America, rather than less. The whole country is in a process of being run just like the states of New York, California, Oregon, and Washington. Everything is likely to get far more worse before anything ever gets better.

That's what happens when you let Marxists, cock-sucking Liberals, Globalists, and woke fucking morons get into controlling your government and culture.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 05, 2021, 03:14:51 PM
How many people died or are suffering from high-morbidity long term damage after COVID compared to how many people died or are suffering from high-morbidity long term damage from vaccines? It is that simple.
Quote
It varies. For the elderly, there's a compelling case for the vaccines. But for younger people, especially those who aren't obese, the trade off between the known risks of the vaccines and the possible chance of an infection is much murkier, and there doesn't seem to any good argument for jabbing children.

Brain. Even in young people, COVID-19 can cause strokes, seizures and Guillain-Barre syndrome — a condition that causes temporary paralysis. (from a post just above yours)
Quote
Also, notice how the "indistinct future" is the last ditch refuge of noVaxxers: "I don't know if the vaccines will have unforeseen consequences..." I'll think about that bridge when (and if) I get to it. Right now I have to think about a very scary and clear present.
While it's about economics not risk assessment, you reminded me of Bastiat's parable on the seen and unseen, because he highlights the importance of looking at all possible consequences of a situation...

...In the time we are given, I guess. And COVID took the World by storm. Do you want to wait more? Fine. Let's consider this solution. We know for certain that unchecked COVID causes variants. While most virii lose power with every generational cycle, this is not the case with this one. As we are seeing, it's already the variants the cause of the resurging scare.

We also know that "long term effects" of vaccines is something being studied since vaccines were created. Two and half billions people being vaccinated in a six months span is an unprecedented sample. For every informational article that patently describes why these COVID vaccines are safe you find one article that just screams danger - while sadly lacking counterfactual data.

And in this situation the best you can think of is "No! Wait!" Seriously? If a tiger is about to jump you, you don't react until you have evaluated the impact of killing her on a dwindling species? Or if getting tiger blood on your clothes can, one day, give you AIDS? Really?

And I'm still waiting for an answer to my basic question, a question I see being avoided everywhere I post it: 4% of World population, 25% of the dead by COVID. How could this happen?
Ask the Chinese. If you dare.

Are you telling me that, should the Chinese Army invade the US, the US will fold due to random squabbles about helmets and local governors declaring "There is no emergency, send the troops home, we can't have a deployed Army ruin Spring Break"?
Nope.

You're a bright boy, though. I'm sure you'll figure it out.

Are you sure you don't work for Evil Hat?  :D

Quote
If you need help: https://spectatorworld.com/topic/new-york-times-quashed-covid-origins-inquiry/

And?

Once the virus reached the US, no matter if from Dr. Evil's Fortress or from a Color Out of Space, how did the US screw up so spectacularly?

But, as I wrote, I never get a direct answer to this question - here being only an example. What I get instead are lectures from these people about the best way to tackle it. ::)

Greetings!

How did America screw up? We follow along with the narrative put forth by the cock-sucking Marxist politicians that want more power, and one avenue to gaining more power is to encourage hysteria and promote a crisis that somehow requires America to shut down our economy and make everyone poor. And increase the numbers of people desperately dependent upon the Federal Government.

How did America screw up? By letting more Marxists and globalists and woke fucking morons gain power. In schools, business, entertainment, the media, and government. You can expect MORE corruption, and more clusterfucking from America, rather than less. The whole country is in a process of being run just like the states of New York, California, Oregon, and Washington. Everything is likely to get far more worse before anything ever gets better.

That's what happens when you let Marxists, cock-sucking Liberals, Globalists, and woke fucking morons get into controlling your government and culture.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Trump held the reigns for the first year of Covid. What combination of "Marxists, cock-sucking Liberals, Globalist, and woke fucking morons" would you put him and his "best people" into?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ghostmaker on August 05, 2021, 03:29:38 PM
Meanwhile Jen 'Circle Back' Psaki straight up admits the Bidenharris misadministration is dumping COVID-positive illegals into Texas.

Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Eirikrautha on August 05, 2021, 03:33:37 PM
Trump held the reigns for the first year of Covid. What combination of "Marxists, cock-sucking Liberals, Globalist, and woke fucking morons" would you put him and his "best people" into?
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/
Of the top four of states with the highest deaths per 1M, 3 have democrat governors (with that noted Red state Massachusetts being the exception).  All locked down and the top 2 (NY & NJ) put Covid cases into old-folks homes, causing most of the deaths.  Florida is 26th.  Texas is 25th (both at 1/2 the rate of NY).  Looks like the northeastern states are the ones that screwed up the most, and Trump didn't win a single one of them...
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 05, 2021, 04:04:22 PM
Heart. Imaging tests taken months after recovery from COVID-19 have shown lasting damage to the heart muscle, even in people who experienced only mild COVID-19 symptoms. This may increase the risk of heart failure or other heart complications in the future.
https://www.statnews.com/2021/05/14/setting-the-record-straight-there-is-no-covid-heart/

The fact is there is no "consensus" as to the long term effects of either Covid or the vaccines.  Statements to the contrary are simply the "science as product" fallacy.  For people who have already had Covid or for whom the chance of complications are small (healthy and under 60), the risk of the disease is less than the risk of the vaccine. 

I know lots of people who had Covid.  I know no one who died or had serious long-term effects from it.  The same is true for everyone else I know.  All of the people who have died in my locality were in nursing homes or were already seriously ill.  I've been vaxxed, simply because I knew my industry was going to mandate it and I wanted it on my terms (single shot, non-mRNA).  Why are the 20-30 year-olds here in good health wrong for not getting vaccinated?
I've personally seen scores relatively healthy (damn near nobody is "perfectly healthy") individuals in their 30s and 40s with severe Covid-related symptoms in the last few months. I have directly witnessed a few of them die from it. The same is true for everyone else I work alongside.
"Policeman notes most people he meets while working are criminals!  News at 11!"
My point is that young and healthy people are at risk and are dying even if you are in denial. Florida, in particular, is getting hit hard right now. I hear Louisiana is bad too, but I don't have firsthand accounts on that.

firsthand accounts = Anecdotal "evidence"
It's an eyewitness statement that can be backed with hard data, but I am not at liberty to share that data and you are not cleared to receive it. So all you get is my statement...and that of many other healthcare workers that have seen similar events. But you just want to doubt them all. You have my pity too.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 05, 2021, 04:06:36 PM
Trump held the reigns for the first year of Covid. What combination of "Marxists, cock-sucking Liberals, Globalist, and woke fucking morons" would you put him and his "best people" into?
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/
Of the top four of states with the highest deaths per 1M, 3 have democrat governors (with that noted Red state Massachusetts being the exception).  All locked down and the top 2 (NY & NJ) put Covid cases into old-folks homes, causing most of the deaths.  Florida is 26th.  Texas is 25th (both at 1/2 the rate of NY).  Looks like the northeastern states are the ones that screwed up the most, and Trump didn't win a single one of them...
Win those states or not, the guy at the top takes ultimate blame, whether that's Trump or Biden (I'm not fond of either).
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: moonsweeper on August 05, 2021, 04:22:04 PM
Hey SHARK...Do you know this guy?   ;D

https://twitter.com/Saint_BTC/status/1420942302399262727
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Eirikrautha on August 05, 2021, 04:49:54 PM
Trump held the reigns for the first year of Covid. What combination of "Marxists, cock-sucking Liberals, Globalist, and woke fucking morons" would you put him and his "best people" into?
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/
Of the top four of states with the highest deaths per 1M, 3 have democrat governors (with that noted Red state Massachusetts being the exception).  All locked down and the top 2 (NY & NJ) put Covid cases into old-folks homes, causing most of the deaths.  Florida is 26th.  Texas is 25th (both at 1/2 the rate of NY).  Looks like the northeastern states are the ones that screwed up the most, and Trump didn't win a single one of them...
Win those states or not, the guy at the top takes ultimate blame, whether that's Trump or Biden (I'm not fond of either).
The "guy at the top" is the governor.  That's how our Republic works.  Of course, I recognize the totalitarian types here would much rather live under a dictatorship, but that's not how the U.S. works...
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: moonsweeper on August 05, 2021, 04:58:07 PM

It's an eyewitness statement that can be backed with hard data, but I am not at liberty to share that data and you are not cleared to receive it. So all you get is my statement...and that of many other healthcare workers that have seen similar events. But you just want to doubt them all. You have my pity too.

Oh please....spare us your fucking bullshit.

What about the healthcare workers who suggested the prophylactics a year and a half ago? 
It is truly amazing how all the 'medical experts who were dead set on denying anyone the 'right to try' are now pushing forced experimental treatments...

This was your moment in the sun. 
Was it not the world's worst healthcare situation of your professional life?
You could have stepped up and used your expertise to help stop intentional misinformation by medical bureaucrats who had significant financial conflicts of interest.
You are supposed to be an expert...isn't it part of your duty to fight back against that kind of garbage?

Instead, you kept pocketing your paycheck and repeated fucking talking points. 
Instead, You keep harassing us because we keep asking questions.
Instead, You let your TDS get in the way of whatever limited reasoning capability you have.

Then you attempt to wash your hands of it by taking the old 'Well, I never actually said anything one way or the other about...' route.


To paraphrase someone else on this board.  I don't need pity from someone that is only worthy of my contempt.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: SHARK on August 05, 2021, 05:29:13 PM
Hey SHARK...Do you know this guy?   ;D

https://twitter.com/Saint_BTC/status/1420942302399262727

Greetings!

FUCKING OOH RAH! Damn right I know him! ;D He seems like an outstanding Marine Veteran! Funny as hell, too! I just loved his straight expression at the end. That's right, brother! I'm not running any damn where, and no one is going to force me to do anything.

Loved that video, my friend!

I really wish our country would wake the hell up and stop being such weak fucking pussies, and so eager to get on their fucking knees, you know? This country used to pride itself on being rugged, masculine, and independent.

That's what happens when all these people swallow Marxism and Feminism. So fucking eager to stay on their knees and be obedient to the fucking women. Don't offend the precious women! Don't make the women feel uncomfortable or triggered! Everything must be safe! No one can ever feel excluded! Whaa! Whaa! Whaa! Don't dare offend anyone!

See, back in the day, when some moron threatened a man, or insulted him, the police weren't called. The man just drew on him and smoked the fucker. Or jackasses just got fucking beat down. BEAT! Conversely, in a general sense, people were accustomed to living in a harsh, brutal world where people said "offensive" things to others all the time. There is no Constitutional protection allowing you to never be offended. People can say whatever the fuck they want. It creates a truly free environment where people have to learn to be independent, and actually function like reasonable adults, instead of like sobbing, crying bitches and soy boys. *Sigh* This is what our society and culture have come to. Corrupt, and decadent, and absolutely feminized, sniveling, and weak.

It is inspiring to see a few of us still holding true to being free, strong, and independent, like the man in your video. Fucking outstanding! ;D

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Shasarak on August 05, 2021, 05:51:09 PM
I've personally seen scores relatively healthy (damn near nobody is "perfectly healthy") individuals in their 30s and 40s with severe Covid-related symptoms in the last few months. I have directly witnessed a few of them die from it. The same is true for everyone else I work alongside.

I see the current death rate for the Wuhan Covid for ages 30 to 39 range from 0.1% to 0.3%, so if we use an average of 0.2% times the population of Florida (2.6 million aged 30 to 39) equals 5 200 people.

So if you work in healthcare in Florida then yes I would expect you to see "a few" die from the Wuhan Covid.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: GeekyBugle on August 05, 2021, 05:52:11 PM
Heart. Imaging tests taken months after recovery from COVID-19 have shown lasting damage to the heart muscle, even in people who experienced only mild COVID-19 symptoms. This may increase the risk of heart failure or other heart complications in the future.
https://www.statnews.com/2021/05/14/setting-the-record-straight-there-is-no-covid-heart/

The fact is there is no "consensus" as to the long term effects of either Covid or the vaccines.  Statements to the contrary are simply the "science as product" fallacy.  For people who have already had Covid or for whom the chance of complications are small (healthy and under 60), the risk of the disease is less than the risk of the vaccine. 

I know lots of people who had Covid.  I know no one who died or had serious long-term effects from it.  The same is true for everyone else I know.  All of the people who have died in my locality were in nursing homes or were already seriously ill.  I've been vaxxed, simply because I knew my industry was going to mandate it and I wanted it on my terms (single shot, non-mRNA).  Why are the 20-30 year-olds here in good health wrong for not getting vaccinated?
I've personally seen scores relatively healthy (damn near nobody is "perfectly healthy") individuals in their 30s and 40s with severe Covid-related symptoms in the last few months. I have directly witnessed a few of them die from it. The same is true for everyone else I work alongside.
"Policeman notes most people he meets while working are criminals!  News at 11!"
My point is that young and healthy people are at risk and are dying even if you are in denial. Florida, in particular, is getting hit hard right now. I hear Louisiana is bad too, but I don't have firsthand accounts on that.

firsthand accounts = Anecdotal "evidence"
It's an eyewitness statement that can be backed with hard data, but I am not at liberty to share that data and you are not cleared to receive it. So all you get is my statement...and that of many other healthcare workers that have seen similar events. But you just want to doubt them all. You have my pity too.

Sources? Trust me bro!

Yeah, I'm an eskeptic, I do not trust people, I trust evidence, Anecdotical evidence isn't evidence. Plus appeals to authority? Seriously?

That's a fallacy, a no-no when dealing with people using logic.

Your argument is the same as : "It's true because the Bible says so"
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: GeekyBugle on August 05, 2021, 05:56:07 PM

It's an eyewitness statement that can be backed with hard data, but I am not at liberty to share that data and you are not cleared to receive it. So all you get is my statement...and that of many other healthcare workers that have seen similar events. But you just want to doubt them all. You have my pity too.

Oh please....spare us your fucking bullshit.

What about the healthcare workers who suggested the prophylactics a year and a half ago? 
It is truly amazing how all the 'medical experts who were dead set on denying anyone the 'right to try' are now pushing forced experimental treatments...

This was your moment in the sun. 
Was it not the world's worst healthcare situation of your professional life?
You could have stepped up and used your expertise to help stop intentional misinformation by medical bureaucrats who had significant financial conflicts of interest.
You are supposed to be an expert...isn't it part of your duty to fight back against that kind of garbage?

Instead, you kept pocketing your paycheck and repeated fucking talking points. 
Instead, You keep harassing us because we keep asking questions.
Instead, You let your TDS get in the way of whatever limited reasoning capability you have.

Then you attempt to wash your hands of it by taking the old 'Well, I never actually said anything one way or the other about...' route.


To paraphrase someone else on this board.  I don't need pity from someone that is only worthy of my contempt.

You have to remember those prophylactics are out of patent, ergo there's not a big ammount of money in using those.

Meanwhile with the vaccines the pharmaceuticals have made Billions!

I'm sure it's a "conspiracy theory" and a "Extreme right talking point"

Funny how many of those have been proven to be true in a short ammount of time no?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 05, 2021, 06:22:33 PM

It's an eyewitness statement that can be backed with hard data, but I am not at liberty to share that data and you are not cleared to receive it. So all you get is my statement...and that of many other healthcare workers that have seen similar events. But you just want to doubt them all. You have my pity too.

Oh please....spare us your fucking bullshit.

What about the healthcare workers who suggested the prophylactics a year and a half ago? 
It is truly amazing how all the 'medical experts who were dead set on denying anyone the 'right to try' are now pushing forced experimental treatments...

This was your moment in the sun. 
Was it not the world's worst healthcare situation of your professional life?
You could have stepped up and used your expertise to help stop intentional misinformation by medical bureaucrats who had significant financial conflicts of interest.
You are supposed to be an expert...isn't it part of your duty to fight back against that kind of garbage?

Instead, you kept pocketing your paycheck and repeated fucking talking points. 
Instead, You keep harassing us because we keep asking questions.
Instead, You let your TDS get in the way of whatever limited reasoning capability you have.

Then you attempt to wash your hands of it by taking the old 'Well, I never actually said anything one way or the other about...' route.


To paraphrase someone else on this board.  I don't need pity from someone that is only worthy of my contempt.
I pity you too. Try not to die from your own stupidity...or that of your herd.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 05, 2021, 06:25:42 PM

It's an eyewitness statement that can be backed with hard data, but I am not at liberty to share that data and you are not cleared to receive it. So all you get is my statement...and that of many other healthcare workers that have seen similar events. But you just want to doubt them all. You have my pity too.

Oh please....spare us your fucking bullshit.

What about the healthcare workers who suggested the prophylactics a year and a half ago? 
It is truly amazing how all the 'medical experts who were dead set on denying anyone the 'right to try' are now pushing forced experimental treatments...

This was your moment in the sun. 
Was it not the world's worst healthcare situation of your professional life?
You could have stepped up and used your expertise to help stop intentional misinformation by medical bureaucrats who had significant financial conflicts of interest.
You are supposed to be an expert...isn't it part of your duty to fight back against that kind of garbage?

Instead, you kept pocketing your paycheck and repeated fucking talking points. 
Instead, You keep harassing us because we keep asking questions.
Instead, You let your TDS get in the way of whatever limited reasoning capability you have.

Then you attempt to wash your hands of it by taking the old 'Well, I never actually said anything one way or the other about...' route.


To paraphrase someone else on this board.  I don't need pity from someone that is only worthy of my contempt.

You have to remember those prophylactics are out of patent, ergo there's not a big ammount of money in using those.

Meanwhile with the vaccines the pharmaceuticals have made Billions!

I'm sure it's a "conspiracy theory" and a "Extreme right talking point"

Funny how many of those have been proven to be true in a short ammount of time no?
You talk of evidence but then claim your idiotic points have been proven true. You are a fucking ignorant shit that needs to be flushed. But considering your sad situation, you too have my pity.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: GeekyBugle on August 05, 2021, 06:34:21 PM

It's an eyewitness statement that can be backed with hard data, but I am not at liberty to share that data and you are not cleared to receive it. So all you get is my statement...and that of many other healthcare workers that have seen similar events. But you just want to doubt them all. You have my pity too.

Oh please....spare us your fucking bullshit.

What about the healthcare workers who suggested the prophylactics a year and a half ago? 
It is truly amazing how all the 'medical experts who were dead set on denying anyone the 'right to try' are now pushing forced experimental treatments...

This was your moment in the sun. 
Was it not the world's worst healthcare situation of your professional life?
You could have stepped up and used your expertise to help stop intentional misinformation by medical bureaucrats who had significant financial conflicts of interest.
You are supposed to be an expert...isn't it part of your duty to fight back against that kind of garbage?

Instead, you kept pocketing your paycheck and repeated fucking talking points. 
Instead, You keep harassing us because we keep asking questions.
Instead, You let your TDS get in the way of whatever limited reasoning capability you have.

Then you attempt to wash your hands of it by taking the old 'Well, I never actually said anything one way or the other about...' route.


To paraphrase someone else on this board.  I don't need pity from someone that is only worthy of my contempt.

You have to remember those prophylactics are out of patent, ergo there's not a big ammount of money in using those.

Meanwhile with the vaccines the pharmaceuticals have made Billions!

I'm sure it's a "conspiracy theory" and a "Extreme right talking point"

Funny how many of those have been proven to be true in a short ammount of time no?
You talk of evidence but then claim your idiotic points have been proven true. You are a fucking ignorant shit that needs to be flushed. But considering your sad situation, you too have my pity.

Lets see my dear smoothbrain:

At least one of those demonized prophylactic treatments is now recognized it does help prevent hospitalization/death.

The Lab Leak theory?

And yes, those prophylactics are out of patent, and yes the pharmaceuticals have meda billions from their vaccines and will do yet more billions since you are supossed to have it every year.

Is there a link? Maybe, but you'll claim there isn't and then pretend you didn't IF it ever is proven there's one.

As for your insults...

For you to be able to offend me I would need to care about your opinion, I don't, you're just another NPC.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 05, 2021, 06:48:52 PM

It's an eyewitness statement that can be backed with hard data, but I am not at liberty to share that data and you are not cleared to receive it. So all you get is my statement...and that of many other healthcare workers that have seen similar events. But you just want to doubt them all. You have my pity too.

Oh please....spare us your fucking bullshit.

What about the healthcare workers who suggested the prophylactics a year and a half ago? 
It is truly amazing how all the 'medical experts who were dead set on denying anyone the 'right to try' are now pushing forced experimental treatments...

This was your moment in the sun. 
Was it not the world's worst healthcare situation of your professional life?
You could have stepped up and used your expertise to help stop intentional misinformation by medical bureaucrats who had significant financial conflicts of interest.
You are supposed to be an expert...isn't it part of your duty to fight back against that kind of garbage?

Instead, you kept pocketing your paycheck and repeated fucking talking points. 
Instead, You keep harassing us because we keep asking questions.
Instead, You let your TDS get in the way of whatever limited reasoning capability you have.

Then you attempt to wash your hands of it by taking the old 'Well, I never actually said anything one way or the other about...' route.


To paraphrase someone else on this board.  I don't need pity from someone that is only worthy of my contempt.

You have to remember those prophylactics are out of patent, ergo there's not a big ammount of money in using those.

Meanwhile with the vaccines the pharmaceuticals have made Billions!

I'm sure it's a "conspiracy theory" and a "Extreme right talking point"

Funny how many of those have been proven to be true in a short ammount of time no?
You talk of evidence but then claim your idiotic points have been proven true. You are a fucking ignorant shit that needs to be flushed. But considering your sad situation, you too have my pity.

Lets see my dear smoothbrain:

At least one of those demonized prophylactic treatments is now recognized it does help prevent hospitalization/death.

The Lab Leak theory?

And yes, those prophylactics are out of patent, and yes the pharmaceuticals have meda billions from their vaccines and will do yet more billions since you are supossed to have it every year.

Is there a link? Maybe, but you'll claim there isn't and then pretend you didn't IF it ever is proven there's one.

As for your insults...

For you to be able to offend me I would need to care about your opinion, I don't, you're just another NPC.
It's great that we agree that neithet of us give a shit about what the other thinks. Well now, that's one thing we got.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: moonsweeper on August 05, 2021, 07:47:57 PM
And yes, those prophylactics are out of patent, and yes the pharmaceuticals have meda billions from their vaccines and will do yet more billions since you are supossed to have it every year.

It gets even better when you realize that, in the US, the FDA is not allowed to issue an Emergency Use Authorization if there is an approved therapeutic available...

It would have been awful if the FDA would have approved any of those prophylactics for use...I mean that means we would have to wait for full approval before using the shots.  Imagine how sad all the pharmaceutical companies would have been if they had to wait to help everyone out...  :'(

Now maybe I am misunderstanding something since I am not a health care professional...but if I am wrong, I am sure someone with expertise will step forward and tell us.

...because I wouldn't want to spread misinformation.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: GeekyBugle on August 05, 2021, 08:27:35 PM
And yes, those prophylactics are out of patent, and yes the pharmaceuticals have meda billions from their vaccines and will do yet more billions since you are supossed to have it every year.

It gets even better when you realize that, in the US, the FDA is not allowed to issue an Emergency Use Authorization if there is an approved therapeutic available...

It would have been awful if the FDA would have approved any of those prophylactics for use...I mean that means we would have to wait for full approval before using the shots.  Imagine how sad all the pharmaceutical companies would have been if they had to wait to help everyone out...  :'(

Now maybe I am misunderstanding something since I am not a health care professional...but if I am wrong, I am sure someone with expertise will step forward and tell us.

...because I wouldn't want to spread misinformation.

The plot thickens.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Zelen on August 05, 2021, 08:39:30 PM
Once the virus reached the US, no matter if from Dr. Evil's Fortress or from a Color Out of Space, how did the US screw up so spectacularly?

But, as I wrote, I never get a direct answer to this question - here being only an example. What I get instead are lectures from these people about the best way to tackle it. ::)


Seriously, what do you think that the US did wrong? Because in the US we had lockdowns for months, we had universal masking mandates for months.

You seem to be angry about your father dying. That's understandable and a legitimate tragedy.

I'll speak to my own experience here. (Note: Minor details changed for privacy). During the lockdowns my mother died. She has had ongoing health issues for many years but was mobile, active, and mentally sharp. Last year she suffered a fall and my family put her in a care home. At the time her prognosis was good, and she was on the road to recovery. However, Covid lockdowns came into effect and she was completely isolated in a single room and not permitted to see any other residents or visitors.

During the lockdown you could tell the extended isolation was taking a toll on her. We would talk regularly but it was apparent that her mental well being was declining without the ability to go outside, talk, or see another person face to face. When we talked she told me she kept looking forward to a certain date when she'd be allowed to see people and move around freely again.

Eventually after weeks of isolation she suffered some kind of cardiac issue that led to her being taken to the hospital. However, after a brief diagnosis she was denied ongoing hospital care due to reserving space for Covid patients. She was returned to the care home and again put into a quarantine during which no visitors or family were permitted. She died after a month of being imprisoned in a room and not being permitted to see any of her loved ones. I have no doubt that if she were actually among people who cared for her, she would be alive today.

The fact of the matter is everyone dies. We must always make choices about how we live, because we don't have a choice about dying. I am absolutely certain my mother would not have chosen to die having been isolated into a sterile room, never being allowed to talk face to face with loved ones, hold their hands, hug them, or kiss them. This type of policy is cruel and violates human dignity and respect for the individual.

While I understand the desire to protect people, I find it alarming and reckless when we take dramatic actions that are not supported with available evidence, violate decades of established medical practice, and threaten to eliminate all freedom in society.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on August 05, 2021, 09:31:26 PM
And yes, those prophylactics are out of patent, and yes the pharmaceuticals have meda billions from their vaccines and will do yet more billions since you are supossed to have it every year.

It gets even better when you realize that, in the US, the FDA is not allowed to issue an Emergency Use Authorization if there is an approved therapeutic available...

It would have been awful if the FDA would have approved any of those prophylactics for use...I mean that means we would have to wait for full approval before using the shots.  Imagine how sad all the pharmaceutical companies would have been if they had to wait to help everyone out...  :'(

Now maybe I am misunderstanding something since I am not a health care professional...but if I am wrong, I am sure someone with expertise will step forward and tell us.

...because I wouldn't want to spread misinformation.
I'm not fluent enough in FDA bureaucratese to know one way or the other, but that sounds both plausible... and dubious. Do you or anyone else have a solid source for that?

Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on August 05, 2021, 09:34:00 PM
H. Scott Apley, who according to the Galveston News was a member of the Galveston County Republican Party and Dickinson City council, was 45 years old. No listed pre-existing conditions.

On Facebook last week he posted:

“In 6 months, we’ve gone from the vax ending the pandemic, to you can still get Covid even if vaxxed, to you can pass Covid onto others even if vaxxed, to you can still die of Covid even if vaxxed, to the unvaxxed are killing the vaxxed,” the post read. Below it was "Bah ha ah ah yup."

Apley was admitted to a Galveston hospital two days after that post, on Sunday Aug 1, with pneumonia-like symptoms, according to a GoFundMe page. He tested positive for COVID-19 and was placed on a ventilator.

He died around 3 a.m. Wednesday, according to the GoFundMe.

His wife and 5-month-old son also tested positive for the virus, KTRK reported.

This could be any of you guys here saying exactly the same kind of stuff this guy posted last week. And now he's dead.

Please, get your vaccines guys. Even if it's just the J&J Vaccine which uses more "normal" tech behind it, just get it.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Eirikrautha on August 05, 2021, 09:40:56 PM
H. Scott Apley, who according to the Galveston News was a member of the Galveston County Republican Party and Dickinson City council, was 45 years old. No listed pre-existing conditions.

On Facebook last week he posted:

“In 6 months, we’ve gone from the vax ending the pandemic, to you can still get Covid even if vaxxed, to you can pass Covid onto others even if vaxxed, to you can still die of Covid even if vaxxed, to the unvaxxed are killing the vaxxed,” the post read.

Apley was admitted to a Galveston hospital two days after that post with pneumonia-like symptoms, according to a GoFundMe page. He tested positive for COVID-19 and was placed on a ventilator.

He died around 3 a.m. Wednesday, according to the GoFundMe.

His wife and 5-month-old son also tested positive for the virus, KTRK reported.

This could be any of you guys here saying exactly the same kind of stuff this guy posted last week. And now he's dead.

Please, get your vaccines guys. Even if it's just the J&J Vaccine which uses more "normal" tech behind it, just get it.
He was morbidly obese.  He may have died from Covid, or he may have died with Covid.  That has yet to be determined.  But don't let me slow down your grave-dancing.

BTW, would you like me to post a couple of dozen stories of people who have died of Covid after taking the vaccine?  They are out there.  But single stories aren't evidence of anything, other than lightning can strike sometimes...
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ratman_tf on August 05, 2021, 09:41:08 PM
H. Scott Apley, who according to the Galveston News was a member of the Galveston County Republican Party and Dickinson City council, was 45 years old. No listed pre-existing conditions.

On Facebook last week he posted:

“In 6 months, we’ve gone from the vax ending the pandemic, to you can still get Covid even if vaxxed, to you can pass Covid onto others even if vaxxed, to you can still die of Covid even if vaxxed, to the unvaxxed are killing the vaxxed,” the post read. Below it was "Bah ha ah ah yup."

Apley was admitted to a Galveston hospital two days after that post with pneumonia-like symptoms, according to a GoFundMe page. He tested positive for COVID-19 and was placed on a ventilator.

He died around 3 a.m. Wednesday, according to the GoFundMe.

His wife and 5-month-old son also tested positive for the virus, KTRK reported.

This could be any of you guys here saying exactly the same kind of stuff this guy posted last week. And now he's dead.

Please, get your vaccines guys. Even if it's just the J&J Vaccine which uses more "normal" tech behind it, just get it.

You think we're not aware that people have died with Covid? This does not change my risk assesment.

Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on August 05, 2021, 09:43:28 PM
H. Scott Apley, who according to the Galveston News was a member of the Galveston County Republican Party and Dickinson City council, was 45 years old. No listed pre-existing conditions.

On Facebook last week he posted:

“In 6 months, we’ve gone from the vax ending the pandemic, to you can still get Covid even if vaxxed, to you can pass Covid onto others even if vaxxed, to you can still die of Covid even if vaxxed, to the unvaxxed are killing the vaxxed,” the post read.

Apley was admitted to a Galveston hospital two days after that post with pneumonia-like symptoms, according to a GoFundMe page. He tested positive for COVID-19 and was placed on a ventilator.

He died around 3 a.m. Wednesday, according to the GoFundMe.

His wife and 5-month-old son also tested positive for the virus, KTRK reported.

This could be any of you guys here saying exactly the same kind of stuff this guy posted last week. And now he's dead.

Please, get your vaccines guys. Even if it's just the J&J Vaccine which uses more "normal" tech behind it, just get it.
He was morbidly obese.  He may have died from Covid, or he may have died with Covid.  That has yet to be determined.  But don't let me slow down your grave-dancing.

BTW, would you like me to post a couple of dozen stories of people who have died of Covid after taking the vaccine?  They are out there.  But single stories aren't evidence of anything, other than lightning can strike sometimes...

Where are you getting he was morbidly obese? I've seen nothing verifying that anywhere.

I am not grave dancing. He has a little baby. This is horrible and nothing to be happy about. WTF is wrong with you?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on August 05, 2021, 09:44:46 PM
H. Scott Apley, who according to the Galveston News was a member of the Galveston County Republican Party and Dickinson City council, was 45 years old. No listed pre-existing conditions.

On Facebook last week he posted:

“In 6 months, we’ve gone from the vax ending the pandemic, to you can still get Covid even if vaxxed, to you can pass Covid onto others even if vaxxed, to you can still die of Covid even if vaxxed, to the unvaxxed are killing the vaxxed,” the post read. Below it was "Bah ha ah ah yup."

Apley was admitted to a Galveston hospital two days after that post with pneumonia-like symptoms, according to a GoFundMe page. He tested positive for COVID-19 and was placed on a ventilator.

He died around 3 a.m. Wednesday, according to the GoFundMe.

His wife and 5-month-old son also tested positive for the virus, KTRK reported.

This could be any of you guys here saying exactly the same kind of stuff this guy posted last week. And now he's dead.

Please, get your vaccines guys. Even if it's just the J&J Vaccine which uses more "normal" tech behind it, just get it.

You think we're not aware that people have died with Covid? This does not change my risk assesment.

I figured hearing a guy who thinks like you about this topic just died of it while thinking it was all bullshit like you do. I figured empathy might kick in a little? Some questioning if maybe the J&J is not that scary?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on August 05, 2021, 09:45:46 PM
I'll speak to my own experience here. (Note: Minor details changed for privacy). During the lockdowns my mother died. She has had ongoing health issues for many years but was mobile, active, and mentally sharp. Last year she suffered a fall and my family put her in a care home. At the time her prognosis was good, and she was on the road to recovery. However, Covid lockdowns came into effect and she was completely isolated in a single room and not permitted to see any other residents or visitors.

During the lockdown you could tell the extended isolation was taking a toll on her. We would talk regularly but it was apparent that her mental well being was declining without the ability to go outside, talk, or see another person face to face. When we talked she told me she kept looking forward to a certain date when she'd be allowed to see people and move around freely again.

Eventually after weeks of isolation she suffered some kind of cardiac issue that led to her being taken to the hospital. However, after a brief diagnosis she was denied ongoing hospital care due to reserving space for Covid patients. She was returned to the care home and again put into a quarantine during which no visitors or family were permitted. She died after a month of being imprisoned in a room and not being permitted to see any of her loved ones. I have no doubt that if she were actually among people who cared for her, she would be alive today.

The fact of the matter is everyone dies. We must always make choices about how we live, because we don't have a choice about dying. I am absolutely certain my mother would not have chosen to die having been isolated into a sterile room, never being allowed to talk face to face with loved ones, hold their hands, hug them, or kiss them. This type of policy is cruel and violates human dignity and respect for the individual.

While I understand the desire to protect people, I find it alarming and reckless when we take dramatic actions that are not supported with available evidence, violate decades of established medical practice, and threaten to eliminate all freedom in society.
I have an experience that's similar in kind, though not in degree.

And I think it's a very important point, in general, beyond the specifics of any particular case. Survival and well-being among the elderly seems to be strongly tied to engagement. I know an elderly man who fought off a mugger -- I'm talking about a man in his late 70s rolling around on the ground with a man in his 20s, because he refused to give up his wallet -- and barring a few scratches and bruises, he was fine afterwards. But just 2 years later, his wife passed away, and despite being just as physically capable as he was when he fought off the mugger, he died within 3 months. His death was of natural causes, but the real reason was he gave up.

Covid-19 is removing those personal connections. Elderly people living in congregate care homes have been stuck in their rooms, and denied the socialization that keeps them engaged and alive. Elderly people living alone were in a much better position to avoid catching covid-19 -- but were in even worse shape, when it comes to socialization. I know a number who have markedly declined during this period, because there was nothing keeping them active and engaged; a Zoom or Duo meeting once or twice a week with their grandchildren isn't enough. One who recently moved halfway across the country to live with her son's family has improved in a lot of ways and her decline was arrested (remarkably, all her blood work miraculously improved), but it hasn't reversed the decline in mobility and self-sufficiency that occurred during the year of covid.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: GeekyBugle on August 05, 2021, 09:58:47 PM
H. Scott Apley, who according to the Galveston News was a member of the Galveston County Republican Party and Dickinson City council, was 45 years old. No listed pre-existing conditions.

On Facebook last week he posted:

“In 6 months, we’ve gone from the vax ending the pandemic, to you can still get Covid even if vaxxed, to you can pass Covid onto others even if vaxxed, to you can still die of Covid even if vaxxed, to the unvaxxed are killing the vaxxed,” the post read.

Apley was admitted to a Galveston hospital two days after that post with pneumonia-like symptoms, according to a GoFundMe page. He tested positive for COVID-19 and was placed on a ventilator.

He died around 3 a.m. Wednesday, according to the GoFundMe.

His wife and 5-month-old son also tested positive for the virus, KTRK reported.

This could be any of you guys here saying exactly the same kind of stuff this guy posted last week. And now he's dead.

Please, get your vaccines guys. Even if it's just the J&J Vaccine which uses more "normal" tech behind it, just get it.
He was morbidly obese.  He may have died from Covid, or he may have died with Covid.  That has yet to be determined.  But don't let me slow down your grave-dancing.

BTW, would you like me to post a couple of dozen stories of people who have died of Covid after taking the vaccine?  They are out there.  But single stories aren't evidence of anything, other than lightning can strike sometimes...

Where are you getting he was morbidly obese? I've seen nothing verifying that anywhere.

I am not grave dancing. He has a little baby. This is horrible and nothing to be happy about. WTF is wrong with you?

Google is your friend

https://www.google.com.mx/search?q=h+scott+apley+dickinson+tx&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiGvf7ZpZvyAhVFX60KHan8CSEQ_AUoAnoECAEQBA&biw=1280&bih=873#imgrc=MMBsXQ0wyx6bsM (https://www.google.com.mx/search?q=h+scott+apley+dickinson+tx&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiGvf7ZpZvyAhVFX60KHan8CSEQ_AUoAnoECAEQBA&biw=1280&bih=873#imgrc=MMBsXQ0wyx6bsM)
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ratman_tf on August 05, 2021, 10:02:53 PM
Where are you getting he was morbidly obese? I've seen nothing verifying that anywhere.

10 seconds on google.

https://www.rawstory.com/media-library/eyJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiIsInR5cCI6IkpXVCJ9.eyJpbWFnZSI6Imh0dHBzOi8vYXNzZXRzLnJibC5tcy8yNzEzODcwNi9vcmlnaW4ucG5nIiwiZXhwaXJlc19hdCI6MTY0MDI2ODIwNH0.Ctrjewp9HcR-HpyXWYcupPDX9qNyiaj3XVfXanPhd_Y/image.png?width=1200&coordinates=0%2C0%2C0%2C50&height=600

You think we're not aware that people have died with Covid? This does not change my risk assesment.

I figured hearing a guy who thinks like you about this topic just died of it while thinking it was all bullshit like you do. I figured empathy might kick in a little? Some questioning if maybe the J&J is not that scary?

It doesn't sound like I agree with anything he said. You may be lumping all the posters here into one strawman.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: moonsweeper on August 05, 2021, 10:13:19 PM
And yes, those prophylactics are out of patent, and yes the pharmaceuticals have meda billions from their vaccines and will do yet more billions since you are supossed to have it every year.

It gets even better when you realize that, in the US, the FDA is not allowed to issue an Emergency Use Authorization if there is an approved therapeutic available...

It would have been awful if the FDA would have approved any of those prophylactics for use...I mean that means we would have to wait for full approval before using the shots.  Imagine how sad all the pharmaceutical companies would have been if they had to wait to help everyone out...  :'(

Now maybe I am misunderstanding something since I am not a health care professional...but if I am wrong, I am sure someone with expertise will step forward and tell us.

...because I wouldn't want to spread misinformation.
I'm not fluent enough in FDA bureaucratese to know one way or the other, but that sounds both plausible... and dubious. Do you or anyone else have a solid source for that?

Emergency Use Authorization for Vaccines to Prevent COVID-19
Guidance for Industry

https://www.fda.gov/media/142749/download

Page 3, bullet point 4
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Eirikrautha on August 05, 2021, 10:14:10 PM
I figured hearing a guy who thinks like you about this topic just died of it while thinking it was all bullshit like you do. I figured empathy might kick in a little? Some questioning if maybe the J&J is not that scary?
Bullshit.  You couldn't care less about this guy.  The only reason you even know about him is that you think he proves some political point.  You have no idea how either Apley or Ratman "think" about this issue (especially since you are relying on news reports and social media for Apley's opinions).  The fact that you think this has anything to do with peoples' vaccine hesitancy shows you are clueless about how they think.  Honestly, this kind of post just proves you are moral navel-lint...
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on August 05, 2021, 10:37:06 PM
And yes, those prophylactics are out of patent, and yes the pharmaceuticals have meda billions from their vaccines and will do yet more billions since you are supossed to have it every year.

It gets even better when you realize that, in the US, the FDA is not allowed to issue an Emergency Use Authorization if there is an approved therapeutic available...

It would have been awful if the FDA would have approved any of those prophylactics for use...I mean that means we would have to wait for full approval before using the shots.  Imagine how sad all the pharmaceutical companies would have been if they had to wait to help everyone out...  :'(

Now maybe I am misunderstanding something since I am not a health care professional...but if I am wrong, I am sure someone with expertise will step forward and tell us.

...because I wouldn't want to spread misinformation.
I'm not fluent enough in FDA bureaucratese to know one way or the other, but that sounds both plausible... and dubious. Do you or anyone else have a solid source for that?

Emergency Use Authorization for Vaccines to Prevent COVID-19
Guidance for Industry

https://www.fda.gov/media/142749/download

Page 3, bullet point 4
Good link, but not what I was referring to. That just says no alternative. This isn't a situation where the plain wording is relevant, it's about how it's interpreted. Is a vax the same as a prophylactic? That requires some legal/regulatory/medical assessment. I'd like to hear someone familiar with similar cases in the pharma industry talk about how it applies to the covid-19 vaxxes.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on August 05, 2021, 10:41:59 PM
Please, get your vaccines guys.

My dad was vaccinated, still got sick. Don't know if it helped or not.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: moonsweeper on August 05, 2021, 11:10:20 PM
And yes, those prophylactics are out of patent, and yes the pharmaceuticals have meda billions from their vaccines and will do yet more billions since you are supossed to have it every year.

It gets even better when you realize that, in the US, the FDA is not allowed to issue an Emergency Use Authorization if there is an approved therapeutic available...

It would have been awful if the FDA would have approved any of those prophylactics for use...I mean that means we would have to wait for full approval before using the shots.  Imagine how sad all the pharmaceutical companies would have been if they had to wait to help everyone out...  :'(

Now maybe I am misunderstanding something since I am not a health care professional...but if I am wrong, I am sure someone with expertise will step forward and tell us.

...because I wouldn't want to spread misinformation.
I'm not fluent enough in FDA bureaucratese to know one way or the other, but that sounds both plausible... and dubious. Do you or anyone else have a solid source for that?

Emergency Use Authorization for Vaccines to Prevent COVID-19
Guidance for Industry

https://www.fda.gov/media/142749/download

Page 3, bullet point 4
Good link, but not what I was referring to. That just says no alternative. This isn't a situation where the plain wording is relevant, it's about how it's interpreted. Is a vax the same as a prophylactic? That requires some legal/regulatory/medical assessment. I'd like to hear someone familiar with similar cases in the pharma industry talk about how it applies to the covid-19 vaxxes.

The heading for that section...emphasis mine

Quote
On the basis of such determination,
on March 27, 2020, the Secretary then declared that circumstances exist justifying the authorization
of emergency use of drugs and biological products during the COVID-19 pandemic, pursuant to
section 564(b)(1) of the FD&C Act (21 U.S.C. 360bbb-3(b)(1)).

Looks to me like they are not differentiating between the two...

And considering how much money, power, and control is on the table...no way do I trust anything other than a straight interpretation.

Remember the study that came out back in January saying the HCQ cocktail seems to work, yet still no authorization...Its been around for 70 years or so.  In most places outside the US it was an OTC med, but here Drs still have to prescribe it 'Off Label' for Covid...I'm gonna go with plain reading and it being a CYA for the pharma companies/government.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on August 05, 2021, 11:16:22 PM
And considering how much money, power, and control is on the table...no way do I trust anything other than a straight interpretation.
I think precedent is more important. Is this how it's normally interpreted, or is this exceptional?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: moonsweeper on August 05, 2021, 11:29:36 PM
And considering how much money, power, and control is on the table...no way do I trust anything other than a straight interpretation.
I think precedent is more important. Is this how it's normally interpreted, or is this exceptional?

There might be something from the 2009 swine flu stuff.  That is the only time I know for sure that EUA was used during a prior pandemic.

side note:   a friend just reminded me that HCQ had an EUA at one point but it was then revoked...

Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ratman_tf on August 05, 2021, 11:50:35 PM
Fire anyone who refuses the vax!

https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2021/08/05/1025319741/cnn-fires-three-employees-work-unvaccinated?utm_campaign=npr&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_term=nprnews&utm_medium=social&fbclid=IwAR3rKyetIY2DK1bN4ofH7U9s70FgaGLMu-H9uQmFOBHILFQIEhtxqDXg5Tg

Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on August 06, 2021, 12:12:20 AM
I figured hearing a guy who thinks like you about this topic just died of it while thinking it was all bullshit like you do. I figured empathy might kick in a little? Some questioning if maybe the J&J is not that scary?
Bullshit.  You couldn't care less about this guy.  The only reason you even know about him is that you think he proves some political point.  You have no idea how either Apley or Ratman "think" about this issue (especially since you are relying on news reports and social media for Apley's opinions).  The fact that you think this has anything to do with peoples' vaccine hesitancy shows you are clueless about how they think.  Honestly, this kind of post just proves you are moral navel-lint...

Dude, what possible political point would it prove? I have a kid. Of course I care about a dad who just died leaving behind a tiny baby. I want you guys to get vaccinate. I don't want to see this happen to you like it happened to this guy. And I LOOKED AT HIS POST to rely on what he said. I saw the post he made, directly. You can too. Go look.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on August 06, 2021, 12:14:12 AM
I love how you guys are diagnosing someone as "morbidly obese" from pictures from the chest up which just shows a bigger guy (who is tall as well). OK, I guess we have doctors posting on therpgsite now too. Jesus fuck, you guys are something sometimes. Anything to protect your world view. Can't be you're in danger - must find some excuse for why it could never be you.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on August 06, 2021, 12:19:38 AM
And considering how much money, power, and control is on the table...no way do I trust anything other than a straight interpretation.
I think precedent is more important. Is this how it's normally interpreted, or is this exceptional?

There might be something from the 2009 swine flu stuff.  That is the only time I know for sure that EUA was used during a prior pandemic.

side note:   a friend just reminded me that HCQ had an EUA at one point but it was then revoked...
There are probably legal interpretations in the planning material, as well.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Eirikrautha on August 06, 2021, 12:20:30 AM
I figured hearing a guy who thinks like you about this topic just died of it while thinking it was all bullshit like you do. I figured empathy might kick in a little? Some questioning if maybe the J&J is not that scary?
Bullshit.  You couldn't care less about this guy.  The only reason you even know about him is that you think he proves some political point.  You have no idea how either Apley or Ratman "think" about this issue (especially since you are relying on news reports and social media for Apley's opinions).  The fact that you think this has anything to do with peoples' vaccine hesitancy shows you are clueless about how they think.  Honestly, this kind of post just proves you are moral navel-lint...

Dude, what possible political point would it prove? I have a kid. Of course I care about a dad who just died leaving behind a tiny baby. I want you guys to get vaccinate. I don't want to see this happen to you like it happened to this guy. And I LOOKED AT HIS POST to rely on what he said. I saw the post he made, directly. You can too. Go look.
You dolt, I've been vaccinated.  That doesn't mean I have any illusions as to the exaggerated effectiveness or the utility for healthy people.  If you believe that you can compare what I think to what Ratman thinks to what a person you've never even talked to based on a handful of social media posts, you are dumber than I thought.  As for your motives, we all know the truth.  How many stories have you posted about the literally millions of people who've gotten Covid but recovered?  Just the one about the "vax-denier" who died.  You are despicable.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ratman_tf on August 06, 2021, 12:31:55 AM
I love how you guys are diagnosing someone as "morbidly obese" from pictures from the chest up which just shows a bigger guy (who is tall as well). OK, I guess we have doctors posting on therpgsite now too. Jesus fuck, you guys are something sometimes. Anything to protect your world view. Can't be you're in danger - must find some excuse for why it could never be you.

Dude. He's fat.

(https://bloximages.newyork1.vip.townnews.com/galvnews.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/7/d7/7d7a75f4-2d99-5321-ad8a-a1c870f57b0f/610b0f0f33bbd.image.jpg?resize=400%2C402)

It's this kind of screeching that causes me to question your motivations for posting the article.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: GeekyBugle on August 06, 2021, 12:56:22 AM
I love how you guys are diagnosing someone as "morbidly obese" from pictures from the chest up which just shows a bigger guy (who is tall as well). OK, I guess we have doctors posting on therpgsite now too. Jesus fuck, you guys are something sometimes. Anything to protect your world view. Can't be you're in danger - must find some excuse for why it could never be you.

Dude. He's fat.

(https://bloximages.newyork1.vip.townnews.com/galvnews.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/7/d7/7d7a75f4-2d99-5321-ad8a-a1c870f57b0f/610b0f0f33bbd.image.jpg?resize=400%2C402)

It's this kind of screeching that causes me to question your motivations for posting the article.

As an Ex-Fat Fuck that's really tall and used to look like the man in the photo (R.I.P.) I can confirm that's not a "Big Guy", that's a fat fuck, very likely morbidly obese, and probably with some other health condition due to being a fat fuck, which is why I choose to get thinner a long while back.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on August 06, 2021, 05:45:52 AM
It was never sold as a 100% cure. They accurately reported the percentage effectiveness against each strain as it arose and none of those were 100%.

Not even 1% efficacy. Utterly pointless and probably making infections worse if Israel's latest data is anything to go by. What a strange coincidence that all the places with the highest level of vaccination also have the highest levels of infection.

Please, get your vaccines guys. Even if it's just the J&J Vaccine which uses more "normal" tech behind it, just get it.

Fuck off, not a chance.

Somehow this "deadly" virus has failed to kill me, or leave any lasting impacts, twice. Might I not even notice it the next time?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Reckall on August 06, 2021, 06:09:08 AM
...In the time we are given, I guess. And COVID took the World by storm. Do you want to wait more? Fine. Let's consider this solution. We know for certain that unchecked COVID causes variants. While most virii lose power with every generational cycle, this is not the case with this one. As we are seeing, it's already the variants the cause of the resurging scare.
"Lose power"? These are viruses, not batteries. They don't work like that.

Then let's use $10 words: "As they go through generational cycles, most virii become less virulent, progressively mutating themselves into a less dangerous form."

Happier?

Quote
We also know that "long term effects" of vaccines is something being studied since vaccines were created. Two and half billions people being vaccinated in a six months span is an unprecedented sample. For every informational article that patently describes why these COVID vaccines are safe you find one article that just screams danger - while sadly lacking counterfactual data.
No, that just you in your bubble. There are real and severe side effects to the vaccines, and they're widely reported and documented on all credible medical websites. And running human experiments on 2.5 billion people doesn't miraculously cause time dilation. We don't know the long term side effects because it hasn't been long enough.

Why is this such a difficult concept to grasp?

You talk about "credible medical sites" without naming one or giving factual examples. I happened to get my info from them. Hold my hand and we will go through this together.

https://www.muhealth.org/our-stories/how-do-we-know-covid-19-vaccine-wont-have-long-term-side-effects

History tells us that severe side effects are extremely rare, and if they do occur, they usually happen within the first two months.

COVID-19 vaccine technologies have been studied for years and used in other treatments without issue.

https://www.uab.edu/reporter/resources/be-healthy/item/9544-what-are-the-long-term-side-effects-of-covid-vaccines-3-things-to-know

In his nearly 30 years studying vaccines, UAB’s Paul Goepfert, M.D., director of the Alabama Vaccine Research Clinic, has never seen anything as effective as the three COVID-19 vaccines — from Pfizer, Moderna and Johnson & Johnson — available in the United States. “A 90% decrease in risk of infections and 94% effectiveness against hospitalization for the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines is fantastic,” he said.

But what makes vaccine experts such as Goepfert confident that COVID vaccines are safe in the long-term? We all have seen billboards and TV infomercials from law firms seeking people harmed by diet drugs or acid-reflux medicines for class-action lawsuits. What makes Goepfert think that scientists won’t discover previously unsuspected problems caused by COVID vaccines in the years ahead?

There are several reasons.

Vaccines are eliminated quickly

Vaccine side effects show up within weeks if at all

Our COVID vaccine experience during the past six months

Vaccines, given in one- or two-shot doses, are very different from medicines that people take every day, potentially for years, Goepfert says. And decades of vaccine history — plus data from more than a billion people who have received COVID vaccines since December 2020 — both provide powerful proof that there is little chance that any new dangers will emerge from COVID vaccines.


Are there potential side effects to vaccines? Of course there are. COVID happens to have some side effects too. Let's see a comparison:

https://www.healthline.com/health-news/vaccine-side-effects-vs-covid-19-damage-theres-no-comparison

Experts say that the mild and rare side effects from COVID-19 vaccines are nowhere near as serious as the potential damage the disease itself can cause.

They say that the long-term consequences of COVID-19 can include increased risk of stroke, lung damage, Alzheimer’s disease, and Parkinson’s disease.

They add that there have been reports of rare cases of Bell’s palsy developing from COVID-19 vaccines but that the rate appears to be lower than that of the general population.

Which would you rather have: muscle fatigue or permanent lung damage?

Would you prefer mild, short-term inflammation around the heart or severe damage to that organ that could lead to heart failure?

Would you rather have moderate pain in your upper arm for a few days or increase the possibility of developing Parkinson’s disease or Alzheimer’s disease?

These are just a few examples of the stark contrast between the side effects of COVID-19 vaccines and developing the disease itself.

While the vaccines’ side effects are mild and short, the damage caused by COVID-19 can be long lasting and even fatal.

You disagree with these abstracts? Give me alternatives. Don't babble about "serious medical sites", give me the links. Only a request: please, avoid Breitbart news.
Quote
And in this situation the best you can think of is "No! Wait!" Seriously? If a tiger is about to jump you, you don't react until you have evaluated the impact of killing her on a dwindling species? Or if getting tiger blood on your clothes can, one day, give you AIDS? Really?
Covid-19.
19.
2019.
We're in the 8th month of 2021.
If tigers took 2 years to complete a jump, they'd starve in mid air.

COVID cases in the World as of today: 201,817,159
COVID deaths: 4,283,757

COVID cases in the US as of today: 36,301,744
COVID deaths in the US: 631,879

Daily cases as of today: 705,067

I don't see this tiger starving.

Quote
Nobody's avoiding your question. It's just there's so much gibberish and misinformation in your posts, that it's exhausting responding to everything, even when it's intelligible.

As you see, it can be done.
Quote
Cuomo, Whitmer, Newsom, Wolf, Murphy

I abstracted this from your answer to show how real grasping at straws works. These are Americans elected by Americans, so they are part of America's problems (you forgot people like DeSantis, BTW). They weren't elected by Chinese or Russians. And saying "They are not what real America is!" works like saying "My cancerous kidney is not me!" I.e. it will not work.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Reckall on August 06, 2021, 06:11:40 AM
Also, notice how the "indistinct future" is the last ditch refuge of noVaxxers: "I don't know if the vaccines will have unforeseen consequences..." I'll think about that bridge when (and if) I get to it. Right now I have to think about a very scary and clear present.

Maybe some of us who are questioning the experimental, EUA only, shots aren't very scared and question why some people are going out of their way to muddy the situation. 

- for example (in the US)....
scary new 'delta' variant, huge spike in cases, weekly death rates almost unchanged
no flu deaths last season, FDA pulls PCR test which can't discern between flu/covid,
'breakthrough' cases only counted if person with shot is actually hospitalized'...


And I'm still waiting for an answer to my basic question, a question I see being avoided everywhere I post it: 4% of World population, 25% of the dead by COVID. How could this happen?


- Last but not least, we have the usual, very basic factoid: These "Kung-flu" guys come from "the bestest country in the World in everythingest!!!!11", they still managed to have 25% of the World deaths with only 4% of the population, and they are still lecturing?? America, right now, is The Shining City On A Hill About What Not To Do During A Pandemic. Climb down from your high horse, fix your country, exercise some self-criticism and leave alone countries who did better than you.

And?

Once the virus reached the US, no matter if from Dr. Evil's Fortress or from a Color Out of Space, how did the US screw up so spectacularly?

But, as I wrote, I never get a direct answer to this question - here being only an example. What I get instead are lectures from these people about the best way to tackle it. ::)

Maybe because the US death total is around 14% of the total not 25%.... (and that is assuming China is telling the truth)
Maybe because we have had similar results to the EU meaning there hasn't been much difference on either side of the pond....

https://www.ecdc.europa.eu/en/cases-2019-ncov-eueea

https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#datatracker-home

By Apr, 25th 2020 the US had 25% of COVID deaths in the World. However, by Jan, 27th 2021 they had 25% of COVID cases (with 4% of the population) but only 20% of the daily deaths. So, in this you are right: my deaths number was inflated. My bad.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-global-cases-idUSKBN29W0L6

Still, the same question arises: how came that... ::)

Then, starting exactly from late January 2021, the vaccine roll-out started in earnest in the USA too. Are you telling me that it is working?

Quote
People might take you seriously if you dialed back the hyperbole and actually examined the questions some of us have raised about the pandemic, the shots, and why information is being suppressed.

Which ones and which information? Exactly.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Reckall on August 06, 2021, 06:32:23 AM
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries

Deaths per 1M population:

USA #21
Italy #16

What did Italy do wrong that it had a 128163/4377188 = 2.9% CFR
compared to the US 631362/36190896 = 1.7% CFR?

Why is Italian medicine so incompetent?  What could they have done differently (like the US) to save more of their countrymen from dying from this terrible disease?

Italy was the first Western country to be hit hard by COVID. We, literally, had to improvise and learn on the fly while both people and medical personnel were dying like flies. I never hid what the situation in Northern Italy was in the darkest days of the pandemic.

Why do I think since back then that people like Spinachat are idiots?

Then we were able to live and learn, and started to put in places measures decried in other countries (looking out, one of the most amazing sights of this pandemic is how no one learned from us). The result?

Total cases/1m pop:

USA: 108,973 #17
FRA: 95,273 #27
UK: 87,624 #32
ITA: 72,513 #53

So, it would seem that we learned how to contain the COVID, while countries hit after us meet... unforeseen difficulties. Of course, nothing will ever delete the terrible death toll we had in Mar-Apr 2020. But we learned.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Reckall on August 06, 2021, 06:41:43 AM
I see the current death rate for the Wuhan Covid

...And then there is this.

Do you know from where the so-called "Spanish Flu" actually came from?

"Epidemiological evidence suggests that a new influenza virus originated in Haskell County, Kansas, early in 1918. Evidence further suggests that this virus traveled east across the state to a huge army base, and from there to Europe. Later it began its sweep through North America, through Europe, through South America, through Asia and Africa, through isolated islands in the Pacific, through all the wide world."

John M. Barry - The Great Influenza


So, when is Haskell County, Kansas, USA, going to fix the name of the disease? ("The Kansas Flu")?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on August 06, 2021, 06:53:10 AM
Epidemiological evidence suggests...

Otherwise known as bullshit, because that's what epidemiology is. Shit mathematics masquerading as "public health expertise".
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ratman_tf on August 06, 2021, 06:58:40 AM
...In the time we are given, I guess. And COVID took the World by storm. Do you want to wait more? Fine. Let's consider this solution. We know for certain that unchecked COVID causes variants. While most virii lose power with every generational cycle, this is not the case with this one. As we are seeing, it's already the variants the cause of the resurging scare.
"Lose power"? These are viruses, not batteries. They don't work like that.

Then let's use $10 words: "As they go through generational cycles, most virii become less virulent, progressively mutating themselves into a less dangerous form."

Happier?

Quote
We also know that "long term effects" of vaccines is something being studied since vaccines were created. Two and half billions people being vaccinated in a six months span is an unprecedented sample. For every informational article that patently describes why these COVID vaccines are safe you find one article that just screams danger - while sadly lacking counterfactual data.
No, that just you in your bubble. There are real and severe side effects to the vaccines, and they're widely reported and documented on all credible medical websites. And running human experiments on 2.5 billion people doesn't miraculously cause time dilation. We don't know the long term side effects because it hasn't been long enough.

Why is this such a difficult concept to grasp?

You talk about "credible medical sites" without naming one or giving factual examples. I happened to get my info from them. Hold my hand and we will go through this together.

https://www.muhealth.org/our-stories/how-do-we-know-covid-19-vaccine-wont-have-long-term-side-effects

History tells us that severe side effects are extremely rare, and if they do occur, they usually happen within the first two months.

COVID-19 vaccine technologies have been studied for years and used in other treatments without issue.

https://www.uab.edu/reporter/resources/be-healthy/item/9544-what-are-the-long-term-side-effects-of-covid-vaccines-3-things-to-know

In his nearly 30 years studying vaccines, UAB’s Paul Goepfert, M.D., director of the Alabama Vaccine Research Clinic, has never seen anything as effective as the three COVID-19 vaccines — from Pfizer, Moderna and Johnson & Johnson — available in the United States. “A 90% decrease in risk of infections and 94% effectiveness against hospitalization for the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines is fantastic,” he said.

But what makes vaccine experts such as Goepfert confident that COVID vaccines are safe in the long-term? We all have seen billboards and TV infomercials from law firms seeking people harmed by diet drugs or acid-reflux medicines for class-action lawsuits. What makes Goepfert think that scientists won’t discover previously unsuspected problems caused by COVID vaccines in the years ahead?

There are several reasons.

Vaccines are eliminated quickly

Vaccine side effects show up within weeks if at all

Our COVID vaccine experience during the past six months

Vaccines, given in one- or two-shot doses, are very different from medicines that people take every day, potentially for years, Goepfert says. And decades of vaccine history — plus data from more than a billion people who have received COVID vaccines since December 2020 — both provide powerful proof that there is little chance that any new dangers will emerge from COVID vaccines.


Talk is cheap. When the rubber hits the road, the government does not have confidence in the vaccine's safety.

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/12/16/covid-vaccine-side-effects-compensation-lawsuit.html

Funny how they have insulated themselves from responsibility while obscuring the data.

Quote
Are adverse reactions to the COVID-19 vaccine recordable on the OSHA recordkeeping log?

DOL and OSHA, as well as other federal agencies, are working diligently to encourage COVID-19 vaccinations. OSHA does not wish to have any appearance of discouraging workers from receiving COVID-19 vaccination, and also does not wish to disincentivize employers’ vaccination efforts. As a result, OSHA will not enforce 29 CFR 1904’s recording requirements to require any employers to record worker side effects from COVID-19 vaccination through May 2022. We will reevaluate the agency’s position at that time to determine the best course of action moving forward.

https://www.osha.gov/coronavirus/faqs

But hey, I hear you can get free fries if you take the jab.

https://www.shakeshack.com/2021/05/19/get-vaxed-get-shack/
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Reckall on August 06, 2021, 08:22:57 AM
Once the virus reached the US, no matter if from Dr. Evil's Fortress or from a Color Out of Space, how did the US screw up so spectacularly?

But, as I wrote, I never get a direct answer to this question - here being only an example. What I get instead are lectures from these people about the best way to tackle it. ::)


Seriously, what do you think that the US did wrong? Because in the US we had lockdowns for months, we had universal masking mandates for months.

You seem to be angry about your father dying. That's understandable and a legitimate tragedy.

This will be long.

No, I'm not angry that my father died. He was old and had a very good life. I'm not ever angry at our own government, because I understood that everyone was learning by trial. If anything, it was the fear of applying too draconian measures that allowed the pandemic to rage. Only when truly draconian measures were applied we were able to contain it. It was too late for my father but that's life.

And, true, everybody dies, but this is not a reason to chase death. I often hear "These people died with COVID but they had another disease. Seldom I hear: "But, maybe, without COVID they would be still with us."

I'm not angry towards the US. Looking from outside I think that they incredibly messed up the answer to the pandemic, thinking that a virus can be fought with slogans like "Masks = Tyranny!" and the endemic "Give Me Liberty or Give Me Death!"

AGAIN

...Because during the Spanish Flu pandemic the US reacted exactly the same way, causing untold unnecessary deaths.

Let's take the TARDIS and go back for a few minutes to 1918. So, how were the US reacting to a deadly pandemic?

Almost no one listened to science. Masks, surprise!, were "against freedom". Doctors pleaded the various political organs to stop "War Parades" amid a pandemic. They were labeled as "against the morale" (the then sobriquet for "unpatriotic").

The result were events like the unfamous "Liberty Loan Parade" that was held in Philadelphia on Sept, 28th 1918 - when the pandemic was already so raging that the Army had cancelled the next draft call. Medical authorities of any kind implored for the parade to be cancelled. "No, because it was politically 'against the morale'". Some implored the newspaper editors to publish warnings or, at least, basic suggestions about how to protect yourself if you attended the parade. No one published anything.

Two days after the parade people literally started falling ill in the street. The result was one of the biggest superspreader events in history. Hospitals in the city were so crowded that they began refusing new patients. Sick people queued anyway outside the doors. They died on the sidewalk.

Colonel Charles Hagadorn, commander of Camp Grant, had ignored the medical guidelines for the Army (why??) and packed his barracks with young men. On Oct, 8th he read the latest flu casualty bulletin and committed suicide.

The Director of the Philadelphia Department of Public Health and Charities, Dr. Wilmer Krusen, a political appointee who hadn't acted against the parade ("There is no danger" were his exact words), assured that "There is no need to get frightened or panic stricken over exaggerated reports." (Sounds familiar?) The day after the daily death toll doubled.

And this was happening while normal illnesses, accidents and people injured in criminal acts still happened. Doctors and nurses were ran to the ground.

And then doctors and nurses started to become ill too. And to die. At the Philadelphia General Hospital, eight doctors and fifty-four nurses became sick in the span of a few hours. Ten nurses died. Fear and panic started to pervade the health-workers too.

When looking at the dead, cyanosis in some of them was so intense that some scientists actually suspected that this was not a Flu but a resurgence of the Black Death.

Did all the above stopped other "Liberty Loan Parades"? Or, when the (infected) Army returned home, "Victory Parades"?

No, of course not.

If you want to fact check, you can find everything here, with a bit of effort:

https://www.influenzaarchive.org/

WOOOOOOOSH! Back to modern times. This was then. Today the US learned, didn't they?

Well...

No. I'm not angry at the US. For sure their imprudence helped the creation of variants but, AFAIK, not the dangerous ones (it was still imprudence) I'm angry when someone from the US thinks that he can still "lecture" the World using the very same arguments that enhanced the mortality rate of a pandemic 100 years ago. (Does anyone studies, at least, his own history?) I'm angry when someone from the US denies everything: Science? It is imperfect, not credible and if you speak for it you somehow are turning it into a religion. The government? The less is said, the better. The media? Fake news! Personal experience? Hearsay! Common sense? Deep state and Pleiadians! - and then they lecture.

Military attitude and "rah rah" slogans cause orgasmic reactions when used against the struggle with a virus that - in case someone missed it - grounded a whole aircraft carrier. And when was the last time that a US aircraft carrier was put out of commission by an external agent? (my research shows that it was the USS Bismarck Sea, sunk by Japanese kamikaze pilots during the Battle of Iwo Jima in 1945; I don't know if there were more carriers put "out of commission" but not sunk; ironically, those kamikazes died, a virus multiplies).

Sure, COVID isn't as deadly as the Spanish flu. But today the World is more complex and fragile. A single ship that blocked the Suez Canal for a week disrupted commerce all over the World. Everyone is more and more responsible for everyone else. Not in everything, but at the very least in some crucial matters. Coming together in fighting a pandemic is only sane. And I don't see the US realising this. Not all in the US, at least.

So, yes, I get angry when I get some stupid lecture from the US and I'm worried when a country - any country, to be absolutely clear - behaves in a way I consider to be potentially dangerous for everybody. Sorry, but this is the way I see it.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Reckall on August 06, 2021, 08:28:38 AM
Epidemiological evidence suggests...

Otherwise known as bullshit, because that's what epidemiology is. Shit mathematics masquerading as "public health expertise".

Cite? Facts, please, with links. Either that, or a way to reach the Loa you consulted.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 06, 2021, 08:31:21 AM
It was never sold as a 100% cure. They accurately reported the percentage effectiveness against each strain as it arose and none of those were 100%.

Not even 1% efficacy. Utterly pointless and probably making infections worse if Israel's latest data is anything to go by. What a strange coincidence that all the places with the highest level of vaccination also have the highest levels of infection.

Please, get your vaccines guys. Even if it's just the J&J Vaccine which uses more "normal" tech behind it, just get it.

Fuck off, not a chance.

Somehow this "deadly" virus has failed to kill me, or leave any lasting impacts, twice. Might I not even notice it the next time?
Have you considered that you might have insidious lingering brain damage from your Covid experience? You really should consider it.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 06, 2021, 08:34:14 AM
Epidemiological evidence suggests...

Otherwise known as bullshit, because that's what epidemiology is. Shit mathematics masquerading as "public health expertise".
Then tell us what method you use to crunch the data.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on August 06, 2021, 08:45:05 AM
...In the time we are given, I guess. And COVID took the World by storm. Do you want to wait more? Fine. Let's consider this solution. We know for certain that unchecked COVID causes variants. While most virii lose power with every generational cycle, this is not the case with this one. As we are seeing, it's already the variants the cause of the resurging scare.
"Lose power"? These are viruses, not batteries. They don't work like that.

Then let's use $10 words: "As they go through generational cycles, most virii become less virulent, progressively mutating themselves into a less dangerous form."

Happier?
Yes, that's how viruses work. Especially zoonotic viruses that have recently jumped to human hosts. Viruses that kill their host stop replicating, so they have an evolutionary incentive to become more infectious, but less deadly.

Which perfectly describes the Delta variant, despite your uninformed claim otherwise.

You talk about "credible medical sites" without naming one or giving factual examples. I happened to get my info from them. Hold my hand and we will go through this together.
At least do the most basic research:
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/safety/adverse-events.html

You disagree with these abstracts? Give me alternatives. Don't babble about "serious medical sites", give me the links. Only a request: please, avoid Breitbart news.
I've never read Breitbart news. But if you can't even defend your favorite news site, it's probably not very good, is it?

Quote
And in this situation the best you can think of is "No! Wait!" Seriously? If a tiger is about to jump you, you don't react until you have evaluated the impact of killing her on a dwindling species? Or if getting tiger blood on your clothes can, one day, give you AIDS? Really?
Covid-19.
19.
2019.
We're in the 8th month of 2021.
If tigers took 2 years to complete a jump, they'd starve in mid air.

COVID cases in the World as of today: 201,817,159
COVID deaths: 4,283,757

COVID cases in the US as of today: 36,301,744
COVID deaths in the US: 631,879

Daily cases as of today: 705,067

I don't see this tiger starving.
You can't even follow a basic metaphor, can you?

We're more than 20 months into the pandemic, and you're still acting like it's this sudden emergency and we need to act without thought and ignore all possible long term consequences.

Quote
Cuomo, Whitmer, Newsom, Wolf, Murphy

I abstracted this from your answer to show how real grasping at straws works. These are Americans elected by Americans, so they are part of America's problems (you forgot people like DeSantis, BTW). They weren't elected by Chinese or Russians. And saying "They are not what real America is!" works like saying "My cancerous kidney is not me!" I.e. it will not work.
Your inability to follow a simple chain of logic once more leads to irrational gibberish. (Chinese elections, really?)

This isn't a hard concept. Cuomo, Whitmer, Newsom, Wolf, and Murphy killed tens of thousand of elderly, because they forced patients with covid-19 into nursing homes. Instead of protecting the most vulnerable, they killed them. This is one the biggest reasons why the death rates in those states are among the worst in the nation. And since all 5 of those states are among the top 11 states in terms of population, their actions have had a disproportionate effect on the death rate for the nation as a whole.

DeSantis did not do this.

The more general point I made is that one of the largest factors contributing to different death rates in otherwise similar nations is how well they cared for their elderly in congregate care. In nations where covid-19 cases in this group were kept low, the death rate tended to be low. In those nations where covid-19 cases spread like wildfire in this group, the death rate was much higher. Along with obesity and the youthfulness of the population, it's one of the biggest reasons why death rates varied so much between different countries.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on August 06, 2021, 08:47:01 AM
Have you considered that you might have insidious lingering brain damage from your Covid experience? You really should consider it.

Have you considered the possibility you're a cowardly, brainwashed moron?

I didn't have a "covid experience", I had the sniffles, like the overwhelming majority who have been infected with this inconsequential virus.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on August 06, 2021, 08:53:07 AM
I'm not ever angry at our own government, because I understood that everyone was learning by trial. If anything, it was the fear of applying too draconian measures that allowed the pandemic to rage. Only when truly draconian measures were applied we were able to contain it.
Except that's false. The most dracocian measures haven't contained it. The only things that seem to have worked in containing the disease are border controls in island nations and banning mass indoor gatherings. Otherwise, covid-19 spreads how it wants to spread.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 06, 2021, 08:55:05 AM
Have you considered that you might have insidious lingering brain damage from your Covid experience? You really should consider it.

Have you considered the possibility you're a cowardly, brainwashed moron?

I didn't have a "covid experience", I had the sniffles, like the overwhelming majority who have been infected with this inconsequential virus.
I'm cowardly? Bring it on big guy... Watcha gonna do?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Reckall on August 06, 2021, 08:57:34 AM
Talk is cheap. When the rubber hits the road, the government does not have confidence in the vaccine's safety.

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/12/16/covid-vaccine-side-effects-compensation-lawsuit.html

Funny how they have insulated themselves from responsibility

Are you even aware that this is incredibly normal and why?

I'll leave the effort to find the answer to you for a while. Meanwhile, here is a clue from the very link you posted:

"unless there’s “willful misconduct” by the company."

Quote
while obscuring the data.

Which data? And why are so sure that this is happening? Links, please.

Because, as a policeman friend of mine uses to say, "It is easy to point to an empty space and say: "The data that proves I'm right was there! So, I'm right!"
Quote
Quote
Are adverse reactions to the COVID-19 vaccine recordable on the OSHA recordkeeping log?

DOL and OSHA, as well as other federal agencies, are working diligently to encourage COVID-19 vaccinations. OSHA does not wish to have any appearance of discouraging workers from receiving COVID-19 vaccination, and also does not wish to disincentivize employers’ vaccination efforts. As a result, OSHA will not enforce 29 CFR 1904’s recording requirements to require any employers to record worker side effects from COVID-19 vaccination through May 2022. We will reevaluate the agency’s position at that time to determine the best course of action moving forward.

https://www.osha.gov/coronavirus/faqs

Amazing. The very first line in this link says:

Given the evolving nature of the pandemic, OSHA is in the process of reviewing and updating this document. These materials may no longer represent current OSHA recommendations and guidance.For the most up-to-date information, consult Protecting Workers Guidance.

Since I see that you got an "Evil Hat" attitude, I'll dig further for you.

Here is the link we are provided. You have to look here now:

https://www.osha.gov/coronavirus/safework

Point 9. While it confirms what you posted, here is the last line.

Individuals may choose to submit adverse reactions to the federal Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System.

And we are even openly given the link: https://vaers.hhs.gov/reportevent.html

You are not forced to stay silent at all. You want to report? You have our blessing.

And you get fries. I didn't.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on August 06, 2021, 08:58:36 AM
I'm cowardly? Bring it on big guy... Watcha gonna do?

Call you out for the pathetic melt that you are.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 06, 2021, 09:02:35 AM
I'm cowardly? Bring it on big guy... Watcha gonna do?

Call you out for the pathetic melt that you are.
And then...?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on August 06, 2021, 09:05:58 AM
I see the current death rate for the Wuhan Covid

...And then there is this.

Do you know from where the so-called "Spanish Flu" actually came from?

"Epidemiological evidence suggests that a new influenza virus originated in Haskell County, Kansas, early in 1918. Evidence further suggests that this virus traveled east across the state to a huge army base, and from there to Europe. Later it began its sweep through North America, through Europe, through South America, through Asia and Africa, through isolated islands in the Pacific, through all the wide world."

John M. Barry - The Great Influenza


So, when is Haskell County, Kansas, USA, going to fix the name of the disease? ("The Kansas Flu")?
Once again, you're spreading bad information.

Haskell County is no longer considered a serious candidate for the origin of the 1918 flu, because there were cases in NYC at the same time. A North American origin remains possible, but it's not conclusive. There was also an outbreak at a British military camp in France in 1916, which may have been the start of the pandemic. Or it may have originated among laborers in Northern China in 1917.

There are problems with all of these theories. Where the 1918 flu originated is still unknown.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Reckall on August 06, 2021, 09:36:56 AM
...In the time we are given, I guess. And COVID took the World by storm. Do you want to wait more? Fine. Let's consider this solution. We know for certain that unchecked COVID causes variants. While most virii lose power with every generational cycle, this is not the case with this one. As we are seeing, it's already the variants the cause of the resurging scare.
"Lose power"? These are viruses, not batteries. They don't work like that.

Then let's use $10 words: "As they go through generational cycles, most virii become less virulent, progressively mutating themselves into a less dangerous form."

Happier?
Yes, that's how viruses work. Especially zoonotic viruses that have recently jumped to human hosts. Viruses that kill their host stop replicating, so they have an evolutionary incentive to become more infectious, but less deadly.

Which perfectly describes the Delta variant, despite your uninformed claim otherwise.

At which point you missed:

While most virii lose power with every generational cycle, this is not the case with this one.

...right in the post you answered?

You didn't like the expression "losing power", I gave another definition. It is still not the case with this one.
Quote
You talk about "credible medical sites" without naming one or giving factual examples. I happened to get my info from them. Hold my hand and we will go through this together.
At least do the most basic research:
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/safety/adverse-events.html

I actually was about to post a link to the CDC. This one:

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/safety/safety-of-vaccines.html

What You Need to Know

COVID-19 vaccines are safe and effective.

Millions of people in the United States have received COVID-19 vaccines under the most intense safety monitoring in U.S. history.

CDC recommends you get a COVID-19 vaccine as soon as possible.

If you are fully vaccinated, you can resume activities that you did prior to the pandemic. Learn more about what you can do when you have been fully vaccinated.


And then unsurprisingly they have a page about adverse reactions. One day I'll tell you what happened to me during a period of stress and insomnia, and my doctor prescribed me "some bland drops that will help you to sleep; we prescribe them to children, really!" One night to remember. S*it happens.

Yet, you can find what the CDC's recommendation is front and center on the first page.

...But you know how the CDC is these days: Holy Word when they agree with you, proof that science is trash when they change a measure against COVID. ::)
Quote
You disagree with these abstracts? Give me alternatives. Don't babble about "serious medical sites", give me the links. Only a request: please, avoid Breitbart news.
I've never read Breitbart news. But if you can't even defend your favorite news site, it's probably not very good, is it?

"My favourite news site" being?

Quote
You can't even follow a basic metaphor, can you?

We're more than 20 months into the pandemic, and you're still acting like it's this sudden emergency and we need to act without thought and ignore all possible long term consequences.

It is always interesting to read about "long term consequences" and "the Delta variant" in the same post, without the poster even trying to connect the two...

Quote
Quote
Cuomo, Whitmer, Newsom, Wolf, Murphy

I abstracted this from your answer to show how real grasping at straws works. These are Americans elected by Americans, so they are part of America's problems (you forgot people like DeSantis, BTW). They weren't elected by Chinese or Russians. And saying "They are not what real America is!" works like saying "My cancerous kidney is not me!" I.e. it will not work.
Your inability to follow a simple chain of logic once more leads to irrational gibberish. (Chinese elections, really?)

Not Chinese elections (comma) really.

Quote
This isn't a hard concept. Cuomo, Whitmer, Newsom, Wolf, and Murphy killed tens of thousand of elderly, because they forced patients with covid-19 into nursing homes. Instead of protecting the most vulnerable, they killed them. This is one the biggest reasons why the death rates in those states are among the worst in the nation. And since all 5 of those states are among the top 11 states in terms of population, their actions have had a disproportionate effect on the death rate for the nation as a whole.

...And this makes them, somehow, "non Americans"? Not part of "how America messed up the answer to the pandemic"? Because that was my point.

Quote
DeSantis did not do this.

Admittedly, no. DeSantis, as often repeated, pulled a different stunt - both last year and this year:

https://www.news4jax.com/news/florida/2021/07/23/floridas-covid-19-surge-continues-adds-73199-cases-in-week/

Florida is seeing a surge in cases, hospitalizations and deaths as it grapples with the highly transmissible delta variant of the novel coronavirus and lagging vaccination rates. Hospital officials across the state say beds are filling up with COVID-19 patients. (but what "Hospital officials" know, right?)

Dr. David Rubin, director of PolicyLab at Children’s Hospital of Philadelphia, told our sister station, WKMG-TV, that Florida is the epicenter of transmissions.

“It’s very, very clear right now that what’s responsible for what’s going on are a large number of unvaccinated individuals and a large disease reservoir now and when this virus has an opportunity to propagate it will,” Rubin said.


Still, despite the recent surge, DeSantis said the state will not return to government mandates — in May, he barred municipalities from imposing their own and banned businesses from requiring proof of vaccination. He said it is up to individuals on how they deal with the pandemic.

Quote
The more general point I made is that one of the largest factors contributing to different death rates in otherwise similar nations is how well they cared for their elderly in congregate care. In nations where covid-19 cases in this group were kept low, the death rate tended to be low. In those nations where covid-19 cases spread like wildfire in this group, the death rate was much higher. Along with obesity and the youthfulness of the population, it's one of the biggest reasons why death rates varied so much between different countries.

You know? I would really like to live in a World where things are so easy.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Reckall on August 06, 2021, 09:47:11 AM
I'm not ever angry at our own government, because I understood that everyone was learning by trial. If anything, it was the fear of applying too draconian measures that allowed the pandemic to rage. Only when truly draconian measures were applied we were able to contain it.
Except that's false. The most dracocian measures haven't contained it.

Except that here they did. As I posted earlier, no one can cancel the death toll of the first wave in Italy  - but that death toll (along with the initial wave of cases) is exactly the yardstick that shows how, after the Italian government went against the virus with everything they had, the transmission index collapsed.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on August 06, 2021, 09:53:01 AM
...In the time we are given, I guess. And COVID took the World by storm. Do you want to wait more? Fine. Let's consider this solution. We know for certain that unchecked COVID causes variants. While most virii lose power with every generational cycle, this is not the case with this one. As we are seeing, it's already the variants the cause of the resurging scare.
"Lose power"? These are viruses, not batteries. They don't work like that.

Then let's use $10 words: "As they go through generational cycles, most virii become less virulent, progressively mutating themselves into a less dangerous form."

Happier?
Yes, that's how viruses work. Especially zoonotic viruses that have recently jumped to human hosts. Viruses that kill their host stop replicating, so they have an evolutionary incentive to become more infectious, but less deadly.

Which perfectly describes the Delta variant, despite your uninformed claim otherwise.

At which point you missed:

While most virii lose power with every generational cycle, this is not the case with this one.

...right in the post you answered?

You didn't like the expression "losing power", I gave another definition. It is still not the case with this one.
Is your reading comprehension this bad?

I just said that the Delta variant is more transmissible, but less deadly. As predicted. As is usually the case. You're claimed otherwise, and I was pointing out you're wrong.

So of course I saw your false claim, because I explicitly refuted it.

Quote
You talk about "credible medical sites" without naming one or giving factual examples. I happened to get my info from them. Hold my hand and we will go through this together.
At least do the most basic research:
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/safety/adverse-events.html

I actually was about to post a link to the CDC.
Glad you admit you were wrong.

Quote
Quote
Cuomo, Whitmer, Newsom, Wolf, Murphy

I abstracted this from your answer to show how real grasping at straws works. These are Americans elected by Americans, so they are part of America's problems (you forgot people like DeSantis, BTW). They weren't elected by Chinese or Russians. And saying "They are not what real America is!" works like saying "My cancerous kidney is not me!" I.e. it will not work.
Your inability to follow a simple chain of logic once more leads to irrational gibberish. (Chinese elections, really?)

Not Chinese elections (comma) really.

Quote
This isn't a hard concept. Cuomo, Whitmer, Newsom, Wolf, and Murphy killed tens of thousand of elderly, because they forced patients with covid-19 into nursing homes. Instead of protecting the most vulnerable, they killed them. This is one the biggest reasons why the death rates in those states are among the worst in the nation. And since all 5 of those states are among the top 11 states in terms of population, their actions have had a disproportionate effect on the death rate for the nation as a whole.

...And this makes them, somehow, "non Americans"? Not part of "how America messed up the answer to the pandemic"? Because that was my point.
No, you asked why the death rate varies from country to country. I explained why. I never said anything about their not being Americans.

Are you suffering from brain damage? Because you don't seem to be replying to what I said.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Reckall on August 06, 2021, 09:55:43 AM
H. Scott Apley, who according to the Galveston News was a member of the Galveston County Republican Party and Dickinson City council, was 45 years old. No listed pre-existing conditions.

On Facebook last week he posted:

“In 6 months, we’ve gone from the vax ending the pandemic, to you can still get Covid even if vaxxed, to you can pass Covid onto others even if vaxxed, to you can still die of Covid even if vaxxed, to the unvaxxed are killing the vaxxed,” the post read.

Apley was admitted to a Galveston hospital two days after that post with pneumonia-like symptoms, according to a GoFundMe page. He tested positive for COVID-19 and was placed on a ventilator.

He died around 3 a.m. Wednesday, according to the GoFundMe.

His wife and 5-month-old son also tested positive for the virus, KTRK reported.

This could be any of you guys here saying exactly the same kind of stuff this guy posted last week. And now he's dead.

Please, get your vaccines guys. Even if it's just the J&J Vaccine which uses more "normal" tech behind it, just get it.
He was morbidly obese.  He may have died from Covid, or he may have died with Covid.

Let me see if I understood this right... This guy was living his life before getting COVID and died after getting COVID?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on August 06, 2021, 09:55:48 AM
I'm not ever angry at our own government, because I understood that everyone was learning by trial. If anything, it was the fear of applying too draconian measures that allowed the pandemic to rage. Only when truly draconian measures were applied we were able to contain it.
Except that's false. The most dracocian measures haven't contained it.

Except that here they did. As I posted earlier, no one can cancel the death toll of the first wave in Italy  - but that death toll (along with the initial wave of cases) is exactly the yardstick that shows how, after the Italian government went against the virus with everything they had, the transmission index collapsed.
If everyone who could be infected was infected, the number of cases drops. The Italian government can't take credit for their failure.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 06, 2021, 10:00:24 AM
Watch how the data is being cooked.. Consider that the dramatically higher rate of infection means that even with a lower percentage of deaths, Delta can still result in an overall increase in deaths. Right now, it is certainly contributing to a greater demand for hospitalizations, mostly among the non-vaccinated.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: moonsweeper on August 06, 2021, 10:01:34 AM

Quote
Are adverse reactions to the COVID-19 vaccine recordable on the OSHA recordkeeping log?

DOL and OSHA, as well as other federal agencies, are working diligently to encourage COVID-19 vaccinations. OSHA does not wish to have any appearance of discouraging workers from receiving COVID-19 vaccination, and also does not wish to disincentivize employers’ vaccination efforts. As a result, OSHA will not enforce 29 CFR 1904’s recording requirements to require any employers to record worker side effects from COVID-19 vaccination through May 2022. We will reevaluate the agency’s position at that time to determine the best course of action moving forward.

https://www.osha.gov/coronavirus/faqs


Amazing. The very first line in this link says:

Given the evolving nature of the pandemic, OSHA is in the process of reviewing and updating this document. These materials may no longer represent current OSHA recommendations and guidance.For the most up-to-date information, consult Protecting Workers Guidance.

Since I see that you got an "Evil Hat" attitude, I'll dig further for you.

Here is the link we are provided. You have to look here now:

https://www.osha.gov/coronavirus/safework

Point 9. While it confirms what you posted, here is the last line.

Individuals may choose to submit adverse reactions to the federal Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System.

And we are even openly given the link: https://vaers.hhs.gov/reportevent.html

You are not forced to stay silent at all. You want to report? You have our blessing.

And you get fries. I didn't.

The actual line is...
Quote
Note on recording adverse reactions to vaccines: DOL and OSHA, as well as other federal agencies, are working diligently to encourage COVID-19 vaccinations. OSHA does not want to give any suggestion of discouraging workers from receiving COVID-19 vaccination or to disincentivize employers' vaccination efforts. As a result, OSHA will not enforce 29 CFR 1904's recording requirements to require any employers to record worker side effects from COVID-19 vaccination through May 2022. OSHA will reevaluate the agency's position at that time to determine the best course of action moving forward. Individuals may choose to submit adverse reactions to the federal Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System.

Since I am guessing you do not know much about employment in the US and OSHA, You probably do not know about the 'general duty clause' for OSHA.  All employers are legally required to take all possible steps to create a safe work environment.  Under OSHA, they are required to be proactive, including documenting any and all safety hazards associated with such.  Under regular OSHA rules the employer is always in violation for failing to record any possible safety issues.  That is why there is an emphasized 'note' under that heading...OSHA is specifically telling companies that they will not be held to the general duty clause (The basis for all OSHA mandates) at this time, in this one particular instance...

In other words, OSHA has told companies that their core safety requirement is not going to be applied for the jab side effects...

Now why would they want the company to ignore their basic recording requirement in this case?...They still require it for businesses that mandate flu and other vaccines...

HR departments that mandate other vaccines already have all the paperwork and knowledge to fill it out.  The ones that don't are used to dealing with new regulations on a regular basis.  So this would be an almost perfect opportunity to build a real database of possible side effects and adverse reactions from the US worker population...yet OSHA explicitly removed it.

Unless you believe an actual US government bureaucracy is actively trying to reduce the amount of paperwork it requires (but only in this one critically important instance...you know...'the worst pandemic evuh').
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on August 06, 2021, 10:03:14 AM
Watch how the data is being cooked.. Consider that the dramatically higher rate of infection means that even with a lower percentage of deaths, Delta can still result in an overall increase in deaths. Right now, it is certainly contributing to a greater demand for hospitalizations, mostly among the non-vaccinated.
That's valid, but in most areas it seems to be resulting in a more cases, but fewer deaths.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Reckall on August 06, 2021, 10:27:24 AM
I see the current death rate for the Wuhan Covid

...And then there is this.

Do you know from where the so-called "Spanish Flu" actually came from?

"Epidemiological evidence suggests that a new influenza virus originated in Haskell County, Kansas, early in 1918. Evidence further suggests that this virus traveled east across the state to a huge army base, and from there to Europe. Later it began its sweep through North America, through Europe, through South America, through Asia and Africa, through isolated islands in the Pacific, through all the wide world."

John M. Barry - The Great Influenza


So, when is Haskell County, Kansas, USA, going to fix the name of the disease? ("The Kansas Flu")?
Once again

Where else?

Quote
, you're spreading bad information.

I gave you a source. I would have asked for yours, but don't worry, I did for you the work you didn't.

True, there are theories that the Spanish Flu may have originated somewhere else. Wikipedia say so, so it must be true. John M. Barry himself designates Haskell County as "the end of the line" in terms of research - i.e. you can trace the pandemic to there and no further. This doesn't mean that Haskell was hit by an unknown carriers from elsewhere. However...
Quote
Haskell County is no longer considered a serious candidate for the origin of the 1918 flu

This is misinformation. Haskell County is still considered the origin off the Spanish Flu pandemic until proven otherwise. A chain of factual, demonstrable events leads there, and there the line stops. The rest are theories, and theories are not "proof".

Even if we "accept" them, the question would become: "Which one?" Virii do not appear all over the place, unless it is a bioterrorist attack. They have a precise source (and we should still be able to trace that source to Haskell County). Maybe one day a different point of origin for the Spanish Flu will be determined. Maybe this pandemic will further the studies on that one too. Until then, this is what we know.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Eirikrautha on August 06, 2021, 10:40:25 AM
H. Scott Apley, who according to the Galveston News was a member of the Galveston County Republican Party and Dickinson City council, was 45 years old. No listed pre-existing conditions.

On Facebook last week he posted:

“In 6 months, we’ve gone from the vax ending the pandemic, to you can still get Covid even if vaxxed, to you can pass Covid onto others even if vaxxed, to you can still die of Covid even if vaxxed, to the unvaxxed are killing the vaxxed,” the post read.

Apley was admitted to a Galveston hospital two days after that post with pneumonia-like symptoms, according to a GoFundMe page. He tested positive for COVID-19 and was placed on a ventilator.

He died around 3 a.m. Wednesday, according to the GoFundMe.

His wife and 5-month-old son also tested positive for the virus, KTRK reported.

This could be any of you guys here saying exactly the same kind of stuff this guy posted last week. And now he's dead.

Please, get your vaccines guys. Even if it's just the J&J Vaccine which uses more "normal" tech behind it, just get it.
He was morbidly obese.  He may have died from Covid, or he may have died with Covid.

Let me see if I understood this right... This guy was living his life before getting COVID and died after getting COVID?
And you accused Pat of living in a simplistic world?

There is the possibility that he was living his life with no health issues, he got Covid, the effects of Covid caused strain on his body's systems and he died of the results of having Covid.

There is the possibility that he was living his life with chronic or acute health issues, he went to the hospital and was tested for Covid (the news reports state he was not admitted for Covid and was only tested after he went to the hospital), and he died of whatever chronic or acute health issues he had, while carrying Covid in his system.

Provide your evidence for either.  You don't know (in fact, none except his family does).  But you are certainly quick to jump to one.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on August 06, 2021, 10:49:44 AM
I see the current death rate for the Wuhan Covid

...And then there is this.

Do you know from where the so-called "Spanish Flu" actually came from?

"Epidemiological evidence suggests that a new influenza virus originated in Haskell County, Kansas, early in 1918. Evidence further suggests that this virus traveled east across the state to a huge army base, and from there to Europe. Later it began its sweep through North America, through Europe, through South America, through Asia and Africa, through isolated islands in the Pacific, through all the wide world."

John M. Barry - The Great Influenza


So, when is Haskell County, Kansas, USA, going to fix the name of the disease? ("The Kansas Flu")?
Once again

Where else?
I literally explained three other possible origin sites in the rest of my post. You chose to cut out everything except the first two words and play dumb, because you're dishonest.

Crosby's theory that it started in Haskell was disproven by Worobey, Cox, and Gill:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6381288/

A disproven theory is not the default.

This is misinformation. Haskell County is still considered the origin off the Spanish Flu pandemic until proven otherwise. A chain of factual, demonstrable events leads there, and there the line stops. The rest are theories, and theories are not "proof".
<face palm gif>

That's not what "theory" means.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Eirikrautha on August 06, 2021, 10:55:24 AM
I'm not ever angry at our own government, because I understood that everyone was learning by trial. If anything, it was the fear of applying too draconian measures that allowed the pandemic to rage. Only when truly draconian measures were applied we were able to contain it.
Except that's false. The most dracocian measures haven't contained it.

Except that here they did. As I posted earlier, no one can cancel the death toll of the first wave in Italy  - but that death toll (along with the initial wave of cases) is exactly the yardstick that shows how, after the Italian government went against the virus with everything they had, the transmission index collapsed.
If everyone who could be infected was infected, the number of cases drops. The Italian government can't take credit for their failure.
You're wasting your breath.  Remember, this poster has high standards for sources, until he posts links to a local Jacksonville TV station to bash DeSantis (and we know TV news has no reason to bash DeSantis, now that he is becoming a political frontrunner).  Remember, the US botched Covid, but Italy had a higher CFR.  Remember, the US didn't know how to stop the virus (because you can't) and that's bad, but Italy didn't know either, and that's OK.  Seeing a pattern?

I'd almost suspect paid disinformation, since Reckall does the normal "throw as many points as possible in one post so that hopefully some slip through the cracks" that is common to that.  But, the whole Italian nationalism thing would be really weird for a paid disruptor (and who'd do that here, of all places, anyway?), so he's probably just well versed in the tactics (like, when you provided a solid explanation for most US deaths, re. nursing homes, he just calls it "simplistic", since he can't contradict it).  So, it's your breath to waste, but I don't get the feeling you are going to even get a fair hearing...
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Trond on August 06, 2021, 11:09:00 AM
I think this whole notion on the left, that they should demand everyone get a vaccine, just imploded:

Someone on the left just came up with the idea that demanding vaccines is racist. (see Ben Shapiro videos)
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Reckall on August 06, 2021, 11:15:33 AM
Since I am guessing you do not know much about employment in the US and OSHA, You probably do not know about the 'general duty clause' for OSHA.

First of all, I'm glad to get an answer based on a quote I had to pull out - if you get my meaning :D

True, I have no experience with employment in the USA. I can only look from afar.

From my vantage point, however, I see that OSHA and, I guess, a lot of other entities in the US, have to deal with a bizarre situation.

When it was the last time that someone protested against the mandatory used of helmets in specific work environments? Or of special facial protections? Or against regular maintenance and inspections? Or against specific rules that "limit your liberty" when it becomes an hazard? (I'm talking about "No Smoking near the Gas Pump", not about "In This Area Allow to Aliens to Kidnap You.")

Exactly.

From here we have the obvious, sane, next step.

All employers are legally required to take all possible steps to create a safe work environment.  Under OSHA, they are required to be proactive, including documenting any and all safety hazards associated with such.

However, just mention "masks" during a pandemic and things become incendiary. Vaccines are, literally, how "they" (who is seldom specified) will control you.

...And all of sudden OSHA has to deal with norms still related with work safety, but that, in this specific case, may cause a strong pushback. The needs are the same, but the rules all of sudden are different.

So, what do you do?

IMHO (this is my opinion and nothing else, I want for this to be clear) OSHA is trying to avoid potentially incendiary norms and even language while, still, actually, getting the same result. True...

OSHA is specifically telling companies that they will not be held to the general duty clause (The basis for all OSHA mandates) at this time, in this one particular instance...

...But you have the words right there. Helmets are fine, vaccines are special. OSHA however gives you both freedom to choose (and you know how the US are: FREEEEEEEDOM!!!! ::) ) and the link where you can report side effects of your vaccine. Your choice!

Now, tell me, how many suffering from side effects will not report them?

Is this perfect? I don't know. You know US bureaucracy better than me, so you will have a better answer. What I see is a way to preserve the need to know about vaccines' side effects while avoiding unneeded confrontations.
Quote
Unless you believe an actual US government bureaucracy is actively trying to reduce the amount of paperwork it requires (but only in this one critically important instance...you know...'the worst pandemic evuh').

This is not, of course, "the worst pandemic evuh". What I think, however, is that this is the first pandemic in history to hit a World convinced that "These things don't happen anymore!!!1 It is all a ploy of the #DeepState allied with #BillGates!!!"
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Reckall on August 06, 2021, 11:20:50 AM
You're wasting your breath.  Remember, this poster has high standards for sources, until he posts links to a local Jacksonville TV station to bash DeSantis (and we know TV news has no reason to bash DeSantis, now that he is becoming a political frontrunner).  Remember, the US botched Covid, but Italy had a higher CFR.  Remember, the US didn't know how to stop the virus (because you can't) and that's bad, but Italy didn't know either, and that's OK.  Seeing a pattern?

Yup. That pontificating without posting links is easier. :D

Quote
I'd almost suspect paid disinformation, since Reckall does the normal "throw as many points as possible in one post so that hopefully some slip through the cracks" that is common to that.  But, the whole Italian nationalism thing would be really weird for a paid disruptor (and who'd do that here, of all places, anyway?), so he's probably just well versed in the tactics (like, when you provided a solid explanation for most US deaths, re. nursing homes, he just calls it "simplistic", since he can't contradict it).  So, it's your breath to waste, but I don't get the feeling you are going to even get a fair hearing...

Amazing: not a single thing you wrote is true. Why? Because I say so.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: GeekyBugle on August 06, 2021, 11:35:18 AM

Quote
Are adverse reactions to the COVID-19 vaccine recordable on the OSHA recordkeeping log?

DOL and OSHA, as well as other federal agencies, are working diligently to encourage COVID-19 vaccinations. OSHA does not wish to have any appearance of discouraging workers from receiving COVID-19 vaccination, and also does not wish to disincentivize employers’ vaccination efforts. As a result, OSHA will not enforce 29 CFR 1904’s recording requirements to require any employers to record worker side effects from COVID-19 vaccination through May 2022. We will reevaluate the agency’s position at that time to determine the best course of action moving forward.

https://www.osha.gov/coronavirus/faqs


Amazing. The very first line in this link says:

Given the evolving nature of the pandemic, OSHA is in the process of reviewing and updating this document. These materials may no longer represent current OSHA recommendations and guidance.For the most up-to-date information, consult Protecting Workers Guidance.

Since I see that you got an "Evil Hat" attitude, I'll dig further for you.

Here is the link we are provided. You have to look here now:

https://www.osha.gov/coronavirus/safework

Point 9. While it confirms what you posted, here is the last line.

Individuals may choose to submit adverse reactions to the federal Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System.

And we are even openly given the link: https://vaers.hhs.gov/reportevent.html

You are not forced to stay silent at all. You want to report? You have our blessing.

And you get fries. I didn't.

The actual line is...
Quote
Note on recording adverse reactions to vaccines: DOL and OSHA, as well as other federal agencies, are working diligently to encourage COVID-19 vaccinations. OSHA does not want to give any suggestion of discouraging workers from receiving COVID-19 vaccination or to disincentivize employers' vaccination efforts. As a result, OSHA will not enforce 29 CFR 1904's recording requirements to require any employers to record worker side effects from COVID-19 vaccination through May 2022. OSHA will reevaluate the agency's position at that time to determine the best course of action moving forward. Individuals may choose to submit adverse reactions to the federal Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System.

Since I am guessing you do not know much about employment in the US and OSHA, You probably do not know about the 'general duty clause' for OSHA.  All employers are legally required to take all possible steps to create a safe work environment.  Under OSHA, they are required to be proactive, including documenting any and all safety hazards associated with such.  Under regular OSHA rules the employer is always in violation for failing to record any possible safety issues.  That is why there is an emphasized 'note' under that heading...OSHA is specifically telling companies that they will not be held to the general duty clause (The basis for all OSHA mandates) at this time, in this one particular instance...

In other words, OSHA has told companies that their core safety requirement is not going to be applied for the jab side effects...

Now why would they want the company to ignore their basic recording requirement in this case?...They still require it for businesses that mandate flu and other vaccines...

HR departments that mandate other vaccines already have all the paperwork and knowledge to fill it out.  The ones that don't are used to dealing with new regulations on a regular basis.  So this would be an almost perfect opportunity to build a real database of possible side effects and adverse reactions from the US worker population...yet OSHA explicitly removed it.

Unless you believe an actual US government bureaucracy is actively trying to reduce the amount of paperwork it requires (but only in this one critically important instance...you know...'the worst pandemic evuh').

I might have a possible explanation:

IF companies do the recording as normal it's on paper from entities that have no incentive in lying about.

BUT if they don't, then any and all claims by individuals can be dismissed and it makes it harder to connect the dots.

Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Reckall on August 06, 2021, 12:16:22 PM

I literally explained three other possible origin sites in the rest of my post. You chose to cut out everything except the first two words and play dumb, because you're dishonest.

Actually I didn't. But lets run with this ball for a while:

Quote
Crosby's theory that it started in Haskell was disproven by Worobey, Cox, and Gill:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6381288/

Finally, a link! Hooray. A link with a flaw right when it tackles Barry's conclusion for the first time:

"The significance of the incident, in Barry’s view, lies in its timing and location. These deaths in rural Kansas took place in an area only a few hundred miles from a US Army Camp where, a few weeks later, Barry reports, one of the first recorded outbreaks of the pandemic may be said to have occurred."

Barry doesn't say that. I happen to have his study right here. Let's see what he actually says:

"In the last week of February 1918, Dean Nilson, Ernest Elliot, John Bottom, and probably several others unnamed by the local paper traveled from Haskell, where “severe influenza” was raging, to Funston. They probably arrived between February 28 and March 2, and the camp hospital first began receiving soldiers with influenza on March 4. This timing precisely fits the incubation period of influenza."

Barry doesn't traces the spread of the virus "because it happened in a general area". He points out the arrival of at least three men, named, from Haskell to Funston, and how the timing of the first cases in Funston coincides with "the incubation period of influenza".

"Within three weeks eleven hundred troops at Funston were sick enough to require hospitalization. Only a trickle of people moved back and forth between Haskell and Funston, but a river of soldiers moved between Funston, other army bases, and France. Two weeks after the first case at Funston, on March 18, influenza surfaced at both Camps Forrest and Greenleaf in Georgia; 10 percent of the forces at both camps would report sick."

So, Barry traces the movement of people from an infected county to an Army base, how that Army base became infected with clockwork precision, and does furter tracing between that base and others places that, later, reported cases.

How far we are from the idea of "an area only a few hundred miles from a US Army Camp" and nothing else pimped in that study, hm?

Anyway, it was a long study, and it looks interesting, so I'll read it (I wonder how many else did the same).

Quote
That's not what "theory" means.

I'm listening.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on August 06, 2021, 12:27:48 PM
Oh dear, the "vaccines" don't actually do a thing for the Delta variant: https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-delta-infections-produce-similar-levels-of-virus-regardless-of-vaccination-status-suggests-early-analysis-12374244

Sly Views, but the fact that it's even being reported in the scum media says something. Almost as though the "vaccines" don't fucking work...
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Reckall on August 06, 2021, 12:55:17 PM
H. Scott Apley, who according to the Galveston News was a member of the Galveston County Republican Party and Dickinson City council, was 45 years old. No listed pre-existing conditions.

On Facebook last week he posted:

“In 6 months, we’ve gone from the vax ending the pandemic, to you can still get Covid even if vaxxed, to you can pass Covid onto others even if vaxxed, to you can still die of Covid even if vaxxed, to the unvaxxed are killing the vaxxed,” the post read.

Apley was admitted to a Galveston hospital two days after that post with pneumonia-like symptoms, according to a GoFundMe page. He tested positive for COVID-19 and was placed on a ventilator.

He died around 3 a.m. Wednesday, according to the GoFundMe.

His wife and 5-month-old son also tested positive for the virus, KTRK reported.

This could be any of you guys here saying exactly the same kind of stuff this guy posted last week. And now he's dead.

Please, get your vaccines guys. Even if it's just the J&J Vaccine which uses more "normal" tech behind it, just get it.
He was morbidly obese.  He may have died from Covid, or he may have died with Covid.

Let me see if I understood this right... This guy was living his life before getting COVID and died after getting COVID?
And you accused Pat of living in a simplistic world?

There is the possibility that he was living his life with no health issues, he got Covid, the effects of Covid caused strain on his body's systems and he died of the results of having Covid.

There is the possibility that he was living his life with chronic or acute health issues, he went to the hospital and was tested for Covid (the news reports state he was not admitted for Covid and was only tested after he went to the hospital), and he died of whatever chronic or acute health issues he had, while carrying Covid in his system.

Provide your evidence for either.  You don't know (in fact, none except his family does).  But you are certainly quick to jump to one.

I hope you are aware that COVID is a potential danger to your system no matter what.

I don't know this guy. I'm still sorry that he died, because I would never wish that to anyone. But if he had "chronic or acute health issues" he should have been extra-careful: adding COVID to them is not something I would want. The reason should be obvious.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on August 06, 2021, 01:02:01 PM
Quote
That's not what "theory" means.

I'm listening.
A theory is just a hypothesis. The ideal is it should be testable, but that's not always the case in practice (cf. string theory). They're distinguished from axioms, which are things that have to be assumed to be true, because they can't be proven.

The word theory doesn't imply anything about its validity. It covers all the wild hairbrained ideas, as well as widely accepted theories, like the theory of gravity. But regardless of how widely accepted it is, all theories are still subject to challenges, revisions, and even being overthrown. We saw this with gravity. Newton's formulation was amazingly accurate, but Einstein showed it was just a special case and provided a more general set of rules. And currently the problems with a quantum theory of gravity show there's still a big hole in the current understanding.

All the different proposals about the origin of the 1918 flu are theories. Calling some of them just theories and others something else isn't a valid distinction. They're all theories. It's the strength of the evidence in support of each of the different theories that matters. And as I've said several times, none of the theories are conclusive. We don't really know where the 1918 flu originated. Likely we'll never know, because sufficient information was not preserved.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Reckall on August 06, 2021, 01:32:35 PM
I'm not ever angry at our own government, because I understood that everyone was learning by trial. If anything, it was the fear of applying too draconian measures that allowed the pandemic to rage. Only when truly draconian measures were applied we were able to contain it.
Except that's false. The most dracocian measures haven't contained it.

Except that here they did. As I posted earlier, no one can cancel the death toll of the first wave in Italy  - but that death toll (along with the initial wave of cases) is exactly the yardstick that shows how, after the Italian government went against the virus with everything they had, the transmission index collapsed.
If everyone who could be infected was infected, the number of cases drops. The Italian government can't take credit for their failure.
You're wasting your breath.  Remember, this poster has high standards for sources, until he posts links to a local Jacksonville TV station to bash DeSantis (and we know TV news has no reason to bash DeSantis, now that he is becoming a political frontrunner).

I almost forgot about this one, because it's a small gem amid the general flapping.

I posted a source about DeSantis. I choose the one that gave the most info in the most synthetic manner, because this thread is already made by walls of text (who no one reads anyway before answering).

Do you want others? Because I have a ton.

But, even before that, do you have better sources that disprove what I posted? I'm listening. Hint "Shooting the messenger" is a fail. Now, please, you have the microphone. I'll sit right there.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 06, 2021, 01:46:15 PM
Oh dear, the "vaccines" don't actually do a thing for the Delta variant: https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-delta-infections-produce-similar-levels-of-virus-regardless-of-vaccination-status-suggests-early-analysis-12374244

Sly Views, but the fact that it's even being reported in the scum media says something. Almost as though the "vaccines" don't fucking work...
Did you read your own source, dumbass? Go past the headline and it outright says that the vaccinations are effective.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on August 06, 2021, 02:12:51 PM
Did you read your own source, dumbass? Go past the headline and it outright says that the vaccinations are effective.

I did, and it's the usual circular bullshit about how "this shows it's really working" and trying to brazen out the fact that they actually do nothing.

Assertions from scum like Sky News are meaningless.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 06, 2021, 02:15:26 PM
Did you read your own source, dumbass? Go past the headline and it outright says that the vaccinations are effective.

I did, and it's the usual circular bullshit about how "this shows it's really working" and trying to brazen out the fact that they actually do nothing.

Assertions from scum like Sky News are meaningless.
So you post sources that are bullshit. Got it.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: FelixGamingX1 on August 06, 2021, 03:06:09 PM
Did you read your own source, dumbass? Go past the headline and it outright says that the vaccinations are effective.

I did, and it's the usual circular bullshit about how "this shows it's really working" and trying to brazen out the fact that they actually do nothing.

Assertions from scum like Sky News are meaningless.

We might get to a point where you would almost pass for being right. The frequent mutations might eventually hinder the vaccine less effective and Moderna is already talking about a third booster by winter. But just to make it clear, your theories are always so far off it’s hard to think you ain’t trolling.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: GriswaldTerrastone on August 06, 2021, 03:11:54 PM
The vaccinations aren't even FDA approved, for crying out loud.

Nor is the COVID for what matters. Are you even aware of how an influenza virus works?


Given that I was a science major I know how the "scientific method" is supposed to work, better than most. The problem in society today is that "science" has become an insanely arrogant religion.

I first saw the commercial with former Presidents saying how safe and effective the vaccines were- a few months ago. During an episode of "American Greed" about a Pfizer pain killer that killed people and made their flesh fall off, which was covered up for as long as possible. One of the vaccines is from Pfizer. Great timing, aye?

So- how did they know it was "safe" and "effective?" They had only just recently appeared. Where were the long-term studies? The control groups? The taking of population density, poverty, demographics, age, etc. into account? ANY evidence that would not get you flunked out of first semester biology?

Did you know it is "effective?" All right, define "effective." They know people will assume that means what it used to with the polio and measles vaccines long ago: get it and you are protected. But now it means "treats lesser symptoms."

Given the standards for FDA approval, anyone with any sense had better worry if something does not have it.

I understand this better than you, clearly. AND- if a vaccine creates a false sense of security people will get careless, thus actually making the problem worse!

Fun Fact: Given the way this disease is supposed to spread the WHO is wrong about three feet, the CDC wrong about six feet- to get it right a bare minimum of TWENTY FEET social distancing is needed. Apparently the CDC admitted their figure came out of nowhere.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Reckall on August 06, 2021, 03:29:11 PM
We might get to a point where you would almost pass for being right. The frequent mutations might eventually hinder the vaccine less effective and Moderna is already talking about a third booster by winter.

It is already starting. My dentist already booked her third shot via the Dentists Association. It will be either in October or November, but it is a done thing.

All this talk of "it is possible that maybe there could be the necessity..." only means "there will be a third shot". They are only preparing the terrain.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: GeekyBugle on August 06, 2021, 03:44:46 PM
Quote
That's not what "theory" means.

I'm listening.
A theory is just a hypothesis. The ideal is it should be testable, but that's not always the case in practice (cf. string theory). They're distinguished from axioms, which are things that have to be assumed to be true, because they can't be proven.

The word theory doesn't imply anything about its validity. It covers all the wild hairbrained ideas, as well as widely accepted theories, like the theory of gravity. But regardless of how widely accepted it is, all theories are still subject to challenges, revisions, and even being overthrown. We saw this with gravity. Newton's formulation was amazingly accurate, but Einstein showed it was just a special case and provided a more general set of rules. And currently the problems with a quantum theory of gravity show there's still a big hole in the current understanding.

All the different proposals about the origin of the 1918 flu are theories. Calling some of them just theories and others something else isn't a valid distinction. They're all theories. It's the strength of the evidence in support of each of the different theories that matters. And as I've said several times, none of the theories are conclusive. We don't really know where the 1918 flu originated. Likely we'll never know, because sufficient information was not preserved.

Sorry Pat but no, I do agree that the "theory" about the spanish flu origin is just a hypothesis, but a Theory isn't something you can test, it's the explanation of all those tests you already did:

The Theory of Gravity, just explains why the laws work, after we know they work, and makes predictions, that IF proven wrong would send the Theory back to the drawing board.

For example Evolution and punctuated equilibrium, rapid evolution. Before it was thought evolution ALWAYS took millions of years, when it was proven this wasn't the case then rapid evolution + punctuated equilibrium were postulated and added to the Theory.

Mind you, it wasn't proven that evolution doesn't happen or that the general laws aren't true, just a small part of the Theory needed to be ammended to account for the new discoveries.

And those new discoveries didn't contradict the core laws of the Theory.

T.L;D.R : Hypothesis > Tests (if proven correct then) > Law > Theory

Or put in math terms: Theory > Law > Hypothesis
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: moonsweeper on August 06, 2021, 03:46:36 PM
Since I am guessing you do not know much about employment in the US and OSHA, You probably do not know about the 'general duty clause' for OSHA.

First of all, I'm glad to get an answer based on a quote I had to pull out - if you get my meaning :D

Since you posted the link in response to someone that wasn't me I have no idea what you mean? ???
I was simply trying to clarify exactly one particular point for you...

That the Covid jabs were being treated in a manner that was contradictory to the regulations and that OSHA was specifically informing employers of that alteration of the standard regulations...

I did not bring mask mandates or 'freedom' or anything else into the conversation. 
I don't remember mentioning 'Bill Gates' or the 'Deep State' in the discussion.

What I pointed out was that the government agency in charge of health and safety in the workplace in the US did away with one of its basic standard requirements at a time when that particular requirement would be very useful for record keeping purposes.

I was attempting to do it in a polite manner since I made the assumption that you (Italian) might not be aware of some of the OSHA (US) background requirements and why this raises concerns.


Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: GeekyBugle on August 06, 2021, 03:48:56 PM
We might get to a point where you would almost pass for being right. The frequent mutations might eventually hinder the vaccine less effective and Moderna is already talking about a third booster by winter.

It is already starting. My dentist already booked her third shot via the Dentists Association. It will be either in October or November, but it is a done thing.

All this talk of "it is possible that maybe there could be the necessity..." only means "there will be a third shot". They are only preparing the terrain.

And a 4th, 5th, 6th until they say a whole new vaccine is needed for the variant Epsilon Gama Tango and start again.

All talk about herd immunity will be squashed, all talk of conventional drugs (especially if out of patent) being used will be squashed, all your liberties will be stolen on the say so of unaccountable unelected fucks that have been proven wrong several times already or have been proven lying to cover up for China/WHO/Fauci.

Welcome to the new normal, you'll own nothing and be happy.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: FelixGamingX1 on August 06, 2021, 03:58:04 PM

Welcome to the new normal, you'll own nothing and be happy.

Scary times we live in indeed. Frightening, to say the least.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on August 06, 2021, 04:15:01 PM
T.L;D.R : Hypothesis > Tests (if proven correct then) > Law > Theory

Or put in math terms: Theory > Law > Hypothesis
1 > 0
0 < 1
Can't both be correct.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Reckall on August 06, 2021, 04:19:07 PM
Quote
Since I am guessing you do not know much about employment in the US and OSHA, You probably do not know about the 'general duty clause' for OSHA.

First of all, I'm glad to get an answer based on a quote I had to pull out - if you get my meaning :D

Since you posted the link in response to someone that wasn't me I have no idea what you mean? ???

I think that there is a misunderstanding here. I was simply happy that finally an answer was based on a quote with a reference. I only sighed because the original reference was wrong and, even in this welcome case, it was me who actually had to do another guy's job. I was not talking about you. :)

Quote
I was simply trying to clarify exactly one particular point for you...

Yes, I understood that. And I didn't say that you mentioned masks =/= freedom or such. I said that. From my vantage point outside the USA I'm noticing that some topics, from masks to vaccines, are, for the lack of a better word, "hot", while, for examples, mandatory helmets in a building site aren't.

So, I pushed forward the idea that maybe OSHA is using that language in an unprecedented situation to avoid any kind of potentially bad confrontation - while still keeping open the door for people to report vaccines' side effects. I think I underlined enough that this hypothesis is IMHO, and that you are better informed than me to judge if it is feasible.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Shasarak on August 06, 2021, 05:21:19 PM
I see the current death rate for the Wuhan Covid

...And then there is this.

Do you know from where the so-called "Spanish Flu" actually came from?

"Epidemiological evidence suggests that a new influenza virus originated in Haskell County, Kansas, early in 1918. Evidence further suggests that this virus traveled east across the state to a huge army base, and from there to Europe. Later it began its sweep through North America, through Europe, through South America, through Asia and Africa, through isolated islands in the Pacific, through all the wide world."

John M. Barry - The Great Influenza


So, when is Haskell County, Kansas, USA, going to fix the name of the disease? ("The Kansas Flu")?

Not sure what this has to do with the Wuhan virus?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Reckall on August 06, 2021, 05:52:39 PM
I see the current death rate for the Wuhan Covid

...And then there is this.

Do you know from where the so-called "Spanish Flu" actually came from?

"Epidemiological evidence suggests that a new influenza virus originated in Haskell County, Kansas, early in 1918. Evidence further suggests that this virus traveled east across the state to a huge army base, and from there to Europe. Later it began its sweep through North America, through Europe, through South America, through Asia and Africa, through isolated islands in the Pacific, through all the wide world."

John M. Barry - The Great Influenza


So, when is Haskell County, Kansas, USA, going to fix the name of the disease? ("The Kansas Flu")?

Not sure what this has to do with the Wuhan virus?

Apart from giving to the virus the name of the place of origin?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Reckall on August 06, 2021, 06:18:34 PM
So, I finally read this article:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6381288/

It makes a compelling case for this conclusion:

Although the even earlier cases noted in France and the UK are compelling, we contend that early documentation of plausible cases is highly unlikely to indicate geographic origin. In other words, even if there were early cases in France and the UK in 1916 and 1917, this still would not necessarily indicate that the pandemic virus first arose in Western Europe. To our knowledge, the only reasonably persuasive evidence we have of geographical origin, which is by no means conclusive, comes from phylogenetic analyses indicating that most of the avian-like genomic segments in the 1918 human virus appear to be of Western Hemisphere and, probably, North American origin [19] and that the pandemic virus’s HA gene was likely circulating in the human population for many years prior to 1918.

[...]

"Therefore, we should remain cautious in the face of incomplete knowledge. In a nutshell, the chance that a very precise epicentre of the pandemic was captured and publicly documented in real time by front-line observers, whether in Kansas, Etaples, China or wherever, must be close to zero."

This coincides with what Barry writes in a 2009 Appendix to his 2005 research that, admittedly, I hadn't read before:

"In fact, some investigators now speculate that the 1918 virus circulated in humans for several years before mutations allowed it to spread easily. If true, this would of course explode the hypothesis that Haskell was the origin. The 1889 pandemic virus did follow this pattern, generating two and a half years of sporadic outbreaks around the world, including in such large cities as London, Berlin, and Paris, before becoming fully pandemic, blanketing the world in the winter of 1891–92."


But Barry adds an observation strangely absent from the other study:

"Exposure to the (mild) first wave (intended as "coming from Haskell") still provided as high as 94 percent protection against the (horrifying) second wave (of Spanish Flu), far better protection than the best modern vaccine affords, and that’s just one piece of the evidence that the same virus (coming from Haskell) caused both the initial waves.

But we already saw how the more modern study, for all its in-depthness, already strangely lacks other data, like the meticulous contact tracing done by Barry, from Haskell County to Funston, and from Funston to other Army Camps. One would expect that the dismantling of the Haskell hypothesis would start there, but this part of Barry's work is not even mentioned. Make of that what you wish.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Shasarak on August 06, 2021, 06:46:53 PM
I see the current death rate for the Wuhan Covid

...And then there is this.

Do you know from where the so-called "Spanish Flu" actually came from?

"Epidemiological evidence suggests that a new influenza virus originated in Haskell County, Kansas, early in 1918. Evidence further suggests that this virus traveled east across the state to a huge army base, and from there to Europe. Later it began its sweep through North America, through Europe, through South America, through Asia and Africa, through isolated islands in the Pacific, through all the wide world."

John M. Barry - The Great Influenza


So, when is Haskell County, Kansas, USA, going to fix the name of the disease? ("The Kansas Flu")?

Not sure what this has to do with the Wuhan virus?

Apart from giving to the virus the name of the place of origin?

If the Spanish Flu came from Kansas then it would be the Kansas Flu.  That has nothing to do with the Wuhan Chinese Flu.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Reckall on August 06, 2021, 07:26:37 PM
I see the current death rate for the Wuhan Covid

...And then there is this.

Do you know from where the so-called "Spanish Flu" actually came from?

"Epidemiological evidence suggests that a new influenza virus originated in Haskell County, Kansas, early in 1918. Evidence further suggests that this virus traveled east across the state to a huge army base, and from there to Europe. Later it began its sweep through North America, through Europe, through South America, through Asia and Africa, through isolated islands in the Pacific, through all the wide world."

John M. Barry - The Great Influenza


So, when is Haskell County, Kansas, USA, going to fix the name of the disease? ("The Kansas Flu")?

Not sure what this has to do with the Wuhan virus?

Apart from giving to the virus the name of the place of origin?

If the Spanish Flu came from Kansas then it would be the Kansas Flu.  That has nothing to do with the Wuhan Chinese Flu.

So, the Spanish Flu came from Spain? Just askin'.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on August 06, 2021, 07:33:00 PM
So you post sources that are bullshit. Got it.

I was showing that even the cunts in the mainstream media like Sky are admitting the vaccines don't really do anything.

We might get to a point where you would almost pass for being right. The frequent mutations might eventually hinder the vaccine less effective and Moderna is already talking about a third booster by winter. But just to make it clear, your theories are always so far off it’s hard to think you ain’t trolling.

The vaccines are causing the mutations. Don't you get it? Evolutionary pressure which causes mutation along a specific vector, ie to overcome the rather weak and selective "immunity" the jabs give.

The manufacturers are engaged in a futile and self-defeating race against the ability of the virus to mutate. Not a coincidence that a recent Israeli study found those who've been infected and recovered have a much stronger immune response and better outcomes than people who've only been jabbed. And that resistance applies to the mutated variants that are overcoming the vaccines, too.

Boosters aren't going to do fuck all, because the jabs never worked in the first place. All they did was trick the immune system into not reacting to spike proteins. The "vaccinated" are still getting infected, still carrying the same viral load as anyone unvaccinated, and are possibly more susceptible to future infection through antibody dependent enhancement. If you've been jabbed, your immune system is now fucked, good luck in the autumn.

Shame they didn't actually test these things before jabbing millions of people with them.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: SHARK on August 06, 2021, 08:36:52 PM
Greetings!

Here is an article discussing how more and more companies are requiring that employees get vaccinated--and provide proof of such vaccination. In addition, many people are expecting and requiring that family members or friends also get vaccinated--or become socially ostracized and not allowed to participate in normal gatherings and activities.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/the-unvaccinated-are-losing-jobs-and-friends/ar-AAN1aE6?ocid=spartanntp

So, as the current vaccine fails, and of course, new mutations develop, more vaccinations will be required. Again, and again, and again. Pumping yourself with experimental drugs with unknown side-effects--so that all of these cock-sucking cowards and tyrants can "feel safe". Unvaccinated people are supposed to just bow down and get pumped with this bullshit, just to suck the sheep's fucking ass. Risking their own life and condition with all kinds of crazy effects, and if such does occur, the mindless fucking cunts just gibber, "So sorry!"

Fuck these tyrants and cock-sucking cowards.

I hope that the resistance continues to grow. All of the tyrants need to be bathed in fucking napalm.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 06, 2021, 08:39:49 PM
So you post sources that are bullshit. Got it.

I was showing that even the cunts in the mainstream media like Sky are admitting the vaccines don't really do anything.

We might get to a point where you would almost pass for being right. The frequent mutations might eventually hinder the vaccine less effective and Moderna is already talking about a third booster by winter. But just to make it clear, your theories are always so far off it’s hard to think you ain’t trolling.

The vaccines are causing the mutations. Don't you get it? Evolutionary pressure which causes mutation along a specific vector, ie to overcome the rather weak and selective "immunity" the jabs give.

The manufacturers are engaged in a futile and self-defeating race against the ability of the virus to mutate. Not a coincidence that a recent Israeli study found those who've been infected and recovered have a much stronger immune response and better outcomes than people who've only been jabbed. And that resistance applies to the mutated variants that are overcoming the vaccines, too.

Boosters aren't going to do fuck all, because the jabs never worked in the first place. All they did was trick the immune system into not reacting to spike proteins. The "vaccinated" are still getting infected, still carrying the same viral load as anyone unvaccinated, and are possibly more susceptible to future infection through antibody dependent enhancement. If you've been jabbed, your immune system is now fucked, good luck in the autumn.

Shame they didn't actually test these things before jabbing millions of people with them.
You actually believe that nonsense? Keep eating the anti-vaxxer cookies dumbass, but puking up the misinformation is wrong...and cowardly.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 06, 2021, 08:41:27 PM
Greetings!

Here is an article discussing how more and more companies are requiring that employees get vaccinated--and provide proof of such vaccination. In addition, many people are expecting and requiring that family members or friends also get vaccinated--or become socially ostracized and not allowed to participate in normal gatherings and activities.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/the-unvaccinated-are-losing-jobs-and-friends/ar-AAN1aE6?ocid=spartanntp

So, as the current vaccine fails, and of course, new mutations develop, more vaccinations will be required. Again, and again, and again. Pumping yourself with experimental drugs with unknown side-effects--so that all of these cock-sucking cowards and tyrants can "feel safe". Unvaccinated people are supposed to just bow down and get pumped with this bullshit, just to suck the sheep's fucking ass. Risking their own life and condition with all kinds of crazy effects, and if such does occur, the mindless fucking cunts just gibber, "So sorry!"

Fuck these tyrants and cock-sucking cowards.

I hope that the resistance continues to grow. All of the tyrants need to be bathed in fucking napalm.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Tough talk, but c'mon...What ya gonna do, bitch?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on August 06, 2021, 09:01:36 PM
Biden announced today that 350 million Americans have been vaccinated, meaning more than 100% of Americans have taken the jab.
https://news.yahoo.com/joe-biden-says-350-million-171101167.html
Since there's no longer any reason for a vaccine passport, I assume they'll institute a universal health passport instead, where people get access to different services based on their health needs. For instance, the obese may be barred from McDonald's, gymrats who post annoying selfies on social media may be barred from the gym, and the elderly may qualify for "Cuomos" aka expedited euthanasia plans. All hail our glorious leader!
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: FelixGamingX1 on August 06, 2021, 10:21:36 PM
Biden announced today that 350 million Americans have been vaccinated, meaning more than 100% of Americans have taken the jab.
https://news.yahoo.com/joe-biden-says-350-million-171101167.html
Since there's no longer any reason for a vaccine passport, I assume they'll institute a universal health passport instead, where people get access to different services based on their health needs. For instance, the obese may be barred from McDonald's, gymrats who post annoying selfies on social media may be barred from the gym, and the elderly may qualify for "Cuomos" aka expedited euthanasia plans. All hail our glorious leader!

Numbers that quite frankly don’t feel accurate. I think they should revise both vaccinated and July’s job numbers. The mall still empty, stores are closing. I still don’t see people sitting in restaurants, other than a typical weekend night. I believe what my eyes tells me, and it’s not looking any better than few months ago. And now this could be the final nail in the coffin for small businesses.



Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Shasarak on August 06, 2021, 10:50:06 PM
So, the Spanish Flu came from Spain? Just askin'.

Its called the Spanish Flu because the Spanish were the only ones talking about it, so therefore "Spanish" Flu
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Reckall on August 07, 2021, 02:15:48 AM
Biden announced today that 350 million Americans have been vaccinated, meaning more than 100% of Americans have taken the jab.
https://news.yahoo.com/joe-biden-says-350-million-171101167.html

That's 20 millions more than the Americans currently alive 😂 I guess that Biden messed up as usual and was talking about the shots given in the US. The number of fully vaccinated Americans is about 50%.

Quote
Since there's no longer any reason for a vaccine passport, I assume they'll institute a universal health passport instead, where people get access to different services based on their health needs. For instance, the obese may be barred from McDonald's, gymrats who post annoying selfies on social media may be barred from the gym, and the elderly may qualify for "Cuomos" aka expedited euthanasia plans.

I would dig the restrictions applied to gym rats.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Reckall on August 07, 2021, 02:25:09 AM
So, the Spanish Flu came from Spain? Just askin'.

Its called the Spanish Flu because the Spanish were the only ones talking about it, so therefore "Spanish" Flu

Exactly. As neutral they weren't subjected to war censorship and so they were the first to talk about it - especially after their King Alphonse XIII got sick and almost died.

So, since we obsess with precise geographic terms like "Wuhan Flu" or "Kung Flu" it is only fair towards Spain to rename the 1918-1919 pandemic "Kansas Flu" or "AmeriFlu". I'm confident that other posters will see the justice and appropriateness of fixing this historical misunderstanding.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on August 07, 2021, 02:46:21 AM
So, since we obsess with precise geographic terms like "Wuhan Flu" or "Kung Flu" it is only fair towards Spain to rename the 1918-1919 pandemic "Kansas Flu" or "AmeriFlu". I'm confident that other posters will see the justice and appropriateness of fixing this historical misunderstanding.
Except the Haskell origin has been debunked. Might as well name it the Bergamo Flu.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Reckall on August 07, 2021, 03:37:37 AM
So, since we obsess with precise geographic terms like "Wuhan Flu" or "Kung Flu" it is only fair towards Spain to rename the 1918-1919 pandemic "Kansas Flu" or "AmeriFlu". I'm confident that other posters will see the justice and appropriateness of fixing this historical misunderstanding.
Except the Haskell origin has been debunked.

Actually it hasn't. Re-read what was posted here...

No, sorry, let me rephrase that: read what was posted here.

Quote
Might as well name it the Bergamo Flu.

I see that there is some confusion and crossed wires in your head regarding the discourse about two different pandemics one century apart from each other. Unsurprisingly 😂
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on August 07, 2021, 03:43:11 AM
Sorry, it has been debunked. Try to avoid those Breitbart conspiracy theories you love so much.

The equivalence of Kansas and Bergamo should have been obvious from context, but grasping that's obviously not a strength of yours.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Reckall on August 07, 2021, 05:40:50 AM
Sorry, it has been debunked. Try to avoid those Breitbart conspiracy theories you love so much.

Beside missing why it is still the most probable origin, due to strange omissions in the "debunking study"... At which point you also missed "Please, just don't quote me Breitbart News"? For Go*sake, at least try to read a thread.

Quote
The equivalence of Kansas and Bergamo should have been obvious from context,

Context being "Bergamo, 2020, via Wuhan" vs. "Kansas, 1919, via maybe New York City"? The very study you quoted, and which I actually read for you, says that, at the end, the 1918 flu very possibly had origins in North America (I posted the very abstract, but, amen to that) - making it "The Ameriflu of 1918" , if you really want to use idiotic terms like "The Wuhan Flu of 2019".

Quote
but grasping that's obviously not a strength of yours.

Nor reading what is actually posted before answering is a strength of yours. No one is perfect.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on August 07, 2021, 06:43:18 AM
You actually believe that nonsense? Keep eating the anti-vaxxer cookies dumbass, but puking up the misinformation is wrong...and cowardly.

Good luck with all your sick "fully vaccinated" patients a few weeks from now. You're going to need it.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on August 07, 2021, 08:49:11 AM
Sorry, it has been debunked. Try to avoid those Breitbart conspiracy theories you love so much.

Beside missing why it is still the most probable origin, due to strange omissions in the "debunking study"... At which point you also missed "Please, just don't quote me Breitbart News"? For Go*sake, at least try to read a thread.

Quote
The equivalence of Kansas and Bergamo should have been obvious from context,

Context being "Bergamo, 2020, via Wuhan" vs. "Kansas, 1919, via maybe New York City"? The very study you quoted, and which I actually read for you, says that, at the end, the 1918 flu very possibly had origins in North America (I posted the very abstract, but, amen to that) - making it "The Ameriflu of 1918" , if you really want to use idiotic terms like "The Wuhan Flu of 2019".

Quote
but grasping that's obviously not a strength of yours.

Nor reading what is actually posted before answering is a strength of yours. No one is perfect.
I know you're a fan of Brietbart, but could you stop bringing them up in every post? Kthxbye.

And what's this Bergamo 2020 nonsense? That's more than a 100 years off. I was providing an equally valid alternate name for the 1918 flu, which you repeatedly and erroneously referred to as the Kansas flu. If you read for context, you'd know that. My satire wasn't very subtle, so even someone like you who is almost totally blind to context should be able to grasp it.

Also, you must have missed where I said the Bergamo flu could have had a general North American origin, before you did. If you read what I actually posted, you'd have known that.

Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 07, 2021, 08:50:40 AM
You actually believe that nonsense? Keep eating the anti-vaxxer cookies dumbass, but puking up the misinformation is wrong...and cowardly.

Good luck with all your sick "fully vaccinated" patients a few weeks from now. You're going to need it.
Let's see if you're as bad at predicting the future as your Pillow Prophet.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: dkabq on August 07, 2021, 09:18:03 AM
I've personally seen scores relatively healthy (damn near nobody is "perfectly healthy") individuals in their 30s and 40s with severe Covid-related symptoms in the last few months. I have directly witnessed a few of them die from it. The same is true for everyone else I work alongside.

I see the current death rate for the Wuhan Covid for ages 30 to 39 range from 0.1% to 0.3%, so if we use an average of 0.2% times the population of Florida (2.6 million aged 30 to 39) equals 5 200 people.

So if you work in healthcare in Florida then yes I would expect you to see "a few" die from the Wuhan Covid.

The data as of 2021-06-02 for Florida is
http://ww11.doh.state.fl.us/comm/_partners/covid19_report_archive/cases-monitoring-and-pui-information/county-report/county_reports_latest.pdf
(bottom of page 1)
I recalculated the % of total so that I could display a sufficient number of sig figs to avoid non-zero # of deaths having a zero % of total. I also added ascending and descending cumulative % totals.

The number of deaths over the age cohort of 25 to 44 is 221 +609 = 830. The % of total is 0.65 +1.65 = 2.3%.

As a comparison, the deaths from motor vehicle crashes for that age cohort is roughly the same (988 in 2019, 903 average over 2000-19, 963 median value over 2000-19). And interestingly enough, the deaths from motor vehicle crashes for the 0-4 yr age cohort in 2019 (31) are roughly an order of magnitude higher.
http://www.flhealthcharts.com/ChartsReports/rdPage.aspx?rdReport=Death.Dataviewer

                                                      cumulative % totals (by age)
age             # deaths    % of total     (ascending)  (descending)
0-4 years           2               0.01       100.00            0.01
5-14 years         5               0.01         99.99            0.02
15-24 years      56              0.15         99.98            0.17
25-34 years     221             0.60         99.83            0.77
35-44 years     609             1.65         99.23            2.42
45-54 years   1,518            4.11         97.58            6.52
55-64 years   4,190          11.33         93.48          17.85
65-74 years   7,936          21.46         82.15          39.32
75-84 years   11,130        30.10         60.68          69.42
85+ years      11,306        30.58        30.58         100.00



Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Eirikrautha on August 07, 2021, 12:44:04 PM
The idea that anyone can compare the Spanish Flu, where the technology of the time and the passage of time makes any effort to trace the origin speculative at best, to the Wuhan Flu, where the outbreak occurred in the same city where a level 4 lab with a history of lax security and contracts for enhancing coronaviruses is situated, is ludicrous.  Even if Covid 19 wasn't a lab leak, the next prevailing theories are the virus jumping from a bat or pangolin in the Wuhan wet-markets or the natural jumping occurring from bats in the region.  So all theories (except the Chinese's propaganda one) have this virus originating in China near Wuhan.  At best, if you accept the lab leak hypothesis, you could call this the "Fauci virus," since the NIAID paid for the gain-of-function research that might have spawned it (which we now how pretty clear evidence for, since the NIH scrubbed the public databases of the contracts soon after Rand Paul pointed them out.  Why do that unless they make you look guilty?).  If you object to Wu-Flu, I'll accept Fauci-Flu as an alternative.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 07, 2021, 12:46:54 PM
I was reading that employees fired for noncompliance with their employer's vaccine requirements will not be eligible for unemployment benefits. This falls under a willful act that leads to separation. I think this will likely become the true form of pressure on the unvaccinated rather than the hyperbole of people being imprisoned for not taking the vaccine.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 07, 2021, 12:48:21 PM
The idea that anyone can compare the Spanish Flu, where the technology of the time and the passage of time makes any effort to trace the origin speculative at best, to the Wuhan Flu, where the outbreak occurred in the same city where a level 4 lab with a history of lax security and contracts for enhancing coronaviruses is situated, is ludicrous.  Even if Covid 19 wasn't a lab leak, the next prevailing theories are the virus jumping from a bat or pangolin in the Wuhan wet-markets or the natural jumping occurring from bats in the region.  So all theories (except the Chinese's propaganda one) have this virus originating in China near Wuhan.  At best, if you accept the lab leak hypothesis, you could call this the "Fauci virus," since the NIAID paid for the gain-of-function research that might have spawned it (which we now how pretty clear evidence for, since the NIH scrubbed the public databases of the contracts soon after Rand Paul pointed them out.  Why do that unless they make you look guilty?).  If you object to Wu-Flu, I'll accept Fauci-Flu as an alternative.
Because calling it Covid or Covid-19 is too hard for you?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on August 07, 2021, 01:09:43 PM
I think this will likely become the true form of pressure on the unvaccinated rather than the hyperbole of people being imprisoned for not taking the vaccine.
....Because thats so much better? If the less hyperbolic version of a kick to the dick is a punch to the face-thats not very significant in terms of public appeal.

With how flaky the situation is (with the mutating virus, lax testing, and the general weak effectiveness of the vaccine even taking it at face value) what is so unethical, or evil, or stupid about being aprehensive about taking it? Again, there is also a noted psychological effect where if you try to FORCE the undecided, they become resentful and uncompliant.

And Im vaccinated.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Reckall on August 07, 2021, 01:18:16 PM
Again, there is also a noted psychological effect where if you try to FORCE the undecided, they become resentful and uncompliant.

That exactly the reason why I think that OSHA didn't made mandatory to report vaccines' side effects while leaving the door open to freely do it, BTW.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Eirikrautha on August 07, 2021, 02:18:37 PM
The idea that anyone can compare the Spanish Flu, where the technology of the time and the passage of time makes any effort to trace the origin speculative at best, to the Wuhan Flu, where the outbreak occurred in the same city where a level 4 lab with a history of lax security and contracts for enhancing coronaviruses is situated, is ludicrous.  Even if Covid 19 wasn't a lab leak, the next prevailing theories are the virus jumping from a bat or pangolin in the Wuhan wet-markets or the natural jumping occurring from bats in the region.  So all theories (except the Chinese's propaganda one) have this virus originating in China near Wuhan.  At best, if you accept the lab leak hypothesis, you could call this the "Fauci virus," since the NIAID paid for the gain-of-function research that might have spawned it (which we now how pretty clear evidence for, since the NIH scrubbed the public databases of the contracts soon after Rand Paul pointed them out.  Why do that unless they make you look guilty?).  If you object to Wu-Flu, I'll accept Fauci-Flu as an alternative.
Because calling it Covid or Covid-19 is too hard for you?
I believe in giving credit where credit is due.  There's a decent chance that China's bio research, funded by the US's NIH, caused the greatest pandemic of the 21st century so far.  Shouldn't they get the credit for it?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 07, 2021, 03:13:43 PM
I think this will likely become the true form of pressure on the unvaccinated rather than the hyperbole of people being imprisoned for not taking the vaccine.
....Because thats so much better? If the less hyperbolic version of a kick to the dick is a punch to the face-thats not very significant in terms of public appeal.

With how flaky the situation is (with the mutating virus, lax testing, and the general weak effectiveness of the vaccine even taking it at face value) what is so unethical, or evil, or stupid about being aprehensive about taking it? Again, there is also a noted psychological effect where if you try to FORCE the undecided, they become resentful and uncompliant.

And Im vaccinated.
I think it's "better" to discuss the likely reality rather than the fevered imaginary outcomes of the crazy conspiracy theorists.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: FelixGamingX1 on August 07, 2021, 03:53:50 PM
I think it's "better" to discuss the likely reality rather than the fevered imaginary outcomes of the crazy conspiracy theorists.

Right, Everyone will have to take the vaccine, period. For those scared of the second needle, just get it over with because the third and subsequent ones are looking real promising. Positive side of things, at least you have a certain degree of protection.
Still, better than being outcasted and forbidden to virtually enter anywhere but a vax clinic. They don’t sell groceries there!
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on August 07, 2021, 04:05:30 PM
I think it's "better" to discuss the likely reality rather than the fevered imaginary outcomes of the crazy conspiracy theorists.
The reality that the methods are slightly less draconian then envisioned?
If the vaccine doesn’t make you less of a carrier, why does it bother you that others could be more naturally cautious of the injections?

Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 07, 2021, 04:51:59 PM
I think it's "better" to discuss the likely reality rather than the fevered imaginary outcomes of the crazy conspiracy theorists.
The reality that the methods are slightly less draconian then envisioned?
If the vaccine doesn’t make you less of a carrier, why does it bother you that others could be more naturally cautious of the injections?
Those are two different points. I was addressing the first one (better to discuss what is likely to happen than the exaggerated imagining). Do you want to let that rest and shift to the second instead? If so, note that I'm not the one that said it "bothered" me for the reasons that you state.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: SonTodoGato on August 07, 2021, 05:23:19 PM
It's not "imprison". It starts slowly; first, social shaming. Then, you can't go out to mass events. Then restaurants and cinemas. Then who knows...

It's a war of attrition, they expect you to give in without having to shoot a single bullet, all with the consent of society and out in the open. If the vaccine were so necessary, then we would see that the countries with the lowest vaccination rates and most lenient quarantines are suffering the most yet this isn't what happened (Poland, Russia, states like Florida, Texas, Uruguay, Slovenia, etc.). And this leaky vaccine can end up causing new, vaccine-resistant strains, apart from the side effects which are confirmed to accompany it. That's why Gibraltar is a no-go zone in spite of having a 100% vaccinated population.

You're an idiot if you still think this is about public health, your safety or a fucking virus. Especially if its promoted by the same people who were concerned about overpopulation...

A couple of years ago, Bill Gates (one of the main funders of the UN) proposed the ID2020 initiative as part of the UN's Agenda 2030 for sustainable development; a digital, worldwide ID. He participated in the Event 201; a simulation along with the WEF to see how a coronavirus from Wuhan would spread. And along came a virus that required "resetting capitalism" and international vaccine passports. This is about an international social credit system. You'll own nothing and you'll be happy by 2030
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on August 07, 2021, 05:26:05 PM
Those are two different points. I was addressing the first one (better to discuss what is likely to happen than the exaggerated imagining). Do you want to let that rest and shift to the second instead? If so, note that I'm not the one that said it "bothered" me for the reasons that you state.

The point about 'We aren't LITERALLY jailing you' sounds allot like the SJW points about free speech; not literally making it illegal to disagree with them, but still very much going against the spirit of the idea and making it difficult to express your opinion in every literal other way, to bypass the law in a way (social control can actually be more effective then laws in a way). Its also not hard to imagine to be the next step after this. Temporary jailing before the vaccine is injected by force. If you fundementally disagree with the autonomy of people, then the last step is a logical end point.

And maybe it doesn't bother you, but you sure act that way. Irritated by people who even disagree, or find things suspect.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Zelen on August 07, 2021, 05:27:26 PM
Moving away from the discussion about Spanish Flu...



Masks? World Health Organization 2019 Influenza Pandemic Playbook:

(https://i.imgur.com/zJtoqPy.jpg)
Couple of newer studies demonstrating that Covid is primarily transmitted through aerosols less than 5 microns in size.
I don't have a quick text link but notably former Biden health advisor Dr. Michael Osterhelm is now breaking ranks and admitting that cloth & surgical masks are useless at stopping spread of Covid.

Quote from: Clare Craig, MD. Pathologist
Aerosols that small are equivalent to smoke particles. They can travel miles and they make masks pointless.

(https://i.imgur.com/dMZlw0d.png)


How many times can "Public Health Officials" lie and people still believe them? First about Covid origins, then about efficacy of masks & lockdowns, now about efficacy of vaccines. Is there anything they haven't directly and demonstrably lied about?


Eliminating Covid is impossible at this stage. Measures like Lockdowns cause more harm without meaningfully stopping spread of aerosols that are in the atmosphere:

Quote
In the first 4 months of 2021, Australia’s all-cause mortality was up 5.6%. Cancer deaths up by 8.9% thanks to inadequate treatment over lockdown. Dementia is up 18.9% thanks to social isolation. 0 covid deaths. Covid zero is a failed policy that is killing Australians


The vaccines that are being pushed on people are not sterilizing vaccines. Infection and transmission continues regardless of vaccination status. In circumstances where vaccine-provoked immune response is insufficient, this can drive greater disease virulence1 (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15757475/), 2 (https://www.pbs.org/newshour/science/tthis-chicken-vaccine-makes-virus-dangerous).

Quote from: Robert Malone, MD
Continuing to push universal vaccination is reasonably likely to drive development of a "supervirus" variant that will be completely resistant to spike antigen-driven vaccine immune responses.  Universal vaccination- bad policy based on naive understanding of viral evolution.

Quote from: Luc Montagnier, MD PhD, Nobel Laureate 2008
We’re in unknown territory and proclaim mandatory vaccines for everyone. It’s insanity. It’s vaccination insanity that I absolutely condemn. ...  [variants] are a production and result from the vaccination.

Evolutionary Biologists Bret Weinstein & Heather Heyer talk about Natural vs. Vaccine Immunity:
https://odysee.com/@DarkHorsePodcastClips:b/Natural-Vs-Vaccine-immunity:4
 (https://odysee.com/@DarkHorsePodcastClips:b/Natural-Vs-Vaccine-immunity:4)

But there's good news. Most of the population has already been infected and has acquired immunity. Did you get vaccinated? Great. You have some protection. Did you get infected? Even better.

Israel National News (https://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/309762)
Quote from: IsraelNationalNews
By contrast, Israelis who were vaccinated were 6.72 times more likely to get infected after the shot than after natural infection, with over 3,000 of the 5,193,499, or 0.0578%, of Israelis who were vaccinated getting infected in the latest wave.

Even if we could eliminate Covid in human populations, Covid will remain a persistent environmental pathogen.

Quote
Between January and March 2021, the U.S. Department of Agriculture tested 385 white-tailed deer found throughout the states of Michigan, Illinois, New York and Pennsylvania, where they detected antibodies for SARS-CoV-2 in 40% of the population, both National Geographic and Nature reported on Monday. An additional three samples from January 2020 also showed antibodies.

How many mammalian species on the planet are now viral reservoirs? Are we going to try hunting down every last animal on the planet to vaccinate them too? Worrying about possible RNA transcription events that are occuring millions of times in every living every second is pointless and self-defeating.

So what can we do?

(https://i.imgur.com/fENLYoW.png)
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 07, 2021, 05:39:26 PM
Those are two different points. I was addressing the first one (better to discuss what is likely to happen than the exaggerated imagining). Do you want to let that rest and shift to the second instead? If so, note that I'm not the one that said it "bothered" me for the reasons that you state.

The point about 'We aren't LITERALLY jailing you' sounds allot like the SJW points about free speech; not literally making it illegal to disagree with them, but still very much going against the spirit of the idea and making it difficult to express your opinion in every literal other way, to bypass the law in a way (social control can actually be more effective then laws in a way). Its also not hard to imagine to be the next step after this. Temporary jailing before the vaccine is injected by force. If you fundementally disagree with the autonomy of people, then the last step is a logical end point.

And maybe it doesn't bother you, but you sure act that way. Irritated by people who even disagree, or find things suspect.
Ok, you want to stick to the nonsense over the reality. Carry on, but I'll just go back to making fun of you. It's OK, I view it as a win.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on August 07, 2021, 05:53:49 PM
It's OK, I view it as a win.
.....I figured this was about a 'win' for you, as opposed to a discussion of an issue thats affecting people you theoretically care about.
In that case you get 100 points and the Super Platinum trophy. Enjoy.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 07, 2021, 06:05:32 PM
It's OK, I view it as a win.
.....I figured this was about a 'win' for you, as opposed to a discussion of an issue thats affecting people you theoretically care about.
In that case you get 100 points and the Super Platinum trophy. Enjoy.
Get back to a discussion on the reality of the issue then.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on August 07, 2021, 06:10:50 PM
Get back to a discussion on the reality of the issue then.
Nah, Im just a dummy. What would be the point, now that you have won? If the entire point of this was to make fun of me and score you a win, I wouldn't want to take that joy away from you. If 'winning' was the point (and you won), I don't really see this as a conversation that will enlighten either of us (especially not you since your the clear victor).
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Eirikrautha on August 07, 2021, 06:39:36 PM
I think this will likely become the true form of pressure on the unvaccinated rather than the hyperbole of people being imprisoned for not taking the vaccine.
....Because thats so much better? If the less hyperbolic version of a kick to the dick is a punch to the face-thats not very significant in terms of public appeal.

With how flaky the situation is (with the mutating virus, lax testing, and the general weak effectiveness of the vaccine even taking it at face value) what is so unethical, or evil, or stupid about being aprehensive about taking it? Again, there is also a noted psychological effect where if you try to FORCE the undecided, they become resentful and uncompliant.

And Im vaccinated.
I think it's "better" to discuss the likely reality rather than the fevered imaginary outcomes of the crazy conspiracy theorists.
IMAX called.  They are threatening legal action over your violation of their patent concerning massive projections.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on August 07, 2021, 07:06:05 PM
Get back to a discussion on the reality of the issue then.

The "reality" is that you've allowed yourself to be injected with an experimental treatment. Something that is irreversible. The long-term consequences of which are unknown. The evidence even of short and medium term consequences is already starting to build up.

I have not and my immune system still functions as it has done up until this point. Like a proper fascist, you want to force everyone not stupid enough to have taken part in human trials for free to join in your madness to validate your poor decision making.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 07, 2021, 07:57:58 PM
Get back to a discussion on the reality of the issue then.

The "reality" is that you've allowed yourself to be injected with an experimental treatment. Something that is irreversible. The long-term consequences of which are unknown. The evidence even of short and medium term consequences is already starting to build up.

I have not and my immune system still functions as it has done up until this point. Like a proper fascist, you want to force everyone not stupid enough to have taken part in human trials for free to join in your madness to validate your poor decision making.
Show me where I've forced anyone to do anything.

BTW, in this thread I've been called a Marxist, a SJW, and now a fascist. Y'all just have to have your cult-approved labels for those that don't agree with you, don't you?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Snowman0147 on August 07, 2021, 08:19:36 PM
Get back to a discussion on the reality of the issue then.

The "reality" is that you've allowed yourself to be injected with an experimental treatment. Something that is irreversible. The long-term consequences of which are unknown. The evidence even of short and medium term consequences is already starting to build up.

I have not and my immune system still functions as it has done up until this point. Like a proper fascist, you want to force everyone not stupid enough to have taken part in human trials for free to join in your madness to validate your poor decision making.

That is a perfect summary.  I mean fuck the vaccines are not even tested and the pharmaceutical companies are made immune to be sued.  Even a retard like I can understand how stupid it is to take the vax.  Especially now that we are finding out the vaccine can, at BEST, suppress the worst symptoms.  Not even full immunity which other vaccines had no trouble in doing.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Reckall on August 07, 2021, 08:23:21 PM
Get back to a discussion on the reality of the issue then.

The "reality" is that you've allowed yourself to be injected with an experimental treatment. Something that is irreversible. The long-term consequences of which are unknown. The evidence even of short and medium term consequences is already starting to build up.

"Statements" like these would even be worthy of a glance, should the guy on the podium with the megaphone mention the hundreds of times that they have been tackled - and then debunk these answers. ::)
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Reckall on August 07, 2021, 08:29:21 PM
That is a perfect summary.  I mean fuck the vaccines are not even tested and the pharmaceutical companies are made immune to be sued.  Even a retard like I can understand how stupid it is to take the vax.

Sadly, you are not "retarded" enough to understand why it is normal that some jobs are protected by the law (and not "made immune": the wording still is "unless there’s “willful misconduct” by the company"; there is a clue for you there).
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: SonTodoGato on August 07, 2021, 11:06:54 PM


Eliminating Covid is impossible at this stage.

Excellent post save for this part. It's always been impossible. And they knew it. It's impossible to stop the spread of a virus; even with 100% vaccinations. That's how people still catch diseases to this day, in spite of mass immunization and vaccination. The flu, chicken pox, common cold, etc. are but a few. There are trillions of those viruses roaming around. Coronaviruses are no exception. There will always be another variant. There is no "post-covid" world.

You don't have to be a scientist to know this. Complete erradication of a virus is impossible; only one case happened, and that's smallpox, which was in decline way before vaccines.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on August 07, 2021, 11:37:29 PM

Excellent post save for this part. It's always been impossible. And they knew it. It's impossible to stop the spread of a virus; even with 100% vaccinations. That's how people still catch diseases to this day, in spite of mass immunization and vaccination. The flu, chicken pox, common cold, etc. are but a few. There are trillions of those viruses roaming around. Coronaviruses are no exception. There will always be another variant. There is no "post-covid" world.

You don't have to be a scientist to know this. Complete erradication of a virus is impossible; only one case happened, and that's smallpox, which was in decline way before vaccines.
It's not impossible, just extraordinarily difficult. Look at how the island nations, like New Zealand, Australia, Japan, and Taiwan have handled it. Strong border controls, testing and quarantine of new arrivals, and then immediate lockdowns and contact tracing when a few cases slip through the cracks. Contact tracing is pointless once there's widespread community transmission, but it can work when there are a small handful of cases.

It's definitely true that was never an option for the rest of the world. China didn't contain the disease, despite extraordinary measures. And in the US and Europe, there was widespread community transmission before a pandemic was declared. The genie was out of the bottle. Even the island nations are only stalling; unless they isolate themselves forever, the only thing they're doing is delaying the start of the local spread. Vaccines can mitigate the effects, but they won't extinguish the disease.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Snowman0147 on August 08, 2021, 01:05:30 AM
That is a perfect summary.  I mean fuck the vaccines are not even tested and the pharmaceutical companies are made immune to be sued.  Even a retard like I can understand how stupid it is to take the vax.

Sadly, you are not "retarded" enough to understand why it is normal that some jobs are protected by the law (and not "made immune": the wording still is "unless there’s “willful misconduct” by the company"; there is a clue for you there).

A rush job is a rush job no matter the intentions which by the way good luck proving the intentions of the pharmaceutical companies even when they did willful misconduct.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ratman_tf on August 08, 2021, 03:22:10 AM
The problem isn't willful misconduct.

The problem is, these vaccines were created and deployed to, at last count, a billion people over the world, all in the span of less than a year.

https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/covid-vaccine-safety-system-has-gaps-may-miss-unexpected-side-n1265986

I don't think the pharmecutical companies are twirling their mustaches, I simply think they and the government are protecting themselves from any tangible responsibility if there are unforseen side effects that won't manifest right away.

If that does come to pass, we'll probably get some "heartfelt" apologies mixed with a reminder that they were faced with a crisis, and a majority of people willingly took the vaccines.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Reckall on August 08, 2021, 05:11:58 AM
That is a perfect summary.  I mean fuck the vaccines are not even tested and the pharmaceutical companies are made immune to be sued.  Even a retard like I can understand how stupid it is to take the vax.

Sadly, you are not "retarded" enough to understand why it is normal that some jobs are protected by the law (and not "made immune": the wording still is "unless there’s “willful misconduct” by the company"; there is a clue for you there).

A rush job is a rush job no matter the intentions which by the way good luck proving the intentions of the pharmaceutical companies even when they did willful misconduct.

Again, how developing a vaccine in a relatively short time was made possible has been explained over and over. I would expect for someone to look at these explanations and point out where they are wrong or misleading. I would listen, but, no: "truths" are repeated with no research or context.

It is the old example of "someone fired a gun and another man died!" with no one ever considering that the other man died of a heart attack and he was deaf.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on August 08, 2021, 06:45:30 AM
Show me where I've forced anyone to do anything.

BTW, in this thread I've been called a Marxist, a SJW, and now a fascist. Y'all just have to have your cult-approved labels for those that don't agree with you, don't you?

You're talking about all the means that could be used to coerce people who don't want to be jabbed into getting jabbed. You're an advocate for medical tyranny, pretty basic fascism.

That is a perfect summary.  I mean fuck the vaccines are not even tested and the pharmaceutical companies are made immune to be sued.  Even a retard like I can understand how stupid it is to take the vax.  Especially now that we are finding out the vaccine can, at BEST, suppress the worst symptoms.  Not even full immunity which other vaccines had no trouble in doing.

My mind boggles that supposedly intelligent people don't seem to grasp this. And all for a "vaccine" that is completely unnecessary, even if it actually worked (which it doesn't).

"Statements" like these would even be worthy of a glance, should the guy on the podium with the megaphone mention the hundreds of times that they have been tackled - and then debunk these answers. ::)

Oh surprise, you have no response to any of those points.

Excellent post save for this part. It's always been impossible. And they knew it. It's impossible to stop the spread of a virus; even with 100% vaccinations. That's how people still catch diseases to this day, in spite of mass immunization and vaccination. The flu, chicken pox, common cold, etc. are but a few. There are trillions of those viruses roaming around. Coronaviruses are no exception. There will always be another variant. There is no "post-covid" world.

You don't have to be a scientist to know this. Complete erradication of a virus is impossible; only one case happened, and that's smallpox, which was in decline way before vaccines.

Exactly, coronaviruses have been endemic as long as we've had settled civilisation. It's utterly futile to attempt to "eradicate" them, and given the utter failure of 60-odd years of research into vaccines for them, we can't anyway.

Again, how developing a vaccine in a relatively short time was made possible has been explained over and over. I would expect for someone to look at these explanations and point out where they are wrong or misleading. I would listen, but, no: "truths" are repeated with no research or context.

It is the old example of "someone fired a gun and another man died!" with no one ever considering that the other man died of a heart attack and he was deaf.

It's not a "vaccine" because it doesn't provide immunity. And the fact that the snake oil has been developed in record time, cutting corners on all the normal trial methodology and licensed under emergency use with a waiver of liability for the manufacturers does commend it.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on August 08, 2021, 07:39:42 AM
That is a perfect summary.  I mean fuck the vaccines are not even tested and the pharmaceutical companies are made immune to be sued.  Even a retard like I can understand how stupid it is to take the vax.

Sadly, you are not "retarded" enough to understand why it is normal that some jobs are protected by the law (and not "made immune": the wording still is "unless there’s “willful misconduct” by the company"; there is a clue for you there).

A rush job is a rush job no matter the intentions which by the way good luck proving the intentions of the pharmaceutical companies even when they did willful misconduct.

Again, how developing a vaccine in a relatively short time was made possible has been explained over and over. I would expect for someone to look at these explanations and point out where they are wrong or misleading. I would listen, but, no: "truths" are repeated with no research or context.

It is the old example of "someone fired a gun and another man died!" with no one ever considering that the other man died of a heart attack and he was deaf.
Once again, you're making broad assertions that a broad but undefined group of people are wrong, without explaining what they said, or how it was wrong. If you want to be taken seriously, you need to address a specific claim, and respond with specifics, rather than making vague assertions about "truths" and how it's been "explained", combined with analogies that could mean anything.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 08, 2021, 08:02:56 AM
Show me where I've forced anyone to do anything.

BTW, in this thread I've been called a Marxist, a SJW, and now a fascist. Y'all just have to have your cult-approved labels for those that don't agree with you, don't you?

You're talking about all the means that could be used to coerce people who don't want to be jabbed into getting jabbed. You're an advocate for medical tyranny, pretty basic fascism.

That is a perfect summary.  I mean fuck the vaccines are not even tested and the pharmaceutical companies are made immune to be sued.  Even a retard like I can understand how stupid it is to take the vax.  Especially now that we are finding out the vaccine can, at BEST, suppress the worst symptoms.  Not even full immunity which other vaccines had no trouble in doing.

My mind boggles that supposedly intelligent people don't seem to grasp this. And all for a "vaccine" that is completely unnecessary, even if it actually worked (which it doesn't).

"Statements" like these would even be worthy of a glance, should the guy on the podium with the megaphone mention the hundreds of times that they have been tackled - and then debunk these answers. ::)

Oh surprise, you have no response to any of those points.

Excellent post save for this part. It's always been impossible. And they knew it. It's impossible to stop the spread of a virus; even with 100% vaccinations. That's how people still catch diseases to this day, in spite of mass immunization and vaccination. The flu, chicken pox, common cold, etc. are but a few. There are trillions of those viruses roaming around. Coronaviruses are no exception. There will always be another variant. There is no "post-covid" world.

You don't have to be a scientist to know this. Complete erradication of a virus is impossible; only one case happened, and that's smallpox, which was in decline way before vaccines.

Exactly, coronaviruses have been endemic as long as we've had settled civilisation. It's utterly futile to attempt to "eradicate" them, and given the utter failure of 60-odd years of research into vaccines for them, we can't anyway.

Again, how developing a vaccine in a relatively short time was made possible has been explained over and over. I would expect for someone to look at these explanations and point out where they are wrong or misleading. I would listen, but, no: "truths" are repeated with no research or context.

It is the old example of "someone fired a gun and another man died!" with no one ever considering that the other man died of a heart attack and he was deaf.

It's not a "vaccine" because it doesn't provide immunity. And the fact that the snake oil has been developed in record time, cutting corners on all the normal trial methodology and licensed under emergency use with a waiver of liability for the manufacturers does commend it.
Talking about a point doesn't mean I'm an advocate of the point. That's as moronic as assuming that anyone that discusses BLM's methods is by default an advocate of those methods. You just want so hard to see me as an enemy that you're willing to make moronic leaps to do so. You're not alone in that, and that's why I pity fools like you.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on August 08, 2021, 08:42:53 AM
Talking about a point doesn't mean I'm an advocate of the point. That's as moronic as assuming that anyone that discusses BLM's methods is by default an advocate of those methods. You just want so hard to see me as an enemy that you're willing to make moronic leaps to do so. You're not alone in that, and that's why I pity fools like you.

I'm not the one who's fucked in the autumn.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 08, 2021, 09:10:33 AM
Talking about a point doesn't mean I'm an advocate of the point. That's as moronic as assuming that anyone that discusses BLM's methods is by default an advocate of those methods. You just want so hard to see me as an enemy that you're willing to make moronic leaps to do so. You're not alone in that, and that's why I pity fools like you.

I'm not the one who's fucked in the autumn.
Well, bless your heart, more baseless conspiracy nonsense. You.just dont know.any better, do you?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Reckall on August 08, 2021, 09:14:27 AM
Get back to a discussion on the reality of the issue then.

The "reality" is that you've allowed yourself to be injected with an experimental treatment. Something that is irreversible. The long-term consequences of which are unknown. The evidence even of short and medium term consequences is already starting to build up.

I have not and my immune system still functions as it has done up until this point. Like a proper fascist, you want to force everyone not stupid enough to have taken part in human trials for free to join in your madness to validate your poor decision making.
Show me where I've forced anyone to do anything.

BTW, in this thread I've been called a Marxist, a SJW, and now a fascist. Y'all just have to have your cult-approved labels for those that don't agree with you, don't you?

Remember: 2016 US Elections were influenced by Russia. 2020 US Elections were influenced by... the "Deep State" I guess (I like more the term "Delta Green" myself).

Whatever floats your boat is good.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on August 08, 2021, 09:30:28 AM
Well, bless your heart, more baseless conspiracy nonsense. You.just dont know.any better, do you?

Every coronavirus vaccine trial before now failed because of antibody dependent enhancement. Mysteriously, all the most-vaccinated countries (Israel, Iceland, the UK) are the ones experiencing surges in infections, hospitalisations and deaths.

But sure, it's totally fine...
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Reckall on August 08, 2021, 10:46:33 AM
"Statements" like these would even be worthy of a glance, should the guy on the podium with the megaphone mention the hundreds of times that they have been tackled - and then debunk these answers. ::)

Oh surprise, you have no response to any of those points.

I already gave responses, on this very thread, with links. This is why I would expect a minimum of debunking effort, with references. But of course not anyone bothers to read what others actually say: a pulpit and a megafone don't work that way.

Anyway, here is an Article published on Nature about not only the COVID pandemic led to faster and sill safe methods to develop vaccines, but how the result could be a strategic breakthrough for medical sciences as a whole:

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-03626-1

Some hints: mRNA techniques were already known. Coronavirii were already well known. World cooperation. Superfunding.

If Nature uses too many $10 words for you, here is an article by Medical News Today:

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/how-did-we-develop-a-covid-19-vaccine-so-quickly#Worldwide-collaboration

Actually, mRNA vaccines are already being tested as a way to fight cancer:

https://molecular-cancer.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12943-021-01335-5

Regarding why vaccine creators are protected by Law...

BECAUSE WITHOUT SUCH LAWS NO ONE WOULD EVER CREATE VACCINES

[Or a better version of Tylenol, for what matters.]

This protection was not made up out of thin air after the COVID emergency. The US Supreme Court passed it in May, 2018 - when a pandemic was only one of the vague menaces decried by soothsayers.

https://www.policymed.com/2011/03/supreme-court-rules-in-favor-of-protecting-vaccine-makers-from-state-lawsuits.html

You can ever read the 57 pages opinion written by Justice Antonin Scalia:

http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/10pdf/09-152.pdf

You disagree? These are fake news? Snake oil would be better? Fine. Debunk them. give me facts. Give me references. I promise that I'll read them. I already did regarding other matters on this thread.

Otherwise you are not different from the sheep in "Animal Farm": "Vaccines were rushed!" and such become only meaningless sound bleated by the sheep ("Two legs baa-d. Four legs goo-d."), serving no purpose other than to drown out dissenting opinion without tackling it.

Every coronavirus vaccine trial before now failed because of antibody dependent enhancement. Mysteriously, all the most-vaccinated countries (Israel, Iceland, the UK) are the ones experiencing surges in infections, hospitalisations and deaths.

No.

https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-iceland-vaccines-idUSL1N2P918F

"Vaccines cause variants!"

Nope.

https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-delta-vaccine-idUSL1N2OW1TA

You disagree? Facts, please, not the sad, inane, internet hearsay spotlighted in these links - and that you are just regurgitating.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on August 08, 2021, 11:03:28 AM
"Statements" like these would even be worthy of a glance, should the guy on the podium with the megaphone mention the hundreds of times that they have been tackled - and then debunk these answers. ::)

Oh surprise, you have no response to any of those points.

I already gave responses, on this very thread, with links. This is why I would expect a minimum of debunking effort, with references. But of course not anyone bothers to read what others actually say: a pulpit and a megafone don't work that way.

Anyway, here is an Article published on Nature about not only the COVID pandemic led to faster and sill safe methods to develop vaccines, but how the result could be a strategic breakthrough for medical sciences as a whole:
I notice you cut out the "statement" you're refuting. Here is it:

The "reality" is that you've allowed yourself to be injected with an experimental treatment. Something that is irreversible. The long-term consequences of which are unknown. The evidence even of short and medium term consequences is already starting to build up.
You didn't address a single one of those points.

For someone whose go-to response is "nobody reads my posts", you're not very good at reading other people's posts.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Reckall on August 08, 2021, 11:20:02 AM
"Statements" like these would even be worthy of a glance, should the guy on the podium with the megaphone mention the hundreds of times that they have been tackled - and then debunk these answers. ::)

Oh surprise, you have no response to any of those points.

I already gave responses, on this very thread, with links. This is why I would expect a minimum of debunking effort, with references. But of course not anyone bothers to read what others actually say: a pulpit and a megafone don't work that way.

Anyway, here is an Article published on Nature about not only the COVID pandemic led to faster and sill safe methods to develop vaccines, but how the result could be a strategic breakthrough for medical sciences as a whole:
I notice you cut out the "statement" you're refuting. Here is it:

The "reality" is that you've allowed yourself to be injected with an experimental treatment. Something that is irreversible. The long-term consequences of which are unknown. The evidence even of short and medium term consequences is already starting to build up.
You didn't address a single one of those points.

For someone whose go-to response is "nobody reads my posts", you're not very good at reading other people's posts.

Or maybe I already tackled all those points, in this very thread. Try to check.

Oh, BTW, in my latest post I made an obvious mistake. My bad: just glancing at it is enough to catch it. But I guess you didn't read it. Of course the answer was instead the usual rush to "You didn't address this!" about things addressed over and over here.

Not even my request for facts and links was enough to prevent...
Quote
The evidence even of short and medium term consequences is already starting to build up.

...Without facts and links. ::) No. The usual Twitterati factoid, instead. Given as that. The literal Word of God.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Eirikrautha on August 08, 2021, 11:25:29 AM
"Vaccines cause variants!"

Nope.

https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-delta-vaccine-idUSL1N2OW1TA

You disagree? Facts, please, not the sad, inane, internet hearsay spotlighted in these links - and that you are just regurgitating.

Reuters?  Try peer reviewed:
https://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.1002198

And the CDC:
https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021/s0730-mmwr-covid-19.html

The CDC has disclosed that the delta variant replicates more quickly in the nose than previous variants, meaning that it spreads through vaccinated hosts before the majority of the immune response (which mainly occurs in the lungs / CV system) is triggered.  Based on this, they admit (they head of the CDC said this on CNN) that the vaccines reduce the severity of Covid, but don't prevent infection.  Previous research has shown for other viruses : "Our data show that anti-disease vaccines that do not prevent transmission can create conditions that promote the emergence of pathogen strains that cause more severe disease in unvaccinated hosts."

So vaccines that allow reproduction and/or continued transmission may very well create new strains.  So you are wrong.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on August 08, 2021, 11:26:47 AM
"Statements" like these would even be worthy of a glance, should the guy on the podium with the megaphone mention the hundreds of times that they have been tackled - and then debunk these answers. ::)

Oh surprise, you have no response to any of those points.

I already gave responses, on this very thread, with links. This is why I would expect a minimum of debunking effort, with references. But of course not anyone bothers to read what others actually say: a pulpit and a megafone don't work that way.

Anyway, here is an Article published on Nature about not only the COVID pandemic led to faster and sill safe methods to develop vaccines, but how the result could be a strategic breakthrough for medical sciences as a whole:
I notice you cut out the "statement" you're refuting. Here is it:

The "reality" is that you've allowed yourself to be injected with an experimental treatment. Something that is irreversible. The long-term consequences of which are unknown. The evidence even of short and medium term consequences is already starting to build up.
You didn't address a single one of those points.

For someone whose go-to response is "nobody reads my posts", you're not very good at reading other people's posts.

Or maybe I already tackled all those points, in this very thread. Try to check.

Oh, BTW, in my latest post I made an obvious mistake. My bad: just glancing at it is enough to catch it. But I guess you didn't read it. Of course the answer was instead the usual rush to "You didn't address this!" about things addressed over and over here.

Not even my request for facts and links was enough to prevent...
Quote
The evidence even of short and medium term consequences is already starting to build up.

...Without facts and links. ::) No. The usual Twitterati factoid, instead. Given as that. The literal Word of God.
So you responded to a post
Where you criticized the poster for not reading your posts
And then ignored the content of the post you were replying to
And instead posted a bunch of things that had nothing to do with what they said
And when I pointed that out
You told me it was my fault because I didn't read all the other posts in the thread where you replied to the post before it even existed

Yea, that makes perfect sense.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on August 08, 2021, 11:26:57 AM
I can't really argue points said by experts because Im not a experts. It would be one source (with their own biases) VS another source (with their own biases).

I don't know the science behind it well enough to argue one way or the other, which is why my concerns hang more on motivations and general actions.

Its like with global warming: I don't 100% know whats going on. But global warming advocates will reject any sort of assistance or compromise that doesn't involve absolute submission to their ideals. We don't need to 100% agree to remove plastics from the oceans for instance, but every global warming advocate I have spoken to will NEVER let their demand for submission go. Which tells me this (even if the science is accurate) is more a ego thing then a function thing.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on August 08, 2021, 11:44:02 AM
  I do not get the fight over the vax.  If you think you are vulnerable, or need it, get it.  If you are not and do not feel that way, do not get it.  If it had higher mortality of it's own I might feel differently, but it does not.  Kids do not seem bothered a whit, and for the most part fat people, old people with issues and diabetics seems the most vulnerable.  That has not changed.  If you fall into a category of concern due to data or your own feelings, wear a respirator or a gas mask out and about in the world.  Problem solved.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 08, 2021, 11:54:04 AM
"Vaccines cause variants!"

Nope.

https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-delta-vaccine-idUSL1N2OW1TA

You disagree? Facts, please, not the sad, inane, internet hearsay spotlighted in these links - and that you are just regurgitating.

Reuters?  Try peer reviewed:
https://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.1002198

And the CDC:
https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021/s0730-mmwr-covid-19.html

The CDC has disclosed that the delta variant replicates more quickly in the nose than previous variants, meaning that it spreads through vaccinated hosts before the majority of the immune response (which mainly occurs in the lungs / CV system) is triggered.  Based on this, they admit (they head of the CDC said this on CNN) that the vaccines reduce the severity of Covid, but don't prevent infection.  Previous research has shown for other viruses : "Our data show that anti-disease vaccines that do not prevent transmission can create conditions that promote the emergence of pathogen strains that cause more severe disease in unvaccinated hosts."

So vaccines that allow reproduction and/or continued transmission may very well create new strains.  So you are wrong.
Those point to that being a threat to the unvaccinated. Being vaccinated is a way to reduce that theat.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on August 08, 2021, 11:58:55 AM
  I do not get the fight over the vax.  If you think you are vulnerable, or need it, get it.  If you are not and do not feel that way, do not get it.  If it had higher mortality of it's own I might feel differently, but it does not.  Kids do not seem bothered a whit, and for the most part fat people, old people with issues and diabetics seems the most vulnerable.  That has not changed.  If you fall into a category of concern due to data or your own feelings, wear a respirator or a gas mask out and about in the world.  Problem solved.

There's a "fight" because the cunts in charge think they can force it on my children.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 08, 2021, 11:59:09 AM
  I do not get the fight over the vax.  If you think you are vulnerable, or need it, get it.  If you are not and do not feel that way, do not get it.  If it had higher mortality of it's own I might feel differently, but it does not.  Kids do not seem bothered a whit, and for the most part fat people, old people with issues and diabetics seems the most vulnerable.  That has not changed.  If you fall into a category of concern due to data or your own feelings, wear a respirator or a gas mask out and about in the world.  Problem solved.
I have seen very few children that test positive with Delta Covid, and none have had any major symptoms. I've seen several adolescents and people in their 20s testing positive, but their symptoms have been largely GI disturbances rather than the life-threatening lower respiratory conditions.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 08, 2021, 12:00:12 PM
  I do not get the fight over the vax.  If you think you are vulnerable, or need it, get it.  If you are not and do not feel that way, do not get it.  If it had higher mortality of it's own I might feel differently, but it does not.  Kids do not seem bothered a whit, and for the most part fat people, old people with issues and diabetics seems the most vulnerable.  That has not changed.  If you fall into a category of concern due to data or your own feelings, wear a respirator or a gas mask out and about in the world.  Problem solved.

There's a "fight" because the cunts in charge think they can force it on my children.
Evidence? Show us some footage of someone forcing it upon your children.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on August 08, 2021, 12:01:19 PM
No.

https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-iceland-vaccines-idUSL1N2P918F

"Vaccines cause variants!"

Nope.

https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-delta-vaccine-idUSL1N2OW1TA

You disagree? Facts, please, not the sad, inane, internet hearsay spotlighted in these links - and that you are just regurgitating.
You produce bullshit from "fact checkers" in earnest and expect me to take you seriously?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on August 08, 2021, 12:04:58 PM
Evidence? Show us some footage of someone forcing it upon your children.

Reading comprehension isn't your strong suit, is it? I said they think they can. Not being a blinkered moron like yourself, I am capable of inferring motives from activities, such as the latest missive from our JCVI where they issued a statement on jabbing 12-17 year olds: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/jcvi-statement-august-2021-covid-19-vaccination-of-children-and-young-people-aged-12-to-17-years/jcvi-statement-on-covid-19-vaccination-of-children-and-young-people-aged-12-to-17-years-4-august-2021

That's everyone at secondary school. Meanwhile the manufacturers are seeking approval to jab 5-11 year olds (do you need me to go and find easily sourced articles showing them seeking that approval too?), which will cover everyone at primary school.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Reckall on August 08, 2021, 12:07:50 PM
"Vaccines cause variants!"

Nope.

https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-delta-vaccine-idUSL1N2OW1TA

You disagree? Facts, please, not the sad, inane, internet hearsay spotlighted in these links - and that you are just regurgitating.

Reuters?  Try peer reviewed:
https://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.1002198

And the CDC:
https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021/s0730-mmwr-covid-19.html

The CDC has disclosed that the delta variant replicates more quickly in the nose than previous variants, meaning that it spreads through vaccinated hosts before the majority of the immune response (which mainly occurs in the lungs / CV system) is triggered.  Based on this, they admit (they head of the CDC said this on CNN) that the vaccines reduce the severity of Covid, but don't prevent infection.  Previous research has shown for other viruses : "Our data show that anti-disease vaccines that do not prevent transmission can create conditions that promote the emergence of pathogen strains that cause more severe disease in unvaccinated hosts."

So vaccines that allow reproduction and/or continued transmission may very well create new strains.  So you are wrong.

Sigh.

You haven't really read everything through, did you?

And, honestly, I'm starting to be tired to read links for people who just post them. "Mom, can you read me 'Snow White and the Rocket Launcher'?" should belong to children. Maybe it is.

Anyway...

I post a link about how "Vaccines do not create variants." That's the point of the link.

And you answer with links that say:

"Imperfect Vaccination Can Enhance the Transmission of Highly Virulent Pathogens" from 2015.

I mean... it is in the title! "Imperfect Vaccination"! ;D Who ever talked of "imperfect vaccinations" regarding Covid? Have you read the definition of "Imperfect Vaccination" given in the study? Does it apply to the current batch of vaccines? Answer: until proven otherwise, no. It is possible that a case could be made for the Chinese and Russian vaccines - not about what we are talking here. Also, you go against what is being observed out the practical experience born out a global pandemic, with billions of test cases observed over months... with a 2015 study who is the very first to admit that such expectation is only theoretical?

Then you fire your CDC link. A link with a very simple content, actually. It says:

"Delta infection resulted in similarly high SARS-CoV-2 viral loads in vaccinated and unvaccinated people. High viral loads suggest an increased risk of transmission and raised concern that, unlike with other variants, vaccinated people infected with Delta can transmit the virus."


Nowhere it says that "The Delta Variant was created by vaccines". More, the very text you linked says that being vaccinated still protects against all other variants and that you can't transmit them - which is still better than nothing.

[Which is one of the reasons why I think that a third shot will be mandatory]

The CDC, however, never pulled down this:

COVID-19 variants do not derive from the vaccine. The vaccine cannot replicate the virus. Guidance from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) explaining how mRNA vaccines only provide instructions to the cells in the human body on how to make a “spike protein” is visible here .

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/different-vaccines/mrna.html

Uff... ::)

Let's close with a small gem from a "Owner of the Truth":

You produce bullshit from "fact checkers" in earnest and expect me to take you seriously?

Bullshit? Cite. Counter-Facts? Links?

Either that or you are just in denial of everything that goes against the world view that you have decided for everybody - which is very SJW and "Tolkien was a Transgender!", but has nothing to do with a real and serious problem like a pandemic.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 08, 2021, 12:12:52 PM
Evidence? Show us some footage of someone forcing it upon your children.

Reading comprehension isn't your strong suit, is it? I said they think they can. Not being a blinkered moron like yourself, I am capable of inferring motives from activities, such as the latest missive from our JCVI where they issued a statement on jabbing 12-17 year olds: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/jcvi-statement-august-2021-covid-19-vaccination-of-children-and-young-people-aged-12-to-17-years/jcvi-statement-on-covid-19-vaccination-of-children-and-young-people-aged-12-to-17-years-4-august-2021

That's everyone at secondary school. Meanwhile the manufacturers are seeking approval to jab 5-11 year olds (do you need me to go and find easily sourced articles showing them seeking that approval too?), which will cover everyone at primary school.
So...ThoughtCrime then? People can think whatever the fuck they want. Show me someone taking action or else you're just another crazy nutter running his cakehole.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on August 08, 2021, 12:14:41 PM
So...ThoughtCrime then? People can think whatever the fuck they want. Show me someone taking action or else you're just another crazy nutter running his cakehole.

They're the people responsible for the vaccination programme in the UK, you imbecile. It's not some random opinion piece in an obscure online publication.

It's a statement of intent from the people doing the jabbing. They wouldn't carry out that assessment unless someone in government had given them the nod that it's happening.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on August 08, 2021, 12:16:41 PM
  I do not get the fight over the vax.  If you think you are vulnerable, or need it, get it.  If you are not and do not feel that way, do not get it.  If it had higher mortality of it's own I might feel differently, but it does not.  Kids do not seem bothered a whit, and for the most part fat people, old people with issues and diabetics seems the most vulnerable.  That has not changed.  If you fall into a category of concern due to data or your own feelings, wear a respirator or a gas mask out and about in the world.  Problem solved.

There's a "fight" because the cunts in charge think they can force it on my children.
 
  You misunderstand me.  I mean on this forum.  I do not see any laws/policies as yet mandating vaccines for my kids.  I do think there are most certainly people who would LOVE to mandate such a thing.  But honestly a person's thoughts do not bother me as much as overt actions.  If schools become vaccine mandates for covid, I will just send my kids to private school.  If they go the same route...well homeschool and private online schools are taken  A MASSIVE step forward in quality and presentation (and funding) the past year and a half.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Eirikrautha on August 08, 2021, 12:18:03 PM
"Vaccines cause variants!"

Nope.

https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-delta-vaccine-idUSL1N2OW1TA

You disagree? Facts, please, not the sad, inane, internet hearsay spotlighted in these links - and that you are just regurgitating.

Reuters?  Try peer reviewed:
https://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.1002198

And the CDC:
https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021/s0730-mmwr-covid-19.html

The CDC has disclosed that the delta variant replicates more quickly in the nose than previous variants, meaning that it spreads through vaccinated hosts before the majority of the immune response (which mainly occurs in the lungs / CV system) is triggered.  Based on this, they admit (they head of the CDC said this on CNN) that the vaccines reduce the severity of Covid, but don't prevent infection.  Previous research has shown for other viruses : "Our data show that anti-disease vaccines that do not prevent transmission can create conditions that promote the emergence of pathogen strains that cause more severe disease in unvaccinated hosts."

So vaccines that allow reproduction and/or continued transmission may very well create new strains.  So you are wrong.

Sigh.

You haven't really read everything through, did you?

And, honestly, I'm starting to be tired to read links for people who just post them. "Mom, can you read me 'Snow White and the Rocket Launcher'?" should belong to children. Maybe it is.

Anyway...

I post a link about how "Vaccines do not create variants." That's the point of the link.

And you answer with links that say:

"Imperfect Vaccination Can Enhance the Transmission of Highly Virulent Pathogens" from 2015.

I mean... it is in the title! "Imperfect Vaccination"! ;D Who ever talked of "imperfect vaccinations" regarding Covid? Have you read the definition of "Imperfect Vaccination" given in the study? Does it apply to the current batch of vaccines? Answer: until proven otherwise, no. It is possible that a case could be made for the Chinese and Russian vaccines - not about what we are talking here. Also, you go against what is being observed out the practical experience born out a global pandemic, with billions of test cases observed over months... with a 2015 study who is the very first to admit that such expectation is only theoretical?

Then you fire your CDC link. A link with a very simple content, actually. It says:

"Delta infection resulted in similarly high SARS-CoV-2 viral loads in vaccinated and unvaccinated people. High viral loads suggest an increased risk of transmission and raised concern that, unlike with other variants, vaccinated people infected with Delta can transmit the virus."


Nowhere it says that "The Delta Variant was created by vaccines". More, the very text you linked says that being vaccinated still protects against all other variants and that you can't transmit them - which is still better than nothing.

[Which is one of the reasons why I think that a third shot will be mandatory]

The CDC, however, never pulled down this:

COVID-19 variants do not derive from the vaccine. The vaccine cannot replicate the virus. Guidance from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) explaining how mRNA vaccines only provide instructions to the cells in the human body on how to make a “spike protein” is visible here .

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/different-vaccines/mrna.html

Uff... ::)

Let's close with a small gem from a "Owner of the Truth":

You produce bullshit from "fact checkers" in earnest and expect me to take you seriously?

Bullshit? Cite. Counter-Facts? Links?

Either that or you are just in denial of everything that goes against the world view that you have decided for everybody - which is very SJW and "Tolkien was a Transgender!", but has nothing to do with a real and serious problem like a pandemic.
Moving the goalposts, I see.  You didn't say "vaccines didn't cause delta".  You said "Vaccines cause variants.  Nope!"  You did not address the central point: Vaccines that don't stop transmission can drive viral variance (which is what "imperfect" means in the context of the article, you uneducated dolt).  The Covid vaccines don't stop transmission well.  Therefore...
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on August 08, 2021, 12:19:16 PM
You misunderstand me.  I mean on this forum.  I do not see any laws/policies as yet mandating vaccines for my kids.  I do think there are most certainly people who would LOVE to mandate such a thing.  But honestly a person's thoughts do not bother me as much as overt actions.  If schools become vaccine mandates for covid, I will just send my kids to private school.  If they go the same route...well homeschool and private online schools are taken  A MASSIVE step forward in quality and presentation (and funding) the past year and a half.

Not everyone on this forum is American. Here in the UK they've already extended the vaccination programme to 16 and 17 year olds, saying they're going to ignore parental consent that is usually required for this sort of thing. And they're signalling that 12-15 year olds are next.

All it will take is the requisite pressure from the teaching unions who demand that all children be jabbed to make teachers "safe" and it will become a requirement to attend school.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on August 08, 2021, 12:21:52 PM
You misunderstand me.  I mean on this forum.  I do not see any laws/policies as yet mandating vaccines for my kids.  I do think there are most certainly people who would LOVE to mandate such a thing.  But honestly a person's thoughts do not bother me as much as overt actions.  If schools become vaccine mandates for covid, I will just send my kids to private school.  If they go the same route...well homeschool and private online schools are taken  A MASSIVE step forward in quality and presentation (and funding) the past year and a half.

Not everyone on this forum is American. Here in the UK they've already extended the vaccination programme to 16 and 17 year olds, saying they're going to ignore parental consent that is usually required for this sort of thing. And they're signalling that 12-15 year olds are next.

   Well, no offense, but in the UK you have long since surrendered any real chance of defying your government in a meaningful manner.    However, to that point, I am certain I do not want an institution educating my kids that feel they can mandate some things based on some pretty shaky ground (and no one tries to make Covid look deadly to kids...only to the old people they may know, who IMO can get a shot and wear a gas mask).
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Eirikrautha on August 08, 2021, 12:23:16 PM
"Vaccines cause variants!"

Nope.

https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-delta-vaccine-idUSL1N2OW1TA

You disagree? Facts, please, not the sad, inane, internet hearsay spotlighted in these links - and that you are just regurgitating.

Reuters?  Try peer reviewed:
https://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.1002198

And the CDC:
https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021/s0730-mmwr-covid-19.html

The CDC has disclosed that the delta variant replicates more quickly in the nose than previous variants, meaning that it spreads through vaccinated hosts before the majority of the immune response (which mainly occurs in the lungs / CV system) is triggered.  Based on this, they admit (they head of the CDC said this on CNN) that the vaccines reduce the severity of Covid, but don't prevent infection.  Previous research has shown for other viruses : "Our data show that anti-disease vaccines that do not prevent transmission can create conditions that promote the emergence of pathogen strains that cause more severe disease in unvaccinated hosts."

So vaccines that allow reproduction and/or continued transmission may very well create new strains.  So you are wrong.
Those point to that being a threat to the unvaccinated. Being vaccinated is a way to reduce that theat.
So vaccination should just be a personal choice, based on each individual's own risk assessment?  Because a lot of people have told me that we have to mandate vaccination in order to prevent the development of new variants.  So you're saying that's not an issue at all for vaccinated people?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 08, 2021, 12:25:21 PM
So...ThoughtCrime then? People can think whatever the fuck they want. Show me someone taking action or else you're just another crazy nutter running his cakehole.

They're the people responsible for the vaccination programme in the UK, you imbecile. It's not some random opinion piece in an obscure online publication.

It's a statement of intent from the people doing the jabbing. They wouldn't carry out that assessment unless someone in government had given them the nod that it's happening.
So what horrible *actions* have they taken? Not interested in your interpretation of what they want or what they think, I just want a link to what reprehensible actions they've taken.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on August 08, 2021, 12:26:01 PM
Moving the goalposts, I see.
That's a mild case. Usually, Reckall just ignores the goalposts, runs to a completely different field, makes sure nobody's around, closes to within 2 feet of the goal, kicks the ball thru, and then tries to claim victory.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on August 08, 2021, 12:26:43 PM
cake hole.
So what horrible *actions* have they taken? Not interested in your interpretation of what they want or what they think, I just want a link to what reprehensible actions they've taken.

You can't see further than your nose, unless someone has mapped it out for you. Got it.

Must be wonderfully liberating to live such a blinkered existence, do you get surprised a lot?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 08, 2021, 12:28:28 PM
"Vaccines cause variants!"

Nope.

https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-delta-vaccine-idUSL1N2OW1TA

You disagree? Facts, please, not the sad, inane, internet hearsay spotlighted in these links - and that you are just regurgitating.

Reuters?  Try peer reviewed:
https://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.1002198

And the CDC:
https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021/s0730-mmwr-covid-19.html

The CDC has disclosed that the delta variant replicates more quickly in the nose than previous variants, meaning that it spreads through vaccinated hosts before the majority of the immune response (which mainly occurs in the lungs / CV system) is triggered.  Based on this, they admit (they head of the CDC said this on CNN) that the vaccines reduce the severity of Covid, but don't prevent infection.  Previous research has shown for other viruses : "Our data show that anti-disease vaccines that do not prevent transmission can create conditions that promote the emergence of pathogen strains that cause more severe disease in unvaccinated hosts."

So vaccines that allow reproduction and/or continued transmission may very well create new strains.  So you are wrong.
Those point to that being a threat to the unvaccinated. Being vaccinated is a way to reduce that theat.
So vaccination should just be a personal choice, based on each individual's own risk assessment?  Because a lot of people have told me that we have to mandate vaccination in order to prevent the development of new variants.  So you're saying that's not an issue at all for vaccinated people?
I'm saying that your source doesn't support the part of the discussion you're now trying to go with.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Reckall on August 08, 2021, 12:36:55 PM
Moving the goalposts, I see.
That's a mild case. Usually, Reckall just ignores the goalposts, runs to a completely different field, makes sure nobody's around, closes to within 2 feet of the goal, kicks the ball thru, and then tries to claim victory.

I admit that doing this, vs. simply claiming victory "because", is unpractical :D
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on August 08, 2021, 12:43:20 PM
Moving the goalposts, I see.
That's a mild case. Usually, Reckall just ignores the goalposts, runs to a completely different field, makes sure nobody's around, closes to within 2 feet of the goal, kicks the ball thru, and then tries to claim victory.

I admit that doing this, vs. simply claiming victory "because", is unpractical :D
It's good you admit you're behaving in such a shitty fashion.

It would be better if you just stopped acting like that.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Eirikrautha on August 08, 2021, 12:49:53 PM
"Vaccines cause variants!"

Nope.

https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-delta-vaccine-idUSL1N2OW1TA

You disagree? Facts, please, not the sad, inane, internet hearsay spotlighted in these links - and that you are just regurgitating.

Reuters?  Try peer reviewed:
https://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.1002198

And the CDC:
https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021/s0730-mmwr-covid-19.html

The CDC has disclosed that the delta variant replicates more quickly in the nose than previous variants, meaning that it spreads through vaccinated hosts before the majority of the immune response (which mainly occurs in the lungs / CV system) is triggered.  Based on this, they admit (they head of the CDC said this on CNN) that the vaccines reduce the severity of Covid, but don't prevent infection.  Previous research has shown for other viruses : "Our data show that anti-disease vaccines that do not prevent transmission can create conditions that promote the emergence of pathogen strains that cause more severe disease in unvaccinated hosts."

So vaccines that allow reproduction and/or continued transmission may very well create new strains.  So you are wrong.
Those point to that being a threat to the unvaccinated. Being vaccinated is a way to reduce that theat.
So vaccination should just be a personal choice, based on each individual's own risk assessment?  Because a lot of people have told me that we have to mandate vaccination in order to prevent the development of new variants.  So you're saying that's not an issue at all for vaccinated people?
I'm saying that your source doesn't support the part of the discussion you're now trying to go with.
You'd be wrong (as usual).  Do vaccines that stop serious consequences from illness, but do not stop transmission of the virus, present a possible vector for viral variance?  I have posted a peer-reviewed article that says exactly that.  Post your (preferably peer-reviewed) refutation.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Reckall on August 08, 2021, 12:53:03 PM
Moving the goalposts, I see.
That's a mild case. Usually, Reckall just ignores the goalposts, runs to a completely different field, makes sure nobody's around, closes to within 2 feet of the goal, kicks the ball thru, and then tries to claim victory.

I admit that doing this, vs. simply claiming victory "because", is unpractical :D
It's good you admit you're behaving in such a shitty fashion.

It would be better if you just stopped acting like that.

It would be even better to see a real discussion going on. ::)
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on August 08, 2021, 01:00:17 PM
Moving the goalposts, I see.
That's a mild case. Usually, Reckall just ignores the goalposts, runs to a completely different field, makes sure nobody's around, closes to within 2 feet of the goal, kicks the ball thru, and then tries to claim victory.

I admit that doing this, vs. simply claiming victory "because", is unpractical :D
It's good you admit you're behaving in such a shitty fashion.

It would be better if you just stopped acting like that.

It would be even better to see a real discussion going on. ::)
Yeah, that's the point. There's no way to have a real discussion when you keep ignoring what people say, posting lots of links without making a coherent argument, and telling people it's already been covered and they need to read the whole thread again to guess what you're not saying.

You're the one shutting down any hope of a real conversation. You.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 08, 2021, 01:02:58 PM
"Vaccines cause variants!"

Nope.

https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-delta-vaccine-idUSL1N2OW1TA

You disagree? Facts, please, not the sad, inane, internet hearsay spotlighted in these links - and that you are just regurgitating.

Reuters?  Try peer reviewed:
https://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.1002198

And the CDC:
https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021/s0730-mmwr-covid-19.html

The CDC has disclosed that the delta variant replicates more quickly in the nose than previous variants, meaning that it spreads through vaccinated hosts before the majority of the immune response (which mainly occurs in the lungs / CV system) is triggered.  Based on this, they admit (they head of the CDC said this on CNN) that the vaccines reduce the severity of Covid, but don't prevent infection.  Previous research has shown for other viruses : "Our data show that anti-disease vaccines that do not prevent transmission can create conditions that promote the emergence of pathogen strains that cause more severe disease in unvaccinated hosts."

So vaccines that allow reproduction and/or continued transmission may very well create new strains.  So you are wrong.
Those point to that being a threat to the unvaccinated. Being vaccinated is a way to reduce that theat.
So vaccination should just be a personal choice, based on each individual's own risk assessment?  Because a lot of people have told me that we have to mandate vaccination in order to prevent the development of new variants.  So you're saying that's not an issue at all for vaccinated people?
I'm saying that your source doesn't support the part of the discussion you're now trying to go with.
You'd be wrong (as usual).  Do vaccines that stop serious consequences from illness, but do not stop transmission of the virus, present a possible vector for viral variance?  I have posted a peer-reviewed article that says exactly that.  Post your (preferably peer-reviewed) refutation.
Nope. You're drawing imagined meanings from your source. Your article isn't bad, but your interpretation of it is shit.

And I don't have to do what you demand. You should know this by now. I don't respect you enough to go along with your idiocy.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Reckall on August 08, 2021, 01:06:19 PM
"Vaccines cause variants!"

Nope.

https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-delta-vaccine-idUSL1N2OW1TA

You disagree? Facts, please, not the sad, inane, internet hearsay spotlighted in these links - and that you are just regurgitating.

Reuters?  Try peer reviewed:
https://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.1002198

And the CDC:
https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021/s0730-mmwr-covid-19.html

The CDC has disclosed that the delta variant replicates more quickly in the nose than previous variants, meaning that it spreads through vaccinated hosts before the majority of the immune response (which mainly occurs in the lungs / CV system) is triggered.  Based on this, they admit (they head of the CDC said this on CNN) that the vaccines reduce the severity of Covid, but don't prevent infection.  Previous research has shown for other viruses : "Our data show that anti-disease vaccines that do not prevent transmission can create conditions that promote the emergence of pathogen strains that cause more severe disease in unvaccinated hosts."

So vaccines that allow reproduction and/or continued transmission may very well create new strains.  So you are wrong.
Those point to that being a threat to the unvaccinated. Being vaccinated is a way to reduce that theat.
So vaccination should just be a personal choice, based on each individual's own risk assessment?  Because a lot of people have told me that we have to mandate vaccination in order to prevent the development of new variants.  So you're saying that's not an issue at all for vaccinated people?
I'm saying that your source doesn't support the part of the discussion you're now trying to go with.
You'd be wrong (as usual).  Do vaccines that stop serious consequences from illness, but do not stop transmission of the virus, present a possible vector for viral variance?  I have posted a peer-reviewed article that says exactly that.

No, it doesn't, from the very title: "Imperfect Vaccination". No vaccine approved for emergency use by the FDA/EMA ever got the label "imperfect".

And what it says is that "Imperfect Vaccinations" can cause the vaccinated guy to be a possible vector for viral variances the way an unvaccinated guy is. However, we also saw - in the CDC link that you posted - how in our specific case only the Delta variant is a nasty little bugger for vaccinated people. Other variants are blocked by vaccines. Unvaccinated people get and distribute all the variants. The whole package.

The peer-reviewed refutation of what you posted are the very links you posted. Thank you for the effort.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ghostmaker on August 08, 2021, 01:17:56 PM
(https://gunfreezone.net/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/6C92A77F-5E33-4EEF-817C-BDF5E128F121.png)

He deleted his account, of course, but the Wayback Machine saved a copy. http://web.archive.org/web/20210804173841/https://twitter.com/larsmcmurtry

But by all means, 'it's just conspiracy talk that we want people to be forced to take the vax!'.

After the first felony, the rest are free, you know.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Reckall on August 08, 2021, 01:19:17 PM
Moving the goalposts, I see.
That's a mild case. Usually, Reckall just ignores the goalposts, runs to a completely different field, makes sure nobody's around, closes to within 2 feet of the goal, kicks the ball thru, and then tries to claim victory.

I admit that doing this, vs. simply claiming victory "because", is unpractical :D
It's good you admit you're behaving in such a shitty fashion.

It would be better if you just stopped acting like that.

It would be even better to see a real discussion going on. ::)
Yeah, that's the point. There's no way to have a real discussion when you keep ignoring what people say
Nope. Disagreeing with what people say =/= ignoring what people say.
Quote
Posting lots of links without making a coherent argument

I try to post link pertinent to the specific topic that post refers to. There are many subtopics in this thread. This may give the idea of confusion, but a bit of patience is needed to follow the various subthreads.

Quote
and telling people it's already been covered and they need to read the whole thread again to guess what you're not saying.

I gave my opinion pro or against something - usually with links and even abstracts (*). When someone comes down screaming that I never tackled a certain topic I simply point out that I actually did. What should I do? Copy & Paste 20 times something because 20 people are too lazy to, you know, read the thread they are posting in?

Quote
You're the one shutting down any hope of a real conversation. You.

If with this you mean that my posts get reactions like "How do you dare to point out that what I'm saying has been thoroughly debunked everywhere??? It is true because I say it!!" then, yes, I'm shutting down "conversations".
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on August 08, 2021, 01:25:39 PM
Moving the goalposts, I see.
That's a mild case. Usually, Reckall just ignores the goalposts, runs to a completely different field, makes sure nobody's around, closes to within 2 feet of the goal, kicks the ball thru, and then tries to claim victory.

I admit that doing this, vs. simply claiming victory "because", is unpractical :D
It's good you admit you're behaving in such a shitty fashion.

It would be better if you just stopped acting like that.

It would be even better to see a real discussion going on. ::)
Yeah, that's the point. There's no way to have a real discussion when you keep ignoring what people say
Nope. Disagreeing with what people say =/= ignoring what people say.
That's a good example of ignoring what I said, because this particular discussion started because I pointed out that you replied to Kiero and claimed victory, but didn't address a single thing Kiero said.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 08, 2021, 01:29:27 PM
Moving the goalposts, I see.
That's a mild case. Usually, Reckall just ignores the goalposts, runs to a completely different field, makes sure nobody's around, closes to within 2 feet of the goal, kicks the ball thru, and then tries to claim victory.

I admit that doing this, vs. simply claiming victory "because", is unpractical :D
It's good you admit you're behaving in such a shitty fashion.

It would be better if you just stopped acting like that.

It would be even better to see a real discussion going on. ::)
Yeah, that's the point. There's no way to have a real discussion when you keep ignoring what people say, posting lots of links without making a coherent argument, and telling people it's already been covered and they need to read the whole thread again to guess what you're not saying.

You're the one shutting down any hope of a real conversation. You.
No...

There is another.

Actually,  just about everyone here only wants a "conversation" so long as it follows their narrative.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 08, 2021, 01:32:40 PM
(https://gunfreezone.net/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/6C92A77F-5E33-4EEF-817C-BDF5E128F121.png)

He deleted his account, of course, but the Wayback Machine saved a copy. http://web.archive.org/web/20210804173841/https://twitter.com/larsmcmurtry

But by all means, 'it's just conspiracy talk that we want people to be forced to take the vax!'.

After the first felony, the rest are free, you know.
So the guy has a posting style that's much like that of SHARK. Both make outlandish claims and encourage violence towards those that disagree with them. Both are repugnant, but that hardly creates a crisis in reality.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 08, 2021, 01:35:56 PM
Moving the goalposts, I see.
That's a mild case. Usually, Reckall just ignores the goalposts, runs to a completely different field, makes sure nobody's around, closes to within 2 feet of the goal, kicks the ball thru, and then tries to claim victory.

I admit that doing this, vs. simply claiming victory "because", is unpractical :D
It's good you admit you're behaving in such a shitty fashion.

It would be better if you just stopped acting like that.

It would be even better to see a real discussion going on. ::)
Yeah, that's the point. There's no way to have a real discussion when you keep ignoring what people say
Nope. Disagreeing with what people say =/= ignoring what people say.
That's a good example of ignoring what I said, because this particular discussion started because I pointed out that you replied to Kiero and claimed victory, but didn't address a single thing Kiero said.
Well, then, he covered everything important that Kiero said... Which was nothing.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Reckall on August 08, 2021, 01:40:15 PM
Moving the goalposts, I see.
That's a mild case. Usually, Reckall just ignores the goalposts, runs to a completely different field, makes sure nobody's around, closes to within 2 feet of the goal, kicks the ball thru, and then tries to claim victory.

I admit that doing this, vs. simply claiming victory "because", is unpractical :D
It's good you admit you're behaving in such a shitty fashion.

It would be better if you just stopped acting like that.

It would be even better to see a real discussion going on. ::)
Yeah, that's the point. There's no way to have a real discussion when you keep ignoring what people say
Nope. Disagreeing with what people say =/= ignoring what people say.
That's a good example of ignoring what I said, because this particular discussion started because I pointed out that you replied to Kiero and claimed victory, but didn't address a single thing Kiero said.

Because. I. Already. Did.

And you were so absorbed with the absolutely certainty of your narrative that you weren't even able to really challenge me via the most basic question: "Where?"

Then people wonder why they end up "shut down" in their attempts to "discuss"  ::)
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on August 08, 2021, 01:45:54 PM
I gave my opinion pro or against something - usually with links and even abstracts (*). When someone comes down screaming that I never tackled a certain topic I simply point out that I actually did. What should I do? Copy & Paste 20 times something because 20 people are too lazy to, you know, read the thread they are posting in?
I'll call this out as well, because it's an important concept.

The answer to your question?

Yes.

Yes, that's how we have discussions. Look at the main covid thread, I've repeated some of the same arguments many times. That's because it's unrealistic to expect new readers to be familiar with every last post, to know who posted what, or to follow every last volley of insults in case there was a relevant nugget of content, and then to synthesize all that in a reply to a throwaway assertion. Discussions are cumulative, but we also have to recognize the limitations of the medium, and discussion boards are more conversational than scholarly. We need to periodically summarize and restate.

But that isn't the real issue. The real issue is that most of the time, you don't even make your central thesis, and when people reply, you ignore their replies and post something else unrelated. Remember the time you posted something, and I had to infer that you were asking for an explanation for why the death rate in the US was higher than in many other countries? You never actually stated that. I had to guess what point you were trying to make based on a few statistical references. Many of your posts are like that. You don't make a point, you just post a bunch of links, or claim that people haven't refuted your claims, or simply claim victory, without making a clear argument.

And then what happened after I responded to your post? You didn't address any of the points I made, like how the US was a trade hub, or the high rate of obesity, or the large elderly population, or how some states did a terrible job protecting the elderly in congregate care hubs. You just ignored all that, and tried to dismiss my entire post on the basis of the governors I listed.

You do this all the time.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on August 08, 2021, 01:52:40 PM
(https://gunfreezone.net/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/6C92A77F-5E33-4EEF-817C-BDF5E128F121.png)

He deleted his account, of course, but the Wayback Machine saved a copy. http://web.archive.org/web/20210804173841/https://twitter.com/larsmcmurtry

But by all means, 'it's just conspiracy talk that we want people to be forced to take the vax!'.

After the first felony, the rest are free, you know.
So the guy has a posting style that's much like that of SHARK. Both make outlandish claims and encourage violence towards those that disagree with them. Both are repugnant, but that hardly creates a crisis in reality.

   Every fight, or episode of violence I ever saw, started with words.   
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on August 08, 2021, 02:00:09 PM
Moving the goalposts, I see.
That's a mild case. Usually, Reckall just ignores the goalposts, runs to a completely different field, makes sure nobody's around, closes to within 2 feet of the goal, kicks the ball thru, and then tries to claim victory.

I admit that doing this, vs. simply claiming victory "because", is unpractical :D
It's good you admit you're behaving in such a shitty fashion.

It would be better if you just stopped acting like that.

It would be even better to see a real discussion going on. ::)
Yeah, that's the point. There's no way to have a real discussion when you keep ignoring what people say
Nope. Disagreeing with what people say =/= ignoring what people say.
That's a good example of ignoring what I said, because this particular discussion started because I pointed out that you replied to Kiero and claimed victory, but didn't address a single thing Kiero said.

Because. I. Already. Did.

And you were so absorbed with the absolutely certainty of your narrative that you weren't even able to really challenge me via the most basic question: "Where?"

Then people wonder why they end up "shut down" in their attempts to "discuss"  ::)
Then why didn't you just state that?

Because this isn't even one of those cases where you vaguely stated that you answered the question somewhere else in the thread, and they should go off and find it. Now that's a shitty answer, and a defacto admission that you've lost the argument. But at least by saying it, you're acknowledging what the other person said. You didn't even do that. You just went off on something completely unrelated.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Eirikrautha on August 08, 2021, 02:05:49 PM
"Vaccines cause variants!"

Nope.

https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-delta-vaccine-idUSL1N2OW1TA

You disagree? Facts, please, not the sad, inane, internet hearsay spotlighted in these links - and that you are just regurgitating.

Reuters?  Try peer reviewed:
https://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.1002198

And the CDC:
https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021/s0730-mmwr-covid-19.html

The CDC has disclosed that the delta variant replicates more quickly in the nose than previous variants, meaning that it spreads through vaccinated hosts before the majority of the immune response (which mainly occurs in the lungs / CV system) is triggered.  Based on this, they admit (they head of the CDC said this on CNN) that the vaccines reduce the severity of Covid, but don't prevent infection.  Previous research has shown for other viruses : "Our data show that anti-disease vaccines that do not prevent transmission can create conditions that promote the emergence of pathogen strains that cause more severe disease in unvaccinated hosts."

So vaccines that allow reproduction and/or continued transmission may very well create new strains.  So you are wrong.
Those point to that being a threat to the unvaccinated. Being vaccinated is a way to reduce that theat.
So vaccination should just be a personal choice, based on each individual's own risk assessment?  Because a lot of people have told me that we have to mandate vaccination in order to prevent the development of new variants.  So you're saying that's not an issue at all for vaccinated people?
I'm saying that your source doesn't support the part of the discussion you're now trying to go with.
You'd be wrong (as usual).  Do vaccines that stop serious consequences from illness, but do not stop transmission of the virus, present a possible vector for viral variance?  I have posted a peer-reviewed article that says exactly that.

No, it doesn't, from the very title: "Imperfect Vaccination". No vaccine approved for emergency use by the FDA/EMA ever got the label "imperfect".

And what it says is that "Imperfect Vaccinations" can cause the vaccinated guy to be a possible vector for viral variances the way an unvaccinated guy is. However, we also saw - in the CDC link that you posted - how in our specific case only the Delta variant is a nasty little bugger for vaccinated people. Other variants are blocked by vaccines. Unvaccinated people get and distribute all the variants. The whole package.

The peer-reviewed refutation of what you posted are the very links you posted. Thank you for the effort.
OMG.  Imperfect is a description, not a formal label.  For a minute, I thought you might be capable of a direct debate.  But no; you are either too stupid to understand how to read correctly, or you are just deflecting any point you can't counter..  Because it is obvious that both you and Happyderp can't counter the information provided.  You can't even read it properly!  What a waste of time.  The only good thing is that anyone reading these threads can easily see you are arguing in bad faith with no support...
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 08, 2021, 02:12:05 PM
(https://gunfreezone.net/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/6C92A77F-5E33-4EEF-817C-BDF5E128F121.png)

He deleted his account, of course, but the Wayback Machine saved a copy. http://web.archive.org/web/20210804173841/https://twitter.com/larsmcmurtry

But by all means, 'it's just conspiracy talk that we want people to be forced to take the vax!'.

After the first felony, the rest are free, you know.
So the guy has a posting style that's much like that of SHARK. Both make outlandish claims and encourage violence towards those that disagree with them. Both are repugnant, but that hardly creates a crisis in reality.

   Every fight, or episode of violence I ever saw, started with words.
That doesn't mean words=violence. By all means condemn people that verbally encourage violence, but there is a huge divide between ugly words and ugly action.

On a side note, I have seen several violent encounters that did not involve exchanging words.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on August 08, 2021, 02:34:50 PM
(https://gunfreezone.net/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/6C92A77F-5E33-4EEF-817C-BDF5E128F121.png)

He deleted his account, of course, but the Wayback Machine saved a copy. http://web.archive.org/web/20210804173841/https://twitter.com/larsmcmurtry

But by all means, 'it's just conspiracy talk that we want people to be forced to take the vax!'.

After the first felony, the rest are free, you know.
So the guy has a posting style that's much like that of SHARK. Both make outlandish claims and encourage violence towards those that disagree with them. Both are repugnant, but that hardly creates a crisis in reality.

   Every fight, or episode of violence I ever saw, started with words.
That doesn't mean words=violence. By all means condemn people that verbally encourage violence, but there is a huge divide between ugly words and ugly action.

On a side note, I have seen several violent encounters that did not involve exchanging words.

   I agree, but I bet you have not seen any violent encounters that did not involve exchanging words.  It is a whole lot more likely you were not there when the words got exchanged (or in the case of the worst violence, some young guys kill each other for shit some old dudes said to one another) or full context was not there, long standing beef where words are sort of long gone.  Point remains, the words come first.  I think the internet and people being soft makes them a bit looser with the violence talk (never having tasted a good dose themselves, or risking getting their heads caved in for saying the wrong thing to the wrong person) and it sort of does just become talk.  The same people will call violence talk a death threat.  Here is where that old pic of spidermen pointing at one another become relevant IMO, one side or the other talked shit, got some back or accused someone of death threats, and now everyone complains about death threats or violent talk leading somewhere.   
   I will say this though, if I have some disagreement over something on a curb, and some dude then says he is going to do something to me involving violence, I will take him at his word.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 08, 2021, 02:52:36 PM
(https://gunfreezone.net/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/6C92A77F-5E33-4EEF-817C-BDF5E128F121.png)

He deleted his account, of course, but the Wayback Machine saved a copy. http://web.archive.org/web/20210804173841/https://twitter.com/larsmcmurtry

But by all means, 'it's just conspiracy talk that we want people to be forced to take the vax!'.

After the first felony, the rest are free, you know.
So the guy has a posting style that's much like that of SHARK. Both make outlandish claims and encourage violence towards those that disagree with them. Both are repugnant, but that hardly creates a crisis in reality.

   Every fight, or episode of violence I ever saw, started with words.
That doesn't mean words=violence. By all means condemn people that verbally encourage violence, but there is a huge divide between ugly words and ugly action.

On a side note, I have seen several violent encounters that did not involve exchanging words.

   I agree, but I bet you have not seen any violent encounters that did not involve exchanging words.  It is a whole lot more likely you were not there when the words got exchanged (or in the case of the worst violence, some young guys kill each other for shit some old dudes said to one another) or full context was not there, long standing beef where words are sort of long gone.  Point remains, the words come first.  I think the internet and people being soft makes them a bit looser with the violence talk (never having tasted a good dose themselves, or risking getting their heads caved in for saying the wrong thing to the wrong person) and it sort of does just become talk.  The same people will call violence talk a death threat.  Here is where that old pic of spidermen pointing at one another become relevant IMO, one side or the other talked shit, got some back or accused someone of death threats, and now everyone complains about death threats or violent talk leading somewhere.   
   I will say this though, if I have some disagreement over something on a curb, and some dude then says he is going to do something to me involving violence, I will take him at his word.
I've worked in corrections (first as a CO, later as a nurse) and in both acute and forensic psych settings. I have seen spontaneous violence without any words being exchanged. I will agree though, that with most people in their right minds, immediate violence without any talk is fairly unusual.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on August 08, 2021, 03:35:48 PM
(https://gunfreezone.net/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/6C92A77F-5E33-4EEF-817C-BDF5E128F121.png)

He deleted his account, of course, but the Wayback Machine saved a copy. http://web.archive.org/web/20210804173841/https://twitter.com/larsmcmurtry

But by all means, 'it's just conspiracy talk that we want people to be forced to take the vax!'.

After the first felony, the rest are free, you know.
So the guy has a posting style that's much like that of SHARK. Both make outlandish claims and encourage violence towards those that disagree with them. Both are repugnant, but that hardly creates a crisis in reality.

   Every fight, or episode of violence I ever saw, started with words.
That doesn't mean words=violence. By all means condemn people that verbally encourage violence, but there is a huge divide between ugly words and ugly action.

On a side note, I have seen several violent encounters that did not involve exchanging words.

   I agree, but I bet you have not seen any violent encounters that did not involve exchanging words.  It is a whole lot more likely you were not there when the words got exchanged (or in the case of the worst violence, some young guys kill each other for shit some old dudes said to one another) or full context was not there, long standing beef where words are sort of long gone.  Point remains, the words come first.  I think the internet and people being soft makes them a bit looser with the violence talk (never having tasted a good dose themselves, or risking getting their heads caved in for saying the wrong thing to the wrong person) and it sort of does just become talk.  The same people will call violence talk a death threat.  Here is where that old pic of spidermen pointing at one another become relevant IMO, one side or the other talked shit, got some back or accused someone of death threats, and now everyone complains about death threats or violent talk leading somewhere.   
   I will say this though, if I have some disagreement over something on a curb, and some dude then says he is going to do something to me involving violence, I will take him at his word.
I've worked in corrections (first as a CO, later as a nurse) and in both acute and forensic psych settings. I have seen spontaneous violence without any words being exchanged. I will agree though, that with most people in their right minds, immediate violence without any talk is fairly unusual.

  Well, had you said crazy people just fly off and start with violence, I would certainly agree.  My bad, I should have dug on that one. 
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 08, 2021, 03:38:15 PM
(https://gunfreezone.net/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/6C92A77F-5E33-4EEF-817C-BDF5E128F121.png)

He deleted his account, of course, but the Wayback Machine saved a copy. http://web.archive.org/web/20210804173841/https://twitter.com/larsmcmurtry

But by all means, 'it's just conspiracy talk that we want people to be forced to take the vax!'.

After the first felony, the rest are free, you know.
So the guy has a posting style that's much like that of SHARK. Both make outlandish claims and encourage violence towards those that disagree with them. Both are repugnant, but that hardly creates a crisis in reality.

   Every fight, or episode of violence I ever saw, started with words.
That doesn't mean words=violence. By all means condemn people that verbally encourage violence, but there is a huge divide between ugly words and ugly action.

On a side note, I have seen several violent encounters that did not involve exchanging words.

   I agree, but I bet you have not seen any violent encounters that did not involve exchanging words.  It is a whole lot more likely you were not there when the words got exchanged (or in the case of the worst violence, some young guys kill each other for shit some old dudes said to one another) or full context was not there, long standing beef where words are sort of long gone.  Point remains, the words come first.  I think the internet and people being soft makes them a bit looser with the violence talk (never having tasted a good dose themselves, or risking getting their heads caved in for saying the wrong thing to the wrong person) and it sort of does just become talk.  The same people will call violence talk a death threat.  Here is where that old pic of spidermen pointing at one another become relevant IMO, one side or the other talked shit, got some back or accused someone of death threats, and now everyone complains about death threats or violent talk leading somewhere.   
   I will say this though, if I have some disagreement over something on a curb, and some dude then says he is going to do something to me involving violence, I will take him at his word.
I've worked in corrections (first as a CO, later as a nurse) and in both acute and forensic psych settings. I have seen spontaneous violence without any words being exchanged. I will agree though, that with most people in their right minds, immediate violence without any talk is fairly unusual.

  Well, had you said crazy people just fly off and start with violence, I would certainly agree.  My bad, I should have dug on that one.
On this day, two people agreed on something on an internet forum!
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mordred Pendragon on August 08, 2021, 04:23:03 PM
America is dead and a corporatist Camelot is skin-riding its corpse.

Welcome to the New Dark Ages. We are like the last pagans of old Rome and now we're in for a future of misery, serfdom, neo-feudalism, and moralist theocracy.

Except this time the fiefdoms are cities instead of rural manors and the theocracy is Marxist/Intersectional Leftist instead of Abrahamic.

The large private corporations are de facto above the law in this country and do all the dirty work of the government.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ghostmaker on August 08, 2021, 04:45:58 PM
America is dead and a corporatist Camelot is skin-riding its corpse.

Welcome to the New Dark Ages. We are like the last pagans of old Rome and now we're in for a future of misery, serfdom, neo-feudalism, and moralist theocracy.

Except this time the fiefdoms are cities instead of rural manors and the theocracy is Marxist/Intersectional Leftist instead of Abrahamic.

The large private corporations are de facto above the law in this country and do all the dirty work of the government.
But hey, no more mean tweets right?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mordred Pendragon on August 08, 2021, 04:51:56 PM
America is dead and a corporatist Camelot is skin-riding its corpse.

Welcome to the New Dark Ages. We are like the last pagans of old Rome and now we're in for a future of misery, serfdom, neo-feudalism, and moralist theocracy.

Except this time the fiefdoms are cities instead of rural manors and the theocracy is Marxist/Intersectional Leftist instead of Abrahamic.

The large private corporations are de facto above the law in this country and do all the dirty work of the government.
But hey, no more mean tweets right?

Is there any way one can fight the corporate elites without doing things that could send someone to prison? There has to be some way to fight back legally.

Even Trump was unable to drain the swamp.

It didn't help that his administration was rife with snakes hiding in the grass, the neocons like Bill Barr and puritans like Mike Pence.

The only one who was fully clean was Mike Flynn and the corporate elites made sure to crucify him in a sham trial. Giuliani was clean too, and the media led him down a rabbithole to neutralize him in a more indirect way
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Shasarak on August 08, 2021, 05:03:46 PM
So, the Spanish Flu came from Spain? Just askin'.

Its called the Spanish Flu because the Spanish were the only ones talking about it, so therefore "Spanish" Flu

Exactly. As neutral they weren't subjected to war censorship and so they were the first to talk about it - especially after their King Alphonse XIII got sick and almost died.

So, since we obsess with precise geographic terms like "Wuhan Flu" or "Kung Flu" it is only fair towards Spain to rename the 1918-1919 pandemic "Kansas Flu" or "AmeriFlu". I'm confident that other posters will see the justice and appropriateness of fixing this historical misunderstanding.

I think it only fair that the place that created the Wuhan Chinese Flu gets to name it.

Why are you wanting to take their credit away from them?

What do you have against China?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Shasarak on August 08, 2021, 05:19:09 PM
You actually believe that nonsense? Keep eating the anti-vaxxer cookies dumbass, but puking up the misinformation is wrong...and cowardly.

Good luck with all your sick "fully vaccinated" patients a few weeks from now. You're going to need it.
Let's see if you're as bad at predicting the future as your Pillow Prophet.

When the hospitals get over run again then your going to need those pillows.  I mean it has to be this month, or next month for sure this time.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Spinachcat on August 08, 2021, 05:33:58 PM
The demand for violence and domination by the vax clowns is a net positive because for many people, it reaffirms our decision to avoid this experimental jab by any means necessary.

And since no long term studies were done on the Chyna vax, nobody knows WTF is going to occur long term. Lots of conjecture on either side, often by "experts", but our very imperfect understanding of the human body is why you never develop drugs at "warp speed".

I am beyond caring anymore. If the vax kills off the vaxxed, so be it. If the next Fauci-funded bioweapon kills off the unvaxxed, so be it.


Is there any way one can fight the corporate elites without doing things that could send someone to prison?

Corporate elites? Stop buying their shit.

Wanna boycott Coke? Here's more than 500 brands they own.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Coca-Cola_brands (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Coca-Cola_brands)

Of course, the boycott will only work if MANY millions of people join you, and only if those people were previously regular customers. AKA, me joining the "boycot" of the NBA/NFL/MBA isn't meaningful since I was never a sports fan.

But even after all the censorship of sane people on social media by Big Tech, we still haven't seen a boom in alt-media. They exist and some are growing (mostly slowly), but most conservatives remained on Facebook and Twitter even after the purges.

As for cutting the political purse strings, there's no way to slow down DC because they've learned how to just print money and use IRS goons to scare and crush taxpayers.


There has to be some way to fight back legally.

Not for long.

You can't vote your way out of any authoritarian state because they will simply change the laws that worked for you.

Last week, the CDC extended the eviction moratorium. That's impossible. Totally illegal as ONLY the legislature can make laws, and that was recently affirmed recently by the Supreme Court against the CDC, but it doesn't matter anymore.

As Maxine Waters tweeted with a laugh, who is going to stop them?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Spinachcat on August 08, 2021, 05:39:20 PM
When the hospitals get over run again then your going to need those pillows.  I mean it has to be this month, or next month for sure this time.

Just like how the word "vaccine" no longer has its real definition, the concept of "hospitals being overrun" has been redefined to having one whiny patient on the floor who disrupts TikTok dance practice.

Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on August 08, 2021, 05:51:52 PM
 Yeah, those motherfuckers REALLY oversold that hospitals over run bullshit.  The moratorium for most medical operations of an "elective" nature is going to make fixing my torn pectoral a whole ton of fun (since it was torn in late march of last year, and there was no way to get surgery before late summer), and since rehab can only do so much, I guess I get to find out how creative they can be putting it back together again.  I should also mention my mother not making regular appointments with her specialist due to everyone being encouraged rather strongly to avoid medical contact that was not urgent likely lead to her death.   

   So at this point, I have about had all I am going to tolerate with people telling me how dangerous I am to others...without deciding maybe I need to be dangerous to others.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 08, 2021, 05:53:56 PM
When the hospitals get over run again then your going to need those pillows.  I mean it has to be this month, or next month for sure this time.

Just like how the word "vaccine" no longer has its real definition, the concept of "hospitals being overrun" has been redefined to having one whiny patient on the floor who disrupts TikTok dance practice.
No hospital that I'm aware of uses the term overrun for being over capacity, they only use that term for budgets. But you probably think hospitals exceeding operating capacity is a myth too.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Shasarak on August 08, 2021, 05:56:31 PM
So what horrible *actions* have they taken? Not interested in your interpretation of what they want or what they think, I just want a link to what reprehensible actions they've taken.

Your government is already locking kids up in cages.  Not reprehensible enough?

(https://i1.wp.com/defconnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/Image-1c-Kids-in-Cages-Border-Town.jpg)
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 08, 2021, 05:59:19 PM
Yeah, those motherfuckers REALLY oversold that hospitals over run bullshit.  The moratorium for most medical operations of an "elective" nature is going to make fixing my torn pectoral a whole ton of fun (since it was torn in late march of last year, and there was no way to get surgery before late summer), and since rehab can only do so much, I guess I get to find out how creative they can be putting it back together again.  I should also mention my mother not making regular appointments with her specialist due to everyone being encouraged rather strongly to avoid medical contact that was not urgent likely lead to her death.   

   So at this point, I have about had all I am going to tolerate with people telling me how dangerous I am to others...without deciding maybe I need to be dangerous to others.
Are you saying that you live in an area where they blocked out elective procedures for over a full year (almost 1.5 years)? Even here in Florida, the operational status black only lasted a few weeks the first time (and then restarted a week ago). Lots of elective & outpatient procedures were done in the many months between, with ORs extending hours when possible to accommodate backlogs.

Either way, sorry to hear about your injury.

I'd suggest that you talk with your mom about the possibility that she use tele health visits if possible (depending on the specialty).

As for deciding you need to be dangerous to others, just cut out the internet toughguy bullshit; it's totally pointless.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 08, 2021, 06:01:54 PM
So what horrible *actions* have they taken? Not interested in your interpretation of what they want or what they think, I just want a link to what reprehensible actions they've taken.

Your government is already locking kids up in cages.  Not reprehensible enough?

(https://i1.wp.com/defconnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/Image-1c-Kids-in-Cages-Border-Town.jpg)
I doubt that picture is going to get all that much sympathy from the ultra-conservatives that tend to hover about this board. But how do you feel about those kids in cages?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on August 08, 2021, 06:07:49 PM
Yeah, those motherfuckers REALLY oversold that hospitals over run bullshit.  The moratorium for most medical operations of an "elective" nature is going to make fixing my torn pectoral a whole ton of fun (since it was torn in late march of last year, and there was no way to get surgery before late summer), and since rehab can only do so much, I guess I get to find out how creative they can be putting it back together again.  I should also mention my mother not making regular appointments with her specialist due to everyone being encouraged rather strongly to avoid medical contact that was not urgent likely lead to her death.   

   So at this point, I have about had all I am going to tolerate with people telling me how dangerous I am to others...without deciding maybe I need to be dangerous to others.
Are you saying that you live in an area where they blocked out elective procedures for over a full year (almost 1.5 years)? Even here in Floroda, the operational status black only lasted a few weeks the first time (and then restarted a week ago). Lots of elective & outpatient procedures were done in the many months between, with ORs extending hours when possible to accommodate backlogs.

Either way, sorry to hear about your injury.

As for deciding you need to be dangerous to others, just cut out the internet toughguy bullshit; it's totally pointless.

  Did you not read what I said?  It was cut from march till late summer.  With a pec tear, you have 30 days essentially to get it fixed for best results.  Once I had gone a couple of months, rehab is surgery can be avoided is the best choice,  it is severe enough that rehab is not going to take.  Right now I am hoping when I get it done it wont be a case of a tendon retracted, otherwise I get to see how creative the surgeon can get using a tendon from by hamstring or the like to fix it.

  As for internet toughguy, you do not know me or a thing about me.   I am not simply talking to sound tough.   I am stating if people decide to make rules that make me feel a little too pushed upon, I will 100 percent react.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 08, 2021, 06:11:51 PM
Yeah, those motherfuckers REALLY oversold that hospitals over run bullshit.  The moratorium for most medical operations of an "elective" nature is going to make fixing my torn pectoral a whole ton of fun (since it was torn in late march of last year, and there was no way to get surgery before late summer), and since rehab can only do so much, I guess I get to find out how creative they can be putting it back together again.  I should also mention my mother not making regular appointments with her specialist due to everyone being encouraged rather strongly to avoid medical contact that was not urgent likely lead to her death.   

   So at this point, I have about had all I am going to tolerate with people telling me how dangerous I am to others...without deciding maybe I need to be dangerous to others.
Are you saying that you live in an area where they blocked out elective procedures for over a full year (almost 1.5 years)? Even here in Floroda, the operational status black only lasted a few weeks the first time (and then restarted a week ago). Lots of elective & outpatient procedures were done in the many months between, with ORs extending hours when possible to accommodate backlogs.

Either way, sorry to hear about your injury.

As for deciding you need to be dangerous to others, just cut out the internet toughguy bullshit; it's totally pointless.

  Did you not read what I said?  It was cut from march till late summer.  With a pec tear, you have 30 days essentially to get it fixed for best results.  Once I had gone a couple of months, rehab is surgery can be avoided is the best choice,  it is severe enough that rehab is not going to take.  Right now I am hoping when I get it done it wont be a case of a tendon retracted, otherwise I get to see how creative the surgeon can get using a tendon from by hamstring or the like to fix it.

  As for internet toughguy, you do not know me or a thing about me.   I am not simply talking to sound tough.   I am stating if people decide to make rules that make me feel a little too pushed upon, I will 100 percent react.
If your tear was severe enough, you should have had your surgeon push for an exemption. I don't know where you are, but in the USA, most locations still had the option of pushing procedures up so they could bypass the hold. Did you try this?

And as for the rest...

If you're not just talking, then what ya gonna do, bitch?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on August 08, 2021, 06:18:43 PM
Yeah, those motherfuckers REALLY oversold that hospitals over run bullshit.  The moratorium for most medical operations of an "elective" nature is going to make fixing my torn pectoral a whole ton of fun (since it was torn in late march of last year, and there was no way to get surgery before late summer), and since rehab can only do so much, I guess I get to find out how creative they can be putting it back together again.  I should also mention my mother not making regular appointments with her specialist due to everyone being encouraged rather strongly to avoid medical contact that was not urgent likely lead to her death.   

   So at this point, I have about had all I am going to tolerate with people telling me how dangerous I am to others...without deciding maybe I need to be dangerous to others.
Are you saying that you live in an area where they blocked out elective procedures for over a full year (almost 1.5 years)? Even here in Floroda, the operational status black only lasted a few weeks the first time (and then restarted a week ago). Lots of elective & outpatient procedures were done in the many months between, with ORs extending hours when possible to accommodate backlogs.

Either way, sorry to hear about your injury.

As for deciding you need to be dangerous to others, just cut out the internet toughguy bullshit; it's totally pointless.

  Did you not read what I said?  It was cut from march till late summer.  With a pec tear, you have 30 days essentially to get it fixed for best results.  Once I had gone a couple of months, rehab is surgery can be avoided is the best choice,  it is severe enough that rehab is not going to take.  Right now I am hoping when I get it done it wont be a case of a tendon retracted, otherwise I get to see how creative the surgeon can get using a tendon from by hamstring or the like to fix it.

  As for internet toughguy, you do not know me or a thing about me.   I am not simply talking to sound tough.   I am stating if people decide to make rules that make me feel a little too pushed upon, I will 100 percent react.
If your tear was severe enough, you should have had your surgeon push for an exemption. I don't know where you are, but in the USA, most locations still had the option of pushing procedures up so they could bypass the hold. Did you try this?

And as for the rest...

If you're not just talking, then what ya gonna do, bitch?

    The tear was severe, but not a full detachment.  It was a 2, and at the time given I was avoiding exposure to anything "unnecessary" (because of the mother, who, well died anyway) I went with an attempt at rehab.  It was a pretty serious 2, so there is no rehab on that sucker. 

   What would you have me do?  Hurt people for talking about trying to make people do things?  I can hurt people anytime the mood hits me (which it does not, as I am not crazy) even with busted wing.  It would take more for me to rationalize serious damage, but it sure does look like there is always more coming.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 08, 2021, 06:22:48 PM
Yeah, those motherfuckers REALLY oversold that hospitals over run bullshit.  The moratorium for most medical operations of an "elective" nature is going to make fixing my torn pectoral a whole ton of fun (since it was torn in late march of last year, and there was no way to get surgery before late summer), and since rehab can only do so much, I guess I get to find out how creative they can be putting it back together again.  I should also mention my mother not making regular appointments with her specialist due to everyone being encouraged rather strongly to avoid medical contact that was not urgent likely lead to her death.   

   So at this point, I have about had all I am going to tolerate with people telling me how dangerous I am to others...without deciding maybe I need to be dangerous to others.
Are you saying that you live in an area where they blocked out elective procedures for over a full year (almost 1.5 years)? Even here in Floroda, the operational status black only lasted a few weeks the first time (and then restarted a week ago). Lots of elective & outpatient procedures were done in the many months between, with ORs extending hours when possible to accommodate backlogs.

Either way, sorry to hear about your injury.

As for deciding you need to be dangerous to others, just cut out the internet toughguy bullshit; it's totally pointless.

  Did you not read what I said?  It was cut from march till late summer.  With a pec tear, you have 30 days essentially to get it fixed for best results.  Once I had gone a couple of months, rehab is surgery can be avoided is the best choice,  it is severe enough that rehab is not going to take.  Right now I am hoping when I get it done it wont be a case of a tendon retracted, otherwise I get to see how creative the surgeon can get using a tendon from by hamstring or the like to fix it.

  As for internet toughguy, you do not know me or a thing about me.   I am not simply talking to sound tough.   I am stating if people decide to make rules that make me feel a little too pushed upon, I will 100 percent react.
If your tear was severe enough, you should have had your surgeon push for an exemption. I don't know where you are, but in the USA, most locations still had the option of pushing procedures up so they could bypass the hold. Did you try this?

And as for the rest...

If you're not just talking, then what ya gonna do, bitch?

    The tear was severe, but not a full detachment.  It was a 2, and at the time given I was avoiding exposure to anything "unnecessary" (because of the mother, who, well died anyway) I went with an attempt at rehab.  It was a pretty serious 2, so there is no rehab on that sucker. 

   What would you have me do?  Hurt people for talking about trying to make people do things?  I can hurt people anytime the mood hits me (which it does not, as I am not crazy) even with busted wing.  It would take more for me to rationalize serious damage, but it sure does look like there is always more coming.
No, I wouldn't have you use violence. That's exactly my point. Better to not even threaten/suggest violence, because it does nothing positive for this kind of situation. It's also totally silly to suggest violence on an internet board where it comes off as a roar of impotence.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Shasarak on August 08, 2021, 06:24:52 PM
So what horrible *actions* have they taken? Not interested in your interpretation of what they want or what they think, I just want a link to what reprehensible actions they've taken.

Your government is already locking kids up in cages.  Not reprehensible enough?

(https://i1.wp.com/defconnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/Image-1c-Kids-in-Cages-Border-Town.jpg)
I doubt that picture is going to get all that much sympathy from the ultra-conservatives that tend to hover about this board. But how do you feel about those kids in cages?

You dont think the government locking kids in cages is reprehensible then?

Maybe they deserved it?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Spinachcat on August 08, 2021, 06:30:56 PM
But you probably think hospitals exceeding operating capacity is a myth too.

"Exceeding operating capacity" would involve full parking lots.

Like when that happened when my dad was in ICU in 2018 and they were shuffling patients between floors and nearby hospitals who had empty beds because of the sudden huge influx of patients. Parking lots were full, especially the staff lot.

Sorry bitch, your shamdemic is done. All you got left are the retarded sheep.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 08, 2021, 06:31:43 PM
So what horrible *actions* have they taken? Not interested in your interpretation of what they want or what they think, I just want a link to what reprehensible actions they've taken.

Your government is already locking kids up in cages.  Not reprehensible enough?

(https://i1.wp.com/defconnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/Image-1c-Kids-in-Cages-Border-Town.jpg)
I doubt that picture is going to get all that much sympathy from the ultra-conservatives that tend to hover about this board. But how do you feel about those kids in cages?

You dont think the government locking kids in cages is reprehensible then?

Maybe they deserved it?
Is that how you feel, that they deserved it?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 08, 2021, 06:34:32 PM
But you probably think hospitals exceeding operating capacity is a myth too.

"Exceeding operating capacity" would involve full parking lots.

Like when that happened when my dad was in ICU in 2018 and they were shuffling patients between floors and nearby hospitals who had empty beds because of the sudden huge influx of patients. Parking lots were full, especially the staff lot.

Sorry bitch, your shamdemic is done. All you got left are the retarded sheep.
Operational capacity is not based on parking lots. Moreover, when non-essentual services (including admin) are not present, and visitors are not allowed, the parking lots are going to look far less busy than on a normal day despite a much higher concentration of clinical personnel.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on August 08, 2021, 06:41:14 PM
Yeah, those motherfuckers REALLY oversold that hospitals over run bullshit.  The moratorium for most medical operations of an "elective" nature is going to make fixing my torn pectoral a whole ton of fun (since it was torn in late march of last year, and there was no way to get surgery before late summer), and since rehab can only do so much, I guess I get to find out how creative they can be putting it back together again.  I should also mention my mother not making regular appointments with her specialist due to everyone being encouraged rather strongly to avoid medical contact that was not urgent likely lead to her death.   

   So at this point, I have about had all I am going to tolerate with people telling me how dangerous I am to others...without deciding maybe I need to be dangerous to others.
Are you saying that you live in an area where they blocked out elective procedures for over a full year (almost 1.5 years)? Even here in Floroda, the operational status black only lasted a few weeks the first time (and then restarted a week ago). Lots of elective & outpatient procedures were done in the many months between, with ORs extending hours when possible to accommodate backlogs.

Either way, sorry to hear about your injury.

As for deciding you need to be dangerous to others, just cut out the internet toughguy bullshit; it's totally pointless.

  Did you not read what I said?  It was cut from march till late summer.  With a pec tear, you have 30 days essentially to get it fixed for best results.  Once I had gone a couple of months, rehab is surgery can be avoided is the best choice,  it is severe enough that rehab is not going to take.  Right now I am hoping when I get it done it wont be a case of a tendon retracted, otherwise I get to see how creative the surgeon can get using a tendon from by hamstring or the like to fix it.

  As for internet toughguy, you do not know me or a thing about me.   I am not simply talking to sound tough.   I am stating if people decide to make rules that make me feel a little too pushed upon, I will 100 percent react.
If your tear was severe enough, you should have had your surgeon push for an exemption. I don't know where you are, but in the USA, most locations still had the option of pushing procedures up so they could bypass the hold. Did you try this?

And as for the rest...

If you're not just talking, then what ya gonna do, bitch?

    The tear was severe, but not a full detachment.  It was a 2, and at the time given I was avoiding exposure to anything "unnecessary" (because of the mother, who, well died anyway) I went with an attempt at rehab.  It was a pretty serious 2, so there is no rehab on that sucker. 

   What would you have me do?  Hurt people for talking about trying to make people do things?  I can hurt people anytime the mood hits me (which it does not, as I am not crazy) even with busted wing.  It would take more for me to rationalize serious damage, but it sure does look like there is always more coming.
No, I wouldn't have you use violence. That's exactly my point. Better to not even threaten/suggest violence, because it does nothing positive for this kind of situation. It's also totally silly to suggest violence on an internet board where it comes off as a roar of impotence.

  I am not looking to come off any particular way.  I am not threatening.  I am just stating fact regarding if A goes on, well B is coming.  It is the primary reason my current plan, as to what I prefer to do, is move out of the country.  I rather not be pissed with people who are for the most part faceless and that I can not put my arm around their neck.   If there is a roar, I would suggest frustration, coming from a person a little fed up with destruction of small business (which I ran), having a parent die due to some of the mixed messaging, and who has kids who have to grow up with some retarded trash coming from people who are supposed to be leaders.   That said, I am sure talk is in fact quite cheap on the internet.  I however, never say anything I do not mean on the internet, or in a way I would not say to a person in conversation. 
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Spinachcat on August 08, 2021, 06:42:10 PM
You dont think the government locking kids in cages is reprehensible then?

NO.

This is an invading army and the kids are weapons. Demographic replacement is real and 1M (or more) useless 3rd worlders are being shovelled into our nation this year alone since we no longer have a southern border.

Also, separating the adults from the kids was necessary even when we had a border because of the number of human traffickers AND the number of minors who were raped by coyotes and fellow illegals.

Nobody likes to talk about it, but lots of those burritos are going to become sex slaves in US cities.

Maybe they deserved it?

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

Unfortunately, the kids always suffer because of the parents' bad choices.

But incentivizing illegal immigration always results in more harm.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Shasarak on August 08, 2021, 06:45:43 PM
So what horrible *actions* have they taken? Not interested in your interpretation of what they want or what they think, I just want a link to what reprehensible actions they've taken.

Your government is already locking kids up in cages.  Not reprehensible enough?

(https://i1.wp.com/defconnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/Image-1c-Kids-in-Cages-Border-Town.jpg)
I doubt that picture is going to get all that much sympathy from the ultra-conservatives that tend to hover about this board. But how do you feel about those kids in cages?

You dont think the government locking kids in cages is reprehensible then?

Maybe they deserved it?
Is that how you feel, that they deserved it?

I guess living in Florida just spoils you in regards to not seeing governmental abuse.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 08, 2021, 06:48:43 PM
So what horrible *actions* have they taken? Not interested in your interpretation of what they want or what they think, I just want a link to what reprehensible actions they've taken.

Your government is already locking kids up in cages.  Not reprehensible enough?

(https://i1.wp.com/defconnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/Image-1c-Kids-in-Cages-Border-Town.jpg)
I doubt that picture is going to get all that much sympathy from the ultra-conservatives that tend to hover about this board. But how do you feel about those kids in cages?

You dont think the government locking kids in cages is reprehensible then?

Maybe they deserved it?
Is that how you feel, that they deserved it?

I guess living in Florida just spoils you in regards to not seeing governmental abuse.
What makes you think it's any different from your situation?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Spinachcat on August 08, 2021, 06:50:37 PM
Operational capacity is not based on parking lots. Moreover, when non-essentual services (including admin) are not present, and visitors are not allowed, the parking lots are going to look far less busy than on a normal day despite a much higher concentration of clinical personnel.

LOL. This is so cute!

The hospital is FULL of Corona patients! More are flooding in every hour! The dead are piling up!!! But...where are the lines of ambulances? How is the ER quiet? Where are the parking lots full of nurses and doctors needed to take care of this flood of patients that's crushing the ICU? Why does the lots look like the night shift crew are the only ones there?

The gig is up. Nobody except the sheep buys your Corona shit anymore.

Oh noes, here comes the "delta plus" variant!!! Maybe that will work?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 08, 2021, 06:53:10 PM
Operational capacity is not based on parking lots. Moreover, when non-essentual services (including admin) are not present, and visitors are not allowed, the parking lots are going to look far less busy than on a normal day despite a much higher concentration of clinical personnel.

LOL. This is so cute!

The hospital is FULL of Corona patients! More are flooding in every hour! The dead are piling up!!! But...where are the lines of ambulances? How is the ER quiet? Where are the parking lots full of nurses and doctors needed to take care of this flood of patients that's crushing the ICU? Why does the lots look like the night shift crew are the only ones there?

The gig is up. Nobody except the sheep buys your Corona shit anymore.

Oh noes, here comes the "delta plus" variant!!! Maybe that will work?
Dumbass, I just explained that the parking lots likely look like night shift because, much like with night shift, non-essential personnel are not there.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on August 08, 2021, 06:53:53 PM
Operational capacity is not based on parking lots. Moreover, when non-essentual services (including admin) are not present, and visitors are not allowed, the parking lots are going to look far less busy than on a normal day despite a much higher concentration of clinical personnel.

LOL. This is so cute!

The hospital is FULL of Corona patients! More are flooding in every hour! The dead are piling up!!! But...where are the lines of ambulances? How is the ER quiet? Where are the parking lots full of nurses and doctors needed to take care of this flood of patients that's crushing the ICU? Why does the lots look like the night shift crew are the only ones there?

The gig is up. Nobody except the sheep buys your Corona shit anymore.

Oh noes, here comes the "delta plus" variant!!! Maybe that will work?

   Seems like a good time to release Captain Tripps and go ahead and get it all over with.   A lethal pandemic at this point would do far more damage than it could have a couple years ago, since "leaders" have fucked themselves over at every turn with regard to having any credibility at all.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 08, 2021, 07:39:53 PM
Operational capacity is not based on parking lots. Moreover, when non-essentual services (including admin) are not present, and visitors are not allowed, the parking lots are going to look far less busy than on a normal day despite a much higher concentration of clinical personnel.

LOL. This is so cute!

The hospital is FULL of Corona patients! More are flooding in every hour! The dead are piling up!!! But...where are the lines of ambulances? How is the ER quiet? Where are the parking lots full of nurses and doctors needed to take care of this flood of patients that's crushing the ICU? Why does the lots look like the night shift crew are the only ones there?

The gig is up. Nobody except the sheep buys your Corona shit anymore.

Oh noes, here comes the "delta plus" variant!!! Maybe that will work?

   Seems like a good time to release Captain Tripps and go ahead and get it all over with.   A lethal pandemic at this point would do far more damage than it could have a couple years ago, since "leaders" have fucked themselves over at every turn with regard to having any credibility at all.
That credibility didn't just evaporate on its own.. Let's not forget to credit the numerous conspiracy theorists that the internet has allowed to thrive.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Shasarak on August 08, 2021, 07:44:41 PM
What makes you think it's any different from your situation?

My Government is merely incompetent rather then reprehensible.

I mean not pants shitting dementia incompetent but you know.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on August 08, 2021, 08:51:13 PM
Operational capacity is not based on parking lots. Moreover, when non-essentual services (including admin) are not present, and visitors are not allowed, the parking lots are going to look far less busy than on a normal day despite a much higher concentration of clinical personnel.

LOL. This is so cute!

The hospital is FULL of Corona patients! More are flooding in every hour! The dead are piling up!!! But...where are the lines of ambulances? How is the ER quiet? Where are the parking lots full of nurses and doctors needed to take care of this flood of patients that's crushing the ICU? Why does the lots look like the night shift crew are the only ones there?

The gig is up. Nobody except the sheep buys your Corona shit anymore.

Oh noes, here comes the "delta plus" variant!!! Maybe that will work?

   Seems like a good time to release Captain Tripps and go ahead and get it all over with.   A lethal pandemic at this point would do far more damage than it could have a couple years ago, since "leaders" have fucked themselves over at every turn with regard to having any credibility at all.
That credibility didn't just evaporate on its own.. Let's not forget to credit the numerous conspiracy theorists that the internet has allowed to thrive.

      Yeah, it was the internet.  That was what did it.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on August 08, 2021, 09:43:12 PM
That credibility didn't just evaporate on its own.. Let's not forget to credit the numerous conspiracy theorists that the internet has allowed to thrive.
It wasn't things like representatives of the government claiming they didn't fund gain of function at the Wuhan lab when they did?

Good to know.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Eirikrautha on August 08, 2021, 09:54:32 PM
Operational capacity is not based on parking lots. Moreover, when non-essentual services (including admin) are not present, and visitors are not allowed, the parking lots are going to look far less busy than on a normal day despite a much higher concentration of clinical personnel.

LOL. This is so cute!

The hospital is FULL of Corona patients! More are flooding in every hour! The dead are piling up!!! But...where are the lines of ambulances? How is the ER quiet? Where are the parking lots full of nurses and doctors needed to take care of this flood of patients that's crushing the ICU? Why does the lots look like the night shift crew are the only ones there?

The gig is up. Nobody except the sheep buys your Corona shit anymore.

Oh noes, here comes the "delta plus" variant!!! Maybe that will work?

   Seems like a good time to release Captain Tripps and go ahead and get it all over with.   A lethal pandemic at this point would do far more damage than it could have a couple years ago, since "leaders" have fucked themselves over at every turn with regard to having any credibility at all.
That credibility didn't just evaporate on its own.. Let's not forget to credit the numerous conspiracy theorists that the internet has allowed to thrive.

      Yeah, it was the internet.  That was what did it.
Of course.  It's not like the "experts" first said that masking wasn't needed for normal people.  Then told us that we'd only need to lock-down for 15 days to flatten the curve.  Then decided that we did need masks, even outdoors.  Then told us that there were no therapeutics that could work, despite the fact that other medical professionals disagreed.  Then told us that vaccines were developed that would return life to normal, if we'd only get them immediately, with no passports (that would be too totalitarian).  Then told us that after vaccination, we wouldn't need masks.  Then told us that, even after getting vaccinated, we'd have to wear masks.  Oh, and the vaccines didn't prevent illness, just lessened it.  Oh, and we might need to lockdown again.  And show our proof of vaccine in order to do anything.

And, most importantly, they said all of the above with the certainty of the Pope, and silenced anyone who disagreed with them.  If you dared suggest the virus might have been a lab leak, you were silenced on every platform.  Until, a year ago, when suddenly it was possible it was a lab leak.  The sheer certainty of every pronouncement, followed by the same certainty when the next one contradicts the first.  If the "experts" had have talked in terms of uncertainty, what they knew, guessed, and didn't know, maybe people would react differently.  But there was never a "we think this, but we could be wrong.  We don't know that."  It was "This is what you need to do or you'll kill us all!  Now do the opposite, or you'll kill us all!"  Yeah, but it was internet conspiracies that destroyed the credibility of the "experts"...
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: FelixGamingX1 on August 08, 2021, 11:08:21 PM
When does the pandemic end?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Shasarak on August 09, 2021, 12:04:40 AM
When does the pandemic end?

The real pandemic was the friends we made along the way.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: GeekyBugle on August 09, 2021, 12:45:15 AM
T.L;D.R : Hypothesis > Tests (if proven correct then) > Law > Theory

Or put in math terms: Theory > Law > Hypothesis
1 > 0
0 < 1
Can't both be correct.

Maybe because they aren't the same?

Which is why I say to put it in math terms?

First I'm stating in which order things occur

Then I'm stating which thing is greater than which other thing.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mordred Pendragon on August 09, 2021, 01:04:53 AM
When does the pandemic end?

It will never end.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ghostmaker on August 09, 2021, 06:50:08 AM
"The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary." --H.L. Mencken
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 09, 2021, 07:02:47 AM
When does the pandemic end?

It will never end.
It will end on a Tuesday. Still not sure which Tuesday.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Zelen on August 09, 2021, 10:52:24 AM
When does the pandemic end?

The only off-ramp leads to Sweden, but the people in the driver's seat keep doubling down on ineffective bullshit because they're so deep in it they can't admit they destroyed the world economy and ruined billions of lives making things worse.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: GeekyBugle on August 09, 2021, 12:12:31 PM
I wonder why more and more people don't trust the corporate media and the sophisticated elites on anything.

Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ghostmaker on August 09, 2021, 12:12:43 PM
Just remember, you proles need to mask up, while your noble betters get to party.

Serfdom ahoy, but hey, no more mean tweets, right?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Reckall on August 09, 2021, 12:22:29 PM
When does the pandemic end?

Today I spoke with a friend that is a Chief Nurse in one of the most important hospitals here in Milan.

Please, take the following as hearsay.

All started when I told her that my dentist has the third shot already booked. She told me that she, too, has her third shot already booked. This September the managers will reveal the precise date, but the third shot for doctors and nurses is a sure thing.

They are already planning the fourth shot. This is not a sure thing, but they want to have plans already in place should a fourth shot become necessary.

Lessons learned thus far: the World's economy cannot sustain anymore damage to the most profitable months: June-August and December. There always will be reopenings, the Covid cases will climb, if dangerous variants appear --> new shot.

Most of the bigwigs (in her hospital, to be clear) agree that this "dance" will go on until 2025. We will get out of the woods, and maybe sooner, but not this year or next year.

Communication from the top has been terrible in her hospital - even worse with the public. Yet, if people have enough and stop listening it will be a disaster, but if this happens only the "experts in communications" will be the ones to blame.

She finally cheered me up by confirming that her Covid ward is already filling again. Since she did a "three months" tour of duty, internal rules mandate that she is to be assigned elsewhere for at least nine months. There are already rumbles that these rules will not be respected.

Again, to be clear, these are the words of my friend. I paraphrased a bit but this is what she said.

As soon as I can I'll call my distant cousin in Florida. She is a bigwig, even if in another field. I wonder what she will have to say.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 09, 2021, 12:41:45 PM
When does the pandemic end?

Today I spoke with a friend that is a Chief Nurse in one of the most important hospitals here in Milan.

Please, take the following as hearsay.

All started when I told her that my dentist has the third shot already booked. She told me that she, too, has her third shot already booked. This September the managers will reveal the precise date, but the third shot for doctors and nurses is a sure thing.

They are already planning the fourth shot. This is not a sure thing, but they want to have plans already in place should a fourth shot become necessary.

Lessons learned thus far: the World's economy cannot sustain anymore damage to the most profitable months: June-August and December. There always will be reopenings, the Covid cases will climb, if dangerous variants appear --> new shot.

Most of the bigwigs (in her hospital, to be clear) agree that this "dance" will go on until 2025. We will get out of the woods, and maybe sooner, but not this year or next year.

Communication from the top has been terrible in her hospital - even worse with the public. Yet, if people have enough and stop listening it will be a disaster, but if this happens only the "experts in communications" will be the ones to blame.

She finally cheered me up by confirming that her Covid ward is already filling again. Since she did a "three months" tour of duty, internal rules mandate that she is to be assigned elsewhere for at least nine months. There are already rumbles that these rules will not be respected.

Again, to be clear, these are the words of my friend. I paraphrased a bit but this is what she said.

As soon as I can I'll call my distant cousin in Florida. She is a bigwig, even if in another field. I wonder what she will have to say.
Interesting to hear that they plan on rotating personnel that work on Covid wards. Also interesting to hear that she believes it won't happen. Around here, there's no plans to rotate personnel (excepting travelers, but those are mostly funneled into the least desirable units in exchange for big pay). The rotating out plans don't work because anyone that's facing being rotated in just resigns and takes a higher-paying travel gig (more $ for the same shit) and so they don't push them to rotate. Besides that, the time to retrain personnel for PCU & ICU level bedside when they've been working in things like OR, pediatrics, or OB isn't worth it.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: GeekyBugle on August 09, 2021, 03:07:15 PM
Well, at least you're not the UK

Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on August 09, 2021, 03:08:27 PM
When does the pandemic end?

It will never end.
It will end on a Tuesday. Still not sure which Tuesday.

   Doubtful, Friday is always the best day for a firing.  Gives the pandemic the weekend to cool off. 
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 09, 2021, 03:37:29 PM
When does the pandemic end?

It will never end.
It will end on a Tuesday. Still not sure which Tuesday.

   Doubtful, Friday is always the best day for a firing.  Gives the pandemic the weekend to cool off.
Fake news! It was/will be Tuesday forever!
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on August 09, 2021, 03:58:48 PM
But you probably think hospitals exceeding operating capacity is a myth too.

It certainly was in the UK since they stopped doing everything else bar "treating" covid. Even though many hospitals spent months sitting idle doing nothing at all.

We now have a backlog of 14 million people waiting for treatment thanks to months of doing fuck all.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on August 09, 2021, 04:40:03 PM
Whoops, Israel is one of the most vaccinated countries in the world, infections are raging out of control: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/cdc-israel-covid-risk-b1899691.html

If only they had access to cheap, safe, generic treatments which brought infection under control in India...
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on August 09, 2021, 04:54:45 PM
Lessons learned thus far: the World's economy cannot sustain anymore damage to the most profitable months: June-August and December. There always will be reopenings, the Covid cases will climb, if dangerous variants appear --> new shot.
I imagine that's even worse in Italy, since you haven't recovered from 2008. The US economy has problems, but is in a much stronger position.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 09, 2021, 05:22:21 PM
But you probably think hospitals exceeding operating capacity is a myth too.

It certainly was in the UK since they stopped doing everything else bar "treating" covid. Even though many hospitals spent months sitting idle doing nothing at all.

We now have a backlog of 14 million people waiting for treatment thanks to months of doing fuck all.
Do you have an article that discusses the UK's Covid response (as objectively as possible)? Serious question; I'm not fucking with you this time.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Reckall on August 09, 2021, 05:40:03 PM
Lessons learned thus far: the World's economy cannot sustain anymore damage to the most profitable months: June-August and December. There always will be reopenings, the Covid cases will climb, if dangerous variants appear --> new shot.
I imagine that's even worse in Italy, since you haven't recovered from 2008. The US economy has problems, but is in a much stronger position.

According to a friend of mine who manages private investments for a big bank, the Covid is a blessing in disguise because the measures taken by the EU will, as a side effect, delay the reckoning with our national debt. I was unable to follow his reasoning because my understanding of economy has always been sketchy. Factually, my generation should be the last still in the clear but the next one is basically fucked.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Shasarak on August 09, 2021, 05:43:19 PM
But you probably think hospitals exceeding operating capacity is a myth too.

It certainly was in the UK since they stopped doing everything else bar "treating" covid. Even though many hospitals spent months sitting idle doing nothing at all.

We now have a backlog of 14 million people waiting for treatment thanks to months of doing fuck all.
Do you have an article that discusses the UK's Covid response (as objectively as possible)? Serious question; I'm not fucking with you this time.

(https://filmsdeconstructed.files.wordpress.com/2018/12/charlie-brown-lucy-moves-the-football-again.png)
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: DocJones on August 09, 2021, 06:20:19 PM
For you to be able to offend me I would need to care about your opinion, I don't, you're just another NPC.
It's great that we agree that neithet of us give a shit about what the other thinks. Well now, that's one thing we got.
What about Breakfast at Tiffany's?
=)
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on August 09, 2021, 07:51:19 PM
Lessons learned thus far: the World's economy cannot sustain anymore damage to the most profitable months: June-August and December. There always will be reopenings, the Covid cases will climb, if dangerous variants appear --> new shot.
I imagine that's even worse in Italy, since you haven't recovered from 2008. The US economy has problems, but is in a much stronger position.

According to a friend of mine who manages private investments for a big bank, the Covid is a blessing in disguise because the measures taken by the EU will, as a side effect, delay the reckoning with our national debt. I was unable to follow his reasoning because my understanding of economy has always been sketchy. Factually, my generation should be the last still in the clear but the next one is basically fucked.
I haven't really been following the EU's monetary policy, but I can probably guess the basic reason. In the US, the Fed has been doing everything it can to keep interest rates low. Ostensibly, this is to help the economy and lower the unemployment rate via Keynesian magic, but at this point the real reason might as well be to keep the cost of servicing the national debt low. The US is paying about half a trillion dollars in interest a year on $28 trillion in debt, but that's only because interest rates are close to zero. If interest rate ever rose back to normal, the interest payments could easily eclipse the entire federal budget. Italy has a pretty spectacular debt, so they have the same concern. But while the US prints money to buy up assets, and that continual pump of money into the capital sector is what keeps interest rates low, Italy doesn't have that option. The US is a monetary sovereign, and can print all the money they want. But Italy gave up that power to the EU, when they adopted the Euro. So anything that encourages the EU to keep interest rates low benefits Italy and helps stave off the debt crisis, because it keeps the service costs on Italy's national debt manageable. There are probably some subtleties I'm missing, but that should be the basic outline.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Zelen on August 09, 2021, 08:33:28 PM
"Look guys, in order to sustain bio-surveillance tyranny and enrich tech & pharmaceutical billionaires keep yourself safe you are going to have to get five shots (https://humansarefree.com/2021/08/five-vaccine-doses-to-qualify-as-fully-vaccinated.html)."
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ratman_tf on August 09, 2021, 09:08:01 PM
"Look guys, in order to sustain bio-surveillance tyranny and enrich tech & pharmaceutical billionaires keep yourself safe you are going to have to get five shots (https://humansarefree.com/2021/08/five-vaccine-doses-to-qualify-as-fully-vaccinated.html)."

 ;D I'm waiting until IV drips of the vaccines are mandatory.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: GriswaldTerrastone on August 09, 2021, 10:05:40 PM
Another factor is this: when the polio and measles vaccines came out decades ago there was an entirely different mindset. Yes those companies were out to make money, but they also did want to help people along the way. This is why those vaccines were effective: they were tested thoroughly and were made as safe as possible back then.

But now? The media, which is like one endless Big Pharma infomercial, hypes up the danger from this disease- yes it is dangerous but look up how many people were dying of "regular" flu, how many die from prescription drugs, and how many die in hospitals due to negligence- and ask yourself what if any of that had been given as much non-stop attention from media and government?- then sells people on vaccines that were rushed out, did not even get proper FDA approval (for what that's worth these days); the only absolutely sure vaccination seems to be that people cannot sue the drug companies no matter what happens- gee, THAT sure makes one confident about it all, doesn't it?

What's more, how many of these vaccines are made overseas? No problem there, right?

Years ago, on a site called "Return of Kings," someone commented that with the way our government is now if ever anything serious ever happens they will prove to be incompetent to say the least- and he was right. The way this mess was handled was disgraceful.

But a more chilling aspect is obvious: many people get this vaccine because they want government and the like off their backs. They want things to return to "normal," or at least as normal as it can be in this inverted society. They will be told this isn't going to happen because of those people who aren't vaccinated. Guess what happens then?

I'm also tired of the prattle about "herd immunity." This can only occur if you have sufficient numbers of immune individuals, but the way they are talking this vaccine is like bulletproof armor that doesn't work if the guy next to you isn't wearing any. This disease will ALWAYS be around according to the "experts" and such, so what good is a vaccine if it does not simply protect YOU?

Did you ever wonder why junk mail wasn't stopped for a time? If this disease was as contagious as they had originally said then one good way to block its spread was by blocking junk mail. I've worked these kind of jobs and trust me- they do NOT follow sanitary procedures.     

But the main thing is how mentalities have changed. The fact that "Brave New World" is not so shocking as it was even when I was young, and the outright greed of the corporations behind the vaccines, have only shown how far down Western society has fallen. It is very depressing.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: FelixGamingX1 on August 09, 2021, 10:27:56 PM
I’m not too concerned about how many booster shots people will need to take. If anything, the new tech could even help fight off cancerous cells or whatever they program into it. Enough people already took it to deem it safe. I’m just curious on why and how long it will take for full approval.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: GriswaldTerrastone on August 09, 2021, 10:44:07 PM
It is impossible at this point to say it is safe- there simply has been no time to determine any long-range problems, or even how long it's good for.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Zelen on August 09, 2021, 11:35:20 PM
Pfizer's study that was supposed to be 6 months was actually only 4 months, since at the 4 month mark in both the vaccinated & placebo cohort they offloaded about 90% of the trial participants. Detailed analysis (https://junkcharts.typepad.com/numbersruleyourworld/2021/08/how-to-count-the-fare-after-letting-most-passengers-leave-the-train.html).

Safety data that we have on the vaccines is already incredibly poor due to high censorship environment and little-to-no interest by drug manufacturers in actually figuring out why tens of thousands of people have died. Moderna alone has over 300,000 reports of vaccine injury that it's failed to report to VAERS. There is no safety data for additional shots, or for mix-and-match vax approaches that many people are now suggesting. It's actually criminal to suggest unproven approaches with extremely high rate of negative reaction compared to well-known and well-tolerated existing drugs.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Zelen on August 09, 2021, 11:45:46 PM
del
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: FelixGamingX1 on August 10, 2021, 07:55:19 AM
There is no safety data for additional shots, or for mix-and-match

I know the term emergency use, may sound like a leap of faith into the unknown. However, pointing out to ‘junkcharts’ as if it was a credible source of data is where the argument loses credibility. As for mixing vaxs, I remember hearing that. Not something I’d personally want to try.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on August 10, 2021, 08:19:54 AM
However, pointing out to ‘junkcharts’ as if it was a credible source of data is where the argument loses credibility.
Do you have any actual argument against their credibility, or are you just latching onto the quirky name of the blog in an attempt to discredit something you don't like?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on August 10, 2021, 08:22:27 AM
I’m not too concerned about how many booster shots people will need to take. If anything, the new tech could even help fight off cancerous cells or whatever they program into it. Enough people already took it to deem it safe. I’m just curious on why and how long it will take for full approval.

   My wife works in clinical trial research... what you say about enough people is simply not how safety is determined.   There has been no study on long term effects.   It could be safe (as safe as vaccines can be) or it could have long term issues.  Seems we are now getting some odd signals from media and powers that be that the vaccinated can act as super spreaders.   Strange that people vaccinated for polio are never, ever spreading it around.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ghostmaker on August 10, 2021, 08:48:31 AM
For you to be able to offend me I would need to care about your opinion, I don't, you're just another NPC.
It's great that we agree that neithet of us give a shit about what the other thinks. Well now, that's one thing we got.
What about Breakfast at Tiffany's?
=)
Hey I think I remember that film! :)
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Zelen on August 10, 2021, 10:37:04 AM
There is no safety data for additional shots, or for mix-and-match

I know the term emergency use, may sound like a leap of faith into the unknown. However, pointing out to ‘junkcharts’ as if it was a credible source of data is where the argument loses credibility. As for mixing vaxs, I remember hearing that. Not something I’d personally want to try.

All of the data is directly from Pfizer. The author of the blog is Kaiser Fung (http://www.kaiserfung.com/about), which should be obvious from the books he prominently displays. His analysis isn't even drawing any conclusions, just critiquing the study and the messiness of the data. But you're right, why would you listen to a statistical expert when analyzing statistical data.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: FelixGamingX1 on August 10, 2021, 10:48:06 AM
I’m not too concerned about how many booster shots people will need to take. If anything, the new tech could even help fight off cancerous cells or whatever they program into it. Enough people already took it to deem it safe. I’m just curious on why and how long it will take for full approval.

   My wife works in clinical trial research... what you say about enough people is simply not how safety is determined.   There has been no study on long term effects.   It could be safe (as safe as vaccines can be) or it could have long term issues.  Seems we are now getting some odd signals from media and powers that be that the vaccinated can act as super spreaders.   Strange that people vaccinated for polio are never, ever spreading it around.

You know the vaccine supposedly doesn’t contain the actual virus, right? I’m no expert in the way these new vax are manufactured but unlike Covid, the odds of serious complications are at the bare minimum. Like, you really gotta hit the unlucky lottery. Still, your body your choice. Do what you feel comfortable with. The fact 50% of the nation is already vaccinated aught speak for itself.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: FelixGamingX1 on August 10, 2021, 10:51:45 AM
There is no safety data for additional shots, or for mix-and-match

I know the term emergency use, may sound like a leap of faith into the unknown. However, pointing out to ‘junkcharts’ as if it was a credible source of data is where the argument loses credibility. As for mixing vaxs, I remember hearing that. Not something I’d personally want to try.

All of the data is directly from Pfizer. The author of the blog is Kaiser Fung (http://www.kaiserfung.com/about), which should be obvious from the books he prominently displays. His analysis isn't even drawing any conclusions, just critiquing the study and the messiness of the data. But you're right, why would you listen to a statistical expert when analyzing statistical data.

The word ‘expert’ aught be reevaluated during this day and time. I listen to everyone then make my own conclusions. Expert, is being thrown around as lightly as game designer on rpggeek. If everyone is, than expertise isn’t a thing but a state of mind.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on August 10, 2021, 11:02:15 AM
There is no safety data for additional shots, or for mix-and-match

I know the term emergency use, may sound like a leap of faith into the unknown. However, pointing out to ‘junkcharts’ as if it was a credible source of data is where the argument loses credibility. As for mixing vaxs, I remember hearing that. Not something I’d personally want to try.

All of the data is directly from Pfizer. The author of the blog is Kaiser Fung (http://www.kaiserfung.com/about), which should be obvious from the books he prominently displays. His analysis isn't even drawing any conclusions, just critiquing the study and the messiness of the data. But you're right, why would you listen to a statistical expert when analyzing statistical data.

The word ‘expert’ aught be reevaluated during this day and time. I listen to everyone then make my own conclusions. Expert, is being thrown around as lightly as game designer on rpggeek. If everyone is, than expertise isn’t a thing but a state of mind.
He has advanced degrees from Ivy League schools, has held leadership positions in multiple businesses, has written books, speaks at conferences, teaches at Columbia and NYU, and all of those are directly related to the subject he's addressing in the blog.

At least that answers my question from earlier. You've decided what you believe, and you're looking for anything to discredit anyone who says anything that contradicts your preexisting beliefs, even if your objections make no sense whatsoever.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: FelixGamingX1 on August 10, 2021, 11:23:50 AM
There is no safety data for additional shots, or for mix-and-match

I know the term emergency use, may sound like a leap of faith into the unknown. However, pointing out to ‘junkcharts’ as if it was a credible source of data is where the argument loses credibility. As for mixing vaxs, I remember hearing that. Not something I’d personally want to try.

All of the data is directly from Pfizer. The author of the blog is Kaiser Fung (http://www.kaiserfung.com/about), which should be obvious from the books he prominently displays. His analysis isn't even drawing any conclusions, just critiquing the study and the messiness of the data. But you're right, why would you listen to a statistical expert when analyzing statistical data.

The word ‘expert’ aught be reevaluated during this day and time. I listen to everyone then make my own conclusions. Expert, is being thrown around as lightly as game designer on rpggeek. If everyone is, than expertise isn’t a thing but a state of mind.

At least that answers my question from earlier. You've decided what you believe, and you're looking for anything to discredit anyone who says anything that contradicts your preexisting beliefs, even if your objections make no sense whatsoever.

Hmm, no. What I’m doing is questioning the facts. E.g. I’ve stated 50% of the US populace are now fully vaccinated, according to the public data. That’s easy to confirm by doing a simple google search. Now, some of the counter arguments I’ve received are mostly pointing to shoddy sources. I’d much rather listen to actual science, not experts.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: KingCheops on August 10, 2021, 11:54:46 AM
As for mixing vaxs, I remember hearing that. Not something I’d personally want to try.

You get no choice where I am.  If you go they jab you with what you have and when they invite you back for round 2 they just jab you with whatever else is at hand.

The government took less than a month to make this decision based on "studies" that were not linked in the article at the state news website.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ratman_tf on August 10, 2021, 12:44:05 PM
I’m not too concerned about how many booster shots people will need to take. If anything, the new tech could even help fight off cancerous cells or whatever they program into it. Enough people already took it to deem it safe. I’m just curious on why and how long it will take for full approval.

   My wife works in clinical trial research... what you say about enough people is simply not how safety is determined.   There has been no study on long term effects.   It could be safe (as safe as vaccines can be) or it could have long term issues.  Seems we are now getting some odd signals from media and powers that be that the vaccinated can act as super spreaders.   Strange that people vaccinated for polio are never, ever spreading it around.

You know the vaccine supposedly doesn’t contain the actual virus, right? I’m no expert in the way these new vax are manufactured but unlike Covid, the odds of serious complications are at the bare minimum. Like, you really gotta hit the unlucky lottery. Still, your body your choice. Do what you feel comfortable with. The fact 50% of the nation is already vaccinated aught speak for itself.

I'm not following you. What does 50% of the nation being vaccinated speak of?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Zelen on August 10, 2021, 12:48:30 PM
Hmm, no. What I’m doing is questioning the facts. E.g. I’ve stated 50% of the US populace are now fully vaccinated, according to the public data. That’s easy to confirm by doing a simple google search. Now, some of the counter arguments I’ve received are mostly pointing to shoddy sources. I’d much rather listen to actual science, not experts.

I'd be curious to hear how you feel that your behavior constitutes questioning facts.

Pfizer data is a primary data set on safety and efficacy. The point of analyzing this data set demonstrates that the data that Pfizer is using to support its claims (e.g. safe and effective) is actually quite shoddy.

Percentage of the population receiving a vaccination tells literally nothing about safety or efficacy, because there is no one tracking that data.

What do you think "actual science" is?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: FelixGamingX1 on August 10, 2021, 01:32:13 PM
Hmm, no. What I’m doing is questioning the facts. E.g. I’ve stated 50% of the US populace are now fully vaccinated, according to the public data. That’s easy to confirm by doing a simple google search. Now, some of the counter arguments I’ve received are mostly pointing to shoddy sources. I’d much rather listen to actual science, not experts.

Percentage of the population receiving a vaccination tells literally nothing about safety or efficacy, because there is no one tracking that data.


Comments like these… Fake News!
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Zelen on August 10, 2021, 01:57:25 PM
Comments like these… Fake News!

Nothing I've seen suggests there's any kind of systematic effort to track adverse events or vaccine efficacy over ~150 million people. If you want to dispute the claim, then you're free to provide some evidence.

[Ed.] To avoid veering off into non-sequitur land, lets bring it back to the original issue.

The Pfizer data is the highest quality trial data that we have on long-term efficacy and safety. There is no better data set, so we naturally should analyze that data and scrutinize the methodology and conclusions drawn from it.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on August 10, 2021, 02:55:28 PM
I’m not too concerned about how many booster shots people will need to take. If anything, the new tech could even help fight off cancerous cells or whatever they program into it. Enough people already took it to deem it safe. I’m just curious on why and how long it will take for full approval.

   My wife works in clinical trial research... what you say about enough people is simply not how safety is determined.   There has been no study on long term effects.   It could be safe (as safe as vaccines can be) or it could have long term issues.  Seems we are now getting some odd signals from media and powers that be that the vaccinated can act as super spreaders.   Strange that people vaccinated for polio are never, ever spreading it around.

You know the vaccine supposedly doesn’t contain the actual virus, right? I’m no expert in the way these new vax are manufactured but unlike Covid, the odds of serious complications are at the bare minimum. Like, you really gotta hit the unlucky lottery. Still, your body your choice. Do what you feel comfortable with. The fact 50% of the nation is already vaccinated aught speak for itself.

  Oh it speaks for itself.   I think you have completely missed understanding what I said as well.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ratman_tf on August 10, 2021, 03:51:08 PM
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/coronavirus-antibodies-detected-us-wild-deer-180978366/

"Researchers are concerned with infections occurring in the wild because of the virus's ability to mutate and jump from one species to another, which could create a reservoir for the virus to mutate and infect humans, the New York Times reports."
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Shasarak on August 10, 2021, 04:40:06 PM
At least that answers my question from earlier. You've decided what you believe, and you're looking for anything to discredit anyone who says anything that contradicts your preexisting beliefs, even if your objections make no sense whatsoever.

Pat you have met people before, right?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Zelen on August 10, 2021, 05:20:19 PM
One of the more concerning things that I've started hearing about is that at least some hospitals in California are instructing staff to refuse to provide appropriate care for unvaccinated patients. A variety of interventions such as vitamins C&D, monoclonal antibodies, et al, can assist patients who are already infected & suffering severe symptoms. Such a policy would of course be highly relevant to contextualizing data about hospitalizations, ICU & deaths, particularly given that the overall numbers we're now seeing are so small.

For example, Oregon misclassified 5 deaths among fully vaccinated people as belonging to "unvaccinated" during the past month, which was a doubling in the number of vaccinated deaths, and ~18% of the total monthly figure. There is a very perverse set of incentives at play such that pressure being applied to provide a lower standard of care to even a few patients makes a big difference in the media-driven fear machine.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: GriswaldTerrastone on August 10, 2021, 09:41:01 PM
Interesting news story- someone (vaccinated) went to a party, a total of fourteen people- all vaccinated, up-to-date, etc.

Eleven of those people ended up with Covid-19. Do the math.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Zelen on August 10, 2021, 10:30:54 PM
Interesting news story- someone (vaccinated) went to a party, a total of fourteen people- all vaccinated, up-to-date, etc.

Eleven of those people ended up with Covid-19. Do the math.

I've heard of this one, but it's a bit old if this is the AZ party with healthcare workers. More pertinent was the cruise ship with all vaccinated staff & passengers suffering an outbreak.

Zooming out a bit further, the focus on "infections" generally is pointless. The immune system isn't purposed to keep you from ever having pathogens in your body. The media likes this metric since it justifies endless fear-porn, but we've seen a substantial decoupling of "infections" from deaths over the past year. It'd be nice if we could get more sober analysis

Interestingly enough, the decoupling itself isn't solely (as commonly suggested) due to prevalence of vaccines since the decoupling effect occurred before widespread vaccination (>10% in some cases). It's not really clear what the mechanisms at play are, although we can guess that it's a mixture of survivorship, prior infection, and seasonal effects.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 11, 2021, 04:48:51 AM
One of the more concerning things that I've started hearing about is that at least some hospitals in California are instructing staff to refuse to provide appropriate care for unvaccinated patients. A variety of interventions such as vitamins C&D, monoclonal antibodies, et al, can assist patients who are already infected & suffering severe symptoms. Such a policy would of course be highly relevant to contextualizing data about hospitalizations, ICU & deaths, particularly given that the overall numbers we're now seeing are so small.

For example, Oregon misclassified 5 deaths among fully vaccinated people as belonging to "unvaccinated" during the past month, which was a doubling in the number of vaccinated deaths, and ~18% of the total monthly figure. There is a very perverse set of incentives at play such that pressure being applied to provide a lower standard of care to even a few patients makes a big difference in the media-driven fear machine.
Can you provide a reliable source on your "California doctors & nurses instructed to withhold care for unvaccinated" rumor, or are you just talking out of your ass?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: GeekyBugle on August 11, 2021, 11:03:24 AM
One of the more concerning things that I've started hearing about is that at least some hospitals in California are instructing staff to refuse to provide appropriate care for unvaccinated patients. A variety of interventions such as vitamins C&D, monoclonal antibodies, et al, can assist patients who are already infected & suffering severe symptoms. Such a policy would of course be highly relevant to contextualizing data about hospitalizations, ICU & deaths, particularly given that the overall numbers we're now seeing are so small.

For example, Oregon misclassified 5 deaths among fully vaccinated people as belonging to "unvaccinated" during the past month, which was a doubling in the number of vaccinated deaths, and ~18% of the total monthly figure. There is a very perverse set of incentives at play such that pressure being applied to provide a lower standard of care to even a few patients makes a big difference in the media-driven fear machine.
Can you provide a reliable source on your "California doctors & nurses instructed to withhold care for unvaccinated" rumor, or are you just talking out of your ass?

Well, you see, he could but you haven't the security clearance, so like with your BS unsubstantiated claims you'll just have to trust him.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ghostmaker on August 11, 2021, 11:12:49 AM
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/global-covid-19/shielding-approach-humanitarian.html

What the FUCK.

"What is the Shielding Approach?
The shielding approach aims to reduce the number of severe COVID-19 cases by limiting contact between individuals at higher risk of developing severe disease (“high-risk”) and the general population (“low-risk”). High-risk individuals would be temporarily relocated to safe or “green zones” established at the household, neighborhood, camp/sector or community level depending on the context and setting. They would have minimal contact with family members and other low-risk residents.

Current evidence indicates that older adults and people of any age who have serious underlying medical conditions are at higher risk for severe illness from COVID-19. In most humanitarian settings, older population groups make up a small percentage of the total population. For this reason, the shielding approach suggests physically separating high-risk individuals from the general population to prioritize the use of the limited available resources and avoid implementing long-term containment measures among the general population.

In theory, shielding may serve its objective to protect high-risk populations from disease and death. However, implementation of the approach necessitates strict adherence to protocol. Inadvertent introduction of the virus into a green zone may result in rapid transmission among the most vulnerable populations the approach is trying to protect.

A summary of the shielding approach described by Favas is shown in Table 1. See Guidance for the prevention of COVID-19 infections among high-risk individuals in low-resource, displaced and camp and camp-like settings, for full details."

What the fuck is this? Are we going to relitigate Korematsu and the Japanese internment all over again, except with 'vulnerable persons'?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: GeekyBugle on August 11, 2021, 11:43:17 AM
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/global-covid-19/shielding-approach-humanitarian.html

What the FUCK.

"What is the Shielding Approach?
The shielding approach aims to reduce the number of severe COVID-19 cases by limiting contact between individuals at higher risk of developing severe disease (“high-risk”) and the general population (“low-risk”). High-risk individuals would be temporarily relocated to safe or “green zones” established at the household, neighborhood, camp/sector or community level depending on the context and setting. They would have minimal contact with family members and other low-risk residents.

Current evidence indicates that older adults and people of any age who have serious underlying medical conditions are at higher risk for severe illness from COVID-19. In most humanitarian settings, older population groups make up a small percentage of the total population. For this reason, the shielding approach suggests physically separating high-risk individuals from the general population to prioritize the use of the limited available resources and avoid implementing long-term containment measures among the general population.

In theory, shielding may serve its objective to protect high-risk populations from disease and death. However, implementation of the approach necessitates strict adherence to protocol. Inadvertent introduction of the virus into a green zone may result in rapid transmission among the most vulnerable populations the approach is trying to protect.

A summary of the shielding approach described by Favas is shown in Table 1. See Guidance for the prevention of COVID-19 infections among high-risk individuals in low-resource, displaced and camp and camp-like settings, for full details."

What the fuck is this? Are we going to relitigate Korematsu and the Japanese internment all over again, except with 'vulnerable persons'?

Wait, are they really saying this approach is HUMANITARIAN?

Fucking concentration camps are now humanitarian?

Dude the USA is seriously fucked if assholes in the government can publish this and not get summarily fired and barred from ever working in the government or running for office.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on August 11, 2021, 11:54:17 AM
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/global-covid-19/shielding-approach-humanitarian.html

What the FUCK.

"What is the Shielding Approach?
The general theory is quite reasonable. One of the biggest factors in different death rates between different states and nations is whether covid-19 spread unchecked among nursing homes, or whether they managed to keep it out. Especially since the high risk population is so easily identifiable -- primarily the elderly, but secondarily the obese -- why not try to protect them?

I was arguing more than a year ago that we should be focusing on things like doubling the pay of nursing home staff in exchange for staying at work for weeks at a stretch, and to have some kind of isolation or disinfection procedure for new arrivals, including supplies. The idea is to limit the chance for outside sources to infect the protected population, instead of having people and supplies coming and going every day. The operational considerations section in the CDC document is similar in concept.

But the point I was making was to do do that, and let everyone else, from business to schools, go about their normal business. No general lockdowns, no mask mandates, none of that. The basic idea is to quarantine the people at risk and protect them from the general population, instead of the crazy backwards approach of quarantining the whole population to protect the smaller high risk groups.

One side effect is the disease would spread among those who were most likely to survive, i.e. the general population, allowing the development of herd immunity, and eventually allowing the restrictions on the high risk groups to be taken down.

But we didn't follow that path. Instead, there were massive lockdowns and other restrictions on the general population, including low risk groups like most workers and schoolchildren. This slowed transmission, and slowed the development of herd immunity. And rather than protecting the most at risk, a number of countries (and 5 states) moved sick patients from hospitals into nursing homes, out of a largely unwarranted concern that the hospitals systems would soon be overwhelmed. This caused covid-19 to spread among the groups we should have been protecting, and ended up killing a lot of people. Public health completely failed to protect the most vulnerable.

But I think it's important to note that any such restrictions should be voluntary. Even if coercion can be justified in keeping the sick away from the general population, it can't be justified when it comes to people who aren't sick but are simply at higher risk. And it should have been short-term, because it's not a viable long-term strategy. More than 18 months in, the dreadful social, psychological, and even physical effects of isolating people from their loved ones, or even normal human contact, is more apparent than ever.

The camps in the document you're referencing sound as creepy as hell, but that's based on what's not said, rather than what is said. Are they going to force people into these camps? I can't tell. They don't even mention consent, or any of the obvious considerations like messaging or the role of law enforcement. The whole document seems very poorly developed. They're checking some of the usual boxes that appear in every disaster plan, but it doesn't gel into something coherent. The overarching goal or plan is unclear, and a lot of basic considerations aren't even mentioned.

Honestly, the document should have never been published. It's a mess.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: FelixGamingX1 on August 11, 2021, 12:39:51 PM

What the FUCK.

"What is the Shielding Approach?
The general theory is quite reasonable.

For a Resident Evil game, yes. Another reason why people need to stop treating Covid as the mere cold. If you go on YouTube, you’ll see healthy young survivors begging people to take the vax, wear masks, etc. End of the day ain’t nobody making fun of mask wearers, and if they do, who cares!? I’ve got a sweet American flag gaiter that supposedly only protects me 35% and that’s fine for me. This pandemic is being driven by reckless human behavior! The virus needs a host, don’t be the host = end of pandemic.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on August 11, 2021, 12:52:18 PM

What the FUCK.

"What is the Shielding Approach?
The general theory is quite reasonable.

For a Resident Evil game, yes. Another reason why people need to stop treating Covid as the mere cold. If you go on YouTube, you’ll see healthy young survivors begging people to take the vax, wear masks, etc. End of the day ain’t nobody making fun of mask wearers, and if they do, who cares!? I’ve got a sweet American flag gaiter that supposedly only protects me 35% and that’s fine for me. This pandemic is being driven by reckless human behavior! The virus needs a host, don’t be the host = end of pandemic.

   I think most treat it as if it were the flu, and since the flu is more deadly to people under 25, that seem appropriate with regard to whether kids in school should be mandated wearing a mask.  Strange we NEVER cared enough about the health of kids to make everyone wear masks during flu season, but now we are extremely concerned and kids must mask up to attend school.   if people want to be actually protected out in the world, wear a respirator or a gas mask.  otherwise you are just jerking off.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Zelen on August 11, 2021, 04:08:34 PM
Can you provide a reliable source on your "California doctors & nurses instructed to withhold care for unvaccinated" rumor, or are you just talking out of your ass?

I wasn't trying to present that as anything more than a rumor, but it's definitely something I will keep an eye on. It squares pretty readily with testimonial from an associate of mine as a nurse in California, ongoing attempts to hype vaccination & drive up resentment towards unvaccinated folks.

Even if true, I doubt there's an official memo reading: "NOTICE of CRIMINAL INTENT," so it comes down to a he-said, she-said anyway.

Dude the USA is seriously fucked if assholes in the government can publish this and not get summarily fired and barred from ever working in the government or running for office.

Yes we are. Canada already has camps set up, FWIW, complete with cheerful "VAX MAKES YOU FREE" signage on the fences.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ratman_tf on August 11, 2021, 05:15:54 PM

What the FUCK.

"What is the Shielding Approach?
The general theory is quite reasonable.

For a Resident Evil game, yes. Another reason why people need to stop treating Covid as the mere cold. If you go on YouTube, you’ll see healthy young survivors begging people to take the vax, wear masks, etc. End of the day ain’t nobody making fun of mask wearers, and if they do, who cares!? I’ve got a sweet American flag gaiter that supposedly only protects me 35% and that’s fine for me. This pandemic is being driven by reckless human behavior! The virus needs a host, don’t be the host = end of pandemic.

How do you "not be a host"? Become a robot person?

The party line now is that vaccines only prevent harm, they do not prevent spread. And masking does not protect you, it's supposed to protect others.
Jesus, at least get the propoganda straight!

https://www.rollcall.com/2021/07/30/cdc-report-shows-vaccinated-people-can-spread-covid-19/

https://www.who.int/emergencies/diseases/novel-coronavirus-2019/advice-for-public/when-and-how-to-use-masks?gclid=Cj0KCQjw6s2IBhCnARIsAP8RfAiLZJ40pjTsysfhapHeMhhTUbTuhKfuIPFkZWKZiLO_BSRx0-Y7wWoaAh_LEALw_wcB

Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Shasarak on August 11, 2021, 05:29:57 PM
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/global-covid-19/shielding-approach-humanitarian.html

What the FUCK.

"What is the Shielding Approach?
The shielding approach aims to reduce the number of severe COVID-19 cases by limiting contact between individuals at higher risk of developing severe disease (“high-risk”) and the general population (“low-risk”). High-risk individuals would be temporarily relocated to safe or “green zones” established at the household, neighborhood, camp/sector or community level depending on the context and setting. They would have minimal contact with family members and other low-risk residents.

Current evidence indicates that older adults and people of any age who have serious underlying medical conditions are at higher risk for severe illness from COVID-19. In most humanitarian settings, older population groups make up a small percentage of the total population. For this reason, the shielding approach suggests physically separating high-risk individuals from the general population to prioritize the use of the limited available resources and avoid implementing long-term containment measures among the general population.

In theory, shielding may serve its objective to protect high-risk populations from disease and death. However, implementation of the approach necessitates strict adherence to protocol. Inadvertent introduction of the virus into a green zone may result in rapid transmission among the most vulnerable populations the approach is trying to protect.

A summary of the shielding approach described by Favas is shown in Table 1. See Guidance for the prevention of COVID-19 infections among high-risk individuals in low-resource, displaced and camp and camp-like settings, for full details."

What the fuck is this? Are we going to relitigate Korematsu and the Japanese internment all over again, except with 'vulnerable persons'?

Keeping high risk individuals safe seems like a much smarter idea then say locking down everyone.

For example Viva Frei has an interesting video about how the elderly in Canada were essentially abandoned and died not from the Wuhan China virus but from neglect.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on August 11, 2021, 06:57:20 PM
Keeping high risk individuals safe seems like a much smarter idea then say locking down everyone.

For example Viva Frei has an interesting video about how the elderly in Canada were essentially abandoned and died not from the Wuhan China virus but from neglect.
Ireland did something similar. It's been months, but NPR ran a bit where they talked about how elderly were supposed to stay home ("cocoon"), and how the communities got together to bring them meals and stuff. All very Pollyanna Kumbaya and focused on heart-warming individual stories.

https://brill.com/view/journals/ejhl/28/1/article-p81_6.xml
Doesn't sound like it worked. More than half of all Irish covid-19 deaths were in nursing homes. And relying on community support for things like food raises the question of whether all communities provided similar support, especially in areas with a higher elderly population and thus a greater burden; whether the support was evenly sustained for months on end; and whether it truly met all their all needs, like special dietary requirements, drugs, or simple things like cleaning that might be beyond the capabilities of some elderly. Though apparently it wasn't a mandate, so the elderly didn't have to obey, but the wording and messaging was unclear so apparently a lot of people weren't certain whether it was being enforced with the full threat of the law. And they changed the rules a lot, leading to further confusion. The article also notes the rise in loneliness and depression, and concludes that cocooning won't protect the elderly in the long term.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Shasarak on August 11, 2021, 07:13:19 PM
Keeping high risk individuals safe seems like a much smarter idea then say locking down everyone.

For example Viva Frei has an interesting video about how the elderly in Canada were essentially abandoned and died not from the Wuhan China virus but from neglect.
Ireland did something similar. It's been months, but NPR ran a bit where they talked about how elderly were supposed to stay home ("cocoon"), and how the communities got together to bring them meals and stuff. All very Pollyanna Kumbaya and focused on heart-warming individual stories.

https://brill.com/view/journals/ejhl/28/1/article-p81_6.xml
Doesn't sound like it worked. More than half of all Irish covid-19 deaths were in nursing homes. And relying on community support for things like food raises the question of whether all communities provided similar support, especially in areas with a higher elderly population and thus a greater burden; whether the support was evenly sustained for months on end; and whether it truly met all their all needs, like special dietary requirements, drugs, or simple things like cleaning that might be beyond the capabilities of some elderly. Though apparently it wasn't a mandate, so the elderly didn't have to obey, but the wording and messaging was unclear so apparently a lot of people weren't certain whether it was being enforced with the full threat of the law. And they changed the rules a lot, leading to further confusion. The article also notes the rise in loneliness and depression, and concludes that cocooning won't protect the elderly in the long term.

What are you using as your comparison to determine if it worked or not?

The figures of 50% of deaths in nursing homes is not a lot of information to base your decision considering that the main demographic likely to die from Wuhan China virus is those people found in nursing homes.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ratman_tf on August 11, 2021, 07:16:13 PM
Keeping high risk individuals safe seems like a much smarter idea then say locking down everyone.

For example Viva Frei has an interesting video about how the elderly in Canada were essentially abandoned and died not from the Wuhan China virus but from neglect.
Ireland did something similar. It's been months, but NPR ran a bit where they talked about how elderly were supposed to stay home ("cocoon"), and how the communities got together to bring them meals and stuff. All very Pollyanna Kumbaya and focused on heart-warming individual stories.

https://brill.com/view/journals/ejhl/28/1/article-p81_6.xml
Doesn't sound like it worked. More than half of all Irish covid-19 deaths were in nursing homes. And relying on community support for things like food raises the question of whether all communities provided similar support, especially in areas with a higher elderly population and thus a greater burden; whether the support was evenly sustained for months on end; and whether it truly met all their all needs, like special dietary requirements, drugs, or simple things like cleaning that might be beyond the capabilities of some elderly. Though apparently it wasn't a mandate, so the elderly didn't have to obey, but the wording and messaging was unclear so apparently a lot of people weren't certain whether it was being enforced with the full threat of the law. And they changed the rules a lot, leading to further confusion. The article also notes the rise in loneliness and depression, and concludes that cocooning won't protect the elderly in the long term.

I was never put to the test, but my parents are in their 70's and there's no way any lockdown rules would have kept me from helping them out.* I don't give two shits about the fed and state governments tripping over their own feet to look like they knew what they were doing.

*Bar some fascistic garbage like locking me up.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on August 11, 2021, 07:21:00 PM
Keeping high risk individuals safe seems like a much smarter idea then say locking down everyone.

For example Viva Frei has an interesting video about how the elderly in Canada were essentially abandoned and died not from the Wuhan China virus but from neglect.
Ireland did something similar. It's been months, but NPR ran a bit where they talked about how elderly were supposed to stay home ("cocoon"), and how the communities got together to bring them meals and stuff. All very Pollyanna Kumbaya and focused on heart-warming individual stories.

https://brill.com/view/journals/ejhl/28/1/article-p81_6.xml
Doesn't sound like it worked. More than half of all Irish covid-19 deaths were in nursing homes. And relying on community support for things like food raises the question of whether all communities provided similar support, especially in areas with a higher elderly population and thus a greater burden; whether the support was evenly sustained for months on end; and whether it truly met all their all needs, like special dietary requirements, drugs, or simple things like cleaning that might be beyond the capabilities of some elderly. Though apparently it wasn't a mandate, so the elderly didn't have to obey, but the wording and messaging was unclear so apparently a lot of people weren't certain whether it was being enforced with the full threat of the law. And they changed the rules a lot, leading to further confusion. The article also notes the rise in loneliness and depression, and concludes that cocooning won't protect the elderly in the long term.

What are you using as your comparison to determine if it worked or not?

The figures of 50% of deaths in nursing homes is not a lot of information to base your decision considering that the main demographic likely to die from Wuhan China virus is those people found in nursing homes.
I'm going by the standard that more than 40% of all covid-related deaths taking place in nursing homes has been considered bad in the US. Which may not be the best metric, because it doesn't take into account differences in demographics. But the main support for my conclusion is the article I linked, which is pretty critical of the Irish response, including cocooning.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on August 11, 2021, 07:33:40 PM
I was never put to the test, but my parents are in their 70's and there's no way any lockdown rules would have kept me from helping them out.* I don't give two shits about the fed and state governments tripping over their own feet to look like they knew what they were doing.

*Bar some fascistic garbage like locking me up.
It was put to the test for me, several times. This was literally the weekend when the states involved were imposing new travel restrictions, and we weren't sure if they were going to pull some fascistic garbage like locking us up. Didn't stop us. Turned out the dire warnings was just a paper tiger, but we didn't know that.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Shasarak on August 11, 2021, 08:18:58 PM
I'm going by the standard that more than 40% of all covid-related deaths taking place in nursing homes has been considered bad in the US. Which may not be the best metric, because it doesn't take into account differences in demographics. But the main support for my conclusion is the article I linked, which is pretty critical of the Irish response, including cocooning.

I had a quick look through.  My main take away was that it was a half arsed effort of everyone doing their own thing with no systemic support from the government.

So not so much a reflection that isolating vulnerable people does not work; more that doing things badly gives bad results.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: SHARK on August 11, 2021, 09:18:23 PM
Greetings!

More Pro-masking, pro-vaccine cucketry and shrill condescending and smug lecturing.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/america-this-is-you-grow-the-hell-up/ar-AANd61E?ocid=spartanntp
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on August 11, 2021, 09:21:41 PM
I'm going by the standard that more than 40% of all covid-related deaths taking place in nursing homes has been considered bad in the US. Which may not be the best metric, because it doesn't take into account differences in demographics. But the main support for my conclusion is the article I linked, which is pretty critical of the Irish response, including cocooning.

I had a quick look through.  My main take away was that it was a half arsed effort of everyone doing their own thing with no systemic support from the government.

So not so much a reflection that isolating vulnerable people does not work; more that doing things badly gives bad results.
Did you read my post in response to Ghostmaker's link to the CDC's shielding guidelines? I said the theory is sound, it's just the paper is an incoherent mess. Same with Ireland's response.

The basic problem is the government response tends to become terrible when politics is involved. There's too much accommodating special interests, especially when established plans and procedures are thrown out the window, which we saw multiple times during the pandemic. The WHO was very clear in 2019, for instance, that masks and contact tracing didn't work for respiratory diseases, but then the politics of "we have to look like we're doing something" intervened. And governments tend to be terrible at improvising, because the political incentive system is based more on the appearance of doing something now than on whether it really works.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Shasarak on August 11, 2021, 09:54:36 PM
I'm going by the standard that more than 40% of all covid-related deaths taking place in nursing homes has been considered bad in the US. Which may not be the best metric, because it doesn't take into account differences in demographics. But the main support for my conclusion is the article I linked, which is pretty critical of the Irish response, including cocooning.

I had a quick look through.  My main take away was that it was a half arsed effort of everyone doing their own thing with no systemic support from the government.

So not so much a reflection that isolating vulnerable people does not work; more that doing things badly gives bad results.
Did you read my post in response to Ghostmaker's link to the CDC's shielding guidelines? I said the theory is sound, it's just the paper is an incoherent mess. Same with Ireland's response.

The basic problem is the government response tends to become terrible when politics is involved. There's too much accommodating special interests, especially when established plans and procedures are thrown out the window, which we saw multiple times during the pandemic. The WHO was very clear in 2019, for instance, that masks and contact tracing didn't work for respiratory diseases, but then the politics of "we have to look like we're doing something" intervened. And governments tend to be terrible at improvising, because the political incentive system is based more on the appearance of doing something now than on whether it really works.

Are we disagreeing?  Maybe there was something in regard to Ghostmaker.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on August 11, 2021, 10:08:24 PM
Are we disagreeing? 
Don't seem to be.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: FelixGamingX1 on August 11, 2021, 11:04:55 PM
So the freebies weren’t enough!? You could’ve gotten a free beer or cheeseburger. What else yous want?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on August 12, 2021, 12:10:05 AM
So the freebies weren’t enough!? You could’ve gotten a free beer or cheeseburger. What else yous want?
Bodily autonomy, the most basic of all human rights.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: consolcwby on August 12, 2021, 12:30:44 AM
So the freebies weren’t enough!? You could’ve gotten a free beer or cheeseburger. What else yous want?
Bodily autonomy, the most basic of all human rights.
But they don't consider you human. Just a pest to be exterminated...
(I don't mean you as in you specifically, I mean the masses obviously!)
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ghostmaker on August 12, 2021, 08:45:20 AM
So the freebies weren’t enough!? You could’ve gotten a free beer or cheeseburger. What else yous want?
Bodily autonomy, the most basic of all human rights.
Like I commented before: 'my body, my choice' is deader than dogshit now. Nice work.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on August 12, 2021, 08:56:27 AM
  The one issue with saying we can provide areas for high risk people... Well what happens when it is determined that anyone who does not get the vax is high risk?  I think slippery slopes are...slippery.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: FelixGamingX1 on August 12, 2021, 09:36:51 AM
  The one issue with saying we can provide areas for high risk people... Well what happens when it is determined that anyone who does not get the vax is high risk?  I think slippery slopes are...slippery.

It’s not going to work! In theory, banning the unvaxxed from public venues would funnel everyone down that one path. Doubt this is going to work though. Would be much easier to put the vaxx on mosquitoes and let nature run its course.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ghostmaker on August 12, 2021, 09:38:12 AM
  The one issue with saying we can provide areas for high risk people... Well what happens when it is determined that anyone who does not get the vax is high risk?  I think slippery slopes are...slippery.

It’s not going to work! In theory, banning the unvaxxed from public venues would funnel everyone down that one path. Doubt this is going to work though. Would be much easier to put the vaxx on mosquitoes and let nature run its course.
>assumes the point is to protect people from the Chinese coof

Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ratman_tf on August 12, 2021, 09:42:21 AM
  The one issue with saying we can provide areas for high risk people... Well what happens when it is determined that anyone who does not get the vax is high risk?  I think slippery slopes are...slippery.

It’s not going to work! In theory, banning the unvaxxed from public venues would funnel everyone down that one path. Doubt this is going to work though. Would be much easier to put the vaxx on mosquitoes and let nature run its course.

Sounds like the premise of a zombie apocalypse flick.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Zelen on August 12, 2021, 10:37:40 AM
Governments should be giving out free leafy green vegetables, gym passes, and ivermectin. The first two would pay for themselves easily in reduced medical costs, and the latter would actually stop transmission (something the "vax" is demonstrated not to do).
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: KingCheops on August 12, 2021, 11:32:02 AM
  The one issue with saying we can provide areas for high risk people... Well what happens when it is determined that anyone who does not get the vax is high risk?  I think slippery slopes are...slippery.

It’s not going to work! In theory, banning the unvaxxed from public venues would funnel everyone down that one path. Doubt this is going to work though. Would be much easier to put the vaxx on mosquitoes and let nature run its course.

Thus articulating one of my nightmares about this mRNA technology.  Really easy to get rid of "undesirables" this way.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: FelixGamingX1 on August 12, 2021, 11:58:28 AM
  The one issue with saying we can provide areas for high risk people... Well what happens when it is determined that anyone who does not get the vax is high risk?  I think slippery slopes are...slippery.

It’s not going to work! In theory, banning the unvaxxed from public venues would funnel everyone down that one path. Doubt this is going to work though. Would be much easier to put the vaxx on mosquitoes and let nature run its course.

Thus articulating one of my nightmares about this mRNA technology.  Really easy to get rid of "undesirables" this way.

Well, there are far worst things than that scenario which are bound to unfold with a degree of certainty. If this pandemic keeps raging for another five years, even big corp won’t keep up. The scarcity of jobs will be far too great to keep society moving. Third world might few like a luxury in the next 10 years.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on August 12, 2021, 12:20:02 PM
Well, there are far worst things than that scenario which are bound to unfold with a degree of certainty. If this pandemic keeps raging for another five years, even big corp won’t keep up. The scarcity of jobs will be far too great to keep society moving. Third world might few like a luxury in the next 10 years.
The pandemic certainly isn't causing the severe damage to the economy. It's the lockdowns and the government intervention, including the nightmarish fear-mongering that you've bought into. If they keep destroying businesses and bribing people not to work, then your dire warnings may be true. But there's a simple solution: Don't do it.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Eirikrautha on August 12, 2021, 12:22:51 PM
  The one issue with saying we can provide areas for high risk people... Well what happens when it is determined that anyone who does not get the vax is high risk?  I think slippery slopes are...slippery.

It’s not going to work! In theory, banning the unvaxxed from public venues would funnel everyone down that one path. Doubt this is going to work though. Would be much easier to put the vaxx on mosquitoes and let nature run its course.

Thus articulating one of my nightmares about this mRNA technology.  Really easy to get rid of "undesirables" this way.

Well, there are far worst things than that scenario which are bound to unfold with a degree of certainty. If this pandemic keeps raging for another five years, even big corp won’t keep up. The scarcity of jobs will be far too great to keep society moving. Third world might few like a luxury in the next 10 years.
Right, because a virus with a 99.97% survival rate for folks under 60 will create a mass shortage of employees.  The innumeracy amongst the Branch Covidians is staggering...
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on August 12, 2021, 01:01:56 PM
  The one issue with saying we can provide areas for high risk people... Well what happens when it is determined that anyone who does not get the vax is high risk?  I think slippery slopes are...slippery.

It’s not going to work! In theory, banning the unvaxxed from public venues would funnel everyone down that one path. Doubt this is going to work though. Would be much easier to put the vaxx on mosquitoes and let nature run its course.

  LOL.  I think it would get people shot in the face. 
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: FelixGamingX1 on August 12, 2021, 01:23:14 PM
Well, there are far worst things than that scenario which are bound to unfold with a degree of certainty. If this pandemic keeps raging for another five years, even big corp won’t keep up. The scarcity of jobs will be far too great to keep society moving. Third world might few like a luxury in the next 10 years.
The pandemic certainly isn't causing the severe damage to the economy. It's the lockdowns and the government intervention, including the nightmarish fear-mongering that you've bought into. If they keep destroying businesses and bribing people not to work, then your dire warnings may be true. But there's a simple solution: Don't do it.

That’s how ‘08 recession came to be. Constantly ignoring the signs, lack of communication, and lack of preemptiveness. Right now Covid is transitioning from old to young, many not all, with preexistente health problems. When you look at the signs what does that tell you? I’m sure ignoring wouldn’t be the first thing that comes to mind, would it? Sure liberals are capitalizing on it to push forward their agenda, without a doubt. However, that does not invalidate the danger associated with further mutations of the virus. Science remains apolitical, no matter how hard they try.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on August 12, 2021, 01:38:05 PM
Well, there are far worst things than that scenario which are bound to unfold with a degree of certainty. If this pandemic keeps raging for another five years, even big corp won’t keep up. The scarcity of jobs will be far too great to keep society moving. Third world might few like a luxury in the next 10 years.
The pandemic certainly isn't causing the severe damage to the economy. It's the lockdowns and the government intervention, including the nightmarish fear-mongering that you've bought into. If they keep destroying businesses and bribing people not to work, then your dire warnings may be true. But there's a simple solution: Don't do it.

That’s how ‘08 recession came to be. Constantly ignoring the signs, lack of communication, and lack of preemptiveness. Right now Covid is transitioning from old to young, many not all, with preexistente health problems. When you look at the signs what does that tell you? I’m sure ignoring wouldn’t be the first thing that comes to mind, would it? Sure liberals are capitalizing on it to push forward their agenda, without a doubt. However, that does not invalidate the danger associated with further mutations of the virus. Science remains apolitical, no matter how hard they try.
No, it's not transitioning from the old to the young. And no, that's not what happened in 2008. And no, the people you're referring to as liberals aren't liberals. And no, science can become very political, unless you believe studies funded by tobacco companies truly showed that cigarettes are harmless.

And I fail to see what any of that has to do with the topic at hand. Your post is just a random assortment of mostly unrelated false statements.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: FelixGamingX1 on August 12, 2021, 01:49:42 PM
Well, there are far worst things than that scenario which are bound to unfold with a degree of certainty. If this pandemic keeps raging for another five years, even big corp won’t keep up. The scarcity of jobs will be far too great to keep society moving. Third world might few like a luxury in the next 10 years.
The pandemic certainly isn't causing the severe damage to the economy. It's the lockdowns and the government intervention, including the nightmarish fear-mongering that you've bought into. If they keep destroying businesses and bribing people not to work, then your dire warnings may be true. But there's a simple solution: Don't do it.

That’s how ‘08 recession came to be. Constantly ignoring the signs, lack of communication, and lack of preemptiveness. Right now Covid is transitioning from old to young, many not all, with preexistente health problems. When you look at the signs what does that tell you? I’m sure ignoring wouldn’t be the first thing that comes to mind, would it? Sure liberals are capitalizing on it to push forward their agenda, without a doubt. However, that does not invalidate the danger associated with further mutations of the virus. Science remains apolitical, no matter how hard they try.
No, it's not transitioning from the old to the young. And no, that's not what happened in 2008. And no, the people you're referring to as liberals aren't liberals. And no, science can become very political, unless you believe studies funded by tobacco companies truly showed that cigarettes are harmless.

And I fail to see what any of that has to do with the topic at hand. Your post is just a random assortment of mostly unrelated false statements.

Soon you’ll say Covid never happened, never was a thing, and the millions of deaths were merely placebo and power of the mind. This oblivious mentality is reckless! How many years since you interacted with the outside world!? That’s the mentality that pushes liberals to promote nonsense like the title implies.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on August 12, 2021, 01:58:04 PM
Well, there are far worst things than that scenario which are bound to unfold with a degree of certainty. If this pandemic keeps raging for another five years, even big corp won’t keep up. The scarcity of jobs will be far too great to keep society moving. Third world might few like a luxury in the next 10 years.
The pandemic certainly isn't causing the severe damage to the economy. It's the lockdowns and the government intervention, including the nightmarish fear-mongering that you've bought into. If they keep destroying businesses and bribing people not to work, then your dire warnings may be true. But there's a simple solution: Don't do it.

That’s how ‘08 recession came to be. Constantly ignoring the signs, lack of communication, and lack of preemptiveness. Right now Covid is transitioning from old to young, many not all, with preexistente health problems. When you look at the signs what does that tell you? I’m sure ignoring wouldn’t be the first thing that comes to mind, would it? Sure liberals are capitalizing on it to push forward their agenda, without a doubt. However, that does not invalidate the danger associated with further mutations of the virus. Science remains apolitical, no matter how hard they try.
No, it's not transitioning from the old to the young. And no, that's not what happened in 2008. And no, the people you're referring to as liberals aren't liberals. And no, science can become very political, unless you believe studies funded by tobacco companies truly showed that cigarettes are harmless.

And I fail to see what any of that has to do with the topic at hand. Your post is just a random assortment of mostly unrelated false statements.

Soon you’ll say Covid never happened, never was a thing, and the millions of deaths were merely placebo and power of the mind. This oblivious mentality is reckless! How many years since you interacted with the outside world!? That’s the mentality that pushes liberals to promote nonsense like the title implies.
I will? Okay, two can play that game.

Soon you'll say that the Moon landing was fake, that lizard people control the government, and that you want to fuck an elephant. This perverted mentality is insane. How many years since you left your mom's basement or took a bath? This is the behavior that drives people want to bring out a bulldozer to knock down your external wall, a forklift to remove you from your crusty bed, and a ladder truck loaded with soapy water to cleanse the environmental disaster caused by a complete lack of personal hygiene.

Though no liberal would ever supporting imprisoning people because of an individual's personal medical decisions. "Liberal" is derived from liberty, and liberals support all the things you oppose, like natural rights, the free market, and the primacy of the individual.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: FelixGamingX1 on August 12, 2021, 02:02:07 PM
Well, there are far worst things than that scenario which are bound to unfold with a degree of certainty. If this pandemic keeps raging for another five years, even big corp won’t keep up. The scarcity of jobs will be far too great to keep society moving. Third world might few like a luxury in the next 10 years.
The pandemic certainly isn't causing the severe damage to the economy. It's the lockdowns and the government intervention, including the nightmarish fear-mongering that you've bought into. If they keep destroying businesses and bribing people not to work, then your dire warnings may be true. But there's a simple solution: Don't do it.

That’s how ‘08 recession came to be. Constantly ignoring the signs, lack of communication, and lack of preemptiveness. Right now Covid is transitioning from old to young, many not all, with preexistente health problems. When you look at the signs what does that tell you? I’m sure ignoring wouldn’t be the first thing that comes to mind, would it? Sure liberals are capitalizing on it to push forward their agenda, without a doubt. However, that does not invalidate the danger associated with further mutations of the virus. Science remains apolitical, no matter how hard they try.
No, it's not transitioning from the old to the young. And no, that's not what happened in 2008. And no, the people you're referring to as liberals aren't liberals. And no, science can become very political, unless you believe studies funded by tobacco companies truly showed that cigarettes are harmless.

And I fail to see what any of that has to do with the topic at hand. Your post is just a random assortment of mostly unrelated false statements.

Soon you’ll say Covid never happened, never was a thing, and the millions of deaths were merely placebo and power of the mind. This oblivious mentality is reckless! How many years since you interacted with the outside world!? That’s the mentality that pushes liberals to promote nonsense like the title implies.
I will? Okay, two can play that game.

Soon you'll say that the Moon landing was fake, that lizard people control the government, and that you want to fuck an elephant. This perverted mentality is insane. How many years since you left your mom's basement or took a bath? This is the behavior that drives people want to bring out a bulldozer to knock down your external wall, a forklift to remove you from your crusty bed, and a ladder truck loaded with soapy water to cleanse the environmental disaster caused by a complete lack of personal hygiene.

Though no liberal would ever supporting imprisoning people because of an individual's personal medical decisions. "Liberal" is derived from liberty, and liberals support all the things you oppose, like natural rights, the free market, and the primacy of the individual.

Lmao you almost got me there. I’ll assume you're ‘special’.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on August 12, 2021, 02:08:12 PM
Lmao you almost got me there. I’ll assume you're ‘special’.
What'd I get wrong? Is it your grandmother's basement, not your mother's?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on August 12, 2021, 02:22:17 PM
I have a feeling that Felix is just fucking with people. His views are too intentionally troll-ish for me.

Anyway, I spoke to my dentist, and she confirmed to me that yes storebought masks don't prevent the molecular level covid particles from transmitting through the air through them. And that Covid is transmissible through eyeballs.

Even assuming 100% vaccination-THIS WILL NOT BE A SLAM DUNK SOLUTION. Covid is something we will have to just get used to and treat as if it was the flue eventually. In the long term - vacc or no vacc we will all be sick with it.

The idea that 'If only everybody vacced and isolated this thing would have died off!' is a placebo to make people feel secure about a disease thats here to stay and yes can make some people VERY sick sometimes.

Just because its survivable, doesn't make it not-dangerous. But life as a whole is dangerous, and we have not installed guard rials at every crosswalk.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 12, 2021, 03:33:11 PM
  The one issue with saying we can provide areas for high risk people... Well what happens when it is determined that anyone who does not get the vax is high risk?  I think slippery slopes are...slippery.

It’s not going to work! In theory, banning the unvaxxed from public venues would funnel everyone down that one path. Doubt this is going to work though. Would be much easier to put the vaxx on mosquitoes and let nature run its course.

Thus articulating one of my nightmares about this mRNA technology.  Really easy to get rid of "undesirables" this way.
Perhap you should be less of a shitty human being then so as to not be seen as undesirable? 
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on August 12, 2021, 03:34:49 PM
Perhap you should be less of a shitty human being then so as to not be seen as undesirable?

We can't all be winners Happy. Can you in your rightousness be merciful to the undeserved?  :'(
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 12, 2021, 03:35:15 PM
  The one issue with saying we can provide areas for high risk people... Well what happens when it is determined that anyone who does not get the vax is high risk?  I think slippery slopes are...slippery.

It’s not going to work! In theory, banning the unvaxxed from public venues would funnel everyone down that one path. Doubt this is going to work though. Would be much easier to put the vaxx on mosquitoes and let nature run its course.

Thus articulating one of my nightmares about this mRNA technology.  Really easy to get rid of "undesirables" this way.

Well, there are far worst things than that scenario which are bound to unfold with a degree of certainty. If this pandemic keeps raging for another five years, even big corp won’t keep up. The scarcity of jobs will be far too great to keep society moving. Third world might few like a luxury in the next 10 years.
Right, because a virus with a 99.97% survival rate for folks under 60 will create a mass shortage of employees.  The innumeracy amongst the Branch Covidians is staggering...
Some survivors are having severe enough lingering effects to potentially qualify for various Ievels of disability,  so it's not just about deaths.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 12, 2021, 03:36:34 PM
Perhap you should be less of a shitty human being then so as to not be seen as undesirable?

We can't all be winners Happy. Can you in your rightousness be merciful to the undeserved?  :'(
I have it on my calendar  for Tuesdays and every-other Friday.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 12, 2021, 03:38:04 PM
Lmao you almost got me there. I’ll assume you're ‘special’.
What'd I get wrong? Is it your grandmother's basement, not your mother's?
No, Pat, it's *your mother's* basement!
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Shasarak on August 12, 2021, 04:55:35 PM
Perhap you should be less of a shitty human being then so as to not be seen as undesirable?

We can't all be winners Happy. Can you in your rightousness be merciful to the undeserved?  :'(

You know we just talk about mercy in theory, we dont actually practice it.

Like caring about the environment.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on August 13, 2021, 05:17:05 PM
Some survivors are having severe enough lingering effects to potentially qualify for various Ievels of disability,  so it's not just about deaths.

A tiny minority; most people don't even know they've had it, their symptoms are so mild, and they have no lingering effects at all. A handful outliers with poor physiology don't merit any of this charade.

What about vaccine injuries, which seem to be worse in people who've recovered from previous covid infections?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 13, 2021, 05:36:53 PM
Some survivors are having severe enough lingering effects to potentially qualify for various Ievels of disability,  so it's not just about deaths.

A tiny minority; most people don't even know they've had it, their symptoms are so mild, and they have no lingering effects at all. A handful outliers with poor physiology don't merit any of this charade.

What about vaccine injuries, which seem to be worse in people who've recovered from previous covid infections?
Nice attempt at whataboutism. Let's just go back to suggesting that perhaps you too should try to be a less shitty person.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Eirikrautha on August 13, 2021, 06:14:14 PM
Some survivors are having severe enough lingering effects to potentially qualify for various Ievels of disability,  so it's not just about deaths.

A tiny minority; most people don't even know they've had it, their symptoms are so mild, and they have no lingering effects at all. A handful outliers with poor physiology don't merit any of this charade.

What about vaccine injuries, which seem to be worse in people who've recovered from previous covid infections?
Nice attempt at whataboutism. Let's just go back to suggesting that perhaps you too should try to be a less shitty person.
Lead by example...
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 13, 2021, 06:17:19 PM
Some survivors are having severe enough lingering effects to potentially qualify for various Ievels of disability,  so it's not just about deaths.

A tiny minority; most people don't even know they've had it, their symptoms are so mild, and they have no lingering effects at all. A handful outliers with poor physiology don't merit any of this charade.

What about vaccine injuries, which seem to be worse in people who've recovered from previous covid infections?
Nice attempt at whataboutism. Let's just go back to suggesting that perhaps you too should try to be a less shitty person.
Lead by example...
I do. It's a pity you can't understand that.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: consolcwby on August 13, 2021, 08:10:29 PM
I, myself, can't wait to see (probably within 7 years or so) when the Dems begin to state that all those masks thrown away over years of use has destroyed much of the oceans and are now toxic in the landfills! And you can't burn them because... COVID WILL BE IN THE AIR!!!

THE ENVIRONMENT WAS DESTROYED BY THE PRO-MASKERS!!! AND ...
IT'S ALL TRUMP'S FAULT!
IT'S ALL MAGA'S FAULT!
TO SAVE THE ENVIRONMENT, WE MUST NOW: KILL! KILL!! KILL!!!!

(on the otherhand, why wait - just burn down some more black-owned businesses and show the dems how you REALLY care!)
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Eirikrautha on August 13, 2021, 08:57:44 PM
Some survivors are having severe enough lingering effects to potentially qualify for various Ievels of disability,  so it's not just about deaths.

A tiny minority; most people don't even know they've had it, their symptoms are so mild, and they have no lingering effects at all. A handful outliers with poor physiology don't merit any of this charade.

What about vaccine injuries, which seem to be worse in people who've recovered from previous covid infections?
Nice attempt at whataboutism. Let's just go back to suggesting that perhaps you too should try to be a less shitty person.
Lead by example...
I do. It's a pity you can't understand that.
It's a pity you can't see you're one of the shitty people.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on August 14, 2021, 04:56:19 PM
Nice attempt at whataboutism. Let's just go back to suggesting that perhaps you too should try to be a less shitty person.

Putting your scaremongering bullshit into context. You see the worst affected people, you don't see the majority who never even need any kind of medical assistance and just get over it by themselves.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 14, 2021, 05:59:37 PM
Nice attempt at whataboutism. Let's just go back to suggesting that perhaps you too should try to be a less shitty person.

Putting your scaremongering bullshit into context. You see the worst affected people, you don't see the majority who never even need any kind of medical assistance and just get over it by themselves.
Thank you for acknowledging that I see those at their worst...and their families (up until we have to block visitors,  then I have to deal with barrage of phone calls from them while I'm trying to care for the sickest). Putting your bullshit in context: these are the people you ignor or minimize by trying to downplay Covid as nothing more than a common cold.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: DocJones on August 14, 2021, 09:13:43 PM
Lmao you almost got me there. I’ll assume you're ‘special’.
What'd I get wrong? Is it your grandmother's basement, not your mother's?
No, Pat, it's *your mother's* basement!
Pat is also wrong about the lizard people.
(https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Tnxh1X0D7XE/VvW8ewSTUCI/AAAAAAAAT1A/sh_SP-ITHzMU5wKhZunTTeCAO2RUR3OjQ/s640/CeZn1y_UAAAJRoJ.jpg)
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: KingCheops on August 15, 2021, 08:47:02 PM
Lmao you almost got me there. I’ll assume you're ‘special’.
What'd I get wrong? Is it your grandmother's basement, not your mother's?
No, Pat, it's *your mother's* basement!
Pat is also wrong about the lizard people.
(https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Tnxh1X0D7XE/VvW8ewSTUCI/AAAAAAAAT1A/sh_SP-ITHzMU5wKhZunTTeCAO2RUR3OjQ/s640/CeZn1y_UAAAJRoJ.jpg)

I mean modern medicine is literally using the body parts and cells of babies so I'm not sure how anyone accepting the coof "vax" is not actually consuming the tissue of babies.  So the reptile people conspiracy of consuming the young is correct?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on August 16, 2021, 04:46:24 AM
Thank you for acknowledging that I see those at their worst...and their families (up until we have to block visitors,  then I have to deal with barrage of phone calls from them while I'm trying to care for the sickest). Putting your bullshit in context: these are the people you ignor or minimize by trying to downplay Covid as nothing more than a common cold.

I'm no more concerned about the worst affected than I ever have been in any previous year. For most people, myself included, covid is nothing more than a bad cold.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 16, 2021, 06:19:42 AM
Thank you for acknowledging that I see those at their worst...and their families (up until we have to block visitors,  then I have to deal with barrage of phone calls from them while I'm trying to care for the sickest). Putting your bullshit in context: these are the people you ignor or minimize by trying to downplay Covid as nothing more than a common cold.

I'm no more concerned about the worst affected than I ever have been in any previous year. For most people, myself included, covid is nothing more than a bad cold.
You're wrong. Look at the many ways people are responding. Whether positive or negative,  these are not the responses people have to a "bad cold." To suggest that it is so, just makes you look like an idiot.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on August 16, 2021, 12:36:17 PM
You're wrong. Look at the many ways people are responding. Whether positive or negative,  these are not the responses people have to a "bad cold." To suggest that it is so, just makes you look like an idiot.

Excessive, borderline-hysterical and completely unnecessary response from the government doesn't make it a "crisis". It was (past tense) a bad cold season that passed over a year ago.

The only idiots are people like you who insist we carry on pretending there's a pandemic.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: FelixGamingX1 on August 18, 2021, 02:14:08 PM
Today I was catching up with some of The Quartering videos. There’s this one in particular that sent shivers down my spine. In France, they’re apparently walking around asking for papers in some establishments. It’s chilling to watch!
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ghostmaker on August 18, 2021, 02:41:13 PM
Today I was catching up with some of The Quartering videos. There’s this one in particular that sent shivers down my spine. In France, they’re apparently walking around asking for papers in some establishments. It’s chilling to watch!
You missed where NYC is rolling out their 'Key to New York' program, where you won't be allowed into ANY building without valid vaccination papers.

"Papers, please."
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: FelixGamingX1 on August 18, 2021, 02:46:24 PM
Today I was catching up with some of The Quartering videos. There’s this one in particular that sent shivers down my spine. In France, they’re apparently walking around asking for papers in some establishments. It’s chilling to watch!
You missed where NYC is rolling out their 'Key to New York' program, where you won't be allowed into ANY building without valid vaccination papers.

"Papers, please."

I think the only reason Cali didn’t go there yet is so Newsom doesn’t get a 49th recall in under a year.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on August 18, 2021, 02:46:36 PM
It was never sold as a 100% cure. They accurately reported the percentage effectiveness against each strain as it arose and none of those were 100%.

Not even 1% efficacy. Utterly pointless and probably making infections worse if Israel's latest data is anything to go by. What a strange coincidence that all the places with the highest level of vaccination also have the highest levels of infection.

Please, get your vaccines guys. Even if it's just the J&J Vaccine which uses more "normal" tech behind it, just get it.

Fuck off, not a chance.

Somehow this "deadly" virus has failed to kill me, or leave any lasting impacts, twice. Might I not even notice it the next time?

1% efficacy? Makes infections worse? Places with the highest vaccination rates have the highest infection rates?

NOTHING you just said is true.

Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on August 18, 2021, 04:37:54 PM
1% efficacy? Makes infections worse? Places with the highest vaccination rates have the highest infection rates?

NOTHING you just said is true.



Around 1% actual risk reduction. Israel. Iceland. The UK. Highest rates of vaccination, highest rates of infection.

Try again.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Zelen on August 19, 2021, 08:04:27 PM
The ~1% risk reduction is from the actual Pfizer clinical trial. This is the absolute risk reduction (ARR) flipside to the oft-reported, but misleading, relative risk reduction (RRR) 95%.

The Pfizer clinical trial was specifically assessing the efficacy of their product in reducing mild cases of Covid. So it's interesting the goalpost that most people are now looking at isn't prevention of infection or reduction of mild illness, it's serious cases and deaths. The trials weren't designed for that (ironically because conducting a trial for serious cases and deaths would have required a lot more people because serious cases and deaths are actually very rare). I think a lot of people are looking with concern at places like Israel where it seems like injections are either failing over time, or never provided the kind of protection that CDC/etal were assuming they did.


As for "makes infections worse" -- Pretty speculative still. There are some pointing at ADE in Israel, others suggesting that injections interfere with normal immune response. I'm assuming this statement is playing off of very-poorly-chosen words by CDC spokeswoman Walensky?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on August 20, 2021, 04:44:56 AM
It's a similar number for the Moderna jab (I think it was 1.1% where the ARR was 0.8% for Pfizer). Ironically, the much-maligned Astrazeneca jab is 1.6%.

Still in every case, the actual impact is fuck all.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on August 20, 2021, 08:43:20 PM
It's a similar number for the Moderna jab (I think it was 1.1% where the ARR was 0.8% for Pfizer). Ironically, the much-maligned Astrazeneca jab is 1.6%.

Still in every case, the actual impact is fuck all.

You not understanding it doesn't mean it's not working. “Let’s say a study enrolled 20,000 patients into the control group and 20,000 in the vaccine group. In that study, 200 people in the control group got sick and 0 people in the vaccine group got sick. Even though the vaccine efficacy would be a whopping 100%, the ARR would show that vaccines reduce the absolute risk by just 1% (200/20,000= 1%). For the ARR to increase to 20% in our example study with a vaccine with 100% efficacy, 4,000 of the 20,000 people in the control group would have to get sick (4,000/20,000= 20%).”

"RRR tells us how much the risk of infection is “reduced in the test vaccine group, compared to a control group who did not receive the test vaccine.” The RRR, or efficacy, tells us "how well the vaccine protects clinical trial participants from getting sick or getting very sick.”"

RRR is the right number to use for vaccines.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Eirikrautha on August 21, 2021, 07:44:44 AM
It's a similar number for the Moderna jab (I think it was 1.1% where the ARR was 0.8% for Pfizer). Ironically, the much-maligned Astrazeneca jab is 1.6%.

Still in every case, the actual impact is fuck all.

You not understanding it doesn't mean it's not working. “Let’s say a study enrolled 20,000 patients into the control group and 20,000 in the vaccine group. In that study, 200 people in the control group got sick and 0 people in the vaccine group got sick. Even though the vaccine efficacy would be a whopping 100%, the ARR would show that vaccines reduce the absolute risk by just 1% (200/20,000= 1%). For the ARR to increase to 20% in our example study with a vaccine with 100% efficacy, 4,000 of the 20,000 people in the control group would have to get sick (4,000/20,000= 20%).”

"RRR tells us how much the risk of infection is “reduced in the test vaccine group, compared to a control group who did not receive the test vaccine.” The RRR, or efficacy, tells us "how well the vaccine protects clinical trial participants from getting sick or getting very sick.”"

RRR is the right number to use for vaccines.
You not understanding doesn't mean he's wrong, either.  When it comes to the decision to get vaccinated, the ARR tells you what the overall risk is of not getting the jab.  If hardly anyone in the control group got the virus (or got sick enough to know they had it), then you are not increasing your odds by very much in not taking the vaccine.  There is more than one factor to consider, especially with a vaccine with no long term studies, an apparently high breakthrough rate, and a novel approach vector for a novel virus.  The drug companies calculate both RRR and ARR because they are both useful statistics.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Zelen on August 21, 2021, 11:07:27 AM
Been seeing more and more video coming from Australia. It is a legitimate nightmare. It's really concerning that anyone can look at a country under martial law, where people are assaulted for going outside, and think "This is fine."

There are absolutely a lot of good people who want to save lives, but this kind of behavior completely destroys public trust. It needs to be condemned unconditionally... Crickets.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on August 21, 2021, 12:40:06 PM
You not understanding it doesn't mean it's not working. “Let’s say a study enrolled 20,000 patients into the control group and 20,000 in the vaccine group. In that study, 200 people in the control group got sick and 0 people in the vaccine group got sick. Even though the vaccine efficacy would be a whopping 100%, the ARR would show that vaccines reduce the absolute risk by just 1% (200/20,000= 1%). For the ARR to increase to 20% in our example study with a vaccine with 100% efficacy, 4,000 of the 20,000 people in the control group would have to get sick (4,000/20,000= 20%).”

"RRR tells us how much the risk of infection is “reduced in the test vaccine group, compared to a control group who did not receive the test vaccine.” The RRR, or efficacy, tells us "how well the vaccine protects clinical trial participants from getting sick or getting very sick.”"

RRR is the right number to use for vaccines.

RRR has never been used before now, because it has no clinical significance whatsoever. It's marketing puff. So spare me.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on August 21, 2021, 04:06:39 PM
Been seeing more and more video coming from Australia. It is a legitimate nightmare. It's really concerning that anyone can look at a country under martial law, where people are assaulted for going outside, and think "This is fine."

There are absolutely a lot of good people who want to save lives, but this kind of behavior completely destroys public trust. It needs to be condemned unconditionally... Crickets.

   I think australia is what the USA looks at for beta testing.  Just can not quite get those bitter clingers to let that gun go.   Because I do think you need that before you start handing out beatings for the common good.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on August 21, 2021, 06:31:10 PM
It's a similar number for the Moderna jab (I think it was 1.1% where the ARR was 0.8% for Pfizer). Ironically, the much-maligned Astrazeneca jab is 1.6%.

Still in every case, the actual impact is fuck all.

You not understanding it doesn't mean it's not working. “Let’s say a study enrolled 20,000 patients into the control group and 20,000 in the vaccine group. In that study, 200 people in the control group got sick and 0 people in the vaccine group got sick. Even though the vaccine efficacy would be a whopping 100%, the ARR would show that vaccines reduce the absolute risk by just 1% (200/20,000= 1%). For the ARR to increase to 20% in our example study with a vaccine with 100% efficacy, 4,000 of the 20,000 people in the control group would have to get sick (4,000/20,000= 20%).”

"RRR tells us how much the risk of infection is “reduced in the test vaccine group, compared to a control group who did not receive the test vaccine.” The RRR, or efficacy, tells us "how well the vaccine protects clinical trial participants from getting sick or getting very sick.”"

RRR is the right number to use for vaccines.
You not understanding doesn't mean he's wrong, either.  When it comes to the decision to get vaccinated, the ARR tells you what the overall risk is of not getting the jab. 

Not really. It tells you the rate at the time of the test. But there was an increase in number of people contagious since it, and Delta is much more contagious and the risk of contracting the virus went up by a meaningful amount. But effectiveness of the vaccine keeping people out of the hospital and dying remains extremely strong, particularly in the 6 months following the second dose. That should all be much more important to someone's decision than the ARR rate of the initial study.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Eirikrautha on August 21, 2021, 11:37:38 PM
That should all be much more important to someone's decision than the ARR rate of the initial study.
And this is why people like you need to be defeated.  Because it is not your place to decide what information people should or should not have, how they should weight it, or what is most important.  You are not qualified to decide any of that for anyone but yourself.  Your mentality is that of the tyrant.  Sic semper tyrannis.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on August 22, 2021, 12:07:31 AM
That should all be much more important to someone's decision than the ARR rate of the initial study.
And this is why people like you need to be defeated.  Because it is not your place to decide what information people should or should not have, how they should weight it, or what is most important.  You are not qualified to decide any of that for anyone but yourself.  Your mentality is that of the tyrant.  Sic semper tyrannis.

Jesus you're a jackass. How do you get "He's trying to force me to decide how he wants!" from "SHOULD BE more important to people's decisions"? I am not trying to decide for anyone else, I am offering my opinion that I think people SHOULD take that into consideration more because logically it makes more sense.

I notice how others in this thread who said you "should" take ARR more into consideration are not called tyrant by you despite using identical language of "should?"

I have gone from "these guys [like you] are not really as dumb as they seem they're just being defensive" to genuinely wondering "maybe they really are not very bright and that's been the issue all along." Which is seriously depressing. Not that I have an issue with people who are just not very bright, but it does make having a conversation about complicated topics like this not very appealing.

I am hoping you were just drunk or overtired when you posted that.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Eirikrautha on August 22, 2021, 08:27:14 AM
That should all be much more important to someone's decision than the ARR rate of the initial study.
And this is why people like you need to be defeated.  Because it is not your place to decide what information people should or should not have, how they should weight it, or what is most important.  You are not qualified to decide any of that for anyone but yourself.  Your mentality is that of the tyrant.  Sic semper tyrannis.

Jesus you're a jackass. How do you get "He's trying to force me to decide how he wants!" from "SHOULD BE more important to people's decisions"? I am not trying to decide for anyone else, I am offering my opinion that I think people SHOULD take that into consideration more because logically it makes more sense.

I notice how others in this thread who said you "should" take ARR more into consideration are not called tyrant by you despite using identical language of "should?"

I have gone from "these guys [like you] are not really as dumb as they seem they're just being defensive" to genuinely wondering "maybe they really are not very bright and that's been the issue all along." Which is seriously depressing. Not that I have an issue with people who are just not very bright, but it does make having a conversation about complicated topics like this not very appealing.

I am hoping you were just drunk or overtired when you posted that.
No.  You cannot escape your history here.  You frequently support the collectivist view of these topics, so you cannot be offended when someone reads your posts consistent with everything else you've posted.  That's why someone who has consistently supported an individualist world view gets the benefit of the doubt when they say "should," and you don't.

The people that disagree with you aren't dumb.  They certainly aren't dumb for taking your words at face value.  They have a different world view than you do, and you are the dumb one if you can't see that.  Honestly, you strike me as the poster boy for the Dunning-Kruger Effect.  You can console yourself with the notion that we'd agree with you if we were "smarter," but the reality is that your world view is flawed and not worth agreeing with...
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on August 22, 2021, 08:48:20 AM
Not really. It tells you the rate at the time of the test. But there was an increase in number of people contagious since it, and Delta is much more contagious and the risk of contracting the virus went up by a meaningful amount. But effectiveness of the vaccine keeping people out of the hospital and dying remains extremely strong, particularly in the 6 months following the second dose. That should all be much more important to someone's decision than the ARR rate of the initial study.

Delta is more contagious and less deadly. That's what is keeping people out of hospital, there's fuck all evidence the jabs are doing anything at all, given how many "fully vaccinated" people are still being hospitalised and are dying.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on August 22, 2021, 01:41:59 PM
That should all be much more important to someone's decision than the ARR rate of the initial study.
And this is why people like you need to be defeated.  Because it is not your place to decide what information people should or should not have, how they should weight it, or what is most important.  You are not qualified to decide any of that for anyone but yourself.  Your mentality is that of the tyrant.  Sic semper tyrannis.

Jesus you're a jackass. How do you get "He's trying to force me to decide how he wants!" from "SHOULD BE more important to people's decisions"? I am not trying to decide for anyone else, I am offering my opinion that I think people SHOULD take that into consideration more because logically it makes more sense.

I notice how others in this thread who said you "should" take ARR more into consideration are not called tyrant by you despite using identical language of "should?"

I have gone from "these guys [like you] are not really as dumb as they seem they're just being defensive" to genuinely wondering "maybe they really are not very bright and that's been the issue all along." Which is seriously depressing. Not that I have an issue with people who are just not very bright, but it does make having a conversation about complicated topics like this not very appealing.

I am hoping you were just drunk or overtired when you posted that.
No.  You cannot escape your history here.  You frequently support the collectivist view of these topics, so you cannot be offended when someone reads your posts consistent with everything else you've posted.  That's why someone who has consistently supported an individualist world view gets the benefit of the doubt when they say "should," and you don't.

The people that disagree with you aren't dumb.  They certainly aren't dumb for taking your words at face value.  They have a different world view than you do, and you are the dumb one if you can't see that.  Honestly, you strike me as the poster boy for the Dunning-Kruger Effect.  You can console yourself with the notion that we'd agree with you if we were "smarter," but the reality is that your world view is flawed and not worth agreeing with...

I have no collectivist history here. You just disagree with my views and assume it must be collectivist because you disagree. And there is nothing about what I said on face value which implied totalitarianism. I used the identical language of those who disagreed with me and nobody was confused that what I said was in any way implying I wanted to force anyone to what I wanted them to do. It's just nonsense. You have no excuse for that spin you put on what I said - I disagree with you so you just assume I must be some fascist. It was a dumb take and you won't own it.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on August 22, 2021, 05:13:53 PM
  Hmmm, I dunno anyone who says other people are threatening their safety by not masking or vaccinating, is sort of placing a good deal of DO IT NOW pressure down.  If you have a medical weakness to this virus, wear a respirator or gas mask, as that will actually work regarding protection from infection, and stop telling other people what to do.  Also, if you are vaccinated, and wearing your gas mask, you are safe.  Leave other people alone.   Now if that is no longer your stance (other people are putting you at risk because they dont wear masks or take vaccines) and you are simply presenting information for people to consider for their own good, so be it.  Past post history points towards that not being the view however.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Zelen on August 22, 2021, 06:08:03 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/ukS5kLR.png)
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on August 22, 2021, 06:10:06 PM
  Hmmm, I dunno anyone who says other people are threatening their safety by not masking or vaccinating, is sort of placing a good deal of DO IT NOW pressure down.  If you have a medical weakness to this virus, wear a respirator or gas mask, as that will actually work regarding protection from infection, and stop telling other people what to do.  Also, if you are vaccinated, and wearing your gas mask, you are safe.  Leave other people alone.   Now if that is no longer your stance (other people are putting you at risk because they dont wear masks or take vaccines) and you are simply presenting information for people to consider for their own good, so be it.  Past post history points towards that not being the view however.

You realize he was responding to a specific post which had nothing to do with advocating for masks or vaccinations and just talking about what sorts of information people evaluate when looking at the vaccine effectiveness data, right?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on August 22, 2021, 06:22:12 PM
  Hmmm, I dunno anyone who says other people are threatening their safety by not masking or vaccinating, is sort of placing a good deal of DO IT NOW pressure down.  If you have a medical weakness to this virus, wear a respirator or gas mask, as that will actually work regarding protection from infection, and stop telling other people what to do.  Also, if you are vaccinated, and wearing your gas mask, you are safe.  Leave other people alone.   Now if that is no longer your stance (other people are putting you at risk because they dont wear masks or take vaccines) and you are simply presenting information for people to consider for their own good, so be it.  Past post history points towards that not being the view however.

You realize he was responding to a specific post which had nothing to do with advocating for masks or vaccinations and just talking about what sorts of information people evaluate when looking at the vaccine effectiveness data, right?

  I do, 100 percent.  I am making the point he may not be taking your statements in good faith.  You realize this, right?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on August 22, 2021, 10:26:31 PM
  Hmmm, I dunno anyone who says other people are threatening their safety by not masking or vaccinating, is sort of placing a good deal of DO IT NOW pressure down.  If you have a medical weakness to this virus, wear a respirator or gas mask, as that will actually work regarding protection from infection, and stop telling other people what to do.  Also, if you are vaccinated, and wearing your gas mask, you are safe.  Leave other people alone.   Now if that is no longer your stance (other people are putting you at risk because they dont wear masks or take vaccines) and you are simply presenting information for people to consider for their own good, so be it.  Past post history points towards that not being the view however.

You realize he was responding to a specific post which had nothing to do with advocating for masks or vaccinations and just talking about what sorts of information people evaluate when looking at the vaccine effectiveness data, right?

  I do, 100 percent.  I am making the point he may not be taking your statements in good faith.  You realize this, right?

Even taking them in bad faith there is literally no way to read what I said as me trying to force someone to do what I want. None. I mean there is a huge difference between "not giving the benefit of the doubt" and "taking a statement which isn't in doubt and simply re-writing it to make shit up." He simply made shit up. And rather than admit it once he has a moment to think about it he just doubles down.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Eirikrautha on August 22, 2021, 10:32:14 PM
  Hmmm, I dunno anyone who says other people are threatening their safety by not masking or vaccinating, is sort of placing a good deal of DO IT NOW pressure down.  If you have a medical weakness to this virus, wear a respirator or gas mask, as that will actually work regarding protection from infection, and stop telling other people what to do.  Also, if you are vaccinated, and wearing your gas mask, you are safe.  Leave other people alone.   Now if that is no longer your stance (other people are putting you at risk because they dont wear masks or take vaccines) and you are simply presenting information for people to consider for their own good, so be it.  Past post history points towards that not being the view however.

You realize he was responding to a specific post which had nothing to do with advocating for masks or vaccinations and just talking about what sorts of information people evaluate when looking at the vaccine effectiveness data, right?

  I do, 100 percent.  I am making the point he may not be taking your statements in good faith.  You realize this, right?

Even taking them in bad faith there is literally no way to read what I said as me trying to force someone to do what I want. None. I mean there is a huge difference between "not giving the benefit of the doubt" and "taking a statement which isn't in doubt and simply re-writing it to make shit up." He simply made shit up. And rather than admit it once he has a moment to think about it he just doubles down.
TIL that quoting someone directly is "making shit up."  This guy is a clown.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ghostmaker on August 23, 2021, 08:08:58 AM
  Hmmm, I dunno anyone who says other people are threatening their safety by not masking or vaccinating, is sort of placing a good deal of DO IT NOW pressure down.  If you have a medical weakness to this virus, wear a respirator or gas mask, as that will actually work regarding protection from infection, and stop telling other people what to do.  Also, if you are vaccinated, and wearing your gas mask, you are safe.  Leave other people alone.   Now if that is no longer your stance (other people are putting you at risk because they dont wear masks or take vaccines) and you are simply presenting information for people to consider for their own good, so be it.  Past post history points towards that not being the view however.

You realize he was responding to a specific post which had nothing to do with advocating for masks or vaccinations and just talking about what sorts of information people evaluate when looking at the vaccine effectiveness data, right?

  I do, 100 percent.  I am making the point he may not be taking your statements in good faith.  You realize this, right?

Even taking them in bad faith there is literally no way to read what I said as me trying to force someone to do what I want. None. I mean there is a huge difference between "not giving the benefit of the doubt" and "taking a statement which isn't in doubt and simply re-writing it to make shit up." He simply made shit up. And rather than admit it once he has a moment to think about it he just doubles down.
TIL that quoting someone directly is "making shit up."  This guy is a clown.
I believe the term 'kapo' applies better.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on August 23, 2021, 10:15:55 AM
  Hmmm, I dunno anyone who says other people are threatening their safety by not masking or vaccinating, is sort of placing a good deal of DO IT NOW pressure down.  If you have a medical weakness to this virus, wear a respirator or gas mask, as that will actually work regarding protection from infection, and stop telling other people what to do.  Also, if you are vaccinated, and wearing your gas mask, you are safe.  Leave other people alone.   Now if that is no longer your stance (other people are putting you at risk because they dont wear masks or take vaccines) and you are simply presenting information for people to consider for their own good, so be it.  Past post history points towards that not being the view however.

You realize he was responding to a specific post which had nothing to do with advocating for masks or vaccinations and just talking about what sorts of information people evaluate when looking at the vaccine effectiveness data, right?

  I do, 100 percent.  I am making the point he may not be taking your statements in good faith.  You realize this, right?

Even taking them in bad faith there is literally no way to read what I said as me trying to force someone to do what I want. None. I mean there is a huge difference between "not giving the benefit of the doubt" and "taking a statement which isn't in doubt and simply re-writing it to make shit up." He simply made shit up. And rather than admit it once he has a moment to think about it he just doubles down.
TIL that quoting someone directly is "making shit up."  This guy is a clown.

The "making shit up" is claiming I had even vaguely implied in my opinion of what data I thought people should place more importance on in evaluating vaccine efficacy that this in any way meant I thought you should be "forced to" take the vaccine.

I am still waiting for ANYTHING AT ALL in what I wrote which could even hint at such an implication.

You won't respond to that because you MADE IT UP ENTIRELY.

You also won't respond when someone else said I should be banned for voicing a dissenting opinion - actual totalitarianism. Because you're not really concerned with totalitarianism and it doesn't happen when you see it - you are just concerned with people hearing views which differ from yours.

You guys are just SJW in sheeps clothing. Cancel culture is strong with a few of you. Do whatever is necessary to silence any dissenting view - lie about what they're saying, call in the mob to support that lie, and then call for them to be banned (which yes did just happen in the other thread, and purely because he disagrees with my view and thinks I am "pissing on" the conversation by disagreeing). And make damn sure nobody calls out that demand for a banning if it's a view they don't agree with.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on August 23, 2021, 10:22:45 AM
FDA grants full (non-experimental) approval to Pfizer Covid-19 Vaccine (https://www.cnbc.com/2021/08/23/fda-pfizer-biontech-covid-vaccine-wins-full-approval-clearing-path-to-mandates.html).

So, about that "experimental non-approved" excuse...?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on August 23, 2021, 10:35:44 AM
FDA grants full (non-experimental) approval to Pfizer Covid-19 Vaccine (https://www.cnbc.com/2021/08/23/fda-pfizer-biontech-covid-vaccine-wins-full-approval-clearing-path-to-mandates.html).

So, about that "experimental non-approved" excuse...?
Yes, I'm sure a rushed and politically-driven approval will allay everyone's concerns.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on August 23, 2021, 12:39:48 PM
FDA grants full (non-experimental) approval to Pfizer Covid-19 Vaccine (https://www.cnbc.com/2021/08/23/fda-pfizer-biontech-covid-vaccine-wins-full-approval-clearing-path-to-mandates.html).

So, about that "experimental non-approved" excuse...?
Yes, I'm sure a rushed and politically-driven approval will allay everyone's concerns.

I am sure you can point to FDA approval of a vaccine which had no political drive behind it? The Polio vaccine surely did.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: moonsweeper on August 23, 2021, 12:41:43 PM
FDA grants full (non-experimental) approval to Pfizer Covid-19 Vaccine (https://www.cnbc.com/2021/08/23/fda-pfizer-biontech-covid-vaccine-wins-full-approval-clearing-path-to-mandates.html).

So, about that "experimental non-approved" excuse...?
Yes, I'm sure a rushed and politically-driven approval will allay everyone's concerns.

Meh...my lawyer will just cite the administrative procedures processes that the FDA has in place that it hasn't followed for this medication, so you know, from a legal standpoint still not an approval... ::)
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: moonsweeper on August 23, 2021, 12:52:05 PM
FDA grants full (non-experimental) approval to Pfizer Covid-19 Vaccine (https://www.cnbc.com/2021/08/23/fda-pfizer-biontech-covid-vaccine-wins-full-approval-clearing-path-to-mandates.html).

So, about that "experimental non-approved" excuse...?
Yes, I'm sure a rushed and politically-driven approval will allay everyone's concerns.


I am sure you can point to FDA approval of a vaccine which had no political drive behind it? The Polio vaccine surely did.

So now we are comparing an experimental treatment to a polio vaccine that was approved based on

1.  A very high mortality rate.
2.  Was based on a proven technology that had about a century of study.
3.  There was no therapeutic alternative for prevention.
4. 
...oh never mind, I forgot...

I wasn't responding to someone who argues in good faith...
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on August 23, 2021, 01:37:34 PM
FDA grants full (non-experimental) approval to Pfizer Covid-19 Vaccine (https://www.cnbc.com/2021/08/23/fda-pfizer-biontech-covid-vaccine-wins-full-approval-clearing-path-to-mandates.html).

So, about that "experimental non-approved" excuse...?
Yes, I'm sure a rushed and politically-driven approval will allay everyone's concerns.


I am sure you can point to FDA approval of a vaccine which had no political drive behind it? The Polio vaccine surely did.

So now we are comparing an experimental treatment to a polio vaccine that was approved based on

1.  A very high mortality rate.
2.  Was based on a proven technology that had about a century of study.
3.  There was no therapeutic alternative for prevention.
4. 
...oh never mind, I forgot...

I wasn't responding to someone who argues in good faith...

I am arguing in good faith. I was not comparing the vaccines I was responding to the point Pat made concerning political pressure behind a vaccine. There absolutely was political pressure behind the polio vaccine. That has zero to do with any other details of the polio vaccine. But sure, name any other vaccine which didn't have political pressure behind it? I can't think of one. The diphtheria one had political pressure too. My point is that political pressure behind a vaccine hasn't made anyone hesitate about that vaccine in the past so why is that a good reason to not get this vaccine? I mean, part of the process of any vaccine being approved IS POLITICAL PRESSURE. It would be difficult to get a new vaccine approved without any political pressure behind it.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on August 23, 2021, 01:42:38 PM
  Weapons of Mass Destruction.  Spreading Democracy.  Not quite sure how it is hard to understand that a federal government that overtly lies and deceives the public can not understand how it seems to be running short on good will.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: deadDMwalking on August 23, 2021, 02:31:12 PM
Clearly the vaccine has different impacts based on your political affiliation.  For registered Democrats, affiliated Independents and more liberal political parties it saves lives and reduces the severity of the disease.  For Republicans and conservatives in general, it targets their reproductive organs, shrinking their testicles/ovaries and making them infertile. 

As long as people in rural areas agree not to come into the city where Democrats are shedding virus everywhere because of their vaccine, I think we'll all be fine. 

I mean, except for the people who die needlessly, but that'll just exacerbate the ongoing shift of populations from rural to urban areas. 
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Eirikrautha on August 23, 2021, 02:48:20 PM
FDA grants full (non-experimental) approval to Pfizer Covid-19 Vaccine (https://www.cnbc.com/2021/08/23/fda-pfizer-biontech-covid-vaccine-wins-full-approval-clearing-path-to-mandates.html).

So, about that "experimental non-approved" excuse...?
Yes, I'm sure a rushed and politically-driven approval will allay everyone's concerns.

I am sure you can point to FDA approval of a vaccine which had no political drive behind it? The Polio vaccine surely did.
Google "Cutter Vaccine."  120,000 administered, 40,000 sick, 51 paralyzed, 5 dead.  All in the rush to get the polio vaccine out.  Even your own examples defeat you.  You really are a buffoon.

(Brace for the 10 paragraph response that nitpicks minute details to prove that his flippant generalized response didn't actually refer to polio vaccine mistakes, and oh, yeah, in another thread last week you didn't say exactly what he thought you should say, so that means you're a totalitarian, too!)
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on August 23, 2021, 02:49:43 PM
  Weapons of Mass Destruction.  Spreading Democracy.  Not quite sure how it is hard to understand that a federal government that overtly lies and deceives the public can not understand how it seems to be running short on good will.

Except they lied to the people during the years other vaccines were approved and you (I think?) were cool with those vaccines? Shoot we lied ABOUT vaccines (Tuskegee experiment) and you were (I think?) cool with those vaccines.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on August 23, 2021, 02:51:47 PM
FDA grants full (non-experimental) approval to Pfizer Covid-19 Vaccine (https://www.cnbc.com/2021/08/23/fda-pfizer-biontech-covid-vaccine-wins-full-approval-clearing-path-to-mandates.html).

So, about that "experimental non-approved" excuse...?
Yes, I'm sure a rushed and politically-driven approval will allay everyone's concerns.

I am sure you can point to FDA approval of a vaccine which had no political drive behind it? The Polio vaccine surely did.
Google "Cutter Vaccine."  120,000 administered, 40,000 sick, 51 paralyzed, 5 dead.  All in the rush to get the polio vaccine out.  Even your own examples defeat you.  You really are a buffoon.

(Brace for the 10 paragraph response that nitpicks minute details to prove that his flippant generalized response didn't actually refer to polio vaccine mistakes, and oh, yeah, in another thread last week you didn't say exactly what he thought you should say, so that means you're a totalitarian, too!)

No moronboy that's WHY I cited that. The polio vaccine had terrible issues, and yet WERE ALL COOL WITH IT. It had political pressure, and yet WERE ALL COOL WITH IT. Relative to this vaccine, I think you could say the Polio vaccine had more issues and political pressure behind it than this one, right? Is your tiny brain getting my point yet?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on August 23, 2021, 03:37:08 PM
FDA grants full (non-experimental) approval to Pfizer Covid-19 Vaccine (https://www.cnbc.com/2021/08/23/fda-pfizer-biontech-covid-vaccine-wins-full-approval-clearing-path-to-mandates.html).

So, about that "experimental non-approved" excuse...?
Yes, I'm sure a rushed and politically-driven approval will allay everyone's concerns.

I am sure you can point to FDA approval of a vaccine which had no political drive behind it? The Polio vaccine surely did.
The Salk polio vaccine? Just weeks after it was distributed, inoculated children started coming down the very disease the jab was supposed to prevent. Public health completely fucked up the response, including denying it was happening, before pulling first some of the doses, then shutting down the program entirely, less than a month after they started. Turns out, one of the labs had failed to deactivate some of the live viruses used in the vaccine. (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1383764/) They were infecting the very kids they were supposed to protect.

This completely destroyed public trust in Salk's vaccine, and it wasn't until Sabin's vaccine came out 5 years later, that the public was wiling to try another jab. Even for a disease as terrifying as polio.

This is why we take our time when it comes to vaccines. Rushing them is dangerous. Vaccines are probably the greatest medical breakthrough in the last 200 years, but their history is littered with dark episodes like the rollout of the Salk vaccine.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on August 23, 2021, 03:44:55 PM

No moronboy that's WHY I cited that. The polio vaccine had terrible issues, and yet WERE ALL COOL WITH IT. It had political pressure, and yet WERE ALL COOL WITH IT. Relative to this vaccine, I think you could say the Polio vaccine had more issues and political pressure behind it than this one, right? Is your tiny brain getting my point yet?
They were not cool with it. As I mentioned, the infected kids destroyed public trust, and it was only a few cases.

It was also not politicized to the same degree. The 1955 rollout wasn't a grand governmental program. It was sponsored by the National Foundation for Infantile Paralysis, through their March of Dimes fundraiser. The government had more of an enforcement/regulatory role (it was the Surgeon General who pulled the vaccine from the market).
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on August 23, 2021, 03:46:22 PM
FDA grants full (non-experimental) approval to Pfizer Covid-19 Vaccine (https://www.cnbc.com/2021/08/23/fda-pfizer-biontech-covid-vaccine-wins-full-approval-clearing-path-to-mandates.html).

So, about that "experimental non-approved" excuse...?
Yes, I'm sure a rushed and politically-driven approval will allay everyone's concerns.

I am sure you can point to FDA approval of a vaccine which had no political drive behind it? The Polio vaccine surely did.
The Salk polio vaccine? Just weeks after it was distributed, inoculated children started coming down the very disease the jab was supposed to prevent. Public health completely fucked up the response, including denying it was happening, before pulling first some of the doses, then shutting down the program entirely, less than a month after they started. Turns out, one of the labs had failed to deactivate some of the live viruses used in the vaccine. (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1383764/) They were infecting the very kids they were supposed to protect.

This completely destroyed public trust in Salk's vaccine, and it wasn't until Sabin's vaccine came out 5 years later, that the public was wiling to try another jab. Even for a disease as terrifying as polio.

This is why we take our time when it comes to vaccines. Rushing them is dangerous. Vaccines are probably the greatest medical breakthrough in the last 200 years, but their history is littered with dark episodes like the rollout of the Salk vaccine.

I'll ask again. The Polio vaccine had political pressure behind it, right?
We established procedures for FDA approval after the Polio vaccine, right?
There is no allegation this new approval of the Covid-19 vaccine bypassed those procedures, right? The emergency validation did, but not this newest non-emergency one, right?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on August 23, 2021, 03:57:43 PM
I'll ask again. The Polio vaccine had political pressure behind it, right?
We established procedures for FDA approval after the Polio vaccine, right?
There is no allegation this new approval of the Covid-19 vaccine bypassed those procedures, right? The emergency validation did, but not this newest non-emergency one, right?
I just pointed out that the pressure wasn't equivalent.

And there are plenty of allegations that the covid-19 vaccine bypassed those procedures. Just look at the compressed time frame.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Eirikrautha on August 23, 2021, 04:48:26 PM
FDA grants full (non-experimental) approval to Pfizer Covid-19 Vaccine (https://www.cnbc.com/2021/08/23/fda-pfizer-biontech-covid-vaccine-wins-full-approval-clearing-path-to-mandates.html).

So, about that "experimental non-approved" excuse...?
Yes, I'm sure a rushed and politically-driven approval will allay everyone's concerns.

I am sure you can point to FDA approval of a vaccine which had no political drive behind it? The Polio vaccine surely did.
Google "Cutter Vaccine."  120,000 administered, 40,000 sick, 51 paralyzed, 5 dead.  All in the rush to get the polio vaccine out.  Even your own examples defeat you.  You really are a buffoon.

(Brace for the 10 paragraph response that nitpicks minute details to prove that his flippant generalized response didn't actually refer to polio vaccine mistakes, and oh, yeah, in another thread last week you didn't say exactly what he thought you should say, so that means you're a totalitarian, too!)

No moronboy that's WHY I cited that. The polio vaccine had terrible issues, and yet WERE ALL COOL WITH IT. It had political pressure, and yet WERE ALL COOL WITH IT. Relative to this vaccine, I think you could say the Polio vaccine had more issues and political pressure behind it than this one, right? Is your tiny brain getting my point yet?
"WERE [I can't tell if you meant "We're", as "were" makes no sense without a subject] ALL COOL WITH IT."  No, the people at that time were not "cool" with it.  They were horrified, and that led to many of the protocols that the FDA is accelerating/bypassing here (see: Phase 3 trials of the Pfizer vaccine are NOT RCTs).  And "we're" not "cool" with it, either, as none of us were adults when this happened (in 1955).  So no, no one was cool with the polio vaccine giving kids polio. 

Honestly, I expected word-parsing and dodging, and not that you'd go full retard supporting faulty vaccines because they were politically expedient.  Because your "we" doesn't include me, but it definitely includes you...
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on August 23, 2021, 04:49:55 PM
I'll ask again. The Polio vaccine had political pressure behind it, right?
We established procedures for FDA approval after the Polio vaccine, right?
There is no allegation this new approval of the Covid-19 vaccine bypassed those procedures, right? The emergency validation did, but not this newest non-emergency one, right?
I just pointed out that the pressure wasn't equivalent.

And there are plenty of allegations that the covid-19 vaccine bypassed those procedures. Just look at the compressed time frame.

Time frame is not one of the criteria for the standards for FDA approval. What standard for FDA approval was bypassed? It's the same approval procedure used for all vaccines. It passed, legitimately, using established procedure. So what's the breach in protocol?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on August 23, 2021, 04:52:04 PM
FDA grants full (non-experimental) approval to Pfizer Covid-19 Vaccine (https://www.cnbc.com/2021/08/23/fda-pfizer-biontech-covid-vaccine-wins-full-approval-clearing-path-to-mandates.html).

So, about that "experimental non-approved" excuse...?
Yes, I'm sure a rushed and politically-driven approval will allay everyone's concerns.

I am sure you can point to FDA approval of a vaccine which had no political drive behind it? The Polio vaccine surely did.
Google "Cutter Vaccine."  120,000 administered, 40,000 sick, 51 paralyzed, 5 dead.  All in the rush to get the polio vaccine out.  Even your own examples defeat you.  You really are a buffoon.

(Brace for the 10 paragraph response that nitpicks minute details to prove that his flippant generalized response didn't actually refer to polio vaccine mistakes, and oh, yeah, in another thread last week you didn't say exactly what he thought you should say, so that means you're a totalitarian, too!)

No moronboy that's WHY I cited that. The polio vaccine had terrible issues, and yet WERE ALL COOL WITH IT. It had political pressure, and yet WERE ALL COOL WITH IT. Relative to this vaccine, I think you could say the Polio vaccine had more issues and political pressure behind it than this one, right? Is your tiny brain getting my point yet?
"WERE [I can't tell if you meant "We're", as "were" makes no sense without a subject] ALL COOL WITH IT."  No, the people at that time were not "cool" with it.  They were horrified, and that led to many of the protocols that the FDA is accelerating/bypassing here (see: Phase 3 trials of the Pfizer vaccine are NOT RCTs).  And "we're" not "cool" with it, either, as none of us were adults when this happened (in 1955).  So no, no one was cool with the polio vaccine giving kids polio. 

Honestly, I expected word-parsing and dodging, and not that you'd go full retard supporting faulty vaccines because they were politically expedient.  Because your "we" doesn't include me, but it definitely includes you...

The FDA didn't bypass any procedures in approving the vaccine. They bypassed some in the emergency approval but not this one. "Time frame" isn't a standard - there are all these hoops you have to go through to clear a vaccine and this one cleared them all. If you disagree, show me a procedure they bypassed and don't fucking guess or speculate actually show me a procedure they actually bypassed as opposed to one you think they might have based on your extensive education in FDA vaccine approval procedures.

I know my asking you to support your allegations is something you're uncomfortable with. After all, it's why you asked that I be banned, right?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: DocJones on August 23, 2021, 04:53:06 PM
Is it true that more people are being beaten by police in Australia for not wearing face burkas than Taliban beating women in Afghanistan for not wear full burkas?
  :-P
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on August 23, 2021, 05:05:03 PM
“And you know what? I believe totally in your freedoms. I do. You’ve got to do what you have to do,” Trump said. “But, I recommend: take the vaccines. I did it. It’s good. Take the vaccines.” - Trump. Yesterday.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on August 23, 2021, 05:08:27 PM
I'll ask again. The Polio vaccine had political pressure behind it, right?
We established procedures for FDA approval after the Polio vaccine, right?
There is no allegation this new approval of the Covid-19 vaccine bypassed those procedures, right? The emergency validation did, but not this newest non-emergency one, right?
I just pointed out that the pressure wasn't equivalent.

And there are plenty of allegations that the covid-19 vaccine bypassed those procedures. Just look at the compressed time frame.

Time frame is not one of the criteria for the standards for FDA approval. What standard for FDA approval was bypassed? It's the same approval procedure used for all vaccines. It passed, legitimately, using established procedure. So what's the breach in protocol?
The time frame is absolutely essential to the process. Waiting to see what happens is the primary reason why phase I through III testing normally takes a half a dozen years or more, and why phase IV testing is normally continued long after formal approval. And it's not something that can be expedited, because you can't accelerate the appearance of unknown side effects.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Eirikrautha on August 23, 2021, 05:08:34 PM
FDA grants full (non-experimental) approval to Pfizer Covid-19 Vaccine (https://www.cnbc.com/2021/08/23/fda-pfizer-biontech-covid-vaccine-wins-full-approval-clearing-path-to-mandates.html).

So, about that "experimental non-approved" excuse...?
Yes, I'm sure a rushed and politically-driven approval will allay everyone's concerns.

I am sure you can point to FDA approval of a vaccine which had no political drive behind it? The Polio vaccine surely did.
Google "Cutter Vaccine."  120,000 administered, 40,000 sick, 51 paralyzed, 5 dead.  All in the rush to get the polio vaccine out.  Even your own examples defeat you.  You really are a buffoon.

(Brace for the 10 paragraph response that nitpicks minute details to prove that his flippant generalized response didn't actually refer to polio vaccine mistakes, and oh, yeah, in another thread last week you didn't say exactly what he thought you should say, so that means you're a totalitarian, too!)

No moronboy that's WHY I cited that. The polio vaccine had terrible issues, and yet WERE ALL COOL WITH IT. It had political pressure, and yet WERE ALL COOL WITH IT. Relative to this vaccine, I think you could say the Polio vaccine had more issues and political pressure behind it than this one, right? Is your tiny brain getting my point yet?
"WERE [I can't tell if you meant "We're", as "were" makes no sense without a subject] ALL COOL WITH IT."  No, the people at that time were not "cool" with it.  They were horrified, and that led to many of the protocols that the FDA is accelerating/bypassing here (see: Phase 3 trials of the Pfizer vaccine are NOT RCTs).  And "we're" not "cool" with it, either, as none of us were adults when this happened (in 1955).  So no, no one was cool with the polio vaccine giving kids polio. 

Honestly, I expected word-parsing and dodging, and not that you'd go full retard supporting faulty vaccines because they were politically expedient.  Because your "we" doesn't include me, but it definitely includes you...

The FDA didn't bypass any procedures in approving the vaccine. They bypassed some in the emergency approval but not this one. "Time frame" isn't a standard - there are all these hoops you have to go through to clear a vaccine and this one cleared them all. If you disagree, show me a procedure they bypassed and don't fucking guess or speculate actually show me a procedure they actually bypassed as opposed to one you think they might have based on your extensive education in FDA vaccine approval procedures.

I know my asking you to support your allegations is something you're uncomfortable with. After all, it's why you asked that I be banned, right?
No one wants you banned (And I defy your lying ass to quote where I've requested you be banned).  You're so much of a joke that you are a better argument against your own points than your opponents.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on August 23, 2021, 05:12:57 PM
I'll ask again. The Polio vaccine had political pressure behind it, right?
We established procedures for FDA approval after the Polio vaccine, right?
There is no allegation this new approval of the Covid-19 vaccine bypassed those procedures, right? The emergency validation did, but not this newest non-emergency one, right?
I just pointed out that the pressure wasn't equivalent.

And there are plenty of allegations that the covid-19 vaccine bypassed those procedures. Just look at the compressed time frame.

Time frame is not one of the criteria for the standards for FDA approval. What standard for FDA approval was bypassed? It's the same approval procedure used for all vaccines. It passed, legitimately, using established procedure. So what's the breach in protocol?
The time frame is absolutely essential to the process. Waiting to see what happens is the primary reason why phase I through III testing normally takes a half a dozen years or more, and why phase IV testing is normally continued long after formal approval. And it's not something that can be expedited, because you can't accelerate the appearance of unknown side effects.

Hey doctor, please link to that. Stop with the bullshit "this is how I think it works so I am going to declare it fact" and if you have EVIDENCE this newest approval violated some protocol for time frame, link to it. Otherwise it's just Pat's Hot Take.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on August 23, 2021, 05:15:15 PM
(https://i.ibb.co/GcYDHgf/vax.jpg)
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on August 23, 2021, 05:17:25 PM
FDA grants full (non-experimental) approval to Pfizer Covid-19 Vaccine (https://www.cnbc.com/2021/08/23/fda-pfizer-biontech-covid-vaccine-wins-full-approval-clearing-path-to-mandates.html).

So, about that "experimental non-approved" excuse...?
Yes, I'm sure a rushed and politically-driven approval will allay everyone's concerns.

I am sure you can point to FDA approval of a vaccine which had no political drive behind it? The Polio vaccine surely did.
Google "Cutter Vaccine."  120,000 administered, 40,000 sick, 51 paralyzed, 5 dead.  All in the rush to get the polio vaccine out.  Even your own examples defeat you.  You really are a buffoon.

(Brace for the 10 paragraph response that nitpicks minute details to prove that his flippant generalized response didn't actually refer to polio vaccine mistakes, and oh, yeah, in another thread last week you didn't say exactly what he thought you should say, so that means you're a totalitarian, too!)

No moronboy that's WHY I cited that. The polio vaccine had terrible issues, and yet WERE ALL COOL WITH IT. It had political pressure, and yet WERE ALL COOL WITH IT. Relative to this vaccine, I think you could say the Polio vaccine had more issues and political pressure behind it than this one, right? Is your tiny brain getting my point yet?
"WERE [I can't tell if you meant "We're", as "were" makes no sense without a subject] ALL COOL WITH IT."  No, the people at that time were not "cool" with it.  They were horrified, and that led to many of the protocols that the FDA is accelerating/bypassing here (see: Phase 3 trials of the Pfizer vaccine are NOT RCTs).  And "we're" not "cool" with it, either, as none of us were adults when this happened (in 1955).  So no, no one was cool with the polio vaccine giving kids polio. 

Honestly, I expected word-parsing and dodging, and not that you'd go full retard supporting faulty vaccines because they were politically expedient.  Because your "we" doesn't include me, but it definitely includes you...

The FDA didn't bypass any procedures in approving the vaccine. They bypassed some in the emergency approval but not this one. "Time frame" isn't a standard - there are all these hoops you have to go through to clear a vaccine and this one cleared them all. If you disagree, show me a procedure they bypassed and don't fucking guess or speculate actually show me a procedure they actually bypassed as opposed to one you think they might have based on your extensive education in FDA vaccine approval procedures.

I know my asking you to support your allegations is something you're uncomfortable with. After all, it's why you asked that I be banned, right?
No one wants you banned

In response to what you had said about me:


Yes you do need to get ban.  Your not here for a conversation your here to shut us up and piss on our actual concerns.  Not only that, but your a fucking traitor to your country, to everything that is good, and sold yourself off like a whore like the rest of your neo con kin.

Which met with silence of course from you, though he was saying that from your quote.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on August 23, 2021, 05:18:22 PM
Hey doctor, please link to that. Stop with the bullshit "this is how I think it works so I am going to declare it fact" and if you have EVIDENCE this newest approval violated some protocol for time frame, link to it. Otherwise it's just Pat's Hot Take.
Link what? Are you seriously arguing that waiting to see if side effect shows up over the course of 9 months[1] is exactly the same as waiting to see if any side effects show up over 6 years[2]? That's like demanding someone prove that water is wet. I chose that specific example because it's the one thing requires no further knowledge of the procedures or medical processes, and can't be reasonable debated. No checklist will dilate time.

[1] The period of Phase I-III testing for the Pfizer vaccine
[2] A reasonable average for a traditional vaccine
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on August 23, 2021, 05:21:33 PM
Hey doctor, please link to that. Stop with the bullshit "this is how I think it works so I am going to declare it fact" and if you have EVIDENCE this newest approval violated some protocol for time frame, link to it. Otherwise it's just Pat's Hot Take.
Link what? Are you seriously arguing that waiting to see if side effect shows up over the course of 9 months[1] is exactly the same as waiting to see if any side effects show up over 6 years[2]? That's like demanding someone prove that water is wet. I chose that specific example because it's the one thing requires no further knowledge of the procedures or medical processes, and can't be reasonable debated. No checklist will dilate time.

[1] The period of Phase I-III testing for the Pfizer vaccine
[2] A reasonable average for a traditional vaccine

So no link, doctor?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on August 23, 2021, 05:22:37 PM
More on the "Only the elderly or people with comorbidities die from Covid" category. Yet another young, healthy, active, not obese guy dies from Covid (https://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/2021/08/23/though-young-healthy-unvaccinated-father-dies-covid/?fbclid=IwAR09S3U9j3P3yH_eWRHf1dKYtq0if04fGfLE-RWqLWliW208TZIn6KVniVc).

From the article:

“Josh was completely healthy, active, not a smoker,” she said. He would have turned 37 on Saturday.

Doctors say they are seeing a spike in cases among young adults and children as the highly contagious delta variant sweeps through unvaccinated populations. Medical officials say there is conflicting information on whether it makes people more severely ill or whether young people are more vulnerable to it, but it’s clear the contagiousness means more young people and children are getting sick.

“There is no question that the average age of people who are being hospitalized is going down,” State Health Officer Scott Harris said Friday.

“I don’t know if it’s clear that delta is worse in that age group or worse than any of the strains we’ve seen before. ... But what you have though is one that is just much, much more transmissible. Because seniors are the ones that are predominately the vaccinated population in our state, the most vulnerable are these younger people. So you see them getting infected at much higher rates than we had before.”

In the past four weeks, people ages 25 to 49 years, made up 14% of all COVID deaths in the state. And people 50 to 64 years made up about 29%.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on August 23, 2021, 05:23:42 PM
Hey doctor, please link to that. Stop with the bullshit "this is how I think it works so I am going to declare it fact" and if you have EVIDENCE this newest approval violated some protocol for time frame, link to it. Otherwise it's just Pat's Hot Take.
Link what? Are you seriously arguing that waiting to see if side effect shows up over the course of 9 months[1] is exactly the same as waiting to see if any side effects show up over 6 years[2]? That's like demanding someone prove that water is wet. I chose that specific example because it's the one thing requires no further knowledge of the procedures or medical processes, and can't be reasonable debated. No checklist will dilate time.

[1] The period of Phase I-III testing for the Pfizer vaccine
[2] A reasonable average for a traditional vaccine

So no link, doctor?
To what, fuckhead?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ratman_tf on August 23, 2021, 05:52:25 PM
“And you know what? I believe totally in your freedoms. I do. You’ve got to do what you have to do,” Trump said. “But, I recommend: take the vaccines. I did it. It’s good. Take the vaccines.” - Trump. Yesterday.

So? I don't trust Trump anymore than I trust Biden to dispense medical advice.

*Edited, replied to wrong post*
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ratman_tf on August 23, 2021, 05:53:16 PM
(https://i.ibb.co/GcYDHgf/vax.jpg)

I love this meme. It shows that people don't take concerns about the vaccinations seriously, and they just want to force people to get jabbed out of spite.

Fuck 'em.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ratman_tf on August 23, 2021, 05:55:58 PM
More on the "Only the elderly or people with comorbidities die from Covid" category. Yet another young, healthy, active, not obese guy dies from Covid (https://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/2021/08/23/though-young-healthy-unvaccinated-father-dies-covid/?fbclid=IwAR09S3U9j3P3yH_eWRHf1dKYtq0if04fGfLE-RWqLWliW208TZIn6KVniVc).

Wow. I can link to a news report of a person dying from Covid while fully vaccinated.

https://krcrtv.com/news/coronavirus/fully-vaccinated-shasta-county-man-dies-from-covid-19

Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on August 23, 2021, 05:57:51 PM
Shit Meme edit
Considering the track record of phizer in my family (and israel), this makes me distrust the FDA more then trust phizer.

And Im vaccinated with Phizer.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on August 23, 2021, 06:01:55 PM
So? I don't trust Trump anymore than I trust Biden to dispense medical advice.
I think you quoted the wrong post.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on August 23, 2021, 06:08:23 PM
Unclean! Unclean!

South Australians returning home are now required to put police signs in front of their homes warning everyone away.

Naturally, there will be regular compliance checks.

https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/australia/sa-residents-in-home-quarantine-must-display-police-sign-at-homes/ar-AANA9vt
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Shasarak on August 23, 2021, 06:10:01 PM
Wow. I can link to a news report of a person dying from Covid while fully vaccinated.

https://krcrtv.com/news/coronavirus/fully-vaccinated-shasta-county-man-dies-from-covid-19

He was not triple vaccinated so does not count.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Eirikrautha on August 23, 2021, 06:17:36 PM
In response to what you had said about me:


Yes you do need to get ban.  Your not here for a conversation your here to shut us up and piss on our actual concerns.  Not only that, but your a fucking traitor to your country, to everything that is good, and sold yourself off like a whore like the rest of your neo con kin.

Which met with silence of course from you, though he was saying that from your quote.
Wait, are you seriously saying that, because I never responded to that other post, it means I said that?  Silence means agreement?  Is that what you think when it comes to consent (are you some kind of rape appologist)?!?

I never said you should be banned.  You directly claimed I did (shall I quote it for you?).  I demanded proof of your claim, and you present someone else's post that I never even responded to?

Ladies and gentlemen, this is exhibit A why Mistwell is a liar who never responds in good faith.  I want your lying ass to keep posting here, so everyone can see the sort of morally bankrupt pond scum that holds the positions you hold.  Either post where I expressed a desire for you to be banned, or admit you are an untrustworthy liar.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on August 23, 2021, 06:18:11 PM
Australia is now shooting impounded puppies to prevent volunteers at an animal shelter from traveling to rescue them.
https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/rescue-dogs-shot-dead-by-nsw-council-due-to-covid-19-restrictions-20210821-p58ksh.html

Australians on Australia: "We're growing so used to this insanity that what seems mad to most of the world has been normalized here."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBzxaiY-T_o

Australia's "worst of the worst":
https://twitter.com/CharlieEmmaUK/status/1429471216260235266
"It's just what has to be done" is chilling.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ghostmaker on August 23, 2021, 06:37:34 PM
https://twitter.com/primalpoly/status/1429538484503470085

Goodness, there's a super-spreader if I ever saw one... oh wait, just Dems, so magic.

Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ratman_tf on August 23, 2021, 08:03:57 PM
So? I don't trust Trump anymore than I trust Biden to dispense medical advice.
I think you quoted the wrong post.

My bad. Edited.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: FelixGamingX1 on August 23, 2021, 08:14:58 PM
Australia's "worst of the worst":
https://twitter.com/CharlieEmmaUK/status/1429471216260235266
"It's just what has to be done" is chilling.

The dude is 27, and has a huge bald spot? Wow! Should’ve gotten vaxxed.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Snowman0147 on August 24, 2021, 12:37:01 AM
I know my asking you to support your allegations is something you're uncomfortable with. After all, it's why you asked that I be banned, right?

Evidence as to why you need to get banned.  Never had Eirikrautha said you need to get banned.  I and I mean I said you need to get banned.  The fact your rubbing it on Eirikrautha when he is in fact innocent of such a statement proves your not here to have a conversation.  You just want to be a shit.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Snowman0147 on August 24, 2021, 12:39:29 AM
Wait, are you seriously saying that, because I never responded to that other post, it means I said that?  Silence means agreement?  Is that what you think when it comes to consent (are you some kind of rape appologist)?!?

I never said you should be banned.  You directly claimed I did (shall I quote it for you?).  I demanded proof of your claim, and you present someone else's post that I never even responded to?

Ladies and gentlemen, this is exhibit A why Mistwell is a liar who never responds in good faith.  I want your lying ass to keep posting here, so everyone can see the sort of morally bankrupt pond scum that holds the positions you hold.  Either post where I expressed a desire for you to be banned, or admit you are an untrustworthy liar.

I am sorry your dragged into this.  Mistwell should had left you alone.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Snowman0147 on August 24, 2021, 12:57:27 AM
Australia is now shooting impounded puppies to prevent volunteers at an animal shelter from traveling to rescue them.
https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/rescue-dogs-shot-dead-by-nsw-council-due-to-covid-19-restrictions-20210821-p58ksh.htm

If your killing dogs, puppies, and other animals to prevent people from taking care of them you cross a line of morality that should never be crossed.  Covid is not even close as deadly as the fear mongering media made it out to be.  Those animals had no reason to be killed.  Zero reason for this senseless slaughter.  People shouldn't abuse animals.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on August 24, 2021, 05:24:28 AM
UK data keeps on getting worse (for the jabbed). See here (Table 5 again): https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1009243/Technical_Briefing_20.pdf

Of 742 deaths from the "Delta variant", 402 were "fully vaccinated", another 79 had been jabbed once, only 253 unvaccinated. Worse still, the vaccinated were 47,008 "cases" and the unvaccinated 151,054 "cases". Three times as many "cases" in the unjabbed, yet fewer deaths.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: dkabq on August 24, 2021, 07:33:37 AM
UK data keeps on getting worse (for the jabbed). See here (Table 5 again): https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1009243/Technical_Briefing_20.pdf

Of 742 deaths from the "Delta variant", 402 were "fully vaccinated", another 79 had been jabbed once, only 253 unvaccinated. Worse still, the vaccinated were 47,008 "cases" and the unvaccinated 151,054 "cases". Three times as many "cases" in the unjabbed, yet fewer deaths.

Interesting.

While ~66% of the UK pop is <50, they are over-represented (compared to pop >= 50) in terms of cases (~8x), emergency care visits (~4x), and hospital admissions (~2x). But in terms of deaths, it is the >= 50 pop that is over-represented (~9x). So, in terms of deaths, Delta is similar to the original virus. And, apparently, being old is a larger driver towards death than the "jab" is a driver away from death.

Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: FelixGamingX1 on August 24, 2021, 08:01:31 AM
Australia is now shooting impounded puppies to prevent volunteers at an animal shelter from traveling to rescue them.
https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/rescue-dogs-shot-dead-by-nsw-council-due-to-covid-19-restrictions-20210821-p58ksh.htm

If your killing dogs, puppies, and other animals to prevent people from taking care of them you cross a line of morality that should never be crossed.  Covid is not even close as deadly as the fear mongering media made it out to be.  Those animals had no reason to be killed.  Zero reason for this senseless slaughter.  People shouldn't abuse animals.

They’re a strange bunch. I most certainly will never participate in any type of aid should something similar to 2020’s brushfires happen again. It takes a real monster to kill a defenseless animal.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on August 24, 2021, 08:05:46 AM
  Weapons of Mass Destruction.  Spreading Democracy.  Not quite sure how it is hard to understand that a federal government that overtly lies and deceives the public can not understand how it seems to be running short on good will.

Except they lied to the people during the years other vaccines were approved and you (I think?) were cool with those vaccines? Shoot we lied ABOUT vaccines (Tuskegee experiment) and you were (I think?) cool with those vaccines.

  You might want to stop thinking then.   I
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ghostmaker on August 24, 2021, 08:08:50 AM
Australia is now shooting impounded puppies to prevent volunteers at an animal shelter from traveling to rescue them.
https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/rescue-dogs-shot-dead-by-nsw-council-due-to-covid-19-restrictions-20210821-p58ksh.htm

If your killing dogs, puppies, and other animals to prevent people from taking care of them you cross a line of morality that should never be crossed.  Covid is not even close as deadly as the fear mongering media made it out to be.  Those animals had no reason to be killed.  Zero reason for this senseless slaughter.  People shouldn't abuse animals.
If Aussies started hanging their cops and politicians tomorrow, I'd cheer.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on August 24, 2021, 08:58:12 AM
“And you know what? I believe totally in your freedoms. I do. You’ve got to do what you have to do,” Trump said. “But, I recommend: take the vaccines. I did it. It’s good. Take the vaccines.” - Trump. Yesterday.

 "There's an old saying in Tennessee—I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee—that says, 'Fool me once, shame on...shame on you. Fool me—you can't get fooled again.'" One of your thought leaders, George Jr.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on August 24, 2021, 09:02:09 AM
Clearly the vaccine has different impacts based on your political affiliation.  For registered Democrats, affiliated Independents and more liberal political parties it saves lives and reduces the severity of the disease.  For Republicans and conservatives in general, it targets their reproductive organs, shrinking their testicles/ovaries and making them infertile. 

As long as people in rural areas agree not to come into the city where Democrats are shedding virus everywhere because of their vaccine, I think we'll all be fine. 

I mean, except for the people who die needlessly, but that'll just exacerbate the ongoing shift of populations from rural to urban areas.

   This sounds exactly like something a person who only knows what people think from the internet would say.   I suggest you take a walk around and talk to a few people.  I think you are going to find a *shocking* population of always democrats dodging the poke, and a similarly *shocking* number of republicans who got the poke.   

   I think your smug ass is going to feel some kind of way if those rural people decide to not send any food into those cities as well.  Or if those rural truck drivers stop driving to cities in general.  Get your head out of your ass.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 24, 2021, 10:26:28 AM
Clearly the vaccine has different impacts based on your political affiliation.  For registered Democrats, affiliated Independents and more liberal political parties it saves lives and reduces the severity of the disease.  For Republicans and conservatives in general, it targets their reproductive organs, shrinking their testicles/ovaries and making them infertile. 

As long as people in rural areas agree not to come into the city where Democrats are shedding virus everywhere because of their vaccine, I think we'll all be fine. 

I mean, except for the people who die needlessly, but that'll just exacerbate the ongoing shift of populations from rural to urban areas.

   This sounds exactly like something a person who only knows what people think from the internet would say.   I suggest you take a walk around and talk to a few people.  I think you are going to find a *shocking* population of always democrats dodging the poke, and a similarly *shocking* number of republicans who got the poke.   

   I think your smug ass is going to feel some kind of way if those rural people decide to not send any food into those cities as well.  Or if those rural truck drivers stop driving to cities in general.  Get your head out of your ass.
Wait now, this board tends to encourage ignoring any real world experiences as being anecdotes (at best)...

Are you suggesting otherwise?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on August 24, 2021, 12:33:22 PM
Clearly the vaccine has different impacts based on your political affiliation.  For registered Democrats, affiliated Independents and more liberal political parties it saves lives and reduces the severity of the disease.  For Republicans and conservatives in general, it targets their reproductive organs, shrinking their testicles/ovaries and making them infertile. 

As long as people in rural areas agree not to come into the city where Democrats are shedding virus everywhere because of their vaccine, I think we'll all be fine. 

I mean, except for the people who die needlessly, but that'll just exacerbate the ongoing shift of populations from rural to urban areas.

   This sounds exactly like something a person who only knows what people think from the internet would say.   I suggest you take a walk around and talk to a few people.  I think you are going to find a *shocking* population of always democrats dodging the poke, and a similarly *shocking* number of republicans who got the poke.   

   I think your smug ass is going to feel some kind of way if those rural people decide to not send any food into those cities as well.  Or if those rural truck drivers stop driving to cities in general.  Get your head out of your ass.
Wait now, this board tends to encourage ignoring any real world experiences as being anecdotes (at best)...

Are you suggesting otherwise?

   I think too much internet is bleeding into meat space, but there is still a real world out there, and people spouting off about who they think is or is not vaccinated and using CNN talking points might need to catch a little bit of time away from artificial light.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: FelixGamingX1 on August 24, 2021, 02:58:21 PM
Not cool! https://www.businessinsider.com/florida-doctors-walkout-unvaccinated-patients-surge-2021-8

75 Florida doctors stage a walk out!? Just because they actually get to work. Not enough interns, nurses!? Now the Kings and Queens get to actually do some work and they’re staging a walk out. Shows a lot of people become doctors because mom, dad and ben. No sense of duty, no real purpose.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on August 24, 2021, 03:18:33 PM
Not cool! https://www.businessinsider.com/florida-doctors-walkout-unvaccinated-patients-surge-2021-8

75 Florida doctors stage a walk out!? Just because they actually get to work. Not enough interns, nurses!? Now the Kings and Queens get to actually do some work and they’re staging a walk out. Shows a lot of people become doctors because mom, dad and ben. No sense of duty, no real purpose.

  Seems a little bit like the sort of thing that can endanger a medical license.  If not wanting to work on patients who, in the doctor's view take health risks is a no...Then I guess none of those doctors work on fat people, drug addicts, alcoholics, etc..
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: FelixGamingX1 on August 24, 2021, 03:20:30 PM
Not cool! https://www.businessinsider.com/florida-doctors-walkout-unvaccinated-patients-surge-2021-8

75 Florida doctors stage a walk out!? Just because they actually get to work. Not enough interns, nurses!? Now the Kings and Queens get to actually do some work and they’re staging a walk out. Shows a lot of people become doctors because mom, dad and ben. No sense of duty, no real purpose.

  Seems a little bit like the sort of thing that can endanger a medical license.  If not wanting to work on patients who, in the doctor's view take health risks is a no...Then I guess none of those doctors work on fat people, drug addicts, alcoholics, etc..

Beyooond the people.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on August 24, 2021, 03:25:13 PM
My sister in law investigates for the State medical board when a doctor has a serious complaint against him/her.  Some of the shit I have heard the past year would make the hair on the back of your neck stand up.   I want to think most doctors go into the profession to be caretakers and help those in need.  But from her, and from what I hear from a nurse friend....seems a few sociopaths make the cut as well.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on August 24, 2021, 04:07:57 PM
Ooops, now deaths as well as infections are starting to rise in "fully vaccinated" Israel. Almost as though the jabs don't work, or worse still make people even more ill.

If only people had warned of that before everyone rushed out to try to vaccinate their way out of this...
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 24, 2021, 04:50:29 PM
Not cool! https://www.businessinsider.com/florida-doctors-walkout-unvaccinated-patients-surge-2021-8

75 Florida doctors stage a walk out!? Just because they actually get to work. Not enough interns, nurses!? Now the Kings and Queens get to actually do some work and they’re staging a walk out. Shows a lot of people become doctors because mom, dad and ben. No sense of duty, no real purpose.

  Seems a little bit like the sort of thing that can endanger a medical license.  If not wanting to work on patients who, in the doctor's view take health risks is a no...Then I guess none of those doctors work on fat people, drug addicts, alcoholics, etc..
It was a symbolic walkout that lasted only a few minutes. The doctors likely had their cells on them and were never out of contact, and it's not like they are the ones directly caring for the patients under most circumstances (I seriously doubt any walked out during procedures, but let me know if you find any contrary evidence on that).
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on August 24, 2021, 04:54:53 PM
Not cool! https://www.businessinsider.com/florida-doctors-walkout-unvaccinated-patients-surge-2021-8

75 Florida doctors stage a walk out!? Just because they actually get to work. Not enough interns, nurses!? Now the Kings and Queens get to actually do some work and they’re staging a walk out. Shows a lot of people become doctors because mom, dad and ben. No sense of duty, no real purpose.

  Seems a little bit like the sort of thing that can endanger a medical license.  If not wanting to work on patients who, in the doctor's view take health risks is a no...Then I guess none of those doctors work on fat people, drug addicts, alcoholics, etc..
It was a symbolic walkout that lasted only a few minutes. The doctors likely had their cells on them and were never out of contact, and it's not like they are the ones directly caring for the patients under most circumstances (I seriously doubt any walked out during procedures, but let me know if you find any contrary evidence on that).

  I am sure none did, or would.  They were LARP'ing.  Which was why i was wondering about those licenses. 

  Edited to add: but if my sister-in-law moves to Florida and continues investigating doctors I am sure I can tell you all sorts of things un related to Covid right near you that might make your hair stand up.  Then again, I am sure you have a run in with a doctor of questionable character from time to time.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on August 24, 2021, 04:56:12 PM
My sister in law investigates for the State medical board when a doctor has a serious complaint against him/her.  Some of the shit I have heard the past year would make the hair on the back of your neck stand up.   I want to think most doctors go into the profession to be caretakers and help those in need.  But from her, and from what I hear from a nurse friend....seems a few sociopaths make the cut as well.
Bad incentives. The vast majority of doctors still become doctors because they want to help people, but the system in which they work focuses them on all the wrong things. And of course a few get into the business to exploit the system, rather than help.

If you're interested enough for a hour plus listen, there's a good breakdown here:
https://accadandkoka.com/episodes/episode165-2/
They're specifically talking about the Canadian system and socialized medicine, but all the general principles apply to the US system as well, which has all the same problems. They talk extensively about how things changed, and how it's warped practice.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on August 24, 2021, 04:59:17 PM
My sister in law investigates for the State medical board when a doctor has a serious complaint against him/her.  Some of the shit I have heard the past year would make the hair on the back of your neck stand up.   I want to think most doctors go into the profession to be caretakers and help those in need.  But from her, and from what I hear from a nurse friend....seems a few sociopaths make the cut as well.
Bad incentives. The vast majority of doctors still become doctors because they want to help people, but the system in which they work focuses them on all the wrong things. And of course a few get into the business to exploit the system, rather than help.

If you're interested enough for a hour plus listen, there's a good breakdown here:
https://accadandkoka.com/episodes/episode165-2/
They're specifically talking about the Canadian system and socialized medicine, but all the general principles apply to the US system as well, which has all the same problems. They talk extensively about how things changed, and how it's warped practice.

  Well, I do not think a dude who checks a teen's pulse by sticking his finger in her vajayjay is exploiting a system, I also do not think a doctor with full blown covid who shows up to work at the practice, and works for 5 hours (this is after being Covid positive for 4 days, and running a fever at work) is exploiting a system.  Those are full blown sociopaths.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on August 24, 2021, 05:20:17 PM
  Well, I do not think a dude who checks a teen's pulse by sticking his finger in her vajayjay is exploiting a system, I also do not think a doctor with full blown covid who shows up to work at the practice, and works for 5 hours (this is after being Covid positive for 4 days, and running a fever at work) is exploiting a system.  Those are full blown sociopaths.
About two weeks ago, I was within earshot when a registered nurse told her manager that she'd spent the weekend with her in-laws, who tested positive for covid-19. The RN had come in, worked her entire shift in an open office with multiple patients, and only brought it up because "she was trying to quarantine a bit", and wanted to know if her manager (who is an administrator not a medical professional) wanted her to wipe down her computer before she left.

Though I think that was more incompetence than sociopathy.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Shasarak on August 24, 2021, 05:24:23 PM
My sister in law investigates for the State medical board when a doctor has a serious complaint against him/her.  Some of the shit I have heard the past year would make the hair on the back of your neck stand up.   I want to think most doctors go into the profession to be caretakers and help those in need.  But from her, and from what I hear from a nurse friend....seems a few sociopaths make the cut as well.
Bad incentives. The vast majority of doctors still become doctors because they want to help people, but the system in which they work focuses them on all the wrong things. And of course a few get into the business to exploit the system, rather than help.

Some dude was telling me that Doctors in the USA can be sued if they spend more time on one of their patients then another.

So take your 5 minutes and be grateful.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on August 24, 2021, 05:25:51 PM
  Well, I do not think a dude who checks a teen's pulse by sticking his finger in her vajayjay is exploiting a system, I also do not think a doctor with full blown covid who shows up to work at the practice, and works for 5 hours (this is after being Covid positive for 4 days, and running a fever at work) is exploiting a system.  Those are full blown sociopaths.
About two weeks ago, I was within earshot when a registered nurse told her manager that she'd spent the weekend with her in-laws, who tested positive for covid-19. The RN had come in, worked her entire shift in an open office with multiple patients, and only brought it up because "she was trying to quarantine a bit", and wanted to know if her manager (who is an administrator not a medical professional) wanted her to wipe down her computer before she left.

Though I think that was more incompetence than sociopathy.

  Incompetence?  nah, she just wanted to make sure to show up and get paid, and she was willing to risk other people to get what she wanted.  She may not be a sociopath, but that is not incompetence.    For now though, I want to assume she had a covid test at least.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 24, 2021, 05:35:18 PM
Not cool! https://www.businessinsider.com/florida-doctors-walkout-unvaccinated-patients-surge-2021-8

75 Florida doctors stage a walk out!? Just because they actually get to work. Not enough interns, nurses!? Now the Kings and Queens get to actually do some work and they’re staging a walk out. Shows a lot of people become doctors because mom, dad and ben. No sense of duty, no real purpose.

  Seems a little bit like the sort of thing that can endanger a medical license.  If not wanting to work on patients who, in the doctor's view take health risks is a no...Then I guess none of those doctors work on fat people, drug addicts, alcoholics, etc..
It was a symbolic walkout that lasted only a few minutes. The doctors likely had their cells on them and were never out of contact, and it's not like they are the ones directly caring for the patients under most circumstances (I seriously doubt any walked out during procedures, but let me know if you find any contrary evidence on that).

  I am sure none did, or would.  They were LARP'ing.  Which was why i was wondering about those licenses. 

  Edited to add: but if my sister-in-law moves to Florida and continues investigating doctors I am sure I can tell you all sorts of things un related to Covid right near you that might make your hair stand up.  Then again, I am sure you have a run in with a doctor of questionable character from time to time.
I read a bit more, the "walk out" was before the doctors began their shift. It was a public statdment, not a walk out.

And yes, I've met several people that have done questionable things in the medical field (although far more of them fall into high risk behaviors than outright malfeasance).
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 24, 2021, 05:37:02 PM
My sister in law investigates for the State medical board when a doctor has a serious complaint against him/her.  Some of the shit I have heard the past year would make the hair on the back of your neck stand up.   I want to think most doctors go into the profession to be caretakers and help those in need.  But from her, and from what I hear from a nurse friend....seems a few sociopaths make the cut as well.
Bad incentives. The vast majority of doctors still become doctors because they want to help people, but the system in which they work focuses them on all the wrong things. And of course a few get into the business to exploit the system, rather than help.

Some dude was telling me that Doctors in the USA can be sued if they spend more time on one of their patients then another.

So take your 5 minutes and be grateful.
That's not entirely accurate, but I think you already know that.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Shasarak on August 24, 2021, 06:03:35 PM
My sister in law investigates for the State medical board when a doctor has a serious complaint against him/her.  Some of the shit I have heard the past year would make the hair on the back of your neck stand up.   I want to think most doctors go into the profession to be caretakers and help those in need.  But from her, and from what I hear from a nurse friend....seems a few sociopaths make the cut as well.
Bad incentives. The vast majority of doctors still become doctors because they want to help people, but the system in which they work focuses them on all the wrong things. And of course a few get into the business to exploit the system, rather than help.

Some dude was telling me that Doctors in the USA can be sued if they spend more time on one of their patients then another.

So take your 5 minutes and be grateful.
That's not entirely accurate, but I think you already know that.

Oh, so Doctors can not get sued for spending more time on one patient then another?

Good to know!
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ghostmaker on August 24, 2021, 07:20:18 PM
Could be true, but that's less about doctors and more about the U.S.'s hilariously fucked up tort/civil suit system.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: FelixGamingX1 on August 24, 2021, 07:29:26 PM
Not cool! https://www.businessinsider.com/florida-doctors-walkout-unvaccinated-patients-surge-2021-8

75 Florida doctors stage a walk out!? Just because they actually get to work. Not enough interns, nurses!? Now the Kings and Queens get to actually do some work and they’re staging a walk out. Shows a lot of people become doctors because mom, dad and ben. No sense of duty, no real purpose.

  Seems a little bit like the sort of thing that can endanger a medical license.  If not wanting to work on patients who, in the doctor's view take health risks is a no...Then I guess none of those doctors work on fat people, drug addicts, alcoholics, etc..
It was a symbolic walkout that lasted only a few minutes. The doctors likely had their cells on them and were never out of contact, and it's not like they are the ones directly caring for the patients under most circumstances (I seriously doubt any walked out during procedures, but let me know if you find any contrary evidence on that).

Beyoooond the people.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on August 24, 2021, 07:42:38 PM
  Well, I do not think a dude who checks a teen's pulse by sticking his finger in her vajayjay is exploiting a system, I also do not think a doctor with full blown covid who shows up to work at the practice, and works for 5 hours (this is after being Covid positive for 4 days, and running a fever at work) is exploiting a system.  Those are full blown sociopaths.
About two weeks ago, I was within earshot when a registered nurse told her manager that she'd spent the weekend with her in-laws, who tested positive for covid-19. The RN had come in, worked her entire shift in an open office with multiple patients, and only brought it up because "she was trying to quarantine a bit", and wanted to know if her manager (who is an administrator not a medical professional) wanted her to wipe down her computer before she left.

Though I think that was more incompetence than sociopathy.

  Incompetence?  nah, she just wanted to make sure to show up and get paid, and she was willing to risk other people to get what she wanted.  She may not be a sociopath, but that is not incompetence.    For now though, I want to assume she had a covid test at least.
If she was motivated by self-interest and a lack of concern for others, she shouldn't even have mentioned her in-laws. That weird confession and the bizarre reference to quarantining are what make me think it's incompetence. And a test wouldn't have shown anything, given the time frame.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 24, 2021, 07:48:00 PM
  Well, I do not think a dude who checks a teen's pulse by sticking his finger in her vajayjay is exploiting a system, I also do not think a doctor with full blown covid who shows up to work at the practice, and works for 5 hours (this is after being Covid positive for 4 days, and running a fever at work) is exploiting a system.  Those are full blown sociopaths.
About two weeks ago, I was within earshot when a registered nurse told her manager that she'd spent the weekend with her in-laws, who tested positive for covid-19. The RN had come in, worked her entire shift in an open office with multiple patients, and only brought it up because "she was trying to quarantine a bit", and wanted to know if her manager (who is an administrator not a medical professional) wanted her to wipe down her computer before she left.

Though I think that was more incompetence than sociopathy.

  Incompetence?  nah, she just wanted to make sure to show up and get paid, and she was willing to risk other people to get what she wanted.  She may not be a sociopath, but that is not incompetence.    For now though, I want to assume she had a covid test at least.
If she was motivated by self-interest and a lack of concern for others, she shouldn't even have mentioned her in-laws. That weird confession and the bizarre reference to quarantining are what make me think it's incompetence. And a test wouldn't have shown anything, given the time frame.
Surprisingly, excessive details (like the in-laws bit) in a story tend to point towards intentional deception.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on August 24, 2021, 07:57:35 PM
  Well, I do not think a dude who checks a teen's pulse by sticking his finger in her vajayjay is exploiting a system, I also do not think a doctor with full blown covid who shows up to work at the practice, and works for 5 hours (this is after being Covid positive for 4 days, and running a fever at work) is exploiting a system.  Those are full blown sociopaths.
About two weeks ago, I was within earshot when a registered nurse told her manager that she'd spent the weekend with her in-laws, who tested positive for covid-19. The RN had come in, worked her entire shift in an open office with multiple patients, and only brought it up because "she was trying to quarantine a bit", and wanted to know if her manager (who is an administrator not a medical professional) wanted her to wipe down her computer before she left.

Though I think that was more incompetence than sociopathy.

  Incompetence?  nah, she just wanted to make sure to show up and get paid, and she was willing to risk other people to get what she wanted.  She may not be a sociopath, but that is not incompetence.    For now though, I want to assume she had a covid test at least.
If she was motivated by self-interest and a lack of concern for others, she shouldn't even have mentioned her in-laws. That weird confession and the bizarre reference to quarantining are what make me think it's incompetence. And a test wouldn't have shown anything, given the time frame.
Surprisingly, excessive details (like the in-laws bit) in a story tend to point towards intentional deception.
Probably a mix of all of them. She's an RN, she knows what quarantine means. And it's not something she learned in school and half-forgot, because the office she works in has had covid scares before, plus they give out Pfizer shots. Most likely, she made a bad medical decision, probably out of self-interest, felt guilty, and came up with a mangled half-justification, half-confession.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on August 24, 2021, 09:01:37 PM
(https://i.ibb.co/GcYDHgf/vax.jpg)

I love this meme. It shows that people don't take concerns about the vaccinations seriously, and they just want to force people to get jabbed out of spite.

Fuck 'em.

Forced? No. Y'all are such fucking snowflakes. Someone telling you they hope you get the vaccine or you should get the vaccine is not anything similar to someone "forcing" you to get the vaccine. I am surprised you didn't use the homophobic "forced down our throats" approach :)

Stop being such a pussy. Disagreement isn't forcing.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on August 24, 2021, 09:06:47 PM
Ooops, now deaths as well as infections are starting to rise in "fully vaccinated" Israel. Almost as though the jabs don't work, or worse still make people even more ill.

If only people had warned of that before everyone rushed out to try to vaccinate their way out of this...

I think you might be the dumbest fucker on this entire message board.

The vaccines wear off after time, which is why sickness and death increase the further you get from your last dose. Which you knew. But even with that, infections and sickness and death are all much lower if you are vaccinated vs unvaccinated. And the claim the vaccines make people even more ill is in fact a sign you're brain damaged.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ratman_tf on August 24, 2021, 09:19:30 PM
(https://i.ibb.co/GcYDHgf/vax.jpg)

I love this meme. It shows that people don't take concerns about the vaccinations seriously, and they just want to force people to get jabbed out of spite.

Fuck 'em.

Forced? No. Y'all are such fucking snowflakes. Someone telling you they hope you get the vaccine or you should get the vaccine is not anything similar to someone "forcing" you to get the vaccine. I am surprised you didn't use the homophobic "forced down our throats" approach :)

Stop being such a pussy. Disagreement isn't forcing.

You know the federal and state governments were drooling over using this as an excuse to make vaccinations mandatory. And "encouraging" private businesses to fall in line.

And your pathetic attempts at insult only show how insecure you are about that reply.

 (https://cell18.in/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/tenor.png)
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on August 24, 2021, 09:52:41 PM
(https://i.ibb.co/GcYDHgf/vax.jpg)

I love this meme. It shows that people don't take concerns about the vaccinations seriously, and they just want to force people to get jabbed out of spite.

Fuck 'em.

Forced? No. Y'all are such fucking snowflakes. Someone telling you they hope you get the vaccine or you should get the vaccine is not anything similar to someone "forcing" you to get the vaccine. I am surprised you didn't use the homophobic "forced down our throats" approach :)

Stop being such a pussy. Disagreement isn't forcing.

You know the federal and state governments were drooling over using this as an excuse to make vaccinations mandatory. And "encouraging" private businesses to fall in line.

And your pathetic attempts at insult only show how insecure you are about that reply.

 (https://cell18.in/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/tenor.png)

Wait am I now the federal and state governments? WTF is wrong with you mang. I am no more responsible for what the Government does than you. I am responsible for the things I say and do, just like you. If I ever say I think you should be forced to be vaccinated then you call me out on that. But I've never said that, despite your constant attempts to strawman me and pretend I have. All I've ever done is offer my opinion and encourage people to get vaccinated. Just like you've offered your opinion and questioned the vaccines. Neither of us is trying to "force" anyone to do anything because of our opinions. So could you please lay off the accusation that I am trying to force someone to be vaccinated just because I disagree with your view about the effectiveness and safety of the vaccines?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on August 24, 2021, 10:13:12 PM
You two are talking past each other.

Mistwell didn't advocate forcing the vaccine on anyone. That's admirable. There's nothing wrong with trying to encourage people, and convince others of their point of view. It's how the free market of ideas works, and is part of a society of voluntary, consensual interactions.

Ratman_tf brings up an important concern. A lot of people who are pushing the vaccines have been advocating forcing medicine on people without their consent. That's despicable. Governments have started imposing those mandates, and have been coercing private businesses to do the same. That goes beyond despicable to tyrannical.

Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on August 25, 2021, 12:21:16 AM
You two are talking past each other.

Mistwell didn't advocate forcing the vaccine on anyone. That's admirable. There's nothing wrong with trying to encourage people, and convince others of their point of view. It's how the free market of ideas works, and is part of a society of voluntary, consensual interactions.

Ratman_tf brings up an important concern. A lot of people who are pushing the vaccines have been advocating forcing medicine on people without their consent. That's despicable. Governments have started imposing those mandates, and have been coercing private businesses to do the same. That goes beyond despicable to tyrannical.

In case it's in question, I don't want the government to force ordinary citizens to get this vaccine. I am cool with schools forcing students to get "regular" vaccines, like Polio and TDAP and your ordinary old vaccines. But not this one because it's so new and people have not had enough time to really absorb enough information to make a decision on it (though I encourage them to make that decision in favor of it).

As for private businesses - actually that's their business. If they want to mandate their employees get an FDA approved vaccine to work there, I am OK with that. I didn't choose to do that with my business, but if some other business wants to do that I think they have every right to do that. I don't think it's up to me or the Government to tell a private business what to do concerning that kind of issue for their employees.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Shasarak on August 25, 2021, 01:12:03 AM
I am just waiting for the Stage 3 safety trials to be completed.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on August 25, 2021, 01:42:39 AM
As for private businesses - actually that's their business. If they want to mandate their employees get an FDA approved vaccine to work there, I am OK with that. I didn't choose to do that with my business, but if some other business wants to do that I think they have every right to do that. I don't think it's up to me or the Government to tell a private business what to do concerning that kind of issue for their employees.
I strongly oppose that for two reasons. One, privacy. Companies shouldn't be able to demand access to the confidential information between a patient and a doctor. Two, they're not making the choice as free actors. The government has exerted great pressure, including implicit threats.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ratman_tf on August 25, 2021, 02:16:21 AM
(https://i.ibb.co/GcYDHgf/vax.jpg)

I love this meme. It shows that people don't take concerns about the vaccinations seriously, and they just want to force people to get jabbed out of spite.

Fuck 'em.

Forced? No. Y'all are such fucking snowflakes. Someone telling you they hope you get the vaccine or you should get the vaccine is not anything similar to someone "forcing" you to get the vaccine. I am surprised you didn't use the homophobic "forced down our throats" approach :)

Stop being such a pussy. Disagreement isn't forcing.

You know the federal and state governments were drooling over using this as an excuse to make vaccinations mandatory. And "encouraging" private businesses to fall in line.

And your pathetic attempts at insult only show how insecure you are about that reply.

 (https://cell18.in/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/tenor.png)

Wait am I now the federal and state governments? WTF is wrong with you mang. I am no more responsible for what the Government does than you. I am responsible for the things I say and do, just like you. If I ever say I think you should be forced to be vaccinated then you call me out on that. But I've never said that, despite your constant attempts to strawman me and pretend I have. All I've ever done is offer my opinion and encourage people to get vaccinated. Just like you've offered your opinion and questioned the vaccines. Neither of us is trying to "force" anyone to do anything because of our opinions. So could you please lay off the accusation that I am trying to force someone to be vaccinated just because I disagree with your view about the effectiveness and safety of the vaccines?

Please show me on those replies where I accused you of anything like that. I posted that I though the meme was stupid and disingenouous and for some reason you took it personally.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Eirikrautha on August 25, 2021, 10:52:23 AM
I am responsible for the things I say and do, just like you. If I ever say I think you should be forced to be vaccinated then you call me out on that. But I've never said that, despite your constant attempts to strawman me and pretend I have.
WHAT?  Ahahahaha!  How can you type that with a straight face, when you IN THIS VERY THREAD demanded me to answer for what someone else wrote.  Are you serious?!?

I swear,  it's like back in the 2000s, when various companies would create accounts on hobby-related boards and hire people to post there in rotation using that account.  It was like talking to someone with multiple personality disorder,  only all of them were stupid.   Did you even read what the earlier "Mistwell" wrote in this thread?

And you wonder why people accuse you of arguing in bad faith...
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on August 25, 2021, 01:29:18 PM
I am just waiting for the Stage 3 safety trials to be completed.

Those were completed last year (https://www.pfizer.com/news/press-release/press-release-detail/pfizer-and-biontech-conclude-phase-3-study-covid-19-vaccine).
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on August 25, 2021, 01:35:29 PM
As for private businesses - actually that's their business. If they want to mandate their employees get an FDA approved vaccine to work there, I am OK with that. I didn't choose to do that with my business, but if some other business wants to do that I think they have every right to do that. I don't think it's up to me or the Government to tell a private business what to do concerning that kind of issue for their employees.
I strongly oppose that for two reasons. One, privacy. Companies shouldn't be able to demand access to the confidential information between a patient and a doctor. Two, they're not making the choice as free actors. The government has exerted great pressure, including implicit threats.

They are making the choice as free actors. No private business has been forced to do this. I own a business, I've felt zero "threats" about it. You're being hyperbolic again.

As for "privacy" that's bunk. HIPPA applies to specific health-related entities, such as insurance providers, health-care clearinghouses, health-care providers and their business associates.  Not to private businesses outside the health care field.

I routinely ask from a note from an employees doctor if they are going to be out sick and nobody has ever claimed "but my privacy!" about that.

All the privacy rules are on health care providers to stop them from sharing information about you without you consent, and none are on private businesses from asking you to provide that information to them from you or else you cannot work there. The business has exactly the same right to ask you to provide that information as you have to decide to not provide it and not work there. Don't be a fucking socialist prick and act like businesses cannot ask about vaccination records. It's a private business for fuck's sake! The government has no right to dictate what they do with that issue. I find it hilarious that apparently you're suddenly pro-business regulations?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on August 25, 2021, 01:38:31 PM
I am responsible for the things I say and do, just like you. If I ever say I think you should be forced to be vaccinated then you call me out on that. But I've never said that, despite your constant attempts to strawman me and pretend I have.
WHAT?  Ahahahaha!  How can you type that with a straight face, when you IN THIS VERY THREAD demanded me to answer for what someone else wrote.  Are you serious?!?

I swear,  it's like back in the 2000s, when various companies would create accounts on hobby-related boards and hire people to post there in rotation using that account.  It was like talking to someone with multiple personality disorder,  only all of them were stupid.   Did you even read what the earlier "Mistwell" wrote in this thread?

And you wonder why people accuse you of arguing in bad faith...

Fair enough. Sorry I confused you for someone else (snowman) in calling for me to be banned for offering a dissenting opinion.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: FelixGamingX1 on August 25, 2021, 01:39:40 PM
Stage 3, 4, 5 will make no difference. Those who don’t want to vax apparently won’t get vaxxed. It’s their body, so.. The issue lies within a fragmented society. Delta will bigen charging $200 for any crew who doesn’t take the jab. End game likely going to be no jab, no problem. But your pocket and social life will ultimately suffer.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on August 25, 2021, 02:09:01 PM
As for private businesses - actually that's their business. If they want to mandate their employees get an FDA approved vaccine to work there, I am OK with that. I didn't choose to do that with my business, but if some other business wants to do that I think they have every right to do that. I don't think it's up to me or the Government to tell a private business what to do concerning that kind of issue for their employees.
I strongly oppose that for two reasons. One, privacy. Companies shouldn't be able to demand access to the confidential information between a patient and a doctor. Two, they're not making the choice as free actors. The government has exerted great pressure, including implicit threats.

They are making the choice as free actors. No private business has been forced to do this. I own a business, I've felt zero "threats" about it. You're being hyperbolic again.

As for "privacy" that's bunk. HIPPA applies to specific health-related entities, such as insurance providers, health-care clearinghouses, health-care providers and their business associates.  Not to private businesses outside the health care field.

I routinely ask from a note from an employees doctor if they are going to be out sick and nobody has ever claimed "but my privacy!" about that.

All the privacy rules are on health care providers to stop them from sharing information about you without you consent, and none are on private businesses from asking you to provide that information to them from you or else you cannot work there. The business has exactly the same right to ask you to provide that information as you have to decide to not provide it and not work there. Don't be a fucking socialist prick and act like businesses cannot ask about vaccination records. It's a private business for fuck's sake! The government has no right to dictate what they do with that issue. I find it hilarious that apparently you're suddenly pro-business regulations?
By that logic, people who pay protection money to the Mafia are acting of their own free will, without any coercion. When the government works hand in hand with many large companies, hands out moneys and favors to their favorites, regulates them, and is threatening to pass laws that will hinder businesses if the businesses don't comply, they're not acting as free agents. It's coercion.

I'm familiar with HIPPA compliance. I'm also familiar with the Bill of Rights. But neither are natural rights, they're laws. And natural rights are not defined by or circumscribed by laws. They're innate, inalienable, and laws that aren't completely unjust should defend them. Starting with a legalistic argument is invalid, because I was never talking about how the law is currently interpreted. I'm talking about basic rights.

And your analogy isn't comparable. If you're ill, and taking a day off, a doctor's note provides a justification for why you shouldn't be penalized for missing work. It also doesn't have to provide any details, beyond that you were sick. That's very different from demanding workers submit themselves to a specific medical procedure of dubious efficacy and unknown long term risks to even go back to work in the first place. Should private businesses be allowed to beat their workers? Let's say it's in your contract. "It's their private business!", right? Socialism! No. Basic rights still exist.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on August 25, 2021, 02:25:19 PM
As for private businesses - actually that's their business. If they want to mandate their employees get an FDA approved vaccine to work there, I am OK with that. I didn't choose to do that with my business, but if some other business wants to do that I think they have every right to do that. I don't think it's up to me or the Government to tell a private business what to do concerning that kind of issue for their employees.
I strongly oppose that for two reasons. One, privacy. Companies shouldn't be able to demand access to the confidential information between a patient and a doctor. Two, they're not making the choice as free actors. The government has exerted great pressure, including implicit threats.

They are making the choice as free actors. No private business has been forced to do this. I own a business, I've felt zero "threats" about it. You're being hyperbolic again.

As for "privacy" that's bunk. HIPPA applies to specific health-related entities, such as insurance providers, health-care clearinghouses, health-care providers and their business associates.  Not to private businesses outside the health care field.

I routinely ask from a note from an employees doctor if they are going to be out sick and nobody has ever claimed "but my privacy!" about that.

All the privacy rules are on health care providers to stop them from sharing information about you without you consent, and none are on private businesses from asking you to provide that information to them from you or else you cannot work there. The business has exactly the same right to ask you to provide that information as you have to decide to not provide it and not work there. Don't be a fucking socialist prick and act like businesses cannot ask about vaccination records. It's a private business for fuck's sake! The government has no right to dictate what they do with that issue. I find it hilarious that apparently you're suddenly pro-business regulations?
By that logic, people who pay protection money to the Mafia are acting of their own free will, without any coercion. When the government works hand in hand with many large companies, hands out moneys and favors to their favorites, regulates them, and is threatening to pass laws that will hinder businesses if the businesses don't comply, they're not acting as free agents. It's coercion.

I'm familiar with HIPPA compliance. I'm also familiar with the Bill of Rights. But neither are natural rights, they're laws. And natural rights are not defined by or circumscribed by laws. They're innate, inalienable, and laws that aren't completely unjust should defend them. Starting with a legalistic argument is invalid, because I was never talking about how the law is currently interpreted. I'm talking about basic rights.

And your analogy isn't comparable. If you're ill, and taking a day off, a doctor's note provides a justification for why you shouldn't be penalized for missing work. It also doesn't have to provide any details, beyond that you were sick. That's very different from demanding workers submit themselves to a specific medical procedure of dubious efficacy and unknown long term risks to even go back to work in the first place. Should private businesses be allowed to beat their workers? Let's say it's in your contract. "It's their private business!", right? Socialism! No. Basic rights still exist.

Oh for fuck's sake not only is the right to privacy not contained in any natural laws written about by any philosopher prior to the founding of the nation, but the US Supreme Court MANUFACTURED THAT RIGHT FROM WHOLE CLOTH when they wrote the Roe vs. Wade decision. That's why they had to come up with that bullshit "Penumbra of the amendments" spin to try and create a right which they knew damn well never previously existed. We all grew up in an era when our home addresses and phone numbers were listed in a big free book everyone got! Privacy was not and was never one of the "natural rights" behind our nation. It's a "new" right created for a "living Constitution" and even with that "flexible interpretation" it never extended to private businesses asking employees for vaccine records. In fact, businesses which send their employees to foreign nations ROUTINELY have always asked for vaccine records for that job BECAUSE IT'S A REQUIREMENT TO TRAVEL. Nobody before claimed this was some privacy right.

Doctors notes provide defense from BEING FIRED for being absent. Not for being paid. You can get a few paid sick days a year by law, but not that many. Beyond that, it's just a reason used to not fire your ass.

As for "beating their workers" hey guess what, there are boxers and wrestlers hired just for that! Nobody is forced to accept a job as a boxer, but if they do accept a job as a boxer they're going to get hit, often, and by the businesses boxing sparing partner. It depends on the job. Nobody has to take that job.

Businesses can freely ask for vaccination records to work there. You are free to not work there. Take your petty little business regulations and shove them. You sound like a Union thug.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on August 25, 2021, 02:25:44 PM
  FDA approved.  I do love those official stamps.  Just like weapons of mass destruction, no troops on the ground, etc.  No thanks.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ghostmaker on August 25, 2021, 02:27:10 PM
Like I said before:

So much for 'my body, my choice'.

Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on August 25, 2021, 02:29:04 PM
  FDA approved.  I do love those official stamps.  Just like weapons of mass destruction, no troops on the ground, etc.  No thanks.

It's funny for a year people here screamed it wasn't even FDA approved and that was in some way meaningful, and now that it's FDA approved they dismiss that as not meaningful. Almost like they were arguing in bad faith for a year!
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on August 25, 2021, 02:29:35 PM
Like I said before:

So much for 'my body, my choice'.

Nobody is forcing you to make that choice.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on August 25, 2021, 02:30:35 PM
  FDA approved.  I do love those official stamps.  Just like weapons of mass destruction, no troops on the ground, etc.  No thanks.

It's funny for a year people here screamed it wasn't even FDA approved and that was in some way meaningful, and now that it's FDA approved they dismiss that as not meaningful. Almost like they were arguing in bad faith for a year!

  Well, I do not care what "people" did.  I did not use the FDA as a reason to do, or not do anything. 
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ghostmaker on August 25, 2021, 02:41:14 PM
Like I said before:

So much for 'my body, my choice'.

Nobody is forcing you to make that choice.
How many hairs are you going to split this time to 'prove' it's not being forced? Do you need help moving those goalposts around?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on August 25, 2021, 02:44:26 PM
Like I said before:

So much for 'my body, my choice'.

Nobody is forcing you to make that choice.

  And maybe no one will.  Maybe Australia is not a beta test.  Maybe the government will not pressure businesses (state nor federal).   But I do think mandating masks is a short step from mandating a shot.  Normies, boomers, and the regular person will accept just about anything as long as you remember to slowly raise the temperature.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on August 25, 2021, 04:04:19 PM
Like I said before:

So much for 'my body, my choice'.

Nobody is forcing you to make that choice.
How many hairs are you going to split this time to 'prove' it's not being forced? Do you need help moving those goalposts around?

It is not being forced. No goalpost moved. You're pretending pressure is force. It's bullshit. You know it's bullshit. Nobody is being forced to get the vaccine no matter how many times you claim that's happening because of "pressure" to get it. Any more than the "pressure" to not get an abortion is "forcing" people to not get an abortion, or pressure to "eat healthy" is forcing you to eat healthy. You know full well what "forced" means, like seatbelt laws or motorcycle helmet laws, and this isn't "forced."

But keep whining bitching moaning and complaining like a fucking snowflake SJW that "societal pressure to conform" is the same as "forced" to do something, you pussy. It's amusing to see you flip like this to behaving like those you've condemned for years once it's an issue which triggers you. Wahhh I am being "forced" to remove my nose ring to work at an upscale retail store. Wahhh I'm being "forced" to get a vaccine to work at a retail store which deals with the public on a constant basis. Wahh wahh wahh, I'm triggered! My rights!
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: moonsweeper on August 25, 2021, 04:17:40 PM
  FDA approved.  I do love those official stamps.  Just like weapons of mass destruction, no troops on the ground, etc.  No thanks.

It's funny for a year people here screamed it wasn't even FDA approved and that was in some way meaningful, and now that it's FDA approved they dismiss that as not meaningful. Almost like they were arguing in bad faith for a year!

1.  Because the approval administrative procedures were circumvented the FDA approval is questionable, at best...

2.  None of the available jabs are actually approved, the Pfizer shot that was 'approved' does not actually exist yet... (notice how the EUA for the Pfizer shot wasn't actually pulled when the approval came through)

3.  Technically they are still an experimental medical treatment because they have not completed the required trials yet...  (FDA approval and 'experimental' are not necessarily mutually exclusive)

4.  Since you run a small business, have you mandated a shot yet...or are you just CYA right now because people have only blathered about HIPPA/privacy and nobody has brought up the ADA yet so you haven't actually had to deal with it?

Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: dkabq on August 25, 2021, 04:41:15 PM
Like I said before:

So much for 'my body, my choice'.

Nobody is forcing you to make that choice.
How many hairs are you going to split this time to 'prove' it's not being forced? Do you need help moving those goalposts around?

It is not being forced. No goalpost moved. You're pretending pressure is force. It's bullshit. You know it's bullshit. Nobody is being forced to get the vaccine no matter how many times you claim that's happening because of "pressure" to get it. Any more than the "pressure" to not get an abortion is "forcing" people to not get an abortion, or pressure to "eat healthy" is forcing you to eat healthy. You know full well what "forced" means, like seatbelt laws or motorcycle helmet laws, and this isn't "forced."

But keep whining bitching moaning and complaining like a fucking snowflake SJW that "societal pressure to conform" is the same as "forced" to do something, you pussy. It's amusing to see you flip like this to behaving like those you've condemned for years once it's an issue which triggers you. Wahhh I am being "forced" to remove my nose ring to work at an upscale retail store. Wahhh I'm being "forced" to get a vaccine to work at a retail store which deals with the public on a constant basis. Wahh wahh wahh, I'm triggered! My rights!

By that logic, someone telling me that if I don't give them $xxxx/month they will burn my house down, isn't "forcing" me to give them money, they are "pressuring" me. And I guess that by the same token, the only way I would ever be "forced" to give someone my money would be if they literally forced my hand to retrieve my wallet from my back pocket and hand it over to them. Anything short of that (e.g., the threat of being shot, having the shit kicked out me, etc.) is just "pressure". Pedantic, but fair enough.

Instead, let's use the more precise term "coerce". Hence, one isn't being "forced" to get vaxxed (i.e., physically restrained while someone injects you), rather you are being "coerced" to get the vax by being threatened with losing your job, not being able to travel by air, etc.

FWIW, if you Google "define coercion" the similar list includes "force" and "pressure".

Regards.


Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: deadDMwalking on August 25, 2021, 04:54:36 PM
Yeah, rules and laws that prohibit me from putting other people in potential danger (like smoking in bars) infringe on my rights.

Why didn't we protest those laws again? 
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on August 25, 2021, 05:02:43 PM
  FDA approved.  I do love those official stamps.  Just like weapons of mass destruction, no troops on the ground, etc.  No thanks.

It's funny for a year people here screamed it wasn't even FDA approved and that was in some way meaningful, and now that it's FDA approved they dismiss that as not meaningful. Almost like they were arguing in bad faith for a year!

1.  Because the approval administrative procedures were circumvented the FDA approval is questionable, at best...

2.  None of the available jabs are actually approved, the Pfizer shot that was 'approved' does not actually exist yet... (notice how the EUA for the Pfizer shot wasn't actually pulled when the approval came through)

3.  Technically they are still an experimental medical treatment because they have not completed the required trials yet...  (FDA approval and 'experimental' are not necessarily mutually exclusive)

4.  Since you run a small business, have you mandated a shot yet...or are you just CYA right now because people have only blathered about HIPPA/privacy and nobody has brought up the ADA yet so you haven't actually had to deal with it?

1. The approval administrative procedure was not circumvented for this latest approval. I asked earlier for someone to provide a link supporting that claim and...crickets. Lots of people like to assert it, but nobody seems able to willing to actually back that claim up with anything other than their own personal guess.

2. The approved shot IS the existing shot. No change.

3. They did complete the required trials. Again, I keep asking for a link to claims like this and...crickets.

4. I have not mandated the shot. ADA doesn't cover not getting the vaccine - it's not a disability. Now if someone comes with a doctors note about how they are immunocompromised and the vaccine would not be in order, that would be respected under the ADA (if I were requiring the shot - which I am not). 

All of my employees got vaccinated on their own. I did influence it, but not how you might expect. In fact I never even said they should get it. I only said if anyone wanted to get it I would help them get the vaccine. And I told them I had gotten it. But I also told them they were not required to get it to work here and I would keep it private if people got it or didn't get it.

All I did was obtain approval from the City of LA to treat my employees as "health care support manufacturing" because we were making masks (and also donating many to local hospitals). And because "health care support" was one of the earlier vaccine check-boxes at a time when not everyone could get the vaccine, I offered my employees a personalized letter in their name addressed to the vaccine administrators explaining their job included the manufacturing of face masks, some of which were donated to local hospitals, and if the administrator thought it appropriate to please render vaccine services for that employee.

Because this was "special" permission to get the vaccine before some others could get it, my employees jumped on the opportunity and got the vaccine. Never mind that literally the very next week it was opened up to a lot more people to get the shot. And also never mind that not one vaccine administrator even looked at the letter. The mere idea that they were getting some sort of "privilege" that others couldn't get was enticing for them to get the vaccine. And every single one of them did, without any mandate or pressure.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: dkabq on August 25, 2021, 05:03:16 PM
Yeah, rules and laws that prohibit me from putting other people in potential danger (like smoking in bars) infringe on my rights.

Why didn't we protest those laws again?

https://noagendaassets.com/enc/1628454543.058_covidvaccineconfusionfromtiktok.mp3
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on August 25, 2021, 05:09:54 PM
Like I said before:

So much for 'my body, my choice'.

Nobody is forcing you to make that choice.
How many hairs are you going to split this time to 'prove' it's not being forced? Do you need help moving those goalposts around?

It is not being forced. No goalpost moved. You're pretending pressure is force. It's bullshit. You know it's bullshit. Nobody is being forced to get the vaccine no matter how many times you claim that's happening because of "pressure" to get it. Any more than the "pressure" to not get an abortion is "forcing" people to not get an abortion, or pressure to "eat healthy" is forcing you to eat healthy. You know full well what "forced" means, like seatbelt laws or motorcycle helmet laws, and this isn't "forced."

But keep whining bitching moaning and complaining like a fucking snowflake SJW that "societal pressure to conform" is the same as "forced" to do something, you pussy. It's amusing to see you flip like this to behaving like those you've condemned for years once it's an issue which triggers you. Wahhh I am being "forced" to remove my nose ring to work at an upscale retail store. Wahhh I'm being "forced" to get a vaccine to work at a retail store which deals with the public on a constant basis. Wahh wahh wahh, I'm triggered! My rights!

By that logic, someone telling me that if I don't give them $xxxx/month they will burn my house down, isn't "forcing" me to give them money, they are "pressuring" me.

Logic is not your specialty I see.

That might be the stupidest "by that logic" comparison I've seen in a decade.

Nobody is threatening to do anything to you which is on the level of "burning my house down". There are hundreds of thousands of jobs right now for the taking which don't require the vaccine. Many likely pay more than the places which do require the vaccine. You're not entitled to work anywhere. If you don't like the jobs which require a vaccine, go get one of the ones which do not require it. In this economy, it's really not hard to do and certainly not anything close to the equivalent of burning your house down. In fact it remains far easier to get one of those jobs for you than it would for someone with pink hair and a lip ring - who also routinely get denied jobs because of their personal preferences. Somehow I doubt you'd equate that with burning their houses down, right?

Look man if you don't like your job, get a different one. If you don't like your employer or their policies, get a different employer. This is your freedom. This is what at-will employment is about. but shut the F up with this whiney entitlement to the job you want with the employer you want and the employment policies you want. If you want to run the show, start your own business which does not have those policies. Don't try and force employers to adapt to your preferences though.

You know the other thing you could do if you don't like the working conditions at your job? Form a union. A union can override employer policies regarding vaccines, provided it's a private employer. Why don't you do that? I'd love to see all you guys who claim to be triggered by socialism start promoting unionization for collective action to force a change in an employment working condition!
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Zelen on August 25, 2021, 05:41:11 PM
Sorry, but it's simply dishonest to pretend like the various different measures & strategies aren't intended to coerce people into taking injections against their own judgment. They absolutely are.

You can say, "Just get a different job" now, but it's easily foreseeable that it soon won't be optional for employers. In countries like Australia you aren't even permitted to leave the country if you disagree with their insane and murderous lockdown policy.

While this is couched in the language of medical necessity, the consistent refusals to acknowledge natural immunity or acknowledge that injected persons carry and spread the virus reveals it's simply about power & compliance to arbitrary demands.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Shasarak on August 25, 2021, 05:47:36 PM
Stage 3, 4, 5 will make no difference.

I guess, if you are against science.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: dkabq on August 25, 2021, 05:49:31 PM
Like I said before:

So much for 'my body, my choice'.

Nobody is forcing you to make that choice.
How many hairs are you going to split this time to 'prove' it's not being forced? Do you need help moving those goalposts around?

It is not being forced. No goalpost moved. You're pretending pressure is force. It's bullshit. You know it's bullshit. Nobody is being forced to get the vaccine no matter how many times you claim that's happening because of "pressure" to get it. Any more than the "pressure" to not get an abortion is "forcing" people to not get an abortion, or pressure to "eat healthy" is forcing you to eat healthy. You know full well what "forced" means, like seatbelt laws or motorcycle helmet laws, and this isn't "forced."

But keep whining bitching moaning and complaining like a fucking snowflake SJW that "societal pressure to conform" is the same as "forced" to do something, you pussy. It's amusing to see you flip like this to behaving like those you've condemned for years once it's an issue which triggers you. Wahhh I am being "forced" to remove my nose ring to work at an upscale retail store. Wahhh I'm being "forced" to get a vaccine to work at a retail store which deals with the public on a constant basis. Wahh wahh wahh, I'm triggered! My rights!

By that logic, someone telling me that if I don't give them $xxxx/month they will burn my house down, isn't "forcing" me to give them money, they are "pressuring" me.

Logic is not your specialty I see.

That might be the stupidest "by that logic" comparison I've seen in a decade.

Nobody is threatening to do anything to you which is on the level of "burning my house down". There are hundreds of thousands of jobs right now for the taking which don't require the vaccine. Many likely pay more than the places which do require the vaccine. You're not entitled to work anywhere. If you don't like the jobs which require a vaccine, go get one of the ones which do not require it. In this economy, it's really not hard to do and certainly not anything close to the equivalent of burning your house down. In fact it remains far easier to get one of those jobs for you than it would for someone with pink hair and a lip ring - who also routinely get denied jobs because of their personal preferences. Somehow I doubt you'd equate that with burning their houses down, right?

Look man if you don't like your job, get a different one. If you don't like your employer or their policies, get a different employer. This is your freedom. This is what at-will employment is about. but shut the F up with this whiney entitlement to the job you want with the employer you want and the employment policies you want. If you want to run the show, start your own business which does not have those policies. Don't try and force employers to adapt to your preferences though.

You know the other thing you could do if you don't like the working conditions at your job? Form a union. A union can override employer policies regarding vaccines, provided it's a private employer. Why don't you do that? I'd love to see all you guys who claim to be triggered by socialism start promoting unionization for collective action to force a change in an employment working condition!

We will have to agree to disagree on the stupidity of the "by that logic comparison". 

Actually, losing my job would most likely cause me to have to give my house to the bank. So while it's not an equal outcome (burned-down vs. bank owned), both result in me losing my house.

That said, I do agree with you regarding not being entitled to a job. In fact, a previous president of the company I work for flatly told a questioner at an all-hands meeting, "You don't have to work here", in response to a complaint about the latest round of benefits reduction. That's why I always tell my younger colleagues to keep their options open so that they can bail to a better compensated job.

As for me, what I do can literally only be done where I currently work. And as I am in the twilight of my career, there are scant options for jumping to a new career at the level of compensation necessary to keep my house. So I play small and avoid the turbo lasers. Doesn't mean that I have to like it. But in the end it is better than many other alternatives.

And FWIW, I cannot gainsay how you handled the vax situation with your employees.

Regards.


Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on August 25, 2021, 06:09:46 PM
I think you might be the dumbest fucker on this entire message board.

The vaccines wear off after time, which is why sickness and death increase the further you get from your last dose. Which you knew. But even with that, infections and sickness and death are all much lower if you are vaccinated vs unvaccinated. And the claim the vaccines make people even more ill is in fact a sign you're brain damaged.

The "vaccines" are fucking useless, they can only provoke a temporary antibody response. Meanwhile natural immunity is lifelong. Through the magic of t-cells, an appropriate immune response is remembered from one infection to another, which is why people who had SARS in 2003 are immune to covid-19.

The vaccines most definitely make people more ill, through antibody dependent enhancement (and that's overlooking all the vascular damage the spike proteins do). Which might be why deaths are spiking in "fully vaccinated" Israel, alongside infections.

But being a stupid fucker, you didn't know that.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on August 25, 2021, 06:32:22 PM
Sorry, but it's simply dishonest to pretend like the various different measures & strategies aren't intended to coerce people into taking injections against their own judgment. They absolutely are.

Persuade yes. I think we can debate if it's "coercion" but it's surely not "forced" and that's the allegation being made. And the "coercion" accusation is that it's the equivalent of literally burning someone's home down if they don't do it, which is complete nonsense. So if you're looking to call people on being "dishonest and pretending" then hold the people in this thread accountable for those false allegations. Otherwise, you're not really sorry at all.

Quote
You can say, "Just get a different job" now, but it's easily foreseeable that it soon won't be optional for employers. In countries like Australia you aren't even permitted to leave the country if you disagree with their insane and murderous lockdown policy.

Look, when dire snowball effect prediction comes true, then you discuss that. But right now, that's not the world we live in. Much like Australia has gun confiscation laws we don't have here either. Just get a different job is something conservatives have told people for my entire life when those people don't like working conditions. You can't suddenly flip the script now that it's you not liking the working conditions, particularly when it's nothing close to the majority of job conditions out there and we have a surplus of job openings.

Quote
While this is couched in the language of medical necessity, the consistent refusals to acknowledge natural immunity or acknowledge that injected persons carry and spread the virus reveals it's simply about power & compliance to arbitrary demands.

I have not seen people deny that infected persons can carry and spread the virus. I have seen that people accurately state the quantity of virus is reduced for those with the vaccine and the quantity spread reduced as well, but that's not the same as denying they can spread it. That is in fact why people who are vaccinated are being asked to mask when indoors with people outside their household.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on August 25, 2021, 06:37:02 PM
Oh for fuck's sake not only is the right to privacy not contained in any natural laws written about by any philosopher prior to the founding of the nation, but the US Supreme Court MANUFACTURED THAT RIGHT FROM WHOLE CLOTH when they wrote the Roe vs. Wade decision. That's why they had to come up with that bullshit "Penumbra of the amendments" spin to try and create a right which they knew damn well never previously existed. We all grew up in an era when our home addresses and phone numbers were listed in a big free book everyone got! Privacy was not and was never one of the "natural rights" behind our nation. It's a "new" right created for a "living Constitution" and even with that "flexible interpretation" it never extended to private businesses asking employees for vaccine records. In fact, businesses which send their employees to foreign nations ROUTINELY have always asked for vaccine records for that job BECAUSE IT'S A REQUIREMENT TO TRAVEL. Nobody before claimed this was some privacy right.

Doctors notes provide defense from BEING FIRED for being absent. Not for being paid. You can get a few paid sick days a year by law, but not that many. Beyond that, it's just a reason used to not fire your ass.

As for "beating their workers" hey guess what, there are boxers and wrestlers hired just for that! Nobody is forced to accept a job as a boxer, but if they do accept a job as a boxer they're going to get hit, often, and by the businesses boxing sparing partner. It depends on the job. Nobody has to take that job.

Businesses can freely ask for vaccination records to work there. You are free to not work there. Take your petty little business regulations and shove them. You sound like a Union thug.
I didn't say a damn thing about getting paid for a day off. That's your fabrication.

Again, you're using legal arguments to argue against natural rights. That's invalid, even in concept. Natural rights exist beyond any legal framework. Read the work of Aristotle and Aquinas.

People have the right to be secure in their persons and effects, and to not have to divulge every personal detail at the whim of a third party.

And if you can't distinguish a boss taking a baseball bat and beating the hell out of their workers, and a sport, no wonder you have no grasp of the concept of natural rights.

And you still haven't addressed the clear, unambiguous, governmental coercion.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on August 25, 2021, 06:38:01 PM
Actually, losing my job would most likely cause me to have to give my house to the bank. So while it's not an equal outcome (burned-down vs. bank owned), both result in me losing my house.

Bull-fucking-shit.

Right now if you go unemployed you not only get normal unemployment but they still have super-unemployment in place. In addition they have mortgage deferment in place for the unemployed. We also have a record number of job openings right now and inflation in wages happening. So I'd love to know what your skills are which are so poor you couldn't find an equivalent paying job but so good that it's not a low paying job you're in, in the first place. Naw, this is a heaping mound of bullshit. You wouldn't let some SJW get away with that kind of claim if they made it about being fired for having pink hair. Why did you think you'd get away with it for yourself?

Quote
That said, I do agree with you regarding not being entitled to a job. In fact, a previous president of the company I work for flatly told a questioner at an all-hands meeting, "You don't have to work here", in response to a complaint about the latest round of benefits reduction. That's why I always tell my younger colleagues to keep their options open so that they can bail to a better compensated job.

As for me, what I do can literally only be done where I currently work. And as I am in the twilight of my career, there are scant options for jumping to a new career at the level of compensation necessary to keep my house. So I play small and avoid the turbo lasers. Doesn't mean that I have to like it. But in the end it is better than many other alternatives.

You are almost certainly selling yourself short. Sure, your specific current job duties are tailored to your current job. But there are sooooooo many good job openings right now for responsible people with a good track record of not leaving their prior jobs after a year that you almost certainly could not only find other work, but other work which pays better than your current job. You should take your own advice - look around.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on August 25, 2021, 06:40:27 PM
Like I said before:

So much for 'my body, my choice'.

Nobody is forcing you to make that choice.
Let's say someone works for you. You threaten to fire them, if they don't have sex with you.

They cry, and hate themselves, but have sex with you because they can't afford to lose their job.

You're arguing that's 100% consensual. It's an appalling stance, as I hope this example illustrates.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on August 25, 2021, 06:42:31 PM
I think you might be the dumbest fucker on this entire message board.

The vaccines wear off after time, which is why sickness and death increase the further you get from your last dose. Which you knew. But even with that, infections and sickness and death are all much lower if you are vaccinated vs unvaccinated. And the claim the vaccines make people even more ill is in fact a sign you're brain damaged.

The "vaccines" are fucking useless, they can only provoke a temporary antibody response. Meanwhile natural immunity is lifelong.

Wow. More completely bullshit. Natural immunity is lasting a SHORTER AMOUNT OF TIME THAN THE TWO MAIN VACCINES. I don't know where you heard different, but antibody count declines in those with natural immunity faster than with the second dose of the two main vaccines. People can and are getting covid a second time without the vaccine at fairly high rates right now. Natural immunity appears to last 6 months or less.

Quote
Through the magic of t-cells, an appropriate immune response is remembered from one infection to another, which is why people who had SARS in 2003 are immune to covid-19.

That was the theory many months ago. Turned out to not be true. T-Cell response is not holding up with natural immunity.

Is this why you've been so insane on this issue? You didn't ever catch up on the topic and you're working off old information?

Quote
The vaccines most definitely make people more ill, through antibody dependent enhancement (and that's overlooking all the vascular damage the spike proteins do). Which might be why deaths are spiking in "fully vaccinated" Israel, alongside infections.

Jesus that is some extreme pseudo-science nonsense. You're not actually given a spike protein you moron. Deaths are not "spiking" in the fully vaccinated in Israel. They're up from "zero" to "close to zero" but most deaths in Israel remain in the unvaccinated including in those who are getting a second case of Covid.

[quote[But being a stupid fucker, you didn't know that.
[/quote]

Didn't know the completely fabricated nonsense you read on some new age website?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on August 25, 2021, 06:47:42 PM
Yeah, rules and laws that prohibit me from putting other people in potential danger (like smoking in bars) infringe on my rights.

Why didn't we protest those laws again?
They do infringe your rights. And I argued against them, even though I hate hate hate hate hate hate smoke filled bars, and the end result was immeasurably better from my perspective. But wrong is still wrong.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: moonsweeper on August 25, 2021, 06:50:34 PM
  FDA approved.  I do love those official stamps.  Just like weapons of mass destruction, no troops on the ground, etc.  No thanks.

It's funny for a year people here screamed it wasn't even FDA approved and that was in some way meaningful, and now that it's FDA approved they dismiss that as not meaningful. Almost like they were arguing in bad faith for a year!

1.  Because the approval administrative procedures were circumvented the FDA approval is questionable, at best...

2.  None of the available jabs are actually approved, the Pfizer shot that was 'approved' does not actually exist yet... (notice how the EUA for the Pfizer shot wasn't actually pulled when the approval came through)

3.  Technically they are still an experimental medical treatment because they have not completed the required trials yet...  (FDA approval and 'experimental' are not necessarily mutually exclusive)

4.  Since you run a small business, have you mandated a shot yet...or are you just CYA right now because people have only blathered about HIPPA/privacy and nobody has brought up the ADA yet so you haven't actually had to deal with it?

1. The approval administrative procedure was not circumvented for this latest approval. I asked earlier for someone to provide a link supporting that claim and...crickets. Lots of people like to assert it, but nobody seems able to willing to actually back that claim up with anything other than their own personal guess.

2. The approved shot IS the existing shot. No change.

3. They did complete the required trials. Again, I keep asking for a link to claims like this and...crickets.

4. I have not mandated the shot. ADA doesn't cover not getting the vaccine - it's not a disability. Now if someone comes with a doctors note about how they are immunocompromised and the vaccine would not be in order, that would be respected under the ADA (if I were requiring the shot - which I am not). 

All of my employees got vaccinated on their own. I did influence it, but not how you might expect. In fact I never even said they should get it. I only said if anyone wanted to get it I would help them get the vaccine. And I told them I had gotten it. But I also told them they were not required to get it to work here and I would keep it private if people got it or didn't get it.

All I did was obtain approval from the City of LA to treat my employees as "health care support manufacturing" because we were making masks (and also donating many to local hospitals). And because "health care support" was one of the earlier vaccine check-boxes at a time when not everyone could get the vaccine, I offered my employees a personalized letter in their name addressed to the vaccine administrators explaining their job included the manufacturing of face masks, some of which were donated to local hospitals, and if the administrator thought it appropriate to please render vaccine services for that employee.

Because this was "special" permission to get the vaccine before some others could get it, my employees jumped on the opportunity and got the vaccine. Never mind that literally the very next week it was opened up to a lot more people to get the shot. And also never mind that not one vaccine administrator even looked at the letter. The mere idea that they were getting some sort of "privilege" that others couldn't get was enticing for them to get the vaccine. And every single one of them did, without any mandate or pressure.

1.  Surely you can show me the data that shows they followed the administrative procedures to the letter...After all, if a company can show that much efficiency compared to the normal development time, that would be some truly revolutionary methods that can be used by others.

2.  So you are saying the currently available jab is legally the same as what the FDA issued an approval letter for...

3.  See my response to 1 above and please provide a link as to how the control group is doing...

4.  Lucky you, everyone took the jab voluntarily...I am assuming that you will require any new employees to be vaccinated in order to be hired, right.  It is approved and all, right...which means it is no longer 'experimental' and doesn't have an EUA...and you said businesses should be able to do that.  I mean it isn't a 'disability' so obviously the ADA wouldn't apply, because laws never cover things that don't relate to their title, do they...  ;)

Could somebody please provide me a link for how long the jab is definitely effective for...
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on August 25, 2021, 06:52:15 PM
1. The approval administrative procedure was not circumvented for this latest approval. I asked earlier for someone to provide a link supporting that claim and...crickets. Lots of people like to assert it, but nobody seems able to willing to actually back that claim up with anything other than their own personal guess.
Nonsense. You made an absurd argument, and basically asked for a link proving that water was wet.

You can't turn 10 years into 1 year. You can't. This doesn't require a formal citation, it's a basic law of the world.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on August 25, 2021, 06:55:16 PM
Wow. More completely bullshit. Natural immunity is lasting a SHORTER AMOUNT OF TIME THAN THE TWO MAIN VACCINES. I don't know where you heard different, but antibody count declines in those with natural immunity faster than with the second dose of the two main vaccines. People can and are getting covid a second time without the vaccine at fairly high rates right now. Natural immunity appears to last 6 months or less.

That was the theory many months ago. Turned out to not be true. T-Cell response is not holding up with natural immunity.

Is this why you've been so insane on this issue? You didn't ever catch up on the topic and you're working off old information?

Complete and utter bollocks, there is no "new information", a century of immunological understanding didn't change in 2020. Antibodies are barely even half the story, which is why they're irrelevant.

There is nothing new or novel about covid-19, besides all the propaganda bullshit being continuously pumped out to try to justify carrying on this fake state of emergency.

And I'm not insane on this issue, I've had this nothing burger of an infection and shrugged it off in a week. Didn't even put me in bed, never mind hospital. But then I'm neither fat nor old.


Jesus that is some extreme pseudo-science nonsense. You're not actually given a spike protein you moron. Deaths are not "spiking" in the fully vaccinated in Israel. They're up from "zero" to "close to zero" but most deaths in Israel remain in the unvaccinated including in those who are getting a second case of Covid.

Didn't know the completely fabricated nonsense you read on some new age website?

All the "vaccines" are full of spike proteins, you dumb fuck. That's how they trick the immune system into ignoring that part of the virus.

As for Israel, for someone talking about being current, you clearly haven't look at any data since the end of July. Their 7 day average has been in double figures throughout August. And nope, just like in the UK, most deaths are in the vaccinated.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on August 25, 2021, 06:59:31 PM
Sorry, but it's simply dishonest to pretend like the various different measures & strategies aren't intended to coerce people into taking injections against their own judgment. They absolutely are.

Persuade yes. I think we can debate if it's "coercion" but it's surely not "forced" and that's the allegation being made.
Coercion is force. It's the literal definition of the word.

And once it becomes a government mandate, force involves the threat of physical violence, because government mandates are enforced by people with guns. Try not paying taxes, then refusing to show up at all the proceedings, and then say no thank you when they come to pick you up, and see what happens. That it's buried behind bureaucracy and the expectation of submission doesn't change that it's compliance under the threat of deadly force.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ratman_tf on August 25, 2021, 08:30:14 PM
  FDA approved.  I do love those official stamps.  Just like weapons of mass destruction, no troops on the ground, etc.  No thanks.

It's funny for a year people here screamed it wasn't even FDA approved and that was in some way meaningful, and now that it's FDA approved they dismiss that as not meaningful. Almost like they were arguing in bad faith for a year!

For a year, I have pointed out that the FDA approval was just one criteria for being vaccine hestiant. I also wanted that full FDA approval to be consistent with previous standards, for the DOL and OSHA to enforce 29 CFR 1904’s recording requirements (for worker reports of vaccine side effects) and that the government and the media have a year of misinformation and outright lies to make amends for before I even consider getting vaccinated. There are other considerations like the PREP act protections and whether FDA approval lifts those protections for the vaccinations.
And that does not preclude other issues that may have arisen from the way these vaccinations were developed and deployed that I may not be aware of. A part of my hesitancy is the unknowns.

People claiming that this FDA approval proves anything about the vaccine hesitant arguing in "bad faith" are a bunch of projecting assholes who are pissed off that their "silver bullet" argument is a pathetic straw man attack.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Shasarak on August 25, 2021, 08:30:51 PM
Sorry, but it's simply dishonest to pretend like the various different measures & strategies aren't intended to coerce people into taking injections against their own judgment. They absolutely are.

Persuade yes. I think we can debate if it's "coercion" but it's surely not "forced" and that's the allegation being made.
Coercion is force. It's the literal definition of the word.

And once it becomes a government mandate, force involves the threat of physical violence, because government mandates are enforced by people with guns. Try not paying taxes, then refusing to show up at all the proceedings, and then say no thank you when they come to pick you up, and see what happens. That it's buried behind bureaucracy and the expectation of submission doesn't change that it's compliance under the threat of deadly force.

There you go again Pat using your weasel words like "deadly force"

We all know that when the police rock up to arrest you then you just say "Swiper, no swiping" and then they go away.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ratman_tf on August 25, 2021, 08:41:57 PM
Yeah, rules and laws that prohibit me from putting other people in potential danger (like smoking in bars) infringe on my rights.

Why didn't we protest those laws again?

People did.

https://abcnews.go.com/Health/story?id=117545&page=1
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: dkabq on August 25, 2021, 08:54:22 PM
Actually, losing my job would most likely cause me to have to give my house to the bank. So while it's not an equal outcome (burned-down vs. bank owned), both result in me losing my house.

Bull-fucking-shit.

Right now if you go unemployed you not only get normal unemployment but they still have super-unemployment in place. In addition they have mortgage deferment in place for the unemployed. We also have a record number of job openings right now and inflation in wages happening. So I'd love to know what your skills are which are so poor you couldn't find an equivalent paying job but so good that it's not a low paying job you're in, in the first place. Naw, this is a heaping mound of bullshit. You wouldn't let some SJW get away with that kind of claim if they made it about being fired for having pink hair. Why did you think you'd get away with it for yourself?

Quote
That said, I do agree with you regarding not being entitled to a job. In fact, a previous president of the company I work for flatly told a questioner at an all-hands meeting, "You don't have to work here", in response to a complaint about the latest round of benefits reduction. That's why I always tell my younger colleagues to keep their options open so that they can bail to a better compensated job.

As for me, what I do can literally only be done where I currently work. And as I am in the twilight of my career, there are scant options for jumping to a new career at the level of compensation necessary to keep my house. So I play small and avoid the turbo lasers. Doesn't mean that I have to like it. But in the end it is better than many other alternatives.

You are almost certainly selling yourself short. Sure, your specific current job duties are tailored to your current job. But there are sooooooo many good job openings right now for responsible people with a good track record of not leaving their prior jobs after a year that you almost certainly could not only find other work, but other work which pays better than your current job. You should take your own advice - look around.

Think what you like. I do nuclear risk and safety work. It's a very specialized (and limited, in terms of locations and companies) field. And what I am currently doing is *literally* is only done where I work. Moreover, at my age and compensation, there pretty much has to be a direct need for your specific skill set to land another comparable job. Nobody is going to pay you to spend time to come up to speed. Plus, I have a pension, so I have to factor losing further accrual into any job change.

Not that I haven't looked. I had my fingers crossed for potential 5-year gig in Tokyo supporting Fire PRA work related to the post-Fukushima reactor restarts, but it never materialized (I would have given up pension accrual for that job). I also interviewed with an advanced reactor start-up, but they decided that they didn't need any additional beyond design-basis/severe accident support at the time.

Conversely, I have a colleague who is early career (<5 years), with no wife/girlfriend and living in an apartment. Between his talent and his connections, he could easily get another job (maybe even in a non-nuclear field) and move. I was like that back in the day, but with a wife, and less talent and connections. Now I am shackled by golden handcuffs (a very first-world problem).

As for unemployment + super-unemployment, it would not be sufficient for me to keep my house (even with the bank getting screwed out of my mortgage payment, I still have to pay those property taxes). Which I am *super* grateful for, given that in all of the other timelines I am living in my mother's basement and working a low-paying, dead-end job, and not have nearly so much to lose.

Regards.



Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Zelen on August 25, 2021, 11:33:29 PM
Wow. More completely bullshit. Natural immunity is lasting a SHORTER AMOUNT OF TIME THAN THE TWO MAIN VACCINES. I don't know where you heard different, but antibody count declines in those with natural immunity faster than with the second dose of the two main vaccines. People can and are getting covid a second time without the vaccine at fairly high rates right now. Natural immunity appears to last 6 months or less.

Where are you getting this information? This does not align with data that I have seen on the subject matter.

Ref: https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v1.full.pdf

Quote
SARS-CoV-2-naïve vaccinees had a 13.06-fold (95% CI, 8.08 to 21.11) increased risk
for breakthrough infection with the Delta variant compared to those previously
infected, when the first event (infection or vaccination) occurred during January and
February of 2021. The increased risk was significant (P<0.001) for symptomatic
disease as well. When allowing the infection to occur at any time before vaccination
(from March 2020 to February 2021), evidence of waning natural immunity was
demonstrated, though SARS-CoV-2 naïve vaccinees had a 5.96-fold (95% CI, 4.85 to
7.33) increased risk for breakthrough infection and a 7.13-fold (95% CI, 5.51 to 9.21)
increased risk for symptomatic disease. SARS-CoV-2-naïve vaccinees were also at a
greater risk for COVID-19-related-hospitalizations compared to those that were
previously infected

There's a number of papers demonstrating natural immunity provides better protection than receiving an injection. Previous study from Israel quantified it at 6.7x better protection from infection. Also, data from the UK demonstrates that infection with SarsCov-2 occurs in 0.7% of those who have previously been infected, but 15% in those who have received an injection.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on August 26, 2021, 07:43:13 AM
Mistwell is a smug cunt lawyer who thinks he's smarter than everyone else (goes with the territory), so he's probably pulled that "natural immunity doesn't last" bollocks out of his arse.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on August 26, 2021, 07:47:08 AM
LOL at suprplus job openings.  If you flip burgers at macdonalds, or work a cash register.   Those are also the only jobs "super unemployment" is a better deal for.  A little too much time with the wine and cheese crowd creates that sort of world view I guess.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ghostmaker on August 26, 2021, 09:15:55 AM
Sorry, but it's simply dishonest to pretend like the various different measures & strategies aren't intended to coerce people into taking injections against their own judgment. They absolutely are.

Persuade yes. I think we can debate if it's "coercion" but it's surely not "forced" and that's the allegation being made.
Coercion is force. It's the literal definition of the word.

And once it becomes a government mandate, force involves the threat of physical violence, because government mandates are enforced by people with guns. Try not paying taxes, then refusing to show up at all the proceedings, and then say no thank you when they come to pick you up, and see what happens. That it's buried behind bureaucracy and the expectation of submission doesn't change that it's compliance under the threat of deadly force.
Thank you, Pat. You beat me to it.

I am completely stunned, to be honest, that Misty's taking this angle that coercion and pressure aren't force. What the fuck.

Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on August 26, 2021, 09:59:28 AM
I am completely stunned, to be honest, that Misty's taking this angle that coercion and pressure aren't force. What the fuck.

Most people have problems linking the long-term consequences of their actions. So when the use of force is obscured behind layers of other actors and buerocracy it doesn't FEEL like force anymore.

This is why democracy is so fetishized instead of viewed as the least bad option (but still bad).
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on August 26, 2021, 11:26:31 AM
  I find it interesting I saw a clip of the Phizer CEO saying he would not get the shot, since he is 59 and in good health.  I think that says all that needs to be said.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on August 26, 2021, 11:27:39 AM
Mistwell is a smug cunt lawyer who thinks he's smarter than everyone else (goes with the territory), so he's probably pulled that "natural immunity doesn't last" bollocks out of his arse.
No, Mistwell isn't making something up. I've heard similar from major news organizations. For instance, I was listening to NPR last week, and they had on two doctors to answer questions about covid. Someone called in, asking whether they should get a jab, even though they already had covid. The doctors clearly stated that natural immunity wasn't all it was cracked up to be, and that the jab provided a higher level of protection, so of course the caller should get vaccinated. Neither doctor provided a source or even clear reasoning on this matter. The response mostly boiled down to a wordy "trust me, I'm an expert". So while the literature seems to be overwhelmingly in favor of the idea that natural immunity provides a higher level of protection than the various vaccines, there must be a counter example somewhere.

And it's also partially correct that natural immunity doesn't last. Antibodies developed in response to an infection do diminish over time, and eventually vanish. But it's also partially false, because your body retains the memory of how to create those antibodies, in T-cells. Antibodies are the first line of defense, and creating new ones isn't immediate, so it is possible for a new infection to overwhelm the body's defenses before the T-cells can create enough antibodies. This is primarily going to be an issue when someone was exposed to a high viral load, rather than casual contact, meaning it's more of a concern for people like healthcare works in a covid ward than the general public. But it's misleading, because it's not a unique characteristic of natural immunity. The protection provided by vaccines also diminishes over time, hence all the current talk about boosters. In fact, that seems to be one of the major reasons why the vaccines don't seem to be as effective as initially claimed: Even ignoring the relative/absolute confusion, the effectiveness was based on very recent jabs, when the protection was highest.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Snowman0147 on August 26, 2021, 01:18:55 PM
Mistwell is a smug cunt lawyer who thinks he's smarter than everyone else (goes with the territory), so he's probably pulled that "natural immunity doesn't last" bollocks out of his arse.

I especially hate how he lied about my reasons to ban his sorry ass.

Mistwell: "You want me banned for my desenting opinion.  Sniff...  Sniff.."

No Mistwell I want you ban because you did FAR MORE than just give a opinion.  Your lying through your teeth, your falsely accusing people of things they didn't do, your insulting people's intelligence, and to be honest your being a shit human being Mistwell. 

The site can only improve with you gone.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: deadDMwalking on August 26, 2021, 01:50:00 PM
No Mistwell I want you ban because you did FAR MORE than just give a opinion. 

Banning - the first tool of the fascists.  Of course, it means that you're promoting cancel culture.  You could just...address the lies.

Anyway, back on topic, my mind was just blown.

Apparently - and I am not making this us - the same people who won't get a vaccine in part because it isn't approved are taking horse de-worming medication to combat COVID.  While that already seems crazy, they're demanding that legislators get it approved for use in people to make getting it easier - you know, even though it hasn't been tested in people for these purposes. 
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: jhkim on August 26, 2021, 01:58:49 PM
  I find it interesting I saw a clip of the Phizer CEO saying he would not get the shot, since he is 59 and in good health.  I think that says all that needs to be said.

The CEO of Pfizer is Albert Bourla, who got his second shot back in March 2021.

https://www.pfizer.com/people/leadership/executives

https://twitter.com/albertbourla/status/1369734954498818052?lang=en

I think you might be referring to the December 2020 CNBC interview where he said that he wasn't going to "cut the line" to get his shot ahead of other people because he was in good health, but that was a matter of prioritizing the people who should receive the shot first.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6O6FqYYImk
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on August 26, 2021, 02:00:59 PM
Apparently - and I am not making this us - the same people who won't get a vaccine in part because it isn't approved are taking horse de-worming medication to combat COVID.  While that already seems crazy, they're demanding that legislators get it approved for use in people to make getting it easier - you know, even though it hasn't been tested in people for these purposes.
Ivermectin is approved. Not for this purpose, but once a drug has be approved and declared safe, doctors can prescribe it for alternate uses. That's perfectly legit.

The problem with horse ivermectin is impurities and that it's not designed for human consumption. No doctor will prescribe it, so the people who are using it are the same people who buy fish antibiotics instead of going to urgent care and getting a prescription. It's popular among survivalists, for instance. This is nothing new, it's been part of that subculture for a long time.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ratman_tf on August 26, 2021, 02:58:18 PM
No Mistwell I want you ban because you did FAR MORE than just give a opinion. 

Banning - the first tool of the fascists.  Of course, it means that you're promoting cancel culture.  You could just...address the lies.

Anyway, back on topic, my mind was just blown.

Apparently - and I am not making this us - the same people who won't get a vaccine in part because it isn't approved are taking horse de-worming medication to combat COVID.  While that already seems crazy, they're demanding that legislators get it approved for use in people to make getting it easier - you know, even though it hasn't been tested in people for these purposes.

Hell, man, and I too am not making this up, Austrailians are executing puppies and service dogs in order to discourage people from breaking lockdown to care for them. Crazy fucking stuff out there.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on August 26, 2021, 04:09:54 PM
  I find it interesting I saw a clip of the Phizer CEO saying he would not get the shot, since he is 59 and in good health.  I think that says all that needs to be said.

The CEO of Pfizer is Albert Bourla, who got his second shot back in March 2021.

https://www.pfizer.com/people/leadership/executives

https://twitter.com/albertbourla/status/1369734954498818052?lang=en

I think you might be referring to the December 2020 CNBC interview where he said that he wasn't going to "cut the line" to get his shot ahead of other people because he was in good health, but that was a matter of prioritizing the people who should receive the shot first.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6O6FqYYImk

  I am referring to that.  His stance at 59 said all that needs to be said.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on August 26, 2021, 04:22:21 PM
No Mistwell I want you ban because you did FAR MORE than just give a opinion. 

Banning - the first tool of the fascists.  Of course, it means that you're promoting cancel culture.  You could just...address the lies.

Anyway, back on topic, my mind was just blown.

Apparently - and I am not making this us - the same people who won't get a vaccine in part because it isn't approved are taking horse de-worming medication to combat COVID.  While that already seems crazy, they're demanding that legislators get it approved for use in people to make getting it easier - you know, even though it hasn't been tested in people for these purposes.

  Seems it is also the first tool of Communists.  Seems it is pretty much the first tool of all totalitarians.  Do you think facists are somehow worse than communists?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: deadDMwalking on August 26, 2021, 05:13:13 PM
  Seems it is also the first tool of Communists.  Seems it is pretty much the first tool of all totalitarians.  Do you think facists are somehow worse than communists?

This is a fun question. 

Sure, I think that fascists are worse than communists.  Understanding that communism is an economic theory that people should own the means of production to ensure that everyone reaps the benefits of economic growth, I find it generally a well-meaning but deeply flawed institution.  Doing the wrong thing for the right reason is still wrong, but at least it is understandable.  Fascism on the contrary is predicated on the idea of hierarchies of value, usually putting men and certain races in positions of power regardless of their fitness for the role.  While societies under both systems of government have been failures, I think the WELL-INTENTIONED failure is better than the EVIL-INTENTIONED failure.  Don't you? 
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Shasarak on August 26, 2021, 05:25:58 PM
At least fascists got the trains running on time.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on August 26, 2021, 05:28:37 PM
This is a fun question. 

Sure, I think that fascists are worse than communists.  Understanding that communism is an economic theory that people should own the means of production to ensure that everyone reaps the benefits of economic growth, I find it generally a well-meaning but deeply flawed institution.  Doing the wrong thing for the right reason is still wrong, but at least it is understandable.  Fascism on the contrary is predicated on the idea of hierarchies of value, usually putting men and certain races in positions of power regardless of their fitness for the role.  While societies under both systems of government have been failures, I think the WELL-INTENTIONED failure is better than the EVIL-INTENTIONED failure.  Don't you?
Absolutely not. If the outcomes are the same, all the good intentions do is provide cover. That allows failure after failure, making the end result far worse than some hypothetical evil-intentioned failure. The road to hell is paved with good intentions not evil intentions, because only the facade of good intentions provide enough of an excuse to justify real evil.

Though I never understood the argument that communists are well intentioned. The whole premise behind communism[1] is taking things from others, under the assumption that the person doing the taking knows better. It's not just raw arrogance, it requires believing that the bulk of humanity is subhuman and unfit to run their own lives. That makes it monstrous, not well-intentioned.

[1] Here I'm referring to the many varieties of Marxism, and treating communism and socialism as interchangable, as Marx did in his own works. Kropotkinism and some other strains of anarcho-communist thought don't involve a central authority seizing control, but they're marginal strains. And the Leninesque distinction that reserves the word communism only for Marx's 4th stage is largely irrelevant, because even ardent Marxists admit the stateless society can only be reached by passing through a stage where a central government takes control of everything, provide no explanation for how that society can be reached (they claim that people must be transformed, and can't understand it until it's on the verge of occurring, so any theorizing today about how it could happen is invalid), and place it in the far future (Lenin said 1,000 years).
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: moonsweeper on August 26, 2021, 05:30:02 PM
No Mistwell I want you ban because you did FAR MORE than just give a opinion. 

Banning - the first tool of the fascists.  Of course, it means that you're promoting cancel culture.  You could just...address the lies.

Anyway, back on topic, my mind was just blown.

Apparently - and I am not making this us - the same people who won't get a vaccine in part because it isn't approved are taking horse de-worming medication to combat COVID.  While that already seems crazy, they're demanding that legislators get it approved for use in people to make getting it easier - you know, even though it hasn't been tested in people for these purposes.

Now you are just showing complete medical ignorance...

Ivermectin is approved for humans, horse deworming is just one of its other uses.  (ninja'd by Pat)
My dog got the same antibiotic prescribed for him a few weeks ago as I did early this year (Amoxicillan).
How long was aspirin used for blood pressure issues/heart attack prevention before it was 'approved' for the purpose?



...but then again, what should we expect from someone who came up with this gem...


  Seems it is also the first tool of Communists.  Seems it is pretty much the first tool of all totalitarians.  Do you think facists are somehow worse than communists?

This is a fun question. 

Sure, I think that fascists are worse than communists.  Understanding that communism is an economic theory that people should own the means of production to ensure that everyone reaps the benefits of economic growth, I find it generally a well-meaning but deeply flawed institution.  Doing the wrong thing for the right reason is still wrong, but at least it is understandable.  Fascism on the contrary is predicated on the idea of hierarchies of value, usually putting men and certain races in positions of power regardless of their fitness for the role.  While societies under both systems of government have been failures, I think the WELL-INTENTIONED failure is better than the EVIL-INTENTIONED failure.  Don't you?

Cause everybody knows ole Adolf's 9 million tally for his camps is the world record holder...oh wait...
What about Mao and the USSR?

Never mind.  I figured it out. 
What you are saying is that the 120 million exterminated is ok compared to the 9 million exterminated because the communists were 'WELL-INTENTIONED'.

My bad...
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on August 26, 2021, 05:41:23 PM
  Seems it is also the first tool of Communists.  Seems it is pretty much the first tool of all totalitarians.  Do you think facists are somehow worse than communists?

This is a fun question. 

Sure, I think that fascists are worse than communists.  Understanding that communism is an economic theory that people should own the means of production to ensure that everyone reaps the benefits of economic growth, I find it generally a well-meaning but deeply flawed institution.  Doing the wrong thing for the right reason is still wrong, but at least it is understandable.  Fascism on the contrary is predicated on the idea of hierarchies of value, usually putting men and certain races in positions of power regardless of their fitness for the role.  While societies under both systems of government have been failures, I think the WELL-INTENTIONED failure is better than the EVIL-INTENTIONED failure.  Don't you?

   I rate em on body counts, intentions mean jack shit.  I rate things on results, and results alone, good intentions pave a path to hell.   I think ANYONE with a brain should rate things on results, not intentions.  So no, I think body count matters more, and communism has a MUCH larger body count.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: deadDMwalking on August 26, 2021, 05:47:54 PM
It's hard to make the claim that the Soviet Union or China were ever Communist as defined by Marx in the Communist Manifesto.  Quite clearly, the apparatus of the State never 'withered away'.  However, we do know that some amount of collective ownership has been fine.  Even our liberal democracies founded on the principles of free enterprise and capitalism are actually mixed - we allow private ownership but also allow government to intervene in economic activities to achieve social aims and for the public good. 

Are there people here that are ready to tell me that the government shouldn't regulate Facebook and/or shouldn't have the power to break it up? 
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on August 26, 2021, 05:50:25 PM
It's hard to make the claim that the Soviet Union or China were ever Communist as defined by Marx in the Communist Manifesto.  Quite clearly, the apparatus of the State never 'withered away'.  However, we do know that some amount of collective ownership has been fine.  Even our liberal democracies founded on the principles of free enterprise and capitalism are actually mixed - we allow private ownership but also allow government to intervene in economic activities to achieve social aims and for the public good. 

Are there people here that are ready to tell me that the government shouldn't regulate Facebook and/or shouldn't have the power to break it up?

  Dude, slide those goal posts all you want.  If you keep killing people on the scale of millions at a time with good intentions, I hate to tell you, you are the villain.   Because you sold the wolf tickets with Marx and constantly say, well it was not the REAL communism....every fucking time, sooner or later people have to get just a little smarter.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: deadDMwalking on August 26, 2021, 05:54:34 PM
   I rate em on body counts, intentions mean jack shit.  I rate things on results, and results alone, good intentions pave a path to hell.   I think ANYONE with a brain should rate things on results, not intentions.  So no, I think body count matters more, and communism has a MUCH larger body count.

You mean absolute numbers dead?  Or number of deaths per capita?  Or per capita per year?

Do you count deaths of their own people the same or differently to deaths of other people? 

How many Americans were killed in wars with Communists compared to Fascists?  Does that factor into the decision at all?

If a society executes 1% of the population annually (maybe for real crimes that carry the death penalty elsewhere), it's clear that a larger country (like China) will kill a lot more people than a smaller country (like Germany).  Likewise, a regime that has been in power for 50+ years killing 1% of the population will kill far more people than a regime that has been in power for 5 years killing the same percentage. 

So let's not compare apples and oranges.  If you're going to base it on body count, which bodies do you count? 


Edit - Let me put it another way.  I keep hearing things like 'the only good Communist is a dead Communist', but nobody gives Communists credit for killing more Communists than a single Capitalist ever did.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: moonsweeper on August 26, 2021, 05:55:57 PM
It's hard to make the claim that the Soviet Union or China were ever Communist as defined by Marx in the Communist Manifesto.  Quite clearly, the apparatus of the State never 'withered away'.  However, we do know that some amount of collective ownership has been fine.  Even our liberal democracies founded on the principles of free enterprise and capitalism are actually mixed - we allow private ownership but also allow government to intervene in economic activities to achieve social aims and for the public good. 

Are there people here that are ready to tell me that the government shouldn't regulate Facebook and/or shouldn't have the power to break it up?

  Dude, slide those goal posts all you want.  If you keep killing people on the scale of millions at a time with good intentions, I hate to tell you, you are the villain.   Because you sold the wolf tickets with Marx and constantly say, well it was not the REAL communism....every fucking time, sooner or later people have to get just a little smarter.

Hey ogg, check the timestamp on my message....ROFLMAO

Can I get my 10 internet bucks now... 8)
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on August 26, 2021, 06:04:37 PM
   I rate em on body counts, intentions mean jack shit.  I rate things on results, and results alone, good intentions pave a path to hell.   I think ANYONE with a brain should rate things on results, not intentions.  So no, I think body count matters more, and communism has a MUCH larger body count.

You mean absolute numbers dead?  Or number of deaths per capita?  Or per capita per year?

Do you count deaths of their own people the same or differently to deaths of other people? 

How many Americans were killed in wars with Communists compared to Fascists?  Does that factor into the decision at all?

If a society executes 1% of the population annually (maybe for real crimes that carry the death penalty elsewhere), it's clear that a larger country (like China) will kill a lot more people than a smaller country (like Germany).  Likewise, a regime that has been in power for 50+ years killing 1% of the population will kill far more people than a regime that has been in power for 5 years killing the same percentage. 

So let's not compare apples and oranges.  If you're going to base it on body count, which bodies do you count? 


Edit - Let me put it another way.  I keep hearing things like 'the only good Communist is a dead Communist', but nobody gives Communists credit for killing more Communists than a single Capitalist ever did.

  I like total numbers.   I count the people killed by the good/evil intentioned government at hand.  Even that is perspective, so you really need to go full weasel here.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on August 26, 2021, 06:07:34 PM
It's hard to make the claim that the Soviet Union or China were ever Communist as defined by Marx in the Communist Manifesto.  Quite clearly, the apparatus of the State never 'withered away'.  However, we do know that some amount of collective ownership has been fine.  Even our liberal democracies founded on the principles of free enterprise and capitalism are actually mixed - we allow private ownership but also allow government to intervene in economic activities to achieve social aims and for the public good. 

Are there people here that are ready to tell me that the government shouldn't regulate Facebook and/or shouldn't have the power to break it up?

  Dude, slide those goal posts all you want.  If you keep killing people on the scale of millions at a time with good intentions, I hate to tell you, you are the villain.   Because you sold the wolf tickets with Marx and constantly say, well it was not the REAL communism....every fucking time, sooner or later people have to get just a little smarter.

Hey ogg, check the timestamp on my message....ROFLMAO

Can I get my 10 internet bucks now... 8)

  I will wire them to you via astropathic transmission.  Expect them in the next 1-10000000000 days.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on August 26, 2021, 06:09:24 PM
“Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.”

― C. S. Lewis
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on August 26, 2021, 06:10:51 PM
It's hard to make the claim that the Soviet Union or China were ever Communist as defined by Marx in the Communist Manifesto.  Quite clearly, the apparatus of the State never 'withered away'.  However, we do know that some amount of collective ownership has been fine.  Even our liberal democracies founded on the principles of free enterprise and capitalism are actually mixed - we allow private ownership but also allow government to intervene in economic activities to achieve social aims and for the public good. 

Are there people here that are ready to tell me that the government shouldn't regulate Facebook and/or shouldn't have the power to break it up?
They both fit Marx's 3rd stage. That they didn't reach the 4th stage of Marx's history is because it's impossible. It's a pipe dream that will never be achieved. Marx was very specific that the 4th stage couldn't be defined, until we achieved it. He did this to separate his "scientific" socialism from the utopian socialists who preceded him, who made very specific claims about how the final utopian stage could be achieved, and what it would be like when it happened. This led to their being discredited, because they did things like claim the lions will lay down with the lambs, and new moons will appear in the sky, and other fanciful nonsense. Marx hit upon a brilliant rhetorical evade that avoided that problem. By claiming it was inevitable, but unknowable, he forestalled any concrete speculation along those lines, preventing his new version of socialism from being mocked because it predicted outlandish specifics. By the same token, it also allowed him to dismiss any critics who wanted to know exactly how it would come about, by just stating that humanity would have to advance before the process could be understood. It's basically the Southpark Underpants Gnome argument. Marx wasn't proposing anything real, he was being unrealistically utopian but refused to be pinned down on the topic.

So they're real socialism, and pretending otherwise is just an attempt to avoid responsibility.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: jhkim on August 26, 2021, 06:16:57 PM
  I find it interesting I saw a clip of the Phizer CEO saying he would not get the shot, since he is 59 and in good health.  I think that says all that needs to be said.

The CEO of Pfizer is Albert Bourla, who got his second shot back in March 2021.

https://www.pfizer.com/people/leadership/executives

https://twitter.com/albertbourla/status/1369734954498818052?lang=en

I think you might be referring to the December 2020 CNBC interview where he said that he wasn't going to "cut the line" to get his shot ahead of other people because he was in good health, but that was a matter of prioritizing the people who should receive the shot first.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6O6FqYYImk

  I am referring to that.  His stance at 59 said all that needs to be said.

So I'm 51 and in good health, and I did the same thing as Bourla. I didn't try to force my way to the head of the line, but once the vaccine was available to all adults, I got it. My second shot was in May 2021.

But it seems like you're drawing a different conclusion.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on August 26, 2021, 06:18:09 PM
  I find it interesting I saw a clip of the Phizer CEO saying he would not get the shot, since he is 59 and in good health.  I think that says all that needs to be said.

The CEO of Pfizer is Albert Bourla, who got his second shot back in March 2021.

https://www.pfizer.com/people/leadership/executives

https://twitter.com/albertbourla/status/1369734954498818052?lang=en

I think you might be referring to the December 2020 CNBC interview where he said that he wasn't going to "cut the line" to get his shot ahead of other people because he was in good health, but that was a matter of prioritizing the people who should receive the shot first.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6O6FqYYImk

  I am referring to that.  His stance at 59 said all that needs to be said.

So I'm 51 and in good health, and I did the same thing as Bourla. I didn't try to force my way to the head of the line, but once the vaccine was available to all adults, I got it. My second shot was in May 2021.

But it seems like you're drawing a different conclusion.

  I am.  His taking a dose would not cut any line whatsoever.  And it being his product, HE should have taken the first shot. 
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on August 26, 2021, 06:18:56 PM
  FDA approved.  I do love those official stamps.  Just like weapons of mass destruction, no troops on the ground, etc.  No thanks.

It's funny for a year people here screamed it wasn't even FDA approved and that was in some way meaningful, and now that it's FDA approved they dismiss that as not meaningful. Almost like they were arguing in bad faith for a year!

1.  Because the approval administrative procedures were circumvented the FDA approval is questionable, at best...

2.  None of the available jabs are actually approved, the Pfizer shot that was 'approved' does not actually exist yet... (notice how the EUA for the Pfizer shot wasn't actually pulled when the approval came through)

3.  Technically they are still an experimental medical treatment because they have not completed the required trials yet...  (FDA approval and 'experimental' are not necessarily mutually exclusive)

4.  Since you run a small business, have you mandated a shot yet...or are you just CYA right now because people have only blathered about HIPPA/privacy and nobody has brought up the ADA yet so you haven't actually had to deal with it?

1. The approval administrative procedure was not circumvented for this latest approval. I asked earlier for someone to provide a link supporting that claim and...crickets. Lots of people like to assert it, but nobody seems able to willing to actually back that claim up with anything other than their own personal guess.

2. The approved shot IS the existing shot. No change.

3. They did complete the required trials. Again, I keep asking for a link to claims like this and...crickets.

4. I have not mandated the shot. ADA doesn't cover not getting the vaccine - it's not a disability. Now if someone comes with a doctors note about how they are immunocompromised and the vaccine would not be in order, that would be respected under the ADA (if I were requiring the shot - which I am not). 

All of my employees got vaccinated on their own. I did influence it, but not how you might expect. In fact I never even said they should get it. I only said if anyone wanted to get it I would help them get the vaccine. And I told them I had gotten it. But I also told them they were not required to get it to work here and I would keep it private if people got it or didn't get it.

All I did was obtain approval from the City of LA to treat my employees as "health care support manufacturing" because we were making masks (and also donating many to local hospitals). And because "health care support" was one of the earlier vaccine check-boxes at a time when not everyone could get the vaccine, I offered my employees a personalized letter in their name addressed to the vaccine administrators explaining their job included the manufacturing of face masks, some of which were donated to local hospitals, and if the administrator thought it appropriate to please render vaccine services for that employee.

Because this was "special" permission to get the vaccine before some others could get it, my employees jumped on the opportunity and got the vaccine. Never mind that literally the very next week it was opened up to a lot more people to get the shot. And also never mind that not one vaccine administrator even looked at the letter. The mere idea that they were getting some sort of "privilege" that others couldn't get was enticing for them to get the vaccine. And every single one of them did, without any mandate or pressure.

1.  Surely you can show me the data that shows they followed the administrative procedures to the letter...After all, if a company can show that much efficiency compared to the normal development time, that would be some truly revolutionary methods that can be used by others.

2.  So you are saying the currently available jab is legally the same as what the FDA issued an approval letter for...

3.  See my response to 1 above and please provide a link as to how the control group is doing...

4.  Lucky you, everyone took the jab voluntarily...I am assuming that you will require any new employees to be vaccinated in order to be hired, right.  It is approved and all, right...which means it is no longer 'experimental' and doesn't have an EUA...and you said businesses should be able to do that.  I mean it isn't a 'disability' so obviously the ADA wouldn't apply, because laws never cover things that don't relate to their title, do they...  ;)

Could somebody please provide me a link for how long the jab is definitely effective for...

No man you're making an accusation: that the FDA approved vaccine bypassed protocols. The burden is on you to support that claim, not to me to "disprove" it. You're like the third person I've asked to support this claim who mysteriously is unwilling to back it up. Almost like it's just some shit you hear from some other rando on the Internet and just believe it without ever actually looking to see if it was correct because it furthered your bias about the topic.

As for new employees being vaccinated, no of course not. Why would I do that? I have in fact hired new people since then. They all got the vaccine. But I don't require the vaccine to work here and I didn't even ask about it when we hired them.  Just because I said (correctly) that a business can LEGALLY require the vaccine doesn't mean a business MUST require it and I don't. I feel we have a very safe workplace with or without the vaccine. We've only had one person at my company who had covid, and that was early on well prior to any vaccine existing, and they got it outside the business and didn't spread it to anyone here.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Shasarak on August 26, 2021, 07:15:29 PM
Edit - Let me put it another way.  I keep hearing things like 'the only good Communist is a dead Communist', but nobody gives Communists credit for killing more Communists than a single Capitalist ever did.

Hitler killed more Hitlers then any Churchill or Roosevelt ever did.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: moonsweeper on August 26, 2021, 07:24:04 PM
  FDA approved.  I do love those official stamps.  Just like weapons of mass destruction, no troops on the ground, etc.  No thanks.

It's funny for a year people here screamed it wasn't even FDA approved and that was in some way meaningful, and now that it's FDA approved they dismiss that as not meaningful. Almost like they were arguing in bad faith for a year!

1.  Because the approval administrative procedures were circumvented the FDA approval is questionable, at best...

2.  None of the available jabs are actually approved, the Pfizer shot that was 'approved' does not actually exist yet... (notice how the EUA for the Pfizer shot wasn't actually pulled when the approval came through)

3.  Technically they are still an experimental medical treatment because they have not completed the required trials yet...  (FDA approval and 'experimental' are not necessarily mutually exclusive)

4.  Since you run a small business, have you mandated a shot yet...or are you just CYA right now because people have only blathered about HIPPA/privacy and nobody has brought up the ADA yet so you haven't actually had to deal with it?

1. The approval administrative procedure was not circumvented for this latest approval. I asked earlier for someone to provide a link supporting that claim and...crickets. Lots of people like to assert it, but nobody seems able to willing to actually back that claim up with anything other than their own personal guess.

2. The approved shot IS the existing shot. No change.

3. They did complete the required trials. Again, I keep asking for a link to claims like this and...crickets.

4. I have not mandated the shot. ADA doesn't cover not getting the vaccine - it's not a disability. Now if someone comes with a doctors note about how they are immunocompromised and the vaccine would not be in order, that would be respected under the ADA (if I were requiring the shot - which I am not). 

All of my employees got vaccinated on their own. I did influence it, but not how you might expect. In fact I never even said they should get it. I only said if anyone wanted to get it I would help them get the vaccine. And I told them I had gotten it. But I also told them they were not required to get it to work here and I would keep it private if people got it or didn't get it.

All I did was obtain approval from the City of LA to treat my employees as "health care support manufacturing" because we were making masks (and also donating many to local hospitals). And because "health care support" was one of the earlier vaccine check-boxes at a time when not everyone could get the vaccine, I offered my employees a personalized letter in their name addressed to the vaccine administrators explaining their job included the manufacturing of face masks, some of which were donated to local hospitals, and if the administrator thought it appropriate to please render vaccine services for that employee.

Because this was "special" permission to get the vaccine before some others could get it, my employees jumped on the opportunity and got the vaccine. Never mind that literally the very next week it was opened up to a lot more people to get the shot. And also never mind that not one vaccine administrator even looked at the letter. The mere idea that they were getting some sort of "privilege" that others couldn't get was enticing for them to get the vaccine. And every single one of them did, without any mandate or pressure.

1.  Surely you can show me the data that shows they followed the administrative procedures to the letter...After all, if a company can show that much efficiency compared to the normal development time, that would be some truly revolutionary methods that can be used by others.

2.  So you are saying the currently available jab is legally the same as what the FDA issued an approval letter for...

3.  See my response to 1 above and please provide a link as to how the control group is doing...

4.  Lucky you, everyone took the jab voluntarily...I am assuming that you will require any new employees to be vaccinated in order to be hired, right.  It is approved and all, right...which means it is no longer 'experimental' and doesn't have an EUA...and you said businesses should be able to do that.  I mean it isn't a 'disability' so obviously the ADA wouldn't apply, because laws never cover things that don't relate to their title, do they...  ;)

Could somebody please provide me a link for how long the jab is definitely effective for...

No man you're making an accusation: that the FDA approved vaccine bypassed protocols. The burden is on you to support that claim, not to me to "disprove" it. You're like the third person I've asked to support this claim who mysteriously is unwilling to back it up. Almost like it's just some shit you hear from some other rando on the Internet and just believe it without ever actually looking to see if it was correct because it furthered your bias about the topic.

Aww, I was hoping for a link to the complete data for the clinical trial because I can't seem to find one anywhere...   :(

As for new employees being vaccinated, no of course not. Why would I do that? I have in fact hired new people since then. They all got the vaccine. But I don't require the vaccine to work here and I didn't even ask about it when we hired them.  Just because I said (correctly) that a business can LEGALLY require the vaccine doesn't mean a business MUST require it and I don't. I feel we have a very safe workplace with or without the vaccine. We've only had one person at my company who had covid, and that was early on well prior to any vaccine existing, and they got it outside the business and didn't spread it to anyone here.

Wow.  For someone so worked up about the 'approval' and the employer's right to mandate a medical procedure, I am utterly amazed that you didn't even ASK any new employees about their status or bother to mandate to protect your current employees...

*cough* ADA *cough*

...sorry, had something in my throat...
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on August 26, 2021, 08:57:21 PM
  FDA approved.  I do love those official stamps.  Just like weapons of mass destruction, no troops on the ground, etc.  No thanks.

It's funny for a year people here screamed it wasn't even FDA approved and that was in some way meaningful, and now that it's FDA approved they dismiss that as not meaningful. Almost like they were arguing in bad faith for a year!

1.  Because the approval administrative procedures were circumvented the FDA approval is questionable, at best...

2.  None of the available jabs are actually approved, the Pfizer shot that was 'approved' does not actually exist yet... (notice how the EUA for the Pfizer shot wasn't actually pulled when the approval came through)

3.  Technically they are still an experimental medical treatment because they have not completed the required trials yet...  (FDA approval and 'experimental' are not necessarily mutually exclusive)

4.  Since you run a small business, have you mandated a shot yet...or are you just CYA right now because people have only blathered about HIPPA/privacy and nobody has brought up the ADA yet so you haven't actually had to deal with it?

1. The approval administrative procedure was not circumvented for this latest approval. I asked earlier for someone to provide a link supporting that claim and...crickets. Lots of people like to assert it, but nobody seems able to willing to actually back that claim up with anything other than their own personal guess.

2. The approved shot IS the existing shot. No change.

3. They did complete the required trials. Again, I keep asking for a link to claims like this and...crickets.

4. I have not mandated the shot. ADA doesn't cover not getting the vaccine - it's not a disability. Now if someone comes with a doctors note about how they are immunocompromised and the vaccine would not be in order, that would be respected under the ADA (if I were requiring the shot - which I am not). 

All of my employees got vaccinated on their own. I did influence it, but not how you might expect. In fact I never even said they should get it. I only said if anyone wanted to get it I would help them get the vaccine. And I told them I had gotten it. But I also told them they were not required to get it to work here and I would keep it private if people got it or didn't get it.

All I did was obtain approval from the City of LA to treat my employees as "health care support manufacturing" because we were making masks (and also donating many to local hospitals). And because "health care support" was one of the earlier vaccine check-boxes at a time when not everyone could get the vaccine, I offered my employees a personalized letter in their name addressed to the vaccine administrators explaining their job included the manufacturing of face masks, some of which were donated to local hospitals, and if the administrator thought it appropriate to please render vaccine services for that employee.

Because this was "special" permission to get the vaccine before some others could get it, my employees jumped on the opportunity and got the vaccine. Never mind that literally the very next week it was opened up to a lot more people to get the shot. And also never mind that not one vaccine administrator even looked at the letter. The mere idea that they were getting some sort of "privilege" that others couldn't get was enticing for them to get the vaccine. And every single one of them did, without any mandate or pressure.

1.  Surely you can show me the data that shows they followed the administrative procedures to the letter...After all, if a company can show that much efficiency compared to the normal development time, that would be some truly revolutionary methods that can be used by others.

2.  So you are saying the currently available jab is legally the same as what the FDA issued an approval letter for...

3.  See my response to 1 above and please provide a link as to how the control group is doing...

4.  Lucky you, everyone took the jab voluntarily...I am assuming that you will require any new employees to be vaccinated in order to be hired, right.  It is approved and all, right...which means it is no longer 'experimental' and doesn't have an EUA...and you said businesses should be able to do that.  I mean it isn't a 'disability' so obviously the ADA wouldn't apply, because laws never cover things that don't relate to their title, do they...  ;)

Could somebody please provide me a link for how long the jab is definitely effective for...

No man you're making an accusation: that the FDA approved vaccine bypassed protocols. The burden is on you to support that claim, not to me to "disprove" it. You're like the third person I've asked to support this claim who mysteriously is unwilling to back it up. Almost like it's just some shit you hear from some other rando on the Internet and just believe it without ever actually looking to see if it was correct because it furthered your bias about the topic.

Aww, I was hoping for a link to the complete data for the clinical trial because I can't seem to find one anywhere...   :(

As for new employees being vaccinated, no of course not. Why would I do that? I have in fact hired new people since then. They all got the vaccine. But I don't require the vaccine to work here and I didn't even ask about it when we hired them.  Just because I said (correctly) that a business can LEGALLY require the vaccine doesn't mean a business MUST require it and I don't. I feel we have a very safe workplace with or without the vaccine. We've only had one person at my company who had covid, and that was early on well prior to any vaccine existing, and they got it outside the business and didn't spread it to anyone here.

Wow.  For someone so worked up about the 'approval' and the employer's right to mandate a medical procedure, I am utterly amazed that you didn't even ASK any new employees about their status or bother to mandate to protect your current employees...

*cough* ADA *cough*

...sorry, had something in my throat...

I've been an attorney for 26 years. I was a practicing employment law attorney representing both companies and employees on ADA claims for years. Asking about the vaccine is not, in any way, an ADA violation. Requiring the vaccine is not, in any way, a violation of the ADA unless it involves a doctors note specifying some medical condition which prevents you from getting the vaccine. You don't know shit about the ADA if you think it would be an ADA issue.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: moonsweeper on August 26, 2021, 09:43:01 PM
  FDA approved.  I do love those official stamps.  Just like weapons of mass destruction, no troops on the ground, etc.  No thanks.


It's funny for a year people here screamed it wasn't even FDA approved and that was in some way meaningful, and now that it's FDA approved they dismiss that as not meaningful. Almost like they were arguing in bad faith for a year!

1.  Because the approval administrative procedures were circumvented the FDA approval is questionable, at best...

2.  None of the available jabs are actually approved, the Pfizer shot that was 'approved' does not actually exist yet... (notice how the EUA for the Pfizer shot wasn't actually pulled when the approval came through)

3.  Technically they are still an experimental medical treatment because they have not completed the required trials yet...  (FDA approval and 'experimental' are not necessarily mutually exclusive)

4.  Since you run a small business, have you mandated a shot yet...or are you just CYA right now because people have only blathered about HIPPA/privacy and nobody has brought up the ADA yet so you haven't actually had to deal with it?

1. The approval administrative procedure was not circumvented for this latest approval. I asked earlier for someone to provide a link supporting that claim and...crickets. Lots of people like to assert it, but nobody seems able to willing to actually back that claim up with anything other than their own personal guess.

2. The approved shot IS the existing shot. No change.

3. They did complete the required trials. Again, I keep asking for a link to claims like this and...crickets.

4. I have not mandated the shot. ADA doesn't cover not getting the vaccine - it's not a disability. Now if someone comes with a doctors note about how they are immunocompromised and the vaccine would not be in order, that would be respected under the ADA (if I were requiring the shot - which I am not). 

All of my employees got vaccinated on their own. I did influence it, but not how you might expect. In fact I never even said they should get it. I only said if anyone wanted to get it I would help them get the vaccine. And I told them I had gotten it. But I also told them they were not required to get it to work here and I would keep it private if people got it or didn't get it.

All I did was obtain approval from the City of LA to treat my employees as "health care support manufacturing" because we were making masks (and also donating many to local hospitals). And because "health care support" was one of the earlier vaccine check-boxes at a time when not everyone could get the vaccine, I offered my employees a personalized letter in their name addressed to the vaccine administrators explaining their job included the manufacturing of face masks, some of which were donated to local hospitals, and if the administrator thought it appropriate to please render vaccine services for that employee.

Because this was "special" permission to get the vaccine before some others could get it, my employees jumped on the opportunity and got the vaccine. Never mind that literally the very next week it was opened up to a lot more people to get the shot. And also never mind that not one vaccine administrator even looked at the letter. The mere idea that they were getting some sort of "privilege" that others couldn't get was enticing for them to get the vaccine. And every single one of them did, without any mandate or pressure.

1.  Surely you can show me the data that shows they followed the administrative procedures to the letter...After all, if a company can show that much efficiency compared to the normal development time, that would be some truly revolutionary methods that can be used by others.

2.  So you are saying the currently available jab is legally the same as what the FDA issued an approval letter for...

3.  See my response to 1 above and please provide a link as to how the control group is doing...

4.  Lucky you, everyone took the jab voluntarily...I am assuming that you will require any new employees to be vaccinated in order to be hired, right.  It is approved and all, right...which means it is no longer 'experimental' and doesn't have an EUA...and you said businesses should be able to do that.  I mean it isn't a 'disability' so obviously the ADA wouldn't apply, because laws never cover things that don't relate to their title, do they...  ;)

Could somebody please provide me a link for how long the jab is definitely effective for...

No man you're making an accusation: that the FDA approved vaccine bypassed protocols. The burden is on you to support that claim, not to me to "disprove" it. You're like the third person I've asked to support this claim who mysteriously is unwilling to back it up. Almost like it's just some shit you hear from some other rando on the Internet and just believe it without ever actually looking to see if it was correct because it furthered your bias about the topic.

Aww, I was hoping for a link to the complete data for the clinical trial because I can't seem to find one anywhere...   :(

As for new employees being vaccinated, no of course not. Why would I do that? I have in fact hired new people since then. They all got the vaccine. But I don't require the vaccine to work here and I didn't even ask about it when we hired them.  Just because I said (correctly) that a business can LEGALLY require the vaccine doesn't mean a business MUST require it and I don't. I feel we have a very safe workplace with or without the vaccine. We've only had one person at my company who had covid, and that was early on well prior to any vaccine existing, and they got it outside the business and didn't spread it to anyone here.

Wow.  For someone so worked up about the 'approval' and the employer's right to mandate a medical procedure, I am utterly amazed that you didn't even ASK any new employees about their status or bother to mandate to protect your current employees...

*cough* ADA *cough*

...sorry, had something in my throat...

I've been an attorney for 26 years. I was a practicing employment law attorney representing both companies and employees on ADA claims for years. Asking about the vaccine is not, in any way, an ADA violation. Requiring the vaccine is not, in any way, a violation of the ADA unless it involves a doctors note specifying some medical condition which prevents you from getting the vaccine. You don't know shit about the ADA if you think it would be an ADA issue.


Oh goody. An actual, real, live attorney...why didn't you answer point 2? That would just take a simple yes or no.

Quote from: moonsweeper
2.  None of the available jabs are actually approved, the Pfizer shot that was 'approved' does not actually exist yet... (notice how the EUA for the Pfizer shot wasn't actually pulled when the approval came through)

Quote from: Mistwell
2. The approved shot IS the existing shot. No change.

Quote from: moonsweeper
2.  So you are saying the currently available jab is legally the same as what the FDA issued an approval letter for...
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on August 31, 2021, 10:30:53 PM
Here's an appalling example of judicial overreach. A woman, who was advised by her doctor not to take a covid-19 vaccine because she had had adverse reactions to vaccines in the past, was stripped of her parental rights, until she gets the jab. This wasn't even a custody hearing, it was a Zoom meeting about expenses.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2021/08/30/chicago-judge-rules-mom-cant-see-son-not-vaccinated/5647445001/
https://news.yahoo.com/judge-blocks-mother-shared-custody-145906661.html

The government and its officials subjecting its citizens to forced medical procedures is a line that should never be crossed.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: FelixGamingX1 on August 31, 2021, 10:53:40 PM
Here's an appalling example of judicial overreach. A woman, who was advised by her doctor not to take a covid-19 vaccine because she had had adverse reactions to vaccines in the past, was stripped of her parental rights, until she gets the jab. This wasn't even a custody hearing, it was a Zoom meeting about expenses.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2021/08/30/chicago-judge-rules-mom-cant-see-son-not-vaccinated/5647445001/
https://news.yahoo.com/judge-blocks-mother-shared-custody-145906661.html

The government and its officials subjecting its citizens to forced medical procedures is a line that should never be crossed.

That’s outrageous.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on August 31, 2021, 10:59:44 PM
Here's an appalling example of judicial overreach. A woman, who was advised by her doctor not to take a covid-19 vaccine because she had had adverse reactions to vaccines in the past, was stripped of her parental rights, until she gets the jab. This wasn't even a custody hearing, it was a Zoom meeting about expenses.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2021/08/30/chicago-judge-rules-mom-cant-see-son-not-vaccinated/5647445001/
https://news.yahoo.com/judge-blocks-mother-shared-custody-145906661.html

The government and its officials subjecting its citizens to forced medical procedures is a line that should never be crossed.

Fortunately that judge reversed his decision (https://blockclubchicago.org/2021/08/30/pilsen-mom-unvaccinated-can-see-son-visitation-judge-reversal-order/). Probably because someone in a position of higher authority called him and told him he was about to get his ass handed to him if he tried to do that.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: FelixGamingX1 on September 01, 2021, 07:54:28 PM
Still afraid of the needle? https://www.businessinsider.com/2-top-fda-officials-resigned-biden-booster-plan-reports-2021-9?amp
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on September 01, 2021, 09:23:09 PM
Here's an appalling example of judicial overreach. A woman, who was advised by her doctor not to take a covid-19 vaccine because she had had adverse reactions to vaccines in the past, was stripped of her parental rights, until she gets the jab. This wasn't even a custody hearing, it was a Zoom meeting about expenses.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2021/08/30/chicago-judge-rules-mom-cant-see-son-not-vaccinated/5647445001/
https://news.yahoo.com/judge-blocks-mother-shared-custody-145906661.html

The government and its officials subjecting its citizens to forced medical procedures is a line that should never be crossed.

Fortunately that judge reversed his decision (https://blockclubchicago.org/2021/08/30/pilsen-mom-unvaccinated-can-see-son-visitation-judge-reversal-order/). Probably because someone in a position of higher authority called him and told him he was about to get his ass handed to him if he tried to do that.
That's good news.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on September 04, 2021, 06:32:35 AM
https://news.yahoo.com/australia-debuts-apos-orwellian-apos-120948511.html

Australia is testing an app that will text people under self-quarantine at random times throughout the day, and they'll have to respond within a certain time limit with a geotagged photo of themselves, proving that they're really at home where they're supposed to be, or the (https://twitter.com/section_117/status/1432535140496982017) police (https://twitter.com/aussie000050/status/1432533975109570561) will (https://twitter.com/RedRum2198/status/1432556410521325568) be (https://twitter.com/XrPimpin/status/1431602956302831621) summoned (https://twitter.com/XrPimpin/status/1431602956302831621).

https://www.techspot.com/news/91071-australia-passes-surveillance-bill-police-take-over-accounts.html

Plus, they pushed through a bill in less than 24 hours that gives themselves the authority to alter anything they want online and even take over people's accounts, without any due process or even a formal accusation of a crime. Some retired government flunky pinky promised they'd only use the sweeping new powers against really bad people, which I completely trust because no government that's promised not to abuse their sweeping new powers has ever gone back on their word.

In unrelated news, Australia has decided to rename themselves Oceania. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_geography_of_Nineteen_Eighty-Four#Oceania)
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: FelixGamingX1 on September 04, 2021, 06:49:24 AM
Here’s another piece of troubling news. De la Hoya has been hospitalized with Covid-19 even though he is in top shape, and fully vaxxed. It appears the virus continues to win. https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2021/09/03/us/oscar-de-la-hoya-covid-spt-intl/index.html
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on September 04, 2021, 07:48:52 AM
Here’s another piece of troubling news. De la Hoya has been hospitalized with Covid-19 even though he is in top shape, and fully vaxxed. It appears the virus continues to win. https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2021/09/03/us/oscar-de-la-hoya-covid-spt-intl/index.html

  I am not so sure anyone who has used as much coke as he has is in top shape.   Fighters approaching 50, regardless of their appearance, IME are anything but top shape.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on September 11, 2021, 06:12:58 AM
Here’s another piece of troubling news. De la Hoya has been hospitalized with Covid-19 even though he is in top shape, and fully vaxxed. It appears the virus continues to win. https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2021/09/03/us/oscar-de-la-hoya-covid-spt-intl/index.html

Shame he allowed himself to have his immune system compromised by the jab...
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on September 11, 2021, 11:32:09 AM
Here’s another piece of troubling news. De la Hoya has been hospitalized with Covid-19 even though he is in top shape, and fully vaxxed. It appears the virus continues to win. https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2021/09/03/us/oscar-de-la-hoya-covid-spt-intl/index.html

Shame he allowed himself to have his immune system compromised by the jab...
Shame you feel the need to post such nonsensical misinformation.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on September 11, 2021, 11:42:42 AM
Shame you feel the need to post such nonsensical misinformation.

Sure, because it's pure coincidence that heavily vaccinated Israel has infections running out of control at the end of the summer.

Go bore someone who believes the drivel that comes out of your mouth.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ghostmaker on September 11, 2021, 12:49:28 PM
Shame you feel the need to post such nonsensical misinformation.

Sure, because it's pure coincidence that heavily vaccinated Israel has infections running out of control at the end of the summer.

Go bore someone who believes the drivel that comes out of your mouth.
He's right up there with the guy who insisted that the scan from the 5E PHB was photoshopped to include Pundit's name in the credits.

What amazes me is that none of these retards has the brains to stop and consider... if the government can mandate this, what ELSE could they mandate?

But then, I suspect they are wannabe fascists and looking forward to pushing other people around.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: FelixGamingX1 on September 11, 2021, 12:54:35 PM
if the government can mandate this, what ELSE could they mandate?

Oh you don’t want to know. We still have 3 whole years of suffering ahead of us.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on September 11, 2021, 01:18:12 PM
Shame you feel the need to post such nonsensical misinformation.

Sure, because it's pure coincidence that heavily vaccinated Israel has infections running out of control at the end of the summer.

Go bore someone who believes the drivel that comes out of your mouth.
He's right up there with the guy who insisted that the scan from the 5E PHB was photoshopped to include Pundit's name in the credits.

What amazes me is that none of these retards has the brains to stop and consider... if the government can mandate this, what ELSE could they mandate?

But then, I suspect they are wannabe fascists and looking forward to pushing other people around.
What you suspect has never lined up with reality, so keep on guessing wrong, little pirate. I'm sure you have to find some solace in your weird imaginings while taking your turn in the barrel.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on September 12, 2021, 12:06:45 AM
Here’s another piece of troubling news. De la Hoya has been hospitalized with Covid-19 even though he is in top shape, and fully vaxxed. It appears the virus continues to win. https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2021/09/03/us/oscar-de-la-hoya-covid-spt-intl/index.html

  I am not so sure anyone who has used as much coke as he has is in top shape.   Fighters approaching 50, regardless of their appearance, IME are anything but top shape.

Willing to bet he's in better shape than you
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ghostmaker on September 12, 2021, 01:00:10 AM
Shame you feel the need to post such nonsensical misinformation.

Sure, because it's pure coincidence that heavily vaccinated Israel has infections running out of control at the end of the summer.

Go bore someone who believes the drivel that comes out of your mouth.
He's right up there with the guy who insisted that the scan from the 5E PHB was photoshopped to include Pundit's name in the credits.

What amazes me is that none of these retards has the brains to stop and consider... if the government can mandate this, what ELSE could they mandate?

But then, I suspect they are wannabe fascists and looking forward to pushing other people around.
What you suspect has never lined up with reality, so keep on guessing wrong, little pirate. I'm sure you have to find some solace in your weird imaginings while taking your turn in the barrel.
Sorry, I can't understand you with all those dicks in your mouth. But then, fellating tyrants is your jam.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on September 12, 2021, 03:25:43 AM
Here’s another piece of troubling news. De la Hoya has been hospitalized with Covid-19 even though he is in top shape, and fully vaxxed. It appears the virus continues to win. https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2021/09/03/us/oscar-de-la-hoya-covid-spt-intl/index.html

  I am not so sure anyone who has used as much coke as he has is in top shape.   Fighters approaching 50, regardless of their appearance, IME are anything but top shape.

Willing to bet he's in better shape than you

   It is a bet you might lose.  I am waaay behind on abusing coke and brain damage.     Even if he is,  it sort of shoots holes in your position to use him as a reason to get vaxxed doesnt it?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: FelixGamingX1 on September 12, 2021, 11:46:01 PM
Nurses quit amid vaccination mandate. Births on pause…
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/new-york-hospital-pause-delivering-babies-after-staffers-quit-rather-n1279001
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Shasarak on September 12, 2021, 11:51:46 PM
Um, births dont work like that.  :o
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ratman_tf on September 13, 2021, 12:03:40 AM
Um, births dont work like that.  :o

That's what my reaction was. The rhetoric is getting quite silly.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Squidi on September 13, 2021, 12:14:09 AM
Um, births dont work like that.  :o
The hospital is putting a pause on delivery, not the pregnant women. They can still have their children at a different hospital, through a midwife, in a taxi, or just taking a squat in a field somewhere.

Honestly, avoiding a hospital birth may be a better choice in the long run, so ultimately, mass resignations are a good thing here. Not for the hospital, of course.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on September 13, 2021, 12:57:23 AM
Here’s another piece of troubling news. De la Hoya has been hospitalized with Covid-19 even though he is in top shape, and fully vaxxed. It appears the virus continues to win. https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2021/09/03/us/oscar-de-la-hoya-covid-spt-intl/index.html

  I am not so sure anyone who has used as much coke as he has is in top shape.   Fighters approaching 50, regardless of their appearance, IME are anything but top shape.

Willing to bet he's in better shape than you

   It is a bet you might lose.  I am waaay behind on abusing coke and brain damage.     Even if he is,  it sort of shoots holes in your position to use him as a reason to get vaxxed doesnt it?

I raised the matter and was clear he had been fully vaxxed. I was pointing out there remains risk for pretty much everyone, no matter their fitness or age, and even risk if you're vaccinated. But if you think past cocaine use in some way is a risk factor for covid I look forward to that evidence or even logic.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Shasarak on September 13, 2021, 01:57:25 AM
Um, births dont work like that.  :o
The hospital is putting a pause on delivery, not the pregnant women. They can still have their children at a different hospital, through a midwife, in a taxi, or just taking a squat in a field somewhere.

Honestly, avoiding a hospital birth may be a better choice in the long run, so ultimately, mass resignations are a good thing here. Not for the hospital, of course.

Oh, I see.

So it was like that Hospital, where I am sure that Happydaze does not work, who put a pause on gun shot victims because they were specialising their treatment of horse paste overdosers.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on September 13, 2021, 05:09:02 AM
Um, births dont work like that.  :o
At most, it's going to be a reduced availability of planned labor inductions and c-sections along with less robust patient teaching and aftercare. Babies that are due for natural birth will still be handled, even if they have to be delivered in the ED (not an ideal solutuon, especially considering ED loads, but it can work in a pinch).
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on September 13, 2021, 07:33:43 AM
Like I said before:

So much for 'my body, my choice'.

Nobody is forcing you to make that choice.

   Aged poorly.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on September 13, 2021, 07:51:23 AM
I raised the matter and was clear he had been fully vaxxed. I was pointing out there remains risk for pretty much everyone, no matter their fitness or age, and even risk if you're vaccinated. But if you think past cocaine use in some way is a risk factor for covid I look forward to that evidence or even logic.

Nope, it's not "a risk for everyone". It's a trivial risk barely worthy of consideration for the majority.

Fitness and age matter implicitly, since they bear directly on that risk. Thank fuck you're not an actuary.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ghostmaker on September 13, 2021, 08:12:48 AM
Like I said before:

So much for 'my body, my choice'.

Nobody is forcing you to make that choice.

   Aged poorly.
Ouch. I'd forgotten about that exchange.

Well done, sir.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on September 13, 2021, 12:49:29 PM
I think it's important to remember Biden's second turn to outright fascism is an attempt to distract attention from his disastrous handling of the Afghanistan withdrawal.

A fantastically successfully attempt, I might add.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: DM_Curt on September 13, 2021, 01:04:13 PM
I think it's important to remember Biden's second turn to outright fascism is an attempt to distract attention from his disastrous handling of the Afghanistan withdrawal.

A fantastically successfully attempt, I might add.
Sadly, every attempt to distract from a failure or scandal, is going to be to give us another failure or scandal.  Or a puffed-up false flag of some sort that injures, imprisons or kills Americans.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Zelen on September 13, 2021, 06:29:21 PM
Australia is the model.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on September 13, 2021, 06:30:06 PM
Like I said before:

So much for 'my body, my choice'.

Nobody is forcing you to make that choice.

   Aged poorly.
Ouch. I'd forgotten about that exchange.

Well done, sir.

Is anyone forcing him to make that choice?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ghostmaker on September 13, 2021, 08:06:23 PM
Like I said before:

So much for 'my body, my choice'.

Nobody is forcing you to make that choice.

   Aged poorly.
Ouch. I'd forgotten about that exchange.

Well done, sir.

Is anyone forcing him to make that choice?
I would say your lord and savior, Sleepy Joe, is taking a crack at it.

(Ironically, I'm already vaccinated.)

But hey, keep talking. Maybe you'll say something to make up for all the other stupid shit you've said.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: FelixGamingX1 on September 13, 2021, 11:32:20 PM
Um, births dont work like that.  :o

Lil bastards just gonna have to wait. This could actually set a new step in human evolution. Women would eventually be able to have 10-12 mo/ pregnancies.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on September 14, 2021, 02:58:50 PM
Like I said before:

So much for 'my body, my choice'.

Nobody is forcing you to make that choice.

   Aged poorly.
Ouch. I'd forgotten about that exchange.

Well done, sir.

Is anyone forcing him to make that choice?
I would say your lord and savior, Sleepy Joe, is taking a crack at it.

(Ironically, I'm already vaccinated.)

But hey, keep talking. Maybe you'll say something to make up for all the other stupid shit you've said.

So...do you work somewhere covered by the order and was testing not an option for some reason?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on September 14, 2021, 03:20:54 PM
  Is your patience getting thin?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on September 14, 2021, 03:35:46 PM
  Is your patience getting thin?

I am a parent.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on September 14, 2021, 03:48:00 PM
  Is your patience getting thin?

I am a parent.

  So is Joe.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ghostmaker on September 14, 2021, 04:18:43 PM
Like I said before:

So much for 'my body, my choice'.

Nobody is forcing you to make that choice.

   Aged poorly.
Ouch. I'd forgotten about that exchange.

Well done, sir.

Is anyone forcing him to make that choice?
I would say your lord and savior, Sleepy Joe, is taking a crack at it.

(Ironically, I'm already vaccinated.)

But hey, keep talking. Maybe you'll say something to make up for all the other stupid shit you've said.

So...do you work somewhere covered by the order and was testing not an option for some reason?
If you can't see what a colossal overreach this is, I can't help you.

But I think you do see it, and you like it.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on September 14, 2021, 07:57:54 PM
In addition to illegal immigrants, what's another group that's exempt from Biden's fascistvaccine mandate?

Members of Congress and their staff.

https://www.newsweek.com/members-congress-staff-exempt-biden-covid-vaccine-mandate-1627859
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Shasarak on September 14, 2021, 08:02:12 PM
In addition to illegal immigrants, what's another group that's exempt from Biden's fascistvaccine mandate?

Members of Congress and their staff.

https://www.newsweek.com/members-congress-staff-exempt-biden-covid-vaccine-mandate-1627859

The Executive branch can not dictate to the Legislative or Judicial branches unless Biden wants to poke the Supreme Court out of its slumber.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on September 14, 2021, 08:15:20 PM
In addition to illegal immigrants, what's another group that's exempt from Biden's fascistvaccine mandate?

Members of Congress and their staff.

https://www.newsweek.com/members-congress-staff-exempt-biden-covid-vaccine-mandate-1627859

The Executive branch can not dictate to the Legislative or Judicial branches unless Biden wants to poke the Supreme Court out of its slumber.
Overriding the Supreme Court's decision on the rent moratorium should have done that already.

Plenty of laws apply to Congress, including those that judgment call by the executive branch.

This feels more like a favor.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Shasarak on September 14, 2021, 08:27:55 PM
In addition to illegal immigrants, what's another group that's exempt from Biden's fascistvaccine mandate?

Members of Congress and their staff.

https://www.newsweek.com/members-congress-staff-exempt-biden-covid-vaccine-mandate-1627859

The Executive branch can not dictate to the Legislative or Judicial branches unless Biden wants to poke the Supreme Court out of its slumber.
Overriding the Supreme Court's decision on the rent moratorium should have done that already.

Plenty of laws apply to Congress, including those that judgment call by the executive branch.

This feels more like a favor.

The Rent moratorium does not explicitly target the Supreme Court
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on September 14, 2021, 08:29:22 PM
In addition to illegal immigrants, what's another group that's exempt from Biden's fascistvaccine mandate?

Members of Congress and their staff.

https://www.newsweek.com/members-congress-staff-exempt-biden-covid-vaccine-mandate-1627859

The Executive branch can not dictate to the Legislative or Judicial branches unless Biden wants to poke the Supreme Court out of its slumber.
Overriding the Supreme Court's decision on the rent moratorium should have done that already.

Plenty of laws apply to Congress, including those that judgment call by the executive branch.

This feels more like a favor.

The Rent moratorium does not explicitly target the Supreme Court
It explicitly targets their authority. Biden just ignored and overrode one of their rulings.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on September 14, 2021, 08:32:00 PM
Back before the ACLU turned against liberty:
https://www.aclu.org/sites/default/files/pdfs/privacy/pemic_report.pdf?fbclid=IwAR1BSdVmEdg7mQSToww5aosRLGrufJKUDpuWP3_Q_gUnjPCE18iBJBE2aBM

Quote from: Pandemic Preparedness (2008)
Conflating Public Health with National Security and Law Enforcement

Rather than focusing on well-established measures for protecting the lives and health of Americans, policymakers have recently embraced an approach that views public health policy through the prism of national security and law enforcement.  This model assumes that we must “trade liberty for security.”  As a result, instead of helping individuals and communities through education and provision of health care, today’s pandemic prevention focuses on taking aggressive, coercive actions against those who are sick.  People, rather than the disease, become the enemy.

Lessons from History

American history contains vivid reminders that grafting the values of law enforcement and national security onto public health is both ineffective and dangerous.  Too often, fears aroused by disease and epidemics have justified abuses of state power. Highly discriminatory and forcible vaccination and quarantine measures adopted in response to outbreaks of the plague and smallpox over the past century have consistently accelerated rather than slowed the spread of disease, while fomenting public distrust and, in some cases, riots.

The lessons from history should be kept in mind whenever we are told by government officials that “tough,” liberty-limiting actions are needed to protect us from dangerous diseases.  Specifically:
• Coercion and brute force are rarely necessary.  In fact they are generally counterproductive—they gratuitously breed public distrust and encourage the people who are most in need of care to evade public health authorities.
• On the other hand, effective, preventive strategies that rely on voluntary participation do work.  Simply put, people do not want to contract smallpox, influenza or other dangerous diseases.  They want positive government help in avoiding and treating disease.  As long as public officials are working to help people rather than to punish them, people are likely to engage willingly in any and all efforts to keep their families and communities healthy.
• Minorities and other socially disadvantaged populations tend to bear the brunt of tough public health measures. 

What's ironic is what they were protesting falls short of what's already happened.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: FelixGamingX1 on September 14, 2021, 09:11:24 PM
Just take the needle, let me know how it goes.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Shasarak on September 14, 2021, 09:26:05 PM
In addition to illegal immigrants, what's another group that's exempt from Biden's fascistvaccine mandate?

Members of Congress and their staff.

https://www.newsweek.com/members-congress-staff-exempt-biden-covid-vaccine-mandate-1627859

The Executive branch can not dictate to the Legislative or Judicial branches unless Biden wants to poke the Supreme Court out of its slumber.
Overriding the Supreme Court's decision on the rent moratorium should have done that already.

Plenty of laws apply to Congress, including those that judgment call by the executive branch.

This feels more like a favor.

The Rent moratorium does not explicitly target the Supreme Court
It explicitly targets their authority. Biden just ignored and overrode one of their rulings.

But it does not specifically tell them that they need to get all of the staff vaccinated and or tested weekly or face being fined by what ever your work and safety organisation is.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on September 14, 2021, 10:13:40 PM
In addition to illegal immigrants, what's another group that's exempt from Biden's fascistvaccine mandate?

Members of Congress and their staff.

https://www.newsweek.com/members-congress-staff-exempt-biden-covid-vaccine-mandate-1627859

The Executive branch can not dictate to the Legislative or Judicial branches unless Biden wants to poke the Supreme Court out of its slumber.
Overriding the Supreme Court's decision on the rent moratorium should have done that already.

Plenty of laws apply to Congress, including those that judgment call by the executive branch.

This feels more like a favor.

The Rent moratorium does not explicitly target the Supreme Court
It explicitly targets their authority. Biden just ignored and overrode one of their rulings.

But it does not specifically tell them that they need to get all of the staff vaccinated and or tested weekly or face being fined by what ever your work and safety organisation is.
I think directly flouting the only real power they have is a lot more of a threat to the Supreme Court than requiring them to abide by work standards that are being applied universally across the entire country.

And the the idea that people just assume they should be exempt deeply troubles me, because it shows how deep the belief that a different set of rules should apply to the ruling class runs.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Shasarak on September 14, 2021, 11:11:23 PM
In addition to illegal immigrants, what's another group that's exempt from Biden's fascistvaccine mandate?

Members of Congress and their staff.

https://www.newsweek.com/members-congress-staff-exempt-biden-covid-vaccine-mandate-1627859

The Executive branch can not dictate to the Legislative or Judicial branches unless Biden wants to poke the Supreme Court out of its slumber.
Overriding the Supreme Court's decision on the rent moratorium should have done that already.

Plenty of laws apply to Congress, including those that judgment call by the executive branch.

This feels more like a favor.

The Rent moratorium does not explicitly target the Supreme Court
It explicitly targets their authority. Biden just ignored and overrode one of their rulings.

But it does not specifically tell them that they need to get all of the staff vaccinated and or tested weekly or face being fined by what ever your work and safety organisation is.
I think directly flouting the only real power they have is a lot more of a threat to the Supreme Court than requiring them to abide by work standards that are being applied universally across the entire country.

You mean universally except for the people not required to abide by the universal work standards applied to companies of more then 100 people?

Thats not really universal is it.

Quote
And the the idea that people just assume they should be exempt deeply troubles me, because it shows how deep the belief that a different set of rules should apply to the ruling class runs.

I dont think that people assume that they should be exempt because they are a "ruling class", rather that they remember the checks and balances built in to your system.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on September 14, 2021, 11:16:10 PM
I think directly flouting the only real power they have is a lot more of a threat to the Supreme Court than requiring them to abide by work standards that are being applied universally across the entire country.

You mean universally except for the people not required to abide by the universal work standards applied to companies of more then 100 people?

Thats not really universal is it.

Quote
And the the idea that people just assume they should be exempt deeply troubles me, because it shows how deep the belief that a different set of rules should apply to the ruling class runs.

I dont think that people assume that they should be exempt because they are a "ruling class", rather that they remember the checks and balances built in to your system.
Does Congress have more than 100 people?

The 100+ rule is universal, except for....

It's not checks and balances. It's the assumption that the rules shouldn't apply to Congress. This isn't comparable to the protection from prosecution for anything Congressdemons say on the floor, which is at least justifiable.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on September 14, 2021, 11:27:26 PM
Like I said before:

So much for 'my body, my choice'.

Nobody is forcing you to make that choice.

   Aged poorly.
Ouch. I'd forgotten about that exchange.

Well done, sir.

Is anyone forcing him to make that choice?
I would say your lord and savior, Sleepy Joe, is taking a crack at it.

(Ironically, I'm already vaccinated.)

But hey, keep talking. Maybe you'll say something to make up for all the other stupid shit you've said.

So...do you work somewhere covered by the order and was testing not an option for some reason?
If you can't see what a colossal overreach this is, I can't help you.

But I think you do see it, and you like it.

I do think it's both an overreach and mistake. And yet, I m asking about whether it even applied and if testing was an option.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Shasarak on September 14, 2021, 11:42:19 PM
I think directly flouting the only real power they have is a lot more of a threat to the Supreme Court than requiring them to abide by work standards that are being applied universally across the entire country.

You mean universally except for the people not required to abide by the universal work standards applied to companies of more then 100 people?

Thats not really universal is it.

Quote
And the the idea that people just assume they should be exempt deeply troubles me, because it shows how deep the belief that a different set of rules should apply to the ruling class runs.

I dont think that people assume that they should be exempt because they are a "ruling class", rather that they remember the checks and balances built in to your system.
Does Congress have more than 100 people?

The 100+ rule is universal, except for....

It's not checks and balances. It's the assumption that the rules shouldn't apply to Congress. This isn't comparable to the protection from prosecution for anything Congressdemons say on the floor, which is at least justifiable.

I didnt realise that Congress was the only business in the universe of the US of A.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ratman_tf on September 15, 2021, 04:57:55 AM
Back before the ACLU turned against liberty:
https://www.aclu.org/sites/default/files/pdfs/privacy/pemic_report.pdf?fbclid=IwAR1BSdVmEdg7mQSToww5aosRLGrufJKUDpuWP3_Q_gUnjPCE18iBJBE2aBM

Quote from: Pandemic Preparedness (2008)
Conflating Public Health with National Security and Law Enforcement

Rather than focusing on well-established measures for protecting the lives and health of Americans, policymakers have recently embraced an approach that views public health policy through the prism of national security and law enforcement.  This model assumes that we must “trade liberty for security.”  As a result, instead of helping individuals and communities through education and provision of health care, today’s pandemic prevention focuses on taking aggressive, coercive actions against those who are sick.  People, rather than the disease, become the enemy.

Lessons from History

American history contains vivid reminders that grafting the values of law enforcement and national security onto public health is both ineffective and dangerous.  Too often, fears aroused by disease and epidemics have justified abuses of state power. Highly discriminatory and forcible vaccination and quarantine measures adopted in response to outbreaks of the plague and smallpox over the past century have consistently accelerated rather than slowed the spread of disease, while fomenting public distrust and, in some cases, riots.

The lessons from history should be kept in mind whenever we are told by government officials that “tough,” liberty-limiting actions are needed to protect us from dangerous diseases.  Specifically:
• Coercion and brute force are rarely necessary.  In fact they are generally counterproductive—they gratuitously breed public distrust and encourage the people who are most in need of care to evade public health authorities.
• On the other hand, effective, preventive strategies that rely on voluntary participation do work.  Simply put, people do not want to contract smallpox, influenza or other dangerous diseases.  They want positive government help in avoiding and treating disease.  As long as public officials are working to help people rather than to punish them, people are likely to engage willingly in any and all efforts to keep their families and communities healthy.
• Minorities and other socially disadvantaged populations tend to bear the brunt of tough public health measures. 

What's ironic is what they were protesting falls short of what's already happened.

I'm surprised they haven't scrubbed that document yet.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on September 15, 2021, 06:55:53 AM
Just take the needle, let me know how it goes.

No thanks.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: FelixGamingX1 on September 15, 2021, 07:06:47 AM
Just take the needle, let me know how it goes.

No thanks.

They’ll make it impossible not to. (Not like we didn’t see this coming)
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on September 15, 2021, 07:33:58 AM
I think directly flouting the only real power they have is a lot more of a threat to the Supreme Court than requiring them to abide by work standards that are being applied universally across the entire country.

You mean universally except for the people not required to abide by the universal work standards applied to companies of more then 100 people?

Thats not really universal is it.

Quote
And the the idea that people just assume they should be exempt deeply troubles me, because it shows how deep the belief that a different set of rules should apply to the ruling class runs.

I dont think that people assume that they should be exempt because they are a "ruling class", rather that they remember the checks and balances built in to your system.
Does Congress have more than 100 people?

The 100+ rule is universal, except for....

It's not checks and balances. It's the assumption that the rules shouldn't apply to Congress. This isn't comparable to the protection from prosecution for anything Congressdemons say on the floor, which is at least justifiable.

I didnt realise that Congress was the only business in the universe of the US of A.

  It isnt, it just happens to be the most profitable for its members.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on September 15, 2021, 10:11:08 AM
They’ll make it impossible not to. (Not like we didn’t see this coming)

How?

That's not the case in the UK, where all their bullshit mandates to date featured easily-claimed exemptions so they wouldn't be thrown out by the first court challenge.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on September 15, 2021, 10:26:27 AM
Back before the ACLU turned against liberty:
https://www.aclu.org/sites/default/files/pdfs/privacy/pemic_report.pdf?fbclid=IwAR1BSdVmEdg7mQSToww5aosRLGrufJKUDpuWP3_Q_gUnjPCE18iBJBE2aBM

Quote from: Pandemic Preparedness (2008)
Conflating Public Health with National Security and Law Enforcement

Rather than focusing on well-established measures for protecting the lives and health of Americans, policymakers have recently embraced an approach that views public health policy through the prism of national security and law enforcement.  This model assumes that we must “trade liberty for security.”  As a result, instead of helping individuals and communities through education and provision of health care, today’s pandemic prevention focuses on taking aggressive, coercive actions against those who are sick.  People, rather than the disease, become the enemy.

Lessons from History

American history contains vivid reminders that grafting the values of law enforcement and national security onto public health is both ineffective and dangerous.  Too often, fears aroused by disease and epidemics have justified abuses of state power. Highly discriminatory and forcible vaccination and quarantine measures adopted in response to outbreaks of the plague and smallpox over the past century have consistently accelerated rather than slowed the spread of disease, while fomenting public distrust and, in some cases, riots.

The lessons from history should be kept in mind whenever we are told by government officials that “tough,” liberty-limiting actions are needed to protect us from dangerous diseases.  Specifically:
• Coercion and brute force are rarely necessary.  In fact they are generally counterproductive—they gratuitously breed public distrust and encourage the people who are most in need of care to evade public health authorities.
• On the other hand, effective, preventive strategies that rely on voluntary participation do work.  Simply put, people do not want to contract smallpox, influenza or other dangerous diseases.  They want positive government help in avoiding and treating disease.  As long as public officials are working to help people rather than to punish them, people are likely to engage willingly in any and all efforts to keep their families and communities healthy.
• Minorities and other socially disadvantaged populations tend to bear the brunt of tough public health measures. 

What's ironic is what they were protesting falls short of what's already happened.

I'm surprised they haven't scrubbed that document yet.
I find the historical approach of the document very interesting. It supports one of the arguments I've been making -- that public health has failed badly in response to the novel coronavirus pandemic, and the biggest reason is because they destroyed their most essential resource, public trust. They've been lying to us, and while it's supposedly for our own good (like Fauci lying about masks to preserve them for healthcare workers), that just means people have stopped believing anything they say. The ACLU document points out that the mere fact that they're using coercive methods is increasing distrust and encouraging people to evade the restrictions. The core problem isn't politicization, or that people have rejected science, or that we haven't imposed enough dictates. No, the real problem is the mandates. When you try to force people to do something, they resist. That's just natural human behavior. It might have turned out very differently if public health and the politicians backing them decided to trust the public, were scrupulously honest and open about what they knew and didn't know, and completely rejected involuntary coercion and instead tried to sway the public by appealing to their reason and self-interest. It would have increased complaisance instead of compliance, and might have even helped unite the country.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: KingCheops on September 15, 2021, 10:31:39 AM
Imprison those who abuse drugs.
Imprison those who abuse alcohol.
Imprison those who smoke.
Imprison those who eat too much fast food.
Imprison those who have genetic infirmities.
Imprison those who have mental infirmities.
Imprison those who have the wrong opinion.

Welcome to the dystopian future my friends.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on September 15, 2021, 10:36:32 AM
Prison is the Orwellian approach. Cancel culture and social credit scores are more Huxleyian, but in many ways the soft approaches are even more terrible because they provide cover and comfort to the totalitarians and their apologists.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: deadDMwalking on September 15, 2021, 03:08:37 PM
Imprison those who abuse drugs.
Drug Possession has been enough to land you in jail for years in most states for a generation.  Only now are those laws being relaxed.

Imprison those who abuse alcohol.
If you do anything while intoxicated (normal behavior for someone who abuses alcohol) you're likely to end up in jail.  A DUI can put you in jail for 30 days in most states, and up to a year in several. 


Welcome to the dystopian future my friends.

Welcome to the Dystopian past. 
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ratman_tf on September 15, 2021, 03:41:07 PM
Back before the ACLU turned against liberty:
https://www.aclu.org/sites/default/files/pdfs/privacy/pemic_report.pdf?fbclid=IwAR1BSdVmEdg7mQSToww5aosRLGrufJKUDpuWP3_Q_gUnjPCE18iBJBE2aBM

Quote from: Pandemic Preparedness (2008)
Conflating Public Health with National Security and Law Enforcement

Rather than focusing on well-established measures for protecting the lives and health of Americans, policymakers have recently embraced an approach that views public health policy through the prism of national security and law enforcement.  This model assumes that we must “trade liberty for security.”  As a result, instead of helping individuals and communities through education and provision of health care, today’s pandemic prevention focuses on taking aggressive, coercive actions against those who are sick.  People, rather than the disease, become the enemy.

Lessons from History

American history contains vivid reminders that grafting the values of law enforcement and national security onto public health is both ineffective and dangerous.  Too often, fears aroused by disease and epidemics have justified abuses of state power. Highly discriminatory and forcible vaccination and quarantine measures adopted in response to outbreaks of the plague and smallpox over the past century have consistently accelerated rather than slowed the spread of disease, while fomenting public distrust and, in some cases, riots.

The lessons from history should be kept in mind whenever we are told by government officials that “tough,” liberty-limiting actions are needed to protect us from dangerous diseases.  Specifically:
• Coercion and brute force are rarely necessary.  In fact they are generally counterproductive—they gratuitously breed public distrust and encourage the people who are most in need of care to evade public health authorities.
• On the other hand, effective, preventive strategies that rely on voluntary participation do work.  Simply put, people do not want to contract smallpox, influenza or other dangerous diseases.  They want positive government help in avoiding and treating disease.  As long as public officials are working to help people rather than to punish them, people are likely to engage willingly in any and all efforts to keep their families and communities healthy.
• Minorities and other socially disadvantaged populations tend to bear the brunt of tough public health measures. 

What's ironic is what they were protesting falls short of what's already happened.

I'm surprised they haven't scrubbed that document yet.
I find the historical approach of the document very interesting. It supports one of the arguments I've been making -- that public health has failed badly in response to the novel coronavirus pandemic, and the biggest reason is because they destroyed their most essential resource, public trust. They've been lying to us, and while it's supposedly for our own good (like Fauci lying about masks to preserve them for healthcare workers), that just means people have stopped believing anything they say. The ACLU document points out that the mere fact that they're using coercive methods is increasing distrust and encouraging people to evade the restrictions. The core problem isn't politicization, or that people have rejected science, or that we haven't imposed enough dictates. No, the real problem is the mandates. When you try to force people to do something, they resist. That's just natural human behavior. It might have turned out very differently if public health and the politicians backing them decided to trust the public, were scrupulously honest and open about what they knew and didn't know, and completely rejected involuntary coercion and instead tried to sway the public by appealing to their reason and self-interest. It would have increased complaisance instead of compliance, and might have even helped unite the country.

I'm totally with you, there.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on September 15, 2021, 06:08:58 PM
Imprison those who abuse drugs.
Imprison those who abuse alcohol.

LOL. No, sorry, you lose. These first two are the OPPOSITE of what the SJW left is doing. They're constantly releasing drug and alcohol abusers back to the public, reducing penalties, reducing charges, and doing everything they can to NOT imprison people. You cannot pretend they're trying to imprison druggies, come on man, you know that's not the case.

Same for much of the rest of your list. Mental Infirmities? It's the left preventing that from happening. 
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on September 15, 2021, 06:17:00 PM
Imprison those who abuse drugs.
Imprison those who abuse alcohol.

LOL. No, sorry, you lose. These first two are the OPPOSITE of what the SJW left is doing. They're constantly releasing drug and alcohol abusers back to the public, reducing penalties, reducing charges, and doing everything they can to NOT imprison people. You cannot pretend they're trying to imprison druggies, come on man, you know that's not the case.

Same for much of the rest of your list. Mental Infirmities? It's the left preventing that from happening.

  I didnt get the vibe he was talking about what the SJW left wants.  I got the vibe he was talking about what our new overlords want once we all agree to doing all the things that "are for our best interests" as in going along with totalitarian measures on a *few* things almost always ends up going with totalitarian measures on *all* things.  At that point, you can call your overlords, right, left or center, but they will for certain be your overlords.   

   Now if he did mean SJW lefties I agree with you.  But he did not say that, and seemed to imply massive nanny state. 
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on September 15, 2021, 07:03:13 PM
Imprison those who abuse drugs.
Imprison those who abuse alcohol.

LOL. No, sorry, you lose. These first two are the OPPOSITE of what the SJW left is doing. They're constantly releasing drug and alcohol abusers back to the public, reducing penalties, reducing charges, and doing everything they can to NOT imprison people. You cannot pretend they're trying to imprison druggies, come on man, you know that's not the case.

Same for much of the rest of your list. Mental Infirmities? It's the left preventing that from happening.



  I didnt get the vibe he was talking about what the SJW left wants.  I got the vibe he was talking about what our new overlords want once we all agree to doing all the things that "are for our best interests" as in going along with totalitarian measures on a *few* things almost always ends up going with totalitarian measures on *all* things.  At that point, you can call your overlords, right, left or center, but they will for certain be your overlords.   

   Now if he did mean SJW lefties I agree with you.  But he did not say that, and seemed to imply massive nanny state.

OK then who is "they" is this?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on September 15, 2021, 08:07:11 PM
Imprison those who abuse drugs.
Imprison those who abuse alcohol.

LOL. No, sorry, you lose. These first two are the OPPOSITE of what the SJW left is doing. They're constantly releasing drug and alcohol abusers back to the public, reducing penalties, reducing charges, and doing everything they can to NOT imprison people. You cannot pretend they're trying to imprison druggies, come on man, you know that's not the case.

Same for much of the rest of your list. Mental Infirmities? It's the left preventing that from happening.



  I didnt get the vibe he was talking about what the SJW left wants.  I got the vibe he was talking about what our new overlords want once we all agree to doing all the things that "are for our best interests" as in going along with totalitarian measures on a *few* things almost always ends up going with totalitarian measures on *all* things.  At that point, you can call your overlords, right, left or center, but they will for certain be your overlords.   

   Now if he did mean SJW lefties I agree with you.  But he did not say that, and seemed to imply massive nanny state.

OK then who is "they" is this?

  I suspect anyone who is of the political class.  But I do not know, whoever ends up as overlord once a state goes totalitarian.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: KingCheops on September 16, 2021, 10:27:56 AM
Imprison those who abuse drugs.
Imprison those who abuse alcohol.

LOL. No, sorry, you lose. These first two are the OPPOSITE of what the SJW left is doing. They're constantly releasing drug and alcohol abusers back to the public, reducing penalties, reducing charges, and doing everything they can to NOT imprison people. You cannot pretend they're trying to imprison druggies, come on man, you know that's not the case.

Same for much of the rest of your list. Mental Infirmities? It's the left preventing that from happening.

  I didnt get the vibe he was talking about what the SJW left wants.  I got the vibe he was talking about what our new overlords want once we all agree to doing all the things that "are for our best interests" as in going along with totalitarian measures on a *few* things almost always ends up going with totalitarian measures on *all* things.  At that point, you can call your overlords, right, left or center, but they will for certain be your overlords.   

   Now if he did mean SJW lefties I agree with you.  But he did not say that, and seemed to imply massive nanny state.

I mean SJW lefties are the useful idiots of the Corporate Fascists trying to take over the world.  So yes?

But yeah I'm more saying this is the path we're going down with our overlords and people are just going along like sheep.  I feel like that one grumpy guy not saluting in that Nazi rally photo.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: deadDMwalking on September 24, 2021, 12:31:08 PM
We are your overlords.  Queue rock video. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRjH_gJbUqQ)
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: FelixGamingX1 on September 24, 2021, 08:48:15 PM
I mean, the level of retardness is simply out of control. They’re like empty shells with no mind of their own. It’s cringe, weird, scary, not normal! I didn’t know a human being could fall so low. It’s like they gotta be pretending, right? Nahhh!
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: DM_Curt on September 25, 2021, 07:28:33 AM
NYC is talking about requiring Vaccine Passports in order to be allowed service at various places. Get the jab or be Unperson.

Recently BLM backed a group of black female Texans who assaulted a NY waitress over a refusal of service over refusing to show vaccine proof.
https://nypost.com/2021/09/17/nyc-hostess-at-carmines-attacked-by-texas-tourists-over-covid-vax-question/

Given that a majority of African-American New Yorkers (62% by this article) are unvaccinated, a majority of them would be unpersoned, and thus BLM is calling the vaccine passports racist.: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/blm-leaders-condemn-nyc-vaccine-passport-as-racist/ar-AAOKrFR

Expect pushback if implemented.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: FelixGamingX1 on September 25, 2021, 08:01:05 AM

Given that a majority of African-American New Yorkers (62% by this article) are unvaccinated, a majority of them would be unpersoned, and thus BLM is calling the vaccine passports racist.


Not racist, just dumb. Businesses will continue to go bankrupt. Sucks to be the guy/garl refusing entry though, doubt their paycheck is worth the headache.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Zelen on September 25, 2021, 09:16:06 AM
NYC is talking about requiring Vaccine Passports in order to be allowed service at various places. Get the jab or be Unperson.

Recently BLM backed a group of black female Texans who assaulted a NY waitress over a refusal of service over refusing to show vaccine proof.
https://nypost.com/2021/09/17/nyc-hostess-at-carmines-attacked-by-texas-tourists-over-covid-vax-question/

Given that a majority of African-American New Yorkers (62% by this article) are unvaccinated, a majority of them would be unpersoned, and thus BLM is calling the vaccine passports racist.: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/blm-leaders-condemn-nyc-vaccine-passport-as-racist/ar-AAOKrFR

Expect pushback if implemented.

You realize this is already implemented right?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: DM_Curt on September 25, 2021, 09:46:22 AM
NYC is talking about requiring Vaccine Passports in order to be allowed service at various places. Get the jab or be Unperson.

Recently BLM backed a group of black female Texans who assaulted a NY waitress over a refusal of service over refusing to show vaccine proof.
https://nypost.com/2021/09/17/nyc-hostess-at-carmines-attacked-by-texas-tourists-over-covid-vax-question/

Given that a majority of African-American New Yorkers (62% by this article) are unvaccinated, a majority of them would be unpersoned, and thus BLM is calling the vaccine passports racist.: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/blm-leaders-condemn-nyc-vaccine-passport-as-racist/ar-AAOKrFR

Expect pushback if implemented.

You realize this is already implemented right?
I guess I do now. I don't usually pay much attention to East Coast city/state stuff.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Shasarak on September 25, 2021, 04:31:29 PM
It’s exactly what Tubesnake was complaining about, racist policies targeting minorities.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: FelixGamingX1 on September 25, 2021, 05:23:59 PM
It’s exactly what Tubesnake was complaining about, racist policies targeting minorities.

How does a vax mandate target minorities?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on September 25, 2021, 05:29:33 PM
It’s exactly what Tubesnake was complaining about, racist policies targeting minorities.

How does a vax mandate target minorities?
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/12/nyregion/covid-vaccine-black-young-new-yorkers.html
Quote from: All the News that Shit Will Print
City data shows that only 28 percent of Black New Yorkers ages 18 to 44 years are fully vaccinated, compared with 48 percent of Latino residents and 52 percent of white residents in that age group.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Shasarak on September 25, 2021, 05:40:50 PM
It’s exactly what Tubesnake was complaining about, racist policies targeting minorities.

How does a vax mandate target minorities?

Because it is the minorities that are not vaccinated.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: FelixGamingX1 on September 25, 2021, 05:44:32 PM
It’s exactly what Tubesnake was complaining about, racist policies targeting minorities.

How does a vax mandate target minorities?

Because it is the minorities that are not vaccinated.

There’s a problem or a if with everything these days. NY isn’t the only place to live, you know. It’s smelly, dirty and humid.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on September 25, 2021, 07:18:18 PM
There’s a problem or a if with everything these days. NY isn’t the only place to live, you know. It’s smelly, dirty and humid.

I struggle to tell if you're trolling, or you're really this stupid. And if the entire country passed mandates like that, then anyone unvaccinated should just leave?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: FelixGamingX1 on September 25, 2021, 07:51:15 PM
There’s a problem or a if with everything these days. NY isn’t the only place to live, you know. It’s smelly, dirty and humid.

I struggle to tell if you're trolling, or you're really this stupid. And if the entire country passed mandates like that, then anyone unvaccinated should just leave?

It will never be an “entire country” this is a blue state problem. I’m still to be asked for papers. Because asking for papers is an automatic I’ll take my business elsewhere, for me.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on September 25, 2021, 07:51:45 PM
There’s a problem or a if with everything these days. NY isn’t the only place to live, you know. It’s smelly, dirty and humid.

I struggle to tell if you're trolling, or you're really this stupid. And if the entire country passed mandates like that, then anyone unvaccinated should just leave?
Yes.

That's why we need smaller countries. Much smaller.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Shasarak on September 25, 2021, 11:17:19 PM
It’s exactly what Tubesnake was complaining about, racist policies targeting minorities.

How does a vax mandate target minorities?

Because it is the minorities that are not vaccinated.

There’s a problem or a if with everything these days. NY isn’t the only place to live, you know. It’s smelly, dirty and humid.

Did you just single handedly solve racism?

Just leave, brilliant!
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Horace on September 25, 2021, 11:49:51 PM
There’s a problem or a if with everything these days. NY isn’t the only place to live, you know. It’s smelly, dirty and humid.

I struggle to tell if you're trolling, or you're really this stupid. And if the entire country passed mandates like that, then anyone unvaccinated should just leave?
Yes.

That's why we need smaller countries. Much smaller.
If Progressive judges hadn't effectively nullified the Tenth Amendment -- "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people." -- there would be less need for smaller countries. In essence, the States are supposed to be akin to countries in their level of self-governance, each an individual experiment in democracy. This is how the founders imagined it, with a limited federal government overseeing everything, all its powers (and its ONLY powers) enumerated in the Constitution.

Over time, however, the States ceded more and more power to the federal government, with an assist from the courts. Instead of fifty independent experiments in democracy, we now have fifty vassal states chained and leashed to a monstrous overseer in the form of a federal government run amok. This has, naturally, bled into American culture. We have people in California gnashing their teeth over politics in North Carolina, a state over 2,000 miles away that might as well be a foreign country for all the influence it has over their lives -- or should and would have over their lives, that is, if Congress actually respected the Constitution and didn't write legislation in flagrant violation of the Tenth Amendment.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on September 26, 2021, 06:50:55 AM
If Progressive judges hadn't effectively nullified the Tenth Amendment -- "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people." -- there would be less need for smaller countries. In essence, the States are supposed to be akin to countries in their level of self-governance, each an individual experiment in democracy. This is how the founders imagined it, with a limited federal government overseeing everything, all its powers (and its ONLY powers) enumerated in the Constitution.

Over time, however, the States ceded more and more power to the federal government, with an assist from the courts. Instead of fifty independent experiments in democracy, we now have fifty vassal states chained and leashed to a monstrous overseer in the form of a federal government run amok. This has, naturally, bled into American culture. We have people in California gnashing their teeth over politics in North Carolina, a state over 2,000 miles away that might as well be a foreign country for all the influence it has over their lives -- or should and would have over their lives, that is, if Congress actually respected the Constitution and didn't write legislation in flagrant violation of the Tenth Amendment.

Even then, you have nothing like the level of centralisation we have in the UK. There is only Westminster and a few city mayors given a few token powers. All that local authorities do is choose how to dole out the grants given to them by central government, they have no lawmaking powers of their own.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on September 26, 2021, 07:09:30 AM
If Progressive judges hadn't effectively nullified the Tenth Amendment -- "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people." -- there would be less need for smaller countries. In essence, the States are supposed to be akin to countries in their level of self-governance, each an individual experiment in democracy. This is how the founders imagined it, with a limited federal government overseeing everything, all its powers (and its ONLY powers) enumerated in the Constitution.

Over time, however, the States ceded more and more power to the federal government, with an assist from the courts. Instead of fifty independent experiments in democracy, we now have fifty vassal states chained and leashed to a monstrous overseer in the form of a federal government run amok. This has, naturally, bled into American culture. We have people in California gnashing their teeth over politics in North Carolina, a state over 2,000 miles away that might as well be a foreign country for all the influence it has over their lives -- or should and would have over their lives, that is, if Congress actually respected the Constitution and didn't write legislation in flagrant violation of the Tenth Amendment.

Even then, you have nothing like the level of centralisation we have in the UK. There is only Westminster and a few city mayors given a few token powers. All that local authorities do is choose how to dole out the grants given to them by central government, they have no lawmaking powers of their own.
Towards the start of the pandemic, I was listening to a British YouTuber, who was very critical of the US federal government for failing to impose mandates, without understanding they didn't have that authority. He just assumed assumed the federal government could step in and do whatever they want, and had a hard time grasping the concept of states rights or federalization. He ended up apologizing to his American viewers, and then made the same mistake in the next video. He never really grokked the concept.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on September 26, 2021, 08:58:33 AM
Towards the start of the pandemic, I was listening to a British YouTuber, who was very critical of the US federal government for failing to impose mandates, without understanding they didn't have that authority. He just assumed assumed the federal government could step in and do whatever they want, and had a hard time grasping the concept of states rights or federalization. He ended up apologizing to his American viewers, and then made the same mistake in the next video. He never really grokked the concept.

Modern Britain is one of the most centralised "democracies" (post-covid I use that word advisedly) in the world. I don't think my fellow Brits necessarily appreciate that. Though it's not unusual compared to some European countries (though others are just as federalised as the US).
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: FelixGamingX1 on September 26, 2021, 09:42:29 AM
Modern Britain is one of the most centralised "democracies" (post-covid I use that word advisedly) in the world.

Such a ‘democracy’ it sought to distance itself from the rest of its allies. You know, just saying.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ghostmaker on September 26, 2021, 09:44:15 AM
Modern Britain is one of the most centralised "democracies" (post-covid I use that word advisedly) in the world.

Such a ‘democracy’ it sought to distance itself from the rest of its allies. You know, just saying.
You spelled 'retards in Brussels who couldn't organize a piss-up in a brewery' as 'allies'.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on September 26, 2021, 09:59:07 AM
Such a ‘democracy’ it sought to distance itself from the rest of its allies. You know, just saying.

Why am I not surprised a retard like you is in favour of the utterly corrupt EU?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: FelixGamingX1 on September 26, 2021, 10:18:30 AM
Such a ‘democracy’ it sought to distance itself from the rest of its allies. You know, just saying.

Why am I not surprised a retard like you is in favour of the utterly corrupt EU?

You know, maybe you’re right. I can’t even spell bretix correct.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on October 06, 2021, 03:48:22 PM
CBS: Texas man sentenced to 15 months in prison for spreading COVID-19 hoax on Facebook (https://www.cbsnews.com/news/covid-19-hoax-facebook-texas-christopher-charles-erez-15-months-prison/)

I agree with the decision. Now, let's see how many people actually read the article to see what it's about before they react to it.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Garry G on October 06, 2021, 04:07:45 PM
If Progressive judges hadn't effectively nullified the Tenth Amendment -- "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people." -- there would be less need for smaller countries. In essence, the States are supposed to be akin to countries in their level of self-governance, each an individual experiment in democracy. This is how the founders imagined it, with a limited federal government overseeing everything, all its powers (and its ONLY powers) enumerated in the Constitution.

Over time, however, the States ceded more and more power to the federal government, with an assist from the courts. Instead of fifty independent experiments in democracy, we now have fifty vassal states chained and leashed to a monstrous overseer in the form of a federal government run amok. This has, naturally, bled into American culture. We have people in California gnashing their teeth over politics in North Carolina, a state over 2,000 miles away that might as well be a foreign country for all the influence it has over their lives -- or should and would have over their lives, that is, if Congress actually respected the Constitution and didn't write legislation in flagrant violation of the Tenth Amendment.

Even then, you have nothing like the level of centralisation we have in the UK. There is only Westminster and a few city mayors given a few token powers. All that local authorities do is choose how to dole out the grants given to them by central government, they have no lawmaking powers of their own.

There's also the Welsh Assembly, Scottish Parliament and Stormont you weird little englander.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on October 06, 2021, 06:33:51 PM
CBS: Texas man sentenced to 15 months in prison for spreading COVID-19 hoax on Facebook (https://www.cbsnews.com/news/covid-19-hoax-facebook-texas-christopher-charles-erez-15-months-prison/)

I agree with the decision. Now, let's see how many people actually read the article to see what it's about before they react to it.
He didn't even lick anything. He made a Facebook post where he (falsely) claimed he hired someone with covid-19 to go into a store and lick some stuff.

And he's going to jail for 15 yearsmonths. That's obscene, and I don't see how anyone without an entire row of jackboots in their closet can support it. It's basically a bad-taste prank. It wasn't even a physical prank, it was just words.

If the problem is he scared people, then we should go after public health and the news organizations who have been driving the weak-minded into irrational fear for the past 18 months. Not him.

Fucking hell. Totalitarianism is here.

I'd seriously support disbanding the FBI at this point.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: DM_Curt on October 06, 2021, 07:13:47 PM
Making a shitty Facebook post: Jail-worthy. Free Speech be Damned.
Bitching at your School Board for being shitty: Domestic Terrorism!
Minor trespassing, some rioting: Domestic Terrorism, Jailable for months in solitary without charges.
Burning down city blocks, attempting to block people inside buildings with burning dumpsters: Mostly peaceful, not worth investigating.

Clown World! 🤡
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on October 06, 2021, 07:18:44 PM
Making a shitty Facebook post: Jail-worthy. Free Speech be Damned.
Bitching at your School Board for being shitty: Domestic Terrorism!
Minor trespassing, some rioting: Domestic Terrorism, Jailable for months in solitary without charges.
Burning down city blocks, attempting to block people inside buildings with burning dumpsters: Mostly peaceful, not worth investigating.

Clown World! 🤡
It's worse than that. From the article: "The investigation was conducted by FBI's Joint Terrorism Task Force, along with Weapons of Mass Destruction personnel."

A shitty prank is now tantamount to being a nuclear terrorist. The government is treating people who exercise free speech like Bond villains.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Shasarak on October 06, 2021, 07:22:07 PM
CBS: Texas man sentenced to 15 months in prison for spreading COVID-19 hoax on Facebook (https://www.cbsnews.com/news/covid-19-hoax-facebook-texas-christopher-charles-erez-15-months-prison/)

I agree with the decision. Now, let's see how many people actually read the article to see what it's about before they react to it.
He didn't even lick anything. He made a Facebook post where he (falsely) claimed he hired someone with covid-19 to go into a store and lick some stuff.

And he's going to jail for 15 years. That's obscene, and I don't see how anyone without an entire row of jackboots in their closet can support it. It's basically a bad-taste prank. It wasn't even a physical prank, it was just words.

If the problem is he scared people, then we should go after public health and the news organizations who have been driving the weak-minded into irrational fear for the past 18 months. Not him.

Fucking hell. Totalitarianism is here.

I'd seriously support disbanding the FBI at this point.

Its 15 months not years, but gawd what the actual fuck.

What is wrong with your criminal system.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: DM_Curt on October 06, 2021, 07:24:53 PM
Making a shitty Facebook post: Jail-worthy. Free Speech be Damned.
Bitching at your School Board for being shitty: Domestic Terrorism!
Minor trespassing, some rioting: Domestic Terrorism, Jailable for months in solitary without charges.
Burning down city blocks, attempting to block people inside buildings with burning dumpsters: Mostly peaceful, not worth investigating.

Clown World! 🤡
It's worse than that. From the article: "The investigation was conducted by FBI's Joint Terrorism Task Force, along with Weapons of Mass Destruction personnel."

A shitty prank is now tantamount to being a nuclear terrorist. The government is treating people who exercise free speech like Bond villains.
If this was a movie, the FBI would have better uniforms. Probably black, with shiny bits.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on October 06, 2021, 07:26:37 PM
I blame Bush. The Patriot Act was the tipping point.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: DM_Curt on October 06, 2021, 07:59:10 PM
I blame Bush. The Patriot Act was the tipping point.
It was already close to that point.
Sammy Weaver was 14. Many of the Waco kids were younger.
Many of the men involved in those fiascos had careers up to and including the previous administration and this one. Bill Barr was Trump-Era. David Chipman almost made ATF head this year.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on October 06, 2021, 09:06:45 PM
Making a shitty Facebook post: Jail-worthy. Free Speech be Damned.

How does this meaningfully differ from falsely yelling fire in a crowded theater to you? The jury found his posts were "knowingly designed to spread fear and panic" and that it was intended as a direct threat to people's safety. I mean, you guys not believing in the threat of Covid is meaningless - he knew his audience did believe in that threat. It's like if you thought a gun was unloaded and didn't fear that gun being pointed at you but other people reasonably thought the gun was loaded and would fear it being pointed at them. It wasn't some prank or a joke - he really did intend to cause a panic over this. That's what the jury found.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on October 06, 2021, 10:14:51 PM
Making a shitty Facebook post: Jail-worthy. Free Speech be Damned.

How does this meaningfully differ from falsely yelling fire in a crowded theater to you? The jury found his posts were "knowingly designed to spread fear and panic" and that it was intended as a direct threat to people's safety. I mean, you guys not believing in the threat of Covid is meaningless - he knew his audience did believe in that threat. It's like if you thought a gun was unloaded and didn't fear that gun being pointed at you but other people reasonably thought the gun was loaded and would fear it being pointed at them. It wasn't some prank or a joke - he really did intend to cause a panic over this. That's what the jury found.
Yelling fire in a crowded theater is a paraphrase of Oliver Wendell Holmes. Specifically, he used it in support of the conviction of a man for peacefully speaking out against the draft. It's a notorious violation of civil rights. And not only was the phrase just a rhetorical flourish and never a legally binding standard of any kind, but key elements of the decision were overturned in 1969, so the case isn't even a precedent.

So you're attempting to defend repression with a past example of repression that holds no legal force and is widely considered to be one of the dark moments of American history.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Zelen on October 06, 2021, 11:47:26 PM
Where are the posts in question? Reality is, context and tone are important and difficult to judge. I really don't trust the FBI to be either impartial or honest. For the average (low IQ, uninformed) citizen, if you're dragged in to sit on a jury by the FBI you are going to do whatever they want you to because they are the FBI and you just want to get back to your life.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: DM_Curt on October 07, 2021, 09:48:29 AM
Making a shitty Facebook post: Jail-worthy. Free Speech be Damned.

How does this meaningfully differ from falsely yelling fire in a crowded theater to you? The jury found his posts were "knowingly designed to spread fear and panic" and that it was intended as a direct threat to people's safety. I mean, you guys not believing in the threat of Covid is meaningless - he knew his audience did believe in that threat. It's like if you thought a gun was unloaded and didn't fear that gun being pointed at you but other people reasonably thought the gun was loaded and would fear it being pointed at them. It wasn't some prank or a joke - he really did intend to cause a panic over this. That's what the jury found.
  No reasonable person would think they're gonna die because there's a conspiracy to lick their produce that they can't possibly rinse (which they should anyway, because people'shands are dirty), or the outside of sealed containers.  Again, if it's a real pandemic,  you should be washing things anyway, like your hands and whatever other people touch.
A shortage of reasonable people is not that poster's fault, but the fault of everyone who is propagandizing and exaggerating the Covid risk. Jail the newscasters too, then.

Fire actually does kill people who aren't already unhealthy.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on October 07, 2021, 10:10:25 AM
  Though i do think there should be a criminal penalty for saying stupid shit about spreading diseases licking things....when I lay it down beside DA's who decide crippling and fatal gun fights are simply mutual combat, I wonder if everyone is living inside the same sets of laws.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ghostmaker on October 07, 2021, 10:37:45 AM
  Though i do think there should be a criminal penalty for saying stupid shit about spreading diseases licking things....when I lay it down beside DA's who decide crippling and fatal gun fights are simply mutual combat, I wonder if everyone is living inside the same sets of laws.
They're not.

On the upshot, I guess this means the code duello applies in Chicago now.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: FelixGamingX1 on October 07, 2021, 12:56:08 PM
  Though i do think there should be a criminal penalty for saying stupid shit about spreading diseases licking things....when I lay it down beside DA's who decide crippling and fatal gun fights are simply mutual combat, I wonder if everyone is living inside the same sets of laws.
You mean, living inside the same reality. Man, I don’t see how society will recover from this insane stupidity happening nowadays.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: DM_Curt on October 07, 2021, 01:47:13 PM
We are definitely NOT all living in the same set of laws or realities.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: DocJones on October 07, 2021, 07:20:44 PM
Interesting new study.
Increases in COVID-19 are unrelated to levels of vaccination across 68 countries and 2947 counties in the United States (https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10654-021-00808-7)
Also how do you square the notion that we had ~375K deaths in all of 2020 before vaccinations were available but have ~325K so far in 2021 after the vaccinations were available.   
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Shasarak on October 07, 2021, 07:57:28 PM
  Though i do think there should be a criminal penalty for saying stupid shit about spreading diseases licking things....when I lay it down beside DA's who decide crippling and fatal gun fights are simply mutual combat, I wonder if everyone is living inside the same sets of laws.

What about if you are the Director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases and the Chief Medical Advisor to the President advising people not to wear masks during a viral pandemic?

Should there be a criminal penalty for that?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Zelen on October 07, 2021, 08:16:39 PM
  Though i do think there should be a criminal penalty for saying stupid shit about spreading diseases licking things....when I lay it down beside DA's who decide crippling and fatal gun fights are simply mutual combat, I wonder if everyone is living inside the same sets of laws.

What about if you are the Director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases and the Chief Medical Advisor to the President advising people not to wear masks during a viral pandemic?

Should there be a criminal penalty for that?

No, because that's actually the position supported by the lion's share of high-quality evidence, and all of the real world evidence.

However, there should be a criminal penalty for circumventing a ban on gain-of-lethality research and lying about it & covering it up.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on October 07, 2021, 09:02:03 PM
Making a shitty Facebook post: Jail-worthy. Free Speech be Damned.

How does this meaningfully differ from falsely yelling fire in a crowded theater to you? The jury found his posts were "knowingly designed to spread fear and panic" and that it was intended as a direct threat to people's safety. I mean, you guys not believing in the threat of Covid is meaningless - he knew his audience did believe in that threat. It's like if you thought a gun was unloaded and didn't fear that gun being pointed at you but other people reasonably thought the gun was loaded and would fear it being pointed at them. It wasn't some prank or a joke - he really did intend to cause a panic over this. That's what the jury found.
Yelling fire in a crowded theater is a paraphrase of Oliver Wendell Holmes. Specifically, he used it in support of the conviction of a man for peacefully speaking out against the draft. It's a notorious violation of civil rights. And not only was the phrase just a rhetorical flourish and never a legally binding standard of any kind, but key elements of the decision were overturned in 1969, so the case isn't even a precedent.

So you're attempting to defend repression with a past example of repression that holds no legal force and is widely considered to be one of the dark moments of American history.

Pat it's a legit example of what would be real criminal speech. It was used in law school by professors as a clear easy example of a line you can draw with speech. But you as usual instinctively gadfly it while continuing to not even talk about the issue inherent in the topic.

DO YOU THINK IT WOULD BE OK TO FALSELY YELL FIRE IN A CROWDED THEATER KNOWING IT WOULD CAUSE AN ACTUAL PANIC? It's a simply yes or know question which has fuck all to do with anything you just said.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on October 07, 2021, 09:04:37 PM
Where are the posts in question? Reality is, context and tone are important and difficult to judge. I really don't trust the FBI to be either impartial or honest. For the average (low IQ, uninformed) citizen, if you're dragged in to sit on a jury by the FBI you are going to do whatever they want you to because they are the FBI and you just want to get back to your life.

It's not the FBI's decision it was a jury's decision. He's convicted by a jury over these incidents. Plenty of cases brought by the FBI are not convictions. This is the fucking system after all.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on October 07, 2021, 09:08:12 PM
Making a shitty Facebook post: Jail-worthy. Free Speech be Damned.

How does this meaningfully differ from falsely yelling fire in a crowded theater to you? The jury found his posts were "knowingly designed to spread fear and panic" and that it was intended as a direct threat to people's safety. I mean, you guys not believing in the threat of Covid is meaningless - he knew his audience did believe in that threat. It's like if you thought a gun was unloaded and didn't fear that gun being pointed at you but other people reasonably thought the gun was loaded and would fear it being pointed at them. It wasn't some prank or a joke - he really did intend to cause a panic over this. That's what the jury found.
  No reasonable person would think they're gonna die because there's a conspiracy to lick their produce that they can't possibly rinse (which they should anyway, because people'shands are dirty), or the outside of sealed containers.  Again, if it's a real pandemic,  you should be washing things anyway, like your hands and whatever other people touch.
A shortage of reasonable people is not that poster's fault, but the fault of everyone who is propagandizing and exaggerating the Covid risk. Jail the newscasters too, then.

Fire actually does kill people who aren't already unhealthy.

The jury did in fact find that a reasonable person could believe they would die from that. And it's because he said he had ALREADY had it done, that food people had already consumed had been infected intentionally. As for the "already unhealthy" WTF man you don't get to pull the "but covid only kills unhealthy or old people" bullshit with THIS kind of case because guess what - unhealthy or old people still have a right to not have their food intentionally infected with a disease that would kill them. They still need to eat and would have had no reason to think their food sources were unsafe.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on October 07, 2021, 09:10:31 PM
Interesting new study.
Increases in COVID-19 are unrelated to levels of vaccination across 68 countries and 2947 counties in the United States (https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10654-021-00808-7)
Also how do you square the notion that we had ~375K deaths in all of 2020 before vaccinations were available but have ~325K so far in 2021 after the vaccinations were available.

Because Delta variant is far more infectious, and it spread faster. Because that's how pandemics happen - they get worse over time. I really don't know how people don't get that it would have been much worse but-for the vaccine.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on October 07, 2021, 10:15:35 PM
Making a shitty Facebook post: Jail-worthy. Free Speech be Damned.

How does this meaningfully differ from falsely yelling fire in a crowded theater to you? The jury found his posts were "knowingly designed to spread fear and panic" and that it was intended as a direct threat to people's safety. I mean, you guys not believing in the threat of Covid is meaningless - he knew his audience did believe in that threat. It's like if you thought a gun was unloaded and didn't fear that gun being pointed at you but other people reasonably thought the gun was loaded and would fear it being pointed at them. It wasn't some prank or a joke - he really did intend to cause a panic over this. That's what the jury found.
Yelling fire in a crowded theater is a paraphrase of Oliver Wendell Holmes. Specifically, he used it in support of the conviction of a man for peacefully speaking out against the draft. It's a notorious violation of civil rights. And not only was the phrase just a rhetorical flourish and never a legally binding standard of any kind, but key elements of the decision were overturned in 1969, so the case isn't even a precedent.

So you're attempting to defend repression with a past example of repression that holds no legal force and is widely considered to be one of the dark moments of American history.

Pat it's a legit example of what would be real criminal speech. It was used in law school by professors as a clear easy example of a line you can draw with speech. But you as usual instinctively gadfly it while continuing to not even talk about the issue inherent in the topic.

DO YOU THINK IT WOULD BE OK TO FALSELY YELL FIRE IN A CROWDED THEATER KNOWING IT WOULD CAUSE AN ACTUAL PANIC? It's a simply yes or know question which has fuck all to do with anything you just said.
Do you support jailing people for speaking up against the draft? It's a simple yes or no question.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on October 07, 2021, 10:19:38 PM
Because Delta variant is far more infectious, and it spread faster. Because that's how pandemics happen - they get worse over time. I really don't know how people don't get that it would have been much worse but-for the vaccine.
You're 100% right, the Spanish flu pandemic has killed twice as many people each since 1918. In 1918, it killed 50 million. In 1919, it killed 100. And in 2020 it killed 253,530,120,045,646,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 people.

Oops wait that didn't happen.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on October 08, 2021, 01:21:15 AM
Making a shitty Facebook post: Jail-worthy. Free Speech be Damned.

How does this meaningfully differ from falsely yelling fire in a crowded theater to you? The jury found his posts were "knowingly designed to spread fear and panic" and that it was intended as a direct threat to people's safety. I mean, you guys not believing in the threat of Covid is meaningless - he knew his audience did believe in that threat. It's like if you thought a gun was unloaded and didn't fear that gun being pointed at you but other people reasonably thought the gun was loaded and would fear it being pointed at them. It wasn't some prank or a joke - he really did intend to cause a panic over this. That's what the jury found.
Yelling fire in a crowded theater is a paraphrase of Oliver Wendell Holmes. Specifically, he used it in support of the conviction of a man for peacefully speaking out against the draft. It's a notorious violation of civil rights. And not only was the phrase just a rhetorical flourish and never a legally binding standard of any kind, but key elements of the decision were overturned in 1969, so the case isn't even a precedent.

So you're attempting to defend repression with a past example of repression that holds no legal force and is widely considered to be one of the dark moments of American history.

Pat it's a legit example of what would be real criminal speech. It was used in law school by professors as a clear easy example of a line you can draw with speech. But you as usual instinctively gadfly it while continuing to not even talk about the issue inherent in the topic.

DO YOU THINK IT WOULD BE OK TO FALSELY YELL FIRE IN A CROWDED THEATER KNOWING IT WOULD CAUSE AN ACTUAL PANIC? It's a simply yes or know question which has fuck all to do with anything you just said.
Do you support jailing people for speaking up against the draft? It's a simple yes or no question.

No I do not. Now, do you think it would be OK to falsely yell fire in a crowded theater knowing it would cause an actual panic?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on October 08, 2021, 01:24:34 AM
Because Delta variant is far more infectious, and it spread faster. Because that's how pandemics happen - they get worse over time. I really don't know how people don't get that it would have been much worse but-for the vaccine.
You're 100% right, the Spanish flu pandemic has killed twice as many people each since 1918. In 1918, it killed 50 million. In 1919, it killed 100. And in 2020 it killed 253,530,120,045,646,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 people.

Oops wait that didn't happen.

It gets worse before it gets better. The Spanish Flu killed more people in the second year than it did in the first year. All pandemics eventually die down, but that doesn't mean they don't get worse over time in the first years.

But you knew this. You've gone into full retard mode lately in replies to me. I could say you shouldn't get the vaccine and you'd probably start advocating for the vaccine on instinct at this point.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on October 08, 2021, 05:01:17 AM
Because Delta variant is far more infectious, and it spread faster. Because that's how pandemics happen - they get worse over time. I really don't know how people don't get that it would have been much worse but-for the vaccine.

Wrong, it's because the "vaccines" cause the variants and are responsible for the higher levels of infection and death.

Were it not for the jabs and lockdowns, it would have completely burned itself out by last summer.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on October 08, 2021, 06:33:26 AM
Making a shitty Facebook post: Jail-worthy. Free Speech be Damned.

How does this meaningfully differ from falsely yelling fire in a crowded theater to you? The jury found his posts were "knowingly designed to spread fear and panic" and that it was intended as a direct threat to people's safety. I mean, you guys not believing in the threat of Covid is meaningless - he knew his audience did believe in that threat. It's like if you thought a gun was unloaded and didn't fear that gun being pointed at you but other people reasonably thought the gun was loaded and would fear it being pointed at them. It wasn't some prank or a joke - he really did intend to cause a panic over this. That's what the jury found.
Yelling fire in a crowded theater is a paraphrase of Oliver Wendell Holmes. Specifically, he used it in support of the conviction of a man for peacefully speaking out against the draft. It's a notorious violation of civil rights. And not only was the phrase just a rhetorical flourish and never a legally binding standard of any kind, but key elements of the decision were overturned in 1969, so the case isn't even a precedent.

So you're attempting to defend repression with a past example of repression that holds no legal force and is widely considered to be one of the dark moments of American history.

Pat it's a legit example of what would be real criminal speech. It was used in law school by professors as a clear easy example of a line you can draw with speech. But you as usual instinctively gadfly it while continuing to not even talk about the issue inherent in the topic.

DO YOU THINK IT WOULD BE OK TO FALSELY YELL FIRE IN A CROWDED THEATER KNOWING IT WOULD CAUSE AN ACTUAL PANIC? It's a simply yes or know question which has fuck all to do with anything you just said.
Do you support jailing people for speaking up against the draft? It's a simple yes or no question.

No I do not. Now, do you think it would be OK to falsely yell fire in a crowded theater knowing it would cause an actual panic?
It's a garbage question because answering it requires being able to predict the future, "OK" is a meaningless standard, and on top of that the only reason you asked it was making it a garbage question, not to mention that the only reason you brought it up was to distract attention away from your support of totalitarian repression.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on October 08, 2021, 06:36:59 AM
It gets worse before it gets better. The Spanish Flu killed more people in the second year than it did in the first year. All pandemics eventually die down, but that doesn't mean they don't get worse over time in the first years.

But you knew this. You've gone into full retard mode lately in replies to me. I could say you shouldn't get the vaccine and you'd probably start advocating for the vaccine on instinct at this point.

No one knows what people killed by the Spanish flu actually died of. They weren't monitoring the cause of death particularly closely. Thus theories about things like accidental overdoses of aspirin.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on October 08, 2021, 06:41:07 AM
Because Delta variant is far more infectious, and it spread faster. Because that's how pandemics happen - they get worse over time. I really don't know how people don't get that it would have been much worse but-for the vaccine.
You're 100% right, the Spanish flu pandemic has killed twice as many people each since 1918. In 1918, it killed 50 million. In 1919, it killed 100. And in 2020 it killed 253,530,120,045,646,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 people.

Oops wait that didn't happen.

It gets worse before it gets better. The Spanish Flu killed more people in the second year than it did in the first year. All pandemics eventually die down, but that doesn't mean they don't get worse over time in the first years.

But you knew this. You've gone into full retard mode lately in replies to me. I could say you shouldn't get the vaccine and you'd probably start advocating for the vaccine on instinct at this point.
No, you're the one acting like a moron, because you keep on missing the points I've been making. "Things always get worse before they get better" is a completely meaningless statement. In any situation at all where something gets bad and it doesn't happen instantaneously, there is a point where it's getting worse. That's how graphs and simple logic works. But pretending that has predictive force in general is idiotic, because as long as the condition isn't infinitely exponential, there will also be a period when it's getting better. To show whether things are getting or better you have to show where on the curve we are. You can't just make a general statement about the nature of curves.

At least try to think about what you're saying.

And I've been fairly consistent about my beliefs, and upfront about where I've changed my mind, for instance on masks. Pretending otherwise just because you want to keep acting like a asshole doesn't make it so.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on October 08, 2021, 06:45:52 AM
It gets worse before it gets better. The Spanish Flu killed more people in the second year than it did in the first year. All pandemics eventually die down, but that doesn't mean they don't get worse over time in the first years.

But you knew this. You've gone into full retard mode lately in replies to me. I could say you shouldn't get the vaccine and you'd probably start advocating for the vaccine on instinct at this point.

No one knows what people killed by the Spanish flu actually died of. They weren't monitoring the cause of death particularly closely. Thus theories about things like accidental overdoses of aspirin.
If they were killed by the Spanish flu, then by definition we know what they died from.

But ignoring the misstatement, the number of people who die from a pandemic is always going to be an estimate not a hard figure, since we don't do serology tests on everyone and thus have to rely on clinical judgments. Though while there's always room to debate the numbers, aspirin ODing sounds kind of ridiculous.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on October 08, 2021, 06:52:03 AM
Wrong, it's because the "vaccines" cause the variants and are responsible for the higher levels of infection and death.

Were it not for the jabs and lockdowns, it would have completely burned itself out by last summer.
Once we saw widespread community transmission, covid-19 was always going to become endemic. Like all the other background diseases, there will be periodic or seasonal flareups, as immunity wanes and conditions allow it to spread more widely again. And we had plenty of variants and mutations before the vaccines arrived.

https://www.cbrc.kaust.edu.sa/covmt/
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on October 08, 2021, 06:58:22 AM
Once we saw widespread community transmission, covid-19 was always going to become endemic. Like all the other background diseases, there will be periodic or seasonal flareups, as immunity wanes and conditions allow it to spread more widely again. And we had plenty of variants and mutations before the vaccines arrived.

https://www.cbrc.kaust.edu.sa/covmt/

Coronaviruses are already endemic, which is why many people already had prior immunity that offered some protection even from last year's strain.

I'd have to go and find the chart showing the mutations, which have proliferated at a much faster than usual rate since the jabbing programmes began.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on October 08, 2021, 07:27:48 AM
Once we saw widespread community transmission, covid-19 was always going to become endemic. Like all the other background diseases, there will be periodic or seasonal flareups, as immunity wanes and conditions allow it to spread more widely again. And we had plenty of variants and mutations before the vaccines arrived.

https://www.cbrc.kaust.edu.sa/covmt/

Coronaviruses are already endemic, which is why many people already had prior immunity that offered some protection even from last year's strain.

I'd have to go and find the chart showing the mutations, which have proliferated at a much faster than usual rate since the jabbing programmes began.
Coronaviruses are a whole family of viruses. That's like saying tigers aren't dangerous because housecats are everywhere. And cross-immunity to the new coronavirus is based on specific similar diseases like SARS1, not coronaviruses in general.

And why don't you find that chart? It could be interesting.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on October 08, 2021, 09:18:02 AM
Coronaviruses are a whole family of viruses. That's like saying tigers aren't dangerous because housecats are everywhere. And cross-immunity to the new coronavirus is based on specific similar diseases like SARS1, not coronaviruses in general.

And why don't you find that chart? It could be interesting.

It's more like saying feral cats aren't dangerous because housecats are everywhere, but the point still stands that cross-immunity exists.

It came from Nextstrain:

Thus (http://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/66d0bffa6f67a7a16c9088a6434cc8c9c224b9056c92c2342fb269dd8cfb311d.jpg)

Also discussed at 02:11:00 here (https://www.twitch.tv/gigaohmbiological/video/1166770916). As I keep saying, vaccines cause the variants through selective evolutionary pressure. It isn't the unjabbed who need to worry, it's the jabbed who've been primed for a selective kind of "immunity".
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: DocJones on October 08, 2021, 10:09:46 AM
DO YOU THINK IT WOULD BE OK TO FALSELY YELL FIRE IN A CROWDED THEATER KNOWING IT WOULD CAUSE AN ACTUAL PANIC? It's a simply yes or know question which has fuck all to do with anything you just said.
Today that question isn't so simple.  It's an equity calculation based on the races, sexes and sexual orientations of the participants.
For example: If the yeller is a BIPOC and the crowd is made up of hetero white male oppressors (aka notsees) then no charges will even be brought.
/sarc
 
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Zelen on October 08, 2021, 10:31:08 AM
Interesting new study.
Increases in COVID-19 are unrelated to levels of vaccination across 68 countries and 2947 counties in the United States (https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10654-021-00808-7)
Also how do you square the notion that we had ~375K deaths in all of 2020 before vaccinations were available but have ~325K so far in 2021 after the vaccinations were available.

Because Delta variant is far more infectious, and it spread faster. Because that's how pandemics happen - they get worse over time. I really don't know how people don't get that it would have been much worse but-for the vaccine.

When we are presented with evidence ("More people are getting sick and dying this year than last year") we cannot immediately jump to the conclusion ("We just need to do the stuff we tried that didn't work, but more!"). That is irrational. And to be fair, I do think injections are generally a good idea for at-risk populations, but I don't think they are an one-size-fits-all approach.

A policy of honesty and openness, in which we given the option alongside early treatments such as HCQ & Ivermectin, would almost certainly have saved more lives and developed robust herd immunity as we have seen in Sweden, India, etc.

Instead we have a policy of deceit and blame, stoking divisions and creating distrust. We have closed off discussion about early treatment topics known to be extremely effective, and are now punishing people who object, and creating huge negative externalities of suicide, depression, cancer risk, and more. All of which is driven by gullible people who have been deceived into playing evangelist for corrupt profit-seeking corporations.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on October 08, 2021, 11:17:33 PM
Making a shitty Facebook post: Jail-worthy. Free Speech be Damned.

How does this meaningfully differ from falsely yelling fire in a crowded theater to you? The jury found his posts were "knowingly designed to spread fear and panic" and that it was intended as a direct threat to people's safety. I mean, you guys not believing in the threat of Covid is meaningless - he knew his audience did believe in that threat. It's like if you thought a gun was unloaded and didn't fear that gun being pointed at you but other people reasonably thought the gun was loaded and would fear it being pointed at them. It wasn't some prank or a joke - he really did intend to cause a panic over this. That's what the jury found.
Yelling fire in a crowded theater is a paraphrase of Oliver Wendell Holmes. Specifically, he used it in support of the conviction of a man for peacefully speaking out against the draft. It's a notorious violation of civil rights. And not only was the phrase just a rhetorical flourish and never a legally binding standard of any kind, but key elements of the decision were overturned in 1969, so the case isn't even a precedent.

So you're attempting to defend repression with a past example of repression that holds no legal force and is widely considered to be one of the dark moments of American history.

Pat it's a legit example of what would be real criminal speech. It was used in law school by professors as a clear easy example of a line you can draw with speech. But you as usual instinctively gadfly it while continuing to not even talk about the issue inherent in the topic.

DO YOU THINK IT WOULD BE OK TO FALSELY YELL FIRE IN A CROWDED THEATER KNOWING IT WOULD CAUSE AN ACTUAL PANIC? It's a simply yes or know question which has fuck all to do with anything you just said.
Do you support jailing people for speaking up against the draft? It's a simple yes or no question.

No I do not. Now, do you think it would be OK to falsely yell fire in a crowded theater knowing it would cause an actual panic?
It's a garbage question because answering it requires being able to predict the future, "OK" is a meaningless standard, and on top of that the only reason you asked it was making it a garbage question, not to mention that the only reason you brought it up was to distract attention away from your support of totalitarian repression.

So you asked me a yes or no question with no nuance and I gave you a direct answer. I asked you the same kind of question and you throw a fucking tissy fit and take your ball and go home without answering. Gotcha.

When I say you have been behaving like a shithead lately, consider this a clear example of that bad behavior. You're basically saying the golden rule is one way - you do not hold yourself to the standard you hold me to.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on October 08, 2021, 11:29:24 PM
So you asked me a yes or no question with no nuance and I gave you a direct answer. I asked you the same kind of question and you throw a fucking tissy fit and take your ball and go home without answering. Gotcha.

When I say you have been behaving like a shithead lately, consider this a clear example of that bad behavior. You're basically saying the golden rule is one way - you do not hold yourself to the standard you hold me to.
It's an irrelevant question. You're just trying to distract from the real issue. I replied in kind to demonstrate that to you, and now you're playing dumb as another distraction, along with pretending you're injured as an excuse to call me names again. That's asshole behavior. You're behaving like an asshole.

Who supports totalitarian repression. Which is vile.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on October 09, 2021, 10:01:49 PM
So you asked me a yes or no question with no nuance and I gave you a direct answer. I asked you the same kind of question and you throw a fucking tissy fit and take your ball and go home without answering. Gotcha.

When I say you have been behaving like a shithead lately, consider this a clear example of that bad behavior. You're basically saying the golden rule is one way - you do not hold yourself to the standard you hold me to.
It's an irrelevant question.

It doesn't matter what your opinion of the question might be, it's a matter of reciprocity. You asked a question I found deeply irrelevant as well - so did you, since you did NOTHING with my answer and appear to have had no point to asking it. But I answered it anyway in good faith, because you asked and stated clearly you wanted a yes or no response and I gave it to you, because maybe you had a point you were getting to and I gave you the room to make that point if that was the direction you wanted to go.

You don't hold yourself to that same standard. It's you just being an asshole. This doesn't appear to be a conversation to you right now. There is no give and take. You're in all-take mode right now. You are not tolerant of any dissent from your view lately. It's either people agree with you or you go all-aggressive all the time. I am not the only one who has pointed it out. I get that's the theme of this section of the message board, but I am pointing it out to you because this is not who you normally were around here. You're not Kiero. Or at least you were not before.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on October 09, 2021, 10:30:00 PM
So you asked me a yes or no question with no nuance and I gave you a direct answer. I asked you the same kind of question and you throw a fucking tissy fit and take your ball and go home without answering. Gotcha.

When I say you have been behaving like a shithead lately, consider this a clear example of that bad behavior. You're basically saying the golden rule is one way - you do not hold yourself to the standard you hold me to.
It's an irrelevant question.

It doesn't matter what your opinion of the question might be, it's a matter of reciprocity. You asked a question I found deeply irrelevant as well - so did you, since you did NOTHING with my answer and appear to have had no point to asking it. But I answered it anyway in good faith, because you asked and stated clearly you wanted a yes or no response and I gave it to you, because maybe you had a point you were getting to and I gave you the room to make that point if that was the direction you wanted to go.

You don't hold yourself to that same standard. It's you just being an asshole. This doesn't appear to be a conversation to you right now. There is no give and take. You're in all-take mode right now. You are not tolerant of any dissent from your view lately. It's either people agree with you or you go all-aggressive all the time. I am not the only one who has pointed it out. I get that's the theme of this section of the message board, but I am pointing it out to you because this is not who you normally were around here. You're not Kiero. Or at least you were not before.
... and you completely ignored what I said.

As I just explained, I asked a patently irrelevant question to show you, by example, what it felt like having someone ask an utterly irrelevant question that has nothing to do with the topic. You weren't supposed to answer it. It's completely absurd that you answered it. And you clearly only answered it so you can pretend you're offended.

That's ridiculous. It's like hearing the start of a knock knock joke, and acting outraged because there's nobody at the door.

Though you're right, this isn't a conversation. It's just you repeatedly insulting me, even when you have to resort to the weakest of all possible premises.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: FelixGamingX1 on October 10, 2021, 01:19:58 AM
Pat, don’t you know? Ad Hominen is trending right now.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on October 29, 2021, 03:18:14 PM
So when you brain-dead lemmings are on your fourth or fifth jab next year, and I've still had none and I'm still in perfect health, might you start to wonder if you've been conned?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on October 29, 2021, 03:34:30 PM
So when you brain-dead lemmings are on your fourth or fifth jab next year, and I've still had none and I'm still in perfect health, might you start to wonder if you've been conned?
You do nothing but lie, so why would anyone believe that you haven't been vaccinated or that you are in perfect health?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: FelixGamingX1 on October 29, 2021, 03:38:06 PM
So when you brain-dead lemmings are on your fourth or fifth jab next year, and I've still had none and I'm still in perfect health, might you start to wonder if you've been conned?
You do nothing but lie, so why would anyone believe that you haven't been vaccinated or that you are in perfect health?
You know he been jabbed…
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on October 29, 2021, 04:21:16 PM
You do nothing but lie, so why would anyone believe that you haven't been vaccinated or that you are in perfect health?

Bless, the only way you can accept what I've said is assuming I must be lying. I've been invited repeatedly, and ignored them.

Anyway, some of you pincushions might not be here next year (because of >rare reactions to your boosters), so we'll see.

You know he been jabbed…

Just because you're a dumbass who likes being told what to do, don't assume everyone else is.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ratman_tf on October 29, 2021, 04:33:23 PM
So you asked me a yes or no question with no nuance and I gave you a direct answer. I asked you the same kind of question and you throw a fucking tissy fit and take your ball and go home without answering. Gotcha.

When I say you have been behaving like a shithead lately, consider this a clear example of that bad behavior. You're basically saying the golden rule is one way - you do not hold yourself to the standard you hold me to.
It's an irrelevant question.

It doesn't matter what your opinion of the question might be, it's a matter of reciprocity. You asked a question I found deeply irrelevant as well - so did you, since you did NOTHING with my answer and appear to have had no point to asking it. But I answered it anyway in good faith, because you asked and stated clearly you wanted a yes or no response and I gave it to you, because maybe you had a point you were getting to and I gave you the room to make that point if that was the direction you wanted to go.

You don't hold yourself to that same standard. It's you just being an asshole. This doesn't appear to be a conversation to you right now. There is no give and take. You're in all-take mode right now. You are not tolerant of any dissent from your view lately. It's either people agree with you or you go all-aggressive all the time. I am not the only one who has pointed it out. I get that's the theme of this section of the message board, but I am pointing it out to you because this is not who you normally were around here. You're not Kiero. Or at least you were not before.
... and you completely ignored what I said.

As I just explained, I asked a patently irrelevant question to show you, by example, what it felt like having someone ask an utterly irrelevant question that has nothing to do with the topic. You weren't supposed to answer it. It's completely absurd that you answered it. And you clearly only answered it so you can pretend you're offended.

That's ridiculous. It's like hearing the start of a knock knock joke, and acting outraged because there's nobody at the door.

:D
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: tenbones on November 06, 2021, 12:43:24 AM
I've already refused the vax. I have natural immunity.

If they imprison me, they will only make me more powerful than they can know.

(in truth my team handles all the medical and financial data of our regions primary medical research facility which includes Covid. If any of us go to jail over this - people will definitely die, since we supply day-to-day needs of surgeons, doctors and clinical staff.)

But I'm in TX, thankfully our Governor is flipping the finger at Biden. My facility is the largest medical research hospital in Dallas and we're bursting at the seams with (as of 11:38PM tonight) NINE whole cases of Covid in our multi-thousand beds across six hospitals. 7 are non-ICU.

Our nineteen thousand clinical staff that deals directly with Covid patients in research and care, have totaled only 30 cases in the last month and a half. There are ZERO people scheduled for testing tomorrow - in a city of well over a million people, at a centrally located super-facility.

The fear-mongering by people on the left on behalf of the authoritarians is more scary than Covid itself.

Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: 3catcircus on November 06, 2021, 10:14:16 AM
I've already refused the vax. I have natural immunity.

If they imprison me, they will only make me more powerful than they can know.

(in truth my team handles all the medical and financial data of our regions primary medical research facility which includes Covid. If any of us go to jail over this - people will definitely die, since we supply day-to-day needs of surgeons, doctors and clinical staff.)

But I'm in TX, thankfully our Governor is flipping the finger at Biden. My facility is the largest medical research hospital in Dallas and we're bursting at the seams with (as of 11:38PM tonight) NINE whole cases of Covid in our multi-thousand beds across six hospitals. 7 are non-ICU.

Our nineteen thousand clinical staff that deals directly with Covid patients in research and care, have totaled only 30 cases in the last month and a half. There are ZERO people scheduled for testing tomorrow - in a city of well over a million people, at a centrally located super-facility.

The fear-mongering by people on the left on behalf of the authoritarians is more scary than Covid itself.

We've gotten to this point because we elected the stupid and immoral to run our governments, hired the mediocre to be the day-to-day government bureaucrats, and accepted the incompetent to advise them.  What else could we have expected when those in positions of authority are relying upon expert advice from scientific bureaucrats who've never been involved in stopping actual epidemics, backed up by academics whose models have never been correct?

Additionally, none of them understand instinctual human behavior which will have people self segregate when dealing with everyone around them getting sick - without mandates of any kind.  It also doesn't help that humans have a terrible ability to assess risk except to themselves.

I'm 50, fat, and have high blood pressure.  For me, getting vaxed was a more acceptable risk than getting covid.  I still got covid. I still had to have monoclonal antibodies.  As did my wife.  Both of our kids also got covid at the same time as us but were unvaxed.  They're healthy teen athletes with excellent cardiovascular health.  Their symptoms were congestion and a slight fever for a day or 2.

I don't need a bureaucrat telling me my kids need a vaccine when they obviously didn't.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: dkabq on November 06, 2021, 10:18:31 AM
I've already refused the vax. I have natural immunity.

If they imprison me, they will only make me more powerful than they can know.

(in truth my team handles all the medical and financial data of our regions primary medical research facility which includes Covid. If any of us go to jail over this - people will definitely die, since we supply day-to-day needs of surgeons, doctors and clinical staff.)

But I'm in TX, thankfully our Governor is flipping the finger at Biden. My facility is the largest medical research hospital in Dallas and we're bursting at the seams with (as of 11:38PM tonight) NINE whole cases of Covid in our multi-thousand beds across six hospitals. 7 are non-ICU.

Our nineteen thousand clinical staff that deals directly with Covid patients in research and care, have totaled only 30 cases in the last month and a half. There are ZERO people scheduled for testing tomorrow - in a city of well over a million people, at a centrally located super-facility.

The fear-mongering by people on the left on behalf of the authoritarians is more scary than Covid itself.

We've gotten to this point because we elected the stupid and immoral to run our governments, hired the mediocre to be the day-to-day government bureaucrats, and accepted the incompetent to advise them.  What else could we have expected when those in positions of authority are relying upon expert advice from scientific bureaucrats who've never been involved in stopping actual epidemics, backed up by academics whose models have never been correct?

Additionally, none of them understand instinctual human behavior which will have people self segregate when dealing with everyone around them getting sick - without mandates of any kind.  It also doesn't help that humans have a terrible ability to assess risk except to themselves.

I'm 50, fat, and have high blood pressure.  For me, getting vaxed was a more acceptable risk than getting covid.  I still got covid. I still had to have monoclonal antibodies.  As did my wife.  Both of our kids also got covid at the same time as us but were unvaxed.  They're healthy teen athletes with excellent cardiovascular health.  Their symptoms were congestion and a slight fever for a day or 2.

I don't need a bureaucrat telling me my kids need a vaccine when they obviously didn't.

<snark>
But your unvaccinated kids are literally killing grannies.
</snark>
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: 3catcircus on November 06, 2021, 10:31:39 AM
I've already refused the vax. I have natural immunity.

If they imprison me, they will only make me more powerful than they can know.

(in truth my team handles all the medical and financial data of our regions primary medical research facility which includes Covid. If any of us go to jail over this - people will definitely die, since we supply day-to-day needs of surgeons, doctors and clinical staff.)

But I'm in TX, thankfully our Governor is flipping the finger at Biden. My facility is the largest medical research hospital in Dallas and we're bursting at the seams with (as of 11:38PM tonight) NINE whole cases of Covid in our multi-thousand beds across six hospitals. 7 are non-ICU.

Our nineteen thousand clinical staff that deals directly with Covid patients in research and care, have totaled only 30 cases in the last month and a half. There are ZERO people scheduled for testing tomorrow - in a city of well over a million people, at a centrally located super-facility.

The fear-mongering by people on the left on behalf of the authoritarians is more scary than Covid itself.

We've gotten to this point because we elected the stupid and immoral to run our governments, hired the mediocre to be the day-to-day government bureaucrats, and accepted the incompetent to advise them.  What else could we have expected when those in positions of authority are relying upon expert advice from scientific bureaucrats who've never been involved in stopping actual epidemics, backed up by academics whose models have never been correct?

Additionally, none of them understand instinctual human behavior which will have people self segregate when dealing with everyone around them getting sick - without mandates of any kind.  It also doesn't help that humans have a terrible ability to assess risk except to themselves.

I'm 50, fat, and have high blood pressure.  For me, getting vaxed was a more acceptable risk than getting covid.  I still got covid. I still had to have monoclonal antibodies.  As did my wife.  Both of our kids also got covid at the same time as us but were unvaxed.  They're healthy teen athletes with excellent cardiovascular health.  Their symptoms were congestion and a slight fever for a day or 2.

I don't need a bureaucrat telling me my kids need a vaccine when they obviously didn't.

<snark>
But your unvaccinated kids are literally killing grannies.
</snark>

Which goes back to the basic observation that "the experts" refuse to address - if granny is vaccinated, why do you care if grandkids are unvaccinated?  Oh, you mean it doesn't *actually* 100% prevent everyone who is vaccinated from being infected and developing symptoms?!?!  Why weren't you vocal about it for flu, measles, or pertussis which also aren't 100%?!?!  Or did you mean that COVID vax are like vaccines used by vets that are non-sterilizing (like the kennel cough vax our dog gets and she can't go to doggie camp for 2 weeks afterwards so she doesn't infect there other dogs)...
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Wntrlnd on November 06, 2021, 12:09:07 PM
I've already refused the vax. I have natural immunity.

If they imprison me, they will only make me more powerful than they can know.

(in truth my team handles all the medical and financial data of our regions primary medical research facility which includes Covid. If any of us go to jail over this - people will definitely die, since we supply day-to-day needs of surgeons, doctors and clinical staff.)

But I'm in TX, thankfully our Governor is flipping the finger at Biden. My facility is the largest medical research hospital in Dallas and we're bursting at the seams with (as of 11:38PM tonight) NINE whole cases of Covid in our multi-thousand beds across six hospitals. 7 are non-ICU.

Our nineteen thousand clinical staff that deals directly with Covid patients in research and care, have totaled only 30 cases in the last month and a half. There are ZERO people scheduled for testing tomorrow - in a city of well over a million people, at a centrally located super-facility.

The fear-mongering by people on the left on behalf of the authoritarians is more scary than Covid itself.

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/covid-19-do-vaccines-protect-better-than-infection-induced-immunity#The-study-method (https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/covid-19-do-vaccines-protect-better-than-infection-induced-immunity#The-study-method)

I can save you the click and having read it I can say: They do.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on November 06, 2021, 01:09:08 PM
All-cause mortality up 15% in the UK since the jabbination began. I'm sure that's just a coincidental correlation, though. Even though teenage deaths are up almost 50% since their cohort began being jabbed. We're treated to regular stories now of "sudden" deaths in young teens.

Totally worth it to assuage the fears of neurotic Boomers and Karens, though.

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/covid-19-do-vaccines-protect-better-than-infection-induced-immunity#The-study-method (https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/covid-19-do-vaccines-protect-better-than-infection-induced-immunity#The-study-method)

I can save you the click and having read it I can say: They do.

Utter bullshit and counter to the data from Israel (significantly more jabbed than the US) which shows natural immunity somewhere in the order of 23 times more effective than that given by the jabs.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: tenbones on November 06, 2021, 02:08:50 PM
I've already refused the vax. I have natural immunity.

If they imprison me, they will only make me more powerful than they can know.

(in truth my team handles all the medical and financial data of our regions primary medical research facility which includes Covid. If any of us go to jail over this - people will definitely die, since we supply day-to-day needs of surgeons, doctors and clinical staff.)

But I'm in TX, thankfully our Governor is flipping the finger at Biden. My facility is the largest medical research hospital in Dallas and we're bursting at the seams with (as of 11:38PM tonight) NINE whole cases of Covid in our multi-thousand beds across six hospitals. 7 are non-ICU.

Our nineteen thousand clinical staff that deals directly with Covid patients in research and care, have totaled only 30 cases in the last month and a half. There are ZERO people scheduled for testing tomorrow - in a city of well over a million people, at a centrally located super-facility.

The fear-mongering by people on the left on behalf of the authoritarians is more scary than Covid itself.

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/covid-19-do-vaccines-protect-better-than-infection-induced-immunity#The-study-method (https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/covid-19-do-vaccines-protect-better-than-infection-induced-immunity#The-study-method)

I can save you the click and having read it I can say: They do.

Well let me save you the snark and tell you - even in your own article - just like in my own facilities internal studies which supported the Israeli studies, that the exact opposite appeared to be true. In your own article they claim their results were based on "Covid-LIKE symptoms, not necessarily Covid itself." And they cite the Israeli studies that actually show the exact opposite, including long-term longitudinal (to the degree we can have them) which are ongoing - whose test base is an order of magnitude greater than this sample in the article. 2.5-million people vs. 200k.

Their results were vastly different. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-021-03696-9 and the immunity effects last much longer than any of the vaccines.

My facility's data trends much closer to the Israeli's but our sample-size is a lot smaller. So I trust *myself* and my organization, and my numbers. I'm an adult and I can see and compare other people's results too. When I see jargon tossed into an article to justify differing results well that's naturally red flags.

This doesn't mean I dismiss it - what it does do is exemplify the probability of this virus being man-made to affect Humans the way it does in a vascular attack - which impacts everything, not just the respiratory (that's a side-effect).

This means more testing yields clearer paths. Right now, no research studies are even close to the numbers being culled by the Israelis - and here in America, and Europe, there are clear signs of institutional agendas in play.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on November 06, 2021, 03:32:28 PM
If only they'd carried out the normal 3-5 years of proper testing before rolling out to the general population...
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: 3catcircus on November 06, 2021, 03:46:04 PM
I've already refused the vax. I have natural immunity.

If they imprison me, they will only make me more powerful than they can know.

(in truth my team handles all the medical and financial data of our regions primary medical research facility which includes Covid. If any of us go to jail over this - people will definitely die, since we supply day-to-day needs of surgeons, doctors and clinical staff.)

But I'm in TX, thankfully our Governor is flipping the finger at Biden. My facility is the largest medical research hospital in Dallas and we're bursting at the seams with (as of 11:38PM tonight) NINE whole cases of Covid in our multi-thousand beds across six hospitals. 7 are non-ICU.

Our nineteen thousand clinical staff that deals directly with Covid patients in research and care, have totaled only 30 cases in the last month and a half. There are ZERO people scheduled for testing tomorrow - in a city of well over a million people, at a centrally located super-facility.

The fear-mongering by people on the left on behalf of the authoritarians is more scary than Covid itself.

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/covid-19-do-vaccines-protect-better-than-infection-induced-immunity#The-study-method (https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/covid-19-do-vaccines-protect-better-than-infection-induced-immunity#The-study-method)

I can save you the click and having read it I can say: They do.

That study doesn't say what you think it says...

"Among the 6,328 people who were fully vaccinated, 324 (or 5.1%) had a positive COVID-19 PCR test. Among the 1,020 who were unvaccinated and who had previously had the infection, 89 (or 8.7%) had a positive COVID-19 PCR test."

Read that paragraph carefully.  They're comparing apples and bicycles...

Of the fully vaccinated who had a positive test vs. of the unvaccinated who previously had the infection who had a positive test...

PCR will detect viral debris which will be a positive result for 12 or more weeks after someone had been infected (whether symptomatic or asymptomatic).  They're comparing only those who know they had COVID in the unvaxxed vs. all of the vaxxed.  Compare *all* of the unvaxxed vs. *all* of the vaxxed in that study.  I'm betting the percentage for the unvaxxed drops to the same or lower than the vaxxed.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on November 06, 2021, 03:55:56 PM
The PCR test is bullshit, it wasn't even designed to be used in this way. When run at 40-45 cycles, it will pick up absolutely any viral fragments present and call it "positive".
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ratman_tf on November 06, 2021, 04:05:09 PM
If only they'd carried out the normal 3-5 years of proper testing before rolling out to the general population...

Hey man, are you some kinda anti-vaxxer? [/s]
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: 3catcircus on November 06, 2021, 05:40:23 PM
The PCR test is bullshit, it wasn't even designed to be used in this way. When run at 40-45 cycles, it will pick up absolutely any viral fragments present and call it "positive".

The good Dr. Mullis was on video destroying Fauxi a decade or so ago when Fauxi was using it to declare someone as infected with the high five (HIV).  I think the guy who invented PCR knows what he's talking about...

I find it "interesting" that the medical establishment has never previously declared someone infected with flu or colds by PCR testing but they're happy to do so for the 'rona.  You could've wandered around asymptomatically carrying Vulcan death flu and we would never have known it...
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on November 07, 2021, 03:15:42 PM
Gosh, what a surprise this is: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10173159/Covid-plans-ban-hassle-free-foreign-travel-fail-jab.html?fbclid=IwAR0JwEI3ERGMC2KAcXQWl7NOd2BQMjIv4JodCemNJSzMVG3mA6YQawM7A1I

Double-jabbed is no longer "fully vaccinated".
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: SHARK on November 07, 2021, 06:03:24 PM
Gosh, what a surprise this is: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10173159/Covid-plans-ban-hassle-free-foreign-travel-fail-jab.html?fbclid=IwAR0JwEI3ERGMC2KAcXQWl7NOd2BQMjIv4JodCemNJSzMVG3mA6YQawM7A1I

Double-jabbed is no longer "fully vaccinated".

Greetings!

Yep, Kiero! Just like I have been saying since the beginning--this bullshit will never stop. There will always be more "variants" and more booster shots and mandates and restrictions required.

And more tyranny imposed.

Everyone needs to stand up and resist this fucking tyranny.

So sad, Kiero.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on November 07, 2021, 07:12:52 PM
We need a remake of They Live.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on November 08, 2021, 05:41:02 AM
Greetings!

Yep, Kiero! Just like I have been saying since the beginning--this bullshit will never stop. There will always be more "variants" and more booster shots and mandates and restrictions required.

And more tyranny imposed.

Everyone needs to stand up and resist this fucking tyranny.

So sad, Kiero.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Indeed, plenty of us have been saying this from the beginning, but we're the crazy ones...
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: FelixGamingX1 on November 11, 2021, 10:26:24 PM
Spoiler Alert: Next social trend, who got more jabs!?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on November 12, 2021, 05:55:43 AM
Spoiler Alert: Next social trend, who got more jabs!?

Roll the dice on the adverse reaction chart!
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on November 12, 2021, 06:31:39 AM
Spoiler Alert: Next social trend, who got more jabs!?

Roll the dice on the adverse reaction chart!
I roll on the wandering government intervention table. Damn it, it's a jab-dart drone! That's not fair, we're only 2nd level!
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: DM_Curt on November 12, 2021, 09:15:05 AM
Spoiler Alert: Next social trend, who got more jabs!?

Roll the dice on the adverse reaction chart!
14. Osteo-Arthritus?  Fuck.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: 3catcircus on November 12, 2021, 01:55:29 PM
Spoiler Alert: Next social trend, who got more jabs!?

Roll the dice on the adverse reaction chart!
14. Osteo-Arthritus?  Fuck.


Pppssshhttt.  I had that even before COVID.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: DM_Curt on November 12, 2021, 04:27:25 PM
Spoiler Alert: Next social trend, who got more jabs!?

Roll the dice on the adverse reaction chart!
14. Osteo-Arthritus?  Fuck.


Pppssshhttt.  I had that even before COVID.
Damn Arthritus Hipsters, having it "before it was cool"!
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: 3catcircus on November 12, 2021, 08:50:32 PM
Spoiler Alert: Next social trend, who got more jabs!?

Roll the dice on the adverse reaction chart!
14. Osteo-Arthritus?  Fuck.


Pppssshhttt.  I had that even before COVID.
Damn Arthritus Hipsters, having it "before it was cool"!

That's what happens when, as a young'un, every time you go to "Doc" for injuries and he gives you 800 mg Motrin and a dose of indifference instead of sending you to the Base Clinic.

Fast forward 30 years and I have pain in joints I didn't even know were joints.  And it's like "today I'ma wake up and see whether or not I have to spend 10 minutes in a hot shower for everything to no longer be painful." Going to sleep, once you get there and lose muscle tone as everything relaxes, it seems, madness things worse because you aren't constantly in motion.  Sitting for to long in one position. Stuff that just starts hurting for no reason and then a few days later stops hurting.  Great fun - my free souvenir from my time in the navy.  That and hearing loss due to cheap-ass foam ear protection while working in an engine room...
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Timothe on November 13, 2021, 02:52:07 AM
The vaccinations aren't even FDA approved, for crying out loud.

They will be. They will be…
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Zelen on November 13, 2021, 03:44:35 AM
Austria has announced they will be imprisoning all unvaccinated persons. I know Australia beat them to the punch by over a year, but I expect to see pretty much all of Europe following suit over the course of the winter.

Prophecy of this thread is being fulfilled.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on November 13, 2021, 05:37:18 AM
At this point I'm surprised we're not seeing massive armed rebellions, governments being overthrown, and country borders being redrawn.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Timothe on November 13, 2021, 06:42:48 AM
We didn’t see massive armed rebellions after the Court unconstitutionally decided abortion and gay marriage. Why would we see them now?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: 3catcircus on November 13, 2021, 07:02:08 AM
We didn’t see massive armed rebellions after the Court unconstitutionally decided abortion and gay marriage. Why would we see them now?

Because those were court rulings made in a lawful fashion rather than edicts issued by uneducated tyrants.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on November 13, 2021, 08:52:11 AM
How is a court ruling that allowed a small group of people to marry in any way comparable to executive mandates that shut down the entire economy for years and strip people of their right to work, travel, shop, or even leave their house unless they undergo a particular medical treatment? That's just a ridiculous comparison.

And since when did "countries" become "just the US"?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on November 14, 2021, 08:36:32 AM
Austria has announced they will be imprisoning all unvaccinated persons. I know Australia beat them to the punch by over a year, but I expect to see pretty much all of Europe following suit over the course of the winter.

Prophecy of this thread is being fulfilled.

They can certainly try, they can get fucked if they think I'll be staying indoors just because I'm unjabbed.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: 3catcircus on November 14, 2021, 08:44:27 AM
Austria has announced they will be imprisoning all unvaccinated persons. I know Australia beat them to the punch by over a year, but I expect to see pretty much all of Europe following suit over the course of the winter.

Prophecy of this thread is being fulfilled.

They can certainly try, they can get fucked if they think I'll be staying indoors just because I'm unjabbed.

At what point does the populace need to become violent in opposition to law enforcement?  You guys don't have a right to bear arms, so it becomes infinitely more difficult.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on November 14, 2021, 08:51:23 AM
At what point does the populace need to become violent in opposition to law enforcement?  You guys don't have a right to bear arms, so it becomes infinitely more difficult.

There will be no resistance, 95%+ of the British are cowardly, pliant sheep who like being told what to do.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: 3catcircus on November 14, 2021, 09:04:10 AM
At what point does the populace need to become violent in opposition to law enforcement?  You guys don't have a right to bear arms, so it becomes infinitely more difficult.

There will be no resistance, 95%+ of the British are cowardly, pliant sheep who like being told what to do.

I've seen that amongst all commonwealth nations - old habits of being subjects instead of citizens die hard...
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Shasarak on November 14, 2021, 03:43:11 PM
At what point does the populace need to become violent in opposition to law enforcement?  You guys don't have a right to bear arms, so it becomes infinitely more difficult.

There will be no resistance, 95%+ of the British are cowardly, pliant sheep who like being told what to do.

If I know Englanders, and I think that I can say that I dont really, it is that they will probably do what ever they want to do regardless of what their Government wants.

For example, the 10pm curfew at Pubs.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on November 14, 2021, 03:57:18 PM
If I know Englanders, and I think that I can say that I dont really, it is that they will probably do what ever they want to do regardless of what their Government wants.

For example, the 10pm curfew at Pubs.

You haven't seen how meekly the overwhelming majority have gone along with all this bollocks.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: SHARK on November 14, 2021, 09:01:03 PM
Greetings!

Great commentary on the vaccination and mask mandates going on in society.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: tenbones on November 16, 2021, 11:57:10 AM
My facility has officially put notice to all of its employees we have until Dec. 8th to get vaccinated. January 4th to be fully vaccinated (so I assume boosters +?)

I just got out of my meeting with my VP and Director - and let them know as someone with natural immunity, I refuse.

So...

We'll see what happens.

(edit: I'm not sure how this squares with our Texas executive orders which says such mandates are illegal - but given our facility is a State run facility - I'm feeling I'm on safe ground. And I fully plan on looking for philosophical and religious exemptions etc.)
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on November 16, 2021, 12:55:05 PM

(edit: I'm not sure how this squares with our Texas executive orders which says such mandates are illegal - but given our facility is a State run facility - I'm feeling I'm on safe ground. And I fully plan on looking for philosophical and religious exemptions etc.)
Good luck. Might be time to start a new Church of Anti-Authoritarianism.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on November 16, 2021, 12:59:13 PM
My facility has officially put notice to all of its employees we have until Dec. 8th to get vaccinated. January 4th to be fully vaccinated (so I assume boosters +?)

I just got out of my meeting with my VP and Director - and let them know as someone with natural immunity, I refuse.

So...

We'll see what happens.

(edit: I'm not sure how this squares with our Texas executive orders which says such mandates are illegal - but given our facility is a State run facility - I'm feeling I'm on safe ground. And I fully plan on looking for philosophical and religious exemptions etc.)

Since when did they have the power to arbitrarily and unilaterally rewrite your contract of employment?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on November 16, 2021, 12:59:41 PM
This isn't co-ordinated, no not at all...

(https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/94ba5b95fca295faf2377f79522f23468ebf99035fadd5d8b356abeb443bd16d.png)
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: tenbones on November 16, 2021, 02:08:26 PM
My facility has officially put notice to all of its employees we have until Dec. 8th to get vaccinated. January 4th to be fully vaccinated (so I assume boosters +?)

I just got out of my meeting with my VP and Director - and let them know as someone with natural immunity, I refuse.

So...

We'll see what happens.

(edit: I'm not sure how this squares with our Texas executive orders which says such mandates are illegal - but given our facility is a State run facility - I'm feeling I'm on safe ground. And I fully plan on looking for philosophical and religious exemptions etc.)

Since when did they have the power to arbitrarily and unilaterally rewrite your contract of employment?

No idea. But then since when did the President have the power to unilaterally mandate medical procedures to the citizenry? Apparently it seems to be a thing.

I have no idea where this is going.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ghostmaker on November 16, 2021, 02:37:46 PM
My facility has officially put notice to all of its employees we have until Dec. 8th to get vaccinated. January 4th to be fully vaccinated (so I assume boosters +?)

I just got out of my meeting with my VP and Director - and let them know as someone with natural immunity, I refuse.

So...

We'll see what happens.

(edit: I'm not sure how this squares with our Texas executive orders which says such mandates are illegal - but given our facility is a State run facility - I'm feeling I'm on safe ground. And I fully plan on looking for philosophical and religious exemptions etc.)

Since when did they have the power to arbitrarily and unilaterally rewrite your contract of employment?

No idea. But then since when did the President have the power to unilaterally mandate medical procedures to the citizenry? Apparently it seems to be a thing.

I have no idea where this is going.
Check out Austria for starters.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on November 16, 2021, 02:46:21 PM
Check out Austria for starters.

Germany "could" be considering a lockdown only for the unjabbed too.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: SHARK on November 16, 2021, 02:50:30 PM
Check out Austria for starters.

Germany "could" be considering a lockdown only for the unjabbed too.

Greetings!

GOOD! Then, the people of Germany and Austria will have all the justification they need to rise up and hang every member of their corrupt, tyrannical governments. Burn their fucking houses down, and make these scum run for the sewers and hide like rats. Get rid of these corrupt governments, and establish TRUE freedom.

When are people going to have enough of being treated like sheep and slaves?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Zelen on November 16, 2021, 05:30:28 PM
I have no idea where this is going.

For Spoiler Alerts, see mid-20th century Germany, Russia, China, Cambodia, etc.

People who are living in Europe right now should consider forming mutual protection groups in order to protect themselves from the stormtroopers. Solzhenitsyn had some important points to make about how stormtroopers enforcing illegal orders shouldn't feel safe going home at night.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on November 16, 2021, 05:58:32 PM
And because some of you blinkered cunts think I just make this stuff up: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2021/11/16/germany-could-introduce-lockdown-measures-unvaccinated-people/

How are German ICUs full of unvaccinated people, when in the UK they're full of the double-jabbed? Or is that yet another politician lying...
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: KingCheops on November 17, 2021, 11:08:28 AM
My facility has officially put notice to all of its employees we have until Dec. 8th to get vaccinated. January 4th to be fully vaccinated (so I assume boosters +?)

I just got out of my meeting with my VP and Director - and let them know as someone with natural immunity, I refuse.

So...

We'll see what happens.

(edit: I'm not sure how this squares with our Texas executive orders which says such mandates are illegal - but given our facility is a State run facility - I'm feeling I'm on safe ground. And I fully plan on looking for philosophical and religious exemptions etc.)

Since when did they have the power to arbitrarily and unilaterally rewrite your contract of employment?

No idea. But then since when did the President have the power to unilaterally mandate medical procedures to the citizenry? Apparently it seems to be a thing.

I have no idea where this is going.
Check out Austria for starters.

Not to engage in whataboutism but Latvia is even scarier than Austria/Germany.  Duly elected politicians are being barred from participating in their "democracy" if they aren't vaccinated.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: dkabq on November 17, 2021, 09:31:29 PM
My facility has officially put notice to all of its employees we have until Dec. 8th to get vaccinated. January 4th to be fully vaccinated (so I assume boosters +?)

I just got out of my meeting with my VP and Director - and let them know as someone with natural immunity, I refuse.

So...

We'll see what happens.

(edit: I'm not sure how this squares with our Texas executive orders which says such mandates are illegal - but given our facility is a State run facility - I'm feeling I'm on safe ground. And I fully plan on looking for philosophical and religious exemptions etc.)

Since when did they have the power to arbitrarily and unilaterally rewrite your contract of employment?

No idea. But then since when did the President have the power to unilaterally mandate medical procedures to the citizenry? Apparently it seems to be a thing.

I have no idea where this is going.
Check out Austria for starters.

Not to engage in whataboutism but Latvia is even scarier than Austria/Germany.  Duly elected politicians are being barred from participating in their "democracy" if they aren't vaccinated.

Sounds like Canada.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on November 17, 2021, 10:12:55 PM
It is a brilliant idea, you have to admit. If you can't beat an opposition party in a fair election, then just require them to do something they find morally objectionable, and then ban their politicians when they refuse. Why didn't anybody think of this before? It's democracy, except on the right side of history
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Shasarak on November 17, 2021, 10:48:27 PM
Not to engage in whataboutism but Latvia is even scarier than Austria/Germany.  Duly elected politicians are being barred from participating in their "democracy" if they aren't vaccinated.

I always thought that Doctor Doom was firm but fair in ruling his "democracy"
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: KingCheops on November 17, 2021, 10:59:21 PM
Not to engage in whataboutism but Latvia is even scarier than Austria/Germany.  Duly elected politicians are being barred from participating in their "democracy" if they aren't vaccinated.

I always thought that Doctor Doom was firm but fair in ruling his "democracy"

Hey the trains ran on time in Latveria assuming those a-holes in the Fantastic Four or the Avengers weren't running roughshod through the country.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: KingCheops on November 17, 2021, 10:59:47 PM
My facility has officially put notice to all of its employees we have until Dec. 8th to get vaccinated. January 4th to be fully vaccinated (so I assume boosters +?)

I just got out of my meeting with my VP and Director - and let them know as someone with natural immunity, I refuse.

So...

We'll see what happens.

(edit: I'm not sure how this squares with our Texas executive orders which says such mandates are illegal - but given our facility is a State run facility - I'm feeling I'm on safe ground. And I fully plan on looking for philosophical and religious exemptions etc.)

Since when did they have the power to arbitrarily and unilaterally rewrite your contract of employment?

No idea. But then since when did the President have the power to unilaterally mandate medical procedures to the citizenry? Apparently it seems to be a thing.

I have no idea where this is going.
Check out Austria for starters.

Not to engage in whataboutism but Latvia is even scarier than Austria/Germany.  Duly elected politicians are being barred from participating in their "democracy" if they aren't vaccinated.

Sounds like Canada.

Canada is far scarier.  We aren't as draconian as some places but when the gloves finally come off we'll skip all these intermediate steps and go straight to the Bill Gates AI Overlord brain in a jar.  "Oh shit we're running behind in Building Back Better eh!  Let's just skip the slow roll-back of rights and human dignity and plug everyone straight into the Metaverse immediately you hosers!"
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on November 18, 2021, 04:13:30 PM
100% of Gibraltar's adult population is double-jabbed. They've had mask mandates for over a year. They're entering another lockdown, because neither of those measures do a fucking thing.

Or more accurately, the jabs cause the outbreaks. Vaccines cause variants, which is precisely what plenty of immunologists warned last year.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on November 18, 2021, 06:45:29 PM
Czech Republic and Italy now rumoured to be considering lockdowns only for the unjabbed.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: dkabq on November 19, 2021, 06:25:45 AM
So does this settle the issue of the lack of efficacy of the covid vaccine with respect to transmission?
https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/national/christmas-cancelled-in-worlds-most-vaxxed-place-after-exponential-rise-in-covid-cases/ar-AAQQ57t

Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on November 19, 2021, 06:29:46 AM
All-cause mortality increased by 23.5% in the jabbed, compared to the unjabbed: https://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/317091

Does that show that it's working? I'm sure we can get to the bottom of all of this when Pfizer releases all it's trial data - oh no, they don't have to do that until 2076.

I note it didn't take Austria long to move from "nudge" to outright tyranny. Not content with locking down the unjabbed to coerce them into getting jabbed (they've since decided to just lock everyone down), they're now making jabs mandatory from February 2022. See the direction of travel.

I note all our jab-boosters have been conspicuously absent lately. Too many "conspiracy theories" proving to be fact for your liking?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Zelen on November 19, 2021, 09:29:53 AM
I note all our jab-boosters have been conspicuously absent lately. Too many "conspiracy theories" proving to be fact for your liking?

You're expecting too much. Once you've talked yourself into a position where your self-identity is wrapped up in the injections, you're a collaborator and will gladly be loading up train carts.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on November 19, 2021, 10:03:02 AM
So does this settle the issue of the lack of efficacy of the covid vaccine with respect to transmission?
https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/national/christmas-cancelled-in-worlds-most-vaxxed-place-after-exponential-rise-in-covid-cases/ar-AAQQ57t
It demonstrates waning immunity, not lack of efficacy.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on November 19, 2021, 10:29:31 AM
It demonstrates waning immunity, not lack of efficacy.

The jabs don't stop you getting the virus, there was never any "immunity" in the first place.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: 3catcircus on November 19, 2021, 10:43:45 AM
So does this settle the issue of the lack of efficacy of the covid vaccine with respect to transmission?
https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/national/christmas-cancelled-in-worlds-most-vaxxed-place-after-exponential-rise-in-covid-cases/ar-AAQQ57t
It demonstrates waning immunity, not lack of efficacy.

Actually, it's both.  We have no idea how efficacious they are because we have no long term data.  For comparison, the annual flu vaccines are, on average, 40% efficacious, with the highest efficacy in the last 10 years being ~ 60%.

So - we have a vaccine with unknown efficacy that provides immunity that wanes within 6 months.    This was never about preventing the spread of COVID - it's always been health theater to an extent mixed with a reduction in the seriousness of symptoms.  It's essentially Theraflu for COVID.

Given that many virologists warned of the likelihood of such a rapid deployment of a non-sterilizing vaccine causing variants, we're never going to get out of this mess unless we cease trying to vaccinate everyone every 6 months.  Let nature run it's course.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on November 19, 2021, 10:51:18 AM
Given that many virologists warned of the likelihood of such a rapid deployment of a non-sterilizing vaccine causing variants, we're never going to get out of this mess unless we cease trying to vaccinate everyone every 6 months.  Let nature run it's course.

No profit in that option, nor does it allow the authoritarians to impose a Chinese-style Social Credit system, so it's a non-starter.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Zelen on November 19, 2021, 11:05:18 AM
The statistical data was always manipulated to maximize the "Vaccine Efficacy" metric, irrespective of actual real world effectiveness. Real world effectiveness was probably never north of 60%, but it's very easy to manipulate the statistics to achieve big headline numbers.

What we're seeing globally is that even the real-world 60% figure is failing. Vaccine effectiveness against infection is negative for those who are longer than 6 months out, and the effectiveness against severe outcome is dropping in the same way, just 2-3 months behind.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on November 19, 2021, 05:54:21 PM
Now the Czech Republic has a "lockdown only for the unjabbed" to coerce them into getting jabbed. Almost as though these activities are co-ordinated...
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: 3catcircus on November 19, 2021, 06:10:52 PM
Now the Czech Republic has a "lockdown only for the unjabbed" to coerce them into getting jabbed. Almost as though these activities are co-ordinated...

It'll turn into a lockdown for everyone - they're a few days behind Austria.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on November 19, 2021, 06:23:14 PM
It'll turn into a lockdown for everyone - they're a few days behind Austria.

Possibly, but in the space of 24 hours they've gone from "considering" it to imposing it.

Meanwhile in Rotterdam, anti-lockdown protests have turned violent. Perhaps people are waking up to this shit and where it's going.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Zelen on November 19, 2021, 07:26:11 PM
We have a year of experience with lockdowns, and it demonstrates quite well that universal lockdowns don't work and cause massive downstream problems. Every politician or bureaucrat promoting them should be to be publicly quartered.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: dkabq on November 22, 2021, 09:06:34 PM
St. Fauci's pronouncement on vaccination frequency:
https://youtu.be/6P_S8WnnOhI?t=156

You're all going to love getting a covid vaccine every 6 to 12 months for the rest of your lives.

And on vaccinating children:
https://youtu.be/6P_S8WnnOhI?t=272

Why?!? In the US, as of 2021-11-17, there have been 605 covid deaths to those 0-17 years. Putting your kid in a car is more dangerous that covid.

And on Thanksgiving:
https://youtu.be/krnEWyZGM_Q?t=368

If being vaccinated is sufficient, then why the fuck am I forced to wear a mask.




Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on November 23, 2021, 05:44:21 PM
We're on our third jab in 11 months in the UK, every 6-12 months is insufficient. It's more like every 4-6 months - look at Israel.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on November 23, 2021, 06:29:16 PM
I've already refused the vax. I have natural immunity.

If they imprison me, they will only make me more powerful than they can know.

(in truth my team handles all the medical and financial data of our regions primary medical research facility which includes Covid. If any of us go to jail over this - people will definitely die, since we supply day-to-day needs of surgeons, doctors and clinical staff.)

But I'm in TX, thankfully our Governor is flipping the finger at Biden. My facility is the largest medical research hospital in Dallas and we're bursting at the seams with (as of 11:38PM tonight) NINE whole cases of Covid in our multi-thousand beds across six hospitals. 7 are non-ICU.

Our nineteen thousand clinical staff that deals directly with Covid patients in research and care, have totaled only 30 cases in the last month and a half. There are ZERO people scheduled for testing tomorrow - in a city of well over a million people, at a centrally located super-facility.

The fear-mongering by people on the left on behalf of the authoritarians is more scary than Covid itself.

I am pretty frustrated that natural immunity has become some stupid political football as opposed to important data that can be used to help reduce the spread of this disease, reduce infections, hospitalizations, ICU use, and deaths. It's as important or more important than confirming someone has been partially or fully vaccinated or boosted. But we seem to be ignoring it in many areas of data collection.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: 3catcircus on November 23, 2021, 06:52:43 PM
I've already refused the vax. I have natural immunity.

If they imprison me, they will only make me more powerful than they can know.

(in truth my team handles all the medical and financial data of our regions primary medical research facility which includes Covid. If any of us go to jail over this - people will definitely die, since we supply day-to-day needs of surgeons, doctors and clinical staff.)

But I'm in TX, thankfully our Governor is flipping the finger at Biden. My facility is the largest medical research hospital in Dallas and we're bursting at the seams with (as of 11:38PM tonight) NINE whole cases of Covid in our multi-thousand beds across six hospitals. 7 are non-ICU.

Our nineteen thousand clinical staff that deals directly with Covid patients in research and care, have totaled only 30 cases in the last month and a half. There are ZERO people scheduled for testing tomorrow - in a city of well over a million people, at a centrally located super-facility.

The fear-mongering by people on the left on behalf of the authoritarians is more scary than Covid itself.

I am pretty frustrated that natural immunity has become some stupid political football as opposed to important data that can be used to help reduce the spread of this disease, reduce infections, hospitalizations, ICU use, and deaths. It's as important or more important than confirming someone has been partially or fully vaccinated or boosted. But we seem to be ignoring it in many areas of data collection.

Because there is no money to be made in natural immunity.  Natural immunity is *better* than being vaccinated because the body is exposed to *all* of the COVID proteins and can mount a defense in the future even as the spike proteins mutate, rendering vaccines ineffective.  Of course, there are a few vaccines being trialed that don't just rely on spike proteins in an mRNA delivery vehicle - but they have been backburnered.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on November 24, 2021, 04:16:21 AM
I am pretty frustrated that natural immunity has become some stupid political football as opposed to important data that can be used to help reduce the spread of this disease, reduce infections, hospitalizations, ICU use, and deaths. It's as important or more important than confirming someone has been partially or fully vaccinated or boosted. But we seem to be ignoring it in many areas of data collection.

I guess you missed the "redefinition" of herd immunity last year to remove natural immunity. That only comes from vaccines now, comrade.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ep_8QJXXMAI9I-E?format=jpg&name=large)

Of course we also redefined "vaccine" to include useless therapeutic treatments that don't even provide genuine immunity. But keep jabbing!
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ghostmaker on November 24, 2021, 12:16:11 PM
https://www.zerohedge.com/covid-19/australian-army-begins-transferring-covid-positive-cases-contacts-quarantine-camps

"Oh no, there won't be any camps."

I am shocked. Shocked. Well, not that shocked.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on November 24, 2021, 01:56:52 PM
https://www.zerohedge.com/covid-19/australian-army-begins-transferring-covid-positive-cases-contacts-quarantine-camps

"Oh no, there won't be any camps."

I am shocked. Shocked. Well, not that shocked.

Forced vaccination of aborigines in the Northern Territories, as well.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on November 24, 2021, 03:15:27 PM
One year of covid jabs compared to 53 years of flu jabs:

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FEzO4tZXsAcPZn2?format=jpg&name=large)

This is normal...

The flu jab may be pointless, but at least it's relatively harmless. The same can't be said of the clotshot.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on November 24, 2021, 05:15:49 PM
Remember, Vaccines make it worse...right?

(https://i.ibb.co/ZTRNC5b/image.png)
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: dkabq on November 24, 2021, 08:24:06 PM
Interesting...

The data set looks to have two different subsets (>75% vaccinated and =< 75% vaccinated). And I think that the latter subset consists of the poorer EU countries. Makes me wonder what other predictor variables (per capita income, median number of comorbidities, median age, etc.) ought to be accounted for.

To put the numbers in perspective, in the US ~34K/yr people die of the flu (average of the estimates for the past 10 years) . With a population of ~330M, that works out to an annual ~103 deaths/M. Divide that by 26 (approx. number of 14-day periods in a year) and you get a 14-day average of 3.9 deaths/M. However, flu season is notionally only in "cold months"; let's assume that it is ~6 months (1/2 year). That puts the 14-day average at 7.8 deaths/M.

For the >75% vaccinated countries, the average of the 14-day average is 10.6 deaths/M, with a median of 9.5 deaths/M.

For the =< 75% vaccinated countries the average of the 14-day average is 127 deaths/M, with a median of 75 deaths/M.

Also, in the US, the average annual number of deaths in automobile accidents is ~35K/yr.

Let me know if you find a conceptual or math error.

Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: dkabq on November 25, 2021, 07:59:52 AM
WHO says fully vaccinated should wear masks and physically distance as Covid infections surge:
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/11/24/who-tells-fully-vaccinated-to-wear-masks-physically-distance-as-infections-surge.html

Is there a vaccine that is more crap-tastic than the covid vaccine? Doesn't stop you from catching or spreading the virus and you have to get a booster shot every six months.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ghostmaker on November 25, 2021, 09:32:25 AM
Oh dear.

https://www.wsmv.com/news/health/vanderbilt-researchers-study-ivermectin-as-possible-covid-19-treatment/article_9a2e5bea-4d79-11ec-b4be-a3da0ade9ff3.html

Horse dewormer, huh?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Trinculoisdead on November 25, 2021, 11:42:04 AM
 ;D ;D ;D Imagine taking horse paste, HAHAHA
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on November 25, 2021, 05:20:39 PM
Oh dear.

https://www.wsmv.com/news/health/vanderbilt-researchers-study-ivermectin-as-possible-covid-19-treatment/article_9a2e5bea-4d79-11ec-b4be-a3da0ade9ff3.html

Horse dewormer, huh?

That "horse dewormer" claim was always infuriating. Motherfuckers, that is a nobel prize winning HUMAN medication which the entire medical community has praised for many years. If some idiots took an animal version, that isn't an indictment of the human version which most people were taking.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on November 25, 2021, 05:25:20 PM
Oh dear.

https://www.wsmv.com/news/health/vanderbilt-researchers-study-ivermectin-as-possible-covid-19-treatment/article_9a2e5bea-4d79-11ec-b4be-a3da0ade9ff3.html

Horse dewormer, huh?

That "horse dewormer" claim was always infuriating. Motherfuckers, that is a nobel prize winning HUMAN medication which the entire medical community has praised for many years. If some idiots took an animal version, that isn't an indictment of the human version which most people were taking.
The horse dewormer bit is just exaggeration of the dumbest possible way to bend the news, which is not all different from what the antivaxxers do. In both cases, it's just fools being fools. It's like listening to professional wrestling and then commenting that only one wrestler is outrageously fake.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Shasarak on November 25, 2021, 06:31:44 PM
The horse dewormer bit is just exaggeration of the dumbest possible way to bend the news, which is not all different from what the antivaxxers do. In both cases, it's just fools being fools. It's like listening to professional wrestling and then commenting that only one wrestler is outrageously fake.

You mean that you can have some actors that act badly and some that act goodly?

Thats unpossible!
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on November 25, 2021, 06:56:59 PM
Oh dear.

https://www.wsmv.com/news/health/vanderbilt-researchers-study-ivermectin-as-possible-covid-19-treatment/article_9a2e5bea-4d79-11ec-b4be-a3da0ade9ff3.html

Horse dewormer, huh?

That "horse dewormer" claim was always infuriating. Motherfuckers, that is a nobel prize winning HUMAN medication which the entire medical community has praised for many years. If some idiots took an animal version, that isn't an indictment of the human version which most people were taking.
The horse dewormer bit is just exaggeration of the dumbest possible way to bend the news, which is not all different from what the antivaxxers do. In both cases, it's just fools being fools. It's like listening to professional wrestling and then commenting that only one wrestler is outrageously fake.

Agreed, and note I call out the anti-vaxxers here as well.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on November 25, 2021, 10:14:59 PM
Oh dear.

https://www.wsmv.com/news/health/vanderbilt-researchers-study-ivermectin-as-possible-covid-19-treatment/article_9a2e5bea-4d79-11ec-b4be-a3da0ade9ff3.html

Horse dewormer, huh?

That "horse dewormer" claim was always infuriating. Motherfuckers, that is a nobel prize winning HUMAN medication which the entire medical community has praised for many years. If some idiots took an animal version, that isn't an indictment of the human version which most people were taking.
The horse dewormer bit is just exaggeration of the dumbest possible way to bend the news, which is not all different from what the antivaxxers do.
You mean like calling people antivaxxers?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on November 25, 2021, 11:20:11 PM
Oh dear.

https://www.wsmv.com/news/health/vanderbilt-researchers-study-ivermectin-as-possible-covid-19-treatment/article_9a2e5bea-4d79-11ec-b4be-a3da0ade9ff3.html

Horse dewormer, huh?

That "horse dewormer" claim was always infuriating. Motherfuckers, that is a nobel prize winning HUMAN medication which the entire medical community has praised for many years. If some idiots took an animal version, that isn't an indictment of the human version which most people were taking.
The horse dewormer bit is just exaggeration of the dumbest possible way to bend the news, which is not all different from what the antivaxxers do.
You mean like calling people antivaxxers?
What do you call the idiots that believe that the vaccines causes Covid?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on November 26, 2021, 03:45:39 AM
Oh dear.

https://www.wsmv.com/news/health/vanderbilt-researchers-study-ivermectin-as-possible-covid-19-treatment/article_9a2e5bea-4d79-11ec-b4be-a3da0ade9ff3.html

Horse dewormer, huh?

That "horse dewormer" claim was always infuriating. Motherfuckers, that is a nobel prize winning HUMAN medication which the entire medical community has praised for many years. If some idiots took an animal version, that isn't an indictment of the human version which most people were taking.
The horse dewormer bit is just exaggeration of the dumbest possible way to bend the news, which is not all different from what the antivaxxers do.
You mean like calling people antivaxxers?
What do you call the idiots that believe that the vaccines causes Covid?
That's not how anyone uses the term antiva... oh, that's yet another dumbest possible exaggeration isn't it! You're good at this!
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on November 26, 2021, 05:56:32 AM
What do you call the idiots that believe that the vaccines causes Covid?

You mean the people observing that all the "fully vaccinated*" people seem to be experiencing recurrent covid infections, meanwhile "unvaccinated" people like me don't get ill (despite taking no precautions whatsoever)?

In this country covid is an infection of the "vaccinated" nowadays. Especially at the hospitalisation and death end of the spectrum.



*Is that people who've had two, three or four jabs? I struggle to keep up.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on November 26, 2021, 06:21:25 AM
Well isn't this a surprise, the coincidentally timed "new mutant variant" discovered in Botswana actually came from "fully vaccinated" travellers:

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FFHDF2gX0Aw0XBP?format=jpg&name=large)

Almost as though it evolved in response to the jabs. Glad my immunity comes from a superior source (ie recovery from infection).
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ghostmaker on November 26, 2021, 06:28:56 AM
"Just two weeks to flatten the curve."

More like:

"Don't forget, you're here forever."
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on November 26, 2021, 08:39:16 AM
Oh dear.

https://www.wsmv.com/news/health/vanderbilt-researchers-study-ivermectin-as-possible-covid-19-treatment/article_9a2e5bea-4d79-11ec-b4be-a3da0ade9ff3.html

Horse dewormer, huh?

That "horse dewormer" claim was always infuriating. Motherfuckers, that is a nobel prize winning HUMAN medication which the entire medical community has praised for many years. If some idiots took an animal version, that isn't an indictment of the human version which most people were taking.
The horse dewormer bit is just exaggeration of the dumbest possible way to bend the news, which is not all different from what the antivaxxers do.
You mean like calling people antivaxxers?
What do you call the idiots that believe that the vaccines causes Covid?
That's not how anyone uses the term antiva... oh, that's yet another dumbest possible exaggeration isn't it! You're good at this!
I see you didn't answer the question.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on November 26, 2021, 08:49:29 AM
Oh dear.

https://www.wsmv.com/news/health/vanderbilt-researchers-study-ivermectin-as-possible-covid-19-treatment/article_9a2e5bea-4d79-11ec-b4be-a3da0ade9ff3.html

Horse dewormer, huh?

That "horse dewormer" claim was always infuriating. Motherfuckers, that is a nobel prize winning HUMAN medication which the entire medical community has praised for many years. If some idiots took an animal version, that isn't an indictment of the human version which most people were taking.
The horse dewormer bit is just exaggeration of the dumbest possible way to bend the news, which is not all different from what the antivaxxers do.
You mean like calling people antivaxxers?
What do you call the idiots that believe that the vaccines causes Covid?
That's not how anyone uses the term antiva... oh, that's yet another dumbest possible exaggeration isn't it! You're good at this!
I see you didn't answer the question.
You didn't answer my question first.

And I've literally never heard someone say the vaccines cause covid, so it seems silly to come up with a name for a group whose membership = 0.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on November 26, 2021, 08:54:50 AM
Oh dear.

https://www.wsmv.com/news/health/vanderbilt-researchers-study-ivermectin-as-possible-covid-19-treatment/article_9a2e5bea-4d79-11ec-b4be-a3da0ade9ff3.html

Horse dewormer, huh?

That "horse dewormer" claim was always infuriating. Motherfuckers, that is a nobel prize winning HUMAN medication which the entire medical community has praised for many years. If some idiots took an animal version, that isn't an indictment of the human version which most people were taking.
The horse dewormer bit is just exaggeration of the dumbest possible way to bend the news, which is not all different from what the antivaxxers do.
You mean like calling people antivaxxers?
What do you call the idiots that believe that the vaccines causes Covid?
That's not how anyone uses the term antiva... oh, that's yet another dumbest possible exaggeration isn't it! You're good at this!
I see you didn't answer the question.
You didn't answer my question first.

And I've literally never heard someone say the vaccines cause covid, so it seems silly to come up with a name for a group whose membership = 0.
Do you not see Kiero's posts? I never said you'd hear it spoken, but the fool believes the vaccine causes Covid and he's quite vocal about.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on November 26, 2021, 08:57:23 AM
Oh dear.

https://www.wsmv.com/news/health/vanderbilt-researchers-study-ivermectin-as-possible-covid-19-treatment/article_9a2e5bea-4d79-11ec-b4be-a3da0ade9ff3.html

Horse dewormer, huh?

That "horse dewormer" claim was always infuriating. Motherfuckers, that is a nobel prize winning HUMAN medication which the entire medical community has praised for many years. If some idiots took an animal version, that isn't an indictment of the human version which most people were taking.
The horse dewormer bit is just exaggeration of the dumbest possible way to bend the news, which is not all different from what the antivaxxers do.
You mean like calling people antivaxxers?
What do you call the idiots that believe that the vaccines causes Covid?
That's not how anyone uses the term antiva... oh, that's yet another dumbest possible exaggeration isn't it! You're good at this!
I see you didn't answer the question.
You didn't answer my question first.

And I've literally never heard someone say the vaccines cause covid, so it seems silly to come up with a name for a group whose membership = 0.
Do you not see Kiero's posts? I never said you'd hear it spoken, but the fool believes the vaccine causes Covid and he's quite vocal about.
This is another one of those exaggerations in the dumbest possible way to bend the news, isn't it?

I thought for a second you were being serious again. Brilliant!
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: dkabq on November 26, 2021, 08:59:09 AM
Oh dear.

https://www.wsmv.com/news/health/vanderbilt-researchers-study-ivermectin-as-possible-covid-19-treatment/article_9a2e5bea-4d79-11ec-b4be-a3da0ade9ff3.html

Horse dewormer, huh?

That "horse dewormer" claim was always infuriating. Motherfuckers, that is a nobel prize winning HUMAN medication which the entire medical community has praised for many years. If some idiots took an animal version, that isn't an indictment of the human version which most people were taking.
The horse dewormer bit is just exaggeration of the dumbest possible way to bend the news, which is not all different from what the antivaxxers do.
You mean like calling people antivaxxers?
What do you call the idiots that believe that the vaccines causes Covid?
That's not how anyone uses the term antiva... oh, that's yet another dumbest possible exaggeration isn't it! You're good at this!
I see you didn't answer the question.

I'll take a stab at it.

"Anti-vaxxer" is an overloaded term. Pre covid, it notionally referred to people that were against vaccination in general. As the technical basis for that stance had been disproven (e.g., vaccines cause autism) it carries a social stigma (e.g., wackadoo, tin-foil hat wearer).

Now, that same term is used to label anyone, who for whatever reason, does not want to take the covid vaccine. Some of those reasons (e.g., the vax contains tracking devices, it makes you magnetic) do seem to be in the tin-foil hat wearer bin. However, other reasons (e.g., I have natural immunity from already having covid, questions regarding the process, objections to the government forcing you to take a medication) are also lumped into the tin-foil hat wearer bin.

It is the same reason that ivermectin is smeared as a "horse dewormer".

I believe that it is an example of the Equivocation Fallacy.

Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on November 26, 2021, 09:06:49 AM
Do you not see Kiero's posts? I never said you'd hear it spoken, but the fool believes the vaccine causes Covid and he's quite vocal about.

It's not a vaccine, because it doesn't provide immunity. The hint is in the way people who've been jabbed get covid again and again.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on November 26, 2021, 09:27:38 AM
Do you not see Kiero's posts? I never said you'd hear it spoken, but the fool believes the vaccine causes Covid and he's quite vocal about.

It's not a vaccine, because it doesn't provide immunity. The hint is in the way people who've been jabbed get covid again and again.
Not even the measles vaccine provides complete immunity. That's not a defining characteristic of a vaccine. Though it's true that the covid vaccines seem to be considerably less effective than the initial claims, and their effectiveness seem to decay faster than francium.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on November 26, 2021, 09:31:36 AM
Not even the measles vaccine provides complete immunity. That's not a defining characteristic of a vaccine. Though it's true that the covid vaccines seem to be considerably less effective than the initial claims, and their effectiveness seem to decay faster than francium.

The fact that a tiny number of outliers have immune systems that the measles vaccine doesn't take, is a completely different situation to the covid jabs that don't stop anyone contracting the virus.

Supposedly "fully vacinated" people have had covid more than I have.

We could go on through lots of other infections where vaccination (or recovery) provide actual immunity. Take varicella, which in the US they unnecessarily vaccinate for. I had chicken pox when I was a child. I have never had it since, not even when each of my children got chicken pox in their turn (none of the older ones were reinfected when the younger ones had it, either).
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: dkabq on November 26, 2021, 09:37:07 AM
Do you not see Kiero's posts? I never said you'd hear it spoken, but the fool believes the vaccine causes Covid and he's quite vocal about.

It's not a vaccine, because it doesn't provide immunity. The hint is in the way people who've been jabbed get covid again and again.

For those in whom it is effective, does the flu vaccine provide immunity?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on November 26, 2021, 09:39:53 AM
For those in whom it is effective, does the flu vaccine provide immunity?

No, because that isn't a vaccine either. There are two jabs that aren't vaccines: covid and flu.

Neither provides actual immunity, as in preventing you becoming infected. Instead they invented this bullshit notion of "reduces your symptoms", which isn't immunity and can't actually be measured.

That's a therapeutic treatment.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on November 26, 2021, 09:43:50 AM
Not even the measles vaccine provides complete immunity. That's not a defining characteristic of a vaccine. Though it's true that the covid vaccines seem to be considerably less effective than the initial claims, and their effectiveness seem to decay faster than francium.

The fact that a tiny number of outliers have immune systems that the measles vaccine doesn't take, is a completely different situation to the covid jabs that don't stop anyone contracting the virus.

Supposedly "fully vacinated" people have had covid more than I have.
Flip a coin a million times. You'll get strings of 5 heads in a row. Roll a d6 a million times. You'll get strings of five 1s in a row.

Both results are expected. Similarly, it falls within normal expectations that there will be both vaccinated and unvaccinated people who catch the disease multiple times.

You're focusing on absolute states and individual cases, when this is a matter of statistics. There is evidence that the vaccines reduce the chance of hospitalization for severe symptoms, for instance. They're a lot less effective than initial reports, the effectiveness wanes like a Kryptonian under a red sun, there are real side effects that may outweight the benefits in low risk groups like pretty much everyone who doesn't have gray hair, and we don't know the long term consequences. But they are vaccines, and they do have some effect on the disease.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on November 26, 2021, 09:57:50 AM
Flip a coin a million times. You'll get strings of 5 heads in a row. Roll a d6 a million times. You'll get strings of five 1s in a row.

Both results are expected. Similarly, it falls within normal expectations that there will be both vaccinated and unvaccinated people who catch the disease multiple times.

You're focusing on absolute states and individual cases, when this is a matter of statistics. There is evidence that the vaccines reduce the chance of hospitalization for severe symptoms, for instance. They're a lot less effective than initial reports, the effectiveness wanes like a Kryptonian under a red sun, there are real side effects that may outweight the benefits in low risk groups like pretty much everyone who doesn't have gray hair, and we don't know the long term consequences. But they are vaccines, and they do have some effect on the disease.

No. If covid vaccines actually provided immunity, like the measles vaccine does, none of those people (or at least no more than a tiny minority) would be getting reinfected. Every few years we have a breakout of measles where the overall level of vaccination/recovery has dropped below herd immunity level, but it doesn't rip across the entire population. Because that vaccine provides immunity to infection.

The covid jabs do not stop people getting infected, ergo they are not a vaccine. That's why the infections carry on washing around the place and UK hospitals are full of "fully vaccinated" people being treated for and dying with covid. That's why Gibraltar, with 100% vaccination of it's adult population, is suffering another outbreak.

All the jabs have succeeded in doing is keeping the level of infection up right through the summer, which was traditionally a time it waned. Great job.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: dkabq on November 26, 2021, 10:06:32 AM
I respectfully disagree.

My understanding is that while a vaccine may not be 100% effective, when it is effective, it prevents infection. For example:

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20392713/
"...that the vaccine is highly effective in preventing infection (VE(S) = 0.997, 95% credible interval: 0.993-0.999)"

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33805681/
"The prevalence of individuals with vaccine-induced measles immunity in the target measles vaccination population was 88.1%"

If the covid vaccines are not preventing infection, then I have to agree that they are not vaccines, but are therapeutics. Moreover, it also begs the question of whether, between a waning efficacy and it not preventing infection, can herd immunity ever be achieved (one of the reasons given for forcing people to get vaccinated).
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on November 26, 2021, 10:07:23 AM
For those in whom it is effective, does the flu vaccine provide immunity?

No, because that isn't a vaccine either. There are two jabs that aren't vaccines: covid and flu.

Neither provides actual immunity, as in preventing you becoming infected. Instead they invented this bullshit notion of "reduces your symptoms", which isn't immunity and can't actually be measured.

That's a therapeutic treatment.
With your bullshit criteria, the list of exceptions will just keep growing. What about the tetanus vaccine? It consists of multiple shots and boosters (typically at least every 10 years)? Meningococcal vaccine is typically repeated every 5 years.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: dkabq on November 26, 2021, 10:24:30 AM
For those in whom it is effective, does the flu vaccine provide immunity?

No, because that isn't a vaccine either. There are two jabs that aren't vaccines: covid and flu.

Neither provides actual immunity, as in preventing you becoming infected. Instead they invented this bullshit notion of "reduces your symptoms", which isn't immunity and can't actually be measured.

That's a therapeutic treatment.
With your bullshit criteria, the list of exceptions will just keep growing. What about the tetanus vaccine? It consists of multiple shots and boosters (typically at least every 10 years)? Meningococcal vaccine is typically repeated every 5 years.

Valid point. Not all vaccines are one-shot and done. However, there is a significant difference between getting a booster every 5 years vs every 6 months.

I learned something new today. Vaccine efficacy and vaccine effectiveness are not synonymous (except in the case where anyone exposed contracts the virus).
https://www.who.int/news-room/feature-stories/detail/vaccine-efficacy-effectiveness-and-protection

I accept the published (initial) efficacy rates for the covid vaccines. But given that we are also being told that fully-vaccinated people can spread the virus such that we have to wear masks, it appears that the efficacy reduces rapidly -- much more so than for any vaccine other than the flu (please provide examples to the contrary if you know of them).
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on November 26, 2021, 10:55:18 AM
With your bullshit criteria, the list of exceptions will just keep growing. What about the tetanus vaccine? It consists of multiple shots and boosters (typically at least every 10 years)? Meningococcal vaccine is typically repeated every 5 years.

No, you fucking moron, it's the same as I've said all along. The covid jab isn't a vaccine and it uses the same bullshit made-up notion of "immunity" as the flu jab before it did.

It's got nothing to do with repetition, tetanus actually makes you immune to infection. The meningitis vaccine similarly makes you immune to infection. Note the recurring theme?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on November 26, 2021, 11:00:45 AM
I respectfully disagree.

My understanding is that while a vaccine may not be 100% effective, when it is effective, it prevents infection. For example:

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20392713/
"...that the vaccine is highly effective in preventing infection (VE(S) = 0.997, 95% credible interval: 0.993-0.999)"

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33805681/
"The prevalence of individuals with vaccine-induced measles immunity in the target measles vaccination population was 88.1%"

Sorry, no, those "effectiveness" figures are bullshit relative risk reduction numbers. The actual risk reduction figures, in the manufacturers own data, is around 1%. They do not stop people contracting coronavirus, and therefore have fuck all impact on transmission.

If the covid vaccines are not preventing infection, then I have to agree that they are not vaccines, but are therapeutics. Moreover, it also begs the question of whether, between a waning efficacy and it not preventing infection, can herd immunity ever be achieved (one of the reasons given for forcing people to get vaccinated).

There's no "if" about it, covid jabs categorically do not prevent infection. They even admit it in public.

Here's my own Prime Minster saying so: https://dailysceptic.org/2021/10/24/boris-admits-the-vaccine-doesnt-protect-you-against-catching-the-disease-and-it-doesnt-protect-you-against-passing-it-on/

Herd immunity can be achieved through infection and recovery providing natural immunity. Same as we always have for coronaviruses and flu. Which was indeed happening, until someone decided to roll out a leaky therapeutic treatment that destroys people's immune systems and primes them to ignore an old strain.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on November 26, 2021, 11:10:25 AM
If the covid vaccines are not preventing infection, then I have to agree that they are not vaccines, but are therapeutics. Moreover, it also begs the question of whether, between a waning efficacy and it not preventing infection, can herd immunity ever be achieved (one of the reasons given for forcing people to get vaccinated).
They're vaccines, just not extraordinarily effective ones.

And we've already reached herd immunity. This is what it looks like. There will never be a miraculous point at which the disease suddenly dies off. The latest coronavirus has become endemic, part of the background of seasonal diseases we catch and develop resistance to in waves, then outbreaks flare again each new season as resistance wanes over time.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on November 26, 2021, 11:10:29 AM
The "Botswana" scariant might ignore your jabs, says Pfizer (as though the Delta/Indian doesn't already do that):

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FFIK19xXEAIAQ8Q?format=jpg&name=large)

Not to worry, within 100 days they'll have a new round of "boosters" for you!
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on November 26, 2021, 11:12:45 AM
Oh dear.

https://www.wsmv.com/news/health/vanderbilt-researchers-study-ivermectin-as-possible-covid-19-treatment/article_9a2e5bea-4d79-11ec-b4be-a3da0ade9ff3.html

Horse dewormer, huh?

That "horse dewormer" claim was always infuriating. Motherfuckers, that is a nobel prize winning HUMAN medication which the entire medical community has praised for many years. If some idiots took an animal version, that isn't an indictment of the human version which most people were taking.
The horse dewormer bit is just exaggeration of the dumbest possible way to bend the news, which is not all different from what the antivaxxers do.
You mean like calling people antivaxxers?
What do you call the idiots that believe that the vaccines causes Covid?
That's not how anyone uses the term antiva... oh, that's yet another dumbest possible exaggeration isn't it! You're good at this!

Pat, I truly don't know how you can willfully ignore the things Kiero is saying in this thread. He's referring specifically to completely not exaggerated things Kiero said right here. And when we call him an idiot for it you defend him. You reap what you sow mate. If you are going to continue to defend those kinds of comments from the dumbest poster here, you don't get to call other people out as dumb for "exaggerating" something they're almost directly quoting.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on November 26, 2021, 11:13:18 AM
They're vaccines, just not extraordinarily effective ones.

And we've already reached herd immunity. This is what it looks like. There will never be a miraculous point at which the disease suddenly dies off. The latest coronavirus has become endemic, part of the background of seasonal diseases we catch and develop resistance to in waves, then outbreaks flare again each new season as resistance wanes over time.

They're not vaccines, because they don't provide immunity from infection. This is a very simple definitional point.

We had reached herd immunity, until people started getting jabbed. Did you not notice the way the virus failed to recede in summer 2021 to the same degree that it did in summer 2020? That's new, and it's exactly the sort of thing virologists were warning about in trying to vaccinate your way out of an outbreak.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: dkabq on November 26, 2021, 11:13:35 AM
I respectfully disagree.

My understanding is that while a vaccine may not be 100% effective, when it is effective, it prevents infection. For example:

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20392713/
"...that the vaccine is highly effective in preventing infection (VE(S) = 0.997, 95% credible interval: 0.993-0.999)"

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33805681/
"The prevalence of individuals with vaccine-induced measles immunity in the target measles vaccination population was 88.1%"

Sorry, no, those "effectiveness" figures are bullshit relative risk reduction numbers. The actual risk reduction figures, in the manufacturers own data, is around 1%. They do not stop people contracting coronavirus, and therefore have fuck all impact on transmission.

If the covid vaccines are not preventing infection, then I have to agree that they are not vaccines, but are therapeutics. Moreover, it also begs the question of whether, between a waning efficacy and it not preventing infection, can herd immunity ever be achieved (one of the reasons given for forcing people to get vaccinated).

There's no "if" about it, covid jabs categorically do not prevent infection. They even admit it in public.

Here's my own Prime Minster saying so: https://dailysceptic.org/2021/10/24/boris-admits-the-vaccine-doesnt-protect-you-against-catching-the-disease-and-it-doesnt-protect-you-against-passing-it-on/

Herd immunity can be achieved through infection and recovery providing natural immunity. Same as we always have for coronaviruses and flu. Which was indeed happening, until someone decided to roll out a leaky therapeutic treatment that destroys people's immune systems and primes them to ignore an old strain.

Those citations are for the measles vaccine, to show that vaccines (as characterized by data/measurements) prevent infection/confer immunity. I am not clear on what you are referring to otherwise.


Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on November 26, 2021, 11:14:17 AM
Oh dear.

https://www.wsmv.com/news/health/vanderbilt-researchers-study-ivermectin-as-possible-covid-19-treatment/article_9a2e5bea-4d79-11ec-b4be-a3da0ade9ff3.html

Horse dewormer, huh?

That "horse dewormer" claim was always infuriating. Motherfuckers, that is a nobel prize winning HUMAN medication which the entire medical community has praised for many years. If some idiots took an animal version, that isn't an indictment of the human version which most people were taking.
The horse dewormer bit is just exaggeration of the dumbest possible way to bend the news, which is not all different from what the antivaxxers do.
You mean like calling people antivaxxers?
What do you call the idiots that believe that the vaccines causes Covid?
That's not how anyone uses the term antiva... oh, that's yet another dumbest possible exaggeration isn't it! You're good at this!
I see you didn't answer the question.
You didn't answer my question first.

And I've literally never heard someone say the vaccines cause covid, so it seems silly to come up with a name for a group whose membership = 0.

Oh my fucking God Kiero said that TWO POSTS ABOVE YOURS, FOR LIKE THE 10th TIME! ASK HIM!
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on November 26, 2021, 11:15:10 AM
Pat, I truly don't know how you can willfully ignore the things Kiero is saying in this thread. He's referring specifically to completely not exaggerated things Kiero said right here. And when we call him an idiot for it you defend him. You reap what you sow mate. If you are going to continue to defend those kinds of comments from the dumbest poster here, you don't get to call other people out as dumb for "exaggerating" something they're almost directly quoting.


The things I'm saying that are accurate observations of what's going on, you mean? I really hope you and the other lab rats are still around 6-12 months from now so you can see how wrong you were. Not that you'll admit it.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on November 26, 2021, 11:15:36 AM
Oh dear.

https://www.wsmv.com/news/health/vanderbilt-researchers-study-ivermectin-as-possible-covid-19-treatment/article_9a2e5bea-4d79-11ec-b4be-a3da0ade9ff3.html

Horse dewormer, huh?

That "horse dewormer" claim was always infuriating. Motherfuckers, that is a nobel prize winning HUMAN medication which the entire medical community has praised for many years. If some idiots took an animal version, that isn't an indictment of the human version which most people were taking.
The horse dewormer bit is just exaggeration of the dumbest possible way to bend the news, which is not all different from what the antivaxxers do.
You mean like calling people antivaxxers?
What do you call the idiots that believe that the vaccines causes Covid?
That's not how anyone uses the term antiva... oh, that's yet another dumbest possible exaggeration isn't it! You're good at this!
I see you didn't answer the question.
You didn't answer my question first.

And I've literally never heard someone say the vaccines cause covid, so it seems silly to come up with a name for a group whose membership = 0.
Do you not see Kiero's posts? I never said you'd hear it spoken, but the fool believes the vaccine causes Covid and he's quite vocal about.
This is another one of those exaggerations in the dumbest possible way to bend the news, isn't it?

I thought for a second you were being serious again. Brilliant!

Stop. Just stop. Ask Kiero directly. Phrase the question however you want. I think you will be somehow shocked at his answer. No, really, he actually does believe that. No, don't reply to me, just fucking asking him.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on November 26, 2021, 11:17:05 AM
Those citations are for the measles vaccine, to show that vaccines (as characterized by data/measurements) prevent infection/confer immunity. I am not clear on what you are referring to otherwise.

Sorry, I thought you were talking about covid jab effectiveness. Let's make it simpler.

Measles vaccines have a 93% chance of preventing an infection (which is as close to guaranteed for most people - as I said some people have weird immune systems and the jab doesn't take).

Covid jabs have a 1% chance of preventing an infection.

One thing is not like the other.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on November 26, 2021, 11:18:49 AM
Pat, I truly don't know how you can willfully ignore the things Kiero is saying in this thread. He's referring specifically to completely not exaggerated things Kiero said right here. And when we call him an idiot for it you defend him. You reap what you sow mate. If you are going to continue to defend those kinds of comments from the dumbest poster here, you don't get to call other people out as dumb for "exaggerating" something they're almost directly quoting.


The things I'm saying that are accurate observations of what's going on, you mean? I really hope you and the other lab rats are still around 6-12 months from now so you can see how wrong you were. Not that you'll admit it.

Kiero, is it your opinion that the things which others call Covid vaccines and which you call not vaccines are spreading Covid worse, and leading to more hospitalizations, ICU use and deaths than if we didn't use those things we're calling vaccines? Is it your opinion the things others are calling vaccines and you call not vaccines are making people's immune systems worse and more susceptible to Covid infections and infection by other things as well?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on November 26, 2021, 11:20:54 AM
Kiero, is it your opinion that the things which others call Covid vaccines and which you call not vaccines are spreading Covid worse, and leading to more hospitalizations, ICU use and deaths than if we didn't use those things we're calling vaccines?

They are causing the mutations that create variants and failing to offer any protection. Which is why the majority of those being hospitalised and dying with covid in the UK are double-jabbed. They have caused the virus to remain in circulation throughout the summer, rather than waning as it did in 2020.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: dkabq on November 26, 2021, 11:21:51 AM
Pat, I truly don't know how you can willfully ignore the things Kiero is saying in this thread. He's referring specifically to completely not exaggerated things Kiero said right here. And when we call him an idiot for it you defend him. You reap what you sow mate. If you are going to continue to defend those kinds of comments from the dumbest poster here, you don't get to call other people out as dumb for "exaggerating" something they're almost directly quoting.


The things I'm saying that are accurate observations of what's going on, you mean? I really hope you and the other lab rats are still around 6-12 months from now so you can see how wrong you were. Not that you'll admit it.

Kiero, is it your opinion that the things which others call Covid vaccines and which you call not vaccines are spreading Covid worse, and leading to more hospitalizations, ICU use and deaths than if we didn't use those things we're calling vaccines?

I think that Kiero is referring to this:
https://www.npr.org/2021/02/09/965703047/vaccines-could-drive-the-evolution-of-more-covid-19-mutants
https://www.livescience.com/coronavirus-vaccine-resistance-mutation-model.html

Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on November 26, 2021, 11:22:32 AM
I think that Kiero is referring to this:
https://www.npr.org/2021/02/09/965703047/vaccines-could-drive-the-evolution-of-more-covid-19-mutants


I posted a lecture by JJ Couey a while back explaining the likely mechanism at work.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on November 26, 2021, 11:23:02 AM
Kiero, is it your opinion that the things which others call Covid vaccines and which you call not vaccines are spreading Covid worse, and leading to more hospitalizations, ICU use and deaths than if we didn't use those things we're calling vaccines?

They are causing the mutations that create variants and failing to offer any protection. Which is why the majority of those being hospitalised and dying with covid in the UK are double-jabbed. They have caused the virus to remain in circulation throughout the summer, rather than waning as it did in 2020.

Is it your opinion that they are making people's immune systems worse, and making people more susceptible to getting both Covid and other infections?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on November 26, 2021, 11:24:25 AM
Is it your opinion that they are making people's immune systems worse, and making people more susceptible to getting both Covid and other infections?

Yes, it's observably so.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on November 26, 2021, 11:26:18 AM
Is it your opinion that they are making people's immune systems worse, and making people more susceptible to getting both Covid and other infections?

Yes, it's observably so.

OK so is it fair to characterize your view, in summary, as the so-called vaccines which you are against are causing Covid to spread more in society, and harm people more in society, IE they basically are what is causing Covid to be a problem?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on November 26, 2021, 11:56:18 AM
Oh dear.

https://www.wsmv.com/news/health/vanderbilt-researchers-study-ivermectin-as-possible-covid-19-treatment/article_9a2e5bea-4d79-11ec-b4be-a3da0ade9ff3.html

Horse dewormer, huh?

That "horse dewormer" claim was always infuriating. Motherfuckers, that is a nobel prize winning HUMAN medication which the entire medical community has praised for many years. If some idiots took an animal version, that isn't an indictment of the human version which most people were taking.
The horse dewormer bit is just exaggeration of the dumbest possible way to bend the news, which is not all different from what the antivaxxers do.
You mean like calling people antivaxxers?
What do you call the idiots that believe that the vaccines causes Covid?
That's not how anyone uses the term antiva... oh, that's yet another dumbest possible exaggeration isn't it! You're good at this!

Pat, I truly don't know how you can willfully ignore the things Kiero is saying in this thread. He's referring specifically to completely not exaggerated things Kiero said right here. And when we call him an idiot for it you defend him. You reap what you sow mate. If you are going to continue to defend those kinds of comments from the dumbest poster here, you don't get to call other people out as dumb for "exaggerating" something they're almost directly quoting.
Oh look, more exaggeration of the dumbest possible way to bend the news.

If you weren't obsessed with carrying on this petty vendetta against me, you would have noticed I regularly contradict what Kiero says. In the last couple pages, even. But no, you have lie about what I said because you got your feelings hurt a couple weeks back when I pointed out that you make all kinds of unsupported claims, and then when you're challenged you vanish, only to reappear later like a case of herpes.

I don't agree with Kiero, but I do believe that we need to be accurate with our criticisms. HappyDaze was pointing out how the use of "dewormers" is a rather pathetic and completely dishonest attempt to bias discussion of invermectin. That's correct, it's an egregiously absurd attempt at propaganda and disinformation. But HD then used the exact same tactic in the same post, by applying the term "antivaxxer" to all kinds of people who are fans of nearly all vaccines. That kind of hypocrisy deserves to be pointed out. And then HD did the same thing with Kiero.

To be specific, Kiero never said the vaccines caused covid. That's what HD claimed Kiero said, and it's false. Kiero has claimed that the imperfect immunity causes more variants to spread, but that's a completely different argument. One that I think is a bit dubious, but it's also not one of the areas where Kiero is completely out in left field. So that's more disinformation, or "exaggeration of the dumbest possible way to bend the news".

You're blinded by butthurt and polarization. You accept any negative claims against Kiero as valid, not because they are, but because you have a negative view of Kiero, and therefore you believe that anything Kiero says must be wrong, and anything negative someone says about Kiero must be true. Which is irrational.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on November 26, 2021, 12:02:57 PM
They're vaccines, just not extraordinarily effective ones.

And we've already reached herd immunity. This is what it looks like. There will never be a miraculous point at which the disease suddenly dies off. The latest coronavirus has become endemic, part of the background of seasonal diseases we catch and develop resistance to in waves, then outbreaks flare again each new season as resistance wanes over time.

They're not vaccines, because they don't provide immunity from infection. This is a very simple definitional point.

We had reached herd immunity, until people started getting jabbed. Did you not notice the way the virus failed to recede in summer 2021 to the same degree that it did in summer 2020? That's new, and it's exactly the sort of thing virologists were warning about in trying to vaccinate your way out of an outbreak.
It is a definitional point. But you're the only person who seems to be using that definition. The rest of the world doesn't include absolute immunity in the definition of a vaccine.

The fade in the summer is because it's clearly a seasonal virus, like all the sniffles that are spreading around right now.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on November 26, 2021, 12:09:47 PM
They're vaccines, just not extraordinarily effective ones.

And we've already reached herd immunity. This is what it looks like. There will never be a miraculous point at which the disease suddenly dies off. The latest coronavirus has become endemic, part of the background of seasonal diseases we catch and develop resistance to in waves, then outbreaks flare again each new season as resistance wanes over time.

They're not vaccines, because they don't provide immunity from infection. This is a very simple definitional point.

We had reached herd immunity, until people started getting jabbed. Did you not notice the way the virus failed to recede in summer 2021 to the same degree that it did in summer 2020? That's new, and it's exactly the sort of thing virologists were warning about in trying to vaccinate your way out of an outbreak.
It is a definitional point. But you're the only person who seems to be using that definition. The rest of the world doesn't include absolute immunity in the definition of a vaccine.

The fade in the summer is because it's clearly a seasonal virus, like all the sniffles that are spreading around right now.
He said it didn't fade in the summer of 2021. That would match my first hand observation that July-September were particularly bad for C19 in Florida (and reportedly in several other states too, though I did not directly observe it there). That's not a typical time for seasonal sniffles to spike, but rather (as you noted) to fade--which is not what happened this year.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on November 26, 2021, 12:14:18 PM
Pat, I truly don't know how you can willfully ignore the things Kiero is saying in this thread. He's referring specifically to completely not exaggerated things Kiero said right here. And when we call him an idiot for it you defend him. You reap what you sow mate. If you are going to continue to defend those kinds of comments from the dumbest poster here, you don't get to call other people out as dumb for "exaggerating" something they're almost directly quoting.


The things I'm saying that are accurate observations of what's going on, you mean? I really hope you and the other lab rats are still around 6-12 months from now so you can see how wrong you were. Not that you'll admit it.

Kiero, is it your opinion that the things which others call Covid vaccines and which you call not vaccines are spreading Covid worse, and leading to more hospitalizations, ICU use and deaths than if we didn't use those things we're calling vaccines? Is it your opinion the things others are calling vaccines and you call not vaccines are making people's immune systems worse and more susceptible to Covid infections and infection by other things as well?
Oh look, even more exaggeration of the dumbest possible way to bend the news.

Why don't you just address what Kiero said, instead of trying to lure out an an answer that you can twist so it sounds like Kiero is saying what you want Kiero to say? The argument that vaccines are harming natural defenses and causing more evolutionary variation is NOT the same as saying that the vaccines cause covid, but there's plenty there to address without these stupid games.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on November 26, 2021, 12:18:52 PM
It is a definitional point. But you're the only person who seems to be using that definition. The rest of the world doesn't include absolute immunity in the definition of a vaccine.

The fade in the summer is because it's clearly a seasonal virus, like all the sniffles that are spreading around right now.

That was the accepted definition of a vaccine before 2020. Not "absolute immunity" but actually prevents infection.

No, you missed my point, and much as it pains me at say, HappyDaze is right that they didn't disappear in summer 2021 as they did in summer 2020. Israel went into lockdown this summer because rates surged (whilst they were merrily jabbing everyone).

He said it didn't fade in the summer of 2021. That would match my first hand observation that July-September were particularly bad for C19 in Florida (and reportedly in several other states too, though I did not directly observe it there). That's not a typical time for seasonal sniffles to spike, but rather (as you noted) to fade--which is not what happened this year.

And critically, that didn't happen in 2020. The normal seasonal recession of the virus happened then, before we had any jabs.

Flash forward to 2021, when in the UK the programme had been going on for 6 months, and no trough in summer.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on November 26, 2021, 12:19:18 PM
They're vaccines, just not extraordinarily effective ones.

And we've already reached herd immunity. This is what it looks like. There will never be a miraculous point at which the disease suddenly dies off. The latest coronavirus has become endemic, part of the background of seasonal diseases we catch and develop resistance to in waves, then outbreaks flare again each new season as resistance wanes over time.

They're not vaccines, because they don't provide immunity from infection. This is a very simple definitional point.

We had reached herd immunity, until people started getting jabbed. Did you not notice the way the virus failed to recede in summer 2021 to the same degree that it did in summer 2020? That's new, and it's exactly the sort of thing virologists were warning about in trying to vaccinate your way out of an outbreak.
It is a definitional point. But you're the only person who seems to be using that definition. The rest of the world doesn't include absolute immunity in the definition of a vaccine.

The fade in the summer is because it's clearly a seasonal virus, like all the sniffles that are spreading around right now.
He said it didn't fade in the summer of 2021. That would match my first hand observation that July-September were particularly bad for C19 in Florida (and reportedly in several other states too, though I did not directly observe it there). That's not a typical time for seasonal sniffles to spike, but rather (as you noted) to fade--which is not what happened this year.
Oops. Yep, I inverted what Kiero said.

It's a weird virus. It's definitely following some seasonal patterns, but not others. Right now, we're seeing a surge that seems seasonal in nature, but Florida does break that pattern.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on November 26, 2021, 12:21:35 PM
OK so is it fair to characterize your view, in summary, as the so-called vaccines which you are against are causing Covid to spread more in society, and harm people more in society, IE they basically are what is causing Covid to be a problem?

Stop trying to lead the witness. I've said repeatedly the jabs do fuck all to protect people and damage the immune systems of those who've been jabbed. That's without getting into the vascular damage.

They created the Delta variant and this new Botswana variant too. Classic vaccine escape.

Oops. Yep, I inverted what Kiero said.

It's a weird virus. It's definitely following some seasonal patterns, but not others. Right now, we're seeing a surge that seems seasonal in nature, but Florida does break that pattern.

It's not weird virus, that's what happens when you jab during an outbreak. That's exactly what virologists were warning of when saying the jab programmes were stupid.

Now we have the "Botswana" variant which ignores the anaemic "immunity" of the jabs altogether (though the Delta/Indian variant was already doing that).
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on November 26, 2021, 12:26:55 PM
It is a definitional point. But you're the only person who seems to be using that definition. The rest of the world doesn't include absolute immunity in the definition of a vaccine.

The fade in the summer is because it's clearly a seasonal virus, like all the sniffles that are spreading around right now.

That was the accepted definition of a vaccine before 2020. Not "absolute immunity" but actually prevents infection.

No, you missed my point, and much as it pains me at say, HappyDaze is right that they didn't disappear in summer 2021 as they did in summer 2020. Israel went into lockdown this summer because rates surged (whilst they were merrily jabbing everyone).

He said it didn't fade in the summer of 2021. That would match my first hand observation that July-September were particularly bad for C19 in Florida (and reportedly in several other states too, though I did not directly observe it there). That's not a typical time for seasonal sniffles to spike, but rather (as you noted) to fade--which is not what happened this year.

And critically, that didn't happen in 2020. The normal seasonal recession of the virus happened then, before we had any jabs.

Flash forward to 2020, when in the UK the programme had been going on for 6 months, and no trough in summer.
Do you believe that a single year, the one in which Covid first appeared, is sufficient to predict how it should behave every year?

Do you believe that the introduction of the vaccines is the only variable that has changed from 2020 to 2021?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on November 26, 2021, 12:29:33 PM
Do you believe that a single year, the one in which Covid first appeared, is sufficient to predict how it should behave every year?

Do you believe that the introduction of the vaccines is the only variable that has changed from 2020 to 2021?

Coronaviruses are endemic and seasonal. They appear every single year. They have a normal season. Not even this strain is particularly novel, given it's a spin on SARS-COV-1 of 2003.

Yes, that's the most significant change impact this virus alone, since it was a widespread programme of mass jabbing in a very short space of time.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on November 26, 2021, 12:30:15 PM
Oops. Yep, I inverted what Kiero said.

It's a weird virus. It's definitely following some seasonal patterns, but not others. Right now, we're seeing a surge that seems seasonal in nature, but Florida does break that pattern.

It's not weird virus, that's what happens when you jab during an outbreak. That's exactly what virologists were warning of when saying the jab programmes were stupid.

Now we have the "Botswana" variant which ignores the anaemic "immunity" of the jabs altogether (though the Delta/Indian variant was already doing that).
No, it's a very weird virus. The mortality profile almost perfectly matches natural mortality, which is completely different from most other diseases, which often disproportionately affect the young and babies. It's also spread seemingly without any regard for the countermeasures put in place, except for locking down borders of island states. Some of this strangeness has turned out to be the fog of war: We have a much better grasp of the cardiovascular implications and aerosolization than a year ago, for instance. But it remains an very atypical disease in many ways, and there are bands of uncertainty about many things, like its seasonal nature or what's going on in Africa.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on November 26, 2021, 12:35:16 PM
No, it's a very weird virus. The mortality profile almost perfectly matches natural mortality, which is completely different from most other diseases, which often disproportionately affect the young and babies. It's also spread seemingly without any regard for the countermeasures put in place, except for locking down borders of island states. Some of this strangeness has turned out to be the fog of war: We have a much better grasp of the cardiovascular implications and aerosolization than a year ago, for instance. But it remains an very atypical disease in many ways, and there are bands of uncertainty about many things, like its seasonal nature.

Flu kills the very old and very young. Pneumonia kills the old. We've seen other viruses like this before. You have an immediate problem in distinguishing it when both of the former are now lumped in with the same stats as covid.

Questionable that lockdowns did anything to slow spread (though they certainly slowed the arrival of herd immunity). None of the measures made any meaningful difference, most of them are nothing more than theatre to make people think they're doing something.

There have been coronaviruses every year before this one (the cousin of this was last prevalent in 2003). Unless someone has actually been tinkering with it, the other health implications are nothing new.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on November 26, 2021, 12:35:39 PM
Pat, I truly don't know how you can willfully ignore the things Kiero is saying in this thread. He's referring specifically to completely not exaggerated things Kiero said right here. And when we call him an idiot for it you defend him. You reap what you sow mate. If you are going to continue to defend those kinds of comments from the dumbest poster here, you don't get to call other people out as dumb for "exaggerating" something they're almost directly quoting.


The things I'm saying that are accurate observations of what's going on, you mean? I really hope you and the other lab rats are still around 6-12 months from now so you can see how wrong you were. Not that you'll admit it.

Kiero, is it your opinion that the things which others call Covid vaccines and which you call not vaccines are spreading Covid worse, and leading to more hospitalizations, ICU use and deaths than if we didn't use those things we're calling vaccines? Is it your opinion the things others are calling vaccines and you call not vaccines are making people's immune systems worse and more susceptible to Covid infections and infection by other things as well?
Oh look, even more exaggeration of the dumbest possible way to bend the news.

Why don't you just address what Kiero said, instead of trying to lure out an an answer that you can twist so it sounds like Kiero is saying what you want Kiero to say? The argument that vaccines are harming natural defenses and causing more evolutionary variation is NOT the same as saying that the vaccines cause covid, but there's plenty there to address without these stupid games.

Oh for fuck sake if a person thinks the vaccines are damaging immune systems which leads to covid spreading a lot more and harming a lot more people, that is fairly characterized as saying the vaccine is causing covid.

Only your stupid linguistic games could possibly spin that as some massive "exaggeration" when if we were talking about any non-hotbutton topic everyone would agree that if X leads to a whole lot more of Y then it's ordinary language to then say X is causing Y. For example if we said government handouts are causing inflation, nobody would blink even though they don't mean it literally directly is the inflation itself or the only possible contribution to inflation - we'd all grok the sentence handouts cause inflation without claiming that is some wild exageration.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on November 26, 2021, 12:39:46 PM
Oh for fuck sake if a person thinks the vaccines are damaging immune systems which leads to covid spreading a lot more and harming a lot more people, that is fairly characterized as saying the vaccine is causing covid.
Changing what someone said into something different that you think sounds worse is the exact opposite of a fair characterization of what they said.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on November 26, 2021, 12:59:32 PM
Oh for fuck sake if a person thinks the vaccines are damaging immune systems which leads to covid spreading a lot more and harming a lot more people, that is fairly characterized as saying the vaccine is causing covid.

Not vaccines plural, these mRNA jabs.

The flu jab doesn't damage the immune system, it's just useless. Relatively harmless, but useless.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: dkabq on November 26, 2021, 01:25:06 PM
They're vaccines, just not extraordinarily effective ones.

And we've already reached herd immunity. This is what it looks like. There will never be a miraculous point at which the disease suddenly dies off. The latest coronavirus has become endemic, part of the background of seasonal diseases we catch and develop resistance to in waves, then outbreaks flare again each new season as resistance wanes over time.

They're not vaccines, because they don't provide immunity from infection. This is a very simple definitional point.

We had reached herd immunity, until people started getting jabbed. Did you not notice the way the virus failed to recede in summer 2021 to the same degree that it did in summer 2020? That's new, and it's exactly the sort of thing virologists were warning about in trying to vaccinate your way out of an outbreak.
It is a definitional point. But you're the only person who seems to be using that definition. The rest of the world doesn't include absolute immunity in the definition of a vaccine.

The fade in the summer is because it's clearly a seasonal virus, like all the sniffles that are spreading around right now.

Immunity (i.e., taking the vaccine results in you not getting the disease) is in the definition of vaccine efficacy.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccine_efficacy
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack_rate

I thought it was interesting that there are instances where the vaccine under consideration increases the risk to the participants.

Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Shasarak on November 26, 2021, 04:14:33 PM
They're vaccines, just not extraordinarily effective ones.

And we've already reached herd immunity. This is what it looks like. There will never be a miraculous point at which the disease suddenly dies off. The latest coronavirus has become endemic, part of the background of seasonal diseases we catch and develop resistance to in waves, then outbreaks flare again each new season as resistance wanes over time.

They're not vaccines, because they don't provide immunity from infection. This is a very simple definitional point.

We had reached herd immunity, until people started getting jabbed. Did you not notice the way the virus failed to recede in summer 2021 to the same degree that it did in summer 2020? That's new, and it's exactly the sort of thing virologists were warning about in trying to vaccinate your way out of an outbreak.
It is a definitional point. But you're the only person who seems to be using that definition. The rest of the world doesn't include absolute immunity in the definition of a vaccine.

The fade in the summer is because it's clearly a seasonal virus, like all the sniffles that are spreading around right now.

I am not the rest of the world and on the other hand I also support the decategorisation of the Covid shot from the vaccine category.

Lets keep that term for medicines that actually vaccinate people against things.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on November 26, 2021, 09:04:31 PM
Here are the Federal OSHA rules for the US vax mandate (https://www.littler.com/publication-press/publication/federal-osha-issues-long-awaited-vaccine-or-test-emergency-regulations). Note: It does in fact include weekly testing as an alternative to vaccination. Weekly testing does in fact include the "spit in a tube" version.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: dkabq on November 26, 2021, 09:30:34 PM
Here are the Federal OSHA rules for the US vax mandate (https://www.littler.com/publication-press/publication/federal-osha-issues-long-awaited-vaccine-or-test-emergency-regulations). Note: It does in fact include weekly testing as an alternative to vaccination. Weekly testing does in fact include the "spit in a tube" version.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6QNsNMFH5s
Fucking liar. There is a special circle of hell waiting for him, St. Fauci, and all of the other covid hypocrites.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: dkabq on November 26, 2021, 09:46:55 PM
Here are the Federal OSHA rules for the US vax mandate (https://www.littler.com/publication-press/publication/federal-osha-issues-long-awaited-vaccine-or-test-emergency-regulations). Note: It does in fact include weekly testing as an alternative to vaccination. Weekly testing does in fact include the "spit in a tube" version.

Any idea of the false positive/negative rate of the spit test? Or how well it discerns between an actual infection vs viral remains for a previous infection? My understanding of the PCR test is that it is notionally run with a too-high cycle rate, resulting in a high false positive rate.
https://sentinelksmo.org/kdhe-quietly-reduced-cycle-threshold-on-covid-tests/

I have a colleague who had covid, and was told by the medical department (where we work) to not bother getting a covid test for the next couple of months, as he would continue to test positive for quite a while after he was no longer infected.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on November 26, 2021, 11:58:27 PM
Here are the Federal OSHA rules for the US vax mandate (https://www.littler.com/publication-press/publication/federal-osha-issues-long-awaited-vaccine-or-test-emergency-regulations). Note: It does in fact include weekly testing as an alternative to vaccination. Weekly testing does in fact include the "spit in a tube" version.

Any idea of the false positive/negative rate of the spit test? Or how well it discerns between an actual infection vs viral remains for a previous infection? My understanding of the PCR test is that it is notionally run with a too-high cycle rate, resulting in a high false positive rate.
https://sentinelksmo.org/kdhe-quietly-reduced-cycle-threshold-on-covid-tests/

I have a colleague who had covid, and was told by the medical department (where we work) to not bother getting a covid test for the next couple of months, as he would continue to test positive for quite a while after he was no longer infected.

More recent studies showed "Saliva testing for coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) is as effective as the standard nasopharyngeal test." See for example McGill University study.

Most places out here have shifted to them, because they require far less supervision and even children can learn to do it on their own, seal it, replace it in an envelope, and dump it in a box. I've taken one and it is non-invasive and very simple.

As for false positives for "months" that doesn't seem to be a common issue anymore. Generally doctors can now more accurately read the tests to release as a negative within 10 days after your last symptom.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on November 27, 2021, 02:20:14 AM
Even if children can do it on their own, you're not allowed. The mandate says you must take it in front of an secret police informer I mean authorized proctor.

Fortunately, Costco has a spit test with creepy video observation for $140, marked down to only $119 at the time of this post!
https://www.costco.com/covid-19-saliva-pcr-test-kit-voucher-with-video-observation-for-travel%2c-redeemed-by-azova.product.100706659.html

The cost of complying is small. Just $7,300 a year, or $6,200 at the discounted price! The discount brings the cost down to under half the yearly income of someone working full time at the federal minimum wage, so it's a bargain! At the minor cost of some minor pocket change you were going to use for non-essentials like feeding your children, and the sacrifice of valueless intangibles like medical privacy and personal dignity, you can retain a tiny shred of bodily autonomy. At least until they go back on their word, yet again, and force you to take the jab anyway.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: dkabq on November 27, 2021, 06:51:29 AM
Even if children can do it on their own, you're not allowed. The mandate says you must take it in front of an secret police informer I mean authorized proctor.

Fortunately, Costco has a spit test with creepy video observation for $140, marked down to only $119 at the time of this post!
https://www.costco.com/covid-19-saliva-pcr-test-kit-voucher-with-video-observation-for-travel%2c-redeemed-by-azova.product.100706659.html

The cost of complying is small. Just $7,300 a year, or $6,200 at the discounted price! The discount brings the cost down to under half the yearly income of someone working full time at the federal minimum wage, so it's a bargain! At the minor cost of some minor pocket change you were going to use for non-essentials like feeding your children, and the sacrifice of valueless intangibles like medical privacy and personal dignity, you can retain a tiny shred of bodily autonomy. At least until they go back on their word, yet again, and force you to take the jab anyway.

What?!? Brandon would never go back on his word.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on November 27, 2021, 09:30:02 AM
All the tests are bullshit. Neither the PCR nor LFT were designed to be used in this way, and if you run PCR tests at more than 20 cycles, the results are garbage.

Most are using 40-45 cycles, which produces a huge number of false positives. Lovely little earner for all the politicians cronies running the tests, though.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on November 28, 2021, 02:14:15 AM
Even if children can do it on their own, you're not allowed. The mandate says you must take it in front of an secret police informer I mean authorized proctor.

Fortunately, Costco has a spit test with creepy video observation for $140, marked down to only $119 at the time of this post!
https://www.costco.com/covid-19-saliva-pcr-test-kit-voucher-with-video-observation-for-travel%2c-redeemed-by-azova.product.100706659.html

The cost of complying is small. Just $7,300 a year, or $6,200 at the discounted price! The discount brings the cost down to under half the yearly income of someone working full time at the federal minimum wage, so it's a bargain! At the minor cost of some minor pocket change you were going to use for non-essentials like feeding your children, and the sacrifice of valueless intangibles like medical privacy and personal dignity, you can retain a tiny shred of bodily autonomy. At least until they go back on their word, yet again, and force you to take the jab anyway.

Its's covered by insurance. You know, the same insurance you're already required by law to have. We can of course rehash the Obamacare debate, but as that law does in fact exist, and if you cannot afford insurance it's subsidized, it's not an issue. "...all forms of private, public and self-funded insurance plans are obligated to cover the cost of FDA approved PCR COVID19 testing."

In LA, businesses and schools covered by a mandate contract with a testing company for weekly testing. Individuals pay nothing.

Some day, Pat, you will not talk out of your ass about shit you know nothing about as if you do know all about it because you did a quick Google search and thought that was enough. But apparently today is not that day. If you cared at all about the truth of things rather than thwacking your dick around on the Internet, you'd be a tad more humble on occasion. But we both know you won't be able to do that, at least not on this forum, and at least not when interacting with me.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on November 28, 2021, 04:56:53 AM
Even if children can do it on their own, you're not allowed. The mandate says you must take it in front of an secret police informer I mean authorized proctor.

Fortunately, Costco has a spit test with creepy video observation for $140, marked down to only $119 at the time of this post!
https://www.costco.com/covid-19-saliva-pcr-test-kit-voucher-with-video-observation-for-travel%2c-redeemed-by-azova.product.100706659.html

The cost of complying is small. Just $7,300 a year, or $6,200 at the discounted price! The discount brings the cost down to under half the yearly income of someone working full time at the federal minimum wage, so it's a bargain! At the minor cost of some minor pocket change you were going to use for non-essentials like feeding your children, and the sacrifice of valueless intangibles like medical privacy and personal dignity, you can retain a tiny shred of bodily autonomy. At least until they go back on their word, yet again, and force you to take the jab anyway.

Its's covered by insurance. You know, the same insurance you're already required by law to have. We can of course rehash the Obamacare debate, but as that law does in fact exist, and if you cannot afford insurance it's subsidized, it's not an issue. "...all forms of private, public and self-funded insurance plans are obligated to cover the cost of FDA approved PCR COVID19 testing."

In LA, businesses and schools covered by a mandate contract with a testing company for weekly testing. Individuals pay nothing.

Some day, Pat, you will not talk out of your ass about shit you know nothing about as if you do know all about it because you did a quick Google search and thought that was enough. But apparently today is not that day. If you cared at all about the truth of things rather than thwacking your dick around on the Internet, you'd be a tad more humble on occasion. But we both know you won't be able to do that, at least not on this forum, and at least not when interacting with me.
Jesus fuck, you've become quite the obsessive creepy stalker, haven't you?

Protip: Duckduckgo the "number of people without health insurance in the US" sometime. Or the "ACA exemption". Your gross ignorance should not be a point of pride.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on November 28, 2021, 06:38:59 AM
There's no such thing as "free tests". Someone has to pay for them. In the UK it's every taxpayer, whether they use them or not (I never have).
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ghostmaker on November 28, 2021, 11:42:35 AM
https://nypost.com/2021/11/26/gov-hochul-orders-elective-surgery-canceled-amid-covid-spike-omicron/

'Elective' does not mean optional. It means 'scheduled in advance'. As opposed to 'emergency', i.e. WE GOTTA CUT HIM OPEN RIGHT NOW.

Hochul's going to get someone killed with this, just like her buddy Cuomo was killing old people.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on November 28, 2021, 11:58:20 AM
https://nypost.com/2021/11/26/gov-hochul-orders-elective-surgery-canceled-amid-covid-spike-omicron/

'Elective' does not mean optional. It means 'scheduled in advance'. As opposed to 'emergency', i.e. WE GOTTA CUT HIM OPEN RIGHT NOW.

Hochul's going to get someone killed with this, just like her buddy Cuomo was killing old people.
This is not the first time this has been done. It's not going to beget people killed, but it can certainly lead to prolonging suffering and a resulting reduction in quality of life. I don't approve of blanket cancellations of elective procedures far in advance when predicting a possible surge. It's different to suspend them when the surge is already confirmed (based on spiking hospitalization rate) and resources are unable to meet the immanent needs. For many elective sirgeries, hospital time is < 48 hours, and those beds can be cleared quickly enough. Besides, at this point, it's not like staff that would have serviced electives are going to be retrained to handle Covid emergencies, so it has a high chance of just causing unneeded idleness.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on November 28, 2021, 12:54:05 PM
There's no such thing as "free tests". Someone has to pay for them. In the UK it's every taxpayer, whether they use them or not (I never have).

Yes, of course it is paid by the taxpayer. And yes, this is meaningful. But, it's not the point he was trying to make. He was claiming the burden of paying for the test was on the employee, and citing an obscenely high rate (I suspect intentionally since the actual rate was less than half of that and that's for foreign travelers buying it on a one time entry basis).

If Pat knew of any human being paying thousands for weekly testing, he'd say so. He doesn't. It's a scenario he made up he's using to scare people.

He knows of no employee somewhere who is oppressed by the State to pay weekly testing for refusing the vaccine. It's nonsense, and a situation where he knows zero people actually in that position. It was his way of engaging in a scare tactic he posts as a defense mechanism to avoid having to honestly discuss topics. We we don't need any more manufactured scare tactics with this topic.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on November 28, 2021, 07:32:21 PM
The mandate hasn't been imposed yet. They literally just published the wording, and the implementation of the mandate is being held up in the courts. Of course there are no examples yet, because it doesn't exist yet. But we can draw some conclusions, based on what we currently know. The conclusions I drew were the obvious, clear, and clearly intended results. After all, we have unambiguous statements by people like Jen Pisaki saying will be cheaper for people to take the free jab than to pay for all the tests, and that yes, people will have to pay for their own tests. Their stated plan is to economically bully poor people into taking the jab, because they simply can't afford the alternative.

Mistwell, since you've turned into a creepy stalker, you've lost what few vestiges of sense you might have once possessed. This is completely irrational, even ignoring all the random things you're making up about me.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on November 29, 2021, 12:19:01 AM
The mandate hasn't been imposed yet. They literally just published the wording, and the implementation of the mandate is being held up in the courts. Of course there are no examples yet, because it doesn't exist yet. But we can draw some conclusions, based on what we currently know. The conclusions I drew were the obvious, clear, and clearly intended results. After all, we have unambiguous statements by people like Jen Pisaki saying will be cheaper for people to take the free jab than to pay for all the tests, and that yes, people will have to pay for their own tests. Their stated plan is to economically bully poor people into taking the jab, because they simply can't afford the alternative.

Mistwell, since you've turned into a creepy stalker, you've lost what few vestiges of sense you might have once possessed. This is completely irrational, even ignoring all the random things you're making up about me.

Of course it exists. It's just being done in locals right now, rather than federal. But we have mandates in the US and can see how they are working and being implemented, using the verbiage of the federal mandate as their models. LA has one right now. You don't need to pay for tests.

They are being subsidized by the Government. It's under a law called the The Families First and Coronavirus Relief Act (FFCRA), as amended by the Coronavirus Aid, Relief, and Economic Security (CARES) Act. "Testing for the detection of SARS-CoV-2, the virus that causes COVID-19...shall be free to the patient, so long as the federally-declared public health emergency is in effect. This protection applies to virtually every form of health coverage, including Medicare, Medicaid, and private insurance (other than some forms of coverage, such as short-term plans, that are exempt from much insurance regulation). Federal law also establishes a fund that will pay for tests delivered to uninsured patients if a provider chooses to seek reimbursement."

Your tax dollars are already paying for them. Which has its own issues of course, but it's not making anyone broke to be taking weekly tests.

Now if they change the subsidies to match the intent you claim they have, then you will have a point. I know of no proposed bills to remove the subsidies. Do you?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on November 29, 2021, 04:55:45 AM
We literally have statements by Pisaki and other that they will pay. And given how they've progressively tightened the screws far beyond their original claims on nearly everything, it requires a staggering level of naivety to dismiss the concern.
Quote from: December 2020
Reporter: Do you think the COVID vaccine should be mandatory?

Biden: No, I don't think it should be mandatory. I wouldn't demand it to be mandatory.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on November 29, 2021, 09:23:11 PM
We literally have statements by Pisaki and other that they will pay. And given how they've progressively tightened the screws far beyond their original claims on nearly everything, it requires a staggering level of naivety to dismiss the concern.
Quote from: December 2020
Reporter: Do you think the COVID vaccine should be mandatory?

Biden: No, I don't think it should be mandatory. I wouldn't demand it to be mandatory.

Pisaki is mistaken or lying then. Does that possibly really shock you? Very likely just trying to scare people into getting the vaccine because they're ignorant that the testing is free. Congress passed that law - TWICE in fact. It can be lifted by lifting the emergency declaration but given the vaccine mandate requires the emergency declaration I don't see how that would work.

Pat have you never been tested? Were you not aware you can get them for free? 
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on November 29, 2021, 09:49:13 PM
We literally have statements by Pisaki and other that they will pay. And given how they've progressively tightened the screws far beyond their original claims on nearly everything, it requires a staggering level of naivety to dismiss the concern.
Quote from: December 2020
Reporter: Do you think the COVID vaccine should be mandatory?

Biden: No, I don't think it should be mandatory. I wouldn't demand it to be mandatory.

Pisaki is mistaken or lying then. Does that possibly really shock you? Very likely just trying to scare people into getting the vaccine because they're ignorant that the testing is free. Congress passed that law - TWICE in fact. It can be lifted by lifting the emergency declaration but given the vaccine mandate requires the emergency declaration I don't see how that would work.

Pat have you never been tested? Were you not aware you can get them for free?
I've been tested several times. I'm quite aware that the tests have been free. Probably far more so than you, because I've actually called around to verify that for people who do not have health insurance (who exist, despite your denial).

Stop being a patronizing, dishonest scumbag. That's not what this discussion is about. You're just trying to reframe it that way in a pathetic attempt to score points.

The current administration has repeatedly promised that everything would be optional, and then went back on their word at the slightest excuse, whether it was a minor surge, a new variant, or whatever other reason they could conjure. They've done everything they can to coerce, threaten, or just outright hurt anyone who disagrees with their totalitarian dictates. They occasionally back down when there's too much public pressure, but keep edging forward again. One step back, two jack boots goose-stepping forward. They've repeatedly defied court rulings to do so, and they control both houses of Congress. What deluded world do you live in where you think they won't use the cost of the tests as a weapon to force compliance? It's the most parsimonious outcome, and we need to speak out loudly and forcefully against if it we're going to have any chance of stopping it.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on November 30, 2021, 01:47:02 PM
 So, I guess the message is, so long as the condom is free do not complain about the sodomy? 
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: 3catcircus on November 30, 2021, 02:03:46 PM
So, I guess the message is, so long as the condom is free do not complain about the sodomy?

Might as well lie down and enjoy it...
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: dkabq on November 30, 2021, 04:01:06 PM
So, I guess the message is, so long as the condom is free do not complain about the sodomy?

Might as well lie down and enjoy it...

BOHICA!
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on November 30, 2021, 06:25:46 PM
In our latest completely unnecessary press conference from our fat, stupid cunt of a PM, he hinted our military will be "helping" people get vaccinated. Is he envisaging an Australian solution to all of us unjabbed?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on November 30, 2021, 06:34:27 PM
In our latest completely unnecessary press conference from out fat, stupid cunt of a PM, he hinted our military will be "helping" people get vaccinated. Is he envisaging an Australian solution to all of us unjabbed?

  I can not imagine how super jealous our politicians are of yours and australia's politicians.   Of course they might end up "helping" some of us here as well.  Though here it will be really fucking ugly.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on November 30, 2021, 06:38:41 PM
  I can not imagine how super jealous our politicians are of yours and australia's politicians.   Of course they might end up "helping" some of us here as well.  Though here it will be really fucking ugly.

Not a coincidence the Aussies were disarmed a few years back...

Our Health Secretary made a big play of how there are 5 million of us who've never had a jab (then tried some pathetic emotional blackmail about how we're putting ourselves and everyone around us "at risk"). Course the real number is likely much higher than that, not least because their population estimates are wrong.

And I'll trust to the natural immunity I have, which is significantly more effective than your anaemic jab "immunity" thanks.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on November 30, 2021, 09:24:11 PM
We literally have statements by Pisaki and other that they will pay. And given how they've progressively tightened the screws far beyond their original claims on nearly everything, it requires a staggering level of naivety to dismiss the concern.
Quote from: December 2020
Reporter: Do you think the COVID vaccine should be mandatory?

Biden: No, I don't think it should be mandatory. I wouldn't demand it to be mandatory.

Pisaki is mistaken or lying then. Does that possibly really shock you? Very likely just trying to scare people into getting the vaccine because they're ignorant that the testing is free. Congress passed that law - TWICE in fact. It can be lifted by lifting the emergency declaration but given the vaccine mandate requires the emergency declaration I don't see how that would work.

Pat have you never been tested? Were you not aware you can get them for free?
I've been tested several times. I'm quite aware that the tests have been free. Probably far more so than you, because I've actually called around to verify that for people who do not have health insurance (who exist, despite your denial).

Stop being a patronizing, dishonest scumbag. That's not what this discussion is about. You're just trying to reframe it that way in a pathetic attempt to score points.

The current administration has repeatedly promised that everything would be optional, and then went back on their word at the slightest excuse, whether it was a minor surge, a new variant, or whatever other reason they could conjure. They've done everything they can to coerce, threaten, or just outright hurt anyone who disagrees with their totalitarian dictates. They occasionally back down when there's too much public pressure, but keep edging forward again. One step back, two jack boots goose-stepping forward. They've repeatedly defied court rulings to do so, and they control both houses of Congress. What deluded world do you live in where you think they won't use the cost of the tests as a weapon to force compliance? It's the most parsimonious outcome, and we need to speak out loudly and forcefully against if it we're going to have any chance of stopping it.

Of course some people have no health insurance - it's covered for free even in that instance too and that's right there in the law.

You're claiming they will change the law to comply with your world view of how it works. Which is complete nonsense. UNTIL the law is changed - and NOBODY so far has even mentioned the possibility of changing that law - your view of how it works was wrong. But instead of admitting you were wrong, you are personally attacking me and ranting nonsense about how they will magically change the law or break the law to match how you thought it already works but doesn't.

What does it take for you to admit you were wrong, other than an actual law showing you were wrong? I mean if that isn't enough, I am seriously asking what level of evidence it would take for you to admit you were mistaken?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on December 01, 2021, 12:14:02 AM
Of course some people have no health insurance - it's covered for free even in that instance too and that's right there in the law.

Well its covered by raised taxes/debt. Its not really free. Its mandatory debt/taxes for something with not a great rate of detection.

Resources are not magic, and their mismanagement can get people killed as much as any virus (the impact is just harder to detect).

Can we just wait at this point to get something that works well enough a new quad-anual variant won't render it mostly useless? And then pay for that?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Zelen on December 01, 2021, 12:52:22 AM
Of course some people have no health insurance - it's covered for free even in that instance too and that's right there in the law.

Well its covered by raised taxes/debt. Its not really free. Its mandatory debt/taxes for something with not a great rate of detection.

Resources are not magic, and their mismanagement can get people killed as much as any virus (the impact is just harder to detect).

Can we just wait at this point to get something that works well enough a new quad-anual variant won't render it mostly useless? And then pay for that?

Nope. There is more money (& importantly, more control) in booster shots every 3-6 months, with forever-expiring passports and fusion of corporate & government in globalized medical apartheid state.

What is that you say? Maybe we should allocate the funds used on perpetual fearmongering & testing onto something that would actually provide long term quality of life & longevity benefits, rather than on something that primarily benefits octogenerians? Sorry I can't hear you over the sound of a boot jabbing a needle into a human face, forever.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on December 01, 2021, 01:27:49 AM
Of course some people have no health insurance - it's covered for free even in that instance too and that's right there in the law.

You're claiming they will change the law to comply with your world view of how it works. Which is complete nonsense. UNTIL the law is changed - and NOBODY so far has even mentioned the possibility of changing that law - your view of how it works was wrong. But instead of admitting you were wrong, you are personally attacking me and ranting nonsense about how they will magically change the law or break the law to match how you thought it already works but doesn't.

What does it take for you to admit you were wrong, other than an actual law showing you were wrong? I mean if that isn't enough, I am seriously asking what level of evidence it would take for you to admit you were mistaken?
Jen Pisaki is NOBODY?

I literally cited the president's spokesperson. You acknowledged that. You said she was wrong to say that. I also cited a clear pattern showing how the administration has constantly gone back on their word, and are continually moving the goalposts in the direction of coercion. And yet you're denying that, just like how one post back you were denying that some people lack healthcare insurance.

You're not just wrong, you're completely irrational. You're literally posting claims that completely contradict points you addressed and agreed to just a couple posts ago. You've turned into a creepy stalker obsessed with randomly insulting me, randomly making up shit about me, and above all proving me wrong, even if you have absolutely no grounds, and it's all because you flipped out when I called you out on your dishonest, bullshit tactics a few weeks ago.

Grow the the hell up.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on December 01, 2021, 01:56:08 AM
What is that you say? Maybe we should allocate the funds used on perpetual fearmongering & testing onto something that would actually provide long term quality of life & longevity benefits, rather than on something that primarily benefits octogenerians? Sorry I can't hear you over the sound of a boot jabbing a needle into a human face, forever.
I know I'm repeating myself, but I'm still going to recommend, again, that everyone read Hannah Arendt's The Origins of Totalitarianism. The first section about the rise of antisemitism isn't particularly relevant to today, but the section about imperialism had a lot of surprising parallels, and almost every paragraph in the final section on totalitarianism echoes what's been happening. The parts about the use of terror as an excuse to fabricate a crisis and seize power, the desperate need not just to oppose but to completely stifle any opposing sources of information, the need to not just take political control but to dictate all parts of a person's life, the way the true radicalism of the movement is concealed by more moderate elements, the way it appeals to the socially isolated, and on and on is uncanny.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: dkabq on December 01, 2021, 06:54:36 AM
"Sad Little Man" by FiveTimesAugust
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6plsSlxOstQ
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on December 01, 2021, 10:38:45 AM
What a surprise. Coming on the back of Austria and Germany imposing mandatory vaccination, now the EU is suggesting all their Member States follow suit: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/dec/01/eu-must-consider-mandatory-covid-jabs-says-von-der-leyen

Definitely not co-ordinated, though.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on December 01, 2021, 11:51:05 AM
Nothing to see here:

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FFiKyyWXEAQqR0J?format=jpg)
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on December 01, 2021, 02:15:35 PM
Of course some people have no health insurance - it's covered for free even in that instance too and that's right there in the law.

Well its covered by raised taxes/debt. Its not really free. Its mandatory debt/taxes for something with not a great rate of detection.

Resources are not magic, and their mismanagement can get people killed as much as any virus (the impact is just harder to detect).

Can we just wait at this point to get something that works well enough a new quad-anual variant won't render it mostly useless? And then pay for that?

Yes I know it's paid by taxes, I said that when I first raised that issue and spoke about that part of this issue. Can we stop playing fucking games with people's context to pretend they mean something other than what they've actually said?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on December 01, 2021, 02:19:16 PM
Of course some people have no health insurance - it's covered for free even in that instance too and that's right there in the law.

You're claiming they will change the law to comply with your world view of how it works. Which is complete nonsense. UNTIL the law is changed - and NOBODY so far has even mentioned the possibility of changing that law - your view of how it works was wrong. But instead of admitting you were wrong, you are personally attacking me and ranting nonsense about how they will magically change the law or break the law to match how you thought it already works but doesn't.

What does it take for you to admit you were wrong, other than an actual law showing you were wrong? I mean if that isn't enough, I am seriously asking what level of evidence it would take for you to admit you were mistaken?
Jen Pisaki is NOBODY?

I literally cited the president's spokesperson. You acknowledged that. You said she was wrong to say that. I also cited a clear pattern showing how the administration has constantly gone back on their word, and are continually moving the goalposts in the direction of coercion. And yet you're denying that, just like how one post back you were denying that some people lack healthcare insurance.

You're not just wrong, you're completely irrational. You're literally posting claims that completely contradict points you addressed and agreed to just a couple posts ago. You've turned into a creepy stalker obsessed with randomly insulting me, randomly making up shit about me, and above all proving me wrong, even if you have absolutely no grounds, and it's all because you flipped out when I called you out on your dishonest, bullshit tactics a few weeks ago.

Grow the the hell up.

Let me see if I have this straight. You think the President's press  secretary always tells the truth, never spins stuff, never lies, never leaves stuff out, and is a good source of information on the laws of our nation. Is that your position?

Because if it's not, would you stop with the "I am going to bash the President as a liar when it's convenient for my belief system, and cite the President as a truth teller when it's convenient for my belief system, and ignore any evidence contrary to my belief system" nonsense?

She's lying or spinning or incorrect. WHICH IS A VERY COMMON THING FOR PRESS SECRETARIES. In any other thread about Biden's press secretary you'd agree with me she's not a reliable source of information. I've cited the law to you, you've failed to raise a single person on congress even advocating the possibility to hinting at changing the law, so where is your evidence the law will be changed aside from citing someone who in any other conversation you'd agree is unreliable as a source?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on December 01, 2021, 02:39:53 PM
Yes I know it's paid by taxes, I said that when I first raised that issue and spoke about that part of this issue. Can we stop playing fucking games with people's context to pretend they mean something other than what they've actually said?

I could apply the same thing to your phrasing. Say 'subsidized' instead of 'free'.

Let me see if I have this straight. You think the President's press  secretary always tells the truth, never spins stuff, never lies, never leaves stuff out, and is a good source of information on the laws of our nation. Is that your position?

Is your position that the Presidents secratary is a lying manipulator thats threatening people into forced vaccination (with a wobbly rate of effectiveness that doesn't stop sickness or transmission) by threat of extortion (instead of just the much nicer reality of putting them more in debt) for a mandetory verification system (also very unreliable), is somehow the GOOD reality?

"Threatening people is OK as long as you don't really mean it". And somehow its everybody elses fault for being antsy and on edge, and distrusting of the government and the medical establishment?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ghostmaker on December 01, 2021, 03:39:25 PM
Yes I know it's paid by taxes, I said that when I first raised that issue and spoke about that part of this issue. Can we stop playing fucking games with people's context to pretend they mean something other than what they've actually said?

I could apply the same thing to your phrasing. Say 'subsidized' instead of 'free'.

Let me see if I have this straight. You think the President's press  secretary always tells the truth, never spins stuff, never lies, never leaves stuff out, and is a good source of information on the laws of our nation. Is that your position?

Is your position that the Presidents secratary is a lying manipulator thats threatening people into forced vaccination (with a wobbly rate of effectiveness that doesn't stop sickness or transmission) by threat of extortion (instead of just the much nicer reality of putting them more in debt) for a mandetory verification system (also very unreliable), is somehow the GOOD reality?

"Threatening people is OK as long as you don't really mean it". And somehow its everybody elses fault for being antsy and on edge, and distrusting of the government and the medical establishment?
I'm almost tempted to unblock Misty so I don't have to get these hot takes second hand. This is downright deranged troll logic at its finest.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on December 01, 2021, 03:51:15 PM
Of course some people have no health insurance - it's covered for free even in that instance too and that's right there in the law.

You're claiming they will change the law to comply with your world view of how it works. Which is complete nonsense. UNTIL the law is changed - and NOBODY so far has even mentioned the possibility of changing that law - your view of how it works was wrong. But instead of admitting you were wrong, you are personally attacking me and ranting nonsense about how they will magically change the law or break the law to match how you thought it already works but doesn't.

What does it take for you to admit you were wrong, other than an actual law showing you were wrong? I mean if that isn't enough, I am seriously asking what level of evidence it would take for you to admit you were mistaken?
Jen Pisaki is NOBODY?

I literally cited the president's spokesperson. You acknowledged that. You said she was wrong to say that. I also cited a clear pattern showing how the administration has constantly gone back on their word, and are continually moving the goalposts in the direction of coercion. And yet you're denying that, just like how one post back you were denying that some people lack healthcare insurance.

You're not just wrong, you're completely irrational. You're literally posting claims that completely contradict points you addressed and agreed to just a couple posts ago. You've turned into a creepy stalker obsessed with randomly insulting me, randomly making up shit about me, and above all proving me wrong, even if you have absolutely no grounds, and it's all because you flipped out when I called you out on your dishonest, bullshit tactics a few weeks ago.

Grow the the hell up.

Let me see if I have this straight. You think the President's press  secretary always tells the truth, never spins stuff, never lies, never leaves stuff out, and is a good source of information on the laws of our nation. Is that your position?

Because if it's not, would you stop with the "I am going to bash the President as a liar when it's convenient for my belief system, and cite the President as a truth teller when it's convenient for my belief system, and ignore any evidence contrary to my belief system" nonsense?

She's lying or spinning or incorrect. WHICH IS A VERY COMMON THING FOR PRESS SECRETARIES. In any other thread about Biden's press secretary you'd agree with me she's not a reliable source of information. I've cited the law to you, you've failed to raise a single person on congress even advocating the possibility to hinting at changing the law, so where is your evidence the law will be changed aside from citing someone who in any other conversation you'd agree is unreliable as a source?
Let me see if I got this straight. The spokesperson for the administration said something...

... and you think it's completely unreasonable for anyone to be concerned about what she said, and that instead we should automatically dismiss it, even though what she said fits perfectly with with the administration's pattern of behavior.

Holy shit that's insane logic.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on December 01, 2021, 04:19:31 PM
Yes I know it's paid by taxes, I said that when I first raised that issue and spoke about that part of this issue. Can we stop playing fucking games with people's context to pretend they mean something other than what they've actually said?

I could apply the same thing to your phrasing. Say 'subsidized' instead of 'free'.

Let me see if I have this straight. You think the President's press  secretary always tells the truth, never spins stuff, never lies, never leaves stuff out, and is a good source of information on the laws of our nation. Is that your position?

Is your position that the Presidents secratary is a lying manipulator thats threatening people into forced vaccination (with a wobbly rate of effectiveness that doesn't stop sickness or transmission) by threat of extortion (instead of just the much nicer reality of putting them more in debt) for a mandetory verification system (also very unreliable), is somehow the GOOD reality?

"Threatening people is OK as long as you don't really mean it". And somehow its everybody elses fault for being antsy and on edge, and distrusting of the government and the medical establishment?

I DID say subsidized instead of free when we were discussing it earlier. Your lazy fucking ass didn't read the discussion you were jumping into and apparently didn't even see the context. Which I guess is better than intentionally misrepresenting it. I can at least identify with lazy. :)

Threatening people is not OK. Again, you're jumping into a conversation which you have not really read. I've responded to that aspect as well.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on December 01, 2021, 04:22:08 PM
Of course some people have no health insurance - it's covered for free even in that instance too and that's right there in the law.

You're claiming they will change the law to comply with your world view of how it works. Which is complete nonsense. UNTIL the law is changed - and NOBODY so far has even mentioned the possibility of changing that law - your view of how it works was wrong. But instead of admitting you were wrong, you are personally attacking me and ranting nonsense about how they will magically change the law or break the law to match how you thought it already works but doesn't.

What does it take for you to admit you were wrong, other than an actual law showing you were wrong? I mean if that isn't enough, I am seriously asking what level of evidence it would take for you to admit you were mistaken?
Jen Pisaki is NOBODY?

I literally cited the president's spokesperson. You acknowledged that. You said she was wrong to say that. I also cited a clear pattern showing how the administration has constantly gone back on their word, and are continually moving the goalposts in the direction of coercion. And yet you're denying that, just like how one post back you were denying that some people lack healthcare insurance.

You're not just wrong, you're completely irrational. You're literally posting claims that completely contradict points you addressed and agreed to just a couple posts ago. You've turned into a creepy stalker obsessed with randomly insulting me, randomly making up shit about me, and above all proving me wrong, even if you have absolutely no grounds, and it's all because you flipped out when I called you out on your dishonest, bullshit tactics a few weeks ago.

Grow the the hell up.

Let me see if I have this straight. You think the President's press  secretary always tells the truth, never spins stuff, never lies, never leaves stuff out, and is a good source of information on the laws of our nation. Is that your position?

Because if it's not, would you stop with the "I am going to bash the President as a liar when it's convenient for my belief system, and cite the President as a truth teller when it's convenient for my belief system, and ignore any evidence contrary to my belief system" nonsense?

She's lying or spinning or incorrect. WHICH IS A VERY COMMON THING FOR PRESS SECRETARIES. In any other thread about Biden's press secretary you'd agree with me she's not a reliable source of information. I've cited the law to you, you've failed to raise a single person on congress even advocating the possibility to hinting at changing the law, so where is your evidence the law will be changed aside from citing someone who in any other conversation you'd agree is unreliable as a source?
Let me see if I got this straight. The spokesperson for the administration said something...

... and you think it's completely unreasonable for anyone to be concerned about what she said, and that instead we should automatically dismiss it, even though what she said fits perfectly with with the administration's pattern of behavior.

Holy shit that's insane logic.

Oh you can "concern" all you want. But we're not addressing your personal concerns. Your concerns are fine. But it's not your concerns we were talking about, were we. If was your misstatement of fact which we were discussing. This is yet another attempt by you to weasel out of admitting you were deeply wrong on this topic, and now suddenly it's just your personal concerns you were expressing of a worry for the future? What nonsense. We can all read what you wrote earlier, and that isn't what you were saying.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on December 01, 2021, 04:31:48 PM
Of course some people have no health insurance - it's covered for free even in that instance too and that's right there in the law.

You're claiming they will change the law to comply with your world view of how it works. Which is complete nonsense. UNTIL the law is changed - and NOBODY so far has even mentioned the possibility of changing that law - your view of how it works was wrong. But instead of admitting you were wrong, you are personally attacking me and ranting nonsense about how they will magically change the law or break the law to match how you thought it already works but doesn't.

What does it take for you to admit you were wrong, other than an actual law showing you were wrong? I mean if that isn't enough, I am seriously asking what level of evidence it would take for you to admit you were mistaken?
Jen Pisaki is NOBODY?

I literally cited the president's spokesperson. You acknowledged that. You said she was wrong to say that. I also cited a clear pattern showing how the administration has constantly gone back on their word, and are continually moving the goalposts in the direction of coercion. And yet you're denying that, just like how one post back you were denying that some people lack healthcare insurance.

You're not just wrong, you're completely irrational. You're literally posting claims that completely contradict points you addressed and agreed to just a couple posts ago. You've turned into a creepy stalker obsessed with randomly insulting me, randomly making up shit about me, and above all proving me wrong, even if you have absolutely no grounds, and it's all because you flipped out when I called you out on your dishonest, bullshit tactics a few weeks ago.

Grow the the hell up.

Let me see if I have this straight. You think the President's press  secretary always tells the truth, never spins stuff, never lies, never leaves stuff out, and is a good source of information on the laws of our nation. Is that your position?

Because if it's not, would you stop with the "I am going to bash the President as a liar when it's convenient for my belief system, and cite the President as a truth teller when it's convenient for my belief system, and ignore any evidence contrary to my belief system" nonsense?

She's lying or spinning or incorrect. WHICH IS A VERY COMMON THING FOR PRESS SECRETARIES. In any other thread about Biden's press secretary you'd agree with me she's not a reliable source of information. I've cited the law to you, you've failed to raise a single person on congress even advocating the possibility to hinting at changing the law, so where is your evidence the law will be changed aside from citing someone who in any other conversation you'd agree is unreliable as a source?
Let me see if I got this straight. The spokesperson for the administration said something...

... and you think it's completely unreasonable for anyone to be concerned about what she said, and that instead we should automatically dismiss it, even though what she said fits perfectly with with the administration's pattern of behavior.

Holy shit that's insane logic.
People defending Trump often did the same when he said something idiotic and others tried to hold it against him.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on December 01, 2021, 04:36:30 PM
I DID say subsidized instead of free when we were discussing it earlier.
Then you changed your wording back to 'Free'. I just personally cannot stand anything being called free unless its actually free.

What I meant is that even if Pat is incorrect, him feeling threatened by the press secratary (as a reprasentative of the current establishment) I think is a pretty reasonable response. Even if the Policeman didn't end up actually breaking your legs, the fact that he keeps doing it points to a deeply untrustworthy system.

There is a massive demand for hoop jumping for rules the establishment doesn't enforce equally and are of questionable effectiveness, which gets more and more questionable with each variant and are still a massive resource sink. There is a massive amount of mixed information that points to allot of mixed factors. So people are very reasonable in not feeling confident in the proposed solutions (which have no promises to be effective for the future anyway).

I don't think the vaccine is causing COVID, but I think its by and large generally a very expensive placebo.
People defending Trump often did the same when he said something idiotic and others tried to hold it against him.
The difference is that he had a media establishment seething at his every breath to the point that what was idiotic, a genuine threat, and just made up lies or exagerations from the media became very difficult to tell for even a person that was meh on the man.

But yes, every side will play defense for their king, even if doing bad things out of fear of loosing the game.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: jhkim on December 01, 2021, 05:00:53 PM
People defending Trump often did the same when he said something idiotic and others tried to hold it against him.
The difference is that he had a media establishment seething at his every breath to the point that what was idiotic, a genuine threat, and just made up lies or exagerations from the media became very difficult to tell for even a person that was meh on the man.

But yes, every side will play defense for their king, even if doing bad things out of fear of loosing the game.

While he was president, one could easily read Trump's Twitter feed directly, without any interpretation by the media. So I don't think it was difficult to distinguish media exaggerations from what he really said.

Speaking of which, does anyone have a link for the exact quote of what Jen Psaki said about people having to pay for covid tests? I tried to search for it briefly but didn't see anything that fit.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Shasarak on December 01, 2021, 05:05:44 PM
People defending Trump often did the same when he said something idiotic and others tried to hold it against him.

But what about Trump!
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on December 01, 2021, 05:16:41 PM
Oh you can "concern" all you want. But we're not addressing your personal concerns. Your concerns are fine. But it's not your concerns we were talking about, were we. If was your misstatement of fact which we were discussing. This is yet another attempt by you to weasel out of admitting you were deeply wrong on this topic, and now suddenly it's just your personal concerns you were expressing of a worry for the future? What nonsense. We can all read what you wrote earlier, and that isn't what you were saying.
That doesn't even make sense. Congratulations, your brain has left you for cuckooland.

Protip: If you're so desperate to prove me wrong, then find some place where I was wrong, and then point it out. Don't just put together a word salad of nonsense that has nothing to do with what I said, and then try to claim victory.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on December 01, 2021, 05:20:02 PM
I DID say subsidized instead of free when we were discussing it earlier.
Then you changed your wording back to 'Free'. I just personally cannot stand anything being called free unless its actually free.
Imagine if there was truth in advertising, when it came to government agencies and bills. We'd have to drop a lot of words, like Affordable, Patriot, Care, Infrastructure, Intelligence, Welfare, and so on.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on December 01, 2021, 05:42:12 PM
People defending Trump often did the same when he said something idiotic and others tried to hold it against him.
The difference is that he had a media establishment seething at his every breath to the point that what was idiotic, a genuine threat, and just made up lies or exagerations from the media became very difficult to tell for even a person that was meh on the man.

But yes, every side will play defense for their king, even if doing bad things out of fear of loosing the game.

While he was president, one could easily read Trump's Twitter feed directly, without any interpretation by the media. So I don't think it was difficult to distinguish media exaggerations from what he really said.

Speaking of which, does anyone have a link for the exact quote of what Jen Psaki said about people having to pay for covid tests? I tried to search for it briefly but didn't see anything that fit.
https://www.cnsnews.com/article/washington/melanie-arter/reporter-who-will-pay-mandatory-weekly-covid-tests-businesses

NBC news said a lot of businesses were concerned about the costs of the tests, because it was a "costly liability". Pisaki never explicitly addressed that, but instead kept replying that the vaccines were free, which is a tacit admission the tests have a cost. She then explicitly said it would "be more cost effective to require the vaccines", with the obvious implication that the tests wouldn't be free. She also answered a question about whether it would be up to the business to choose whether to "swallow those costs" with a firm "correct".
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on December 01, 2021, 06:02:09 PM
People defending Trump often did the same when he said something idiotic and others tried to hold it against him.
The difference is that he had a media establishment seething at his every breath to the point that what was idiotic, a genuine threat, and just made up lies or exagerations from the media became very difficult to tell for even a person that was meh on the man.

But yes, every side will play defense for their king, even if doing bad things out of fear of loosing the game.

While he was president, one could easily read Trump's Twitter feed directly, without any interpretation by the media. So I don't think it was difficult to distinguish media exaggerations from what he really said.

Speaking of which, does anyone have a link for the exact quote of what Jen Psaki said about people having to pay for covid tests? I tried to search for it briefly but didn't see anything that fit.
https://www.cnsnews.com/article/washington/melanie-arter/reporter-who-will-pay-mandatory-weekly-covid-tests-businesses

NBC news said a lot of businesses were concerned about the costs of the tests, because it was a "costly liability". Pisaki never explicitly addressed that, but instead kept replying that the vaccines were free, which is a tacit admission the tests have a cost. She then explicitly said it would "be more cost effective to require the vaccines", with the obvious implication that the tests wouldn't be free. She also answered a question about whether it would be up to the business to choose whether to "swallow those costs" with a firm "correct".
Consider that part of that cost effectiveness is going to be based on the non-clinical administrative costs. It's a lot easier (and cheaper) to mark in a proof of vaccination--even with boosters--than to schedule and record tests on a regular basis. The latter is also more likely to lead to lost work time (unless it must be done outside of normal work hours, but that can get ugly too).
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on December 01, 2021, 07:22:33 PM
While he was president, one could easily read Trump's Twitter feed directly, without any interpretation by the media.
From the tweets I did see Trump use, he was prone to excageration, oversimplification, and finger pointing. But I don't have a twitter and I didn't follow him.

Butwhatabout-ism won't change what is happening right now. If Trump demanded people comply with vaccines with threats, and I heard about it - you bet I would be upset about it as well.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: jhkim on December 01, 2021, 08:01:56 PM
Speaking of which, does anyone have a link for the exact quote of what Jen Psaki said about people having to pay for covid tests? I tried to search for it briefly but didn't see anything that fit.
https://www.cnsnews.com/article/washington/melanie-arter/reporter-who-will-pay-mandatory-weekly-covid-tests-businesses

NBC news said a lot of businesses were concerned about the costs of the tests, because it was a "costly liability". Pisaki never explicitly addressed that, but instead kept replying that the vaccines were free, which is a tacit admission the tests have a cost. She then explicitly said it would "be more cost effective to require the vaccines", with the obvious implication that the tests wouldn't be free. She also answered a question about whether it would be up to the business to choose whether to "swallow those costs" with a firm "correct".

Thanks, Pat. From that referenced, I've looked through the full briefing here:

https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/press-briefings/2021/09/10/press-briefing-by-press-secretary-jen-psaki-september-10-2021/

That was September 10th. Since then, there has been a fact sheet on the new policies, here:

https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2021/11/04/fact-sheet-biden-administration-announces-details-of-two-major-vaccination-policies/

The latter backs you up, in that it specifies that OSHA will require tests, and "the ETS does not require employers to provide or pay for tests". At the same time, free and/or low-cost tests are widely available, and in the same September press briefing Psaki affirmed continued support of that. So while the administration is certainly looking to push more people to be vaccinated, it seems like it's more through hassle than punitive cost on the employees.

It seems the mandates have been currently blocked in court, though:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/joewalsh/2021/11/30/judge-halts-bidens-covid-vaccine-mandate-for-healthcare-workers-nationwide/
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ratman_tf on December 01, 2021, 08:21:37 PM
People defending Trump often did the same when he said something idiotic and others tried to hold it against him.
The difference is that he had a media establishment seething at his every breath to the point that what was idiotic, a genuine threat, and just made up lies or exagerations from the media became very difficult to tell for even a person that was meh on the man.

But yes, every side will play defense for their king, even if doing bad things out of fear of loosing the game.

While he was president, one could easily read Trump's Twitter feed directly, without any interpretation by the media. So I don't think it was difficult to distinguish media exaggerations from what he really said.

Speaking of which, does anyone have a link for the exact quote of what Jen Psaki said about people having to pay for covid tests? I tried to search for it briefly but didn't see anything that fit.

There are people to this day misquoting Trump due to media manipulation. One could have easily read Trump's twitter feed directly, until they banned him, but it looks like a lot of people don't care. He's Literally Hitler because the media said so, and that's that.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ratman_tf on December 01, 2021, 08:28:30 PM
While he was president, one could easily read Trump's Twitter feed directly, without any interpretation by the media.
From the tweets I did see Trump use, he was prone to excageration, oversimplification, and finger pointing. But I don't have a twitter and I didn't follow him.

Butwhatabout-ism won't change what is happening right now. If Trump demanded people comply with vaccines with threats, and I heard about it - you bet I would be upset about it as well.

I was concerned when Trump started talking about a vaccine. It's taken them years to develop specific vaccines, and we were going to have one before the end of the year? That seemed suspicious as fuck.

I'm all for an experimental vaccine in the face of the pandemic. People can make their own decisions on risk and reward regarding how dangerous Covid is and how safe the vaccinations are. But they want to take that away from us, and use the power of the government to coerce us.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on December 01, 2021, 09:30:48 PM
While he was president, one could easily read Trump's Twitter feed directly, without any interpretation by the media.
From the tweets I did see Trump use, he was prone to excageration, oversimplification, and finger pointing. But I don't have a twitter and I didn't follow him.

Butwhatabout-ism won't change what is happening right now. If Trump demanded people comply with vaccines with threats, and I heard about it - you bet I would be upset about it as well.

I was concerned when Trump started talking about a vaccine. It's taken them years to develop specific vaccines, and we were going to have one before the end of the year? That seemed suspicious as fuck.

I'm all for an experimental vaccine in the face of the pandemic. People can make their own decisions on risk and reward regarding how dangerous Covid is and how safe the vaccinations are. But they want to take that away from us, and use the power of the government to coerce us.

  Things like that have started revolutions in the past.  Wonder how much 'murica is still left in the tank?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: 3catcircus on December 01, 2021, 09:52:52 PM
While he was president, one could easily read Trump's Twitter feed directly, without any interpretation by the media.
From the tweets I did see Trump use, he was prone to excageration, oversimplification, and finger pointing. But I don't have a twitter and I didn't follow him.

Butwhatabout-ism won't change what is happening right now. If Trump demanded people comply with vaccines with threats, and I heard about it - you bet I would be upset about it as well.

I was concerned when Trump started talking about a vaccine. It's taken them years to develop specific vaccines, and we were going to have one before the end of the year? That seemed suspicious as fuck.

I'm all for an experimental vaccine in the face of the pandemic. People can make their own decisions on risk and reward regarding how dangerous Covid is and how safe the vaccinations are. But they want to take that away from us, and use the power of the government to coerce us.

  Things like that have started revolutions in the past.  Wonder how much 'murica is still left in the tank?

Just haven't gotten to critical mass/geometry yet. It's coming.  Luckily, there are still young people like Rittenhouse or Tate Myre who are out there and there are still journalists like Project Veritas.

We *all* can do more to beat back the leftists - whether it's public ridicule if thier fucked up ideas, or escalation into a backhand across the mouth - as a starting point.  We need to expose corruption at every turn, at every level.  Whether it's exposing the political trial of Rittenhouse, reporting the shifty DNC links to BLM and antifa, revealing every elitist who fucked kids in Epstein's jet, throwing the contents of Hunter's laptop on pastebin or sending corrupt CIA and FBI leaders to federal pound you in the ass prison.

It *is* as simple as fighting fire with fire - and you don't have to look any further than Portnoy's posting of DMs from women he allegedly sexually assaulted where they clearly plan hook ups with m and then go and cry that they were abused.  Never apologize, always keep the receipts, and publicly post them at the first sign.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on December 02, 2021, 08:07:26 AM
This is awkward, two studies confirming jabbed "immunity" is inferior to natural:

(https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/7d53e4d110e83520c61a8a5d0bafa26b0d27010e30d7084f367a3ed16c29a727.png?w=600&h=244)

Source: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1027511/Vaccine-surveillance-report-week-42.pdf (that's the UK's official government publication on the jabs)

(https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/6fb733adcef1cc15b9364c4c021e25b94d6429c9d8c537672800fb40d46d8fb7.jpg?w=600&h=60)

Source: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanepe/article/PIIS2666-7762(21)00258-1/fulltext (The Lancet, looking at Israeli data)


Also here's some of Pfizer's test data that they've been given 55 years to release: https://phmpt.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/11/5.3.6-postmarketing-experience.pdf

Jump to page 7 for a summary of adverse events, and pay particular note to page 12 for pregnancy.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on December 02, 2021, 02:50:04 PM
Also awkward - so much for informed consent:

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FFn3sQeWYAgeTjB?format=jpg)
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: GeekyBugle on December 02, 2021, 03:05:37 PM
This is awkward, two studies confirming jabbed "immunity" is inferior to natural:

(https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/7d53e4d110e83520c61a8a5d0bafa26b0d27010e30d7084f367a3ed16c29a727.png?w=600&h=244)

Source: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1027511/Vaccine-surveillance-report-week-42.pdf (that's the UK's official government publication on the jabs)

(https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/6fb733adcef1cc15b9364c4c021e25b94d6429c9d8c537672800fb40d46d8fb7.jpg?w=600&h=60)

Source: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanepe/article/PIIS2666-7762(21)00258-1/fulltext (The Lancet, looking at Israeli data)


Also here's some of Pfizer's test data that they've been given 55 years to release: https://phmpt.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/11/5.3.6-postmarketing-experience.pdf

Jump to page 7 for a summary of adverse events, and pay particular note to page 12 for pregnancy.

México is developing a treatment using horses to get the something from their blood to inject people with so people get better if they catch the kungflu.

Looks like my prediction was on point: You CAN'T develop a vaccine for the kungflu for the same reasons you can't develop one for the common flu, it mutates TOO fast.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: GeekyBugle on December 02, 2021, 03:07:25 PM
Also awkward - so much for informed consent:

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FFn3sQeWYAgeTjB?format=jpg)

Ups, care to provide a link? All my family got the shots and I want to know which one of us is at more risk of this fucking shit.

We need to get Pope Fauci and his accomplices charged with crimes against humanity and then executed.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on December 02, 2021, 03:13:59 PM
Ups, care to provide a link? All my family got the shots and I want to know which one of us is at more risk of this fucking shit.

We need to get Pope Fauci and his accomplices charged with crimes against humanity and then executed.

The guidance itself: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/covid-19-vaccination-myocarditis-and-pericarditis-information-for-healthcare-professionals/information-for-healthcare-professionals-on-myocarditis-and-pericarditis-following-covid-19-vaccination

Essentially the younger you are, the higher your risk. Being male also increases your risk (by a lot).
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: GeekyBugle on December 02, 2021, 03:31:34 PM
Ups, care to provide a link? All my family got the shots and I want to know which one of us is at more risk of this fucking shit.

We need to get Pope Fauci and his accomplices charged with crimes against humanity and then executed.

The guidance itself: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/covid-19-vaccination-myocarditis-and-pericarditis-information-for-healthcare-professionals/information-for-healthcare-professionals-on-myocarditis-and-pericarditis-following-covid-19-vaccination

Essentially the younger you are, the higher your risk. Being male also increases your risk (by a lot).

So when this finally hits the news it will be another "Men droping like flies, Wahmen most affected" type of article?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on December 02, 2021, 03:50:20 PM
  MY guess it will be "risk is minimal", despite the fact if you just do not get the shot and are otherwise healthy, your risk is pretty much zero.  So go figure.  I do wonder what the after report in 5-10 years is going to look like.  I hope there are no long term issues, but reality is this was rolled out while making the makers immune from consequences and then more or less forcing people to take it.  So I do not have great confidence reports down the road are going to be the most transparent.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on December 02, 2021, 04:16:33 PM
So when this finally hits the news it will be another "Men droping like flies, Wahmen most affected" type of article?

Already been reported, just hardly anyone is paying attention: https://www.scimex.org/newsfeed/young-men-are-the-group-most-at-risk-from-myocarditis,-especially-after-the-second-pfizer-jab

  MY guess it will be "risk is minimal", despite the fact if you just do not get the shot and are otherwise healthy, your risk is pretty much zero.  So go figure.  I do wonder what the after report in 5-10 years is going to look like.  I hope there are no long term issues, but reality is this was rolled out while making the makers immune from consequences and then more or less forcing people to take it.  So I do not have great confidence reports down the road are going to be the most transparent.

There are two streams of risk created by the jabs. Firstly, potential damage to the immune system, because they work by tricking part of your response to ignore the spike protein coating of the virus. Unfortunately, that switches off the sterilising immune system for everything else it's supposed to respond to.

Secondly, the spike proteins they make your body produce cause microscopic vascular damage, resulting in microscopic clotting. Which can eventually agglomerate into much bigger clots, see heart attacks, strokes and so on.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on December 07, 2021, 10:12:58 AM
There are two streams of risk created by the jabs. Firstly, potential damage to the immune system, because they work by tricking part of your response to ignore the spike protein coating of the virus. Unfortunately, that switches off the sterilising immune system for everything else it's supposed to respond to.

Once again you prove without a doubt you are the dumbest motherfucker on this message board. That is not, in any way shape or form, what the vaccine does. No rational human being can conclude anything close to that conclusion from any scientific evidence regarding the vaccines. And you will once again link to no scientific evidence whatsoever to support that absurd claim you just made. You will just blather on claiming it's fact when it's totally false, and repeat it later again and again as if it's true despite having zero basis in reality. What a fool you are.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on December 08, 2021, 05:53:43 AM
Once again you prove without a doubt you are the dumbest motherfucker on this message board. That is not, in any way shape or form, what the vaccine does. No rational human being can conclude anything close to that conclusion from any scientific evidence regarding the vaccines. And you will once again link to no scientific evidence whatsoever to support that absurd claim you just made. You will just blather on claiming it's fact when it's totally false, and repeat it later again and again as if it's true despite having zero basis in reality. What a fool you are.

Mistwell, go fuck yourself, you dumb cunt. You don't have a clue, you're just another lawyer who thinks he's smarter than he is. I'm sure you'll be dutifully queuing up for your fourth, fifth and sixth shots, still thinking it's a mystery why your health is deteriorating.

mRNA technology has never been deployed at scale before now and is barely tested. This is not a vaccine, nor is it like any previous ones that were given. But brain-dead mongs like you just love doing as you're told.

I've shared links before demonstrating all the things I'm talking about, but your cognitive dissonance won't allow you to engage with them. So fuck off.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on December 08, 2021, 10:20:49 AM
(https://a.disquscdn.com/get?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmedia.gab.com%2Fsystem%2Fmedia_attachments%2Ffiles%2F092%2F587%2F289%2Foriginal%2F6d17394e5513f6f2.jpg&key=ivMfZOFCpxA5O1hEoXf92A&w=600&h=560)
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: dkabq on December 09, 2021, 11:01:26 AM
Pfizer CEO says fourth Covid vaccine doses may be needed sooner than expected due to omicron
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/12/08/omicron-pfizer-ceo-says-we-may-need-fourth-covid-vaccine-doses-sooner-than-expected.html

Anyone want to bet on when this fuck will say that 5th dose is needed?


Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ghostmaker on December 09, 2021, 11:40:58 AM
Pfizer CEO says fourth Covid vaccine doses may be needed sooner than expected due to omicron
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/12/08/omicron-pfizer-ceo-says-we-may-need-fourth-covid-vaccine-doses-sooner-than-expected.html

Anyone want to bet on when this fuck will say that 5th dose is needed?
Are you kidding? It's boosters all the way down.

This is a fucking grift.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Zelen on December 09, 2021, 12:51:26 PM
The only real question is how many boosters will it take to wake people up, of if the masses are permanently mind-slaved.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on December 09, 2021, 01:03:13 PM
The real question isn't how many boosters, it's whether you sign up for the daily basic booster package, or whether you pay extra for the premium tier with 10% less chance of clotting and myocarditis.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: dkabq on December 09, 2021, 04:56:02 PM

https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/585130-cdc-study-veterans-with-two-mrna-doses-saw-dip-in-antibody-response-after

Worst...vaccine...ever...
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on December 09, 2021, 05:31:35 PM

https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/585130-cdc-study-veterans-with-two-mrna-doses-saw-dip-in-antibody-response-after

Worst...vaccine...ever...
It's the software as a service model, applied to medicine.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: dkabq on December 09, 2021, 06:14:19 PM

https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/585130-cdc-study-veterans-with-two-mrna-doses-saw-dip-in-antibody-response-after

Worst...vaccine...ever...
It's the software as a service model, applied to medicine.

Shitty software
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on December 10, 2021, 05:37:45 AM
The real question isn't how many boosters, it's whether you sign up for the daily basic booster package, or whether you pay extra for the premium tier with 10% less chance of clotting and myocarditis.

Depends whether you get the hot-shot or the (saline) zil-shot. Not sure who fucked up and gave Gavin Newsom the wrong jab.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on December 10, 2021, 08:35:33 AM
This is awkward, from the latest UK stats:

(https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/16beafd944d34095ce36e3809e28b4433836b43298733261909ae90a4c14fbd7.jpg?w=600&h=309)

Keep jabbing!
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on December 10, 2021, 11:41:47 AM
This is awkward, from the latest UK stats:

(https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/16beafd944d34095ce36e3809e28b4433836b43298733261909ae90a4c14fbd7.jpg?w=600&h=309)

Keep jabbing!
Is that deaths from covid, or deaths from all causes?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on December 10, 2021, 12:38:56 PM
Is that deaths from covid, or deaths from all causes?

"With" covid. Those are all covid stats.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: DragonBane on December 10, 2021, 02:13:12 PM
Last time I spoke to Griswald he had a good question.

He and that relative he helps take care of- now she's in the freaking hospital with a collapsed lung yeah he's gonna have a great Christmas- were hit by Covid. After two years.

Millions got the vax. Millions like him got the disease and won, he calls it "vaccination the hard way."

So by now not like 2020 why don't we have good herd immunity instead of always being told about big spikes? If its some new version then how the hell is it EVER going to end and how the hell will things ever go normal again?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: DragonBane on December 10, 2021, 02:15:59 PM
The only real question is how many boosters will it take to wake people up, of if the masses are permanently mind-slaved.


Hahahahahahahahahahahaha.

THAT happened a long time ago man. How the hell do you think we got here?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on December 10, 2021, 02:16:52 PM
Last time I spoke to Griswald he had a good question.

He and that relative he helps take care of- now she's in the freaking hospital with a collapsed lung yeah he's gonna have a great Christmas- were hit by Covid. After two years.

Millions got the vax. Millions like him got the disease and won, he calls it "vaccination the hard way."

So by now not like 2020 why don't we have good herd immunity instead of always being told about big spikes? If its some new version then how the hell is it EVER going to end and how the hell will things ever go normal again?

We've all been repeatedly infected with coronaviruses, that's why we're not dead. Given how mild even the Alpha variant was for anyone under 65 and not obese, it isn't really "vaccination the hard way". Study after study shows natural immunity is significantly more powerful than the anemic "immunity" granted by the jabs.

As to your last point, viruses naturally evolve to be more contagious, but less deadly. Delta was weaker than Alpha. Omicron is a mild cold. Things will only go back to normal when the normies wake up and reject all this bullshit theatre that was never necessary in the first place.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on December 10, 2021, 02:18:23 PM
The only real question is how many boosters will it take to wake people up, of if the masses are permanently mind-slaved.


Hahahahahahahahahahahaha.

THAT happened a long time ago man. How the hell do you think we got here?

They don't even know how many boosters there will be:

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FGQtmfJXoAM2wMk?format=jpg&name=small)

Did anyone catch that evil bitch Ardern saying vaccination never ends?

Yet there are guillible morons who will believe this shit:

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FGQsxmbXIBAHpZb?format=jpg&name=small)
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: DragonBane on December 10, 2021, 02:19:59 PM
Last time I spoke to Griswald he had a good question.

He and that relative he helps take care of- now she's in the freaking hospital with a collapsed lung yeah he's gonna have a great Christmas- were hit by Covid. After two years.

Millions got the vax. Millions like him got the disease and won, he calls it "vaccination the hard way."

So by now not like 2020 why don't we have good herd immunity instead of always being told about big spikes? If its some new version then how the hell is it EVER going to end and how the hell will things ever go normal again?

Another thing he told me- it ain't the same. He's in his freaking fifties and seen things go down the toilet.

He said when the polio and measles vaccines came out the idea was to help people. Yeah the companies wanted money but back then there was the idea you had responsibilty to people. Now it's just about making money so all you see on tv are commercials pushing drugs for freaking ANYTHING. "The whole mindset has changed" he said, and man was he right.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: DragonBane on December 10, 2021, 02:20:33 PM
Last time I spoke to Griswald he had a good question.

He and that relative he helps take care of- now she's in the freaking hospital with a collapsed lung yeah he's gonna have a great Christmas- were hit by Covid. After two years.

Millions got the vax. Millions like him got the disease and won, he calls it "vaccination the hard way."

So by now not like 2020 why don't we have good herd immunity instead of always being told about big spikes? If its some new version then how the hell is it EVER going to end and how the hell will things ever go normal again?

Another thing he told me- it ain't the same. He's in his freaking fifties and seen things go down the toilet.

He said when the polio and measles vaccines came out the idea was to help people. Yeah the companies wanted money but back then there was the idea you had responsibilty to people. Now it's just about making money so all you see on tv are commercials pushing drugs for freaking ANYTHING. "The whole mindset has changed" he said, and man was he right.


What the hell happened here?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: DragonBane on December 10, 2021, 02:23:45 PM
Last time I spoke to Griswald he had a good question.

He and that relative he helps take care of- now she's in the freaking hospital with a collapsed lung yeah he's gonna have a great Christmas- were hit by Covid. After two years.

Millions got the vax. Millions like him got the disease and won, he calls it "vaccination the hard way."

So by now not like 2020 why don't we have good herd immunity instead of always being told about big spikes? If its some new version then how the hell is it EVER going to end and how the hell will things ever go normal again?

We've all been repeatedly infected with coronaviruses, that's why we're not dead. Given how mild even the Alpha variant was for anyone under 65 and not obese, it isn't really "vaccination the hard way". Study after study shows natural immunity is significantly more powerful than the anemic "immunity" granted by the jabs.

As to your last point, viruses naturally evolve to be more contagious, but less deadly. Delta was weaker than Alpha. Omicron is a mild cold. Things will only go back to normal when the normies wake up and reject all this bullshit theatre that was never necessary in the first place.


Except it had him down for days, is killing his mother, and made him think he was walking down fields with old deserted houses from his past or truck stops far away. And he ain't no wimp, not someone who shovels heavy snow for ten hours straight. AND as he said its a MANMADE disease so the normal rules don't count.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on December 10, 2021, 06:52:41 PM
Meanwhile in fascist Austria, once their mandatory vax law comes in, anyone over the age of 14 will be fined up to $4000 a month if they refuse to get jabbed: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-11-22/vaccine-holdouts-face-4-000-fine-in-austria-s-virus-crackdown
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Naburimannu on December 11, 2021, 06:30:01 AM
This is awkward, from the latest UK stats:

(https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/16beafd944d34095ce36e3809e28b4433836b43298733261909ae90a4c14fbd7.jpg?w=600&h=309)

Keep jabbing!

Or, you know, you could look at the data; it's easy to choose statistical summaries in ways that make things look worse than they are.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1037987/Vaccine-surveillance-report-week-48.pdf

Page 33: yes, the total number of deaths in the UK is higher among vaccinated people than unvaccinated. STRONGLY DOMINATED by people who are 80+. Nearly 95% of the population at that age is vaccinated (page 16), yet the unvaccinated people are dying four or five times faster.

Half of my family currently has COVID, here in North London. I'm glad all those who can be vaccinated are as vaccinated as they can be. And even though I'm still testing negative, I'm avoiding long-awaited meetings with 70+-year-old friends tomorrow because we'd be in high-risk situations and their double-vaccinations are no guarantee.

If anything that statistical summary understates or homogenises the prevalence of the disease: page 34 seems to be reporting a rate of less than 3% in the under-18 population, but there are multiple schools near us where children too young to be vaccinated are 30% or more out of class with PCR-confirmed COVID over the last few weeks.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: dkabq on December 11, 2021, 07:37:45 AM
I liked this (p28, and in many of the table notes):

"Individuals in risk groups may also be more at risk of hospitalisation or death due to non-COVID-19 causes, and thus may be hospitalised or die with COVID-19 rather than from COVID-19."

You were a conspiracy kook if you said that the covid death counts were overestimated due to counting "dying with covid" in with "dying from covid". 

As for kids, covid and PRC testing, without knowing the number of cycles, you cannot estimate how many of those positive tests are false positives.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on December 12, 2021, 08:54:05 AM
I liked this (p28, and in many of the table notes):

"Individuals in risk groups may also be more at risk of hospitalisation or death due to non-COVID-19 causes, and thus may be hospitalised or die with COVID-19 rather than from COVID-19."

You were a conspiracy kook if you said that the covid death counts were overestimated due to counting "dying with covid" in with "dying from covid". 

As for kids, covid and PRC testing, without knowing the number of cycles, you cannot estimate how many of those positive tests are false positives.

All the PCR tests in this country are done at 40-45 cycles. The false positive rate is huge (circa 93%).
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on December 12, 2021, 08:57:49 AM
Or, you know, you could look at the data; it's easy to choose statistical summaries in ways that make things look worse than they are.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1037987/Vaccine-surveillance-report-week-48.pdf

Page 33: yes, the total number of deaths in the UK is higher among vaccinated people than unvaccinated. STRONGLY DOMINATED by people who are 80+. Nearly 95% of the population at that age is vaccinated (page 16), yet the unvaccinated people are dying four or five times faster.

Half of my family currently has COVID, here in North London. I'm glad all those who can be vaccinated are as vaccinated as they can be. And even though I'm still testing negative, I'm avoiding long-awaited meetings with 70+-year-old friends tomorrow because we'd be in high-risk situations and their double-vaccinations are no guarantee.

If anything that statistical summary understates or homogenises the prevalence of the disease: page 34 seems to be reporting a rate of less than 3% in the under-18 population, but there are multiple schools near us where children too young to be vaccinated are 30% or more out of class with PCR-confirmed COVID over the last few weeks.

Most of the "unvaccinated" in the 80+ age group are terminally ill people who couldn't be jabbed, and likely contracted covid in hospital as an irrelevant aside to whatever actually killed them.

So you're an idiot who keeps pretending the sniffles are a deadly plague that merit completely changing the way you live. I'm curious, did you do this in the flu season of 2017/18?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Naburimannu on December 12, 2021, 02:35:12 PM
All the PCR tests in this country are done at 40-45 cycles. The false positive rate is huge (circa 93%).

Citation? Public Health England says false positive rate is negligible: 1 in 20,000 (https://blog.ons.gov.uk/2021/04/09/accuracy-and-confidence-why-we-trust-the-data-from-the-covid-19-infection-survey/). I've seen external numbers claiming much higher, although still not enough to make a difference to any of our conclusions ("estimated at between 0.8% and 4.3%"), and where I found them they weren't backed up with data.

And no, COVID is not the sniffles; my family doesn't have bad cases, but I personally know at least two people who have had permanent lung damage and more than two who've had really nasty sidelined-for-weeks intensity infections.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on December 12, 2021, 02:45:18 PM
Citation? Public Health England says false positive rate is negligible: 1 in 20,000 (https://blog.ons.gov.uk/2021/04/09/accuracy-and-confidence-why-we-trust-the-data-from-the-covid-19-infection-survey/). I've seen external numbers claiming much higher, although still not enough to make a difference to any of our conclusions ("estimated at between 0.8% and 4.3%"), and where I found them they weren't backed up with data.

And no, COVID is not the sniffles; my family doesn't have bad cases, but I personally know at least two people who have had permanent lung damage and more than two who've had really nasty sidelined-for-weeks intensity infections.

Every single Freedom of Information request for the cycle threshold comes back the same: 40 or 45 cycles. Anything over 34 produces garbage. The proper rate is 20.

I've had covid twice, nasty colds in both cases. For the overwhelming majority of people, it's the sniffles.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on December 12, 2021, 02:48:59 PM
Covid has been a wash. It infected my young sister and made her sick with the equivalent of the flu for a week.
But it also infected my dad and gave him some serious breathing issues for a while. He was vaccinated.
We also do know of people that died from covid, and if not died, where seriously harmed by it. Especially in less developed countries.

The seriousness of covid Im not objecting too. Its the flimsiness of the vaccines. All this money poured into something that 'theoretically' makes it better, but not to a degree where we can stop doing all the things we where doing before and will have to take new shots every 2 months to account for variants that spring up extremly fast.

Big pharma was a thing we all knew about, but now that suddenly that same big pharma is selling flimsy cures, lets bend over and become police states?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: dkabq on December 14, 2021, 01:40:56 PM
https://twitter.com/KonstantinKisin/status/1470445614475485192

My grandfather died WITH his wife by his side. I tried to explain to the authorities that this doesn't mean he died OF his wife but it was 2021 so they prosecuted her anyway.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: dkabq on December 17, 2021, 06:16:43 AM
https://www.reuters.com/world/refugees-lack-covid-shots-because-drugmakers-fear-lawsuits-documents-2021-12-16/

So the vaccines are too risky to give without government indemnification.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: dkabq on December 17, 2021, 07:01:02 AM
Any lie is acceptable if it supports the narrative:
https://www.mediaite.com/news/twitter-to-penalize-users-who-claim-vaccinated-people-can-spread-covid-19/
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on December 17, 2021, 12:07:56 PM
https://www.reuters.com/world/refugees-lack-covid-shots-because-drugmakers-fear-lawsuits-documents-2021-12-16/

So the vaccines are too risky to give without government indemnification.

Stateless people have more protections than citizens who are paying taxes and belong to a state. Incredible.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on December 17, 2021, 05:08:12 PM
https://www.reuters.com/world/refugees-lack-covid-shots-because-drugmakers-fear-lawsuits-documents-2021-12-16/

So the vaccines are too risky to give without government indemnification.

Stateless people have more protections than citizens who are paying taxes and belong to a state. Incredible.
If you're jealous, become a refugee and walk in their shoes for a few years.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on December 17, 2021, 06:42:18 PM
If you're jealous, become a refugee and walk in their shoes for a few years.

You're nothing if not consistent in reaching entirely the wrong conclusion. Bravo.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ratman_tf on December 18, 2021, 01:32:00 AM
Any lie is acceptable if it supports the narrative:
https://www.mediaite.com/news/twitter-to-penalize-users-who-claim-vaccinated-people-can-spread-covid-19/

WELL I GUESS I'LL GO GET VACCINATED NOW BECAUSE THEY LIED ENOUGH.

Fuckin wankstains.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on December 18, 2021, 05:46:14 AM
Has anyone noticed the incredible irony of the title of this thread? That is exactly where they are in Australia, and where most of continental Europe are heading soon.

Canada want unvaccinated foreigners to leave by the end of February.

Meanwhile it's rumoured the UK government is now planning a two week "circuit breaker" lockdown after Christmas with restrictions only being lifted if enough people get jabbed. They can get fucked.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: 3catcircus on December 18, 2021, 06:54:16 PM
Has anyone noticed the incredible irony of the title of this thread? That is exactly where they are in Australia, and where most of continental Europe are heading soon.

Canada want unvaccinated foreigners to leave by the end of February.

Meanwhile it's rumoured the UK government is now planning a two week "circuit breaker" lockdown after Christmas with restrictions only being lifted if enough people get jabbed. They can get fucked.

With this latest variant, if it is as mild as is claimed, everyone who can ought to get infected, suck it up for two weeks of the sniffles, and go on about their lives.  Karens trying to demand to see their papers should just get a figurative (or literal, if needed) punch in the mouth in response from everyone.  Of course, that's easier in the US where we've got the ability to deal with rogue government with more than just strong words.

As an aside, a pub in NY refused to let a NYC health inspector in to see peoples' vaccination cards - because she refused to show her card first...  Exactly what everyone else ought to be doing to these health gestapo cunts.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on December 18, 2021, 08:03:36 PM
With this latest variant, if it is as mild as is claimed, everyone who can ought to get infected, suck it up for two weeks of the sniffles, and go on about their lives.  Karens trying to demand to see their papers should just get a figurative (or literal, if needed) punch in the mouth in response from everyone.  Of course, that's easier in the US where we've got the ability to deal with rogue government with more than just strong words.

As an aside, a pub in NY refused to let a NYC health inspector in to see peoples' vaccination cards - because she refused to show her card first...  Exactly what everyone else ought to be doing to these health gestapo cunts.

The UK government's "doubling every two days" narrative has already fallen apart mere days after they said it. "Cases" are falling again. Meanwhile only the most rabid vaxholes are queuing up to get their third jab, and the unjabbed like me aren't the least bit interested in their pathetic attempts at coercion.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on December 21, 2021, 08:14:55 AM
Meanwhile in fascist Austria: https://www-blick-ch.translate.goog/ausland/wegen-impfpflicht-ab-februar-oesterreich-sucht-angestellte-die-impf-verweigerer-jagen-id17087556.html?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en-GB

They're hiring refusenik hunters.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on December 21, 2021, 10:21:33 AM
More awkward real life data: https://twitter.com/chaxie/status/1473239327341785092

"For my London clinic, those aged <50y and vaccinated are nearly 6 times more likely to be Covid +ve in December 2021 than their unvaccinated peers:"

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FHH_W9jXsAAXhYC?format=jpg&name=small)

Shows that it's working, right?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: dkabq on December 21, 2021, 10:46:56 AM
More awkward real life data: https://twitter.com/chaxie/status/1473239327341785092

"For my London clinic, those aged <50y and vaccinated are nearly 6 times more likely to be Covid +ve in December 2021 than their unvaccinated peers:"

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FHH_W9jXsAAXhYC?format=jpg&name=small)

Shows that it's working, right?

What is "covid +ve"? Specifically the "+ve" part. Thanks.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on December 21, 2021, 11:36:00 AM
What is "covid +ve"? Specifically the "+ve" part. Thanks.

Positive, ie they test positive for covid.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: dkabq on December 21, 2021, 11:51:08 AM
What is "covid +ve"? Specifically the "+ve" part. Thanks.

Positive, ie they test positive for covid.

Where does the denominator come from? General population? Clinic staff? Clinic patients?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on December 21, 2021, 12:28:42 PM
Where does the denominator come from? General population? Clinic staff? Clinic patients?

It's the number of patients in that population, at that clinic.

"Vacc Only" means two doses, "Booster" means three.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: dkabq on December 21, 2021, 09:14:32 PM
Ok. On first blush that is an interesting take-away from the data.

Now, other factors besides age and vax status could be leading to that result need to be examined. Things like vaccine type, comorbidities, economic class, geographic location, sex, race, etc. For example, it could be that people with the vax and vax + booster are sicker (and hence more likely to get vaxxed) than no vac people.

The correct response to the point you raise is for a traceable and transparent analysis to be performed. Instead, anyone questioning the narrative is branded a heretic by the cult of St. Fauci.


Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on December 21, 2021, 10:41:50 PM
In the the-government-is-temporarily-being-less-evil category, Biden announced they'll ship 500 million free covid tests to Americans because of omicron fears and his redheaded stepchild of a spokesperson is mildly embarrassed because she mocked the idea just 2 weeks ago.

https://nypost.com/2021/12/21/psaki-regrets-remark-that-became-biden-home-covid-test-policy/
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on December 22, 2021, 06:16:12 AM
This is just what the shills on social media sound like:

(https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/ef747e59023e1ebefca2b23e2d6831ca05641f21e512cf982ebb39f91a3fca80.jpg)
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on December 22, 2021, 08:35:15 AM
More awkward real-world data, from an ONS survey of Omicron infections (https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthandsocialcare/conditionsanddiseases/adhocs/14107coronaviruscovid19infectionsurveyukcharacteristicsrelatedtohavinganomicroncompatibleresultinthosewhotestpositiveforcovid19):

(https://dailysceptic.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/12/221221-Omicron-infection-by-vaxx-status-ONS.jpg)

Four times more likely to be infected if triple-jabbed. Almost as though Omicron evolved specifically in response to the limited immunity the jabs (designed for Alpha, completely obsolete now) provide and now completely bypass it. With added antibody dependent enhancement, that they were warned about before the programs began (which is why the jabbed get infected more frequently).
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on December 22, 2021, 10:06:34 AM
More awkward real-world data, from an ONS survey of Omicron infections (https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthandsocialcare/conditionsanddiseases/adhocs/14107coronaviruscovid19infectionsurveyukcharacteristicsrelatedtohavinganomicroncompatibleresultinthosewhotestpositiveforcovid19):

(https://dailysceptic.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/12/221221-Omicron-infection-by-vaxx-status-ONS.jpg)

Four times more likely to be infected if triple-jabbed. Almost as though Omicron evolved specifically in response to the limited immunity the jabs (designed for Alpha, completely obsolete now) provide and now completely bypass it. With added antibody dependent enhancement, that they were warned about before the programs began (which is why the jabbed get infected more frequently).
That doesn't show what you think it does.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on December 22, 2021, 10:08:38 AM
That doesn't show what you think it does.

It shows exactly what I said. Of people presenting positive PCR tests identified as the Omicron (sniffles minus) variant, the overwhelming majority are jabbed.

Which also jibes with the repeated anecdotes of "I'm triple jabbed, but just got covid".
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on December 22, 2021, 10:39:59 AM
That doesn't show what you think it does.

It shows exactly what I said. Of people presenting positive PCR tests identified as the Omicron (sniffles minus) variant, the overwhelming majority are jabbed.

Which also jibes with the repeated anecdotes of "I'm triple jabbed, but just got covid".
Yes, that is a great half-truth. The rest is that the nonvaccinated tend to show much more of other variants.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on December 22, 2021, 10:54:18 AM
Yes, that is a great half-truth. The rest is that the nonvaccinated tend to show much more of other variants.

That's bollocks, natural immunity is broad spectrum. It's the jabs that only give you a weak response to Alpha, which is now obsolete, having been displaced first by Delta, and now gradually by Omicron.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: 3catcircus on December 22, 2021, 05:20:50 PM
That doesn't show what you think it does.

It shows exactly what I said. Of people presenting positive PCR tests identified as the Omicron (sniffles minus) variant, the overwhelming majority are jabbed.

Which also jibes with the repeated anecdotes of "I'm triple jabbed, but just got covid".
Yes, that is a great half-truth. The rest is that the nonvaccinated tend to show much more of other variants.

No, they don't.  When a particular strain becomes dominant, it's because it has outcompeted all the other strains which fall by the wayside.  Same reason why, come March-ish, COVID will be displaced by rhinovirus as the primary respiratory virus in circulation when it outcompetes flu, adenovirus, PIV, and coronaviruses.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on December 23, 2021, 10:25:00 AM
Incredible that there are people dumb enough to believe that two jabs and they'd go back to normal. Whilst you mugs are getting your "boosters", you'd better be ready for jab number four: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/12/22/britain-consider-fourth-covid-vaccination-israel-germany-press/

Which will be followed by five, and six - are you getting it yet? It's a never-ending carousel, just as having had none I'll never be "fully vaccinated", neither will you no matter how many you've had.

Welcome to Immunity as a Service (which doesn't actually work, but they don't care because you're a subscriber). And if that wasn't funny enough, I've seen one article today saying the jabs don't provide any protection for the first two weeks, and another one that the "protection" wanes after six. Welcome to 9 jabs a year!
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Zelen on December 23, 2021, 12:42:02 PM
No one has mentioned yet how Omicron is yet another byproduct of gain-of-function research?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Daztur on December 23, 2021, 04:34:33 PM
Incredible that there are people dumb enough to believe that two jabs and they'd go back to normal. Whilst you mugs are getting your "boosters", you'd better be ready for jab number four: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/12/22/britain-consider-fourth-covid-vaccination-israel-germany-press/

Which will be followed by five, and six - are you getting it yet? It's a never-ending carousel, just as having had none I'll never be "fully vaccinated", neither will you no matter how many you've had.

Welcome to Immunity as a Service (which doesn't actually work, but they don't care because you're a subscriber). And if that wasn't funny enough, I've seen one article today saying the jabs don't provide any protection for the first two weeks, and another one that the "protection" wanes after six. Welcome to 9 jabs a year!

Oh noes, I will suffer mild arm pain every year just like the flu shot, whatever will I do?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on December 23, 2021, 04:43:14 PM
Oh noes, I will suffer mild arm pain every year just like the flu shot, whatever will I do?

Ignorance is bliss. Good luck with your cumulative damage.

And it won't be "every year", it'll be every season. You're prepared for 4 covid shots a year, every year until you die, right?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on December 23, 2021, 04:50:18 PM
More awkward real-world data, from an ONS survey of Omicron infections (https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthandsocialcare/conditionsanddiseases/adhocs/14107coronaviruscovid19infectionsurveyukcharacteristicsrelatedtohavinganomicroncompatibleresultinthosewhotestpositiveforcovid19):

(https://dailysceptic.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/12/221221-Omicron-infection-by-vaxx-status-ONS.jpg)

Four times more likely to be infected if triple-jabbed. Almost as though Omicron evolved specifically in response to the limited immunity the jabs (designed for Alpha, completely obsolete now) provide and now completely bypass it. With added antibody dependent enhancement, that they were warned about before the programs began (which is why the jabbed get infected more frequently).

psst. that image is not on that link. And the Daily Skeptic is run by a pro-eugenics guy (Toby Young).
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: jhkim on December 23, 2021, 05:31:20 PM
More awkward real-world data, from an ONS survey of Omicron infections (https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthandsocialcare/conditionsanddiseases/adhocs/14107coronaviruscovid19infectionsurveyukcharacteristicsrelatedtohavinganomicroncompatibleresultinthosewhotestpositiveforcovid19):

Four times more likely to be infected if triple-jabbed. Almost as though Omicron evolved specifically in response to the limited immunity the jabs (designed for Alpha, completely obsolete now) provide and now completely bypass it. With added antibody dependent enhancement, that they were warned about before the programs began (which is why the jabbed get infected more frequently).

psst. that image is not on that link

Strictly speaking, the data on the image is on the link. There is an Excel download at that link, and there is data on tab 1b that spreadsheet which corresponds to the image. Here's the link written out:

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthandsocialcare/conditionsanddiseases/adhocs/14107coronaviruscovid19infectionsurveyukcharacteristicsrelatedtohavinganomicroncompatibleresultinthosewhotestpositiveforcovid19

I don't have the full context to interpret that data, though -- notably, what are the characteristics of the sample. The conclusion in the "Results" tab of the spreadsheet says:

Quote
Vaccination status: Those who have received three doses of a vaccine and test positive for COVID-19 are more likely to be infected with infections compatible with the Omicron variant compared with those who are unvaccinated, though individuals who had received at least one dose of a COVID-19 vaccine continued to be less likely to test positive for COVID-19, regardless of variant. It is too early to draw conclusions from our data on the effectiveness of vaccines against the Omicron variant.

Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Daztur on December 23, 2021, 08:39:12 PM
Oh noes, I will suffer mild arm pain every year just like the flu shot, whatever will I do?

And it won't be "every year", it'll be every season. You're prepared for 4 covid shots a year, every year until you die, right?

Don't threaten me with a good time. Where I live the official policy is minimum 5 months maximum 6 months. Shortening that to four months would be wonderful. I have pretty much a 0% chance of dying or having anything serious happen but am pretty serious about long distance trail running and even a small reduction in lung capacity would be horrible.

Why you would think I'd be such a pussy to cry about a needle and a bit of arm soreness I don't understand.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Eirikrautha on December 23, 2021, 10:20:42 PM
Why you would think I'd be such a pussy to cry about a needle and a bit of arm soreness I don't understand.
No one thinks that.  Sheep never cry when they are shorn.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on December 23, 2021, 11:12:50 PM
Why you would think I'd be such a pussy to cry about a needle and a bit of arm soreness I don't understand.
No one thinks that.  Sheep never cry when they are shorn.
We don't need to hear about what you call sex.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on December 24, 2021, 05:48:08 AM
Don't threaten me with a good time. Where I live the official policy is minimum 5 months maximum 6 months. Shortening that to four months would be wonderful. I have pretty much a 0% chance of dying or having anything serious happen but am pretty serious about long distance trail running and even a small reduction in lung capacity would be horrible.

Why you would think I'd be such a pussy to cry about a needle and a bit of arm soreness I don't understand.

You have absolutely no idea when you might get a shot from a bad batch, which simply kills you outright. Nor do you know what the long term effects of mRNA therapy are on your immune system, or when all those micro-clots caused by the spike proteins might agglomerate into a big clot that gives you a heart attack or stroke. If only someone had carried out long-term trials on these therapies before rolling them out to billions...

Says the pussy so scared of the sniffles they allowed themselves to be experimented on. Hilarious how you vaxholes think people don't want the jab because they're scared of needles.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Eirikrautha on December 24, 2021, 09:27:44 PM
Why you would think I'd be such a pussy to cry about a needle and a bit of arm soreness I don't understand.
No one thinks that.  Sheep never cry when they are shorn.
We don't need to hear about what you call sex.
Only you would hear "sheep" and think of sex...
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on December 24, 2021, 09:31:40 PM
Why you would think I'd be such a pussy to cry about a needle and a bit of arm soreness I don't understand.
No one thinks that.  Sheep never cry when they are shorn.
We don't need to hear about what you call sex.
Only you would hear "sheep" and think of sex...
Only when it's from you.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Shasarak on December 25, 2021, 06:30:35 PM
Why you would think I'd be such a pussy to cry about a needle and a bit of arm soreness I don't understand.
No one thinks that.  Sheep never cry when they are shorn.
We don't need to hear about what you call sex.

Hang on, dont be so hasty.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on December 25, 2021, 06:47:42 PM
Why you would think I'd be such a pussy to cry about a needle and a bit of arm soreness I don't understand.
No one thinks that.  Sheep never cry when they are shorn.
We don't need to hear about what you call sex.

Hang on, dont be so hasty.
You're from New Zealand,  right?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Shasarak on December 25, 2021, 09:00:06 PM
Why you would think I'd be such a pussy to cry about a needle and a bit of arm soreness I don't understand.
No one thinks that.  Sheep never cry when they are shorn.
We don't need to hear about what you call sex.

Hang on, dont be so hasty.
You're from New Zealand,  right?

Thats just a coincidence.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on December 26, 2021, 12:23:32 AM
Why you would think I'd be such a pussy to cry about a needle and a bit of arm soreness I don't understand.
No one thinks that.  Sheep never cry when they are shorn.
We don't need to hear about what you call sex.

Hang on, dont be so hasty.
You're from New Zealand,  right?

Thats just a coincidence.
here your use of sarcastic black font gives you away.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on December 26, 2021, 06:52:36 AM
Clownworld intensifies, now they intend to send people door-to-door to coerce us into getting jabbed: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10344567/Door-door-Covid-jab-teams-sent-homes-five-million-unvaccinated-Britons.html

Forget medical confidentiality or informed consent, those concepts are so pre-covid. Luckily for them, they'll only get a piece of my mind if they turn up at my doorstep. I imagine some will react much more violently than that.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: 3catcircus on December 26, 2021, 10:43:46 AM
Clownworld intensifies, now they intend to send people door-to-door to coerce us into getting jabbed: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10344567/Door-door-Covid-jab-teams-sent-homes-five-million-unvaccinated-Britons.html

Forget medical confidentiality or informed consent, those concepts are so pre-covid. Luckily for them, they'll only get a piece of my mind if they turn up at my doorstep. I imagine some will react much more violently than that.

Here in the US, that can't happen.  There will be at least one incident where someone like to be shot by an irate homeowner for trying to cross the threshold when told to fuck off.  The question is which state would it be in - states with "shall issue" gun laws and strong castle doctrine protections or lawless maniac cities run by leftists in Dem-run states like Chicago, LA, or, Portland.  Doesn't matter either way since both hillbillies and gangstas want to be left alone.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: KingCheops on December 26, 2021, 12:08:55 PM
Clownworld intensifies, now they intend to send people door-to-door to coerce us into getting jabbed: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10344567/Door-door-Covid-jab-teams-sent-homes-five-million-unvaccinated-Britons.html

Forget medical confidentiality or informed consent, those concepts are so pre-covid. Luckily for them, they'll only get a piece of my mind if they turn up at my doorstep. I imagine some will react much more violently than that.

Here in the US, that can't happen.  There will be at least one incident where someone like to be shot by an irate homeowner for trying to cross the threshold when told to fuck off.  The question is which state would it be in - states with "shall issue" gun laws and strong castle doctrine protections or lawless maniac cities run by leftists in Dem-run states like Chicago, LA, or, Portland.  Doesn't matter either way since both hillbillies and gangstas want to be left alone.

Democrat run hellholes.  Because some pushy piece of shit white person will think they know better than a black guy and will try something resulting in them getting blown away by the black guy.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: 3catcircus on December 26, 2021, 02:46:58 PM
Clownworld intensifies, now they intend to send people door-to-door to coerce us into getting jabbed: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10344567/Door-door-Covid-jab-teams-sent-homes-five-million-unvaccinated-Britons.html

Forget medical confidentiality or informed consent, those concepts are so pre-covid. Luckily for them, they'll only get a piece of my mind if they turn up at my doorstep. I imagine some will react much more violently than that.

Here in the US, that can't happen.  There will be at least one incident where someone like to be shot by an irate homeowner for trying to cross the threshold when told to fuck off.  The question is which state would it be in - states with "shall issue" gun laws and strong castle doctrine protections or lawless maniac cities run by leftists in Dem-run states like Chicago, LA, or, Portland.  Doesn't matter either way since both hillbillies and gangstas want to be left alone.

Democrat run hellholes.  Because some pushy piece of shit white person will think they know better than a black guy and will try something resulting in them getting blown away by the black guy.

The delicious part will be that the pushy white person will be a raging leftist on a saviour trip thinking they're helping black people while considering them to be incapable of helping themselves.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on December 27, 2021, 12:19:43 AM
Clownworld intensifies, now they intend to send people door-to-door to coerce us into getting jabbed: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10344567/Door-door-Covid-jab-teams-sent-homes-five-million-unvaccinated-Britons.html

Forget medical confidentiality or informed consent, those concepts are so pre-covid. Luckily for them, they'll only get a piece of my mind if they turn up at my doorstep. I imagine some will react much more violently than that.
I saw nothing about using coercion in that article. They're reducing an access barrier for some, and that's it. None of them are storming your castles and forcing people to take the vaccine.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on December 27, 2021, 06:01:03 AM
I saw nothing about using coercion in that article. They're reducing an access barrier for some, and that's it. None of them are storming your castles and forcing people to take the vaccine.

You really are dim, aren't you? Turning up at your door is a breach of medical confidentiality for a start (and is identifying your vaccine status to anyone who happens to be looking out their window or walking past).

There's no "access barrier", anyone who actually wanted to get jabbed has had ample opportunity in the year this programme has been running. It's yet another "nudge" from a government advised by behavioural psychologists.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on December 27, 2021, 09:53:44 AM
I saw nothing about using coercion in that article. They're reducing an access barrier for some, and that's it. None of them are storming your castles and forcing people to take the vaccine.

You really are dim, aren't you? Turning up at your door is a breach of medical confidentiality for a start (and is identifying your vaccine status to anyone who happens to be looking out their window or walking past).

There's no "access barrier", anyone who actually wanted to get jabbed has had ample opportunity in the year this programme has been running. It's yet another "nudge" from a government advised by behavioural psychologists.
Your tinfoil hat is on way too tight. You're seeing conspiracies in everything.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on December 27, 2021, 11:53:13 AM
Your tinfoil hat is on way too tight. You're seeing conspiracies in everything.

Incredible someone as blinkered as you is trusted with other people's safety. Evidently you can't see anything further than what's right in front of you. Nor do you seem to know a great deal about the British government and their advisers. So pardon me if I give your ignorant wittering little credence.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on December 27, 2021, 11:54:57 AM
Article linked by Robert Malone (only one of the inventors of the mRNA technology used by the jabs): https://childrenshealthdefense.org/defender/sharyl-attkisson-steven-gundry-pfizer-moderna-vaccines-heart-attack-risk/

Quote
"We conclude that the mRNA vacs dramatically increase inflammation on the endothelium and T cell infiltration of cardiac muscle and may account for the observations of increased thrombosis, cardiomyopathy, and other vascular events following vaccination"

What was I saying months ago about endothelial damage? Meanwhile in the real world: https://thecovidworld.com/unprecented-three-young-football-players-die-this-week-following-sudden-heart-attacks/

Football players keep dying suddenly.

Quote
Almost every professional team in the world has mandated that their footballers take the vaccine. The timing of these sudden deaths makes the vaccine the prime suspect here.

In an average year, about 9 football players die from cardiac arrest. This year there have been at least 18 deaths, including the three this week, a 100% increase.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: jhkim on December 28, 2021, 04:57:21 PM
Article linked by Robert Malone (only one of the inventors of the mRNA technology used by the jabs): https://childrenshealthdefense.org/defender/sharyl-attkisson-steven-gundry-pfizer-moderna-vaccines-heart-attack-risk/

Quote
"We conclude that the mRNA vacs dramatically increase inflammation on the endothelium and T cell infiltration of cardiac muscle and may account for the observations of increased thrombosis, cardiomyopathy, and other vascular events following vaccination"

What was I saying months ago about endothelial damage?

You're singling out mRNA technology, but according to your source at childrenshealthdefense.org, other vaccines are also dangerous. From the same site:

Quote
Beyond the mercury-based preservative, thimerosal, a known neurotoxin that has been linked to many serious health conditions including autism, vaccines are rife with other often questionable components, such as:
  • Aluminum
  • Antibiotics
  • Egg protein
  • Formaldehyde
  • Monosodium glutamate (MSG)
  • Squalene
  • Gelatin
  • Polysorbate 80
  • Aborted human fetal cell lines
As troubling as each of one these chemicals may be in its own right, parents need to also keep in mind that no studies have been done to determine potential synergistic effects of multiple vaccine ingredients given in combination. Safety concerns are further compounded when considering that infants and young children commonly receive multiple vaccines during the same office visit. Amid relentless claims by drug companies and conflict-ridden health agencies that vaccines are “safe and effective” (despite the fact than nearly $4 billion has been paid out by taxpayers to victims of vaccine injury) parents are wise to do their own research before making decisions about vaccines for their kids
Link: https://childrenshealthdefense.org/known-culprits/vaccines/

All of these are part of general anti-vaccination arguments long prior to covid. So, can you clarify - do you think it's just the new mRNA vaccines that are dangerous - or do you agree with childrenshealthdefense in criticizing vaccines in general?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on December 28, 2021, 05:32:19 PM
mRNA is most definitely dangerous, and you Americans over-vaccinate in general. Our routine children's panel in the UK is smaller than yours - and I would note my children had all of theirs.

As an example, you have a varicella (chicken pox) vaccine. Which I think is completely unnecessary. All my children had chicken pox in the normal course of things when they were small. So my position is more nuanced than either of those points.

There are three tests that should be applied to any medical intervention: is it necessary, is it effective, is it safe. The covid jabs fail on all three.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on December 28, 2021, 06:52:07 PM
Another article linked by Robert Malone, on autopsies carried out on the jabbed: https://stevekirsch.substack.com/p/bhakdiburkhardt-pathology-results

Summary:

Quote
The vaccines are bad news. Fifteen bodies were examined (all died from 7 days to 6 months after vaccination). The coroner or the public prosecutor didn’t associate the vaccine as the cause of death in any of the cases. However, further examination revealed that the vaccine was implicated in the deaths of 14 of the 15 cases. The most attacked organ was the heart (in all of the people who died), but other organs were attacked as well. The implications are potentially enormous resulting in millions of deaths. The vaccines should be immediately halted.

No need to worry. It is doubtful that anything will happen because the work wasn’t published in a peer-reviewed journal so will be ignored by the scientific community. That’s just the way it works.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on December 28, 2021, 10:42:27 PM
Article linked by Robert Malone (only one of the inventors of the mRNA technology used by the jabs): https://childrenshealthdefense.org/defender/sharyl-attkisson-steven-gundry-pfizer-moderna-vaccines-heart-attack-risk/

Quote
"We conclude that the mRNA vacs dramatically increase inflammation on the endothelium and T cell infiltration of cardiac muscle and may account for the observations of increased thrombosis, cardiomyopathy, and other vascular events following vaccination"
Except the study doesn't have the data to support the conclusion he's drawing:

https://www.science20.com/w_glen_pyle/inflaming_the_myths_of_covid19_vaccines-255808

Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: jhkim on December 28, 2021, 11:46:59 PM
mRNA is most definitely dangerous, and you Americans over-vaccinate in general. Our routine children's panel in the UK is smaller than yours - and I would note my children had all of theirs.

But the same source that you cited for mRNA being dangerous also claims that other vaccines are dangerous as well. If you believe childrenshealthdefense.org about mRNA vaccines, why did you disregard their warnings about other standard UK vaccines like MMR? This is from years before the covid pandemic, for example:

Quote
JCVI Historic Recklessness for Child Health Safety

The JCVI has a legal obligation under English and EU law to apply the precautionary principle in its deliberations. An account of how the JCVI has historically brought about widespread national harm to British children from a reckless approach to child health safety can be seen here: British Government’s Reckless Disregard for Child Health Safety

The latest information shows nothing has changed.

There is a considerable and growing body of research either showing how vaccinations are causally involved in or implicated as the only realistic causal explanation for the pandemic increases in autism, asthma, allergies, diabetes and many other new emerging conditions in modern western economies.

https://childhealthsafety.wordpress.com/2009/03/08/pharma-decide-uk-vaccination/
https://childhealthsafety.wordpress.com/2009/01/13/secret-british-mmr-vaccine-files-forced-open-by-legal-action/
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on December 29, 2021, 12:17:38 AM
mRNA is most definitely dangerous, and you Americans over-vaccinate in general. Our routine children's panel in the UK is smaller than yours - and I would note my children had all of theirs.

But the same source that you cited for mRNA being dangerous also claims that other vaccines are dangerous as well. If you believe childrenshealthdefense.org about mRNA vaccines, why did you disregard their warnings about other standard UK vaccines like MMR? This is from years before the covid pandemic, for example:

Quote
JCVI Historic Recklessness for Child Health Safety

The JCVI has a legal obligation under English and EU law to apply the precautionary principle in its deliberations. An account of how the JCVI has historically brought about widespread national harm to British children from a reckless approach to child health safety can be seen here: British Government’s Reckless Disregard for Child Health Safety

The latest information shows nothing has changed.

There is a considerable and growing body of research either showing how vaccinations are causally involved in or implicated as the only realistic causal explanation for the pandemic increases in autism, asthma, allergies, diabetes and many other new emerging conditions in modern western economies.

https://childhealthsafety.wordpress.com/2009/03/08/pharma-decide-uk-vaccination/
https://childhealthsafety.wordpress.com/2009/01/13/secret-british-mmr-vaccine-files-forced-open-by-legal-action/

Kiero has established that the credibility of the sources he cites is irrelevant to him. If he finds them in a Google search and it supports the position he's taking, that's all that's relevant. If the source turns out to be a routine nutcase, he's not interested in that information and thinks you're just trying to distract from his point.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Spinachcat on December 29, 2021, 03:21:13 AM
It is absolutely hysterical to see the libtard clown brigade desperately defending the completely failed TrumpVax which was produced by pharmaceutical companies with decades long criminal histories of medical malfeasance!

Even more hysterical is watching these same imbeciles now championing the mandatory injection of children when (a) the China Virus poses no meaningful threat to children and (b) the TrumpVax never underwent the proper human testing trials that our nation required for every other "vaccine".

But get your booster!

And in a few months, get your next booster!
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Shasarak on December 29, 2021, 04:02:57 AM
The TrumpVax kept all those fatties alive long enough for Omnicron to eliminate the Wuhan virus.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on December 29, 2021, 04:28:44 AM
Our former Vaccine Minister and now Education Secretary is so keen on the jab (his wife has large shareholding in at least one of the manufacturers) that he's been jabbed on camera at least five times:

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FHrV7QiWUAIyROf?format=jpg&name=small)
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Shasarak on December 29, 2021, 04:30:27 AM
Our former Vaccine Minister and now Education Secretary is so keen on the jab (his wife has large shareholding in at least one of the manufacturers) that he's been jabbed on camera at least five times:

I believe the current NZ record is 10 times in the same day.

Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on December 29, 2021, 04:34:19 AM
I believe the current NZ record is 10 times in the same day.

That's impressive commitment to the cause!

Also worth noting Nadim Zahawi, pictured above, owns the polling company YouGov, which mysteriously gives results that always support the government line on whatever questions it asks.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on December 29, 2021, 06:43:39 AM
But the same source that you cited for mRNA being dangerous also claims that other vaccines are dangerous as well. If you believe childrenshealthdefense.org about mRNA vaccines, why did you disregard their warnings about other standard UK vaccines like MMR? This is from years before the covid pandemic, for example:

Quote
JCVI Historic Recklessness for Child Health Safety

The JCVI has a legal obligation under English and EU law to apply the precautionary principle in its deliberations. An account of how the JCVI has historically brought about widespread national harm to British children from a reckless approach to child health safety can be seen here: British Government’s Reckless Disregard for Child Health Safety

The latest information shows nothing has changed.

There is a considerable and growing body of research either showing how vaccinations are causally involved in or implicated as the only realistic causal explanation for the pandemic increases in autism, asthma, allergies, diabetes and many other new emerging conditions in modern western economies.

https://childhealthsafety.wordpress.com/2009/03/08/pharma-decide-uk-vaccination/
https://childhealthsafety.wordpress.com/2009/01/13/secret-british-mmr-vaccine-files-forced-open-by-legal-action/

What a bizarre question. I don't regularly read that site and more to the point I don't treat any site as gospel. Each article, and even elements of any article are evaluated on their merits, not simply treated as something I should accept wholecloth because of where it came from.

As for the JCVI, they approved the use of covid jabs. If I looked into the employment history, funding and shareholding of the various members of that committee, how many would turn up ties to AstraZeneca, GSK, Pfizer and others?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ghostmaker on December 29, 2021, 08:25:17 AM
Recently, Sleepy Joe admitted that 'managing Covid is a state issue'. Which looks to be a preemptive surrender in advance of what may be an absolutely brutal SCOTUS ruling against the mandates.

So I guess federal mandates are probably going to go out the window.

The upshot is that this may be the Hair-Sniffer's 'Mission Accomplished'.  The current situation is entirely untenable and even the true believers in the regime know it.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Zelen on December 29, 2021, 11:30:17 AM
Recently, Sleepy Joe admitted that 'managing Covid is a state issue'. Which looks to be a preemptive surrender in advance of what may be an absolutely brutal SCOTUS ruling against the mandates.

I would never expect an absolutely brutal ruling from the current crop of pedophiles and villains posing as SC justices.

Also it's pretty ironic to nail Kiero for only "finding sources that agree" when this is exactly and precisely the modus operandi of the regime's Covid narrative for the past 2 years. (Despite countless instances of illogical / irrational / demonstrably false statements & actions.)
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: KingCheops on December 29, 2021, 12:33:24 PM
Recently, Sleepy Joe admitted that 'managing Covid is a state issue'. Which looks to be a preemptive surrender in advance of what may be an absolutely brutal SCOTUS ruling against the mandates.

I would never expect an absolutely brutal ruling from the current crop of pedophiles and villains posing as SC justices.

Also it's pretty ironic to nail Kiero for only "finding sources that agree" when this is exactly and precisely the modus operandi of the regime's Covid narrative for the past 2 years. (Despite countless instances of illogical / irrational / demonstrably false statements & actions.)

It's a scientific fact that only a consensus opinion of scientists is science.  Anything that questions that consensus is witchcraft and conspiracy theories and anyone spouting it must be burnt at the stake as a heretic.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on December 29, 2021, 03:42:42 PM
I believe the current NZ record is 10 times in the same day.

That's impressive commitment to the cause!

Also worth noting Nadim Zahawi, pictured above, owns the polling company YouGov, which mysteriously gives results that always support the government line on whatever questions it asks.

He hasn't owned any part of YouGov for over a decade, but you're dumb as a rock so that fact is irrelevant to you.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on December 29, 2021, 03:44:34 PM
But the same source that you cited for mRNA being dangerous also claims that other vaccines are dangerous as well. If you believe childrenshealthdefense.org about mRNA vaccines, why did you disregard their warnings about other standard UK vaccines like MMR? This is from years before the covid pandemic, for example:

Quote
JCVI Historic Recklessness for Child Health Safety

The JCVI has a legal obligation under English and EU law to apply the precautionary principle in its deliberations. An account of how the JCVI has historically brought about widespread national harm to British children from a reckless approach to child health safety can be seen here: British Government’s Reckless Disregard for Child Health Safety

The latest information shows nothing has changed.

There is a considerable and growing body of research either showing how vaccinations are causally involved in or implicated as the only realistic causal explanation for the pandemic increases in autism, asthma, allergies, diabetes and many other new emerging conditions in modern western economies.

https://childhealthsafety.wordpress.com/2009/03/08/pharma-decide-uk-vaccination/
https://childhealthsafety.wordpress.com/2009/01/13/secret-british-mmr-vaccine-files-forced-open-by-legal-action/

What a bizarre question. I don't regularly read that site and more to the point I don't treat any site as gospel. Each article, and even elements of any article are evaluated on their merits, not simply treated as something I should accept wholecloth because of where it came from.

IE if an article from a source with zero credibility agrees with your view you will quote it here and otherwise you will ignore that source. Gotcha. The credibility of a source is meaningless to you, as long as it agrees with your preconceived notions about reality.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ghostmaker on December 29, 2021, 04:46:49 PM
http://ace.mu.nu/archives/397145.php is an assemblage of some of the profound hypocrisy displayed by the craven Covidians.

Every decision made has been a political one, not a health or science-based one.

But by all means, keep trying to wave 'but the SCIENCE!' around.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Garry G on December 29, 2021, 05:49:01 PM
Your tinfoil hat is on way too tight. You're seeing conspiracies in everything.

Incredible someone as blinkered as you is trusted with other people's safety. Evidently you can't see anything further than what's right in front of you. Nor do you seem to know a great deal about the British government and their advisers. So pardon me if I give your ignorant wittering little credence.

Except that you have no idea on how the NHS and local councils worksl. Healthcare workers turn up at people's doors on a daily basis within ethical guidelines and with no breach of confidentiality. It's how social care, OT and PT at home work. To be fair you not noticing all this happening around you every day may a sign of how well it works.

Or you're an idiot but I don't like to assume that.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Eirikrautha on December 29, 2021, 07:00:14 PM
But the same source that you cited for mRNA being dangerous also claims that other vaccines are dangerous as well. If you believe childrenshealthdefense.org about mRNA vaccines, why did you disregard their warnings about other standard UK vaccines like MMR? This is from years before the covid pandemic, for example:

Quote
JCVI Historic Recklessness for Child Health Safety

The JCVI has a legal obligation under English and EU law to apply the precautionary principle in its deliberations. An account of how the JCVI has historically brought about widespread national harm to British children from a reckless approach to child health safety can be seen here: British Government’s Reckless Disregard for Child Health Safety

The latest information shows nothing has changed.

There is a considerable and growing body of research either showing how vaccinations are causally involved in or implicated as the only realistic causal explanation for the pandemic increases in autism, asthma, allergies, diabetes and many other new emerging conditions in modern western economies.

https://childhealthsafety.wordpress.com/2009/03/08/pharma-decide-uk-vaccination/
https://childhealthsafety.wordpress.com/2009/01/13/secret-british-mmr-vaccine-files-forced-open-by-legal-action/

What a bizarre question. I don't regularly read that site and more to the point I don't treat any site as gospel. Each article, and even elements of any article are evaluated on their merits, not simply treated as something I should accept wholecloth because of where it came from.

IE if an article from a source with zero credibility agrees with your view you will quote it here and otherwise you will ignore that source. Gotcha. The credibility of a source is meaningless to you, as long as it agrees with your preconceived notions about reality.
Pot, meet kettle.  The staggering lack of self-awareness it took for you to post that...
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on December 29, 2021, 10:20:48 PM
But the same source that you cited for mRNA being dangerous also claims that other vaccines are dangerous as well. If you believe childrenshealthdefense.org about mRNA vaccines, why did you disregard their warnings about other standard UK vaccines like MMR? This is from years before the covid pandemic, for example:

Quote
JCVI Historic Recklessness for Child Health Safety

The JCVI has a legal obligation under English and EU law to apply the precautionary principle in its deliberations. An account of how the JCVI has historically brought about widespread national harm to British children from a reckless approach to child health safety can be seen here: British Government’s Reckless Disregard for Child Health Safety

The latest information shows nothing has changed.

There is a considerable and growing body of research either showing how vaccinations are causally involved in or implicated as the only realistic causal explanation for the pandemic increases in autism, asthma, allergies, diabetes and many other new emerging conditions in modern western economies.

https://childhealthsafety.wordpress.com/2009/03/08/pharma-decide-uk-vaccination/
https://childhealthsafety.wordpress.com/2009/01/13/secret-british-mmr-vaccine-files-forced-open-by-legal-action/

What a bizarre question. I don't regularly read that site and more to the point I don't treat any site as gospel. Each article, and even elements of any article are evaluated on their merits, not simply treated as something I should accept wholecloth because of where it came from.

IE if an article from a source with zero credibility agrees with your view you will quote it here and otherwise you will ignore that source. Gotcha. The credibility of a source is meaningless to you, as long as it agrees with your preconceived notions about reality.
Pot, meet kettle.  The staggering lack of self-awareness it took for you to post that...

Exactly which source have I cited which lacked credibility? This should be good. You continue to defend a creep who cited from an antisemitic whack job conspiracy theory website multiple times, who just posted an international court filing alleging worldwide conspiracy theory, and instead of ever taking him to task for anything you blurt out these vague accusations at me with no backing at all. Why do you feel like you need to defend Keiro after all the stupid shit he continues to pull with this stupid whataboutism?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on December 30, 2021, 07:17:04 AM
Exactly which source have I cited which lacked credibility?

How about every single time you've used a "fact check" as "evidence" to support your point?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on December 30, 2021, 07:21:10 AM
What I find most hilarious about all of this is that there are many of you who've been taken in for the last two years by the most incredible scam.

You've allowed yourself to be convinced there's a deadly pandemic (there isn't; never was) which has merited sweeping away your rights and freedoms and necessitated changing the way you live day to day. Including allowing yourself to be injected with an experimental gene therapy that doesn't even work, to treat a virus which is of almost no risk to you at all.

Meanwhile, I've done none of this, accepted no change to the way I live and remain inviolate in body (and have suffered little impact at all from the so-called deadly virus, despite having been infected several times). Yet I'm the one who's "crazy".

Rock on you nutbars, I'm sure those of you still alive 5 years from now will deny ever believing there was a pandemic in 2020-2023.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on December 30, 2021, 07:56:11 AM
Exactly which source have I cited which lacked credibility?

How about every single time you've used a "fact check" as "evidence" to support your point?
It's really geting to you that none of your bullshit can pass even that simple hurdle, isn't it?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on December 30, 2021, 07:57:56 AM
What I find most hilarious about all of this is that there are many of you who've been taken in for the last two years by the most incredible scam.

You've allowed yourself to be convinced there's a deadly pandemic (there isn't; never was) which has merited sweeping away your rights and freedoms and necessitated changing the way you live day to day. Including allowing yourself to be injected with an experimental gene therapy that doesn't even work, to treat a virus which is of almost no risk to you at all.

Meanwhile, I've done none of this, accepted no change to the way I live and remain inviolate in body (and have suffered little impact at all from the so-called deadly virus, despite having been infected several times). Yet I'm the one who's "crazy".

Rock on you nutbars, I'm sure those of you still alive 5 years from now will deny ever believing there was a pandemic in 2020-2023.
You've been infected several times...huh, what happened to the natural immunity that supposedly is so much better than the vaccines?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on December 30, 2021, 08:53:19 AM
You've been infected several times...huh, what happened to the natural immunity that supposedly is so much better than the vaccines?

Natural immunity doesn't prevent infection from coronaviruses, much as it doesn't from influenza. It does provide much better protection than the jabs, though, as repeated studies have shown.

Fortunately, my immunity derived from infection has zero risk of adverse reactions.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Eirikrautha on December 30, 2021, 09:09:52 AM
But the same source that you cited for mRNA being dangerous also claims that other vaccines are dangerous as well. If you believe childrenshealthdefense.org about mRNA vaccines, why did you disregard their warnings about other standard UK vaccines like MMR? This is from years before the covid pandemic, for example:

Quote
JCVI Historic Recklessness for Child Health Safety

The JCVI has a legal obligation under English and EU law to apply the precautionary principle in its deliberations. An account of how the JCVI has historically brought about widespread national harm to British children from a reckless approach to child health safety can be seen here: British Government’s Reckless Disregard for Child Health Safety

The latest information shows nothing has changed.

There is a considerable and growing body of research either showing how vaccinations are causally involved in or implicated as the only realistic causal explanation for the pandemic increases in autism, asthma, allergies, diabetes and many other new emerging conditions in modern western economies.

https://childhealthsafety.wordpress.com/2009/03/08/pharma-decide-uk-vaccination/
https://childhealthsafety.wordpress.com/2009/01/13/secret-british-mmr-vaccine-files-forced-open-by-legal-action/

What a bizarre question. I don't regularly read that site and more to the point I don't treat any site as gospel. Each article, and even elements of any article are evaluated on their merits, not simply treated as something I should accept wholecloth because of where it came from.

IE if an article from a source with zero credibility agrees with your view you will quote it here and otherwise you will ignore that source. Gotcha. The credibility of a source is meaningless to you, as long as it agrees with your preconceived notions about reality.
Pot, meet kettle.  The staggering lack of self-awareness it took for you to post that...

Exactly which source have I cited which lacked credibility? This should be good. You continue to defend a creep who cited from an antisemitic whack job conspiracy theory website multiple times, who just posted an international court filing alleging worldwide conspiracy theory, and instead of ever taking him to task for anything you blurt out these vague accusations at me with no backing at all. Why do you feel like you need to defend Keiro after all the stupid shit he continues to pull with this stupid whataboutism?

Easy.  Post one example where you have cited a highly credible source that disagrees with your point of view on Covid (they exist; there are many doctors and epidemiologists that have criticized the response to the pandemic, masks, alternative to the vaccines, etc.).  But your test for "credible" is "agrees with the narrative for this disease that I already believe."  Doctors with decades of experience at major research hospitals are not "credible" because they contradict the narrative.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on December 30, 2021, 03:48:06 PM
Exactly which source have I cited which lacked credibility?

How about every single time you've used a "fact check" as "evidence" to support your point?

Exactly which source have I cited which lacked credibility?

You seriously cannot even be bothered to support any allegation you make. You must be one fat lazy fuck despite your protestations to the contrary.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on December 30, 2021, 03:53:07 PM
But the same source that you cited for mRNA being dangerous also claims that other vaccines are dangerous as well. If you believe childrenshealthdefense.org about mRNA vaccines, why did you disregard their warnings about other standard UK vaccines like MMR? This is from years before the covid pandemic, for example:

Quote
JCVI Historic Recklessness for Child Health Safety

The JCVI has a legal obligation under English and EU law to apply the precautionary principle in its deliberations. An account of how the JCVI has historically brought about widespread national harm to British children from a reckless approach to child health safety can be seen here: British Government’s Reckless Disregard for Child Health Safety

The latest information shows nothing has changed.

There is a considerable and growing body of research either showing how vaccinations are causally involved in or implicated as the only realistic causal explanation for the pandemic increases in autism, asthma, allergies, diabetes and many other new emerging conditions in modern western economies.

https://childhealthsafety.wordpress.com/2009/03/08/pharma-decide-uk-vaccination/
https://childhealthsafety.wordpress.com/2009/01/13/secret-british-mmr-vaccine-files-forced-open-by-legal-action/

What a bizarre question. I don't regularly read that site and more to the point I don't treat any site as gospel. Each article, and even elements of any article are evaluated on their merits, not simply treated as something I should accept wholecloth because of where it came from.

IE if an article from a source with zero credibility agrees with your view you will quote it here and otherwise you will ignore that source. Gotcha. The credibility of a source is meaningless to you, as long as it agrees with your preconceived notions about reality.
Pot, meet kettle.  The staggering lack of self-awareness it took for you to post that...

Exactly which source have I cited which lacked credibility? This should be good. You continue to defend a creep who cited from an antisemitic whack job conspiracy theory website multiple times, who just posted an international court filing alleging worldwide conspiracy theory, and instead of ever taking him to task for anything you blurt out these vague accusations at me with no backing at all. Why do you feel like you need to defend Keiro after all the stupid shit he continues to pull with this stupid whataboutism?

Easy.  Post one example...

No, wait wait wait. If you are going to accuse someone of posting sources which lack credibility, and they ask you when they did that, no rational response starts with you asking them to post something else. You make the accusation, then you support the accusation. Just like I supported my accusation that the link he gave was a nutcase conspiracy theory one, with many direct quotes.

You cannot though. Because you too are either a lazy fuck or a liar. You post a baseless accusation and think you're immune from backing it up. Fuck that. Let's see where I posted a source which lacked credibility. You directly compared what I post to what he posted - which was rife with insane level conspiracy theories which any psychiatrist would recommend serious meds to treat. NOTHING I've posted comes anything close to that, and your dismissal comparison was bullshit and you know it.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on December 30, 2021, 06:25:30 PM
Exactly which source have I cited which lacked credibility?

You seriously cannot even be bothered to support any allegation you make. You must be one fat lazy fuck despite your protestations to the contrary.

You've got it the wrong way around chief. You are not worth the effort.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Eirikrautha on December 30, 2021, 06:26:16 PM
But the same source that you cited for mRNA being dangerous also claims that other vaccines are dangerous as well. If you believe childrenshealthdefense.org about mRNA vaccines, why did you disregard their warnings about other standard UK vaccines like MMR? This is from years before the covid pandemic, for example:

Quote
JCVI Historic Recklessness for Child Health Safety

The JCVI has a legal obligation under English and EU law to apply the precautionary principle in its deliberations. An account of how the JCVI has historically brought about widespread national harm to British children from a reckless approach to child health safety can be seen here: British Government’s Reckless Disregard for Child Health Safety

The latest information shows nothing has changed.

There is a considerable and growing body of research either showing how vaccinations are causally involved in or implicated as the only realistic causal explanation for the pandemic increases in autism, asthma, allergies, diabetes and many other new emerging conditions in modern western economies.

https://childhealthsafety.wordpress.com/2009/03/08/pharma-decide-uk-vaccination/
https://childhealthsafety.wordpress.com/2009/01/13/secret-british-mmr-vaccine-files-forced-open-by-legal-action/

What a bizarre question. I don't regularly read that site and more to the point I don't treat any site as gospel. Each article, and even elements of any article are evaluated on their merits, not simply treated as something I should accept wholecloth because of where it came from.

IE if an article from a source with zero credibility agrees with your view you will quote it here and otherwise you will ignore that source. Gotcha. The credibility of a source is meaningless to you, as long as it agrees with your preconceived notions about reality.
Pot, meet kettle.  The staggering lack of self-awareness it took for you to post that...

Exactly which source have I cited which lacked credibility? This should be good. You continue to defend a creep who cited from an antisemitic whack job conspiracy theory website multiple times, who just posted an international court filing alleging worldwide conspiracy theory, and instead of ever taking him to task for anything you blurt out these vague accusations at me with no backing at all. Why do you feel like you need to defend Keiro after all the stupid shit he continues to pull with this stupid whataboutism?

Easy.  Post one example...

No, wait wait wait. If you are going to accuse someone of posting sources which lack credibility, and they ask you when they did that, no rational response starts with you asking them to post something else. You make the accusation, then you support the accusation. Just like I supported my accusation that the link he gave was a nutcase conspiracy theory one, with many direct quotes.

You cannot though. Because you too are either a lazy fuck or a liar. You post a baseless accusation and think you're immune from backing it up. Fuck that. Let's see where I posted a source which lacked credibility. You directly compared what I post to what he posted - which was rife with insane level conspiracy theories which any psychiatrist would recommend serious meds to treat. NOTHING I've posted comes anything close to that, and your dismissal comparison was bullshit and you know it.
No, as most folks on here have already pointed out, you are the liar (who has been caught in it before, like when you asserted I said something that another poster said and refused to back off of it until pages later).  Your statement accused him of only posting info that supported his narrative, regardless of the credibility of the source.  You only post stuff from sources you agree with (and you've posted many news articles... as if the media is credible or trustworthy).  It's that simple.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on December 30, 2021, 06:26:49 PM
Oh dear, this is rather inconvenient. Robert Koch Institute report released today states that 95.58% of the Omicron cases in Germany are fully vaccinated (28% of those had a "booster"), 4.42% are unvaccinated.

If you read German, here's the original source: https://www.rki.de/DE/Content/InfAZ/N/Neuartiges_Coronavirus/Situationsberichte/Wochenbericht/Wochenbericht_2021-12-30.pdf?__blob=publicationFile

Sounds suspiciously like antibody dependent enhancement by the jabs. Omicron is an infection of the "vaccinated". Does that show it's working?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on December 30, 2021, 11:56:12 PM
But the same source that you cited for mRNA being dangerous also claims that other vaccines are dangerous as well. If you believe childrenshealthdefense.org about mRNA vaccines, why did you disregard their warnings about other standard UK vaccines like MMR? This is from years before the covid pandemic, for example:

Quote
JCVI Historic Recklessness for Child Health Safety

The JCVI has a legal obligation under English and EU law to apply the precautionary principle in its deliberations. An account of how the JCVI has historically brought about widespread national harm to British children from a reckless approach to child health safety can be seen here: British Government’s Reckless Disregard for Child Health Safety

The latest information shows nothing has changed.

There is a considerable and growing body of research either showing how vaccinations are causally involved in or implicated as the only realistic causal explanation for the pandemic increases in autism, asthma, allergies, diabetes and many other new emerging conditions in modern western economies.

https://childhealthsafety.wordpress.com/2009/03/08/pharma-decide-uk-vaccination/
https://childhealthsafety.wordpress.com/2009/01/13/secret-british-mmr-vaccine-files-forced-open-by-legal-action/

What a bizarre question. I don't regularly read that site and more to the point I don't treat any site as gospel. Each article, and even elements of any article are evaluated on their merits, not simply treated as something I should accept wholecloth because of where it came from.

IE if an article from a source with zero credibility agrees with your view you will quote it here and otherwise you will ignore that source. Gotcha. The credibility of a source is meaningless to you, as long as it agrees with your preconceived notions about reality.
Pot, meet kettle.  The staggering lack of self-awareness it took for you to post that...

Exactly which source have I cited which lacked credibility? This should be good. You continue to defend a creep who cited from an antisemitic whack job conspiracy theory website multiple times, who just posted an international court filing alleging worldwide conspiracy theory, and instead of ever taking him to task for anything you blurt out these vague accusations at me with no backing at all. Why do you feel like you need to defend Keiro after all the stupid shit he continues to pull with this stupid whataboutism?

Easy.  Post one example...

No, wait wait wait. If you are going to accuse someone of posting sources which lack credibility, and they ask you when they did that, no rational response starts with you asking them to post something else. You make the accusation, then you support the accusation. Just like I supported my accusation that the link he gave was a nutcase conspiracy theory one, with many direct quotes.

You cannot though. Because you too are either a lazy fuck or a liar. You post a baseless accusation and think you're immune from backing it up. Fuck that. Let's see where I posted a source which lacked credibility. You directly compared what I post to what he posted - which was rife with insane level conspiracy theories which any psychiatrist would recommend serious meds to treat. NOTHING I've posted comes anything close to that, and your dismissal comparison was bullshit and you know it.
No, as most folks on here have already pointed out, you are the liar (who has been caught in it before, like when you asserted I said something that another poster said and refused to back off of it until pages later).  Your statement accused him of only posting info that supported his narrative, regardless of the credibility of the source.  You only post stuff from sources you agree with (and you've posted many news articles... as if the media is credible or trustworthy).  It's that simple.

Ah I get it now. You're still pissed I mistook you for someone else, and apologized for it. Gotcha. I "lied" by mistaking you for someone else, and it's proof I "lied" that I apologized as soon as I figured out my mistake...which is what a liar would do, right, apologize on a board like this?

As for the sources I've cited which you think lack credibility on anything close to the same level as Kiero's, it's quite simple. SHOW. ME. Don't repeat the accusation (anyone can accuse anyone of anything - it's lazy and meaningless). SHOW ME where I did anything like what Kiero did. Let's see it.

You can't. Because I didn't.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on December 31, 2021, 12:04:26 AM
Oh dear, this is rather inconvenient. Robert Koch Institute report released today states that 95.58% of the Omicron cases in Germany are fully vaccinated (28% of those had a "booster"), 4.42% are unvaccinated.

If you read German, here's the original source: https://www.rki.de/DE/Content/InfAZ/N/Neuartiges_Coronavirus/Situationsberichte/Wochenbericht/Wochenbericht_2021-12-30.pdf?__blob=publicationFile

Sounds suspiciously like antibody dependent enhancement by the jabs. Omicron is an infection of the "vaccinated". Does that show it's working?

LOL you mean the report which starts by explaining how they are missing massive amounts of data "because of the holidays"?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on December 31, 2021, 12:45:36 AM
As for the sources I've cited which you think lack credibility on anything close to the same level as Kiero's, it's quite simple. SHOW. ME. Don't repeat the accusation (anyone can accuse anyone of anything - it's lazy and meaningless). SHOW ME where I did anything like what Kiero did. Let's see it.
How about earlier in this thread, when you accused me of propaganda and tried to prove it by linking to propaganda from Chinese state-run media? (https://www.therpgsite.com/the-rpgpundit-s-own-forum/covid-the-lockdowns-etc/msg1184871/#msg1184871) That was funny. And in many ways worse, because a totalitarian regime engaged in genocide is a lot more dangerous than some random nutjob with a webpage.
 
Everyone makes mistakes on forums, including linking to sites without thoroughly vetting them. But while it's important to correct those mistakes, everyone realized many pages back that the website Kiero linked is garbage. Harping on it endlessly makes it look like you're pursuing an irrational vendetta, instead of making a cogent critique. There's grace and wisdom in knowing when to drop a subject.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on December 31, 2021, 05:46:47 AM
LOL you mean the report which starts by explaining how they are missing massive amounts of data "because of the holidays"?

Yes, otherwise known as arse covering - which won't change very much even when they've adjusted for the holidays. Germany is 71% jabbed and they've tried to keep the unjabbed under house arrest. And yet this variant has spread unchecked, great "protection" being offered by the jabs there!
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on January 01, 2022, 12:37:46 PM
As for the sources I've cited which you think lack credibility on anything close to the same level as Kiero's, it's quite simple. SHOW. ME. Don't repeat the accusation (anyone can accuse anyone of anything - it's lazy and meaningless). SHOW ME where I did anything like what Kiero did. Let's see it.
How about earlier in this thread, when you accused me of propaganda and tried to prove it by linking to propaganda from Chinese state-run media? (https://www.therpgsite.com/the-rpgpundit-s-own-forum/covid-the-lockdowns-etc/msg1184871/#msg1184871) That was funny. And in many ways worse, because a totalitarian regime engaged in genocide is a lot more dangerous than some random nutjob with a webpage.
 
Everyone makes mistakes on forums, including linking to sites without thoroughly vetting them. But while it's important to correct those mistakes, everyone realized many pages back that the website Kiero linked is garbage. Harping on it endlessly makes it look like you're pursuing an irrational vendetta, instead of making a cogent critique. There's grace and wisdom in knowing when to drop a subject.

You claimed a device worked and looked a certain way. That site showed a picture of the device in use, showing it worked different than you claimed. Your claim was about Chinese state-run programs, and the link was a picture from the very thing you were referencing showing what it looked like. NOTHING about the picture involved propaganda one way or the other - we both agreed the device existed and disagreed about how it physically worked and the article I posted, propaganda or not, showed the actual device accurately. Nothing about it being propaganda calls into question the accuracy of the actual picture.

Compare that to quoting a source, like Kiero did, which was literally fabricating allegations based purely on the authors speculation, from a site which engages routinely in antisemitic crazy conspiracy theories. As the article Kiero was linking to was right in line with the other things that site routinely lies about, it's fair to say it deeply lacks credibility and should be called out.

On the other hand, while any "go China!" stuff in my source should be called into question, a picture of a device we all agree exists shouldn't. That isn't right in line with any actual propaganda on that site. In fact it had nothing to do with a "go China!" type theme.

So no, I didn't post anything close to the type of think Kiero did. I didn't even raise that topic - you did. And I never disagreed that it was a Chinese site - of course it was, as it's the only thing showing the device WHICH YOU RAISED AS A TOPIC.

If one could not link to the Chinese site to refute your claim about how the device worked, that would essentially be you saying "I can make any claim I want about how this device works, and nobody is permitted to refute it because any attempt to refute it would include linking to a Chinese site by-definition because only Chinese sites would ever show the device."

Which, for you, is pretty par for the course. You post a seemingly reasonable position and it takes someone really digging in to your position to see no, you're just being your usual asshole self and lying about something and then gatekeeping any dissent from your position with a bunch of bullshit.

As for me harping on Kiero about it: LITERALLY MOST OF HIS LINKS ARE FROM SITES LIKE THAT. For example he recently linked to the filing before the Hague criminal court - I quoted from another part of that document and IT'S ANOTHER INSANE CONSPIRACY THEORY NONSENSE. But you whitewash it. A bunch of you guys whitewash it. It's like whack-a-mole. Kiero posts from a crazed conspiracy theory source, I point it out, and you guys defend it as if it's alone in a vacuum and not the next in a series of insane conspiracy sources he's posted for months on end.

Kiero might be a paranoid schizophrenic, given his behavior here. And you and guys like you keep enabling him. He probably badly needs help, but he won't get it because you guys keep normalizing his mental illness. You make him think his lizard-people views are normal. You're not helping him, or anyone else here. You're not fighting the good fight by defending his deranged posts. This is not a good outlet for your instinctive devil's advocate. You may be doing real life damage to a guy who needs help by propping him up because you want to "get one over" on me. Even though you can do that with me on a dozen other topics which are not about Kiero's homeless rantings about a secret cabal trying to take over the world.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: 3catcircus on January 01, 2022, 01:38:58 PM
It is absolutely hysterical to see the libtard clown brigade desperately defending the completely failed TrumpVax which was produced by pharmaceutical companies with decades long criminal histories of medical malfeasance!

Even more hysterical is watching these same imbeciles now championing the mandatory injection of children when (a) the China Virus poses no meaningful threat to children and (b) the TrumpVax never underwent the proper human testing trials that our nation required for every other "vaccine".

But get your booster!

And in a few months, get your next booster!

I think you need to separate the fact that Trump got pharma and the FDA to get off their asses and develop vaccines and bring them to human trials in record time from the fact that the vaccines themselves are really nothing more than a fancy Theraflu that needs more testing...

We also have to separate Trump from the USG permanent bureaucracy. 

Will these therapeutics reduce seriousness for those with comorbidities?  Absolutely. Does it make sense for high school athletes to take them? Absolutely not.  The fight isn't over whether they should be available for those that it's makes sense to take. It's over the bureaucracy that we have undeniable proof has engaged in purposefully withholding potentially helpful early treatments and that we have undeniable proof of doubling down on ineffective NPIs, to the point of suppressing contrary evidence.

Here is what mostly likely has led to us being where we are today:

1. Fauci provides grant money to various research organizations who launder the funds so that there is no traceability to GoF research performed in China.
2. China sends PhD students to Western universities to perform research, which really means stealing IP from the West. Professors collude either through bribery or extortion, or they are already party loyalists who remained in the West after getting their PhD - learning from the likes of Ralph Baric in his to create chimeric viruses with furin cleavage sites that are able to pass as naturally occurring rather than manipulated in the lab.
3. China provides various "incentives" to keep the gravy train going.  They didn't pay for their own research labs and resources - western taxpayers did.  It's always good to get your enemies to fund their own demise, after all...
4. Using resources provided by Fauci and others that would otherwise not be allowed due to export restrictions, China conducts off-book weaponization research to benefit themselves.
5. When there is a lab leak due to lax lab protocols, Fauci and others already know the source of the leak but need to cover it up - and it happened well before fall of 2019.
6. They double-down their cover-up even as the virus continues to propagate beyond local outbreaks.
7. Despite their cover-up, these cretins are considered experts in their field, so governments rely upon their advice - even as that advice is compromised by the need to cover up that they themselves are the source of the pandemic.

The way we get out of this mess (the pandemic itself is already over, based upon how Omicron will infect everyone and it will be only cold symptoms) is to ensure we put into office lawmakers who are willing to steamroll the existing governmental bureaucracy. Forget filing FOIA requests - go pull all of the emails from the accounts of Fauci, Collins, both the current and former Surgeons General, and the FDA for those involved in approval of the vaccines. Do likewise for every WH staffer and cabinet secretary and those of selected congressional staffers. Do the same for various governors and state Sec if Health. Subpoena everyone and back it up with US Marshals to arrest those who don't show up. Interview USSS. Pull files from DoJ, FBI, and CIA associated with the pandemic response. Declassify *all* of it.  Essentially, it *all* needs to be burned to the ground and the ashes pissed on and then go back to first principles of the constitution.

In other countries, YMMV but the same needs to be done in UK, NZ, AUS, Canada, Germany, and the UN. 

When all roads point back to the guilty parties, you publicly execute them in the most gruesome fashion possible. When the roads ultimately point back to Beijing, there can only be one response. You expel and deport every single chinaman from every research university, every industry, throw out every diplomat. You close your markets to them and shut off their ability to obtain raw materials (we're going to be just fine without more FOXCONN  slave phones or Walmartian cheap crap). You force an oil embargo. You aggressively patrol the South China Sea and the airspace and equip Taiwan as best you can while aggressively routing out CHICOM spies there. You go to every artificial island in international waters that China has claimed and you use it for artillery and bombing target practice after giving them the necessary time to evacuate (because we're not savages). 
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: 3catcircus on January 01, 2022, 01:45:18 PM
As for the sources I've cited which you think lack credibility on anything close to the same level as Kiero's, it's quite simple. SHOW. ME. Don't repeat the accusation (anyone can accuse anyone of anything - it's lazy and meaningless). SHOW ME where I did anything like what Kiero did. Let's see it.
How about earlier in this thread, when you accused me of propaganda and tried to prove it by linking to propaganda from Chinese state-run media? (https://www.therpgsite.com/the-rpgpundit-s-own-forum/covid-the-lockdowns-etc/msg1184871/#msg1184871) That was funny. And in many ways worse, because a totalitarian regime engaged in genocide is a lot more dangerous than some random nutjob with a webpage.
 
Everyone makes mistakes on forums, including linking to sites without thoroughly vetting them. But while it's important to correct those mistakes, everyone realized many pages back that the website Kiero linked is garbage. Harping on it endlessly makes it look like you're pursuing an irrational vendetta, instead of making a cogent critique. There's grace and wisdom in knowing when to drop a subject.

You claimed a device worked and looked a certain way. That site showed a picture of the device in use, showing it worked different than you claimed. Your claim was about Chinese state-run programs, and the link was a picture from the very thing you were referencing showing what it looked like. NOTHING about the picture involved propaganda one way or the other - we both agreed the device existed and disagreed about how it physically worked and the article I posted, propaganda or not, showed the actual device accurately. Nothing about it being propaganda calls into question the accuracy of the actual picture.

Compare that to quoting a source, like Kiero did, which was literally fabricating allegations based purely on the authors speculation, from a site which engages routinely in antisemitic crazy conspiracy theories. As the article Kiero was linking to was right in line with the other things that site routinely lies about, it's fair to say it deeply lacks credibility and should be called out.

On the other hand, while any "go China!" stuff in my source should be called into question, a picture of a device we all agree exists shouldn't. That isn't right in line with any actual propaganda on that site. In fact it had nothing to do with a "go China!" type theme.

So no, I didn't post anything close to the type of think Kiero did. I didn't even raise that topic - you did. And I never disagreed that it was a Chinese site - of course it was, as it's the only thing showing the device WHICH YOU RAISED AS A TOPIC.

If one could not link to the Chinese site to refute your claim about how the device worked, that would essentially be you saying "I can make any claim I want about how this device works, and nobody is permitted to refute it because any attempt to refute it would include linking to a Chinese site by-definition because only Chinese sites would ever show the device."

Which, for you, is pretty par for the course. You post a seemingly reasonable position and it takes someone really digging in to your position to see no, you're just being your usual asshole self and lying about something and then gatekeeping any dissent from your position with a bunch of bullshit.

As for me harping on Kiero about it: LITERALLY MOST OF HIS LINKS ARE FROM SITES LIKE THAT. For example he recently linked to the filing before the Hague criminal court - I quoted from another part of that document and IT'S ANOTHER INSANE CONSPIRACY THEORY NONSENSE. But you whitewash it. A bunch of you guys whitewash it. It's like whack-a-mole. Kiero posts from a crazed conspiracy theory source, I point it out, and you guys defend it as if it's alone in a vacuum and not the next in a series of insane conspiracy sources he's posted for months on end.

Kiero might be a paranoid schizophrenic, given his behavior here. And you and guys like you keep enabling him. He probably badly needs help, but he won't get it because you guys keep normalizing his mental illness. You make him think his lizard-people views are normal. You're not helping him, or anyone else here. You're not fighting the good fight by defending his deranged posts. This is not a good outlet for your instinctive devil's advocate. You may be doing real life damage to a guy who needs help by propping him up because you want to "get one over" on me. Even though you can do that with me on a dozen other topics which are not about Kiero's homeless rantings about a secret cabal trying to take over the world.

I'll just refute your assertions regarding the veracity of information sources by noting that almost everything that various "conspiracy theorists" stated early last year would be coming and that were derided as tinfoil hat material have now become undeniable fact.

(http://)
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on January 01, 2022, 03:16:35 PM
As for the sources I've cited which you think lack credibility on anything close to the same level as Kiero's, it's quite simple. SHOW. ME. Don't repeat the accusation (anyone can accuse anyone of anything - it's lazy and meaningless). SHOW ME where I did anything like what Kiero did. Let's see it.
How about earlier in this thread, when you accused me of propaganda and tried to prove it by linking to propaganda from Chinese state-run media? (https://www.therpgsite.com/the-rpgpundit-s-own-forum/covid-the-lockdowns-etc/msg1184871/#msg1184871) That was funny. And in many ways worse, because a totalitarian regime engaged in genocide is a lot more dangerous than some random nutjob with a webpage.
 
Everyone makes mistakes on forums, including linking to sites without thoroughly vetting them. But while it's important to correct those mistakes, everyone realized many pages back that the website Kiero linked is garbage. Harping on it endlessly makes it look like you're pursuing an irrational vendetta, instead of making a cogent critique. There's grace and wisdom in knowing when to drop a subject.

You claimed a device worked and looked a certain way. That site showed a picture of the device in use, showing it worked different than you claimed.
No, my description was accurate. You're the one who made up shit. But that's aside from the point. You accused me of propaganda, by literally linking to Chinese state-run propaganda.

Your lack of self-awareness is staggering.

Which, for you, is pretty par for the course. You post a seemingly reasonable position and it takes someone really digging in to your position to see no, you're just being your usual asshole self and lying about something and then gatekeeping any dissent from your position with a bunch of bullshit.
Remember when you flipped from being semi-reasonable to completely insane, and started stalking me and attacking me in random threads with vile and completely unfounded accusations? It was when I pointed out that you were making false claims, and that when you were challenged, you'd stop posting on that subject for a while, only to pop up later making the same unfounded claims. Pinning down your evasive dishonestly apparently drove you berserk, because you've been making frothing at the mouth crazy posts like this every since. This is trademark you, making all kinds of nasty claims about me, but keeping them vague and general because they're lies and you can't provide any specific details or concrete examples.

I give up. You deserve all the shit you get.

As for me harping on Kiero about it: LITERALLY MOST OF HIS LINKS ARE FROM SITES LIKE THAT.
Then address those. I literally said errors should be corrected. But it's really hard to do that, when you keep harping on the same resolved issued (everyone agrees, and even Kiero conceded).
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on January 01, 2022, 05:58:44 PM
Kiero might be a paranoid schizophrenic, given his behavior here. And you and guys like you keep enabling him. He probably badly needs help, but he won't get it because you guys keep normalizing his mental illness. You make him think his lizard-people views are normal. You're not helping him, or anyone else here. You're not fighting the good fight by defending his deranged posts. This is not a good outlet for your instinctive devil's advocate. You may be doing real life damage to a guy who needs help by propping him up because you want to "get one over" on me. Even though you can do that with me on a dozen other topics which are not about Kiero's homeless rantings about a secret cabal trying to take over the world.

It's not a "conspiracy" when all the information is out in the public domain, you stupid fuck.

As for my mental health, just fine, thanks. I haven't engaged in the mass delusion that there's a pandemic, or accepted humiliation after humiliation that would make me doubt what my own senses and reasoning can tell me.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on January 01, 2022, 06:33:52 PM
Kiero might be a paranoid schizophrenic, given his behavior here. And you and guys like you keep enabling him. He probably badly needs help, but he won't get it because you guys keep normalizing his mental illness. You make him think his lizard-people views are normal. You're not helping him, or anyone else here. You're not fighting the good fight by defending his deranged posts. This is not a good outlet for your instinctive devil's advocate. You may be doing real life damage to a guy who needs help by propping him up because you want to "get one over" on me. Even though you can do that with me on a dozen other topics which are not about Kiero's homeless rantings about a secret cabal trying to take over the world.

It's not a "conspiracy" when all the information is out in the public domain, you stupid fuck.

As for my mental health, just fine, thanks. I haven't engaged in the mass delusion that there's a pandemic, or accepted humiliation after humiliation that would make me doubt what my own senses and reasoning can tell me.

Every single person here, all the people defending you, all agree there is in fact a pandemic. All of them. We all thing you're behaving oddly in denying there is a pandemic.

We might disagree about the extent, the vaccines and masks and other approaches to it, but we all agree there is a real pandemic and that Covid really does kill way more people than you think it does.

We all also agree your claims about 1/3 of people who get Covid get it from a hospital are wrong, that people who die from Covid while on a ventilator are dying from the drug used with the ventilator is wrong, that so many of your claims about covid are wrong.

You have bought into many wild conspiracy theories. People here, all of us, are trying to tell you many of the things you believe in are baseless and wrong. We might disagree about some others, but there is a core common belief among all of us that a lot of your positions are not correct at all.

If you doubt me, if you think people agree with the things I just mentioned, then just ask them directly. Ask them if they believe there is a pandemic, and don't fudge the claim but ask them directly just like you claimed there was not. Ask them about the claims you've made specifically.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Eirikrautha on January 01, 2022, 06:52:24 PM
Kiero might be a paranoid schizophrenic, given his behavior here. And you and guys like you keep enabling him. He probably badly needs help, but he won't get it because you guys keep normalizing his mental illness. You make him think his lizard-people views are normal. You're not helping him, or anyone else here. You're not fighting the good fight by defending his deranged posts. This is not a good outlet for your instinctive devil's advocate. You may be doing real life damage to a guy who needs help by propping him up because you want to "get one over" on me. Even though you can do that with me on a dozen other topics which are not about Kiero's homeless rantings about a secret cabal trying to take over the world.

It's not a "conspiracy" when all the information is out in the public domain, you stupid fuck.

As for my mental health, just fine, thanks. I haven't engaged in the mass delusion that there's a pandemic, or accepted humiliation after humiliation that would make me doubt what my own senses and reasoning can tell me.

Every single person here, all the people defending you, all agree there is in fact a pandemic. All of them. We all thing you're behaving oddly in denying there is a pandemic.

We might disagree about the extent, the vaccines and masks and other approaches to it, but we all agree there is a real pandemic and that Covid really does kill way more people than you think it does.

We all also agree your claims about 1/3 of people who get Covid get it from a hospital are wrong, that people who die from Covid while on a ventilator are dying from the drug used with the ventilator is wrong, that so many of your claims about covid are wrong.

You have bought into many wild conspiracy theories. People here, all of us, are trying to tell you many of the things you believe in are baseless and wrong. We might disagree about some others, but there is a core common belief among all of us that a lot of your positions are not correct at all.

If you doubt me, if you think people agree with the things I just mentioned, then just ask them directly. Ask them if they believe there is a pandemic, and don't fudge the claim but ask them directly just like you claimed there was not. Ask them about the claims you've made specifically.
Uhhhh, the only delusional person here is you, if you think you can speak for anyone but yourself.  Covid is a pandemic only if the flu is a pandemic.  Covid kills about 4x as many as the flu, but still has a 99.95% survival rate.  It might technically qualify as a pandemic, assuming you use the new definitions of things promulgated by the CDC every time they need to deflect (like when they changed the definition of "vaccine" so that the mRNA jabs would qualify).

Just because you have voices in your head agreeing with you, doesn't mean you have majority support...
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on January 01, 2022, 08:24:59 PM
Kiero might be a paranoid schizophrenic, given his behavior here. And you and guys like you keep enabling him. He probably badly needs help, but he won't get it because you guys keep normalizing his mental illness. You make him think his lizard-people views are normal. You're not helping him, or anyone else here. You're not fighting the good fight by defending his deranged posts. This is not a good outlet for your instinctive devil's advocate. You may be doing real life damage to a guy who needs help by propping him up because you want to "get one over" on me. Even though you can do that with me on a dozen other topics which are not about Kiero's homeless rantings about a secret cabal trying to take over the world.

It's not a "conspiracy" when all the information is out in the public domain, you stupid fuck.

As for my mental health, just fine, thanks. I haven't engaged in the mass delusion that there's a pandemic, or accepted humiliation after humiliation that would make me doubt what my own senses and reasoning can tell me.

Every single person here, all the people defending you, all agree there is in fact a pandemic. All of them. We all thing you're behaving oddly in denying there is a pandemic.

We might disagree about the extent, the vaccines and masks and other approaches to it, but we all agree there is a real pandemic and that Covid really does kill way more people than you think it does.

We all also agree your claims about 1/3 of people who get Covid get it from a hospital are wrong, that people who die from Covid while on a ventilator are dying from the drug used with the ventilator is wrong, that so many of your claims about covid are wrong.

You have bought into many wild conspiracy theories. People here, all of us, are trying to tell you many of the things you believe in are baseless and wrong. We might disagree about some others, but there is a core common belief among all of us that a lot of your positions are not correct at all.

If you doubt me, if you think people agree with the things I just mentioned, then just ask them directly. Ask them if they believe there is a pandemic, and don't fudge the claim but ask them directly just like you claimed there was not. Ask them about the claims you've made specifically.
Uhhhh, the only delusional person here is you, if you think you can speak for anyone but yourself.  Covid is a pandemic only if the flu is a pandemic.  Covid kills about 4x as many as the flu, but still has a 99.95% survival rate.  It might technically qualify as a pandemic, assuming you use the new definitions of things promulgated by the CDC every time they need to deflect (like when they changed the definition of "vaccine" so that the mRNA jabs would qualify).

Just because you have voices in your head agreeing with you, doesn't mean you have majority support...
It's a pandemic, but it's not another 1918 pandemic. It's comparable to the lesser pandemics of the 20th century, like the 1957 and 1968 flus. This isn't a case of the definition changing. Though the risk has been dramatically overplayed, especially among those who aren't in the high risk categories.

The flu is different, because it's endemic. A pandemic implies something new, not something that's been around forever and will always be with us. Though that is where omicron seems to be heading.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on January 02, 2022, 05:47:05 AM
Every single person here, all the people defending you, all agree there is in fact a pandemic. All of them. We all thing you're behaving oddly in denying there is a pandemic.

We might disagree about the extent, the vaccines and masks and other approaches to it, but we all agree there is a real pandemic and that Covid really does kill way more people than you think it does.

We all also agree your claims about 1/3 of people who get Covid get it from a hospital are wrong, that people who die from Covid while on a ventilator are dying from the drug used with the ventilator is wrong, that so many of your claims about covid are wrong.

You have bought into many wild conspiracy theories. People here, all of us, are trying to tell you many of the things you believe in are baseless and wrong. We might disagree about some others, but there is a core common belief among all of us that a lot of your positions are not correct at all.

If you doubt me, if you think people agree with the things I just mentioned, then just ask them directly. Ask them if they believe there is a pandemic, and don't fudge the claim but ask them directly just like you claimed there was not. Ask them about the claims you've made specifically.

Bless, you've got that lefty affliction where you think "consensus" means shit. I don't give a flying fuck what most imbeciles believe, because this "pandemic" has shown 95% or more of people have nothing functioning between their ears.

My "claim" about a third of people getting covid from hospital is backed up by the NHS' own data, go look you moron. Covid really doesn't kill that many people, but you keep believing the deliberately distorted statistics being used to justify all this bullshit.

I don't "doubt you", I know you're full of utter garbage, because you believe the narrative. Which is patent bollocks.

It's a pandemic, but it's not another 1918 pandemic. It's comparable to the lesser pandemics of the 20th century, like the 1957 and 1968 flus. This isn't a case of the definition changing. Though the risk has been dramatically overplayed, especially among those who aren't in the high risk categories.

The flu is different, because it's endemic. A pandemic implies something new, not something that's been around forever and will always be with us. Though that is where omicron seems to be heading.

Flu is different because it can actually be deadly to healthy people. Coronavirus pretty much only kills old and sick people, and never merited any of this production.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on January 02, 2022, 12:42:55 PM
It's a pandemic, but it's not another 1918 pandemic. It's comparable to the lesser pandemics of the 20th century, like the 1957 and 1968 flus. This isn't a case of the definition changing. Though the risk has been dramatically overplayed, especially among those who aren't in the high risk categories.

The flu is different, because it's endemic. A pandemic implies something new, not something that's been around forever and will always be with us. Though that is where omicron seems to be heading.

Flu is different because it can actually be deadly to healthy people. Coronavirus pretty much only kills old and sick people, and never merited any of this production.
It's true that the fatality rate based on age is extremely steep, but it's not true that the young are completely immune to covid-19. Roughly 500 kids have died of the novel coronavirus in the US. Compare that to the flu, which kills up to 200 children per year, usually less. So while covid-19 is several times deadlier than the flu overall, it's roughly equivalent to the flu among the the young, a bit more dangerous among the working age population (but nothing to merit the widespread panic), and very dangerous for the the elderly (60-65+). Co-morbidities have an impact, but they're overplayed. The primary factor is age.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on January 02, 2022, 01:34:35 PM
Local EDs are backing up again with floods of patients wanting to be tested despite most of them having minor symptoms or even no symptoms. Hospitalizations are lower by percentage than back in the summer, but are almost up to the same totals considering how many Covid patients we're seeing. The biggest issue right now is diverting enough resources to triage and then discharge the minor cases while still having enough to deal with the (relatively few) severe cases. And there are some severe cases even from Omicron, and not all of them are old nor afflicted with significant comorbidities (had a healthy 29 y/o with significant upper respiratory inflammation restricting airway ventilation even without the pneumonia that was previously one of the biggest issues). Among the sickest that we've had to admit, most continue to be among the unvaccinated.

Keep in mind we are testing a lot of international travelers that are trying to get clearance for post-holiday return flights. Many of them come in to have the whole family tested at once. They couldn't get into the normal testing sites on some of the holidays, so they jammed into the EDs.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: dkabq on January 02, 2022, 04:04:29 PM
It's a pandemic, but it's not another 1918 pandemic. It's comparable to the lesser pandemics of the 20th century, like the 1957 and 1968 flus. This isn't a case of the definition changing. Though the risk has been dramatically overplayed, especially among those who aren't in the high risk categories.

The flu is different, because it's endemic. A pandemic implies something new, not something that's been around forever and will always be with us. Though that is where omicron seems to be heading.

Flu is different because it can actually be deadly to healthy people. Coronavirus pretty much only kills old and sick people, and never merited any of this production.
It's true that the fatality rate based on age is extremely steep, but it's not true that the young are completely immune to covid-19. Roughly 500 kids have died of the novel coronavirus in the US. Compare that to the flu, which kills up to 200 children per year, usually less. So while covid-19 is several times deadlier than the flu overall, it's roughly equivalent to the flu among the the young, a bit more dangerous among the working age population (but nothing to merit the widespread panic), and very dangerous for the the elderly (60-65+). Co-morbidities have an impact, but they're overplayed. The primary factor is age.

Overall I agree.

Here are more specifics on childhood deaths.

The latest CDC provisional numbers finds that there have been 678 covid deaths in 0-17 year olds since 1/1/2020. Divide that by 1.75 equals 388 deaths/yr.
https://data.cdc.gov/NCHS/Provisional-COVID-19-Death-Counts-by-Age-in-Years-/3apk-4u4f/data.

Conversely, the CDC estimates that in the 2019-2020 flu season, 434 flu deaths may have occurred (199 deaths were actually reported).
https://www.cdc.gov/flu/highrisk/children.htm

Comparing those numbers to leading causes of childhood death:
https://www.advisory.com/daily-briefing/2018/12/21/child-death
motor vehicle crash = 4074
firearm-related injury = 3134
malignant neoplasm = 1853
suffocation = 1430
drowning = 995
drug OD/poisoning = 982
congenital abnormalities = 979
heart disease = 599
fire or burns = 340
chronic respiratory disease = 274

Your child is 10x more likely to die in a car crash than from covid. Moreover, I would bet that the vast majority of childhood covid deaths were children in poor health to begin with.

Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on January 02, 2022, 04:45:00 PM
Your child is 10x more likely to die in a car crash than from covid.
That's one of the key things that is almost entirely missing from the messaging surrounding covid-19: Context. They use absolute numbers, because absolute numbers in the hundreds or thousands sound scary. They post the total death count at the top of pages and running along the bottom of the screen, because it causes fear and drives people to continue to watch. They do profiles on individuals who died, because the plural of anecdotes may not be data, but the plural of emotional sob stories is ratings.

If they did that with heart disease, or cancer, or smoking, or car crashes, or people falling off ladders, we'd be terrified of all of them.

Bad things happen to people every day. And if we really want to make things better, we need to focus on the largest ones we can do something about. That's why we need to deal with this as statistics, because the human emotional reaction to individual suffering is not useful when scaled to 330 million people.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on January 02, 2022, 05:46:30 PM
Local EDs are backing up again with floods of patients wanting to be tested despite most of them having minor symptoms or even no symptoms. 

Yes, we call them hypochondriacs, enabled by the fear-mongering bullshit spewed non-stop by the media.

Hospitalizations are lower by percentage than back in the summer, but are almost up to the same totals considering how many Covid patients we're seeing.

Not happening in the UK, hospitalisations (and deaths, incidentally) are flat:

(https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/15c92c1819e255acc334db2fa6bbc70605c2f2e7fff6d2a9426571a8640b39d9.jpg?w=600&h=323)
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on January 02, 2022, 06:21:10 PM
Fourth jabs approved in Israel - you didn't think it would stop at three, did you?

https://www.rte.ie/news/coronavirus/2022/0102/1269480-coronavirus-global/
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Daztur on January 02, 2022, 08:37:06 PM
Fourth jabs approved in Israel - you didn't think it would stop at three, did you?

https://www.rte.ie/news/coronavirus/2022/0102/1269480-coronavirus-global/

Of all of the anti-vax talking points this one confuses me to the most. Why would anyone who is fine with vaccines suddenly freak out about a few booster shots?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: dkabq on January 02, 2022, 09:57:20 PM
Fourth jabs approved in Israel - you didn't think it would stop at three, did you?

https://www.rte.ie/news/coronavirus/2022/0102/1269480-coronavirus-global/

Of all of the anti-vax talking points this one confuses me to the most. Why would anyone who is fine with vaccines suddenly freak out about a few booster shots?

Perhaps if it actually conferred immunity people would be less concerned. Of if it even stopped spread (which even St. Fauci says it doesn't). Also, show me any other vaccine that requires a booster every six months.

If you are comfortable taking a dose every six months because it reduces symptoms and hence chance of hospitalization or death, go for it. But if someone else isn't, that should be as much of your (or the government's) concern as someone being obese, out-of-shape, unhealthy eater, etc. Or are you in favor of a government mandate that forces you to eat healthy, not be overweight or obese, and be fit?

There is a malicious part of me that would *love* to see such a mandate. Every dollar of health care spent on people that live unhealthy lifestyles causes my health insurance premiums to go up. And I know from my wife's experience (works at a rehab hospital) a large number of the medicade patients are obese, uncontrolled diabetics, alcoholics, and/or drug addicts -- fuckers are stealing my tax dollars.

So while my 10+ pounds of covid weight and lack of exercise would get me caught up in the mandate, my suffering would be worth it to see the mandate inflicted on the pro vax mandate people.


Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Shasarak on January 03, 2022, 03:41:57 AM
Fourth jabs approved in Israel - you didn't think it would stop at three, did you?

https://www.rte.ie/news/coronavirus/2022/0102/1269480-coronavirus-global/

Of all of the anti-vax talking points this one confuses me to the most. Why would anyone who is fine with vaccines suddenly freak out about a few booster shots?

Dont people realise that other vaccines like Tetanus require boosters every ten years or so.  Logically if you think the Tetanus vaccine and booster works then you should have no problem with other completely unrelated vaccines needing a booster every 3 months or so.

QED
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on January 03, 2022, 05:37:19 AM
Of all of the anti-vax talking points this one confuses me to the most. Why would anyone who is fine with vaccines suddenly freak out about a few booster shots?

You really have a short memory. The promise was two jabs and that was it. All of a sudden it's now four jabs a year.

And the fucking thing doesn't even work, people who've been triple jabbed are still getting covid, repeatedly. What was it for, exactly?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: dkabq on January 03, 2022, 06:13:13 AM
Fourth jabs approved in Israel - you didn't think it would stop at three, did you?

https://www.rte.ie/news/coronavirus/2022/0102/1269480-coronavirus-global/

Of all of the anti-vax talking points this one confuses me to the most. Why would anyone who is fine with vaccines suddenly freak out about a few booster shots?

Dont people realise that other vaccines like Tetanus require boosters every ten years or so.  Logically if you think the Tetanus vaccine and booster works then you should have no problem with other completely unrelated vaccines needing a booster every 3 months or so.

QED

There is a significant difference (factor of 20) between getting a booster shot every 10 years and one every 6 months. Moreover, the tetanus vaccine immunizes you against tetanus, while the covid vaccines do not.

That said, I 100% support you if you want to get a covid booster every six months (or four months or three months) ad nauseam. In the same way I support you choosing to exercise/not exercise or have that second piece of cake.


Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on January 03, 2022, 06:49:56 AM
Fourth jabs approved in Israel - you didn't think it would stop at three, did you?

https://www.rte.ie/news/coronavirus/2022/0102/1269480-coronavirus-global/

Of all of the anti-vax talking points this one confuses me to the most. Why would anyone who is fine with vaccines suddenly freak out about a few booster shots?

   Not sure if serious.  Do you know many actual live people?  Because a whole bunch of them who felt OK with trusting massive multinational entities who made ENORMOUS profits from more or less mandating a shot are starting to scratch their heads a little when that same swollen conglomerate is now saying there will be more, and more, and more shots in perpetuity.  What really confuses me, is trying to say people who are concerned about taking a shot of magic juice from conglomerates who have looong histories of being sued and doing damage with drugs in the past, from bad reactions to causing cancer, are suddenly "anti vax" for not being too eager to line up and be a lab rat for billionaires. 
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Reckall on January 03, 2022, 10:05:58 AM
Kiero might be a paranoid schizophrenic, given his behavior here. And you and guys like you keep enabling him. He probably badly needs help, but he won't get it because you guys keep normalizing his mental illness. You make him think his lizard-people views are normal. You're not helping him, or anyone else here. You're not fighting the good fight by defending his deranged posts. This is not a good outlet for your instinctive devil's advocate. You may be doing real life damage to a guy who needs help by propping him up because you want to "get one over" on me. Even though you can do that with me on a dozen other topics which are not about Kiero's homeless rantings about a secret cabal trying to take over the world.

I agree with this. Even if he is not paranoid schizophrenic it is obvious that he is in full denial mode. And with "full" I mean "total". Reasoning with him leads to nowhere: when someone, as "proof", points to a page whose contents are declared a fraud on the very same page you know everything you need to know.

I hope that, somehow, he will get professional help. But it is not by chance that "deprogrammer" is a job. Family, friends... even helpful people on the internet can do nothing. It is a sad reality but it is true.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on January 03, 2022, 10:11:17 AM
Kiero might be a paranoid schizophrenic, given his behavior here. And you and guys like you keep enabling him. He probably badly needs help, but he won't get it because you guys keep normalizing his mental illness. You make him think his lizard-people views are normal. You're not helping him, or anyone else here. You're not fighting the good fight by defending his deranged posts. This is not a good outlet for your instinctive devil's advocate. You may be doing real life damage to a guy who needs help by propping him up because you want to "get one over" on me. Even though you can do that with me on a dozen other topics which are not about Kiero's homeless rantings about a secret cabal trying to take over the world.

I agree with this. Even if he is not paranoid schizophrenic it is obvious that he is in full denial mode. And with "full" I mean "total". Reasoning with him leads to nowhere: when someone, as "proof", points to a page whose contents are declared a fraud on the very same page you know everything you need to know.

I hope that, somehow, he will get professional help. But it is not by chance that "deprogrammer" is a job. Family, friends... even helpful people on the internet can do nothing. It is a sad reality but it is true.
You know what's fucking insane?

Random people with no qualifications whatsoever making clinical diagnoses over the internet and coming to the conclusion that people who disagree with them on a few points are suffering from some of the most extreme mental disorders known to exist.

I think Kiero is wrong about many, many things. But you're the nutjob. And naturally, I'm using the formal, DSM definition of "nutjob".
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Reckall on January 03, 2022, 10:28:35 AM
Kiero might be a paranoid schizophrenic, given his behavior here. And you and guys like you keep enabling him. He probably badly needs help, but he won't get it because you guys keep normalizing his mental illness. You make him think his lizard-people views are normal. You're not helping him, or anyone else here. You're not fighting the good fight by defending his deranged posts. This is not a good outlet for your instinctive devil's advocate. You may be doing real life damage to a guy who needs help by propping him up because you want to "get one over" on me. Even though you can do that with me on a dozen other topics which are not about Kiero's homeless rantings about a secret cabal trying to take over the world.

I agree with this. Even if he is not paranoid schizophrenic it is obvious that he is in full denial mode. And with "full" I mean "total". Reasoning with him leads to nowhere: when someone, as "proof", points to a page whose contents are declared a fraud on the very same page you know everything you need to know.

I hope that, somehow, he will get professional help. But it is not by chance that "deprogrammer" is a job. Family, friends... even helpful people on the internet can do nothing. It is a sad reality but it is true.
You know what's fucking insane?

Random people with no qualifications whatsoever making clinical diagnoses over the internet and coming to the conclusion that people who disagree with them on a few points are suffering from some of the most extreme mental disorders known to exist.

As amazing as it sounds, there is an objective reality out there. In this objective reality I wrote:

"I was in a clinic when, all of sudden, the clinic was turned into a COVID ward and I was kicked out".

Kiero immediately turned this into:

"You are flaccid, you do not exercise and you got COVID".

This is only an example. Kiero not only points to false sources: he literally reads something that goes against his worldview and immediately his mind changes the very contents of what he read. I'm not even sure that he is aware of this. You can find many examples of this in this very thread.

Quote
I think Kiero is wrong about many, many things. But you're the nutjob. And naturally, I'm using the formal, DSM definition of "nutjob".

By your reasoning, all the people here who tried to engage with Kiero and point out his inconsistencies are, by your definition, "nutjobs" - because they are trying to help someone in denial of the very pandemic. I mean: they are already living their lives according to their beliefs, me included. There is no personal gain in trying to help Kiero.

But of course the mistake, here, is to call your reasoning "reasoning".
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: 3catcircus on January 03, 2022, 10:38:39 AM
Kiero might be a paranoid schizophrenic, given his behavior here. And you and guys like you keep enabling him. He probably badly needs help, but he won't get it because you guys keep normalizing his mental illness. You make him think his lizard-people views are normal. You're not helping him, or anyone else here. You're not fighting the good fight by defending his deranged posts. This is not a good outlet for your instinctive devil's advocate. You may be doing real life damage to a guy who needs help by propping him up because you want to "get one over" on me. Even though you can do that with me on a dozen other topics which are not about Kiero's homeless rantings about a secret cabal trying to take over the world.

I agree with this. Even if he is not paranoid schizophrenic it is obvious that he is in full denial mode. And with "full" I mean "total". Reasoning with him leads to nowhere: when someone, as "proof", points to a page whose contents are declared a fraud on the very same page you know everything you need to know.

I hope that, somehow, he will get professional help. But it is not by chance that "deprogrammer" is a job. Family, friends... even helpful people on the internet can do nothing. It is a sad reality but it is true.
You know what's fucking insane?

Random people with no qualifications whatsoever making clinical diagnoses over the internet and coming to the conclusion that people who disagree with them on a few points are suffering from some of the most extreme mental disorders known to exist.

As amazing as it sounds, there is an objective reality out there. In this objective reality I wrote:

"I was in a clinic when, all of sudden, the clinic was turned into a COVID ward and I was kicked out".

Kiero immediately turned this into:

"You are flaccid, you do not exercise and you got COVID".

This is only an example. Kiero not only points to false sources: he literally reads something that goes against his worldview and immediately his mind changes the very contents of what he read. I'm not even sure that he is aware of this. You can find many examples of this in this very thread.

Quote
I think Kiero is wrong about many, many things. But you're the nutjob. And naturally, I'm using the formal, DSM definition of "nutjob".

By your reasoning, all the people here who tried to engage with Kiero and point out his inconsistencies are, by your definition, "nutjobs" - because they are trying to help someone in denial of the very pandemic. I mean: they are already living their lives according to their beliefs, me included. There is no personal gain in trying to help Kiero.

But of course the mistake, here, is to call your reasoning "reasoning".

Yes, but was he wrong? Are you flaccid and do you not exercise?  I assume he meant your health, being compromised by being out of shape and overweight?  If so, he isn't wrong - being overweight *is* a known contributor to lowered immune response and is a comorbidity for more severe disease.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on January 03, 2022, 10:45:28 AM
Kiero might be a paranoid schizophrenic, given his behavior here. And you and guys like you keep enabling him. He probably badly needs help, but he won't get it because you guys keep normalizing his mental illness. You make him think his lizard-people views are normal. You're not helping him, or anyone else here. You're not fighting the good fight by defending his deranged posts. This is not a good outlet for your instinctive devil's advocate. You may be doing real life damage to a guy who needs help by propping him up because you want to "get one over" on me. Even though you can do that with me on a dozen other topics which are not about Kiero's homeless rantings about a secret cabal trying to take over the world.

I agree with this. Even if he is not paranoid schizophrenic it is obvious that he is in full denial mode. And with "full" I mean "total". Reasoning with him leads to nowhere: when someone, as "proof", points to a page whose contents are declared a fraud on the very same page you know everything you need to know.

I hope that, somehow, he will get professional help. But it is not by chance that "deprogrammer" is a job. Family, friends... even helpful people on the internet can do nothing. It is a sad reality but it is true.
You know what's fucking insane?

Random people with no qualifications whatsoever making clinical diagnoses over the internet and coming to the conclusion that people who disagree with them on a few points are suffering from some of the most extreme mental disorders known to exist.

As amazing as it sounds, there is an objective reality out there. In this objective reality I wrote:

"I was in a clinic when, all of sudden, the clinic was turned into a COVID ward and I was kicked out".

Kiero immediately turned this into:

"You are flaccid, you do not exercise and you got COVID".
So your response to someone on the internet calling you a fat limp-dick is to clinically diagnose them as a paranoid schizophrenic, and then when someone points out how absolutely fucking insane that is, you just say no no no he's clearly a paranoid schizophrenic, look at this post where he called me a fat limp-dick!

You're not just a fucking nutjob, you're a hilariously un-selfaware nutjob.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Reckall on January 03, 2022, 11:16:39 AM
Kiero might be a paranoid schizophrenic, given his behavior here. And you and guys like you keep enabling him. He probably badly needs help, but he won't get it because you guys keep normalizing his mental illness. You make him think his lizard-people views are normal. You're not helping him, or anyone else here. You're not fighting the good fight by defending his deranged posts. This is not a good outlet for your instinctive devil's advocate. You may be doing real life damage to a guy who needs help by propping him up because you want to "get one over" on me. Even though you can do that with me on a dozen other topics which are not about Kiero's homeless rantings about a secret cabal trying to take over the world.

I agree with this. Even if he is not paranoid schizophrenic it is obvious that he is in full denial mode. And with "full" I mean "total". Reasoning with him leads to nowhere: when someone, as "proof", points to a page whose contents are declared a fraud on the very same page you know everything you need to know.

I hope that, somehow, he will get professional help. But it is not by chance that "deprogrammer" is a job. Family, friends... even helpful people on the internet can do nothing. It is a sad reality but it is true.
You know what's fucking insane?

Random people with no qualifications whatsoever making clinical diagnoses over the internet and coming to the conclusion that people who disagree with them on a few points are suffering from some of the most extreme mental disorders known to exist.

As amazing as it sounds, there is an objective reality out there. In this objective reality I wrote:

"I was in a clinic when, all of sudden, the clinic was turned into a COVID ward and I was kicked out".

Kiero immediately turned this into:

"You are flaccid, you do not exercise and you got COVID".
So your response to someone on the internet calling you a fat limp-dick

Kiero didn't do that. He literally changed a sentence into something literally different. I groaned only because that was the moment when I understood that he was beyond non-professional help.

Quote
is to clinically diagnose them as a paranoid schizophrenic

Maybe. And it was Mystwell who mused about that, not me (as anyone can see in the very posts you quoted). Please, an applause to another one who fails at basic reading.

Quote
, and then when someone points out how absolutely fucking insane that is, you just say no no no he's clearly a paranoid schizophrenic, look at this post where he called me a fat limp-dick!

You're not just a fucking nutjob, you're a hilariously un-selfaware nutjob.

Have you just diagnosed me? :D
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Reckall on January 03, 2022, 11:23:14 AM
Kiero might be a paranoid schizophrenic, given his behavior here. And you and guys like you keep enabling him. He probably badly needs help, but he won't get it because you guys keep normalizing his mental illness. You make him think his lizard-people views are normal. You're not helping him, or anyone else here. You're not fighting the good fight by defending his deranged posts. This is not a good outlet for your instinctive devil's advocate. You may be doing real life damage to a guy who needs help by propping him up because you want to "get one over" on me. Even though you can do that with me on a dozen other topics which are not about Kiero's homeless rantings about a secret cabal trying to take over the world.

I agree with this. Even if he is not paranoid schizophrenic it is obvious that he is in full denial mode. And with "full" I mean "total". Reasoning with him leads to nowhere: when someone, as "proof", points to a page whose contents are declared a fraud on the very same page you know everything you need to know.

I hope that, somehow, he will get professional help. But it is not by chance that "deprogrammer" is a job. Family, friends... even helpful people on the internet can do nothing. It is a sad reality but it is true.
You know what's fucking insane?

Random people with no qualifications whatsoever making clinical diagnoses over the internet and coming to the conclusion that people who disagree with them on a few points are suffering from some of the most extreme mental disorders known to exist.

As amazing as it sounds, there is an objective reality out there. In this objective reality I wrote:

"I was in a clinic when, all of sudden, the clinic was turned into a COVID ward and I was kicked out".

Kiero immediately turned this into:

"You are flaccid, you do not exercise and you got COVID".

This is only an example. Kiero not only points to false sources: he literally reads something that goes against his worldview and immediately his mind changes the very contents of what he read. I'm not even sure that he is aware of this. You can find many examples of this in this very thread.

Quote
I think Kiero is wrong about many, many things. But you're the nutjob. And naturally, I'm using the formal, DSM definition of "nutjob".

By your reasoning, all the people here who tried to engage with Kiero and point out his inconsistencies are, by your definition, "nutjobs" - because they are trying to help someone in denial of the very pandemic. I mean: they are already living their lives according to their beliefs, me included. There is no personal gain in trying to help Kiero.

But of course the mistake, here, is to call your reasoning "reasoning".

Yes, but was he wrong? Are you flaccid and do you not exercise?

No and no. I admit that since this COVID business started I let me go a bit, but up to 2019 I visited foreign cities by walking 6-8 hours a day. And I do exercise at home.

Having said that, after turning 50 I do a general check-up (and an in-depth cardiological one) every year. Not many people know that you can have low cholesterol, low blood pressure and a good shape - and still risk an infarction because a single vessel became clogged. It is not pleasant and it costs but I feel it is worth it.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on January 03, 2022, 11:31:24 AM
Quote
is to clinically diagnose them as a paranoid schizophrenic

Maybe. And it was Mystwell who mused about that, not me. Please, an applause to another one who fails at basic reading.
Funny, I could have swore you said "I agree with this."

Oh wait you did. So I'm not the one who fails at basic reading.

Have you just diagnosed me? :D
Yep. As I said in my previous post, I'm using the official DSM definition of nutjob, so it's a formal diagnosis based on a cursoryextensive analysis of one post and my credentials as a self-licensed internet psychologotherapistopath.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Reckall on January 03, 2022, 11:48:25 AM
Quote
is to clinically diagnose them as a paranoid schizophrenic

Maybe. And it was Mystwell who mused about that, not me. Please, an applause to another one who fails at basic reading.
Funny, I could have swore you said "I agree with this."

True. I agreed with might be and He probably badly needs help. And I still do. His posts made me worry about him, not the pandemic. I think it is only natural. Your mileage may vary.

Quote
Oh wait you did. So I'm not the one who fails at basic reading.

Yes, you are. Not only that, but you are also obsessed at "being right on the internet". This is my official diagnosis. ;D
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on January 03, 2022, 01:01:18 PM
I could offer a presumptive diagnosis, but I'm not being paid here to do work and there's no emergent need, so...
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on January 03, 2022, 01:25:43 PM
Yes, you are. Not only that, but you are also obsessed at "being right on the internet". This is my official diagnosis. ;D
Says the pot telling the kettle that Black Lives Matter.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Shasarak on January 03, 2022, 05:38:03 PM
I think that we should just start symptomatic treatment while waiting for final diagnosis.

Its the only way to make money, I mean for his health and safety.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on January 03, 2022, 05:59:16 PM
I find it utterly hilarious that you muppets suffering from mass formation psychosis are calling me delusional.

The official narrative is the delusion, not the rejection of it. How do cowards like you get through a day, when you're scared of getting the sniffles?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on January 03, 2022, 06:23:35 PM
I think that we should just start symptomatic treatment while waiting for final diagnosis.

Its the only way to make money, I mean for his health and safety.
I think we should mandate a vaccine, but clearly the existing consequences like losing a job or not being able to leave your house aren't working. Maybe threaten to take a kidney, or a left eye? That sounds like a tolerant and compassionate solution.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on January 03, 2022, 06:30:20 PM
I find it utterly hilarious that you muppets suffering from mass formation psychosis are calling me delusional.

The official narrative is the delusion, not the rejection of it. How do cowards like you get through a day, when you're scared of getting the sniffles?
The official narrative of reality is the delusion? Uh huh... The Matrix is not reality you dipship.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on January 03, 2022, 06:55:40 PM
Every single person here, all the people defending you, all agree there is in fact a pandemic. All of them. We all thing you're behaving oddly in denying there is a pandemic.

We might disagree about the extent, the vaccines and masks and other approaches to it, but we all agree there is a real pandemic and that Covid really does kill way more people than you think it does.

We all also agree your claims about 1/3 of people who get Covid get it from a hospital are wrong, that people who die from Covid while on a ventilator are dying from the drug used with the ventilator is wrong, that so many of your claims about covid are wrong.

You have bought into many wild conspiracy theories. People here, all of us, are trying to tell you many of the things you believe in are baseless and wrong. We might disagree about some others, but there is a core common belief among all of us that a lot of your positions are not correct at all.

If you doubt me, if you think people agree with the things I just mentioned, then just ask them directly. Ask them if they believe there is a pandemic, and don't fudge the claim but ask them directly just like you claimed there was not. Ask them about the claims you've made specifically.

Bless, you've got that lefty affliction where you think "consensus" means shit.

No, you pea brained moron, "everyone" disagreeing with you, even people otherwise on your side, is not about consensus. When EVERYONE disagrees with your view, including those otherwise on your side, that's when you ask yourself if you might have been mistaken.

Except for you. Because you appear to have a mental illness.

Quote
I don't give a flying fuck what most imbeciles believe

You think other posters here (not me, but the guys who usually agree with you) are imbeciles? For example, are you calling Pat an imbecile for agreeing Covid is a pandemic by the ordinary definition of pandemics?

If everyone thinks you're wrong about Nancy Pelosi being a lizardperson, maybe she's not a lizardperson but just an ordinary bad human being?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on January 03, 2022, 07:10:55 PM
You think other posters here (not me, but the guys who usually agree with you) are imbeciles? For example, are you calling Pat an imbecile for agreeing Covid is a pandemic by the ordinary definition of pandemics?

If everyone thinks you're wrong about Nancy Pelosi being a lizardperson, maybe she's not a lizardperson but just an ordinary bad human being?
I usually agree with Kiero? You appear to have a mental illness.

And Hillary's the lizardperson, not Pelosi. Everyone knows that.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Reckall on January 04, 2022, 02:51:01 AM
I find it utterly hilarious that you muppets suffering from mass formation psychosis are calling me delusional.

...And here we have Kiero diagnosing a whole group of posters! Welcome to the nutjobs club!
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Shasarak on January 04, 2022, 04:38:56 AM
I find it utterly hilarious that you muppets suffering from mass formation psychosis are calling me delusional.

...And here we have Kiero diagnosing a whole group of posters! Welcome to the nutjobs club!

Given your avatar I was expecting you to diagnose everyone with Lupus.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on January 04, 2022, 11:06:20 AM
Misty, HappyDerp, Reckall, Daztur, FelixGamingX1 - imbeciles all. There we go, cleared that up.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Reckall on January 04, 2022, 11:55:39 AM
Misty, HappyDerp, Reckall, Daztur, FelixGamingX1 - imbeciles all. There we go, cleared that up.

So, someone just launched a conspiracy to get the World rid off imbeciles (we sheeples) with the result that they will face only intelligent people? Not smart at all.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on January 04, 2022, 12:21:28 PM
So, someone just launched a conspiracy to get the World rid off imbeciles (we sheeples) with the result that they will face only intelligent people? Not smart at all.

There is no conspiracy when their plans are all out in the open. You'll own nothing and you'll be happy.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ghostmaker on January 04, 2022, 12:42:33 PM
So, someone just launched a conspiracy to get the World rid off imbeciles (we sheeples) with the result that they will face only intelligent people? Not smart at all.

There is no conspiracy when their plans are all out in the open. You'll own nothing and you'll be happy.
Don't forget the push for insect protein. Because, you know, beef is BAD.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Banjo Destructo on January 04, 2022, 01:24:09 PM
Skipping all the other posts to make this joke. Maybe we should just let all vaccinated people lock themselves in prisons so that they can keep themselves safe from the epidemic.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Reckall on January 04, 2022, 01:30:51 PM
So, someone just launched a conspiracy to get the World rid off imbeciles (we sheeples) with the result that they will face only intelligent people? Not smart at all.

There is no conspiracy when their plans are all out in the open. You'll own nothing and you'll be happy.

So, not only someone launched a plan to rid the World of imbeciles they could easily dominate (not smart) but they did it in the open? Truly not smart - squared.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Eirikrautha on January 04, 2022, 02:37:21 PM
So, someone just launched a conspiracy to get the World rid off imbeciles (we sheeples) with the result that they will face only intelligent people? Not smart at all.

There is no conspiracy when their plans are all out in the open. You'll own nothing and you'll be happy.

So, not only someone launched a plan to rid the World of imbeciles they could easily dominate (not smart) but they did it in the open? Truly not smart - squared.

Well, it fooled you... so what does that say about you?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Reckall on January 04, 2022, 03:10:23 PM
So, someone just launched a conspiracy to get the World rid off imbeciles (we sheeples) with the result that they will face only intelligent people? Not smart at all.

There is no conspiracy when their plans are all out in the open. You'll own nothing and you'll be happy.

So, not only someone launched a plan to rid the World of imbeciles they could easily dominate (not smart) but they did it in the open? Truly not smart - squared.

Well, it fooled you... so what does that say about you?

That bad reasoning still needs reasoning in the first place. I freely admit that unchallenged delusions bar everything from entering your head - making you live forever in a Matrix of your own creation.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: dkabq on January 05, 2022, 06:20:17 AM
Handing out unemployment aid to people who refuse to get vaccinated is silly
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2022/01/02/handing-out-unemployment-aid-people-who-refuse-get-vaccinated-is-silly/
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ghostmaker on January 05, 2022, 09:24:47 AM
Handing out unemployment aid to people who refuse to get vaccinated is silly
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2022/01/02/handing-out-unemployment-aid-people-who-refuse-get-vaccinated-is-silly/
And then suddenly, for no reason at all, the shooting started.

Ye gods.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on January 07, 2022, 07:06:04 PM
An anaesthetist tells our Health Secretary why he doesn't need the jabs - and he's treated covid patients: https://twitter.com/Dempz8/status/1479546670941716486

You won't see this full length footage on the BBC or Sky, who've already truncated it to spin a different story.

I predict a reverse ferret coming, there's a jab mandate for healthcare staff who will be sacked in April if they don't comply.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on January 08, 2022, 06:15:00 PM
And there we have it, one of the main newspapers in Scotland tomorrow features this:

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FInR3i2XIAAECYF?format=jpg&name=small)

Didn't I say they were coming for my kids? Thank fuck I don't live in Scotland, but all the vaxholes in England will be trying to use this as persuasive material to do the same here.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Shasarak on January 09, 2022, 06:09:39 AM
And there we have it, one of the main newspapers in Scotland tomorrow features this:

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FInR3i2XIAAECYF?format=jpg&name=small)

Didn't I say they were coming for my kids? Thank fuck I don't live in Scotland, but all the vaxholes in England will be trying to use this as persuasive material to do the same here.

That is unbelievable!


I just cant believe that you could lose up to half a stone in 4 weeks!

Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on January 09, 2022, 06:55:51 AM
That is unbelievable!


I just cant believe that you could lose up to half a stone in 4 weeks!

In all likelihood, it'll mostly be water.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on January 09, 2022, 06:15:10 PM
In connection with the ICC case:

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FIr-rNDXsAMxGZ9?format=jpg&name=small)(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FIr-rYcXIAU2_kM?format=jpg&name=small)

Just a "conspiracy theory" right?

The evidence referred to is here: https://www.saveusnow.org.uk/covid-vaccine-scientific-proof-lethal/
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Reckall on January 09, 2022, 06:53:15 PM
In connection with the ICC case:

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FIr-rNDXsAMxGZ9?format=jpg&name=small)(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FIr-rYcXIAU2_kM?format=jpg&name=small)

Just a "conspiracy theory" right?

And a bizarre one on that. They do create a fake pandemic and then they do come after themselves. ???
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: jhkim on January 10, 2022, 04:42:02 PM
Just a "conspiracy theory" right?

The evidence referred to is here: https://www.saveusnow.org.uk/covid-vaccine-scientific-proof-lethal/

OK, I agree that simply because something posits a conspiracy, that does not mean it is untrue. There have indeed been conspiracies within history, and covert actions by government or entities within governments. However, I think it is worth questioning what this evidence is. When I read the content your link, the claim that I see is:

Quote
The term “vaccine” was changed recently to incorporate this illegal, unlawful medical experiment to facilitate usage of mRNA technology that is demonstrably not a vaccine, and which contains biologically toxic nano-metamaterials associated with 5G urban data gathering capability.

Metal nanoparticulates are known in science to be genotoxic—a poison that can also cause sterilization. The dangers posed to the victims in the near term from this medical battery are now known. However, the long term lethality of this weapon is not as yet realized due to the debilitating effects it has on the immune system, causing  Acquired Immunodeficiency Syndrome(AIDS).

We can now confirm the 2017 depopulation defence-intelligence documents, showing the planned murder of over 55 million across the United Kingdom by 2025 using this biochemical weapon.

I would be interested in debating the truth of this - but first of all, I would ask: do you believe this? If so, then I'd be willing to discuss the evidence of nano-metamaterials associated with 5G in the covid-19 vaccines. If don't believe this, though, then I'd want to talk about what the purpose of the link is.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Zirunel on January 10, 2022, 06:44:06 PM
In connection with the ICC case:

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FIr-rNDXsAMxGZ9?format=jpg&name=small)(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FIr-rYcXIAU2_kM?format=jpg&name=small)

Just a "conspiracy theory" right?

The evidence referred to is here: https://www.saveusnow.org.uk/covid-vaccine-scientific-proof-lethal/


There seems to be so much less here than meets the eye. It is interesting that the point of contact to "assist the police" in their inquiries is not actually the Met, but rather a private family law and personal injury practice in Sheffield. And have a look around, the Met is silent on this. I could be wrong but my read on this is that the Met has acknowledged receipt of a complaint from a private group of randos, but that there is no police investigation, "major" or otherwise. This looks to me like a fishing expedition by a private law firm to find something, anything, that will trash the vaccine program. They are jigging for squid and claiming there's a kraken down there but likely the most they have is a side dish of calamari.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Zirunel on January 10, 2022, 09:16:32 PM
In connection with the ICC case:

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FIr-rNDXsAMxGZ9?format=jpg&name=small)(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FIr-rYcXIAU2_kM?format=jpg&name=small)

Just a "conspiracy theory" right?

The evidence referred to is here: https://www.saveusnow.org.uk/covid-vaccine-scientific-proof-lethal/


There seems to be so much less here than meets the eye. It is interesting that the point of contact to "assist the police" in their inquiries is not actually the Met, but rather a private family law and personal injury practice in Sheffield. And have a look around, the Met is silent on this. I could be wrong but my read on this is that the Met has acknowledged receipt of a complaint from a private group of randos, but that there is no police investigation, "major" or otherwise. This looks to me like a fishing expedition by a private law firm to find something, anything, that will trash the vaccine program. They are jigging for squid and claiming there's a kraken down there but likely the most they will ever get is a side dish of calamari.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: DocJones on January 10, 2022, 09:52:42 PM
Just a "conspiracy theory" right?
(https://i.redd.it/or0zo5jms0q41.jpg)
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on January 10, 2022, 10:32:14 PM
Conspiracy theories are great, aren't they? You find one wacko with a stupid belief, and you can immediately claim that anyone you don't like must also believe in all that shit, and thereby completely discredit them!

Of course the only people who believe it when you cry wolf I mean conspiracy theory are the people who already believe everyone you don't like is a crazy cross between a terrorist and dangerous lunatic, so all it really does is reinforce your in-group hate for the out-group. Which of course is the point, because it's sooooooooooooo much easier to raise a horde of barbarians to raze civilization if all they know is rage and hate and blame it on everyone who isn't them.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on January 12, 2022, 06:02:33 AM
Oh dear, misinformation from the EU's European Medicines Agency: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-01-11/repeat-booster-shots-risk-overloading-immune-system-ema-says

Quote
Repeat booster doses every four months could eventually weaken the immune system and tire out people

If only someone had completed proper trials before rolling these out...

Meanwhile lying shitheel Albert Bourla admits the Pfizer jab doesn't work, but assures everyone the third dose is the one that does it: https://www.cnbc.com/2022/01/10/pfizer-ceo-says-two-covid-vaccine-doses-arent-enough-for-omicron.html

Quote
Bourla said omicron is a more difficult target than previous variants. Omicron, which has dozens of mutations, can evade some of the protection provided by Pfizer's original two shots.

What he means is the jabs were designed for the Alpha variant, and now at the n+2 strain they're completely irrelevant. As though another does of the same obsolete treatment would be any better than the two previous ones.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: 3catcircus on January 12, 2022, 12:03:07 PM
Oh dear, misinformation from the EU's European Medicines Agency: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-01-11/repeat-booster-shots-risk-overloading-immune-system-ema-says

Quote
Repeat booster doses every four months could eventually weaken the immune system and tire out people

If only someone had completed proper trials before rolling these out...

Meanwhile lying shitheel Albert Bourla admits the Pfizer jab doesn't work, but assures everyone the third dose is the one that does it: https://www.cnbc.com/2022/01/10/pfizer-ceo-says-two-covid-vaccine-doses-arent-enough-for-omicron.html

Quote
Bourla said omicron is a more difficult target than previous variants. Omicron, which has dozens of mutations, can evade some of the protection provided by Pfizer's original two shots.

What he means is the jabs were designed for the Alpha variant, and now at the n+2 strain they're completely irrelevant. As though another does of the same obsolete treatment would be any better than the two previous ones.

The Ethical Skeptic has done some regression analysis on the number of mutations in Omicron - far too many to have been a mutation from Delta.  Estimate is 10 years' worth of mutations based upon well-documented  natural mutation rates - implying either Omicron was engineered or that it is older than even the original SARS-COV2.

Implications are - was this engineered and released to *be* a vaccine since it appears to be as transmissible as measles but is causing very minor symptoms for most everyone who gets it? Was it a lab leak of a precursor strain (SARS-COV2 being newer, but having been leaked first)?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Zirunel on January 12, 2022, 02:05:58 PM
The Ethical Skeptic has done some regression analysis on the number of mutations in Omicron - far too many to have been a mutation from Delta. 
As I recall, as soon as Omicron was identified it was established that it is a direct descendent of the original b.1 strain. Not Delta, or Beta, or any of the other variants. So it has had a good 2 years to reach its present state.

Estimate is 10 years' worth of mutations based upon well-documented  natural mutation rates
I am sceptical that there is some universal "expected" natural mutation rate for viruses. Mutation rates for Covid are one thing researchers have been working to determine. Not, I think, settled, but possibly double previous estimated rates.

implying either Omicron was engineered or that it is older than even the original SARS-COV2.
Or, as initially hypothesized, that it developed in the selective pressure cooker of a prolonged, chronic infection in an immunocompromised individual.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on January 12, 2022, 02:59:00 PM
Estimate is 10 years' worth of mutations based upon well-documented  natural mutation rates
I am sceptical that there is some universal "expected" natural mutation rate for viruses. Mutation rates for Covid are one thing researchers have been working to determine. Not, I think, settled, but possibly double previous estimated rates.
Especially given that the mutation rate for something like a virus isn't just a factor of time, but of population. If it's been stuck in a lab where there are only a relatively small number of viruses, it's not going to be mutating very quickly. But if it's out there in the wild, the mutation rate will surge with infections. So I'm very skeptical of that estimated age.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: jhkim on January 12, 2022, 03:16:54 PM
The Ethical Skeptic has done some regression analysis on the number of mutations in Omicron - far too many to have been a mutation from Delta.  Estimate is 10 years' worth of mutations based upon well-documented  natural mutation rates - implying either Omicron was engineered or that it is older than even the original SARS-COV2.

Implications are - was this engineered and released to *be* a vaccine since it appears to be as transmissible as measles but is causing very minor symptoms for most everyone who gets it? Was it a lab leak of a precursor strain (SARS-COV2 being newer, but having been leaked first)?

Do you have a link for that? I didn't find it from search. It is widely documented that Omicron has an unusually large number of mutations. A competing theory for why is that it had additional mutation time from living in immuno-compromised hosts -- and Africa has a large number of immuno-compromised people because of the prevalence of HIV. In patients with a healthy immune system, the virus has only a limited time window to mutate before it is fought off by the immune system. In immuno-compromised people, though, the virus could live for over a year and develop many more mutations.

https://stanforddaily.com/2022/01/09/stanford-covid-19-case-suggests-possible-link-between-omicron-variant-and-hiv/

Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: 3catcircus on January 12, 2022, 03:17:51 PM
Estimate is 10 years' worth of mutations based upon well-documented  natural mutation rates
I am sceptical that there is some universal "expected" natural mutation rate for viruses. Mutation rates for Covid are one thing researchers have been working to determine. Not, I think, settled, but possibly double previous estimated rates.
Especially given that the mutation rate for something like a virus isn't just a factor of time, but of population. If it's been stuck in a lab where there are only a relatively small number of viruses, it's not going to be mutating very quickly. But if it's out there in the wild, the mutation rate will surge with infections. So I'm very skeptical of that estimated age.
Here's a good Twitter link to some of his discussion on this.

https://twitter.com/EthicalSkeptic/status/1480048230775808001

https://twitter.com/EthicalSkeptic/status/1480576072802615299

I note I had a typo - I should have said 3 years - *before* Delta.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Zirunel on January 12, 2022, 03:35:50 PM
The Ethical Skeptic has done some regression analysis on the number of mutations in Omicron - far too many to have been a mutation from Delta.  Estimate is 10 years' worth of mutations based upon well-documented  natural mutation rates - implying either Omicron was engineered or that it is older than even the original SARS-COV2.

Implications are - was this engineered and released to *be* a vaccine since it appears to be as transmissible as measles but is causing very minor symptoms for most everyone who gets it? Was it a lab leak of a precursor strain (SARS-COV2 being newer, but having been leaked first)?

Do you have a link for that? I didn't find it from search. It is widely documented that Omicron has an unusually large number of mutations. A competing theory for why is that it had additional mutation time from living in immuno-compromised hosts -- and Africa has a large number of immuno-compromised people because of the prevalence of HIV. In patients with a healthy immune system, the virus has only a limited time window to mutate before it is fought off by the immune system. In immuno-compromised people, though, the virus could live for over a year and develop many more mutations.

https://stanforddaily.com/2022/01/09/stanford-covid-19-case-suggests-possible-link-between-omicron-variant-and-hiv/

No, I couldn't find a link either, except for a couple tweets. And tweets are as informative as ... Well...tweets.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Zirunel on January 12, 2022, 03:42:00 PM
Estimate is 10 years' worth of mutations based upon well-documented  natural mutation rates
I am sceptical that there is some universal "expected" natural mutation rate for viruses. Mutation rates for Covid are one thing researchers have been working to determine. Not, I think, settled, but possibly double previous estimated rates.
Especially given that the mutation rate for something like a virus isn't just a factor of time, but of population. If it's been stuck in a lab where there are only a relatively small number of viruses, it's not going to be mutating very quickly. But if it's out there in the wild, the mutation rate will surge with infections. So I'm very skeptical of that estimated age.
Here's a good Twitter link to some of his discussion on this.

https://twitter.com/EthicalSkeptic/status/1480048230775808001

https://twitter.com/EthicalSkeptic/status/1480576072802615299

I note I had a typo - I should have said 3 years - *before* Delta.

Hi, cross-posting I guess, sorry. But I've seen those tweets. Anything more substantive than tweets?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: 3catcircus on January 12, 2022, 03:54:02 PM
Estimate is 10 years' worth of mutations based upon well-documented  natural mutation rates
I am sceptical that there is some universal "expected" natural mutation rate for viruses. Mutation rates for Covid are one thing researchers have been working to determine. Not, I think, settled, but possibly double previous estimated rates.
Especially given that the mutation rate for something like a virus isn't just a factor of time, but of population. If it's been stuck in a lab where there are only a relatively small number of viruses, it's not going to be mutating very quickly. But if it's out there in the wild, the mutation rate will surge with infections. So I'm very skeptical of that estimated age.
Here's a good Twitter link to some of his discussion on this.

https://twitter.com/EthicalSkeptic/status/1480048230775808001

https://twitter.com/EthicalSkeptic/status/1480576072802615299

I note I had a typo - I should have said 3 years - *before* Delta.

Hi, cross-posting I guess, sorry. But I've seen those tweets. Anything more substantive than tweets?

I'd recommend cracking open a cold one or pouring two fingers and just browse his feed.  The veracity becomes evident quickly.  No selling a narrative, just presenting factual statistics and asking questions.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Zirunel on January 12, 2022, 04:07:47 PM
Estimate is 10 years' worth of mutations based upon well-documented  natural mutation rates
I am sceptical that there is some universal "expected" natural mutation rate for viruses. Mutation rates for Covid are one thing researchers have been working to determine. Not, I think, settled, but possibly double previous estimated rates.
Especially given that the mutation rate for something like a virus isn't just a factor of time, but of population. If it's been stuck in a lab where there are only a relatively small number of viruses, it's not going to be mutating very quickly. But if it's out there in the wild, the mutation rate will surge with infections. So I'm very skeptical of that estimated age.
Here's a good Twitter link to some of his discussion on this.

https://twitter.com/EthicalSkeptic/status/1480048230775808001

https://twitter.com/EthicalSkeptic/status/1480576072802615299

I note I had a typo - I should have said 3 years - *before* Delta.

Hi, cross-posting I guess, sorry. But I've seen those tweets. Anything more substantive than tweets?

I'd recommend cracking open a cold one or pouring two fingers and just browse his feed.  The veracity becomes evident quickly.  No selling a narrative, just presenting factual statistics and asking questions.

Ok thanks. I'm down for cracking open a cold one or pouring two fingers, but to read someone's Twitter feed? That requires pouring more fingers than I possess. I'll wait for the beef, thanks.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on January 12, 2022, 04:09:04 PM
This was an interesting talk, from the lunch break of a conference, a panel of doctors talking about the contents of the jabs. Or more specifically, the few things they do know are in it which alarm them: https://rumble.com/vqyxyl-so-docs...whats-really-in-the-damn-vaccines.html?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on January 12, 2022, 04:42:52 PM
The Ethical Skeptic has done some regression analysis on the number of mutations in Omicron - far too many to have been a mutation from Delta.  Estimate is 10 years' worth of mutations based upon well-documented  natural mutation rates - implying either Omicron was engineered or that it is older than even the original SARS-COV2.

Implications are - was this engineered and released to *be* a vaccine since it appears to be as transmissible as measles but is causing very minor symptoms for most everyone who gets it? Was it a lab leak of a precursor strain (SARS-COV2 being newer, but having been leaked first)?

Do you have a link for that? I didn't find it from search. It is widely documented that Omicron has an unusually large number of mutations. A competing theory for why is that it had additional mutation time from living in immuno-compromised hosts -- and Africa has a large number of immuno-compromised people because of the prevalence of HIV. In patients with a healthy immune system, the virus has only a limited time window to mutate before it is fought off by the immune system. In immuno-compromised people, though, the virus could live for over a year and develop many more mutations.

https://stanforddaily.com/2022/01/09/stanford-covid-19-case-suggests-possible-link-between-omicron-variant-and-hiv/
There's also the possibility it might be another lab leak, this time from Durban in South Africa. The timing fits (the lab had plasma from early covid-19 patients, i.e. roughly when Omicron split from the other variants), so does the nature of the lab (the lab has been involved in immune escape, and also works in HIV), and obviously that's the country where Omicron was first detected. But it's still highly speculative.

https://twitter.com/ydeigin/status/1467006051358810112
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Zirunel on January 12, 2022, 05:48:17 PM
This was an interesting talk, from the lunch break of a conference, a panel of doctors talking about the contents of the jabs. Or more specifically, the few things they do know are in it which alarm them: https://rumble.com/vqyxyl-so-docs...whats-really-in-the-damn-vaccines.html?

Cool. The purpose of this link seems to be to get you to enroll in the HOW TO CHANGE 10-Day Course and "discover the key to lasting transformation in our life. "

$297 for the ten day course, but 30% off when you use the coupon code. Um, great thanks.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Zirunel on January 12, 2022, 06:01:12 PM
The Ethical Skeptic has done some regression analysis on the number of mutations in Omicron - far too many to have been a mutation from Delta.  Estimate is 10 years' worth of mutations based upon well-documented  natural mutation rates - implying either Omicron was engineered or that it is older than even the original SARS-COV2.

Implications are - was this engineered and released to *be* a vaccine since it appears to be as transmissible as measles but is causing very minor symptoms for most everyone who gets it? Was it a lab leak of a precursor strain (SARS-COV2 being newer, but having been leaked first)?

Do you have a link for that? I didn't find it from search. It is widely documented that Omicron has an unusually large number of mutations. A competing theory for why is that it had additional mutation time from living in immuno-compromised hosts -- and Africa has a large number of immuno-compromised people because of the prevalence of HIV. In patients with a healthy immune system, the virus has only a limited time window to mutate before it is fought off by the immune system. In immuno-compromised people, though, the virus could live for over a year and develop many more mutations.

https://stanforddaily.com/2022/01/09/stanford-covid-19-case-suggests-possible-link-between-omicron-variant-and-hiv/
There's also the possibility it might be another lab leak, this time from Durban in South Africa. The timing fits (the lab had plasma from early covid-19 patients, i.e. roughly when Omicron split from the other variants), so does the nature of the lab (the lab has been involved in immune escape, and also works in HIV), and obviously that's the country where Omicron was first detected. But it's still highly speculative.

https://twitter.com/ydeigin/status/1467006051358810112

I think it's true the origins of Omicron are still elusive, so maybe. All things are possible. My own suspicion is that it originated in West Africa, possibly Nigeria, before it was discovered in South Africa, but again highly speculative, I can't support that. And now it looks like it's been retroactively identified in wastewater samples from Nova Scotia a month before it was first detected in South Africa. Did it originate there? It seems unlikely, for several reasons, but not impossible. who knows at at this point
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on January 12, 2022, 06:48:06 PM
I think it's true the origins of Omicron are still elusive, so maybe. All things are possible. My own suspicion is that it originated in West Africa, possibly Nigeria, before it was discovered in South Africa, but again highly speculative, I can't support that. And now it looks like it's been retroactively identified in wastewater samples from Nova Scotia a month before it was first detected in South Africa. Did it originate there? It seems unlikely, for several reasons, but not impossible. who knows at at this point
I think it's safe to say we're still in the data collecting phase when it comes to the origin of Omicron.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: 3catcircus on January 12, 2022, 08:59:26 PM
I think it's true the origins of Omicron are still elusive, so maybe. All things are possible. My own suspicion is that it originated in West Africa, possibly Nigeria, before it was discovered in South Africa, but again highly speculative, I can't support that. And now it looks like it's been retroactively identified in wastewater samples from Nova Scotia a month before it was first detected in South Africa. Did it originate there? It seems unlikely, for several reasons, but not impossible. who knows at at this point
I think it's safe to say we're still in the data collecting phase when it comes to the origin of Omicron.

Considering that there are frozen blood samples containing the original strain from well before the initial pandemic, it begs the question.  If it turns out that it really was a lab leak from research funded by Fauci by way of Dasczak, or some type of chimeric based upon Baric's work, then they all need to be arrested and have a fair trial followed by a fair execution.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: DocJones on January 13, 2022, 09:45:51 PM
This was an interesting talk, from the lunch break of a conference, a panel of doctors talking about the contents of the jabs. Or more specifically, the few things they do know are in it which alarm them: https://rumble.com/vqyxyl-so-docs...whats-really-in-the-damn-vaccines.html?

Quote
Many people are curious to know what the ingredients are for the three currently available COVID-19 vaccines in the US.
Here is a breakdown of the three COVID vaccines and their ingredients:

    Pfizer Vaccine: The full list of ingredients for the Pfizer vaccine is:
    mRNA, lipids ((4-hydroxybutyl)azanediyl)bis(hexane-6,1-diyl)bis(2-hexyldecanoate), 2
    [(polyethylene glycol)-2000]-N,N-ditetradecylacetamide, 1,2-Distearoyl-sn-glycero-3-
    phosphocholine, and cholesterol), potassium chloride, monobasic potassium
    phosphate, sodium chloride, dibasic sodium phosphate dihydrate, and sucrose.
    The Pfizer vaccine does not contain eggs, preservatives, or latex.

     Moderna Vaccine: The full list of ingredients for the Moderna vaccine is:
    Messenger ribonucleic acid (mRNA), lipids (SM-102, polyethylene glycol [PEG] 2000
    dimyristoyl glycerol [DMG], cholesterol, and 1,2-distearoyl-sn-glycero-3-phosphocholine [DSPC]),
    tromethamine,tromethamine hydrochloride, acetic acid, sodium acetate trihydrate, and sucrose.
    The Moderna vaccine does not contain eggs, preservatives, or latex.

    Johnson & Johnson Vaccine: The full list of ingredients for the Johnson & Johnson vaccine is:
    Recombinant, replication-incompetent adenovirus type 26 expressing the SARS-CoV-2 spike protein,
    citric acid monohydrate, trisodium citrate dihydrate, ethanol, 2 hydroxypropyl-β-cyclodextrin (HBCD),
    polysorbate-80, sodium chloride.
    The Johnson & Johnson vaccine does not contain eggs, preservatives, or latex.


For some reason these so-called "doctors" don't know the ingredients of the vaccines.
Yet apparently I was able to find it.
I don't see graphene oxide or graphene hydroxide nor do I see self-assemblying nanobots.
Of course like all good non-falsifiable conspiracy theories, "THEY" are not going to tell you the truth about the secret sauce that is set to kill you or take control of your mind with nano bots.
Nevermind the thousands of people who would have to remain silent at these three companies in order to hide these secret ingredients.
 






Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on January 14, 2022, 08:23:26 AM
For some reason these so-called "doctors" don't know the ingredients of the vaccines.
Yet apparently I was able to find it.
I don't see graphene oxide or graphene hydroxide nor do I see self-assemblying nanobots.
Of course like all good non-falsifiable conspiracy theories, "THEY" are not going to tell you the truth about the secret sauce that is set to kill you or take control of your mind with nano bots.
Nevermind the thousands of people who would have to remain silent at these three companies in order to hide these secret ingredients.

You trust known fraudsters, good luck with that! As for people not speaking out, they tend not to do that until it affects them. Which is why, with "no jab, no job" looming in April for all healthcare workers in this country, we now have a lot of them speaking out.

Those of you who've been genetically modified (unless you had AZ) can now check whether you were one of those unfortunates who got a bad batch: https://howbadismybatch.com/

Something like 90% of the worst adverse effects can be traced to 10% of the batches administered.

Meanwhile in Scotland, does it show that it's working that the majority being admitted are double-jabbed: https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/19843315.covid-scotland-case-rates-lowest-unvaccinated-double-jabbed-elderly-drive-rise-hospital-admissions/
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: 3catcircus on January 14, 2022, 11:26:09 AM
This was an interesting talk, from the lunch break of a conference, a panel of doctors talking about the contents of the jabs. Or more specifically, the few things they do know are in it which alarm them: https://rumble.com/vqyxyl-so-docs...whats-really-in-the-damn-vaccines.html?

Quote
Many people are curious to know what the ingredients are for the three currently available COVID-19 vaccines in the US.
Here is a breakdown of the three COVID vaccines and their ingredients:

    Pfizer Vaccine: The full list of ingredients for the Pfizer vaccine is:
    mRNA, lipids ((4-hydroxybutyl)azanediyl)bis(hexane-6,1-diyl)bis(2-hexyldecanoate), 2
    [(polyethylene glycol)-2000]-N,N-ditetradecylacetamide, 1,2-Distearoyl-sn-glycero-3-
    phosphocholine, and cholesterol), potassium chloride, monobasic potassium
    phosphate, sodium chloride, dibasic sodium phosphate dihydrate, and sucrose.
    The Pfizer vaccine does not contain eggs, preservatives, or latex.

     Moderna Vaccine: The full list of ingredients for the Moderna vaccine is:
    Messenger ribonucleic acid (mRNA), lipids (SM-102, polyethylene glycol [PEG] 2000
    dimyristoyl glycerol [DMG], cholesterol, and 1,2-distearoyl-sn-glycero-3-phosphocholine [DSPC]),
    tromethamine,tromethamine hydrochloride, acetic acid, sodium acetate trihydrate, and sucrose.
    The Moderna vaccine does not contain eggs, preservatives, or latex.

    Johnson & Johnson Vaccine: The full list of ingredients for the Johnson & Johnson vaccine is:
    Recombinant, replication-incompetent adenovirus type 26 expressing the SARS-CoV-2 spike protein,
    citric acid monohydrate, trisodium citrate dihydrate, ethanol, 2 hydroxypropyl-β-cyclodextrin (HBCD),
    polysorbate-80, sodium chloride.
    The Johnson & Johnson vaccine does not contain eggs, preservatives, or latex.


For some reason these so-called "doctors" don't know the ingredients of the vaccines.
Yet apparently I was able to find it.
I don't see graphene oxide or graphene hydroxide nor do I see self-assemblying nanobots.
Of course like all good non-falsifiable conspiracy theories, "THEY" are not going to tell you the truth about the secret sauce that is set to kill you or take control of your mind with nano bots.
Nevermind the thousands of people who would have to remain silent at these three companies in order to hide these secret ingredients.

It would probably be helpful for the non-sciencey types if they were to explain what a lipid is. And whether or not these are engineered lipids or Crisco...  *That's* why people are talking about nanonbots - these lipids are synthetic nanoparticles that encapsulate the mRNA until it gets inside the body - where the difference in pH results in the mRNA being released.  In essence, it's a weight loss ad: "When it enters your body, the fat just melts right off!  But wait, there's more!!"

Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on January 14, 2022, 11:53:57 AM
Does it show the jabs are working that the majority of people reporting positive results are jabbed?

(https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/d3cf32c0c0d8f7f7f770e662512f2948ca06849485f94a3c8a8e77a56ae5a67d.jpg?w=600&h=563)

Makes me laugh, I've had covid once a year the past few years, yet the jabbed seem to get it repeatedly.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: DocJones on January 14, 2022, 09:05:04 PM
It would probably be helpful for the non-sciencey types if they were to explain what a lipid is. And whether or not these are engineered lipids or Crisco...  *That's* why people are talking about nanonbots - these lipids are synthetic nanoparticles that encapsulate the mRNA until it gets inside the body - where the difference in pH results in the mRNA being released.  In essence, it's a weight loss ad: "When it enters your body, the fat just melts right off!  But wait, there's more!!"

Lipids are organic compunds insoluble in water.  Fats and oils in the broadest sense.
You can find a wealth of information searching on the web for every one of those ingredients listed as lipids.
None of them are toxic and are used in thousands of other injectable medicines.

Anyone who insists that these vaccines contain highly toxic graphene oxide or graphene hydroxide is an idiot.
Here read this:  American Scientists Confirm Toxic Graphene Oxide, and More, in Covid Injections (https://rightsfreedoms.wordpress.com/2021/09/02/american-scientists-confirm-toxic-graphene-oxide-and-more-in-covid-injections/)
Now read about who did this "study". A Critical Look at “Dr.” Robert Young’s Theories and Credentials (https://quackwatch.org/11Ind/young3/)
Scientist or Grifter?   The answer should be obvious unless one is delusional.


Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: DocJones on January 14, 2022, 09:58:46 PM
For some reason these so-called "doctors" don't know the ingredients of the vaccines.
Yet apparently I was able to find it.
I don't see graphene oxide or graphene hydroxide nor do I see self-assemblying nanobots.
Of course like all good non-falsifiable conspiracy theories, "THEY" are not going to tell you the truth about the secret sauce that is set to kill you or take control of your mind with nano bots.
Nevermind the thousands of people who would have to remain silent at these three companies in order to hide these secret ingredients.

You trust known fraudsters, good luck with that! As for people not speaking out, they tend not to do that until it affects them. Which is why, with "no jab, no job" looming in April for all healthcare workers in this country, we now have a lot of them speaking out.

Oh sure.... there are thousands of people involved in three different companies manufacturing three different vaccines that according to conspiracy nutcases all contain graphene compounds known to be highly toxic and of course "nanobots" that kill people.    Yeah..sure.
Interestingly enough you're the one who trusts known fraudsters.  I found it's fascinating how many of these so-called doctors are "homeopaths" "naturopaths" selling patent medicine and herbal cures for everything from cancer to covid.  Many of them who have been fined and/or had their licenses revoked long before Covid existed.  You've already shown you don't bother to check your sources be they quacks or antisemites.

And still instead of addressing what I responding too, you post some other totally unrelated analysis of "bad batches" by some guy, Craig Taardepooper.
A totally time wasting exercise in that Mr, TaardePooper has zero information on batch sizes which is pretty damn crucial in determining whether a batch was bad or not.   
 
Meanwhile in Scotland, does it show that it's working that the majority being admitted are double-jabbed: https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/19843315.covid-scotland-case-rates-lowest-unvaccinated-double-jabbed-elderly-drive-rise-hospital-admissions/

I was way ahead of you.  I posted that the vaccines would NOT work, masks would NOT work and everyone WOULD GET  the KUNG FLU  on this site back in early 2020.   This is neither an anti-vax position nor is it one that entertains the kind of conspiratorial garbage that you've been  posting.
I'm not vaccinated.  I'm part of the control group.


Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: KingCheops on January 15, 2022, 03:45:46 PM
I was way ahead of you.  I posted that the vaccines would NOT work, masks would NOT work and everyone WOULD GET  the KUNG FLU  on this site back in early 2020.   This is neither an anti-vax position nor is it one that entertains the kind of conspiratorial garbage that you've been  posting.
I'm not vaccinated.  I'm part of the control group.

In fact the health authorities here in Canada were saying we'd all get Covid but it was just "2 weeks to slow the spread to ease the burden on our health system."  So not at all a conpisracy theory or even an outlier position.

It's all the other garbage they've done with the excuse of "the science is fluid."  Our latest from the state propaganda machine is "conspiracy theorists are using our own evidence against us but we've since "discovered" the science is "evolving" so stop listening to them."
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on January 18, 2022, 04:49:31 PM
Observing the higher cases in the jabbed here in the UK and proposing some reasons why that might be the case: https://boriquagato.substack.com/p/vaccines-and-boosters-associated

As I have been saying all along, the jabs fuck up your immune system. Less noticeable in young people who are otherwise healthy, with other means to defend themselves, potentially deadly in old people who's myriad defences no longer function.

Luckily Omicron is even more pathetic than Delta was, but it's bypassing the jabs.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Shasarak on January 18, 2022, 06:58:39 PM
Observing the higher cases in the jabbed here in the UK and proposing some reasons why that might be the case:

I suspect it is because your government is not having enough secret parties.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Reckall on January 20, 2022, 09:49:59 PM
Amid all of this, Reddit, of course, is having fun with all those no-vaxxers/pandemic deniers who end up biting the BIG BULLET. I'll not link the subdirectory but this description from Slate is gallows humor at its finest:

"...As the forum has grown, entries have started following a fairly standard format: The first few screenshots typically feature the individual in question deploying a remarkably consistent set (there are 30 or so) of memes. Some vilify Dr. Anthony Fauci or champion the right to be unvaccinated. Others warn people they’re experimental rats or offer scripts that will properly punish wait staff for daring to inquire about vaccination status. Some deride masked liberals as “sheep” and the unvaccinated as proud free lions or refer to immigrants as vectors of disease or compare vaccination requirements to the Holocaust. Most of them treat the pandemic as a joke and frame ignoring it as brave or clever or both. The final few screenshots typically announce the disease, its progress, and the eventual death announcement, frequently followed by a GoFundMe for the family. If someone is merely hospitalized, the flair on that entry reads “Nominated.” When they die, it changes to “Awarded.”
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ratman_tf on January 20, 2022, 11:39:00 PM
Amid all of this, Reddit, of course, is having fun with all those no-vaxxers/pandemic deniers who end up biting the BIG BULLET. I'll not link the subdirectory but this description from Slate is gallows humor at its finest:

"...As the forum has grown, entries have started following a fairly standard format: The first few screenshots typically feature the individual in question deploying a remarkably consistent set (there are 30 or so) of memes. Some vilify Dr. Anthony Fauci or champion the right to be unvaccinated. Others warn people they’re experimental rats or offer scripts that will properly punish wait staff for daring to inquire about vaccination status. Some deride masked liberals as “sheep” and the unvaccinated as proud free lions or refer to immigrants as vectors of disease or compare vaccination requirements to the Holocaust. Most of them treat the pandemic as a joke and frame ignoring it as brave or clever or both. The final few screenshots typically announce the disease, its progress, and the eventual death announcement, frequently followed by a GoFundMe for the family. If someone is merely hospitalized, the flair on that entry reads “Nominated.” When they die, it changes to “Awarded.”

The shadow in me is rooting for Covid and vaccination complications to wipe out the human race.

I try not to listen to it, but it gets stronger every time I read something like that.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on January 21, 2022, 04:46:21 AM
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-60047438

The UK is dropping mask and covid passport mandates.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on January 21, 2022, 05:07:45 AM
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-60047438

The UK is dropping mask and covid passport mandates.

For now. The "emergency powers" are up for renewal in March, they will be renewed.

They also haven't dropped the vaxx mandate for healthcare workers - anyone who hasn't had their first dose by 3rd February is going to be sacked. There are 80-100,000 NHS staff (focused mostly in the 550,000 who actually do something useful) who are unjabbed.

Vaxx passports will also be a condition of entry into the country. None of this is going away, it's a temporary reprieve, not an outright retreat.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on January 21, 2022, 05:10:33 AM
Amid all of this, Reddit, of course, is having fun with all those no-vaxxers/pandemic deniers who end up biting the BIG BULLET. I'll not link the subdirectory but this description from Slate is gallows humor at its finest:

"...As the forum has grown, entries have started following a fairly standard format: The first few screenshots typically feature the individual in question deploying a remarkably consistent set (there are 30 or so) of memes. Some vilify Dr. Anthony Fauci or champion the right to be unvaccinated. Others warn people they’re experimental rats or offer scripts that will properly punish wait staff for daring to inquire about vaccination status. Some deride masked liberals as “sheep” and the unvaccinated as proud free lions or refer to immigrants as vectors of disease or compare vaccination requirements to the Holocaust. Most of them treat the pandemic as a joke and frame ignoring it as brave or clever or both. The final few screenshots typically announce the disease, its progress, and the eventual death announcement, frequently followed by a GoFundMe for the family. If someone is merely hospitalized, the flair on that entry reads “Nominated.” When they die, it changes to “Awarded.”

So deadly, I've had it three years in a row (only once a year) and it's been milder and shorter each time. No jab, never worn a mask, never been tested, ignore anti-social distancing.

The real death statistics, of those who were actually killed by covid were released in the UK. The 150,000 "with" is utter bollocks, since it's 17,000 "of". And less than 4,000 of those were under 65 - and most of those were over 50.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Reckall on January 21, 2022, 05:16:20 PM
Amid all of this, Reddit, of course, is having fun with all those no-vaxxers/pandemic deniers who end up biting the BIG BULLET. I'll not link the subdirectory but this description from Slate is gallows humor at its finest:

"...As the forum has grown, entries have started following a fairly standard format: The first few screenshots typically feature the individual in question deploying a remarkably consistent set (there are 30 or so) of memes. Some vilify Dr. Anthony Fauci or champion the right to be unvaccinated. Others warn people they’re experimental rats or offer scripts that will properly punish wait staff for daring to inquire about vaccination status. Some deride masked liberals as “sheep” and the unvaccinated as proud free lions or refer to immigrants as vectors of disease or compare vaccination requirements to the Holocaust. Most of them treat the pandemic as a joke and frame ignoring it as brave or clever or both. The final few screenshots typically announce the disease, its progress, and the eventual death announcement, frequently followed by a GoFundMe for the family. If someone is merely hospitalized, the flair on that entry reads “Nominated.” When they die, it changes to “Awarded.”

So deadly, I've had it three years in a row (only once a year) and it's been milder and shorter each time.

You had "three years in a row" something that is around from only two?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on January 21, 2022, 05:24:24 PM
You had "three years in a row" something that is around from only two?

The Alpha variant was in circulation in late 2019. Or didn't you know that?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: jhkim on January 21, 2022, 05:48:55 PM
So deadly, I've had it three years in a row (only once a year) and it's been milder and shorter each time.

You had "three years in a row" something that is around from only two?

The Alpha variant was in circulation in late 2019. Or didn't you know that?

I would have thought that Kiero meant he had it once each in calendar years 2020, 2021, and now in 2022. Is that right, Kiero? Unless you're claiming that you had it in 2019, though, I don't think that's relevant. It's been around 26 months or so, which is closer to two years than three - but by calendar years it's possible.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on January 21, 2022, 05:49:46 PM
You had "three years in a row" something that is around from only two?

The Alpha variant was in circulation in late 2019. Or didn't you know that?
Keiro is an early adopter, getting Covid before it was cool. If you believe him, which I do not.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: TNMalt on January 21, 2022, 06:16:07 PM
Being a breakthrough case and how it kicked me around, I am glad I did get my jab and booster. I am 100% certain that I did not want to be unvaxxed through that.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on January 21, 2022, 06:41:29 PM
I would have thought that Kiero meant he had it once each in calendar years 2020, 2021, and now in 2022. Is that right, Kiero? Unless you're claiming that you had it in 2019, though, I don't think that's relevant. It's been around 26 months or so, which is closer to two years than three - but by calendar years it's possible.

I've had it in December 2019, January 2021, January 2022. It was leaked from the Wuhan lab at some point in 2019 and the Chinese authorities tried to cover it up. It was in Italy in October 2019 and the UK a few weeks after that.

The first bout made me ill for two weeks, the longest a respiratory infection has bothered me for a while. A hypochondriac of my acquaintance was ill for two months, much of it bedridden around the same time.

Being a breakthrough case and how it kicked me around, I am glad I did get my jab and booster. I am 100% certain that I did not want to be unvaxxed through that.

I've been unjabbed throughout and I've been fine. I'm 100% certain that I didn't want to risk immunological or cardiovascular adverse events for the sniffles.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: TNMalt on January 21, 2022, 06:47:21 PM
Only side affects I experienced from both the vaccine and booster was similar to the flu shot
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on January 21, 2022, 07:31:35 PM
Only side affects I experienced from both the vaccine and booster was similar to the flu shot

That you know of right now. It's been what, a few months?

mRNA jabs are nothing like the flu jab.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Reckall on January 21, 2022, 07:45:02 PM
I would have thought that Kiero meant he had it once each in calendar years 2020, 2021, and now in 2022. Is that right, Kiero? Unless you're claiming that you had it in 2019, though, I don't think that's relevant. It's been around 26 months or so, which is closer to two years than three - but by calendar years it's possible.

I've had it in December 2019, January 2021, January 2022.

People, Kiero just admitted that he had Covid while posting on this very thread (which may explain some of his erratic "thinking"). Don't panic, scan your computers for viruses, don't use them for seven days and warn posters on other forums you frequent!
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: DocJones on January 21, 2022, 08:04:14 PM
Only side affects I experienced from both the vaccine and booster was similar to the flu shot

That you know of right now. It's been what, a few months?

mRNA jabs are nothing like the flu jab.
Once those nanobots finish assembling that 5G interface he'll be sorry.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: TNMalt on January 21, 2022, 08:28:42 PM
I'm still pissed I hadn't gotten my mutant powers yet.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: TNMalt on January 21, 2022, 08:32:44 PM
And I want my nanobot built 5G network. Will save me on upgrading my smartphone.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Eirikrautha on January 22, 2022, 08:50:35 AM
Being a breakthrough case and how it kicked me around, I am glad I did get my jab and booster. I am 100% certain that I did not want to be unvaxxed through that.

Yep.  It's the same reason I bought my Tiger Repelllent Necklace.  I haven't seen a Tiger in my neighborhood once!

Or, maybe, no one has any idea how you would have reacted without a jab, since the efficacy of the vaccine is based on statistical data and not a comparison to multiple infections (in the same person, one time with and one time without)?  The level of faith involved here is staggering...
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Reckall on January 22, 2022, 10:57:27 AM
Being a breakthrough case and how it kicked me around, I am glad I did get my jab and booster. I am 100% certain that I did not want to be unvaxxed through that.

Yep.  It's the same reason I bought my Tiger Repelllent Necklace.  I haven't seen a Tiger in my neighborhood once!

Or, maybe, no one has any idea how you would have reacted without a jab, since the efficacy of the vaccine is based on statistical data and not a comparison to multiple infections (in the same person, one time with and one time without)?  The level of faith involved here is staggering...

You know where another level of faith is staggering? Among no-vaxxers who, once they find themselves (or a relative) with a ventilator up in the ass, immediately ask for prayers. Usually these appeals go to "Prayer Warriors" (which would be a great Prestige Class for D&D, admittedly). People who derided the idea that vaccines could have been developed in one year are now the first in line to ask God for "a miracle". These stories almost inevitably end up with the Covided person "being now one with God", or Jesus, or the angels (thus bringing Covid up there to more unvaxxed, I guess, since no no-vaxxer would have faith in pro-vaxxers).

Yup, faith is a bitch.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: dkabq on January 22, 2022, 11:24:00 AM
Being a breakthrough case and how it kicked me around, I am glad I did get my jab and booster. I am 100% certain that I did not want to be unvaxxed through that.

Yep.  It's the same reason I bought my Tiger Repelllent Necklace.  I haven't seen a Tiger in my neighborhood once!

Or, maybe, no one has any idea how you would have reacted without a jab, since the efficacy of the vaccine is based on statistical data and not a comparison to multiple infections (in the same person, one time with and one time without)?  The level of faith involved here is staggering...

You know where another level of faith is staggering? Among no-vaxxers who, once they find themselves (or a relative) with a ventilator up in the ass, immediately ask for prayers. Usually these appeals go to "Prayer Warriors" (which would be a great Prestige Class for D&D, admittedly). People who derided the idea that vaccines could have been developed in one year are now the first in line to ask God for "a miracle". These stories almost inevitably end up with the Covided person "being now one with God", or Jesus, or the angels (thus bringing Covid up there to more unvaxxed, I guess, since no no-vaxxer would have faith in pro-vaxxers).

Yup, faith is a bitch.

I imagine the same is true for people of faith that got vaccinated.

As for the people that derided the idea that vaccines could be developed in a year, many of those are the same people that said they would not take "Trump's vaccine" and yet are now pushing vaccine mandates.

And to go back to your initial point of "faith", what about faith in masks other than N-95s? It's like a fucking cargo cult. Or the faith in the vaccine with respect to masks ("Vax or Mask"), herd immunity (anyone know what percentage St. Fauci is now touting), or preventing transmission (Gibraltar at 100+% vaccinated illustrated that falsehood).

What's left is that the vaccine reduces symptoms such that hospitalizations and deaths are reduced, assuming you get boosted every six months.

So make your decision and let others make theirs. Just like we allow people to make the choice to become obese, not treat their diabetes or hypertension, not exercise, be a drug addict, etc., if someone does not want to take the vaccine and subsequently dies from covid, I would no more mock them than I would someone who dies from complications due to their untreated diabetes. Btw, that litany of woes is pretty much the nominal patient at the rehab hospital my wife works at.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Reckall on January 22, 2022, 12:19:32 PM
So make your decision and let others make theirs. Just like we allow people to make the choice to become obese, not treat their diabetes or hypertension, not exercise, be a drug addict, etc.

First time I hear that these are transmissible diseases but - hey! - this is the internet...
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: dkabq on January 22, 2022, 01:21:09 PM
So make your decision and let others make theirs. Just like we allow people to make the choice to become obese, not treat their diabetes or hypertension, not exercise, be a drug addict, etc.

First time I hear that these are transmissible diseases but - hey! - this is the internet...

Nope; they are not. And if the vaccines prevented catching covid or transmitting covid, you'd have a point. But as they don't, someone else being vaccinated has no impact on whether you are going to catch covid from them. Hence, someone not getting vaccinated and catching covid (and dying) impacts you no differently than someone who got vaccinated and caught covid (and died) or someone who leaves their diabetes untreated (and died).
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: TNMalt on January 22, 2022, 03:44:32 PM
Depends. That person that didn't get vaxxed takes up an ICU bed that another patient could use. And I still don't get the resistance to the covid vaccines. Most of the people not getting it dod get the mmr and polio for example.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Reckall on January 22, 2022, 04:34:34 PM
Depends. That person that didn't get vaxxed takes up an ICU bed that another patient could use.

And a specialist or maybe a whole ward that should be devoted to something else (like Gynaecology or Oncology). Nothing beats to see some specialist for your non-Covid problem at 9PM with them deadly tired.

What I wonder, however, is how people would react if diabetes or not keeping in shape were transmissible conditions. You watch what you eat, you go to the gym, you strive to keep a healthy lifestyle - only for some idiot who doesn't and plays online all day long to go around spreading diabetes. You wake up one morning needing insulin for the rest of your life and 100 lbs. overweight thanks to that idiot. But all is fine because "his body his choice", right?

Personally, no, I don't think that the other dude would survive the mob. But diabetes and unhealthy lifestyles aren't transmissible, as Covid is, so we will never know...
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on January 22, 2022, 04:45:17 PM
Depends. That person that didn't get vaxxed takes up an ICU bed that another patient could use.

And a specialist or maybe a whole ward that should be devoted to something else (like Gynaecology or Oncology). Nothing beats to see some specialist for your non-Covid problem at 9PM with them deadly tired.

What I wonder, however, is how people would react if diabetes or not keeping in shape were transmissible conditions. You watch what you eat, you go to the gym, you strive to keep a healthy lifestyle - only for some idiot who doesn't and plays online all day long to go around spreading diabetes. You wake up one morning needing insulin for the rest of your life and 100 lbs. overweight thanks to that idiot. But all is fine because "his body his choice", right?

Personally, no, I don't think that the other dude would survive the mob. But diabetes and unhealthy lifestyles aren't transmissible, as Covid is, so we will never know...
That's just a lovely attempt to rationalize totalitarianism. I know what side you'd be on in the 1930s.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: dkabq on January 22, 2022, 04:51:21 PM
Depends. That person that didn't get vaxxed takes up an ICU bed that another patient could use. And I still don't get the resistance to the covid vaccines. Most of the people not getting it dod get the mmr and polio for example.

And a person that doesn't control their diabetes can take up an ICU bed that another patient could use. They certainly take bed space at the rehab hospital my wife works at.

Because I don't like to be told what to do. And I want to make my own risk decisions. If I was 10+ years older than I am now and had a plethora of co-morbidities, I would be getting jabbed seven ways to Sunday. If I was 17 years old with no co-morbidities I would absolutely not take a vaccine that has no long term testing, for a virus that is less likely to kill me my chance of dying in a car accident.

That said, I respect your right to make the decision that you believe is best for you.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on January 22, 2022, 04:59:17 PM
Depends. That person that didn't get vaxxed takes up an ICU bed that another patient could use. And I still don't get the resistance to the covid vaccines. Most of the people not getting it dod get the mmr and polio for example.

And a person that doesn't control the diabetes can take up an ICU bed that another patient could use. The certainly take bed space at the rehab hospital my wife works at.
And they're using up other healthcare resources, by needing more and more expensive care for gangrene, amputations, insulin jabs, and so on. And those are resources we could be using to fix poverty, cure cancer, give healthcare to everyone, prevent children from watching too many violent videos games, suppressing nuclear power in favor of throwing lots of money at wind and solar, and all those wonderful things that the public wants and the government would be sure to give them, if only they had more money. So we must vigorously enforce rules to prevent those diabeetus fatties from being fat and having diabetes, even if we have to imprison them for their unhealthy lifestyles, because they're actively and intentionally hurting all the other people we could be helping!
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on January 22, 2022, 04:59:45 PM
Depends. That person that didn't get vaxxed takes up an ICU bed that another patient could use. And I still don't get the resistance to the covid vaccines. Most of the people not getting it dod get the mmr and polio for example.

And a person that doesn't control the diabetes can take up an ICU bed that another patient could use. The certainly take bed space at the rehab hospital my wife works at.
Ooh! Can we do another parallel here? Are they in the ICU for diabetes or with diabetes? Is it the bloodsugar levels killing them or the concurrent electrolyte imbalances (or delayed wound healing or...)? How many comorbidities do most diabetic patients have (and yes, a great many of them are chronic,  lifestyle disorders).
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: dkabq on January 22, 2022, 05:05:50 PM
Depends. That person that didn't get vaxxed takes up an ICU bed that another patient could use. And I still don't get the resistance to the covid vaccines. Most of the people not getting it dod get the mmr and polio for example.

And a person that doesn't control the diabetes can take up an ICU bed that another patient could use. The certainly take bed space at the rehab hospital my wife works at.
Ooh! Can we do another parallel here? Are they in the ICU for diabetes or with diabetes? Is the bloodsugar levels killing them or the concurrent electrolyte imbalances (or delayed wound healing or...)? How many comorbidities to most diabetic patients have (and yes, a great many of them are chronic,  lifestyle disorders).

That's actually an interesting question. I imagine that the answer is a little of column A and a little of column B, depending on the mechanistic correlation between the proximate cause of death and any co-morbidities.

For example, I die as a passenger in a car accident and test positive for covid postmortem, I would count that as a non-covid death, just like if I had diabetes and die as a passenger in a car accident, I would count that as a non-diabetes death. Or let's say that I die of a heart attack and showed no covid symptoms but tested positive for covid postmortem, I could count that as a non-covid death. Conversely, if I was having severe covid symptoms, had a heart condition, and had a heart attack, I could see including covid as a contributor to my death along with the underlying heart condition.






Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Eirikrautha on January 22, 2022, 05:08:49 PM
Depends. That person that didn't get vaxxed takes up an ICU bed that another patient could use.

And a specialist or maybe a whole ward that should be devoted to something else (like Gynaecology or Oncology). Nothing beats to see some specialist for your non-Covid problem at 9PM with them deadly tired.

You clearly have no idea how hospitals work.  A obgyn doesn't get "pulled" to work in a covid ward.  In fact, if the hospital doesn't have room for the specialist's patients, they just lay off the specialist (it happened all through the lockdown phase of the pandemic last year).  So your obgyn isn't going to be tired from treating Covid patients; in fact they'll be very well rested, since they haven't been working at all.

Your ignorant weaseling doesn't change the facts:  the covid vaccine doesn't stop covid transfer.  So, no matter how many people get jabbed, the same number will catch covid as if everyone had never gotten jabbed.  And US hospitals have more than enough beds (except in isolated areas where medical professional firings due to mandates, public panic due to testing requirements and business mandates, and poor and illegals flooding the ERs have impacted the number), so someone else not being vaccinated doesn't affect me at at (it may be different in your third-world medical system, but that's on you...).
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Reckall on January 22, 2022, 05:42:24 PM
Depends. That person that didn't get vaxxed takes up an ICU bed that another patient could use.

And a specialist or maybe a whole ward that should be devoted to something else (like Gynaecology or Oncology). Nothing beats to see some specialist for your non-Covid problem at 9PM with them deadly tired.

What I wonder, however, is how people would react if diabetes or not keeping in shape were transmissible conditions. You watch what you eat, you go to the gym, you strive to keep a healthy lifestyle - only for some idiot who doesn't and plays online all day long to go around spreading diabetes. You wake up one morning needing insulin for the rest of your life and 100 lbs. overweight thanks to that idiot. But all is fine because "his body his choice", right?

Personally, no, I don't think that the other dude would survive the mob. But diabetes and unhealthy lifestyles aren't transmissible, as Covid is, so we will never know...
That's just a lovely attempt to rationalize totalitarianism. I know what side you'd be on in the 1930s.

No problem: I can as easily imagine what disease you would help to transmit in 1919 :)
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: dkabq on January 22, 2022, 05:49:39 PM
Depends. That person that didn't get vaxxed takes up an ICU bed that another patient could use.

And a specialist or maybe a whole ward that should be devoted to something else (like Gynaecology or Oncology). Nothing beats to see some specialist for your non-Covid problem at 9PM with them deadly tired.

What I wonder, however, is how people would react if diabetes or not keeping in shape were transmissible conditions. You watch what you eat, you go to the gym, you strive to keep a healthy lifestyle - only for some idiot who doesn't and plays online all day long to go around spreading diabetes. You wake up one morning needing insulin for the rest of your life and 100 lbs. overweight thanks to that idiot. But all is fine because "his body his choice", right?

Personally, no, I don't think that the other dude would survive the mob. But diabetes and unhealthy lifestyles aren't transmissible, as Covid is, so we will never know...
That's just a lovely attempt to rationalize totalitarianism. I know what side you'd be on in the 1930s.

No problem: I can as easily imagine what disease you would help to transmit in 1919 :)

We would have all been (potentially) transmitting the Spanish Flu in 1919. Just like we are all now (potentially) transmitting covid.

And just in case you didn't hear it the first time, none of the covid vaccines stop you from getting covid or transmitting covid. If they did, then your example would be valid.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: 3catcircus on January 22, 2022, 07:21:07 PM
Depends. That person that didn't get vaxxed takes up an ICU bed that another patient could use.

And a specialist or maybe a whole ward that should be devoted to something else (like Gynaecology or Oncology). Nothing beats to see some specialist for your non-Covid problem at 9PM with them deadly tired.

What I wonder, however, is how people would react if diabetes or not keeping in shape were transmissible conditions. You watch what you eat, you go to the gym, you strive to keep a healthy lifestyle - only for some idiot who doesn't and plays online all day long to go around spreading diabetes. You wake up one morning needing insulin for the rest of your life and 100 lbs. overweight thanks to that idiot. But all is fine because "his body his choice", right?

Personally, no, I don't think that the other dude would survive the mob. But diabetes and unhealthy lifestyles aren't transmissible, as Covid is, so we will never know...
That's just a lovely attempt to rationalize totalitarianism. I know what side you'd be on in the 1930s.

No problem: I can as easily imagine what disease you would help to transmit in 1919 :)

We would have all been (potentially) transmitting the Spanish Flu in 1919. Just like we are all now (potentially) transmitting covid.

And just in case you didn't hear it the first time, none of the covid vaccines stop you from getting covid or transmitting covid. If they did, then your example would be valid.

What I don't get is the cognitive dissonance of those who demand someone else get vaccinated to protect them.  If *you're* vaccinated because you believe the jab works, then why do you care if someone else isn't vaccinated?  They'll be risking their own lives, not your's...  Or is your insistence that they get vaccinated due to you recognizing that the vaccine doesn't prevent infection and transmission? If so, then why would you take something that isn't helping you? And why would you demand someone else take something that isn't helping?

Of course, if they simply admitted that the jabs are pretreatment that reduces duration and severity, similarly to how tamiflu reduces duration and severity of flu, then perhaps there would be less misinformation and less rancor.  But the problem is that they will never be able to keep up with the rate of mutation.  Instead of thinking they're so smart, which did nothing but prolong the amount of time it will take before all the people who would have gotten covid get it, they should have simply protected the vulnerable and allowed COVID to run roughshod.  Instead of a wide but lower peak, we'd have had a sharp short peak (area under the curve is the same for both) and made it endemic quickly.  What they don't understand is that every other coronavirus (and rhinovirus, and adenovirus, and enterovirus) starts out deadly.  There are theories that the 1889 Russian Flu was actually coronavirus OC 43. It now causes the common cold, but still causes severe lower respiratory infection and pneumonia in the immunocompromised, infants and older people. Rhinovirus can also kill.  Of course this assumes SARS-CoV-2 wasn't engineered...
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Shasarak on January 22, 2022, 07:30:23 PM
Depends. That person that didn't get vaxxed takes up an ICU bed that another patient could use. And I still don't get the resistance to the covid vaccines. Most of the people not getting it dod get the mmr and polio for example.

And a person that doesn't control the diabetes can take up an ICU bed that another patient could use. The certainly take bed space at the rehab hospital my wife works at.
Ooh! Can we do another parallel here? Are they in the ICU for diabetes or with diabetes? Is it the bloodsugar levels killing them or the concurrent electrolyte imbalances (or delayed wound healing or...)? How many comorbidities do most diabetic patients have (and yes, a great many of them are chronic,  lifestyle disorders).

Imagine if people found out who wastes the majority of healthcare money just trying to stave off certain death for another 3 to 6 months.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on January 22, 2022, 07:51:18 PM
Depends. That person that didn't get vaxxed takes up an ICU bed that another patient could use.

And a specialist or maybe a whole ward that should be devoted to something else (like Gynaecology or Oncology). Nothing beats to see some specialist for your non-Covid problem at 9PM with them deadly tired.

What I wonder, however, is how people would react if diabetes or not keeping in shape were transmissible conditions. You watch what you eat, you go to the gym, you strive to keep a healthy lifestyle - only for some idiot who doesn't and plays online all day long to go around spreading diabetes. You wake up one morning needing insulin for the rest of your life and 100 lbs. overweight thanks to that idiot. But all is fine because "his body his choice", right?

Personally, no, I don't think that the other dude would survive the mob. But diabetes and unhealthy lifestyles aren't transmissible, as Covid is, so we will never know...
That's just a lovely attempt to rationalize totalitarianism. I know what side you'd be on in the 1930s.

No problem: I can as easily imagine what disease you would help to transmit in 1919 :)
You clearly know what the word Mengele means. But do you know what the word "endemic" means?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on January 22, 2022, 07:53:38 PM
What I don't get is the cognitive dissonance of those who demand someone else get vaccinated to protect them. 
Fear.
If *you're* vaccinated because you believe the jab works, then why do you care if someone else isn't vaccinated?
Fear.
They'll be risking their own lives, not your's...  Or is your insistence that they get vaccinated due to you recognizing that the vaccine doesn't prevent infection and transmission? If so, then why would you take something that isn't helping you?
Fear.
And why would you demand someone else take something that isn't helping?
Fear.
Of course this assumes SARS-CoV-2 wasn't engineered...
Conspiracy theory!
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ratman_tf on January 22, 2022, 08:10:28 PM
Depends. That person that didn't get vaxxed takes up an ICU bed that another patient could use. And I still don't get the resistance to the covid vaccines. Most of the people not getting it dod get the mmr and polio for example.

Those vaccinations have been around for decades, and their side effects are relatively well understood.

The Covid vaccinations are barely one year old, and were rushed out the door with emergency use protections against government and corporate liability.
That's just for starters. The way the media, the governments, the pharmecutical companies, and the general pubic have acted about the vaccines have convinced me that it's better to stay unvaccinated.

Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on January 23, 2022, 06:58:11 AM
People, Kiero just admitted that he had Covid while posting on this very thread (which may explain some of his erratic "thinking"). Don't panic, scan your computers for viruses, don't use them for seven days and warn posters on other forums you frequent!

I've told you many times I've had covid and it's a nothingburger. I haven't been hiding at home avoiding human contact the last two years. I'm exposed to people all the time.

You know where another level of faith is staggering? Among no-vaxxers who, once they find themselves (or a relative) with a ventilator up in the ass, immediately ask for prayers. Usually these appeals go to "Prayer Warriors" (which would be a great Prestige Class for D&D, admittedly). People who derided the idea that vaccines could have been developed in one year are now the first in line to ask God for "a miracle". These stories almost inevitably end up with the Covided person "being now one with God", or Jesus, or the angels (thus bringing Covid up there to more unvaxxed, I guess, since no no-vaxxer would have faith in pro-vaxxers).

Yup, faith is a bitch.

You mean the fake stories the MSM pushes every time jab takeup falls?

Funny in all this time I still haven't had a single family member, not even the unhealthy ones, hospitalised "with" covid. Never mind died.

I'm still pissed I hadn't gotten my mutant powers yet.

You should be rather more concerned about clotting and cardiovascular related issues. Along with your sterilising immune system being utterly fucked.

Depends. That person that didn't get vaxxed takes up an ICU bed that another patient could use. And I still don't get the resistance to the covid vaccines. Most of the people not getting it dod get the mmr and polio for example.

What about that person who didn't bother to manage their diet and activity appropriately, taking up an ICU bed because their body was so battered by inflammation that they couldn't resist an infection healthy people shrug off? Or the person who smoked and destroyed their lungs and now requires medical attention? Can you not see where that line of reasoning takes you?

Spoiler alert on your future, should the US reach the level of vaccination of the UK, Israel, et al: "vaccination" makes fuck all difference to hospitalisation and death.

In the UK over 60% of people hosplitalised with covid are double- or triple-jabbed. Over 80% of people dying with covid are double- or triple-jabbed.

You don't get the resistance because you're clearly an imbecile who never even bothered researching what you were being injected with. Otherwise you might understand that mRNA technology is nothing like a deactivated, attenuated pathogen. The fact that you keep conflating actual vaccines with these jabs merely highlights your ignorance.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ghostmaker on January 23, 2022, 10:18:43 AM
Reckall's posts have a non-zero chance of giving us all cancer at this rate.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on January 23, 2022, 10:37:13 AM
Reckall's posts have a non-zero chance of giving us all cancer at this rate.
So is that from his posts or just with his posts?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Reckall on January 23, 2022, 01:28:42 PM
Depends. That person that didn't get vaxxed takes up an ICU bed that another patient could use.

And a specialist or maybe a whole ward that should be devoted to something else (like Gynaecology or Oncology). Nothing beats to see some specialist for your non-Covid problem at 9PM with them deadly tired.

You clearly have no idea how hospitals work.  A obgyn doesn't get "pulled" to work in a covid ward.

I clearly saw it happen. First, I have a cousin who is a big honcho in Gynaecology in a Florida hospital, and both she and other specialists were pulled from their daily jobs and sent in a "all hands on deck!" Covid emergency. Twice. I guess one can thank DeSantis for this change in the boring daily routine.

But, second, I don't even have to call my cousin, because I saw it happen live! I even wrote about it here (*). I was admitted in a Clinic for a (admittedly minor) surgery. At 10PM my specialist was explaining me the procedure. At 12PM I was told that I had to pack up and go home because the clinic had been declared a Covid ward and by 2:30PM it had to be ready for the first cases. Apparently the parent structure had been swamped with cases thanks to Omicron and the overflow kicked me back home. I'm still waiting for a new date.

In a way, both these cases show the divide between those who just had to confront the Real World(tm) and those who still have the luxury to be delusional. Pro tip: Covid and his impact happen in the Real World(tm).

The passage from delusion to reality, BTW, can be brutal. It usually generates appeals to the "Prayer Warriors" and disquieting posts on social media.

(*) Followers of this thread may remember how Kiero read about my misadventure and changed it to "Reckall had Covid" - thus giving us one more example of his reading comprehension problems.

Quote
Your ignorant weaseling doesn't change the facts

You don't know how much I would be happy to be able to change the facts through my "ignorant weaseling"...

Quote
the covid vaccine doesn't stop covid transfer.

Welcome to how vaccines work: the virus doesn't bounce off the body! Have you ever bothered to read beyond the first sentence?

Quote
And US hospitals have more than enough beds

But of course. When do you project that the States will reach the "1,000,000 Dead but Free!" goalpost?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Reckall on January 23, 2022, 02:32:52 PM
What I don't get is the cognitive dissonance of those who demand someone else get vaccinated to protect them. 
Fear.

This is one of the rare cases when I agree with you. Fear, true. I feared Covid since that day when I was eating in my favoured pub and I heard at the radio "It has been confirmed that this new virus can be transmitted while the victim is still fully asymptomatic." It was one of those "where you were when you heard about the Challenger?" moments.

In these two years I have been accused of "living in fear", "panicking" and being a "fear monger", and all these accuses are true - my point being "you have to panic before you get Covid, not after." Panicking after only generates harrowing posts on social media.

I lost my father to Covid before vaccines were available. My mother came to live with us (we have a big house) but that meant that for a long time I had her to think about. Last thing I wanted was to bring her the virus. She was and still is our local version of far-right and yet now she is fully jabbed. I guess that losing your husband of decades to Covid sobers you a bit.

I had two close friends who got Covid. One before vaxes were available. He ended up with months of conjunctivitis - not the best for a comic book artist. Another was anti-vax. When he got Covid the lab test said "our test detects the presence of all known variants of Covid" - something I didn't know was even possible. It was almost fun to read (OK, I laughed). Of course he panicked, started making lunatic demands (like asking to be vaxxed at once - of course he had the basic knowledge of delusions about vaxes that you can find in many posts here) and peed in his bed for two weeks (out of fear, not Covid).

Now he is fine again - and it comes without saying that, since he didn't die, he is deriding Covid again (while searching on the internet when he will be able to get his first jab).

And... you know the fun thing? During these two years I was able to run a Call of Cthulhu campaign (*), go to the movies, eat again in my favourite pub, have a Summer vacation in France and, basically, have a semblance of normality in my life. Of course the pandemic sux and lockdowns and other restriction are not fun, and maybe you will get Covid anyway. But the precautions you have to take are exceedingly simple - as long as you are not an idiot.

And that's it. Yes, Pat, you are right. I'm fearing Covid right now. I look forward to the day I will not need to.

(*) An interesting side note from that campaign was that the investigators were involved in a car crash. The question "Did cars in the 1920s had seat belts?" spurned some research. It turned out that in the '20s you had to ask for belt as an optional. They became part of every car in the '50s. When this happened, screams of "seatbelts are against my freedom!" promptly arose and some smartos even cut them and made a point of throwing the seatbelt in front of the local Governor office (or mayor, or liege...) Note how their use wasn't even mandatory.

So, if precautions against caving your head in a car crash were "against freedom", imagine precautions against something much, much less dangerous - like a virus. Something out of Nazi Germany, obviously.

Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on January 23, 2022, 03:00:26 PM
And... you know the fun thing? During these two years I was able to run a Call of Cthulhu campaign (*), go to the movies, eat again in my favourite pub, have a Summer vacation in France and, basically, have a semblance of normality in my life. Of course the pandemic sux and lockdowns and other restriction are not fun, and maybe you will get Covid anyway. But the precautions you have to take are exceedingly simple - as long as you are not an idiot.
So what do you think those precautions are? Which ones work, and which ones don't? Also, how deadly is covid-19, because an effective response requires measuring the trade offs? You're using personal anecdotes, but those are just the equivalent of "but what about the children" screams. Policy needs to be based on data, not on fear.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on January 23, 2022, 04:33:27 PM
I've enjoyed more than a "semblance" of normal life by ignoring the restrictions entirely and going about my business as much as I was able to.

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on January 23, 2022, 04:36:41 PM
Welcome to how vaccines work: the virus doesn't bounce off the body! Have you ever bothered to read beyond the first sentence?

You really are a fucking moron, aren't you? Real immunity prevents infection entirely. Yes, the measles vaccine is "only" 93% effective, as in only in 93% of instances does the virus "bounce off the body". But the 7% are instances where some quirk of the individual's immune system prevents it functioning the way it does for everyone else.

Meanwhile the covid jabs are only around 1% effective at preventing an infection, because they're not a vaccine. The flu jab manages somewhere between 5% and 40%, the latter in years they guess the strains right. It is at least harmless, whilst being useless, where the covid jabs are extremely harmful.

(*) An interesting side note from that campaign was that the investigators were involved in a car crash. The question "Did cars in the 1920s had seat belts?" spurned some research. It turned out that in the '20s you had to ask for belt as an optional. They became part of every car in the '50s. When this happened, screams of "seatbelts are against my freedom!" promptly arose and some smartos even cut them and made a point of throwing the seatbelt in front of the local Governor office (or mayor, or liege...) Note how their use wasn't even mandatory.

So, if precautions against caving your head in a car crash were "against freedom", imagine precautions against something much, much less dangerous - like a virus. Something out of Nazi Germany, obviously.

And of course you'd produce the retarded seatbelt analogy. Seatbelts actually work. They can be removed, you don't wear them all the time. Your lack of seatbelt doesn't affect the functioning of anyone else's seatbelt. There is literally no parallel between seatbelts and covid jabs.

Not that it stops smug twats producing this stupid analogy to "win" arguments. Even though it doesn't fit.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Reckall on January 23, 2022, 05:06:10 PM
And... you know the fun thing? During these two years I was able to run a Call of Cthulhu campaign (*), go to the movies, eat again in my favourite pub, have a Summer vacation in France and, basically, have a semblance of normality in my life. Of course the pandemic sux and lockdowns and other restriction are not fun, and maybe you will get Covid anyway. But the precautions you have to take are exceedingly simple - as long as you are not an idiot.
So what do you think those precautions are? Which ones work, and which ones don't? Also, how deadly is covid-19, because an effective response requires measuring the trade offs? You're using personal anecdotes, but those are just the equivalent of "but what about the children" screams. Policy needs to be based on data, not on fear.

But what if people refuse the data? The arguments against masks, social distancing, vax cards, the vax themselves and other idiocies that you see in this thread have been debunked over and over - to absolutely no effect for a significant chunk of the population. Only the Fear of Covid (I was about to write "the Fear of God" but those afflicted by Covid usually discover religion very fast) makes people change their views to whineful "Get vaxxed!" and "I was so wrong!" (these threads often have a grim ending and an explanation of how the dearly departed was an angel "always there for everyone" - something that makes you shudder when you think of the spread).

My "personal anecdotes" simply confirm what I read about. You can't say to me "Specialists can't be reassigned to Covid wards!!!11" not only when this is cited over and over among the most dire effects of the pandemic, but also when this is exactly what happened to me and I wrote about my experience here. Sorry but you just can't. Not to me. Not to people who see their cancer treatments and surgery postponed. Are they part of the fix? Hundreds of millions of people secretly agreed to con the rest of the planet? Dunno. Just hope that you will not need knee surgery during a Covid surge.

No, science doesn't deal with absolutes. Actually, history teaches that every time "Science" tried to do that it didn't end well. The doctor who said "You know? If we wash our hands before delivering a baby maybe we will cut the cases of puerperal fever!" ended up in an asylum (his name was Ignaz Semmelweis; check it out). And British doctors of the Royal Medical Society weren't dirty anyway. How do you dare?!

So, this is an example among many about why "Science Knows Everything" caused innumerable unnecessary death. True, you can get Covid even if vaxxed and all that jazz. And be sure that I disagree with those who deal in absolutes. "Vaccines will make you immune to Covid!!!11" was a very bad message. It only fueled the opposite view. Still, good info is out there if you want to find it. But if, after two years of pandemic, the same old, tired, debunked, sadder than a 60 years old boxer still trying to make a living on the ring arguments are still the best that "Masks =/= Freedom!!" have to offer, then why bother? Good luck.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on January 23, 2022, 07:07:55 PM
So what do you think those precautions are? Which ones work, and which ones don't? Also, how deadly is covid-19, because an effective response requires measuring the trade offs? You're using personal anecdotes, but those are just the equivalent of "but what about the children" screams. Policy needs to be based on data, not on fear.

But what if people refuse the data? The arguments against masks, social distancing, vax cards, the vax themselves and other idiocies that you see in this thread have been debunked over and over - to absolutely no effect for a significant chunk of the population. Only the Fear of Covid (I was about to write "the Fear of God" but those afflicted by Covid usually discover religion very fast) makes people change their views to whineful "Get vaxxed!" and "I was so wrong!" (these threads often have a grim ending and an explanation of how the dearly departed was an angel "always there for everyone" - something that makes you shudder when you think of the spread).
To repeat: So what do you think those precautions are? Which ones work, and which ones don't? Also, how deadly is covid-19, because an effective response requires measuring the trade offs?

You're avoiding the question with emotional appeals and attacks, not information.

You can't say to me "Specialists can't be reassigned to Covid wards!!!11" ...
I didn't. So fuck off with that.

So, this is an example among many about why "Science Knows Everything" caused innumerable unnecessary death. True, you can get Covid even if vaxxed and all that jazz. And be sure that I disagree with those who deal in absolutes. "Vaccines will make you immune to Covid!!!11" was a very bad message. It only fueled the opposite view. Still, good info is out there if you want to find it. But if, after two years of pandemic, the same old, tired, debunked, sadder than a 60 years old boxer still trying to make a living on the ring arguments are still the best that "Masks =/= Freedom!!" have to offer, then why bother? Good luck.
I cut out most of it, but after all this emotional verbiage, you still haven't answered the questions.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on January 24, 2022, 06:59:53 AM
Covid is so deadly that in the UK there was barely an uptick in the all-cause mortality in 2020, and no change in the average age of death.

It was a bureaucratic pandemic of reclassification, not mass death.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on January 24, 2022, 04:31:59 PM
Geert Vanden Bossche is only a virologist, not a mathematician or behavioural psychologist, but he says these jabs don't contribute to herd immunity, and worse create variants: https://twitter.com/9thfloor/status/1485561327397576709
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: 3catcircus on January 24, 2022, 04:42:32 PM
Geert Vanden Bossche is only a virologist, not a mathematician or behavioural psychologist, but he says these jabs don't contribute to herd immunity, and worse create variants: https://twitter.com/9thfloor/status/1485561327397576709

Yeah, God forbid we listen to experts quietly doing their work instead of attention-whore "experts." I'll have to dig up the clip of Fauci telling kids they can get AIDS just by being around people who have AIDS back in the 1980s...
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on January 24, 2022, 04:45:14 PM
Canadians, what's the deal with this trucker's convoy against jab mandates? The MSM is determined not to report on it.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Zirunel on January 24, 2022, 08:06:05 PM
Canadians, what's the deal with this trucker's convoy against jab mandates? The MSM is determined not to report on it.

It's being reported on plenty 'round here. What's your point?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: DM_Curt on January 30, 2022, 07:06:46 PM
Footage, set to the old song "Convoy"; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HoQL4gcBrHo
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ratman_tf on January 30, 2022, 08:07:22 PM
And... you know the fun thing? During these two years I was able to run a Call of Cthulhu campaign (*), go to the movies, eat again in my favourite pub, have a Summer vacation in France and, basically, have a semblance of normality in my life. Of course the pandemic sux and lockdowns and other restriction are not fun, and maybe you will get Covid anyway. But the precautions you have to take are exceedingly simple - as long as you are not an idiot.
So what do you think those precautions are? Which ones work, and which ones don't? Also, how deadly is covid-19, because an effective response requires measuring the trade offs? You're using personal anecdotes, but those are just the equivalent of "but what about the children" screams. Policy needs to be based on data, not on fear.

If I let fear rule my reactions, I'd start shooting all the pro vaxxers out there.

But I do not.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: GeekyBugle on February 01, 2022, 01:11:30 AM
Trump, Joe Rogan and others were right, Invermectine DOES have an antiviral effect on the KungFlu caused by the CCP-Virus Source:

https://archive.is/ZSuL4 (https://archive.is/ZSuL4)
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on February 01, 2022, 05:21:11 AM
Trump, Joe Rogan and others were right, Invermectine DOES have an antiviral effect on the KungFlu caused by the CCP-Virus Source:

https://archive.is/ZSuL4 (https://archive.is/ZSuL4)

I wonder when the people who allowed themselves to be jabbed with a completely unnecessary gene therapy are going to start feeling really stupid?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on February 01, 2022, 07:20:52 AM
Trump, Joe Rogan and others were right, Invermectine DOES have an antiviral effect on the KungFlu caused by the CCP-Virus Source:

https://archive.is/ZSuL4 (https://archive.is/ZSuL4)
That article is very short on factual information. It says it has an effect but does nothing to say what the effect is or even whether it is a positive or negative effect on whatever aspect(s) it impacts. Further, it's non-clinical research, so right now there's no evidence it'll work the same when used in human patients.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on February 01, 2022, 07:22:17 AM
Trump, Joe Rogan and others were right, Invermectine DOES have an antiviral effect on the KungFlu caused by the CCP-Virus Source:

https://archive.is/ZSuL4 (https://archive.is/ZSuL4)

I wonder when the people who allowed themselves to be jabbed with a completely unnecessary gene therapy are going to start feeling really stupid?
When I read about anti-vaxxers recommending people drink their own piss as a treatment for Covid, I think of Kiero. He's been drinking his own piss for a long while now.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on February 01, 2022, 07:40:49 AM
When I read about anti-vaxxers recommending people drink their own piss as a treatment for Covid, I think of Kiero. He's been drinking his own piss for a long while now.

Reported in Pfizer-funded Reuters, no less: https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/japans-kowa-says-ivermectin-effective-against-omicron-phase-iii-trial-2022-01-31/
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on February 01, 2022, 08:17:36 AM
And... you know the fun thing? During these two years I was able to run a Call of Cthulhu campaign (*), go to the movies, eat again in my favourite pub, have a Summer vacation in France and, basically, have a semblance of normality in my life. Of course the pandemic sux and lockdowns and other restriction are not fun, and maybe you will get Covid anyway. But the precautions you have to take are exceedingly simple - as long as you are not an idiot.
So what do you think those precautions are? Which ones work, and which ones don't? Also, how deadly is covid-19, because an effective response requires measuring the trade offs? You're using personal anecdotes, but those are just the equivalent of "but what about the children" screams. Policy needs to be based on data, not on fear.

But what if people refuse the data? The arguments against masks, social distancing, vax cards, the vax themselves and other idiocies that you see in this thread have been debunked over and over - to absolutely no effect for a significant chunk of the population. Only the Fear of Covid (I was about to write "the Fear of God" but those afflicted by Covid usually discover religion very fast) makes people change their views to whineful "Get vaxxed!" and "I was so wrong!" (these threads often have a grim ending and an explanation of how the dearly departed was an angel "always there for everyone" - something that makes you shudder when you think of the spread).

My "personal anecdotes" simply confirm what I read about. You can't say to me "Specialists can't be reassigned to Covid wards!!!11" not only when this is cited over and over among the most dire effects of the pandemic, but also when this is exactly what happened to me and I wrote about my experience here. Sorry but you just can't. Not to me. Not to people who see their cancer treatments and surgery postponed. Are they part of the fix? Hundreds of millions of people secretly agreed to con the rest of the planet? Dunno. Just hope that you will not need knee surgery during a Covid surge.

No, science doesn't deal with absolutes. Actually, history teaches that every time "Science" tried to do that it didn't end well. The doctor who said "You know? If we wash our hands before delivering a baby maybe we will cut the cases of puerperal fever!" ended up in an asylum (his name was Ignaz Semmelweis; check it out). And British doctors of the Royal Medical Society weren't dirty anyway. How do you dare?!

So, this is an example among many about why "Science Knows Everything" caused innumerable unnecessary death. True, you can get Covid even if vaxxed and all that jazz. And be sure that I disagree with those who deal in absolutes. "Vaccines will make you immune to Covid!!!11" was a very bad message. It only fueled the opposite view. Still, good info is out there if you want to find it. But if, after two years of pandemic, the same old, tired, debunked, sadder than a 60 years old boxer still trying to make a living on the ring arguments are still the best that "Masks =/= Freedom!!" have to offer, then why bother? Good luck.

  You do realize, I hope, that several medical professionals on the anti vaxx channels like CNN have pretty loudly proclaimed cloth masks have zero effect on the spread of covid?  What exactly are you calling debunking masks?  Because it sure seems to me the past two years have made a whole bunch of people who simply chime off whatever the AUTHORITY told them and then change it and screech "science" look pretty fucking stupid.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on February 01, 2022, 08:22:19 AM
When I read about anti-vaxxers recommending people drink their own piss as a treatment for Covid, I think of Kiero. He's been drinking his own piss for a long while now.

Reported in Pfizer-funded Reuters, no less: https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/japans-kowa-says-ivermectin-effective-against-omicron-phase-iii-trial-2022-01-31/
It's the same article, with the same limitations I mentioned before. Take another swig of your piss.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on February 01, 2022, 08:36:24 AM
It's the same article, with the same limitations I mentioned before. Take another swig of your piss.

I'll leave that to you, since you're a medical "professional", that's what ancient Egyptian doctors used to do.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: KingCheops on February 01, 2022, 10:54:15 AM
Trump, Joe Rogan and others were right, Invermectine DOES have an antiviral effect on the KungFlu caused by the CCP-Virus Source:

https://archive.is/ZSuL4 (https://archive.is/ZSuL4)

I wonder when the people who allowed themselves to be jabbed with a completely unnecessary gene therapy are going to start feeling really stupid?

They already are hence why they're doubling down on trying to force the rest of us to be injected.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: GeekyBugle on February 01, 2022, 11:18:40 AM
Trump, Joe Rogan and others were right, Invermectine DOES have an antiviral effect on the KungFlu caused by the CCP-Virus Source:

https://archive.is/ZSuL4 (https://archive.is/ZSuL4)

I wonder when the people who allowed themselves to be jabbed with a completely unnecessary gene therapy are going to start feeling really stupid?

Almost instantly in my case, worst when I found out the jab they gave me can cause miocarditis, and yet I've never been on the screeching side trying to force anyone to take it.

In the moment I thought it was the best choice with the information at my disposal. You took a different decision, good for you.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: GeekyBugle on February 01, 2022, 11:23:12 AM
Trump, Joe Rogan and others were right, Invermectine DOES have an antiviral effect on the KungFlu caused by the CCP-Virus Source:

https://archive.is/ZSuL4 (https://archive.is/ZSuL4)
That article is very short on factual information. It says it has an effect but does nothing to say what the effect is or even whether it is a positive or negative effect on whatever aspect(s) it impacts. Further, it's non-clinical research, so right now there's no evidence it'll work the same when used in human patients.

Wow, a news article isn't a scientific paper, HappyDerp is making some progress, maybe one day he'll learn that scientific papers are published in special publications for a reason and that he could go search for it.

Yes derpy one, "It has an anti-viral effect" could totally mean it has the effect of aiding the virus to kill you.

When presented with reports of it's use in humans you dismiss those because of size sample, never mind that if you added the samples then it wouldn't be so small and that the vaccines human trial was made on us with you clapping like a seal.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Shasarak on February 01, 2022, 04:53:08 PM
Trump, Joe Rogan and others were right, Invermectine DOES have an antiviral effect on the KungFlu caused by the CCP-Virus Source:

https://archive.is/ZSuL4 (https://archive.is/ZSuL4)

I wonder when the people who allowed themselves to be jabbed with a completely unnecessary gene therapy are going to start feeling really stupid?

If the gene therapy does its job, never.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: dkabq on February 01, 2022, 05:32:34 PM
It's pretty bad when SFgate runs an article arguing for getting rid of mask mandates:
https://www.sfgate.com/politics-column/article/Gavin-Newsom-London-Breed-masks-16819016.php

tl:dr = "Sunday's SoFi incident has demonstrated that Newsom, Breed and Garcetti have already gauged their risk tolerances, (correctly) determined they're at minimal risk of a bad outcome from COVID-19, and decided to go maskless and live their lives. When will the rest of the state have that luxury?"
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Zelen on February 01, 2022, 06:17:53 PM
Lets not buy into the frame that we should just "live our lives" after these assholes spent 2 years waging psychological warfare, impoverishing people, assaulting them, and demanding people be injected with harmful substances.

Fuck them. Gallows.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: RandyB on February 01, 2022, 10:03:16 PM
Lets not buy into the frame that we should just "live our lives" after these assholes spent 2 years waging psychological warfare, impoverishing people, assaulting them, and demanding people be injected with harmful substances.

Fuck them. Gallows.

If we see justice done for this in our lifetimes, it will make Nuremberg look like traffic court.

Where to I sign up for the popcorn concession?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Shasarak on February 01, 2022, 10:28:30 PM
Lets not buy into the frame that we should just "live our lives" after these assholes spent 2 years waging psychological warfare, impoverishing people, assaulting them, and demanding people be injected with harmful substances.

Fuck them. Gallows.

If we see justice done for this in our lifetimes, it will make Nuremberg look like traffic court.

Where to I sign up for the popcorn concession?

I'll put $20 internet bucks down on No Justice.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: GeekyBugle on February 01, 2022, 10:31:08 PM
Lets not buy into the frame that we should just "live our lives" after these assholes spent 2 years waging psychological warfare, impoverishing people, assaulting them, and demanding people be injected with harmful substances.

Fuck them. Gallows.

If we see justice done for this in our lifetimes, it will make Nuremberg look like traffic court.

Where to I sign up for the popcorn concession?

I'll put $20 internet bucks down on No Justice.

I'll join you and raise it to $1,000 internet bucks that we'll never see this even aknowledged anywhere in the MSM, much less in any court.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: jhkim on February 02, 2022, 02:24:13 AM
If we see justice done for this in our lifetimes, it will make Nuremberg look like traffic court.

Where to I sign up for the popcorn concession?

What is it with comparing opponents to nazis? There was the John Battle video accusing Pundit of being a nazi, which Pundit responded by calling Battle a nazi, and now RandyB suggests today's crimes are vastly *worse* than nazis? I feel like it is a complete disconnect with history on both sides.

Both the mainstream and alternative media are hellbent on portraying everything as terrible because of the demonic other side, because outrage gets clicks and subscriptions. But the world is so much better now than in WWII. Yes, there are challenges - but democracy has spread, the Third Reich and Soviet Union have ended, wars are much reduced, and overall prosperity in the world has risen. There are plenty of challenges, but from knowing people who grew up in actual 20th century war, it seems like an impossible comparison to today.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: GeekyBugle on February 02, 2022, 02:53:57 AM
If we see justice done for this in our lifetimes, it will make Nuremberg look like traffic court.

Where to I sign up for the popcorn concession?

What is it with comparing opponents to nazis? There was the John Battle video accusing Pundit of being a nazi, which Pundit responded by calling Battle a nazi, and now RandyB suggests today's crimes are vastly *worse* than nazis? I feel like it is a complete disconnect with history on both sides.

Both the mainstream and alternative media are hellbent on portraying everything as terrible because of the demonic other side, because outrage gets clicks and subscriptions. But the world is so much better now than in WWII. Yes, there are challenges - but democracy has spread, the Third Reich and Soviet Union have ended, wars are much reduced, and overall prosperity in the world has risen. There are plenty of challenges, but from knowing people who grew up in actual 20th century war, it seems like an impossible comparison to today.

Saying that legal repercutions to today's crimes against humanity would make Nuremberg look like traffic court, isn't calling anyone a nazi. It's recognizing that crimes against humanity were commited. But nice attempt at a strawman, might I suggest you someday try steelmanning your opponent's positions?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on February 02, 2022, 02:58:33 AM
If we see justice done for this in our lifetimes, it will make Nuremberg look like traffic court.

Where to I sign up for the popcorn concession?

What is it with comparing opponents to nazis?
After a decade where one side has been calling everyone Nazis nonstop with absolutely no justification whatsoever, you jump in and complain it's unjust to point out that the name callers are supporting policies that violate laws that were created in response to the horrors of the Nazi regime?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ghostmaker on February 02, 2022, 08:16:36 AM
If we see justice done for this in our lifetimes, it will make Nuremberg look like traffic court.

Where to I sign up for the popcorn concession?

What is it with comparing opponents to nazis? There was the John Battle video accusing Pundit of being a nazi, which Pundit responded by calling Battle a nazi, and now RandyB suggests today's crimes are vastly *worse* than nazis? I feel like it is a complete disconnect with history on both sides.

Both the mainstream and alternative media are hellbent on portraying everything as terrible because of the demonic other side, because outrage gets clicks and subscriptions. But the world is so much better now than in WWII. Yes, there are challenges - but democracy has spread, the Third Reich and Soviet Union have ended, wars are much reduced, and overall prosperity in the world has risen. There are plenty of challenges, but from knowing people who grew up in actual 20th century war, it seems like an impossible comparison to today.
Suck it up. That's been the rhetoric for a while.

Some of us have memories longer than goldfish, after all.

"They were so busy calling Bush Hitler, and Cheney Hitler, and Rumsfeld Hitler, that they completely missed the guy feeding people into a wood chipper."
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Trond on February 02, 2022, 10:23:55 AM
The link below is Canadian news bullshit (pardon my French-Canadian). It IS about the truckers. Any researcher worth his salt who looked into SARS-CoV-2 knew this a long time ago. I certainly did, and I’m not a specialist in virology. For starters, you can’t eliminate a disease that is this transmissible and so easily jumps from animals to humans. Are we supposed to pretend that this is new info, and that it’s not really about politicians sensing that the tide of public opinion is turning?

https://ottawacitizen.com/news/canada/health-officials-are-hinting-at-ending-covid-restrictions-and-its-not-because-of-the-truckers/wcm/6c5fd757-f643-400a-a8d9-0259b6dc2cd6
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on February 02, 2022, 10:48:58 AM
  The nazi thing is a product of 80 years of constant yammer about what was painted as the worst political movement in history.  Mathematically, it probably was not, horrible to be sure, but its commie counterparts got no where near the press or push the nazis got in print, film, tv, news shows, documentaries, etc for years and years and years.  Boomers especially seem really into how terrible nazis and neo nazi are/were.   Shitloads of 80's movies and tv shows are constantly banging on and on about the ideology and how evil and horrible it is/was.  Strangely no concern about the commies infiltrating most major institutions around that time and a bit before, but anyway, Nazis are painted as the absolute worst thing a person can be by media for a loooong time.   So of course it ends up being a common insult/name to call someone for generation X people (Boomers hammered constantly about nazis to gen X) to really get under their skin.

  I think the later generations, M and Z just toss it out like you might call someone a goof, with no real underlying understanding that Nazis were in fact horrible (though they got a whole bunch of extra hype while other movements were ignored, they were horrible) and what they are implying about someone.  I do have some worries that in a couple more generations kids are going to try to look "edgy" and start sporting Hugo Boss uniforms due to the ease of using the name as an insult for Gen X, and the complete disregard for what they are saying by later generations and using it as a casual insult.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ghostmaker on February 02, 2022, 11:43:34 AM
I love the reports that the Canadian government is calling tow-truck companies to haul off the trucks... and the companies are saying, 'Sorry, can't get out there due to Covid. Moose outside shoulda told ya.'
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: KingCheops on February 02, 2022, 12:03:48 PM
The link below is Canadian news bullshit (pardon my French-Canadian). It IS about the truckers. Any researcher worth his salt who looked into SARS-CoV-2 knew this a long time ago. I certainly did, and I’m not a specialist in virology. For starters, you can’t eliminate a disease that is this transmissible and so easily jumps from animals to humans. Are we supposed to pretend that this is new info, and that it’s not really about politicians sensing that the tide of public opinion is turning?

https://ottawacitizen.com/news/canada/health-officials-are-hinting-at-ending-covid-restrictions-and-its-not-because-of-the-truckers/wcm/6c5fd757-f643-400a-a8d9-0259b6dc2cd6

Angus Reid polling (that's our premiere polling up here that the government uses) shows an 11% increase in the last two weeks of people saying we should get rid of all mandates.  We now sit at 54% against mandates.  That coincides with the start of the trucker stuff.  What it did is showed all the atomized individuals that there's loads of people like them out there and they can speak up.  At the very least the truckers have now made it okay to discuss resistance to the fascists.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: SHARK on February 02, 2022, 02:09:44 PM
Lets not buy into the frame that we should just "live our lives" after these assholes spent 2 years waging psychological warfare, impoverishing people, assaulting them, and demanding people be injected with harmful substances.

Fuck them. Gallows.

Greetings!

Exactly, Zelen! Let these fuckers *swing*. They all deserve to dance for the evil they have supported, promoted, and enforced on people.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: moonsweeper on February 02, 2022, 03:55:17 PM
If we see justice done for this in our lifetimes, it will make Nuremberg look like traffic court.

Where to I sign up for the popcorn concession?

What is it with comparing opponents to nazis? There was the John Battle video accusing Pundit of being a nazi, which Pundit responded by calling Battle a nazi, and now RandyB suggests today's crimes are vastly *worse* than nazis? I feel like it is a complete disconnect with history on both sides.

Both the mainstream and alternative media are hellbent on portraying everything as terrible because of the demonic other side, because outrage gets clicks and subscriptions. But the world is so much better now than in WWII. Yes, there are challenges - but democracy has spread, the Third Reich and Soviet Union have ended, wars are much reduced, and overall prosperity in the world has risen. There are plenty of challenges, but from knowing people who grew up in actual 20th century war, it seems like an impossible comparison to today.

Considering the violations of the Nuremberg Code that is actually the best comparison...
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Timothe on February 02, 2022, 04:55:35 PM
Today’s Antifa are like Munich Brownshirts, except they’re not combat veterans and they live in their parents’ basements.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: jhkim on February 02, 2022, 05:40:09 PM
The nazi thing is a product of 80 years of constant yammer about what was painted as the worst political movement in history.
I think the later generations, M and Z just toss it out like you might call someone a goof, with no real underlying understanding that Nazis were in fact horrible (though they got a whole bunch of extra hype while other movements were ignored, they were horrible) and what they are implying about someone.  I do have some worries that in a couple more generations kids are going to try to look "edgy" and start sporting Hugo Boss uniforms due to the ease of using the name as an insult for Gen X, and the complete disregard for what they are saying by later generations and using it as a casual insult.

Yes, I am well aware nazi name-calling is not a new thing - but sometimes I get overwhelmed by how ridiculous it is. One thing I picture is telling a Holocaust survivor "Well, you went through some bad stuff - but _I_ had to live through (X)" - when that's anything in the last few years in the U.S.

There have been plenty of injustices - but I think it should be plain that we are not in the midst of anything like the Holocaust or WWII.

Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on February 02, 2022, 05:57:51 PM
The nazi thing is a product of 80 years of constant yammer about what was painted as the worst political movement in history.
I think the later generations, M and Z just toss it out like you might call someone a goof, with no real underlying understanding that Nazis were in fact horrible (though they got a whole bunch of extra hype while other movements were ignored, they were horrible) and what they are implying about someone.  I do have some worries that in a couple more generations kids are going to try to look "edgy" and start sporting Hugo Boss uniforms due to the ease of using the name as an insult for Gen X, and the complete disregard for what they are saying by later generations and using it as a casual insult.

Yes, I am well aware nazi name-calling is not a new thing - but sometimes I get overwhelmed by how ridiculous it is. One thing I picture is telling a Holocaust survivor "Well, you went through some bad stuff - but _I_ had to live through (X)" - when that's anything in the last few years in the U.S.

There have been plenty of injustices - but I think it should be plain that we are not in the midst of anything like the Holocaust or WWII.
You're correct. It's more like the mid-1930s, and we're learning who among us would have been Nazi apologists.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on February 02, 2022, 06:08:31 PM
The nazi thing is a product of 80 years of constant yammer about what was painted as the worst political movement in history.
I think the later generations, M and Z just toss it out like you might call someone a goof, with no real underlying understanding that Nazis were in fact horrible (though they got a whole bunch of extra hype while other movements were ignored, they were horrible) and what they are implying about someone.  I do have some worries that in a couple more generations kids are going to try to look "edgy" and start sporting Hugo Boss uniforms due to the ease of using the name as an insult for Gen X, and the complete disregard for what they are saying by later generations and using it as a casual insult.

Yes, I am well aware nazi name-calling is not a new thing - but sometimes I get overwhelmed by how ridiculous it is. One thing I picture is telling a Holocaust survivor "Well, you went through some bad stuff - but _I_ had to live through (X)" - when that's anything in the last few years in the U.S.

There have been plenty of injustices - but I think it should be plain that we are not in the midst of anything like the Holocaust or WWII.

  Of course we are not in the midst of it.  However, even the ADL now redefines racism to be something only white people can do, there is a constant and long tirade on mass media about how terrible white people are, there are laws to limit how many white people get into college or hired for certain positions, on and on. 

    So...being a student of history, and understanding how tenuous the financial situation is in the USA, and watching a massive troop build up on a nation adjacent to Russia....I think what we can say, is we do certainly have some elements from before WW2 that could play out to end horribly.

  Edited to add: I consider, and I suspect a sizable portion of the population in the USA does as well, the USA government to be a BIGGER enemy and problem for me than the Russian Federation.  AS such, there is NO WAY I will support in ANY way military action there, at all.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Timothe on February 02, 2022, 07:33:20 PM
The nazi thing is a product of 80 years of constant yammer about what was painted as the worst political movement in history.
I think the later generations, M and Z just toss it out like you might call someone a goof, with no real underlying understanding that Nazis were in fact horrible (though they got a whole bunch of extra hype while other movements were ignored, they were horrible) and what they are implying about someone.  I do have some worries that in a couple more generations kids are going to try to look "edgy" and start sporting Hugo Boss uniforms due to the ease of using the name as an insult for Gen X, and the complete disregard for what they are saying by later generations and using it as a casual insult.

Yes, I am well aware nazi name-calling is not a new thing - but sometimes I get overwhelmed by how ridiculous it is. One thing I picture is telling a Holocaust survivor "Well, you went through some bad stuff - but _I_ had to live through (X)" - when that's anything in the last few years in the U.S.

There have been plenty of injustices - but I think it should be plain that we are not in the midst of anything like the Holocaust or WWII.

We went to war and killed millions of people over X number of American deaths at Pearl Harbor. Our 9/11 casualties exceeded that number.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: jhkim on February 02, 2022, 09:16:57 PM
There have been plenty of injustices - but I think it should be plain that we are not in the midst of anything like the Holocaust or WWII.

  Of course we are not in the midst of it.  However, even the ADL now redefines racism to be something only white people can do, there is a constant and long tirade on mass media about how terrible white people are, there are laws to limit how many white people get into college or hired for certain positions, on and on. 

    So...being a student of history, and understanding how tenuous the financial situation is in the USA, and watching a massive troop build up on a nation adjacent to Russia....I think what we can say, is we do certainly have some elements from before WW2 that could play out to end horribly.

  Edited to add: I consider, and I suspect a sizable portion of the population in the USA does as well, the USA government to be a BIGGER enemy and problem for me than the Russian Federation.  AS such, there is NO WAY I will support in ANY way military action there, at all.

Regarding racism -- I would say that back in 1941, the US government was more racially prejudiced than today. That's not condoning anti-white prejudice, but I think the contrast in clear. In 1941, the military was openly segregated by race, as were many public schools and colleges. The government had been conducting the Tuskegee Syphilis Study for 9 years. My own parents' marriage would have been illegal in many states (including California) because of anti-miscegenation laws.

Yet despite this overt racism, many Americans of all races still signed on to fight the Nazis and the Japanese - which I think was a good thing. As Americans, their lives were often more affected by their own government's racism than by any policy in Germany, yet still they supported. They could continue to oppose racism in their own country, but also fight against worse tyranny elsewhere - because letting Nazi Germany and the Japanese Empire conquer unchecked would make the world worse, not better.

There is a possibility of an awful outcome - but I also don't think that backing down is always the best way to peace. I think making a firm, clear demonstration that one will use force if necessary is a deterrent. That is certainly my hope with Ukraine.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on February 02, 2022, 09:33:10 PM
There have been plenty of injustices - but I think it should be plain that we are not in the midst of anything like the Holocaust or WWII.

  Of course we are not in the midst of it.  However, even the ADL now redefines racism to be something only white people can do, there is a constant and long tirade on mass media about how terrible white people are, there are laws to limit how many white people get into college or hired for certain positions, on and on. 

    So...being a student of history, and understanding how tenuous the financial situation is in the USA, and watching a massive troop build up on a nation adjacent to Russia....I think what we can say, is we do certainly have some elements from before WW2 that could play out to end horribly.

  Edited to add: I consider, and I suspect a sizable portion of the population in the USA does as well, the USA government to be a BIGGER enemy and problem for me than the Russian Federation.  AS such, there is NO WAY I will support in ANY way military action there, at all.

Regarding racism -- I would say that back in 1941, the US government was more racially prejudiced than today. That's not condoning anti-white prejudice, but I think the contrast in clear. In 1941, the military was openly segregated by race, as were many public schools and colleges. The government had been conducting the Tuskegee Syphilis Study for 9 years. My own parents' marriage would have been illegal in many states (including California) because of anti-miscegenation laws.

Yet despite this overt racism, many Americans of all races still signed on to fight the Nazis and the Japanese - which I think was a good thing. As Americans, their lives were often more affected by their own government's racism than by any policy in Germany, yet still they supported. They could continue to oppose racism in their own country, but also fight against worse tyranny elsewhere - because letting Nazi Germany and the Japanese Empire conquer unchecked would make the world worse, not better.

There is a possibility of an awful outcome - but I also don't think that backing down is always the best way to peace. I think making a firm, clear demonstration that one will use force if necessary is a deterrent. That is certainly my hope with Ukraine.

   Your racism lesson is bullshit whataboutism.  Americans DID NOT SIGN ON TO FIGHT GERMANY AND JAPAN, they got DRAFTED en masse after the US Government did about all they could to provoke both and declared War after Japan's attack.  Unless you are taking your ass over to fight some russians, you and Blinken can STFU about about demonstrating force, because I suspect you and he have a similar level of experience with using it. 
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on February 02, 2022, 09:38:17 PM
  I am not going to edit what I said, but I do feel I came off a bit too strong.  Ukraine is NOT my business, is NOT the USA's business.  That is not a wasteland threatening them full of dudes on camels in caves.  If the USA steps even a bit wrong there, it will have consequences you, nor I can even imagine.  I am a bit weary of watching and listening to people who have never been in so much as a fist fight talk a bunch of shit about showing or using force, when the main reason they say stupid shit like that, is they think they will never have to suffer the consequences of such "show of force".  This is a different animal, and it is important to keep in mind, the USA couldnt win against dudes with 40 year old rifles hiding in caves.  Start fighting with Russia on its border is LITERALLY THE WORST MILITARY ERROR IN HISTORY.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on February 02, 2022, 10:20:58 PM
You had "three years in a row" something that is around from only two?

The Alpha variant was in circulation in late 2019. Or didn't you know that?

I' curious, how many times have you tested positive for Covid 19?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Shasarak on February 02, 2022, 10:22:56 PM
You're correct. It's more like the mid-1930s, and we're learning who among us would have been Nazi apologists.

I think we already knew who that is.

And they know who they are too.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Shasarak on February 02, 2022, 10:23:52 PM
Start fighting with Russia on its border is LITERALLY THE WORST MILITARY ERROR IN HISTORY.

If you hurry you can still start the fight in winter.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on February 02, 2022, 10:30:32 PM
Depends. That person that didn't get vaxxed takes up an ICU bed that another patient could use.

And a specialist or maybe a whole ward that should be devoted to something else (like Gynaecology or Oncology). Nothing beats to see some specialist for your non-Covid problem at 9PM with them deadly tired.

What I wonder, however, is how people would react if diabetes or not keeping in shape were transmissible conditions. You watch what you eat, you go to the gym, you strive to keep a healthy lifestyle - only for some idiot who doesn't and plays online all day long to go around spreading diabetes. You wake up one morning needing insulin for the rest of your life and 100 lbs. overweight thanks to that idiot. But all is fine because "his body his choice", right?

Personally, no, I don't think that the other dude would survive the mob. But diabetes and unhealthy lifestyles aren't transmissible, as Covid is, so we will never know...
That's just a lovely attempt to rationalize totalitarianism. I know what side you'd be on in the 1930s.

You know, the whole "People who don't view the world like I do should be dismissed as Nazis" isn't cool when the left does it, and isn't cool when you do it either. Humans are complex, you don't have a bead on how people would have behaved under different circumstances based on their beliefs about this one topic, and this whole "I am going to use the tragedy of the holocaust for my own partisan ends" bullshit has got to fucking stop. All it does is diminish the actual Nazi fucks who actually committed mass genocide as equivalent to whatever the hot topic is of the day.

[Edit - and I see others called you out for this same shit. And predictably you deflect and play the victim.]
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: jhkim on February 02, 2022, 11:54:13 PM
  I am not going to edit what I said, but I do feel I came off a bit too strong.  Ukraine is NOT my business, is NOT the USA's business.  That is not a wasteland threatening them full of dudes on camels in caves.  If the USA steps even a bit wrong there, it will have consequences you, nor I can even imagine.  I am a bit weary of watching and listening to people who have never been in so much as a fist fight talk a bunch of shit about showing or using force, when the main reason they say stupid shit like that, is they think they will never have to suffer the consequences of such "show of force".  This is a different animal, and it is important to keep in mind, the USA couldnt win against dudes with 40 year old rifles hiding in caves.  Start fighting with Russia on its border is LITERALLY THE WORST MILITARY ERROR IN HISTORY.

To be fair, the Russians also couldn't win against dudes with 40 year old rifles hiding in caves. In fact, the Soviets had many times more killed in half the time in their war against the Afghans. (Soviet deaths were at least 15,000 from 1979 to 1989, while the U.S. lost 2,420 from 2001 to 2021.)

I don't know about worst - but a major military error was "Hey, if we just let the Germans have Poland, they'll stop there. After all, Poland is next to Germany, so it's not our business to intervene."

As for where we have business being and putting our values on the line -- where do you think we do have business? I supported WWII, the Korean War, the Kuwait War, and almost nothing else. I've been to multiple anti-war protests, but when democratic countries are invaded just to conquer them, I think it is the world's business - not just the U.S., but every other country in the world. That is what the world came together to agree on after WWII, that conquest for territory was wrong and would not be tolerated. And I think the world is much better for it.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: GeekyBugle on February 03, 2022, 12:59:24 AM
  I am not going to edit what I said, but I do feel I came off a bit too strong.  Ukraine is NOT my business, is NOT the USA's business.  That is not a wasteland threatening them full of dudes on camels in caves.  If the USA steps even a bit wrong there, it will have consequences you, nor I can even imagine.  I am a bit weary of watching and listening to people who have never been in so much as a fist fight talk a bunch of shit about showing or using force, when the main reason they say stupid shit like that, is they think they will never have to suffer the consequences of such "show of force".  This is a different animal, and it is important to keep in mind, the USA couldnt win against dudes with 40 year old rifles hiding in caves.  Start fighting with Russia on its border is LITERALLY THE WORST MILITARY ERROR IN HISTORY.

To be fair, the Russians also couldn't win against dudes with 40 year old rifles hiding in caves. In fact, the Soviets had many times more killed in half the time in their war against the Afghans. (Soviet deaths were at least 15,000 from 1979 to 1989, while the U.S. lost 2,420 from 2001 to 2021.)

I don't know about worst - but a major military error was "Hey, if we just let the Germans have Poland, they'll stop there. After all, Poland is next to Germany, so it's not our business to intervene."

As for where we have business being and putting our values on the line -- where do you think we do have business? I supported WWII, the Korean War, the Kuwait War, and almost nothing else. I've been to multiple anti-war protests, but when democratic countries are invaded just to conquer them, I think it is the world's business - not just the U.S., but every other country in the world. That is what the world came together to agree on after WWII, that conquest for territory was wrong and would not be tolerated. And I think the world is much better for it.

You're not old enough to have "supported" at least two of those wars. I don't remember the date of the Kuwait one so I'll give you that one, but the other two? I bet you weren't even a spark in your daddy's eyes.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: jhkim on February 03, 2022, 01:06:57 AM
You're not old enough to have "supported" at least two of those wars. I don't remember the date of the Kuwait one so I'll give you that one, but the other two? I bet you weren't even a spark in your daddy's eyes.

Sorry if my phrasing was unclear. I didn't mean to imply I was alive during WWII or the Korean War - just that I believe that the U.S. was justified in going to war in those cases.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on February 03, 2022, 01:57:57 AM
Depends. That person that didn't get vaxxed takes up an ICU bed that another patient could use.

And a specialist or maybe a whole ward that should be devoted to something else (like Gynaecology or Oncology). Nothing beats to see some specialist for your non-Covid problem at 9PM with them deadly tired.

What I wonder, however, is how people would react if diabetes or not keeping in shape were transmissible conditions. You watch what you eat, you go to the gym, you strive to keep a healthy lifestyle - only for some idiot who doesn't and plays online all day long to go around spreading diabetes. You wake up one morning needing insulin for the rest of your life and 100 lbs. overweight thanks to that idiot. But all is fine because "his body his choice", right?

Personally, no, I don't think that the other dude would survive the mob. But diabetes and unhealthy lifestyles aren't transmissible, as Covid is, so we will never know...
That's just a lovely attempt to rationalize totalitarianism. I know what side you'd be on in the 1930s.

You know, the whole "People who don't view the world like I do should be dismissed as Nazis" isn't cool when the left does it, and isn't cool when you do it either. Humans are complex, you don't have a bead on how people would have behaved under different circumstances based on their beliefs about this one topic, and this whole "I am going to use the tragedy of the holocaust for my own partisan ends" bullshit has got to fucking stop. All it does is diminish the actual Nazi fucks who actually committed mass genocide as equivalent to whatever the hot topic is of the day.

[Edit - and I see others called you out for this same shit. And predictably you deflect and play the victim.]
No, absolutely no one has called me out for that. I responded to someone who, quite hypocritically, tried to call a third person out about it.

After years of people being called Nazis based on nothing whatsoever, you don't get to use "oh noes I'm being called a Nazi" as a shield when someone points out the policies you support literally violate the Nuremberg code. That's a completely fair assessment based on real similarities, not random name calling. And quite predictably, you go on to accuse me of doing what you're doing, not what I'm doing, because you've become completely irrational in pursuit of this vendetta of yours.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on February 03, 2022, 05:40:24 AM
Almost instantly in my case, worst when I found out the jab they gave me can cause miocarditis, and yet I've never been on the screeching side trying to force anyone to take it.

In the moment I thought it was the best choice with the information at my disposal. You took a different decision, good for you.

Sorry to hear that.

At the beginning, my position was "why the fuck do I need a vaccine for the common cold, when I've never had the flu jab". Then it morphed into "why are they pushing this completely unnecessary thing so hard - no thanks".

I' curious, how many times have you tested positive for Covid 19?

Zero, I've never been tested. I don't engage in the testing scam. People who I was in close proximity to, who had the same symptoms and the same time, did.

The tests are utter bullshit, there are a dozen other viral infections, including things like noroviruses, which will give a positive result.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ghostmaker on February 03, 2022, 08:29:30 AM
There have been plenty of injustices - but I think it should be plain that we are not in the midst of anything like the Holocaust or WWII.

  Of course we are not in the midst of it.  However, even the ADL now redefines racism to be something only white people can do, there is a constant and long tirade on mass media about how terrible white people are, there are laws to limit how many white people get into college or hired for certain positions, on and on. 

    So...being a student of history, and understanding how tenuous the financial situation is in the USA, and watching a massive troop build up on a nation adjacent to Russia....I think what we can say, is we do certainly have some elements from before WW2 that could play out to end horribly.

  Edited to add: I consider, and I suspect a sizable portion of the population in the USA does as well, the USA government to be a BIGGER enemy and problem for me than the Russian Federation.  AS such, there is NO WAY I will support in ANY way military action there, at all.

Regarding racism -- I would say that back in 1941, the US government was more racially prejudiced than today. That's not condoning anti-white prejudice, but I think the contrast in clear. In 1941, the military was openly segregated by race, as were many public schools and colleges. The government had been conducting the Tuskegee Syphilis Study for 9 years. My own parents' marriage would have been illegal in many states (including California) because of anti-miscegenation laws.

Yet despite this overt racism, many Americans of all races still signed on to fight the Nazis and the Japanese - which I think was a good thing. As Americans, their lives were often more affected by their own government's racism than by any policy in Germany, yet still they supported. They could continue to oppose racism in their own country, but also fight against worse tyranny elsewhere - because letting Nazi Germany and the Japanese Empire conquer unchecked would make the world worse, not better.

There is a possibility of an awful outcome - but I also don't think that backing down is always the best way to peace. I think making a firm, clear demonstration that one will use force if necessary is a deterrent. That is certainly my hope with Ukraine.

   Your racism lesson is bullshit whataboutism.  Americans DID NOT SIGN ON TO FIGHT GERMANY AND JAPAN, they got DRAFTED en masse after the US Government did about all they could to provoke both and declared War after Japan's attack.  Unless you are taking your ass over to fight some russians, you and Blinken can STFU about about demonstrating force, because I suspect you and he have a similar level of experience with using it.
Not quite. Germany and Italy fatally miscalculated after Japan's attack by declaring war on the U.S. Wasn't exactly a 'draft'. In fact, Churchill himself would state that he slept peacefully for the first time since the war in Europe began, upon hearing the news. Because Germany really didn't have any way to strike at the U.S. This meant there was an entire industrial base that the Germans could not bomb into rubble.

Remember: professionals study logistics.

That being said, though, I am absolutely convinced that the desperate push to 'save Ukraine' is not based on any kind of moral grandstanding, but simply to prevent Russia from fucking up a money-laundering operation.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Timothe on February 03, 2022, 09:22:50 AM
Churchill slept peacefully after he purposefully let German U-boats sink the Lusitania, which drew America into the war.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Timothe on February 03, 2022, 09:24:38 AM

That being said, though, I am absolutely convinced that the desperate push to 'save Ukraine' is not based on any kind of moral grandstanding, but simply to prevent Russia from fucking up a money-laundering operation.

It’s odd that they’re calling for NATO to defend the Ukraine, when the Ukraine was part of the Warsaw Pact that NATO was created to defend us from.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ghostmaker on February 03, 2022, 09:47:17 AM
Churchill slept peacefully after he purposefully let German U-boats sink the Lusitania, which drew America into the war.
Except Churchill wasn't prime minister, and that was World War 1.

Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on February 03, 2022, 09:51:37 AM
Churchill slept peacefully after he purposefully let German U-boats sink the Lusitania, which drew America into the war.
Except Churchill wasn't prime minister, and that was World War 1.
Oh, sure...believe the history.  ;)
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on February 03, 2022, 10:26:07 AM
Israel - jabs, hospitalisations and deaths:

(https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/9700bfb9cb34808f208a4cf4226de1a19d9917fa644a69970995cea56db9bf99.gif)

Nope, no correlation there, none at all...
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on February 03, 2022, 10:46:08 AM
Israel - jabs, hospitalisations and deaths:

(https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/9700bfb9cb34808f208a4cf4226de1a19d9917fa644a69970995cea56db9bf99.gif)

Nope, no correlation there, none at all...
People rush to get vaccines when they see their friends and family getting sick.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on February 03, 2022, 10:49:37 AM
Ottawa is considering calling in the military to get rid of the truckers.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/feb/02/truck-convoy-blockade-canada-covid

I wonder if snipers or fuel-air bombs would work better?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: GeekyBugle on February 03, 2022, 11:09:17 AM
Ottawa is considering calling in the military to get rid of the truckers.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/feb/02/truck-convoy-blockade-canada-covid

I wonder if snipers or fuel-air bombs would work better?

If anyone needed proof that the second amendment to the USA constitution must be protected...
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on February 03, 2022, 11:14:56 AM
  I am not going to edit what I said, but I do feel I came off a bit too strong.  Ukraine is NOT my business, is NOT the USA's business.  That is not a wasteland threatening them full of dudes on camels in caves.  If the USA steps even a bit wrong there, it will have consequences you, nor I can even imagine.  I am a bit weary of watching and listening to people who have never been in so much as a fist fight talk a bunch of shit about showing or using force, when the main reason they say stupid shit like that, is they think they will never have to suffer the consequences of such "show of force".  This is a different animal, and it is important to keep in mind, the USA couldnt win against dudes with 40 year old rifles hiding in caves.  Start fighting with Russia on its border is LITERALLY THE WORST MILITARY ERROR IN HISTORY.

To be fair, the Russians also couldn't win against dudes with 40 year old rifles hiding in caves. In fact, the Soviets had many times more killed in half the time in their war against the Afghans. (Soviet deaths were at least 15,000 from 1979 to 1989, while the U.S. lost 2,420 from 2001 to 2021.)

I don't know about worst - but a major military error was "Hey, if we just let the Germans have Poland, they'll stop there. After all, Poland is next to Germany, so it's not our business to intervene."

As for where we have business being and putting our values on the line -- where do you think we do have business? I supported WWII, the Korean War, the Kuwait War, and almost nothing else. I've been to multiple anti-war protests, but when democratic countries are invaded just to conquer them, I think it is the world's business - not just the U.S., but every other country in the world. That is what the world came together to agree on after WWII, that conquest for territory was wrong and would not be tolerated. And I think the world is much better for it.

 So you signed up and went to Iraq during Kuwait?  Or you sat in a comfortable chair and proclaimed your support watching smart bombs on CNN?  USA military business is at the borders, and that is it.  Just as the founding fathers wanted, NO INVOLVEMENT IN FOREIGN ADVENTURES.  You can say the world is better off for the USA getting into foreign adventures, but reality is you do not know (WW2 never happens if the USA is not in WW1, and WW1 is the main reason the PEOPLE (not political elite) wanted zero part of WW2) and I can assure you millions of Iraqis disagree 1000 percent with your endorsement of foreign adventures. 

   The issue I have with pussies pushing for use of force, is they have ZERO understanding of the consequences of when force gets pointed back at them.  The "World" let commies run wild after WW2, and millions upon millions of people died because of it, many more than died during WW2.  So your view of better is more or less speculative bullshit.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: SHARK on February 03, 2022, 11:16:21 AM
Ottawa is considering calling in the military to get rid of the truckers.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/feb/02/truck-convoy-blockade-canada-covid

I wonder if snipers or fuel-air bombs would work better?

Greetings!

GOOD! Let everyone see the Canadian government's TYRANNY on full display. Just more reason for the people to rise up, and break the government down. Crush the government elites.

Fucking Covid tyrants. All these fucking Communists and Global tyrants need to choke on Napalm.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on February 03, 2022, 11:19:29 AM
"The honking will continue until freedom improves."

https://twitter.com/JustEye33/status/1488724824453177350
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: SHARK on February 03, 2022, 11:25:24 AM
Greetings!

Yeah, fuck all the warmongering, war profiteers! People in this country--and especially our fucking political leaders--need to bone the fuck up on what are TRULY American National Interests. The real, vital stuff that demands that we put blood an gold on the line.

America doesn't need to be involved with Ukraine. Let Russia and Ukraine deal with each other. Beyond that, let Poland, and Turkey offer to help with negotiations. Let them fucking solve their own fucking problems.

Let THEM bleed for Ukraine. Let every able bodied man in the nearby countries sign the fuck up to face off with the Russian Army. They aren't hot on doing that? Oh well!

These other countries can figure shit out on their own. America needs to take care of AMERICA. We have plenty of fucking problems right here.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on February 03, 2022, 12:38:31 PM
Depends. That person that didn't get vaxxed takes up an ICU bed that another patient could use.

And a specialist or maybe a whole ward that should be devoted to something else (like Gynaecology or Oncology). Nothing beats to see some specialist for your non-Covid problem at 9PM with them deadly tired.

What I wonder, however, is how people would react if diabetes or not keeping in shape were transmissible conditions. You watch what you eat, you go to the gym, you strive to keep a healthy lifestyle - only for some idiot who doesn't and plays online all day long to go around spreading diabetes. You wake up one morning needing insulin for the rest of your life and 100 lbs. overweight thanks to that idiot. But all is fine because "his body his choice", right?

Personally, no, I don't think that the other dude would survive the mob. But diabetes and unhealthy lifestyles aren't transmissible, as Covid is, so we will never know...
That's just a lovely attempt to rationalize totalitarianism. I know what side you'd be on in the 1930s.

You know, the whole "People who don't view the world like I do should be dismissed as Nazis" isn't cool when the left does it, and isn't cool when you do it either. Humans are complex, you don't have a bead on how people would have behaved under different circumstances based on their beliefs about this one topic, and this whole "I am going to use the tragedy of the holocaust for my own partisan ends" bullshit has got to fucking stop. All it does is diminish the actual Nazi fucks who actually committed mass genocide as equivalent to whatever the hot topic is of the day.

[Edit - and I see others called you out for this same shit. And predictably you deflect and play the victim.]
No, absolutely no one has called me out for that. I responded to someone who, quite hypocritically, tried to call a third person out about it.

After years of people being called Nazis based on nothing whatsoever, you don't get to use "oh noes I'm being called a Nazi" as a shield when someone points out the policies you support literally violate the Nuremberg code. That's a completely fair assessment based on real similarities, not random name calling. And quite predictably, you go on to accuse me of doing what you're doing, not what I'm doing, because you've become completely irrational in pursuit of this vendetta of yours.

"I know what side you'd be on in the 1930s." has nothing to do with the Nuremberg code. You're trying to conflate what others said with what you said, and then again play the victim.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on February 03, 2022, 12:44:56 PM
People rush to get vaccines when they see their friends and family getting sick.

How cute, your cognitive dissonance has the causation the wrong way around.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ghostmaker on February 03, 2022, 01:27:20 PM
Ottawa is considering calling in the military to get rid of the truckers.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/feb/02/truck-convoy-blockade-canada-covid

I wonder if snipers or fuel-air bombs would work better?

Greetings!

GOOD! Let everyone see the Canadian government's TYRANNY on full display. Just more reason for the people to rise up, and break the government down. Crush the government elites.

Fucking Covid tyrants. All these fucking Communists and Global tyrants need to choke on Napalm.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
The correct answer is, 'WHAT military?' Because Trudeau has spent an inordinate amount of time damaging his.

Although I've seen speculation that the Canadian mandarins might try to import troops from the U.S. (wow, that'll end well). Or just call in the Blue Helmets (again, amazingly bad choice).
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Zirunel on February 03, 2022, 01:44:20 PM
Ottawa is considering calling in the military to get rid of the truckers.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/feb/02/truck-convoy-blockade-canada-covid

I wonder if snipers or fuel-air bombs would work better?

"Ottawa" in this case only means the Ottawa chief of police. But whatever straws the police chief may be clutching at,  the federal government position is that military intervention is not in the cards. They didn't call in the military during the indigenous blockades two years ago, and I think it is most unlikely they would do it today.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: jhkim on February 03, 2022, 02:05:43 PM
USA military business is at the borders, and that is it.  Just as the founding fathers wanted, NO INVOLVEMENT IN FOREIGN ADVENTURES.  You can say the world is better off for the USA getting into foreign adventures, but reality is you do not know (WW2 never happens if the USA is not in WW1, and WW1 is the main reason the PEOPLE (not political elite) wanted zero part of WW2) and I can assure you millions of Iraqis disagree 1000 percent with your endorsement of foreign adventures. 

   The issue I have with pussies pushing for use of force, is they have ZERO understanding of the consequences of when force gets pointed back at them.  The "World" let commies run wild after WW2, and millions upon millions of people died because of it, many more than died during WW2.  So your view of better is more or less speculative bullshit.

Sure, it's speculative - but so is your view.

The vast majority of the American public supported involvement in WWII at the time of our entry - it wasn't just the political elite. Even war veterans have tended to think that the war had been worth fighting. The WWII and Korean War veterans that I have met had plenty of gripes about the government, but they didn't regret that the war was fought. Even my German friends agree that America was right to fight against Germany. So among non-pussies who do understand the consequences, they don't generally share your view.

On a personal level, I know I wouldn't be alive if it weren't for the Korean War, and I have many Jewish friends who wouldn't be alive if it weren't for our involvement in WWII.

That said, I'm in agreement with you about most U.S. wars. If the U.S. had only used its military to defend its borders since the founding, the world would certainly be a very different place (especially North America) - and it might be better overall, given the number of unjust wars we have engaged in. But I do still think that Nazis were worth fighting.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on February 03, 2022, 02:31:06 PM
People rush to get vaccines when they see their friends and family getting sick.

How cute, your cognitive dissonance has the causation the wrong way around.
You really have been drinking your own piss, haven't you?

But please, SHOW the causation you speak of and PROVE that the correlation doesn't fit in the direction I've described.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on February 03, 2022, 02:33:07 PM
Ottawa is considering calling in the military to get rid of the truckers.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/feb/02/truck-convoy-blockade-canada-covid

I wonder if snipers or fuel-air bombs would work better?

Greetings!

GOOD! Let everyone see the Canadian government's TYRANNY on full display. Just more reason for the people to rise up, and break the government down. Crush the government elites.

Fucking Covid tyrants. All these fucking Communists and Global tyrants need to choke on Napalm.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
The correct answer is, 'WHAT military?' Because Trudeau has spent an inordinate amount of time damaging his.

Although I've seen speculation that the Canadian mandarins might try to import troops from the U.S. (wow, that'll end well). Or just call in the Blue Helmets (again, amazingly bad choice).
I thought rhat perhaps the "Way of the Leaf" from Wheel of Time might be a jab at Canadians...
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Zirunel on February 03, 2022, 02:44:36 PM
I've seen speculation

Oh well there you go. Is that *solid* speculation? Must be true.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: jhkim on February 03, 2022, 02:51:53 PM
USA military business is at the borders, and that is it.  Just as the founding fathers wanted, NO INVOLVEMENT IN FOREIGN ADVENTURES.  You can say the world is better off for the USA getting into foreign adventures, but reality is you do not know (WW2 never happens if the USA is not in WW1, and WW1 is the main reason the PEOPLE (not political elite) wanted zero part of WW2) and I can assure you millions of Iraqis disagree 1000 percent with your endorsement of foreign adventures.
These other countries can figure shit out on their own. America needs to take care of AMERICA. We have plenty of fucking problems right here.

SHARK, didn't you sign up with the Marines? When did you join? Have your views changed since then to be like oggsmash? Had you joined in any anti-war protests previously?

I've been to anti-war protests for the Iraq invasion and a much smaller one for Yemen. Still, my father is from what is now North Korea. As I said, I wouldn't be alive if it weren't for the Korean War. So I consider that war to have been justified, though still mismanaged.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: GeekyBugle on February 03, 2022, 03:39:34 PM
Ottawa is considering calling in the military to get rid of the truckers.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/feb/02/truck-convoy-blockade-canada-covid

I wonder if snipers or fuel-air bombs would work better?

"Ottawa" in this case only means the Ottawa chief of police. But whatever straws the police chief may be clutching at,  the federal government position is that military intervention is not in the cards. They didn't call in the military during the indigenous blockades two years ago, and I think it is most unlikely they would do it today.

But this time it's not the superior race protesting my dude.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on February 03, 2022, 03:45:14 PM
Depends. That person that didn't get vaxxed takes up an ICU bed that another patient could use.

And a specialist or maybe a whole ward that should be devoted to something else (like Gynaecology or Oncology). Nothing beats to see some specialist for your non-Covid problem at 9PM with them deadly tired.

What I wonder, however, is how people would react if diabetes or not keeping in shape were transmissible conditions. You watch what you eat, you go to the gym, you strive to keep a healthy lifestyle - only for some idiot who doesn't and plays online all day long to go around spreading diabetes. You wake up one morning needing insulin for the rest of your life and 100 lbs. overweight thanks to that idiot. But all is fine because "his body his choice", right?

Personally, no, I don't think that the other dude would survive the mob. But diabetes and unhealthy lifestyles aren't transmissible, as Covid is, so we will never know...
That's just a lovely attempt to rationalize totalitarianism. I know what side you'd be on in the 1930s.

You know, the whole "People who don't view the world like I do should be dismissed as Nazis" isn't cool when the left does it, and isn't cool when you do it either. Humans are complex, you don't have a bead on how people would have behaved under different circumstances based on their beliefs about this one topic, and this whole "I am going to use the tragedy of the holocaust for my own partisan ends" bullshit has got to fucking stop. All it does is diminish the actual Nazi fucks who actually committed mass genocide as equivalent to whatever the hot topic is of the day.

[Edit - and I see others called you out for this same shit. And predictably you deflect and play the victim.]
No, absolutely no one has called me out for that. I responded to someone who, quite hypocritically, tried to call a third person out about it.

After years of people being called Nazis based on nothing whatsoever, you don't get to use "oh noes I'm being called a Nazi" as a shield when someone points out the policies you support literally violate the Nuremberg code. That's a completely fair assessment based on real similarities, not random name calling. And quite predictably, you go on to accuse me of doing what you're doing, not what I'm doing, because you've become completely irrational in pursuit of this vendetta of yours.

"I know what side you'd be on in the 1930s." has nothing to do with the Nuremberg code. You're trying to conflate what others said with what you said, and then again play the victim.
It's literally right there in the quote chain. Advocating for medical procedures without uncoerced, informed consent is a violation of the Nuremberg code.

And where's your groveling apology for your erroneous claim that I was called out? Last time I made an minor error (misreading a year), I acknowledged it, and that wasn't enough. You jumped on it and demanded I abase myself in shame. Yet you've made a far more significant error here, and... silence. You haven't even acknowledged it. Hypocrisy, thy name is Mistwell.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: SHARK on February 03, 2022, 05:36:11 PM
USA military business is at the borders, and that is it.  Just as the founding fathers wanted, NO INVOLVEMENT IN FOREIGN ADVENTURES.  You can say the world is better off for the USA getting into foreign adventures, but reality is you do not know (WW2 never happens if the USA is not in WW1, and WW1 is the main reason the PEOPLE (not political elite) wanted zero part of WW2) and I can assure you millions of Iraqis disagree 1000 percent with your endorsement of foreign adventures.
These other countries can figure shit out on their own. America needs to take care of AMERICA. We have plenty of fucking problems right here.

SHARK, didn't you sign up with the Marines? When did you join? Have your views changed since then to be like oggsmash? Had you joined in any anti-war protests previously?

I've been to anti-war protests for the Iraq invasion and a much smaller one for Yemen. Still, my father is from what is now North Korea. As I said, I wouldn't be alive if it weren't for the Korean War. So I consider that war to have been justified, though still mismanaged.

Greetings!

Yes, Jhkim, you damned right I am a veteran of the United States Marine Corps. No, I haven't attended any "Anti-War" Protests. My views on American foreign policy have changed--somewhat--since I was on active duty, but not much. Now, I'm less hawkish, and more reserved. (Yeah, less Hawkish. You are probably surprised by that; but nonetheless, I am). I think it comes with parts of experience, age, and education. Perhaps just the wisdom of age to pause and consider things a bit more deeply than when in the rush and fury of youth.

I am definitely more jaded and suspicious of the feeral government, of their justifications, of their whole ideology about war. See, in the Marines, (and I suspect it's the same or my brother veterans from other branches)--it's all about defending America, standing against tyranny, and just saying fuck it and putting our boot wherever we like, 'cause we are the biggest fucking dog on the block.

It's not so much considering war-profiteering, investments for Arms companies, cookies for Senators and Congressmen, lobbying gigs, and all this other bullshit. As an older adult and citizen--I'm much more aware ofall those kinds of considerations, now, than when I was younger. I'm more refelctive on the wisdom passed down to us by our Forefathers. I'm also historically literate enough to recall that some of the same issues wedeal with today--have long been present, tovarying degrees. Our Forefathers were no strangers tocompanies and war profiteering, corruption, bigbusiness an banks getting sweet fucking payoffs in profits for war--they had all that back then, too. That's why they warned all of us about it, and advised minding our own business and being circumspect in getting involved with foreign entanglements.

I also get emotional, because it's more personal, now. I don't want our boys getting their fucking guts blown out so some fat rich fuck in Washington gets an extra big quarterly investment bonus!

FUCK THAT!!!!

The media mahine is well-equipped to fog your fucking mind with all kinds of half-truths to conceal the deeper motive, so you will rush into the fire, to fight and die.

I'm a lot more watchful for shit like that, now.

Pack all the rah-rah "Save Democracy!" bullshit for storytime to the kiddies. After spending 20 years fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan, some of these other countries can put THEIR ASSES IN THE FIRE to "Save Democracy!" Unless the fucking Russians are building bases in Mexico, or they are invading Britain, or they are invading us here in America, we need to mind our own business.

I'm not interested in "Saving Democracy" around the world. Have you noticed that we have lots of problems here, in America? That we hav huge problems with crime, the roads, shitty schools, a blasted, weak, shitty economy; a 30-Trillion Federal Debt; cock-sucking Vaccine Tyrants; waves of violent nutjobs killing people for nothing; hundreds of thousands of ILLEGAL ALIENS pouring into our country from the Southern border;
An evil, corrupt federal government; lots of corrupt local governments; wall street and investment problems; Rising costs and inflation; and, a weak, feminized military.

This country is in no position to be getting involved in a war fighting over a fucking Outhouse, let alone fighting the Russians in goddamned Ukraine.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Zirunel on February 03, 2022, 06:19:27 PM
Ottawa is considering calling in the military to get rid of the truckers.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/feb/02/truck-convoy-blockade-canada-covid

I wonder if snipers or fuel-air bombs would work better?

"Ottawa" in this case only means the Ottawa chief of police. But whatever straws the police chief may be clutching at,  the federal government position is that military intervention is not in the cards. They didn't call in the military during the indigenous blockades two years ago, and I think it is most unlikely they would do it today.

But this time it's not the superior race protesting my dude.

Superior what? What?

Anyway, the Feds specifically cite the precedent: "We didn't do it then, we don't want to do it now."

And the deeper context might not be familiar to others elsewhere but the military option is toxic in Canada and  doubly so for a prime minister named  Trudeau. Because... War Measures Act. That worked so well last time, when Justin's dad invoked it. Right?

 Things can change, we'll see how it plays out but my money is on no military option.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: GeekyBugle on February 03, 2022, 06:20:49 PM
USA military business is at the borders, and that is it.  Just as the founding fathers wanted, NO INVOLVEMENT IN FOREIGN ADVENTURES.  You can say the world is better off for the USA getting into foreign adventures, but reality is you do not know (WW2 never happens if the USA is not in WW1, and WW1 is the main reason the PEOPLE (not political elite) wanted zero part of WW2) and I can assure you millions of Iraqis disagree 1000 percent with your endorsement of foreign adventures.
These other countries can figure shit out on their own. America needs to take care of AMERICA. We have plenty of fucking problems right here.

SHARK, didn't you sign up with the Marines? When did you join? Have your views changed since then to be like oggsmash? Had you joined in any anti-war protests previously?

I've been to anti-war protests for the Iraq invasion and a much smaller one for Yemen. Still, my father is from what is now North Korea. As I said, I wouldn't be alive if it weren't for the Korean War. So I consider that war to have been justified, though still mismanaged.

Greetings!

Yes, Jhkim, you damned right I am a veteran of the United States Marine Corps. No, I haven't attended any "Anti-War" Protests. My views on American foreign policy have changed--somewhat--since I was on active duty, but not much. Now, I'm less hawkish, and more reserved. (Yeah, less Hawkish. You are probably surprised by that; but nonetheless, I am). I think it comes with parts of experience, age, and education. Perhaps just the wisdom of age to pause and consider things a bit more deeply than when in the rush and fury of youth.

I am definitely more jaded and suspicious of the feeral government, of their justifications, of their whole ideology about war. See, in the Marines, (and I suspect it's the same or my brother veterans from other branches)--it's all about defending America, standing against tyranny, and just saying fuck it and putting our boot wherever we like, 'cause we are the biggest fucking dog on the block.

It's not so much considering war-profiteering, investments for Arms companies, cookies for Senators and Congressmen, lobbying gigs, and all this other bullshit. As an older adult and citizen--I'm much more aware ofall those kinds of considerations, now, than when I was younger. I'm more refelctive on the wisdom passed down to us by our Forefathers. I'm also historically literate enough to recall that some of the same issues wedeal with today--have long been present, tovarying degrees. Our Forefathers were no strangers tocompanies and war profiteering, corruption, bigbusiness an banks getting sweet fucking payoffs in profits for war--they had all that back then, too. That's why they warned all of us about it, and advised minding our own business and being circumspect in getting involved with foreign entanglements.

I also get emotional, because it's more personal, now. I don't want our boys getting their fucking guts blown out so some fat rich fuck in Washington gets an extra big quarterly investment bonus!

FUCK THAT!!!!

The media mahine is well-equipped to fog your fucking mind with all kinds of half-truths to conceal the deeper motive, so you will rush into the fire, to fight and die.

I'm a lot more watchful for shit like that, now.

Pack all the rah-rah "Save Democracy!" bullshit for storytime to the kiddies. After spending 20 years fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan, some of these other countries can put THEIR ASSES IN THE FIRE to "Save Democracy!" Unless the fucking Russians are building bases in Mexico, or they are invading Britain, or they are invading us here in America, we need to mind our own business.

I'm not interested in "Saving Democracy" around the world. Have you noticed that we have lots of problems here, in America? That we hav huge problems with crime, the roads, shitty schools, a blasted, weak, shitty economy; a 30-Trillion Federal Debt; cock-sucking Vaccine Tyrants; waves of violent nutjobs killing people for nothing; hundreds of thousands of ILLEGAL ALIENS pouring into our country from the Southern border;
An evil, corrupt federal government; lots of corrupt local governments; wall street and investment problems; Rising costs and inflation; and, a weak, feminized military.

This country is in no position to be getting involved in a war fighting over a fucking Outhouse, let alone fighting the Russians in goddamned Ukraine.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Well said brother!

IMHO US citizens taxes would be best spent (and require a lot less of) by squashing the druglords/human traffickers here in México.

Something the average US citizen is being directly impacted by, either drugs flooding their streets or illegals draging the wages down.

Hell, Trump proved that by threatening our El Presidente our southern border CAN be closed. Something the vast majority of Mexicans agree with.

Do any of you trully believe the US law enforcement can't find the druglords? Find the top dog, kill him, then kill the second in command and keep killing whoever steps up to take the title.

Do it to ALL cartels, You'll soon see the ammount of drugs crossing your border diminish. First you find their bank accounts, confiscate the money, I bet the US could pay for getting rid of the cartels just by taking their money.

But neither your government nor mine want to end the cartels, because both get their wheels greased by them.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: SHARK on February 03, 2022, 08:20:09 PM
USA military business is at the borders, and that is it.  Just as the founding fathers wanted, NO INVOLVEMENT IN FOREIGN ADVENTURES.  You can say the world is better off for the USA getting into foreign adventures, but reality is you do not know (WW2 never happens if the USA is not in WW1, and WW1 is the main reason the PEOPLE (not political elite) wanted zero part of WW2) and I can assure you millions of Iraqis disagree 1000 percent with your endorsement of foreign adventures.
These other countries can figure shit out on their own. America needs to take care of AMERICA. We have plenty of fucking problems right here.

SHARK, didn't you sign up with the Marines? When did you join? Have your views changed since then to be like oggsmash? Had you joined in any anti-war protests previously?

I've been to anti-war protests for the Iraq invasion and a much smaller one for Yemen. Still, my father is from what is now North Korea. As I said, I wouldn't be alive if it weren't for the Korean War. So I consider that war to have been justified, though still mismanaged.

Greetings!

Yes, Jhkim, you damned right I am a veteran of the United States Marine Corps. No, I haven't attended any "Anti-War" Protests. My views on American foreign policy have changed--somewhat--since I was on active duty, but not much. Now, I'm less hawkish, and more reserved. (Yeah, less Hawkish. You are probably surprised by that; but nonetheless, I am). I think it comes with parts of experience, age, and education. Perhaps just the wisdom of age to pause and consider things a bit more deeply than when in the rush and fury of youth.

I am definitely more jaded and suspicious of the feeral government, of their justifications, of their whole ideology about war. See, in the Marines, (and I suspect it's the same or my brother veterans from other branches)--it's all about defending America, standing against tyranny, and just saying fuck it and putting our boot wherever we like, 'cause we are the biggest fucking dog on the block.

It's not so much considering war-profiteering, investments for Arms companies, cookies for Senators and Congressmen, lobbying gigs, and all this other bullshit. As an older adult and citizen--I'm much more aware ofall those kinds of considerations, now, than when I was younger. I'm more refelctive on the wisdom passed down to us by our Forefathers. I'm also historically literate enough to recall that some of the same issues wedeal with today--have long been present, tovarying degrees. Our Forefathers were no strangers tocompanies and war profiteering, corruption, bigbusiness an banks getting sweet fucking payoffs in profits for war--they had all that back then, too. That's why they warned all of us about it, and advised minding our own business and being circumspect in getting involved with foreign entanglements.

I also get emotional, because it's more personal, now. I don't want our boys getting their fucking guts blown out so some fat rich fuck in Washington gets an extra big quarterly investment bonus!

FUCK THAT!!!!

The media mahine is well-equipped to fog your fucking mind with all kinds of half-truths to conceal the deeper motive, so you will rush into the fire, to fight and die.

I'm a lot more watchful for shit like that, now.

Pack all the rah-rah "Save Democracy!" bullshit for storytime to the kiddies. After spending 20 years fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan, some of these other countries can put THEIR ASSES IN THE FIRE to "Save Democracy!" Unless the fucking Russians are building bases in Mexico, or they are invading Britain, or they are invading us here in America, we need to mind our own business.

I'm not interested in "Saving Democracy" around the world. Have you noticed that we have lots of problems here, in America? That we hav huge problems with crime, the roads, shitty schools, a blasted, weak, shitty economy; a 30-Trillion Federal Debt; cock-sucking Vaccine Tyrants; waves of violent nutjobs killing people for nothing; hundreds of thousands of ILLEGAL ALIENS pouring into our country from the Southern border;
An evil, corrupt federal government; lots of corrupt local governments; wall street and investment problems; Rising costs and inflation; and, a weak, feminized military.

This country is in no position to be getting involved in a war fighting over a fucking Outhouse, let alone fighting the Russians in goddamned Ukraine.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Well said brother!

IMHO US citizens taxes would be best spent (and require a lot less of) by squashing the druglords/human traffickers here in México.

Something the average US citizen is being directly impacted by, either drugs flooding their streets or illegals draging the wages down.

Hell, Trump proved that by threatening our El Presidente our southern border CAN be closed. Something the vast majority of Mexicans agree with.

Do any of you trully believe the US law enforcement can't find the druglords? Find the top dog, kill him, then kill the second in command and keep killing whoever steps up to take the title.

Do it to ALL cartels, You'll soon see the ammount of drugs crossing your border diminish. First you find their bank accounts, confiscate the money, I bet the US could pay for getting rid of the cartels just by taking their money.

But neither your government nor mine want to end the cartels, because both get their wheels greased by them.

Greetings!

Thank you, my brother! Excellent! Yeah, I loved it when President Trump offered to send US forces to Mexico, to help fight the cartels. Your president said thanks, but no thanks. *Shruggs* Sad, I think. Talk about genuine US strategic interests? Mexico is like our little sister, and our friend, and crucial to our security. All the drugs, chaos, and mayhem going on down there? THAT"S a humanitarian crisis, and a real one. Real people. Real familia. How many Americans have familia in Mexico? Yeah. MILLIONS. A happy, safe, and prosperous Mexico is damn right our fucking business.

But, what do you do? We can't force you, really. Like you said though, the fucking corruption keeps it from happening. America helping Mexico would be a genuine interest though, and righteous. Not sending troops there to hurt you, but to genuinely help you, and help provide safety and security, so that all of Mexico can be happy and prosperous. That is an expedition I would fully support. It breaks my heart when I read about graves of hundreds of Mexican women found, that have all been murdered by the cartels. Innocent people everywhere kidnapped, and murdered. Meanwhile, the Mexican government just stands there and strokes themselves.

ARRRGGHHHH!!!

But yes, our politicians need to understand what our true national security interests are, and not just exercises in money laundering and gaining profits. Ukraine is not a vital American interest, and certainly is not a situation that warrants putting hundreds of thousands--or millions--of American lives on the fucking line going into the meatgrinder with the Russian Army.

Sorry. They need to unfuck their own problems over there.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: GeekyBugle on February 03, 2022, 09:05:37 PM
USA military business is at the borders, and that is it.  Just as the founding fathers wanted, NO INVOLVEMENT IN FOREIGN ADVENTURES.  You can say the world is better off for the USA getting into foreign adventures, but reality is you do not know (WW2 never happens if the USA is not in WW1, and WW1 is the main reason the PEOPLE (not political elite) wanted zero part of WW2) and I can assure you millions of Iraqis disagree 1000 percent with your endorsement of foreign adventures.
These other countries can figure shit out on their own. America needs to take care of AMERICA. We have plenty of fucking problems right here.

SHARK, didn't you sign up with the Marines? When did you join? Have your views changed since then to be like oggsmash? Had you joined in any anti-war protests previously?

I've been to anti-war protests for the Iraq invasion and a much smaller one for Yemen. Still, my father is from what is now North Korea. As I said, I wouldn't be alive if it weren't for the Korean War. So I consider that war to have been justified, though still mismanaged.

Greetings!

Yes, Jhkim, you damned right I am a veteran of the United States Marine Corps. No, I haven't attended any "Anti-War" Protests. My views on American foreign policy have changed--somewhat--since I was on active duty, but not much. Now, I'm less hawkish, and more reserved. (Yeah, less Hawkish. You are probably surprised by that; but nonetheless, I am). I think it comes with parts of experience, age, and education. Perhaps just the wisdom of age to pause and consider things a bit more deeply than when in the rush and fury of youth.

I am definitely more jaded and suspicious of the feeral government, of their justifications, of their whole ideology about war. See, in the Marines, (and I suspect it's the same or my brother veterans from other branches)--it's all about defending America, standing against tyranny, and just saying fuck it and putting our boot wherever we like, 'cause we are the biggest fucking dog on the block.

It's not so much considering war-profiteering, investments for Arms companies, cookies for Senators and Congressmen, lobbying gigs, and all this other bullshit. As an older adult and citizen--I'm much more aware ofall those kinds of considerations, now, than when I was younger. I'm more refelctive on the wisdom passed down to us by our Forefathers. I'm also historically literate enough to recall that some of the same issues wedeal with today--have long been present, tovarying degrees. Our Forefathers were no strangers tocompanies and war profiteering, corruption, bigbusiness an banks getting sweet fucking payoffs in profits for war--they had all that back then, too. That's why they warned all of us about it, and advised minding our own business and being circumspect in getting involved with foreign entanglements.

I also get emotional, because it's more personal, now. I don't want our boys getting their fucking guts blown out so some fat rich fuck in Washington gets an extra big quarterly investment bonus!

FUCK THAT!!!!

The media mahine is well-equipped to fog your fucking mind with all kinds of half-truths to conceal the deeper motive, so you will rush into the fire, to fight and die.

I'm a lot more watchful for shit like that, now.

Pack all the rah-rah "Save Democracy!" bullshit for storytime to the kiddies. After spending 20 years fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan, some of these other countries can put THEIR ASSES IN THE FIRE to "Save Democracy!" Unless the fucking Russians are building bases in Mexico, or they are invading Britain, or they are invading us here in America, we need to mind our own business.

I'm not interested in "Saving Democracy" around the world. Have you noticed that we have lots of problems here, in America? That we hav huge problems with crime, the roads, shitty schools, a blasted, weak, shitty economy; a 30-Trillion Federal Debt; cock-sucking Vaccine Tyrants; waves of violent nutjobs killing people for nothing; hundreds of thousands of ILLEGAL ALIENS pouring into our country from the Southern border;
An evil, corrupt federal government; lots of corrupt local governments; wall street and investment problems; Rising costs and inflation; and, a weak, feminized military.

This country is in no position to be getting involved in a war fighting over a fucking Outhouse, let alone fighting the Russians in goddamned Ukraine.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Well said brother!

IMHO US citizens taxes would be best spent (and require a lot less of) by squashing the druglords/human traffickers here in México.

Something the average US citizen is being directly impacted by, either drugs flooding their streets or illegals draging the wages down.

Hell, Trump proved that by threatening our El Presidente our southern border CAN be closed. Something the vast majority of Mexicans agree with.

Do any of you trully believe the US law enforcement can't find the druglords? Find the top dog, kill him, then kill the second in command and keep killing whoever steps up to take the title.

Do it to ALL cartels, You'll soon see the ammount of drugs crossing your border diminish. First you find their bank accounts, confiscate the money, I bet the US could pay for getting rid of the cartels just by taking their money.

But neither your government nor mine want to end the cartels, because both get their wheels greased by them.

Greetings!

Thank you, my brother! Excellent! Yeah, I loved it when President Trump offered to send US forces to Mexico, to help fight the cartels. Your president said thanks, but no thanks. *Shruggs* Sad, I think. Talk about genuine US strategic interests? Mexico is like our little sister, and our friend, and crucial to our security. All the drugs, chaos, and mayhem going on down there? THAT"S a humanitarian crisis, and a real one. Real people. Real familia. How many Americans have familia in Mexico? Yeah. MILLIONS. A happy, safe, and prosperous Mexico is damn right our fucking business.

But, what do you do? We can't force you, really. Like you said though, the fucking corruption keeps it from happening. America helping Mexico would be a genuine interest though, and righteous. Not sending troops there to hurt you, but to genuinely help you, and help provide safety and security, so that all of Mexico can be happy and prosperous. That is an expedition I would fully support. It breaks my heart when I read about graves of hundreds of Mexican women found, that have all been murdered by the cartels. Innocent people everywhere kidnapped, and murdered. Meanwhile, the Mexican government just stands there and strokes themselves.

ARRRGGHHHH!!!

But yes, our politicians need to understand what our true national security interests are, and not just exercises in money laundering and gaining profits. Ukraine is not a vital American interest, and certainly is not a situation that warrants putting hundreds of thousands--or millions--of American lives on the fucking line going into the meatgrinder with the Russian Army.

Sorry. They need to unfuck their own problems over there.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Wrong hermano, the Mexican government doesn't just stand there stroking itself, they get a cut of the drugs, human trafficking and the money it produces.

Didin't you read about the Governor of Puebla? Not the current one, he was in cahoots with the human trafficking pedos, a journalist, a fucking real journalist exposed an "industrialist" as part of the gangs and the governor intimidated her (and worst) to try and squash the news.

But that woman has more balls than anyone in this country, she didn't back down.

And it's not only in México, look at the UK, the grooming gangs there, what has the government done? Incarcerate the victims some times. And in the USA? Remember the Clinton foundation link to the pedo operation in Haiti? Remember Epstein? Why was the black book censored and deemed not of public interest?

Exactly.

If Trump runs again (I half hope he does) he needs to fire all the deep state as soon as he gets the office. If he doesn't then that's evidence he's controlled opposition.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Timothe on February 04, 2022, 04:55:56 AM
Churchill slept peacefully after he purposefully let German U-boats sink the Lusitania, which drew America into the war.
Except Churchill wasn't prime minister, and that was World War 1.

I was making a point that he slept peacefully twice in anticipation of getting Americans killed. Anyway, this attitude of yours is pathetic and I didn’t come here for that.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ghostmaker on February 04, 2022, 08:03:20 AM
Churchill slept peacefully after he purposefully let German U-boats sink the Lusitania, which drew America into the war.
Except Churchill wasn't prime minister, and that was World War 1.

I was making a point that he slept peacefully twice in anticipation of getting Americans killed. Anyway, this attitude of yours is pathetic and I didn’t come here for that.
And you're a retard, but I don't come here for that either. Get fucked.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ghostmaker on February 04, 2022, 08:15:20 AM
If Trump runs again (I half hope he does) he needs to fire all the deep state as soon as he gets the office. If he doesn't then that's evidence he's controlled opposition.
Hence the big push to remove Trump as a possible contender as soon as possible by flinging as much mud at him in the hope something sticks.

I suspect he's NOT controlled opposition. In fact, he's completely uncontrolled and that's why the Beltway is scared shitless of him.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on February 04, 2022, 08:49:17 AM
You really have been drinking your own piss, haven't you?

But please, SHOW the causation you speak of and PROVE that the correlation doesn't fit in the direction I've described.

Also Israel (which is further ahead on the jabbination carousel than anywhere else): https://www.israelnationalnews.com/news/321674

Quote
'80% of serious COVID cases are fully vaccinated*' says Ichilov hospital director. Vaccine has "no significance regarding severe illness," says Prof. Yaakov Jerris.

*Which means three or four jabs. Does this show that it's working? So much for "reduces serious symptoms"...

How much of a tool are you going to feel when you realise you subjected yourself to experimentation for no reason whatsoever?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: GeekyBugle on February 04, 2022, 10:29:24 AM
You really have been drinking your own piss, haven't you?

But please, SHOW the causation you speak of and PROVE that the correlation doesn't fit in the direction I've described.

Also Israel (which is further ahead on the jabbination carousel than anywhere else): https://www.israelnationalnews.com/news/321674

Quote
'80% of serious COVID cases are fully vaccinated*' says Ichilov hospital director. Vaccine has "no significance regarding severe illness," says Prof. Yaakov Jerris.

*Which means three or four jabs. Does this show that it's working? So much for "reduces serious symptoms"...

How much of a tool are you going to feel when you realise you subjected yourself to experimentation for no reason whatsoever?

We only need for people to get the fifth jab...
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: jhkim on February 04, 2022, 12:59:08 PM
My views on American foreign policy have changed--somewhat--since I was on active duty, but not much. Now, I'm less hawkish, and more reserved. (Yeah, less Hawkish. You are probably surprised by that; but nonetheless, I am). I think it comes with parts of experience, age, and education. Perhaps just the wisdom of age to pause and consider things a bit more deeply than when in the rush and fury of youth.

I am definitely more jaded and suspicious of the feeral government, of their justifications, of their whole ideology about war. See, in the Marines, (and I suspect it's the same or my brother veterans from other branches)--it's all about defending America, standing against tyranny, and just saying fuck it and putting our boot wherever we like, 'cause we are the biggest fucking dog on the block.

It's not so much considering war-profiteering, investments for Arms companies, cookies for Senators and Congressmen, lobbying gigs, and all this other bullshit. As an older adult and citizen--I'm much more aware of all those kinds of considerations, now, than when I was younger.

That's cool. On this one point, at least, it seems like our views are coming closer. I grew up aware of war-profiteering and arms company investments, so that's long been a part of my consideration. In the past, conservatives would attack me for complaining about those. So I'm glad to hear we are closer to agreement on that.

On the other hand, do you agree with oggsmash that we were wrong to fight the Nazis? I would agree that there was war profiteering during WWII, but I think the other reasons for fighting outweighed that. You did say that you still approve of "standing against tyranny" - and I think WWII did do that.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ghostmaker on February 04, 2022, 01:36:30 PM
My views on American foreign policy have changed--somewhat--since I was on active duty, but not much. Now, I'm less hawkish, and more reserved. (Yeah, less Hawkish. You are probably surprised by that; but nonetheless, I am). I think it comes with parts of experience, age, and education. Perhaps just the wisdom of age to pause and consider things a bit more deeply than when in the rush and fury of youth.

I am definitely more jaded and suspicious of the feeral government, of their justifications, of their whole ideology about war. See, in the Marines, (and I suspect it's the same or my brother veterans from other branches)--it's all about defending America, standing against tyranny, and just saying fuck it and putting our boot wherever we like, 'cause we are the biggest fucking dog on the block.

It's not so much considering war-profiteering, investments for Arms companies, cookies for Senators and Congressmen, lobbying gigs, and all this other bullshit. As an older adult and citizen--I'm much more aware of all those kinds of considerations, now, than when I was younger.

That's cool. On this one point, at least, it seems like our views are coming closer. I grew up aware of war-profiteering and arms company investments, so that's long been a part of my consideration. In the past, conservatives would attack me for complaining about those. So I'm glad to hear we are closer to agreement on that.

On the other hand, do you agree with oggsmash that we were wrong to fight the Nazis? I would agree that there was war profiteering during WWII, but I think the other reasons for fighting outweighed that. You did say that you still approve of "standing against tyranny" - and I think WWII did do that.
At some point, the piper must be paid. We do not have infinite resources to act as the world's policeman.

What's more, I hear a lot about 'standing against the tyranny' of the Nazis, but standing against the tyranny of communism? Not so much.

Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Shasarak on February 04, 2022, 02:57:25 PM
I hear a lot of virtue signalling coming from people who live in countries that came in late to fight the Nazis.

I mean, better late then never but sheesh.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: SHARK on February 04, 2022, 03:25:56 PM
My views on American foreign policy have changed--somewhat--since I was on active duty, but not much. Now, I'm less hawkish, and more reserved. (Yeah, less Hawkish. You are probably surprised by that; but nonetheless, I am). I think it comes with parts of experience, age, and education. Perhaps just the wisdom of age to pause and consider things a bit more deeply than when in the rush and fury of youth.

I am definitely more jaded and suspicious of the feeral government, of their justifications, of their whole ideology about war. See, in the Marines, (and I suspect it's the same or my brother veterans from other branches)--it's all about defending America, standing against tyranny, and just saying fuck it and putting our boot wherever we like, 'cause we are the biggest fucking dog on the block.

It's not so much considering war-profiteering, investments for Arms companies, cookies for Senators and Congressmen, lobbying gigs, and all this other bullshit. As an older adult and citizen--I'm much more aware of all those kinds of considerations, now, than when I was younger.

That's cool. On this one point, at least, it seems like our views are coming closer. I grew up aware of war-profiteering and arms company investments, so that's long been a part of my consideration. In the past, conservatives would attack me for complaining about those. So I'm glad to hear we are closer to agreement on that.

On the other hand, do you agree with oggsmash that we were wrong to fight the Nazis? I would agree that there was war profiteering during WWII, but I think the other reasons for fighting outweighed that. You did say that you still approve of "standing against tyranny" - and I think WWII did do that.

Greetings!

Yes, o course it was righteous for America and the Allies to fucking crush Nazi Germany and the Japanese Empire in World War II.

Nazi Germany and the Japanese Empire STARTED THE FUCKING WAR BY INVADING PEOPLE.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: SHARK on February 04, 2022, 03:28:35 PM
My views on American foreign policy have changed--somewhat--since I was on active duty, but not much. Now, I'm less hawkish, and more reserved. (Yeah, less Hawkish. You are probably surprised by that; but nonetheless, I am). I think it comes with parts of experience, age, and education. Perhaps just the wisdom of age to pause and consider things a bit more deeply than when in the rush and fury of youth.

I am definitely more jaded and suspicious of the feeral government, of their justifications, of their whole ideology about war. See, in the Marines, (and I suspect it's the same or my brother veterans from other branches)--it's all about defending America, standing against tyranny, and just saying fuck it and putting our boot wherever we like, 'cause we are the biggest fucking dog on the block.

It's not so much considering war-profiteering, investments for Arms companies, cookies for Senators and Congressmen, lobbying gigs, and all this other bullshit. As an older adult and citizen--I'm much more aware of all those kinds of considerations, now, than when I was younger.

That's cool. On this one point, at least, it seems like our views are coming closer. I grew up aware of war-profiteering and arms company investments, so that's long been a part of my consideration. In the past, conservatives would attack me for complaining about those. So I'm glad to hear we are closer to agreement on that.

On the other hand, do you agree with oggsmash that we were wrong to fight the Nazis? I would agree that there was war profiteering during WWII, but I think the other reasons for fighting outweighed that. You did say that you still approve of "standing against tyranny" - and I think WWII did do that.
At some point, the piper must be paid. We do not have infinite resources to act as the world's policeman.

What's more, I hear a lot about 'standing against the tyranny' of the Nazis, but standing against the tyranny of communism? Not so much.

Greetings!

Yeah, my friend! Fuck the Nazis! The Nazis have been defeated or 75 years now.

How abut the fucking Communists? How about the fucking Communists trying to overthrow our country RIGHT FUCKING NOW?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ratman_tf on February 04, 2022, 03:29:07 PM
What's more, I hear a lot about 'standing against the tyranny' of the Nazis, but standing against the tyranny of communism? Not so much.

Hitler literally killed himself, and the whole Nazi party went down the tubes. He quit. (He was likely going to get shot anyway, but still.)

The commies were smarter. They didn't give up. They kept at it. Changing their tactics and approaches.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: jhkim on February 04, 2022, 03:40:36 PM
That's cool. On this one point, at least, it seems like our views are coming closer. I grew up aware of war-profiteering and arms company investments, so that's long been a part of my consideration. In the past, conservatives would attack me for complaining about those. So I'm glad to hear we are closer to agreement on that.

On the other hand, do you agree with oggsmash that we were wrong to fight the Nazis? I would agree that there was war profiteering during WWII, but I think the other reasons for fighting outweighed that. You did say that you still approve of "standing against tyranny" - and I think WWII did do that.
At some point, the piper must be paid. We do not have infinite resources to act as the world's policeman.

What's more, I hear a lot about 'standing against the tyranny' of the Nazis, but standing against the tyranny of communism? Not so much.

In all my recent posts, I have referred to the Korean War as an example of a justified war - which is a stand against the tyranny of communism. Since my father was born and grew up in what is now North Korea, I'm very aware of that. Did you miss that, or are you discounting it for some reason? I've also discussed the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan as an example of tyranny that we should have and did oppose - though we did it poorly by funding Osama Bin Laden and other mujahideen. Again, that's communist tyranny.

Again - my examples of wars I think justified are WWII, the Korean War, and the Kuwait War. While these were expensive - the problem of cost in modern times is primarily from constant intervention in civil wars and attempts at regime change - like Panama, Somalia, Bosnia, Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Libya, and Yemen.

When there is a one-sided military invasion where one side outright invades another to conquer - that is wrong, and a clear justification to intervene to restore order.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ghostmaker on February 04, 2022, 04:06:35 PM
That's cool. On this one point, at least, it seems like our views are coming closer. I grew up aware of war-profiteering and arms company investments, so that's long been a part of my consideration. In the past, conservatives would attack me for complaining about those. So I'm glad to hear we are closer to agreement on that.

On the other hand, do you agree with oggsmash that we were wrong to fight the Nazis? I would agree that there was war profiteering during WWII, but I think the other reasons for fighting outweighed that. You did say that you still approve of "standing against tyranny" - and I think WWII did do that.
At some point, the piper must be paid. We do not have infinite resources to act as the world's policeman.

What's more, I hear a lot about 'standing against the tyranny' of the Nazis, but standing against the tyranny of communism? Not so much.

In all my recent posts, I have referred to the Korean War as an example of a justified war - which is a stand against the tyranny of communism. Since my father was born and grew up in what is now North Korea, I'm very aware of that. Did you miss that, or are you discounting it for some reason? I've also discussed the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan as an example of tyranny that we should have and did oppose - though we did it poorly by funding Osama Bin Laden and other mujahideen. Again, that's communist tyranny.

Again - my examples of wars I think justified are WWII, the Korean War, and the Kuwait War. While these were expensive - the problem of cost in modern times is primarily from constant intervention in civil wars and attempts at regime change - like Panama, Somalia, Bosnia, Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Libya, and Yemen.

When there is a one-sided military invasion where one side outright invades another to conquer - that is wrong, and a clear justification to intervene to restore order.
Again: who pays for this Pax Americana?

Because I got news for you, WE are the ones who have been paying. In blood, cash, and toil.

Welcome to the new world. Where American arms and men will no longer be available to hide behind.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: GeekyBugle on February 04, 2022, 04:20:31 PM
That's cool. On this one point, at least, it seems like our views are coming closer. I grew up aware of war-profiteering and arms company investments, so that's long been a part of my consideration. In the past, conservatives would attack me for complaining about those. So I'm glad to hear we are closer to agreement on that.

On the other hand, do you agree with oggsmash that we were wrong to fight the Nazis? I would agree that there was war profiteering during WWII, but I think the other reasons for fighting outweighed that. You did say that you still approve of "standing against tyranny" - and I think WWII did do that.
At some point, the piper must be paid. We do not have infinite resources to act as the world's policeman.

What's more, I hear a lot about 'standing against the tyranny' of the Nazis, but standing against the tyranny of communism? Not so much.

In all my recent posts, I have referred to the Korean War as an example of a justified war - which is a stand against the tyranny of communism. Since my father was born and grew up in what is now North Korea, I'm very aware of that. Did you miss that, or are you discounting it for some reason? I've also discussed the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan as an example of tyranny that we should have and did oppose - though we did it poorly by funding Osama Bin Laden and other mujahideen. Again, that's communist tyranny.

Again - my examples of wars I think justified are WWII, the Korean War, and the Kuwait War. While these were expensive - the problem of cost in modern times is primarily from constant intervention in civil wars and attempts at regime change - like Panama, Somalia, Bosnia, Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Libya, and Yemen.

When there is a one-sided military invasion where one side outright invades another to conquer - that is wrong, and a clear justification to intervene to restore order.
Again: who pays for this Pax Americana?

Because I got news for you, WE are the ones who have been paying. In blood, cash, and toil.

Welcome to the new world. Where American arms and men will no longer be available to hide behind.

IF the majority of a country was clamoring for the world to intervene I would agree with it. But the warmongers always choose where to go while turning a blind eye towards China.

And in these days you don't need to go kill people to destroy a regime, just stop making bussiness with them. If all the world united behind Ukraine and threatened to do so, you bet Russia wouldn't invade?

If we all did the same with China regarding Hong Kong, Taiwan, the Huygurs and all their other human rights violations, what do you think would happen?

But our overlords made sure we can't do that, or else we risk not having any medicine... Fucking traitors.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: jhkim on February 04, 2022, 04:49:44 PM
In all my recent posts, I have referred to the Korean War as an example of a justified war - which is a stand against the tyranny of communism. Since my father was born and grew up in what is now North Korea, I'm very aware of that. Did you miss that, or are you discounting it for some reason? I've also discussed the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan as an example of tyranny that we should have and did oppose - though we did it poorly by funding Osama Bin Laden and other mujahideen. Again, that's communist tyranny.

Again - my examples of wars I think justified are WWII, the Korean War, and the Kuwait War. While these were expensive - the problem of cost in modern times is primarily from constant intervention in civil wars and attempts at regime change - like Panama, Somalia, Bosnia, Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Libya, and Yemen.

When there is a one-sided military invasion where one side outright invades another to conquer - that is wrong, and a clear justification to intervene to restore order.
Again: who pays for this Pax Americana?

Because I got news for you, WE are the ones who have been paying. In blood, cash, and toil.

Welcome to the new world. Where American arms and men will no longer be available to hide behind.

Ghostmaker, are you seriously claiming that it was only *American* blood, cash, and toil that was paid in WWII?!? The war was costly for the U.S., sure, but I find it hard to argue that Britain and other allies were sitting back and hiding behind American arms and men. The UK also contributed heavily to the Gulf War, in both cash and forces. The majority of the Gulf War cash expense was paid by Saudi Arabia and Kuwait, who contributed $32 billion. All of the wars I cited had mixed allied forces. Britain and France contributed less to the Korean War - but to be fair, their countries had been much more devastated by WWII at the time.

In general, I think everyone should pay. The U.S. has an outsized military budget, and I would agree to reducing it - but that doesn't mean not participating. It means participating in proportion to others. If our allies are contributing 0.X% of their GDP, we should contribute similarly.

(Also, you seem to have dropped your point about communism without answering.)
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on February 04, 2022, 06:04:52 PM
In general, I think everyone should pay. The U.S. has an outsized military budget, and I would agree to reducing it - but that doesn't mean not participating. It means participating in proportion to others. If our allies are contributing 0.X% of their GDP, we should contribute similarly.

Good luck with that. Germany thinks the only point of military budgets is to sell arms to their allies. They have no interest in actually deploying any of it themselves.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Zirunel on February 04, 2022, 07:24:15 PM
In general, I think everyone should pay. The U.S. has an outsized military budget, and I would agree to reducing it - but that doesn't mean not participating. It means participating in proportion to others. If our allies are contributing 0.X% of their GDP, we should contribute similarly.

Good luck with that. Germany thinks the only point of military budgets is to sell arms to their allies. They have no interest in actually deploying any of it themselves.

Germany? Germany has severe constitutional limits on use of military force abroad, that's been true since it was even allowed to have armed forces after WWII, for pretty obvious historical reasons. Yes it's a German concern, but originally an Allied concern. What's your point?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ghostmaker on February 04, 2022, 08:14:49 PM
In all my recent posts, I have referred to the Korean War as an example of a justified war - which is a stand against the tyranny of communism. Since my father was born and grew up in what is now North Korea, I'm very aware of that. Did you miss that, or are you discounting it for some reason? I've also discussed the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan as an example of tyranny that we should have and did oppose - though we did it poorly by funding Osama Bin Laden and other mujahideen. Again, that's communist tyranny.

Again - my examples of wars I think justified are WWII, the Korean War, and the Kuwait War. While these were expensive - the problem of cost in modern times is primarily from constant intervention in civil wars and attempts at regime change - like Panama, Somalia, Bosnia, Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Libya, and Yemen.

When there is a one-sided military invasion where one side outright invades another to conquer - that is wrong, and a clear justification to intervene to restore order.
Again: who pays for this Pax Americana?

Because I got news for you, WE are the ones who have been paying. In blood, cash, and toil.

Welcome to the new world. Where American arms and men will no longer be available to hide behind.

Ghostmaker, are you seriously claiming that it was only *American* blood, cash, and toil that was paid in WWII?!? The war was costly for the U.S., sure, but I find it hard to argue that Britain and other allies were sitting back and hiding behind American arms and men. The UK also contributed heavily to the Gulf War, in both cash and forces. The majority of the Gulf War cash expense was paid by Saudi Arabia and Kuwait, who contributed $32 billion. All of the wars I cited had mixed allied forces. Britain and France contributed less to the Korean War - but to be fair, their countries had been much more devastated by WWII at the time.

In general, I think everyone should pay. The U.S. has an outsized military budget, and I would agree to reducing it - but that doesn't mean not participating. It means participating in proportion to others. If our allies are contributing 0.X% of their GDP, we should contribute similarly.
This has been a problem for a while. NATO members have been falling down on their requirements for some time. And every time something goes sideways, it's 'America to the rescue'. They are NOT contributing. Hell, Trump called them out on it only to have everyone clutching their pearls about 'how dare he insult our allies'. Allies? We've been their fucking janissaries.

Quote
(Also, you seem to have dropped your point about communism without answering.)
Because you hid behind your father when I was making the point about certain people being gung-ho to go to war against some people, but strangely reticent for others. Namely, Nazism vs Communism. Despite the fact the latter was FAR more murderous and destructive.

So yeah, no point in continuing.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: jhkim on February 05, 2022, 03:56:59 PM
(Also, you seem to have dropped your point about communism without answering.)
Because you hid behind your father when I was making the point about certain people being gung-ho to go to war against some people, but strangely reticent for others. Namely, Nazism vs Communism. Despite the fact the latter was FAR more murderous and destructive.

I think I've made my position pretty plain. I've said all along that the North Korean communists were the bad guys and that we were right to have fought them. You responded with what "certain people" think.

On that front, I'm happy to agree that certain people are stupid, ignorant, and hypocritical -- often all three. I find that there are plenty of such people in general.

That doesn't say what is right, though. Do you have a position on war? Do you agree with oggsmash that there should be no foreign involvement? Do you agree with me about certain wars being justified (like WWII and Korea) even though most were not? Or do you have a different position?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Eirikrautha on February 05, 2022, 05:08:31 PM
(Also, you seem to have dropped your point about communism without answering.)
Because you hid behind your father when I was making the point about certain people being gung-ho to go to war against some people, but strangely reticent for others. Namely, Nazism vs Communism. Despite the fact the latter was FAR more murderous and destructive.

I think I've made my position pretty plain. I've said all along that the North Korean communists were the bad guys and that we were right to have fought them. You responded with what "certain people" think.

On that front, I'm happy to agree that certain people are stupid, ignorant, and hypocritical -- often all three. I find that there are plenty of such people in general.

That doesn't say what is right, though. Do you have a position on war? Do you agree with oggsmash that there should be no foreign involvement? Do you agree with me about certain wars being justified (like WWII and Korea) even though most were not? Or do you have a different position?

The problem is that your definition of a "just" war is completely based on hindsight.  There was no, as in zero, difference between the justification, reason, and threat the US faced from the Korean War and the war in Vietnam.  Both were waged to stop communist revolutions intended to destabilize East Asia and increase the power and influence of China and Russia (respectively).  In fact, part of the reason that Vietnam failed so spectacularly was because of the fear that it would result in a direct confrontation between superpowers (which the Korean War did, which is also why ended in a military draw) like the Korean War.  Do you support the Vietnam War?  Because, from the standpoint of the contemporaneous circumstances that prompted US intervention, they are identical.

I bet you don't.  Because, in popular understanding today, Vietnam was a failure.  And you're not going to own that your justification criteria lead to failures of wars as well as successes.  There's no moral courage, or utility, in trumpeting the justification for WW2, because the US was attacked on its own soil by a nation-state that was (theoretically, though not practically) capable of prosecuting the war in the US.  It was, from the point of view of those that fought it, a war for our nation's survival (whatever hindsight might suggest now as to the actualities of that threat).

But Korea was not that.  Vietnam was not that.  Desert Storm was not that.  Neither was Afghanistan.  And Afghanistan was more like WW2, in it's causus belli than Desert Storm.  Afghanistan was predicated by an actual attack on US soil, that killed more people than Pearl Harbor, by a terrorist group harbor end and supported by the Afghani government.  The fact that the US fucked up the prosecution of the war has NO relevance on whether or not the war was justified.  So how can you support Korea, but not Vietnam?  Kuwait, but not Afghanistan?

You opinion appears, by all indications, to be based on whether or not the (primarily leftist) opinion of modern historians as to whether or not the war was "just."  Any other actual set of coherent principles is not in evidence.  So, f I had to guess, that would be my guess as to why Ghostmaker doesn't take your objections at face value.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on February 05, 2022, 05:17:44 PM
(Also, you seem to have dropped your point about communism without answering.)
Because you hid behind your father when I was making the point about certain people being gung-ho to go to war against some people, but strangely reticent for others. Namely, Nazism vs Communism. Despite the fact the latter was FAR more murderous and destructive.

I think I've made my position pretty plain. I've said all along that the North Korean communists were the bad guys and that we were right to have fought them.
That's basically a 5 year old's view of geopolitics. You can make an argument that the leaders of 95% of all countries are bad guys, or bump that up to 100% if we're being honest and not parochial. If all it takes to go to war is to declare the other side bad, then any war becomes just, and there would never be an end to war.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on February 05, 2022, 07:53:12 PM
Thank statism! Spotify has deleted 71 episodes of Joe Rogan's podcast for not being government approved disinformation misinformation! Now we can safely be told what to think, instead of hearing a show that presents opposing views from highly respected and extraordinarily well credentialed scientists! And just to dispel the protests of the alt-right extremists who don't think the Constitution is a good substitute for toilet paper, no, it's not a violation of freedom of speech. The first amendment only applies when the government suppresses speech itself, not when they pressure private companies to suppress speech for them.

And even better, Facebook has deleted the Washington DC Freedom Convoy page. Truckers are even more dangerous terrorists than parents who join the PTA and think they have a say over the indoctrination education of their children. So please report any sightings of trucks to your local party, comrade! Rumor has it they're known to backup to stores you shop at! And you can tell they're engaged in something qnefarious, because they don't pull up in front of the store like all the regular, Marx-fearing impatient people who leave their engines running when they park in front of the door and run in for a "quick" something. No, you can tell those those dastardly truckers are up to something because they sneak around the back!

And best of all, GoFundMe has seized the funds donated to the truckers in Canada, and will safely funnel the money to progressive causes! Totalitarianism Freedom is winning! Edit: Breaking update! Due to pressure from hate groups like people who donate to charities, GoFundMe has caved and will instead return the funds to the donors. It's a sad day for evil freedom, but don't worry we'll still win!
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: moonsweeper on February 06, 2022, 01:20:23 AM
C'mon man. Now that the Covid narrative is collapsing we need a war to change the talking points.



Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: jhkim on February 06, 2022, 01:58:27 AM
That doesn't say what is right, though. Do you have a position on war? Do you agree with oggsmash that there should be no foreign involvement? Do you agree with me about certain wars being justified (like WWII and Korea) even though most were not? Or do you have a different position?

The problem is that your definition of a "just" war is completely based on hindsight.  There was no, as in zero, difference between the justification, reason, and threat the US faced from the Korean War and the war in Vietnam.  Both were waged to stop communist revolutions intended to destabilize East Asia and increase the power and influence of China and Russia (respectively).  In fact, part of the reason that Vietnam failed so spectacularly was because of the fear that it would result in a direct confrontation between superpowers (which the Korean War did, which is also why ended in a military draw) like the Korean War.  Do you support the Vietnam War?  Because, from the standpoint of the contemporaneous circumstances that prompted US intervention, they are identical.

I don't agree they are identical. Again, my premise is that one-sided invasion where one side conquers the other is invalid, and demands resistance.

(1) The Korean War was officially sanctioned by the U.N. Security Council and actions. The Vietnam War was not.

(2) The Korean War had a clear and unambiguous start - the 25 June 1950 one-sided military invasion of the south from the north. The Vietnam War was started by the Gulf of Tonkin incident, which was a lie. Even if it was true, the response of massive airstrikes on the south was not in the slightest a response in kind to a skirmish like that.

(3) Vietnam was formerly a French colony, and had been attacked by the French for years prior to the second war involving the U.S. Korean had only been occupied by Japan. The Vietnamese had good reason to see the West as conquering, since they had done so before.


There's no moral courage, or utility, in trumpeting the justification for WW2, because the US was attacked on its own soil by a nation-state that was (theoretically, though not practically) capable of prosecuting the war in the US.  It was, from the point of view of those that fought it, a war for our nation's survival (whatever hindsight might suggest now as to the actualities of that threat).

But Korea was not that.  Vietnam was not that.  Desert Storm was not that.  Neither was Afghanistan.  And Afghanistan was more like WW2, in it's causus belli than Desert Storm.  Afghanistan was predicated by an actual attack on US soil, that killed more people than Pearl Harbor, by a terrorist group harbor end and supported by the Afghani government.  The fact that the US fucked up the prosecution of the war has NO relevance on whether or not the war was justified.  So how can you support Korea, but not Vietnam?  Kuwait, but not Afghanistan?

The common traits of WWII, Korea, and Kuwait is that they involved outright one-sided military invasion. Not a skirmish or single attack. Our enemies undertook an invasion for conquest of territory, where armies of one side roll into the other to take it by force. The latter two were community actions endorsed by the United Nations Security Council.

These one-sided invasions need to be resisted, because conquest for territory is illegitimate, and allowing it to happen unresisted destabilizes all countries.

By contrast, excuses like "Remember the Maine" or the Gulf of Tonkin claim that it is legitimate to upgrade from a small skirmish to all-out assault / invasion of the other side. I think that sort of escalation is not justified. Escalating to all-out war is destabilizing. If everyone were to always escalate any attack to that degree, the world would be on fire. With Afghanistan, the U.S. war was supposedly motivated by 9/11 -- but none of the 9/11 attackers were Afghani, or acting as agents of the Afghan government. Because the Afghan government gave support to Al Qaeda, I think a military response was justified - but conquest of the entire country was not. Our invasion of Iraq was certainly not justified by this view.

The claim of "casus belli" is often that some isolated attack justifies all-out war and conquest of the other country -- and I think that is extremely suspect.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Eirikrautha on February 06, 2022, 09:30:04 AM
That doesn't say what is right, though. Do you have a position on war? Do you agree with oggsmash that there should be no foreign involvement? Do you agree with me about certain wars being justified (like WWII and Korea) even though most were not? Or do you have a different position?

The problem is that your definition of a "just" war is completely based on hindsight.  There was no, as in zero, difference between the justification, reason, and threat the US faced from the Korean War and the war in Vietnam.  Both were waged to stop communist revolutions intended to destabilize East Asia and increase the power and influence of China and Russia (respectively).  In fact, part of the reason that Vietnam failed so spectacularly was because of the fear that it would result in a direct confrontation between superpowers (which the Korean War did, which is also why ended in a military draw) like the Korean War.  Do you support the Vietnam War?  Because, from the standpoint of the contemporaneous circumstances that prompted US intervention, they are identical.

I don't agree they are identical. Again, my premise is that one-sided invasion where one side conquers the other is invalid, and demands resistance.

(1) The Korean War was officially sanctioned by the U.N. Security Council and actions. The Vietnam War was not.

(2) The Korean War had a clear and unambiguous start - the 25 June 1950 one-sided military invasion of the south from the north. The Vietnam War was started by the Gulf of Tonkin incident, which was a lie. Even if it was true, the response of massive airstrikes on the south was not in the slightest a response in kind to a skirmish like that.

(3) Vietnam was formerly a French colony, and had been attacked by the French for years prior to the second war involving the U.S. Korean had only been occupied by Japan. The Vietnamese had good reason to see the West as conquering, since they had done so before.


There's no moral courage, or utility, in trumpeting the justification for WW2, because the US was attacked on its own soil by a nation-state that was (theoretically, though not practically) capable of prosecuting the war in the US.  It was, from the point of view of those that fought it, a war for our nation's survival (whatever hindsight might suggest now as to the actualities of that threat).

But Korea was not that.  Vietnam was not that.  Desert Storm was not that.  Neither was Afghanistan.  And Afghanistan was more like WW2, in it's causus belli than Desert Storm.  Afghanistan was predicated by an actual attack on US soil, that killed more people than Pearl Harbor, by a terrorist group harbor end and supported by the Afghani government.  The fact that the US fucked up the prosecution of the war has NO relevance on whether or not the war was justified.  So how can you support Korea, but not Vietnam?  Kuwait, but not Afghanistan?

The common traits of WWII, Korea, and Kuwait is that they involved outright one-sided military invasion. Not a skirmish or single attack. Our enemies undertook an invasion for conquest of territory, where armies of one side roll into the other to take it by force. The latter two were community actions endorsed by the United Nations Security Council.

These one-sided invasions need to be resisted, because conquest for territory is illegitimate, and allowing it to happen unresisted destabilizes all countries.

By contrast, excuses like "Remember the Maine" or the Gulf of Tonkin claim that it is legitimate to upgrade from a small skirmish to all-out assault / invasion of the other side. I think that sort of escalation is not justified. Escalating to all-out war is destabilizing. If everyone were to always escalate any attack to that degree, the world would be on fire. With Afghanistan, the U.S. war was supposedly motivated by 9/11 -- but none of the 9/11 attackers were Afghani, or acting as agents of the Afghan government. Because the Afghan government gave support to Al Qaeda, I think a military response was justified - but conquest of the entire country was not. Our invasion of Iraq was certainly not justified by this view.

The claim of "casus belli" is often that some isolated attack justifies all-out war and conquest of the other country -- and I think that is extremely suspect.

Of course every war has a different precipitating event.  But that is irrelevant to the justification for the war.  By your criteria, the US participated in an unjust war in Bosnia, as no one invaded anywhere (it was a totally internal struggle).  Iraq's own justification for invading Kuwait was a violation of its own sovereign territory (and there's some evidence the Kuwaitis may have actually dug some cross-border wells).  So, if Putin gets a puppet government to ask him to enter Ukraine to "help stabilize" the country, that's totally different than if he enters unilaterally to "help stabilize"?  You realize that this is exactly how the Russians entered Afghanistan, right?  So, to you, the Russian war in Afghanistan was just?  The idea that the precipitating event that propels a nation to war is the primary factor in the war being justified is actually far more stupid and dangerous than I even gave you credit for.  And your deference to the UN is even more boneheaded.  So, as long as a majority of nations voting in some council at the UN believe a war is just (the same UN that had Syria, China, and Iran as members of their Human Rights Council), then the actual interests and needs of the US are unimportant?

This is the problem with you modern leftists.  You are so deferential to authority (I believe as an excuse to dodge the hard choices of personal responsibility), that you will reflexively defer to any person or body that claims authority, even when their claim is suspect.  The idea that the UN has any authority in matters of moral authority (let's remember, the US got a UN resolution to invade Iraq predicated on false reports of WMDs... So the second Iraqi War was just in you criteria, because we had a UN resolution backing it) is laughable on its face.  The fact that you would give them ultimate authority to determine the "just-ness" of a war...

The fact remains that your justifications are still post hoc, as every claim for provocation was met at the time by most of the countries involved.  Only in hindsight can we unravel which claims were poorly supported... which is why your criteria are arbitrary and not possible to use as a contemporaneous justification.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: jhkim on February 09, 2022, 05:27:50 PM
The claim of "casus belli" is often that some isolated attack justifies all-out war and conquest of the other country -- and I think that is extremely suspect.

Iraq's own justification for invading Kuwait was a violation of its own sovereign territory (and there's some evidence the Kuwaitis may have actually dug some cross-border wells).  So, if Putin gets a puppet government to ask him to enter Ukraine to "help stabilize" the country, that's totally different than if he enters unilaterally to "help stabilize"?  You realize that this is exactly how the Russians entered Afghanistan, right?  So, to you, the Russian war in Afghanistan was just?  The idea that the precipitating event that propels a nation to war is the primary factor in the war being justified is actually far more stupid and dangerous than I even gave you credit for.

As I quote above, I said specifically I'm against going to war over a singular precipitating event to justify war. Precipitating events like the sinking of the Maine or the Gulf of Tonkin attack did not justify those wars - particularly given that they were fictional. Likewise, even if Kuwait did have cross-border wells, that doesn't mean that Iraq was justified in conquering and take over Kuwait.

There's a categorical difference between "precipitating events" like these, and invading Poland.

If country A invades country B to conquer it, then they started the war. Allies and other countries sending troops to stop or reverse the invasion isn't starting the war - it is justified response.


This is the problem with you modern leftists.  You are so deferential to authority (I believe as an excuse to dodge the hard choices of personal responsibility), that you will reflexively defer to any person or body that claims authority, even when their claim is suspect.  The idea that the UN has any authority in matters of moral authority (let's remember, the US got a UN resolution to invade Iraq predicated on false reports of WMDs... So the second Iraqi War was just in you criteria, because we had a UN resolution backing it) is laughable on its face.

This is not what I said. Neither the U.N., nor the U.S., nor any other authority is the definition of what is just. If the U.N. were to reverse its policy on wars of aggression, then they would be wrong. Your claim was that Vietnam was identical to Korea, and I listed out a number of ways that they were different - including the U.N. authorization.

Incidentally, UNSCR resolution 1441 does *not* call for the U.S. to invade Iraq. You can read the full text of it here:

http://unscr.com/en/resolutions/1441

The only thing it calls for is for member states to support WMD inspections ("requests all Member States to give full support to UNMOVIC and the IAEA in the discharge of their mandates"). Contrast it with the resolution on the Korean War:

http://unscr.com/en/resolutions/83

Where it "recommends that the Members of the United Nations furnish such assistance to the Republic of Korea as may be
necessary to repel the armed attack and to restore international peace and security in the area." So in this case, these resolutions match my judgement, but it's not definitional -- it's just that the U.S. is far more inclined to war than the U.N. is.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on February 09, 2022, 05:36:20 PM
The UN is one of the most corrupt of international bodies - and given they're all corrupt (FIFA, the World Bank, etc) that's saying something.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: jhkim on February 09, 2022, 05:38:25 PM
The UN is one of the most corrupt of international bodies - and given they're all corrupt (FIFA, the World Bank, etc) that's saying something.

Then apparently the U.S. just didn't pay enough to authorize its Iraq War.  ;D
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on February 10, 2022, 08:15:15 AM
Liars trying to justify their lies: https://apnews.com/article/fact-checking-976069264061?utm_campaign=SocialFlow&utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=APFactCheck

Quote
"The CDC has altered the language in the definition of vaccination on its website, including after the development of COVID-19 vaccines, but the changes were made to prevent potential misinterpretations, and did not alter the overall definition, according to the agency. Experts confirmed to The Associated Press that the changes reflect the evolution of vaccine research and technology."

What bollocks, they're changing their story after the fact, whilst still trying to claim they didn't falsely change the definition.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: dkabq on February 10, 2022, 08:41:18 AM
Liars trying to justify their lies: https://apnews.com/article/fact-checking-976069264061?utm_campaign=SocialFlow&utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=APFactCheck

Quote
"The CDC has altered the language in the definition of vaccination on its website, including after the development of COVID-19 vaccines, but the changes were made to prevent potential misinterpretations, and did not alter the overall definition, according to the agency. Experts confirmed to The Associated Press that the changes reflect the evolution of vaccine research and technology."

What bollocks, they're changing their story after the fact, whilst still trying to claim they didn't false change the definition.

As I see it, the problem is that the powers-that-be used the previous, imprecise definitions to mislead the public.

For example: "Vax or Mask"; if you got vaccinated, you did not need to wear are mask because the vaccine stopped the vaccinated from spreading covid.

Or the "if x-% of the population gets vaccinated we will reach herd immunity".

In both cases, they were either incompetently wrong or telling the "noble" lie. And the public buys it because they are led to believe that the covid vaccine acts like all of the other vaccines they are aware of (e.g., measles, small pox, polio).


Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on February 10, 2022, 08:56:59 AM
LMAO... looking to the UN as any sort of authority is like having your 6 year old run your household.  Lots of loud voices in the UN from countries that can not get their shit together.  Kuwait was stealing oil from Iraq.  They were warned to stop.  Several times.  They were having a local beef over a debt, and it should have stayed a local beef.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on February 10, 2022, 09:06:42 AM
LMAO... looking to the UN as any sort of authority is like having your 6 year old run your household.  Lots of loud voices in the UN from countries that can not get their shit together.  Kuwait was stealing oil from Iraq.  They were warned to stop.  Several times.  They were having a local beef over a debt, and it should have stayed a local beef.

The Palestinian authorities and numerous representatives of governments with a track record of routine torture are allowed to sit on the UNCHR. It's a joke.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on February 10, 2022, 09:17:14 AM
USA military business is at the borders, and that is it.  Just as the founding fathers wanted, NO INVOLVEMENT IN FOREIGN ADVENTURES.  You can say the world is better off for the USA getting into foreign adventures, but reality is you do not know (WW2 never happens if the USA is not in WW1, and WW1 is the main reason the PEOPLE (not political elite) wanted zero part of WW2) and I can assure you millions of Iraqis disagree 1000 percent with your endorsement of foreign adventures. 

   The issue I have with pussies pushing for use of force, is they have ZERO understanding of the consequences of when force gets pointed back at them.  The "World" let commies run wild after WW2, and millions upon millions of people died because of it, many more than died during WW2.  So your view of better is more or less speculative bullshit.

Sure, it's speculative - but so is your view.

The vast majority of the American public supported involvement in WWII at the time of our entry - it wasn't just the political elite. Even war veterans have tended to think that the war had been worth fighting. The WWII and Korean War veterans that I have met had plenty of gripes about the government, but they didn't regret that the war was fought. Even my German friends agree that America was right to fight against Germany. So among non-pussies who do understand the consequences, they don't generally share your view.

On a personal level, I know I wouldn't be alive if it weren't for the Korean War, and I have many Jewish friends who wouldn't be alive if it weren't for our involvement in WWII.

That said, I'm in agreement with you about most U.S. wars. If the U.S. had only used its military to defend its borders since the founding, the world would certainly be a very different place (especially North America) - and it might be better overall, given the number of unjust wars we have engaged in. But I do still think that Nazis were worth fighting.

  You seem to just be obtuse when it suits you.  Did you miss where I said that had the USA never entered WW1 there is no WW2?  No Nazis, no WW2.  I am glad lots and lots of people died so you could be born.  Did your father actually do any fighting?  Or did he do the hiding and fleeing?  I have family, all the way down the line that has been involved in these wars, going back a looong ways. I even got to do a bunch of calculus and physics during desert storm (was in Naval Nuclear Power School at that time) and figured I would be over there as well.  As for public support for WW2, no, it was damn near zero UNTIL WE WERE BOMBED.   Of course WW2 vets are going to feel justified, look at the propaganda in every place in the country that was rolled out non stop.  But again, no WW1 involvement, there is likely never a WW2, at least there are no Nazis.  One action created a  horrible genocide down the road, because of US intervention.   WW2 was heavily propagandized (as was WW1) so lots of these "just" wars were simply the results of effective propaganda.   You conjure Nazi's because your boomer brain has been conditioned they were the worst enemy ever on earth.  They were a creation of a non decisive ending to WW1, because of the US involvement.   I think it would have been better had there never been in Nazis, and there are a shitload more Jews who if they could, would agree with me on that compared to how many appreciate the USA fighting in WW2. 

  Edited to add:  Using vets to say a war was just is a bad metric.  NO ONE who is in a military conflict where they see friends and comrades die(and often a lot of them) is going to want to think on any level what they were involved with was a waste of time not needed.  Combat veterans also tend to agree largely with what the propaganda around the war says as well, isnt it odd how many Vietnam vets were against the war?  Which mirrored the pushed propaganda in the media?  People who were in the desert wars also say they felt it was needed and just.  Watching a friend die is going to affect you a lot on how you view something like that.  Going through it with guys you rely on to stay alive and doing your part to keeping them alive forges a bond that can only be found in combat.   Those things are going to affect your view of the conflict in a way that is frankly, going to be about as far from objective as you can get.   Every WW2 vet I knew though never said they felt they should have gone over there though.  They said they had to do it, accepted it, and did their best to get the job done so they could come home.  None had much of a point of view about whether they should have been there or not IME. 
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on February 10, 2022, 09:48:50 AM
 But I would not disagree Nazis should have been stopped.  Reality is the world did not know just how bad they were until they were actually rolling over people in full war.   it was a little late then.  I would also say commies should have been stopped.  Then there never is a Korean War.  Had both been stamped out at their beginnings, the world would be a better place.  But, the reality is, people have to get their own shit together first.  Meaning take care of yourself, immediate family, circle of family and friends, local community, etc.  That circle only needs to expand when the smaller circle is in good shape.  The USA now, for certain needs a no foreign action policy.  Those smaller circles of concern are for shit right now. 

   I do have the benefit of looking back with hindsight, just as anyone does, and we are in the mess we are in because we have people who say some wars are just and others are not.  War is never just IMO, because it will always involve your army going into enemy territory, and a whole lot of people get killed who likely might not have been for the war in the first place (even germany had Dresden get turned to ash, and I have doubt many of those old people and women were huge supporters of German aggression, as well as Berlin literally getting raped for weeks by Russian troops) because the governments of their nations are likely to not give a whole lot of choices on the matter.   So really, a war of defense, where you are killing enemy soldiers entering your territory is really the only war you have a chance of calling "just", because otherwise you are going to kill a bunch of old people, women, and kids who were not, and never were fighting.  That is just reality, and a bunch of pussies with cone heads in the state department do not give two shits.  Largely this is because they do not give two shits about our people, so they damn sure do not care about people in another place. 

   I used some strong language with you Mr Kim, and that was over the line.  I just get a bit tired of cone headed shitbirds in the state department yammering on about american values and going over into someone else's country and doing their fighting for them against people who have offered us no threat.   I do not like to hear people talking military intervention who have likely never even been in a fist fight in their entire lives.   The country is (maybe was) FULL of people, especially republicans who were very quick to jump into foreign adventures.  So I suppose I would rank wars we should have been in or not the past 200 years, and if I did WW2, because it happened I can agree it had to happen, but it is pretty much the only one.  But I do not live in the past, nor can I change it.  I can do my best to argue better choices moving forward.   People are emotional, and easily swayed by propaganda.   They also seem much more easily swayed when their "team" is the one calling for war, strangely enough.  This is the benefit I feel free in having  no team, I can be against a war at all times for the simple moral reason, it is almost always wrong. 
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: dkabq on February 10, 2022, 11:27:55 AM
It is NR, so take it with whatever size grain of salt you need.
https://www.nationalreview.com/2022/02/leana-wens-180-degree-reversal-on-masks/

If anyone comes across a take on this from the M5M, I would be interested to see it.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on February 10, 2022, 11:32:45 AM
It is NR, so take it with whatever size grain of salt you need.
https://www.nationalreview.com/2022/02/leana-wens-180-degree-reversal-on-masks/

If anyone comes across a take on this from the M5M, I would be interested to see it.

  To be fair to her, she keeps getting different talking points sent to her from above.  I am sure once the final polling is done she will have the proper scientific answer for everyone.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ghostmaker on February 10, 2022, 11:39:30 AM
It is NR, so take it with whatever size grain of salt you need.
https://www.nationalreview.com/2022/02/leana-wens-180-degree-reversal-on-masks/

If anyone comes across a take on this from the M5M, I would be interested to see it.

  To be fair to her, she keeps getting different talking points sent to her from above.  I am sure once the final polling is done she will have the proper scientific answer for everyone.
That's because the current junta knows the current situation is untenable. But if they start backing off, not only do they start losing the power they've gained, their loyal cultists will wig out.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: dkabq on February 10, 2022, 11:50:05 AM
It is NR, so take it with whatever size grain of salt you need.
https://www.nationalreview.com/2022/02/leana-wens-180-degree-reversal-on-masks/

If anyone comes across a take on this from the M5M, I would be interested to see it.

  To be fair to her, she keeps getting different talking points sent to her from above.  I am sure once the final polling is done she will have the proper scientific answer for everyone.

To be fair...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jv7jcciKB_s

Was triple-masked triple-layered ever a CDC talking point? (why can't it read?!?)
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on February 10, 2022, 12:05:12 PM
It is NR, so take it with whatever size grain of salt you need.
https://www.nationalreview.com/2022/02/leana-wens-180-degree-reversal-on-masks/

If anyone comes across a take on this from the M5M, I would be interested to see it.

  To be fair to her, she keeps getting different talking points sent to her from above.  I am sure once the final polling is done she will have the proper scientific answer for everyone.

To be fair...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jv7jcciKB_s

Was triple-masked ever a CDC talking point?

  Those are not her bosses giving her talking points.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: dkabq on February 10, 2022, 12:10:01 PM
Apparently now focus groups = SCIENCE!(tm)
https://youtu.be/Bcq5YqCqagI?t=323
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: jhkim on February 10, 2022, 02:16:23 PM
War is never just IMO, because it will always involve your army going into enemy territory, and a whole lot of people get killed who likely might not have been for the war in the first place (even germany had Dresden get turned to ash, and I have doubt many of those old people and women were huge supporters of German aggression, as well as Berlin literally getting raped for weeks by Russian troops) because the governments of their nations are likely to not give a whole lot of choices on the matter.   So really, a war of defense, where you are killing enemy soldiers entering your territory is really the only war you have a chance of calling "just", because otherwise you are going to kill a bunch of old people, women, and kids who were not, and never were fighting.

This is close to my position. A just war is a defensive war, fought to respond to aggression. War inherently involves killing - but  deterring aggression reduces killing overall. Killing civilians is worse than killing soldiers - but killing soldiers still isn't good. They could be teenagers who were drafted and no more culpable than civilians. But allowing wars of aggression to proceed without resistance doesn't reduce violence overall - it encourages it.

If country A invades country B, then not only is country B justified in fighting back, but countries C and D are justified in helping repel the aggression. What we want is for it to be clear that wars of aggression are not tolerated. If all of A, B, C, and D know that if they start a war, then the others will turn against them -- then the result is a world with less war.


Edited to add:  Using vets to say a war was just is a bad metric.  NO ONE who is in a military conflict where they see friends and comrades die(and often a lot of them) is going to want to think on any level what they were involved with was a waste of time not needed.  Combat veterans also tend to agree largely with what the propaganda around the war says as well, isnt it odd how many Vietnam vets were against the war?  Which mirrored the pushed propaganda in the media?  People who were in the desert wars also say they felt it was needed and just.  Watching a friend die is going to affect you a lot on how you view something like that.  Going through it with guys you rely on to stay alive and doing your part to keeping them alive forges a bond that can only be found in combat.   Those things are going to affect your view of the conflict in a way that is frankly, going to be about as far from objective as you can get.

Back in reply #1237 (https://www.therpgsite.com/the-rpgpundit-s-own-forum/imprison-anyone-who-refuses-the-vax!/msg1205461/#msg1205461), you were dismissive of the opinions of those who hadn't fought because they have zero understanding of the consequences. But now you're also dismissing the opinions of those who *have* fought because they can't be objective.

I think one can disagree with the opinions of either, but neither group can be dismissed. I'm not saying veterans are always right - but their opinions can't be dismissed, just as people who aren't veterans can't have their opinions dismissed just because they aren't veterans.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on February 10, 2022, 03:00:14 PM
War is never just IMO, because it will always involve your army going into enemy territory, and a whole lot of people get killed who likely might not have been for the war in the first place (even germany had Dresden get turned to ash, and I have doubt many of those old people and women were huge supporters of German aggression, as well as Berlin literally getting raped for weeks by Russian troops) because the governments of their nations are likely to not give a whole lot of choices on the matter.   So really, a war of defense, where you are killing enemy soldiers entering your territory is really the only war you have a chance of calling "just", because otherwise you are going to kill a bunch of old people, women, and kids who were not, and never were fighting.

This is close to my position. A just war is a defensive war, fought to respond to aggression. War inherently involves killing - but  deterring aggression reduces killing overall. Killing civilians is worse than killing soldiers - but killing soldiers still isn't good. They could be teenagers who were drafted and no more culpable than civilians. But allowing wars of aggression to proceed without resistance doesn't reduce violence overall - it encourages it.

If country A invades country B, then not only is country B justified in fighting back, but countries C and D are justified in helping repel the aggression. What we want is for it to be clear that wars of aggression are not tolerated. If all of A, B, C, and D know that if they start a war, then the others will turn against them -- then the result is a world with less war.


Edited to add:  Using vets to say a war was just is a bad metric.  NO ONE who is in a military conflict where they see friends and comrades die(and often a lot of them) is going to want to think on any level what they were involved with was a waste of time not needed.  Combat veterans also tend to agree largely with what the propaganda around the war says as well, isnt it odd how many Vietnam vets were against the war?  Which mirrored the pushed propaganda in the media?  People who were in the desert wars also say they felt it was needed and just.  Watching a friend die is going to affect you a lot on how you view something like that.  Going through it with guys you rely on to stay alive and doing your part to keeping them alive forges a bond that can only be found in combat.   Those things are going to affect your view of the conflict in a way that is frankly, going to be about as far from objective as you can get.

Back in reply #1237 (https://www.therpgsite.com/the-rpgpundit-s-own-forum/imprison-anyone-who-refuses-the-vax!/msg1205461/#msg1205461), you were dismissive of the opinions of those who hadn't fought because they have zero understanding of the consequences. But now you're also dismissing the opinions of those who *have* fought because they can't be objective.

I think one can disagree with the opinions of either, but neither group can be dismissed. I'm not saying veterans are always right - but their opinions can't be dismissed, just as people who aren't veterans can't have their opinions dismissed just because they aren't veterans.

     No, I can dismiss whatever I want.  You do not have to agree with that, I do give more weight to people who had to bleed, but wrong is still wrong.  War is wrong.  If you are for it, so be it.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: jhkim on February 10, 2022, 11:58:04 PM
     No, I can dismiss whatever I want.  You do not have to agree with that, I do give more weight to people who had to bleed, but wrong is still wrong.  War is wrong.  If you are for it, so be it.

OK, fair enough. At least we've elaborated on our positions. I hope you're doing well.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on February 11, 2022, 08:45:14 AM
     No, I can dismiss whatever I want.  You do not have to agree with that, I do give more weight to people who had to bleed, but wrong is still wrong.  War is wrong.  If you are for it, so be it.

OK, fair enough. At least we've elaborated on our positions. I hope you're doing well.

  I also want to elaborate, this is one subject I am just simply not open to discussion on.  I just have no interest in being swayed, convinced or hearing a counter, so it is not so much a dismissal, as there is simply nothing anyone can say to make me change my mind on this one.   As for how I am doing, well I caught covid while recovering from surgery (finally went to the doctor for my torn pectoral, and it was a grade 3 blow out, so I got a cadaver tendon to reattach that) which was inconvenient for physical therapy, but to be honest I was a little underwhelmed given all the hype around covid.   But 3 more months and I will have two fully functional sides (meaning I can throw and choke people again). So I am doing well, but on my scale, I hope you are doing better. 
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ratman_tf on February 11, 2022, 04:01:09 PM
(finally went to the doctor for my torn pectoral, and it was a grade 3 blow out, so I got a cadaver tendon to reattach that)

Well, today I learned that that is a thing.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on February 11, 2022, 04:06:00 PM
(finally went to the doctor for my torn pectoral, and it was a grade 3 blow out, so I got a cadaver tendon to reattach that)

Well, today I learned that that is a thing.

  Yeah, apparently achilles tendons from folks who have expired made the best material.  I had heard of replacement knees from a cadaver (I think Tito Ortiz was the first person I ever heard of getting one).
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: dkabq on February 12, 2022, 12:38:49 PM
A summary of St. Fauci's flip-flopping:
https://www.newsweek.com/how-fauci-fooled-america-opinion-1643839
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on February 14, 2022, 04:13:37 PM
Open letter to our health authorities to stop jabbing kids, and not to extend the rollout to 5-11 year olds: https://www.hartgroup.org/open-letter-to-the-jcvi-pause-vaccines-for-children-pending-urgent-review/

Quote
Dear Professor Wei, Professor Whitty and Mr Javid,

We wrote to you and also the MHRA last month regarding urgent investigation of the acknowledged increase in all-cause mortality in males aged 15-19, since the Pfizer covid vaccine rollout commenced in this age group in May 2021. ONS have acknowledged in the High Court in London, that the figure of 402 excess deaths is significantly higher than the previous 5 year average of 337 deaths. It has proved impossible to get the actual data.  Indeed, they stated it is probably an underestimate because of delays for coroners’ cases.  This equates to at least two additional teenage boys dying each week of the roll-out, possibly more.   It is thus very disappointing not to have received any response.

We are writing further to ask you to pause the vaccines for children while you undertake and publish an urgent review of the risk/benefit analysis. In August 2021 you concluded that there was no medical justification for vaccinating healthy 12-15-year-olds, with the authorisation based on an aim to reduce school closures. But this new safety signal and the impact of this uncertainty must affect your assessment of the risk to benefits.

Since that date, much has changed. The latest omicron variant has been shown to have a much lower risk of serious illness, hospitalisations and deaths than the previous alpha and delta variants circulating at the time of the decision.  This is true for children as well as adults, so given the extremely low risk for children in previous waves, any potential for benefit must surely have dwindled to virtually zero. Also, in your analysis you failed to take due regard to naturally-acquired immunity, now demonstrated and widely accepted to be superior to vaccine acquired immunity. Children have had high rates of infection throughout recent weeks with at least 80% now estimated to be immune. In addition, the efficacy of Pfizer against omicron compared to previous variants is reduced to the point where infection rates are now higher in the vaccinated than the unvaccinated removing any potential indirect benefit to immune-compromised family members and perversely creating an increased risk to contacts of the vaccinated.   

On the risks side of the balance sheet, we have further information regarding myocarditis, with an occurrence rate of 1/2680 young men in Hong Kong, where unlike the UK, this was sought systematically from the start of their rollout. Indeed they paused their second dose, just as the UK moved from one to two doses. Data from the US also confirm high rates of 1/9443 in males aged 16-17 after their second dose. We still have no follow-up data on the increasing number of children reported from the US with significant abnormalities on their cardiac MRI scans. We also have worrying information on all-cause mortality by vaccination status, which even from the original adult Pfizer trial showed a higher mortality for the vaccinated group. Side effects are higher when vaccinating those already immune. Other side effects such as increased blood clots will all be playing a part in this balance of risk. Non-fatal adverse events, particularly neurological, have the potential to blight the lives of affected children.

The latest information from the CDC is very worrying, that of 4149 injured children, 100 (2.41%) had a serious adverse event, 15/4149 (0.36%) had increased troponin (12 confirmed to be myocarditis), 12/4149 (0.29%) had seizures, 2/4149 (0.048%) died (being evaluated). This in itself is a reason to review. To clarify, this is 4149 non-serious adverse events and 100 serious adverse events reported in a total of ~8 million doses to this age group which is 1 in 80,000 but we know that VAERS is a gross underestimate.

Furthermore, there is increasing evidence of impairment of immune function particularly following multiple doses of vaccine. Israel is now seeing serious illness and death after the fourth vaccine dose. There is also new bio-distribution data showing that mRNA and spike protein, far from being eliminated within a few days, are still persisting for 60 days or more. We have no knowledge of the long-term implications of vaccinating children against what is now acknowledged to be a very mild illness for them, indeed with 50% having no symptoms whatsoever.

With the arrival of omicron, SARS-CoV-2 has moved from pandemic to endemic. If the current situation had existed six months ago, there would have been no case made for commencing routine rollout for healthy children. Now, it is proposed that even those testing positive for omicron do not need to isolate. If omicron is no risk to others, why vaccinate? The prospect now of widening the coverage to 5-11s would be all the more ludicrous. We should, like Norway & Sweden, make clear that vaccination for this age group is simply not necessary. 

The time has now come to pause and acknowledge that there is no emergency for children and that for them the balance of benefit and risk now clearly favours natural immunity. On that basis the routine programme could and should be halted. Failure to act will lay you open to liability for ongoing harms.

We would like to meet with you urgently, in order to support you in taking stock of all of the pertinent new and emerging data.

Yours sincerely,

    Dr Rosamond Jones, MBBS, MD, FRCPCH, retired consultant paediatrician, convener CCVAG (Children’s Covid Vaccines Advisory Group)
    Professor Keith Willison, PhD, Professor of Chemical Biology, Imperial, London
    Professor David Livermore, BSc, PhD, Professor of Medical Microbiology, University of East Anglia
    Professor Anthony J Brookes, Professor of Genomics and Health Data Science, University of Leicester
    Professor Richard Ennos, MA, PhD. Honorary Professorial Fellow, University of Edinburgh
    Professor Angus Dalgleish, MD, FRCP, FRACP, FRCPath, FMed Sci, Professor of Oncology, St Georges Hospital, London
    Professor John Fairclough FRCS FFSEM retired Honorary Consultant Surgeon
    Professor Norman Fenton, CEng, CMath, PhD, FBCS, MIET, Professor of Risk Information Management, Queen Mary University of London
    Professor Anthony Fryer, PhD FRCPath, Professor of Clinical Biochemistry
    Lord Moonie,  MBChB, MRCPsych, MFCM, MSc, House of Lords, former parliamentary under-secretary of state 2001-2003, former consultant in Public Health Medicine
    Dr Theresa Lawrie, MBBCh, PhD, Director, Evidence-Based Medicine Consultancy Ltd, Bath
    Dr John Flack, BPharm, PhD. Retired Director of Safety Evaluation, Beecham Pharmaceuticals
    1980-1989 and Senior Vice-president for Drug Discovery 1990-92 SmithKline Beecham
    Dr Roland Salmon, MB BS, MRCGP, FFPH, Former Director, Communicable Disease Surveillance Centre Wales
    Dr Alan Mordue, MBChB, FFPH. Retired Consultant in Public Health Medicine & Epidemiology
    Dr Gerry Quinn, PhD. Postdoctoral researcher in microbiology and immunology
    Katherine MacGilchrist, BSc (Hons), MSc, CEO/Systematic Review Director, Epidemica Ltd.
    Mr James Royle, MBChB, FRCS, MMedEd, Colorectal surgeon
    Dr Livia Tossici-Bolt, PhD, Clinical Scientist
    Dr Elizabeth Evans MA(Cantab), MBBS, DRCOG, Retired Doctor
    Dr Rohaan Seth, Bsc (hons), MBChB (hons), MRCGP, Retired General Practitioner
    Dr Emma Brierly, MRCGP, General Practitioner
    Dr Geoffrey Maidment, MD, FRCP, retired consultant physician
    Mr Malcolm Loudon, MBChB, MD, FRCSEd, FRCS(Gen Surg), MIHM,VR, Consultant Surgeon
    Dr Alan Black, MBBS, MSc, DipPharmMed, retired pharmaceutical physician
    Dr David Cartland, MBChB, BMedSci, General practitioner
    Dr Peter Chan, BM, MRCS, MRCGP, NLP, General Practitioner, Functional medicine practitioner
    Dr Greta Mushet, MBChB, MRCPsych, retired Consultant Psychiatrist in Psychotherapy
    Dr Samuel McBride, MBBCh, BAO, BSc, MSc, MRCP (UK) FRCEM, FRCP (Edinburgh), NHS Emergency Medicine & geriatrics
    Mr Ian F Comaish, MA, BM BCh, FRCOphth, FRANZCO, Consultant ophthalmologist
    Dr Branko Latinkic, BSc, PhD, Reader in Biosciences
    Dr Helen Westwood MBChB MRCGP DCH DRCOG, General Practitioner
    Michael Cockayne, MSc, PGDip, SCPHNOH, BA, RN, Occupational Health Practitioner
    Mr Anthony Hinton, MBChB, FRCS, Consultant ENT surgeon, London
    Dr Tanya Klymenko, PhD, FHEA, FIBMS, Senior lecturer in Biomedical Sciences
    Michael Cockayne, MSc, PGDip, SCPHNOH, BA, RN, Occupational Health Practitioner
    Dr Carmen Wheatley, DPhil, Orthomolecular Oncology
    Dr Charles Lane OBE, Molecular Biologist
    Mr Angus Robertson BSc (Med. Sci.) MB ChB  FRCS(Ed) FFSEM(UK) Consultant Orthopaedic Surgeon
    Dr Michael D Bell, MBChB MRCGP Retired General Practitioner
    Dr Jayne LM Donegan, MBBS, DRCOG, DCH, DFFP, MRCGP, General Practitioner
    Dr David Critchley, BSc, PhD in Pharmacology, 32 years’ experience in Pharmaceutical R&D
    Dr Keith Johnson, BA, D.Phil (Oxon), IP Consultant for Diagnostic Testing
    Julie Annakin, RN, Immunisation Specialist Nurse
    Rev Dr William J U Philip MB ChB, MRCP, BD, Senior Minister The Tron Church, Glasgow, formerly physician specialising in cardiology
    Dr Jonathan Rogers MBChB (Bristol) MRCGP DRCOG Retired NHS General Practitioner
    Dr Pauline Jones, MB BS, Retired General Practitioner
    Dr Emma Brierly, MBBS, MRCGP, General Practitioner
    Dr Elizabeth Burton, MB ChB, Retired General Practitioner
    Dr Franziska Meuschel, MD, ND, PhD, LFHom, BSEM, Nutritional, Environmental and Integrated Medicine
    Dr Michael Bazlinton, MBCHB MRCGP DCH
    Dr Holly Young, BSc, MBChB, MRCP, Consultant Palliative Care Medicine
    Dr Julian Tomkinson, MBChB, MRCGP, General Practitioner, GP Trainer, PCME
    Dr David Bramble, MBChB, MRCPsych, MD, Consultant Psychiatrist
    Dr Christina Peers, MBBS, DRCOG, DFSRH, FFSRH, Menopause Specialist
    Dr Chris Newton, PhD, Biochemist working in immuno-metabolism
    Dr Christopher Exley, PhD, FRSB, Bioinoganic Chemist
    Dr Sarah Myhill, MBBS, Retired General Practitioner
    Jessica Righart, Senior Critical Care Scientist
    Dr Michael D Bell, MBChB, MRCGP, retired General Practitioner
    Dr Angharad Powell, MBChB, General Practitioner
    Dr Stephen Ting, MB CHB, MRCP, PhD, Consultant Physician
    Mr Ahmad K Malik, FRCS (Tr & Orth), Dip Med Sport, Consultant Trauma & Orthopaedic Surgeon
    Dr Catherine Hatton, MBChB, General Practitioner
    Dr Kulvinder S. Manik MBChB, MRCGP, MA(Cantab), LLM, Gray’s Inn
    Dr Stefanie Williams, MD, Dermatologist
    Kim Bull, Foundation Degree in Paramedic Science, Paramedic
    Margaret Moss, MA (Cantab), CBiol, MRSB, Director, The Nutrition and Allergy Clinic, Cheshire
    Dr Haleema Sheikh, MRCGP, General Practitioner
    James Cook, NHS Registered Nurse, Bachelor of Nursing (Hons), Master of Public Health (MPH)
    Dr Jonathan Engler, MBChB, LlB (Hons), DipPharmMed
    Dr Clare Craig, BMBCh, FRCPath, Pathologist
    Dr David Bell, MBBS, PhD, FRCP(UK), Public Health Physician
    Dr Ruth Wilde, MB BCh, MRCEM, AFMCP, Integrative & Functional Medicine Doctor
    John Collis, RN, Specialist Nurse Practitioner
    Dr Damien Downing, MBBS, MRSB, private physician
    Mr Lasantha Wijesinghe, FRCS, Consultant Vascular Surgeon
    Dr Claire Mottram, BSc Hons, MBChB, Doctor in General Practice
    Dr Ali Haggett, Mental health community work, 3rd sector, former lecturer in the history of medicine
    Dr Jenny Goodman, MA, MBChB, Ecological Medicine
    Suzanne Tomkinson BSc MSc CSci FIBMS Senior Biomedical Scientist (Clinical Biochemistry)
    Dr Felicity Lillingstone, IMD DHS PhD ANP, Doctor, Urgent Care, Research Fellow
    Dr Marco Chiesa, MD, FRCPsych, Consultant Psychiatrist & Visiting Professor, UCL
    Anna Phillips, RSCN, BSc Hons, Clinical Lead Trainer Clinical Systems (Paediatric Intensive Care)
    Dr Jason Lester, MRCP, FRCR, Consultant Clinical Oncologist
    Dr Sue de Lacy MBBS MRCGP AFMCP UK Integrative Medicine Doctor
    Dr David Morris, MBChB, MRCP (UK), General Practitioner
    Dr Andrew Isaac, MB BCh, Physician, retired
    Dr Renee Hoenderkamp, General Practitioner
    Dr Noel Thomas, MA, MBChB, DObsRCOG, DTM&H, MFHom, Retired Doctor
    Dr Fiona Martindale, MBChB, MRCGP, General Practitioner in out of hours
    Dr Zac Cox, BDS, LCPH, Dental Practitioner
    Mr Colin Natali, BSc(hons) MBBS, FRCS (Orth), Consultant Spinal Surgeon
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ghostmaker on February 15, 2022, 09:50:22 AM
Welp, Justin 'Fidel Jr.' Trudeau pulled the trigger and activated the Emergencies Act.

Not really a surprise, though. He was looking weaker by the minute. What's interesting is just how far reaching it is -- allowing banks to freeze any assets if your social media shows support for the protests, for example. So much for free speech in Canada, eh?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on February 15, 2022, 09:56:22 AM
Welp, Justin 'Fidel Jr.' Trudeau pulled the trigger and activated the Emergencies Act.

Not really a surprise, though. He was looking weaker by the minute. What's interesting is just how far reaching it is -- allowing banks to freeze any assets if your social media shows support for the protests, for example. So much for free speech in Canada, eh?

  Well, he gets knocked out by punches that miss him.  I am not too shocked he pulled the martial law card.  Free speech and the right to assemble is strongly tied to what you assemble for.   Burn a building...mostly peaceful protest, honk a horn...domestic terrorism.   

   I give him this though, had this happened in the USA, that trigger gets pulled a lot quicker.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Zirunel on February 15, 2022, 01:17:14 PM
Welp, Justin 'Fidel Jr.' Trudeau pulled the trigger and activated the Emergencies Act.

Not really a surprise, though. He was looking weaker by the minute. What's interesting is just how far reaching it is -- allowing banks to freeze any assets if your social media shows support for the protests, for example. So much for free speech in Canada, eh?

Yeah the Emergencies Act is pretty expansive. Not martial law, not unlimited powers, but expansive. I'm pretty sure no one could have their bank accounts frozen just for tweeting support, you need to be transferring financial or material support for that to happen, but still...it's never been invoked before so who knows where this goes.

I'll agree Trudeau has looked weak, although municipal and especially provincial  governments have as well. Something like 75% of Canadians want the blockades and occupations ended decisively, by force if necessary, and all levels of government and law enforcement, including federal, have looked impotent to deliver that.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on February 15, 2022, 01:25:32 PM
Welp, Justin 'Fidel Jr.' Trudeau pulled the trigger and activated the Emergencies Act.

Not really a surprise, though. He was looking weaker by the minute. What's interesting is just how far reaching it is -- allowing banks to freeze any assets if your social media shows support for the protests, for example. So much for free speech in Canada, eh?

Yeah the Emergencies Act is pretty expansive. Not martial law, not unlimited powers, but expansive. I'm pretty sure no one could have their bank accounts frozen just for tweeting support, you need to be transferring financial or material support for that to happen, but still...it's never been invoked before so who knows where this goes.

I'll agree Trudeau has looked weak, although municipal and especially provincial  governments have as well. Something like 75% of Canadians want the blockades and occupations ended decisively, by force if necessary, and all levels of government and law enforcement, including federal, have looked impotent to deliver that.

  Luckily he did say it will only be for a very short time, I bet no more than 2 weeks........
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Zirunel on February 15, 2022, 01:45:55 PM
Welp, Justin 'Fidel Jr.' Trudeau pulled the trigger and activated the Emergencies Act.

Not really a surprise, though. He was looking weaker by the minute. What's interesting is just how far reaching it is -- allowing banks to freeze any assets if your social media shows support for the protests, for example. So much for free speech in Canada, eh?

Yeah the Emergencies Act is pretty expansive. Not martial law, not unlimited powers, but expansive. I'm pretty sure no one could have their bank accounts frozen just for tweeting support, you need to be transferring financial or material support for that to happen, but still...it's never been invoked before so who knows where this goes.

I'll agree Trudeau has looked weak, although municipal and especially provincial  governments have as well. Something like 75% of Canadians want the blockades and occupations ended decisively, by force if necessary, and all levels of government and law enforcement, including federal, have looked impotent to deliver that.

  Luckily he did say it will only be for a very short time, I bet no more than 2 weeks........

It expires in 30 days.

Parliament already has to approve this within 7 days, which it looks like he has the votes for.

Parliament can also grant an extension, but I doubt he has the votes for that.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on February 15, 2022, 01:56:16 PM
Welp, Justin 'Fidel Jr.' Trudeau pulled the trigger and activated the Emergencies Act.

Not really a surprise, though. He was looking weaker by the minute. What's interesting is just how far reaching it is -- allowing banks to freeze any assets if your social media shows support for the protests, for example. So much for free speech in Canada, eh?

Yeah the Emergencies Act is pretty expansive. Not martial law, not unlimited powers, but expansive. I'm pretty sure no one could have their bank accounts frozen just for tweeting support, you need to be transferring financial or material support for that to happen, but still...it's never been invoked before so who knows where this goes.

I'll agree Trudeau has looked weak, although municipal and especially provincial  governments have as well. Something like 75% of Canadians want the blockades and occupations ended decisively, by force if necessary, and all levels of government and law enforcement, including federal, have looked impotent to deliver that.

  Luckily he did say it will only be for a very short time, I bet no more than 2 weeks........

It expires in 30 days.

Parliament already has to approve this within 7 days, which it looks like he has the votes for.

Parliament can also grant an extension, but I doubt he has the votes for that.

  Nice to know Castro Jr has a limit on how long he can wield that power.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on February 15, 2022, 02:23:15 PM
Wales is the first in the UK to "offer" the jab to small children: https://www.gbnews.uk/news/wales-to-be-first-uk-country-to-offer-covid-vaccine-to-all-five-to-11-year-olds-minister-says/227016

Remember months ago when I said this was the direction of travel, and some of you muppets laughed?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Zirunel on February 15, 2022, 03:05:52 PM
Wales is the first in the UK to "offer" the jab to small children: https://www.gbnews.uk/news/wales-to-be-first-uk-country-to-offer-covid-vaccine-to-all-five-to-11-year-olds-minister-says/227016

Remember months ago when I said this was the direction of travel, and some of you muppets laughed?

No. I don't remember that. Can you show us any posts from people laughing at your prediction?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on February 15, 2022, 03:07:59 PM
One positive result of Trudeau using emergency powers to seize protestors' assets and lock them out of their bank accounts is that a number of leftists like Vaush and ShoeOnHead think it's going too far.

Of course, freezing someone's cash seems less an invasion than forcing people to inject something into their bodies or sending in the military to quash protesters, but consistency is the hobgoblin of little breadtubers. It's a comment on the world we live in that its refreshing to see even a half-assed and inconsistent example of someone standing on principle and not just reflexively supporting their tribe.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Zelen on February 15, 2022, 06:41:23 PM
Something like 75% of Canadians want the blockades and occupations ended decisively, by force if necessary, and all levels of government and law enforcement, including federal, have looked impotent to deliver that.

This is a fake statistic. (And, lets be honest -- Most of these polls are intended to sway more than they are to report.)
The survey is done by Angus Reid. If you want to register your opinion on the Freedom protests, you must register an account on their website and then participate in the survey. There's no way this is a representative sample, simply by the nature of what is required to participate, and presenting it as such is actively misleading.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Zelen on February 15, 2022, 06:47:55 PM
Welp, Justin 'Fidel Jr.' Trudeau pulled the trigger and activated the Emergencies Act.

Not really a surprise, though. He was looking weaker by the minute. What's interesting is just how far reaching it is -- allowing banks to freeze any assets if your social media shows support for the protests, for example. So much for free speech in Canada, eh?

What this means effectively is that any "protest" that doesn't result in people losing their bank accounts is actually a state-sanctioned action.

For example: Black Lives Matter & Antifa protests, or Church burnings in 2020 & 2021. We can now say with certainty that these were state-sanctioned actions. The tens of millions* of dollars in property damage, physical injuries, deaths, and denial of basic rights caused by these "protests" was actually at the behest of the government.

* I'm speaking only about Canada here, in the US the figure is easily billions or tens of billions.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Zirunel on February 15, 2022, 08:01:59 PM
Something like 75% of Canadians want the blockades and occupations ended decisively, by force if necessary, and all levels of government and law enforcement, including federal, have looked impotent to deliver that.

This is a fake statistic. (And, lets be honest -- Most of these polls are intended to sway more than they are to report.)
The survey is done by Angus Reid. If you want to register your opinion on the Freedom protests, you must register an account on their website and then participate in the survey. There's no way this is a representative sample, simply by the nature of what is required to participate, and presenting it as such is actively misleading.

It's not a "fake" statistic exactly. Yes it's a poll result, yes it's Angus Reid, and like many pollsters nowadays they try to build a representative sample by selecting from a (very) large panel of volunteer respondents rather than cold-calling landlines. So yes, every respondent has chosen to register with Angus Reid. That doesn't necessarily mean it isn't representative. It may or may not be, as with a phone poll (Incidentally, respondents can only participate in a poll when they are invited, so you can't just join and immediately expect to participate in a particular poll you might feel strongly about).

Anywho, yes the Angus Reid poll is the most recent, but look at any other poll from the last two weeks...Leger, Ipsos, Maru... The precise numbers vary (and attitudes may shift over two weeks) , but clearly there is little support for these blockades and occupations.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on February 18, 2022, 06:49:59 AM
No. I don't remember that. Can you show us any posts from people laughing at your prediction?

No, I'm not doing your research for you. You have access to the forum, off you pop, have a look.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on February 18, 2022, 06:51:08 AM
Peak clownworld: https://www.glasgowtimes.co.uk/news/19931641.covid-data-will-not-published-concerns-misrepresented-anti-vaxxers/

Scotland will no longer publish official statistics with the vaccination status of covid hospitalisations and deaths, because it's plain to anyone who looks at them that the jabs don't do a fucking thing.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ratman_tf on February 18, 2022, 09:27:54 AM
Peak clownworld: https://www.glasgowtimes.co.uk/news/19931641.covid-data-will-not-published-concerns-misrepresented-anti-vaxxers/

Scotland will no longer publish official statistics with the vaccination status of covid hospitalisations and deaths, because it's plain to anyone who looks at them that the jabs don't do a fucking thing.

Those damn "anti-vaxxers!" They ruin everything by asking for evidence and information!
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on February 18, 2022, 09:47:59 AM
Somebody should create a variation of the anarchy symbol, except with a crossed-out V instead of an A. It could be a symbol of the resistance, or a badge of shame, depending on whether you think totalitarianism is the best thing since sliced bread.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on February 18, 2022, 09:59:38 AM
  The thing is with all this, is these people have largely made numbers, statistics and "science" no longer relevant.   When the people handing out the information (big pharma, FDA, CDC, WHO, Federal Government in general,  and NIH for example) are HEAVILY compromised with agendas beyond the public health and what is best (money seems to be the massive motivator for lots of the decision making here) it makes a lot of those words just noise.  If you destroy your credibility, you lose any ability to present data forever, no matter how accurate. 

   Fallout from this is going to be permanent.   I really do not care what data comes out to support or condemn the vaccine or in between anymore.  EVERYONE in some way is motivated beyond just telling the truth about it.  This is a case where I am going to have to default to my own experiences and that of people I know personally (regarding vaccines, Covid's dangers, etc) and shut out the other stuff, because it could be 100 percent factual, or complete bullshit.  This is not a good scenario at all for the Federal Government. 
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on February 18, 2022, 10:49:54 AM
  The thing is with all this, is these people have largely made numbers, statistics and "science" no longer relevant.   When the people handing out the information (big pharma, FDA, CDC, WHO, Federal Government in general,  and NIH for example) are HEAVILY compromised with agendas beyond the public health and what is best (money seems to be the massive motivator for lots of the decision making here) it makes a lot of those words just noise.  If you destroy your credibility, you lose any ability to present data forever, no matter how accurate. 

   Fallout from this is going to be permanent.   I really do not care what data comes out to support or condemn the vaccine or in between anymore.  EVERYONE in some way is motivated beyond just telling the truth about it.  This is a case where I am going to have to default to my own experiences and that of people I know personally (regarding vaccines, Covid's dangers, etc) and shut out the other stuff, because it could be 100 percent factual, or complete bullshit.  This is not a good scenario at all for the Federal Government.
Combine this with your other post about not wanting to be around others with differing worldviews, and you're effectively saying you seem to live in closed off echo chambers. That's rather pathetic.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on February 18, 2022, 10:56:17 AM
  The thing is with all this, is these people have largely made numbers, statistics and "science" no longer relevant.   When the people handing out the information (big pharma, FDA, CDC, WHO, Federal Government in general,  and NIH for example) are HEAVILY compromised with agendas beyond the public health and what is best (money seems to be the massive motivator for lots of the decision making here) it makes a lot of those words just noise.  If you destroy your credibility, you lose any ability to present data forever, no matter how accurate. 

   Fallout from this is going to be permanent.   I really do not care what data comes out to support or condemn the vaccine or in between anymore.  EVERYONE in some way is motivated beyond just telling the truth about it.  This is a case where I am going to have to default to my own experiences and that of people I know personally (regarding vaccines, Covid's dangers, etc) and shut out the other stuff, because it could be 100 percent factual, or complete bullshit.  This is not a good scenario at all for the Federal Government.
Combine this with your other post about not wanting to be around others with differing worldviews, and you're effectively saying you seem to live in closed off echo chambers. That's rather pathetic.

   In my other post I said radically different world view.  You can look up radical if you like and that will help you understand what I said, because it seems you missed a word there.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on February 18, 2022, 11:03:42 AM
  The thing is with all this, is these people have largely made numbers, statistics and "science" no longer relevant.   When the people handing out the information (big pharma, FDA, CDC, WHO, Federal Government in general,  and NIH for example) are HEAVILY compromised with agendas beyond the public health and what is best (money seems to be the massive motivator for lots of the decision making here) it makes a lot of those words just noise.  If you destroy your credibility, you lose any ability to present data forever, no matter how accurate. 

   Fallout from this is going to be permanent.   I really do not care what data comes out to support or condemn the vaccine or in between anymore.  EVERYONE in some way is motivated beyond just telling the truth about it.  This is a case where I am going to have to default to my own experiences and that of people I know personally (regarding vaccines, Covid's dangers, etc) and shut out the other stuff, because it could be 100 percent factual, or complete bullshit.  This is not a good scenario at all for the Federal Government.
Combine this with your other post about not wanting to be around others with differing worldviews, and you're effectively saying you seem to live in closed off echo chambers. That's rather pathetic.

   In my other post I said radically different world view.  You can look up radical if you like and that will help you understand what I said, because it seems you missed a word there.
Consider thst, if you're actually the radical one, then from your perspective, those with non-radical worldviews are the ones you'll be avoiding...and you won't know it because you'll be sealing yourself off from them into your echo chamber.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on February 18, 2022, 11:09:54 AM
  The thing is with all this, is these people have largely made numbers, statistics and "science" no longer relevant.   When the people handing out the information (big pharma, FDA, CDC, WHO, Federal Government in general,  and NIH for example) are HEAVILY compromised with agendas beyond the public health and what is best (money seems to be the massive motivator for lots of the decision making here) it makes a lot of those words just noise.  If you destroy your credibility, you lose any ability to present data forever, no matter how accurate. 

   Fallout from this is going to be permanent.   I really do not care what data comes out to support or condemn the vaccine or in between anymore.  EVERYONE in some way is motivated beyond just telling the truth about it.  This is a case where I am going to have to default to my own experiences and that of people I know personally (regarding vaccines, Covid's dangers, etc) and shut out the other stuff, because it could be 100 percent factual, or complete bullshit.  This is not a good scenario at all for the Federal Government.
Combine this with your other post about not wanting to be around others with differing worldviews, and you're effectively saying you seem to live in closed off echo chambers. That's rather pathetic.

   In my other post I said radically different world view.  You can look up radical if you like and that will help you understand what I said, because it seems you missed a word there.
Consider thst, if you're actually the radical one, then from your perspective, those with non-radical worldviews are the ones you'll be avoiding...and you won't know it because you'll be sealing yourself off from them into your echo chamber.

  If I am radical, I have a shit load of company.  Lots of them on both sides of the political spectrum.  So am I radical? 
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ghostmaker on February 18, 2022, 11:33:50 AM
Consider also that Happyderp profits off the current hysteria.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: 3catcircus on February 18, 2022, 11:49:17 AM
  The thing is with all this, is these people have largely made numbers, statistics and "science" no longer relevant.   When the people handing out the information (big pharma, FDA, CDC, WHO, Federal Government in general,  and NIH for example) are HEAVILY compromised with agendas beyond the public health and what is best (money seems to be the massive motivator for lots of the decision making here) it makes a lot of those words just noise.  If you destroy your credibility, you lose any ability to present data forever, no matter how accurate. 

   Fallout from this is going to be permanent.   I really do not care what data comes out to support or condemn the vaccine or in between anymore.  EVERYONE in some way is motivated beyond just telling the truth about it.  This is a case where I am going to have to default to my own experiences and that of people I know personally (regarding vaccines, Covid's dangers, etc) and shut out the other stuff, because it could be 100 percent factual, or complete bullshit.  This is not a good scenario at all for the Federal Government.

The only way forward is to purge society of anyone with any vested interest in keeping the pandemic profit train going.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: SHARK on February 18, 2022, 11:52:40 AM
Greetings!

It is actually very refreshing and nice to live in an area of the country where I am surrounded by people that share my world view. This idea that you somehow need to be around people that have different world views is very much overrated. Most of that just raises your blood pressure, and eventually you see the fallout of the influence of people having "different world views". They often seek to change your school system, your gun laws, criminal justice laws, and on and on. No thanks.

I think it is much better to be in an environment where people share my worldview--freedom, law and order, gun rights, loving the Bible, self-reliance, patriotism, and independence.

I have interacted with plenty of people that have "different world views" from me. For the most part, fuck them. I'm not interested in listening to cock-sucking Liberal Marxists. I used to debate their terrible and evil "world views" over 20 years ago. Nothing about their "world view" has changed. If anything, it has gotten worse. Like rotten and spoiled food, they need to be thrown the fuck out and fed to the pigs.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on February 18, 2022, 12:11:56 PM
Some degree of different opinions are healthy, but if you generally share a incompatible core view of the world, then your just gonna make new enemies, not new friends, or even opinions.

I tried going to conservative group meetings, but it was just a circlejerk. So I went to a gun club instead and it was more about things with events instead of just validating our own beliefs.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on February 18, 2022, 12:35:16 PM
Consider also that Happyderp profits off the current hysteria.
Please elaborate on how I profit from the current hysteria.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: jhkim on February 18, 2022, 03:28:58 PM
I really do not care what data comes out to support or condemn the vaccine or in between anymore.  EVERYONE in some way is motivated beyond just telling the truth about it.  This is a case where I am going to have to default to my own experiences and that of people I know personally (regarding vaccines, Covid's dangers, etc) and shut out the other stuff, because it could be 100 percent factual, or complete bullshit.  This is not a good scenario at all for the Federal Government.

First of all, I am glad that you recognize that everyone is motivated. Far too many people only believe the stuff their own side is feeding, based on the politics. So from my view, you're doing better than many people out there.

I do think that rejecting all sources is going too far. I feel that while everyone always can have ulterior motives, there are institutions that  have a better track record than others. That doesn't mean they're fully trustworthy, but one should weight different sources differently. In an off-topic trend in the RPG forum, you said to me recently:

You might want to tell the very openly leftist Jeff Bezos that.  Or the openly left Google, who fire you for the wrong opinion.  Or Facebook, where the same happens.  Or we can discuss how Google and Facebook use H1B visas to get lots of bug testing from chinese and Indian coders while paying well under market rates.  Also todays leftists are not liberals.  They do not understand liberty.  Liberals are for tomorrow.  I think you are a liberal, but you are soon to be right of center.   Let's stop playing the what happened years ago game.  Let's talk about today.

For me, history and especially the track record of institutions is very important. I think our view of today based on the latest headlines is often completely out of perspective, and information about the past is more reliable.

In track record -- corporations have a terrible track record of telling the truth. I think of Google, Amazon, and Facebook the same way I think of other big corporations like Exxon and JPMorgan. Purely by structure, they are greedy and untrustworthy. That Jeff Bezos spits out left-sounding rhetoric doesn't mean that I trust him. When I look at his company's policies, they are not progressive in the slightest - and most of my liberal friends are in agreement. These companies are trying to win liberal support in order to dodge actual liberal policies - like regulation of their business, paying their fair share of taxes, and allowing unions.

For years as a liberal, I've spoken against corporate dominance - while conservatives have pushed for less corporate regulation and lower corporate taxes. Now as those policies have come home to roost with massive financial inequality and corporate dominance of everything - corporations are trying to avoid actual anti-corporate policy and spouting some token liberal statements.

But there are some things that are better. I don't listen to drug company marketing, but I do listen to my personal doctor (as well as my friends and family who are doctors). I don't have any background or training in medicine, so that's while I am skeptical and ask questions, I do value their input. I know you've recently had tendon surgery, oggsmash - I hope your recovery is going well. I think modern medicine has a good track record - not perfect, but better than many other sources.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on February 18, 2022, 03:43:22 PM
  Tendon surgery and Covid with no vaxx.   I never doubted modern medicine or my doctors.  I do understand there is a shitload of political and financial pressure on doctors for that vaxx. 


   Covid was not fun, but was no where near bad.   But I always knew it would not be. 

  But thanks for going on again about where you stood on something years ago.  I would have never expected it.

  I noticed you skipped where they are firing people for disagreeing with that left wing stuff they like to speak.  So is it your point that they are really right wing and that is why they fire people for disagreeing with left wing dogma in public?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Zirunel on February 20, 2022, 07:58:51 AM
No. I don't remember that. Can you show us any posts from people laughing at your prediction?

No, I'm not doing your research for you. You have access to the forum, off you pop, have a look.

Nah. If you can't back up your assertions I'm not going to do it for you
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on February 20, 2022, 08:55:55 AM
Nah. If you can't back up your assertions I'm not going to do it for you

You appear to be under the mistaken impression I could give a flying fuck what you think.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on February 20, 2022, 06:10:44 PM
Our triple-jabbed monarch caught covid off someone who was triple-jabbed, and not a single question about the efficacy of the "vaccine" in the media.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: GeekyBugle on February 20, 2022, 06:32:21 PM
Our triple-jabbed monarch caught covid off someone who was triple-jabbed, and not a single question about the efficacy of the "vaccine" in the media.

How dare you question Teh Science TM!?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: 3catcircus on February 21, 2022, 08:34:07 AM
Our triple-jabbed monarch caught covid off someone who was triple-jabbed, and not a single question about the efficacy of the "vaccine" in the media.

Stop questioning the truth, knave!

Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on February 21, 2022, 09:08:44 AM
Our triple-jabbed monarch caught covid off someone who was triple-jabbed, and not a single question about the efficacy of the "vaccine" in the media.

Stop questioning the truth, knave!

  Wait till WW3 pops off.  Can not wait to see the clamp down on questioning truth when that hits.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Shasarak on February 22, 2022, 04:36:51 PM
Our triple-jabbed monarch caught covid off someone who was triple-jabbed, and not a single question about the efficacy of the "vaccine" in the media.

Dont worry, Ivermectin to the rescue!

Not for you though peasant.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: moonsweeper on February 22, 2022, 04:56:15 PM
Our triple-jabbed monarch caught covid off someone who was triple-jabbed, and not a single question about the efficacy of the "vaccine" in the media.

Dont worry, Ivermectin to the rescue!

Not for you though peasant.

Now, now.  The media already clarified that it was just 'stock' footage.... ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Shasarak on February 22, 2022, 06:45:52 PM
Our triple-jabbed monarch caught covid off someone who was triple-jabbed, and not a single question about the efficacy of the "vaccine" in the media.

Dont worry, Ivermectin to the rescue!

Not for you though peasant.

Now, now.  The media already clarified that it was just 'stock' footage.... ;D ;D ;D

Stock footage for me but not for thee
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Shasarak on February 24, 2022, 10:55:57 PM
I never imagined that the NZ Courts would turn against the Government

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/not-demonstrably-justified-high-court-upholds-challenge-to-police-and-nzdf-vaccination-mandates-terminations-suspended/LMAUM7LZWV6FFQWAKKJFLKYLIE/ (https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/not-demonstrably-justified-high-court-upholds-challenge-to-police-and-nzdf-vaccination-mandates-terminations-suspended/LMAUM7LZWV6FFQWAKKJFLKYLIE/)
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: dkabq on February 27, 2022, 08:15:47 AM
From the No Agenda postcast:
https://noagendaassets.com/enc/1628454543.058_covidvaccineconfusionfromtiktok.mp3
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on March 02, 2022, 05:17:24 AM
From Pfizer's trial data they wanted 55 years to trickle out: https://phmpt.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/11/5.3.6-postmarketing-experience.pdf

Over 1,200 deaths in the three month trial (see table 1 on page 7) and yet this was allowed to proceed?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on March 06, 2022, 09:51:25 AM
The Pfizer jab isn't a vaccine, but it certainly is gene therapy: https://www.mdpi.com/1467-3045/44/3/73

But the liars told us this wouldn't happen! I suppose we should thank you lab rats for volunteering to take part in the experimental trials. Did you know when you got jabbed you would be allowing your DNA to be altered? No one has the first clue what the medium or long term effects of that might be, but you're about to find out.

Of course this only applies to those stuck with Pfizer or Moderna.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on April 02, 2022, 03:20:48 PM
Latest jab stats that they want swept under the carpet because Russian Man Bad:

(https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/0baa9bdcd1516eecd5654ce62ecb2f283cf428f9755359f96153fa19e7ea407c.jpg?w=600&h=456)

Utterly fucking useless. You were conned, are you willing to admit it yet?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: dkabq on April 02, 2022, 03:49:11 PM
Latest jab stats that they want swept under the carpet because Russian Man Bad:

(https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/0baa9bdcd1516eecd5654ce62ecb2f283cf428f9755359f96153fa19e7ea407c.jpg?w=600&h=456)

Utterly fucking useless. You were conned, are you willing to admit it yet?

I believe that in the US the data are flipped (more unvaxxed getting, being hospitalized, and dying of/with covid).

It would be interesting to see the data normalized by the respective unvaxxed/vaxxed populations.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on April 02, 2022, 06:20:48 PM
I believe that in the US the data are flipped (more unvaxxed getting, being hospitalized, and dying of/with covid).

It would be interesting to see the data normalized by the respective unvaxxed/vaxxed populations.

The UK is at over 80% vaccination of adults, if the figures are to be believed. All the other highly-vaccinated countries look the same as the UK.

When the US reaches this level, I have no doubt your stats will look like this too.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on April 02, 2022, 07:24:55 PM
I believe that in the US the data are flipped (more unvaxxed getting, being hospitalized, and dying of/with covid).

It would be interesting to see the data normalized by the respective unvaxxed/vaxxed populations.

The UK is at over 80% vaccination of adults, if the figures are to be believed. All the other highly-vaccinated countries look the same as the UK.

When the US reaches this level, I have no doubt your stats will look like this too.

  The USA has all the vaxxed adults it is going to get IMO.   I think anyone who wanted it got it, people who did not get it, will not get it.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on April 04, 2022, 06:22:42 AM
  The USA has all the vaxxed adults it is going to get IMO.   I think anyone who wanted it got it, people who did not get it, will not get it.

The confounding factor when comparing the US to the UK is that your population is, in general, even more unhealthy than ours. Obesity in particular maps with worse covid outcomes, irrespective of vaccination status.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on April 04, 2022, 07:41:45 AM
  The USA has all the vaxxed adults it is going to get IMO.   I think anyone who wanted it got it, people who did not get it, will not get it.

The confounding factor when comparing the US to the UK is that your population is, in general, even more unhealthy than ours. Obesity in particular maps with worse covid outcomes, irrespective of vaccination status.

    Well, obesity also tends to signal a litany of other health issues, the USA has so many fat people, that they have fat people who are otherwise fairly healthy despite being fat.  So having a bunch of them does seem to make stats get jumbled.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Fheredin on April 04, 2022, 08:47:46 AM
I want to interject with two factors:


Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on April 04, 2022, 05:14:12 PM
  The USA has all the vaxxed adults it is going to get IMO.   I think anyone who wanted it got it, people who did not get it, will not get it.

The confounding factor when comparing the US to the UK is that your population is, in general, even more unhealthy than ours. Obesity in particular maps with worse covid outcomes, irrespective of vaccination status.

Obesity ALSO maps with political preference in America. The more conservative the area, the fatter they are.  In fact, from a study on the topic conducted pre-covid:

"residents of counties that voted Republican in the last presidential election had increased median incidence cardiovascular disease (11% median difference), diabetes (21%), obesity (13%), self-harm (22%), decreased median life expectancy (2%), and physical activity (19%) compared to residents of counties that voted Democrat. Collectively, these data indicates that counties that voted Republican in the 2016 election had very different health outcomes than those that voted Democratic, and generally had a greater proportion of their residents in poor health."

And that follows post-covid. People living in counties that voted heavily for Donald Trump during the last presidential election have been nearly three times as likely to die from COVID-19 as those who live in areas that went for now-President Biden.

But let's not talk about that. It doesn't fit the agenda.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on April 04, 2022, 05:18:20 PM
  The USA has all the vaxxed adults it is going to get IMO.   I think anyone who wanted it got it, people who did not get it, will not get it.

The confounding factor when comparing the US to the UK is that your population is, in general, even more unhealthy than ours. Obesity in particular maps with worse covid outcomes, irrespective of vaccination status.

Obesity ALSO maps with political preference in America. The more conservative the area, the fatter they are.  In fact, from a study on the topic, "residents of counties that voted Republican in the last presidential election had increased median incidence cardiovascular disease (11% median difference), diabetes (21%), obesity (13%), self-harm (22%), decreased median life expectancy (2%), and physical activity (19%) compared to residents of counties that voted Democrat. Collectively, these data indicates that counties that voted Republican in the 2016 election had very different health outcomes than those that voted Democratic, and generally had a greater proportion of their residents in poor health."

But let's not talk about that. It doesn't fit the agenda.

    I would not drill down too deeply on that, or you might find out something that is not going to fit your agenda.   Unless you are going to tell me that Mississippi has high rates of heart disease and obesity because the state is red on a political map.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on April 04, 2022, 05:24:45 PM
  Detroit, Philadelphia, and Houston.  Fattest cities in the country, and all well known Red colored, Trump Strongholds.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: dkabq on April 04, 2022, 05:27:21 PM
  The USA has all the vaxxed adults it is going to get IMO.   I think anyone who wanted it got it, people who did not get it, will not get it.

The confounding factor when comparing the US to the UK is that your population is, in general, even more unhealthy than ours. Obesity in particular maps with worse covid outcomes, irrespective of vaccination status.

Obesity ALSO maps with political preference in America. The more conservative the area, the fatter they are.  In fact, from a study on the topic conducted pre-covid:

"residents of counties that voted Republican in the last presidential election had increased median incidence cardiovascular disease (11% median difference), diabetes (21%), obesity (13%), self-harm (22%), decreased median life expectancy (2%), and physical activity (19%) compared to residents of counties that voted Democrat. Collectively, these data indicates that counties that voted Republican in the 2016 election had very different health outcomes than those that voted Democratic, and generally had a greater proportion of their residents in poor health."

And that follows post-covid. People living in counties that voted heavily for Donald Trump during the last presidential election have been nearly three times as likely to die from COVID-19 as those who live in areas that went for now-President Biden.

But let's not talk about that. It doesn't fit the agenda.

Citation please. I'd like to read the study.

Or perhaps it is that obesity correlates with poverty,
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3198075/
"In contrast to international trends, people in America who live in the most poverty-dense counties are those most prone to obesity (Fig. 1A)."

and that poverty correlates with more conservative counties.

Univariate analyses provide little real insight into complex data.

And finally, correlation does not imply causation.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: GeekyBugle on April 04, 2022, 05:31:47 PM
  The USA has all the vaxxed adults it is going to get IMO.   I think anyone who wanted it got it, people who did not get it, will not get it.

The confounding factor when comparing the US to the UK is that your population is, in general, even more unhealthy than ours. Obesity in particular maps with worse covid outcomes, irrespective of vaccination status.

Obesity ALSO maps with political preference in America. The more conservative the area, the fatter they are.  In fact, from a study on the topic conducted pre-covid:

"residents of counties that voted Republican in the last presidential election had increased median incidence cardiovascular disease (11% median difference), diabetes (21%), obesity (13%), self-harm (22%), decreased median life expectancy (2%), and physical activity (19%) compared to residents of counties that voted Democrat. Collectively, these data indicates that counties that voted Republican in the 2016 election had very different health outcomes than those that voted Democratic, and generally had a greater proportion of their residents in poor health."

And that follows post-covid. People living in counties that voted heavily for Donald Trump during the last presidential election have been nearly three times as likely to die from COVID-19 as those who live in areas that went for now-President Biden.

But let's not talk about that. It doesn't fit the agenda.

So the study PROVES that those people with those problems voted for the Orange Man Bad?

Or like dkabq says maybe those problems correlate with poverty?

Or we should assume that voting for the Orange Man Bad increases your risks of death/poor health?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ghostmaker on April 04, 2022, 06:51:38 PM
  The USA has all the vaxxed adults it is going to get IMO.   I think anyone who wanted it got it, people who did not get it, will not get it.

The confounding factor when comparing the US to the UK is that your population is, in general, even more unhealthy than ours. Obesity in particular maps with worse covid outcomes, irrespective of vaccination status.

Obesity ALSO maps with political preference in America. The more conservative the area, the fatter they are.  In fact, from a study on the topic conducted pre-covid:

"residents of counties that voted Republican in the last presidential election had increased median incidence cardiovascular disease (11% median difference), diabetes (21%), obesity (13%), self-harm (22%), decreased median life expectancy (2%), and physical activity (19%) compared to residents of counties that voted Democrat. Collectively, these data indicates that counties that voted Republican in the 2016 election had very different health outcomes than those that voted Democratic, and generally had a greater proportion of their residents in poor health."

And that follows post-covid. People living in counties that voted heavily for Donald Trump during the last presidential election have been nearly three times as likely to die from COVID-19 as those who live in areas that went for now-President Biden.

But let's not talk about that. It doesn't fit the agenda.

So the study PROVES that those people with those problems voted for the Orange Man Bad?

Or like dkabq says maybe those problems correlate with poverty?

Or we should assume that voting for the Orange Man Bad increases your risks of death/poor health?
Considering the rhetoric of the left, I would say voting for the bad orange man definitely incurs some personal risk.

I'm looking forward to when that issue equalizes.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: GeekyBugle on April 04, 2022, 08:00:32 PM
  The USA has all the vaxxed adults it is going to get IMO.   I think anyone who wanted it got it, people who did not get it, will not get it.

The confounding factor when comparing the US to the UK is that your population is, in general, even more unhealthy than ours. Obesity in particular maps with worse covid outcomes, irrespective of vaccination status.

Obesity ALSO maps with political preference in America. The more conservative the area, the fatter they are.  In fact, from a study on the topic conducted pre-covid:

"residents of counties that voted Republican in the last presidential election had increased median incidence cardiovascular disease (11% median difference), diabetes (21%), obesity (13%), self-harm (22%), decreased median life expectancy (2%), and physical activity (19%) compared to residents of counties that voted Democrat. Collectively, these data indicates that counties that voted Republican in the 2016 election had very different health outcomes than those that voted Democratic, and generally had a greater proportion of their residents in poor health."

And that follows post-covid. People living in counties that voted heavily for Donald Trump during the last presidential election have been nearly three times as likely to die from COVID-19 as those who live in areas that went for now-President Biden.

But let's not talk about that. It doesn't fit the agenda.

So the study PROVES that those people with those problems voted for the Orange Man Bad?

Or like dkabq says maybe those problems correlate with poverty?

Or we should assume that voting for the Orange Man Bad increases your risks of death/poor health?
Considering the rhetoric of the left, I would say voting for the bad orange man definitely incurs some personal risk.

I'm looking forward to when that issue equalizes.

Especially if they can ambush you and shoot you from the back.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on April 04, 2022, 08:26:16 PM
  The USA has all the vaxxed adults it is going to get IMO.   I think anyone who wanted it got it, people who did not get it, will not get it.

The confounding factor when comparing the US to the UK is that your population is, in general, even more unhealthy than ours. Obesity in particular maps with worse covid outcomes, irrespective of vaccination status.

Obesity ALSO maps with political preference in America. The more conservative the area, the fatter they are.  In fact, from a study on the topic conducted pre-covid:

"residents of counties that voted Republican in the last presidential election had increased median incidence cardiovascular disease (11% median difference), diabetes (21%), obesity (13%), self-harm (22%), decreased median life expectancy (2%), and physical activity (19%) compared to residents of counties that voted Democrat. Collectively, these data indicates that counties that voted Republican in the 2016 election had very different health outcomes than those that voted Democratic, and generally had a greater proportion of their residents in poor health."

And that follows post-covid. People living in counties that voted heavily for Donald Trump during the last presidential election have been nearly three times as likely to die from COVID-19 as those who live in areas that went for now-President Biden.

But let's not talk about that. It doesn't fit the agenda.

So the study PROVES that those people with those problems voted for the Orange Man Bad?

Or like dkabq says maybe those problems correlate with poverty?

Or we should assume that voting for the Orange Man Bad increases your risks of death/poor health?
Considering the rhetoric of the left, I would say voting for the bad orange man definitely incurs some personal risk.

I'm looking forward to when that issue equalizes.

Especially if they can ambush you and shoot you from the back.

  Well they say if you are fighting fair, you are not doing it right.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: jhkim on April 04, 2022, 10:02:35 PM
Obesity ALSO maps with political preference in America. The more conservative the area, the fatter they are.  In fact, from a study on the topic conducted pre-covid:

"residents of counties that voted Republican in the last presidential election had increased median incidence cardiovascular disease (11% median difference), diabetes (21%), obesity (13%), self-harm (22%), decreased median life expectancy (2%), and physical activity (19%) compared to residents of counties that voted Democrat. Collectively, these data indicates that counties that voted Republican in the 2016 election had very different health outcomes than those that voted Democratic, and generally had a greater proportion of their residents in poor health."

And that follows post-covid. People living in counties that voted heavily for Donald Trump during the last presidential election have been nearly three times as likely to die from COVID-19 as those who live in areas that went for now-President Biden.

But let's not talk about that. It doesn't fit the agenda.

Citation please. I'd like to read the study.

Or perhaps it is that obesity correlates with poverty,
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3198075/
"In contrast to international trends, people in America who live in the most poverty-dense counties are those most prone to obesity (Fig. 1A)."

and that poverty correlates with more conservative counties.

Univariate analyses provide little real insight into complex data.

And finally, correlation does not imply causation.

From search, this is the paper:

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0254001
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: dkabq on April 05, 2022, 06:27:10 AM
Obesity ALSO maps with political preference in America. The more conservative the area, the fatter they are.  In fact, from a study on the topic conducted pre-covid:

"residents of counties that voted Republican in the last presidential election had increased median incidence cardiovascular disease (11% median difference), diabetes (21%), obesity (13%), self-harm (22%), decreased median life expectancy (2%), and physical activity (19%) compared to residents of counties that voted Democrat. Collectively, these data indicates that counties that voted Republican in the 2016 election had very different health outcomes than those that voted Democratic, and generally had a greater proportion of their residents in poor health."

And that follows post-covid. People living in counties that voted heavily for Donald Trump during the last presidential election have been nearly three times as likely to die from COVID-19 as those who live in areas that went for now-President Biden.

But let's not talk about that. It doesn't fit the agenda.

Citation please. I'd like to read the study.

Or perhaps it is that obesity correlates with poverty,
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3198075/
"In contrast to international trends, people in America who live in the most poverty-dense counties are those most prone to obesity (Fig. 1A)."

and that poverty correlates with more conservative counties.

Univariate analyses provide little real insight into complex data.

And finally, correlation does not imply causation.

From search, this is the paper:

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0254001

Thanks.

Getting to read the paper let me see that they actually did a multivariate analysis, so I retract that comment.

You have to read all the way to the end (2nd to last paragraph) to get to:
"As our multivariate analysis found, the public health of counties is strongly correlated with the education level, socio-economic status and demographics of counties, making it hard to quantify the independent relationship between each public health variable and voting. Any multivariate analysis with highly correlated variables can be very fragile, and this is certainly true in our case. As previously mentioned, counties that voted Democratic in the 2020 election accounted for 70% of the US GDP. The socioeconomic status of counties will have a major impact on both healthcare access and the health of those living in those counties."






Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Spinachcat on April 14, 2022, 04:24:50 AM
When does the pandemic end?

It will never end.

It ends when We the People refuse to comply.

Mass non-compliance destroys the entire Covidiot system.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on April 14, 2022, 08:50:35 AM
It ends when We the People refuse to comply.

Mass non-compliance destroys the entire Covidiot system.

Most people are bovine cowards, so it will never end.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ghostmaker on April 14, 2022, 09:48:38 AM
It ends when We the People refuse to comply.

Mass non-compliance destroys the entire Covidiot system.

Most people are bovine cowards, so it will never end.
Mmm. You might ask Marie Antoinette how that worked out. Or the Ceausescus.

It's always a mistake to say 'Why worry about something that won't happen?'.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: rgalex on April 14, 2022, 10:32:02 AM
But we just had 2 years of it not happening.  Plenty of people were more than happy to comply.  To just shut up and do what they were told.

They turned on friends and family. Neighbors snitched on neighbors.  You had the rise of the Mask Karen.  People who got abusive and violent if you weren't wearing a mask. 

Police went around enforcing executive orders.  These aren't/weren't laws.  They arrested people and did it with a smile and "just following orders" excuse on their lips.

People with medical conditions that prevented them from complying got shoved aside and treated like second class citizens.  They were told that the government knew better than their personal doctors.

After seeing what has gone on for the last few years I've lost nearly all hope that any meaningful number of people would ever stand up for their rights and not just stand aside and let the government crush them.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: dkabq on April 14, 2022, 10:42:53 AM
But we just had 2 years of it not happening.  Plenty of people were more than happy to comply.  To just shut up and do what they were told.

They turned on friends and family. Neighbors snitched on neighbors.  You had the rise of the Mask Karen.  People who got abusive and violent if you weren't wearing a mask. 

Police went around enforcing executive orders.  These aren't/weren't laws.  They arrested people and did it with a smile and "just following orders" excuse on their lips.

People with medical conditions that prevented them from complying got shoved aside and treated like second class citizens.  They were told that the government knew better than their personal doctors.

After seeing what has gone on for the last few years I've lost nearly all hope that any meaningful number of people would ever stand up for their rights and not just stand aside and let the government crush them.

"Close your eyes, can't happen here, Big Bro' on white horse is near"
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Zelen on April 14, 2022, 11:08:41 AM
Nothing will happen as long as people are addicted to The Screen, and think that just because The Screen tells them something that it's correct.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on April 14, 2022, 12:10:11 PM
But we just had 2 years of it not happening.  Plenty of people were more than happy to comply.  To just shut up and do what they were told.

They turned on friends and family. Neighbors snitched on neighbors.  You had the rise of the Mask Karen.  People who got abusive and violent if you weren't wearing a mask. 

Police went around enforcing executive orders.  These aren't/weren't laws.  They arrested people and did it with a smile and "just following orders" excuse on their lips.

People with medical conditions that prevented them from complying got shoved aside and treated like second class citizens.  They were told that the government knew better than their personal doctors.

After seeing what has gone on for the last few years I've lost nearly all hope that any meaningful number of people would ever stand up for their rights and not just stand aside and let the government crush them.

  To a degree this is true, but it seemed to vary quite a bit state by state.  Some states were very compliant, others not so much.  Some states, trying to pull mask police will gets cops shot or their asses kicked.  Karens also choose their locations carefully for their hijinks. I was up in the Appalachian and Blue Ridge mountains during the height of lockdown madness, and I can tell you no karen mask bullshit was going to fly in most of the places around that region.  I think region/state greatly affected how much of that was imposed, and that is because there is a wide variation in what different populations in different locations would tolerate. 
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Chris24601 on April 14, 2022, 01:49:14 PM
It ends when We the People refuse to comply.

Mass non-compliance destroys the entire Covidiot system.

Most people are bovine cowards, so it will never end.
Mmm. You might ask Marie Antoinette how that worked out. Or the Ceausescus.

It's always a mistake to say 'Why worry about something that won't happen?'.
Even a dull coward can be brave when he has nothing left to lose. If your remaining choices are certain slow death by starvation or the chance of life if you decide to fight then a whole bunch of cowards will choose to fight.

It’s been strongly hinted that the Shanghi lockdowns actually have nothing to do with Covid and everything to do with making an example of the most Westernized city in China to the rest of China to not even think about rebelling against the State. Tyrants always fear being overthrown and the less secure they feel, the tighter they try to squeeze.

The entire global system based on endless debt is starting to disintegrate… sooner or later the bill always comes due. Leaders all over the world are looking at what’s happening with Sri Lanka and Peru as bellwethers of what’s coming their way and reacting in accord with their respective philosophies in response.

For China’s leaders it is massive crackdowns, for the United States’ “leaders” it is fiddling while the country burns down around them. More observant people have been quietly stockpiling for years because the realities of economics aren’t rocket science and the direction has been obvious for quite some time.

We’re looking at the collapse of the Western Roman Empire at best… Bronze Age Collapse as the mid-range and some suicidal idiot setting off a full nuclear exchange (when you’re an octogenarian tyrant with no heirs you give two craps about why leave anything for anyone else?) at worst.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on April 16, 2022, 06:20:15 AM
Mmm. You might ask Marie Antoinette how that worked out. Or the Ceausescus.

It's always a mistake to say 'Why worry about something that won't happen?'.

Not a coincidence that neither of your examples are in the 21st century. I've lived through the last 2 years, the majority are spineless and utterly oblivious. They've been terrified, atomised and cucked.

Look at Australia. Look at Canada. Look at New Zealand. Look at most of mainland Europe. People haven't merely looked the other way while authoritarian bullshit was imposed on them, some of them heartily cheered it.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ghostmaker on April 16, 2022, 10:18:42 AM
Mmm. You might ask Marie Antoinette how that worked out. Or the Ceausescus.

It's always a mistake to say 'Why worry about something that won't happen?'.

Not a coincidence that neither of your examples are in the 21st century. I've lived through the last 2 years, the majority are spineless and utterly oblivious. They've been terrified, atomised and cucked.

Look at Australia. Look at Canada. Look at New Zealand. Look at most of mainland Europe. People haven't merely looked the other way while authoritarian bullshit was imposed on them, some of them heartily cheered it.
OK doomer.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on April 16, 2022, 11:14:46 AM
Mmm. You might ask Marie Antoinette how that worked out. Or the Ceausescus.

It's always a mistake to say 'Why worry about something that won't happen?'.

Not a coincidence that neither of your examples are in the 21st century. I've lived through the last 2 years, the majority are spineless and utterly oblivious. They've been terrified, atomised and cucked.

Look at Australia. Look at Canada. Look at New Zealand. Look at most of mainland Europe. People haven't merely looked the other way while authoritarian bullshit was imposed on them, some of them heartily cheered it.
OK doomer.

  Well he is in Europe.    Seems to be a connection between disarmed and compliant to a degree.   
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ogre on April 16, 2022, 03:43:33 PM
Mmm. You might ask Marie Antoinette how that worked out. Or the Ceausescus.

It's always a mistake to say 'Why worry about something that won't happen?'.

Not a coincidence that neither of your examples are in the 21st century. I've lived through the last 2 years, the majority are spineless and utterly oblivious. They've been terrified, atomised and cucked.

Look at Australia. Look at Canada. Look at New Zealand. Look at most of mainland Europe. People haven't merely looked the other way while authoritarian bullshit was imposed on them, some of them heartily cheered it.
I don't think you understand that most of the US didn't shut down. Just the big cities otherwise there would have a lot more starving mouths to feed. Hell I'm surprised to learn people are still playing covid into 2022
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on April 16, 2022, 05:47:44 PM
OK doomer.

  Well he is in Europe.    Seems to be a connection between disarmed and compliant to a degree.

It wasn't even as strictly followed in the UK as mainland Europe, yet most people willingly went along with it. Even now with no mandates in place, people are so brainwashed about half still wear muzzles in shops.

Our vaccination rate is well over 80% of the adult population and they're making big inroads into children. 92% of covid deaths are in the double or triple jabbed.

I don't think you understand that most of the US didn't shut down. Just the big cities otherwise there would have a lot more starving mouths to feed. Hell I'm surprised to learn people are still playing covid into 2022

I'm not American and I'm not talking about the US. I'm talking about most of the rest of the developed world.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Chris24601 on April 16, 2022, 07:20:40 PM
Mmm. You might ask Marie Antoinette how that worked out. Or the Ceausescus.

It's always a mistake to say 'Why worry about something that won't happen?'.

Not a coincidence that neither of your examples are in the 21st century. I've lived through the last 2 years, the majority are spineless and utterly oblivious. They've been terrified, atomised and cucked.

Look at Australia. Look at Canada. Look at New Zealand. Look at most of mainland Europe. People haven't merely looked the other way while authoritarian bullshit was imposed on them, some of them heartily cheered it.
I don't think you understand that most of the US didn't shut down. Just the big cities otherwise there would have a lot more starving mouths to feed. Hell I'm surprised to learn people are still playing covid into 2022
Europeans and coastal city dwellers have no idea how big the United States are… nor how wide open and diverse it is. Electric vehicles just aren’t viable in most of the country where you have to drive 20 miles to work and 10 miles to the grocery. Nor is mass transit when huge swaths of the population live in areas where the population density is 35/km2 or less. Fortunately our gas prices remain low enough ($3.89/gallon this morning) that it hasn’t crippled us yet.

There are places that never shut down for Covid at all. My state (Indiana) started opening up after just a couple months and was wide open again in early 2021. A few nuts still wear masks in public, but they’re notable precisely for how unusual they are (we’re also 40% unvaxxed and barely 50% had two doses and only 40% are considered fully vaxxed).

My state’s legislature actually passed laws to keep the governor from using emergency powers again and just passed Constitutional Carry (meaning you don’t even need a license to carry a concealed handgun… open carry of long arms was already legal). We had a budget surplus so our state government decided to send the excess back to the actual taxpayers.

Basically, states like Indiana and Florida are completely different realms from the Leftist coastal strongholds. What you’re going to increasingly see is a cleaving of those areas from the failing regions of the country… not violence or secession so much as just ignoring federal decrees they don’t actually have the ability to enforce.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Shasarak on April 16, 2022, 08:21:42 PM
Look at Australia. Look at Canada. Look at New Zealand. Look at most of mainland Europe. People haven't merely looked the other way while authoritarian bullshit was imposed on them, some of them heartily cheered it.

You are giving the NZ government too much credit.  They are far too useless to organise a piss up in a brewery let alone anything really authoritarian
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on April 17, 2022, 08:01:50 AM
You are giving the NZ government too much credit.  They are far too useless to organise a piss up in a brewery let alone anything really authoritarian

They successfully isolated the country from the rest of the world (except for the elites, of course).
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on April 18, 2022, 07:20:17 AM
Well I'll be. Buried on page 78 of the official UK government reporting on covid and flu: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1069290/Weekly_Flu_and_COVID-19_report_w15_v2.pdf

Is Table 7. Which admits that there are 19 million unjabbed (contrary to the much touted 5 million figure they used in press conferences a few months ago). Plus another 2.5 million who never had a second or third dose, and another 9 million who haven't had a third.

So unsurprisingly the claims about the numbers jabbed are a lie. Meanwhile over 90% of those dying with covid are at least double-jabbed, 80% are triple. Really effective...
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on April 18, 2022, 01:59:08 PM
It's always a mistake to say 'Why worry about something that won't happen?'.

Were you trying to restate a paranoid's mantra? It's usually a mistake to worry about something unlikely to happen. Worrying about everything which could possibly happen but which is unlikely to happen is a recipe for a deeply miserable life.

But then you knew that. In fact it's your entire thesis on your approach to covid. So you didn't even believe your own nonsense.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on April 18, 2022, 02:19:19 PM
 Keep those boosters up and no worries.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on April 18, 2022, 03:17:04 PM
Keep those boosters up and no worries.

If you're in a high risk category, by health or age, I think the boosters are pretty helpful.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Fheredin on April 18, 2022, 03:41:05 PM
You are giving the NZ government too much credit.  They are far too useless to organise a piss up in a brewery let alone anything really authoritarian

They successfully isolated the country from the rest of the world (except for the elites, of course).

...Yes, they managed to keep an already small, not particularly economically relevant, and literally isolated by an ocean nation...isolated. This isn't political willpower; this is geography. However, New Zealand does offer a case where you have people who took the vaccine, but who mostly weren't exposed to COVID, meaning that you can separate the effects of COVID from the effects of the vaccine by looking at data from New Zealand.



Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on April 18, 2022, 03:55:58 PM
Keep those boosters up and no worries.

If you're in a high risk category, by health or age, I think the boosters are pretty helpful.

  And if you are not, you should probably avoid them and the vax
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Fheredin on April 18, 2022, 04:35:39 PM
It's always a mistake to say 'Why worry about something that won't happen?'.

Were you trying to restate a paranoid's mantra? It's usually a mistake to worry about something unlikely to happen. Worrying about everything which could possibly happen but which is unlikely to happen is a recipe for a deeply miserable life.

But then you knew that. In fact it's your entire thesis on your approach to covid. So you didn't even believe your own nonsense.

I kinda have to poke the bear on this one. Let me give you a moment of context.

China--one of the world's biggest economies--is facing a logistics famine thanks to COVID lockdowns, a real estate debt bubble thanks to Evergrande, and an energy crisis where large swaths of the nation are suffering from rolling blackouts. Russia--the world's largest fertilizer exporter, and a large grain and energy exporter--is at war with Ukraine...a major grain exporter. Here in the US, we have a severe labor shortage, Boomers are retiring en masse, Blackrock is snapping up houses the instant they hit the market with above asking price/ cash on close offers, and the backlog of container ships wanting to dock in LA or Long Beach is just now starting to wane...because China's major ports are shut down and they can't physically ship anything.

The warning signs are plain for all to see. The global economy is melting down. At this moment I suppose a "soft landing" is still theoretically possible, but I'm not holding my breath for it. A soft landing would require many entities to proactively build towards a new paradigm. Blackrock's actions specifically tell me that the 1% are only interested in looting the treasury before the world burns down, and the super-wealthy having such an attitude will probably sabotage any soft landing hopes.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on April 18, 2022, 04:37:58 PM
Keep those boosters up and no worries.

If you're in a high risk category, by health or age, I think the boosters are pretty helpful.
I think pushing the Nth booster is the wrong approach. They may make sense for a limited subset of high risk people, like the elderly or immunocompromised, but the risk of adverse effects increases with each shot, so it makes less and less sense for the bulk of the population. And from a public health perspective, the bigger priority should be getting a first dose to more people. Not coercing people who don't want the shot, because that's fucking evil. But getting more doses to high risk people in areas like Africa where the vaccination rates are very low.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on April 18, 2022, 05:07:25 PM
If you're in a high risk category, by health or age, I think the boosters are pretty helpful.

How so, given they offer fuck all protection? 90% of deaths with covid in the UK are double- and triple-jabbed. Weren't they supposed to make that less likely?

I think pushing the Nth booster is the wrong approach. They may make sense for a limited subset of high risk people, like the elderly or immunocompromised, but the risk of adverse effects increases with each shot, so it makes less and less sense for the bulk of the population. And from a public health perspective, the bigger priority should be getting a first dose to more people. Not coercing people who don't want the shot, because that's fucking evil. But getting more doses to high risk people in areas like Africa where the vaccination rates are very low.

People in Africa have no need whatsoever for the covid jabs. They're not old enough or fat enough to be at any meaningful risk of covid, and they have plenty of HCQ to treat malaria about.

They're not "high risk", which is why their death rates from the deadly coof has been negligible.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on April 18, 2022, 05:16:18 PM
People in Africa have no need whatsoever for the covid jabs. They're not old enough or fat enough to be at any meaningful risk of covid, and they have plenty of HCQ to treat malaria about.

They're not "high risk", which is why their death rates from the deadly coof has been negligible.
There are no old people in Africa?

You're generalizing far too broadly.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on April 18, 2022, 05:33:25 PM
There are no old people in Africa?

You're generalizing far too broadly.

There are hardly any people 80+, which is about the only age group at meaningful risk.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Stephen Tannhauser on April 18, 2022, 05:39:48 PM
90% of deaths with covid in the UK are double- and triple-jabbed. Weren't they supposed to make that less likely?

The argument is that there would have been a lot more COVID-caused deaths had there still been any significant volume of non-injected people. Which is not itself necessarily incorrect, but I distrust it because like all counterfactuals it's inherently unfalsifiable.

As always, of course, one also has to ask whether those numbers differentiate between a death with the virus and a death caused by the virus.  Given the high levels of treatment in the U.K. I would expect by now that better than 75%-80% of deaths from any cause will be among the double-/triple-dosed.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on April 18, 2022, 05:53:53 PM
The argument is that there would have been a lot more COVID-caused deaths had there still been any significant volume of non-injected people. Which is not itself necessarily incorrect, but I distrust it because like all counterfactuals it's inherently unfalsifiable.

As always, of course, one also has to ask whether those numbers differentiate between a death with the virus and a death caused by the virus.  Given the high levels of treatment in the U.K. I would expect by now that better than 75%-80% of deaths from any cause will be among the double-/triple-dosed.

Sure, you can make the argument, it would be utter drivel of course, bourne out by our actual experience of the last 18 months. Note this is deaths with, the stats are explicit about it. Any death from any cause within 28 days of a positive test result is a "death with covid". Even though over 95% of deaths with covid were actually caused by something else.

Most of the dying is still being done by the over 80s, who are over 95% double jabbed (and in the high 80s triple jabbed).

Meanwhile, since the jabbing began, referrals for heart failure have tripled on 2019 figures. I'm sure that's nothing to do with it, though...
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on April 18, 2022, 06:03:46 PM
It's always a mistake to say 'Why worry about something that won't happen?'.

Were you trying to restate a paranoid's mantra? It's usually a mistake to worry about something unlikely to happen. Worrying about everything which could possibly happen but which is unlikely to happen is a recipe for a deeply miserable life.

But then you knew that. In fact it's your entire thesis on your approach to covid. So you didn't even believe your own nonsense.

I kinda have to poke the bear on this one. Let me give you a moment of context.

China--one of the world's biggest economies--is facing a logistics famine thanks to COVID lockdowns, a real estate debt bubble thanks to Evergrande, and an energy crisis where large swaths of the nation are suffering from rolling blackouts. Russia--the world's largest fertilizer exporter, and a large grain and energy exporter--is at war with Ukraine...a major grain exporter. Here in the US, we have a severe labor shortage, Boomers are retiring en masse, Blackrock is snapping up houses the instant they hit the market with above asking price/ cash on close offers, and the backlog of container ships wanting to dock in LA or Long Beach is just now starting to wane...because China's major ports are shut down and they can't physically ship anything.

The warning signs are plain for all to see. The global economy is melting down. At this moment I suppose a "soft landing" is still theoretically possible, but I'm not holding my breath for it. A soft landing would require many entities to proactively build towards a new paradigm. Blackrock's actions specifically tell me that the 1% are only interested in looting the treasury before the world burns down, and the super-wealthy having such an attitude will probably sabotage any soft landing hopes.

LOL yeah you're overreacting. I am shocked you didn't mention global warming and nuclear war and the decline of the bees.

Also, the ports issue in LA has nothing to do with china's ports, nor are china's ports closed (though they are experiencing delays). I mean, damn dude, you had to mention like one of the only topics I'm an actual expert on and which you obviously have no clue at all about? Like, literally the one major thing I do most days lately you had to go there?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Stephen Tannhauser on April 18, 2022, 06:04:51 PM
Most of the dying is still being done by the over 80s, who are over 95% double jabbed (and in the high 80s triple jabbed).

Exactly. Who else would you expect to be doing the majority of the dying anyway? At that point the "jabbed/unjabbed" correlations aren't reliable enough to conclude anything in either direction.

Quote
Meanwhile, since the jabbing began, referrals for heart failure have tripled on 2019 figures. I'm sure that's nothing to do with it, though...

I wouldn't be surprised if there turned out to be a causal factor either. But eighteen months' backlog on regular checkups and treatments almost certainly has just as much to do with that, if not more.

Don't get me wrong, I am a fairly profound skeptic of these treatments myself (and I am absolutely against the policies implemented to try enforcing them). I just want to avoid unnecessarily reachy statistical inferences in either direction, since I think far too much of that was used to advocate for these things in the first place.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on April 18, 2022, 06:05:08 PM
Keep those boosters up and no worries.

If you're in a high risk category, by health or age, I think the boosters are pretty helpful.
I think pushing the Nth booster is the wrong approach. They may make sense for a limited subset of high risk people, like the elderly or immunocompromised, but the risk of adverse effects increases with each shot, so it makes less and less sense for the bulk of the population. And from a public health perspective, the bigger priority should be getting a first dose to more people. Not coercing people who don't want the shot, because that's fucking evil. But getting more doses to high risk people in areas like Africa where the vaccination rates are very low.

We agree
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on April 18, 2022, 06:09:57 PM
There are no old people in Africa?

You're generalizing far too broadly.

There are hardly any people 80+, which is about the only age group at meaningful risk.

Best data I could find in a 30 second google search, "In sub-Saharan Africa there were around 2.4 million people age 80 and over in 2005, and this number is projected to nearly triple to 6.1 million by 2030."

You are still the stupidest person on any message board I've ever been to. I am assuming you thought there were hardly any people over 80 on the entire continent of Africa for some racist reason. Because that's the level of stupid you're at.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on April 18, 2022, 06:16:49 PM
There are no old people in Africa?

You're generalizing far too broadly.

There are hardly any people 80+, which is about the only age group at meaningful risk.
"Hardly any" may be better than "no need whatsoever", but Africa's a big and populous continent. You need to move the goalposts even further.

Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: GeekyBugle on April 18, 2022, 06:57:41 PM
The current population of Africa is 1,397,959,832 as of Sunday, April 17, 2022, based on the latest United Nations estimates.

So lets take the 6.1 million over 80 as the actual number.

This means that 0.44% of the African population is in the 80+ category.

In contrast Europe has 27.3 million elderly. With a population of 746, 400,000.

So Europe has half the population but 4 times the elderly.

I do think that facts are racist for midwits like mistwell but they remain facts.

Add to it they have less overweight ppl than other places and they don't lack vitamin D...

I would guess there's health risks they should be way more worried about than the commie coof.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on April 18, 2022, 08:24:05 PM
The current population of Africa is 1,397,959,832 as of Sunday, April 17, 2022, based on the latest United Nations estimates.

So lets take the 6.1 million over 80 as the actual number.

This means that 0.44% of the African population is in the 80+ category.

Who cares what "percentage" of the population might be? MILLIONS of people is "a lot" and not "hardly any". We all know this. If someone tells you 6 million people could die in Africa, that's not "hardly any" people. It's a lot.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: GeekyBugle on April 18, 2022, 08:41:38 PM
The current population of Africa is 1,397,959,832 as of Sunday, April 17, 2022, based on the latest United Nations estimates.

So lets take the 6.1 million over 80 as the actual number.

This means that 0.44% of the African population is in the 80+ category.

Who cares what "percentage" of the population might be? MILLIONS of people is "a lot" and not "hardly any". We all know this. If someone tells you 6 million people could die in Africa, that's not "hardly any" people. It's a lot.

Not as a percentage of the total population it isn't. But "If it saves one life" no?

The fact is Africa has other stuff to worry about and not the commie coof.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on April 18, 2022, 09:14:14 PM
The current population of Africa is 1,397,959,832 as of Sunday, April 17, 2022, based on the latest United Nations estimates.

So lets take the 6.1 million over 80 as the actual number.

This means that 0.44% of the African population is in the 80+ category.

Who cares what "percentage" of the population might be? MILLIONS of people is "a lot" and not "hardly any". We all know this. If someone tells you 6 million people could die in Africa, that's not "hardly any" people. It's a lot.

Not as a percentage of the total population it isn't. But "If it saves one life" no?

The fact is Africa has other stuff to worry about and not the commie coof.

WTF is wrong with your brain that you equate 6 million people to "save one life"? How fucked up are you that you are unable to discern the difference between 6 million and 1?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: GeekyBugle on April 18, 2022, 11:28:28 PM
The current population of Africa is 1,397,959,832 as of Sunday, April 17, 2022, based on the latest United Nations estimates.

So lets take the 6.1 million over 80 as the actual number.

This means that 0.44% of the African population is in the 80+ category.

Who cares what "percentage" of the population might be? MILLIONS of people is "a lot" and not "hardly any". We all know this. If someone tells you 6 million people could die in Africa, that's not "hardly any" people. It's a lot.

Not as a percentage of the total population it isn't. But "If it saves one life" no?

The fact is Africa has other stuff to worry about and not the commie coof.

WTF is wrong with your brain that you equate 6 million people to "save one life"? How fucked up are you that you are unable to discern the difference between 6 million and 1?

WTF is wrong with you that can't see 6 million elderly =/= 6 million deaths from the commie coof? True they are more at risk, doesn't mean ALL will get it or die from it.

Africa has way more pressing health issues to worry about:

2019 total deaths in Africa from

Diarrhoeal diseases 6,933,880.76672

HIV/AIDS 6,081,125.2692

Ischaemic heart disease 5,997,247.67928

Stroke 5,955,308.88432

Malaria 5,424,084.14816

Tuberculosis 5,284,288.16496

Road Injury 4,151,940.70104

Cirrosis of the liver 2,726,021.6724

Those are actual deaths, and we can safely assume it's about the same every year from the same causes. Just from the first 6 you're well above 30 million dead every year.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on April 18, 2022, 11:57:15 PM
The current population of Africa is 1,397,959,832 as of Sunday, April 17, 2022, based on the latest United Nations estimates.

So lets take the 6.1 million over 80 as the actual number.

This means that 0.44% of the African population is in the 80+ category.

Who cares what "percentage" of the population might be? MILLIONS of people is "a lot" and not "hardly any". We all know this. If someone tells you 6 million people could die in Africa, that's not "hardly any" people. It's a lot.

Not as a percentage of the total population it isn't. But "If it saves one life" no?

The fact is Africa has other stuff to worry about and not the commie coof.

WTF is wrong with your brain that you equate 6 million people to "save one life"? How fucked up are you that you are unable to discern the difference between 6 million and 1?

WTF is wrong with you that can't see 6 million elderly =/= 6 million deaths from the commie coof? True they are more at risk, doesn't mean ALL will get it or die from it.

Africa has way more pressing health issues to worry about:

2019 total deaths in Africa from

Diarrhoeal diseases 6,933,880.76672

HIV/AIDS 6,081,125.2692

Ischaemic heart disease 5,997,247.67928

Stroke 5,955,308.88432

Malaria 5,424,084.14816

Tuberculosis 5,284,288.16496

Road Injury 4,151,940.70104

Cirrosis of the liver 2,726,021.6724

Those are actual deaths, and we can safely assume it's about the same every year from the same causes. Just from the first 6 you're well above 30 million dead every year.
And a lot of those are more difficult to manage, and there is less political will.

Remember, this conversation started over what should be prioritized in the public health response to covid. And clearly, making a first dose available to high risk populations like the elderly or immunocompromised in areas where few are vaccinated is far more important than ensuring Karen's son has his 4th jab.

It's true, that Africa has very low overall risk compared to other parts of the world. The average age is stunningly low. There are also other factors in their favor, like plenty of Vitamin D. But they still have an elderly population, and other populations like those with AIDS may also be at very high risk. There are also many other areas of the world with low vaccination rates, which might be improved by availability and public messaging and other legitimate tools of public health, instead of the body horror human rights violations committed by the state in the so-called "free world".

This back and forth is more virtue signaling than anything else.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: GeekyBugle on April 19, 2022, 12:15:48 AM
The current population of Africa is 1,397,959,832 as of Sunday, April 17, 2022, based on the latest United Nations estimates.

So lets take the 6.1 million over 80 as the actual number.

This means that 0.44% of the African population is in the 80+ category.

Who cares what "percentage" of the population might be? MILLIONS of people is "a lot" and not "hardly any". We all know this. If someone tells you 6 million people could die in Africa, that's not "hardly any" people. It's a lot.

Not as a percentage of the total population it isn't. But "If it saves one life" no?

The fact is Africa has other stuff to worry about and not the commie coof.

WTF is wrong with your brain that you equate 6 million people to "save one life"? How fucked up are you that you are unable to discern the difference between 6 million and 1?

WTF is wrong with you that can't see 6 million elderly =/= 6 million deaths from the commie coof? True they are more at risk, doesn't mean ALL will get it or die from it.

Africa has way more pressing health issues to worry about:

2019 total deaths in Africa from

Diarrhoeal diseases 6,933,880.76672

HIV/AIDS 6,081,125.2692

Ischaemic heart disease 5,997,247.67928

Stroke 5,955,308.88432

Malaria 5,424,084.14816

Tuberculosis 5,284,288.16496

Road Injury 4,151,940.70104

Cirrosis of the liver 2,726,021.6724

Those are actual deaths, and we can safely assume it's about the same every year from the same causes. Just from the first 6 you're well above 30 million dead every year.
And a lot of those are more difficult to manage, and there is less political will.

Remember, this conversation started over what should be prioritized in the public health response to covid. And clearly, making a first dose available to high risk populations like the elderly or immunocompromised in areas where few are vaccinated is far more important than ensuring Karen's son has his 4th jab.

It's true, that Africa has very low overall risk compared to other parts of the world. The average age is stunningly low. There are also other factors in their favor, like plenty of Vitamin D. But they still have an elderly population, and other populations like those with AIDS may also be at very high risk. There are also many other areas of the world with low vaccination rates, which might be improved by availability and public messaging and other legitimate tools of public health, instead of the body horror human rights violations committed by the state in the so-called "free world".

This back and forth is more virtue signaling than anything else.

I don't disagree with you, my main point was that Kiero was right. Africa has very few elderly.

The life expectancy in Africa is very low, they die younger and have a larger reproduction rate than the "free world" which accounts for the small number of elderly among their population.

Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on April 19, 2022, 12:42:45 AM
I don't disagree with you, my main point was that Kiero was right. Africa has very few elderly.

The life expectancy in Africa is very low, they die younger and have a larger reproduction rate than the "free world" which accounts for the small number of elderly among their population.
No, Kiero was clearly wrong, because he turned a general statement into an absolute. Nobody disagrees that Africa has relatively few elderly, but Kiero said there was "no need whatsoever", implying an entire continent had an elderly population of zero. That's simply incorrect.

The rest of this has just been people reflexively supporting their side, and ignoring the fact that everyone essentially agrees. Including Kiero, as evidenced by his later posts. This is just sound and fury, signifying tribalism.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on April 19, 2022, 07:50:06 AM
The current population of Africa is 1,397,959,832 as of Sunday, April 17, 2022, based on the latest United Nations estimates.

So lets take the 6.1 million over 80 as the actual number.

This means that 0.44% of the African population is in the 80+ category.

Who cares what "percentage" of the population might be? MILLIONS of people is "a lot" and not "hardly any". We all know this. If someone tells you 6 million people could die in Africa, that's not "hardly any" people. It's a lot.

Not as a percentage of the total population it isn't. But "If it saves one life" no?

The fact is Africa has other stuff to worry about and not the commie coof.

WTF is wrong with your brain that you equate 6 million people to "save one life"? How fucked up are you that you are unable to discern the difference between 6 million and 1?

WTF is wrong with you that can't see 6 million elderly =/= 6 million deaths from the commie coof? True they are more at risk, doesn't mean ALL will get it or die from it.

Wow you didn't even follow the conversation. We were talking about if a booster is useful for the elderly and immune compromised. I said I thought it was. Pat mentioned a better use of doses is getting a first dose to places like Africa. We were discussing at least getting Africa a first dose for those vulnerable. Dumbshit Kiero said there are hardly any elderly there so why bother. I said there are millions of elderly there.

And here you are jumping in claiming "well they won't all die" as if the conversation wasn't about "a first dose to vulnerable people in Africa might be a better application of our efforts than boosting every healthy person in the first world".

You all caught up now? While yes Africa ALSO suffers from other problems that is not in fact a response to "A better use of doses might be to get a first dose to those vulnerable in Africa."
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ogre on April 19, 2022, 09:21:49 PM
The current population of Africa is 1,397,959,832 as of Sunday, April 17, 2022, based on the latest United Nations estimates.

So lets take the 6.1 million over 80 as the actual number.

This means that 0.44% of the African population is in the 80+ category.

Who cares what "percentage" of the population might be? MILLIONS of people is "a lot" and not "hardly any". We all know this. If someone tells you 6 million people could die in Africa, that's not "hardly any" people. It's a lot.

Not as a percentage of the total population it isn't. But "If it saves one life" no?

The fact is Africa has other stuff to worry about and not the commie coof.

WTF is wrong with your brain that you equate 6 million people to "save one life"? How fucked up are you that you are unable to discern the difference between 6 million and 1?

WTF is wrong with you that can't see 6 million elderly =/= 6 million deaths from the commie coof? True they are more at risk, doesn't mean ALL will get it or die from it.

Wow you didn't even follow the conversation. We were talking about if a booster is useful for the elderly and immune compromised. I said I thought it was. Pat mentioned a better use of doses is getting a first dose to places like Africa. We were discussing at least getting Africa a first dose for those vulnerable. Dumbshit Kiero said there are hardly any elderly there so why bother. I said there are millions of elderly there.

And here you are jumping in claiming "well they won't all die" as if the conversation wasn't about "a first dose to vulnerable people in Africa might be a better application of our efforts than boosting every healthy person in the first world".

You all caught up now? While yes Africa ALSO suffers from other problems that is not in fact a response to "A better use of doses might be to get a first dose to those vulnerable in Africa."
Misty can you try to steelman this instead. Just tired of you attacking straw for years on end
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on April 20, 2022, 12:43:17 AM
The current population of Africa is 1,397,959,832 as of Sunday, April 17, 2022, based on the latest United Nations estimates.

So lets take the 6.1 million over 80 as the actual number.

This means that 0.44% of the African population is in the 80+ category.

Who cares what "percentage" of the population might be? MILLIONS of people is "a lot" and not "hardly any". We all know this. If someone tells you 6 million people could die in Africa, that's not "hardly any" people. It's a lot.

Not as a percentage of the total population it isn't. But "If it saves one life" no?

The fact is Africa has other stuff to worry about and not the commie coof.

WTF is wrong with your brain that you equate 6 million people to "save one life"? How fucked up are you that you are unable to discern the difference between 6 million and 1?

WTF is wrong with you that can't see 6 million elderly =/= 6 million deaths from the commie coof? True they are more at risk, doesn't mean ALL will get it or die from it.

Wow you didn't even follow the conversation. We were talking about if a booster is useful for the elderly and immune compromised. I said I thought it was. Pat mentioned a better use of doses is getting a first dose to places like Africa. We were discussing at least getting Africa a first dose for those vulnerable. Dumbshit Kiero said there are hardly any elderly there so why bother. I said there are millions of elderly there.

And here you are jumping in claiming "well they won't all die" as if the conversation wasn't about "a first dose to vulnerable people in Africa might be a better application of our efforts than boosting every healthy person in the first world".

You all caught up now? While yes Africa ALSO suffers from other problems that is not in fact a response to "A better use of doses might be to get a first dose to those vulnerable in Africa."
Misty can you try to steelman this instead. Just tired of you attacking straw for years on end

LOL Oh ok, what argument did I just misrepresent in that summary? Or you just not sure what to say so you figured a random personal bash on me would do the trick whether or not it was actually applicable to the thread?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on April 20, 2022, 06:49:24 AM
No, Kiero was clearly wrong, because he turned a general statement into an absolute. Nobody disagrees that Africa has relatively few elderly, but Kiero said there was "no need whatsoever", implying an entire continent had an elderly population of zero. That's simply incorrect.

The rest of this has just been people reflexively supporting their side, and ignoring the fact that everyone essentially agrees. Including Kiero, as evidenced by his later posts. This is just sound and fury, signifying tribalism.

Not exactly. See the thing is nobody needs the jabs. They don't work, and worse still, have an unknown spectrum of medium and long term risks.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on April 20, 2022, 08:53:39 AM
No, Kiero was clearly wrong, because he turned a general statement into an absolute. Nobody disagrees that Africa has relatively few elderly, but Kiero said there was "no need whatsoever", implying an entire continent had an elderly population of zero. That's simply incorrect.

The rest of this has just been people reflexively supporting their side, and ignoring the fact that everyone essentially agrees. Including Kiero, as evidenced by his later posts. This is just sound and fury, signifying tribalism.

Not exactly. See the thing is nobody needs the jabs. They don't work, and worse still, have an unknown spectrum of medium and long term risks.
You were still wrong, because that's a general argument not something specific to Africa. Here's what you said:

People in Africa have no need whatsoever for the covid jabs. They're not old enough or fat enough to be at any meaningful risk of covid, and they have plenty of HCQ to treat malaria about.

They're not "high risk", which is why their death rates from the deadly coof has been negligible.
That's not an argument about the dearth of information on the long term consequences of the jabs.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: fixable on April 23, 2022, 03:54:03 AM
No, Kiero was clearly wrong, because he turned a general statement into an absolute. Nobody disagrees that Africa has relatively few elderly, but Kiero said there was "no need whatsoever", implying an entire continent had an elderly population of zero. That's simply incorrect.

The rest of this has just been people reflexively supporting their side, and ignoring the fact that everyone essentially agrees. Including Kiero, as evidenced by his later posts. This is just sound and fury, signifying tribalism.

Not exactly. See the thing is nobody needs the jabs. They don't work, and worse still, have an unknown spectrum of medium and long term risks.
Of course the vaccines work. Everyone I know who are vaccinated and got covid had at worse minor symptoms. Stop being dumb.

Vaccines save lives and are safe. I'll provide a scientific study to prove it for every nonsense article from Medium you provide that states they aren't safe... but that'll be a problem for you. You can shout until you are blue in the face but you don't have the science backing you.

Stop messing with people. Everyone who can get a vaccination should get a vaccine and we can finally move on from this.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on April 23, 2022, 05:39:22 AM
This has to be the most unintentionally hilarious post I've read this week. Are you delusional? On someone's payroll?

Of course the vaccines work. Everyone I know who are vaccinated and got covid had at worse minor symptoms. Stop being dumb.

They're not vaccines. A vaccine prevents infection, these jabs categorically do not (well, ARR of around 1%, do you fancy those chances?).

I've never been jabbed, my annual bout with covid has been milder and milder still. I have never required medical attention, and I've been repeatedly exposed to people who had tested positive with little consequence.

Since we're trading anecdotes as though they were persuasive, I know plenty of other people who haven't been jabbed and similarly covid was a nothingburger for them. Even people much less healthy than myself.

Vaccines save lives and are safe. I'll provide a scientific study to prove it for every nonsense article from Medium you provide that states they aren't safe... but that'll be a problem for you. You can shout until you are blue in the face but you don't have the science backing you.

They fail all three basic tests of a medication: they are unnecessary, ineffective and unsafe. You can't provide any evidence that isn't paid for by the manufacturers to give the result they desired. I suppose you missed the data released by Pfizer (against the wishes of the FDA they paid good money for) showing in the first three months of their trial, over 1,200 people died? Or that they deliberately breached the blind in the trial and gave everyone their poison?

You don't have "science" backing you, only The Science! (TM).

Stop messing with people. Everyone who can get a vaccination should get a vaccine and we can finally move on from this.

I'm not messing with anyone, and there's no fucking way either I or my children are ever having that poison injected into us. There is no pandemic to "move on from", nor was there ever. There was a nasty strain of coronavirus in spring 2020, which was cynically used by governments to push an agenda.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on April 23, 2022, 12:33:03 PM
Of course the vaccines work. Everyone I know who are vaccinated and got covid had at worse minor symptoms. Stop being dumb.

Vaccines save lives and are safe. I'll provide a scientific study to prove it for every nonsense article from Medium you provide that states they aren't safe... but that'll be a problem for you. You can shout until you are blue in the face but you don't have the science backing you.

Stop messing with people. Everyone who can get a vaccination should get a vaccine and we can finally move on from this.
1) What are the long term effects of the vaccinations?

2) What's the incidence of myocarditis among boys and men up to age 24, after taking the vax? After covid-19? What's the IFR among males in the same age range? What's the IFR of covid-19 compared to the flu, in the same group? (If you feel the urge to cite the recent CDC study, explain why it's garbage.)

3) Which provides greater immunity: A previous covid-19 infection, or a dose of one of the vaccines?

4) Would universal vaccination eradicate sars-cov-2?

5) How many scientific studies have you read?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on April 23, 2022, 12:37:26 PM
This has to be the most unintentionally hilarious post I've read this week. Are you delusional? On someone's payroll?

Of course the vaccines work. Everyone I know who are vaccinated and got covid had at worse minor symptoms. Stop being dumb.

They're not vaccines. A vaccine prevents infection, these jabs categorically do not (well, ARR of around 1%, do you fancy those chances?).
They're vaccines. They're vaccines that don't block the disease in the upper respiratory system, like natural immunity does, so they allow the virus to generate many copies of itself before the immune system reacts, making them very leaky. But you don't get to redefine words.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Eirikrautha on April 23, 2022, 02:06:36 PM
This has to be the most unintentionally hilarious post I've read this week. Are you delusional? On someone's payroll?

Of course the vaccines work. Everyone I know who are vaccinated and got covid had at worse minor symptoms. Stop being dumb.

They're not vaccines. A vaccine prevents infection, these jabs categorically do not (well, ARR of around 1%, do you fancy those chances?).
They're vaccines. They're vaccines that don't block the disease in the upper respiratory system, like natural immunity does, so they allow the virus to generate many copies of itself before the immune system reacts, making them very leaky. But you don't get to redefine words.

Why not?  The CDC changed the definition of "vaccine" simply for this one (the emails have leaked where they specifically referenced the Pfizer vaccine as the reason for changing the definitions on their website).  So, my response would be, what's good for the goose...
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on April 23, 2022, 02:14:16 PM
This has to be the most unintentionally hilarious post I've read this week. Are you delusional? On someone's payroll?

Of course the vaccines work. Everyone I know who are vaccinated and got covid had at worse minor symptoms. Stop being dumb.

They're not vaccines. A vaccine prevents infection, these jabs categorically do not (well, ARR of around 1%, do you fancy those chances?).
They're vaccines. They're vaccines that don't block the disease in the upper respiratory system, like natural immunity does, so they allow the virus to generate many copies of itself before the immune system reacts, making them very leaky. But you don't get to redefine words.

Why not?  The CDC changed the definition of "vaccine" simply for this one (the emails have leaked where they specifically referenced the Pfizer vaccine as the reason for changing the definitions on their website).  So, my response would be, what's good for the goose...
I'm against changing the definitions of words, for political purposes. "But they did it too!" isn't even a acceptable argument in kindergarten.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: GeekyBugle on April 23, 2022, 02:23:09 PM
This has to be the most unintentionally hilarious post I've read this week. Are you delusional? On someone's payroll?

Of course the vaccines work. Everyone I know who are vaccinated and got covid had at worse minor symptoms. Stop being dumb.

They're not vaccines. A vaccine prevents infection, these jabs categorically do not (well, ARR of around 1%, do you fancy those chances?).
They're vaccines. They're vaccines that don't block the disease in the upper respiratory system, like natural immunity does, so they allow the virus to generate many copies of itself before the immune system reacts, making them very leaky. But you don't get to redefine words.

Why not?  The CDC changed the definition of "vaccine" simply for this one (the emails have leaked where they specifically referenced the Pfizer vaccine as the reason for changing the definitions on their website).  So, my response would be, what's good for the goose...
I'm against changing the definitions of words, for political purposes. "But they did it too!" isn't even a acceptable argument in kindergarten.

So, use the previous definition and see if it really applies to the jabs. If it did they wouldn't have changed it. Ergo the smart thing to do is to adhere to the previous one, just like the smart thing to do is to reject their re-definition of racism....
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on April 23, 2022, 02:31:46 PM
This has to be the most unintentionally hilarious post I've read this week. Are you delusional? On someone's payroll?

Of course the vaccines work. Everyone I know who are vaccinated and got covid had at worse minor symptoms. Stop being dumb.

They're not vaccines. A vaccine prevents infection, these jabs categorically do not (well, ARR of around 1%, do you fancy those chances?).
They're vaccines. They're vaccines that don't block the disease in the upper respiratory system, like natural immunity does, so they allow the virus to generate many copies of itself before the immune system reacts, making them very leaky. But you don't get to redefine words.

Why not?  The CDC changed the definition of "vaccine" simply for this one (the emails have leaked where they specifically referenced the Pfizer vaccine as the reason for changing the definitions on their website).  So, my response would be, what's good for the goose...
I'm against changing the definitions of words, for political purposes. "But they did it too!" isn't even a acceptable argument in kindergarten.

So, use the previous definition and see if it really applies to the jabs. If it did they wouldn't have changed it. Ergo the smart thing to do is to adhere to the previous one, just like the smart thing to do is to reject their re-definition of racism....
That's what I'm arguing for.

Here's the October 2019 definition from Wiktionary, the last before the Year of 14 Days. I'm using Wiktionary because it provides a verifiable and distributed history.

Quote from: Last edited by WingerBot (talk | contribs) as of 10:08, 14 October 2019.
vaccine (countable and uncountable, plural vaccines)

    (immunology) A substance given to stimulate the body's production of antibodies and provide immunity against a disease without causing the disease itself in the treatment, prepared from the agent that causes the disease, or a synthetic substitute.
Wonder of wonder, vaccines are vaccines.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Shasarak on April 23, 2022, 03:52:16 PM
This has to be the most unintentionally hilarious post I've read this week. Are you delusional? On someone's payroll?

Of course the vaccines work. Everyone I know who are vaccinated and got covid had at worse minor symptoms. Stop being dumb.

They're not vaccines. A vaccine prevents infection, these jabs categorically do not (well, ARR of around 1%, do you fancy those chances?).
They're vaccines. They're vaccines that don't block the disease in the upper respiratory system, like natural immunity does, so they allow the virus to generate many copies of itself before the immune system reacts, making them very leaky. But you don't get to redefine words.

Why not?  The CDC changed the definition of "vaccine" simply for this one (the emails have leaked where they specifically referenced the Pfizer vaccine as the reason for changing the definitions on their website).  So, my response would be, what's good for the goose...
I'm against changing the definitions of words, for political purposes. "But they did it too!" isn't even a acceptable argument in kindergarten.

So, use the previous definition and see if it really applies to the jabs. If it did they wouldn't have changed it. Ergo the smart thing to do is to adhere to the previous one, just like the smart thing to do is to reject their re-definition of racism....
That's what I'm arguing for.

Here's the October 2019 definition from Wiktionary, the last before the Year of 14 Days. I'm using Wiktionary because it provides a verifiable and distributed history.

Quote from: Last edited by WingerBot (talk | contribs) as of 10:08, 14 October 2019.
vaccine (countable and uncountable, plural vaccines)

    (immunology) A substance given to stimulate the body's production of antibodies and provide immunity against a disease without causing the disease itself in the treatment, prepared from the agent that causes the disease, or a synthetic substitute.
Wonder of wonder, vaccines are vaccines.

What does immunity mean?

I think that’s where you lose most people.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on April 23, 2022, 04:33:53 PM
This has to be the most unintentionally hilarious post I've read this week. Are you delusional? On someone's payroll?

Of course the vaccines work. Everyone I know who are vaccinated and got covid had at worse minor symptoms. Stop being dumb.

They're not vaccines. A vaccine prevents infection, these jabs categorically do not (well, ARR of around 1%, do you fancy those chances?).
They're vaccines. They're vaccines that don't block the disease in the upper respiratory system, like natural immunity does, so they allow the virus to generate many copies of itself before the immune system reacts, making them very leaky. But you don't get to redefine words.

Why not?  The CDC changed the definition of "vaccine" simply for this one (the emails have leaked where they specifically referenced the Pfizer vaccine as the reason for changing the definitions on their website).  So, my response would be, what's good for the goose...
I'm against changing the definitions of words, for political purposes. "But they did it too!" isn't even a acceptable argument in kindergarten.

So, use the previous definition and see if it really applies to the jabs. If it did they wouldn't have changed it. Ergo the smart thing to do is to adhere to the previous one, just like the smart thing to do is to reject their re-definition of racism....
That's what I'm arguing for.

Here's the October 2019 definition from Wiktionary, the last before the Year of 14 Days. I'm using Wiktionary because it provides a verifiable and distributed history.

Quote from: Last edited by WingerBot (talk | contribs) as of 10:08, 14 October 2019.
vaccine (countable and uncountable, plural vaccines)

    (immunology) A substance given to stimulate the body's production of antibodies and provide immunity against a disease without causing the disease itself in the treatment, prepared from the agent that causes the disease, or a synthetic substitute.
Wonder of wonder, vaccines are vaccines.

What does immunity mean?

I think that’s where you lose most people.
Same as it's always meant. It's something that triggers an immune response, which can be a dead pathogen or an artificial substitute. The "bounces off your chest" definition of immunity is not the one used in any medical context.

The problem with the covid vaccines is they trigger an immune response, but they don't do it in the upper respiratory system where respiratory viruses first enter the body and start replicating. That's why people still can get sick and display symptoms, because the virus is able to muster its forces before it reaches the part of the body with an active immune response. It's also why people have been vaccinated still spread the disease so easily, because the upper respiratory system is how we infect each other. In contrast, the natural immunity that develops after being infected includes mucosal immunity, which does protect the upper respiratory tract.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Shasarak on April 23, 2022, 04:37:18 PM
This has to be the most unintentionally hilarious post I've read this week. Are you delusional? On someone's payroll?

Of course the vaccines work. Everyone I know who are vaccinated and got covid had at worse minor symptoms. Stop being dumb.

They're not vaccines. A vaccine prevents infection, these jabs categorically do not (well, ARR of around 1%, do you fancy those chances?).
They're vaccines. They're vaccines that don't block the disease in the upper respiratory system, like natural immunity does, so they allow the virus to generate many copies of itself before the immune system reacts, making them very leaky. But you don't get to redefine words.

Why not?  The CDC changed the definition of "vaccine" simply for this one (the emails have leaked where they specifically referenced the Pfizer vaccine as the reason for changing the definitions on their website).  So, my response would be, what's good for the goose...
I'm against changing the definitions of words, for political purposes. "But they did it too!" isn't even a acceptable argument in kindergarten.

So, use the previous definition and see if it really applies to the jabs. If it did they wouldn't have changed it. Ergo the smart thing to do is to adhere to the previous one, just like the smart thing to do is to reject their re-definition of racism....
That's what I'm arguing for.

Here's the October 2019 definition from Wiktionary, the last before the Year of 14 Days. I'm using Wiktionary because it provides a verifiable and distributed history.

Quote from: Last edited by WingerBot (talk | contribs) as of 10:08, 14 October 2019.
vaccine (countable and uncountable, plural vaccines)

    (immunology) A substance given to stimulate the body's production of antibodies and provide immunity against a disease without causing the disease itself in the treatment, prepared from the agent that causes the disease, or a synthetic substitute.
Wonder of wonder, vaccines are vaccines.

What does immunity mean?

I think that’s where you lose most people.
Same as it's always meant. It's something that triggers an immune response, which can be a dead pathogen or an artificial substitute. The "bounces off your chest" definition of immunity is not the one used in any medical context.

The problem with the covid vaccines is they trigger an immune response, but they don't do it in the upper respiratory system where respiratory viruses first enter the body and start replicating. That's why people still can get sick and display symptoms, because the virus is able to muster its forces before it reaches the part of the body with an active immune response. It's also why people have been vaccinated still spread the disease so easily, because the upper respiratory system is how we infect each other. In contrast, the natural immunity that develops after being infected includes mucosal immunity, which does protect the upper respiratory tract.

So immunity is something that triggers an immune response?

And not, for example, something that stops you from being infected.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on April 23, 2022, 04:40:42 PM
This has to be the most unintentionally hilarious post I've read this week. Are you delusional? On someone's payroll?

Of course the vaccines work. Everyone I know who are vaccinated and got covid had at worse minor symptoms. Stop being dumb.

They're not vaccines. A vaccine prevents infection, these jabs categorically do not (well, ARR of around 1%, do you fancy those chances?).
They're vaccines. They're vaccines that don't block the disease in the upper respiratory system, like natural immunity does, so they allow the virus to generate many copies of itself before the immune system reacts, making them very leaky. But you don't get to redefine words.

Why not?  The CDC changed the definition of "vaccine" simply for this one (the emails have leaked where they specifically referenced the Pfizer vaccine as the reason for changing the definitions on their website).  So, my response would be, what's good for the goose...
I'm against changing the definitions of words, for political purposes. "But they did it too!" isn't even a acceptable argument in kindergarten.

So, use the previous definition and see if it really applies to the jabs. If it did they wouldn't have changed it. Ergo the smart thing to do is to adhere to the previous one, just like the smart thing to do is to reject their re-definition of racism....
That's what I'm arguing for.

Here's the October 2019 definition from Wiktionary, the last before the Year of 14 Days. I'm using Wiktionary because it provides a verifiable and distributed history.

Quote from: Last edited by WingerBot (talk | contribs) as of 10:08, 14 October 2019.
vaccine (countable and uncountable, plural vaccines)

    (immunology) A substance given to stimulate the body's production of antibodies and provide immunity against a disease without causing the disease itself in the treatment, prepared from the agent that causes the disease, or a synthetic substitute.
Wonder of wonder, vaccines are vaccines.

What does immunity mean?

I think that’s where you lose most people.
Same as it's always meant. It's something that triggers an immune response, which can be a dead pathogen or an artificial substitute. The "bounces off your chest" definition of immunity is not the one used in any medical context.

The problem with the covid vaccines is they trigger an immune response, but they don't do it in the upper respiratory system where respiratory viruses first enter the body and start replicating. That's why people still can get sick and display symptoms, because the virus is able to muster its forces before it reaches the part of the body with an active immune response. It's also why people have been vaccinated still spread the disease so easily, because the upper respiratory system is how we infect each other. In contrast, the natural immunity that develops after being infected includes mucosal immunity, which does protect the upper respiratory tract.

So immunity is something that triggers an immune response?

And not, for example, something that stops you from being infected.
The only thing that stops you from being infected is complete isolation from other people. And animal reservoirs.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Shasarak on April 23, 2022, 04:45:42 PM
This has to be the most unintentionally hilarious post I've read this week. Are you delusional? On someone's payroll?

Of course the vaccines work. Everyone I know who are vaccinated and got covid had at worse minor symptoms. Stop being dumb.

They're not vaccines. A vaccine prevents infection, these jabs categorically do not (well, ARR of around 1%, do you fancy those chances?).
They're vaccines. They're vaccines that don't block the disease in the upper respiratory system, like natural immunity does, so they allow the virus to generate many copies of itself before the immune system reacts, making them very leaky. But you don't get to redefine words.

Why not?  The CDC changed the definition of "vaccine" simply for this one (the emails have leaked where they specifically referenced the Pfizer vaccine as the reason for changing the definitions on their website).  So, my response would be, what's good for the goose...
I'm against changing the definitions of words, for political purposes. "But they did it too!" isn't even a acceptable argument in kindergarten.

So, use the previous definition and see if it really applies to the jabs. If it did they wouldn't have changed it. Ergo the smart thing to do is to adhere to the previous one, just like the smart thing to do is to reject their re-definition of racism....
That's what I'm arguing for.

Here's the October 2019 definition from Wiktionary, the last before the Year of 14 Days. I'm using Wiktionary because it provides a verifiable and distributed history.

Quote from: Last edited by WingerBot (talk | contribs) as of 10:08, 14 October 2019.
vaccine (countable and uncountable, plural vaccines)

    (immunology) A substance given to stimulate the body's production of antibodies and provide immunity against a disease without causing the disease itself in the treatment, prepared from the agent that causes the disease, or a synthetic substitute.
Wonder of wonder, vaccines are vaccines.

What does immunity mean?

I think that’s where you lose most people.
Same as it's always meant. It's something that triggers an immune response, which can be a dead pathogen or an artificial substitute. The "bounces off your chest" definition of immunity is not the one used in any medical context.

The problem with the covid vaccines is they trigger an immune response, but they don't do it in the upper respiratory system where respiratory viruses first enter the body and start replicating. That's why people still can get sick and display symptoms, because the virus is able to muster its forces before it reaches the part of the body with an active immune response. It's also why people have been vaccinated still spread the disease so easily, because the upper respiratory system is how we infect each other. In contrast, the natural immunity that develops after being infected includes mucosal immunity, which does protect the upper respiratory tract.

So immunity is something that triggers an immune response?

And not, for example, something that stops you from being infected.
The only thing that stops you from being infected is complete isolation from other people. And animal reservoirs.

We have many real vaccines that do stop you from being infected because they trigger an immune response
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on April 23, 2022, 04:55:08 PM
The only thing that stops you from being infected is complete isolation from other people. And animal reservoirs.

We have many real vaccines that do stop you from being infected because they trigger an immune response
Where's the facepalm emoji?

What does an immune response respond to? An infection. By definition, an immune response is a reaction to an infection, not something that stops an infection from happening in the first place.

I get that you're trying to troll, but this is really sad.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Shasarak on April 23, 2022, 05:35:29 PM
The only thing that stops you from being infected is complete isolation from other people. And animal reservoirs.

We have many real vaccines that do stop you from being infected because they trigger an immune response
Where's the facepalm emoji?

What does an immune response respond to? An infection. By definition, an immune response is a reaction to an infection, not something that stops an infection from happening in the first place.

I get that you're trying to troll, but this is really sad.

I’m trying to troll? Sure man

When fully boosted people are still being infected with Wuhan 3.0 then spin definitions of immune to me again. Cause that’s some good trolling.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: GeekyBugle on April 23, 2022, 09:15:36 PM
This has to be the most unintentionally hilarious post I've read this week. Are you delusional? On someone's payroll?

Of course the vaccines work. Everyone I know who are vaccinated and got covid had at worse minor symptoms. Stop being dumb.

They're not vaccines. A vaccine prevents infection, these jabs categorically do not (well, ARR of around 1%, do you fancy those chances?).
They're vaccines. They're vaccines that don't block the disease in the upper respiratory system, like natural immunity does, so they allow the virus to generate many copies of itself before the immune system reacts, making them very leaky. But you don't get to redefine words.

Why not?  The CDC changed the definition of "vaccine" simply for this one (the emails have leaked where they specifically referenced the Pfizer vaccine as the reason for changing the definitions on their website).  So, my response would be, what's good for the goose...
I'm against changing the definitions of words, for political purposes. "But they did it too!" isn't even a acceptable argument in kindergarten.

So, use the previous definition and see if it really applies to the jabs. If it did they wouldn't have changed it. Ergo the smart thing to do is to adhere to the previous one, just like the smart thing to do is to reject their re-definition of racism....
That's what I'm arguing for.

Here's the October 2019 definition from Wiktionary, the last before the Year of 14 Days. I'm using Wiktionary because it provides a verifiable and distributed history.

Quote from: Last edited by WingerBot (talk | contribs) as of 10:08, 14 October 2019.
vaccine (countable and uncountable, plural vaccines)

    (immunology) A substance given to stimulate the body's production of antibodies and provide immunity against a disease without causing the disease itself in the treatment, prepared from the agent that causes the disease, or a synthetic substitute.
Wonder of wonder, vaccines are vaccines.

So, the jabs, that don't grant you immunity nor stop you from getting the commie coof or spreading it are vaccines because vaccines grant you immunity?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on April 23, 2022, 10:01:11 PM
The only thing that stops you from being infected is complete isolation from other people. And animal reservoirs.

We have many real vaccines that do stop you from being infected because they trigger an immune response
Where's the facepalm emoji?

What does an immune response respond to? An infection. By definition, an immune response is a reaction to an infection, not something that stops an infection from happening in the first place.

I get that you're trying to troll, but this is really sad.

I’m trying to troll? Sure man

When fully boosted people are still being infected with Wuhan 3.0 then spin definitions of immune to me again. Cause that’s some good trolling.
Oh, you're just an idiot.

Sorry for mistaking you for a troll.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on April 23, 2022, 10:01:36 PM
This has to be the most unintentionally hilarious post I've read this week. Are you delusional? On someone's payroll?

Of course the vaccines work. Everyone I know who are vaccinated and got covid had at worse minor symptoms. Stop being dumb.

They're not vaccines. A vaccine prevents infection, these jabs categorically do not (well, ARR of around 1%, do you fancy those chances?).
They're vaccines. They're vaccines that don't block the disease in the upper respiratory system, like natural immunity does, so they allow the virus to generate many copies of itself before the immune system reacts, making them very leaky. But you don't get to redefine words.

Why not?  The CDC changed the definition of "vaccine" simply for this one (the emails have leaked where they specifically referenced the Pfizer vaccine as the reason for changing the definitions on their website).  So, my response would be, what's good for the goose...
I'm against changing the definitions of words, for political purposes. "But they did it too!" isn't even a acceptable argument in kindergarten.

So, use the previous definition and see if it really applies to the jabs. If it did they wouldn't have changed it. Ergo the smart thing to do is to adhere to the previous one, just like the smart thing to do is to reject their re-definition of racism....
That's what I'm arguing for.

Here's the October 2019 definition from Wiktionary, the last before the Year of 14 Days. I'm using Wiktionary because it provides a verifiable and distributed history.

Quote from: Last edited by WingerBot (talk | contribs) as of 10:08, 14 October 2019.
vaccine (countable and uncountable, plural vaccines)

    (immunology) A substance given to stimulate the body's production of antibodies and provide immunity against a disease without causing the disease itself in the treatment, prepared from the agent that causes the disease, or a synthetic substitute.
Wonder of wonder, vaccines are vaccines.

So, the jabs, that don't grant you immunity nor stop you from getting the commie coof or spreading it are vaccines because vaccines grant you immunity?
Learn what words mean.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Shasarak on April 24, 2022, 02:44:22 AM
The only thing that stops you from being infected is complete isolation from other people. And animal reservoirs.

We have many real vaccines that do stop you from being infected because they trigger an immune response
Where's the facepalm emoji?

What does an immune response respond to? An infection. By definition, an immune response is a reaction to an infection, not something that stops an infection from happening in the first place.

I get that you're trying to troll, but this is really sad.

I’m trying to troll? Sure man

When fully boosted people are still being infected with Wuhan 3.0 then spin definitions of immune to me again. Cause that’s some good trolling.
Oh, you're just an idiot.

Sorry for mistaking you for a troll.

Not bad, but needs to be snappier.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on April 24, 2022, 05:12:36 AM
We have many real vaccines that do stop you from being infected because they trigger an immune response

Bingo! Like the measles vaccine, which only works 93% of the time. As in for the vast majority of people, it stops them contracting an infection altogether.

That only happens in around 1% of cases with the covid jabs, because they are not vaccines. Same as the flu jab is not a vaccine. Oh, they "trigger an immune response" - who gives a fuck if that doesn't actually stop an infection, or frankly do anything else?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Shasarak on April 24, 2022, 05:54:58 AM
We have many real vaccines that do stop you from being infected because they trigger an immune response

Bingo! Like the measles vaccine, which only works 93% of the time. As in for the vast majority of people, it stops them contracting an infection altogether.

That only happens in around 1% of cases with the covid jabs, because they are not vaccines. Same as the flu jab is not a vaccine. Oh, they "trigger an immune response" - who gives a fuck if that doesn't actually stop an infection, or frankly do anything else?

They should just have called it a therapeutic but it would have been harder to get the Karens riled up.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on April 24, 2022, 06:10:42 AM
We have many real vaccines that do stop you from being infected because they trigger an immune response

Bingo! Like the measles vaccine, which only works 93% of the time. As in for the vast majority of people, it stops them contracting an infection altogether.

That only happens in around 1% of cases with the covid jabs, because they are not vaccines. Same as the flu jab is not a vaccine. Oh, they "trigger an immune response" - who gives a fuck if that doesn't actually stop an infection, or frankly do anything else?
Nope, that's not how vaccines work. The measles vaccine doesn't create a magical shield that viruses bounce off. What it does is create a robust immune response, when you are infected. They may prevent a symptomatic infection, or prevent the expression of the disease. But if your T cells and so on got activated, you were infected.

This is medicine 101.

And the covid vaccines do stop an infection. Not in the upper respiratory track, but the in lower. That's why they're terrible at preventing the spread, and why many vaxxed people become symptomatic, but it's also why the more severe effects are mitigated.

And they're vaccines. You can't redefine words just because you don't like something. It's like calling you subhuman because you keep posting this stuff.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on April 24, 2022, 06:19:10 AM
Nope, that's not how vaccines work. The measles vaccine doesn't create a magical shield that viruses bounce off. What it does is create a robust immune response, when you are infected. They may prevent a symptomatic infection, or prevent the expression of the disease. But if your T cells and so on got activated, you were infected.

This is medicine 101.

And the covid vaccines do stop an infection. Not in the upper respiratory track, but the in lower. That's why they're terrible at preventing the spread, and why many vaxxed people become symptomatic, but it's also why the more severe effects are mitigated.

And they're vaccines. You can't redefine words just because you don't like something. It's like calling you subhuman because you keep posting this stuff.

You're dissembling, which is classic ego defense, trying to justify the fact that you were sold snake oil. Which I get, but it's really rather silly.

"Stopping an infection in the lower respiratory tract" (which frankly sound like bollocks invented by the manufacturers) is irrelevant, given as you admit it doesn't stop onward transmission, and it also doesn't stop vulnerable people from dying. It is utterly pointless.

They're not vaccines, vaccines prevent infection. Which they categorically do not.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on April 24, 2022, 09:29:02 AM
We have many real vaccines that do stop you from being infected because they trigger an immune response

Bingo! Like the measles vaccine, which only works 93% of the time. As in for the vast majority of people, it stops them contracting an infection altogether.

That only happens in around 1% of cases with the covid jabs, because they are not vaccines. Same as the flu jab is not a vaccine. Oh, they "trigger an immune response" - who gives a fuck if that doesn't actually stop an infection, or frankly do anything else?
Nope, that's not how vaccines work. The measles vaccine doesn't create a magical shield that viruses bounce off. What it does is create a robust immune response, when you are infected. They may prevent a symptomatic infection, or prevent the expression of the disease. But if your T cells and so on got activated, you were infected.

This is medicine 101.

And the covid vaccines do stop an infection. Not in the upper respiratory track, but the in lower. That's why they're terrible at preventing the spread, and why many vaxxed people become symptomatic, but it's also why the more severe effects are mitigated.

And they're vaccines. You can't redefine words just because you don't like something. It's like calling you subhuman because you keep posting this stuff.
Perhaps take advice from the tale of Joe and just tell them you can talk to the virus and it doesn't like the vaccine.
(https://i.imgflip.com/3kox0r.jpg)
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on April 24, 2022, 10:00:20 AM
Perhaps take advice from the tale of Joe and just tell them you can talk to the virus and it doesn't like the vaccine.
(https://i.imgflip.com/3kox0r.jpg)

How cute, HappyDerp thinks "logic and reason" were involved in his bovine acceptance of the narrative.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on April 24, 2022, 03:39:17 PM
How is it some of you think a vaccine can prevent all infection? How would the vaccine respond to the virus if you're not infected with the virus? What is it you imagine the vaccine can do, prior to being infected, to prevent infection? Or maybe I should ask, what is it you think the word infection means?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: jeff37923 on April 24, 2022, 04:53:29 PM
This is another example of Mistwell being a liar by misrepresenting the argument.

How is it some of you think a vaccine can prevent all infection?
Nobody has said that the vaccine is a panacea against ALL infections. That is your lie.

How would the vaccine respond to the virus if you're not infected with the virus?

A vaccine works by stimulating your immune system to produce antibodies, exactly like it would if you were exposed to the disease. After getting vaccinated, you develop immunity to that disease, without having to get the disease first. So, the vaccine infects you with a dead virus.

What is it you imagine the vaccine can do, prior to being infected, to prevent infection?

See above. Or at least relearn high school biology.

Or maybe I should ask, what is it you think the word infection means?

Hell, considering that you apparently don't know how a vaccine works, you should ask yourself if you understand what you are trying to say first.

Fucking tourist.....
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on April 24, 2022, 07:12:20 PM
Nope, that's not how vaccines work. The measles vaccine doesn't create a magical shield that viruses bounce off. What it does is create a robust immune response, when you are infected. They may prevent a symptomatic infection, or prevent the expression of the disease. But if your T cells and so on got activated, you were infected.

This is medicine 101.

And the covid vaccines do stop an infection. Not in the upper respiratory track, but the in lower. That's why they're terrible at preventing the spread, and why many vaxxed people become symptomatic, but it's also why the more severe effects are mitigated.

And they're vaccines. You can't redefine words just because you don't like something. It's like calling you subhuman because you keep posting this stuff.

You're dissembling, which is classic ego defense, trying to justify the fact that you were sold snake oil. Which I get, but it's really rather silly.

"Stopping an infection in the lower respiratory tract" (which frankly sound like bollocks invented by the manufacturers) is irrelevant, given as you admit it doesn't stop onward transmission, and it also doesn't stop vulnerable people from dying. It is utterly pointless.

They're not vaccines, vaccines prevent infection. Which they categorically do not.
Look, we get it. Your education in matters medical hasn't gotten as far as germ theory. You believe in humors, leeches, and that disease is caused by evil spirits.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Shasarak on April 24, 2022, 08:17:26 PM
Kiero is not on the side advocating for surgical masks stopping viruses.

But please, tell us more of this "germ" theory
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Eirikrautha on April 24, 2022, 08:59:43 PM
Nope, that's not how vaccines work. The measles vaccine doesn't create a magical shield that viruses bounce off. What it does is create a robust immune response, when you are infected. They may prevent a symptomatic infection, or prevent the expression of the disease. But if your T cells and so on got activated, you were infected.

This is medicine 101.

And the covid vaccines do stop an infection. Not in the upper respiratory track, but the in lower. That's why they're terrible at preventing the spread, and why many vaxxed people become symptomatic, but it's also why the more severe effects are mitigated.

And they're vaccines. You can't redefine words just because you don't like something. It's like calling you subhuman because you keep posting this stuff.

You're dissembling, which is classic ego defense, trying to justify the fact that you were sold snake oil. Which I get, but it's really rather silly.

"Stopping an infection in the lower respiratory tract" (which frankly sound like bollocks invented by the manufacturers) is irrelevant, given as you admit it doesn't stop onward transmission, and it also doesn't stop vulnerable people from dying. It is utterly pointless.

They're not vaccines, vaccines prevent infection. Which they categorically do not.
Look, we get it. Your education in matters medical hasn't gotten as far as germ theory. You believe in humors, leeches, and that disease is caused by evil spirits.

CDC <2020:
"vaccination" = “The act of introducing a vaccine into the body to produce immunity to a specific disease”
"vaccine" = "A product that stimulates a person’s immune system to produce immunity to a specific disease, protecting the person from that disease. Vaccines are usually administered through needle injections, but can also be administered by mouth or sprayed into the nose."
"immunity" = "Protection from an infectious disease. If you are immune to a disease, you can be exposed to it without becoming infected."

CDC >2021
"vaccine" = "A preparation that is used to stimulate the body’s immune response against diseases. Vaccines are usually administered through needle injections, but some can be administered by mouth or sprayed into the nose."
"vaccination" = "The act of introducing a vaccine into the body to produce protection from a specific disease."

So, which of these sets 0f definitions is correct?  The definition of immunity that says "you can be exposed to it without becoming infected"? (Pro tip, both the previous and present definitions say that...)
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on April 24, 2022, 09:02:46 PM
Kiero is not on the side advocating for surgical masks stopping viruses.
Implying I am?

You're passed beyond idiot into Kieroland.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on April 24, 2022, 09:06:27 PM
CDC <2020:
"vaccination" = “The act of introducing a vaccine into the body to produce immunity to a specific disease”
"vaccine" = "A product that stimulates a person’s immune system to produce immunity to a specific disease, protecting the person from that disease. Vaccines are usually administered through needle injections, but can also be administered by mouth or sprayed into the nose."
"immunity" = "Protection from an infectious disease. If you are immune to a disease, you can be exposed to it without becoming infected."

CDC >2021
"vaccine" = "A preparation that is used to stimulate the body’s immune response against diseases. Vaccines are usually administered through needle injections, but some can be administered by mouth or sprayed into the nose."
"vaccination" = "The act of introducing a vaccine into the body to produce protection from a specific disease."

So, which of these sets 0f definitions is correct?  The definition of immunity that says "you can be exposed to it without becoming infected"? (Pro tip, both the previous and present definitions say that...)
With your complete lack of citations or references, I can't validate any of that or check context. Far as I know, it's something you wrote.

Compare that to what I did. I provided a cite, a page, and a specific edit for the definition I provided.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Zelen on April 24, 2022, 10:12:08 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/F0yexQh.png)

Concerning.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on April 25, 2022, 05:33:44 AM
That shows that the jabs are working!

Just not the way they're supposed to...
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Shasarak on April 25, 2022, 07:17:30 PM
Kiero is not on the side advocating for surgical masks stopping viruses.
Implying I am?

You're passed beyond idiot into Kieroland.

Sure Pat.  Just leave this to the experts, ok.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on April 25, 2022, 08:22:40 PM
Kiero is not on the side advocating for surgical masks stopping viruses.
Implying I am?

You're passed beyond idiot into Kieroland.

Sure Pat.  Just leave this to the experts, ok.
We need a cute little name for the two of you. Kierorak? Shashiero?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Shasarak on April 25, 2022, 08:54:50 PM
Kiero is not on the side advocating for surgical masks stopping viruses.
Implying I am?

You're passed beyond idiot into Kieroland.

Sure Pat.  Just leave this to the experts, ok.
We need a cute little name for the two of you. Kierorak? Shashiero?

Pataholic?  Pautistic? You decide!
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Eirikrautha on April 25, 2022, 10:38:11 PM
CDC <2020:
"vaccination" = “The act of introducing a vaccine into the body to produce immunity to a specific disease”
"vaccine" = "A product that stimulates a person’s immune system to produce immunity to a specific disease, protecting the person from that disease. Vaccines are usually administered through needle injections, but can also be administered by mouth or sprayed into the nose."
"immunity" = "Protection from an infectious disease. If you are immune to a disease, you can be exposed to it without becoming infected."

CDC >2021
"vaccine" = "A preparation that is used to stimulate the body’s immune response against diseases. Vaccines are usually administered through needle injections, but some can be administered by mouth or sprayed into the nose."
"vaccination" = "The act of introducing a vaccine into the body to produce protection from a specific disease."

So, which of these sets 0f definitions is correct?  The definition of immunity that says "you can be exposed to it without becoming infected"? (Pro tip, both the previous and present definitions say that...)
With your complete lack of citations or references, I can't validate any of that or check context. Far as I know, it's something you wrote.

Compare that to what I did. I provided a cite, a page, and a specific edit for the definition I provided.

Bullshit.  You can't argue with the content, so now you're going to attack the form.  Well, here are the wayback machine links to the CDC pages:

August 26, 2021 https://t.co/yjdLysHgQk

September 2, 2021 https://t.co/dyoQ73SIRB
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on April 26, 2022, 07:08:09 AM
Conspiracy theories from tin-foil hatters at MIT: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S027869152200206X

Highlights:
•mRNA vaccines promote sustained synthesis of the SARS-CoV-2 spike protein.
•The spike protein is neurotoxic, and it impairs DNA repair mechanisms.
•Suppression of type I interferon responses results in impaired innate immunity.
•The mRNA vaccines potentially cause increased risk to infectious diseases and cancer.
•Codon optimization results in G-rich mRNA that has unpredictable complex effects.

Quote
The mRNA SARS-CoV-2 vaccines were brought to market in response to the public health crises of Covid-19. The utilization of mRNA vaccines in the context of infectious disease has no precedent. The many alterations in the vaccine mRNA hide the mRNA from cellular defenses and promote a longer biological half-life and high production of spike protein. However, the immune response to the vaccine is very different from that to a SARS-CoV-2 infection. In this paper, we present evidence that vaccination induces a profound impairment in type I interferon signaling, which has diverse adverse consequences to human health. Immune cells that have taken up the vaccine nanoparticles release into circulation large numbers of exosomes containing spike protein along with critical microRNAs that induce a signaling response in recipient cells at distant sites. We also identify potential profound disturbances in regulatory control of protein synthesis and cancer surveillance. These disturbances potentially have a causal link to neurodegenerative disease, myocarditis, immune thrombocytopenia, Bell's palsy, liver disease, impaired adaptive immunity, impaired DNA damage response and tumorigenesis. We show evidence from the VAERS database supporting our hypothesis. We believe a comprehensive risk/benefit assessment of the mRNA vaccines questions them as positive contributors to public health.

There's even a handy graphic of the mechanism by which mRNA jabs fuck you up:

(https://ars.els-cdn.com/content/image/1-s2.0-S027869152200206X-ga1_lrg.jpg)

If you've been Pfizer'd or Moderna'd (particularly if you've had them multiple times), good luck! You'll need it.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on April 26, 2022, 08:00:43 AM
CDC <2020:
"vaccination" = “The act of introducing a vaccine into the body to produce immunity to a specific disease”
"vaccine" = "A product that stimulates a person’s immune system to produce immunity to a specific disease, protecting the person from that disease. Vaccines are usually administered through needle injections, but can also be administered by mouth or sprayed into the nose."
"immunity" = "Protection from an infectious disease. If you are immune to a disease, you can be exposed to it without becoming infected."

CDC >2021
"vaccine" = "A preparation that is used to stimulate the body’s immune response against diseases. Vaccines are usually administered through needle injections, but some can be administered by mouth or sprayed into the nose."
"vaccination" = "The act of introducing a vaccine into the body to produce protection from a specific disease."

So, which of these sets 0f definitions is correct?  The definition of immunity that says "you can be exposed to it without becoming infected"? (Pro tip, both the previous and present definitions say that...)
With your complete lack of citations or references, I can't validate any of that or check context. Far as I know, it's something you wrote.

Compare that to what I did. I provided a cite, a page, and a specific edit for the definition I provided.

Bullshit.  You can't argue with the content, so now you're going to attack the form.  Well, here are the wayback machine links to the CDC pages:

August 26, 2021 https://t.co/yjdLysHgQk

September 2, 2021 https://t.co/dyoQ73SIRB
Fuck you. I presented coherent arguments, and just got snark and complete nonsense in reply. The only thing of any substance were your quotes, but they weren't anything I specifically addressed, I wasn't familiar with them, you provided no context, and there wasn't enough information for me to look them up, so I asked for a cite. But you have to be a miserable little shit, like nearly everyone else on this board.

Let's see, here are all the definitions from the relevant pages:

Quote from: Aug 26
Immunity: Protection from an infectious disease. If you are immune to a disease, you can be exposed to it without becoming infected.

Vaccine: A product that stimulates a person’s immune system to produce immunity to a specific disease, protecting the person from that disease. Vaccines are usually administered through needle injections, but can also be administered by mouth or sprayed into the nose.

Vaccination: The act of introducing a vaccine into the body to produce immunity to a specific disease.

Immunization: A process by which a person becomes protected against a disease through vaccination. This term is often used interchangeably with vaccination or inoculation.
Quote from: Sep 02
Immunity: Protection from an infectious disease. If you are immune to a disease, you can be exposed to it without becoming infected.

Vaccine: A preparation that is used to stimulate the body’s immune response against diseases. Vaccines are usually administered through needle injections, but some can be administered by mouth or sprayed into the nose.

Vaccination: The act of introducing a vaccine into the body to produce protection from a specific disease.

Immunization: A process by which a person becomes protected against a disease through vaccination. This term is often used interchangeably with vaccination or inoculation.
I highlighted the differences.

They're not great definitions. But both point out that "immunity" is just a form of protection, and "can" (rather than "will") prevent infection -- and I don't agree with their use of the word "infected". There's some completely pointless copyediting (also vs. some). The big change is from a specific disease to disease in general, which seems a bit off. But in both edits, even that segment makes it clear that immunity is about the immune response.

So what's the fuss? It looks like they were trying to clarify that immunity means priming the body's natural immune response, but they didn't do a very good job because the two edits ended up being semantically equivalent.

If all you care about is "infection", then an implied meaning from a source that's not explicitly defining the word is rather indirect. Here are two fairly authoritative sources that directly define the word, and use it the way I do:
https://www.medicinenet.com/infection/definition.htm
https://www.cancer.gov/publications/dictionaries/cancer-terms/def/infection
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: GeekyBugle on April 26, 2022, 01:33:22 PM
Pfizer knew their "vaccines" would kill.

https://twitter.com/rubengluengas/status/1518987853207846913 (https://twitter.com/rubengluengas/status/1518987853207846913)

Pray for me.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on April 27, 2022, 09:06:26 AM
CDC <2020:
"vaccination" = “The act of introducing a vaccine into the body to produce immunity to a specific disease”
"vaccine" = "A product that stimulates a person’s immune system to produce immunity to a specific disease, protecting the person from that disease. Vaccines are usually administered through needle injections, but can also be administered by mouth or sprayed into the nose."
"immunity" = "Protection from an infectious disease. If you are immune to a disease, you can be exposed to it without becoming infected."

CDC >2021
"vaccine" = "A preparation that is used to stimulate the body’s immune response against diseases. Vaccines are usually administered through needle injections, but some can be administered by mouth or sprayed into the nose."
"vaccination" = "The act of introducing a vaccine into the body to produce protection from a specific disease."

So, which of these sets 0f definitions is correct?  The definition of immunity that says "you can be exposed to it without becoming infected"? (Pro tip, both the previous and present definitions say that...)
With your complete lack of citations or references, I can't validate any of that or check context. Far as I know, it's something you wrote.

Compare that to what I did. I provided a cite, a page, and a specific edit for the definition I provided.

Bullshit.  You can't argue with the content, so now you're going to attack the form.  Well, here are the wayback machine links to the CDC pages:

August 26, 2021 https://t.co/yjdLysHgQk

September 2, 2021 https://t.co/dyoQ73SIRB
Fuck you. I presented coherent arguments, and just got snark and complete nonsense in reply. The only thing of any substance were your quotes, but they weren't anything I specifically addressed, I wasn't familiar with them, you provided no context, and there wasn't enough information for me to look them up, so I asked for a cite. But you have to be a miserable little shit, like nearly everyone else on this board.

Let's see, here are all the definitions from the relevant pages:

Quote from: Aug 26
Immunity: Protection from an infectious disease. If you are immune to a disease, you can be exposed to it without becoming infected.

Vaccine: A product that stimulates a person’s immune system to produce immunity to a specific disease, protecting the person from that disease. Vaccines are usually administered through needle injections, but can also be administered by mouth or sprayed into the nose.

Vaccination: The act of introducing a vaccine into the body to produce immunity to a specific disease.

Immunization: A process by which a person becomes protected against a disease through vaccination. This term is often used interchangeably with vaccination or inoculation.
Quote from: Sep 02
Immunity: Protection from an infectious disease. If you are immune to a disease, you can be exposed to it without becoming infected.

Vaccine: A preparation that is used to stimulate the body’s immune response against diseases. Vaccines are usually administered through needle injections, but some can be administered by mouth or sprayed into the nose.

Vaccination: The act of introducing a vaccine into the body to produce protection from a specific disease.

Immunization: A process by which a person becomes protected against a disease through vaccination. This term is often used interchangeably with vaccination or inoculation.
I highlighted the differences.

They're not great definitions. But both point out that "immunity" is just a form of protection, and "can" (rather than "will") prevent infection -- and I don't agree with their use of the word "infected". There's some completely pointless copyediting (also vs. some). The big change is from a specific disease to disease in general, which seems a bit off. But in both edits, even that segment makes it clear that immunity is about the immune response.

So what's the fuss? It looks like they were trying to clarify that immunity means priming the body's natural immune response, but they didn't do a very good job because the two edits ended up being semantically equivalent.

If all you care about is "infection", then an implied meaning from a source that's not explicitly defining the word is rather indirect. Here are two fairly authoritative sources that directly define the word, and use it the way I do:
https://www.medicinenet.com/infection/definition.htm
https://www.cancer.gov/publications/dictionaries/cancer-terms/def/infection

  Personal question, and no judgement (I know many people of all political bent who got it), did you get the vaccine?  My position has always been if you want it get it.  I also understand the textbook definition of a vaccine, but there is also a publicly acknowledged understanding of what a vaccine does (with regards to actual efficacy) that the CDC felt a HUGE need to "clarify" when massive pharma corps decided to roll something out that was not functioning as the publicly understood standard for a vaccine on a large scale.  I ask because you seem to be semantically defending a term in a way that seems you have an investment in doing so.  Again, get the shot, dont get the shot I think people can make the best decisions for their own health and bodies and situations.   I know you like to argue and get into the details, but it seems you are reaching into the clinical full well knowing the publicly acknowledged understanding of a vaccine function is NOT what the vaccine for captain tripps has been.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Battlemaster on April 27, 2022, 10:03:10 AM
"Imprison anyone who refusrs the vax'?

Meh, for decades in 'murca the system imprisoned people for refusing to just say no to marijuana. Probably a couple million people were imprisoned for smoking a farly benign drug because the rightards linked it to minorities.

So hell, if it was ok to lock up a few million people and hang felony convictions on them for life over a pretty mild drug no worse and maybe not as bad as alcohol, why not the some rightards in prison for refusing to "just oveu the law"?

And anyway, fuck the right.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ghostmaker on April 27, 2022, 10:29:53 AM
"Imprison anyone who refusrs the vax'?

Meh, for decades in 'murca the system imprisoned people for refusing to just say no to marijuana. Probably a couple million people were imprisoned for smoking a farly benign drug because the rightards linked it to minorities.

So hell, if it was ok to lock up a few million people and hang felony convictions on them for life over a pretty mild drug no worse and maybe not as bad as alcohol, why not the some rightards in prison for refusing to "just oveu the law"?

And anyway, fuck the right.
Man, you'd be more effective if you weren't a butthurt little bitch.

See, a funny thing happened on the way to the current year: there's a number of conservative-libertarian types who've been pointing out that all the 'war on some recreational substances' has done is erode constitutional protections (fourth and fifth in particular) as well as contribute to the increasing militarization of police. And they don't like that shit one bit.

But hey, keep your brain mired in that quagmire of shitty emotional thinking. The pendulum is starting to move.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: GeekyBugle on April 27, 2022, 10:46:58 AM
"Imprison anyone who refusrs the vax'?

Meh, for decades in 'murca the system imprisoned people for refusing to just say no to marijuana. Probably a couple million people were imprisoned for smoking a farly benign drug because the rightards linked it to minorities.

So hell, if it was ok to lock up a few million people and hang felony convictions on them for life over a pretty mild drug no worse and maybe not as bad as alcohol, why not the some rightards in prison for refusing to "just oveu the law"?

And anyway, fuck the right.

Like I said, he's your garden variety fascist.

Like all leftards he thinks that if it's not forbidden it's mandatory, and since it's not forbidden to take a vax you should be made to take whatever experimental drug the megabucks corporations decide to roll out.

That's why, in his addled brain, not consuming X (which breaks no laws) can be compared with consuming Y (which breaks laws).

And in the process he alienates all the rightwingers, libertarians who are against the "war on drugs".

Leftards aren't liberals, never were and never will be.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on April 27, 2022, 12:08:23 PM
"Imprison anyone who refusrs the vax'?

Meh, for decades in 'murca the system imprisoned people for refusing to just say no to marijuana. Probably a couple million people were imprisoned for smoking a farly benign drug because the rightards linked it to minorities.

So hell, if it was ok to lock up a few million people and hang felony convictions on them for life over a pretty mild drug no worse and maybe not as bad as alcohol, why not the some rightards in prison for refusing to "just oveu the law"?

And anyway, fuck the right.

  If you ever get what you are asking for here, just remember you asked for it.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ratman_tf on April 27, 2022, 04:06:33 PM
"Imprison anyone who refusrs the vax'?

Meh, for decades in 'murca the system imprisoned people for refusing to just say no to marijuana. Probably a couple million people were imprisoned for smoking a farly benign drug because the rightards linked it to minorities.

So hell, if it was ok to lock up a few million people and hang felony convictions on them for life over a pretty mild drug no worse and maybe not as bad as alcohol, why not the some rightards in prison for refusing to "just oveu the law"?

And anyway, fuck the right.

Do you sincerely want to keep marijuana illegal in order to justify making getting vaccinated legally mandatory?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: GeekyBugle on April 27, 2022, 06:35:44 PM
"Imprison anyone who refusrs the vax'?

Meh, for decades in 'murca the system imprisoned people for refusing to just say no to marijuana. Probably a couple million people were imprisoned for smoking a farly benign drug because the rightards linked it to minorities.

So hell, if it was ok to lock up a few million people and hang felony convictions on them for life over a pretty mild drug no worse and maybe not as bad as alcohol, why not the some rightards in prison for refusing to "just oveu the law"?

And anyway, fuck the right.

Do you sincerely want to keep marijuana illegal in order to justify making getting vaccinated legally mandatory?

It's your body his choice, until it becomes time to murdering unborn babies, then it's her body her choice.

It's people should be able to put whatever in their bodies until it becomes people should not put invermectine in their bodies but should put experimental treatment X.

It's people should be able to choose when and how to die, until it becomes people should be forced to take X because he believes it will save lives.

With leftards it's never about principles because they have none, it's about power.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on April 27, 2022, 11:06:28 PM

  Personal question, and no judgement (I know many people of all political bent who got it), did you get the vaccine?  My position has always been if you want it get it.  I also understand the textbook definition of a vaccine, but there is also a publicly acknowledged understanding of what a vaccine does (with regards to actual efficacy) that the CDC felt a HUGE need to "clarify" when massive pharma corps decided to roll something out that was not functioning as the publicly understood standard for a vaccine on a large scale.  I ask because you seem to be semantically defending a term in a way that seems you have an investment in doing so.  Again, get the shot, dont get the shot I think people can make the best decisions for their own health and bodies and situations.   I know you like to argue and get into the details, but it seems you are reaching into the clinical full well knowing the publicly acknowledged understanding of a vaccine function is NOT what the vaccine for captain tripps has been.
I refuse to answer that question, even to my own doctor. When they start requiring medical papers and violating medical privacy, we need to resist where we can. It's fucking evil.

I'm arguing for the correct usage of a term because I believe we should defend what is correct, regardless of which side of the insanity it's been appropriated by. If you really believe that arguing in favor of the correct usage of words is a sign of investment or bias, then why are you ignoring all the people who are objecting to what I've said, and yet can't see to come up with even the facade of a reason? Their responses seem to be classic irrational partisanship. Even your response, muted as it is, seems to fall in the same rough category, because you ignored them and addressed me instead.

You're correct that a lot of people have a poor understanding of these medical terms. You're also correct that the CDC has lied a lot. That doesn't change what immunity or vaccination or infected means.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Bobloblah on April 27, 2022, 11:46:34 PM
This is a shockingly stupid exchange. The definition of "vaccine" was changed in the last few years (circa 2019). The current mRNA gene therapies, which is how Pfizer and Moderna refer to them in their own SEC filings, do not meet any prior definition of a vaccine. The CDC also changed their definition in late 2021.
Give.
Me.
A.
Fucking.
Break.
The term was changed and used for the covid "vaccines" so that:

Oh, and if you go back a bit further (circa ~2017), the term is defined by "immunity," which is, in fact, what most of the vaccines people are familiar with provide. Vaccines that do not do so are a newer thing, and they've mostly produced very poor results (e.g. HPV vaccine, new Pertussis vaccine, etc.)
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on April 28, 2022, 04:25:18 AM
This is a shockingly stupid exchange. The definition of "vaccine" was changed in the last few years (circa 2019). The current mRNA gene therapies, which is how Pfizer and Moderna refer to them in their own SEC filings, do not meet any prior definition of a vaccine. The CDC also changed their definition in late 2021.
Give.
Me.
A.
Fucking.
Break.
The term was changed and used for the covid "vaccines" so that:
  • People would get the warm and fuzzies by associating them with prior actual vaccines people were familiar with, and...
  • The regulatory burden to get these drugs approved would be much lower, and...
  • Once they were added to the US childhood vaccine schedule, there would be indemnity for the manufacturers without requiring EUA.

Oh, and if you go back a bit further (circa ~2017), the term is defined by "immunity," which is, in fact, what most of the vaccines people are familiar with provide. Vaccines that do not do so are a newer thing, and they've mostly produced very poor results (e.g. HPV vaccine, new Pertussis vaccine, etc.)

This a shockingly stupid response.

The term "immunity" means immune response, not a magical shield that makes bullets viruses bounce off your chest. The 2019 MW definition is correct but unclear on that topic.

"[K]illed microorganisms, living attenuated organisms, or living fully virulent organisms" is a list of the traditional types of vaccines, but that's a list of types not an attempt to define a general concept. It's a like defining a ball by listing a soccer ball, a baseball, and a basketball. Since that's just a of some examples and doesn't describe what "ball" means, introducing a football will lead to lots of stupid arguments.

So the 2019 definition is crap. That's kind of superficially acceptable but imprecise garbage you get when you refer to a non-technical source for a technical definition.

I don't doubt there were political motives for changing the definition, but the later definition, while far more verbose, is no better. It makes the same mistake of trying to define a word by listing different specific types.

Refer upthread to definitions by medical sources. Or refer to medical textbooks, of any year, for a much more comprehensive treatment.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ratman_tf on April 28, 2022, 07:14:20 AM
We don't have to imprison anyone. We can just harass them until they kill themselves.

https://nypost.com/2022/04/27/student-died-by-suicide-after-bullying-about-his-vaccination-status-suit/

(And yes, the cherry on the shit sundae is that the kid was actually vaccinated.)
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on April 28, 2022, 10:10:59 AM

  Personal question, and no judgement (I know many people of all political bent who got it), did you get the vaccine?  My position has always been if you want it get it.  I also understand the textbook definition of a vaccine, but there is also a publicly acknowledged understanding of what a vaccine does (with regards to actual efficacy) that the CDC felt a HUGE need to "clarify" when massive pharma corps decided to roll something out that was not functioning as the publicly understood standard for a vaccine on a large scale.  I ask because you seem to be semantically defending a term in a way that seems you have an investment in doing so.  Again, get the shot, dont get the shot I think people can make the best decisions for their own health and bodies and situations.   I know you like to argue and get into the details, but it seems you are reaching into the clinical full well knowing the publicly acknowledged understanding of a vaccine function is NOT what the vaccine for captain tripps has been.
I refuse to answer that question, even to my own doctor. When they start requiring medical papers and violating medical privacy, we need to resist where we can. It's fucking evil.

I'm arguing for the correct usage of a term because I believe we should defend what is correct, regardless of which side of the insanity it's been appropriated by. If you really believe that arguing in favor of the correct usage of words is a sign of investment or bias, then why are you ignoring all the people who are objecting to what I've said, and yet can't see to come up with even the facade of a reason? Their responses seem to be classic irrational partisanship. Even your response, muted as it is, seems to fall in the same rough category, because you ignored them and addressed me instead.

You're correct that a lot of people have a poor understanding of these medical terms. You're also correct that the CDC has lied a lot. That doesn't change what immunity or vaccination or infected means.

  I didnt ask them, because I know they are biased.   I asked you, because this seems to ignore what you know the public expects of a definition, and you also know the CDC decided to play word games.   I think it is fine if you got the shot, lots of older right or center leaning people I know who were skeptical did, because they figured it was less a risk than the virus.   Saying you do not even tell your own doctor if you got the shot though....seems like a lie.  Saying you do not want to tell me or anyone else though I accept it.  I was just pointing out your position seems a little too invested, but I could also see where your specificity on terms (which I think you demonstrated before on several threads and other subjects) could be the reason.  That is why I asked.

   If the "super official definition" has to be taken from a medical textbook, and seems to be different from what is taught in biology and in the dictionary....it sure looks like bullshit and using a word the public associates with one thing to be another.   
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on April 28, 2022, 10:21:00 AM
We don't have to imprison anyone. We can just harass them until they kill themselves.

https://nypost.com/2022/04/27/student-died-by-suicide-after-bullying-about-his-vaccination-status-suit/

(And yes, the cherry on the shit sundae is that the kid was actually vaccinated.)

  If I have to be honest, I see that much more as a problem with letting your kid use social media.  I think there is a good deal more to problems the kid may have had outside of vax rumors as well.  I am all for having issues with dickheads running their mouth about what a person decides to do with their own body...but I think this would not be the hill I would take to make that point.  I think it is likely a sad case of a kid who was having problems, and I really hate to say this, but his parents failed him as well as the school.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on April 28, 2022, 10:45:17 AM

  Personal question, and no judgement (I know many people of all political bent who got it), did you get the vaccine?  My position has always been if you want it get it.  I also understand the textbook definition of a vaccine, but there is also a publicly acknowledged understanding of what a vaccine does (with regards to actual efficacy) that the CDC felt a HUGE need to "clarify" when massive pharma corps decided to roll something out that was not functioning as the publicly understood standard for a vaccine on a large scale.  I ask because you seem to be semantically defending a term in a way that seems you have an investment in doing so.  Again, get the shot, dont get the shot I think people can make the best decisions for their own health and bodies and situations.   I know you like to argue and get into the details, but it seems you are reaching into the clinical full well knowing the publicly acknowledged understanding of a vaccine function is NOT what the vaccine for captain tripps has been.
I refuse to answer that question, even to my own doctor. When they start requiring medical papers and violating medical privacy, we need to resist where we can. It's fucking evil.

I'm arguing for the correct usage of a term because I believe we should defend what is correct, regardless of which side of the insanity it's been appropriated by. If you really believe that arguing in favor of the correct usage of words is a sign of investment or bias, then why are you ignoring all the people who are objecting to what I've said, and yet can't see to come up with even the facade of a reason? Their responses seem to be classic irrational partisanship. Even your response, muted as it is, seems to fall in the same rough category, because you ignored them and addressed me instead.

You're correct that a lot of people have a poor understanding of these medical terms. You're also correct that the CDC has lied a lot. That doesn't change what immunity or vaccination or infected means.

  I didnt ask them, because I know they are biased.   I asked you, because this seems to ignore what you know the public expects of a definition, and you also know the CDC decided to play word games.   I think it is fine if you got the shot, lots of older right or center leaning people I know who were skeptical did, because they figured it was less a risk than the virus.   Saying you do not even tell your own doctor if you got the shot though....seems like a lie.  Saying you do not want to tell me or anyone else though I accept it.  I was just pointing out your position seems a little too invested, but I could also see where your specificity on terms (which I think you demonstrated before on several threads and other subjects) could be the reason.  That is why I asked.

   If the "super official definition" has to be taken from a medical textbook, and seems to be different from what is taught in biology and in the dictionary....it sure looks like bullshit and using a word the public associates with one thing to be another.
Fuck you. My doctor aggressively asked if I had the vaccine, and I refused to tell her. If they're going to turn people's medical records into open books they can inspect at will, I'm going to resist at every step. You don't have to believe me, but since you're calling me a liar, I'm calling you a piece of shit.

And it's a technical term. You can't refer to a general dictionary for the authoritative definition of a technical term. That's how it works in every field. If you want to understand what "socialism" means, you have to read Kropotkin, Marx, Mises, and so on. Not Merriam-Webster.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on April 28, 2022, 10:47:42 AM

  Personal question, and no judgement (I know many people of all political bent who got it), did you get the vaccine?  My position has always been if you want it get it.  I also understand the textbook definition of a vaccine, but there is also a publicly acknowledged understanding of what a vaccine does (with regards to actual efficacy) that the CDC felt a HUGE need to "clarify" when massive pharma corps decided to roll something out that was not functioning as the publicly understood standard for a vaccine on a large scale.  I ask because you seem to be semantically defending a term in a way that seems you have an investment in doing so.  Again, get the shot, dont get the shot I think people can make the best decisions for their own health and bodies and situations.   I know you like to argue and get into the details, but it seems you are reaching into the clinical full well knowing the publicly acknowledged understanding of a vaccine function is NOT what the vaccine for captain tripps has been.
I refuse to answer that question, even to my own doctor. When they start requiring medical papers and violating medical privacy, we need to resist where we can. It's fucking evil.

I'm arguing for the correct usage of a term because I believe we should defend what is correct, regardless of which side of the insanity it's been appropriated by. If you really believe that arguing in favor of the correct usage of words is a sign of investment or bias, then why are you ignoring all the people who are objecting to what I've said, and yet can't see to come up with even the facade of a reason? Their responses seem to be classic irrational partisanship. Even your response, muted as it is, seems to fall in the same rough category, because you ignored them and addressed me instead.

You're correct that a lot of people have a poor understanding of these medical terms. You're also correct that the CDC has lied a lot. That doesn't change what immunity or vaccination or infected means.

  I didnt ask them, because I know they are biased.   I asked you, because this seems to ignore what you know the public expects of a definition, and you also know the CDC decided to play word games.   I think it is fine if you got the shot, lots of older right or center leaning people I know who were skeptical did, because they figured it was less a risk than the virus.   Saying you do not even tell your own doctor if you got the shot though....seems like a lie.  Saying you do not want to tell me or anyone else though I accept it.  I was just pointing out your position seems a little too invested, but I could also see where your specificity on terms (which I think you demonstrated before on several threads and other subjects) could be the reason.  That is why I asked.

   If the "super official definition" has to be taken from a medical textbook, and seems to be different from what is taught in biology and in the dictionary....it sure looks like bullshit and using a word the public associates with one thing to be another.
Fuck you. My doctor aggressively asked if I had the vaccine, and I refused to tell her. If they're going to turn people's medical records into open books they can inspect at will, I'm going to resist at every step. You don't have to believe me, but since you're calling me a liar, I'm calling you a piece of shit.

And it's a technical term. You can't refer to a general dictionary for the authoritative definition of a technical term. That's how it works in every field. If you want to understand what "socialism" means, you have to read Kropotkin, Marx, Mises, and so on. Not Merriam-Webster.

  Sounds to me like you need a new doctor, if you are not willing to share medical information with her....since that is sort of her job, to know your medical history.  Call me what you like, and keep that appeal to authority nit pick rolling.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on April 28, 2022, 11:20:50 AM

  Sounds to me like you need a new doctor, if you are not willing to share medical information with her....since that is sort of her job, to know your medical history.  Call me what you like, and keep that appeal to authority nit pick rolling.
Your opinion about my personal decisions and relationships is completely unwelcome, you vile little creep.

And if your definition of appeal to authority is that textbooks and specialized knowledge shouldn't exist, that's pretty stupid.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on April 28, 2022, 11:42:58 AM

  Sounds to me like you need a new doctor, if you are not willing to share medical information with her....since that is sort of her job, to know your medical history.  Call me what you like, and keep that appeal to authority nit pick rolling.
Your opinion about my personal decisions and relationships is completely unwelcome, you vile little creep.

And if your definition of appeal to authority is that textbooks and specialized knowledge shouldn't exist, that's pretty stupid.

  It is not that it shouldn't exist, but that is was invoked to pretend something they always meant one way "REALLY" always was meant "THIS" way.    I am sure everyone here thinks a dude who doesn't tell his personal doctor his medical history and decisions is 100 percent normal.  So you might be projecting a bit with a creep label.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on April 28, 2022, 11:50:06 AM

  Sounds to me like you need a new doctor, if you are not willing to share medical information with her....since that is sort of her job, to know your medical history.  Call me what you like, and keep that appeal to authority nit pick rolling.
Your opinion about my personal decisions and relationships is completely unwelcome, you vile little creep.

And if your definition of appeal to authority is that textbooks and specialized knowledge shouldn't exist, that's pretty stupid.

  It is not that it shouldn't exist, but that is was invoked to pretend something they always meant one way "REALLY" always was meant "THIS" way.    I am sure everyone here thinks a dude who doesn't tell his personal doctor his medical history and decisions is 100 percent normal.  So you might be projecting a bit with a creep label.
It always was that way.

You're disgusting piece of smegma, who asked for a bit of personal information I did not volunteer, but which I reluctantly shared in the spirit of good faith, and then you called me a liar and you're continuing to use it to attack me at a personal level, along with making wild suppositions and assumptions about who I am and what I believe that are just false. You're a worthless excuse for a human being.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on April 28, 2022, 11:57:49 AM

  Sounds to me like you need a new doctor, if you are not willing to share medical information with her....since that is sort of her job, to know your medical history.  Call me what you like, and keep that appeal to authority nit pick rolling.
Your opinion about my personal decisions and relationships is completely unwelcome, you vile little creep.

And if your definition of appeal to authority is that textbooks and specialized knowledge shouldn't exist, that's pretty stupid.

  It is not that it shouldn't exist, but that is was invoked to pretend something they always meant one way "REALLY" always was meant "THIS" way.    I am sure everyone here thinks a dude who doesn't tell his personal doctor his medical history and decisions is 100 percent normal.  So you might be projecting a bit with a creep label.
It always was that way.

You're disgusting piece of smegma, who asked for a bit of personal information I did not volunteer, but which I reluctantly shared in the spirit of good faith, and then you called me a liar and you're continuing to use it to attack me at a personal level, along with making wild suppositions and assumptions about who I am and what I believe that are just false. You're a worthless excuse for a human being.

  It was not the definition used to promote vaccines in the public sphere.  I am not attacking you, saying you would not tell your personal doctor your personal medical history sounds like bullshit to every reasonable person.  You explained how it was a true story, and I think it is weird as hell to not share personal medical history with your personal doctor (the person who has, keeps, and updates your medical records), but hey, maybe I am the odd man out and everyone does that.  If this sort of thing puts me as a worthless human being, I feel a little sorry for you. 
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on April 28, 2022, 12:04:07 PM
  It was not the definition used to promote vaccines in the public sphere.  I am not attacking you, saying you would not tell your personal doctor your personal medical history sounds like bullshit to every reasonable person.  You explained how it was a true story, and I think it is weird as hell to not share personal medical history with your personal doctor (the person who has, keeps, and updates your medical records), but hey, maybe I am the odd man out and everyone does that.  If this sort of thing puts me as a worthless human being, I feel a little sorry for you.
And again, more unwanted personal judgments. Fuck you, you waste of skin. People like you are the reason why we need an absolute ban, under all circumstances, any possibility of a vaccine passport. Because it will always be weaponized.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on April 28, 2022, 12:08:17 PM
  It was not the definition used to promote vaccines in the public sphere.  I am not attacking you, saying you would not tell your personal doctor your personal medical history sounds like bullshit to every reasonable person.  You explained how it was a true story, and I think it is weird as hell to not share personal medical history with your personal doctor (the person who has, keeps, and updates your medical records), but hey, maybe I am the odd man out and everyone does that.  If this sort of thing puts me as a worthless human being, I feel a little sorry for you.
And again, more unwanted personal judgments. Fuck you, you waste of skin. People like you are the reason why we need an absolute ban, under all circumstances, any possibility of a vaccine passport. Because it will always be weaponized.

  I bet you hide your income and previous tax returns from your accountant as well.   Did you hit your head?  It will be ok to tell your doctor if you did. The connection you made here with me and vaccine passports seems you are confused. 
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on April 28, 2022, 01:35:43 PM
  It was not the definition used to promote vaccines in the public sphere.  I am not attacking you, saying you would not tell your personal doctor your personal medical history sounds like bullshit to every reasonable person.  You explained how it was a true story, and I think it is weird as hell to not share personal medical history with your personal doctor (the person who has, keeps, and updates your medical records), but hey, maybe I am the odd man out and everyone does that.  If this sort of thing puts me as a worthless human being, I feel a little sorry for you.
And again, more unwanted personal judgments. Fuck you, you waste of skin. People like you are the reason why we need an absolute ban, under all circumstances, any possibility of a vaccine passport. Because it will always be weaponized.

  I bet you hide your income and previous tax returns from your accountant as well.   Did you hit your head?  It will be ok to tell your doctor if you did. The connection you made here with me and vaccine passports seems you are confused.
I don't, you despicable walking blot on the human race. That's just you, projecting and insinuating like a slimeball masquerading as a human.

You're also thick as a brick and half as intelligent, which is apparently why you can't even put 1 and 1 together to get 2. Conversations about medical issues with a doctor aren't private. They're documented in medical record systems, which are supposedly shared with other providers who have a need to know, but in practice are widely accessible, data mined, and now there's a demand for parts of those records to be available to random merchants, and of course the government wants the it does. This isn't a failure of personal trust. This is how the state destroys the doctor-patient relationship. Resisting, in all the myriad ways, is the only way we'll stop this encroachment. And by "we", of course, I mean everyone but you.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on April 28, 2022, 04:09:28 PM
  It was not the definition used to promote vaccines in the public sphere.  I am not attacking you, saying you would not tell your personal doctor your personal medical history sounds like bullshit to every reasonable person.  You explained how it was a true story, and I think it is weird as hell to not share personal medical history with your personal doctor (the person who has, keeps, and updates your medical records), but hey, maybe I am the odd man out and everyone does that.  If this sort of thing puts me as a worthless human being, I feel a little sorry for you.
And again, more unwanted personal judgments. Fuck you, you waste of skin. People like you are the reason why we need an absolute ban, under all circumstances, any possibility of a vaccine passport. Because it will always be weaponized.

  I bet you hide your income and previous tax returns from your accountant as well.   Did you hit your head?  It will be ok to tell your doctor if you did. The connection you made here with me and vaccine passports seems you are confused.
I don't, you despicable walking blot on the human race. That's just you, projecting and insinuating like a slimeball masquerading as a human.

You're also thick as a brick and half as intelligent, which is apparently why you can't even put 1 and 1 together to get 2. Conversations about medical issues with a doctor aren't private. They're documented in medical record systems, which are supposedly shared with other providers who have a need to know, but in practice are widely accessible, data mined, and now there's a demand for parts of those records to be available to random merchants, and of course the government wants the it does. This isn't a failure of personal trust. This is how the state destroys the doctor-patient relationship. Resisting, in all the myriad ways, is the only way we'll stop this encroachment. And by "we", of course, I mean everyone but you.

  You realize how insane you sound, when the doctor, YOUR doctor, that YOU chose to go to asks a medical question and you sperg out on her?   I would expect the person who does not share medical information with HIS CHOSEN doctor that he CHOSE to go to, probably keeps pertinent information from his accountant who he also goes to (making both have harder jobs).  Of course I am the one as thick as a brick for not understanding why a person who chose to go to a doctor, presumably for their own medical well being, would make said doctor's job harder by hiding any medical information.    Given the rest of your rant, it appears NOT going to a doctor would serve your interests best.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ratman_tf on April 28, 2022, 04:12:58 PM
We don't have to imprison anyone. We can just harass them until they kill themselves.

https://nypost.com/2022/04/27/student-died-by-suicide-after-bullying-about-his-vaccination-status-suit/

(And yes, the cherry on the shit sundae is that the kid was actually vaccinated.)

  If I have to be honest, I see that much more as a problem with letting your kid use social media.  I think there is a good deal more to problems the kid may have had outside of vax rumors as well.  I am all for having issues with dickheads running their mouth about what a person decides to do with their own body...but I think this would not be the hill I would take to make that point.  I think it is likely a sad case of a kid who was having problems, and I really hate to say this, but his parents failed him as well as the school.

There's no hill, and I'm not going to die. I just brought it up since it was relevant to the discussion.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on April 28, 2022, 04:20:09 PM
  It was not the definition used to promote vaccines in the public sphere.  I am not attacking you, saying you would not tell your personal doctor your personal medical history sounds like bullshit to every reasonable person.  You explained how it was a true story, and I think it is weird as hell to not share personal medical history with your personal doctor (the person who has, keeps, and updates your medical records), but hey, maybe I am the odd man out and everyone does that.  If this sort of thing puts me as a worthless human being, I feel a little sorry for you.
And again, more unwanted personal judgments. Fuck you, you waste of skin. People like you are the reason why we need an absolute ban, under all circumstances, any possibility of a vaccine passport. Because it will always be weaponized.

  I bet you hide your income and previous tax returns from your accountant as well.   Did you hit your head?  It will be ok to tell your doctor if you did. The connection you made here with me and vaccine passports seems you are confused.
I don't, you despicable walking blot on the human race. That's just you, projecting and insinuating like a slimeball masquerading as a human.

You're also thick as a brick and half as intelligent, which is apparently why you can't even put 1 and 1 together to get 2. Conversations about medical issues with a doctor aren't private. They're documented in medical record systems, which are supposedly shared with other providers who have a need to know, but in practice are widely accessible, data mined, and now there's a demand for parts of those records to be available to random merchants, and of course the government wants the it does. This isn't a failure of personal trust. This is how the state destroys the doctor-patient relationship. Resisting, in all the myriad ways, is the only way we'll stop this encroachment. And by "we", of course, I mean everyone but you.

  You realize how insane you sound, when the doctor, YOUR doctor, that YOU chose to go to asks a medical question and you sperg out on her?   I would expect the person who does not share medical information with HIS CHOSEN doctor that he CHOSE to go to, probably keeps pertinent information from his accountant who he also goes to (making both have harder jobs).  Of course I am the one as thick as a brick for not understanding why a person who chose to go to a doctor, presumably for their own medical well being, would make said doctor's job harder by hiding any medical information.    Given the rest of your rant, it appears NOT going to a doctor would serve your interests best.
I simply said no. Normal human beings accept that, and don't start accusing others of being crazy. And I also said you you were wrong about all the other accusations you made, which you're doubling down on here because you're a genuinely terrible person with no respect for boundaries, or other people. You're an empty soul with no value.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on April 28, 2022, 04:23:14 PM
We don't have to imprison anyone. We can just harass them until they kill themselves.

https://nypost.com/2022/04/27/student-died-by-suicide-after-bullying-about-his-vaccination-status-suit/

(And yes, the cherry on the shit sundae is that the kid was actually vaccinated.)

  If I have to be honest, I see that much more as a problem with letting your kid use social media.  I think there is a good deal more to problems the kid may have had outside of vax rumors as well.  I am all for having issues with dickheads running their mouth about what a person decides to do with their own body...but I think this would not be the hill I would take to make that point.  I think it is likely a sad case of a kid who was having problems, and I really hate to say this, but his parents failed him as well as the school.

There's no hill, and I'm not going to die. I just brought it up since it was relevant to the discussion.

  Fair enough, the post just seemed to lead the story a certain way with the headline, and there seemed to be quite a bit more to it.   I guess I can not blame them for the headline since their competition is all to happy to use headlines that are much more misleading, and given the same portion of the population that is always talking about anti-bullying seems pretty enthusiastic about vaccinations and how dumb people must be to not get them I see the tie in.   I feel bad for the kid.  Parents failed him, school failed him, and it seems the kids around him failed him. 
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on April 28, 2022, 04:25:11 PM
  It was not the definition used to promote vaccines in the public sphere.  I am not attacking you, saying you would not tell your personal doctor your personal medical history sounds like bullshit to every reasonable person.  You explained how it was a true story, and I think it is weird as hell to not share personal medical history with your personal doctor (the person who has, keeps, and updates your medical records), but hey, maybe I am the odd man out and everyone does that.  If this sort of thing puts me as a worthless human being, I feel a little sorry for you.
And again, more unwanted personal judgments. Fuck you, you waste of skin. People like you are the reason why we need an absolute ban, under all circumstances, any possibility of a vaccine passport. Because it will always be weaponized.

  I bet you hide your income and previous tax returns from your accountant as well.   Did you hit your head?  It will be ok to tell your doctor if you did. The connection you made here with me and vaccine passports seems you are confused.
I don't, you despicable walking blot on the human race. That's just you, projecting and insinuating like a slimeball masquerading as a human.

You're also thick as a brick and half as intelligent, which is apparently why you can't even put 1 and 1 together to get 2. Conversations about medical issues with a doctor aren't private. They're documented in medical record systems, which are supposedly shared with other providers who have a need to know, but in practice are widely accessible, data mined, and now there's a demand for parts of those records to be available to random merchants, and of course the government wants the it does. This isn't a failure of personal trust. This is how the state destroys the doctor-patient relationship. Resisting, in all the myriad ways, is the only way we'll stop this encroachment. And by "we", of course, I mean everyone but you.

  You realize how insane you sound, when the doctor, YOUR doctor, that YOU chose to go to asks a medical question and you sperg out on her?   I would expect the person who does not share medical information with HIS CHOSEN doctor that he CHOSE to go to, probably keeps pertinent information from his accountant who he also goes to (making both have harder jobs).  Of course I am the one as thick as a brick for not understanding why a person who chose to go to a doctor, presumably for their own medical well being, would make said doctor's job harder by hiding any medical information.    Given the rest of your rant, it appears NOT going to a doctor would serve your interests best.
I simply said no. Normal human beings accept that, and don't start accusing others of being crazy. And I also said you you were wrong about all the other accusations you made, which you're doubling down on here because you're a genuinely terrible person with no respect for boundaries, or other people. You're an empty soul with no value.

  I accept you said no.  I also accept it is odd to not answer a medical question from the person you trust with your medical care.  The rest is a joke, but I can see your ability to understand that might be directly related to the sperging out.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on April 28, 2022, 04:47:30 PM
  It was not the definition used to promote vaccines in the public sphere.  I am not attacking you, saying you would not tell your personal doctor your personal medical history sounds like bullshit to every reasonable person.  You explained how it was a true story, and I think it is weird as hell to not share personal medical history with your personal doctor (the person who has, keeps, and updates your medical records), but hey, maybe I am the odd man out and everyone does that.  If this sort of thing puts me as a worthless human being, I feel a little sorry for you.
And again, more unwanted personal judgments. Fuck you, you waste of skin. People like you are the reason why we need an absolute ban, under all circumstances, any possibility of a vaccine passport. Because it will always be weaponized.

  I bet you hide your income and previous tax returns from your accountant as well.   Did you hit your head?  It will be ok to tell your doctor if you did. The connection you made here with me and vaccine passports seems you are confused.
I don't, you despicable walking blot on the human race. That's just you, projecting and insinuating like a slimeball masquerading as a human.

You're also thick as a brick and half as intelligent, which is apparently why you can't even put 1 and 1 together to get 2. Conversations about medical issues with a doctor aren't private. They're documented in medical record systems, which are supposedly shared with other providers who have a need to know, but in practice are widely accessible, data mined, and now there's a demand for parts of those records to be available to random merchants, and of course the government wants the it does. This isn't a failure of personal trust. This is how the state destroys the doctor-patient relationship. Resisting, in all the myriad ways, is the only way we'll stop this encroachment. And by "we", of course, I mean everyone but you.

  You realize how insane you sound, when the doctor, YOUR doctor, that YOU chose to go to asks a medical question and you sperg out on her?   I would expect the person who does not share medical information with HIS CHOSEN doctor that he CHOSE to go to, probably keeps pertinent information from his accountant who he also goes to (making both have harder jobs).  Of course I am the one as thick as a brick for not understanding why a person who chose to go to a doctor, presumably for their own medical well being, would make said doctor's job harder by hiding any medical information.    Given the rest of your rant, it appears NOT going to a doctor would serve your interests best.
I simply said no. Normal human beings accept that, and don't start accusing others of being crazy. And I also said you you were wrong about all the other accusations you made, which you're doubling down on here because you're a genuinely terrible person with no respect for boundaries, or other people. You're an empty soul with no value.

  I accept you said no.  I also accept it is odd to not answer a medical question from the person you trust with your medical care.  The rest is a joke, but I can see your ability to understand that might be directly related to the sperging out.
Oh, you're pretending it's a joke now? I didn't know souless autists possessed a sense of humor.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: GeekyBugle on April 28, 2022, 04:52:05 PM
  It was not the definition used to promote vaccines in the public sphere.  I am not attacking you, saying you would not tell your personal doctor your personal medical history sounds like bullshit to every reasonable person.  You explained how it was a true story, and I think it is weird as hell to not share personal medical history with your personal doctor (the person who has, keeps, and updates your medical records), but hey, maybe I am the odd man out and everyone does that.  If this sort of thing puts me as a worthless human being, I feel a little sorry for you.
And again, more unwanted personal judgments. Fuck you, you waste of skin. People like you are the reason why we need an absolute ban, under all circumstances, any possibility of a vaccine passport. Because it will always be weaponized.

  I bet you hide your income and previous tax returns from your accountant as well.   Did you hit your head?  It will be ok to tell your doctor if you did. The connection you made here with me and vaccine passports seems you are confused.
I don't, you despicable walking blot on the human race. That's just you, projecting and insinuating like a slimeball masquerading as a human.

You're also thick as a brick and half as intelligent, which is apparently why you can't even put 1 and 1 together to get 2. Conversations about medical issues with a doctor aren't private. They're documented in medical record systems, which are supposedly shared with other providers who have a need to know, but in practice are widely accessible, data mined, and now there's a demand for parts of those records to be available to random merchants, and of course the government wants the it does. This isn't a failure of personal trust. This is how the state destroys the doctor-patient relationship. Resisting, in all the myriad ways, is the only way we'll stop this encroachment. And by "we", of course, I mean everyone but you.

  You realize how insane you sound, when the doctor, YOUR doctor, that YOU chose to go to asks a medical question and you sperg out on her?   I would expect the person who does not share medical information with HIS CHOSEN doctor that he CHOSE to go to, probably keeps pertinent information from his accountant who he also goes to (making both have harder jobs).  Of course I am the one as thick as a brick for not understanding why a person who chose to go to a doctor, presumably for their own medical well being, would make said doctor's job harder by hiding any medical information.    Given the rest of your rant, it appears NOT going to a doctor would serve your interests best.
I simply said no. Normal human beings accept that, and don't start accusing others of being crazy. And I also said you you were wrong about all the other accusations you made, which you're doubling down on here because you're a genuinely terrible person with no respect for boundaries, or other people. You're an empty soul with no value.

  I accept you said no.  I also accept it is odd to not answer a medical question from the person you trust with your medical care.  The rest is a joke, but I can see your ability to understand that might be directly related to the sperging out.
Oh, you're pretending it's a joke now? I didn't know souless autists possessed a sense of humor.

Fuck you too.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on April 28, 2022, 05:03:31 PM
  It was not the definition used to promote vaccines in the public sphere.  I am not attacking you, saying you would not tell your personal doctor your personal medical history sounds like bullshit to every reasonable person.  You explained how it was a true story, and I think it is weird as hell to not share personal medical history with your personal doctor (the person who has, keeps, and updates your medical records), but hey, maybe I am the odd man out and everyone does that.  If this sort of thing puts me as a worthless human being, I feel a little sorry for you.
And again, more unwanted personal judgments. Fuck you, you waste of skin. People like you are the reason why we need an absolute ban, under all circumstances, any possibility of a vaccine passport. Because it will always be weaponized.

  I bet you hide your income and previous tax returns from your accountant as well.   Did you hit your head?  It will be ok to tell your doctor if you did. The connection you made here with me and vaccine passports seems you are confused.
I don't, you despicable walking blot on the human race. That's just you, projecting and insinuating like a slimeball masquerading as a human.

You're also thick as a brick and half as intelligent, which is apparently why you can't even put 1 and 1 together to get 2. Conversations about medical issues with a doctor aren't private. They're documented in medical record systems, which are supposedly shared with other providers who have a need to know, but in practice are widely accessible, data mined, and now there's a demand for parts of those records to be available to random merchants, and of course the government wants the it does. This isn't a failure of personal trust. This is how the state destroys the doctor-patient relationship. Resisting, in all the myriad ways, is the only way we'll stop this encroachment. And by "we", of course, I mean everyone but you.

  You realize how insane you sound, when the doctor, YOUR doctor, that YOU chose to go to asks a medical question and you sperg out on her?   I would expect the person who does not share medical information with HIS CHOSEN doctor that he CHOSE to go to, probably keeps pertinent information from his accountant who he also goes to (making both have harder jobs).  Of course I am the one as thick as a brick for not understanding why a person who chose to go to a doctor, presumably for their own medical well being, would make said doctor's job harder by hiding any medical information.    Given the rest of your rant, it appears NOT going to a doctor would serve your interests best.
I simply said no. Normal human beings accept that, and don't start accusing others of being crazy. And I also said you you were wrong about all the other accusations you made, which you're doubling down on here because you're a genuinely terrible person with no respect for boundaries, or other people. You're an empty soul with no value.

  I accept you said no.  I also accept it is odd to not answer a medical question from the person you trust with your medical care.  The rest is a joke, but I can see your ability to understand that might be directly related to the sperging out.
Oh, you're pretending it's a joke now? I didn't know souless autists possessed a sense of humor.

  For a fellow tossing insults, you are really missing it here.  The line about your accountant was a joke, and seemed obvious as such, THAT was a joke.   So the many claims here are that I said your refusal to answer medical questions from YOUR doctor that YOU chose sounded like bullshit to me, to which you smote me with your righteous anger.  The line about accountant is an obvious joke, but you seem to be much more super serious right now than I am, so I should have held that one back.   So "all the other accusations" amounts to me joking with you about your accountant. 
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on April 28, 2022, 05:28:20 PM
  It was not the definition used to promote vaccines in the public sphere.  I am not attacking you, saying you would not tell your personal doctor your personal medical history sounds like bullshit to every reasonable person.  You explained how it was a true story, and I think it is weird as hell to not share personal medical history with your personal doctor (the person who has, keeps, and updates your medical records), but hey, maybe I am the odd man out and everyone does that.  If this sort of thing puts me as a worthless human being, I feel a little sorry for you.
And again, more unwanted personal judgments. Fuck you, you waste of skin. People like you are the reason why we need an absolute ban, under all circumstances, any possibility of a vaccine passport. Because it will always be weaponized.

  I bet you hide your income and previous tax returns from your accountant as well.   Did you hit your head?  It will be ok to tell your doctor if you did. The connection you made here with me and vaccine passports seems you are confused.
I don't, you despicable walking blot on the human race. That's just you, projecting and insinuating like a slimeball masquerading as a human.

You're also thick as a brick and half as intelligent, which is apparently why you can't even put 1 and 1 together to get 2. Conversations about medical issues with a doctor aren't private. They're documented in medical record systems, which are supposedly shared with other providers who have a need to know, but in practice are widely accessible, data mined, and now there's a demand for parts of those records to be available to random merchants, and of course the government wants the it does. This isn't a failure of personal trust. This is how the state destroys the doctor-patient relationship. Resisting, in all the myriad ways, is the only way we'll stop this encroachment. And by "we", of course, I mean everyone but you.

  You realize how insane you sound, when the doctor, YOUR doctor, that YOU chose to go to asks a medical question and you sperg out on her?   I would expect the person who does not share medical information with HIS CHOSEN doctor that he CHOSE to go to, probably keeps pertinent information from his accountant who he also goes to (making both have harder jobs).  Of course I am the one as thick as a brick for not understanding why a person who chose to go to a doctor, presumably for their own medical well being, would make said doctor's job harder by hiding any medical information.    Given the rest of your rant, it appears NOT going to a doctor would serve your interests best.
I simply said no. Normal human beings accept that, and don't start accusing others of being crazy. And I also said you you were wrong about all the other accusations you made, which you're doubling down on here because you're a genuinely terrible person with no respect for boundaries, or other people. You're an empty soul with no value.

  I accept you said no.  I also accept it is odd to not answer a medical question from the person you trust with your medical care.  The rest is a joke, but I can see your ability to understand that might be directly related to the sperging out.
Oh, you're pretending it's a joke now? I didn't know souless autists possessed a sense of humor.

Fuck you too.
I thought I was throwing that one back at oggshit, but it looks it was Shasarak who used that as an insult instead, back on page 97. All these crappy people get confusing.

In any case, not you, and I withdraw it anyway.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on April 28, 2022, 05:31:40 PM

  For a fellow tossing insults, you are really missing it here.  The line about your accountant was a joke, and seemed obvious as such, THAT was a joke.   So the many claims here are that I said your refusal to answer medical questions from YOUR doctor that YOU chose sounded like bullshit to me, to which you smote me with your righteous anger.  The line about accountant is an obvious joke, but you seem to be much more super serious right now than I am, so I should have held that one back.   So "all the other accusations" amounts to me joking with you about your accountant.
So you're still pretending that's a joke.

And no, that wasn't the only accusation or assumption, which you're continuing to repeat like a disgusting little fleck on a shoe that leaves a smelly track behind.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Shasarak on April 28, 2022, 05:40:14 PM
This is a train wreck. 
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on April 28, 2022, 06:20:01 PM

  For a fellow tossing insults, you are really missing it here.  The line about your accountant was a joke, and seemed obvious as such, THAT was a joke.   So the many claims here are that I said your refusal to answer medical questions from YOUR doctor that YOU chose sounded like bullshit to me, to which you smote me with your righteous anger.  The line about accountant is an obvious joke, but you seem to be much more super serious right now than I am, so I should have held that one back.   So "all the other accusations" amounts to me joking with you about your accountant.
So you're still pretending that's a joke.

And no, that wasn't the only accusation or assumption, which you're continuing to repeat like a disgusting little fleck on a shoe that leaves a smelly track behind.
 
  Got some time, so one more time, THE LINE ABOUT YOUR ACCOUNTANT WAS A JOKE.  Feel free to feel as butthurt as needed for me saying you line about refusing to talk your medical history with your chosen medical care provider sounded like bullshit.  Also feel as free to be butthurt as needed for me saying it sounds weird as hell to refuse to disclose said information to said medical provider.  So, no it was not all joking, but I am also not pretending we are talking about super serious stuff here.   Accusation?  Buddy you really need to take those meds.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: GeekyBugle on April 28, 2022, 06:34:05 PM
  It was not the definition used to promote vaccines in the public sphere.  I am not attacking you, saying you would not tell your personal doctor your personal medical history sounds like bullshit to every reasonable person.  You explained how it was a true story, and I think it is weird as hell to not share personal medical history with your personal doctor (the person who has, keeps, and updates your medical records), but hey, maybe I am the odd man out and everyone does that.  If this sort of thing puts me as a worthless human being, I feel a little sorry for you.
And again, more unwanted personal judgments. Fuck you, you waste of skin. People like you are the reason why we need an absolute ban, under all circumstances, any possibility of a vaccine passport. Because it will always be weaponized.

  I bet you hide your income and previous tax returns from your accountant as well.   Did you hit your head?  It will be ok to tell your doctor if you did. The connection you made here with me and vaccine passports seems you are confused.
I don't, you despicable walking blot on the human race. That's just you, projecting and insinuating like a slimeball masquerading as a human.

You're also thick as a brick and half as intelligent, which is apparently why you can't even put 1 and 1 together to get 2. Conversations about medical issues with a doctor aren't private. They're documented in medical record systems, which are supposedly shared with other providers who have a need to know, but in practice are widely accessible, data mined, and now there's a demand for parts of those records to be available to random merchants, and of course the government wants the it does. This isn't a failure of personal trust. This is how the state destroys the doctor-patient relationship. Resisting, in all the myriad ways, is the only way we'll stop this encroachment. And by "we", of course, I mean everyone but you.

  You realize how insane you sound, when the doctor, YOUR doctor, that YOU chose to go to asks a medical question and you sperg out on her?   I would expect the person who does not share medical information with HIS CHOSEN doctor that he CHOSE to go to, probably keeps pertinent information from his accountant who he also goes to (making both have harder jobs).  Of course I am the one as thick as a brick for not understanding why a person who chose to go to a doctor, presumably for their own medical well being, would make said doctor's job harder by hiding any medical information.    Given the rest of your rant, it appears NOT going to a doctor would serve your interests best.
I simply said no. Normal human beings accept that, and don't start accusing others of being crazy. And I also said you you were wrong about all the other accusations you made, which you're doubling down on here because you're a genuinely terrible person with no respect for boundaries, or other people. You're an empty soul with no value.

  I accept you said no.  I also accept it is odd to not answer a medical question from the person you trust with your medical care.  The rest is a joke, but I can see your ability to understand that might be directly related to the sperging out.
Oh, you're pretending it's a joke now? I didn't know souless autists possessed a sense of humor.

Fuck you too.
I thought I was throwing that one back at oggshit, but it looks it was Shasarak who used that as an insult instead, back on page 97. All these crappy people get confusing.

In any case, not you, and I withdraw it anyway.

Okay. I withdraw what I said about you too.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: DocJones on April 28, 2022, 06:47:14 PM
  I accept you said no.  I also accept it is odd to not answer a medical question from the person you trust with your medical care.  The rest is a joke, but I can see your ability to understand that might be directly related to the sperging out.
While nobody knows about his vaccination status, everyone at the hospital, his insurance company and all the Chinese hacker groups know about his erectile dysfunction.  ;D
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Shasarak on April 28, 2022, 07:49:26 PM
  It was not the definition used to promote vaccines in the public sphere.  I am not attacking you, saying you would not tell your personal doctor your personal medical history sounds like bullshit to every reasonable person.  You explained how it was a true story, and I think it is weird as hell to not share personal medical history with your personal doctor (the person who has, keeps, and updates your medical records), but hey, maybe I am the odd man out and everyone does that.  If this sort of thing puts me as a worthless human being, I feel a little sorry for you.
And again, more unwanted personal judgments. Fuck you, you waste of skin. People like you are the reason why we need an absolute ban, under all circumstances, any possibility of a vaccine passport. Because it will always be weaponized.

  I bet you hide your income and previous tax returns from your accountant as well.   Did you hit your head?  It will be ok to tell your doctor if you did. The connection you made here with me and vaccine passports seems you are confused.
I don't, you despicable walking blot on the human race. That's just you, projecting and insinuating like a slimeball masquerading as a human.

You're also thick as a brick and half as intelligent, which is apparently why you can't even put 1 and 1 together to get 2. Conversations about medical issues with a doctor aren't private. They're documented in medical record systems, which are supposedly shared with other providers who have a need to know, but in practice are widely accessible, data mined, and now there's a demand for parts of those records to be available to random merchants, and of course the government wants the it does. This isn't a failure of personal trust. This is how the state destroys the doctor-patient relationship. Resisting, in all the myriad ways, is the only way we'll stop this encroachment. And by "we", of course, I mean everyone but you.

  You realize how insane you sound, when the doctor, YOUR doctor, that YOU chose to go to asks a medical question and you sperg out on her?   I would expect the person who does not share medical information with HIS CHOSEN doctor that he CHOSE to go to, probably keeps pertinent information from his accountant who he also goes to (making both have harder jobs).  Of course I am the one as thick as a brick for not understanding why a person who chose to go to a doctor, presumably for their own medical well being, would make said doctor's job harder by hiding any medical information.    Given the rest of your rant, it appears NOT going to a doctor would serve your interests best.
I simply said no. Normal human beings accept that, and don't start accusing others of being crazy. And I also said you you were wrong about all the other accusations you made, which you're doubling down on here because you're a genuinely terrible person with no respect for boundaries, or other people. You're an empty soul with no value.

  I accept you said no.  I also accept it is odd to not answer a medical question from the person you trust with your medical care.  The rest is a joke, but I can see your ability to understand that might be directly related to the sperging out.
Oh, you're pretending it's a joke now? I didn't know souless autists possessed a sense of humor.

Fuck you too.
I thought I was throwing that one back at oggshit, but it looks it was Shasarak who used that as an insult instead, back on page 97. All these crappy people get confusing.

In any case, not you, and I withdraw it anyway.

Dont drag me into your train wreck.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: SHARK on April 28, 2022, 08:25:30 PM
  I accept you said no.  I also accept it is odd to not answer a medical question from the person you trust with your medical care.  The rest is a joke, but I can see your ability to understand that might be directly related to the sperging out.
While nobody knows about his vaccination status, everyone at the hospital, his insurance company and all the Chinese hacker groups know about his erectile dysfunction.  ;D

Greetings!

*Hilarious* Doc Jones!

That had me laughing over some coffee for sure!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: SHARK on April 28, 2022, 08:27:03 PM
  It was not the definition used to promote vaccines in the public sphere.  I am not attacking you, saying you would not tell your personal doctor your personal medical history sounds like bullshit to every reasonable person.  You explained how it was a true story, and I think it is weird as hell to not share personal medical history with your personal doctor (the person who has, keeps, and updates your medical records), but hey, maybe I am the odd man out and everyone does that.  If this sort of thing puts me as a worthless human being, I feel a little sorry for you.
And again, more unwanted personal judgments. Fuck you, you waste of skin. People like you are the reason why we need an absolute ban, under all circumstances, any possibility of a vaccine passport. Because it will always be weaponized.

  I bet you hide your income and previous tax returns from your accountant as well.   Did you hit your head?  It will be ok to tell your doctor if you did. The connection you made here with me and vaccine passports seems you are confused.
I don't, you despicable walking blot on the human race. That's just you, projecting and insinuating like a slimeball masquerading as a human.

You're also thick as a brick and half as intelligent, which is apparently why you can't even put 1 and 1 together to get 2. Conversations about medical issues with a doctor aren't private. They're documented in medical record systems, which are supposedly shared with other providers who have a need to know, but in practice are widely accessible, data mined, and now there's a demand for parts of those records to be available to random merchants, and of course the government wants the it does. This isn't a failure of personal trust. This is how the state destroys the doctor-patient relationship. Resisting, in all the myriad ways, is the only way we'll stop this encroachment. And by "we", of course, I mean everyone but you.

  You realize how insane you sound, when the doctor, YOUR doctor, that YOU chose to go to asks a medical question and you sperg out on her?   I would expect the person who does not share medical information with HIS CHOSEN doctor that he CHOSE to go to, probably keeps pertinent information from his accountant who he also goes to (making both have harder jobs).  Of course I am the one as thick as a brick for not understanding why a person who chose to go to a doctor, presumably for their own medical well being, would make said doctor's job harder by hiding any medical information.    Given the rest of your rant, it appears NOT going to a doctor would serve your interests best.
I simply said no. Normal human beings accept that, and don't start accusing others of being crazy. And I also said you you were wrong about all the other accusations you made, which you're doubling down on here because you're a genuinely terrible person with no respect for boundaries, or other people. You're an empty soul with no value.

  I accept you said no.  I also accept it is odd to not answer a medical question from the person you trust with your medical care.  The rest is a joke, but I can see your ability to understand that might be directly related to the sperging out.
Oh, you're pretending it's a joke now? I didn't know souless autists possessed a sense of humor.

Fuck you too.
I thought I was throwing that one back at oggshit, but it looks it was Shasarak who used that as an insult instead, back on page 97. All these crappy people get confusing.

In any case, not you, and I withdraw it anyway.

Dont drag me into your train wreck.

Greetings!

Hey, Shasarak! Weird how this thread became such a trainwreck! *Laughing*

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on April 28, 2022, 10:50:18 PM

  For a fellow tossing insults, you are really missing it here.  The line about your accountant was a joke, and seemed obvious as such, THAT was a joke.   So the many claims here are that I said your refusal to answer medical questions from YOUR doctor that YOU chose sounded like bullshit to me, to which you smote me with your righteous anger.  The line about accountant is an obvious joke, but you seem to be much more super serious right now than I am, so I should have held that one back.   So "all the other accusations" amounts to me joking with you about your accountant.
So you're still pretending that's a joke.

And no, that wasn't the only accusation or assumption, which you're continuing to repeat like a disgusting little fleck on a shoe that leaves a smelly track behind.
 
  Got some time, so one more time, THE LINE ABOUT YOUR ACCOUNTANT WAS A JOKE.  Feel free to feel as butthurt as needed for me saying you line about refusing to talk your medical history with your chosen medical care provider sounded like bullshit.  Also feel as free to be butthurt as needed for me saying it sounds weird as hell to refuse to disclose said information to said medical provider.  So, no it was not all joking, but I am also not pretending we are talking about super serious stuff here.   Accusation?  Buddy you really need to take those meds.
You were the one who attacked me, not the other way around, and you've attacked me in almost every line of every post ever since. And now you're sperging because I accused you of not making a joke, when you've called me a liar about multiple things? You're a precious little princess, aren't you?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on April 28, 2022, 10:50:58 PM

Dont drag me into your train wreck.
You voluntarily participated.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on April 28, 2022, 11:09:25 PM
  I accept you said no.  I also accept it is odd to not answer a medical question from the person you trust with your medical care.  The rest is a joke, but I can see your ability to understand that might be directly related to the sperging out.
While nobody knows about his vaccination status, everyone at the hospital, his insurance company and all the Chinese hacker groups know about his erectile dysfunction.  ;D
Are you in kindergarten?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Shasarak on April 29, 2022, 12:33:56 AM

Dont drag me into your train wreck.
You voluntarily participated.

There you go being Pautistic again.

Wonder who I am going to make you fight with next.   ::)
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on April 29, 2022, 04:51:25 AM

Dont drag me into your train wreck.
You voluntarily participated.

There you go being Pautistic again.

Wonder who I am going to make you fight with next.   ::)
You should go back to posting in black text. You were occasionally funny.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on April 29, 2022, 07:23:13 AM

  For a fellow tossing insults, you are really missing it here.  The line about your accountant was a joke, and seemed obvious as such, THAT was a joke.   So the many claims here are that I said your refusal to answer medical questions from YOUR doctor that YOU chose sounded like bullshit to me, to which you smote me with your righteous anger.  The line about accountant is an obvious joke, but you seem to be much more super serious right now than I am, so I should have held that one back.   So "all the other accusations" amounts to me joking with you about your accountant.
So you're still pretending that's a joke.

And no, that wasn't the only accusation or assumption, which you're continuing to repeat like a disgusting little fleck on a shoe that leaves a smelly track behind.
 
  Got some time, so one more time, THE LINE ABOUT YOUR ACCOUNTANT WAS A JOKE.  Feel free to feel as butthurt as needed for me saying you line about refusing to talk your medical history with your chosen medical care provider sounded like bullshit.  Also feel as free to be butthurt as needed for me saying it sounds weird as hell to refuse to disclose said information to said medical provider.  So, no it was not all joking, but I am also not pretending we are talking about super serious stuff here.   Accusation?  Buddy you really need to take those meds.
You were the one who attacked me, not the other way around, and you've attacked me in almost every line of every post ever since. And now you're sperging because I accused you of not making a joke, when you've called me a liar about multiple things? You're a precious little princess, aren't you?

  No, I just said your line about not telling your chosen doctor your medical info sounded like bullshit (and I said sounded, if I wanted to say you outright lied, I would) you explained, and your obvious issues demonstrated here while explaining lead me to believe you are in fact the sort to withhold medical information from your medical care provider.  Then I started joking on you, because that does sound weird to me.  I just want you to be properly butthurt for the right reasons.  It seems you imagine enough problems I would not want you to get any extras.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on April 29, 2022, 12:42:14 PM
I genuinely hope all you morons who were dumb enough to go along with this mass experimentation of gene therapy live long enough to see what a mistake you made. Because if the truth should finally come out, you'll have been deemed to have volunteered to take part. Big Pharma will get off scot-free and you'll be left to deal with the cancers and other issues caused by that never-ending production of spike proteins in your body.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Battlemaster on April 29, 2022, 01:15:31 PM
The right's response to protest or disobedience is always violent oppression, prison or execution, often summary.

So now they're protesting and refusing to obey?

Crush them.  If they want to fight go dalek on them. Hopefully they'll all flee to the deep red old confederate states and move to secede. This time re let them go.

I'm sick of them.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: GeekyBugle on April 29, 2022, 01:50:47 PM
The right's response to protest or disobedience is always violent oppression, prison or execution, often summary.

So now they're protesting and refusing to obey?

Crush them.  If they want to fight go dalek on them. Hopefully they'll all flee to the deep red old confederate states and move to secede. This time re let them go.

I'm sick of them.

Yep, that's why Antifart and Burn Loot Murder were killed the moment they stasrted protesting... No wait, it was when they started rioting... No, wait, it was when they started destroying private property and raping and murdering... No, wait, it wasn't until 3 criminals tried to murder one innocent boy that 2 of them got killed.

Chupame la verga pendejo.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on April 29, 2022, 02:06:56 PM
The right's response to protest or disobedience is always violent oppression, prison or execution, often summary.

So now they're protesting and refusing to obey?

Crush them.  If they want to fight go dalek on them. Hopefully they'll all flee to the deep red old confederate states and move to secede. This time re let them go.

I'm sick of them.

   Who's doing the crushing?  You?  I think if you get what you want, you are going to realize it goes badly for you and people like you.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ghostmaker on April 29, 2022, 02:36:47 PM
The right's response to protest or disobedience is always violent oppression, prison or execution, often summary.

So now they're protesting and refusing to obey?

Crush them.  If they want to fight go dalek on them. Hopefully they'll all flee to the deep red old confederate states and move to secede. This time re let them go.

I'm sick of them.
Say when, pussy.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: SHARK on April 29, 2022, 02:55:28 PM
The right's response to protest or disobedience is always violent oppression, prison or execution, often summary.

So now they're protesting and refusing to obey?

Crush them.  If they want to fight go dalek on them. Hopefully they'll all flee to the deep red old confederate states and move to secede. This time re let them go.

I'm sick of them.
Say when, pussy.

Greetings!

*Laughing* So fucking true, man!

I've seen many videos where in Portland, Oregon, other areas a well, when ANTIFA and other Leftist Commie scum want to cosplay being tough...nearby patriots fucking plough them with epic ass-beatings and the pussy commies run sobbing for their fucking mommy.

Fucking hilarious!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ghostmaker on April 29, 2022, 03:42:33 PM
The right's response to protest or disobedience is always violent oppression, prison or execution, often summary.

So now they're protesting and refusing to obey?

Crush them.  If they want to fight go dalek on them. Hopefully they'll all flee to the deep red old confederate states and move to secede. This time re let them go.

I'm sick of them.
Say when, pussy.

Greetings!

*Laughing* So fucking true, man!

I've seen many videos where in Portland, Oregon, other areas a well, when ANTIFA and other Leftist Commie scum want to cosplay being tough...nearby patriots fucking plough them with epic ass-beatings and the pussy commies run sobbing for their fucking mommy.

Fucking hilarious!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
The reason they feel confident to play these games is that usually in hard blue enclaves, they know they won't face legal sanction (by which I mean arrest and prosecution) for misbehaving.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on April 29, 2022, 04:08:29 PM
The right's response to protest or disobedience is always violent oppression, prison or execution, often summary.

So now they're protesting and refusing to obey?

Crush them.  If they want to fight go dalek on them. Hopefully they'll all flee to the deep red old confederate states and move to secede. This time re let them go.

I'm sick of them.
Say when, pussy.

Greetings!

*Laughing* So fucking true, man!

I've seen many videos where in Portland, Oregon, other areas a well, when ANTIFA and other Leftist Commie scum want to cosplay being tough...nearby patriots fucking plough them with epic ass-beatings and the pussy commies run sobbing for their fucking mommy.

Fucking hilarious!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
The reason they feel confident to play these games is that usually in hard blue enclaves, they know they won't face legal sanction (by which I mean arrest and prosecution) for misbehaving.
Come to Florida and do dumb shit, and you're likely to get shot regardless of your politics. Unfortunately, come to Florida and just have the misfortune to be anywhere near where dumb shit is happening, and you're likely to get shot. Then remember that, in Florida, dumb shit happens with alarming frequency...

It's been over a week since I last had to treat a GSW. Maybe tomorrow...
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Shasarak on April 29, 2022, 05:21:26 PM
The right's response to protest or disobedience is always violent oppression, prison or execution, often summary.

So now they're protesting and refusing to obey?

Crush them.  If they want to fight go dalek on them. Hopefully they'll all flee to the deep red old confederate states and move to secede. This time re let them go.

I'm sick of them.

Maybe you can send some operatives like the CIA or MI6 do.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: GeekyBugle on April 29, 2022, 05:53:19 PM
The right's response to protest or disobedience is always violent oppression, prison or execution, often summary.

So now they're protesting and refusing to obey?

Crush them.  If they want to fight go dalek on them. Hopefully they'll all flee to the deep red old confederate states and move to secede. This time re let them go.

I'm sick of them.

Maybe you can send some operatives like the CIA or MI6 do.

Isn't it illegal to own someone that hard?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on April 30, 2022, 05:24:33 PM
  No, I just said your line about not telling your chosen doctor your medical info sounded like bullshit (and I said sounded, if I wanted to say you outright lied, I would) you explained, and your obvious issues demonstrated here while explaining lead me to believe you are in fact the sort to withhold medical information from your medical care provider.  Then I started joking on you, because that does sound weird to me.  I just want you to be properly butthurt for the right reasons.  It seems you imagine enough problems I would not want you to get any extras.
And I've said repeatedly I have no fucking interest in your opinion about my personal decisions, or my doctor. I provided a tiny personal detail, with great reluctance, because you specifically asked, and I assumed you were acting in good faith. And you've been attacking me non-stop based on that, even though I've made it very clear in every post I do not welcome your opinion on the subject.

That makes you a horrible human being. You're slime. You're filth. Your mother should be embarrassed she gave birth to a piece of excrement instead of a child.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on April 30, 2022, 05:32:12 PM
  No, I just said your line about not telling your chosen doctor your medical info sounded like bullshit (and I said sounded, if I wanted to say you outright lied, I would) you explained, and your obvious issues demonstrated here while explaining lead me to believe you are in fact the sort to withhold medical information from your medical care provider.  Then I started joking on you, because that does sound weird to me.  I just want you to be properly butthurt for the right reasons.  It seems you imagine enough problems I would not want you to get any extras.
And I've said repeatedly I have no fucking interest in your opinion about my personal decisions, or my doctor. I provided a tiny personal detail, with great reluctance, because you specifically asked, and I assumed you were acting in good faith. And you've been attacking me non-stop based on that, even though I've made it very clear in every post I do not welcome your opinion on the subject.

That makes you a horrible human being. You're slime. You're a filth. You're an awful excuse, and your mother should be embarrassed she gave birth to piece of excrement instead of a child.

    I did act in good faith, and I acted in total honesty when I said it was weird as hell.  You absolutely do care about the opinion, because you go on and on about it. As to the mother, since she died last year (and we had a complete clusterfuck with being able to see her in her last days after a medical emergency thanks to covid restrictions) I am guessing she will not be embarrassed.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on April 30, 2022, 05:43:47 PM
  No, I just said your line about not telling your chosen doctor your medical info sounded like bullshit (and I said sounded, if I wanted to say you outright lied, I would) you explained, and your obvious issues demonstrated here while explaining lead me to believe you are in fact the sort to withhold medical information from your medical care provider.  Then I started joking on you, because that does sound weird to me.  I just want you to be properly butthurt for the right reasons.  It seems you imagine enough problems I would not want you to get any extras.
And I've said repeatedly I have no fucking interest in your opinion about my personal decisions, or my doctor. I provided a tiny personal detail, with great reluctance, because you specifically asked, and I assumed you were acting in good faith. And you've been attacking me non-stop based on that, even though I've made it very clear in every post I do not welcome your opinion on the subject.

That makes you a horrible human being. You're slime. You're a filth. You're an awful excuse, and your mother should be embarrassed she gave birth to piece of excrement instead of a child.

    I did act in good faith, and I acted in total honesty when I said it was weird as hell.  You absolutely do care about the opinion, because you go on and on about it. As to the mother, since she died last year (and we had a complete clusterfuck with being able to see her in her last days after a medical emergency thanks to covid restrictions) I am guessing she will not be embarrassed.
Fucktard, I'm not the one going on about it. You've attacked me on it in every single post up until this one.

You're a maggot.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on April 30, 2022, 05:48:00 PM
  No, I just said your line about not telling your chosen doctor your medical info sounded like bullshit (and I said sounded, if I wanted to say you outright lied, I would) you explained, and your obvious issues demonstrated here while explaining lead me to believe you are in fact the sort to withhold medical information from your medical care provider.  Then I started joking on you, because that does sound weird to me.  I just want you to be properly butthurt for the right reasons.  It seems you imagine enough problems I would not want you to get any extras.
And I've said repeatedly I have no fucking interest in your opinion about my personal decisions, or my doctor. I provided a tiny personal detail, with great reluctance, because you specifically asked, and I assumed you were acting in good faith. And you've been attacking me non-stop based on that, even though I've made it very clear in every post I do not welcome your opinion on the subject.

That makes you a horrible human being. You're slime. You're a filth. You're an awful excuse, and your mother should be embarrassed she gave birth to piece of excrement instead of a child.

    I did act in good faith, and I acted in total honesty when I said it was weird as hell.  You absolutely do care about the opinion, because you go on and on about it. As to the mother, since she died last year (and we had a complete clusterfuck with being able to see her in her last days after a medical emergency thanks to covid restrictions) I am guessing she will not be embarrassed.
Fucktard, I'm not the one going on about it. You've attacked me on it in every single post up until this one.

You're a maggot.

  I guess I would need an definition of attacked.  I did not say a single thing that I would not have said to a friend of mine in face to face conversation this entire time.  Now, I am used to talking to people face to face who like to take a poke or two at one another, so I would need a bit of clarity on where the attacks start given I am a bit lost there.  I can not say you have acted in the same manner this whole time. 
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on April 30, 2022, 05:56:35 PM
  No, I just said your line about not telling your chosen doctor your medical info sounded like bullshit (and I said sounded, if I wanted to say you outright lied, I would) you explained, and your obvious issues demonstrated here while explaining lead me to believe you are in fact the sort to withhold medical information from your medical care provider.  Then I started joking on you, because that does sound weird to me.  I just want you to be properly butthurt for the right reasons.  It seems you imagine enough problems I would not want you to get any extras.
And I've said repeatedly I have no fucking interest in your opinion about my personal decisions, or my doctor. I provided a tiny personal detail, with great reluctance, because you specifically asked, and I assumed you were acting in good faith. And you've been attacking me non-stop based on that, even though I've made it very clear in every post I do not welcome your opinion on the subject.

That makes you a horrible human being. You're slime. You're a filth. You're an awful excuse, and your mother should be embarrassed she gave birth to piece of excrement instead of a child.

    I did act in good faith, and I acted in total honesty when I said it was weird as hell.  You absolutely do care about the opinion, because you go on and on about it. As to the mother, since she died last year (and we had a complete clusterfuck with being able to see her in her last days after a medical emergency thanks to covid restrictions) I am guessing she will not be embarrassed.
Fucktard, I'm not the one going on about it. You've attacked me on it in every single post up until this one.

You're a maggot.

  I guess I would need an definition of attacked.  I did not say a single thing that I would not have said to a friend of mine in face to face conversation this entire time.  Now, I am used to talking to people face to face who like to take a poke or two at one another, so I would need a bit of clarity on where the attacks start given I am a bit lost there.  I can not say you have acted in the same manner this whole time.
First it was a joke, now it didn't happen?

Pepperidge Farm remembers, taint of the human race.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on April 30, 2022, 05:58:45 PM
  No, I just said your line about not telling your chosen doctor your medical info sounded like bullshit (and I said sounded, if I wanted to say you outright lied, I would) you explained, and your obvious issues demonstrated here while explaining lead me to believe you are in fact the sort to withhold medical information from your medical care provider.  Then I started joking on you, because that does sound weird to me.  I just want you to be properly butthurt for the right reasons.  It seems you imagine enough problems I would not want you to get any extras.
And I've said repeatedly I have no fucking interest in your opinion about my personal decisions, or my doctor. I provided a tiny personal detail, with great reluctance, because you specifically asked, and I assumed you were acting in good faith. And you've been attacking me non-stop based on that, even though I've made it very clear in every post I do not welcome your opinion on the subject.

That makes you a horrible human being. You're slime. You're a filth. You're an awful excuse, and your mother should be embarrassed she gave birth to piece of excrement instead of a child.

    I did act in good faith, and I acted in total honesty when I said it was weird as hell.  You absolutely do care about the opinion, because you go on and on about it. As to the mother, since she died last year (and we had a complete clusterfuck with being able to see her in her last days after a medical emergency thanks to covid restrictions) I am guessing she will not be embarrassed.
Fucktard, I'm not the one going on about it. You've attacked me on it in every single post up until this one.

You're a maggot.

  I guess I would need an definition of attacked.  I did not say a single thing that I would not have said to a friend of mine in face to face conversation this entire time.  Now, I am used to talking to people face to face who like to take a poke or two at one another, so I would need a bit of clarity on where the attacks start given I am a bit lost there.  I can not say you have acted in the same manner this whole time.
First it was a joke, now it didn't happen?

Pepperidge Farm remembers, taint of the human race.

  Everyone can read back, including you.  If anything I did qualifies as an attack, so be it.  I am giving you my perspective, which is all I can do.  You seem more concerned with calling me names, and invoking my dead mother into an online conversation.  So it is what it is.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on April 30, 2022, 06:03:54 PM
 oops
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on April 30, 2022, 08:05:52 PM
oops
That's what your mother said when you were born.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: DocJones on April 30, 2022, 09:09:41 PM
While nobody knows about his vaccination status, everyone at the hospital, his insurance company and all the Chinese hacker groups know about his erectile dysfunction.  ;D
Are you in kindergarten?
(https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/1670238576734922240/A294E035F5A577BD12261798FC54F7E21FFAC5AB/?imw=300&&ima=fit&impolicy=Letterbox&imcolor=%23000000&letterbox=false)
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: GeekyBugle on May 05, 2022, 09:03:46 PM
Remember when this was a conspiracy theory?

From the known Q-Anon site the AP:

"U.S. regulators strictly limited who can receive Johnson & Johnson’s COVID-19 vaccine due to a rare but serious risk of blood clots.

The FDA said the shot should only be given to adults who cannot receive a different vaccine or specifically request J&J’s."

https://archive.is/rx7k7 (https://archive.is/rx7k7)
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Spinachcat on May 05, 2022, 09:15:30 PM
The clot shot is two "current things" ago!

C'mon kids, nobody even remembers CoronaChan anymore! :)
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: GeekyBugle on May 05, 2022, 09:30:32 PM
The clot shot is two "current things" ago!

C'mon kids, nobody even remembers CoronaChan anymore! :)

My "Conspiracy Theory" is that the SCOTUS leak was planned to distract from all the jab related news.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Spinachcat on May 05, 2022, 09:40:55 PM
The vax was weirdly dropped like a hot potato.

I don't hear any talk anymore about vax mandates or vax passports, except that retard Fauci the Clown wants his faithful Covidiots to get their 4th booster, but like the mask freaks, the vax freaks are devoted to the Cult of Not-Science.

Now we all wait to see the medium term effects of the biggest human medical experiment in history, and then the long term over the next decade.

But it's cute watching the MSM create increasingly bizarre rationalizations for why so many people are dropping dead from blood clots and heart issues.


Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: GeekyBugle on May 05, 2022, 11:14:42 PM
The vax was weirdly dropped like a hot potato.

I don't hear any talk anymore about vax mandates or vax passports, except that retard Fauci the Clown wants his faithful Covidiots to get their 4th booster, but like the mask freaks, the vax freaks are devoted to the Cult of Not-Science.

Now we all wait to see the medium term effects of the biggest human medical experiment in history, and then the long term over the next decade.

But it's cute watching the MSM create increasingly bizarre rationalizations for why so many people are dropping dead from blood clots and heart issues.

IF I survive long enough I will rub Grimm Jim's nose in it.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Shasarak on May 05, 2022, 11:56:48 PM
The vax was weirdly dropped like a hot potato.

I don't hear any talk anymore about vax mandates or vax passports, except that retard Fauci the Clown wants his faithful Covidiots to get their 4th booster, but like the mask freaks, the vax freaks are devoted to the Cult of Not-Science.

Now we all wait to see the medium term effects of the biggest human medical experiment in history, and then the long term over the next decade.

But it's cute watching the MSM create increasingly bizarre rationalizations for why so many people are dropping dead from blood clots and heart issues.

IF I survive long enough I will rub Grimm Jim's nose in it.

If he has not already died from blood clots.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: GeekyBugle on May 06, 2022, 12:31:59 AM
The vax was weirdly dropped like a hot potato.

I don't hear any talk anymore about vax mandates or vax passports, except that retard Fauci the Clown wants his faithful Covidiots to get their 4th booster, but like the mask freaks, the vax freaks are devoted to the Cult of Not-Science.

Now we all wait to see the medium term effects of the biggest human medical experiment in history, and then the long term over the next decade.

But it's cute watching the MSM create increasingly bizarre rationalizations for why so many people are dropping dead from blood clots and heart issues.

IF I survive long enough I will rub Grimm Jim's nose in it.

If he has not already died from blood clots.

That's the thing. He got the booster too I think, I didn't. But I got the Pfizer russian roulette.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: PSIandCO on May 07, 2022, 12:49:35 AM
I am ANTI-Vaxx.
I don't have a biochemistry degree.
As someone who knows chemistry though...
You should ask questions when the NIH puts out an article celebrating the addition of ARSENIC to *ALL* vaccines.
"You can eat rat poison, just avoid the 2% part that is poison"...
The article was removed shortly after it was posted, it was filled with glee filled comments about global depopulation (To put it lightly).
I found it when I was researching Higher learning (colleges, universities, and Professors) conducting Psionics experiments.
There are a surprising large number. Go look for yourself.
Anywho, I was searching for Peer review of Daryl Bem's precognition study and institutions that should do replication experiments...
I didn't find any. The only responses were disgusting ridicule, mockery, and false accusations. Especially by the NIH.

Am I ever getting any shots ever again? oh hell no. Not me, not anyone I know.
I find it so fascinating: Mercury in vaccines... followed by news articles claiming; "Mercury poisoning from eating too much fish!"
Now? Arsenic in Vaccines... Followed by news articles claiming; "Arsenic poisoning from eating too much rice!"

...Are you shiting me? rice has been a food staple for 60% of the world for more than 6 thousand years! I am supposed to believe the news that now, and only now, rice is bad? these people are evil in ways I can't even comprehend.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Effete on May 07, 2022, 08:01:13 AM
Arsenic is found naturally all over the world, in trace amounts everywhere. You probably have some in your backyard. It's typically inert, though, since it bonds readily to carbon compounds. Arsenic poisoning has been known and catalogued for centuries, typically from drinking tainted water supplies (the water would dissolve the bonded molecule leaving only the arsenic, which is non-soluable). It CAN get on rice by using tainted water to rinse the grains. Whether that's actually the case here needs to be looked into. Because if arsenic IS getting on the rice in amounts high enough to cause poisoning, then we need to trace where that rice came from because the workers would certainly have arsenic poisoning. If they don't, then you'll know it's bullshit.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: dkabq on May 07, 2022, 09:04:56 AM
Arsenic is found naturally all over the world, in trace amounts everywhere. You probably have some in your backyard. It's typically inert, though, since it bonds readily to carbon compounds. Arsenic poisoning has been known and catalogued for centuries, typically from drinking tainted water supplies (the water would dissolve the bonded molecule leaving only the arsenic, which is non-soluable). It CAN get on rice by using tainted water to rinse the grains. Whether that's actually the case here needs to be looked into. Because if arsenic IS getting on the rice in amounts high enough to cause poisoning, then we need to trace where that rice came from because the workers would certainly have arsenic poisoning. If they don't, then you'll know it's bullshit.

Where I live the ground water can have arsenic concentrations that are above the EPA regulatory limit. If the local well that supplies your area is above the limit, they blend in sufficient water from other below-limit locations to get what is supplied to you below the limit.

As for rice, this was top of the list when I consulted das googles:
https://www.allrecipes.com/article/arsenic-in-rice/

"Arsenic can be found in minuscule amounts in most foods, but the crop with the highest amount of inorganic arsenic is rice. This is the result of a multitude of factors, including the fact that rice paddy fields may accumulate arsenic in their soil, rice easily absorbs arsenic from the water and soil it's grown in, and, in some parts of the world, the irrigation water is contaminated with high levels of arsenic."

Further down was this
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7745115/

Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: GeekyBugle on May 07, 2022, 01:33:27 PM
Arsenic is found naturally all over the world, in trace amounts everywhere. You probably have some in your backyard. It's typically inert, though, since it bonds readily to carbon compounds. Arsenic poisoning has been known and catalogued for centuries, typically from drinking tainted water supplies (the water would dissolve the bonded molecule leaving only the arsenic, which is non-soluable). It CAN get on rice by using tainted water to rinse the grains. Whether that's actually the case here needs to be looked into. Because if arsenic IS getting on the rice in amounts high enough to cause poisoning, then we need to trace where that rice came from because the workers would certainly have arsenic poisoning. If they don't, then you'll know it's bullshit.

Apple seeds naturally contain arsenic, gues our anti-vaxer upstream will never eat an apple again because the risk og bitting one or cutting one and contaminating the meat is real...

Contrary to vaccines (If it's even true they have it) that you take once, arsenic in the water/food IS dangerous because arsenic accumulates in your body.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ghostmaker on May 07, 2022, 04:42:09 PM
This is the sodium chloride problem.

Sodium will literally explode in water. Chlorine is one of the most vicious elemental gases known to man.

Together, they're... table salt.

Chemistry is weird like that. If you're going argue against the vax, don't try and pull out chemistry unless you know what you're talking about.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on May 08, 2022, 12:25:47 AM
The clot shot is two "current things" ago!

C'mon kids, nobody even remembers CoronaChan anymore! :)

My "Conspiracy Theory" is that the SCOTUS leak was planned to distract from all the jab related news.

But few give a damn about jap related news. It wasn't even making anything close to front page news to begin with, before the SCOTUS leak.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on May 08, 2022, 12:28:57 AM

I don't hear any talk anymore about vax mandates or vax passports

Eh I am going to Canada in the next few months and they require vax proof (which deterred some people I know from going as well). I returned from the UK recently and funny enough they didn't care about vax status but I had to get tested and show proof of that to fly to the U.S..
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: jeff37923 on May 08, 2022, 12:34:23 AM
The clot shot is two "current things" ago!

C'mon kids, nobody even remembers CoronaChan anymore! :)

My "Conspiracy Theory" is that the SCOTUS leak was planned to distract from all the jab related news.

But few give a damn about jap related news. It wasn't even making anything close to front page news to begin with, before the SCOTUS leak.

Nice ethnic slur you got there.....
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: jeff37923 on May 08, 2022, 12:35:21 AM

I don't hear any talk anymore about vax mandates or vax passports

Eh I am going to Canada in the next few months and they require vax proof (which deterred some people I know from going as well). I returned from the UK recently and funny enough they didn't care about vax status but I had to get tested and show proof of that to fly to the U.S..

Going on another vacation I see. Gonna get Trudeau's autograph in your "Favorite Fascists" book?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on May 08, 2022, 01:27:56 AM
The clot shot is two "current things" ago!

C'mon kids, nobody even remembers CoronaChan anymore! :)

My "Conspiracy Theory" is that the SCOTUS leak was planned to distract from all the jab related news.

LOL just an ordinary typo. I make a lot of them. But fair to point it out.

But few give a damn about jap related news. It wasn't even making anything close to front page news to begin with, before the SCOTUS leak.

Nice ethnic slur you got there.....
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on May 08, 2022, 01:30:16 AM

I don't hear any talk anymore about vax mandates or vax passports

Eh I am going to Canada in the next few months and they require vax proof (which deterred some people I know from going as well). I returned from the UK recently and funny enough they didn't care about vax status but I had to get tested and show proof of that to fly to the U.S..

Going on another vacation I see. Gonna get Trudeau's autograph in your "Favorite Fascists" book?

Again, not a vacation. Though again I will try to see something of the city if we can find the time.

You do seem very concerned with my personal life though. Would you like to friend me on social media or something?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: jeff37923 on May 08, 2022, 06:09:26 AM

I don't hear any talk anymore about vax mandates or vax passports

Eh I am going to Canada in the next few months and they require vax proof (which deterred some people I know from going as well). I returned from the UK recently and funny enough they didn't care about vax status but I had to get tested and show proof of that to fly to the U.S..

Going on another vacation I see. Gonna get Trudeau's autograph in your "Favorite Fascists" book?

Again, not a vacation. Though again I will try to see something of the city if we can find the time.

You do seem very concerned with my personal life though. Would you like to friend me on social media or something?

And let you harass my SO? Fuck that.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: jhkim on May 08, 2022, 06:54:54 AM
Arsenic is found naturally all over the world, in trace amounts everywhere. You probably have some in your backyard. It's typically inert, though, since it bonds readily to carbon compounds. Arsenic poisoning has been known and catalogued for centuries, typically from drinking tainted water supplies (the water would dissolve the bonded molecule leaving only the arsenic, which is non-soluable). It CAN get on rice by using tainted water to rinse the grains. Whether that's actually the case here needs to be looked into. Because if arsenic IS getting on the rice in amounts high enough to cause poisoning, then we need to trace where that rice came from because the workers would certainly have arsenic poisoning. If they don't, then you'll know it's bullshit.

Apple seeds naturally contain arsenic, gues our anti-vaxer upstream will never eat an apple again because the risk og bitting one or cutting one and contaminating the meat is real...

Contrary to vaccines (If it's even true they have it) that you take once, arsenic in the water/food IS dangerous because arsenic accumulates in your body.

I agree with the general point that arsenic accumulates in the body, so like lead and mercury, it can be dangerous in even in low doses. However, the point about apple seeds is mixing up arsenic and cyanide. Apple seeds naturally contain amygdalin which is processed by the body into cyanide. However, cyanide does not accumulate in the body and is not dangerous in low doses. For example, the heart medicine sodium nitroprusside intentionally produces cyanide in the body.

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/318706#are-they-dangerous

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/962181/
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on May 10, 2022, 09:53:16 AM
"Fourth covid jab gives higher antibody levels than those seen after third, study suggests" - reported by Reuters (sponsored by Pfizer) today.

Unbelievable that they're still pushing this shit. And millions of chumps will dutifully line up to fuck up their immune systems just a little more.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Zelen on May 11, 2022, 04:40:32 PM
"Fourth covid jab gives higher antibody levels than those seen after third, study suggests" - reported by Reuters (sponsored by Pfizer) today.

Unbelievable that they're still pushing this shit. And millions of chumps will dutifully line up to fuck up their immune systems just a little more.

~50% of Pfizer's revenue is from the injections. They are not going to stop.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: 3catcircus on May 11, 2022, 05:39:36 PM
"Fourth covid jab gives higher antibody levels than those seen after third, study suggests" - reported by Reuters (sponsored by Pfizer) today.

Unbelievable that they're still pushing this shit. And millions of chumps will dutifully line up to fuck up their immune systems just a little more.

The important point is what they're not reporting - that the immune boost lasts only a few weeks...
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: DocJones on May 11, 2022, 07:54:28 PM
I wonder how this guy is doing:
Man in Germany gets 90 COVID-19 shots to sell forged passes (https://abcnews.go.com/Business/wireStory/man-germany-90-covid-19-shots-sell-forged-83844435)
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on May 11, 2022, 09:24:39 PM
"Fourth covid jab gives higher antibody levels than those seen after third, study suggests" - reported by Reuters (sponsored by Pfizer) today.

Unbelievable that they're still pushing this shit. And millions of chumps will dutifully line up to fuck up their immune systems just a little more.

The important point is what they're not reporting - that the immune boost lasts only a few weeks...

The T-cells last much, much longer. We JUST went over that. Which means you might get Covid, but your system is able to make new anti-bodies generally before you might need hospitalization.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: 3catcircus on May 12, 2022, 10:45:07 AM
"Fourth covid jab gives higher antibody levels than those seen after third, study suggests" - reported by Reuters (sponsored by Pfizer) today.

Unbelievable that they're still pushing this shit. And millions of chumps will dutifully line up to fuck up their immune systems just a little more.

The important point is what they're not reporting - that the immune boost lasts only a few weeks...

The T-cells last much, much longer. We JUST went over that. Which means you might get Covid, but your system is able to make new anti-bodies generally before you might need hospitalization.

T cells aren't going to come from a booster jab if you've already gotten COVID or already got two jabs to begin with.  An article in Immunity was published citing UPenn research showing this.

https://www.pennmedicine.org/news/news-releases/2021/august/penn-study-details-robust-tcell-response-to-mrna-covid19-vaccines

Its crystal clear that the only reason for anyone to get boosters if they've already gotten the initial vaccines or have already had covid is if they want to line the pockets of Pfizer executives...
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on May 12, 2022, 02:33:15 PM
  The VAST overwhelming number of people who get Covid do not need hospitalization.  I am glad the small minority of people who do need it have a shot they can take that will keep them out of the hospital.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: PSIandCO on May 14, 2022, 12:33:47 PM
I wonder how this guy is doing:
Man in Germany gets 90 COVID-19 shots to sell forged passes (https://abcnews.go.com/Business/wireStory/man-germany-90-covid-19-shots-sell-forged-83844435)

I will say this, "He is lucky to be alive." almost 2% DIE, another 6% are permanently disabled, the rest don't know how or why they have "Brain fog" or suddenly catch "Auto-immune" diseases, why the autism rate is now 1-in-6 and headed to 1-in-2, skin lesions, food allergies, learning disabilities...

how much of this stuff DID NOT EXIST prior to 1980?  ... The answer is, almost all of it.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on May 14, 2022, 03:15:38 PM
I wonder how this guy is doing:
Man in Germany gets 90 COVID-19 shots to sell forged passes (https://abcnews.go.com/Business/wireStory/man-germany-90-covid-19-shots-sell-forged-83844435)

I will say this, "He is lucky to be alive." almost 2% DIE, another 6% are permanently disabled, the rest don't know how or why they have "Brain fog" or suddenly catch "Auto-immune" diseases, why the autism rate is now 1-in-6 and headed to 1-in-2, skin lesions, food allergies, learning disabilities...

how much of this stuff DID NOT EXIST prior to 1980?  ... The answer is, almost all of it.
wut
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on May 15, 2022, 10:09:09 PM
"Fourth covid jab gives higher antibody levels than those seen after third, study suggests" - reported by Reuters (sponsored by Pfizer) today.

Unbelievable that they're still pushing this shit. And millions of chumps will dutifully line up to fuck up their immune systems just a little more.

The important point is what they're not reporting - that the immune boost lasts only a few weeks...

The T-cells last much, much longer. We JUST went over that. Which means you might get Covid, but your system is able to make new anti-bodies generally before you might need hospitalization.

T cells aren't going to come from a booster jab if you've already gotten COVID or already got two jabs to begin with.  An article in Immunity was published citing UPenn research showing this.

https://www.pennmedicine.org/news/news-releases/2021/august/penn-study-details-robust-tcell-response-to-mrna-covid19-vaccines

Its crystal clear that the only reason for anyone to get boosters if they've already gotten the initial vaccines or have already had covid is if they want to line the pockets of Pfizer executives...

Not really a good argument against the vaccine itself though, is it?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on May 15, 2022, 10:10:49 PM
I wonder how this guy is doing:
Man in Germany gets 90 COVID-19 shots to sell forged passes (https://abcnews.go.com/Business/wireStory/man-germany-90-covid-19-shots-sell-forged-83844435)

I will say this, "He is lucky to be alive." almost 2% DIE, another 6% are permanently disabled, the rest don't know how or why they have "Brain fog" or suddenly catch "Auto-immune" diseases, why the autism rate is now 1-in-6 and headed to 1-in-2, skin lesions, food allergies, learning disabilities...

how much of this stuff DID NOT EXIST prior to 1980?  ... The answer is, almost all of it.

WTF are you going onn about?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: jeff37923 on May 16, 2022, 12:33:19 AM
I wonder how this guy is doing:
Man in Germany gets 90 COVID-19 shots to sell forged passes (https://abcnews.go.com/Business/wireStory/man-germany-90-covid-19-shots-sell-forged-83844435)

I will say this, "He is lucky to be alive." almost 2% DIE, another 6% are permanently disabled, the rest don't know how or why they have "Brain fog" or suddenly catch "Auto-immune" diseases, why the autism rate is now 1-in-6 and headed to 1-in-2, skin lesions, food allergies, learning disabilities...

how much of this stuff DID NOT EXIST prior to 1980?  ... The answer is, almost all of it.

WTF are you going onn about?

Apparently the COVID-19 vaccines can travel back in time to create causality errors that evidence themselves as health problems.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on May 17, 2022, 12:02:47 AM
I wonder how this guy is doing:
Man in Germany gets 90 COVID-19 shots to sell forged passes (https://abcnews.go.com/Business/wireStory/man-germany-90-covid-19-shots-sell-forged-83844435)

I will say this, "He is lucky to be alive." almost 2% DIE, another 6% are permanently disabled, the rest don't know how or why they have "Brain fog" or suddenly catch "Auto-immune" diseases, why the autism rate is now 1-in-6 and headed to 1-in-2, skin lesions, food allergies, learning disabilities...

how much of this stuff DID NOT EXIST prior to 1980?  ... The answer is, almost all of it.

WTF are you going onn about?

Apparently the COVID-19 vaccines can travel back in time to create causality errors that evidence themselves as health problems.

Proof the Matrix is real! Wait...
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: dkabq on June 10, 2022, 12:06:20 PM
Revisiting the Bangladesh Mask RCT
https://www.argmin.net/2021/11/23/mask-rct-revisited/

tl:dr
"In the Bangladesh Mask RCT, there were nC=163,861 individuals from 300 villages in the control group. There were nT=178,322 individuals from 300 villages in the intervention group. The main end point of the study was whether their intervention reduced the number of individuals who both reported covid-like symptoms and tested seropositive at some point during the trial. The number of such individuals appears nowhere in their paper, and one has to compute this from the data they kindly provided: There were iC=1,106 symptomatic individuals confirmed seropositive in the control group and iT=1,086 such individuals in the treatment group. The difference between the two groups was small: only 20 cases out of over 340,000 individuals over a span of 8 weeks.

I have a hard time going from these numbers to the assured conclusions that “masks work” that was promulgated by the media or the authors after this preprint appeared."

Here is the link to his previous post:
https://www.argmin.net/2021/09/13/effect-size/

Here are the links to the aforementioned promulgations:
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/09/masks-were-working-all-along/619989/
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2021/09/01/masks-study-covid-bangladesh/
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/26/opinion/do-masks-work-for-covid-prevention.html

I especially like that in the 2nd to last paragraph, he points out that red cloth masks were more effective than surgical masks. I bet that is because red ones go faster.

Other posts of his related to the Bangladesh mask study:
https://www.argmin.net/2021/11/29/cluster-power/
https://www.argmin.net/2021/12/01/unblinding/

Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Stephen Tannhauser on June 10, 2022, 01:30:02 PM
"I have a hard time going from these numbers to the assured conclusions that “masks work” that was promulgated by the media or the authors after this preprint appeared."

Yeah, I have to admit my thoughts on that matter have always been, "If masks really worked*, you wouldn't need studies to see that they worked."

(For "worked", read "slowed the spread of infection well enough in actual deployment to be worth imposing as a mandate". That a specific infected person will emit fewer viral particles into his environment when masked is a given. That this makes enough difference to actual in-community transmission to be worth doing is a much dodgier question.)
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: 3catcircus on June 10, 2022, 04:26:07 PM
"I have a hard time going from these numbers to the assured conclusions that “masks work” that was promulgated by the media or the authors after this preprint appeared."

Yeah, I have to admit my thoughts on that matter have always been, "If masks really worked*, you wouldn't need studies to see that they worked."

(For "worked", read "slowed the spread of infection well enough in actual deployment to be worth imposing as a mandate". That a specific infected person will emit fewer viral particles into his environment when masked is a given. That this makes enough difference to actual in-community transmission to be worth doing is a much dodgier question.)

It depends. For disease spread by droplets, it can make a difference. For disease spread by aerosols, not at all if it is anything less than an N95.  The physical size of aerosols is small enough to slip right through the weave on a surgical mask. Viral particles are typically between 0.05 and 0.8  micrometers in diameter. In still air, it'll take about 40 hrs for a 0.5 micrometer sized particle to settle out of suspension by about 5 feet and it'll take about the same amount of time to reach a half life in concentration of those same sized particles in turbulent air.

It's always been more about the ventilation to dilute viral particle concentration rather than wearing of masks with a weave that is larger than the size of the viral particles.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on June 10, 2022, 05:41:33 PM
"I have a hard time going from these numbers to the assured conclusions that “masks work” that was promulgated by the media or the authors after this preprint appeared."

Yeah, I have to admit my thoughts on that matter have always been, "If masks really worked*, you wouldn't need studies to see that they worked."

(For "worked", read "slowed the spread of infection well enough in actual deployment to be worth imposing as a mandate". That a specific infected person will emit fewer viral particles into his environment when masked is a given. That this makes enough difference to actual in-community transmission to be worth doing is a much dodgier question.)

It depends. For disease spread by droplets, it can make a difference. For disease spread by aerosols, not at all if it is anything less than an N95.  The physical size of aerosols is small enough to slip right through the weave on a surgical mask. Viral particles are typically between 0.05 and 0.8  micrometers in diameter. In still air, it'll take about 40 hrs for a 0.5 micrometer sized particle to settle out of suspension by about 5 feet and it'll take about the same amount of time to reach a half life in concentration of those same sized particles in turbulent air.

It's always been more about the ventilation to dilute viral particle concentration rather than wearing of masks with a weave that is larger than the size of the viral particles.
Yet some people were saying that wearing masks supposedly prevented them (or, as some claimed, their kids) from getting enough oxygen...molecules of which are too small to be impeded by even an N95.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Shasarak on June 10, 2022, 07:10:11 PM
"I have a hard time going from these numbers to the assured conclusions that “masks work” that was promulgated by the media or the authors after this preprint appeared."

Yeah, I have to admit my thoughts on that matter have always been, "If masks really worked*, you wouldn't need studies to see that they worked."

(For "worked", read "slowed the spread of infection well enough in actual deployment to be worth imposing as a mandate". That a specific infected person will emit fewer viral particles into his environment when masked is a given. That this makes enough difference to actual in-community transmission to be worth doing is a much dodgier question.)

It depends. For disease spread by droplets, it can make a difference. For disease spread by aerosols, not at all if it is anything less than an N95.  The physical size of aerosols is small enough to slip right through the weave on a surgical mask. Viral particles are typically between 0.05 and 0.8  micrometers in diameter. In still air, it'll take about 40 hrs for a 0.5 micrometer sized particle to settle out of suspension by about 5 feet and it'll take about the same amount of time to reach a half life in concentration of those same sized particles in turbulent air.

It's always been more about the ventilation to dilute viral particle concentration rather than wearing of masks with a weave that is larger than the size of the viral particles.
Yet some people were saying that wearing masks supposedly prevented them (or, as some claimed, their kids) from getting enough oxygen...molecules of which are too small to be impeded by even an N95.

Thats why Happydaze wears three masks - just to make sure.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: dkabq on June 10, 2022, 08:47:06 PM
"I have a hard time going from these numbers to the assured conclusions that “masks work” that was promulgated by the media or the authors after this preprint appeared."

Yeah, I have to admit my thoughts on that matter have always been, "If masks really worked*, you wouldn't need studies to see that they worked."

(For "worked", read "slowed the spread of infection well enough in actual deployment to be worth imposing as a mandate". That a specific infected person will emit fewer viral particles into his environment when masked is a given. That this makes enough difference to actual in-community transmission to be worth doing is a much dodgier question.)

It depends. For disease spread by droplets, it can make a difference. For disease spread by aerosols, not at all if it is anything less than an N95.  The physical size of aerosols is small enough to slip right through the weave on a surgical mask. Viral particles are typically between 0.05 and 0.8  micrometers in diameter. In still air, it'll take about 40 hrs for a 0.5 micrometer sized particle to settle out of suspension by about 5 feet and it'll take about the same amount of time to reach a half life in concentration of those same sized particles in turbulent air.

It's always been more about the ventilation to dilute viral particle concentration rather than wearing of masks with a weave that is larger than the size of the viral particles.
Yet some people were saying that wearing masks supposedly prevented them (or, as some claimed, their kids) from getting enough oxygen...molecules of which are too small to be impeded by even an N95.

The pressure drop across the mask would result in an increase in the work of breathing needed to intake the same amount of air, or a reduction in respiration volume (and hence oxygen) for the same work of breathing. Also, the mask would result in an increase in CO2 re-breathing which can make your breathing feel labored. My first job out of graduate school was working in a physiology department lab investigating the impact of design modifications on work of breathing and CO2 re-breathing for deep water diving helmets.

Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on June 10, 2022, 10:48:08 PM
"I have a hard time going from these numbers to the assured conclusions that “masks work” that was promulgated by the media or the authors after this preprint appeared."

Yeah, I have to admit my thoughts on that matter have always been, "If masks really worked*, you wouldn't need studies to see that they worked."

(For "worked", read "slowed the spread of infection well enough in actual deployment to be worth imposing as a mandate". That a specific infected person will emit fewer viral particles into his environment when masked is a given. That this makes enough difference to actual in-community transmission to be worth doing is a much dodgier question.)

It depends. For disease spread by droplets, it can make a difference. For disease spread by aerosols, not at all if it is anything less than an N95.  The physical size of aerosols is small enough to slip right through the weave on a surgical mask. Viral particles are typically between 0.05 and 0.8  micrometers in diameter. In still air, it'll take about 40 hrs for a 0.5 micrometer sized particle to settle out of suspension by about 5 feet and it'll take about the same amount of time to reach a half life in concentration of those same sized particles in turbulent air.

It's always been more about the ventilation to dilute viral particle concentration rather than wearing of masks with a weave that is larger than the size of the viral particles.
Yet some people were saying that wearing masks supposedly prevented them (or, as some claimed, their kids) from getting enough oxygen...molecules of which are too small to be impeded by even an N95.

The pressure drop across the mask would result in an increase in the work of breathing needed to intake the same amount of air, or a reduction in respiration volume (and hence oxygen) for the same work of breathing. Also, the mask would result in an increase in CO2 re-breathing which can make your breathing feel labored. My first job out of graduate school was working in a physiology department lab investigating the impact of design modifications on work of breathing and CO2 re-breathing for deep water diving helmets.
How much does.wearing a simple surgical/procedural mask or even a cloth mask impact work of breathing or CO2 rebreathing? I doubt they are anything like the deep water diving helmet you were working on.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: GeekyBugle on June 11, 2022, 12:02:27 AM
"I have a hard time going from these numbers to the assured conclusions that “masks work” that was promulgated by the media or the authors after this preprint appeared."

Yeah, I have to admit my thoughts on that matter have always been, "If masks really worked*, you wouldn't need studies to see that they worked."

(For "worked", read "slowed the spread of infection well enough in actual deployment to be worth imposing as a mandate". That a specific infected person will emit fewer viral particles into his environment when masked is a given. That this makes enough difference to actual in-community transmission to be worth doing is a much dodgier question.)

It depends. For disease spread by droplets, it can make a difference. For disease spread by aerosols, not at all if it is anything less than an N95.  The physical size of aerosols is small enough to slip right through the weave on a surgical mask. Viral particles are typically between 0.05 and 0.8  micrometers in diameter. In still air, it'll take about 40 hrs for a 0.5 micrometer sized particle to settle out of suspension by about 5 feet and it'll take about the same amount of time to reach a half life in concentration of those same sized particles in turbulent air.

It's always been more about the ventilation to dilute viral particle concentration rather than wearing of masks with a weave that is larger than the size of the viral particles.
Yet some people were saying that wearing masks supposedly prevented them (or, as some claimed, their kids) from getting enough oxygen...molecules of which are too small to be impeded by even an N95.

The pressure drop across the mask would result in an increase in the work of breathing needed to intake the same amount of air, or a reduction in respiration volume (and hence oxygen) for the same work of breathing. Also, the mask would result in an increase in CO2 re-breathing which can make your breathing feel labored. My first job out of graduate school was working in a physiology department lab investigating the impact of design modifications on work of breathing and CO2 re-breathing for deep water diving helmets.
How much does.wearing a simple surgical/procedural mask or even a cloth mask impact work of breathing or CO2 rebreathing? I doubt they are anything like the deep water diving helmet you were working on.

Aaaaaand happyderp, being a disingenuous twat, chooses all the masks that are proven NOT TO WORK in preventing virus transmission.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: dkabq on June 11, 2022, 07:22:42 AM
"I have a hard time going from these numbers to the assured conclusions that “masks work” that was promulgated by the media or the authors after this preprint appeared."

Yeah, I have to admit my thoughts on that matter have always been, "If masks really worked*, you wouldn't need studies to see that they worked."

(For "worked", read "slowed the spread of infection well enough in actual deployment to be worth imposing as a mandate". That a specific infected person will emit fewer viral particles into his environment when masked is a given. That this makes enough difference to actual in-community transmission to be worth doing is a much dodgier question.)

It depends. For disease spread by droplets, it can make a difference. For disease spread by aerosols, not at all if it is anything less than an N95.  The physical size of aerosols is small enough to slip right through the weave on a surgical mask. Viral particles are typically between 0.05 and 0.8  micrometers in diameter. In still air, it'll take about 40 hrs for a 0.5 micrometer sized particle to settle out of suspension by about 5 feet and it'll take about the same amount of time to reach a half life in concentration of those same sized particles in turbulent air.

It's always been more about the ventilation to dilute viral particle concentration rather than wearing of masks with a weave that is larger than the size of the viral particles.
Yet some people were saying that wearing masks supposedly prevented them (or, as some claimed, their kids) from getting enough oxygen...molecules of which are too small to be impeded by even an N95.

The pressure drop across the mask would result in an increase in the work of breathing needed to intake the same amount of air, or a reduction in respiration volume (and hence oxygen) for the same work of breathing. Also, the mask would result in an increase in CO2 re-breathing which can make your breathing feel labored. My first job out of graduate school was working in a physiology department lab investigating the impact of design modifications on work of breathing and CO2 re-breathing for deep water diving helmets.
How much does.wearing a simple surgical/procedural mask or even a cloth mask impact work of breathing or CO2 rebreathing? I doubt they are anything like the deep water diving helmet you were working on.

You are correct that the effect magnitudes between a cloth or surgical mask are very different from those of a deep water diving helmet. But the physics are the same. The question then becomes at what point does an increase in the work of breathing and CO2 rebreathing have a material negative impact. I do not have an answer to that question.

Here's one study that concluded:
"According to the literature, these [measured] concentrations [of CO2] have no toxicological effect. However, concentrations in the detected range can cause undesirable symptoms, such as fatigue, headache, and loss of concentration."
https://clinicalnews.org/2021/08/23/effect-of-wearing-face-masks-on-the-carbon-dioxide-concentration-in-the-breathing-zone/

But it is just one study.

Of course, the question that is begged at this point is why put masks on kids in the first place? If you aren't making them wear properly fitted/properly worn N95s (good luck with that) you are just playing fuck-around (even the Communist News Network chief medical propagandist says cloth masks are nothing more than "facial decorations".

I specially love it when the maskubators make kids wear masks while outside -- gotta love the SCIENCE!(tm).

Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on June 11, 2022, 08:50:14 AM
"I have a hard time going from these numbers to the assured conclusions that “masks work” that was promulgated by the media or the authors after this preprint appeared."

Yeah, I have to admit my thoughts on that matter have always been, "If masks really worked*, you wouldn't need studies to see that they worked."

(For "worked", read "slowed the spread of infection well enough in actual deployment to be worth imposing as a mandate". That a specific infected person will emit fewer viral particles into his environment when masked is a given. That this makes enough difference to actual in-community transmission to be worth doing is a much dodgier question.)

It depends. For disease spread by droplets, it can make a difference. For disease spread by aerosols, not at all if it is anything less than an N95.  The physical size of aerosols is small enough to slip right through the weave on a surgical mask. Viral particles are typically between 0.05 and 0.8  micrometers in diameter. In still air, it'll take about 40 hrs for a 0.5 micrometer sized particle to settle out of suspension by about 5 feet and it'll take about the same amount of time to reach a half life in concentration of those same sized particles in turbulent air.

It's always been more about the ventilation to dilute viral particle concentration rather than wearing of masks with a weave that is larger than the size of the viral particles.
Yet some people were saying that wearing masks supposedly prevented them (or, as some claimed, their kids) from getting enough oxygen...molecules of which are too small to be impeded by even an N95.

The pressure drop across the mask would result in an increase in the work of breathing needed to intake the same amount of air, or a reduction in respiration volume (and hence oxygen) for the same work of breathing. Also, the mask would result in an increase in CO2 re-breathing which can make your breathing feel labored. My first job out of graduate school was working in a physiology department lab investigating the impact of design modifications on work of breathing and CO2 re-breathing for deep water diving helmets.
How much does.wearing a simple surgical/procedural mask or even a cloth mask impact work of breathing or CO2 rebreathing? I doubt they are anything like the deep water diving helmet you were working on.

Aaaaaand happyderp, being a disingenuous twat, chooses all the masks that are proven NOT TO WORK in preventing virus transmission.
I'm discussing the same masks that were used by those that were arguing they weren't getting sufficient oxygen through them.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: I on June 11, 2022, 01:57:45 PM



How much does.wearing a simple surgical/procedural mask or even a cloth mask impact work of breathing or CO2 rebreathing? I doubt they are anything like the deep water diving helmet you were working on.

It impacts breathing a lot, if you're doing physical labor.  If you're thinking of an office worker, not much difference... but try wearing one in a hot factory where you're having to lift heavy containers repeatedly for two-three hours at a stretch.  At the factory where I work, we had three people pass out from heat/lack of oxygen the first day back with the mask protocols in place.  That never happened when we didn't have the masks.  I didn't pass out, but there were times I had to just go off into a corner, take my mask off and gasp for air because I was getting light-headed.  I'm not overweight and there's nothing wrong with my breathing, either.  I eventually just took to wearing a cloth bandanna over my face, like an Old West train robber.  Didn't do jack shit to stop the spread of a virus, but it met their stupid voodoo "scientific" mask requirements and it allowed me to breathe more easily.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Pat on June 11, 2022, 04:05:23 PM



How much does.wearing a simple surgical/procedural mask or even a cloth mask impact work of breathing or CO2 rebreathing? I doubt they are anything like the deep water diving helmet you were working on.

It impacts breathing a lot, if you're doing physical labor.  If you're thinking of an office worker, not much difference... but try wearing one in a hot factory where you're having to lift heavy containers repeatedly for two-three hours at a stretch.  At the factory where I work, we had three people pass out from heat/lack of oxygen the first day back with the mask protocols in place.  That never happened when we didn't have the masks.  I didn't pass out, but there were times I had to just go off into a corner, take my mask off and gasp for air because I was getting light-headed.  I'm not overweight and there's nothing wrong with my breathing, either.  I eventually just took to wearing a cloth bandanna over my face, like an Old West train robber.  Didn't do jack shit to stop the spread of a virus, but it met their stupid voodoo "scientific" mask requirements and it allowed me to breathe more easily.
Toward the start of the pandemic, I remember watching a video of a doctor. He was young, as if he just got out of medical school last week. He was also skinny and fit. He measured his blood ox level. Then he put on a surgical mask, and measured it again. No change. And a second mask. No change. And a third mask, no change. And then he basically called everyone idiots for thinking masks reduced oxygen intake.

There's no excuse for that. He's a doctor, he knows better. If someone is fat, or older, or has a condition like emphysema, or is engaged in physical labor instead of sitting there in front of a computer doing nothing, their blood ox levels can drop a lot more quickly.

If the CDC was about science instead of propaganda, that's one of the many randomized controlled trials they could have run during the course of the pandemic: A test of blood ox levels for people of various ages, in various degrees of fitness, engaged in variously strenuous activities, while wearing different types of masks. But they didn't.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: dkabq on June 11, 2022, 04:58:45 PM
A double dose of Dr. Prasad.

Biden Drops PreFlight COVID Test | NYC Drops Toddler Masking | Time to Celebrate or Get an Apology?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUtP5HQkmIg

"Why would anyone trust a scientific agency that believes zero is the right number of cluster randomized controlled trials during a pandemic!?! That's not a scientific agency, that's an agency that is choosing to operate on insufficient evidence."


Isolating from your pet? | NYTimes' COVID MANIA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPVJOryk4v0
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: 3catcircus on June 11, 2022, 09:41:29 PM
A double dose of Dr. Prasad.

Biden Drops PreFlight COVID Test | NYC Drops Toddler Masking | Time to Celebrate or Get an Apology?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUtP5HQkmIg

"Why would anyone trust a scientific agency that believes zero is the right number of cluster randomized controlled trials during a pandemic!?! That's not a scientific agency, that's an agency that is choosing to operate on insufficient evidence."


Isolating from your pet? | NYTimes' COVID MANIA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPVJOryk4v0

The "experts" at the CDC would read your words about RCTs, recognize them as being written in the English language, and still have no idea what you're talking about.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: dkabq on June 14, 2022, 01:50:43 PM
Will HealthCare Workers Have to Mask Forever? | Trudeau gets COVID Twice | Paxlovid & Ivermectin RCT
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGqPSXh539c

tl:dw
"If I were to reflect on the pandemic, let me think about the number of cluster randomized control trials that tested the universal masking of everyone in the hospital -- that number is zero."

Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: dkabq on June 22, 2022, 06:35:06 AM
Dr. Prasad takes down false claims regarding kids and the covid vaccine.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykwMAur0RTM
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on July 11, 2022, 09:27:43 AM
Significant drops in fertility (along with huge spike in miscarriages, stillbirths and sudden mortality in newborns) recorded in Germany and Taiwan. In Israel there's a noted decline in quality of donated sperm. Nothing to see there. Couldn't possibly be the jabs...
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: dkabq on July 13, 2022, 06:42:25 AM
Yet Another Booster? Based on What Data? | Biden's Plan for a 4th COVID19 Shot | A Prof Reflects
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBaYOM7_nfI
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on July 13, 2022, 10:03:17 AM
Lightning strikes twice at a Manchester school: https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/whats-on/family-kids-news/sudden-death-pupil-second-tragedy-24468916

From official ONS statistics in the UK:

(https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/f9f21f18290cbd5a33ecbd33653b000f47857df4fa7a57027c2cde7c9e8f1902.jpg?w=600&h=401)

This is a scandal, yet being ignored. Children are dying because of the jabs they never needed.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: dkabq on July 18, 2022, 07:13:41 AM
Angry Doctors | Mad That They got COVID19 & Cursing the World | It's Poor Form
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMPjWHvprXA

Just goes to show that even doctors can be midwits.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Timothe on July 19, 2022, 08:12:24 PM
I know more people who have died from The Covid than these obnoxious Math statistics can explain.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on July 19, 2022, 08:38:37 PM
I know more people who have died from The Covid than these obnoxious Math statistics can explain.
 

  I think you may even out my experience then, because of the 40 or so people I know personally that got Covid, one had to go to the hospital and no one died. 
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ratman_tf on July 19, 2022, 08:43:46 PM
I know more people who have died from The Covid than these obnoxious Math statistics can explain.
 

  I think you may even out my experience then, because of the 40 or so people I know personally that got Covid, one had to go to the hospital and no one died.

I think I had one aquaintance on social media post that they'd lost someone to Covid. So I know one. Out of all my real life friends, family and aquaintances.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: 3catcircus on July 20, 2022, 06:54:08 PM
I know more people who have died from The Covid than these obnoxious Math statistics can explain.
 

  I think you may even out my experience then, because of the 40 or so people I know personally that got Covid, one had to go to the hospital and no one died.

I think I had one aquaintance on social media post that they'd lost someone to Covid. So I know one. Out of all my real life friends, family and aquaintances.

My 84-yr old M-I-L had COVID last week. No paxlovid because she's in Stg 3 kidney disease.  All better now. COVID is endemic and only the frail and sick will die - just like any typical cold and flu season.

There's no doubt that COVID was engineered. There's no doubt that statistics were manipulated for political gain. It's even possible that the current strains were introduced to be a killswitch for the OG, A, and D strains. Trust no one in any position of authority who tells you otherwise.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on July 20, 2022, 07:32:00 PM
I know more people who have died from The Covid than these obnoxious Math statistics can explain.
 

  I think you may even out my experience then, because of the 40 or so people I know personally that got Covid, one had to go to the hospital and no one died.

I think I had one aquaintance on social media post that they'd lost someone to Covid. So I know one. Out of all my real life friends, family and aquaintances.

My 84-yr old M-I-L had COVID last week. No paxlovid because she's in Stg 3 kidney disease.  All better now. COVID is endemic and only the frail and sick will die - just like any typical cold and flu season.

There's no doubt that COVID was engineered. There's no doubt that statistics were manipulated for political gain. It's even possible that the current strains were introduced to be a killswitch for the OG, A, and D strains. Trust no one in any position of authority who tells you otherwise.
That's some grade-A conspiracy theory fertilizer (shit) you've got there, especially your last sentence.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Shasarak on July 20, 2022, 08:37:53 PM
I know more people who have died from The Covid than these obnoxious Math statistics can explain.
 

  I think you may even out my experience then, because of the 40 or so people I know personally that got Covid, one had to go to the hospital and no one died.

I think I had one aquaintance on social media post that they'd lost someone to Covid. So I know one. Out of all my real life friends, family and aquaintances.

My 84-yr old M-I-L had COVID last week. No paxlovid because she's in Stg 3 kidney disease.  All better now. COVID is endemic and only the frail and sick will die - just like any typical cold and flu season.

There's no doubt that COVID was engineered. There's no doubt that statistics were manipulated for political gain. It's even possible that the current strains were introduced to be a killswitch for the OG, A, and D strains. Trust no one in any position of authority who tells you otherwise.
That's some grade-A conspiracy theory fertilizer (shit) you've got there, especially your last sentence.

Yes you should always believe whatever they tell you on CNN and never your lying eyes.

Otherwise you are a conspiracy theorist.  Ohh, conspiracy theorist!   ::)
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: jeff37923 on July 21, 2022, 05:30:25 AM
I know more people who have died from The Covid than these obnoxious Math statistics can explain.
 

  I think you may even out my experience then, because of the 40 or so people I know personally that got Covid, one had to go to the hospital and no one died.

I think I had one aquaintance on social media post that they'd lost someone to Covid. So I know one. Out of all my real life friends, family and aquaintances.

My 84-yr old M-I-L had COVID last week. No paxlovid because she's in Stg 3 kidney disease.  All better now. COVID is endemic and only the frail and sick will die - just like any typical cold and flu season.

There's no doubt that COVID was engineered. There's no doubt that statistics were manipulated for political gain. It's even possible that the current strains were introduced to be a killswitch for the OG, A, and D strains. Trust no one in any position of authority who tells you otherwise.
That's some grade-A conspiracy theory fertilizer (shit) you've got there, especially your last sentence.

Yes you should always believe whatever they tell you on CNN and never your lying eyes.

Otherwise you are a conspiracy theorist.  Ohh, conspiracy theorist!   ::)

Conspiracy theorist is the new -ist.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on July 21, 2022, 07:18:12 AM
I know more people who have died from The Covid than these obnoxious Math statistics can explain.

Impressive, I don't know a single person who's even been hospitalised by the dread 'rona, never mind died "with". I know countless people who were mildly ill then got better.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on July 21, 2022, 09:21:03 AM
I know more people who have died from The Covid than these obnoxious Math statistics can explain.

Impressive, I don't know a single person who's even been hospitalised by the dread 'rona, never mind died "with". I know countless people who were mildly ill then got better.
I know several that died, many they required hospitalization, and even more that had milder cases and recovered on their own (some with medics tx, some without). The first two categories are primarily known to me through work, while most of the latter are personal contacts. Central Florida was a hotspot for some time, and we had a high  concentration in some of the (predominantly Hispanic, largely Puerto Rican) neighborhoods where primary care is rarely sought.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Shasarak on July 21, 2022, 11:31:19 PM
I hear that Brandon has Covid.

Maybe he should have gotten the Vaccine and boosters?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Timothe on July 22, 2022, 02:03:09 AM
The play-by-play fake news has stated that he’s received all of them.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Timothe on July 22, 2022, 02:03:23 AM
EDIT: DELETE/DOUBLE POST.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on July 22, 2022, 05:32:03 AM
I hear that Brandon has Covid.

Maybe he should have gotten the Vaccine and boosters?

  Maybe he has it, maybe the democrats are trying to stuff his ass in a box till midterms are over so he can stop reminding the country he is a brain damaged retard.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ghostmaker on July 24, 2022, 06:15:21 PM
Before some of you knuckleheads feel the need to bash on Kiero further, you might consider this story:

https://www.science.org/content/article/potential-fabrication-research-images-threatens-key-theory-alzheimers-disease

Short form? It appears an entire line of Alzheimer's research is going to have to be flushed down the drain, because it was fabricated.

'The science is settled', eh?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Timothe on July 25, 2022, 12:32:33 PM
Someone asked earlier:

I know a pastor and his wife who caught it early on. The pastor recovered but his wife had to go to the hospital and she died within the next two weeks.

I know a fellow gamer in Northwest Arkansas whose father and wife both caught it. Both of them died within a week or two of being admitted to the hospital. Six months ago his surviving family all caught it again but fortunately no one died.

That’s why I said that people bragging about “The Math” didn’t cut it for me. And yes, many of these are elderly and/or infirm people but much of the population is old, Diabetic, overweight, etc., a few but not most who do not die from the seasonal Flu.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: GeekyBugle on July 25, 2022, 01:59:21 PM
Before some of you knuckleheads feel the need to bash on Kiero further, you might consider this story:

https://www.science.org/content/article/potential-fabrication-research-images-threatens-key-theory-alzheimers-disease

Short form? It appears an entire line of Alzheimer's research is going to have to be flushed down the drain, because it was fabricated.

'The science is settled', eh?

Science is never settled, even the best evidence backed Theory (The theory of evolution by natural selection) is constantly revised (punctuated equilibrium and rapid evolution anyone?) and would be thrown into the bin if evidence to the contrary was discovered.

If it can't be challenged it's called Dogma, in the leftoid's case Religious Dogma fits perfectly.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Visitor Q on July 25, 2022, 02:34:41 PM
I know more people who have died from The Covid than these obnoxious Math statistics can explain.

Impressive, I don't know a single person who's even been hospitalised by the dread 'rona, never mind died "with". I know countless people who were mildly ill then got better.

A close family member of mine died with/of COVID. Conversely they were very ill anyway.

Similarly my local parish priest was very stressed in the early days of COVID with the sheer number of funerals he was conducting.

That said I don't know anyone who was even reasonably healthy who has died of COVID. These days in particular it seems very mild.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on July 28, 2022, 11:07:16 AM
Before some of you knuckleheads feel the need to bash on Kiero further, you might consider this story:

https://www.science.org/content/article/potential-fabrication-research-images-threatens-key-theory-alzheimers-disease

Short form? It appears an entire line of Alzheimer's research is going to have to be flushed down the drain, because it was fabricated.

'The science is settled', eh?

"Science" is just as compromised and corrupt as the rest of academia.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Zelen on July 29, 2022, 12:13:32 PM
Someone asked earlier:

I know a pastor and his wife who caught it early on. The pastor recovered but his wife had to go to the hospital and she died within the next two weeks.

I know a fellow gamer in Northwest Arkansas whose father and wife both caught it. Both of them died within a week or two of being admitted to the hospital. Six months ago his surviving family all caught it again but fortunately no one died.

That’s why I said that people bragging about “The Math” didn’t cut it for me. And yes, many of these are elderly and/or infirm people but much of the population is old, Diabetic, overweight, etc., a few but not most who do not die from the seasonal Flu.

The best thing we could've done would have been to follow the advice of the Great Barrington Declaration (https://gbdeclaration.org/). The worst thing we could've done is what we did.

Obviously people who are infirm should be protected, and the best way we could have done that would have been to have healthy people develop natural antibodies while vulnerable people were isolated. Instead, we got governors putting sick people in nursing homes to guarantee the spread among the most vulnerable population, while healthy people isolated themselves for something they weren't at risk for. Not only were elderly people hurt, but everyone was hurt by harmful lockdowns & masking policies that didn't help anyone except politicians & the ultra rich.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: dkabq on July 29, 2022, 12:56:17 PM
Someone asked earlier:

I know a pastor and his wife who caught it early on. The pastor recovered but his wife had to go to the hospital and she died within the next two weeks.

I know a fellow gamer in Northwest Arkansas whose father and wife both caught it. Both of them died within a week or two of being admitted to the hospital. Six months ago his surviving family all caught it again but fortunately no one died.

That’s why I said that people bragging about “The Math” didn’t cut it for me. And yes, many of these are elderly and/or infirm people but much of the population is old, Diabetic, overweight, etc., a few but not most who do not die from the seasonal Flu.

The best thing we could've done would have been to follow the advice of the Great Barrington Declaration (https://gbdeclaration.org/). The worst thing we could've done is what we did.

Obviously people who are infirm should be protected, and the best way we could have done that would have been to have healthy people develop natural antibodies while vulnerable people were isolated. Instead, we got governors putting sick people in nursing homes to guarantee the spread among the most vulnerable population, while healthy people isolated themselves for something they weren't at risk for. Not only were elderly people hurt, but everyone was hurt by harmful lockdowns & masking policies that didn't help anyone except politicians & the ultra rich.

Or even the pre-2020 pandemic protocols.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: dkabq on July 31, 2022, 11:09:03 AM
Fauci Will RETIRE! | What will his COVID19 Legacy Be?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2YfHglWMKA

https://youtu.be/l2YfHglWMKA?t=268
"The pre-pandemic consensus by the CDC, WHO, and pretty much anyone who had read the evidence was that community masking, particularly cloth masking, was thought to be ineffective, that was based on a totality of work including some small scale randomized controlled trials that were broadly negative."

https://www.cato.org/regulation/winter-2021/2022/how-effective-are-cloth-face-masks#
https://www.cato.org/working-paper/evidence-community-cloth-face-masking-limit-spread-sars-cov-2-critical-review#
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on July 31, 2022, 04:20:11 PM
So, any of you that refused the vaccine been imprisoned yet?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: dkabq on July 31, 2022, 04:34:43 PM
So, any of you that refused the vaccine been imprisoned yet?

Nope. But I was forced to choose between taking the vaccine (that does not stop you from catching covid or transmitting covid) or being fired from my job.

And we are still forced to wear facial decorations if the case rate is "too high". Of course, nobody has provided the technical basis for the threshold, but then having a technical basis doesn't seem to be necessary for the SCIENCE!(tm).

Perhaps the thread should be renamed, "Fire anyone who refuses the vax!"?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: HappyDaze on July 31, 2022, 06:10:47 PM
So, any of you that refused the vaccine been imprisoned yet?
That might depend more on where they were on Jan 6, 2021.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on August 01, 2022, 12:04:45 AM
So, any of you that refused the vaccine been imprisoned yet?
That might depend more on where they were on Jan 6, 2021.

Pretty sure they can answer the question, "Yes I was imprisoned for refusing the vaccine" or "No I was not imprisoned for refusing the vaccine" without revealing their location?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on August 01, 2022, 12:06:13 AM
So, any of you that refused the vaccine been imprisoned yet?

Nope. But I was forced to choose between taking the vaccine (that does not stop you from catching covid or transmitting covid) or being fired from my job.

And we are still forced to wear facial decorations if the case rate is "too high". Of course, nobody has provided the technical basis for the threshold, but then having a technical basis doesn't seem to be necessary for the SCIENCE!(tm).

Perhaps the thread should be renamed, "Fire anyone who refuses the vax!"?

Were you fired for refusing the vaccine?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: dkabq on August 01, 2022, 07:06:01 AM
So, any of you that refused the vaccine been imprisoned yet?

Nope. But I was forced to choose between taking the vaccine (that does not stop you from catching covid or transmitting covid) or being fired from my job.

And we are still forced to wear facial decorations if the case rate is "too high". Of course, nobody has provided the technical basis for the threshold, but then having a technical basis doesn't seem to be necessary for the SCIENCE!(tm).

Perhaps the thread should be renamed, "Fire anyone who refuses the vax!"?

Were you fired for refusing the vaccine?

Nope. I could not take the financial hit, so I cravenly took the vax that doesn't stop you from transmitting or catching covid. Moreover, I already had natural immunity from catching covid before the vax. But since natural immunity isn't part of SCIENCE!(tm) it was ignored.

But hey, at least Pfizer got paid.


Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on August 01, 2022, 05:11:36 PM
So, any of you that refused the vaccine been imprisoned yet?

Nope. But I was forced to choose between taking the vaccine (that does not stop you from catching covid or transmitting covid) or being fired from my job.

And we are still forced to wear facial decorations if the case rate is "too high". Of course, nobody has provided the technical basis for the threshold, but then having a technical basis doesn't seem to be necessary for the SCIENCE!(tm).

Perhaps the thread should be renamed, "Fire anyone who refuses the vax!"?

Were you fired for refusing the vaccine?

Nope. I could not take the financial hit, so I cravenly took the vax that doesn't stop you from transmitting or catching covid. Moreover, I already had natural immunity from catching covid before the vax. But since natural immunity isn't part of SCIENCE!(tm) it was ignored.

But hey, at least Pfizer got paid.

I don't think that was a craven act at all. It's just adulthood with a family to support where you take a hit to protect your families welfare. In general that's more on the courageous than craven end of things.

Are you convinced they would have fired you if you hadn't? Or that you couldn't get away with a fake vax card?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: SHARK on August 01, 2022, 07:04:11 PM
Greetings!

Hopefully, the day will come when all of these fucking coward tyrants that forced the vaccine mandate will be forced to bathe in napalm. Thee people are all full of hate, tyranny, and delusions of power and authority. They are scum. They deserve to be ground up and jack-hammered with the most severe of judgments. They have sowed fear, terror, and tyranny into our great Republic, and against innocent people.

Yes, if *I* was king--these people would all know what true fear is all about. I would listen to the terrified people, the innocent citizens terrified and ruined by the vaccine mandate, and the guilty tyrants would be dragged forth, to suffer and pay for their crimes.

My judgment against them would be swift and harsh. I would not be kind to them.

Their judgment must be harsh, as an example to strike fear deep within the hearts of the rest of the evil, cock-sucking Marxist tyrants and petty, tyrant-wanna-be's: Yes, evil scum! WRATH is what awaits you!

These evil fucking tyrants are especially guilty, and especially deserving of wrath and judgment, for they have victimized and ruined whole swaths of our society; crippled huge sections of the economy; ushered in the poverty of millions of good Americans; Crushed and victimized schools and innocent children; and they have deeply wounded the great integrity and fabric of our Republic.

I know. Instead, we will just continue to dance and let these evil scum continue to rule and wallow in their wealth, status, and prestige.

High and low, men and women alike--they would face a very different reality if I was in charge. ;D

Our entire society needs to rise against these tyrants, everywhere, and resist them fiercely. Politicians, worthless bureaucrats, schoolboard members, teachers, administrative leeches, any and every kind of grifter, charlatan, and demagogue. They all must be resisted.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: dkabq on August 01, 2022, 08:34:34 PM
So, any of you that refused the vaccine been imprisoned yet?

Nope. But I was forced to choose between taking the vaccine (that does not stop you from catching covid or transmitting covid) or being fired from my job.

And we are still forced to wear facial decorations if the case rate is "too high". Of course, nobody has provided the technical basis for the threshold, but then having a technical basis doesn't seem to be necessary for the SCIENCE!(tm).

Perhaps the thread should be renamed, "Fire anyone who refuses the vax!"?

Were you fired for refusing the vaccine?

Nope. I could not take the financial hit, so I cravenly took the vax that doesn't stop you from transmitting or catching covid. Moreover, I already had natural immunity from catching covid before the vax. But since natural immunity isn't part of SCIENCE!(tm) it was ignored.

But hey, at least Pfizer got paid.

I don't think that was a craven act at all. It's just adulthood with a family to support where you take a hit to protect your families welfare. In general that's more on the courageous than craven end of things.

Are you convinced they would have fired you if you hadn't? Or that you couldn't get away with a fake vax card?

Yes. Because there were a small number of people that were fired for not getting vaccinated. Moreover, all of my company's job postings now have a covid vaccine requirement.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: dkabq on August 02, 2022, 03:19:41 PM
Gary Con 2023 to Require Initial Vaccine Shot(s) and at Least Two Boosters to Pick Up Badges
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0CzY59Lv04
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on August 03, 2022, 04:44:03 PM
  Well, at least they feed you in prison.  Unemployed and male, good luck.   I hope no companies get their shit pushed in over forcing employees to vaccinate.  That would be a tragedy. 
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on August 03, 2022, 05:34:54 PM
Gary Con 2023 to Require Initial Vaccine Shot(s) and at Least Two Boosters to Pick Up Badges
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0CzY59Lv04

Not quite. You need to be vaccinated, and up to date on boosters. To determine up-to-date you can use a CDC online tool or just read the recommendations. But bottom line if you are 1) under age 50, or 2) still within 4 months of your first booster, then you're up-to-date with just one booster.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: dkabq on August 03, 2022, 05:59:39 PM
Gary Con 2023 to Require Initial Vaccine Shot(s) and at Least Two Boosters to Pick Up Badges
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0CzY59Lv04

Not quite. You need to be vaccinated, and up to date on boosters. To determine up-to-date you can use a CDC online tool or just read the recommendations. But bottom line if you are 1) under age 50, or 2) still within 4 months of your first booster, then you're up-to-date with just one booster.

Can confirm:
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/stay-up-to-date.html

Regardless, they are still requiring you to take a vax (and possibly booster(s)) that does not prevent you from transmitting or catching covid.

Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: SHARK on August 03, 2022, 06:10:08 PM
Gary Con 2023 to Require Initial Vaccine Shot(s) and at Least Two Boosters to Pick Up Badges
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0CzY59Lv04

Greetings!

So sad. Gary Con can get fucked though. I will never attend one of these tyrannical fucking game conventions. Fuck them.

My sympathies as well, to you, dkabq. I have friends that had to get vaccinated to keep their jobs or to travel to Canada to see their family. They all think it is tyranny though, and none of them would be surprised if they grew mutations or suffer some terrible effects from being vaccinated. They have zero confidence in the government or the powers that be, and aren't thrilled at all.

I wish you the best, dkabq.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ghostmaker on August 03, 2022, 10:42:59 PM
Interestingly, DragonCon is requiring masks this year but no proof of vax or boosters.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on August 13, 2022, 11:40:49 AM
German health insurer reports a 30-fold increase in payouts for vaccine-related adverse effects (https://dailysceptic.org/2022/08/13/large-german-insurer-reports-staggering-rise-in-adverse-effects-from-covid-19-vaccines/) since the advent of the covid jabs:

Quote
According to a response to an official request for information (https://fragdenstaat.de/anfrage/abrechnungszahlen-fur-impfnebenwirkungen/#nachricht-716055) from the German Techniker Krankenkasse insurer, the number of billed cases of vaccine-related adverse effects needing medical treatment skyrocketed in 2021 compared with 2019 and 2020. The request relates to four diagnostic codes:

    T.88.0: Infection following immunisation
    T.88.1: Other complications after immunisation
    U.12.9: Adverse effects after Covid-19 immunisation
    Y.59.9: Complications due to vaccines or biological substances

In 2019, the total number of confirmed diagnoses was 13,777. In 2020 it was 15,044. In 2021 the total number was 437,593. This is more than thirty-fold the average for those four codes in 2019-2020, a 2,937% increase.

(https://dailysceptic.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/08/Screenshot-2022-08-12-at-23.16.03.png)

Quote
More precisely, it is the T.88.1 – Other complications after immunization, and U.12.9 – Adverse effects after Covid-19 immunization – that are spiking. The latter code of course has no data for the prior years, but close to 150 thousand incidences in 2021.

Approximately 11 million people are insured by the Techniker Krankenkasse. 473,593 cases of medical treatment resulting from vaccination thus amounts to around one in every 23 people vaccinated, assuming all 11 million are vaccinated. The rate for 2019 and 2020 is one in every 760 people.

Nothing to see here, of course...
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: GeekyBugle on August 26, 2022, 03:21:40 PM
Why are the dems saying Trump rushed the vaccine as if that was a bad thing? I thought the jabs were a good thing qand we should destroy the lives of those anti-vaxxer poopie heads.

Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Eirikrautha on August 26, 2022, 08:42:03 PM
Why are the dems saying Trump rushed the vaccine as if that was a bad thing? I thought the jabs were a good thing qand we should destroy the lives of those anti-vaxxer poopie heads.



Because multiple studies in multiple nations have made it nearly impossible to ignore the health damage caused by the vaccines.  So now the Covidiots need to deflect the blame onto Trump for their mandates...
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on August 28, 2022, 08:04:42 PM
It's a mystery what could be killing people in Israel in numbers higher than the "pandemic" of 2020...

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FbPnyW8WIAAIHQY?format=jpg&name=medium)

Is it climate change?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: GeekyBugle on August 29, 2022, 12:57:22 AM
UK has started to pay 140K pounds to covid jabs damage victims.

Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ratman_tf on August 29, 2022, 01:20:49 AM
UK has started to pay 140K pounds to covid jabs damage victims.

It's a bunch of QAnon Trumpist conspiracy bullshit! [/s]
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Eirikrautha on August 29, 2022, 06:40:54 AM
UK has started to pay 140K pounds to covid jabs damage victims.

And Pfizer has started running adds for boosters in the US, with a long list of possible side effects, including enlarged heart.  Funny, where was that list two years ago, when the mandates were in full swing and everyone was saying the vaccines were perfectly safe?  Oh, and they tout in the commercial that their Comernity brand of vaccines are FDA approved, but they don't state that those are the doses that you will be given (because you probably won't).  Add to that the FDA just approved the omicron booster without any human trials (only animal trials)...
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Daztur on August 29, 2022, 06:13:40 PM
It's a mystery what could be killing people in Israel in numbers higher than the "pandemic" of 2020...

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FbPnyW8WIAAIHQY?format=jpg&name=medium)

Is it climate change?

Source for those numbers? They don't match anything I was able tofind such as those here: knoema.com/atlas/Israel/topics/Demographics/Mortality/Number-of-deaths%3fmode=amp
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: dkabq on August 30, 2022, 08:51:34 AM
Myocarditis from Moderna 2nd Dose Higher in Men Under 40 than COVID19 | NEW PATRON, ET AL CIRC PAPER
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ft2hupW0aak
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: GeekyBugle on August 30, 2022, 11:28:51 AM
Myocarditis from Moderna 2nd Dose Higher in Men Under 40 than COVID19 | NEW PATRON, ET AL CIRC PAPER
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ft2hupW0aak

Wonder at what point Grim Jim and others who wanted to force people to get the jab will recognize their error and apologize?

Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on August 30, 2022, 06:33:13 PM
   I anxiously await the onslaught of propaganda to get Monkey pox vax......of course that will require some obfuscation surrounding its spread, but oh well money must be made.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: dkabq on August 31, 2022, 02:18:07 PM
Dr. Vinay Prasad: What McCullough, Malone Get RIGHT & WRONG |Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar
https://youtu.be/6h-wRTej72I?t=848
"So first, the reason I'm heterodox on these issues is I follow evidence and I don't follow what other people tell me to think."

"We need to talk about the vaccines"
https://unherd.com/2022/01/we-need-to-talk-about-the-vaccines/
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: GeekyBugle on August 31, 2022, 07:35:25 PM
HoRsE DeWoRmEr!

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8765582/ (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8765582/)
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Tallifer on September 01, 2022, 09:10:32 AM
Antivaxxers should just be let to pay with their life (or their wallet when hospitalized), just as drug addicts should have to pay with their lives for overdoses (out their wallet before receiving any naxalone). And no subsidies for monkey pox. Freedom to choose your life choices should mean freedom to pay for the same.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: dkabq on September 01, 2022, 09:49:41 AM
Antivaxxers should just be let to pay with their life (or their wallet when hospitalized), just as drug addicts should have to pay with their lives for overdoses (out their wallet before receiving any naxalone). And no subsidies for monkey pox. Freedom to choose your life choices should mean freedom to pay for the same.

Works for me. As long as we do the same with the obese, alcoholics, people that do not control their diabetes, high-blood pressure, etc. So if you are obese and get covid, you too get to pay with your life or wallet. I would even argue that if you got the vax and all of the boosters and still got covid, you should pay with your life or wallet, as obviously you were not pure enough in your worship of St. Facui.

The down-side is that the rehab hospital my wife works at would shut-down. 

Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on September 01, 2022, 11:21:24 AM
Antivaxxers should just be let to pay with their life (or their wallet when hospitalized), just as drug addicts should have to pay with their lives for overdoses (out their wallet before receiving any naxalone). And no subsidies for monkey pox. Freedom to choose your life choices should mean freedom to pay for the same.
  Same for fat asses who eat themselves to death, or people driving who speed, or people shot engaging in gang activity and so forth.  Calling people who rather not take a highly experimental and highly questionable (regarding efficacy) vax that was made to allow people to make shit loads of money, antivaxxers, is borderline retarded.  Might need a new word.  As for “risking” covid… been there and done that, and a little embarrassed for people terrified of getting it, or worse expose thier kids to an experiment due to fear of it.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: GeekyBugle on September 01, 2022, 11:37:42 AM
Antivaxxers should just be let to pay with their life (or their wallet when hospitalized), just as drug addicts should have to pay with their lives for overdoses (out their wallet before receiving any naxalone). And no subsidies for monkey pox. Freedom to choose your life choices should mean freedom to pay for the same.

Well, since I'm a straight male, happily married for almost 25 years, I'm not worried about the monkey pox.

Some extremist religious groups might even applaud you since it's something that's almost exclusively affecting the gay/bi communities.

Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: dkabq on September 02, 2022, 04:07:40 PM
CDC recommends the booster WIDELY after ACIP meeting | A Professor Reflects on this action
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GO2kOU0j7t8

Yet another example of why I don't trust the CDC.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: 3catcircus on September 02, 2022, 04:29:58 PM
Antivaxxers should just be let to pay with their life (or their wallet when hospitalized), just as drug addicts should have to pay with their lives for overdoses (out their wallet before receiving any naxalone). And no subsidies for monkey pox. Freedom to choose your life choices should mean freedom to pay for the same.

Well, since I'm a straight male, happily married for almost 25 years, I'm not worried about the monkey pox.

Some extremist religious groups might even applaud you since it's something that's almost exclusively affecting the gay/bi communities.

I thoroughly enjoy watching all the leftist gay activists whining about how we're doomed because of short supplies of vaccines for monkeypox.  What happened to 2 weeks to stop the spread?

They let a dozen strangers butter their dumpers and treat their mouths like a gas station toilet and are then *stunned* when they catch monkeypox (and gonorrhea and HIV, sometimes all at the same time).
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on September 02, 2022, 07:41:22 PM
Antivaxxers should just be let to pay with their life (or their wallet when hospitalized), just as drug addicts should have to pay with their lives for overdoses (out their wallet before receiving any naxalone). And no subsidies for monkey pox. Freedom to choose your life choices should mean freedom to pay for the same.

The jab doesn't work, and I've had covid and didn't even need medical attention, never mind hospitalisation. So fuck off.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: GeekyBugle on September 04, 2022, 12:28:42 PM
HoRsE PaStE!

https://www.theblaze.com/news/ivermectin-covid-treatment-new-study (https://www.theblaze.com/news/ivermectin-covid-treatment-new-study)
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Zelen on September 05, 2022, 10:32:29 PM
Last year there was quite a bit of traffic to Scott Alexander's substack article on Ivermectin (https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/ivermectin-much-more-than-you-wanted), where he essentially concludes that Ivermectin likely has little to no positive effect on Covid patients.

Alexandros Marinos is currently in the process of doing peer review (https://doyourownresearch.substack.com/p/the-potemkin-argument-part-14-achilles). He analyzes SA's methodology, showing the work, and demonstrates why it's wrong using the data that SA used. (Subsequent data like the study mentioned above strongly suggest that this is an effective therapy.)
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on September 06, 2022, 06:54:56 AM
From the SpikeVax trial waiver:

(https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/a4903935d4b12b4cb7f1f8205f94460332b65793fd135877c8b35f048600dd4b.jpg)

Totally normal...
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on September 06, 2022, 06:56:06 AM
HoRsE PaStE!

https://www.theblaze.com/news/ivermectin-covid-treatment-new-study (https://www.theblaze.com/news/ivermectin-covid-treatment-new-study)

We all know the horse paste and HCQ work for covid and could have saved a lot of lives. Unfortunately, they cost fuck all and make no profits for Big Pharma, so them's the breaks.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Tallifer on September 06, 2022, 08:39:08 AM
I call horseshit.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on September 06, 2022, 08:40:15 AM
I call horseshit.

You can "call" whatever the fuck you like, fact is they work and work well. Cheaply, and with few side effects, too.

Unlike the jabs. Which neither work, nor come without a host of side effects.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: 3catcircus on September 06, 2022, 08:59:20 AM
Last year there was quite a bit of traffic to Scott Alexander's substack article on Ivermectin (https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/ivermectin-much-more-than-you-wanted), where he essentially concludes that Ivermectin likely has little to no positive effect on Covid patients.

Alexandros Marinos is currently in the process of doing peer review (https://doyourownresearch.substack.com/p/the-potemkin-argument-part-14-achilles). He analyzes SA's methodology, showing the work, and demonstrates why it's wrong using the data that SA used. (Subsequent data like the study mentioned above strongly suggest that this is an effective therapy.)

Come on man, hundreds of years of developing the scientific process is now invalid because of a new flu. It's even more invalid when dealing with monkeypox... TrUsT tHe ScIeNcE!!!1!1

If they could, they would continue to lock people down (like the poor Chinese people who are in a lockdown right now who will die because of an earthquake for which no rescue is coming - because the sniffles.) The kids in Newark NJ get to start a new school year in masks.

*Everyone* who was declared a charlatan and cancelled for pointing out that masks don't work, that the shots are not safe for the majority of users and not effective in the long term, and that antivirals and antiparasitics are effective is now being proven to be correct.  There's no doubt that the shots work, on the very short term, as a pre-exposure therapeutic to reduce the severity of illness for those who have a higher risk of complications, but that's it.  It's not even as good as Tamiflu for influenza, because you have to take it before you get infected, and it has to be within a few months of getting the shot. Never mind that for most people, getting COVID provides long term immunity to that strain plus additional newer strains because getting infected includes an immune response to more than just a single spike protein.

What do we do about those who were complicit in silencing those who thought for themselves over the last 2 years? Or of the "leaders" who knowingly sent people with COVID to the *one* place what there would be those vulnerable to it, killing thousands of elderly nursing home residents? What do we do about those who *changed* the definitions of what a vaccine is to try and fit the description of a pre-exposure therapeutic? Or those that are now admitting that they *knew* it was all horseshit (horse paste puns not intended) and didn't do anything about it?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: I on September 06, 2022, 09:17:36 AM
Antivaxxers should just be let to pay with their life (or their wallet when hospitalized), just as drug addicts should have to pay with their lives for overdoses (out their wallet before receiving any naxalone). And no subsidies for monkey pox. Freedom to choose your life choices should mean freedom to pay for the same.

Well, since I'm a straight male, happily married for almost 25 years, I'm not worried about the monkey pox.

Some extremist religious groups might even applaud you since it's something that's almost exclusively affecting the gay/bi communities.

I thoroughly enjoy watching all the leftist gay activists whining about how we're doomed because of short supplies of vaccines for monkeypox.  What happened to 2 weeks to stop the spread?

They let a dozen strangers butter their dumpers and treat their mouths like a gas station toilet and are then *stunned* when they catch monkeypox (and gonorrhea and HIV, sometimes all at the same time).

Here's a super-degenerate with monkeypox and HIV and every STD known, and his nose is rotting off:  https://nypost.com/2022/08/17/monkeypox-patients-nose-is-rotting-after-being-dismissed-as-sunburn/

Proof positive you shouldn't bury your face in another man's asscrack and chow down.  On the plus side, he can still taste his man days later by just licking the scabs and sores around his lips.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ratman_tf on September 06, 2022, 07:31:36 PM
What do we do about those who were complicit in silencing those who thought for themselves over the last 2 years? Or of the "leaders" who knowingly sent people with COVID to the *one* place what there would be those vulnerable to it, killing thousands of elderly nursing home residents? What do we do about those who *changed* the definitions of what a vaccine is to try and fit the description of a pre-exposure therapeutic? Or those that are now admitting that they *knew* it was all horseshit (horse paste puns not intended) and didn't do anything about it?

Not much. We can keep making noise, but they're going to get away pretty much scott-free, because they laid their propoganda well and covered themselves with the PREP act.
The most we can expect is a nonpology along the lines of "We did the best we could at the time." When they obviously didn't know jack shit, supressed any criticism, and took advantage of the situation for financial gain.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: GeekyBugle on September 09, 2022, 08:06:47 PM
The vaccine is perfectly safe you anti-vaxxer conspiratards!

https://thefederalist.com/2022/09/09/cdc-admits-post-vaccine-myocarditis-concerns-that-were-labeled-covid-misinformation-are-legit/ (https://thefederalist.com/2022/09/09/cdc-admits-post-vaccine-myocarditis-concerns-that-were-labeled-covid-misinformation-are-legit/)
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ghostmaker on September 10, 2022, 09:40:50 AM
The vaccine is perfectly safe you anti-vaxxer conspiratards!

https://thefederalist.com/2022/09/09/cdc-admits-post-vaccine-myocarditis-concerns-that-were-labeled-covid-misinformation-are-legit/ (https://thefederalist.com/2022/09/09/cdc-admits-post-vaccine-myocarditis-concerns-that-were-labeled-covid-misinformation-are-legit/)
The lawyers are going to make bank on this. Guaranteed.

And for all the people saying, 'But Big Pharma was protected!', well, you might consider how the left has been trying to get around the Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms act for a while, and in a couple states they're flat-out wiping their ass with it.

Oh, the victims will most likely never get full restitution, but I hope Big Pharm's got some amazing insurance policies and backup plans.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: GeekyBugle on September 10, 2022, 12:18:46 PM
The vaccine is perfectly safe you anti-vaxxer conspiratards!

https://thefederalist.com/2022/09/09/cdc-admits-post-vaccine-myocarditis-concerns-that-were-labeled-covid-misinformation-are-legit/ (https://thefederalist.com/2022/09/09/cdc-admits-post-vaccine-myocarditis-concerns-that-were-labeled-covid-misinformation-are-legit/)
The lawyers are going to make bank on this. Guaranteed.

And for all the people saying, 'But Big Pharma was protected!', well, you might consider how the left has been trying to get around the Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms act for a while, and in a couple states they're flat-out wiping their ass with it.

Oh, the victims will most likely never get full restitution, but I hope Big Pharm's got some amazing insurance policies and backup plans.

I think 3 class law suits should go:

Against the Pharmaceuticals
Against the Government
Against Social Media for censoring information.

Maybe add a fourth against the press but I don't think that one would ammount to anything.

The fourth should be against the government for colluding with social media to censor people and wipe their ass with the 1st ammendment.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ratman_tf on September 10, 2022, 02:37:26 PM
The vaccine is perfectly safe you anti-vaxxer conspiratards!

https://thefederalist.com/2022/09/09/cdc-admits-post-vaccine-myocarditis-concerns-that-were-labeled-covid-misinformation-are-legit/ (https://thefederalist.com/2022/09/09/cdc-admits-post-vaccine-myocarditis-concerns-that-were-labeled-covid-misinformation-are-legit/)
The lawyers are going to make bank on this. Guaranteed.

And for all the people saying, 'But Big Pharma was protected!', well, you might consider how the left has been trying to get around the Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms act for a while, and in a couple states they're flat-out wiping their ass with it.

Oh, the victims will most likely never get full restitution, but I hope Big Pharm's got some amazing insurance policies and backup plans.

Lawsuits notoriously take years to resolve. I imagine the PREP act protections will at least delay and prolong any lawsuits into the time scale of decades.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on September 12, 2022, 06:12:16 PM
The lawyers are going to make bank on this. Guaranteed.

And for all the people saying, 'But Big Pharma was protected!', well, you might consider how the left has been trying to get around the Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms act for a while, and in a couple states they're flat-out wiping their ass with it.

Oh, the victims will most likely never get full restitution, but I hope Big Pharm's got some amazing insurance policies and backup plans.

No amount of money can restore your health or give you back a foreshortened life.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on September 12, 2022, 06:15:01 PM
Published today by those anti-vaxxers at Harvard, John Hopkins et al: https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4206070

From the Abstract:
Quote
We estimate that 22,000 - 30,000 previously uninfected adults aged 18-29 must be boosted with an mRNA vaccine to prevent one COVID-19 hospitalisation. Using CDC and sponsor-reported adverse event data, we find that booster mandates may cause a net expected harm: per COVID-19 hospitalisation prevented in previously uninfected young adults, we anticipate 18 to 98 serious adverse events, including 1.7 to 3.0 booster-associated myocarditis cases in males, and 1,373 to 3,234 cases of grade ≥3 reactogenicity which interferes with daily activities. Given the high prevalence of post-infection immunity, this risk-benefit profile is even less favourable.

Up to 30,000 jabs are necessary to prevent one hospitalisation, but cause up to 98 "serious events" (including death) and thousands of adverse reactions.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Stephen Tannhauser on September 12, 2022, 07:38:45 PM
No amount of money can restore your health or give you back a foreshortened life.

No, but the legal precedent of a successful suit might make it less likely to happen again.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ratman_tf on September 13, 2022, 03:20:06 AM
No amount of money can restore your health or give you back a foreshortened life.

No, but the legal precedent of a successful suit might make it less likely to happen again.

Before Covid, I might have agreed with that.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: 3catcircus on September 13, 2022, 07:54:25 AM
No amount of money can restore your health or give you back a foreshortened life.

No, but the legal precedent of a successful suit might make it less likely to happen again.

Before Covid, I might have agreed with that.

Concur. The only way to prevent this shit from happening again is to vote out every single elected official who supported it and ensure that they throw out all of the lower level appointees and career bureaucrats involved, and ensure that every corporate shareholder group does the same for corporations. Or go to war and kill them all.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on September 14, 2022, 07:13:12 AM
Concur. The only way to prevent this shit from happening again is to vote out every single elected official who supported it and ensure that they throw out all of the lower level appointees and career bureaucrats involved, and ensure that every corporate shareholder group does the same for corporations. Or go to war and kill them all.

Our respective establishments don't give a fuck about the people, voting or the law. I know which one of your options would actually solve the problem.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: 3catcircus on September 14, 2022, 09:01:32 AM
Concur. The only way to prevent this shit from happening again is to vote out every single elected official who supported it and ensure that they throw out all of the lower level appointees and career bureaucrats involved, and ensure that every corporate shareholder group does the same for corporations. Or go to war and kill them all.

Our respective establishments don't give a fuck about the people, voting or the law. I know which one of your options would actually solve the problem.

I do too. But its the need to turn a critical mass/geometry of people that is the difficult part.  IIRC, only about 10% of the colonials were involved in the whole throwing off the British yoke thing. We're so heterogeneous as nations now, it would take a much larger percentage to reach that critical mass) geometry.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: dkabq on September 14, 2022, 10:58:30 AM
11 reasons an annual COVID-19 booster is NOT LIKE an annual flu shot
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USKDUvKmN5Q
https://twitter.com/VPrasadMDMPH/status/1569693780743458816

Anyone care to take a tilt at refuting his points?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ghostmaker on September 14, 2022, 11:26:10 AM
Concur. The only way to prevent this shit from happening again is to vote out every single elected official who supported it and ensure that they throw out all of the lower level appointees and career bureaucrats involved, and ensure that every corporate shareholder group does the same for corporations. Or go to war and kill them all.

Our respective establishments don't give a fuck about the people, voting or the law. I know which one of your options would actually solve the problem.

I do too. But its the need to turn a critical mass/geometry of people that is the difficult part.  IIRC, only about 10% of the colonials were involved in the whole throwing off the British yoke thing. We're so heterogeneous as nations now, it would take a much larger percentage to reach that critical mass) geometry.
The number I've seen is 3% (hence the 'Three Percenter' movement often touted as a bogeyman in lefty circles).

Hell, if you got one percent of Trump voters -- not the population, just his supporters -- you'd have a nightmare that'd make the Irish Troubles look like a kindergarten slapfight.

And there ain't nothin' civil about a civil war.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: 3catcircus on September 14, 2022, 12:09:34 PM
Concur. The only way to prevent this shit from happening again is to vote out every single elected official who supported it and ensure that they throw out all of the lower level appointees and career bureaucrats involved, and ensure that every corporate shareholder group does the same for corporations. Or go to war and kill them all.

Our respective establishments don't give a fuck about the people, voting or the law. I know which one of your options would actually solve the problem.

I do too. But its the need to turn a critical mass/geometry of people that is the difficult part.  IIRC, only about 10% of the colonials were involved in the whole throwing off the British yoke thing. We're so heterogeneous as nations now, it would take a much larger percentage to reach that critical mass) geometry.
The number I've seen is 3% (hence the 'Three Percenter' movement often touted as a bogeyman in lefty circles).

Hell, if you got one percent of Trump voters -- not the population, just his supporters -- you'd have a nightmare that'd make the Irish Troubles look like a kindergarten slapfight.

And there ain't nothin' civil about a civil war.

I stand corrected on the percent.

I think a lot of this current hate and discontent would simply go away if the vast majority of people would do the following, because then corporations, elitists and lawmakers hold less sway over your life.

1. Move out of cities. Don't buy more house then you need.
2. Grow your own food (start small with a few easy veg and then work your way up to chickens and it's enough for most people).
3. Buy a well-made rifle. Doesn't need to be Gucci. And train with it regularly - where you'll likely meet other similarly-minded individuals.
4. Stop spending so much time consuming media other than actual books. Know that everything you see or read in the news is completely false. This is also how you avoid spending more than you can afford on unnecessary "needs."
5. Get your ass to the gym or walk a goodly distance each day.
6. Don't take on more responsibility at work - do as little as possible in your 9-5 and spend your free time working your side hustle until you can quit working for someone else.
7. Practice the religion of your choice. Despite fringe elements in all of them, almost every religion's mainstream tenets align with self-sufficient ethical and moral behavior.
8. Run for public office. Only stay 2 terms. This is a tough one because of the ease with which you can be corrupted, but getting a majority of non-politicians elected is the only way to make the professional politician go extinct.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Stephen Tannhauser on September 14, 2022, 02:15:03 PM
I think a lot of this current hate and discontent would simply go away if the vast majority of people would do the following, because then corporations, elitists and lawmakers hold less sway over your life.

1. Move out of cities. Don't buy more house then you need.
2. Grow your own food (start small with a few easy veg and then work your way up to chickens and it's enough for most people).
3. Buy a well-made rifle. Doesn't need to be Gucci. And train with it regularly - where you'll likely meet other similarly-minded individuals.
4. Stop spending so much time consuming media other than actual books. Know that everything you see or read in the news is completely false. This is also how you avoid spending more than you can afford on unnecessary "needs."
5. Get your ass to the gym or walk a goodly distance each day.
6. Don't take on more responsibility at work - do as little as possible in your 9-5 and spend your free time working your side hustle until you can quit working for someone else.
7. Practice the religion of your choice. Despite fringe elements in all of them, almost every religion's mainstream tenets align with self-sufficient ethical and moral behavior.
8. Run for public office. Only stay 2 terms. This is a tough one because of the ease with which you can be corrupted, but getting a majority of non-politicians elected is the only way to make the professional politician go extinct.

These are all really good ideas, but I think most of them would be more difficult to implement en masse than they sound, primarily because they're all riffs on a basic philosophy that is completely counter to most of how modern civilization is structured: They're all examples of taking up in-house responsibility rather than outsourcing to a gatekeeper specialist. And once the gatekeepers are in place, the best you can do is maintain a mechanism for replacing them when they're corrupted, because it is very rare that you will be able to dispense with them completely without unacceptable efficiency losses. (Indie publishing came close to breaking traditional publishing's hold on the book market with the rise of Amazon, but now the gatekeepers you have to please are the controllers of Amazon's promotion algorithms rather than the chief editors in Manhattan.)

Niche specialization is simply a more efficient way to run almost any cooperative endeavour than universal generalization; it's very labour- and energy-intensive to reverse that structure and sustain a society that avoids it. Even in any universally flexible point-design RPG system you can name where it's not required, adventuring parties almost always wind up with individuals optimized for specific functions rather than all of them being generalists.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: 3catcircus on September 14, 2022, 02:40:20 PM
I think a lot of this current hate and discontent would simply go away if the vast majority of people would do the following, because then corporations, elitists and lawmakers hold less sway over your life.

1. Move out of cities. Don't buy more house then you need.
2. Grow your own food (start small with a few easy veg and then work your way up to chickens and it's enough for most people).
3. Buy a well-made rifle. Doesn't need to be Gucci. And train with it regularly - where you'll likely meet other similarly-minded individuals.
4. Stop spending so much time consuming media other than actual books. Know that everything you see or read in the news is completely false. This is also how you avoid spending more than you can afford on unnecessary "needs."
5. Get your ass to the gym or walk a goodly distance each day.
6. Don't take on more responsibility at work - do as little as possible in your 9-5 and spend your free time working your side hustle until you can quit working for someone else.
7. Practice the religion of your choice. Despite fringe elements in all of them, almost every religion's mainstream tenets align with self-sufficient ethical and moral behavior.
8. Run for public office. Only stay 2 terms. This is a tough one because of the ease with which you can be corrupted, but getting a majority of non-politicians elected is the only way to make the professional politician go extinct.

These are all really good ideas, but I think most of them would be more difficult to implement en masse than they sound, primarily because they're all riffs on a basic philosophy that is completely counter to most of how modern civilization is structured: They're all examples of taking up in-house responsibility rather than outsourcing to a gatekeeper specialist. And once the gatekeepers are in place, the best you can do is maintain a mechanism for replacing them when they're corrupted, because it is very rare that you will be able to dispense with them completely without unacceptable efficiency losses. (Indie publishing came close to breaking traditional publishing's hold on the book market with the rise of Amazon, but now the gatekeepers you have to please are the controllers of Amazon's promotion algorithms rather than the chief editors in Manhattan.)

Niche specialization is simply a more efficient way to run almost any cooperative endeavour than universal generalization; it's very labour- and energy-intensive to reverse that structure and sustain a society that avoids it. Even in any universally flexible point-design RPG system you can name where it's not required, adventuring parties almost always wind up with individuals optimized for specific functions rather than all of them being generalists.

They're difficult to enact because people are addicted to self-destructive keeping up with the Joneses.

I'm just as guilty of it. I spend too much on my 9-5 and not enough on my side hustle. I don't get as much exercise as I should. I don't grow lots of different veg.  But - I don't live in a crime-ridden Dem- run shithole city. I don't watch a lot of TV or mindlessly surf Facebook and TikTok. I walk a good distance each day. We try to eat without it being extravagantly expensive (cooking for yourself is so much less costly than takeout or dining out) and we butcher whole chickens instead of buying a pack pre-butchered, buy a full ribeye and break it into steaks, etc., even if having two teenage student-athletes means they eat a week's worth of food for a single lunch...

We don't keep subscriptions we aren't using (ditched SiriusXM when they fired Anthony Cumia, ditched Paramount+ and Peacock before free trial was up, etc.) where its just pennies a day that actually add up and the companies make it difficult to cancel because it is less hassle to keep it if you aren't using it. That's close to$600 per year if we were unwilling to have to deal with the hassle and just let them take free money each month.

We buy coffee in bulk and grind and make it ourselves using a pourover with a steel mesh filter. $50/month for coffee is a lot cheaper than $5-$10/day.

We vote in every election cycle and actually study the candidates. Your first race as a Dem and I like what I'm seeing? I'll give you a shot. 8 term Republican and my taxes aren't single digits and my roads aren't pegged in gold? Sorry, you're not getting my vote.

And that's all literally what it takes to get rid of bad government and bad corporatism - having to exert a little bit of effort. Most people are lazy as fuck and won't even do the minimum, given half a chance...
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on September 15, 2022, 04:25:51 AM
I do too. But its the need to turn a critical mass/geometry of people that is the difficult part.  IIRC, only about 10% of the colonials were involved in the whole throwing off the British yoke thing. We're so heterogeneous as nations now, it would take a much larger percentage to reach that critical mass) geometry.

The "British yoke" was incredibly light and absent-minded, not to mention that lots of British people agreed with the colonists. There was never more than a half-hearted attempt to retain the 13 Colonies, not when contrasted with the greater value from retaining India.

Furthermore, most of the fighting was between Americans, Loyalist versus Patriot militias. The Revolutionary War was primarily a civil war, rather than an independence war.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: 3catcircus on September 15, 2022, 07:34:08 AM
I do too. But its the need to turn a critical mass/geometry of people that is the difficult part.  IIRC, only about 10% of the colonials were involved in the whole throwing off the British yoke thing. We're so heterogeneous as nations now, it would take a much larger percentage to reach that critical mass) geometry.

The "British yoke" was incredibly light and absent-minded, not to mention that lots of British people agreed with the colonists. There was never more than a half-hearted attempt to retain the 13 Colonies, not when contrasted with the greater value from retaining India.

Furthermore, most of the fighting was between Americans, Loyalist versus Patriot militias. The Revolutionary War was primarily a civil war, rather than an independence war.

No doubt, but it just further illustrates how much more difficult it is to convince people that their situation can be different. They don't have to continue "taking it" if they would just expend a modicum of effort to do so.

I recall seeing a tweet or post (might have been here) about all of the pols in office for decades and a response from a non-USian along the lines of "don't you have to confirm they're staying by voting for them every 4 years?" This highlights both the fact that voting matters and that apathy in the face of a comfortable western lifestyle has allowed things to get so bad - and that the lack of accountability that comes with continued incumbency emboldens politicians and unelected bureaucrats to lie, cheat, and steal - at taxes, elections, and performance of duties.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Zelen on September 16, 2022, 12:06:59 PM
Extremely worthwhile read (https://pandauncut.substack.com/p/were-the-unprecedented-excess-deaths?sd=pf) Jonathan Engler:
Quote
It is worth considering this counterfactual: imagine there was no virus at all, but that for some other reason (any will do) governments decided to institute a range of measures including:
  • Telling people not to attend healthcare if they had a cough, fever or other symptoms both to “protect” healthcare and also because any contact with healthcare would quite likely make you contract a deadly disease.
  • Telling healthcare staff to isolate if they (or in some cases someone in their household) received a positive test for a certain illness, even if asymptomatic.
  • Emptying beds in preparation for being “overwhelmed”.
  • Terrorizing and isolating elderly people especially those living in care homes, denying them visits from relatives and reducing or eliminating in-personal visits from health and social carers.
  • Using the entire machinery of state plus all social media and legacy mainstream media channels to promote an exaggerated narrative of fear aimed at the public and spilling over into healthcare workers, when it is well established that stress has a number of adverse health effects, including immuno-suppression.
  • Massive overuse of a treatment (ventilation) with no solid evidential basis, now known to be extremely harmful.

The implementation of such policies would result in protests in the streets with people declaring that “thousands of people will surely die”, and no doubt they would have been right.

This is a really important observation when paired with the data now compellingly demonstrating that Sars-Cov-2/Covid-19 was in circulation before the "pandemic" started. The evidence from Italy corroborates the idea that the excess deaths suffered were in large part due to the measures taken.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on September 16, 2022, 02:28:54 PM
Extremely worthwhile read (https://pandauncut.substack.com/p/were-the-unprecedented-excess-deaths?sd=pf) Jonathan Engler:
Quote
It is worth considering this counterfactual: imagine there was no virus at all, but that for some other reason (any will do) governments decided to institute a range of measures including:
  • Telling people not to attend healthcare if they had a cough, fever or other symptoms both to “protect” healthcare and also because any contact with healthcare would quite likely make you contract a deadly disease.
  • Telling healthcare staff to isolate if they (or in some cases someone in their household) received a positive test for a certain illness, even if asymptomatic.
  • Emptying beds in preparation for being “overwhelmed”.
  • Terrorizing and isolating elderly people especially those living in care homes, denying them visits from relatives and reducing or eliminating in-personal visits from health and social carers.
  • Using the entire machinery of state plus all social media and legacy mainstream media channels to promote an exaggerated narrative of fear aimed at the public and spilling over into healthcare workers, when it is well established that stress has a number of adverse health effects, including immuno-suppression.
  • Massive overuse of a treatment (ventilation) with no solid evidential basis, now known to be extremely harmful.

The implementation of such policies would result in protests in the streets with people declaring that “thousands of people will surely die”, and no doubt they would have been right.

This is a really important observation when paired with the data now compellingly demonstrating that Sars-Cov-2/Covid-19 was in circulation before the "pandemic" started. The evidence from Italy corroborates the idea that the excess deaths suffered were in large part due to the measures taken.

There's a couple of additional strands missing from Engler's analysis:
1) Deliberate withholding of known, cheap, effective treatments (HCQ and Ivermectin), in order to justify the emergency use authorisation of the jabs.
2) A policy of what was effectively euthanasia of the elderly in care homes and hospitals, with abnormally outsized volumes of drugs like Midazolam used in 2020. Not just in the UK, but in New York state and other places, too.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: 3catcircus on September 16, 2022, 02:37:16 PM
Extremely worthwhile read (https://pandauncut.substack.com/p/were-the-unprecedented-excess-deaths?sd=pf) Jonathan Engler:
Quote
It is worth considering this counterfactual: imagine there was no virus at all, but that for some other reason (any will do) governments decided to institute a range of measures including:
  • Telling people not to attend healthcare if they had a cough, fever or other symptoms both to “protect” healthcare and also because any contact with healthcare would quite likely make you contract a deadly disease.
  • Telling healthcare staff to isolate if they (or in some cases someone in their household) received a positive test for a certain illness, even if asymptomatic.
  • Emptying beds in preparation for being “overwhelmed”.
  • Terrorizing and isolating elderly people especially those living in care homes, denying them visits from relatives and reducing or eliminating in-personal visits from health and social carers.
  • Using the entire machinery of state plus all social media and legacy mainstream media channels to promote an exaggerated narrative of fear aimed at the public and spilling over into healthcare workers, when it is well established that stress has a number of adverse health effects, including immuno-suppression.
  • Massive overuse of a treatment (ventilation) with no solid evidential basis, now known to be extremely harmful.

The implementation of such policies would result in protests in the streets with people declaring that “thousands of people will surely die”, and no doubt they would have been right.

This is a really important observation when paired with the data now compellingly demonstrating that Sars-Cov-2/Covid-19 was in circulation before the "pandemic" started. The evidence from Italy corroborates the idea that the excess deaths suffered were in large part due to the measures taken.

Excess deaths due to the measures taken is one thing. In the first months of 2020, doctors can be excused for not understanding that intubation wasn't going to be the cure-all. But by May of 2020, they all *knew* it was killing people instead of saving them.  They also somehow forgot a hundred+ years of basic medical knowledge - you know - like - isolation will result in an unchallenged immune system making people get sick from stuff that they wouldn't normally once they start interacting with others. Or that COVID - being just like every other coronavirus - would eventually mutate into being just another cold virus. Which it has. My wife felt sick last Friday and tested herself with a RAT. Positive. The rest of us in the house? Didn't get sick - even with no masking (and her coughing right in my face while we slept). Her symptoms? Headache, sore throat, mild fever, cough caused by post nasal drip, congestion. She went back to work the Tuesday following because no fever, feeling improved, and negative RAT.  4 days of a head cold.

Not to mention all of the people who died because they couldn't get surgeries or chemo or radiation. And the people who suicided because of no mental health care and forced isolation (especially in light of the experts and the elites not following the draconian measures they imposed on others like the Gavin Newsom French Laundry dinner, the Brit minister breaking quarantine to go fuck his side piece, etc.)

I'm convinced more and more that every single person in a position of authority who insisted upon these measures and pushed them on politicians (who are not all that bright. Cunning and deceitful, yes, but not all that bright) is complicit and they should all be rounded up and killed or enslaved. All of the politicians who blindly followed these recommended measures should be removed from office.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on September 16, 2022, 03:11:02 PM
Neil Ferguson wasn't a minister, he was an advisor. One who has consistently got it wrong, from crisis to crisis, his modelling has always been hugely pessimistic and out by orders of magnitude.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Stephen Tannhauser on September 16, 2022, 06:20:21 PM
Neil Ferguson wasn't a minister, he was an advisor. One who has consistently got it wrong, from crisis to crisis, his modelling has always been hugely pessimistic and out by orders of magnitude.

And that is always what elected politicians seize on, because the optics of having overreacted to a danger that turned out not to be as bad as everybody feared are always better than the optics of underreacting to a danger that turns out to be worse than anybody expected.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on September 16, 2022, 06:28:15 PM
And that is always what elected politicians seize on, because the optics of having overreacted to a danger that turned out not to be as bad as everybody feared are always better than the optics of underreacting to a danger that turns out to be worse than anybody expected.

There never was any danger. Coronaviruses are a nothing. They knew this, which is why they were happy to use it to trial all this authoritarian bullshit.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Stephen Tannhauser on September 16, 2022, 06:39:26 PM
There never was any danger. Coronaviruses are a nothing. They knew this, which is why they were happy to use it to trial all this authoritarian bullshit.

They certainly had no excuse for not figuring it out after a few months, but I remember the genuine panic in March 2020. The whole point of it being a novel coronavirus was that they didn't know if it was as harmless as known varieties.

(And if their intelligence apparati had reason to suspect it was a lab leak, a hypothesis I always thought and still think likely, they had no way to be sure it hadn't had its lethality deliberately ratcheted up by the gain-of-function experiments they knew that lab was doing, either -- the only source of data was China, and anyone who believes anything China's government says of itself at face value is ... inexperienced.)

Morbidly, I have to wonder which is the worse indictment: Knowing the bug isn't as dangerous as feared and outright lying, or simply not caring how dangerous it actually is because it can be spun to be a good excuse in any case?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ghostmaker on September 19, 2022, 11:58:38 AM
Just in time to try and take the heat off the Democrats...

https://legalinsurrection.com/2022/09/biden-declares-the-pandemic-is-over/

I'm sure this has nothing to do with how Biden and the Dems are less popular than the preparation for a colonoscopy.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: 3catcircus on September 19, 2022, 12:02:29 PM
Just in time to try and take the heat off the Democrats...

https://legalinsurrection.com/2022/09/biden-declares-the-pandemic-is-over/

I'm sure this has nothing to do with how Biden and the Dems are less popular than the preparation for a colonoscopy.

Except President Klain immediately started backpedaling after his trained chimp Biden said that...
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ghostmaker on September 20, 2022, 09:32:06 AM
Just in time to try and take the heat off the Democrats...

https://legalinsurrection.com/2022/09/biden-declares-the-pandemic-is-over/

I'm sure this has nothing to do with how Biden and the Dems are less popular than the preparation for a colonoscopy.

Except President Klain immediately started backpedaling after his trained chimp Biden said that...
This happens a lot. Watching the White House suddenly backpedal after the zombie declared for defending Taiwan is fascinating in a horrific way.

The phrase that comes to mind is, 'Excuse me, who's in charge here?'.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on September 21, 2022, 05:38:04 AM
Those antivaxxers at the New England Journal of Medicine: https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2209371

Conclude that infection with covid (and subequent recovery) is far more effective than the jabs in children. And the protection offered by natural immunity is much longer lasting. Gosh, what a surprise!

Though they had to justify their funding by claiming the waning of immunity makes the case for boosters. Yeah, right.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: 3catcircus on September 21, 2022, 10:24:03 AM
Those antivaxxers at the New England Journal of Medicine: https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2209371

Conclude that infection with covid (and subequent recovery) is far more effective than the jabs in children. And the protection offered by natural immunity is much longer lasting. Gosh, what a surprise!

Though they had to justify their funding by claiming the waning of immunity makes the case for boosters. Yeah, right.

This.  No one realizes that the annual flu vax is only about 40% effective on average with the highest being 60% in one of the years.  Why would this be any different when the mutation rate is similar to flu...

Anecdotally: wife and I got original Pfizer clot shot in spring of 2021. Then entire family (me, wife, son, daughter) got delta in Sep 2021. Both kids had cold symptoms for about 3 days. Wife and I had fever, severe nasal congestion, no smell/taste, fatigue, and our SpO2% was around 96% (fun fact - that's right around the saturation where you feel like you can't get your breath - like you're in the mountains).  We both were given monoclonal antibodies. My daughter (13) decided she wanted covid shot after getting sick. Son (16) did not. Wife and I got booster in Dec at urging of our family doctor (who has otherwise been very critical of authorities re: HCQ and ivermectin - if it can't hurt, no reason not to try was his attitude).

After holidays Jan 2022, my son had headache and congestion. Tested positive. I got a slight fever and some muscle aches for half a day, along with change to certain tastes. Wife, daughter not sick.

Fast forward to 2 weeks ago. Wife had sore throat, slight fever, head cold symptoms. Tested positive. Lasted 4 days and then legacy cough. She coughed right in my face one night in our sleep the night before she woke up feeling sick. I did not get sick after 10 days (and still not). Daughter has COVID right now (not from wife since it had been 2 weeks between wife and her getting it). Probably got it at school. Sore throat, headache, stuffy nose. No fever. Boy has some congestion but refused to test himself.

Conclusion: it's a cold.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on September 21, 2022, 11:08:59 AM
This.  No one realizes that the annual flu vax is only about 40% effective on average with the highest being 60% in one of the years.  Why would this be any different when the mutation rate is similar to flu...

40% is a good year for the flu jab, some years it's been as low as 5%.

Anecdotally: wife and I got original Pfizer clot shot in spring of 2021. Then entire family (me, wife, son, daughter) got delta in Sep 2021. Both kids had cold symptoms for about 3 days. Wife and I had fever, severe nasal congestion, no smell/taste, fatigue, and our SpO2% was around 96% (fun fact - that's right around the saturation where you feel like you can't get your breath - like you're in the mountains).  We both were given monoclonal antibodies. My daughter (13) decided she wanted covid shot after getting sick. Son (16) did not. Wife and I got booster in Dec at urging of our family doctor (who has otherwise been very critical of authorities re: HCQ and ivermectin - if it can't hurt, no reason not to try was his attitude).

After holidays Jan 2022, my son had headache and congestion. Tested positive. I got a slight fever and some muscle aches for half a day, along with change to certain tastes. Wife, daughter not sick.

Fast forward to 2 weeks ago. Wife had sore throat, slight fever, head cold symptoms. Tested positive. Lasted 4 days and then legacy cough. She coughed right in my face one night in our sleep the night before she woke up feeling sick. I did not get sick after 10 days (and still not). Daughter has COVID right now (not from wife since it had been 2 weeks between wife and her getting it). Probably got it at school. Sore throat, headache, stuffy nose. No fever. Boy has some congestion but refused to test himself.

Conclusion: it's a cold.

With the change of seasons here in the UK, lots of people are going down with respiratory infections. That's normal at this time of year, I had a cold at the weekend.

The jabbed, however, are getting very ill, laid out for days or even weeks. I've never been jabbed, no change to my normal ability to shrug the sniffles off after a day or two.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Stephen Tannhauser on September 21, 2022, 01:24:10 PM
This.  No one realizes that the annual flu vax is only about 40% effective on average with the highest being 60% in one of the years.  Why would this be any different when the mutation rate is similar to flu...

40% is a good year for the flu jab, some years it's been as low as 5%.

Which is one reason I've never bothered getting flu shots. Why stick a needle in me every year to prevent something that I maybe get once every five to six years at most to begin with, and which typically was never more than a day or two of fever, chills, congestion and occasionally nausea, when it almost never has better than a 50-50 chance of working anyway?

I figured if COVID was still bad enough to justify the vaccines after a few years, or the vaccines had made a real effective long-term difference while still being mostly safe, I could afford to wait a year or two to see. At this point neither of those conditions obtains.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on September 21, 2022, 05:49:08 PM
Which is one reason I've never bothered getting flu shots. Why stick a needle in me every year to prevent something that I maybe get once every five to six years at most to begin with, and which typically was never more than a day or two of fever, chills, congestion and occasionally nausea, when it almost never has better than a 50-50 chance of working anyway?

I figured if COVID was still bad enough to justify the vaccines after a few years, or the vaccines had made a real effective long-term difference while still being mostly safe, I could afford to wait a year or two to see. At this point neither of those conditions obtains.

I didn't get the covid jab for the same reason I have never had the flu jab: totally unnecessary. Turns out the covid jabs are even less effective than the flu jab, too.

As for your safe, the covid jabs are nothing of the sort, given the huge number of adverse reactions all the way up to death.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: dkabq on September 23, 2022, 03:52:46 PM
Closing thoughts on myocarditis and vaccines
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D8N6WxwvdTs

Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: dkabq on September 29, 2022, 06:47:46 AM
Double Standards: Legacy Media Covers a Doctors Unproven Anecdote But Not Myocarditis in Young Men
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZ4ptgME6TQ

Still waiting for the vaccine/CDC apologist to wreck Dr Prasad's arguments with facts and logic.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Zelen on September 30, 2022, 12:44:10 PM
(https://nitter.net/pic/media%2FFd6VqOBUcAIZmHS.png%3Fname%3Dsmall)
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on October 06, 2022, 08:41:21 AM
This thread on Twatter, looking at the blood of the jabbed: https://twitter.com/chrislittlewoo8/status/1577950371502252037

Quote
The Blood of the Jabbed.

This is a peer reviewed study of 1006 people who took the jab & what happened with their blood.

94% of the people showed abnormalities in their blood after the jab. 100% of these showed alterations to their blood post injection.

This is not normal.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FeX_kg-XgAE-0Q-?format=jpg&name=medium

Referring to this peer-reviewed study: https://ijvtpr.com/index.php/IJVTPR/article/view/47/95

I'm sure this is fine, though. No link whatsoever to the spike in non-covid deaths since the jab rollout...
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on October 11, 2022, 08:42:19 AM
Florida's Surgeon-General posts a tweet and link to research showing an 84% increase in cardiac-related deaths for men aged 18-39 who've been jabbed. Twatter blocks his post, then is forced to reinstate it.

https://www.theepochtimes.com/florida-surgeon-generals-warning-about-covid-vaccines-blocked-then-restored-by-twitter_4786123.html

Perfectly safe, though. All those ADRs (more than any other jab in history combined) are totally normal.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ratman_tf on October 13, 2022, 06:01:17 PM
Pfizer admits they did no testing on whether the "vaccination" prevented the transmission of Covid.

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/bkuPpwaJ5ho

Que the backpedal of "But it reduces mortality!" Like that's how they sold it.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Eirikrautha on October 13, 2022, 10:00:30 PM
Pfizer admits they did no testing on whether the "vaccination" prevented the transmission of Covid.

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/bkuPpwaJ5ho

Que the backpedal of "But it reduces mortality!" Like that's how they sold it.

Every single vaccine mandate was based on a lie.  Thousands of people lost their jobs because of a lie.  There was no evidence that the vaccine prevented transmission, yet all of the politicians claimed otherwise as justification for mandates.  And every social media company would ban you for telling the truth.  This is the greatest medical fraud in human history...
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on October 14, 2022, 06:10:20 AM
I really hope, for the sake of the millions who've been jabbed, that most of the doses were merely saline. That we've only been defrauded by Big Pharma, and they haven't knowingly poisoned huge numbers.

In a related topic, Ivermectin really is a wonder drug when it comes to viral respiratory infections. I take one 12mg tablet at the start of cold and flu symptoms and it circumvents that gradual slide into the grotty bit and shortens the entire course by 12-24 hours. I had swollen glands, streaming nose, sneezes and fatigue on Wednesday and took one in the evening. The following day my nose didn't run and no sneezing and glands were much less swollen. Today I'm better.

Meanwhile the jabbed around me are getting ill for weeks on end, and no sooner than they're better, they're ill again. It's that season for it and their immunity is fucked.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: dkabq on October 14, 2022, 07:46:49 AM
Science EIC Holden Thorpe Condemns DeSantis & Ladapo | Yale Stands for Debate | Misinfo & More
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oN3vobYeWnA
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Zelen on October 15, 2022, 01:46:49 AM
Really telling how quiet all the mask and vax advocates are being now that everything they wanted is shown to be definitively a failure, and in most cases, actually harmful.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on October 15, 2022, 09:04:10 AM
Really telling how quiet all the mask and vax advocates are being now that everything they wanted is shown to be definitively a failure, and in most cases, actually harmful.

Quite. Whither Misty, Reckall et al?

I never did any of that stupid shit and didn't allow myself to be poisoned. I have a good idea of what the future of my health looks like - much the same as before - because I don't have mRNA floating around inside me.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Zelen on October 15, 2022, 10:31:27 AM
Really telling how quiet all the mask and vax advocates are being now that everything they wanted is shown to be definitively a failure, and in most cases, actually harmful.

Quite. Whither Misty, Reckall et al?

I never did any of that stupid shit and didn't allow myself to be poisoned. I have a good idea of what the future of my health looks like - much the same as before - because I don't have mRNA floating around inside me.

I mean, lets not get complacent here. There are still supervillains planning on injecting you via mosquito, by poisoning your food, by blood transfusion, or some other methods that are going to be a lot harder to resist or track.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on October 15, 2022, 01:28:21 PM
I mean, lets not get complacent here. There are still supervillains planning on injecting you via mosquito, by poisoning your food, by blood transfusion, or some other methods that are going to be a lot harder to resist or track.

Viral shedding from the jabbed (who I'm exposed to all the time) is a bigger concern.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Zelen on October 16, 2022, 12:14:53 PM
Very cool! Boston University researchers are taking the Omicron spike protein and adding it to SarsCov-2 (link (https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2022.10.13.512134v1)):

"In K18-hACE2 mice, while Omicron causes mild, non-fatal infection, the Omicron S-carrying virus inflicts severe disease with a mortality rate of 80%."
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ratman_tf on October 16, 2022, 04:37:19 PM
Very cool! Boston University researchers are taking the Omicron spike protein and adding it to SarsCov-2 (link (https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2022.10.13.512134v1)):

"In K18-hACE2 mice, while Omicron causes mild, non-fatal infection, the Omicron S-carrying virus inflicts severe disease with a mortality rate of 80%."

I can't even put my reaction into words...
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on October 17, 2022, 06:27:28 PM
Really telling how quiet all the mask and vax advocates are being now that everything they wanted is shown to be definitively a failure, and in most cases, actually harmful.

Your ongoing insanity in claiming the vax did nothing despite massive scientific evidence it did is not in fact an excuse for you to claim it was "shown to be a definitive failure" because you saw some stupid shit on Twitter which confirmed your bias.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on October 17, 2022, 09:34:12 PM
Really telling how quiet all the mask and vax advocates are being now that everything they wanted is shown to be definitively a failure, and in most cases, actually harmful.

Your ongoing insanity in claiming the vax did nothing despite massive scientific evidence it did is not in fact an excuse for you to claim it was "shown to be a definitive failure" because you saw some stupid shit on Twitter which confirmed your bias.

   Then keep hitting your boosters and keep on trucking.  What is good for you is not good or necessary for me.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on October 17, 2022, 09:56:29 PM
Really telling how quiet all the mask and vax advocates are being now that everything they wanted is shown to be definitively a failure, and in most cases, actually harmful.

Your ongoing insanity in claiming the vax did nothing despite massive scientific evidence it did is not in fact an excuse for you to claim it was "shown to be a definitive failure" because you saw some stupid shit on Twitter which confirmed your bias.

   Then keep hitting your boosters and keep on trucking.  What is good for you is not good or necessary for me.

And that's fine with me. I am not a guy who was advocating anyone should be forced to vax. My named was mentioned so I responded.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on October 17, 2022, 11:01:27 PM
  If you are reading what they said, they did in fact make the point the vax was never tested regarding efficacy regarding spreading the virus, despite being marketed HEAVILY as stopping the spread.  After the fact it became "surviving" the virus, and then advocates made the case you will be killing people in car wrecks because resources are tied up from people in ICU's due to covid.   The attempt to constantly move goalposts as to why people should get vaxxed, including making people get vaxxed to keep their jobs and many people....possibly including any speaking up now....stating that an employer had the right to force a vax on an employee to stay employed despite the vax largely being experimental compared to pretty much every other vax released to the public the past 50 years. 


   So boil it down as tight as you want and say the vax scientifically did "something" if you like, but  that is not exactly a strong case to force it or attempt to lecture people about getting it.  Same with masks.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: jhkim on October 18, 2022, 01:38:20 AM
  If you are reading what they said, they did in fact make the point the vax was never tested regarding efficacy regarding spreading the virus, despite being marketed HEAVILY as stopping the spread.

My understanding is that it's difficult and ethically questionable to directly test transmissibility. With individuals, you have people who volunteer, and you can give them double-blind vaccine or placebo. You then have a list of people to check their viral load and their survival on months later if they are accidentally exposed. There's a defined set of people to test.

To directly check transmission, though, you need to double-blind dose people, wait for them to get infected, and then contact trace everyone who they come into contact with after. Contact tracing can be very difficult in high statistics with thousands of people living real lives, and the people they expose were not volunteers.

This isn't my field, though, so I'm open to correction.

I never got the impression that the vaccine would stop the spread, any more than it was absolute protection. I was told by my doctor and medical friends that it was projected to improve one's odds by a significant factor.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ratman_tf on October 18, 2022, 03:27:59 AM
I never got the impression that the vaccine would stop the spread,

Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: dkabq on October 18, 2022, 05:29:42 AM
Infectious disease expert: All of us being vaccinated stops COVID spread | Ohio State Medical Center
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C2o28wu7As8

Oxford AstraZeneca vaccine prevents spread of COVID from person to person
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xcur3kwCyg

Fauci: If You’re Vaccinated, You’re Safe. If You’re Not, You’re At Risk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OrjMLONm-Bw
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on October 18, 2022, 05:34:53 AM
  If you are reading what they said, they did in fact make the point the vax was never tested regarding efficacy regarding spreading the virus, despite being marketed HEAVILY as stopping the spread.

My understanding is that it's difficult and ethically questionable to directly test transmissibility. With individuals, you have people who volunteer, and you can give them double-blind vaccine or placebo. You then have a list of people to check their viral load and their survival on months later if they are accidentally exposed. There's a defined set of people to test.

To directly check transmission, though, you need to double-blind dose people, wait for them to get infected, and then contact trace everyone who they come into contact with after. Contact tracing can be very difficult in high statistics with thousands of people living real lives, and the people they expose were not volunteers.

This isn't my field, though, so I'm open to correction.

I never got the impression that the vaccine would stop the spread, any more than it was absolute protection. I was told by my doctor and medical friends that it was projected to improve one's odds by a significant factor.

  You never got the impression by the people who are supposed to know, like Fauci constantly saying it would stop spreading?    No one said anything about improving odds until everyone getting jabbed kept getting Covid.  Come one now at least be honest as to how this all happened.  It was mis represented and pushed as such and the story (as well as the CDC's definition of vaccine changed) changed once we all got a chance to see it seemed to do very little to keep anyone from catching it.

   Now I can understand if you personally knew it was not going to stop the spread (this was common sense given speed of mutation)  but you seem to be acting as if you never heard or got an impression from some authority at any point, on the talking box that the vax was there to stop the spread..... weird.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: dkabq on October 18, 2022, 06:12:06 AM
Really telling how quiet all the mask and vax advocates are being now that everything they wanted is shown to be definitively a failure, and in most cases, actually harmful.

Your ongoing insanity in claiming the vax did nothing despite massive scientific evidence it did is not in fact an excuse for you to claim it was "shown to be a definitive failure" because you saw some stupid shit on Twitter which confirmed your bias.

   Then keep hitting your boosters and keep on trucking.  What is good for you is not good or necessary for me.

And that's fine with me. I am not a guy who was advocating anyone should be forced to vax. My named was mentioned so I responded.

I believe that it was Happy Daze who was arguing for vaccine mandates, and that threatening to fire you from your job if you did not get vaccinated was not "using force". But I am too lazy to go back through the covid topics to verify.

Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on October 18, 2022, 07:03:11 AM
Your ongoing insanity in claiming the vax did nothing despite massive scientific evidence it did is not in fact an excuse for you to claim it was "shown to be a definitive failure" because you saw some stupid shit on Twitter which confirmed your bias.

Over 90% of the people dying "with" covid have had two, three or even four jabs. That's not "stupid shit on Twitter", that's from the official statistics produced every week by the UKHSA.

The jabs don't do a fucking thing. Don't stop you dying. Don't prevent infection. Don't stop people spreading the virus. Not that they were ever necessary, because for 99% of people, coronavirus is nothing more than the sniffles.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on October 18, 2022, 09:50:46 AM
  If you are reading what they said, they did in fact make the point the vax was never tested regarding efficacy regarding spreading the virus, despite being marketed HEAVILY as stopping the spread.  After the fact it became "surviving" the virus, and then advocates made the case you will be killing people in car wrecks because resources are tied up from people in ICU's due to covid.   The attempt to constantly move goalposts as to why people should get vaxxed, including making people get vaxxed to keep their jobs and many people....possibly including any speaking up now....stating that an employer had the right to force a vax on an employee to stay employed despite the vax largely being experimental compared to pretty much every other vax released to the public the past 50 years. 


   So boil it down as tight as you want and say the vax scientifically did "something" if you like, but  that is not exactly a strong case to force it or attempt to lecture people about getting it.  Same with masks.

Vax and masks help, and I think that's good enough basis to tell others about whatever help the offer.

I am not in favor of forcing anyone (I just said that in fact).

But I don't give a crap if you don't like lecturing. I hear plenty of lecturing I don't agree with or like. Hell half the posts in this part of the forum are attempts to lecture people. You're going to have to learn to deal with lecturing from others that you disagree with because that's just part of life.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on October 18, 2022, 09:52:19 AM
Your ongoing insanity in claiming the vax did nothing despite massive scientific evidence it did is not in fact an excuse for you to claim it was "shown to be a definitive failure" because you saw some stupid shit on Twitter which confirmed your bias.

Over 90% of the people dying "with" covid have had two, three or even four jabs. That's not "stupid shit on Twitter", that's from the official statistics produced every week by the UKHSA.

The jabs don't do a fucking thing. Don't stop you dying. Don't prevent infection. Don't stop people spreading the virus. Not that they were ever necessary, because for 99% of people, coronavirus is nothing more than the sniffles.

This does not demonstrate the point you think it does, you dumb fuck.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on October 18, 2022, 10:57:43 AM
This does not demonstrate the point you think it does, you dumb fuck.

Says the fucker dumb enough to still believe all this utter horseshit almost three years after it's been proven to be false.

Why am I not dead, despite following none of the guidance, having never been masked or jabbed, and having had covid several times?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on October 18, 2022, 12:09:21 PM
This does not demonstrate the point you think it does, you dumb fuck.

Says the fucker dumb enough to still believe all this utter horseshit almost three years after it's been proven to be false.

Why am I not dead, despite following none of the guidance, having never been masked or jabbed, and having had covid several times?

The fact you cannot work out for yourself the answer to that last question demonstrates to everyone here just how fucking dumb you are. This level of logic is obvious to a 3rd grader but you don't grok it. I mean at this point I have to wonder if I am being overly harsh to someone with special needs and should adjust my tone to be kinder.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on October 18, 2022, 12:21:50 PM
The fact you cannot work out for yourself the answer to that last question demonstrates to everyone here just how fucking dumb you are. This level of logic is obvious to a 3rd grader but you don't grok it. I mean at this point I have to wonder if I am being overly harsh to someone with special needs and should adjust my tone to be kinder.

Bless, the cognitive dissonance must be hard, knowing you fell for it.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on October 18, 2022, 12:59:03 PM
(https://i.ibb.co/3S8RYf1/united-states-rates-of-covid-19-deaths-by-vaccination-status.png)
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on October 18, 2022, 12:59:55 PM
This is just the past several months here in the US
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: jhkim on October 18, 2022, 01:06:14 PM
I never got the impression that the vaccine would stop the spread, any more than it was absolute protection. I was told by my doctor and medical friends that it was projected to improve one's odds by a significant factor.

   Now I can understand if you personally knew it was not going to stop the spread (this was common sense given speed of mutation)  but you seem to be acting as if you never heard or got an impression from some authority at any point, on the talking box that the vax was there to stop the spread..... weird.

As implied by my statement, I formed by my impression from talking with my doctor and medically-trained friends. I don't watch any broadcast television, and while I do watch streaming, I rarely watch politicians at all, and certainly don't watch them for medical advice.

I would agree that starting from Trump and his administration, the vaccines have been oversold - but political speech and public messaging are almost always exaggerated. Take Trump's vaccine announcement, for example:



Quote
Today our nation has achieved a medical miracle. We have delivered a safe and effective vaccine in just nine months. It is one of the greatest scientific accomplishments in history. It will save millions of lives and soon end the pandemic once and for all.
I am thrilled to report that the FDA has authorized the Pfizer vaccine.
Quote
These vaccines are also very safe. American citizens participated in clinical trials that were far larger than normal, and had no serious side effects. The dedicated and independent experts at the FDA meticulously studied the results of the trials, and it has now passed the gold standard of safety.

I certainly didn't just take Trump at his word. I talked to the doctors I knew, which was the basis for my decision - as it is the basis for my medical decisions in general.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on October 18, 2022, 05:16:13 PM
I certainly didn't just take Trump at his word. I talked to the doctors I knew, which was the basis for my decision - as it is the basis for my medical decisions in general.

How much did your "medically trained" friends profit from jabbing people?

Because in spite of covid apparently meaning doctors couldn't see patients face to face for months on end here, they never stopped with the jabs. Which they were paid £12.50 per person, with an additonal £10 for under-18s.

My local surgery devoted itself to doing nothing else for a long period, they were a "regional vaccination centre".
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: jhkim on October 18, 2022, 07:37:02 PM
I certainly didn't just take Trump at his word. I talked to the doctors I knew, which was the basis for my decision - as it is the basis for my medical decisions in general.

How much did your "medically trained" friends profit from jabbing people?

Because in spite of covid apparently meaning doctors couldn't see patients face to face for months on end here, they never stopped with the jabs. Which they were paid £12.50 per person, with an additonal £10 for under-18s.

Both my parents are medical doctors (retired pediatrician and psychiatrist), and I have a sister with a PhD in genetics. All of them got themselves vaccinated, and had no involvement in giving vaccination to anyone else. I also have a few friends who are medical doctors as well whom I trust, who were uninvolved in my getting a vaccination, at least.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on October 18, 2022, 10:00:34 PM
I certainly didn't just take Trump at his word. I talked to the doctors I knew, which was the basis for my decision - as it is the basis for my medical decisions in general.

How much did your "medically trained" friends profit from jabbing people?

Because in spite of covid apparently meaning doctors couldn't see patients face to face for months on end here, they never stopped with the jabs. Which they were paid £12.50 per person, with an additonal £10 for under-18s.

My local surgery devoted itself to doing nothing else for a long period, they were a "regional vaccination centre".

You seriously think nearly every doctor on the planet betrayed their oath and ethics over !2.50 a shot? What, like doctors were so hurting for income? You really are the dumbest fuck.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ratman_tf on October 19, 2022, 12:34:01 AM

The C.D.C. Isn’t Publishing Large Portions of the Covid Data It Collects
The agency has withheld critical data on boosters, hospitalizations and, until recently, wastewater analyses.


https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/20/health/covid-cdc-data.html
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ratman_tf on October 19, 2022, 12:42:47 AM
I never got the impression that the vaccine would stop the spread, any more than it was absolute protection. I was told by my doctor and medical friends that it was projected to improve one's odds by a significant factor.

   Now I can understand if you personally knew it was not going to stop the spread (this was common sense given speed of mutation)  but you seem to be acting as if you never heard or got an impression from some authority at any point, on the talking box that the vax was there to stop the spread..... weird.

As implied by my statement, I formed by my impression from talking with my doctor and medically-trained friends. I don't watch any broadcast television, and while I do watch streaming, I rarely watch politicians at all, and certainly don't watch them for medical advice.

Considering Dr Fauci, who is an "expert" on infectious diseases and advisor to the President of the United States on such, was one of the experts making exaggerted and sometimes false claims about the vaccines, I feel pretty safe saying that the entire system was compromised in pursuit of supporting a narrative.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on October 19, 2022, 05:27:26 AM
You seriously think nearly every doctor on the planet betrayed their oath and ethics over !2.50 a shot? What, like doctors were so hurting for income? You really are the dumbest fuck.

The dumb cunt who believes the narrative and allowed himself to be poisoned still thinks medical ethics exist. Bravo, you deserve everything you've got coming.

I judge by their actual behaviour, in the way they leapt at the chance to make an extra buck. I know of a formerly-retired GP who un-retired himself just to get on the jabbination bandwagon, because it's so lucrative.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on October 19, 2022, 05:28:36 AM
Both my parents are medical doctors (retired pediatrician and psychiatrist), and I have a sister with a PhD in genetics. All of them got themselves vaccinated, and had no involvement in giving vaccination to anyone else. I also have a few friends who are medical doctors as well whom I trust, who were uninvolved in my getting a vaccination, at least.

Oh dear.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on October 19, 2022, 08:19:20 AM
  If you are reading what they said, they did in fact make the point the vax was never tested regarding efficacy regarding spreading the virus, despite being marketed HEAVILY as stopping the spread.  After the fact it became "surviving" the virus, and then advocates made the case you will be killing people in car wrecks because resources are tied up from people in ICU's due to covid.   The attempt to constantly move goalposts as to why people should get vaxxed, including making people get vaxxed to keep their jobs and many people....possibly including any speaking up now....stating that an employer had the right to force a vax on an employee to stay employed despite the vax largely being experimental compared to pretty much every other vax released to the public the past 50 years. 


   So boil it down as tight as you want and say the vax scientifically did "something" if you like, but  that is not exactly a strong case to force it or attempt to lecture people about getting it.  Same with masks.

Vax and masks help, and I think that's good enough basis to tell others about whatever help the offer.

I am not in favor of forcing anyone (I just said that in fact).

But I don't give a crap if you don't like lecturing. I hear plenty of lecturing I don't agree with or like. Hell half the posts in this part of the forum are attempts to lecture people. You're going to have to learn to deal with lecturing from others that you disagree with because that's just part of life.

  I dont much give a crap about what you like.  You did make points about employers should be able to make a vax a condition of employment (that is a mandate given the financial situation many people put themselves in, not their employers fault but it is a reality) and you went on and on about masks that medical experts finally said did nothing (after saying they did alot after of course saying they did not help to prevent people from hording them).  So read it, or do not.  You have plenty of company in getting hackles up about other people spouting what is bullshit.   

   You hopped on your soapbox and went on and on about having an obligation to others to wear masks and get vaxxed and that was complete bullshit.  So if it makes your breath stink to eat the shit you were spouting....tough.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Zelen on October 19, 2022, 01:23:32 PM
(https://media.giphy.com/media/f8b3klrYiFQAp4Ijk0/giphy-downsized.gif)

Me resting easy with the mute button for the cockroaches.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on October 19, 2022, 06:24:59 PM
You seriously think nearly every doctor on the planet betrayed their oath and ethics over !2.50 a shot? What, like doctors were so hurting for income? You really are the dumbest fuck.

The dumb cunt who believes the narrative and allowed himself to be poisoned still thinks medical ethics exist. Bravo, you deserve everything you've got coming.

I judge by their actual behaviour, in the way they leapt at the chance to make an extra buck. I know of a formerly-retired GP who un-retired himself just to get on the jabbination bandwagon, because it's so lucrative.

No, Neanderthal boy, you're not claiming there are some bad apples out there. You're literally accusing nearly every doctor on the planet of selling themselves out for 12.50 a shot. All of them. You're not even considering the possibility that the huge swatch of doctors administering the vaccines genuinely believe they help reduce deaths. You go right to incredibly huge worldwide conspiracy by almost every doctor on the planet to make 12.50 a shot (which isn't very much - I have no idea why you think that sum of money is enough to lure already upper class doctors into unethical behavior) over something they think isn't effective or is even harmful.

Because you're a fucking idiot.

To be even more clear - many doctors in the U.S. already make more than 12.50 per 5 minutes not administering vaccines. I know in the UK doctors are paid shit by your NHS relative to doctors here, but that sum is not sufficient to lure doctors into breaking their oaths. It's frankly not enough to get them to do it even if they believe in the vaccine, if it were purely about money. Some would be LOSING money doing that. A general practitioner doctor out here in Los Angeles can make $320,000 a year for a 40 hour work week. Work that one out for yourself and you will find just doing vaccines all day would not be more profitable for them.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: KindaMeh on October 19, 2022, 08:31:15 PM
In all fairness it is hard to argue that the shots do nothing. They aren’t amazing at preventing infection, especially for some of the newer strains, but they do it. More to the point statistics both as regards lab studies and IRL treatment numbers back the claim that they sizably reduce hospitalization rates and COVID death rates among the vaccinated. That said, I can see where doctors might recommend them on that basis. Admittedly too there was no proof of side effects that outweighed the decrease in said rates. I sometimes do wonder though whether me having gotten the  jab will have health downsides in the long run, since you can only get so far with nonhuman testing. And although MRNA treatments more generally have been around about 80 years, this particular one is still young so to speak. I think the doctors made a reasonable decision to recommend given the information they had. A medic friend of mine got one on the basis that although he didn’t have a high likelihood to  need it given his age and health brackets, it would make life easier and open doors with respect to doing stuff. Still, however unlikely, they could all  be wrong, and folks should have the right to choose. And not be demonized for making decisions for themselves and for their families in good faith.

More to the point, I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, it’s being used for political discrimination. Same reason why I’m against mask mandates despite stuff from the mouth being the main way most COVID spreads, because the issue was politicized to the point where you’re basically just going after Republicans on the basis of their politics. I think it’s being an excuse to do just that.

The unvaccinated allegedly only hurt other unvaccinated anyway, so it’s their own choice. And in many cases such as the youth, it’s questionable whether trying to give folks the jab even improves overall societal outcomes noticeably, as opposed to merely sowing division with no real and sizable benefit to counterbalance this. And nobody forced us to wear masks when respiratory diseases more generally, which had contractions that went down like 50% when folks masked all the time towards the beginning of that whole thing, were killing numbers similar to COVID now. To say nothing of how “emergency powers” were used in some jurisdictions for 2+ years. Which reeks to me of a failure in our democratic systems.

Also, even if they’re right, medical professionals can’t tell us how to make policy. They can inform us on medical matters, but ultimately it’s a question of values and trade-offs whether a state should stay open or not. Part of the reason why CDC policy shifts so often is because there is not and never will be a normative outcome produced purely by positive science. They aren’t moral philosophers, theologians, social “scientists”, psychologists, and economists all in one. Hell, even if they were, we’re a democracy, not a technocracy ruled by philosopher kings.

I also want to point out that more than 13 states were worse in deaths per capita than Florida, and they kept everything open and the like, doing better economically than they would have had they listened to the prevailing wisdom of the times. At little apparent cost to themselves, given the death rate in regards to total population stands at less than .4%.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: dkabq on October 20, 2022, 06:47:16 AM
Vaccines Never Prevented the Transmission of COVID
https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/science/articles/vaccines-never-prevented-transmission-covid-alex-gutentag

During the Dec. 10, 2020, Food and Drug Administration (FDA) meeting when the first mRNA vaccines were authorized, FDA adviser Dr. Patrick Moore stated, “Pfizer has presented no evidence in its data today that the vaccine has any effect on virus carriage or shedding, which is the fundamental basis for herd immunity.” Despite the data presented for individual efficacy, he continued, “we really, as of right now, do not have any evidence that it will have an impact, social-wide, on the epidemic.” The FDA EUA press release from December 2020 also confirms that there was no “evidence that the vaccine prevents transmission of SARS-COV-2 from person to person.”

Simply put, the reason many people believed the vaccines stopped transmission was because government officials and media outlets across the Western world were either careless with their words or did not tell the truth. In 2021, for instance, Director of the Centers for Disease Control (CDC) Rochelle Walensky claimed that vaccinated people “do not carry the virus,” and Dr. Anthony Fauci said they would become “dead ends” for the virus. Any speculation that the vaccines significantly reduced transmission was based on limited results from independent studies and the false assumption that the vaccine would prevent infection. Without adequate evidence, vaccination campaigns called on people to get vaccinated not just for their own protection, but to help “protect others” and “save lives.”
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: dkabq on October 20, 2022, 07:10:11 AM
(https://i.ibb.co/3S8RYf1/united-states-rates-of-covid-19-deaths-by-vaccination-status.png)

Interesting, but it begs the question of what confounding factors could be contributing to the higher death rate in the unvaccinated? Are they older? Poorer? In worse health? Is there a geographic factor? Previously had covid? I also have to wonder if the deaths are deaths from covid or with covid?

Unfortunately you can't get at the age question from the data available at that site as they only differentiate by all-ages, 50-64, and 65+, at least for the US data. The Swiss data has a full span of age ranges. Clicking through them finds that while there is a trend for higher unvaccinated death rates, the gap between them and the vaccinated shrinks, as does the absolute magnitude of the death rates.
https://ourworldindata.org/covid-deaths-by-vaccination

Moreover, that data does not consider vaccination risks, so it cannot address the question of does the reduction in death from getting vaccinated outweigh the vaccine risks.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: dkabq on October 20, 2022, 07:32:15 AM
Subclinical Myocarditis - NEW Report from Switzerland - Vital Findings
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vveMHtVk_mY
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on October 20, 2022, 07:42:45 AM
(https://i.ibb.co/3S8RYf1/united-states-rates-of-covid-19-deaths-by-vaccination-status.png)

Interesting, but it begs the question of what confounding factors could be contributing to the higher death rate in the unvaccinated? Are they older? Poorer? In worse health? Is there a geographic factor? Previously had covid? I also have to wonder if the deaths are deaths from covid or with covid?

Unfortunately you can't get at the age question from the data available at that site as they only differentiate by all-ages, 50-64, and 65+, at least for the US data. The Swiss data has a full span of age ranges. Clicking through them finds that while there is a trend for higher unvaccinated death rates, the gap between them and the vaccinated shrinks, as does the absolute magnitude of the death rates.
https://ourworldindata.org/covid-deaths-by-vaccination

Moreover, that data does not consider vaccination risks, so it cannot address the question of does the reduction in death from getting vaccinated outweigh the vaccine risks.

The secret is in the definition. Anyone who had a jab within two weeks of death is called "unvaccinated", rather than being included in the "primary vaccination" group. It's wheeze after sleight of hand after shoddy dodge with everything relating to coronabollocks.

All necessary to uphold the fiction that the sniffles is a deadly disease that threatens us all. Rather than the usual seasonal bugs that only carry off the vulnerable. Before mRNA fucked up healthy people's immune systems, that is.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ghostmaker on October 20, 2022, 08:05:47 AM
The whole argument about vaccination involves herd immunity; effectively 'fencing' a pathogen in so that it can't be transmitted.

If the vaccine does not, in fact, prevent transmission then that argument flies right out the window.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Horace on October 20, 2022, 09:07:38 AM
Who here watches Dr. John Campbell on YouTube? He has been going over a lot of Covid-related studies lately and picking them apart. He's constrained by YouTube's benevolent misinformation policies, of course, so all he can do is look at the camera to convey his true thoughts, but what a look he gives when he reads some of these steaming piles of completely fair and unbiased scientific reports.

Most recently he featured a Scottish study on a worrying rise in neo-natal deaths where the authors decided not to divulge the mothers' vaccination status for fear that it might "harm people's confidence in the vaccine." Of course, there was no "public health benefit" to disclosing this information. I'm glad we have rational and completely well-meaning people like this to conduct our most important research and lead our highest institutes. All hail the New World Order!
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: KindaMeh on October 20, 2022, 11:08:20 AM
Vaccines Never Prevented the Transmission of COVID
https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/science/articles/vaccines-never-prevented-transmission-covid-alex-gutentag

During the Dec. 10, 2020, Food and Drug Administration (FDA) meeting when the first mRNA vaccines were authorized, FDA adviser Dr. Patrick Moore stated, “Pfizer has presented no evidence in its data today that the vaccine has any effect on virus carriage or shedding, which is the fundamental basis for herd immunity.” Despite the data presented for individual efficacy, he continued, “we really, as of right now, do not have any evidence that it will have an impact, social-wide, on the epidemic.” The FDA EUA press release from December 2020 also confirms that there was no “evidence that the vaccine prevents transmission of SARS-COV-2 from person to person.”

Simply put, the reason many people believed the vaccines stopped transmission was because government officials and media outlets across the Western world were either careless with their words or did not tell the truth. In 2021, for instance, Director of the Centers for Disease Control (CDC) Rochelle Walensky claimed that vaccinated people “do not carry the virus,” and Dr. Anthony Fauci said they would become “dead ends” for the virus. Any speculation that the vaccines significantly reduced transmission was based on limited results from independent studies and the false assumption that the vaccine would prevent infection. Without adequate evidence, vaccination campaigns called on people to get vaccinated not just for their own protection, but to help “protect others” and “save lives.”

It’s certainly not awe-inspiring. Though studies, especially non-Pfizer ordered studies, have been done since then on vaccination reducing transmission rates, (ex: I remember one right when Delta was coming out as a bigger thing that had even CBS news stating a decreased efficacy in prevention.) they broadly found reduced efficacy with each mutation. https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejmoa2116597 and https://www.bmj.com/content/376/bmj.o298 for example.

Goes to show that killing the virus with herd immunity was never really a legit plan unless either everyone were to be vaccinated immediately and forced to squirrel themselves away like lepers for a bit, or everyone was to be unvaccinated and forced to mingle, thereby getting temporary health edge through exposure, and then again forcing the global economy to grind to a screeching halt through voluntary isolation even were it possible to coordinate everyone in such a weird maneuver. Zero COVID policies on the national level do not work long term anyway because of global factors, and as shown in China, even the most authoritarian overreactions will not stop it through unilateral action by a single country.

I will however acknowledge Trump was right about it having health benefits relative to known side effects. The caveat being the term known, but still admittedly an edge that has yet to be disproven. Still, even there it demonstrably varies what the edge is somewhat by age and preexisting conditions as noted. Younger folks with fewer conditions to weaken them to COVID’s impact are less effected, go figure. Even the CDC has had to acknowledge that.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on October 20, 2022, 03:55:06 PM
The whole argument about vaccination involves herd immunity; effectively 'fencing' a pathogen in so that it can't be transmitted.

If the vaccine does not, in fact, prevent transmission then that argument flies right out the window.


Who cares about arguments? Does it reduce deaths or not? Does it reduce hospitalizations or not? If it does reduce deaths and hospitalizations, then it's doing something good. If it doesn't prevent illness but it does reduce hospitalizations and deaths, then it's doing something good.

I will never understand the "If it's not perfect then it's nothing" mentality. We've seen it throughout covid (if masks don't prevent infection then they do nothing) but we've seen it in other parts of society too. It's a baffling perspective which doesn't match reality about almost anything in life. Reducing harms is a valuable thing, right? Whether it's recycling or eating less meat or watering lawns less or being kinder more often or speeding less or whatever it is in life, harm reduction is a valuable thing even if it's not zero harm.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ratman_tf on October 20, 2022, 04:14:44 PM
Who here watches Dr. John Campbell on YouTube? He has been going over a lot of Covid-related studies lately and picking them apart. He's constrained by YouTube's benevolent misinformation policies, of course, so all he can do is look at the camera to convey his true thoughts, but what a look he gives when he reads some of these steaming piles of completely fair and unbiased scientific reports.

Most recently he featured a Scottish study on a worrying rise in neo-natal deaths where the authors decided not to divulge the mothers' vaccination status for fear that it might "harm people's confidence in the vaccine." Of course, there was no "public health benefit" to disclosing this information. I'm glad we have rational and completely well-meaning people like this to conduct our most important research and lead our highest institutes. All hail the New World Order!

I do. I started watching him when Covid began, got a bit frustrated that he seemed to be parroting a lot of misinformation, and now I'm just sad that a lot of our concerns seem to be valid.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ratman_tf on October 20, 2022, 04:16:03 PM
The whole argument about vaccination involves herd immunity; effectively 'fencing' a pathogen in so that it can't be transmitted.

If the vaccine does not, in fact, prevent transmission then that argument flies right out the window.


Who cares about arguments? Does it reduce deaths or not? Does it reduce hospitalizations or not? If it does reduce deaths and hospitalizations, then it's doing something good. If it doesn't prevent illness but it does reduce hospitalizations and deaths, then it's doing something good.

What are the tradeoffs?  If the vaccines or masks do more harm than they prevent, then we have a problem.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: KindaMeh on October 20, 2022, 04:44:03 PM
The whole argument about vaccination involves herd immunity; effectively 'fencing' a pathogen in so that it can't be transmitted.

If the vaccine does not, in fact, prevent transmission then that argument flies right out the window.


Who cares about arguments? Does it reduce deaths or not? Does it reduce hospitalizations or not? If it does reduce deaths and hospitalizations, then it's doing something good. If it doesn't prevent illness but it does reduce hospitalizations and deaths, then it's doing something good.

I will never understand the "If it's not perfect then it's nothing" mentality. We've seen it throughout covid (if masks don't prevent infection then they do nothing) but we've seen it in other parts of society too. It's a baffling perspective which doesn't match reality about almost anything in life. Reducing harms is a valuable thing, right? Whether it's recycling or eating less meat or watering lawns less or being kinder more often or speeding less or whatever it is in life, harm reduction is a valuable thing even if it's not zero harm.

First, let me note that I agree that as things stand the balance of evidence tilts towards voluntary vaccines being helpful within society. I don't think Trump was originally wrong to push for their availability, for instance. Though again, that's only with currently known information, and vaccines can do harm as well albeit in less statistically powerful impacts, so if the current balance of evidence changes over the next several decades I'd probably revise my position.

That said, I still care about arguments beyond just whether it helps the individual within the context of arguing for state intervention. Because firstly it can do some harm and is less effective within certain demographics of youth and health with particular risk factors, and though that has mostly been accounted for when deciding whether it may be administered to said demographics, that does not mean members of said demographics do not have the right to assess the risks themselves as well. I don't think vaccines or masks do more harm than they prevent when voluntary, but it's still political discrimination at this point to require them so that you can access public service, necessary goods and services, or even unnecessary goods and services when the issue has been politicized to the degree it has been. It tears society apart, which isn't nothing.

Also, what I think doesn't universally represent what those acting in what they believe are their own best interests, and the best interests for their families may be with respect to masking and vaccination. Even were I more informed, that wouldn't give people like me the right to decide against letting them choose unless we could be sure that beyond any doubt this would save America from an actual catastrophe outweighing the societal strife and economic damage a mandate many wish to avoid complying with would require. Even then, it would need to be Congress, not a CDC with questionable authority according to the courts, doing this as representatives of America's will. Not authoritarian technocracy. Because if people ignore democratic norms and structures to enact what they want over what is legal and the will of the people, democracy loses.

 And if respiratory disease fatalities comparable to COVID deaths currently were not reason enough for a mask mandate pre-covid, why should they be post-covid? If the vaccinated have almost 20x less death rates from certain strains of covid, and the base rate was like 1% counting those who don't test or report, then why should .05% of the limited number who contract it dictate the lives, economy and liberties of the other 99.95% of society when they probably would've died to plenty of other easily transmissible illnesses anyway? Policymaking is normative in nature, not based solely on the conclusions of positive science, by definition.

So just knowing that some harm will be prevented, or that on average it will be good for society health-wise, is not enough in and of itself enough to dictate policy, unless the harms of intervention and impacts on non-health factors are also factored in. A policy decision from which also requires calculation within a framework that is not values neutral or "scientifically" constructed.  Part of what's great about a constitutional democracy is that it allows for net values to be weighed, all while protecting core liberties from the tyranny of the majority. So I feel it telling, for instance, that most mandates where I currently reside were enforced not by the local legislature but by potential overreach in emergency powers.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: KindaMeh on October 20, 2022, 05:06:38 PM
To be clear, if I had to give a friend a recommendation on whether to take a vaccine, I'd probably direct them to health professionals I know on a personal level and trust, and from what I know they'd say go for it. Given what I currently know I'd also say go for it.

I'd say it makes sense to wear a mask if you're feeling sick with a respiratory disease more generally, likewise. Blow your nose into a handkerchief, wash your hands properly after going to the restroom, yada yada.  Maybe even wear a mask if you're visiting somebody especially vulnerable to diseases and you think you MIGHT have one.

But that's different from supporting what the government and many state and local governments have been attempting. For many of the reasons listed in my post above, I do not support such mandates and discriminations. Especially when I factor in how our own more local freedom of religion was more or less stomped on, alongside freedom of assembly, save in such instances as it supported a woke cause the demonstrations for which led to property damage. Even as education became remote and less effective, social isolation and mental health disorders went on the rise, and cetera. I also saw the death of a state economy heavily dependent on tourism, entertainment and out of state spending, the collapse of a strong local performance and in-person arts culture, and more. Unemployment jumped ridiculously high, and we still haven't bounced back fully because a lot of businesses died even with rampant national and local stimulus spending. It wasn't just the virus. Key business sectors for our state and locality were legally not allowed to open because of rules about the number of people in a room or the closing of "non-essential" sectors like religion. While the wearing of masks and vaccine requirements in combination chomped at business visitor numbers even when things "opened up" a bit more.

I think if more people got vaccinated and wore masks it would be good for overall health a smidge, and probably boost our economy by re-enfranchising those people relative to being allowed in certain public spaces. But there's a very real set of reasons why I would never mandate it, and hate that the latter part unrelated to health is even a factor, thanks to government BS.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on October 20, 2022, 05:13:42 PM
The whole argument about vaccination involves herd immunity; effectively 'fencing' a pathogen in so that it can't be transmitted.

If the vaccine does not, in fact, prevent transmission then that argument flies right out the window.


Who cares about arguments? Does it reduce deaths or not? Does it reduce hospitalizations or not? If it does reduce deaths and hospitalizations, then it's doing something good. If it doesn't prevent illness but it does reduce hospitalizations and deaths, then it's doing something good.

What are the tradeoffs?  If the vaccines or masks do more harm than they prevent, then we have a problem.

Are you seeing high rates of hospitalizations and deaths from masks and vaccines which exceed the savings in hospitalizations and deaths we're getting from masks and vaccines? This is standard cost benefit analysis. 

You don't want a mask or vaccine, I say OK that's your decision. But from the evidence I have seen, masks and vaccines save more lives than they take, and save more hospitalizations than they cause.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: KindaMeh on October 20, 2022, 05:20:48 PM
The whole argument about vaccination involves herd immunity; effectively 'fencing' a pathogen in so that it can't be transmitted.

If the vaccine does not, in fact, prevent transmission then that argument flies right out the window.


Who cares about arguments? Does it reduce deaths or not? Does it reduce hospitalizations or not? If it does reduce deaths and hospitalizations, then it's doing something good. If it doesn't prevent illness but it does reduce hospitalizations and deaths, then it's doing something good.

What are the tradeoffs?  If the vaccines or masks do more harm than they prevent, then we have a problem.

Are you seeing high rates of hospitalizations and deaths from masks and vaccines which exceed the savings in hospitalizations and deaths we're getting from masks and vaccines? This is standard cost benefit analysis. 

You don't want a mask or vaccine, I say OK that's your decision. But from the evidence I have seen, masks and vaccines save more lives than they take, and save more hospitalizations than they cause.

Okay, from that second sentence I may have misinterpreted your earlier statement in my response, then. I apologize for that. I will also acknowledge that early on in the virus especially, hospital capacities were a real factor behind a lot of the concern. As noted earlier, I think if people want to get vaccinated that's great. I just also think there's perhaps a moral obligation to vocally stand against many if not most of the government actions and mandates that have come into play over the past two years. And the societal villainization in parts of our nation of those who make different health choices in good faith. Hence me saying what I did, and supporting the point of view that I do.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: dkabq on October 20, 2022, 05:35:57 PM
The whole argument about vaccination involves herd immunity; effectively 'fencing' a pathogen in so that it can't be transmitted.

If the vaccine does not, in fact, prevent transmission then that argument flies right out the window.


Who cares about arguments? Does it reduce deaths or not? Does it reduce hospitalizations or not? If it does reduce deaths and hospitalizations, then it's doing something good. If it doesn't prevent illness but it does reduce hospitalizations and deaths, then it's doing something good.

What are the tradeoffs?  If the vaccines or masks do more harm than they prevent, then we have a problem.

Are you seeing high rates of hospitalizations and deaths from masks and vaccines which exceed the savings in hospitalizations and deaths we're getting from masks and vaccines? This is standard cost benefit analysis. 

You don't want a mask or vaccine, I say OK that's your decision. But from the evidence I have seen, masks and vaccines save more lives than they take, and save more hospitalizations than they cause.

The herd immunity argument matters because that was part of the lie that forcing people to get vaccinated would result in herd immunity due to the vaccine having a high efficacy of stopping transmission (a lie).

There is no evidence that cloth or surgical masks "save lives" or "save hospitalizations".

The data seem to indicate that the vaccine reduces covid severity/death in the old and/or people with comorbitities. However, there are no vaccine cost/benefit studies.

I am in agreement with you that people should be free to wear/not wear a mask and/or get/not get the vaccine.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: dkabq on October 20, 2022, 05:40:15 PM
The whole argument about vaccination involves herd immunity; effectively 'fencing' a pathogen in so that it can't be transmitted.

If the vaccine does not, in fact, prevent transmission then that argument flies right out the window.


Who cares about arguments? Does it reduce deaths or not? Does it reduce hospitalizations or not? If it does reduce deaths and hospitalizations, then it's doing something good. If it doesn't prevent illness but it does reduce hospitalizations and deaths, then it's doing something good.

What are the tradeoffs?  If the vaccines or masks do more harm than they prevent, then we have a problem.

Are you seeing high rates of hospitalizations and deaths from masks and vaccines which exceed the savings in hospitalizations and deaths we're getting from masks and vaccines? This is standard cost benefit analysis. 

You don't want a mask or vaccine, I say OK that's your decision. But from the evidence I have seen, masks and vaccines save more lives than they take, and save more hospitalizations than they cause.

Okay, from that second sentence I may have misinterpreted your earlier statement in my response, then. I apologize for that. I will also acknowledge that early on in the virus especially, hospital capacities were a real factor behind a lot of the concern. As noted earlier, I think if people want to get vaccinated that's great. I just also think there's perhaps a moral obligation to vocally stand against many if not most of the government actions and mandates that have come into play over the past two years. And the societal villainization in parts of our nation of those who make different health choices in good faith. Hence me saying what I did, and supporting the point of view that I do.

FWIW, hospital capacities are always an issue. I have a colleague whose wife works at a local hospital. They consistently bump up against their IC and total beds capacity regardless of covid.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Zelen on October 20, 2022, 09:42:49 PM
We can fairly safely say that the masks and lockdowns had a negative impact, psychologically, economically, and on health overall.

As dkalb points out, no one has actually run any real studies demonstrating the tradeoffs of the particular injections. I've always assumed that there was some health benefit for at-risk people, but we never knew the risks of the injections (and still don't, but evidence is gradually coming to light). However, we also know the majority of people aren't at any meaningful level of risk. Driving to work, or going up and down staircases in your home are more dangerous.

Another confounding factor in this analsysis is that we know that the major actors in this play (Pfizer, Moderna, Fauci, CDC/FDA/NIH) are simply brazen liars. They've lied repeatedly & continuously. Some of the propaganda these outlets put out would make Soviets blush. We had to put up with 2 years of lies about masks that everyone who read the literature knew would do nothing. Even today in certain metro areas if you try to use any govt. service you'll get harassed to put on a mask, it's fucking ridiculous.

It's not reasonable to trust these people or entities after all of the lies they told. Anyone who actually read the Pfizer trial knew that their testing didn't demonstrate reduction of transmission, so the recent revelations are only shocking insofar as how many people were eager to lie, and repeat lies, without any evidence.

We also know that drug companies manipulated the trials in numerous ways, including removing participants, ending the trial prematurely, lying about unfavorable data and covering up health events that might've reflected negatively on their product. Why would we trust them to report numbers accurately when we've already seen them lying about the same numbers? Similar manipulations plague basically all of the injection data, even that not directly sponsored by Pharma companies, because the monetary, interpersonal, and political pressure has been so severe.

I think we can generously assume some benefit for the elderly & infirm, but this is difficult to quantify and therefore recommend. A lot of people like to suggest extremely high efficacy of the injections, say 80% or more, but we know those estimates are not realistic because it implies deaths during the 2021 to 2023 period would have been dramatically higher without the injections. But we know that didn't happen because many countries either had low access to these injections, or low population rates taking them. We didn't see extreme death spikes in these regions. In fact we see more excess deaths when less dangerous variants of the Sars-Cov-2 virus were predominant, but not deaths from Covid-19. That's suggestive of something else going on.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on October 21, 2022, 01:39:32 AM
We can fairly safely say that the masks and lockdowns had a negative impact, psychologically, economically, and on health overall.

We were not discussing lockdowns. Entirely different topic from masks and vaccines.

I do not think masks had that big a negative impact psychologically, economically, or on health overall. Overall they were pretty minor in impact. A lot of whining bitching moaning and complaining but not really a big deal in nearly as meaningful a way as lockdowns or the level of bitching over them.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on October 21, 2022, 05:00:17 AM

Goes to show that killing the virus with herd immunity was never really a legit plan unless either everyone were to be vaccinated immediately and forced to squirrel themselves away like lepers for a bit, or everyone was to be unvaccinated and forced to mingle, thereby getting temporary health edge through exposure, and then again forcing the global economy to grind to a screeching halt through voluntary isolation even were it possible to coordinate everyone in such a weird maneuver. Zero COVID policies on the national level do not work long term anyway because of global factors, and as shown in China, even the most authoritarian overreactions will not stop it through unilateral action by a single country.

Zero covid was, and is, utter bollocks and completely unnecessary for a virus as trivial as coronavirus. There never needed to be "a plan" or any change from the way past winter respiratory viruses were dealth with.

Cross immunity from other coronaviruses, not to mention prior immunity for anyone who managed to get SARS-COV-1 back in 2003 applies.

Didn't need to vaccinate anyone, didn't have to "force people to mingle", should have just left everyone to get on with it. Like Sweden did.

The whole argument about vaccination involves herd immunity; effectively 'fencing' a pathogen in so that it can't be transmitted.

If the vaccine does not, in fact, prevent transmission then that argument flies right out the window.

Covid jabs aren't vaccines, they're therapeutics. They don't prevent infection or reduce viral load. Ergo, not vaccines, by the pre-2020 definition.

The fact that they had to change the definition of a "vaccine" is pretty telling.

Who here watches Dr. John Campbell on YouTube? He has been going over a lot of Covid-related studies lately and picking them apart. He's constrained by YouTube's benevolent misinformation policies, of course, so all he can do is look at the camera to convey his true thoughts, but what a look he gives when he reads some of these steaming piles of completely fair and unbiased scientific reports.

Most recently he featured a Scottish study on a worrying rise in neo-natal deaths where the authors decided not to divulge the mothers' vaccination status for fear that it might "harm people's confidence in the vaccine." Of course, there was no "public health benefit" to disclosing this information. I'm glad we have rational and completely well-meaning people like this to conduct our most important research and lead our highest institutes. All hail the New World Order!

Nurse John very carefully tiptoes the line to avoid being demonetised on YouTube. But even he is finally waking up to just how fucked up it all is.

The unvaccinated allegedly only hurt other unvaccinated anyway, so it’s their own choice.

What the fuck are you talking about? The risk to myself and other people is unchanged from 2019 when everyone was "unvaccinated".

More to the point, the jabs do fuck all to protect you, and worse still if you've had an mRNA jab (Pfizer or Moderna) your sterilising immune system no longer works, and it's likely prior immunity has been stripped away, too. That's why the sudden resurgence of shingles amongst people who'd once had immunity because they had chicken pox as children.

This is the critical thing, for me as someone "unvaccinated", nothing has changed. But everyone who succumbed to the fear porn and allowed themselves to be experimented on, well, the jury is out.

Another confounding factor in this analsysis is that we know that the major actors in this play (Pfizer, Moderna, Fauci, CDC/FDA/NIH) are simply brazen liars. They've lied repeatedly & continuously. Some of the propaganda these outlets put out would make Soviets blush. We had to put up with 2 years of lies about masks that everyone who read the literature knew would do nothing. Even today in certain metro areas if you try to use any govt. service you'll get harassed to put on a mask, it's fucking ridiculous.

It's not reasonable to trust these people or entities after all of the lies they told. Anyone who actually read the Pfizer trial knew that their testing didn't demonstrate reduction of transmission, so the recent revelations are only shocking insofar as how many people were eager to lie, and repeat lies, without any evidence.

We also know that drug companies manipulated the trials in numerous ways, including removing participants, ending the trial prematurely, lying about unfavorable data and covering up health events that might've reflected negatively on their product. Why would we trust them to report numbers accurately when we've already seen them lying about the same numbers? Similar manipulations plague basically all of the injection data, even that not directly sponsored by Pharma companies, because the monetary, interpersonal, and political pressure has been so severe.

In a shocking outbreak of what might even be genuine accountability, the European Public Prosecutor's Office is investigating why the European Commission (headed by Ursula von der Leyen) bought ten doses per person of Pfizer's vaccine: https://www.eppo.europa.eu/en/news/ongoing-eppo-investigation-acquisition-covid-19-vaccines-eu

Worth noting that von der Lying is best buds with Alfred Bourla, Pfizer's CEO. But I'm sure nothing improper took place. The whole thing is rotten from top to bottom, it's been nothing more than a transfer of public money into Big Pharma's coffers.


FWIW, hospital capacities are always an issue. I have a colleague whose wife works at a local hospital. They consistently bump up against their IC and total beds capacity regardless of covid.

Yep, every single winter, for at least the last 20 years, the NHS is "in crisis". And of course the solution is always yet more money. Even though it's budget has tripled in the last 30 years.

We were not discussing lockdowns. Entirely different topic from masks and vaccines.

I do not think masks had that big a negative impact psychologically, economically, or on health overall. Overall they were pretty minor in impact. A lot of whining bitching moaning and complaining but not really a big deal in nearly as meaningful a way as lockdowns or the level of bitching over them.

Developmental delays in children born since lockdowns and muzzles says otherwise. Not to mention all the mentally ill people who've been driven even further into their psychoses by all the hyped up OCD shit.

So fuck what you think, you're wrong. But keep feeding that delusion of yours that any of this bullshit was justified.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: KindaMeh on October 21, 2022, 12:04:23 PM

Goes to show that killing the virus with herd immunity was never really a legit plan unless either everyone were to be vaccinated immediately and forced to squirrel themselves away like lepers for a bit, or everyone was to be unvaccinated and forced to mingle, thereby getting temporary health edge through exposure, and then again forcing the global economy to grind to a screeching halt through voluntary isolation even were it possible to coordinate everyone in such a weird maneuver. Zero COVID policies on the national level do not work long term anyway because of global factors, and as shown in China, even the most authoritarian overreactions will not stop it through unilateral action by a single country.

Zero covid was, and is, utter bollocks and completely unnecessary for a virus as trivial as coronavirus. There never needed to be "a plan" or any change from the way past winter respiratory viruses were dealth with.

Cross immunity from other coronaviruses, not to mention prior immunity for anyone who managed to get SARS-COV-1 back in 2003 applies.

Didn't need to vaccinate anyone, didn't have to "force people to mingle", should have just left everyone to get on with it. Like Sweden did.


So I agree that Zero Covid as a concept was and is total bs, hence my writing. I do think it wouldn't be wrong, however, to treat it say somewhat seriously as opposed to as somewhat overly seriously as even the Trump administration did. I think we overreacted. That said, it was new, we knew relatively little, some hospitals were having trouble to the point where national guard had to be sent in and even in my low-COVID (thanks to tyranny) locality some folks I know in medical were complaining about not having enough beds because of this specifically on top of the usual bullshit, (I blame our government sponsored healthcare system and increased demand partly for that, but anyway.) and even to this day it has a hospitalization rate of like 5% and a death rate of 2%, both among the people who actually know and report they have it being recorded as cases and according to most studies. The common flu has a death rate of like .1%. Now to be fair, prior to Omicron the common flu was both a sizable bit more prevalent and virulent, but not more virulent by a factor of x20. Likewise stuff like longhauler symptoms and cetera made COVID a bit of a wildcard. So I think when Trump went for finding a voluntary vaccine, albeit not the lockdowns, that was justified.

Heck, had they wanted to popularize as opposed to mandate wearing masks outside, so be it. It apparently reduces probability a bit, (because basically it spreads via droplets/aerosols from the mouth https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7256510/) allegedly in outdoor areas especially, and so I guess better something than nothing. (https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2021/09/surgical-masks-covid-19.html) This lowered probability is supposedly true even in most metastudies, though depending on context it may be less effective, and it doesn't have close to 100% protection, cuz it's just a mask. https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2014564118

That said, masking wasn't encouraged prior to COVID, despite it reducing non-COVID respiratory diseases. https://www.amjmed.com/article/S0002-9343(21)00410-1/fulltext 

This for me alongside all my other earlier points says it was still very arbitrary and wrong to mandate it.

From what I understand, immunity from getting COVID does apply, equally well if not significantly better than a vaccine, albeit much like vaccination it doesn't give a 100% immunity. It reduces hospitalization rate just as much if not more than vaccines, though it requires getting COVID first. It should count as being vaccinated and repeatedly boostered, but also that shouldn't matter because the government has no place regulating any of that.

Sweden was better than us, but they weren't perfect. Take a read of this, if you want, but don't pay attention to the author's tilted commentary, pay attention to some of what Sweden did restrict: https://theconversation.com/did-swedens-controversial-covid-strategy-pay-off-in-many-ways-it-did-but-it-let-the-elderly-down-188338

They put caps on numbers of people meeting to like 8, for instance, even back in November 2020. That still would have decimated my locality.

I also note that like 4/5ths of them wound up actively social distancing or whatever and that most have been vaccinated now (70%+ of total according to the internet have "full" vaccination). Which is fine, but something to consider. They didn't go about their lives as they would have otherwise, and the government encouraged social distancing and cetera after trying to accelerate the spread for herd immunity, which as we've gone over is kinda a BS endgame. Would I rather we did it the Swedish way? Sure, would have been better by comparison. But they screwed up too and were arguably a little authoritarian in some ways that were wrong. Also, they encouraged their people to do some things that while I appreciated, you admittedly might not.

On which note, I'll quote myself from a prior conversation regarding vaccines and mortality rates, to go along with that chart Mistwell showed. I do think vaccines have some use. It varies from demographic to demographic how powerful the difference is, whether young or old, preconditions or none, etcetera. "But even still, the numbers seem to say something is going on at least in correlation with respect to deaths, hospitalizations, and even contraction between vaccinated and the unvaccinated. Though those numbers have less disparity for basic vaccination as opposed to booster post-omicron and the virus seemingly adapting to the vaccine or whatever. I'd be willing to believe that the vaccinated are more likely to wear masks and demand masks everywhere, squirrel themselves up like hermits, and avoid the unvaccinated or ill like plague rats, which could be explaining some of this. But at one point nationally there were 10x as many deaths from like omicron among the unvaccinated than the fully vaccinated and boosted. https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-to-compare-covid-deaths-for-vaccinated-and-unvaccinated-people/ ." So as a therapeutic there is noticeable impact.

Regarding transmission and immunity, dkabq notes that some independent studies were done on vaccines regarding that, and though I think he presumably doesn't especially like or trust most of the ones he read they are presumably out there. I also noted how some were publicized back in early 2021 even on CBS with respect to Delta making immunity weaker. There are more, but I don't want to dump too many cuz that would probably waste both our time. Here's some less independent ones referenced by the UK for instance: https://www.bmj.com/content/376/bmj.o298

Point being, they make it somewhat harder to catch the bug, which even by itself and not accounting for viral load reduction when you do have it slows the spread.

Also to clarify, I said ALLEGEDLY about the unvaccinated being a "threat" to the unvaccinated because even were CLAIMS about vaccines being totally effective there true in combination with no risk for fatality and hospitalization, that would just mean that those not receiving the vaccine are only putting themselves and therefore those who accept and have weighed the risk at risk. I was trying to turn their own logic against them, but may have overstepped.

I don't think we disagree on policy, but if you don't concur on where I'm coming from regarding medical facts, I am happy to discuss. I'm not the most informed person out there, but I can at least try to explain why I did what I did with respect to self-care, and why I believe what I do. Things are sometimes blurry and hard to parse with respect to COVID, so I think it reasonable that folks can disagree.

Likewise, the jury as you say is still out on whether and how much these vaccines will cause harm in the long run. Different people will evaluate the risks differently. And especially when it comes to the unknown, it's hard to say what's reasonable.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: dkabq on October 23, 2022, 10:57:06 AM
Worse...vaccine...ever...
https://www.cnn.com/2022/10/22/health/cdc-director-positive-covid/index.html
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Zelen on October 23, 2022, 12:23:21 PM
Worse...vaccine...ever...
https://www.cnn.com/2022/10/22/health/cdc-director-positive-covid/index.html

""""""""""""vaccine""""""""""""
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Stephen Tannhauser on October 24, 2022, 04:46:31 PM
What's really annoying is a phenomenon I've encountered twice now: Right now I am looking for another job, my previous company having closed down at the end of June, and I'm roving through various employment sites and boards including LinkedIn. That some companies will still idiotically require full vaccination as a condition of employment annoys me, but I don't mind that. What I mind is having that as a policy and then not telling the recruiters or job posters that in the job description.

I don't need to get my hopes up about a very well-suited position only to have the cup dashed from my lips at the last instant; if you'd tell me that this was a requirement, I'd know not to apply in the first place. But it really seems like the virus-paranoid are now not only paranoid about exposure but paranoid about looking paranoid. As if the only way to believe in a "return to normal" is to pretend nobody had to go along with any ethically unconscionable government policies to get there -- not just an elephant in the room, but an elephant everybody's riding while pretending they're standing still.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Zelen on October 24, 2022, 07:41:27 PM
What's really annoying is a phenomenon I've encountered twice now: Right now I am looking for another job, my previous company having closed down at the end of June, and I'm roving through various employment sites and boards including LinkedIn. That some companies will still idiotically require full vaccination as a condition of employment annoys me, but I don't mind that. What I mind is having that as a policy and then not telling the recruiters or job posters that in the job description.

I don't need to get my hopes up about a very well-suited position only to have the cup dashed from my lips at the last instant; if you'd tell me that this was a requirement, I'd know not to apply in the first place. But it really seems like the virus-paranoid are now not only paranoid about exposure but paranoid about looking paranoid. As if the only way to believe in a "return to normal" is to pretend nobody had to go along with any ethically unconscionable government policies to get there -- not just an elephant in the room, but an elephant everybody's riding while pretending they're standing still.

Yep. Understand this totally. Lack of clear communication on this point is a huge red flag, and I suspect you're right ... They're trying to pretend this is normal and not at all a huge break with normal practices. I've never seen an employer outside of specific healthcare related jobs asking about this stuff, and I imagine many employers are being coy specifically because asking medical history runs afoul of various laws.

On the plus side:

(https://i.imgur.com/XCvVQwU.jpg)
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ratman_tf on October 25, 2022, 12:28:58 AM
What's really annoying is a phenomenon I've encountered twice now: Right now I am looking for another job, my previous company having closed down at the end of June, and I'm roving through various employment sites and boards including LinkedIn. That some companies will still idiotically require full vaccination as a condition of employment annoys me, but I don't mind that. What I mind is having that as a policy and then not telling the recruiters or job posters that in the job description.

I don't need to get my hopes up about a very well-suited position only to have the cup dashed from my lips at the last instant; if you'd tell me that this was a requirement, I'd know not to apply in the first place. But it really seems like the virus-paranoid are now not only paranoid about exposure but paranoid about looking paranoid. As if the only way to believe in a "return to normal" is to pretend nobody had to go along with any ethically unconscionable government policies to get there -- not just an elephant in the room, but an elephant everybody's riding while pretending they're standing still.

Yep. Understand this totally. Lack of clear communication on this point is a huge red flag, and I suspect you're right ... They're trying to pretend this is normal and not at all a huge break with normal practices. I've never seen an employer outside of specific healthcare related jobs asking about this stuff, and I imagine many employers are being coy specifically because asking medical history runs afoul of various laws.

I had a job opportunity with A Big Software Company, and the recruiter asked if I had gotten the vaccine. I told him no. The topic apparently was a sticking point for getting the job.
As a humorous aside, and I told the recruiter this, I have worked the past 10 months at a grocery deli. While they encourage it, getting the vaccines is not mandatory.

And I lick all the food before it goes out.  ;D

While not an optimal situation, Covid has been a good reason to get out of the software development gig and into a union job with decent bennies and more stability.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on October 25, 2022, 05:19:04 AM
   Big corporations now have the easiest political sorting tool you could devise with the vax.  Since it also trends that white men are unlikely to get all the shots it also acts as a nice boost for AA as well.  Well done societal engineers....well done. No need to toss applicants resumes in the trash for checking the "white" and "male" boxes, the vax can do the same job and even build a narrative around "safety" around it.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: jhkim on October 25, 2022, 11:51:54 AM
   Big corporations now have the easiest political sorting tool you could devise with the vax.  Since it also trends that white men are unlikely to get all the shots it also acts as a nice boost for AA as well.  Well done societal engineers....well done.

From the statistics I've seen, white people are more likely than black people to get the vaccination. In the most recent data I find:

Black: 59%
White: 64%
Hispanic: 67%
Asian: 87%

Source: https://www.kff.org/coronavirus-covid-19/issue-brief/latest-data-on-covid-19-vaccinations-by-race-ethnicity/

CDC data showed an even bigger gap back in 2021, with non-Hispanic white people well ahead of both black people and Hispanic, but the gap apparently has narrowed over time such that they're all pretty close to each other.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on October 25, 2022, 07:35:44 PM
   Big corporations now have the easiest political sorting tool you could devise with the vax.  Since it also trends that white men are unlikely to get all the shots it also acts as a nice boost for AA as well.  Well done societal engineers....well done.

From the statistics I've seen, white people are more likely than black people to get the vaccination. In the most recent data I find:

Black: 59%
White: 64%
Hispanic: 67%
Asian: 87%

Source: https://www.kff.org/coronavirus-covid-19/issue-brief/latest-data-on-covid-19-vaccinations-by-race-ethnicity/

CDC data showed an even bigger gap back in 2021, with non-Hispanic white people well ahead of both black people and Hispanic, but the gap apparently has narrowed over time such that they're all pretty close to each other.

  I think you can not see the obvious if it hit you in the face.  I do think it is fun that the CDC knows the difference between white people and hispanics, but the FBI does not.   Wrong think whites are way lower down than any other group on those vax rates, and boomers are heavily over represented (white people no one has to reject with AA).  You also post stats about whites when I specifically said white MEN.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ratman_tf on October 26, 2022, 12:23:16 AM


Pfizer executive admits they lied about the vaccine preventing transmisison of the disease. A lie perpetuated by the CDC, the WHO, the White House, and many others.

Everyone involved should be sacked. And that sack should be tossed into the mariana trench.

Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: dkabq on October 27, 2022, 04:44:56 PM
Biden's INSANE Anti-Science Push For Fifth COVID Shot | Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9GpSf4uwH8

https://sensiblemed.substack.com/p/the-cdc-director-just-got-covid-she
 
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: dkabq on October 27, 2022, 09:01:56 PM
Joe Biden Needs to FIRE all his COVID advisors | Jha, Walensky, Murthy & More | Here is Why
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_a6IdpVbxg

Anyone care to refute his points using facts and logic?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ghostmaker on October 31, 2022, 06:18:52 PM
https://archive.ph/V462o#selection-597.0-809.307

'We need an amnesty to protect us from people pissed we misled them about Covid!'

Now why would they need that?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: 3catcircus on October 31, 2022, 08:03:28 PM
https://archive.ph/V462o#selection-597.0-809.307

'We need an amnesty to protect us from people pissed we misled them about Covid!'

Now why would they need that?
Fuck. Them.

We have a #DHSLeaks trending showing that everything you believed about social media censoring people is even worse than you thought. Vijaya Gadde met monthly with DHS to discuss how to censor any discussion critical of COVID jabs, Hunter's laptop, and Biden's dementia, amongst other speech protected by 1A.

Fuck them all. Burn it all down and hold every single one of those cunts to account.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Zelen on October 31, 2022, 08:22:11 PM
Reduced mortality for 0-14 age cohort due to Sars-Cov-2. Only ticks up after injections roll out for this age group.
(https://i.imgur.com/NceT6bt.png)

For 15-44 age cohort, no significant excess deaths, except they keep ticking up after injections were rolled out.
(https://i.imgur.com/k2PHjnM.png)

Some excess deaths in 65-84 cohort from Covid, but even more mortality after the "dry tinder" was burned off and the injections were rolled out.
(https://i.imgur.com/zsqyXnB.png)

For the 85+ cohort, significant excess mortality, continuing on even after injections were supposed to have saved everyone.
(https://i.imgur.com/HUZXFjH.png)
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ratman_tf on November 01, 2022, 12:36:29 AM
https://archive.ph/V462o#selection-597.0-809.307

'We need an amnesty to protect us from people pissed we misled them about Covid!'

Now why would they need that?

Quote
We need to forgive one another for what we did and said when we were in the dark about COVID.


No.


Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Chris24601 on November 01, 2022, 05:16:21 PM
https://archive.ph/V462o#selection-597.0-809.307

'We need an amnesty to protect us from people pissed we misled them about Covid!'

Now why would they need that?

Quote
We need to forgive one another for what we did and said when we were in the dark about COVID.


No.

I would be willing to forgive them... if they immediately resigned from any position of authority and agreed to spend the next 25 years confined to one of the Covid concentration camps they wanted to corral all the unvaxxed into.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: dkabq on November 01, 2022, 05:56:23 PM
Biden's Bivalent Booster Blunder
https://vinayprasadmdmph.substack.com/p/bidens-bivalent-booster-blunder

Still waiting for the vax apologist to refute his points with facts and logic.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: dkabq on November 02, 2022, 07:10:12 AM

https://twitter.com/raggedoldmemes/status/1587287905730703363?s=20&t=g7c4V_Nvx7sdrt6iYTF5kQ
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on November 02, 2022, 08:06:02 AM
All the cunts who think they can slink away with an "amnesty" on the evil shit they pushed on other people so we can "move on"? They can get fucked.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ratman_tf on November 02, 2022, 11:21:09 AM
---
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on November 02, 2022, 01:32:41 PM
All the cunts who think they can slink away with an "amnesty" on the evil shit they pushed on other people so we can "move on"? They can get fucked.

True. I am not going to forgive you for all the nonsense conspiracy theories you were peddling here.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on November 02, 2022, 03:23:11 PM
True. I am not going to forgive you for all the nonsense conspiracy theories you were peddling here.

Fuck you. I never threatened anyone's livelihood or ability to function, or threatened to ostracise them from society because they didn't comply with the jab.

Virtually all of my "conspiracy theories" have proven to be true. Unlike the fallacious narrative morons like you slavishly lapped up.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: KindaMeh on November 02, 2022, 05:51:41 PM
Joe Biden Needs to FIRE all his COVID advisors | Jha, Walensky, Murthy & More | Here is Why
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_a6IdpVbxg

Anyone care to refute his points using facts and logic?

Personally, I think this dude makes a whole lot of sense. And deserves to be parroted on some things, though I know you’re probably waiting for a different response.

Children were minimally affected and should not have had masks that impaired learning and development. Likewise there was no real point in dedicating so much disruptive effort towards protecting them specifically when they were the least at risk, and the treatment in many cases proved worse than the disease in affecting outcomes. I’ll go a step further once again and say mask mandates and vaccine mandates and most mandates in general were wrong on the basis of political discrimination, as noted earlier.

That said, he kinda sometimes seems like a bit of a technocrat, and I almost feel that if the science had been different we’d be hearing something different from him on policy. I can appreciate caring about facts in politics, but also some of this stuff is a moral and democratic function issue with respect to political discrimination, and it almost feels like he thinks science can tell us how to do policy? IDK though, might be misrepresenting him on that. He seems very reasonable and learned, and I broadly agree with his specifically stated points, so I should probably give him the benefit of the doubt.

And yeah, seems like other more competent folks could’ve done the job better. Mainly in that the government did very little to no testing itself on a lot of points and just relied on less monetarily backed/resource supported independent studies or incomplete corporate studies. They could’ve afforded to personally throw more money and real effort into testing if they were going to disrupt folks lives to the extent they did. That said, I kinda don’t think there should’ve been any mandated disruption at all on other grounds, so for me it’s kinda irrelevant. Also, though I would personally potentially stand to benefit politically from it, I dunno if political centrist appointments more generally are what we need so much as a moral awakening on the part of our ruling politicians that seems unlikely to happen.

Also, the kids under 5 vax study approval manipulations I feel should’ve been illegal. If it doesn’t work the first couple times it probably doesn’t work, or there should at least be a sizable waiting period and solid proof of redesign before it can be tested again. It’s kinda just a rather stupid failing of our government testing system rules and leadership that this was allowed. I feel like this guy could’ve done their jobs better on several levels, so he makes a decent point that the government should be doing better on hiring. (Though to be fair, this dude also seems pretty darn sharp to me.)

Door Dash, I’m kinda unsurprised at this point. Of course they’d try to monetize this sort of thing. But also, weird that paxlovid is even deemed something to promote among the vaccinated. The hospitalization risk is so low, especially among repeat boosters, that it kinda just seems like profiting off of fearmongering. Which is totally unsurprising now that I think about it, but still.

Bivalent boosters seem less tested than basic vaccines and boosters, and the emergency thing is ridiculous. Covid is endemic at this point, Zero COVID is insane as noted earlier, and it hasn’t even been proven these things are better than normal boosters and vaccines, so why besides corporate profit and the desire of government to be “doing something” would we need it? Also seems like it didn’t work any better for Walensky than the low vaccination immunity rates other stuff has been shown to have, that seem to drop with every study on a new variant.

And again, as I noted in a prior post, having Covid is the most effective vaccine apart from the having Covid bit. It works better than a typical booster and this video further proves it.

The Russian Roulette analogy was interesting. I think some slow is better than none, especially if it comes accompanied by a therapeutic reduction in damage when you do get shot, but not within the context of a mandate. So I kinda agree on it being within the mandate section. If it only slows but does not halt, then yeah no mandate justification. But I’ll go a step further than him again, I think a mandate would not be justified regardless.

I knew about myocarditis and was scared cuz a medic friend gave me the numbers in absolute terms. I feel a bit better about it having heard the proportional odds of less than 1 in 3000, cuz my Covid hospitalization odds even modified are higher than that, but still. They should have listened to Israel and given folks more accurate data to work with. Also, they should potentially be publishing and promoting basic vulnerability studies so folks can better judge their odds on taking it.

But yeah, I like this dude’s policy recommendations, and how he called out school closures. Ones that should never have been especially justifiable.

I still stand by everything I’ve said thus far, including the studies I dropped. I also agree this guy makes some solid points in these specific areas. And I feel more convinced than ever that mandates were, are, and would be basically the wrong choice.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on November 02, 2022, 06:38:00 PM
True. I am not going to forgive you for all the nonsense conspiracy theories you were peddling here.

Fuck you. I never threatened anyone's livelihood or ability to function, or threatened to ostracise them from society because they didn't comply with the jab.

Virtually all of my "conspiracy theories" have proven to be true. Unlike the fallacious narrative morons like you slavishly lapped up.

No really, they were not true. They were never true. Some of them even contradicted each other and had no internal consistency even in theory. They were completely paranoid and moronic. And guys like you probably did end in killing people indirectly by spreading falsehoods and convincing people who otherwise would have gotten the vaccine to not get it. Because you were not just casually disagreeing, you were actively telling people it was all lies and intended to do actual harm and claiming the vaccine was making people more susceptible to Covid and making Covid worse for those people who had been vaccinated and that the vaccine itself was resulting in mass death, all lies that can persuade someone to engage in more dangerous behavior even if they're elderly or have underlying conditions.

And you're not accountable to anyone for that behavior. 90% of people even here didn't agree with your madness but even they won't hold you accountable for it thinking "he's has a right to his bad opinion" is the same as "he shouldn't be told it's bad to do it for spreading that bad opinion."
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: KindaMeh on November 02, 2022, 07:10:08 PM
Reduced mortality for 0-14 age cohort due to Sars-Cov-2. Only ticks up after injections roll out for this age group.
(https://i.imgur.com/NceT6bt.png)

For 15-44 age cohort, no significant excess deaths, except they keep ticking up after injections were rolled out.
(https://i.imgur.com/k2PHjnM.png)

Some excess deaths in 65-84 cohort from Covid, but even more mortality after the "dry tinder" was burned off and the injections were rolled out.
(https://i.imgur.com/zsqyXnB.png)

For the 85+ cohort, significant excess mortality, continuing on even after injections were supposed to have saved everyone.
(https://i.imgur.com/HUZXFjH.png)

Excess mortality is weird. According to this meta-analysis of data from the site you’re drawing those charts from COVID was a notable factor in excess deaths more generally: https://www.eurosurveillance.org/content/10.2807/1560-7917.ES.2020.25.26.2001214;?crawler=true. 

But also I feel like it’s unsurprising some vaccines rolling out weren’t enough to alter the flow of things. excess deaths draw from a lot of sources, not just Covid, so altogether unsurprising that COVID isn’t dictating excess deaths in general. Also towards the start as noted in prior posts masking was a weird factor Covid brought into play, because of its downward effects on other respiratory diseases. I also feel like we may be seeing some long term effects with respect to the lockdowns and cetera, they’re probably having caused more excess deaths due to mental health crises, livelihood disruption, and cetera, and though I have no numerical proof of impact that’s gotta be something. Likewise the world and its economy aren’t doing great, nor is crime.

IDK, tho, the people above are apparently experts in excess death analysis or something, and they seem to think COVID was in there somewhere based on math and cetera. I like to speculate, but their analysis is probably better.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on November 02, 2022, 08:04:36 PM
No really, they were not true. They were never true. Some of them even contradicted each other and had no internal consistency even in theory. They were completely paranoid and moronic. And guys like you probably did end in killing people indirectly by spreading falsehoods and convincing people who otherwise would have gotten the vaccine to not get it. Because you were not just casually disagreeing, you were actively telling people it was all lies and intended to do actual harm and claiming the vaccine was making people more susceptible to Covid and making Covid worse for those people who had been vaccinated and that the vaccine itself was resulting in mass death, all lies that can persuade someone to engage in more dangerous behavior even if they're elderly or have underlying conditions.

And you're not accountable to anyone for that behavior. 90% of people even here didn't agree with your madness but even they won't hold you accountable for it thinking "he's has a right to his bad opinion" is the same as "he shouldn't be told it's bad to do it for spreading that bad opinion."

You must have missed the utter collapse of every part of the tissue of lies that makes up the official narrative on covid. The increase in all-cause mortality since the jabs have been rolled out and the huge number of deaths caused directly by it (more than any vaccine in recorded history combined). Especially deaths of young people and children.

Or the fact that it has precisely fuck all impact on infection, hospitalisation or death. That the authorities lied about every single aspect of the jabs they were pushing, even as they retreated ever further from their initial claims.

Seriously, what fucking bunker have you been living in to preserve this delusion that covid jabs are a net good? When in spite of the media put-on job, ever more evidence appears showing how actively harmful they are.

Lining up for your fifth jab yet, moron?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on November 02, 2022, 09:54:24 PM
No really, they were not true. They were never true. Some of them even contradicted each other and had no internal consistency even in theory. They were completely paranoid and moronic. And guys like you probably did end in killing people indirectly by spreading falsehoods and convincing people who otherwise would have gotten the vaccine to not get it. Because you were not just casually disagreeing, you were actively telling people it was all lies and intended to do actual harm and claiming the vaccine was making people more susceptible to Covid and making Covid worse for those people who had been vaccinated and that the vaccine itself was resulting in mass death, all lies that can persuade someone to engage in more dangerous behavior even if they're elderly or have underlying conditions.

And you're not accountable to anyone for that behavior. 90% of people even here didn't agree with your madness but even they won't hold you accountable for it thinking "he's has a right to his bad opinion" is the same as "he shouldn't be told it's bad to do it for spreading that bad opinion."

You must have missed the utter collapse of every part of the tissue of lies that makes up the official narrative on covid. The increase in all-cause mortality since the jabs have been rolled out and the huge number of deaths caused directly by it (more than any vaccine in recorded history combined). Especially deaths of young people and children.

Or the fact that it has precisely fuck all impact on infection, hospitalisation or death. That the authorities lied about every single aspect of the jabs they were pushing, even as they retreated ever further from their initial claims.

Seriously, what fucking bunker have you been living in to preserve this delusion that covid jabs are a net good? When in spite of the media put-on job, ever more evidence appears showing how actively harmful they are.

Lining up for your fifth jab yet, moron?

And this is what I mean when I said you will never be held accountable for misleading people to their deaths. You believe the idiocy you're spewing and people think as long as you're genuine in your moronic conspiracy theory rantings then that's OK enough.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ratman_tf on November 03, 2022, 12:51:53 AM
True. I am not going to forgive you for all the nonsense conspiracy theories you were peddling here.

Fuck you. I never threatened anyone's livelihood or ability to function, or threatened to ostracise them from society because they didn't comply with the jab.

Virtually all of my "conspiracy theories" have proven to be true. Unlike the fallacious narrative morons like you slavishly lapped up.

No really, they were not true. They were never true. Some of them even contradicted each other and had no internal consistency even in theory. They were completely paranoid and moronic. And guys like you probably did end in killing people indirectly by spreading falsehoods and convincing people who otherwise would have gotten the vaccine to not get it. Because you were not just casually disagreeing, you were actively telling people it was all lies and intended to do actual harm and claiming the vaccine was making people more susceptible to Covid and making Covid worse for those people who had been vaccinated and that the vaccine itself was resulting in mass death, all lies that can persuade someone to engage in more dangerous behavior even if they're elderly or have underlying conditions.

And you're not accountable to anyone for that behavior. 90% of people even here didn't agree with your madness but even they won't hold you accountable for it thinking "he's has a right to his bad opinion" is the same as "he shouldn't be told it's bad to do it for spreading that bad opinion."

I am far more concerned about the government and media spreading bad information about Covid that directly got people killed.


Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: SHARK on November 03, 2022, 05:01:05 AM
Greetings!

Yes, thank you. I was right in my analysis of the "Covid Crisis" from the beginning. Evidence of leaked e-mails from Twitter explain how top government officials with Homeland Security met with Google and Twitter executives EVERY WEEK to strategize and COORDINATE systemic crackdowns against anyone questioning, resisting, or critiquing the OFFICIAL GOVERNMENT NARRATIVE OF VACCINE AND MASK MANDATES.

Government, the CDC, and Tech media like Twitter and Google all working together to establish and promote tyranny.

All the fucking Covid crybabies can get fucked. Covid is a fucking virus, like the flu, and can kill people. Especially people that are old, fat, or have diabetes. None of that merits locking down an entire country, destroying a nation's economy, crushing people's fucking Constitutional rights, or establishing TYRANNY.

So many people in this country yearn to be slaves. They love tyranny. They eagerly wait and hope for a tyrannical mommy government to control everything and everyone.

All those people can get fucked. Napalm is sweet for them. It's what all these tyrant government Renfields deserve.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on November 03, 2022, 07:04:06 AM
A handy guide to potential adverse effects from mRNA jabs:

(https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/68e7ba7b1b2f3666d31839d7d16c83e2403cc9aa1527abac5e90134c15bfd75e.png?w=600&h=353)
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: KindaMeh on November 03, 2022, 12:14:05 PM
A handy guide to potential adverse effects from mRNA jabs:

(https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/68e7ba7b1b2f3666d31839d7d16c83e2403cc9aa1527abac5e90134c15bfd75e.png?w=600&h=353)

I’d need to know where this diagram came from and how it was developed to properly evaluate the potential risks alleged. If you have the numbers on the pathways and outcomes that would also be much appreciated. I’m currently deciding if a booster makes sense after my natural immunity after having caught it once a while after vaccination and minimal upkeep wears off. More info on both perks and downsides helps.

I also either don’t have the medical background to know what they’re listed here as, or the points on stuff like myocarditis as well as anaphylaxis and antibody dependent responses (dunno if this one does meaningful damage so much as limiting some positive outcomes, tho) I hear from the internet are sometimes a thing (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8611574/) aren’t yet listed, though I don’t think anaphylaxis would apply for me.

Also, what is the general opinion on this site on Johnson and Johnson, since it didn’t use mRNA? I know it was pulled by Biden in a typical overreaction, temporarily over “super rare but severe” blood clots in some folks out of millions, but it seems like it would have less long term effect issues in calculation to me, and while I know mRNA has been around as a treatment for 80+ years, it still kinda seemed a simpler mechanism to me?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: KindaMeh on November 03, 2022, 12:24:07 PM
No really, they were not true. They were never true. Some of them even contradicted each other and had no internal consistency even in theory. They were completely paranoid and moronic. And guys like you probably did end in killing people indirectly by spreading falsehoods and convincing people who otherwise would have gotten the vaccine to not get it. Because you were not just casually disagreeing, you were actively telling people it was all lies and intended to do actual harm and claiming the vaccine was making people more susceptible to Covid and making Covid worse for those people who had been vaccinated and that the vaccine itself was resulting in mass death, all lies that can persuade someone to engage in more dangerous behavior even if they're elderly or have underlying conditions.

And you're not accountable to anyone for that behavior. 90% of people even here didn't agree with your madness but even they won't hold you accountable for it thinking "he's has a right to his bad opinion" is the same as "he shouldn't be told it's bad to do it for spreading that bad opinion."

You must have missed the utter collapse of every part of the tissue of lies that makes up the official narrative on covid. The increase in all-cause mortality since the jabs have been rolled out and the huge number of deaths caused directly by it (more than any vaccine in recorded history combined). Especially deaths of young people and children.

Or the fact that it has precisely fuck all impact on infection, hospitalisation or death. That the authorities lied about every single aspect of the jabs they were pushing, even as they retreated ever further from their initial claims.

Seriously, what fucking bunker have you been living in to preserve this delusion that covid jabs are a net good? When in spite of the media put-on job, ever more evidence appears showing how actively harmful they are.

Lining up for your fifth jab yet, moron?

For hospitalization, infection, and death I think I posted some decent stuff two pages back or so that made a decent case for reduction. Though as noted in dkabq’s video children under 5’s special vaccination for instance is pretty much negligible in impact.

I posted an excess death analysis one post earlier than this too, though you may have already been writing at the time.

Also, while the jury’s still out on long term effects, the small pox vaccine is a hard number to beat. Honestly was kinda scary to see upon looking it up. Would take some effort to surpass that.

I also feel like the authorities were incompetent and dishonest in their handling of this, but even if they hadn’t been and even accounting for the studies I dropped mandates could not be justified. Because it’s political discrimination, kills the economy, they were enacted in undemocratic ways, and more as listed out in my rants previously. The jabs can be net good in and of themselves and a mandate would still be total bs, even within that specific area.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on November 03, 2022, 01:42:58 PM
I’d need to know where this diagram came from and how it was developed to properly evaluate the potential risks alleged. If you have the numbers on the pathways and outcomes that would also be much appreciated. I’m currently deciding if a booster makes sense after my natural immunity after having caught it once a while after vaccination and minimal upkeep wears off. More info on both perks and downsides helps.

I also either don’t have the medical background to know what they’re listed here as, or the points on stuff like myocarditis as well as anaphylaxis and antibody dependent responses (dunno if this one does meaningful damage so much as limiting some positive outcomes, tho) I hear from the internet are sometimes a thing (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8611574/) aren’t yet listed, though I don’t think anaphylaxis would apply for me.

Also, what is the general opinion on this site on Johnson and Johnson, since it didn’t use mRNA? I know it was pulled by Biden in a typical overreaction, temporarily over “super rare but severe” blood clots in some folks out of millions, but it seems like it would have less long term effect issues in calculation to me, and while I know mRNA has been around as a treatment for 80+ years, it still kinda seemed a simpler mechanism to me?

If you've been mRNA'd with Pfizer or Moderna, each dose causes even more damage to your immune system and increases the likelihood of any of those harms occurring. There was never any need for anyone to get jabbed for covid, the case is even weaker now the only strains around are harmless. Natural immunity from exposure is all anyone ever needed, and is the best protection of all.

The Oxford/Astra Zeneca jab was the main non-mRNA formulation. It was simply loaded with spike proteins, instead of rewriting your DNA to produce them forever. That massive dose of spike proteins caused epithelial damage resulting in blood clots, heart attacks, strokes and quickly lethal for some people, causing longer term damage in others short of fatality.

mRNA has not been around for 80 years. It is a relatively new technology, developed in the 1980s (Robert Malone was a leading pioneer in this area), first trialled in humans in 2020. Were it not for the emergency use authorisation, it would not have been allowed to be rolled out to hundreds of millions of people.

Attempts to create a vaccine for coronaviruses have been going on for 80-odd years, with every single attempt ending in failure (and often the deaths of all the animal test subjects).
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Jaeger on November 03, 2022, 02:27:04 PM
More conspiracy theories:

(https://i0.wp.com/www.anonymousconservative.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2022/11/vax2.jpg?w=643&ssl=1)
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: KindaMeh on November 03, 2022, 04:36:55 PM
I’d need to know where this diagram came from and how it was developed to properly evaluate the potential risks alleged. If you have the numbers on the pathways and outcomes that would also be much appreciated. I’m currently deciding if a booster makes sense after my natural immunity after having caught it once a while after vaccination and minimal upkeep wears off. More info on both perks and downsides helps.

I also either don’t have the medical background to know what they’re listed here as, or the points on stuff like myocarditis as well as anaphylaxis and antibody dependent responses (dunno if this one does meaningful damage so much as limiting some positive outcomes, tho) I hear from the internet are sometimes a thing (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8611574/) aren’t yet listed, though I don’t think anaphylaxis would apply for me.

Also, what is the general opinion on this site on Johnson and Johnson, since it didn’t use mRNA? I know it was pulled by Biden in a typical overreaction, temporarily over “super rare but severe” blood clots in some folks out of millions, but it seems like it would have less long term effect issues in calculation to me, and while I know mRNA has been around as a treatment for 80+ years, it still kinda seemed a simpler mechanism to me?

If you've been mRNA'd with Pfizer or Moderna, each dose causes even more damage to your immune system and increases the likelihood of any of those harms occurring. There was never any need for anyone to get jabbed for covid, the case is even weaker now the only strains around are harmless. Natural immunity from exposure is all anyone ever needed, and is the best protection of all.

The Oxford/Astra Zeneca jab was the main non-mRNA formulation. It was simply loaded with spike proteins, instead of rewriting your DNA to produce them forever. That massive dose of spike proteins caused epithelial damage resulting in blood clots, heart attacks, strokes and quickly lethal for some people, causing longer term damage in others short of fatality.

mRNA has not been around for 80 years. It is a relatively new technology, developed in the 1980s (Robert Malone was a leading pioneer in this area), first trialled in humans in 2020. Were it not for the emergency use authorisation, it would not have been allowed to be rolled out to hundreds of millions of people.

Attempts to create a vaccine for coronaviruses have been going on for 80-odd years, with every single attempt ending in failure (and often the deaths of all the animal test subjects).

Well, shit. I think I confused 80 years on Covid with 80 mRNA years, which was pretty bad. Also mRNA and mRNA treatment research with mRNA vaccines in specific that one time I mentioned mRNA being around in the 60s prior to this. As a heads-up to folks I screwed the pooch on that one. The former were the 1960s, the latter Kiero corrected me more or less properly on. There’s apparently arguments over how long after 1960s exactly it was “discovered”, with some 70s claims, but his dude is the generally accepted one for a completed product. Feeling a bit less safe, but good to know. Thanks for taking the time to reply. (I think I have it now. Hopefully. This is what I get for soundbite quoting the internet.)

mRNA treatment I heard doesn’t really change the base genes and degrades which is part of why the vaccines don’t give long term protection. (https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-covid-mrna-gene/fact-check-mrna-vaccines-are-distinct-from-gene-therapy-which-alters-recipients-genes-idUSL1N2PH16N) I don’t get long term protection from the vaccine much as getting the virus you can be reinfected like some of my relatives were, right? Or do I have some long term protein production or something swinging for me?

I dunno the exact deal with viral vectors and how exactly that relates to spike proteins for J&J, but based on what you’re saying I’m fine to take it if I don’t get immediately damaged by the shot? But that this depends on current load for proteins or something? So like wait until a certain amount of time after prior infection before taking it, so protein immune system weakens or something?

Regarding some of this stuff… Do you have any sources I could read and the like? I’m sort of following but also don’t really get it.

Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: KindaMeh on November 03, 2022, 05:03:32 PM
More conspiracy theories:

(https://i0.wp.com/www.anonymousconservative.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2022/11/vax2.jpg?w=643&ssl=1)

This is kinda disturbing.

Though apparently there was also this, so I guess a trade-off maybe: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/england-covid-19-mortality-rate-by-vaccination-status?country=~All+ages

But I guess also vaccination rates soared over that time period. So that’s a thing. Per 100k you’d expect to see more vaccinated more and more as time went on, and allegedly the virus became more virulent and had a higher kill count rate/day which could explain unvaccinated rates, though your graph might already account for that. IDK where you got it, so can’t say for sure. https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/vaccinations  (Edit: Thought about it and ignore this bit, the graph was probably being read wrong by me. The way the graph is structured absolute numbers of vaccinated per 100k don't likely matter, only deaths per 100k vaccinated. Though apparently England mostly prioritized the old and infirm over the young during this time period in terms of who wound up signing up for the shot over time. More on that in some of the below darts I threw at the wall or pulled off the internet.) (Second Edit: I just realized this graph has numbers going up from zero for some reason. Doubt the death rate ever got that low. I definitely would need to see the original source to understand this thing, though I might just be not great at fancy graphs and statistics.) (Third Edit: Finally got it, it's the number per 100k added together over time cumulative with prior numbers, derp. But yeah, with that interpretation I guess this isn't unexpected. If anything I'd have expected a more strongly accelerating rate as the older and more infirm folk transfer in and the healthy transfer out, may be counterbalanced by COVID a bit but you wouldn't expect that much with a 1-2% mortality rate for the infected at the time, and no crazy boost to infection overcompensating for a dropping rate of per case death from Omicron coming into play yet.)

Do we have more recent data? Either going into 2022 or from when the vaccine rate had more or less stabilized?

I found this thing but it’s just tables: https://www.ons.gov.uk/file?uri=/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/datasets/deathsbyvaccinationstatusengland/deathsoccurringbetween1january2021and31may2022/referencetable06072022accessible.xlsx

Towards the bottom the rate of life hours lost per 100,000 hours seems roughly even, but also it’s a little hard for me to tell what the deal is on that. But also the young and healthy you’d expect to be vaccinated less quickly or possibly not at all. And I think towards the earlier part of vaccination the data kinda followed that pattern, where those at risk of death and loss were the first to get vaccinated and the above metric spiked for a bit.


My browser isn’t always google when I want to get a different set of results, and apparently it got me this on Hungary all-cause mortality and vaccination when I asked it for England.  >:(

Edit: Which I then forgot to include, apparently. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9319484/

Anyway also apparently there was this thing Google gave me when I switched back on a similar graph, though I don’t like relying on Reuters so much. https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-coronavirus-britain/fact-check-englands-death-data-does-not-show-vaccine-caused-mortality-idUSL1N2SN1P4  (I may have been onto something with the whole vaccinating those more likely to die bit. And the ones staying vaccinated are apparently folks who got boostered, which the healthy were less likely to do and keep up on. So those more likely to die go in at higher rates, and those less likely leave at higher rates, so that over time those who are labeled vaccinated are those more likely more generally to have problems. Cuz they're old or have underlying conditions.)


(Hopefully) Final Edit: I got the reason why it's not seriously accelerating. It's any vaccination status, not any government qualifying status, hence including if the protection has lapsed. So ignore young and healthy folks going out of the vaccinated population, that doesn't apply. Apparently a bad day for me as regards cognitive capacity. But still an interesting graph.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on November 03, 2022, 09:39:10 PM
mRNA treatment I heard doesn’t really change the base genes and degrades which is part of why the vaccines don’t give long term protection. (https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-covid-mrna-gene/fact-check-mrna-vaccines-are-distinct-from-gene-therapy-which-alters-recipients-genes-idUSL1N2PH16N) I don’t get long term protection from the vaccine much as getting the virus you can be reinfected like some of my relatives were, right? Or do I have some long term protein production or something swinging for me?

Reuters Fact Check is not even remotely credible, they're paid for by Pfizer. Indeed Reuters' chairman, James C Smith, sits on Pfizer's board (and he's openly associated with the WEF). Nothing they say about the jabs should be relied upon.

I dunno the exact deal with viral vectors and how exactly that relates to spike proteins for J&J, but based on what you’re saying I’m fine to take it if I don’t get immediately damaged by the shot? But that this depends on current load for proteins or something? So like wait until a certain amount of time after prior infection before taking it, so protein immune system weakens or something?

There is no safe dosage, they are all intrinsically harmful. mRNA most definitely does cause genetic change and strips away prior acquired immunity. That's why we have the sudden resurgence of shingles in adults who were previously immune to varicella from having chicken pox as children.

I'm saying you're not fine to take it ever and you cause cumulative damage by taking further shots. Stop getting jabbed for a trivial illness.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: KindaMeh on November 03, 2022, 10:52:37 PM

I dunno the exact deal with viral vectors and how exactly that relates to spike proteins for J&J, but based on what you’re saying I’m fine to take it if I don’t get immediately damaged by the shot? But that this depends on current load for proteins or something? So like wait until a certain amount of time after prior infection before taking it, so protein immune system weakens or something?

There is no safe dosage, they are all intrinsically harmful. mRNA most definitely does cause genetic change and strips away prior acquired immunity. That's why we have the sudden resurgence of shingles in adults who were previously immune to varicella from having chicken pox as children.

I'm saying you're not fine to take it ever and you cause cumulative damage by taking further shots. Stop getting jabbed for a trivial illness.

I'm still hoping for sources at some point on some of this stuff. (Though the Reuters dude with the Pfizer board membership thing was definitively a thing, it seems.)

That said, I looked some points up online since you didn't have source material you were immediately sharing, and this study does seem to imply that shingles specifically might not be an issue: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8608757/ 

Though I also found this on immune response more generally for non-Covid things: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9167431/    (It references a study I couldn't find, but if the reference is correct it could be a problem for repeat mRNA vaccinators doing so on short timespan, immune-wise.)

Couldn't find anything for J&J dropping immune response, tho. I think I might go for that if the price is just paid upfront in whether or not the spike proteins produced by the viral vectors do damage or whatever? That said, I'll probably first hope to catch it again while I still have some degree of immunity from the prior catch cuz maybe that might happen, and presumably it gives longer for my spike protein setup(?) to reset in the meantime, I'd guess.

I'm a bit overweight and don't have great breathing stuff and the like, with some reportedly related preexisting conditions for COVID troubles, though I am young and working on my health, so that does factor in. From what I've heard COVID is weird too, in that it can have long term effects and mental stuff it can do to you even if it doesn't put you in the hospital or kill you.

That and it was pretty annoying even when I last had it in terms of symptoms and not being able to see people or go out in public and stuff. I get that J&J is maybe a minor risk short-term, but it sounds like if I don't get damaged on go #1 I'm probably fine and it makes life easier. I appreciate the concern and willingness to engage with me on your part, especially as I know we seem to have disagreements on some of our statistical positions. If I catch it again in time (which I might, seems pretty endemic) I presumably won't need to go in for a booster. But it also sounds like it might be worth it to pick J&J over mRNA for knowing quickly whether I'm affected long term.

If you or whoever else have more sources or points, though, I do at least try to stay informed and hear what different people have to say. This site has interesting discussions that bring me out of my bubble a bit, I feel. Thank y'all for being part of that.  (Now watch me somehow be part of the ~.04% who get myocarditis later on, in my case after already catching an instance of COVID after their original mRNA shot, making this whole conversation irrelevant, lol.   ;D)
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on November 04, 2022, 12:27:50 AM
True. I am not going to forgive you for all the nonsense conspiracy theories you were peddling here.

Fuck you. I never threatened anyone's livelihood or ability to function, or threatened to ostracise them from society because they didn't comply with the jab.

Virtually all of my "conspiracy theories" have proven to be true. Unlike the fallacious narrative morons like you slavishly lapped up.

No really, they were not true. They were never true. Some of them even contradicted each other and had no internal consistency even in theory. They were completely paranoid and moronic. And guys like you probably did end in killing people indirectly by spreading falsehoods and convincing people who otherwise would have gotten the vaccine to not get it. Because you were not just casually disagreeing, you were actively telling people it was all lies and intended to do actual harm and claiming the vaccine was making people more susceptible to Covid and making Covid worse for those people who had been vaccinated and that the vaccine itself was resulting in mass death, all lies that can persuade someone to engage in more dangerous behavior even if they're elderly or have underlying conditions.

And you're not accountable to anyone for that behavior. 90% of people even here didn't agree with your madness but even they won't hold you accountable for it thinking "he's has a right to his bad opinion" is the same as "he shouldn't be told it's bad to do it for spreading that bad opinion."

I am far more concerned about the government and media spreading bad information about Covid that directly got people killed.

But the Government isn't here and is an impersonal thing. Kiero is right here still doing it and you won't call him out for it, though you know he's a whack job.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ratman_tf on November 04, 2022, 02:27:01 AM
True. I am not going to forgive you for all the nonsense conspiracy theories you were peddling here.

Fuck you. I never threatened anyone's livelihood or ability to function, or threatened to ostracise them from society because they didn't comply with the jab.

Virtually all of my "conspiracy theories" have proven to be true. Unlike the fallacious narrative morons like you slavishly lapped up.

No really, they were not true. They were never true. Some of them even contradicted each other and had no internal consistency even in theory. They were completely paranoid and moronic. And guys like you probably did end in killing people indirectly by spreading falsehoods and convincing people who otherwise would have gotten the vaccine to not get it. Because you were not just casually disagreeing, you were actively telling people it was all lies and intended to do actual harm and claiming the vaccine was making people more susceptible to Covid and making Covid worse for those people who had been vaccinated and that the vaccine itself was resulting in mass death, all lies that can persuade someone to engage in more dangerous behavior even if they're elderly or have underlying conditions.

And you're not accountable to anyone for that behavior. 90% of people even here didn't agree with your madness but even they won't hold you accountable for it thinking "he's has a right to his bad opinion" is the same as "he shouldn't be told it's bad to do it for spreading that bad opinion."

I am far more concerned about the government and media spreading bad information about Covid that directly got people killed.

But the Government isn't here and is an impersonal thing. Kiero is right here still doing it and you won't call him out for it, though you know he's a whack job.

Yes. This is a personal thing between you and Kiero. Don't go looking for me to validate either of your positions.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on November 04, 2022, 07:54:29 AM
But the Government isn't here and is an impersonal thing. Kiero is right here still doing it and you won't call him out for it, though you know he's a whack job.

You're an utter imbecile desperately trying to justify the cognitive dissonance you're feeling, knowing you've been duped into poisoning yourself and your children.

I haven't changed anything about myself or the way I live since 2020, yet I'm the "whackjob"? Please.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on November 04, 2022, 08:07:13 AM
I'm still hoping for sources at some point on some of this stuff. (Though the Reuters dude with the Pfizer board membership thing was definitively a thing, it seems.)

That said, I looked some points up online since you didn't have source material you were immediately sharing, and this study does seem to imply that shingles specifically might not be an issue: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8608757/ 

Though I also found this on immune response more generally for non-Covid things: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9167431/    (It references a study I couldn't find, but if the reference is correct it could be a problem for repeat mRNA vaccinators doing so on short timespan, immune-wise.)

Couldn't find anything for J&J dropping immune response, tho. I think I might go for that if the price is just paid upfront in whether or not the spike proteins produced by the viral vectors do damage or whatever? That said, I'll probably first hope to catch it again while I still have some degree of immunity from the prior catch cuz maybe that might happen, and presumably it gives longer for my spike protein setup(?) to reset in the meantime, I'd guess.

I'm a bit overweight and don't have great breathing stuff and the like, with some reportedly related preexisting conditions for COVID troubles, though I am young and working on my health, so that does factor in. From what I've heard COVID is weird too, in that it can have long term effects and mental stuff it can do to you even if it doesn't put you in the hospital or kill you.

That and it was pretty annoying even when I last had it in terms of symptoms and not being able to see people or go out in public and stuff. I get that J&J is maybe a minor risk short-term, but it sounds like if I don't get damaged on go #1 I'm probably fine and it makes life easier. I appreciate the concern and willingness to engage with me on your part, especially as I know we seem to have disagreements on some of our statistical positions. If I catch it again in time (which I might, seems pretty endemic) I presumably won't need to go in for a booster. But it also sounds like it might be worth it to pick J&J over mRNA for knowing quickly whether I'm affected long term.

If you or whoever else have more sources or points, though, I do at least try to stay informed and hear what different people have to say. This site has interesting discussions that bring me out of my bubble a bit, I feel. Thank y'all for being part of that.  (Now watch me somehow be part of the ~.04% who get myocarditis later on, in my case after already catching an instance of COVID after their original mRNA shot, making this whole conversation irrelevant, lol.   ;D)

I've posted all sorts of stuff in this thread before. As a general rule, if it comes from government or industry sources, it's lies to support the profits they're making and the utterly corrupt way they've bent all the normal processes. I've mentioned Robert Malone, who pioneered the mRNA techniques (and now regrets being jabbed twice), look up the lectures online from JJ Couey (an actual immunologist) who explains the mechanisms by which the jabs work. In particular the shocking things they do.

Unless you're over 70, your actual risk from a covid infection is in the range of fuck all. It's bad flu at worst. However, if you've been jabbed, that calculation changes (look at the UKHSA reports churned out every week showing the awful outcomes for the jabbed in terms of hospitalisation and death "with" covid). The jabs were supposed to prevent those outcomes, but they patently don't. That's without the documented rise in all-cause mortality (often from strokes, heart attack and so on) that have already appeared, and we haven't a clue how much cancer is being caused by mRNA.

The mRNA jabs break the sterilising immune system, which is why the jabbed keep getting covid again and again. They also appear to remove prior immunity, which is why shingles, smallpox and other diseases are having outbreaks. The spike protein causes endolithial damage, which is why the increase in heart attacks, strokes and so on. That's also the root of the observed myocarditis and pericarditis (which contrary to MSM bollocks is not "temporary" but life-limiting) in young people and athletes.

That last one was more than enough to warn me off every going near the fucking things, I have much more in common with a young athlete than I do some 80-something. Being fit and healthy appears to accelerate and amplify the damage caused, which is why we're seeing so many sports people suddenly dying and retiring because they can no longer compete.

You seem to be missing my central point thought: STOP GETTING JABBED. There is no benefit from any of them, unless getting a check on the digital ID system matters to you. There is no health benefit, whatsoever, and you roll the dice on adverse effects.

On that point, just because you can't see an immediate harm, doesn't mean you're not storing it up for the future. As I said, this is a novel, new technology which hasn't even been trialled, that's happening right now. They literally have no idea what the medium-term or long-term effects are going to be.

Luc Montagnier, a Nobel-prize winning French virologist who died recently, thought in 3-5 years everyone jabbed would be dead. I hope he's wrong, but the thing to consider is that amongst the people who've been pushing all this shit are those with the "Depop" agenda who think there are too many people on the planet.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: SHARK on November 04, 2022, 01:48:57 PM
I'm still hoping for sources at some point on some of this stuff. (Though the Reuters dude with the Pfizer board membership thing was definitively a thing, it seems.)

That said, I looked some points up online since you didn't have source material you were immediately sharing, and this study does seem to imply that shingles specifically might not be an issue: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8608757/ 

Though I also found this on immune response more generally for non-Covid things: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9167431/    (It references a study I couldn't find, but if the reference is correct it could be a problem for repeat mRNA vaccinators doing so on short timespan, immune-wise.)

Couldn't find anything for J&J dropping immune response, tho. I think I might go for that if the price is just paid upfront in whether or not the spike proteins produced by the viral vectors do damage or whatever? That said, I'll probably first hope to catch it again while I still have some degree of immunity from the prior catch cuz maybe that might happen, and presumably it gives longer for my spike protein setup(?) to reset in the meantime, I'd guess.

I'm a bit overweight and don't have great breathing stuff and the like, with some reportedly related preexisting conditions for COVID troubles, though I am young and working on my health, so that does factor in. From what I've heard COVID is weird too, in that it can have long term effects and mental stuff it can do to you even if it doesn't put you in the hospital or kill you.

That and it was pretty annoying even when I last had it in terms of symptoms and not being able to see people or go out in public and stuff. I get that J&J is maybe a minor risk short-term, but it sounds like if I don't get damaged on go #1 I'm probably fine and it makes life easier. I appreciate the concern and willingness to engage with me on your part, especially as I know we seem to have disagreements on some of our statistical positions. If I catch it again in time (which I might, seems pretty endemic) I presumably won't need to go in for a booster. But it also sounds like it might be worth it to pick J&J over mRNA for knowing quickly whether I'm affected long term.

If you or whoever else have more sources or points, though, I do at least try to stay informed and hear what different people have to say. This site has interesting discussions that bring me out of my bubble a bit, I feel. Thank y'all for being part of that.  (Now watch me somehow be part of the ~.04% who get myocarditis later on, in my case after already catching an instance of COVID after their original mRNA shot, making this whole conversation irrelevant, lol.   ;D)

I've posted all sorts of stuff in this thread before. As a general rule, if it comes from government or industry sources, it's lies to support the profits they're making and the utterly corrupt way they've bent all the normal processes. I've mentioned Robert Malone, who pioneered the mRNA techniques (and now regrets being jabbed twice), look up the lectures online from JJ Couey (an actual immunologist) who explains the mechanisms by which the jabs work. In particular the shocking things they do.

Unless you're over 70, your actual risk from a covid infection is in the range of fuck all. It's bad flu at worst. However, if you've been jabbed, that calculation changes (look at the UKHSA reports churned out every week showing the awful outcomes for the jabbed in terms of hospitalisation and death "with" covid). The jabs were supposed to prevent those outcomes, but they patently don't. That's without the documented rise in all-cause mortality (often from strokes, heart attack and so on) that have already appeared, and we haven't a clue how much cancer is being caused by mRNA.

The mRNA jabs break the sterilising immune system, which is why the jabbed keep getting covid again and again. They also appear to remove prior immunity, which is why shingles, smallpox and other diseases are having outbreaks. The spike protein causes endolithial damage, which is why the increase in heart attacks, strokes and so on. That's also the root of the observed myocarditis and pericarditis (which contrary to MSM bollocks is not "temporary" but life-limiting) in young people and athletes.

That last one was more than enough to warn me off every going near the fucking things, I have much more in common with a young athlete than I do some 80-something. Being fit and healthy appears to accelerate and amplify the damage caused, which is why we're seeing so many sports people suddenly dying and retiring because they can no longer compete.

You seem to be missing my central point thought: STOP GETTING JABBED. There is no benefit from any of them, unless getting a check on the digital ID system matters to you. There is no health benefit, whatsoever, and you roll the dice on adverse effects.

On that point, just because you can't see an immediate harm, doesn't mean you're not storing it up for the future. As I said, this is a novel, new technology which hasn't even been trialled, that's happening right now. They literally have no idea what the medium-term or long-term effects are going to be.

Luc Montagnier, a Nobel-prize winning French virologist who died recently, thought in 3-5 years everyone jabbed would be dead. I hope he's wrong, but the thing to consider is that amongst the people who've been pushing all this shit are those with the "Depop" agenda who think there are too many people on the planet.

Greetings!

Excellent commentary, Kiero! Very interesting. I think it is important to stay informed, and to actually listen to different ideas and perspectives. Thank you! Keep up the good work! Many people are in denial, Kiero, and prefer to stay, living in their bubble. They don't want to hear the truth, and don't like it one bit when someone comes along and presents the truth to them. They get angry and bitter very quickly, defensive and all too eager to have the truth-tellers stoned and killed.

You have to remember, many people are globalists. They like the idea of an all-powerful, mommy government controlling everything and everyone. They want to be slaves. They love tyranny, and see themselves somehow as being part of the tyrannical system, and somehow therefore benefitting.

Sad, but true. There are many people eager to see you and others that resist the "Official Narratives" to be silenced and crushed. These globalists are terrible people. They are hateful scum. They love tyranny and yearn to be slaves to the tyrant mommy government.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on November 04, 2022, 01:51:25 PM
True. I am not going to forgive you for all the nonsense conspiracy theories you were peddling here.

Fuck you. I never threatened anyone's livelihood or ability to function, or threatened to ostracise them from society because they didn't comply with the jab.

Virtually all of my "conspiracy theories" have proven to be true. Unlike the fallacious narrative morons like you slavishly lapped up.

No really, they were not true. They were never true. Some of them even contradicted each other and had no internal consistency even in theory. They were completely paranoid and moronic. And guys like you probably did end in killing people indirectly by spreading falsehoods and convincing people who otherwise would have gotten the vaccine to not get it. Because you were not just casually disagreeing, you were actively telling people it was all lies and intended to do actual harm and claiming the vaccine was making people more susceptible to Covid and making Covid worse for those people who had been vaccinated and that the vaccine itself was resulting in mass death, all lies that can persuade someone to engage in more dangerous behavior even if they're elderly or have underlying conditions.

And you're not accountable to anyone for that behavior. 90% of people even here didn't agree with your madness but even they won't hold you accountable for it thinking "he's has a right to his bad opinion" is the same as "he shouldn't be told it's bad to do it for spreading that bad opinion."

I am far more concerned about the government and media spreading bad information about Covid that directly got people killed.

But the Government isn't here and is an impersonal thing. Kiero is right here still doing it and you won't call him out for it, though you know he's a whack job.

Yes. This is a personal thing between you and Kiero. Don't go looking for me to validate either of your positions.

Fair nuff
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: dkabq on November 05, 2022, 11:14:48 AM
SHOCKING - Finnish covid deaths OVER REPORTED by 62%
https://petersweden.substack.com/p/finland-overreported

Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on November 09, 2022, 07:02:51 AM
SHOCKING - Finnish covid deaths OVER REPORTED by 62%
https://petersweden.substack.com/p/finland-overreported

Just as I've been saying all along, hugely exaggerated "covid deaths" figures to bolster the fallacious narrative.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: DefNotAnInsiderNopeNoWay on November 09, 2022, 05:05:33 PM
Holy shit, you idiots never learn, do you? SUBSTACK, especially one run by an amateur photographer, alt-right influencer, and holocaust denier is not a valid source, and the fact that you don't already know this shines a 20k-lumen torch on just how desperately stupid and stuck in an echo chamber you are.

Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: dkabq on November 09, 2022, 05:49:07 PM
Holy shit, you idiots never learn, do you? SUBSTACK, especially one run by an amateur photographer, alt-right influencer, and holocaust denier is not a valid source, and the fact that you don't already know this shines a 20k-lumen torch on just how desperately stupid and stuck in an echo chamber you are.

I looked though the articles in the Substack in question and did not see any alt-right or holocaust denial, or any amateur photography. And even if there was, the information cited in the article is stated as being from the Finnish Institute for Health and Welfare. I found article in Yle News (the Finish version of NPR) that corroborates what is in the Substack article:
https://yle.fi/news/3-12668492
https://yle.fi/aihe/s/about-yle/public-service

Even the CDC director has admited that "deaths with covid" can be reported as "deaths from covid"
https://twitter.com/justinbaragona/status/1393919639449649154

Is is all of Substack that you think cannot be a valid source? Or just this Peter Imanuelsen guy?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: 3catcircus on November 09, 2022, 09:21:52 PM
Holy shit, you idiots never learn, do you? SUBSTACK, especially one run by an amateur photographer, alt-right influencer, and holocaust denier is not a valid source, and the fact that you don't already know this shines a 20k-lumen torch on just how desperately stupid and stuck in an echo chamber you are.

I looked though the articles in the Substack in question and did not see any alt-right or holocaust denial, or any amateur photography. And even if there was, the information cited in the article is stated as being from the Finnish Institute for Health and Welfare. I found article in Yle News (the Finish version of NPR) that corroborates what is in the Substack article:
https://yle.fi/news/3-12668492
https://yle.fi/aihe/s/about-yle/public-service

Even the CDC director has admited that "deaths with covid" can be reported as "deaths from covid"
https://twitter.com/justinbaragona/status/1393919639449649154

Is is all of Substack that you think cannot be a valid source? Or just this Peter Imanuelsen guy?

C'mon, man! Don't you know that amateur photographers are all highly suspect?!?!
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Daztur on November 10, 2022, 12:13:09 AM
Holy shit, you idiots never learn, do you? SUBSTACK, especially one run by an amateur photographer, alt-right influencer, and holocaust denier is not a valid source, and the fact that you don't already know this shines a 20k-lumen torch on just how desperately stupid and stuck in an echo chamber you are.

I looked though the articles in the Substack in question and did not see any alt-right or holocaust denial, or any amateur photography. And even if there was, the information cited in the article is stated as being from the Finnish Institute for Health and Welfare. I found article in Yle News (the Finish version of NPR) that corroborates what is in the Substack article:
https://yle.fi/news/3-12668492
https://yle.fi/aihe/s/about-yle/public-service

Even the CDC director has admited that "deaths with covid" can be reported as "deaths from covid"
https://twitter.com/justinbaragona/status/1393919639449649154

Is is all of Substack that you think cannot be a valid source? Or just this Peter Imanuelsen guy?

C'mon, man! Don't you know that amateur photographers are all highly suspect?!?!

Take a look at some of his archived tweets, he's almost as much of a loon as Kiero: https://web.archive.org/web/20160428205144/https://twitter.com/PeterSweden7
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: dkabq on November 10, 2022, 07:17:36 AM
Holy shit, you idiots never learn, do you? SUBSTACK, especially one run by an amateur photographer, alt-right influencer, and holocaust denier is not a valid source, and the fact that you don't already know this shines a 20k-lumen torch on just how desperately stupid and stuck in an echo chamber you are.

I looked though the articles in the Substack in question and did not see any alt-right or holocaust denial, or any amateur photography. And even if there was, the information cited in the article is stated as being from the Finnish Institute for Health and Welfare. I found article in Yle News (the Finish version of NPR) that corroborates what is in the Substack article:
https://yle.fi/news/3-12668492
https://yle.fi/aihe/s/about-yle/public-service

Even the CDC director has admited that "deaths with covid" can be reported as "deaths from covid"
https://twitter.com/justinbaragona/status/1393919639449649154

Is is all of Substack that you think cannot be a valid source? Or just this Peter Imanuelsen guy?

C'mon, man! Don't you know that amateur photographers are all highly suspect?!?!

Take a look at some of his archived tweets, he's almost as much of a loon as Kiero: https://web.archive.org/web/20160428205144/https://twitter.com/PeterSweden7

Ok. Let's go with he's an alt-right, holocaust denier. That does not impute the information in that Substack article, which comes from Yle.

Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Zelen on November 10, 2022, 10:46:01 AM
Take a look at some of his archived tweets, he's almost as much of a loon as Kiero:

He seems to know that men have penises, and that women have vaginas. Seems sane to me.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: KindaMeh on November 10, 2022, 03:51:27 PM
Holy shit, you idiots never learn, do you? SUBSTACK, especially one run by an amateur photographer, alt-right influencer, and holocaust denier is not a valid source, and the fact that you don't already know this shines a 20k-lumen torch on just how desperately stupid and stuck in an echo chamber you are.

I looked though the articles in the Substack in question and did not see any alt-right or holocaust denial, or any amateur photography. And even if there was, the information cited in the article is stated as being from the Finnish Institute for Health and Welfare. I found article in Yle News (the Finish version of NPR) that corroborates what is in the Substack article:
https://yle.fi/news/3-12668492
https://yle.fi/aihe/s/about-yle/public-service

Even the CDC director has admited that "deaths with covid" can be reported as "deaths from covid"
https://twitter.com/justinbaragona/status/1393919639449649154

Is is all of Substack that you think cannot be a valid source? Or just this Peter Imanuelsen guy?

C'mon, man! Don't you know that amateur photographers are all highly suspect?!?!

Take a look at some of his archived tweets, he's almost as much of a loon as Kiero: https://web.archive.org/web/20160428205144/https://twitter.com/PeterSweden7

Ok. Let's go with he's an alt-right, holocaust denier. That does not impute the information in that Substack article, which comes from Yle.

Agreed. I don't like either of those two things, or think them correct. But if a source is a study or based on one or more such things, I say look at the methodology and not just the publisher before dismissing it. That's part of why I say my sources on COVID mortality, including with respect to vaccination rates and the like, still stand. Though I also do think Kiero and his stuff helped me feel less safe about the long term effects of mRNA and even more recently J&J. (Though that latter one still seems better to me, and with the sources I posted may be worth it for me if I don't get reinfected anytime soon instead, specifically in my own opinion and preferences, which I feel all are entitled to. Admittedly it's not just the kill rate that worries me too, admittedly unlikely hospitalization as well as longhauler stuff and mental effects seem like risks in a constantly applied game of roulette.)

I also always suspected that Trump's 1% kill quote on COVID early in the game was correct, because a lot of people probably didn't test for it or bother going in when they had it. This confirms my suspicions, and makes me feel like whatever science was used to justify unjustifiable lockdowns and mandates was off the mark, which my subconscious Confirmation Bias approves of.  ;)
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on November 10, 2022, 09:50:53 PM
  What is the definition of a holocaust denier?  I have seen that moniker tossed around for things that did not involve denying of the holocaust.   I would like a detailed definition of that that means exactly.  Maybe one for white supremacist and racist as well.  Why we are at it, get one on paper for alt right.  Because those words seem to cover broader and broader varieties of people/actions all the time.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on November 11, 2022, 05:58:13 AM
Take a look at some of his archived tweets, he's almost as much of a loon as Kiero: https://web.archive.org/web/20160428205144/https://twitter.com/PeterSweden7

I didn't change the way I lived in 2020, but of course I'm the loon...
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: jhkim on November 11, 2022, 12:25:16 PM
Take a look at some of his archived tweets, he's almost as much of a loon as Kiero: https://web.archive.org/web/20160428205144/https://twitter.com/PeterSweden7

Ok. Let's go with he's an alt-right, holocaust denier. That does not impute the information in that Substack article, which comes from Yle.
  What is the definition of a holocaust denier?  I have seen that moniker tossed around for things that did not involve denying of the holocaust.   I would like a detailed definition of that that means exactly.  Maybe one for white supremacist and racist as well.  Why we are at it, get one on paper for alt right.  Because those words seem to cover broader and broader varieties of people/actions all the time.

For Peter Imanuelsen, the claims of being a Holocaust denier come from posts like this:

(https://i1.wp.com/kwasbeb.se/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/peter17.png?w=1306&ssl=1)
Source: https://kwasbeb.se/2017/05/02/en-av-soppans-alla-ingredienser/

He claims that evidence of his Holocaust denial are fabrications.

If these are true, that doesn't invalidate the covid evidence he cites, but it is significant for context. For example, Holocaust deniers can honestly cite that some claims of how many Jews were killed in the Holocaust are almost certainly overestimates. In their context, such an overestimate shows evidence of how the narrative is being stretched. For Holocaust believers, though, it doesn't deny the basic truth of the Holocaust.

It is similar with the claim that only four thousand people died of covid in Finland instead of six thousand. I haven't checked the details there, but even if true, the issue is how much it changes the narrative.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ratman_tf on November 11, 2022, 04:18:04 PM
Take a look at some of his archived tweets, he's almost as much of a loon as Kiero: https://web.archive.org/web/20160428205144/https://twitter.com/PeterSweden7

Ok. Let's go with he's an alt-right, holocaust denier. That does not impute the information in that Substack article, which comes from Yle.
  What is the definition of a holocaust denier?  I have seen that moniker tossed around for things that did not involve denying of the holocaust.   I would like a detailed definition of that that means exactly.  Maybe one for white supremacist and racist as well.  Why we are at it, get one on paper for alt right.  Because those words seem to cover broader and broader varieties of people/actions all the time.

For Peter Imanuelsen, the claims of being a Holocaust denier come from posts like this:

(https://i1.wp.com/kwasbeb.se/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/peter17.png?w=1306&ssl=1)
Source: https://kwasbeb.se/2017/05/02/en-av-soppans-alla-ingredienser/

He claims that evidence of his Holocaust denial are fabrications.

If these are true, that doesn't invalidate the covid evidence he cites, but it is significant for context. For example, Holocaust deniers can honestly cite that some claims of how many Jews were killed in the Holocaust are almost certainly overestimates. In their context, such an overestimate shows evidence of how the narrative is being stretched. For Holocaust believers, though, it doesn't deny the basic truth of the Holocaust.

It is similar with the claim that only four thousand people died of covid in Finland instead of six thousand. I haven't checked the details there, but even if true, the issue is how much it changes the narrative.

Does a couple thousand change the narrative that dramatically? I also don't think Nazi apologia is that similar to questioning the recent Covid shenanigans. Only at the base question of "How many people died?" But we have direct, recent evidence that Covid numbers have been exaggerated. Nazi apologia is scrutinizing 75ish year old history for discrepancies in order to deny or downplay the henious actions of some of our fellow human beings.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: dkabq on November 11, 2022, 04:24:55 PM
Take a look at some of his archived tweets, he's almost as much of a loon as Kiero: https://web.archive.org/web/20160428205144/https://twitter.com/PeterSweden7

Ok. Let's go with he's an alt-right, holocaust denier. That does not impute the information in that Substack article, which comes from Yle.
  What is the definition of a holocaust denier?  I have seen that moniker tossed around for things that did not involve denying of the holocaust.   I would like a detailed definition of that that means exactly.  Maybe one for white supremacist and racist as well.  Why we are at it, get one on paper for alt right.  Because those words seem to cover broader and broader varieties of people/actions all the time.

For Peter Imanuelsen, the claims of being a Holocaust denier come from posts like this:

(https://i1.wp.com/kwasbeb.se/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/peter17.png?w=1306&ssl=1)
Source: https://kwasbeb.se/2017/05/02/en-av-soppans-alla-ingredienser/

He claims that evidence of his Holocaust denial are fabrications.

If these are true, that doesn't invalidate the covid evidence he cites, but it is significant for context. For example, Holocaust deniers can honestly cite that some claims of how many Jews were killed in the Holocaust are almost certainly overestimates. In their context, such an overestimate shows evidence of how the narrative is being stretched. For Holocaust believers, though, it doesn't deny the basic truth of the Holocaust.

It is similar with the claim that only four thousand people died of covid in Finland instead of six thousand. I haven't checked the details there, but even if true, the issue is how much it changes the narrative.

He is not making the claim. He's just repeating what was published in an article on the Yle website. And Yle is Finland's public service media company. The Finnish Parliament decides on Yle's task and funding.

It is not clear what "narrative" you are referring to.


Checking the details is a simple as clicking on the two links.
https://yle.fi/news/3-12668492
https://yle.fi/aihe/s/about-yle/public-service



Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: dkabq on November 11, 2022, 04:28:48 PM
Take a look at some of his archived tweets, he's almost as much of a loon as Kiero: https://web.archive.org/web/20160428205144/https://twitter.com/PeterSweden7

Ok. Let's go with he's an alt-right, holocaust denier. That does not impute the information in that Substack article, which comes from Yle.
  What is the definition of a holocaust denier?  I have seen that moniker tossed around for things that did not involve denying of the holocaust.   I would like a detailed definition of that that means exactly.  Maybe one for white supremacist and racist as well.  Why we are at it, get one on paper for alt right.  Because those words seem to cover broader and broader varieties of people/actions all the time.

For Peter Imanuelsen, the claims of being a Holocaust denier come from posts like this:

(https://i1.wp.com/kwasbeb.se/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/peter17.png?w=1306&ssl=1)
Source: https://kwasbeb.se/2017/05/02/en-av-soppans-alla-ingredienser/

He claims that evidence of his Holocaust denial are fabrications.

If these are true, that doesn't invalidate the covid evidence he cites, but it is significant for context. For example, Holocaust deniers can honestly cite that some claims of how many Jews were killed in the Holocaust are almost certainly overestimates. In their context, such an overestimate shows evidence of how the narrative is being stretched. For Holocaust believers, though, it doesn't deny the basic truth of the Holocaust.

It is similar with the claim that only four thousand people died of covid in Finland instead of six thousand. I haven't checked the details there, but even if true, the issue is how much it changes the narrative.

Does a couple thousand change the narrative that dramatically? I also don't think Nazi apologia is that similar to questioning the recent Covid shenanigans. Only at the base question of "How many people died?" But we have direct, recent evidence that Covid numbers have been exaggerated. Nazi apologia is scrutinizing 75ish year old history for discrepancies in order to deny or downplay the henious actions of some of our fellow human beings.

Mis-counting by 40% does change the narrative dramatically. It demonstrates that those in charge of doing the counting were either incompetent or purposefully over-counted to stoke fear in the public.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: jhkim on November 11, 2022, 04:56:34 PM
I also don't think Nazi apologia is that similar to questioning the recent Covid shenanigans. Only at the base question of "How many people died?" But we have direct, recent evidence that Covid numbers have been exaggerated. Nazi apologia is scrutinizing 75ish year old history for discrepancies in order to deny or downplay the henious actions of some of our fellow human beings.

We also have direct, recent evidence that covid numbers have been downplayed - like the cover-up of deaths in New York nursing homes, or China's claim that it only had 5000 covid deaths total, which is unbelievably low compared to all other countries. There is a lot of possible uncertainty with covid deaths, because

1) Worldwide, many people died without having taken a covid test.
2) The vast majority of deaths don't have an autopsy and a proven cause of death established.

This has lead to many claims back and forth over how to count in the absence of an autopsy proving cause of death, and how to estimate those who weren't tested.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ratman_tf on November 11, 2022, 06:32:20 PM
I also don't think Nazi apologia is that similar to questioning the recent Covid shenanigans. Only at the base question of "How many people died?" But we have direct, recent evidence that Covid numbers have been exaggerated. Nazi apologia is scrutinizing 75ish year old history for discrepancies in order to deny or downplay the henious actions of some of our fellow human beings.

We also have direct, recent evidence that covid numbers have been downplayed - like the cover-up of deaths in New York nursing homes, or China's claim that it only had 5000 covid deaths total, which is unbelievably low compared to all other countries. There is a lot of possible uncertainty with covid deaths, because

1) Worldwide, many people died without having taken a covid test.
2) The vast majority of deaths don't have an autopsy and a proven cause of death established.

This has lead to many claims back and forth over how to count in the absence of an autopsy proving cause of death, and how to estimate those who weren't tested.

Also the cases that were lumped into dying from Covid, when they died from some other cause, but tested positive for Covid. There's been a lot of shenanigans going on regarding the response to Covid, and plenty of reason for scrutiny and scepticism.

Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: jhkim on November 11, 2022, 07:42:58 PM
I also don't think Nazi apologia is that similar to questioning the recent Covid shenanigans. Only at the base question of "How many people died?" But we have direct, recent evidence that Covid numbers have been exaggerated. Nazi apologia is scrutinizing 75ish year old history for discrepancies in order to deny or downplay the henious actions of some of our fellow human beings.

We also have direct, recent evidence that covid numbers have been downplayed - like the cover-up of deaths in New York nursing homes, or China's claim that it only had 5000 covid deaths total, which is unbelievably low compared to all other countries. There is a lot of possible uncertainty with covid deaths, because

1) Worldwide, many people died without having taken a covid test.
2) The vast majority of deaths don't have an autopsy and a proven cause of death established.

This has lead to many claims back and forth over how to count in the absence of an autopsy proving cause of death, and how to estimate those who weren't tested.

Also the cases that were lumped into dying from Covid, when they died from some other cause, but tested positive for Covid. There's been a lot of shenanigans going on regarding the response to Covid, and plenty of reason for scrutiny and scepticism.

Yes, I absolutely agree there is reason for scrutiny and skepticism. There have been a lot of varying claims from varying sources about it.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ratman_tf on November 11, 2022, 10:06:25 PM
I also don't think Nazi apologia is that similar to questioning the recent Covid shenanigans. Only at the base question of "How many people died?" But we have direct, recent evidence that Covid numbers have been exaggerated. Nazi apologia is scrutinizing 75ish year old history for discrepancies in order to deny or downplay the henious actions of some of our fellow human beings.

We also have direct, recent evidence that covid numbers have been downplayed - like the cover-up of deaths in New York nursing homes, or China's claim that it only had 5000 covid deaths total, which is unbelievably low compared to all other countries. There is a lot of possible uncertainty with covid deaths, because

1) Worldwide, many people died without having taken a covid test.
2) The vast majority of deaths don't have an autopsy and a proven cause of death established.

This has lead to many claims back and forth over how to count in the absence of an autopsy proving cause of death, and how to estimate those who weren't tested.

Also the cases that were lumped into dying from Covid, when they died from some other cause, but tested positive for Covid. There's been a lot of shenanigans going on regarding the response to Covid, and plenty of reason for scrutiny and scepticism.

Yes, I absolutely agree there is reason for scrutiny and skepticism. There have been a lot of varying claims from varying sources about it.

Congratulations. You are now a MEGA MAGA anti-vaxx science denier who eats horse paste.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on November 13, 2022, 07:16:24 AM
We also have direct, recent evidence that covid numbers have been downplayed - like the cover-up of deaths in New York nursing homes, or China's claim that it only had 5000 covid deaths total, which is unbelievably low compared to all other countries. There is a lot of possible uncertainty with covid deaths, because

1) Worldwide, many people died without having taken a covid test.
2) The vast majority of deaths don't have an autopsy and a proven cause of death established.

This has lead to many claims back and forth over how to count in the absence of an autopsy proving cause of death, and how to estimate those who weren't tested.

Sorry, this is utter bullshit. The entire fiction of "covid deaths" falls apart because of the entirely new and novel cause of death they invented in 2020.

Namely that anyone who dies of any cause, within 28/60 days of a positive "covid test" is classed as a covid death. That is garbage and designed to deliberately obfuscate and over-inflate the figures.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: GeekyBugle on November 13, 2022, 01:35:10 PM
Take a look at some of his archived tweets, he's almost as much of a loon as Kiero: https://web.archive.org/web/20160428205144/https://twitter.com/PeterSweden7

Ok. Let's go with he's an alt-right, holocaust denier. That does not impute the information in that Substack article, which comes from Yle.
  What is the definition of a holocaust denier?  I have seen that moniker tossed around for things that did not involve denying of the holocaust.   I would like a detailed definition of that that means exactly.  Maybe one for white supremacist and racist as well.  Why we are at it, get one on paper for alt right.  Because those words seem to cover broader and broader varieties of people/actions all the time.

For Peter Imanuelsen, the claims of being a Holocaust denier come from posts like this:

(https://i1.wp.com/kwasbeb.se/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/peter17.png?w=1306&ssl=1)
Source: https://kwasbeb.se/2017/05/02/en-av-soppans-alla-ingredienser/

He claims that evidence of his Holocaust denial are fabrications.

If these are true, that doesn't invalidate the covid evidence he cites, but it is significant for context. For example, Holocaust deniers can honestly cite that some claims of how many Jews were killed in the Holocaust are almost certainly overestimates. In their context, such an overestimate shows evidence of how the narrative is being stretched. For Holocaust believers, though, it doesn't deny the basic truth of the Holocaust.

It is similar with the claim that only four thousand people died of covid in Finland instead of six thousand. I haven't checked the details there, but even if true, the issue is how much it changes the narrative.

Bolding mine, the only part worth addressing since you yourself admit that the holocaust/nazi charges are just a genetic fallacy.

Let me give you an example:

"Last year there was a 200% increase in murders in city X"

"Last year 3 people were murdered in city X versus 1 murder the year before"

It's the same reason why they stoped publicizing the deaths and changed to cases.

Inflating the numbers makes it easier to scare people.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Stephen Tannhauser on November 14, 2022, 03:48:33 PM
Mis-counting by 40% does change the narrative dramatically. It demonstrates that those in charge of doing the counting were either incompetent or purposefully over-counted to stoke fear in the public.

It also significantly affects the key calculations of case fatality rates and infection fatality rates, which are the figures most often used to indicate appropriate policy responses. If those rates turn out in real life to have been significantly over-estimated, then the case for repeating or retaining those policies goes out the window.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on November 14, 2022, 05:25:35 PM
It also significantly affects the key calculations of case fatality rates and infection fatality rates, which are the figures most often used to indicate appropriate policy responses. If those rates turn out in real life to have been significantly over-estimated, then the case for repeating or retaining those policies goes out the window.

I hate to break it to you, Stephen, but there never was a case for those policies. It was always a lie. Many of the architects looked at China and wondered if they could pull off the same repressive shit, then were pleasantly surprised when the bovine majority willingly went along with it.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Stephen Tannhauser on November 14, 2022, 05:55:34 PM
... there never was a case for those policies. It was always a lie.

Oh, you don't have to convince me of that. I lost all fear of the bug the moment the Diamond Princess stats came out in April 2020. But being able to artificially inflate CFRs and IFRs is one of the reasons the lie was more convincing than it might have been.

That said, I think there was as much Gell-Mann amnesia going on as there was deliberate lying. Gell-Mann amnesia is, of course, as any Michael Crichton fan will know, the effect by which one can read a popular media article on a topic one knows very well, see for oneself how badly the media usually botch it up, and then somehow forget this experience when evaluating media articles on topics one doesn't know well, thereby assuming with no justification whatsoever that they are somehow more accurate in others' expertises than they are in your own.

In this case, everybody involved in trying to manage the pandemic almost certainly engaged in a little, shall we say, constructive exaggeration of their own areas of responsibility, to try to get people to take it more seriously -- the people studying contagion erred on the high side for safety, the people tallying death rates erred on the side of including rather than excluding, the people studying masks exaggerated effectiveness so as to maximize participation, etc., etc., etc. ... and somehow nobody quite realized that if they were doing this, probably everybody else was as well, and the cumulative effect of all those distortions created a runaway panic.

Which is not to say there weren't plenty of deliberate, malicious lies as well -- Pfizer's and Moderna's actions amount to war crimes, as far as I'm concerned -- but only that I don't think we need to assume widespread conscious conspiracy as an explanation for the entire thing. (Except perhaps on China for covering it up, and on the Democratic Party for exploiting it to put favourable election-procedure laws in place.)
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on November 14, 2022, 06:57:13 PM
Oh, you don't have to convince me of that. I lost all fear of the bug the moment the Diamond Princess stats came out in April 2020. But being able to artificially inflate CFRs and IFRs is one of the reasons the lie was more convincing than it might have been.

That said, I think there was as much Gell-Mann amnesia going on as there was deliberate lying. Gell-Mann amnesia is, of course, as any Michael Crichton fan will know, the effect by which one can read a popular media article on a topic one knows very well, see for oneself how badly the media usually botch it up, and then somehow forget this experience when evaluating media articles on topics one doesn't know well, thereby assuming with no justification whatsoever that they are somehow more accurate in others' expertises than they are in your own.

In this case, everybody involved in trying to manage the pandemic almost certainly engaged in a little, shall we say, constructive exaggeration of their own areas of responsibility, to try to get people to take it more seriously -- the people studying contagion erred on the high side for safety, the people tallying death rates erred on the side of including rather than excluding, the people studying masks exaggerated effectiveness so as to maximize participation, etc., etc., etc. ... and somehow nobody quite realized that if they were doing this, probably everybody else was as well, and the cumulative effect of all those distortions created a runaway panic.

Which is not to say there weren't plenty of deliberate, malicious lies as well -- Pfizer's and Moderna's actions amount to war crimes, as far as I'm concerned -- but only that I don't think we need to assume widespread conscious conspiracy as an explanation for the entire thing. (Except perhaps on China for covering it up, and on the Democratic Party for exploiting it to put favourable election-procedure laws in place.)

Absolutely, the Diamond Princess should have been the end of all the sensationalist scaremongering.

I've lost the ability not to see this as orchestrated given how many of the same people keep popping up in different areas. Like the aforementioned James C Smith, connected with Reuters (media), Pfizer (Big Pharma) and the WEF. Goes beyond coincidence.

Then we have slips like this in an interview (Stanley Johnson is the father of former British PM Boris Johnson):

https://twitter.com/MaajidNawaz/status/1591766939436986368

He's not just some random crank, he's former European Commissioner with "business ties" to China. Talking about how all this eco-bollocks with climate change and carbon credits is route into the Social Credit system.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on November 15, 2022, 05:46:16 PM
For those of you who still think it's a coincidence that all these things are happening together. FTX (the Bidens money-laundering outfit of choice in Ukraine) funded the "trial" that concluded Ivermectin doesn't work on covid (even though it does): https://twitter.com/robbystarbuck/status/1592597971727962113

FTX is also a "partner" of the WEF.

No sign of co-ordination or orchestration, though...
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Mistwell on November 15, 2022, 06:59:14 PM
Holy shit, you idiots never learn, do you? SUBSTACK, especially one run by an amateur photographer, alt-right influencer, and holocaust denier is not a valid source, and the fact that you don't already know this shines a 20k-lumen torch on just how desperately stupid and stuck in an echo chamber you are.

I looked though the articles in the Substack in question and did not see any alt-right or holocaust denial, or any amateur photography. And even if there was, the information cited in the article is stated as being from the Finnish Institute for Health and Welfare. I found article in Yle News (the Finish version of NPR) that corroborates what is in the Substack article:
https://yle.fi/news/3-12668492
https://yle.fi/aihe/s/about-yle/public-service

Even the CDC director has admited that "deaths with covid" can be reported as "deaths from covid"
https://twitter.com/justinbaragona/status/1393919639449649154

Is is all of Substack that you think cannot be a valid source? Or just this Peter Imanuelsen guy?

C'mon, man! Don't you know that amateur photographers are all highly suspect?!?!

Take a look at some of his archived tweets, he's almost as much of a loon as Kiero: https://web.archive.org/web/20160428205144/https://twitter.com/PeterSweden7

Ok. Let's go with he's an alt-right, holocaust denier. That does not impute the information in that Substack article, which comes from Yle.

If you look at that archive, he's a stark raving lunatic possibly posting from an insane asylum. He literally thinks the earth is flat, and dinosaurs are living now, and mankind has never gone to space, and Hitler conspired to create Israel, and so many other batshit crazy things. NOTHING compiled by that guy should be trusted.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Zelen on November 16, 2022, 12:48:20 PM
Interesting to note, the TOGETHER trials, that reportedly deboonked Ivermectin as a valid treatment for Covid-19, were funded by the FTX criminal gang.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on November 16, 2022, 12:59:46 PM
Interesting to note, the TOGETHER trials, that reportedly deboonked Ivermectin as a valid treatment for Covid-19, were funded by the FTX criminal gang.

As indeed I said a few posts back.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on November 16, 2022, 03:51:34 PM
Gosh, what could possibly be causing this spike in excess deaths since the scamdemic?

https://twitter.com/i/status/1590456628717187072

In particular people aged 30-59.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: dkabq on November 16, 2022, 03:59:46 PM
A veteran medical examiner who reviewed 4000 Covid deaths explains how many were REALLY from Covid (and how many were of healthy people)
https://alexberenson.substack.com/p/a-veteran-medical-examiner-who-reviewed
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Zelen on November 16, 2022, 05:28:31 PM
A veteran medical examiner who reviewed 4000 Covid deaths explains how many were REALLY from Covid (and how many were of healthy people)
https://alexberenson.substack.com/p/a-veteran-medical-examiner-who-reviewed

Really damning. Hard to believe there are some people out there who still deny the fraud that took place.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: DocJones on November 16, 2022, 06:37:07 PM
I died from covid... but then I got better.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: jhkim on November 17, 2022, 03:44:41 PM
A veteran medical examiner who reviewed 4000 Covid deaths explains how many were REALLY from Covid (and how many were of healthy people)
https://alexberenson.substack.com/p/a-veteran-medical-examiner-who-reviewed

Really damning. Hard to believe there are some people out there who still deny the fraud that took place.

I believe that there have been many misestimations of covid deaths, including lots of overestimations. However, I'm not convinced of this source. He claims to have gone over 4000 covid-related death certificates in Milwaukee County. His conclusion according to the Substack article was this:

Quote
In other words, about 40 percent of all the deaths attributed to Covid had either a marginal link to it or none at all.

The remaining 60 percent came in people who had positive coronavirus tests, had Covid symptoms and were received Covid-specific treatments, and were not at imminent risk of death when they contracted Covid and died.

In those cases, Peterson agreed that the coronavirus was the primary cause of death and reported it that way on their death certificates.

However, when I look at official reports from Milwaukee County, what I see is this:

Quote
There are a total of 2,283 COVID-19 related deaths in Milwaukee County.

Source: https://county.milwaukee.gov/files/county/COVID-19/EPI-Data-Reports/WeeklyReport_Nov10.pdf

So the official county government already reports far less than 4000 death certificates he claims to have gone over. This is consistent with the graphs and numbers the county has been reporting for months. In fact, his estimate of 60% of 4000 gives 2400 which is slightly *higher* than the official death count.

I don't know where the miscommunication is. Maybe the county did exactly what he did in correctly categorizing the certificates? If so, why isn't this mentioned?

To the bigger point, this is part of what I mean by being skeptical. The Substack article implies that the county reported 4000 covid deaths, when according to its public reports it was only 2283. I'd want that explained, and unless it is, I remain skeptical of the source. I don't inherently trust the county either - but in this case, Dr. Peterson and the county are claiming close to the same number.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: GeekyBugle on November 17, 2022, 06:04:16 PM
Who had Logan's Run on their Dystopia Bingo?

Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Zelen on November 17, 2022, 06:21:51 PM
I volunteer Bill.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Daztur on November 17, 2022, 11:42:19 PM
Who had Logan's Run on their Dystopia Bingo?

He didn't even attend that meeting.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on November 18, 2022, 06:59:37 PM
Renewed talk about "personal carbon allowances", which would be linked to your digital ID and central bank digital currency (ie digital money). Carbon being the stick to beat you into compliance with whatever the government deems the right behaviours. As in an alternative spin on China's Social Credit system.

PCAs were discussed in Nature last year: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41893-021-00756-w The scamdemic has been cynically milked to the max to compel people into doing things they wouldn't have been willing to before.

Being up to date with your covid jabs would of course get you a better score, assuming it's not used more punitively. Eaten too much red meat, comrade? No flying for you!
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: dkabq on November 19, 2022, 11:05:59 AM
Stephen Petty - On the effectiveness of masks
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3dnkbKoj4A
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on November 22, 2022, 08:49:38 AM
The documentary Died Suddenly released yesterday: https://www.bitchute.com/video/D4P1M3ZRvpgq/

Won't convince any of those who've already told themselves they're fine, but horrifying. You might have been lucky and got your dose later when they watered them down and stopped storing them at the proper temperature, but if you were an early adopter, you're fucked.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on November 22, 2022, 01:24:46 PM
Big Israeli study shows covid isn't causing myocarditis or pericarditis out of the ordinary: https://www.mdpi.com/2077-0383/11/8/2219

Because it's the jabs that are.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Brad on November 29, 2022, 05:38:37 PM
Are there retards out there still buying into this shamdemic? I mean, I still see people wearing masks every so often, so obviously the psyop worked on them as intended. No amount of evidence, and I mean absolutely none, will ever convince the covidians that their cult is founded on pure horseshit. Just ignore all the evidence and listen the bureaucrats and sycophantic jackasses and get your monthly boosters, morons. Have fun dying of "unknown causes" when everyone knows that fucking up your DNA with experimental drugs is probably a Bad Idea.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ratman_tf on November 30, 2022, 02:26:20 AM
This is now a pandemic of the vaccinated.

Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on November 30, 2022, 06:57:36 AM
Are there retards out there still buying into this shamdemic? I mean, I still see people wearing masks every so often, so obviously the psyop worked on them as intended. No amount of evidence, and I mean absolutely none, will ever convince the covidians that their cult is founded on pure horseshit. Just ignore all the evidence and listen the bureaucrats and sycophantic jackasses and get your monthly boosters, morons. Have fun dying of "unknown causes" when everyone knows that fucking up your DNA with experimental drugs is probably a Bad Idea.

Nope, stupid normies are getting ever more entrenched in their mass delusion.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: dkabq on November 30, 2022, 07:21:03 AM
How it started vs how it's going...
https://twitter.com/WallStreetSilv/status/1597834732209045505?s=20&t=SwJb0ZLhwSjvIOxQ0dvFiA
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on November 30, 2022, 08:03:09 AM
Excess deaths in Australia, with only seven months of data for 2022:

(https://a.disquscdn.com/get?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi0.wp.com%2Fexpose-news.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2022%2F11%2Fimage-284.png&key=jK18f9uiRi_WeCSzbdqPOg&w=600&h=385)

It's a mystery what could be causing that...
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on December 04, 2022, 09:35:11 AM
As is often the case with the bullshit official narrative, they've inverted the risks posed. It isn't the jabbed who are threatened by the unjabbed, but the unjabbed placed in peril by the viral shedding of the test subjects.

In one of the few pieces of research done on the risks of exposure, Peter McCullough posits the mechanisms by which the jabbed can pass on their mRNA and spike proteins: https://petermcculloughmd.substack.com/p/health-of-pure-bloods-threatened

What isn't clear is whether the body's normal immune response can deal with it, when it isn't being delivered directly into the bloodstream. But it is a chilling revelation about associating with the jabbed.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Zelen on December 11, 2022, 12:46:12 PM
Encouraging:

(https://i.imgur.com/Lyh5L4S.png)

Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: dkabq on December 11, 2022, 08:53:03 PM
Nonpharmaceutical Measures for Pandemic Influenza in Nonhealthcare Settings—Personal Protective and Environmental Measures
https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/5/19-0994_article

tl:dr = "Although mechanistic studies support the potential effect of hand hygiene or face masks, evidence from 14 randomized controlled trials of these measures did not support a substantial effect on transmission of laboratory-confirmed influenza. We similarly found limited evidence on the effectiveness of improved hygiene and environmental cleaning. We identified several major knowledge gaps requiring further research, most fundamentally an improved characterization of the modes of person-to-person transmission."


Non-pharmaceutical public health measures for mitigating the risk and impact of epidemic and pandemic influenza
https://www.who.int/publications/i/item/non-pharmaceutical-public-health-measuresfor-mitigating-the-risk-and-impact-of-epidemic-and-pandemic-influenza

tl:dr = "OVERALL RESULT OF EVIDENCE ON FACE MASKS: 1. Ten RCTs were included in the meta-analysis, and there was no evidence that face masks are effective in reducing transmission of laboratory-confirmed influenza"


Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on December 12, 2022, 04:10:30 AM
Clownworld: https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-covid-casualties-vaccines-idUSL1N32R1UI (Reuter's Fact Check: sponsored by Pfizer).

Quick, reach for alternative explanations besides "they don't fucking work".
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: 3catcircus on December 13, 2022, 09:38:31 AM
Nonpharmaceutical Measures for Pandemic Influenza in Nonhealthcare Settings—Personal Protective and Environmental Measures
https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/5/19-0994_article

tl:dr = "Although mechanistic studies support the potential effect of hand hygiene or face masks, evidence from 14 randomized controlled trials of these measures did not support a substantial effect on transmission of laboratory-confirmed influenza. We similarly found limited evidence on the effectiveness of improved hygiene and environmental cleaning. We identified several major knowledge gaps requiring further research, most fundamentally an improved characterization of the modes of person-to-person transmission."


Non-pharmaceutical public health measures for mitigating the risk and impact of epidemic and pandemic influenza
https://www.who.int/publications/i/item/non-pharmaceutical-public-health-measuresfor-mitigating-the-risk-and-impact-of-epidemic-and-pandemic-influenza

tl:dr = "OVERALL RESULT OF EVIDENCE ON FACE MASKS: 1. Ten RCTs were included in the meta-analysis, and there was no evidence that face masks are effective in reducing transmission of laboratory-confirmed influenza"

Ya know, I pointed out these studies like a year ago while arguing on another board (the remnants of the old Circus Maximus) and all the resident leftists pooh-poohed it. It was *never* about science and health and everyone about compliance.  The fact that I've done multiple air wake studies involving CFD of multiple liquids and gases in the course of my job apparently didn't qualify me to have an opinion because "yeah but you weren't studying viruses, mmmaaannn!"

Anytime I see someone referred to as an "expert" who isn't in industry or private practice, I immediately consider them to be a midwit - as a direct result of the past 2 years. Anytime I see ", MPH" listed after one of those "expert's" names, I know I can safely ignore them and can consider them to be a complete moron.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on December 13, 2022, 11:55:04 AM
This is awkward, an autopsy-based study from Germany showing people who "died suddenly" were killed by the jab: https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00392-022-02129-5
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Bruwulf on December 13, 2022, 01:09:42 PM
This is awkward, an autopsy-based study from Germany showing people who "died suddenly" were killed by the jab: https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00392-022-02129-5

I'm not at all surprised. I was one of the "mysterious" cases, about a month after my second round of the vaccine. Despite being outside the "men under 30" window. I nearly died, and was hospitalized for over a month. I'm still not 100%, but I'm mostly over it.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on December 13, 2022, 01:56:49 PM
I'm not at all surprised. I was one of the "mysterious" cases, about a month after my second round of the vaccine. Despite being outside the "men under 30" window. I nearly died, and was hospitalized for over a month. I'm still not 100%, but I'm mostly over it.

Shit, glad you survived. I assume you're not having any more?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Bruwulf on December 13, 2022, 02:06:20 PM
Shit, glad you survived. I assume you're not having any more?

When they can can hold me down and get my pistol away from me.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Zelen on December 13, 2022, 04:08:32 PM
German All-Cause Mortality showed significant elevation in 2021 & 2022

(https://i.imgur.com/XkI2Cpx.png)
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: dkabq on December 13, 2022, 04:34:02 PM
Nonpharmaceutical Measures for Pandemic Influenza in Nonhealthcare Settings—Personal Protective and Environmental Measures
https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/5/19-0994_article

tl:dr = "Although mechanistic studies support the potential effect of hand hygiene or face masks, evidence from 14 randomized controlled trials of these measures did not support a substantial effect on transmission of laboratory-confirmed influenza. We similarly found limited evidence on the effectiveness of improved hygiene and environmental cleaning. We identified several major knowledge gaps requiring further research, most fundamentally an improved characterization of the modes of person-to-person transmission."


Non-pharmaceutical public health measures for mitigating the risk and impact of epidemic and pandemic influenza
https://www.who.int/publications/i/item/non-pharmaceutical-public-health-measuresfor-mitigating-the-risk-and-impact-of-epidemic-and-pandemic-influenza

tl:dr = "OVERALL RESULT OF EVIDENCE ON FACE MASKS: 1. Ten RCTs were included in the meta-analysis, and there was no evidence that face masks are effective in reducing transmission of laboratory-confirmed influenza"

Ya know, I pointed out these studies like a year ago while arguing on another board (the remnants of the old Circus Maximus) and all the resident leftists pooh-poohed it. It was *never* about science and health and everyone about compliance.  The fact that I've done multiple air wake studies involving CFD of multiple liquids and gases in the course of my job apparently didn't qualify me to have an opinion because "yeah but you weren't studying viruses, mmmaaannn!"

Anytime I see someone referred to as an "expert" who isn't in industry or private practice, I immediately consider them to be a midwit - as a direct result of the past 2 years. Anytime I see ", MPH" listed after one of those "expert's" names, I know I can safely ignore them and can consider them to be a complete moron.

As did I. But when you are arguing with someone about their religion, no amount of facts matter.

And I spent 20+ years modeling aerosol generation and transport, but I was not "qualified" either.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on December 13, 2022, 05:46:57 PM
German All-Cause Mortality showed significant elevation in 2021 & 2022

(https://i.imgur.com/XkI2Cpx.png)

As did Australia (posted above) and everywhere else.

Climate change?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Bruwulf on December 13, 2022, 07:37:13 PM

Climate change?

Systemic racism.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: 3catcircus on December 13, 2022, 11:13:08 PM

Climate change?

Systemic racism.

We're back to that? I thought it was the Russians now.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: DocJones on December 14, 2022, 12:47:12 PM
German All-Cause Mortality showed significant elevation in 2021 & 2022

As did Australia (posted above) and everywhere else.

Climate change?
Did the Germans start up those "work camps" again?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on December 15, 2022, 05:30:56 AM
German All-Cause Mortality showed significant elevation in 2021 & 2022

(https://i.imgur.com/XkI2Cpx.png)

Can't see your image, this one?

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fj7P9YHWAAAFc8o?format=jpg&name=medium
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Chris24601 on December 15, 2022, 07:06:38 PM
German All-Cause Mortality showed significant elevation in 2021 & 2022

(https://i.imgur.com/XkI2Cpx.png)

Can't see your image, this one?

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fj7P9YHWAAAFc8o?format=jpg&name=medium
Not Zelen, but yes, that’s the same graphic.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Jaeger on December 18, 2022, 09:28:55 PM
(https://i0.wp.com/www.anonymousconservative.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2022/12/tw-cv3.png?w=854&ssl=1)
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on December 19, 2022, 07:19:37 PM
Fuck, they had to extend the graph out after that huge step change in the trend!

Nothing to see here, though. This is totally normal...

Senior oncologist says the jabs are causing relapses of cancer (https://www.conservativewoman.co.uk/cancer-specialist-says-covid-boosters-are-harming-his-patients/).

Not looking so smart for those who got Pfizer'd or Moderna'd. More critically, though, if you have children and you've allowed them to be jabbed, you're a fucking moron.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Jaeger on December 19, 2022, 07:43:30 PM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FkXtEwGX0BUbn5F?format=jpg&name=medium)

Totally normal. Nothing to see here...
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ghostmaker on December 20, 2022, 09:11:19 AM
At this point, my not-your-damn-doctor advice is:

Do not get the vaccination. If you have been vaccinated, do NOT get the boosters.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Brad on December 20, 2022, 09:48:13 AM
At this point, my not-your-damn-doctor advice is:

Do not get the vaccination. If you have been vaccinated, do NOT get the boosters.

I've been saying this since they were rolled out in 2020 based on the simple position that untested gene therapy seems like a Bad Idea, just as a matter of fact. THE SCIENCE! is what all these sheep have been saying to make you feel stupid if you disregard the "experts," but as an actual scientist I expect the burden of proof to fall upon the ones pushing the vaccines, not me for being hesitant. If you have a wonder cure but feel the need to give out free doughnuts or threaten people's jobs to make them take it, that tells me enough right there it's a bunch of bullshit.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: dkabq on December 21, 2022, 04:41:16 PM
Just a reminder, they literally told us that covid deaths were "deaths with covid", not "deaths from covid".

https://twitter.com/DiamondandSilk/status/1300432905613664257
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on December 21, 2022, 06:17:02 PM
Just a reminder, they literally told us that covid deaths were "deaths with covid", not "deaths from covid".

https://twitter.com/DiamondandSilk/status/1300432905613664257

They had to, when over 95% of deaths "with" covid weren't "from" it.

The "death within 28/60 days of a positive test" was always a bollocks measure, which is why they had to invent it to artificially inflate the apparent death count. Whereas the all-cause mortality barely ticked up during the "pandemic".

Fast forward to a year or two after the jabs, on the other hand, and all-cause mortality is up significantly.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on December 29, 2022, 09:26:57 AM
They're ramping up the hysterical bullshit over China finally giving up on "Zero Covid" (I guess Xi must have killed or imprisoned enough of his dissenters by now) claiming there will be a new wave of super-covid.

Amazing that people still treat any of this horseshit seriously. Covid is and was always the sniffles. Though if you've been mRNA'd, your immune system is now primed to react every time you're exposed to covid. With a roll on the random chance of adverse reactions chart every time. Good luck!
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: KindaMeh on December 29, 2022, 12:28:40 PM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FkXtEwGX0BUbn5F?format=jpg&name=medium)

Totally normal. Nothing to see here...

https://www.science.org/content/article/covid-19-starkly-increases-pregnancy-complications-including-stillbirths-among

Study seemed legit enough to me. But in all fairness, not like it justifies any of the mandates or coercion.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: KindaMeh on December 29, 2022, 12:30:30 PM
Excess mortality and current counts for Covid are indeed weird, though. Partly because it no longer always presents like it used to and there are so many treatment and vaccination factors.

https://www.medpagetoday.com/opinion/faustfiles/101709
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: KindaMeh on December 29, 2022, 12:32:39 PM
Honestly not too convinced all cause mortality is super Covid or Covid vaccine related, but I guess I’ll post this: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(22)00547-3/fulltext
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: KindaMeh on December 29, 2022, 12:35:23 PM
That’s just Massachusetts, tho. So this stuff is more interesting. https://ourworldindata.org/excess-mortality-covid

(Playing devil’s advocate to myself here a bit regarding excess mortality not being linked to COVID and vaccines and cetera.)
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: KindaMeh on December 29, 2022, 12:39:09 PM
Regardless, lockdowns and all mandates regarding COVID have been bs. Even parts of the UK media are starting to acknowledge it: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/12/28/chinas-covid-nightmare-final-proof-lockdowns-total-failure/

Florida doing as well as it did on all levels probably should have clued folks in on the correct sort of approach sooner, though.

Edit: In retrospect these should probably all have been compressed in post count.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on December 29, 2022, 01:11:39 PM
The outbreak on the Diamond Princess was all the evidence we ever needed that covid was a nothingburger.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Jaeger on January 05, 2023, 12:51:27 PM
Totally not the Vax...

(https://i0.wp.com/www.anonymousconservative.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/tw-sg.jpg?w=1125&ssl=1)

(https://y.yarn.co/01c9a96a-0862-4c9a-bcf3-ff51c707b29b_text.gif)

At least 769 recently vaxxed athletes collapsed last year during competition:
https://bigleaguepolitics.com/report-at-least-769-recently-vaxxed-athletes-collapsed-last-year-during-competition/ (https://bigleaguepolitics.com/report-at-least-769-recently-vaxxed-athletes-collapsed-last-year-during-competition/)
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: KindaMeh on January 05, 2023, 02:07:35 PM
Totally not the Vax...

(https://i0.wp.com/www.anonymousconservative.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/tw-sg.jpg?w=1125&ssl=1)

(https://y.yarn.co/01c9a96a-0862-4c9a-bcf3-ff51c707b29b_text.gif)

At least 769 recently vaxxed athletes collapsed last year during competition:
https://bigleaguepolitics.com/report-at-least-769-recently-vaxxed-athletes-collapsed-last-year-during-competition/ (https://bigleaguepolitics.com/report-at-least-769-recently-vaxxed-athletes-collapsed-last-year-during-competition/)

I think there could be something to it, but they made some errors in how they derived the 2021 till now numbers referenced in the first part of that tweet. Apparently even the Associated Press caught that. https://apnews.com/article/fact-check-covid-vaccines-athlete-deaths-1500-989195878254

However where there’s smoke there’s often fire, and your posted source on collapsing athletes especially I think checks out.

On which note, there is supporting evidence that while perhaps not quite on that scale, something’s going on here. Take a look at this and ignore their recommendations at the bottom. The meat is that myocarditis, especially caused by Covid (which is a reaction more common in the vaccinated), is big time affiliated with stuff like this as regards SCD and similar heart troubles. https://www.healthline.com/health/athletes-dying-of-heart-attacks
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on January 05, 2023, 07:11:52 PM
Covid doesn't cause myocarditis in numbers any higher than the flu does (which is to say hardly any), in the unjabbed, ie people with normal biology.

In those who've been mRNA'd, every since covid infection triggers the mechanisms that can lead to heart damage, which is why it's a "common reaction" in the jabbed. But it's the jabs that are the cause, not covid.

Doesn't matter how you slice it, the massive increase in myocarditis and pericarditis has been caused by the jabs. Along with the spike in excess deaths.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Jaeger on January 05, 2023, 07:18:34 PM
mRNA Vaccines Injure the Heart of ALL Vaccine Recipients and Cause Myocarditis in Up to 1 in 27, Study Finds:
https://dailysceptic.org/2022/10/27/mrna-vaccines-injure-the-heart-of-all-vaccine-recipients-and-cause-myocarditis-in-up-to-1-in-27-study-finds/

(https://voxday.net/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/image-3.png)

This is not hard.

Anyone that takes the vax at this point is a moron.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: KindaMeh on January 05, 2023, 08:12:20 PM
Covid doesn't cause myocarditis in numbers any higher than the flu does (which is to say hardly any), in the unjabbed, ie people with normal biology.

In those who've been mRNA'd, every since covid infection triggers the mechanisms that can lead to heart damage, which is why it's a "common reaction" in the jabbed. But it's the jabs that are the cause, not covid.

Doesn't matter how you slice it, the massive increase in myocarditis and pericarditis has been caused by the jabs. Along with the spike in excess deaths.

I mean, it’s more common and severe in the jabbed, that’s been proven. Myocarditis can manifest without Covid in the jabbed as a result of the vax, but is even more likely to trigger if the vaccinated get Covid. Likewise, while I disputed specific figures listed for athlete deaths due to heart attacks and whatnot, I do believe myocarditis is behind a smaller but still notable uptick in athlete deaths, heart problems and cetera.

 The only reason why I noted it was more common for those vaccinated is that myocarditis can indeed also happen in those who are unvaccinated, after they catch Covid. ex: https://pennstatehealthnews.org/2022/09/covid-19-infection-causes-myocarditis/
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: KindaMeh on January 05, 2023, 08:18:48 PM
As for whether folks should take the vax. I think if you’re old and/or have a ton of risk factors, and so forth, might still be worth weighing the question. Not least based on some of the statistics I’ve posted earlier about how it can reduce death and hospitalization rates for Covid specifically. Albeit at a long term risk (which presumably matters a bit less to for instance the old) because we don’t 100% know what it’s gonna do. People currently disagree and there isn’t enough hard data to ban it for everyone in my opinion. I’m not for banning it and I’m not for any of their mandates in favor of it either. I think people should be free to choose, and it’s a contentious enough topic of study and debate that I question whether there’s an obvious one size fits all policy answer.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on January 08, 2023, 04:37:16 PM
As for whether folks should take the vax. I think if you’re old and/or have a ton of risk factors, and so forth, might still be worth weighing the question. Not least based on some of the statistics I’ve posted earlier about how it can reduce death and hospitalization rates for Covid specifically. Albeit at a long term risk (which presumably matters a bit less to for instance the old) because we don’t 100% know what it’s gonna do. People currently disagree and there isn’t enough hard data to ban it for everyone in my opinion. I’m not for banning it and I’m not for any of their mandates in favor of it either. I think people should be free to choose, and it’s a contentious enough topic of study and debate that I question whether there’s an obvious one size fits all policy answer.

Nope, there was never any cause for anyone to take the jabs. They don't work, for one, and they carry a host of both known and unknown side-effects.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: jhkim on January 08, 2023, 06:28:16 PM
As for whether folks should take the vax. I think if you’re old and/or have a ton of risk factors, and so forth, might still be worth weighing the question. Not least based on some of the statistics I’ve posted earlier about how it can reduce death and hospitalization rates for Covid specifically. Albeit at a long term risk (which presumably matters a bit less to for instance the old) because we don’t 100% know what it’s gonna do. People currently disagree and there isn’t enough hard data to ban it for everyone in my opinion. I’m not for banning it and I’m not for any of their mandates in favor of it either. I think people should be free to choose, and it’s a contentious enough topic of study and debate that I question whether there’s an obvious one size fits all policy answer.

Nope, there was never any cause for anyone to take the jabs. They don't work, for one, and they carry a host of both known and unknown side-effects.

Kiero, do you think that's true of all the covid vaccines, or only certain ones - like only the mRNA tech ones, or only those from Trump's "Warp Speed" program?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on January 08, 2023, 06:55:29 PM
Kiero, do you think that's true of all the covid vaccines, or only certain ones - like only the mRNA tech ones, or only those from Trump's "Warp Speed" program?

It's true of all of them. None of them provide immunity to covid, thus are not vaccines (and no I don't accept the bullshit new definition of a vaccine introduced in 2020).

The non-mRNA ones (AZ, J&J, Sputnik, etc) give you a massive dose of spike proteins, which cause endolithial damage often triggering heart attacks and strokes.

The mRNA ones (Pfizer, Moderna) reprogram your body to produce massive doses of spike proteins, bringing all those same vascular risks, with the added bonus of random genetic damage (cancers!) and destroying your sterilising immune system too.

Again the outbreak on the cruise ship the Diamond Princess, long before anyone had heard of the jabs, showed covid was a nothingburger. None of this charade was ever necessary, but it was never about public health.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: KindaMeh on January 08, 2023, 07:34:16 PM
As for whether folks should take the vax. I think if you’re old and/or have a ton of risk factors, and so forth, might still be worth weighing the question. Not least based on some of the statistics I’ve posted earlier about how it can reduce death and hospitalization rates for Covid specifically. Albeit at a long term risk (which presumably matters a bit less to for instance the old) because we don’t 100% know what it’s gonna do. People currently disagree and there isn’t enough hard data to ban it for everyone in my opinion. I’m not for banning it and I’m not for any of their mandates in favor of it either. I think people should be free to choose, and it’s a contentious enough topic of study and debate that I question whether there’s an obvious one size fits all policy answer.

Nope, there was never any cause for anyone to take the jabs. They don't work, for one, and they carry a host of both known and unknown side-effects.

They carry a host of potential side effects, sure, but not I feel to a degree that the old would not potentially have it be a decision they could make for themselves. Or to say that we should take away everybody’s right to choose in the other direction.

COVID strains prior to omicron have like a 1% kill rate, roughly 10 times that of the flu (https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/conditions-and-diseases/coronavirus/coronavirus-disease-2019-vs-the-flu), with a huge (well over 80%) proportion being in the over 60 category if you look at OECD numbers for instance. (https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthandsocialcare/healthandwellbeing/articles/internationalcomparisonsofpossiblefactorsaffectingexcessmortality/2022-12-20) Which on the one hand does mean those under 60 have little to fear at all from Covid, apart from maybe longhauler symptoms, which are weird but still more prevalent in the elderly. But also means…

That’s  what, a 10% or so kill rate in the elderly, with also presumably higher hospitalization rates considering a base 5% of all people who catch Covid strains of that sort are hospitalized? It was enough for the medical community to notice an uptick in hospitalization, for sure. So I think that taking it could be a justifiable decision if one is in that older demographic and rates Covid infection as having a decent chance of happening to oneself.

(Though now that I’ve looked into the age demographics it doesn’t really seem to make sense for someone of my younger age personally even with my risk factors. At least as regards personal risk as opposed to avoiding transmission around the vulnerable or something. Thank y’all for helping me to make up my mind on that. Especially Kiero, without whom I would almost certainly be getting another shot.)

But yeah, not intrinsically a decision worth mocking if properly considered. Because the vaccine is at bare minimum seemingly good at reducing death and hospitalization. https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullarticle/2796235
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-to-compare-covid-deaths-for-vaccinated-and-unvaccinated-people/

To the point where while I doubt it, some people are using it to explain this gap in Republican and Democrat excess deaths, where Democrats have fewer, that started after the vaccines rolled out: https://ysph.yale.edu/news-article/study-finds-large-gap-in-excess-deaths-along-partisan-lines-after-covid-19-vaccines-introduced/

I don’t personally believe that, but I think it also shows how weird all this excess death causality deduction can sometimes be.

Bottom line, I think if you’re older it’s worth considering (which is not the same as definitively being worth taking), but if you’re younger and don’t have a ton of huge risk factors or vulnerable folk in your orbit not as much. I also think it should not be banned or made illegal, which seems to fit pretty well with that.

At the same time, for obvious reasons I hate the mandates for the vax, I hate stuff that is pro-lockdown, I mistrust masking mandates, and I find all sorts of similar measures to be terrible, not least due to political targeting. But on a separate note I do find a lot of the science convincing as regards vaccines working to reduce deaths and hospitalization, that Covid is in its base form more severe than the flu, and other seemingly pretty well backed up points. So that’s kind of where I’m at currently, and I figured I should probably try to share my thoughts as to why.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Brad on January 09, 2023, 11:06:45 AM
They carry a host of potential side effects, sure, but not I feel to a degree that the old would not potentially have it be a decision they could make for themselves. Or to say that we should take away everybody’s right to choose in the other direction.

COVID strains prior to omicron have like a 1% kill rate, roughly 10 times that of the flu (https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/conditions-and-diseases/coronavirus/coronavirus-disease-2019-vs-the-flu), with a huge (well over 80%) proportion being in the over 60 category if you look at OECD numbers for instance. (https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthandsocialcare/healthandwellbeing/articles/internationalcomparisonsofpossiblefactorsaffectingexcessmortality/2022-12-20) Which on the one hand does mean those under 60 have little to fear at all from Covid, apart from maybe longhauler symptoms, which are weird but still more prevalent in the elderly. But also means…

That’s  what, a 10% or so kill rate in the elderly, with also presumably higher hospitalization rates considering a base 5% of all people who catch Covid strains of that sort are hospitalized? It was enough for the medical community to notice an uptick in hospitalization, for sure. So I think that taking it could be a justifiable decision if one is in that older demographic and rates Covid infection as having a decent chance of happening to oneself.

(Though now that I’ve looked into the age demographics it doesn’t really seem to make sense for someone of my younger age personally even with my risk factors. At least as regards personal risk as opposed to avoiding transmission around the vulnerable or something. Thank y’all for helping me to make up my mind on that. Especially Kiero, without whom I would almost certainly be getting another shot.)

But yeah, not intrinsically a decision worth mocking if properly considered. Because the vaccine is at bare minimum seemingly good at reducing death and hospitalization. https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullarticle/2796235
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-to-compare-covid-deaths-for-vaccinated-and-unvaccinated-people/

To the point where while I doubt it, some people are using it to explain this gap in Republican and Democrat excess deaths, where Democrats have fewer, that started after the vaccines rolled out: https://ysph.yale.edu/news-article/study-finds-large-gap-in-excess-deaths-along-partisan-lines-after-covid-19-vaccines-introduced/

I don’t personally believe that, but I think it also shows how weird all this excess death causality deduction can sometimes be.

Bottom line, I think if you’re older it’s worth considering (which is not the same as definitively being worth taking), but if you’re younger and don’t have a ton of huge risk factors or vulnerable folk in your orbit not as much. I also think it should not be banned or made illegal, which seems to fit pretty well with that.

At the same time, for obvious reasons I hate the mandates for the vax, I hate stuff that is pro-lockdown, I mistrust masking mandates, and I find all sorts of similar measures to be terrible, not least due to political targeting. But on a separate note I do find a lot of the science convincing as regards vaccines working to reduce deaths and hospitalization, that Covid is in its base form more severe than the flu, and other seemingly pretty well backed up points. So that’s kind of where I’m at currently, and I figured I should probably try to share my thoughts as to why.

That's a lot of words to make an unconvincing argument.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ratman_tf on January 10, 2023, 04:33:20 AM


The government violated the 1st Amendment by getting media to do their dirty work.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: jhkim on January 10, 2023, 01:02:22 PM
Kiero, do you think that's true of all the covid vaccines, or only certain ones - like only the mRNA tech ones, or only those from Trump's "Warp Speed" program?

It's true of all of them. None of them provide immunity to covid, thus are not vaccines (and no I don't accept the bullshit new definition of a vaccine introduced in 2020).

The non-mRNA ones (AZ, J&J, Sputnik, etc) give you a massive dose of spike proteins, which cause endolithial damage often triggering heart attacks and strokes.

The mRNA ones (Pfizer, Moderna) reprogram your body to produce massive doses of spike proteins, bringing all those same vascular risks, with the added bonus of random genetic damage (cancers!) and destroying your sterilising immune system too.

Thanks for the clear answer. What do you see as a path forward for these claims? Is there any country or major organization in the world that is close to endorsing this view?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Eirikrautha on January 10, 2023, 05:12:14 PM
Thanks for the clear answer. What do you see as a path forward for these claims? Is there any country or major organization in the world that is close to endorsing this view?

Country?  Who cares if a country endorses a scientific claim?  Countries make decisions based on politics, not science, as this entire pandemic has shown.  The endorsement of a country should be viewed as a net negative for any scientific claim...
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: DocJones on January 10, 2023, 07:33:56 PM
Kiero, do you think that's true of all the covid vaccines, or only certain ones - like only the mRNA tech ones, or only those from Trump's "Warp Speed" program?

It's true of all of them. None of them provide immunity to covid, thus are not vaccines (and no I don't accept the bullshit new definition of a vaccine introduced in 2020).

Sinovac is a traditional vaccine containing the inactive Corona virus.  The Chinese government claimed it was 79% effective.
Statistics from countries that allowed it and bought it claim it is only 51% effective.
The statement above that I bolded is incorrect. 
No vaccine ever created is 100% effective in providing immunity and that had never been part of the definition of vaccine.



Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: dkabq on January 10, 2023, 09:02:47 PM
Kiero, do you think that's true of all the covid vaccines, or only certain ones - like only the mRNA tech ones, or only those from Trump's "Warp Speed" program?

It's true of all of them. None of them provide immunity to covid, thus are not vaccines (and no I don't accept the bullshit new definition of a vaccine introduced in 2020).

Sinovac is a traditional vaccine containing the inactive Corona virus.  The Chinese government claimed it was 79% effective.
Statistics from countries that allowed it and bought it claim it is only 51% effective.
The statement above that I bolded is incorrect. 
No vaccine ever created is 100% effective in providing immunity and that had never been part of the definition of vaccine.

St. Fauci begged to differ...

Fauci 2021: Vaccinated people 'can feel save that they are not going to get infected'
https://libertytree.com/liberty-tree/3651
https://twitter.com/YALiberty/status/1612864348845740064
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on January 11, 2023, 04:07:13 AM
Thanks for the clear answer. What do you see as a path forward for these claims? Is there any country or major organization in the world that is close to endorsing this view?

There is no path forward, because the authorities don't want to admit their culpability in the whole scam and are hoping people are dumb enough to let them sweep the whole thing under the carpet.

Nor do I care who "endorses" the truth, that doesn't change it. The criminals involved are still in power and will do their utmost to escape any accountability.

Sinovac is a traditional vaccine containing the inactive Corona virus.  The Chinese government claimed it was 79% effective.
Statistics from countries that allowed it and bought it claim it is only 51% effective.
The statement above that I bolded is incorrect. 
No vaccine ever created is 100% effective in providing immunity and that had never been part of the definition of vaccine.

The Chinese government are serial liars, and injecting people with the inactive coronavirus doesn't work. We already know that from 60+ years of research into vaccines for the common cold. Which is what covid is.

Coronavirus jabs are 0% effective, they do not prevent infection with coronavirus. Which is what real vaccines do. Most of the time. The measles vaccine is 93% effective in preventing infection, it's only in a minority of people that immunity doesn't take. When it works, you cannot be infected with measles.

So spare me the disingenuous bollocks about "no vaccine is 100% effective". Preventing infection was always been the definition of vaccine effectiveness, before 2020.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on January 11, 2023, 05:20:31 AM
Oh dear, the VAERS safety data for the jabs is bad. And the CDC tried to hide it: https://jackanapes.substack.com/p/cdc-finally-released-its-vaers-safety

Excess deaths caused by the jabs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3_bqcvDxvI
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ghostmaker on January 11, 2023, 08:22:54 AM
Sinovac is a traditional vaccine containing the inactive Corona virus.  The Chinese government claimed it was 79% effective.
Statistics from countries that allowed it and bought it claim it is only 51% effective.
The statement above that I bolded is incorrect. 
No vaccine ever created is 100% effective in providing immunity and that had never been part of the definition of vaccine.

The Chinese government are serial liars, and injecting people with the inactive coronavirus doesn't work. We already know that from 60+ years of research into vaccines for the common cold. Which is what covid is.

Coronavirus jabs are 0% effective, they do not prevent infection with coronavirus. Which is what real vaccines do. Most of the time. The measles vaccine is 93% effective in preventing infection, it's only in a minority of people that immunity doesn't take. When it works, you cannot be infected with measles.

So spare me the disingenuous bollocks about "no vaccine is 100% effective". Preventing infection was always been the definition of vaccine effectiveness, before 2020.
Don't forget, it's not like the Chinese have a reputation for good quality control *snickers*.

Cha bu duo, baby.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ratman_tf on January 11, 2023, 10:07:00 AM
Thanks for the clear answer. What do you see as a path forward for these claims? Is there any country or major organization in the world that is close to endorsing this view?

There is no path forward, because the authorities don't want to admit their culpability in the whole scam and are hoping people are dumb enough to let them sweep the whole thing under the carpet.

Nor do I care who "endorses" the truth, that doesn't change it. The criminals involved are still in power and will do their utmost to escape any accountability.

The best we can do personally is never trust the current establishment until all the bad apples have left. A lot of people are going to be hoodwinked into going along with whatever piss-poor excuses they toss out there to cover their asses, but a good portion of the people have seen how terrible things got over Covid. (As this thread demonstrates, not just the posters here, but commenters and pundits outside the forum as well.) The next "crisis" will have a more prompt and determined pushback. We'll see how that shakes out.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: I on January 11, 2023, 02:09:03 PM
Interesting article from WSJ:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/how-deadly-were-the-covid-lockdowns-excess-deaths-alcohol-heart-disease-accidents-life-youth-11673440091

As the subtitle says, "For Americans under 45, there were more excess deaths without the virus in 2020-21 than with it." 

One particular point I agree with from the article is this: 

"If the pandemic response had to involve wholesale disruption of ordinary life, the public-health community should have been actively monitoring its effects on the millions of Americans we knew suffered from drug addiction, diabetes and many other potentially lethal health conditions. No time is too soon to acknowledge and begin to alleviate the collateral damage from Covid policies."

I don't really trust the Wall Street Journal too much, but occasionally you can find a golden nugget among the prose-dung there.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: KindaMeh on January 11, 2023, 03:33:52 PM
Interesting article from WSJ:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/how-deadly-were-the-covid-lockdowns-excess-deaths-alcohol-heart-disease-accidents-life-youth-11673440091

As the subtitle says, "For Americans under 45, there were more excess deaths without the virus in 2020-21 than with it." 

One particular point I agree with from the article is this: 

"If the pandemic response had to involve wholesale disruption of ordinary life, the public-health community should have been actively monitoring its effects on the millions of Americans we knew suffered from drug addiction, diabetes and many other potentially lethal health conditions. No time is too soon to acknowledge and begin to alleviate the collateral damage from Covid policies."

I don't really trust the Wall Street Journal too much, but occasionally you can find a golden nugget among the prose-dung there.

I think it kind of links into this article a bit, which I found recently. Basically saying that lockdowns and overreaction with mandates and the like don’t seem to have been super effective. https://washingtonmonthly.com/2022/04/19/what-sweden-got-right-about-covid/
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: jhkim on January 11, 2023, 05:24:31 PM
Thanks for the clear answer. What do you see as a path forward for these claims? Is there any country or major organization in the world that is close to endorsing this view?

There is no path forward, because the authorities don't want to admit their culpability in the whole scam and are hoping people are dumb enough to let them sweep the whole thing under the carpet.

Nor do I care who "endorses" the truth, that doesn't change it. The criminals involved are still in power and will do their utmost to escape any accountability.

The best we can do personally is never trust the current establishment until all the bad apples have left. A lot of people are going to be hoodwinked into going along with whatever piss-poor excuses they toss out there to cover their asses, but a good portion of the people have seen how terrible things got over Covid. (As this thread demonstrates, not just the posters here, but commenters and pundits outside the forum as well.) The next "crisis" will have a more prompt and determined pushback. We'll see how that shakes out.

Ratman_tf -- Given Kiero's position that all covid vaccines are blatantly fake and harmful, though, it doesn't seem like just a few bad apples. It's those in control of every country in the world from Israel to Russia, and every covid vaccine developer. Within the U.S., Trump lead the development and approval of the vaccines - and took one himself along with encouraging all Americans to get it while touting how safe they are. The mainstream Republicans and all Democrats have all been on board with this.

I'm trying to at least understand Kiero's position. Personally, I don't have much medical knowledge. The medically-trained people I know don't agree with his assessment, so I'm skeptical. Still, I'd hope we can at least communicate.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ratman_tf on January 11, 2023, 07:12:41 PM
Thanks for the clear answer. What do you see as a path forward for these claims? Is there any country or major organization in the world that is close to endorsing this view?

There is no path forward, because the authorities don't want to admit their culpability in the whole scam and are hoping people are dumb enough to let them sweep the whole thing under the carpet.

Nor do I care who "endorses" the truth, that doesn't change it. The criminals involved are still in power and will do their utmost to escape any accountability.

The best we can do personally is never trust the current establishment until all the bad apples have left. A lot of people are going to be hoodwinked into going along with whatever piss-poor excuses they toss out there to cover their asses, but a good portion of the people have seen how terrible things got over Covid. (As this thread demonstrates, not just the posters here, but commenters and pundits outside the forum as well.) The next "crisis" will have a more prompt and determined pushback. We'll see how that shakes out.

Ratman_tf -- Given Kiero's position that all covid vaccines are blatantly fake and harmful, though, it doesn't seem like just a few bad apples. It's those in control of every country in the world from Israel to Russia, and every covid vaccine developer. Within the U.S., Trump lead the development and approval of the vaccines - and took one himself along with encouraging all Americans to get it while touting how safe they are. The mainstream Republicans and all Democrats have all been on board with this.

I'm trying to at least understand Kiero's position. Personally, I don't have much medical knowledge. The medically-trained people I know don't agree with his assessment, so I'm skeptical. Still, I'd hope we can at least communicate.

I can't speak for Kiero. As I see it, the vaccines were new, untested, and experimental. Their efficacy versus their harm has yet to be determined, and likely will be buried under a sea of misinformation from the government and pharmecutical companies who have a vested interest in keeping all this "under control." The measures to combat Covid likely did more harm than good, and the responses to Covid were mostly driven by superstition and panic.

Mostly I can understand Kiero's and other's outrage at how bad things got, outrage that I share, and his frustration at the excuses and denial of * ahem * people defending and excusing the establishment. Dunno if that's an accurate description of Kiero's stance, but that's my impression of it.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on January 11, 2023, 07:13:06 PM
Ratman_tf -- Given Kiero's position that all covid vaccines are blatantly fake and harmful, though, it doesn't seem like just a few bad apples. It's those in control of every country in the world from Israel to Russia, and every covid vaccine developer. Within the U.S., Trump lead the development and approval of the vaccines - and took one himself along with encouraging all Americans to get it while touting how safe they are. The mainstream Republicans and all Democrats have all been on board with this.

I'm trying to at least understand Kiero's position. Personally, I don't have much medical knowledge. The medically-trained people I know don't agree with his assessment, so I'm skeptical. Still, I'd hope we can at least communicate.

It's not a few bad apples, because there's a shit-ton of money and influence involved. Did you know the EU bought 10 billion doses from Pfizer? The Commission President Ursula von der Leyen is under investigation over it (which blows my mind, the EU never cared about transparency or the like before now), she's a close friend of Alfred Bourla.

Lots of people have been bought off. Lots of people have been intimidated. Some are true believers, who really think they're doing good by participating in the scam.

Trump was never really in control of anything and wanted to pin his name to Moderna's product as a "win". He's sketchy on the jabs for that reason.

And "mainstream Republicans and Democrats" - the swamp. They're part of the Deep State who really control what goes on in your country, as those revelations about the CIA's involvement in the Kennedy assassination a few weeks ago proved. Not that it's any better in my country, our swamp is much older and more entrenched.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: DocJones on January 11, 2023, 08:12:56 PM
The Chinese government are serial liars, and injecting people with the inactive coronavirus doesn't work. We already know that from 60+ years of research into vaccines for the common cold. Which is what covid is.
Of course they are liars.  But are you asserting that the 90 countries they distributed SinoVac to are also liars? 
The 51% effective rate comes from Mexico and Brazil studies on SinoVac.

Coronavirus jabs are 0% effective, they do not prevent infection with coronavirus. Which is what real vaccines do.
SinoVac is 51% effective.  That success rate is indeed very bad and for the same reason I posted that one would not be developed two years ago.
It doesn't change the fact that it does meet the old definition of a vaccine and is just as safe as traditional vaccines.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on January 11, 2023, 08:23:37 PM
Of course they are liars.  But are you asserting that the 90 countries they distributed SinoVac to are also liars? 
The 51% effective rate comes from Mexico and Brazil studies on SinoVac.

SinoVac is 51% effective.  That success rate is indeed very bad and for the same reason I posted that one would not be developed two years ago.
It doesn't change the fact that it does meet the old definition of a vaccine and is just as safe as traditional vaccines.

Relative Risk Reduction is not effectiveness. That's marketing bollocks.

Actual Risk Reduction is effectiveness and that floats at around 1% for all the jabs.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: dkabq on January 14, 2023, 04:24:09 PM
Liar, liar, pants on fire:

“Vaccinated people do not carry the virus, and do not get sick.”
- CDC Director Rochelle Walensky

https://twitter.com/healthbyjames/status/1614326948368449539
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ratman_tf on January 19, 2023, 04:11:13 PM
FDA vaccine advisers ‘disappointed’ and ‘angry’ that early data about new Covid-19 booster shot wasn’t presented for review last year

https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/11/health/moderna-bivalent-transparency/index.html
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: dkabq on January 20, 2023, 11:42:16 AM
Another, "Liar, liar, pants on fire!"

https://twitter.com/healthbyjames/status/1616415140517220352
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: DocJones on January 22, 2023, 08:57:24 PM
Scott Adams we were right/
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ratman_tf on January 22, 2023, 09:52:07 PM
Scott Adams we were right/




No one really "won" this. I know Adams is looking at the bottom line of vaccine efficacy, but the social and political fallout is a thing to factor in as well.

Our institutions failed us, and will get away with it. A huge chunk of the population are now in a sunk cost situation where they won't admit this was the wrong approach, or will remain ignorant and compliant for the next disaster/emergency.

We all lost. The only ones who won are a handful of rich and powerful people feasting on the chaos.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on January 23, 2023, 04:47:31 AM
The more you get jabbed, the more you get covid:

(https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/8e6287460113617cac2b3e1ac4e7b5795b80a337828d6160e54e36e7088f7263.png)

Does that show that the jabs are working?

Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on January 23, 2023, 06:16:40 AM
This is awkward, the Office for National Statistics (the government body in the UK reponsible for all official stats) admits they've lied about covid deaths by vaccination status:



Summary: they deliberately inflated the apparent risk of being unjabbed, and with the correct figures vaccination is very obviously dangerous.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on January 24, 2023, 12:37:32 PM
Excess deaths spikes to 3,000 a week in the UK: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-11671587/Massive-spike-excess-deaths-sparks-calls-urgent-investigation.html

It's a mystery what could be causing this...
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: DocJones on January 24, 2023, 01:48:09 PM
The most potent vaccination is getting infected yourself.

Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on January 25, 2023, 10:34:56 AM
This is not satire; the latest twist in the narrative to vilify the unjabbed, is to claim we didn't warn the poor jabbees: https://iqfy.com/unvaccinated-silence/
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ratman_tf on January 25, 2023, 11:08:33 AM
This is not satire; the latest twist in the narrative to vilify the unjabbed, is to claim we didn't warn the poor jabbees: https://iqfy.com/unvaccinated-silence/

Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on January 27, 2023, 01:05:38 PM
Project Veritas released a major expose, showing a Pfizer executive bragging about the corporation hot-housing new viruses. Tumbleweed from most of the legacy media.

Indeed, some of them that reported on it have since removed their stories (like the Daily Mail). Nothing to see here, though.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Brad on January 27, 2023, 03:06:46 PM
Project Veritas released a major expose, showing a Pfizer executive bragging about the corporation hot-housing new viruses. Tumbleweed from most of the legacy media.

Indeed, some of them that reported on it have since removed their stories (like the Daily Mail). Nothing to see here, though.

Hey, he was trying to impress his Grindr date! FAKE NEWS!

I like how they are trying to scrub existence of this dude off the internet...
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: 3catcircus on January 28, 2023, 08:36:04 AM
Would we all agree we are so far past the point of French Revolution activities already?  What more proof do we need that it is time to exercise our rights as declared by the Founding Fathers and shitcan every single cunt running government, given the revelations of the Pfizer project veritas video, decades of purposefully stealing classified info by Biden, etc. Do we all agree that government, as current staffed, is full of corrupt people who need to not be in government?

For non-USians - good luck, we at least in the US have guns and a growing number of average everyday people ready and willing to open the door to armed insurrection, given the agenda of the globalists.

Joe Rogan explains those in his podcast when he talks about the leftists who commit violence (such as antifa) vs average citizens who have experience with violence in war and who've showed extended levels of restraint.  Compare the US to Brazil in this regard.  People in the US are inching closer to crossing that line.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ratman_tf on February 01, 2023, 04:22:05 AM


MRNA vaccines been good to uncle Bill.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Zelen on February 01, 2023, 07:40:19 PM

Cochrane Reviews publishes a study that looks at 11 RCT of preventative measures: https://www.cochranelibrary.com/cdsr/doi/10.1002/14651858.CD006207.pub6/full

TL;DR paper/cloths masks don't work. N95 masks don't work. Washing your hands works a little bit.

Bonus reading material: Masks probably increase infections (https://nitter.1d4.us/Fynnderella1/status/1620470557409157120?s=20&t=tnFlV-trDfp6XzZaoeR7jw)
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: dkabq on February 02, 2023, 07:06:11 AM

Cochrane Reviews publishes a study that looks at 11 RCT of preventative measures: https://www.cochranelibrary.com/cdsr/doi/10.1002/14651858.CD006207.pub6/full

TL;DR paper/cloths masks don't work. N95 masks don't work. Washing your hands works a little bit.

Bonus reading material: Masks probably increase infections (https://nitter.1d4.us/Fynnderella1/status/1620470557409157120?s=20&t=tnFlV-trDfp6XzZaoeR7jw)

I invite everyone that is pro-mask/pro-mask mandates to please provide the RTC studies (not confounded observational studies) that are the technical basis for your position.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on February 02, 2023, 07:19:55 AM


MRNA vaccines been good to uncle Bill.

Fortunately, time has not been kind to the old cunt.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Brad on February 02, 2023, 07:42:48 AM
I invite everyone that is pro-mask/pro-mask mandates to please provide the RTC studies (not confounded observational studies) that are the technical basis for your position.

This crap is about control, and nothing else. The Covidian religion is by far the most insidious psyop in modern history, and has resulted in a massive number of otherwise "normal" people drinking the Kool-Aid. The damage is done, there is no going back to actual science.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ratman_tf on February 02, 2023, 03:57:03 PM
It's Time for the Scientific Community to Admit We Were Wrong About COVID and It Cost Lives

https://www.newsweek.com/its-time-scientific-community-admit-we-were-wrong-about-coivd-it-cost-lives-opinion-1776630
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on February 02, 2023, 05:27:17 PM
Deaths from the jabs deliberately obscured by not counting anyone who died within 14 days of being jabbed as "vaccinated": https://twitter.com/goddeketal/status/1620814237588127744

(https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/959569a8c24f8e690d80439f764034c926c12e999e3ba6ae2b8ac5368d4129b1.jpg?w=600&h=341)

This is the reason why - most of the deaths caused directly by the jabs occur within that 14 day period. They were allowed to get away with this wheeze. Those people were vaccinated, indeed that's likely to have been what killed them, yet they were included in the "unvaccinated" stats.

So those of you claiming lots of unjabbed died while the rollouts were happening were simply wrong.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on February 02, 2023, 06:11:10 PM
And just as the "conspiracy theorists" been saying, Pfizer know the mRNA jabs mess with fertility: https://twitter.com/Project_Veritas/status/1621274788734943233

Depopulation "Children of Men" style...
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on February 03, 2023, 08:46:38 AM
Another one of those pesky "conspiracy theories" that's coming true. 15-minute Cities. First it was Oxford a few months ago, now Southend in Essex announced they'll be imposing one too.

There's a list:

(https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/4901005cc008ed52d9c48525833a52eeb70df80982925a9c7c0ccd72a00801fa.jpg?w=600&h=1190) (https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/a944ebfd8851a34dd1dce65bd47a1963ad4391db7335ff70a0ecf89112dc109b.jpg?w=600&h=960)

That covers pretty much everywhere in the UK. You will stay in your sector, Citizen, or be fined! Depends of course upon digitial ID, with a Social Credit system and CBDC that can be automatically deducted from your account.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ghostmaker on February 03, 2023, 09:17:41 AM
Something to remember about these model 'fifteen minute' cities is that cramming people into relatively small quarters is a GREAT way to not only wind up with social pressure cookers, a la 'Block Wars' from Judge Dredd, but it also makes diseases spread VERY easily.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on February 03, 2023, 09:34:45 AM
Something to remember about these model 'fifteen minute' cities is that cramming people into relatively small quarters is a GREAT way to not only wind up with social pressure cookers, a la 'Block Wars' from Judge Dredd, but it also makes diseases spread VERY easily.

It's certainly not being done for our benefit, just like every other element of the climate scam. Like the coronabollocks that preceeded it, as usual it's about social control.

Apparently, some people in Oxford have been ripping up the bollards and pouring concrete into the holes overnight to sabotage the boundaries between zones. I hope there will be a lot more resistance before this thing gets going.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Grognard GM on February 03, 2023, 10:03:38 PM
Whenever anyone says "awful thing is happening, and it's SO awful and scary, that there's literally nothing we shouldn't do to stop it," (ala Covid/Climate Crisis) you know you're on a course to bodies piled up.

Anyone screaming that the world is doomed in 10-20 years, and they're sobbing and genuinely believe it, there's nothing that person won't do to stop bad thing. I mean vs the apocalypse, what lesser atrocity wouldn't be justified? Even...heroic?

That's why we should all be very worried.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: I on February 04, 2023, 08:49:26 AM
It's Time for the Scientific Community to Admit We Were Wrong About COVID and It Cost Lives

https://www.newsweek.com/its-time-scientific-community-admit-we-were-wrong-about-coivd-it-cost-lives-opinion-1776630

I'm shocked that this was allowed to be published.  The writer still might be blackballed from his profession, though.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Garry G on February 04, 2023, 01:11:54 PM
Something to remember about these model 'fifteen minute' cities is that cramming people into relatively small quarters is a GREAT way to not only wind up with social pressure cookers, a la 'Block Wars' from Judge Dredd, but it also makes diseases spread VERY easily.

It's certainly not being done for our benefit, just like every other element of the climate scam. Like the coronabollocks that preceeded it, as usual it's about social control.

Apparently, some people in Oxford have been ripping up the bollards and pouring concrete into the holes overnight to sabotage the boundaries between zones. I hope there will be a lot more resistance before this thing gets going.

Katie Hopkins fan eh? I'm actually surprised, you've always been a bit of a mental but that's a good one even for you. I honestly can't see how making things convenient for people and reducing emissions is such a big deal. Even if you deny climate change like the nutter you are you surely want to reduce exhaust fumes around you and your family? I noticed my old home of Dundee isn't there because it's a small compact city that because it absorbed the villages around it already had this in place. I honestly miss the convenience of having everything on my doorstep, are you a fan of travelling for stuff?

Of course while you're having this imaginary battle the UK government is taking away rights to protest and strike right in front of you. There is a concerted attack on our basic rights but it's not a shadowy conspiracy with villains out of the X-Files, it's right out there in front of you. You shouldn't be worried about shops being local, however hellish that may seem, you should be worried about not being able to protest about it.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on February 04, 2023, 05:17:44 PM
Katie Hopkins fan eh? I'm actually surprised, you've always been a bit of a mental but that's a good one even for you. I honestly can't see how making things convenient for people and reducing emissions is such a big deal. Even if you deny climate change like the nutter you are you surely want to reduce exhaust fumes around you and your family? I noticed my old home of Dundee isn't there because it's a small compact city that because it absorbed the villages around it already had this in place. I honestly miss the convenience of having everything on my doorstep, are you a fan of travelling for stuff?

Of course while you're having this imaginary battle the UK government is taking away rights to protest and strike right in front of you. There is a concerted attack on our basic rights but it's not a shadowy conspiracy with villains out of the X-Files, it's right out there in front of you. You shouldn't be worried about shops being local, however hellish that may seem, you should be worried about not being able to protest about it.

Christ on a fucking bike, you really are an imbecile, aren't you? 15 minute cities aren't about improving people's local amenities, they're about locking them in to their immediate locality and penalising them if they travel beyond it.

As for the climate scam, The Science is utter horseshit. Human output of CO2 is irrelevant, and you're not going to get away with conflating it with controlling air pollution. Two completely different things.

Nor is removing the right to protest an either/or. It's part of the same agenda. Government-backed cunts like Extinction Rebellion are used to make people support the removal of that right, so we can't protest against the globalist agenda when they start cracking down. But useful idiots like you can't see that.

Go back to sleep Garry.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Brad on February 04, 2023, 09:31:09 PM
Katie Hopkins fan eh? I'm actually surprised, you've always been a bit of a mental but that's a good one even for you. I honestly can't see how making things convenient for people and reducing emissions is such a big deal. Even if you deny climate change like the nutter you are you surely want to reduce exhaust fumes around you and your family? I noticed my old home of Dundee isn't there because it's a small compact city that because it absorbed the villages around it already had this in place. I honestly miss the convenience of having everything on my doorstep, are you a fan of travelling for stuff?

Of course while you're having this imaginary battle the UK government is taking away rights to protest and strike right in front of you. There is a concerted attack on our basic rights but it's not a shadowy conspiracy with villains out of the X-Files, it's right out there in front of you. You shouldn't be worried about shops being local, however hellish that may seem, you should be worried about not being able to protest about it.

Imagine thinking 15 minute cities is about convenience. I mean, convenience of CONTROLLING you, yeah. People like you are the ones who sat around when the fiery hail starting destroying Sodom, wondering why your wine cup was empty.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Garry G on February 05, 2023, 11:49:45 AM
Katie Hopkins fan eh? I'm actually surprised, you've always been a bit of a mental but that's a good one even for you. I honestly can't see how making things convenient for people and reducing emissions is such a big deal. Even if you deny climate change like the nutter you are you surely want to reduce exhaust fumes around you and your family? I noticed my old home of Dundee isn't there because it's a small compact city that because it absorbed the villages around it already had this in place. I honestly miss the convenience of having everything on my doorstep, are you a fan of travelling for stuff?

Of course while you're having this imaginary battle the UK government is taking away rights to protest and strike right in front of you. There is a concerted attack on our basic rights but it's not a shadowy conspiracy with villains out of the X-Files, it's right out there in front of you. You shouldn't be worried about shops being local, however hellish that may seem, you should be worried about not being able to protest about it.

Christ on a fucking bike, you really are an imbecile, aren't you? 15 minute cities aren't about improving people's local amenities, they're about locking them in to their immediate locality and penalising them if they travel beyond it.

As for the climate scam, The Science is utter horseshit. Human output of CO2 is irrelevant, and you're not going to get away with conflating it with controlling air pollution. Two completely different things.

Nor is removing the right to protest an either/or. It's part of the same agenda. Government-backed cunts like Extinction Rebellion are used to make people support the removal of that right, so we can't protest against the globalist agenda when they start cracking down. But useful idiots like you can't see that.

Go back to sleep Garry.

So Extinction Rebellion is all part of the Government conspiracy to remove your rights? You're going to have to give me an explanations about how all this works, diagrams might be good. Frankly I'm doubtful that any given minister in the current Government can tie their own shoes without help.

I'm not sure how the Globalists are trying to crack down on freedom of movement. Aren't they the same people you got it right up to by voting for Brexit? As far as I can see peeps like you have done more damage to my freedom of movement than some council asking me to drive less. I like having the shops just down the road just as I liked being able to travel and work freely across a continent.

Who exactly are you following so sheepishly Kiero? I know the Oxford thing was big with Katie Hopkins who seems like such a balanced person. How does this come across to other people irl when you tell them about the great Globalist conspiracy that's coming to get us? Are you organising to fight it and if so how?

There are conspiracies but they tend to be very short-term and mostly about fairly crappy things like making a bit of money. Most politicians are doing their job because they actually believe in stuff, many believe pretty shitty stuff but there you go. There is a problem with the media through people like Murdoch but that's also quite petty and rubbish. There are no Illuminati working on a World Government just a load of people with different agendas that may be good or bad for people. Fox Mulder is a fictional character played by an actor.

Wake up and grow up Kiero. You're not the genius who sees beyond what the sheeples do. You're a smart guy with political views I could never agree with who has been sucked into a weird created world.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ghostmaker on February 06, 2023, 07:34:23 AM
It's Time for the Scientific Community to Admit We Were Wrong About COVID and It Cost Lives

https://www.newsweek.com/its-time-scientific-community-admit-we-were-wrong-about-coivd-it-cost-lives-opinion-1776630

I'm shocked that this was allowed to be published.  The writer still might be blackballed from his profession, though.
Don't think of it as an apology. Think of it as that attempted plea for amnesty not too long ago that was so roundly mocked.

This is all about, 'Please don't drag us out and force us to explain ourselves!'.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: GeekyBugle on February 11, 2023, 05:04:19 PM
The Chinese government are serial liars, and injecting people with the inactive coronavirus doesn't work. We already know that from 60+ years of research into vaccines for the common cold. Which is what covid is.
Of course they are liars.  But are you asserting that the 90 countries they distributed SinoVac to are also liars? 
The 51% effective rate comes from Mexico and Brazil studies on SinoVac.

Coronavirus jabs are 0% effective, they do not prevent infection with coronavirus. Which is what real vaccines do.

SinoVac is 51% effective.  That success rate is indeed very bad and for the same reason I posted that one would not be developed two years ago.
It doesn't change the fact that it does meet the old definition of a vaccine and is just as safe as traditional vaccines.


México (our government) does lie ALL the time about everything and anything.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: GeekyBugle on February 11, 2023, 05:09:07 PM
Would we all agree we are so far past the point of French Revolution activities already?  What more proof do we need that it is time to exercise our rights as declared by the Founding Fathers and shitcan every single cunt running government, given the revelations of the Pfizer project veritas video, decades of purposefully stealing classified info by Biden, etc. Do we all agree that government, as current staffed, is full of corrupt people who need to not be in government?

For non-USians - good luck, we at least in the US have guns and a growing number of average everyday people ready and willing to open the door to armed insurrection, given the agenda of the globalists.

Joe Rogan explains those in his podcast when he talks about the leftists who commit violence (such as antifa) vs average citizens who have experience with violence in war and who've showed extended levels of restraint.  Compare the US to Brazil in this regard.  People in the US are inching closer to crossing that line.

Hey, no worries, I'm fucked, but maybe my boy can escape (legally) to the good ole USA.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ratman_tf on February 16, 2023, 04:03:17 AM
Drain Bamage.

Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on February 22, 2023, 08:34:38 AM
The ONS finally releases the all-cause mortality data, by vaccination status, for the UK. They've been withholding it for months, and had been trying to avoid correcting their errors in the phasing.

It doesn't look good for the jab-pushers: https://usmortality.substack.com/p/englands-all-cause-mortality-data

All-cause mortality, at every age, is worse if you've been jabbed:

(https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/41fc371f3feee5112f8d1892b19bbc3bfdeb446ae75b289269b9cce1e2663acd.jpg?w=600&h)

The big driver of this of course, is non-covid deaths:

(https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/276fd54d95aa20d3b537a8b5e355e87823ee18c593483aa19fd8cd98b0e83edc.jpg?w=600&h=277)

All those inexplicably sudden heart attacks, strokes and so on caused by the jabs.

But even covid deaths don't look good, considering the jabs supposedly make that a less likely outcome:

(https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/e764ff7bd03e9c74f6bd001ae8da1a4197fc40211e31465f2bc2c94b08f489fc.jpg?w=600&h=277)

Are you jabbed feeling conned yet? Because you were. Who the fuck knows what health emergencies might be waiting you in the next few years, these are just the immediate ones following jabbination.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: jhkim on February 22, 2023, 01:34:17 PM
The ONS finally releases the all-cause mortality data, by vaccination status, for the UK. They've been withholding it for months, and had been trying to avoid correcting their errors in the phasing.

It doesn't look good for the jab-pushers: https://usmortality.substack.com/p/englands-all-cause-mortality-data

All-cause mortality, at every age, is worse if you've been jabbed:

(https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/41fc371f3feee5112f8d1892b19bbc3bfdeb446ae75b289269b9cce1e2663acd.jpg?w=600&h)

Kiero, that is the absolute number of deaths, not the mortality rate. Roughly 90% of the UK population are vaccinated, so of course the absolute number of deaths is higher. From your own source, here is the all-cause mortality rate graph:

(https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/w_1456,c_limit,f_webp,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fd824d26f-d0f7-49ac-813c-efd5dc372087_1920x1080.png) (https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fd824d26f-d0f7-49ac-813c-efd5dc372087_1920x1080.png)

To be clear - I'm just posting the rate graph from your own source. I have no judgement on the accuracy of that source either way. If you go to your own link, that is the graph they show for mortality rate. Go to the section marked "Mortality Rates by Age and Vaccination Status".

This makes a poor case for vaccination, as the unvaccinated status in pink sits in the middle of the graph. The highest rates are in red for "first dose, at least 21 days ago", but other groups are often below those for unvaccinated. The paper points out that this has no "Ever Vaccinated" category, and suggests that the combined statistics might make more clear that unvaccinated is not worse than "ever vaccinated".

All of the rates are close to each other, which suggests that the vaccine isn't making a big difference either way. That is a point against vaccine advocates -- but also a point against those saying that the vaccine is dramatically increasing heart attack or other deaths.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Brad on February 22, 2023, 03:29:09 PM
Now do this one.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/02/21/opinion/do-mask-mandates-work.html
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: jhkim on February 23, 2023, 04:35:49 PM
Now do this one.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/02/21/opinion/do-mask-mandates-work.html

I generally agree with the opinion piece, as far as the science goes. Mask use seems to have little or no effect at a population level. As the study says, there is still some chance that there is a minor mitigation at the individual level -- but if there is an effect it is a small one.

Many liberals have inflated belief in the effectiveness of masks, and they've been shown to be wrong.

I've tried to steadily convince people I know of this, and it is becoming more widely accepted.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: dkabq on February 23, 2023, 05:10:06 PM
Now do this one.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/02/21/opinion/do-mask-mandates-work.html

I generally agree with the opinion piece, as far as the science goes. Mask use seems to have little or no effect at a population level. As the study says, there is still some chance that there is a minor mitigation at the individual level -- but if there is an effect it is a small one.

Many liberals have inflated belief in the effectiveness of masks, and they've been shown to be wrong.

I've tried to steadily convince people I know of this, and it is becoming more widely accepted.

Btw, that masks have little to no effect at the population level was known pre-covid. Hence, St. Fauci was telling truth in March 2020 when he said that. There was no new studies/science between then and April 2020 when he lied and said that masks (even one made from an old t-shirt) worked.

Just goes to show that most people, even ones you would consider to be "smart", couldn't logic themselves out of a wet paper bag.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ratman_tf on February 23, 2023, 08:41:13 PM
Now do this one.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/02/21/opinion/do-mask-mandates-work.html

I generally agree with the opinion piece, as far as the science goes. Mask use seems to have little or no effect at a population level. As the study says, there is still some chance that there is a minor mitigation at the individual level -- but if there is an effect it is a small one.

Many liberals have inflated belief in the effectiveness of masks, and they've been shown to be wrong.

I've tried to steadily convince people I know of this, and it is becoming more widely accepted.

Btw, that masks have little to no effect at the population level was known pre-covid. Hence, St. Fauci was telling truth in March 2020 when he said that. There was no new studies/science between then and April 2020 when he lied and said that masks (even one made from an old t-shirt) worked.

Just goes to show that most people, even ones you would consider to be "smart", couldn't logic themselves out of a wet paper bag.

I went to the dentist today, and they're still masked and asking patients to wear masks.
I humor them because he's a good dentist and I don't want to make a stink, but It reminds me that even medical professionals are mortal, and fall for narratives over science and reason.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Brad on February 23, 2023, 08:59:48 PM
The fact the FUCKING BOX says they don’t stop transmission wasn’t enough, was it…
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Zelen on February 23, 2023, 09:00:05 PM
Masks don't work.
Lockdowns don't work.
The injections don't work (and are killing people).

It'd be nice for the people who were wrong, and who deliberately encouraged & cheered on years of worldwide psychological (and physical) torture to at least admit they were wrong and make efforts at restitution.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: dkabq on February 23, 2023, 09:01:14 PM
Now do this one.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/02/21/opinion/do-mask-mandates-work.html

I generally agree with the opinion piece, as far as the science goes. Mask use seems to have little or no effect at a population level. As the study says, there is still some chance that there is a minor mitigation at the individual level -- but if there is an effect it is a small one.

Many liberals have inflated belief in the effectiveness of masks, and they've been shown to be wrong.

I've tried to steadily convince people I know of this, and it is becoming more widely accepted.

Btw, that masks have little to no effect at the population level was known pre-covid. Hence, St. Fauci was telling truth in March 2020 when he said that. There was no new studies/science between then and April 2020 when he lied and said that masks (even one made from an old t-shirt) worked.

Just goes to show that most people, even ones you would consider to be "smart", couldn't logic themselves out of a wet paper bag.

I went to the dentist today, and they're still masked and asking patients to wear masks.
I humor them because he's a good dentist and I don't want to make a stink, but It reminds me that even medical professionals are mortal, and fall for narratives over science and reason.

I have the same situation with my dentist. She's good, so I can live with her being a midwit.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ratman_tf on February 23, 2023, 10:22:19 PM
The fact the FUCKING BOX says they don’t stop transmission wasn’t enough, was it…

People don't think when they're scared.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on February 24, 2023, 06:54:54 AM
People don't think when they're scared.

What's more incredible is that people were (and in some cases still are) scared of the sniffles.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ratman_tf on February 24, 2023, 07:24:35 AM
People don't think when they're scared.

What's more incredible is that people were (and in some cases still are) scared of the sniffles.

Hey, when the news first came out, I was concerned. China was reacting like it was The Stand by Steven King. Maybe they were full of shit, or maybe something really bad got out of hand and we were looking at some super-cold-ebola cross that was gonna spread around the world.
Of course, as the pandemic went on, people should have modulated their response to the actual facts. But they stayed scared and compliant.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: DocJones on February 24, 2023, 04:58:38 PM
I went to the dentist today, and they're still masked and asking patients to wear masks.
I humor them because he's a good dentist and I don't want to make a stink, but It reminds me that even medical professionals are mortal, and fall for narratives over science and reason.
I don't mind the dentist being masked as many of them did it way before the pandemic for the same reasons surgeons do.
They don't want to cough or sneeze into your face while they're doing their thing.
But how in the hell does he get into your mouth when you're wearing the mask?  ;-)
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: jhkim on February 24, 2023, 06:06:34 PM
I don't mind the dentist being masked as many of them did it way before the pandemic for the same reasons surgeons do.
They don't want to cough or sneeze into your face while they're doing their thing.
But how in the hell does he get into your mouth when you're wearing the mask?  ;-)

For my dentist, they asked that I mask until I was in the chair for the work.

As you imply, masking was absolutely the norm in health care for decades prior to the pandemic in many situations, because of respiratory viruses like the cold and flu. It wasn't even just dentists and surgeons. So I disagree with dkabq:

Btw, that masks have little to no effect at the population level was known pre-covid.

There was some evidence of this in the previous 10 years, but it was not considered settled. There was vastly more attention and data collection on masks during the covid-19 pandemic than for decades before it. Prior to the pandemic, masking was a standard practice for dealing with respiratory infected patients and exposed health care workers. In Korea and Japan, it was a common practice in the civilian population as well.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ratman_tf on February 25, 2023, 12:26:30 AM
I went to the dentist today, and they're still masked and asking patients to wear masks.
I humor them because he's a good dentist and I don't want to make a stink, but It reminds me that even medical professionals are mortal, and fall for narratives over science and reason.
I don't mind the dentist being masked as many of them did it way before the pandemic for the same reasons surgeons do.
They don't want to cough or sneeze into your face while they're doing their thing.
But how in the hell does he get into your mouth when you're wearing the mask?  ;-)

I got one of those "eating masks" of course!

I swear, when I saw those, I knew people had lost their goddamn minds over Covid.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: dkabq on February 25, 2023, 07:36:43 AM
I don't mind the dentist being masked as many of them did it way before the pandemic for the same reasons surgeons do.
They don't want to cough or sneeze into your face while they're doing their thing.
But how in the hell does he get into your mouth when you're wearing the mask?  ;-)

For my dentist, they asked that I mask until I was in the chair for the work.

As you imply, masking was absolutely the norm in health care for decades prior to the pandemic in many situations, because of respiratory viruses like the cold and flu. It wasn't even just dentists and surgeons. So I disagree with dkabq:

Btw, that masks have little to no effect at the population level was known pre-covid.

There was some evidence of this in the previous 10 years, but it was not considered settled. There was vastly more attention and data collection on masks during the covid-19 pandemic than for decades before it. Prior to the pandemic, masking was a standard practice for dealing with respiratory infected patients and exposed health care workers. In Korea and Japan, it was a common practice in the civilian population as well.

It was the norm for the dentist to wear a mask, not for me to be required to wear a mask while sitting in the waiting room. And I never had to wear a mask at the doctor's office, urgent care, or hospital.

As for common practice in the civilian population in Korea and Japan, that does not mean that it works.
https://www.cochrane.org/news/featured-review-physical-interventions-interrupt-or-reduce-spread-respiratory-viruses

Moreover, in my limited (1 month) time in Japan, I only saw the occasional old person wearing a mask.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ratman_tf on February 25, 2023, 08:08:11 AM
I don't mind the dentist being masked as many of them did it way before the pandemic for the same reasons surgeons do.
They don't want to cough or sneeze into your face while they're doing their thing.
But how in the hell does he get into your mouth when you're wearing the mask?  ;-)

For my dentist, they asked that I mask until I was in the chair for the work.

As you imply, masking was absolutely the norm in health care for decades prior to the pandemic in many situations, because of respiratory viruses like the cold and flu. It wasn't even just dentists and surgeons. So I disagree with dkabq:

Btw, that masks have little to no effect at the population level was known pre-covid.

There was some evidence of this in the previous 10 years, but it was not considered settled. There was vastly more attention and data collection on masks during the covid-19 pandemic than for decades before it. Prior to the pandemic, masking was a standard practice for dealing with respiratory infected patients and exposed health care workers. In Korea and Japan, it was a common practice in the civilian population as well.

It was the norm for the dentist to wear a mask, not for me to be required to wear a mask while sitting in the waiting room. And I never had to wear a mask at the doctor's office, urgent care, or hospital.

Yes. It was (is) Covid hysteria. Nothing to do with previous mask practices.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: jhkim on February 25, 2023, 02:56:52 PM
Yes. It was (is) Covid hysteria. Nothing to do with previous mask practices.

I agree that there is plenty of Covid hysteria. But prior to the pandemic, there was a common belief that masks helped reduce transmission of respiratory viruses. Medical professionals commonly used them with this intent.

So while I agree that there was and is hysteria over Covid, I don't agree that it was "nothing to do" with previous mask practices.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: dkabq on February 25, 2023, 03:11:21 PM
Yes. It was (is) Covid hysteria. Nothing to do with previous mask practices.

I agree that there is plenty of Covid hysteria. But prior to the pandemic, there was a common belief that masks helped reduce transmission of respiratory viruses. Medical professionals commonly used them with this intent.

So while I agree that there was and is hysteria over Covid, I don't agree that it was "nothing to do" with previous mask practices.

Pre-covid CDC guidance was that general population masking was not recommended, based on the (limited, as you noted) studies to-date. And as the Cochrane study showed, there has been no change in that conclusion.
https://www.cochrane.org/news/featured-review-physical-interventions-interrupt-or-reduce-spread-respiratory-viruses

Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ratman_tf on February 25, 2023, 05:01:25 PM
Yes. It was (is) Covid hysteria. Nothing to do with previous mask practices.

I agree that there is plenty of Covid hysteria. But prior to the pandemic, there was a common belief that masks helped reduce transmission of respiratory viruses. Medical professionals commonly used them with this intent.

So while I agree that there was and is hysteria over Covid, I don't agree that it was "nothing to do" with previous mask practices.

Before Covid, I never wore a mask, and never saw anyone wear a mask in public. No public or private establishment requested or required mask wearing for customers or patrons.

I think you are confusing the idea that a doctor may wear a mask while on the job, with the general public, wearing masks all the time.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: dkabq on February 25, 2023, 06:06:31 PM
Yes. It was (is) Covid hysteria. Nothing to do with previous mask practices.

I agree that there is plenty of Covid hysteria. But prior to the pandemic, there was a common belief that masks helped reduce transmission of respiratory viruses. Medical professionals commonly used them with this intent.

So while I agree that there was and is hysteria over Covid, I don't agree that it was "nothing to do" with previous mask practices.

Before Covid, I never wore a mask, and never saw anyone wear a mask in public. No public or private establishment requested or required mask wearing for customers or patrons.

I think you are confusing the idea that a doctor may wear a mask while on the job, with the general public, wearing masks all the time.

At the rehab hospital my wife works at, they only wore N95s pre-covid during flu season if you didn't get the flu vax. There are also specific situations where a patient's precautions would require wearing an N95.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Eirikrautha on February 25, 2023, 06:09:21 PM
Yes. It was (is) Covid hysteria. Nothing to do with previous mask practices.

I agree that there is plenty of Covid hysteria. But prior to the pandemic, there was a common belief that masks helped reduce transmission of respiratory viruses. Medical professionals commonly used them with this intent.

So while I agree that there was and is hysteria over Covid, I don't agree that it was "nothing to do" with previous mask practices.

Before Covid, I never wore a mask, and never saw anyone wear a mask in public. No public or private establishment requested or required mask wearing for customers or patrons.

I think you are confusing the idea that a doctor may wear a mask while on the job, with the general public, wearing masks all the time.

No, he's not "confusing" anything.  He's distorting to the point bordering on outright falsehood.  For example, a huge component of mask wearing in Asian countries (especially China) was in direct response to the terrible air quality in many of the major cities.  Surgical masks will stop large particulate matter, but never has any reputable organization asserted they would stop respiratory viruses.  It even says they won't on the box (and Asians can read).  So he's deliberately conflating doctors attempting to keep large droplets from entering wounds, the mouth, etc. and Asians in Beijing who can't breathe outside due to pollution with public mask mandates in the US.  Only the stupid or malicious could do that.  And jhkim isn't stupid...
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Eirikrautha on February 25, 2023, 06:22:21 PM
Yes. It was (is) Covid hysteria. Nothing to do with previous mask practices.

I agree that there is plenty of Covid hysteria. But prior to the pandemic, there was a common belief that masks helped reduce transmission of respiratory viruses. Medical professionals commonly used them with this intent.

So while I agree that there was and is hysteria over Covid, I don't agree that it was "nothing to do" with previous mask practices.

Before Covid, I never wore a mask, and never saw anyone wear a mask in public. No public or private establishment requested or required mask wearing for customers or patrons.

I think you are confusing the idea that a doctor may wear a mask while on the job, with the general public, wearing masks all the time.

At the rehab hospital my wife works at, they only wore N95s pre-covid during flu season if you didn't get the flu vax. There are also specific situations where a patient's precautions would require wearing an N95.

The statement he was responding to from jhkim was:
Quote
But prior to the pandemic, there was a common belief that masks helped reduce transmission of respiratory viruses. Medical professionals commonly used them with this intent.

Which is a bald-faced falsehood.  NEVER, in all my encounters with medical professionals did any EVER wear a surgical mask unless it was in surgery, dealing with an open wound, or a dentist hovering over my mouth.  And I have never been asked to wear a mask before Covid, in any medical context, EVER (even when undergoing surgery).  The GP doctors didn't even wear masks when I was seeing them because of symptoms of a respiratory virus!  So this was not a "common" use of the masks, even by doctors.

And 95% of people had never heard of an N95 mask before covid; nor had they been asked to wear them outside of occupational restrictions.  So jhkim is being deliberately disingenuous (unless he is a drooling moron).  Pick one...
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: dkabq on February 25, 2023, 06:24:33 PM
Yes. It was (is) Covid hysteria. Nothing to do with previous mask practices.

I agree that there is plenty of Covid hysteria. But prior to the pandemic, there was a common belief that masks helped reduce transmission of respiratory viruses. Medical professionals commonly used them with this intent.

So while I agree that there was and is hysteria over Covid, I don't agree that it was "nothing to do" with previous mask practices.

Before Covid, I never wore a mask, and never saw anyone wear a mask in public. No public or private establishment requested or required mask wearing for customers or patrons.

I think you are confusing the idea that a doctor may wear a mask while on the job, with the general public, wearing masks all the time.

At the rehab hospital my wife works at, they only wore N95s pre-covid during flu season if you didn't get the flu vax. There are also specific situations where a patient's precautions would require wearing an N95.

The statement he was responding to from jhkim was:
Quote
But prior to the pandemic, there was a common belief that masks helped reduce transmission of respiratory viruses. Medical professionals commonly used them with this intent.

Which is a bald-faced falsehood.  NEVER, in all my encounters with medical professionals did any EVER wear a surgical mask unless it was in surgery, dealing with an open wound, or a dentist hovering over my mouth.  And I have never been asked to wear a mask before Covid, in any medical context, EVER (even when undergoing surgery).  The GP doctors didn't even wear masks when I was seeing them because of symptoms of a respiratory virus!  So this was not a "common" use of the masks, even by doctors.

And 95% of people had never heard of an N95 mask before covid; nor had they been asked to wear them outside of occupational restrictions.  So jhkim is being deliberately disingenuous (unless he is a drooling moron).  Pick one...

No argument from me.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Zelen on February 25, 2023, 06:35:19 PM
Masking, even in a medical, surgical setting, is grounded more in superstition than actual science.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: jhkim on February 25, 2023, 09:25:58 PM
At the rehab hospital my wife works at, they only wore N95s pre-covid during flu season if you didn't get the flu vax. There are also specific situations where a patient's precautions would require wearing an N95.
NEVER, in all my encounters with medical professionals did any EVER wear a surgical mask unless it was in surgery, dealing with an open wound, or a dentist hovering over my mouth.  And I have never been asked to wear a mask before Covid, in any medical context, EVER (even when undergoing surgery).  The GP doctors didn't even wear masks when I was seeing them because of symptoms of a respiratory virus!  So this was not a "common" use of the masks, even by doctors.

And 95% of people had never heard of an N95 mask before covid; nor had they been asked to wear them outside of occupational restrictions.  So jhkim is being deliberately disingenuous (unless he is a drooling moron).  Pick one...
No argument from me.

WTF is this shit?!? dkabq -- you just said that the hospital that your wife works at used N95 masks to reduce flu transmission, then you agree with Eirikrautha saying that this sort of thing never happened, and that I'm being disingenuous for making such claims?

dkabq -- why did they use N95 masks during flu season for un-flu-vaccinated patients?? Was it a weird fashion statement that was pure coincidence? Or did they think that the mask would reduce the chance of transmission?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: dkabq on February 25, 2023, 09:45:09 PM
At the rehab hospital my wife works at, they only wore N95s pre-covid during flu season if you didn't get the flu vax. There are also specific situations where a patient's precautions would require wearing an N95.
NEVER, in all my encounters with medical professionals did any EVER wear a surgical mask unless it was in surgery, dealing with an open wound, or a dentist hovering over my mouth.  And I have never been asked to wear a mask before Covid, in any medical context, EVER (even when undergoing surgery).  The GP doctors didn't even wear masks when I was seeing them because of symptoms of a respiratory virus!  So this was not a "common" use of the masks, even by doctors.

And 95% of people had never heard of an N95 mask before covid; nor had they been asked to wear them outside of occupational restrictions.  So jhkim is being deliberately disingenuous (unless he is a drooling moron).  Pick one...
No argument from me.

WTF is this shit?!? dkabq -- you just said that the hospital that your wife works at used N95 masks to reduce flu transmission, then you agree with Eirikrautha saying that this sort of thing never happened, and that I'm being disingenuous for making such claims?

dkabq -- why did they use N95 masks during flu season for un-flu-vaccinated patients?? Was it a weird fashion statement that was pure coincidence? Or did they think that the mask would reduce the chance of transmission?

I agreed with Eirkrautha because like him (stealing his words):
"NEVER, in all my encounters with medical professionals did any EVER wear a surgical mask unless it was in surgery, dealing with an open wound, or a dentist hovering over my mouth.  And I have never been asked to wear a mask before Covid, in any medical context, EVER (even when undergoing surgery).  The GP doctors didn't even wear masks when I was seeing them because of symptoms of a respiratory virus!"

As for the rehab hospital my wife works at, I double-checked with her, and it was not N95s, it was surgical masks they had to wear if they didn't get the flu vax. My apologies for the error.

I assume they were forced to wear them for a similar stupid reason that, depending on # of local cases, I have to wear a stupid cloth mask at work, sitting in an 8'x8' cubicle (with a door), when there is nobody else on my floor. I wouldn't mind so much if they would issue me a red one, as the red cloth masks "outperformed" the other color cloth mask and both colors of surgical masks in the Bangladesh study. I assume it is because red goes faster.

I have no idea if you are being disingenuous or not, so I do not agree with Eirkrautha on that point.


Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: dkabq on February 26, 2023, 07:05:20 AM
The Evidence Is In: Population-Wide Masking Was a Spectacular Failure
https://davidthunder.substack.com/p/the-evidence-is-in-population-wide
https://davidthunder.substack.com/p/the-evidence-is-in-population-wide#footnote-1-104612564

tl:dr
"The authors of the study conclude that “the pooled results of RCTs did not show a clear reduction in respiratory viral infection with the use of medical/surgical masks. There were no clear differences between the use of medical/surgical masks compared with N95/P2 respirators in healthcare workers when used in routine care to reduce respiratory viral infection."

Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: jhkim on February 26, 2023, 05:38:05 PM
At the rehab hospital my wife works at, they only wore N95s pre-covid during flu season if you didn't get the flu vax. There are also specific situations where a patient's precautions would require wearing an N95.
I agreed with Eirkrautha because like him (stealing his words):
"NEVER, in all my encounters with medical professionals did any EVER wear a surgical mask unless it was in surgery, dealing with an open wound, or a dentist hovering over my mouth.  And I have never been asked to wear a mask before Covid, in any medical context, EVER (even when undergoing surgery).  The GP doctors didn't even wear masks when I was seeing them because of symptoms of a respiratory virus!"

As for the rehab hospital my wife works at, I double-checked with her, and it was not N95s, it was surgical masks they had to wear if they didn't get the flu vax. My apologies for the error.

I'm confused, because these seem to contradict each other. Eirikrautha says that pre-covid, masks were *only* used in (1) surgery, (2) open wounds, and (3) dentistry.

dkabq -- pre-covid, your wife was working at a rehab hospital where they used masks. If they didn't get the flu vax, you're saying that they had a wear a surgical mask during flu season - and there were times when a patient wore a mask. It sounds to me like those masks were not for one of Eirikrautha's three cases.

---

This is important to me when I'm trying to actually convince people that masks are not useful. Now I'd say about 90% of my community have given up on masks, but there are still some holdouts. So people can change their minds with evidence. It's just not quick or easy. If I come up to a friend and say "You're stupid for ever thinking masks worked. No one ever thought they did!" -- then they would just dismiss me. But if I acknowledge previous mask use and cite the more recent studies, then I can make progress.

Prior to covid, masks weren't used all the time routinely because it wasn't considered that important to minimize that risk. Catching the flu... no big deal. It wasn't worth the effort. In cases where it was really important not to spread, though, masks were used to reduce risk. If the flu was going around the hospital and causing problems, or if there was an immuno-compromised patient, etc.

What changed with covid was that normal practices were warped. People became much more concerned about minimizing risk of spread - many to the point of hysteria.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on February 26, 2023, 06:20:57 PM
What changed with covid was that normal practices were warped. People became much more concerned about minimizing risk of spread - many to the point of hysteria.

Which was by design. A huge proportion of the population are now primed with fear to do as they're told, no matter how stupid the instructions they are given.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ratman_tf on February 26, 2023, 09:29:42 PM
What changed with covid was that normal practices were warped. People became much more concerned about minimizing risk of spread - many to the point of hysteria.

Which was by design. A huge proportion of the population are now primed with fear to do as they're told, no matter how stupid the instructions they are given.

(https://media.meer.com/attachments/42a20fd2e63e1d03b2d678112a261f500285e3c4/store/fill/410/308/76f0f35c7a595a99d876579a172576ab888d639ad0ab6c71ca65f9480936/Klaus-Schwab.jpg)
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: dkabq on February 26, 2023, 09:56:17 PM
At the rehab hospital my wife works at, they only wore N95s pre-covid during flu season if you didn't get the flu vax. There are also specific situations where a patient's precautions would require wearing an N95.
I agreed with Eirkrautha because like him (stealing his words):
"NEVER, in all my encounters with medical professionals did any EVER wear a surgical mask unless it was in surgery, dealing with an open wound, or a dentist hovering over my mouth.  And I have never been asked to wear a mask before Covid, in any medical context, EVER (even when undergoing surgery).  The GP doctors didn't even wear masks when I was seeing them because of symptoms of a respiratory virus!"

As for the rehab hospital my wife works at, I double-checked with her, and it was not N95s, it was surgical masks they had to wear if they didn't get the flu vax. My apologies for the error.

I'm confused, because these seem to contradict each other. Eirikrautha says that pre-covid, masks were *only* used in (1) surgery, (2) open wounds, and (3) dentistry.

dkabq -- pre-covid, your wife was working at a rehab hospital where they used masks. If they didn't get the flu vax, you're saying that they had a wear a surgical mask during flu season - and there were times when a patient wore a mask. It sounds to me like those masks were not for one of Eirikrautha's three cases.

---

This is important to me when I'm trying to actually convince people that masks are not useful. Now I'd say about 90% of my community have given up on masks, but there are still some holdouts. So people can change their minds with evidence. It's just not quick or easy. If I come up to a friend and say "You're stupid for ever thinking masks worked. No one ever thought they did!" -- then they would just dismiss me. But if I acknowledge previous mask use and cite the more recent studies, then I can make progress.

Prior to covid, masks weren't used all the time routinely because it wasn't considered that important to minimize that risk. Catching the flu... no big deal. It wasn't worth the effort. In cases where it was really important not to spread, though, masks were used to reduce risk. If the flu was going around the hospital and causing problems, or if there was an immuno-compromised patient, etc.

What changed with covid was that normal practices were warped. People became much more concerned about minimizing risk of spread - many to the point of hysteria.

My apologies for being confusing. My personal experience is like Eirikrautha's. My wife's experience at her hospital is different from mine.

I have no idea how my wife's work figured that getting the flu vax was an equivalent reduction in the risk of catching flu as wearing a surgical mask. Personally, I think they just pulled it out of their ass.

Also, my wife does physical therapy on patients, which requires her to be in close proximity/physical contact. She now wears a properly fitted, properly worn, properly cleaned N95 mask, a cover mask, and a face shield. I agree in that use-case (i.e., possibly being sneezed/coughed/spit on) it makes sense.

Normal practice pre-covid was that because there was not sufficient evidence that wearing a mask (cloth, surgical) reduced the spread of respiratory viruses, it was not recommended that the general public wear masks (cloth, surgical). Why St. Fauci, et al. flip-flopped on that between March and April 2020 is unknown to me, but it certainty was not due to any further information appearing in that 6-week period.

In addition, you had to know that it was a ho-ax when they let the restaurants reopen and you had to wear a mask to walk from the door to your table, but once at your table you could take off your mask. I guess that when sitting, one is below the covid layer -- it's SCIENCE!(tm). Not to mention all of the "rules for thee but not for me" instances.

I have given up trying to convince people that wearing a mask is pointless (in most use-cases). Wear a mask (even when you are alone in your car), carry chicken bones in your pocket -- I don't care. Anything I post at this point is just me yelling into the abyss; it's easier than going outside to yell at clouds.
 
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Brad on February 27, 2023, 03:51:39 AM
Why are you entertaining this communist...he is simply trying to justify this mask bullshit to make himself not feel like a reactionary moron.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ghostmaker on February 27, 2023, 09:04:33 AM
Oops.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/covid-origin-china-lab-leak-807b7b0a?mod=hp_lead_pos1

But tell me more about how this was a conspiracy theory.

Then face the wall.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Brad on February 27, 2023, 10:46:32 AM
Oops.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/covid-origin-china-lab-leak-807b7b0a?mod=hp_lead_pos1

But tell me more about how this was a conspiracy theory.

Then face the wall.

We already knew this a couple years ago. Maria Bartiromo played the fucking clip from 2020 of her discussing this with Tom Cotton this morning. The dude they called a racist for daring to say it was of Chinese origin. I saw some reports that it came from a Chinese lab, yes, but possibly actually originated in a biolab in the Ukraine. Of course that is just another conspiracy I am sure that will be proven correct in another couple years after the Democrat party is done laundering money over there.

Cue jhkim with reasons why this is problematic...
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Zelen on February 27, 2023, 11:07:30 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/GcHDa2l.png)

Pretty good results being a conspiracy theorist these days.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: SHARK on February 27, 2023, 07:21:16 PM
Greetings!

Yeah, I love it. All of us "mean, hate-filled, Consiracy-Theorist, racist monsters"--were right on fucking everything. Remember how all these Marxist, traitor scumbags called President Trump a terrible, hate-filled racist for calling the fucking virus the "China virus"? Because it CAME FROM FUCKING CHINA.

Yeah. The truth is now coming out--but honstly, the truth was always there. The cock-sucking Marxist Libtards just didn't like the TRUTH--because they love tyranny, and they want America to be destroyed.

Fucking scum. They all need tobe bathed in napalm.

"Oh, SHARK! You're so angry and full of hate!" Whaa some more, bitches.

Think about the tens of thouands, maybe MILLIONS--of Americans that lost their small businesses, their stores and shops, their careers, as they were bankrupted, fired, cancelled...by all the the screeching, Libtard scumbags.

Think about the waterfall effects for their kids, for losing their homes, livelihoods, everything, and being reduced to poverty from DECADES OF WORK....just so these fuckers could prance around in shrieking hysteria?

Think about the hundreds of thousands of MILITARY SERVICEMEN that lost their entire careers--because they would nt get the ucking jab?

Oh, why can't we just be tolerant, and sweet, and forgiving?

Yeah. The Libtard scumbags so need the napalm. The more, the better.

Semper Fidelis,


Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Chris24601 on February 27, 2023, 10:17:40 PM
Greetings!

Yeah, I love it. All of us "mean, hate-filled, Consiracy-Theorist, racist monsters"--were right on fucking everything. Remember how all these Marxist, traitor scumbags called President Trump a terrible, hate-filled racist for calling the fucking virus the "China virus"? Because it CAME FROM FUCKING CHINA.

Yeah. The truth is now coming out--but honstly, the truth was always there. The cock-sucking Marxist Libtards just didn't like the TRUTH--because they love tyranny, and they want America to be destroyed.

Fucking scum. They all need tobe bathed in napalm.

"Oh, SHARK! You're so angry and full of hate!" Whaa some more, bitches.

Think about the tens of thouands, maybe MILLIONS--of Americans that lost their small businesses, their stores and shops, their careers, as they were bankrupted, fired, cancelled...by all the the screeching, Libtard scumbags.

Think about the waterfall effects for their kids, for losing their homes, livelihoods, everything, and being reduced to poverty from DECADES OF WORK....just so these fuckers could prance around in shrieking hysteria?

Think about the hundreds of thousands of MILITARY SERVICEMEN that lost their entire careers--because they would nt get the ucking jab?

Oh, why can't we just be tolerant, and sweet, and forgiving?

Yeah. The Libtard scumbags so need the napalm. The more, the better.

Semper Fidelis,
No need for napalm. I would instead simply sentence them to receive vaxx boosters every three months from the batches sent to predominately Red states and drink only the water bottled from East Palestine they’ve declared is safe to deink.

How they respond to that sentence will tell you everything you need to know.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: SHARK on February 27, 2023, 11:23:14 PM
Greetings!

Yeah, I love it. All of us "mean, hate-filled, Consiracy-Theorist, racist monsters"--were right on fucking everything. Remember how all these Marxist, traitor scumbags called President Trump a terrible, hate-filled racist for calling the fucking virus the "China virus"? Because it CAME FROM FUCKING CHINA.

Yeah. The truth is now coming out--but honstly, the truth was always there. The cock-sucking Marxist Libtards just didn't like the TRUTH--because they love tyranny, and they want America to be destroyed.

Fucking scum. They all need tobe bathed in napalm.

"Oh, SHARK! You're so angry and full of hate!" Whaa some more, bitches.

Think about the tens of thouands, maybe MILLIONS--of Americans that lost their small businesses, their stores and shops, their careers, as they were bankrupted, fired, cancelled...by all the the screeching, Libtard scumbags.

Think about the waterfall effects for their kids, for losing their homes, livelihoods, everything, and being reduced to poverty from DECADES OF WORK....just so these fuckers could prance around in shrieking hysteria?

Think about the hundreds of thousands of MILITARY SERVICEMEN that lost their entire careers--because they would nt get the ucking jab?

Oh, why can't we just be tolerant, and sweet, and forgiving?

Yeah. The Libtard scumbags so need the napalm. The more, the better.

Semper Fidelis,
No need for napalm. I would instead simply sentence them to receive vaxx boosters every three months from the batches sent to predominately Red states and drink only the water bottled from East Palestine they’ve declared is safe to deink.

How they respond to that sentence will tell you everything you need to know.

Greetings!

*Laughing* Hah! Yeah, Chris! That sounds good too, my friend!

I get hot when I think about all of their tyranny, their arrogance, their lies--meanwhile, millions of good people--normal, ordinary Americans doing their thing in life--have been bankrupted and ruined. Forever. Few will recover. There's only one life, and so much time. Think about what they have all lost and suffered, and had taken from them, you know?

While some sanctimonious twit on TV or the interwebs--LYING--or stupidly gulping BS down--proceeded to tell us all that we need to "Follow the SCIENCE!" and submit, wear the mask, bigot! TAKE THE VAX, BIGOT! and yeah, also shut up and do as we are told, and stop questioning the AUTHORITAYS--I mean, stop spreading Misinformation, right?

I know you remember all that BS nonsense. Oh, yeah, we had some of those same morons right here on our boards try and shovel that nonsense to us, right?

It's mind boggling, Chris. I need to make some more coffee, my friend!

It's frigging cold here where I live. Here in Idaho right now...yeah, it's 34 degrees outside. GRRRR! ;D

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ratman_tf on March 02, 2023, 07:57:29 PM


Next they'll be telling us that aligning our chakras won't prevent Covid.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: GeekyBugle on March 03, 2023, 01:01:21 PM
The Covid Files prove you're just a bunch of conspiracy theorists!  8)

Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: dkabq on March 04, 2023, 05:32:30 PM
Dr. Vinay Prasad: Stop trusting the public health establishment
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-W0THhfYIZ4
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Zelen on March 04, 2023, 05:51:42 PM
The Covid Files prove you're just a bunch of conspiracy theorists!  8)



The only problem with this "leaked text" stuff is that it's just as likely to be fake as it is to be real. Propagandists had no problem lying about all kinds of things for the last few years. I have no doubt they'd lie now. Whether the texts are totally fabricated, or omit the most damning info, or whatever else based on some undisclosed goal.

We get momentary headlines. Two seconds later it's Ukraine or factory explosions or BLM riots or whatever. Instead of simple gotchas we need tribunals to move the conversation to where it needs to go for Justice to be done.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: GeekyBugle on March 04, 2023, 10:00:27 PM
The Covid Files prove you're just a bunch of conspiracy theorists!  8)



The only problem with this "leaked text" stuff is that it's just as likely to be fake as it is to be real. Propagandists had no problem lying about all kinds of things for the last few years. I have no doubt they'd lie now. Whether the texts are totally fabricated, or omit the most damning info, or whatever else based on some undisclosed goal.

We get momentary headlines. Two seconds later it's Ukraine or factory explosions or BLM riots or whatever. Instead of simple gotchas we need tribunals to move the conversation to where it needs to go for Justice to be done.

It's the UK my dude, if the texts were fake they would fire a lawsuit against the people publishing them.

No, the texts aren't fake IMHO.

But you're correct that we need courts to tackle this and hang the culprits.

Sadly this isn't going to happen, the world courts are in the WEF's side, the national courts are on the WEF/government side. Maybe in ten years if we manage to overturn all the establishment but I'm not holding my breath.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Zelen on March 05, 2023, 06:28:41 PM
It's the UK my dude, if the texts were fake they would fire a lawsuit against the people publishing them.

No, the texts aren't fake IMHO.

Who would be filing the lawsuit? The regime slime won't. The text messages surely undersell the crimes they committed.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on March 06, 2023, 06:54:06 AM
The timing of this release is a smokescreen to distract people from the WHO Pandemic Treaty. This will be used as "proof" that national governments can't be trusted to handle public health emergencies, and thus we should cede control to the WHO.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: GeekyBugle on March 06, 2023, 06:14:58 PM
The evidence keeps piling on and you conspiratards keep shouting about lab leaks and other BS.  ::)

Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: GeekyBugle on March 06, 2023, 06:48:00 PM
I seriously do not understand why you conspiratards don't trust the mainstream media  ::)

Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: dkabq on March 19, 2023, 08:09:08 AM
Just a reminder:

Dr. Ezike press briefing:
https://twitter.com/jbourne2030/status/1637392024499257344

Dr. Ezike: 90% of Illinois' COVID-19 deaths had underlying condition
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qp0afdBUzis
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on March 19, 2023, 09:24:28 AM
Only 90%? Did they have a higher incidence of otherwise healthy elderly people murdered with opiates or killed by ventilators than in other places? Usually over 95% of "covid deaths" were actually killed by something else, but happened to have had a cold within the last month before their death.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Doctor Jest on April 04, 2023, 11:53:23 PM
Dr. Vinay Prasad: Stop trusting the public health establishment
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-W0THhfYIZ4

I watched Vinay Prasad from the beginning of the pandemic, and watching his slow transformation from a true believer in The Science to being mostly red pilled has been fascinating.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ratman_tf on April 13, 2023, 01:58:14 PM
Physio-metabolic and clinical consequences of wearing face masks—Systematic review with meta-analysis and comprehensive evaluation (https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpubh.2023.1125150/full)

Spoilers-

Quote
From the above facts, we conclude that a mask requirement must be reconsidered in a strictly scientific way without any political interference as well as from a humanitarian and ethical point of view. There is an urgent need to balance adverse mask effects with their anticipated efficacy against viral transmission. In the absence of strong empirical evidence of mask effectiveness, mask wearing should not be mandated let alone enforced by law.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on April 14, 2023, 08:57:58 AM
 I have noted all the people around this forum who used to say retarded shit like dont be afraid of needles and "you dont want long covid" etc, etc, etc have sort of gotten strangely silent.  I have from the jump said if you think you need a shot, I am not going to stop you...but trying to force me (and all of them wanted to force people to take it...pretending not being able to work is not being forced if pretty weak) and others to take it...different scenario.   If you want to ingest something that was magically cooked up in record time with both development and approval...for for it.  If you want to take something that is so good for you the government is financially incentivizing people to take it.......  I wonder how much buyer's remorse there is out there now? 
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: dkabq on April 14, 2023, 11:26:51 AM
A case of fatal multi-organ inflammation following COVID-19 vaccination
https://t.co/XRZccJvkSJ

The link downloads the pdf of the article in the journal "Legal Medicine".

It begs the question of why are they giving multiple vax doses to health young people.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Zelen on April 14, 2023, 01:07:57 PM
I know why!

(https://i.imgur.com/aeWWOIJ.png)
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: SHARK on April 14, 2023, 02:34:04 PM
I know why!

(https://i.imgur.com/aeWWOIJ.png)


Greetings!

Absolutely right, Zelen! It has all been part of a huge scam, a huge grift to enrich the pharmaceutical companies, hospitals, doctors, and the politicians that go along with them, of course.

All these people since this all began while some were sincere--they are all nonetheless looking pretty damned stupid, and far too eager to bend the fucking knee to absolute tyranny. They should all admit how terribly stupid and wrong they were, and beg for forgiveness. But we know they won't. They want to proudly remain in their ignorance and slavery.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: KindaMeh on April 14, 2023, 02:54:04 PM
I know why!

(https://i.imgur.com/aeWWOIJ.png)

Anthem is a health insurance company. So I guess they thought/think it reduces overall healthcare and hospitalization costs, else they wouldn’t be bothering trying to get their members vaccinated. Still a bad idea and potentially immoral to incentivize doctors to give a particular recommendation, though. Especially to try a one size fits all approach.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ratman_tf on April 15, 2023, 12:01:02 AM
I have noted all the people around this forum who used to say retarded shit like dont be afraid of needles and "you dont want long covid" etc, etc, etc have sort of gotten strangely silent.  I have from the jump said if you think you need a shot, I am not going to stop you...but trying to force me (and all of them wanted to force people to take it...pretending not being able to work is not being forced if pretty weak) and others to take it...different scenario.   If you want to ingest something that was magically cooked up in record time with both development and approval...for for it.  If you want to take something that is so good for you the government is financially incentivizing people to take it.......  I wonder how much buyer's remorse there is out there now?

My money's on them doubling down for the next big emergency. We know that the government and a willing majority of the population will go full Nazi (https://research.unc.edu/human-research-ethics/resources/ccm3_019064/) on the rest of us. I hope I'm fucking 6 feet under before the next time, but who knows?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: SHARK on April 15, 2023, 12:50:18 AM
I have noted all the people around this forum who used to say retarded shit like dont be afraid of needles and "you dont want long covid" etc, etc, etc have sort of gotten strangely silent.  I have from the jump said if you think you need a shot, I am not going to stop you...but trying to force me (and all of them wanted to force people to take it...pretending not being able to work is not being forced if pretty weak) and others to take it...different scenario.   If you want to ingest something that was magically cooked up in record time with both development and approval...for for it.  If you want to take something that is so good for you the government is financially incentivizing people to take it.......  I wonder how much buyer's remorse there is out there now?

Greetings!

That's right, Oggsmash! I imagine if they have a shred of self-awareness and integrity, they must be feeling like well, total morons and arrogant jackasses. Every week, we see more revelations from e-mails as well as admissions by medical people as well as government, how fucking corrupt, evil, and stupid they all were during the fucking Covid pandemic. Talk about a fucking hoax! Whaa! Whaa! Whaa! Remember all the shrill morons screaming about how the non-maskers were going to kill Grandmas everywhere? How about the Nazi tyrants that publicly called for non-maskers/vaccine resisters, all those engaged in rebellion and "Misinformation" to be imprisoned, or forced to stay in their homes, or otherwise deprived of food, medicine, whatever, and oppressed? How about all of the divorces? How about all of the people that lost their homes? Lost their jobs? Were FIRED from their jobs or forced to resign from their CAREERS? Like also what? 800,000 or 1 Million troops in the US Military that said fuck no to the vaccine mandate, and were forced to resign? Hundreds of thousands, maybe MILLIONS of small business owners and entrepreneurs lost their businesses that they had spent huge savings on and many years investment?

How about the families that had a sick relative--like a wife, or mother, or child--but they were isolated and refused entry, as their relative died alone, trapped in some fucking hospital bed, and run by tyrants? I remember seeing people fall to their knees, weeping, and begging to be let near their relatives--children screaming and sobbing--while these fucking scum in the hospitals backed up by police goons stood over them and said "NO."

Yeah, the moron sheep on this board and throughout our society have MUCH to be ashamed of. They have the burden of being confronted with their own moral and intellectual cowardice, the deep realization that they were gullible and not only deceived by the government and the medical authorities--"Believe the SCIENCE!"--but also, at the end of the day, were eager and willing to stand by and do nothing--or worse, help the tyrants--crush and oppress the people that resisted.

What's the German WWII meme? "Hans, are we really the baddies?"

Yeah, they have a great burden on their souls that they should always be ashamed of.

The millions of Americans suffered and lost so much--most of which will leave permanent scars, trauma, poverty, or huge struggle. Millions will never recover from the fucking Covid pandemic, regardless of whether they ever got the fucking virus or not.

In the first month, I was realistically concerned about Covid, the pandemic, everything. Who knew what was really going on, after all? However, after that first month, many signs began falling into place, week by week, and month by month, that for the most part, the Covid Pandemic was all bullshit. Obviously, there were some real people that suffered from Covid, as well. But the bigger scandal, the huge injustice and tyranny--is the medical authorities, the media, and the government's response and ongoing policies and actions. It is a tragedy that so many people refused to listen to those of us that preached resistance, skepticism, questioning, of all of the previously mentioned authorities and narratives. The price this country has suffered has been enormous, and incalculable. I can't even begin to imagine how you somehow have millions of people recover what took years--or a lifetime, to build. For many, there is not enough money, not enough years, to ever recover. How many lost their wives and families because their wives divorced them, because the business was shut down by government mandate, and thus went bankrupt?

I don't see how you have millions of people ever fully recover from the pandemic of lies, bullshit, and tyranny. I just don't.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: dkabq on April 16, 2023, 09:19:15 PM
The Physiological Burden of Prolonged PPE Use on Healthcare Workers during Long Shifts
https://blogs.cdc.gov/niosh-science-blog/2020/06/10/ppe-burden/

Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: dkabq on April 22, 2023, 03:28:50 PM
How does Cochrane normally handle wide confidence intervals?
https://sensiblemed.substack.com/p/how-does-cochrane-normally-handle
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on April 30, 2023, 07:56:05 AM
When the WHO Pandemic Treaty comes into force (in May 2024), all of us filthy unjabbed pariahs will be banned from international travel. Why else would they need vaccination codes to pin on people's medical records?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ratman_tf on April 30, 2023, 04:13:02 PM
When the WHO Pandemic Treaty comes into force (in May 2024), all of us filthy unjabbed pariahs will be banned from international travel. Why else would they need vaccination codes to pin on people's medical records?

James Lindsay made the observation that the oppression will be opt-in. Instead of going full overlord, they'll just make it easier to go along, and harder to resist.
For example, I don't do a lot of international travel. I used to go north for any X-Wing Miniatures events in Canada, but Covid killed that, and the game went to a new edition, so I'm not likely to do that anymore.

So any international travel restrictions won't affect me. But then, eventually something will...
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Exploderwizard on May 08, 2023, 09:38:56 AM
I have noted all the people around this forum who used to say retarded shit like dont be afraid of needles and "you dont want long covid" etc, etc, etc have sort of gotten strangely silent.  I have from the jump said if you think you need a shot, I am not going to stop you...but trying to force me (and all of them wanted to force people to take it...pretending not being able to work is not being forced if pretty weak) and others to take it...different scenario.   If you want to ingest something that was magically cooked up in record time with both development and approval...for for it.  If you want to take something that is so good for you the government is financially incentivizing people to take it.......  I wonder how much buyer's remorse there is out there now?

The vax was not cooked up in record time. It was patented in 2015. The virus was cooked up to administer the vax that was already waiting.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: GeekyBugle on May 08, 2023, 01:23:35 PM
I have noted all the people around this forum who used to say retarded shit like dont be afraid of needles and "you dont want long covid" etc, etc, etc have sort of gotten strangely silent.  I have from the jump said if you think you need a shot, I am not going to stop you...but trying to force me (and all of them wanted to force people to take it...pretending not being able to work is not being forced if pretty weak) and others to take it...different scenario.   If you want to ingest something that was magically cooked up in record time with both development and approval...for for it.  If you want to take something that is so good for you the government is financially incentivizing people to take it.......  I wonder how much buyer's remorse there is out there now?

The vax was not cooked up in record time. It was patented in 2015. The virus was cooked up to administer the vax that was already waiting.

Wrong, the tech for mrna vaccines is from 2015, the virus was being developed by China (with US taxpayers money) as a potential bioweapon.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: GamerSince77 on May 08, 2023, 07:23:25 PM
Wrong, the tech for mrna vaccines is from 2015, the virus was being developed by China (with US taxpayers money) as a potential bioweapon.

Do you have evidence that the virus was developed as a potential bioweapon?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: GeekyBugle on May 08, 2023, 07:44:33 PM
Wrong, the tech for mrna vaccines is from 2015, the virus was being developed by China (with US taxpayers money) as a potential bioweapon.

Do you have evidence that the virus was developed as a potential bioweapon?

No, I'm sure developing a highly contagious virus that spreads by air and for which there's no vaccine was just an innocent endeavor of the CCP comrade.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ghostmaker on May 08, 2023, 09:03:22 PM
Wrong, the tech for mrna vaccines is from 2015, the virus was being developed by China (with US taxpayers money) as a potential bioweapon.

Do you have evidence that the virus was developed as a potential bioweapon?

No, I'm sure developing a highly contagious virus that spreads by air and for which there's no vaccine was just an innocent endeavor of the CCP comrade.
Even if it was not intended as such, China was criminally incompetent in handling such dangerous materials.

This is unsurprising. 'Good enough' (cha bu duo) and the more recent mentality of 'lie flat/let it rot' is a recipe for disaster when working with biological infections and virii.

And that's the kindest, most charitable interpretation.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: GamerSince77 on May 08, 2023, 09:37:05 PM
No, I'm sure developing a highly contagious virus that spreads by air and for which there's no vaccine was just an innocent endeavor of the CCP comrade.

So, you have absolutely no evidence. Just a preferred narrative.

It could be a purely natural evolution of the disgusting wet markets. Or, it could be an accidental result of poor safety measures at a viral study lab. Or, it could be a weapon. Or, it could be the natural result of poor sanitation in over-crowded living conditions. Or, it could be an act of God.

As far as I know, there has been no definitive diagnosis of the origins of Covid-19, mostly due to the secretive nature of the Chinese government.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: GeekyBugle on May 08, 2023, 11:07:02 PM
So, you have absolutely no evidence. Just a preferred narrative.

Or I have evidence that China is not to be trusted EVER, that Fauci KNEW about gain of function research and that the virus came from the lab and worked to hide it. You would have it too if you weren't blindly following the establishment talking points without hearing other sources.

It could be a purely natural evolution of the disgusting wet markets.

This has been disproven, something you would know if you weren't blindly following the establishment talking points without hearing other sources.

Or, it could be an accidental result of poor safety measures at a viral study lab.

So by accident the lab developed the virus? Or you mean the release into the population? I don't think it was released on purpose but that doesn't mean it wasn't developed as a bio-weapon.

Or, it could be a weapon.

Once everything else has been discarded the remaining option must be true regardless of how unlikely. Which still doesn't mean the release was intentional, two things can be true at the same time, it is a bio-weapon and it was released due to poor standards.

Or, it could be the natural result of poor sanitation in over-crowded living conditions.

Yeah, poor sanitation conditions leave the mark of gen editing....

Or, it could be an act of God.

As a Christian, go fuck yourself, it was man made, all evidence points to that.

As far as I know, there has been no definitive diagnosis of the origins of Covid-19, mostly due to the secretive nature of the Chinese government.

There has been proof that it wasn't the wet markets, that it has the fingerprints of being lab created, it was first found on the wild near the CCP lab doing research in the exact same type of virii, a Doctor was reported sick before the official outbreak, Chinese Doctors working on the Wuhan lab that spoke about it being created there disappeared, but sure, it could have been anything...
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: GamerSince77 on May 08, 2023, 11:38:08 PM
From Johns Hopkins University:
https://publichealth.jhu.edu/2022/origins-of-sars-cov-2
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ghostmaker on May 09, 2023, 10:02:23 AM
From Johns Hopkins University:
https://publichealth.jhu.edu/2022/origins-of-sars-cov-2
That doesn't quite say what you want it to.

Of course, part of the problem is that China has a vested interest in obscuring its role, as does Dr. Fauci and the NHS (don't even try -- he was directly involved in funneling funds to research into gain of function).

On a side note, the left's veneration of Fauci is so weird to me considering his incompetence, particularly during the rise of AIDS/HIV.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Exploderwizard on May 09, 2023, 02:11:37 PM

[/quote]

On a side note, the left's veneration of Fauci is so weird to me considering his incompetence, particularly during the rise of AIDS/HIV.
[/quote]

Make no mistake. There was no incompetence involved. Fauci was a willing participant in the global depopulation effort.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on May 17, 2023, 06:28:17 AM
Very interesting commentary at around 13:00 from David Martin about the origins of covid: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bFLPWWCAHfQ

That SARS-COV-1 and SARS-COV-2 are not naturally occurring viruses, but man-made through gain of function research (which spun out of the investigation into a cure for the common cold). Not only that, both outbreaks in 2003 and 2019/20 were the results of deliberate leaks. And instigated by the US.

Also that the jabs don't work and are known not to work. Because that line of enquiry has always been a failure. Which begs the question, what are they for?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Fheredin on May 17, 2023, 08:35:32 AM
I seriously doubt that COVID is the result of "deliberate leaks" on the part of the US. The NIH was almost certainly involved in funding gain of function, but that isn't the same as the entirety of the US government deliberately spreading COVID. Even the CIA probably wouldn't do that, not because they care about the US citizenry...but because that's a bloody huge project and they didn't have a clear motive besides maybe displacing Trump in the 2020 election.

But then why hit Italy first? That doesn't fit.

What I think is more likely is that COVID escaped from the Wuhan lab, and China--knowing they would lose economic position relative to other nations if they contained the infection within their borders--deliberately spread it. We know they delayed the WHO admitting human to human transmission for some months, and left international travel from Wuhan open even as they closed local travel. Intentional spread is consistent with some of China's other policies. If the initial leak was a month or so earlier than the first reports on Wuhan (which would make sense because diseases need time to spread from patient zero), then the entire timeline fits.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on May 17, 2023, 10:53:46 AM
SARS-COV-2 leaked in autumn/winter 2019, it was already in Europe towards the end of the year.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: DocJones on May 17, 2023, 12:31:11 PM
Yeah, I always get my pandemic info from self-help gurus like David Martin.

Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on May 17, 2023, 02:16:55 PM
Yeah, I always get my pandemic info from self-help gurus like David Martin.

Bless, you went straight for playing the man, not the ball. I bet you didn't even listen to any of it, either.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Zelen on May 17, 2023, 10:34:28 PM
One of my Scandinavian friends who I recently talked to expressed to me that she deeply regretted getting the injection, and she's had constant pain and bleeding as a side effect of taking the injection (which she was compelled to get for work). I hope one day she's able to have children.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Fheredin on May 18, 2023, 08:12:44 AM
One of my Scandinavian friends who I recently talked to expressed to me that she deeply regretted getting the injection, and she's had constant pain and bleeding as a side effect of taking the injection (which she was compelled to get for work). I hope one day she's able to have children.

Yeah, you can often tell whose a Chinese/ Russian / US Deepstate disinformant purely by how they regard the people who got the shot. Real people have compassion for people who are injured and often don't realize it, yet. Fear-porn outlets are usually government agents just trying to stir the pot.

I have been actively researching ways to reduce the side-effects of vaxx injuries because my church supports a whole bunch of international missionaries, and of course all of them had to take the shot. The worst part is that my congregation is exceedingly conventionally-minded and is practically willfully ignorant of the risks.

Consider suggesting Red Light Therapy. I found this video put together by an actual COVID doctor.



Of course, Vitamin D supplementation is also a good place to start.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Klava on May 19, 2023, 04:10:31 AM
constant pain and bleeding as a side effect of taking the injection
how did she find out it was a side effect of taking the injection?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on May 22, 2023, 08:58:20 AM
how did she find out it was a side effect of taking the injection?

Most likely, because the only intervention out of the ordinary was the jab.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Klava on May 22, 2023, 11:48:36 AM
how did she find out it was a side effect of taking the injection?

Most likely, because the only intervention out of the ordinary was the jab.

Ah. So there’s no actual evidence, things just happened one after another, so she assumed they were related? Okay.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on May 22, 2023, 12:35:40 PM
Ah. So there’s no actual evidence, things just happened one after another, so she assumed they were related? Okay.

Aw, they still make them like you? Keep on working that cognitive dissonance, I'm sure your jabs are just fine.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Klava on May 22, 2023, 01:16:41 PM
Aw, they still make them like you? Keep on working that cognitive dissonance, I'm sure your jabs are just fine.
uh huh. i, personally, had no side effects. and neither had any of those people that i know personally. and you provided no evidence for your claims, so... meh?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Fheredin on May 22, 2023, 02:30:45 PM
Aw, they still make them like you? Keep on working that cognitive dissonance, I'm sure your jabs are just fine.
uh huh. i, personally, had no side effects. and neither had any of those people that i know personally. and you provided no evidence for your claims, so... meh?

Well, let's actually ask some experts, shall we?





These are both doctors I started following at the start of the pandemic. Dr. Campbell (the second vid) was originally strongly for the jab and late last year he abruptly changed his tune. He now has multiple videos discussing excess deaths not attributable to COVID.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: GamerSince77 on May 22, 2023, 02:50:20 PM
Real experts don’t need to post monetized videos on YouTube. This is just more anti-vax grifting.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Grognard GM on May 22, 2023, 03:00:30 PM
Real experts don’t need to post monetized videos on YouTube. This is just more anti-vax grifting.

Yeah, everyone knows the real experts are all fully funded by government or private interests, that's how you know they're real, unbiased experts.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Klava on May 22, 2023, 03:25:18 PM
Well, let's actually ask some experts, shall we?

every anti-vaxer i ever came across, including the "experts" you just linked to, had one thing is common - they had no scientifically sound and peer reviewed evidence for any of their claims.

did you at least follow the links they provided as "basis" for their bs? if you did not, do yourself a favor and do so. if you did... well... there's my point right there.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Brad on May 22, 2023, 03:44:19 PM
every anti-vaxer i ever came across, including the "experts" you just linked to, had one thing is common - they had no scientifically sound and peer reviewed evidence for any of their claims.

did you at least follow the links they provided as "basis" for their bs? if you did not, do yourself a favor and do so. if you did... well... there's my point right there.

Is this a joke?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: dkabq on May 22, 2023, 04:02:05 PM
Well, let's actually ask some experts, shall we?

every anti-vaxer i ever came across, including the "experts" you just linked to, had one thing is common - they had no scientifically sound and peer reviewed evidence for any of their claims.

did you at least follow the links they provided as "basis" for their bs? if you did not, do yourself a favor and do so. if you did... well... there's my point right there.

Careful throwing stones...

No technical basis for lockdowns.

Ignoring the technical basis regarding masking: Cochrane 2020 and Cochrane 2023 stating, "Wearing masks in the community probably makes little or no difference to the outcome of influenza-like illness (ILI)/COVID-19 like illness compared to not wearing masks".

No technical basis for ignoring natural immunity.

The results from a study of 9 mice as the basis for boosters.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Fheredin on May 22, 2023, 04:06:07 PM
Well, let's actually ask some experts, shall we?

every anti-vaxer i ever came across, including the "experts" you just linked to, had one thing is common - they had no scientifically sound and peer reviewed evidence for any of their claims.

did you at least follow the links they provided as "basis" for their bs? if you did not, do yourself a favor and do so. if you did... well... there's my point right there.

Welp, this one's easy enough.

Dr. Campbell's Source: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36602621/ (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36602621/)

Yup. That's a legit scholarly source on Pubmed.

Dr. Moran's sources:

https://www.mdpi.com/2414-6366/7/8/196 (https://www.mdpi.com/2414-6366/7/8/196)

https://academic.oup.com/cid/article/75/4/673/6445179?login=false (https://academic.oup.com/cid/article/75/4/673/6445179?login=false)

https://www.publichealthontario.ca/-/media/documents/ncov/epi/covid-19-myocarditis-pericarditis-vaccines-epi.pdf?sc_lang=en (https://www.publichealthontario.ca/-/media/documents/ncov/epi/covid-19-myocarditis-pericarditis-vaccines-epi.pdf?sc_lang=en)

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00392-022-02129-5 (https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00392-022-02129-5)

Sources include official data from Public Health Ontario, Clinical Infectious Diseases, and The Lancet.

Now, I am aware of the Surgisphere fraud case where early in the Pandemic The Lancet published an article based on straight up fabricated data, but that was made with the specific intent of making Trump look bad in an election year. Before that The Lancet was considered the world's premiere medical journal. These sources are not CNN articles.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Klava on May 22, 2023, 04:23:03 PM
okay, i'm following the links from just the first "expert" for you:

>> findings might not be generalisable given the small sample size and further follow-up is needed for the subset of patients with atypical test results or not considered recovered.

>> In this observational study, clinically suspected myopericarditis was temporarily associated with the BNT162b2 mRNA COVID-19 vaccine in a small proportion of adolescent patients. Chest pain is an alarming symptom in patients receiving BNT162b2 mRNA COVID-19 vaccination, especially a second dose of BNT162b2. The risk for these symptoms was found to be higher than reported elsewhere. The adverse cardiovascular manifestations observed in this adolescent cohort were both mild and transient.

>> Between 14 June 2021 and 4 September 2021, 33 Chinese adolescents who developed acute myocarditis/pericarditis following Comirnaty vaccination were identified. In total, 29 (87.88%) were male and 4 (12.12%) were female, with a median age of 15.25 years. And 27 (81.82%) and 6 (18.18%) cases developed acute myocarditis/pericarditis after receiving the second and first dose, respectively. All cases are mild and required only conservative management.

>> we cannot provide a definitive functional proof or a direct causal link between vaccination and myocarditis.

so, where's the bloody evidence again? the last one pretty much sums it all up. you cannot just use statistics of before-and-after kind as evidence if you are to do anything like ANYTHING scientific at all. statistics is nothing but a cause to do more research, and to this day i've not seen enough of that - just a lot of politics, hype riding and click bait.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Klava on May 22, 2023, 04:26:57 PM
Careful throwing stones...

don't pin that stuff on me. i've never said that they didn't cut corners and neither did i claim they handled it well - they definitely didn't. i'm just talking vaccines here - you know, stuff madd using general knowledge and technology thanks to which none of us here had their kids' lives destroyed by small pox or polio.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Fheredin on May 22, 2023, 04:51:41 PM
okay, i'm following the links from just the first "expert" for you:

>> findings might not be generalisable given the small sample size and further follow-up is needed for the subset of patients with atypical test results or not considered recovered.

>> In this observational study, clinically suspected myopericarditis was temporarily associated with the BNT162b2 mRNA COVID-19 vaccine in a small proportion of adolescent patients. Chest pain is an alarming symptom in patients receiving BNT162b2 mRNA COVID-19 vaccination, especially a second dose of BNT162b2. The risk for these symptoms was found to be higher than reported elsewhere. The adverse cardiovascular manifestations observed in this adolescent cohort were both mild and transient.

>> Between 14 June 2021 and 4 September 2021, 33 Chinese adolescents who developed acute myocarditis/pericarditis following Comirnaty vaccination were identified. In total, 29 (87.88%) were male and 4 (12.12%) were female, with a median age of 15.25 years. And 27 (81.82%) and 6 (18.18%) cases developed acute myocarditis/pericarditis after receiving the second and first dose, respectively. All cases are mild and required only conservative management.

>> we cannot provide a definitive functional proof or a direct causal link between vaccination and myocarditis.

so, where's the bloody evidence again? the last one pretty much sums it all up. you cannot just use statistics of before-and-after kind as evidence if you are to do anything like ANYTHING scientific at all. statistics is nothing but a cause to do more research, and to this day i've not seen enough of that - just a lot of politics, hype riding and click bait.

I don't think you understand what you are reading. These are CYA statements which are pretty much standard academic practice when handling controversial material. Scientists and clinicians do not take personal responsibility for the findings they present, nor are they particularly keen on taking political fire.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Brad on May 22, 2023, 04:52:13 PM
don't pin that stuff on me. i've never said that they didn't cut corners and neither did i claim they handled it well - they definitely didn't. i'm just talking vaccines here - you know, stuff madd using general knowledge and technology thanks to which none of us here had their kids' lives destroyed by small pox or polio.

Tell me you're parroting MSM without telling me you're parroting MSM...
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on May 22, 2023, 05:04:56 PM
uh huh. i, personally, had no side effects. and neither had any of those people that i know personally. and you provided no evidence for your claims, so... meh?

You've had no side effects...yet.

How long has it been? Maybe we should revisit this question in 5 years?

don't pin that stuff on me. i've never said that they didn't cut corners and neither did i claim they handled it well - they definitely didn't. i'm just talking vaccines here - you know, stuff madd using general knowledge and technology thanks to which none of us here had their kids' lives destroyed by small pox or polio.

mRNA jabs are not vaccines, which is why they had to change the definition in 2020. So don't go conflating them with the real thing, we're not that dumb.

Vaccines grant immunity from infection (see measles, et al). Every attempt to create a vaccine for the common cold failed. Which is why they came up with the mRNA wheeze, which unsurprisingly, doesn't work either.

More pertinently, of course, we never needed a vaccine for the sniffles. Which is what covid is. I've had it several times and had worse bouts of flu. And there all the paid-up shills were claiming it would be deadly for us unjabbed (which we knew wasn't the case, given the Diamond Princess proved covid was a nothingburger long before they rolled out any jabs).

I always have to ask you jabees, do you feel really, really stupid now? Having subjected yourself to a completely unnecessary and ineffective medical intervention with unknown medium and long term risks?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: dkabq on May 22, 2023, 06:24:40 PM
Careful throwing stones...

don't pin that stuff on me. i've never said that they didn't cut corners and neither did i claim they handled it well - they definitely didn't. i'm just talking vaccines here - you know, stuff madd using general knowledge and technology thanks to which none of us here had their kids' lives destroyed by small pox or polio.
Fair enough.

However, these are vax related:

Forcing young, healthy people to take the vax, even when the data showed that young, healthy people rarely died from covid.

No technical basis for ignoring natural immunity. That is, if you had covid, you didn't need to take the vax (just like the measles vax).

The results from a study of 9 mice as the basis for boosters.

Saying that the vax prevents transmission with no studies to support that claim.

Saying that the vax prevents infection to going to prevents severe outcomes.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Spinachcat on May 22, 2023, 06:59:16 PM
Have we reached the Eating Crow phase of the Shamdemic?

Amazing how we Pureblood "conspiracy theorists" turned out right.
Again.
And again.
And yet again.
Must be coincidence.

Funny how "real science > scientism" every time.

For those kids keeping up with the Big Show, the next season of the CoronaChan Shamdemic is called "Fallout: the Intended and Unintended Damage" as humanity reaps what it has sown and we all discover the long term and permanent ramifications of giving up our REAL freedoms for FALSE safety.

My prediction? Karma is gonna be a raging bitch.

But unfortunately, it will be the innocent children who suffer the most.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Brad on May 22, 2023, 07:31:22 PM
Have we reached the Eating Crow phase of the Shamdemic?

Amazing how we Pureblood "conspiracy theorists" turned out right.
Again.
And again.
And yet again.
Must be coincidence.

Funny how "real science > scientism" every time.

For those kids keeping up with the Big Show, the next season of the CoronaChan Shamdemic is called "Fallout: the Intended and Unintended Damage" as humanity reaps what it has sown and we all discover the long term and permanent ramifications of giving up our REAL freedoms for FALSE safety.

My prediction? Karma is gonna be a raging bitch.

But unfortunately, it will be the innocent children who suffer the most.

No, you just got lucky being right. It was unscientific to ignore the recommendations of bureaucrat shills owned by the pharmaceutical companies and instead trust your own research and intuition on the matter. Every study to the contrary that appeared and was immediately buried and every scintilla of evidence disputing the mainstream narrative that was immediately branded as misinformation could not possibly be used as any sort of evidence that a nefarious agenda to push non-vaccine vaccines was taking place. Surely you are just an idiot to possibly believe the government of all nebulous entities would not have your best interests at heart and would use FUD to strip away your freedoms in the name of safety, right?

You anti-science bigot.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Klava on May 23, 2023, 02:01:17 AM
You've had no side effects...yet.

How long has it been? Maybe we should revisit this question in 5 years?

maybe you should do the same and wait until they find actual proof the girl you were talking about was having side effects from the vaccine before going "zomg! here's another life ruined!"?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Klava on May 23, 2023, 02:36:58 AM
Careful throwing stones...

don't pin that stuff on me. i've never said that they didn't cut corners and neither did i claim they handled it well - they definitely didn't. i'm just talking vaccines here - you know, stuff madd using general knowledge and technology thanks to which none of us here had their kids' lives destroyed by small pox or polio.
Fair enough.

However, these are vax related:

Forcing young, healthy people to take the vax, even when the data showed that young, healthy people rarely died from covid.

No technical basis for ignoring natural immunity. That is, if you had covid, you didn't need to take the vax (just like the measles vax).

The results from a study of 9 mice as the basis for boosters.

Saying that the vax prevents transmission with no studies to support that claim.

Saying that the vax prevents infection to going to prevents severe outcomes.

i think i already agreed with you on them handling it pretty badly, didn't i? if they were honest about the info they had (or didn't have) and didn't treat everybody like mindless sheep that couldn't possibly make their own decisions i think it could have gone better, at least in the realm of PR and politics. i mean, in my home country when they started proper testing of their mrna vaccine, they had all their cards on the table - and i, personally, knew exactly was i was subjecting myself to when i volunteered to test it. and the whole vaccination schtick remained completely voluntary through the whole thing. it was encouraged by the government, but only mandated for people of certain professions - medical, police, public transportation and a number of others. i can't speak of the results compared to other countries that had stricter rules on this, because, unlike anti-vaxer nuts, i don't claim to have the info required to make such a call, but public perception of the whole thing seems to be better than in the states, for example.

or, if your point is to say that this is a capitalist world in which corporate pigs and politicians prostituting for them would commit any atrocity if it meant profits like those they got pushing vaccines during the pandemic, then you don't have to sell me - i'm with you.

now, what i'm talking about here is bloody idiots opposing vaccines on the basis of those "expertly produced" monetized youtube videos, or simply on "zomg! my friend's girlfriend's granddad discovered a wart on his left buttock after being jabbed with a vaccine !!!one!11!!eleven".
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on May 23, 2023, 03:23:36 AM
maybe you should do the same and wait until they find actual proof the girl you were talking about was having side effects from the vaccine before going "zomg! here's another life ruined!"?

I wasn't talking about this girl, I merely conjectured why whomever it was who brought them up might suspect that. You do know there are actual documented cases of people dying from the jabs, right? As in a pathologist actually wrote that as the cause of death on their death certificate?

In any case, we are not equivalent. I haven't subjected myself to experimental genetic augmentation, there's nothing for me to worry about coming up in the future.

Good luck, though.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Klava on May 23, 2023, 03:30:14 AM
I wasn't talking about this girl, I merely conjectured why whomever it was who brought them up might suspect that.

so, no evidence after all?
okay.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on May 23, 2023, 04:03:57 AM
so, no evidence after all?
okay.

Oh, because curated lies paid for by Big Pharma is "evidence" now. Sure thing.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Klava on May 23, 2023, 04:38:10 AM
Oh, because curated lies paid for by Big Pharma is "evidence" now. Sure thing.

i didn't ask you to evaluate evidence provided by anyone you so vehemently disagree with - just the evidence for your own claims about that girl.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on May 23, 2023, 04:51:24 AM
i didn't ask you to evaluate evidence provided by anyone you so vehemently disagree with - just the evidence for your own claims about that girl.

I didn't make any "claims", I conjectured a very likely explanation. What with lots of jabbed people evincing mysterious symptoms they didn't experience before they were jabbed.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Klava on May 23, 2023, 06:31:59 AM
I didn't make any "claims", I conjectured a very likely explanation. What with lots of jabbed people evincing mysterious symptoms they didn't experience before they were jabbed.

with the number of people being vaccinated at the time, one could use this before-amd-after logic to find correlation between the injection and anything at all - from car accidents to getting crabs. conjecture my ass.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on May 23, 2023, 07:30:08 AM
with the number of people being vaccinated at the time, one could use this before-amd-after logic to find correlation between the injection and anything at all - from car accidents to getting crabs. conjecture my ass.

What utter bullshit. You keep working whatever helps you sleep at night.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on May 23, 2023, 08:30:06 AM
Data released in Israel following a court order. Zero covid deaths in healthy under-50s: https://twitter.com/DrEliDavid/status/1660710583052673029?

Yes, zero.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Klava on May 23, 2023, 02:19:45 PM
with the number of people being vaccinated at the time, one could use this before-amd-after logic to find correlation between the injection and anything at all - from car accidents to getting crabs. conjecture my ass.

What utter bullshit. You keep working whatever helps you sleep at night.
ah. so you don't even know how basic statistics work?
okay.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Brad on May 23, 2023, 02:25:38 PM
ah. so you don't even know how basic statistics work?
okay.

LOL

Just stop
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Klava on May 23, 2023, 02:53:30 PM
ah. so you don't even know how basic statistics work?
okay.

LOL

Just stop

ever heard of cherry picking and how increasing sample size in statistics also makes it easier for bad actors - like deliberate frauds and, yes, conspiracy nuts - to do it?

that clown over there decided, by "conjecture", that the girl in a far away country had bleeding and pains in her womanly parts as a side effect of her vaccine injection. and when asked how he made that amazing deduction you'd think he would at least go out there and google to see if there was a statistical study among women that would support his claim - but, unsurprisingly, he just kept beating his chest, claiming awesome powers of observation, and calling others names.

so LOL yourself.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: SHARK on May 23, 2023, 03:07:56 PM
Greetings!

Well, here in the United States, there does seem to have been an increasing cascade of young, healthy people, many of which have been accomplished athletes, that have all died from very mysterious medical circumstances, not long after receiving yet *another* vaccine jab. Blood clotting, strokes, heart attacks, brain aneurisms, strange seizures--circumstances that are extremely unlikely and suspicious for people of their age cohort and physical health.

Such evidence, widespread and frequent, has definitely increased people's awareness and suspicion of having anything to do with vaccines or to continue getting more "boosters".

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Eirikrautha on May 23, 2023, 03:25:19 PM
I didn't make any "claims", I conjectured a very likely explanation. What with lots of jabbed people evincing mysterious symptoms they didn't experience before they were jabbed.

with the number of people being vaccinated at the time, one could use this before-amd-after logic to find correlation between the injection and anything at all - from car accidents to getting crabs. conjecture my ass.

Funny, asking for the same standard of evidence for the effectiveness of the vaccine was frowned upon.  Especially now that we know conclusively that the vaccine does not prevent infect (which was a government claim), does not prevent transmission (ditto), and only provides a modest reduction in severity in the number of people who would have severe reactions to Covid (it does not blanket reduce the severity of the illness, it only reduces the severity of severe cases... meaning it does NOTHING for the 90% of the people who would never have gotten severe Covid).  So, yeah, I find your sudden confidence it the rules of evidence amusing...
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Brad on May 23, 2023, 03:31:47 PM
ever heard of cherry picking and how increasing sample size in statistics also makes it easier for bad actors - like deliberate frauds and, yes, conspiracy nuts - to do it?

that clown over there decided, by "conjecture", that the girl in a far away country had bleeding and pains in her womanly parts as a side effect of her vaccine injection. and when asked how he made that amazing deduction you'd think he would at least go out there and google to see if there was a statistical study among women that would support his claim - but, unsurprisingly, he just kept beating his chest, claiming awesome powers of observation, and calling others names.

so LOL yourself.

Just keep on deluding yourself that government sponsored "research" isn't 100% agenda-driven trash. I know this is an RPG board, but not every game has to be fantasy.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Klava on May 24, 2023, 03:52:20 AM
ever heard of cherry picking and how increasing sample size in statistics also makes it easier for bad actors - like deliberate frauds and, yes, conspiracy nuts - to do it?

that clown over there decided, by "conjecture", that the girl in a far away country had bleeding and pains in her womanly parts as a side effect of her vaccine injection. and when asked how he made that amazing deduction you'd think he would at least go out there and google to see if there was a statistical study among women that would support his claim - but, unsurprisingly, he just kept beating his chest, claiming awesome powers of observation, and calling others names.

so LOL yourself.

Just keep on deluding yourself that government sponsored "research" isn't 100% agenda-driven trash. I know this is an RPG board, but not every game has to be fantasy.

just keep on pinning stuff on other people and accusing them of stuff they never said or remotely implied.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Klava on May 24, 2023, 03:59:14 AM
evidence, widespread and frequent, has definitely increased people's awareness and suspicion of having anything to do with vaccines or to continue getting more "boosters".

care to link some evidence here? because i went googling many times and nothing i discovered would withstand even the most basic scrutiny.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: SHARK on May 24, 2023, 07:50:53 AM
evidence, widespread and frequent, has definitely increased people's awareness and suspicion of having anything to do with vaccines or to continue getting more "boosters".

care to link some evidence here? because i went googling many times and nothing i discovered would withstand even the most basic scrutiny.

Greetings!

I'm sorry, lava, I don't have the links that talk about it. Over the last year and more, there have been all kinds of cases in the news about so many strange deaths happening with young people after getting vaccinated. It has been too many cases, and I did not save them for you. People everywhere here have noticed these things, and the cases have been widely discussed with growing alarm and suspicion about the vaccinations because of it.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: GeekyBugle on May 24, 2023, 04:11:04 PM
evidence, widespread and frequent, has definitely increased people's awareness and suspicion of having anything to do with vaccines or to continue getting more "boosters".

care to link some evidence here? because i went googling many times and nothing i discovered would withstand even the most basic scrutiny.

Now, do an experiment:

Google the pay gap debunked, there was a study made BY feminists that disproves it, see if you can find it or the articles that talk about it.

When you come empty handed realize that Google filters the results to fit the party approved narrative.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ratman_tf on May 25, 2023, 01:40:38 AM
evidence, widespread and frequent, has definitely increased people's awareness and suspicion of having anything to do with vaccines or to continue getting more "boosters".

care to link some evidence here? because i went googling many times and nothing i discovered would withstand even the most basic scrutiny.

Now, do an experiment:

Google the pay gap debunked, there was a study made BY feminists that disproves it, see if you can find it or the articles that talk about it.

When you come empty handed realize that Google filters the results to fit the party approved narrative.

While I do think google curates content ideologically, I was able to find stuff on this topic pretty easily. Christina Hoff Sommers came up on the top of the list.

https://www.google.com/search?q=pay+gap+debunked+by+feminist+study&oq=pay+gap+debunked+by+feminist+study&aqs=chrome..69i57.7758j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: GeekyBugle on May 25, 2023, 09:56:48 AM
evidence, widespread and frequent, has definitely increased people's awareness and suspicion of having anything to do with vaccines or to continue getting more "boosters".

care to link some evidence here? because i went googling many times and nothing i discovered would withstand even the most basic scrutiny.

Now, do an experiment:

Google the pay gap debunked, there was a study made BY feminists that disproves it, see if you can find it or the articles that talk about it.

When you come empty handed realize that Google filters the results to fit the party approved narrative.

While I do think google curates content ideologically, I was able to find stuff on this topic pretty easily. Christina Hoff Sommers came up on the top of the list.

https://www.google.com/search?q=pay+gap+debunked+by+feminist+study&oq=pay+gap+debunked+by+feminist+study&aqs=chrome..69i57.7758j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

Well, that's new, it used to be buried several pages down.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on June 27, 2023, 06:45:02 AM
This is hilarious: https://twitter.com/DHSCgovuk/status/1673292524889284608

The Department of Health and Social Care (ie the UK's health ministry) urges people who haven't been jabbed to get it quick, before the stocks expire on 1st July. Doing the bidding of their real masters in Big Pharma.

Why the fuck would anyone who's resisted the pressure of the last 2 years suddenly cave now?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ratman_tf on July 16, 2023, 02:34:15 AM
.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Spinachcat on July 16, 2023, 02:58:42 AM
.Why the fuck would anyone who's resisted the pressure of the last 2 years suddenly cave now?

We can only hope the woketards and Covidiots rush to get their bonus boosters before the supply runs out!

I've certainly donated mine...to their well-being.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Eirikrautha on July 16, 2023, 10:02:46 AM
So, it turns out that a researcher who started comparing the primary cause of death stated on death certificates in Massachusetts discovered that the CDC to those deaths and then coded a bunch that were NOT from COVID as COVID deaths.  When he checked Minnesota, he found the same.  So this wasn't a case of them deciding that "death WITH Covid" should be "death FROM Covid," this was straight up lying about the cause of death.

https://brownstone.org/articles/the-great-covid-laundering-scheme/
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Klava on July 17, 2023, 09:54:41 AM
Quote from: Brownstone Institute -> about
Brownstone Institute is a nonprofit 501(c)(3) organization founded May 2021. Its vision is of a society that places the highest value on the voluntary interaction of individuals and groups while minimizing the use of violence and force including that which is exercised by public or private authorities.

Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Eirikrautha on July 17, 2023, 10:10:15 AM
Quote from: Brownstone Institute -> about
Brownstone Institute is a nonprofit 501(c)(3) organization founded May 2021. Its vision is of a society that places the highest value on the voluntary interaction of individuals and groups while minimizing the use of violence and force including that which is exercised by public or private authorities.



So, how does that make their statistics wrong?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Klava on July 17, 2023, 10:51:10 AM
So, how does that make their statistics wrong?

how does one check their statistics for bullshit?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Eirikrautha on July 17, 2023, 11:29:09 AM
So, how does that make their statistics wrong?

how does one check their statistics for bullshit?

CDC coded deaths are public record.  Death Certificates are public records.  You make a public records request to the CDC and Massachusetts and compare the numbers.  The claims in this article are MORE verifiable than the vast majority of those made by government and media.  I await your checking of their statistics. 

Or, you can just disagree with the conclusions because it doesn't fit your personal biases, while not having the wherewithal to actually find where they are wrong.  That would be the lazy, partisan way out.  Of course, that would mean you would have to dismiss any other information from any source that you couldn't directly verify, if you wanted to be consistent.  But why do I think your concern for "bullshit" is narrowly tailored here...?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Klava on July 17, 2023, 01:38:25 PM
So, how does that make their statistics wrong?

how does one check their statistics for bullshit?

CDC coded deaths are public record.  Death Certificates are public records.  You make a public records request to the CDC and Massachusetts and compare the numbers.  The claims in this article are MORE verifiable than the vast majority of those made by government and media.

statistics is just data. i only gave it a quick look - mostly for sighs of scientific research, editor readings and peer reviews. haven't found any yet. have you seen anything of those kinds?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Klava on July 17, 2023, 01:49:57 PM
or maybe your point is that there's a criminal case there? well, why then are they publishing their evidence for it on a web site of a non-profit for freedom freedom freedom oy, instead of suing whoever it is they think have wronged them?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Brad on July 17, 2023, 02:40:27 PM
statistics is just data. i only gave it a quick look - mostly for sighs of scientific research, editor readings and peer reviews. haven't found any yet. have you seen anything of those kinds?

Imagine typing this crap.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Eirikrautha on July 17, 2023, 06:10:39 PM
statistics is just data. i only gave it a quick look - mostly for sighs of scientific research, editor readings and peer reviews. haven't found any yet. have you seen anything of those kinds?

Imagine typing this crap.

The most amusing part is that he did exactly what I said he would do.  Imagine expecting peer review of a comparison of data tables.  You think every time NBC News quotes CDC data they do a peer-reviewed article first?  Covidiots will be Covidiots...
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Eirikrautha on July 17, 2023, 06:13:46 PM
or maybe your point is that there's a criminal case there? well, why then are they publishing their evidence for it on a web site of a non-profit for freedom freedom freedom oy, instead of suing whoever it is they think have wronged them?

Criminal cases are prosecuted by the government against a defendant.  Civil cases are monetary (usually) claims by a plaintiff against a defendant.  You clearly don't know the difference, based on your conflation of "criminal" and "suing."  I would imagine your understanding of medicine is as tenuous as your understanding of the American legal system...
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: jhkim on July 17, 2023, 07:04:55 PM
I just went through determining cause of death for my father-in-law this past December, and what I got out of that experience is that the original death certificate is extremely arbitrary.

If someone is old and they keel over, the written cause of death seems to be just a off-the-cuff guess from the medical professional who first encounters the body. Unless there is a criminal investigation, that's all there typically is. We had to shell out a lot of money to get a private autopsy, and even that wasn't very conclusive. We learned he had an undiagnosed heart condition, but he had it for years, and it is still just a guess that he died from that at the time.

So while the CDC likely was overestimating, I understand that they don't want to rely on the original death certificate as absolute - which could be written by someone who has no idea they even had covid-19. So there's wide error bars around official death counts either way.

---

Still, many different countries cross-checked these cause-of-deaths by looking at overall death rate by age -- and those have been generally consistent with the other data. There are still wide error bars, but it isn't off by an order of magnitude.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Eirikrautha on July 17, 2023, 07:45:13 PM
So while the CDC likely was overestimating, I understand that they don't want to rely on the original death certificate as absolute - which could be written by someone who has no idea they even had covid-19.

And how would the CDC determine that the cause of death was Covid if they didn't see the body, do an autopsy, or even have the medical records of the deceased?  The CDC recoded thousands of deaths, without ever seeing a single body, administratively.  Look at the list of CoDs that they recoded.

Can you even recognize the truth anymore, or have you lied to the point where you literally cannot distinguish fact from fiction?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Brad on July 17, 2023, 07:49:50 PM
The most amusing part is that he did exactly what I said he would do.  Imagine expecting peer review of a comparison of data tables.  You think every time NBC News quotes CDC data they do a peer-reviewed article first?  Covidiots will be Covidiots...

Are you a SCIENTIST?!!?? If not you’re completely incapable of looking at a chart and comparing numbers. Leave that to the Expert$$$$.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Klava on July 18, 2023, 03:14:02 AM
statistics is just data. i only gave it a quick look - mostly for sighs of scientific research, editor readings and peer reviews. haven't found any yet. have you seen anything of those kinds?

Imagine typing this crap.

The most amusing part is that he did exactly what I said he would do.

the most amusing part is, imo, is that you yourself didn't even ask any questions. you went out there, found a piece of crap that corresponds to your pre-conceptions, and just wholesale re-posted it here. and then it's up to those skeptical about this shit to burden themselves with fact-checking those mofos tryring to sell their little presence in the media to the highest bidder not-profit freedom lovers? really?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Brad on July 18, 2023, 03:34:39 AM
the most amusing part is, imo, is that you yourself didn't even ask any questions. you went out there, found a piece of crap that corresponds to your pre-conceptions, and just wholesale re-posted it here. and then it's up to those skeptical about this shit to burden themselves with fact-checking those mofos tryring to sell their little presence in the media to the highest bidder not-profit freedom lovers? really?

"I don't like what these numbers imply because they mean I am wrong, therefore you are stupid."
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Klava on July 18, 2023, 03:39:45 AM
or maybe your point is that there's a criminal case there? well, why then are they publishing their evidence for it on a web site of a non-profit for freedom freedom freedom oy, instead of suing whoever it is they think have wronged them?

Criminal cases are prosecuted by the government against a defendant.  Civil cases are monetary (usually) claims by a plaintiff against a defendant.  You clearly don't know the difference, based on your conflation of "criminal" and "suing."  I would imagine your understanding of medicine is as tenuous as your understanding of the American legal system...

my knowledge of medicine is decent i'd say. and when in doubt i just go the the medical pros and ask - i have some good friends in the field, phd's and all. every piece of anti-vaxer and covid conspiracy bullshit i have come across to this day they've been able to completely dismantle in minutes.

as to american legal system - guilty as charged. i'm a foreigner, so i think it's okay for me not to know any specifics.

what i'm realy good at is basic logic, though. which you seem to have no grasp whatsoever, at least when it comes to defending you conspiracy theories. so, here goes again:
statistics is just data - that's a fact of the world around you. you can use it to make something like a scientific study or a criminal or other legal case, which then have to go through quite a bit of checking and processing to be validated. unless you, or your proponents of freedom freedom freedom oi, take their time to go through those steps, you are - even if all the statistics you present is a hundred percent accurate -  sill left with nothing whatsoever.
staistics themselves imply nothing.
zilch.
nada.

in this case all they've been able to demonstrate is discrepancy in the data they obtained from different sources. and that's it. (eidt: that is, if they didn't doctor that data. which you, i assume, didn't check because your awesome powers of observation don't require any of that).
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Brad on July 18, 2023, 06:47:13 AM
if they didn't doctor that data

Oh, the data has been doctored of course. But just by the people who claim are infallible.

Quote
freedom freedom freedom

Is it fun being told what to do and think? Seems easy if you're a dumbfuck.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Exploderwizard on July 18, 2023, 12:15:48 PM
my knowledge of medicine is decent i'd say. and when in doubt i just go the the medical pros and ask - i have some good friends in the field, phd's and all. every piece of anti-vaxer and covid conspiracy bullshit i have come across to this day they've been able to completely dismantle in minutes.

Oh sure. The experts can justify anything, and frequently do to maintain their license and keep the dough rolling because they have medical school debt to pay off. The medical field is controlled by the same folks who run government and media. Why do you think med school is so expensive? To create debt slaves who will obey. Prior to COVID I generally trusted doctors. Now I am much more skeptical. Doctors may have extensive training and expertise but they are still people subject to the same foibles as anyone else, which includes going along to get along and being able to continue to provide for their families. Why, for example in 2019 was the notion of wearing a face diaper to block viral transmission laughable but in 2020 suddenly these same face diapers could block that viral transmission, and all the "experts" suddenly nodded in agreement. If they had suddenly found out how effective it was why didn't virologists working in a lab with live viruses ditch their containment suits and strap on a paper mask?

Doctors (the vast majority) do not think logically or worry about science or the lack thereof. They are fucking yes men to the NIH,WHO and CDC. These agencies are run by the toadies of the world elites who are not shy about their plans, which include a major depopulation of the planet. Oh boy that is just who I want my doctor answering to.

There is still no non bullshit explanation of why overall deaths from all sources were very similar and stable in both 2019 and 2020. Only in 2021 after the vax was rolled out did excess deaths start piling up.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Scooter on July 18, 2023, 02:13:04 PM
Being at the beginning of my 7th decade of life I have lots of older relations.  In the first year of the recent gov't created hysteria two of them died from cancer a few months apart, in different states.  They both didn't catch the cancer it until far too late. They both died, as predicted by their doctors within a couple weeks.  Both caught Covid a week or so before death while in the hospital.  Didn't matter as they were dead anyway.  HOWEVER, both death certs listed Covid as cause of death.

  That got my sensors switched on so I contacted a person I know who works in our County Health Dept.  I told him about this deception and he confirmed that in our state too if a person has Covid when they die (for any but physical trauma reasons) they have to list it as a Covid death.  AND, our county had a higher death count a few years before Covid due to a really nasty flu strain that went around the geriatric set.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Exploderwizard on July 18, 2023, 03:21:03 PM
Being at the beginning of my 7th decade of life I have lots of older relations.  In the first year of the recent gov't created hysteria two of them died from cancer a few months apart, in different states.  They both didn't catch the cancer it until far too late. They both died, as predicted by their doctors within a couple weeks.  Both caught Covid a week or so before death while in the hospital.  Didn't matter as they were dead anyway.  HOWEVER, both death certs listed Covid as cause of death.

  That got my sensors switched on so I contacted a person I know who works in our County Health Dept.  I told him about this deception and he confirmed that in our state too if a person has Covid when they die (for any but physical trauma reasons) they have to list it as a Covid death.  AND, our county had a higher death count a few years before Covid due to a really nasty flu strain that went around the geriatric set.

Sorry for your losses. Yeah that would tie in to the overall flat death rate for the year. Certain cancers, regular influenza, and other maladies took a holiday in 2020. If you want the real dirt then look into how much money the hospital got for each reported covid death.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on July 22, 2023, 11:51:19 AM
I'd love to know how our resident genius can dismantle this review of pathological studies:



Causal link between the jab and fatal myocarditis.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Scooter on July 22, 2023, 03:20:24 PM
ALL the people I know who got a vaccine ended up getting Covid up to present.  All I know who did NOT get the vaccine did NOT get Covid except two very old people who were in the hospital already dying.  About 30 people in each category.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on July 22, 2023, 05:08:06 PM
ALL the people I know who got a vaccine ended up getting Covid up to present.  All I know who did NOT get the vaccine did NOT get Covid except two very old people who were in the hospital already dying.  About 30 people in each category.

Everyone has had the sniffles irrespective of their jab status. As a general rule, the unjabbed had it much less severe (on the scale of flu to cold) than the jabbed, because their immune system hasn't been fucked.

There are muppets still testing themselves for covid when they get a cold.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Scooter on July 22, 2023, 05:53:12 PM
ALL the people I know who got a vaccine ended up getting Covid up to present.  All I know who did NOT get the vaccine did NOT get Covid except two very old people who were in the hospital already dying.  About 30 people in each category.

Everyone has had the sniffles irrespective of their jab status. As a general rule, the unjabbed had it much less severe (on the scale of flu to cold) than the jabbed, because their immune system hasn't been fucked.


"sniffles"  ≠ Covid.  What ARE you babbling on about?  Can you read Englsih?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on July 22, 2023, 06:18:27 PM
"sniffles"  ≠ Covid.  What ARE you babbling on about?  Can you read Englsih?

Covid is the sniffles. I've had worse flu. The whole thing has been a deliberate and cynical scam over the common cold.

Vulnerable people die from cold and flu every single year, always have. None of that changed in 2020, barring the euthanasia, terminal ventilation, killing people with experimental drugs like Remdesivir, and changing the policy on what could be classed as the cause of death.

On the other hand since 2021 we've had elevated excess mortality caused by side effects from the jabs.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Scooter on July 22, 2023, 06:42:46 PM
"sniffles"  ≠ Covid.  What ARE you babbling on about?  Can you read Englsih?

Covid is the sniffles. I've had worse flu. T

(https://cdn.pixabay.com/animation/2022/08/17/03/45/03-45-12-425_512.gif)
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on July 23, 2023, 12:03:45 PM
(https://cdn.pixabay.com/animation/2022/08/17/03/45/03-45-12-425_512.gif)

You've lived through 3 years of the authorities spewing utter bullshit about a non-existent pandemic, and that's all you've got?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on July 26, 2023, 03:41:45 PM
National emergency declared in Peru over jab side effects. Sorry, "contaminated tap water" which causes paralysis.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on July 26, 2023, 06:15:19 PM
Swiss study showed 1 in 35 had heart damage after the Moderna booster:

Safe and effective!
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Brad on July 26, 2023, 08:31:43 PM
You've lived through 3 years of the authorities spewing utter bullshit about a non-existent pandemic, and that's all you've got?

That’s the old fat guy with multiple comorbidities response. No healthy human under the age of 60 had anything to worry about besides a bad flu. Unfortunately for gamers, most tend to be old fat guys with multiple comorbitities….
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Scooter on July 26, 2023, 09:34:34 PM
i have some good friends in the field, phd's and all. every piece of anti-vaxer and covid conspiracy bullshit i have come across to this day they've been able to completely dismantle in minutes.

Insta fail for argumentum ab auctoritate.  Only the terminally uneducated do that when losing an argument.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on July 27, 2023, 08:18:46 AM
That’s the old fat guy with multiple comorbidities response. No healthy human under the age of 60 had anything to worry about besides a bad flu. Unfortunately for gamers, most tend to be old fat guys with multiple comorbitities….

In 2020 I was 40 and fitter than 95% of the population. I ignored all the guidelines and restrictions and carried on, getting even fitter still during the lockdowns.

I still have zero comorbidities and have had worse bouts of flu than my brushes with the 'rona. Which is hardly surprising, what with it being the common cold.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Garry G on July 30, 2023, 11:06:51 AM
That’s the old fat guy with multiple comorbidities response. No healthy human under the age of 60 had anything to worry about besides a bad flu. Unfortunately for gamers, most tend to be old fat guys with multiple comorbitities….

In 2020 I was 40 and fitter than 95% of the population. I ignored all the guidelines and restrictions and carried on, getting even fitter still during the lockdowns.

I still have zero comorbidities and have had worse bouts of flu than my brushes with the 'rona. Which is hardly surprising, what with it being the common cold.

But you haven't had it.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Scooter on July 30, 2023, 01:33:11 PM

But you haven't had it.

Some people don't get it.  I'm immune naturally.  So is my wife. 

Survival of the greatest
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: GeekyBugle on July 30, 2023, 02:33:30 PM
When even far left lunatics can tell the truth from the propaganda appart better than the "follow teh science!" brigade...

Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Scooter on July 30, 2023, 02:56:52 PM
When even far left lunatics can tell the truth from the propaganda appart better than the "follow teh science!" brigade...



THIS is why accurate, high ROF small arms were invented.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on July 31, 2023, 08:17:00 AM
But you haven't had it.

Course I've had it, you stupid fucker. I was out in the world being exposed to people as normal, not cowering at home behind my sofa because the man on the telly told me to. I've had the exact same thing that other people ill at the same time tested "positive" for.

Covid is a cold. Because that's the expression of coronaviruses, along with the dozen other viruses that ping the shitty tests that don't actually work.

Keep living in your BBC-sponsored delusion there was a major global health emergency in 2020, though. Maybe it keeps you warm at night or something.

Some people don't get it.  I'm immune naturally.  So is my wife. 

Survival of the greatest

I have children and I went out every single day and ignored all the guidelines. Never wore a mask, never paid any attention to anti-social distancing, didn't use the shitty hand sanitiser, didn't get jabbed.

I had respiratory infections at the same time other people tested positive. My immunity is great, which is why they were trivial things I shrugged off after very little time and never required any kind of medical attention.

Because there was no pandemic, no deadly virus doing the rounds, just another bad flu season. That wasn't even that bad. People killed by the jabs, on the other hand...
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Scooter on July 31, 2023, 08:32:29 AM

I have children and I went out every single day and ignored all the guidelines. Never wore a mask, never paid any attention to anti-social distancing, didn't use the shitty hand sanitiser, didn't get jabbed.

I had respiratory infections at the same time other people tested positive. My immunity is great, which is why they were trivial things I shrugged off after very little time and never required any kind of medical attention.

Because there was no pandemic, no deadly virus doing the rounds, just another bad flu season. That wasn't even that bad. People killed by the jabs, on the other hand...

I haven't been ill since 1988.  My body doesn't succumb to colds and flu since I was in my early 20's. I visited relatives in hospitals when Covid was at its height.  You are right.  There was no global pandemic any more than every year when a new flu strain comes about. Wearing the masks they supply are ineffective against viruses.  The only gear that can stop those are the full suits that the military wears against biological weapons.   But, 99.9% of people are not educated above the 3rd grade level.  Otherwise they'd know how small viruses are and laugh at the masks people were wearing.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Garry G on July 31, 2023, 02:23:33 PM
But you haven't had it.

Course I've had it, you stupid fucker. I was out in the world being exposed to people as normal, not cowering at home behind my sofa because the man on the telly told me to. I've had the exact same thing that other people ill at the same time tested "positive" for.

Covid is a cold. Because that's the expression of coronaviruses, along with the dozen other viruses that ping the shitty tests that don't actually work.

Keep living in your BBC-sponsored delusion there was a major global health emergency in 2020, though. Maybe it keeps you warm at night or something.


But you may have completely avoided it. You might have had a cold or the sniffles flu or something, you don't know so there's no reason to accept your assertion that you've had it. You just assert stuff because, I actually don't know why you assert stuff. I mean you're reasonably bright, have a good job and appear to be able have adult relationships so I really don't know why.

I'll ask again, when you're out having a coffee with family and friends and start talking about how this is all a big conspiracy and they should stop being fooled by the BBC how do they react? I'm sure this has come up in the workplace when somebody has been off with covid, what's the conversation when you comment that it's just the cold?

What are your daily interactions with people when you tell them about the international conspiracy to Re-set the world economy that's run through the UN, WHO and EU?

To be fair if I was you I might be a bit circumspect because there is always an outside chance that the conspirators might realise your genius and take you away to an idyllic Welsh village where you'll have confusing conversations and be chased by giant beach balls.

Look mate I know you're of the opinion that you're cognizant of how everything really works and the rest of us are just sheeples but you can do more. Explain the massive conspiracy that selects Prime Ministers in the UK only to replace them in weeks, that manages to use it's influence to make countries act in wildly different ways and has an agenda of making shops be a short walk away. Lay it all out in n a simple word document, PDF or even some nightmarish hyperlink trail. Surely you can be more than just an angry little man on an RPG forum? You once had designs on politics, running for your local council, be the change you want to see.

You can start by laying it all out to me. Let me see what I'm missing in my blinkered sheepish life. Start with one fuckwit then take on the world.

Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Brad on July 31, 2023, 02:32:59 PM
But you may have completely avoided it. You might have had a cold or the sniffles flu or something, you don't know so there's no reason to accept your assertion that you've had it. You just assert stuff because, I actually don't know why you assert stuff. I mean you're reasonably bright, have a good job and appear to be able have adult relationships so I really don't know why.

I'll ask again, when you're out having a coffee with family and friends and start talking about how this is all a big conspiracy and they should stop being fooled by the BBC how do they react? I'm sure this has come up in the workplace when somebody has been off with covid, what's the conversation when you comment that it's just the cold?

What are your daily interactions with people when you tell them about the international conspiracy to Re-set the world economy that's run through the UN, WHO and EU?

To be fair if I was you I might be a bit circumspect because there is always an outside chance that the conspirators might realise your genius and take you away to an idyllic Welsh village where you'll have confusing conversations and be chased by giant beach balls.

Look mate I know you're of the opinion that you're cognizant of how everything really works and the rest of us are just sheeples but you can do more. Explain the massive conspiracy that selects Prime Ministers in the UK only to replace them in weeks, that manages to use it's influence to make countries act in wildly different ways and has an agenda of making shops be a short walk away. Lay it all out in n a simple word document, PDF or even some nightmarish hyperlink trail. Surely you can be more than just an angry little man on an RPG forum? You once had designs on politics, running for your local council, be the change you want to see.

You can start by laying it all out to me. Let me see what I'm missing in my blinkered sheepish life. Start with one fuckwit then take on the world.

You seem to have a vested interest in perpetuating this fantasy, so I must wonder if you work for Klaus Schwab and/or Pfizer. Are you at least getting paid for making these posts?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Garry G on July 31, 2023, 02:42:11 PM
You seem to have a vested interest in perpetuating this fantasy, so I must wonder if you work for Klaus Schwab and/or Pfizer. Are you at least getting paid for making these posts?

I would dearly love to be paid for these posts. If you can lay out clearly how the conspiracy works, diagrams would be ideal, and provide a contact to forward my CV to I would be grateful. I didn't realise it would be this east to make a contact.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Scooter on July 31, 2023, 02:49:51 PM

I would dearly love to be paid for these posts. If you can lay out clearly how the conspiracy works, diagrams would be ideal, and provide a contact to forward my CV to I would be grateful. I didn't realise it would be this east to make a contact.

"works"?  You mean how it worked.  Easy, the gov broadcast false info that a highly fatal disease was rapidly spreading across the globe and then starts violating peoples rights and there was no highly dangerous disease spreading across the globe.  In my state one can go to the public health Dept. and look at the records that document how undeadly the thing was and that 3 years prior there was a flu that was more deadly but still nothing to be concerned over.  I remember 2 years into the scam the San Diego County Health Dept. published that the death rate there from Covid was 0% for those in the age range of 0 - 40 years and negligible for those older.

Are you that fcking stupid?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Garry G on July 31, 2023, 03:07:01 PM

I would dearly love to be paid for these posts. If you can lay out clearly how the conspiracy works, diagrams would be ideal, and provide a contact to forward my CV to I would be grateful. I didn't realise it would be this east to make a contact.

"works"?  You mean how it worked.  Easy, the gov broadcast false info that a highly fatal disease was rapidly spreading across the globe and then starts violating peoples rights and there was no highly dangerous disease spreading across the globe.  In my state one can go to the public health Dept. and look at the records that document how undeadly the thing was and that 3 years prior there was a flu that was more deadly but still nothing to be concerned over.  I remember 2 years into the scam the San Diego County Health Dept. published that the death rate there from Covid was 0% for those in the age range of 0 - 40 years and negligible for those older.

Are you that fcking stupid?

I clearly am that fucking stupid so I need it outlined in a very thorough manner. Diagrams and details help.

Which government broadcast exactly what?

State? Nation state or a state in a nation?

I think you're talking about stuff that happened in a state in your nation but can you see how you are already being unclear? Keiro has been talking about a concerted conspiracy manipulating global institutions, nations and apparently San Diego County to an extent that only you enlightened people know what's going on. I'm cool with that, I saw the X-Files and I want to believe. Give me something to go on here.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Scooter on July 31, 2023, 03:17:34 PM

I would dearly love to be paid for these posts. If you can lay out clearly how the conspiracy works, diagrams would be ideal, and provide a contact to forward my CV to I would be grateful. I didn't realise it would be this east to make a contact.

"works"?  You mean how it worked.  Easy, the gov broadcast false info that a highly fatal disease was rapidly spreading across the globe and then starts violating peoples rights and there was no highly dangerous disease spreading across the globe.  In my state one can go to the public health Dept. and look at the records that document how undeadly the thing was and that 3 years prior there was a flu that was more deadly but still nothing to be concerned over.  I remember 2 years into the scam the San Diego County Health Dept. published that the death rate there from Covid was 0% for those in the age range of 0 - 40 years and negligible for those older.

Are you that fcking stupid?

I clearly am that fucking stupid so I need it outlined in a very thorough manner. Diagrams and details help.



With those questions your stupidity is NOT in question.  You are safely ensconced in the Stupid Hall of Fame
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Brad on July 31, 2023, 03:47:33 PM
I would dearly love to be paid for these posts. If you can lay out clearly how the conspiracy works, diagrams would be ideal, and provide a contact to forward my CV to I would be grateful. I didn't realise it would be this east to make a contact.

What conspiracy? There's no conspiracy here. The lockdowns were predicated upon utter horseshit. How is this a conspiracy?

It wouldn't matter if God Himself descended from the heavens and provided you with indisputable fact drilled directly into your brain. Some people are incapable of being anything other than sheep, as is being demonstrated.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Garry G on July 31, 2023, 04:11:49 PM
So questioning what people say makes me a stupid sheep and your inability to answer means...

OTOH I like Brad's "everything's horseshit" answer. I mean it's not an answer but it smells of Brad.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Scooter on July 31, 2023, 04:20:27 PM
So questioning what people say makes me a stupid sheep
OTOH I like Brad's "everything's horseshit" answer. I mean it's not an answer but it smells of Brad.

No, not seeing what happened in front of you makes you beyond a stupid sheep.  You didn't see the gov't illegally forcing businesses to close?  You were too stupid to check the gov's primary docs online that showed no significant increase in deaths in the USA during the "deadly pandemic"?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on July 31, 2023, 07:02:28 PM
No, not seeing what happened in front of you makes you beyond a stupid sheep.  You didn't see the gov't illegally forcing businesses to close?  You were too stupid to check the gov's primary docs online that showed no significant increase in deaths in the USA during the "deadly pandemic"?

Garry isn't American, he's Scottish. He's had the privilege of experiencing an government even more incompetent and corrupt than mine in Westminster.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on July 31, 2023, 07:09:13 PM
But you may have completely avoided it. You might have had a cold or the sniffles flu or something, you don't know so there's no reason to accept your assertion that you've had it. You just assert stuff because, I actually don't know why you assert stuff. I mean you're reasonably bright, have a good job and appear to be able have adult relationships so I really don't know why.

I'll ask again, when you're out having a coffee with family and friends and start talking about how this is all a big conspiracy and they should stop being fooled by the BBC how do they react? I'm sure this has come up in the workplace when somebody has been off with covid, what's the conversation when you comment that it's just the cold?

What are your daily interactions with people when you tell them about the international conspiracy to Re-set the world economy that's run through the UN, WHO and EU?

To be fair if I was you I might be a bit circumspect because there is always an outside chance that the conspirators might realise your genius and take you away to an idyllic Welsh village where you'll have confusing conversations and be chased by giant beach balls.

Look mate I know you're of the opinion that you're cognizant of how everything really works and the rest of us are just sheeples but you can do more. Explain the massive conspiracy that selects Prime Ministers in the UK only to replace them in weeks, that manages to use it's influence to make countries act in wildly different ways and has an agenda of making shops be a short walk away. Lay it all out in n a simple word document, PDF or even some nightmarish hyperlink trail. Surely you can be more than just an angry little man on an RPG forum? You once had designs on politics, running for your local council, be the change you want to see.

You can start by laying it all out to me. Let me see what I'm missing in my blinkered sheepish life. Start with one fuckwit then take on the world.

You really need to make up your mind which part of the narrative you're pushing today. Wasn't covid the most infectious virus EVAR? Never mind that the serological reporting showed pretty clearly that within months everyone had been infected. I'm "asserting" the patently fucking obvious. I was out and about in the world, exposed to people. Lots of whom at various points "tested positive" and shared their germs with me.

It does amuse me that you're at such pains to try and make out I'm the delusional one when you're still clearly on board with all the bullshit lies, despite them being ever-changing. Don't know how you lot keep it all straight.

Nor do I believe for a minute any of your snide patter is genuine. You've got that smug self-assurance of the Guardianista who thinks they know how things are because they're a cut above the plebs.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Brad on July 31, 2023, 08:38:08 PM
So questioning what people say makes me a stupid sheep and your inability to answer means...

OTOH I like Brad's "everything's horseshit" answer. I mean it's not an answer but it smells of Brad.

You’re parroting the MSM narrative, clown boy. You haven’t actually asked a single question in good faith.

Furthermore, there are two positions you can now take after all this shamdemic nonsense: 1) the “government” would never lie to you and you can believe people in the media and positions of authority, regardless of how ridiculous it seems, and 2) they’re all fucking liars and you should assume everything they say is self-serving horseshit. If you pick #1, I got some bad news, Bozo…
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Scooter on July 31, 2023, 08:55:25 PM
Garry isn't American, he's Scottish. He's had the privilege of experiencing an government even more incompetent and corrupt than mine in Westminster.

God, talk about a country full of sheep.  ~4,900 people were imprisoned over there last year for saying or posting something that upset another person.  Once you give up your guns you lose the rest of your rights...
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Garry G on August 02, 2023, 01:39:51 PM
But you may have completely avoided it. You might have had a cold or the sniffles flu or something, you don't know so there's no reason to accept your assertion that you've had it. You just assert stuff because, I actually don't know why you assert stuff. I mean you're reasonably bright, have a good job and appear to be able have adult relationships so I really don't know why.

I'll ask again, when you're out having a coffee with family and friends and start talking about how this is all a big conspiracy and they should stop being fooled by the BBC how do they react? I'm sure this has come up in the workplace when somebody has been off with covid, what's the conversation when you comment that it's just the cold?

What are your daily interactions with people when you tell them about the international conspiracy to Re-set the world economy that's run through the UN, WHO and EU?

To be fair if I was you I might be a bit circumspect because there is always an outside chance that the conspirators might realise your genius and take you away to an idyllic Welsh village where you'll have confusing conversations and be chased by giant beach balls.

Look mate I know you're of the opinion that you're cognizant of how everything really works and the rest of us are just sheeples but you can do more. Explain the massive conspiracy that selects Prime Ministers in the UK only to replace them in weeks, that manages to use it's influence to make countries act in wildly different ways and has an agenda of making shops be a short walk away. Lay it all out in n a simple word document, PDF or even some nightmarish hyperlink trail. Surely you can be more than just an angry little man on an RPG forum? You once had designs on politics, running for your local council, be the change you want to see.

You can start by laying it all out to me. Let me see what I'm missing in my blinkered sheepish life. Start with one fuckwit then take on the world.

You really need to make up your mind which part of the narrative you're pushing today. Wasn't covid the most infectious virus EVAR? Never mind that the serological reporting showed pretty clearly that within months everyone had been infected. I'm "asserting" the patently fucking obvious. I was out and about in the world, exposed to people. Lots of whom at various points "tested positive" and shared their germs with me.

It does amuse me that you're at such pains to try and make out I'm the delusional one when you're still clearly on board with all the bullshit lies, despite them being ever-changing. Don't know how you lot keep it all straight.

Nor do I believe for a minute any of your snide patter is genuine. You've got that smug self-assurance of the Guardianista who thinks they know how things are because they're a cut above the plebs.

I'm not picking any part of any narrative because I honestly don't have an agenda. I like how you put me as somebody who thinks he's better than the plebs after constantly talking about the sheep. I'm a lot less middle class than yourself and have never talked about sheeples, that's all on you buddyboy.

You saying you've had covid means nothing because you have no idea whether you've had covid or not. So you've not.

I'm not actually pushing any narrative. What I'm really interested is in the narrative that you're pushing forward. Just upthread you've noted that I'm Scottish and my government is more incompetent than Westminster. Putting aside that their both my government how does this explain your belief in the international conspiracy that is putting competent people into positions of power to take away our rights? This conspiracy seems to a bit rubbish if all it gives us is governments that don't manage anything. I've asked you to explain how it works, diagrams would be great, but you keep falling back on saying I'm a bit smug and not connected to the sheeple like you are.

What do your daily interactions with colleagues, friends and family look like? When you bring the international conspiracy up, which I'm sure you do especially with plebs, how do they react? Not that you ever answer any direct questions, I'm not feeling all that smug when I ask them I just want answers.



Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Garry G on August 02, 2023, 01:41:01 PM
Garry isn't American, he's Scottish. He's had the privilege of experiencing an government even more incompetent and corrupt than mine in Westminster.

God, talk about a country full of sheep.  ~4,900 people were imprisoned over there last year for saying or posting something that upset another person.  Once you give up your guns you lose the rest of your rights...

That's interesting, you got a citation?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Garry G on August 02, 2023, 01:43:32 PM

You’re parroting the MSM narrative, clown boy. You haven’t actually asked a single question in good faith.

Furthermore, there are two positions you can now take after all this shamdemic nonsense: 1) the “government” would never lie to you and you can believe people in the media and positions of authority, regardless of how ridiculous it seems, and 2) they’re all fucking liars and you should assume everything they say is self-serving horseshit. If you pick #1, I got some bad news, Bozo…

Both seem insane to me but boiling complicated stuff down into two choices is a bit insane. It's also too easy.

I'd say it reflects back on you but you already know that.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Scooter on August 02, 2023, 03:25:23 PM


That's interesting, you got a citation?

Reported by the UK gov
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Brad on August 02, 2023, 05:03:07 PM
Both seem insane to me but boiling complicated stuff down into two choices is a bit insane. It's also too easy.

I'd say it reflects back on you but you already know that.

Literal LOL @ your horseshit fence-sitting to try to maintain an air of sophistication. How many boosters did you get?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Garry G on August 03, 2023, 03:10:09 PM


That's interesting, you got a citation?

Reported by the UK gov

That narrows it down. Possibly on Gov.uk? You got a link?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Garry G on August 03, 2023, 03:11:00 PM
Both seem insane to me but boiling complicated stuff down into two choices is a bit insane. It's also too easy.

I'd say it reflects back on you but you already know that.

Literal LOL @ your horseshit fence-sitting to try to maintain an air of sophistication. How many boosters did you get?

Yeah you've definitely used words there.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Scooter on August 03, 2023, 04:11:59 PM


That's interesting, you got a citation?

Reported by the UK gov

Nope didn't save it.  Like 99.99% of the news I read.  Just ask your gov to tell you who has been sent to prison under the Law that criminalizes internet speech.  I'm sure your MP's office would give you the data.
That narrows it down. Possibly on Gov.uk? You got a link?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Brad on August 03, 2023, 04:34:59 PM
Yeah you've definitely used words there.

How many? Just give a number.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Garry G on August 03, 2023, 06:42:32 PM
Yeah you've definitely used words there.

How many? Just give a number.

42
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: consolcwby on August 03, 2023, 07:07:11 PM
Covid? That's sooo 2019! What we need is something new to abuse. So, who wants a new drug?https://youtu.be/N6uEMOeDZsA (https://youtu.be/N6uEMOeDZsA)... Looks like Minnesota is going to be the new Wuhan: https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2023/08/cdc-warns-anthrax-will-most-likely-be-used/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=cdc-warns-anthrax-will-most-likely-be-used

Seriously though, shouldn't everyone who didn't get the jab... already died of covid? That's what Dr. Tony Baloney Faux-chi-chi stated back in '20! Come on, man! Get with it already!
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Brad on August 03, 2023, 10:22:50 PM
Yeah you've definitely used words there.

How many? Just give a number.

42

Literally such a pussy you can’t admit how many clotshots you got because tv man said so. SAD!
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Garry G on August 04, 2023, 03:06:35 PM
Yeah you've definitely used words there.

How many? Just give a number.

42

Literally such a pussy you can’t admit how many clotshots you got because tv man said so. SAD!

So you agree with me? Cool beans.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Garry G on August 05, 2023, 01:23:32 PM


That's interesting, you got a citation?

Reported by the UK gov

Nope didn't save it.  Like 99.99% of the news I read.  Just ask your gov to tell you who has been sent to prison under the Law that criminalizes internet speech.  I'm sure your MP's office would give you the data.
That narrows it down. Possibly on Gov.uk? You got a link?

Still waiting for the citation
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Scooter on August 05, 2023, 04:20:58 PM


Still waiting for the citation

Why, are you retarded?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: GamerSince77 on August 05, 2023, 08:55:29 PM
Why, are you retarded?

Ah, look at you smooth brains pretending you have an argument for your treason.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Eirikrautha on August 05, 2023, 10:59:03 PM
Why, are you retarded?

Ah, look at you smooth brains pretending you have an argument for your treason.

“I'm sick and tired of people who say that if you debate and disagree with this administration, somehow you're not patriotic. We need to stand up and say we're Americans, and we have the right to debate and disagree with any administration.”
― Hillary Rodham Clinton
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Chris24601 on August 06, 2023, 12:29:36 AM
Why, are you retarded?

Ah, look at you smooth brains pretending you have an argument for your treason.

“I'm sick and tired of people who say that if you debate and disagree with this administration, somehow you're not patriotic. We need to stand up and say we're Americans, and we have the right to debate and disagree with any administration.”
― Hillary Rodham Clinton
"Rules for Thee, but not for Me" is the Democrat/Leftist mantra.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Brad on August 06, 2023, 08:47:28 AM
So you agree with me? Cool beans.

So it has to be at least three since you refuse to answer. Maybe four.

LOL

Ah, look at you smooth brains pretending you have an argument for your treason.

When I think of democracy, the first thing that comes to mind is labeling anyone who questions election results as a traitor. They don't do that in communist countries at all.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Chris24601 on August 06, 2023, 10:59:48 AM
So you agree with me? Cool beans.

So it has to be at least three since you refuse to answer. Maybe four.

LOL

Ah, look at you smooth brains pretending you have an argument for your treason.

When I think of democracy, the first thing that comes to mind is labeling anyone who questions election results as a traitor. They don't do that in communist countries at all.
It’s only “treason” when questioning Democrat “wins.”

https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=M6qJCCg45Ow
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Garry G on August 06, 2023, 11:34:55 AM
So you agree with me? Cool beans.

So it has to be at least three since you refuse to answer. Maybe four.

LOL

Ah, look at you smooth brains pretending you have an argument for your treason.

When I think of democracy, the first thing that comes to mind is labeling anyone who questions election results as a traitor. They don't do that in communist countries at all.

I can't parse what the question is to be honest. You just haver shite.

Who's being labelled a traitor for questioning election results?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Chris24601 on August 06, 2023, 01:33:47 PM
So you agree with me? Cool beans.

So it has to be at least three since you refuse to answer. Maybe four.

LOL

Ah, look at you smooth brains pretending you have an argument for your treason.

When I think of democracy, the first thing that comes to mind is labeling anyone who questions election results as a traitor. They don't do that in communist countries at all.

I can't parse what the question is to be honest. You just haver shite.

Who's being labelled a traitor for questioning election results?
Its either 'treason' for questioning elections or the even more ridiculous claim that refusing to take the 'clot shot' (or point out its many side effects) is somehow treason.

Seeing as how there were whole swaths of the country were receiving the clot shot was entirely optional and there were no laws to enforce receiving it there's no way that could be treason, ergo it must be related to some other aspect of challenging the State's A-thor-ah-tay!!! with the current Lefty zeitgeist being that questioning election results makes you a traitor.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ghostmaker on August 07, 2023, 08:37:15 AM
Why, are you retarded?

Ah, look at you smooth brains pretending you have an argument for your treason.
No one cares what you think, Tubesnake.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Brad on August 08, 2023, 01:29:07 PM
I can't parse what the question is to be honest. You just haver shite.

Who's being labelled a traitor for questioning election results?

How many COVID-19 vaccines and/or boosters did you have injected into your body? Pretending this isn't a clear questions says everything.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Exploderwizard on August 08, 2023, 02:45:03 PM
The drug company employees were exempt
Members of Congress were exempt
Hordes of illegal aliens were exempt

That is all you needed to know that this shot had nothing to do with your well being.

This was a wide scale administered IQ test. If you took the shot you failed
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Scooter on August 08, 2023, 04:18:43 PM
The drug company employees were exempt
Members of Congress were exempt
Hordes of illegal aliens were exempt

That is all you needed to know that this shot had nothing to do with your well being.

This was a wide scale administered IQ test. If you took the shot you failed

Bingo!  We have a winner.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: GeekyBugle on August 08, 2023, 05:28:10 PM
The drug company employees were exempt
Members of Congress were exempt
Hordes of illegal aliens were exempt

That is all you needed to know that this shot had nothing to do with your well being.

This was a wide scale administered IQ test. If you took the shot you failed

Bingo!  We have a winner.

Except it wasn't about IQ, it was a test about compliance vs resistance. How far can we push you to do things you KNOW are irrational (wearing masks only when you get up from the table at a restaurant?)?. Guess who falls in which side of the question?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Scooter on August 08, 2023, 06:02:25 PM
The drug company employees were exempt
Members of Congress were exempt
Hordes of illegal aliens were exempt

That is all you needed to know that this shot had nothing to do with your well being.

This was a wide scale administered IQ test. If you took the shot you failed

Bingo!  We have a winner.

Except it wasn't about IQ, it was a test about compliance vs resistance. How far can we push you to do things you KNOW are irrational (wearing masks only when you get up from the table at a restaurant?)?. Guess who falls in which side of the question?

But knowing if it is irrational or not is a function of IQ.  IQ is a test of logic in a large measure.  Deductive logic.  Wearing masks only when you get up is a test of that. E.g. if Susan is taller than Tom and Tom is ...  So, "If you don't need to wear a mask when eating with people, do you need to when walking around with people?"

At least I view it that way.  Not that many just didn't like it shoved down their throats so resisted as a matter of course.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: GeekyBugle on August 08, 2023, 10:02:15 PM
The drug company employees were exempt
Members of Congress were exempt
Hordes of illegal aliens were exempt

That is all you needed to know that this shot had nothing to do with your well being.

This was a wide scale administered IQ test. If you took the shot you failed

Bingo!  We have a winner.

Except it wasn't about IQ, it was a test about compliance vs resistance. How far can we push you to do things you KNOW are irrational (wearing masks only when you get up from the table at a restaurant?)?. Guess who falls in which side of the question?

But knowing if it is irrational or not is a function of IQ.  IQ is a test of logic in a large measure.  Deductive logic.  Wearing masks only when you get up is a test of that. E.g. if Susan is taller than Tom and Tom is ...  So, "If you don't need to wear a mask when eating with people, do you need to when walking around with people?"

At least I view it that way.  Not that many just didn't like it shoved down their throats so resisted as a matter of course.

But compliance with authority ISN'T a function of IQ, and it was about that not about how smart you were, people way smarter than me fell for it hook line and sinker, meanwhile I only used it when I had to because else we would have been unnable from buying food.

But I refused and still do to patronize restaurants that demanded such bullshit or to show vaccinated status (and I took the shots because I didn't think they would be so evil as to give my mom severe seccondary effects). Guess what I told the fearmongers from the UNAM last week when they started pushing fear and for people to resume wearing face diapers?

But people way smarter than me started bleating that they never stoped using it and we were criminals and such.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Scooter on August 08, 2023, 10:05:17 PM

But compliance with authority ISN'T a function of IQ, and it was about that not about how smart you were, people way smarter than me fell for it hook line and sinker, meanwhile I only used it when I had to because else we would have been unnable from buying food.

Fell for what exactly?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Eirikrautha on August 08, 2023, 11:42:55 PM
The drug company employees were exempt
Members of Congress were exempt
Hordes of illegal aliens were exempt

That is all you needed to know that this shot had nothing to do with your well being.

This was a wide scale administered IQ test. If you took the shot you failed

Bingo!  We have a winner.

Except it wasn't about IQ, it was a test about compliance vs resistance. How far can we push you to do things you KNOW are irrational (wearing masks only when you get up from the table at a restaurant?)?. Guess who falls in which side of the question?

Exactly.  There's a difference between intelligence and wisdom.  Our "masters" have done everything they can to conflate the two, because intelligence can be claimed to be the purview of the "experts."  Wisdom, on the other hand, can be acquired by anyone; it just takes time and experience.  Something the experts are often lacking in...
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: GeekyBugle on August 08, 2023, 11:52:03 PM

But compliance with authority ISN'T a function of IQ, and it was about that not about how smart you were, people way smarter than me fell for it hook line and sinker, meanwhile I only used it when I had to because else we would have been unnable from buying food.

Fell for what exactly?

What are we talking about? I would have thought that given the conversation and the context of my post it was clear: The face diapers my dude.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: GeekyBugle on August 08, 2023, 11:53:54 PM
The drug company employees were exempt
Members of Congress were exempt
Hordes of illegal aliens were exempt

That is all you needed to know that this shot had nothing to do with your well being.

This was a wide scale administered IQ test. If you took the shot you failed

Bingo!  We have a winner.

Except it wasn't about IQ, it was a test about compliance vs resistance. How far can we push you to do things you KNOW are irrational (wearing masks only when you get up from the table at a restaurant?)?. Guess who falls in which side of the question?

Exactly.  There's a difference between intelligence and wisdom.  Our "masters" have done everything they can to conflate the two, because intelligence can be claimed to be the purview of the "experts."  Wisdom, on the other hand, can be acquired by anyone; it just takes time and experience.  Something the experts are often lacking in...

And being an "expert" in one field means diddly squat when we're talking about a totally different field. Look at Neil Degrasse Tyson making a fool of himself talking about sex and gender, two fields he knows jack shit about, but because he's an "expert" the seals will applaud.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Scooter on August 09, 2023, 12:23:13 AM

But compliance with authority ISN'T a function of IQ, and it was about that not about how smart you were, people way smarter than me fell for it hook line and sinker, meanwhile I only used it when I had to because else we would have been unnable from buying food.

Fell for what exactly?

What are we talking about? I would have thought that given the conversation and the context of my post it was clear: The face diapers my dude.

We are narrowing what was used.  IQ or something else.  So, from YOUR own words.  What was it they "fell" for?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Scooter on August 09, 2023, 12:24:46 AM
The drug company employees were exempt
Members of Congress were exempt
Hordes of illegal aliens were exempt

That is all you needed to know that this shot had nothing to do with your well being.

This was a wide scale administered IQ test. If you took the shot you failed

Bingo!  We have a winner.

Except it wasn't about IQ, it was a test about compliance vs resistance. How far can we push you to do things you KNOW are irrational (wearing masks only when you get up from the table at a restaurant?)?. Guess who falls in which side of the question?

Exactly.  There's a difference between intelligence and wisdom.  Our "masters" have done everything they can to conflate the two, because intelligence can be claimed to be the purview of the "experts."  Wisdom, on the other hand, can be acquired by anyone; it just takes time and experience.  Something the experts are often lacking in...

And being an "expert" in one field means diddly squat when we're talking about a totally different field. Look at Neil Degrasse Tyson making a fool of himself talking about sex and gender, two fields he knows jack shit about, but because he's an "expert" the seals will applaud.

Not what I'm talking about.  IQ isn't a measure of education but of something else.  NO education required.  Just IQ.  Neil makes a fool of himself sometimes even in his own field. 
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Scooter on August 09, 2023, 08:32:59 AM
So, it took Int (IQ) to figure out that the gov't was lying about there being a deadly epidemic.  It wasn't training in medical or related fields.  All it took was to use deductive logic to compare death rates from previous years by month, comparing that to a few months into the "pandemic" to find out the amount of deaths per month (at a state level) was within the norm for past years.  That told one there was no deadly pandemic.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on August 09, 2023, 11:00:48 AM
No ones extensive training in biology to understand gender (there are two sexes period).  A scientist of ANY disipline who talks the way tyson did doesnt make me quesrion his expertise in biology, it makes me question everything about him period.  He is either a smart guy lying or a dummy propped up.  Both are pretty bad.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Scooter on August 09, 2023, 11:05:08 AM
No ones extensive training in biology to understand gender (there are two sexes period).  A scientist of ANY disipline who talks the way tyson did doesnt make me quesrion his expertise in biology, it makes me question everything about him period.  He is either a smart guy lying or a dummy propped up.  Both are pretty bad.

Tyson doesn't even know what a scientific theory IS.  That's how uneducated in science he is.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: GeekyBugle on August 09, 2023, 02:26:08 PM
On an unrelated note:
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Scooter on August 09, 2023, 03:08:35 PM
On an unrelated note:

I can vouch for that based on HR testing my company did for a few years on new applicants...
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on August 09, 2023, 03:44:45 PM
  Well iqs dropping...when you encourage the dumbest motherfuckers to breed the most it tends to have an effect over time.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on August 10, 2023, 07:19:18 AM
How many COVID-19 vaccines and/or boosters did you have injected into your body? Pretending this isn't a clear questions says everything.

You won't get a straight answer out of our slippery Gaz, but it's good to try.

Amusing to watch him squirm.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Brad on August 11, 2023, 11:58:50 AM
You won't get a straight answer out of our slippery Gaz, but it's good to try.

Amusing to watch him squirm.

Whenever the class action lawsuits get going, I'm sure he'll be the first one to rail against the pharmaceutical industry because the lizardman on tv told him to.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on August 12, 2023, 01:33:37 PM
Doctors weren't pushing the jabs for their own financial gain! Screamed the shills for the establishment:

https://twitter.com/RWMaloneMD/status/1690369291684605952/photo/1
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Scooter on August 12, 2023, 02:29:29 PM
Doctors weren't pushing the jabs for their own financial gain! Screamed the shills for the establishment:

https://twitter.com/RWMaloneMD/status/1690369291684605952/photo/1

Lol.  At least my doctor wasn't.  He said avoid the vaccine as if IT was the plague.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Spinachcat on August 12, 2023, 06:41:37 PM
Please remind every liberal and progressive that they need to update their Covid boosters now that flu season coming soon. It's for their health and safety.

Just don't forward them this article. It's dangerous misinformation with racist math.
https://kirschsubstack.com/p/breaking-over-25-of-elderly-residents (https://kirschsubstack.com/p/breaking-over-25-of-elderly-residents)

Very dangerous to read. Even worse to comprehend.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ratman_tf on August 12, 2023, 09:09:14 PM
You won't get a straight answer out of our slippery Gaz, but it's good to try.

Amusing to watch him squirm.

Whenever the class action lawsuits get going, I'm sure he'll be the first one to rail against the pharmaceutical industry because the lizardman on tv told him to.

They covered their asses early on the lawsuit front.

https://aspr.hhs.gov/legal/PREPact/Pages/default.aspx

One of the reasons why I resisted getting the "vaccinations". If the govt and companies don't have the baseline confidence in the "vaccinations", I sure won't.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on August 13, 2023, 06:58:47 AM
 I agree that the removal from liability out of the gate was all the evidence I needed to know that a vax was not for me or my family.  It seemed a willful ignorance for so many people to blindly trust the government and big pharma given the very checkered past both have on rolling things out to the public in the past.  The incessant attempts to conjure "social contracts" and going on and on about long covid were very odd to me.  The United states is not a country because of weak kneed adherence to social contracts for presumed safety.  It is because of balls.   That whole thing showed the balls it took to make this a nation is completely non existent or so far removed from people with influence that it doesnt matter.   It wont end well.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ghostmaker on August 14, 2023, 12:00:12 PM
You won't get a straight answer out of our slippery Gaz, but it's good to try.

Amusing to watch him squirm.

Whenever the class action lawsuits get going, I'm sure he'll be the first one to rail against the pharmaceutical industry because the lizardman on tv told him to.

They covered their asses early on the lawsuit front.

https://aspr.hhs.gov/legal/PREPact/Pages/default.aspx

One of the reasons why I resisted getting the "vaccinations". If the govt and companies don't have the baseline confidence in the "vaccinations", I sure won't.
Of course, that waiver is only worth something as long as it's actually respected. Hell, we passed a law about hitting gun manufacturers with lawsuits and gun-grabbers are still trying to get around it.

Get enough outrage built up, and Congress will alter the deal -- or a judge will -- and they won't care what Big Pharma's lawyers say.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Scooter on August 14, 2023, 12:07:33 PM
Get enough outrage built up, and Congress will alter the deal -- or a judge will -- and they won't care what Big Pharma's lawyers say.

Congress cannot alter the deal. "No Bill of Attainder or ex post facto Law shall be passed."
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ghostmaker on August 14, 2023, 01:23:02 PM
Get enough outrage built up, and Congress will alter the deal -- or a judge will -- and they won't care what Big Pharma's lawyers say.

Congress cannot alter the deal. "No Bill of Attainder or ex post facto Law shall be passed."
In regard to enforcement of said law.

The problem is that this won't be enforcement. This will be civil actions brought by people or their estates. As far as I am aware that doesn't trip the ex post facto limitation.

(I'm not even getting into the increasingly Calvinball nature of our legal frameworks, either.)
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Garry G on August 14, 2023, 01:39:42 PM
I can't parse what the question is to be honest. You just haver shite.

Who's being labelled a traitor for questioning election results?

How many COVID-19 vaccines and/or boosters did you have injected into your body? Pretending this isn't a clear questions says everything.

It's certainly a question that I can work out once we dispense the injecting myself bit. I've been given two injections, I didn't grab the needle and put it in myself, and there have been concerns over the early stuff. I didn't go for the bleach cure cos that seemed a bit dodgy.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Garry G on August 14, 2023, 01:42:47 PM
How many COVID-19 vaccines and/or boosters did you have injected into your body? Pretending this isn't a clear questions says everything.

You won't get a straight answer out of our slippery Gaz, but it's good to try.

Amusing to watch him squirm.

Umm yeah, can you explain the international conspiracy that plotted to get rid of Johnson so they could replace him with Truss who would totally implement the conspiracy then had Sunak in it.

I don't want to watch you squirm I just want to see your whiteboard that explains everything and figure out how much fun you must be at dinner parties.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Exploderwizard on August 14, 2023, 01:51:01 PM
I can't parse what the question is to be honest. You just haver shite.

Who's being labelled a traitor for questioning election results?

How many COVID-19 vaccines and/or boosters did you have injected into your body? Pretending this isn't a clear questions says everything.

It's certainly a question that I can work out once we dispense the injecting myself bit. I've been given two injections, I didn't grab the needle and put it in myself, and there have been concerns over the early stuff. I didn't go for the bleach cure cos that seemed a bit dodgy.

If you have had two injections of the MRNA soup then I truly feel bad for you. Please visit your doctor regularly to do cancer screenings and check for blood clots.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Garry G on August 14, 2023, 01:52:21 PM
You won't get a straight answer out of our slippery Gaz, but it's good to try.

Amusing to watch him squirm.

Whenever the class action lawsuits get going, I'm sure he'll be the first one to rail against the pharmaceutical industry because the lizardman on tv told him to.

This is a lizardman thing? You really should have telt us earlier, Keiro is all about lizardmen.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Scooter on August 14, 2023, 03:23:42 PM
Get enough outrage built up, and Congress will alter the deal -- or a judge will -- and they won't care what Big Pharma's lawyers say.

Congress cannot alter the deal. "No Bill of Attainder or ex post facto Law shall be passed."
In regard to enforcement of said law.


Nope, in the existing law they are exempt.  The prior law being overridden by the latest law. Congress cannot unexempt them for what already happened.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: GeekyBugle on August 14, 2023, 04:55:20 PM
Get enough outrage built up, and Congress will alter the deal -- or a judge will -- and they won't care what Big Pharma's lawyers say.

Congress cannot alter the deal. "No Bill of Attainder or ex post facto Law shall be passed."
In regard to enforcement of said law.


Nope, in the existing law they are exempt.  The prior law being overridden by the latest law. Congress cannot unexempt them for what already happened.

This is a common thing, no new law can be applied retroactively unless it benefits those it's being applied to.

Take for instance a new law that gives the death penalty to rapists, it will only apply to new cases, those already judged are still under the previous law.

Something that's a valid principle in most civilized countries (if not all).
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Scooter on August 14, 2023, 05:08:29 PM

Something that's a valid principle in most civilized countries (if not all).

Nope, The UK, Australia, Denmark, France, Hungary,  Israel, Lithuania, and some others I can't recall right now allow ex post facto laws to full or partial degree. European countries tend towards using lex mitior

Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ratman_tf on August 15, 2023, 04:41:40 AM
Get enough outrage built up, and Congress will alter the deal -- or a judge will -- and they won't care what Big Pharma's lawyers say.

Congress cannot alter the deal. "No Bill of Attainder or ex post facto Law shall be passed."
In regard to enforcement of said law.

The problem is that this won't be enforcement. This will be civil actions brought by people or their estates. As far as I am aware that doesn't trip the ex post facto limitation.

(I'm not even getting into the increasingly Calvinball nature of our legal frameworks, either.)

I can't wait to see what dodgy shenanigan the government gets up to, to discourage pursuing such lawsuits.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Scooter on August 15, 2023, 08:57:51 AM

I can't wait to see what dodgy shenanigan the government gets up to, to discourage pursuing such lawsuits.

It is illegal to pursue such lawsuits.  Nothing more does the gov need to do.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Eirikrautha on August 15, 2023, 04:03:00 PM

I can't wait to see what dodgy shenanigan the government gets up to, to discourage pursuing such lawsuits.

It is illegal to pursue such lawsuits.  Nothing more does the gov need to do.

Tell me you don't know what you're talking about without telling me you don't know what you are talking about.

It is not "illegal" (a violation of criminal statutes) to file a civil case against the vax manufacturers.  Congress passed a law indemnifying the vax manufacturers from civil penalties based on vaccination injuries as specified in the legislation.  This is a defense against a civil suit (and usually results in a quick dismissal by the judge); it does not preclude the filing of the suit.  In fact, whether or not a particular case falls within the purview of the indemnity is itself a matter that can be litigated (intentional or willful negligence is not covered, as a recent federal court declared).  There's no way to know if the circumstances are beyond the scope of the legislation without litigation!  Now, an attorney who continues to file similar cases after those cases have been summarily dismissed can be sanctioned for wasting the court's time.  But there is no criminal statute that prevents filing a civil suit against the vax manufacturers.  You need to cite the federal CRIMINAL code that does so.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Scooter on August 15, 2023, 05:45:08 PM

It is not "illegal" (a violation of criminal statutes)  is no criminal statute that prevents filing a civil suit against the vax manufacturers.  You need to cite the federal CRIMINAL code that does so.

Learn English.  Illegal means AGAINST THE LAW.  Not necessarily a criminal act but ILLEGAL.

Would you like a link to some ESL classes?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Brad on August 15, 2023, 05:53:01 PM
It's certainly a question that I can work out once we dispense the injecting myself bit. I've been given two injections, I didn't grab the needle and put it in myself, and there have been concerns over the early stuff. I didn't go for the bleach cure cos that seemed a bit dodgy.

LOL @ this fucking answer..."It wasn't me, it was someone else doing it. Also, I am possibly concerned, and I didn't use bleach TRUMP!!!!"

What the literal fuck, man? Just admit you're a fucking rube who was duped by the government; no one did anything but yourself.

Further, you can sue anyone anytime you want, for any reason, in the US...so I have no idea what this "it's illegal to sue the drug companies" crap is coming from. Whenever this vaccine stuff finally starts getting litigated, there are gonna be a whole lot of lawyers making the argument that you can't hide behind "we're not liable!" when you essentially threatened people to take the clotshot lest they lose their jobs and be excluded from society. It's gonna be fun.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Scooter on August 15, 2023, 06:00:07 PM

Further, you can sue anyone anytime you want, for any reason, in the US...so I have no idea what this "it's illegal to sue the drug companies" crap is coming from.

 :o  Hard to believe someone who is an adult can be SO uneducated.  But here you are.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Grognard GM on August 15, 2023, 06:24:32 PM
lex mitior

Great name for a Cleric or Paladin.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Brad on August 15, 2023, 06:59:13 PM

Further, you can sue anyone anytime you want, for any reason, in the US...so I have no idea what this "it's illegal to sue the drug companies" crap is coming from.

 :o  Hard to believe someone who is an adult can be SO uneducated.  But here you are.

https://www.uscourts.gov/about-federal-courts/types-cases/civil-cases

Point to where you can’t sue drug companies. You keep taking Ls.

Further, he FDA claimed, for instance, Ivermectin was for horses, and you were a fucking retard if you took it.  Is they’re claiming they ever said that. So…people can just lie to you and you have no legal recourse? I see.

Imagine posting this crap, constantly, and being so smug about it. Pathetic.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Garry G on August 15, 2023, 06:59:26 PM
It's certainly a question that I can work out once we dispense the injecting myself bit. I've been given two injections, I didn't grab the needle and put it in myself, and there have been concerns over the early stuff. I didn't go for the bleach cure cos that seemed a bit dodgy.

LOL @ this fucking answer..."It wasn't me, it was someone else doing it. Also, I am possibly concerned, and I didn't use bleach TRUMP!!!!"

What the literal fuck, man? Just admit you're a fucking rube who was duped by the government; no one did anything but yourself.

Further, you can sue anyone anytime you want, for any reason, in the US...so I have no idea what this "it's illegal to sue the drug companies" crap is coming from. Whenever this vaccine stuff finally starts getting litigated, there are gonna be a whole lot of lawyers making the argument that you can't hide behind "we're not liable!" when you essentially threatened people to take the clotshot lest they lose their jobs and be excluded from society. It's gonna be fun.

I'm a fucking rube who was duped by the government. There you go. You asked a question you knew the answer to and got it.

You're a bit weird, I bet your the fun one at the barbie that likes asking awkward questions and shit, probably about lizards. It's not a big deal, can you explain the global conspiracy now?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Brad on August 15, 2023, 07:02:26 PM

I'm a fucking rube who was duped by the government. There you go. You asked a question you knew the answer to and got it.

You're a bit weird, I bet your the fun one at the barbie that likes asking awkward questions and shit, probably about lizards. It's not a big deal, can you explain the global conspiracy now?

Too bad you’re too stupid to actually understand that you actually were duped, but that’s okay, the gulags don’t discriminate.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Scooter on August 15, 2023, 07:38:15 PM

Point to where you can’t sue drug companies. You keep taking Ls.


1) See Wizard about IQ

2) Look up the Fed law(s) passed by congress exempting the makers of the vaccines for liability because the gov asked them to rush vaccines into production with little to no real trials.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Eirikrautha on August 16, 2023, 07:16:18 AM

It is not "illegal" (a violation of criminal statutes)  is no criminal statute that prevents filing a civil suit against the vax manufacturers.  You need to cite the federal CRIMINAL code that does so.

Learn English.  Illegal means AGAINST THE LAW.  Not necessarily a criminal act but ILLEGAL.

Would you like a link to some ESL classes?

Cite where it is against the law.  Congress passed a law providing a defense against claims of injury.  It did NOT make suing drug companies illegal.  You are fast becoming the poster boy for the Dunning-Kruger Effect on this thread.  the law does not work the way you are asserting.  Prove otherwise.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Scooter on August 16, 2023, 09:29:37 AM

It is not "illegal" (a violation of criminal statutes)  is no criminal statute that prevents filing a civil suit against the vax manufacturers.  You need to cite the federal CRIMINAL code that does so.

Learn English.  Illegal means AGAINST THE LAW.  Not necessarily a criminal act but ILLEGAL.

Would you like a link to some ESL classes?

Cite where it is against the law.  Congress passed a law providing a defense against claims of injury.  It did NOT make suing drug companies illegal.  You are fast becoming the poster boy for the Dunning-Kruger Effect on this thread.  the law does not work the way you are asserting.  Prove otherwise.

Aw poor idiot can't use Google
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on August 16, 2023, 11:18:51 AM
  Thing is laws are just words.  Like a restraining order.  They only matter until they dont, and at some point the people who are always victims of lawfare are going to try a different tact against the purveyors of lawfare.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Scooter on August 16, 2023, 11:20:22 AM
  Thing is laws are just words.  Like a restraining order.  They only matter until they dont, and at some point the people who are always victims of lawfare are going to try a different tact against the purveyors of lawfare.

Right, they work until changed by another law.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: GeekyBugle on August 16, 2023, 01:18:01 PM
  Thing is laws are just words.  Like a restraining order.  They only matter until they dont, and at some point the people who are always victims of lawfare are going to try a different tact against the purveyors of lawfare.

Right, they work until changed by another law.

Or until the culture decides they don't.

In Florida it's illegal for single women to skydive alone on Sundays. Nobody is getting arrested for it.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Scooter on August 16, 2023, 02:22:04 PM

Or until the culture decides they don't.

In Florida it's illegal for single women to skydive alone on Sundays. Nobody is getting arrested for it.

Nope, that law was pre-nullifed by the 14th and thus was never law per the highest law in the land.  But cultures can and do cause laws to be ignored all the time.  Just not the law we are currently talking about.  By the time that happens the statute of limitations will be long over run.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Eirikrautha on August 16, 2023, 04:43:59 PM

It is not "illegal" (a violation of criminal statutes)  is no criminal statute that prevents filing a civil suit against the vax manufacturers.  You need to cite the federal CRIMINAL code that does so.

Learn English.  Illegal means AGAINST THE LAW.  Not necessarily a criminal act but ILLEGAL.

Would you like a link to some ESL classes?

Cite where it is against the law.  Congress passed a law providing a defense against claims of injury.  It did NOT make suing drug companies illegal.  You are fast becoming the poster boy for the Dunning-Kruger Effect on this thread.  the law does not work the way you are asserting.  Prove otherwise.

Aw poor idiot can't use Google

Well, you could learn to, if you wanted to.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on August 16, 2023, 05:21:13 PM
I dont think the statue of limitations matters when people lose their shit and hang people from poles
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Scooter on August 16, 2023, 05:27:03 PM
I dont think the statue of limitations matters when people lose their shit and hang people from poles

Correct.  But that's not going to happen.  The sheeple will continue to follow the commands of their illustrious leaders like The Pres and his cronies that wrote the laws protecting the pharma from lawsuits.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on August 16, 2023, 05:29:23 PM
I think the wheels will come off the bus.  I think what those people do or think might stop mattering altogether for a bit.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Scooter on August 16, 2023, 05:48:19 PM
I think the wheels will come off the bus. 

Not anytime in the next twenty years.  The youngest people that might do something are the older Gen Xers.  The vast majority of younger people are sheep for life and are afraid of rubber balls used at grammar schools
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Grognard GM on August 16, 2023, 08:13:02 PM
I think the wheels will come off the bus. 

Not anytime in the next twenty years.  The youngest people that might do something are the older Gen Xers.  The vast majority of younger people are sheep for life and are afraid of rubber balls used at grammar schools

If I were a kid in 2023, I'd be terrified of balls too.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on August 17, 2023, 05:28:02 AM
I think the wheels will come off the bus. 

Not anytime in the next twenty years.  The youngest people that might do something are the older Gen Xers.  The vast majority of younger people are sheep for life and are afraid of rubber balls used at grammar schools

  Majorities do not control the flow of societies.   Some of those younger people are being raised to take matters into their hands when they need to. 
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ratman_tf on August 17, 2023, 07:17:30 AM


The vaccinated should all be rounded up and isolated from the rest of the population. Preferably forever.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Scooter on August 17, 2023, 08:32:37 AM

  Majorities do not control the flow of societies.   Some of those younger people are being raised to take matters into their hands when they need to.

So?  My prediction stands. I'll put $1,000 that those pussies you are talking about don't rebel in any meaningful way.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Scooter on August 17, 2023, 08:33:59 AM


The vaccinated should all be rounded up and isolated from the rest of the population. Preferably forever.

And sterilized as they have demonstrated such low IQ that we don't want more like them entering society.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on August 17, 2023, 10:57:08 AM


The vaccinated should all be rounded up and isolated from the rest of the population. Preferably forever.

Fuck. I've been worried about this for a while now; I haven't been jabbed, but I have had intimate contact with people who are.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on August 17, 2023, 11:01:20 AM
It's not a big deal, can you explain the global conspiracy now?

Gaz, it's simple enough that even a moron like you can understand it. Our elected representatives are middle managers, and they don't work for us.

The Davos set of billionaires (Soros, Schwab, Gates, et al) are the people who actually control what happens in the world and governments do as they tell them to. Which is why all this Net Zero shite along with 15 minute cities and so on is being rolled out without any consultation with the masses it's being done to.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on August 17, 2023, 11:50:17 AM

  Majorities do not control the flow of societies.   Some of those younger people are being raised to take matters into their hands when they need to.

So?  My prediction stands. I'll put $1,000 that those pussies you are talking about don't rebel in any meaningful way.

   I am sure the British and the northern states made similar wagers in the past.  The cool thing about the future is none of us know.  But we can take a look at similarities to the past events and signs popping up.   
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on August 17, 2023, 11:50:45 AM
Lol i guess me quoting yourself made me quote myself
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Garry G on August 17, 2023, 02:26:54 PM
It's not a big deal, can you explain the global conspiracy now?

Gaz, it's simple enough that even a moron like you can understand it. Our elected representatives are middle managers, and they don't work for us.

The Davos set of billionaires (Soros, Schwab, Gates, et al) are the people who actually control what happens in the world and governments do as they tell them to. Which is why all this Net Zero shite along with 15 minute cities and so on is being rolled out without any consultation with the masses it's being done to.

Okay Mulder so I'm a moron who can't understand your words handed down from your heightened mentalis state. Let's go back to me asking how this actually works.

Umm yeah, can you explain the international conspiracy that plotted to get rid of Johnson so they could replace him with Truss who would totally implement the conspiracy then had Sunak in it.

I don't want to watch you squirm I just want to see your whiteboard that explains everything and figure out how much fun you must be at dinner parties.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on August 17, 2023, 03:05:05 PM
Okay Mulder so I'm a moron who can't understand your words handed down from your heightened mentalis state. Let's go back to me asking how this actually works.

Umm yeah, can you explain the international conspiracy that plotted to get rid of Johnson so they could replace him with Truss who would totally implement the conspiracy then had Sunak in it.

I don't want to watch you squirm I just want to see your whiteboard that explains everything and figure out how much fun you must be at dinner parties.

Again nothing complex here. They decided Johnson was too compromised to push through the changes they required (he failed to follow the rest of Europe with vaccine passports), so forced him out. I'm sure they have plenty of kompromat on him. When the wrong candidate won the Tory leadership election, they ousted her and put their placeman in without any recourse to anyone else.

No whiteboards or squirming required, this is all pretty simple stuff. Unless you get all your news from the BBC and the Guardian, in which case you've been fed some bullshit or other.

Oh, and I'm divorced, I don't get invited to middle class, suburban functions like dinner parties.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Scooter on August 17, 2023, 04:06:03 PM
Lol i guess me quoting yourself made me quote myself

Oops.  Limitations of nonverbal
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Garry G on August 18, 2023, 02:08:16 PM
Okay Mulder so I'm a moron who can't understand your words handed down from your heightened mentalis state. Let's go back to me asking how this actually works.

Umm yeah, can you explain the international conspiracy that plotted to get rid of Johnson so they could replace him with Truss who would totally implement the conspiracy then had Sunak in it.

I don't want to watch you squirm I just want to see your whiteboard that explains everything and figure out how much fun you must be at dinner parties.



Again nothing complex here. They decided Johnson was too compromised to push through the changes they required (he failed to follow the rest of Europe with vaccine passports), so forced him out. I'm sure they have plenty of kompromat on him. When the wrong candidate won the Tory leadership election, they ousted her and put their placeman in without any recourse to anyone else.

No whiteboards or squirming required, this is all pretty simple stuff. Unless you get all your news from the BBC and the Guardian, in which case you've been fed some bullshit or other.

Oh, and I'm divorced, I don't get invited to middle class, suburban functions like dinner parties.

That seems overly complex compared to actual reality and even more daft which is impressive. It's a weird attempt to try to fit circumstances into an already decided framework.

Whatever I think about the discussion I'm really sorry to hear about your divorce.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on August 18, 2023, 02:21:36 PM
That seems overly complex compared to actual reality and even more daft which is impressive. It's a weird attempt to try to fit circumstances into an already decided framework.

Whatever I think about the discussion I'm really sorry to hear about your divorce.

Not complicated at all, just some simple application of leverage to meet an agenda.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Garry G on August 18, 2023, 03:54:50 PM
That seems overly complex compared to actual reality and even more daft which is impressive. It's a weird attempt to try to fit circumstances into an already decided framework.

Whatever I think about the discussion I'm really sorry to hear about your divorce.

Not complicated at all, just some simple application of leverage to meet an agenda.

Yet it's also a conspiracy fooling the world that only people like you who have denounced the MSM and embraced the outsider youtubers?

It just doesn't come across as a workable theory In the same way I'm not sure screeching about people with an alternative idea being sheeple makes you sound convincing.

So what's the actual plan here? What are you doing to stop this both obvious and weirdly nonsensical global conspiracy? You've failed to describe it in detail but there must be a way you're countering it.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on August 18, 2023, 04:12:18 PM
Yet it's also a conspiracy fooling the world that only people like you who have denounced the MSM and embraced the outsider youtubers?

It just doesn't come across as a workable theory In the same way I'm not sure screeching about people with an alternative idea being sheeple makes you sound convincing.

So what's the actual plan here? What are you doing to stop this both obvious and weirdly nonsensical global conspiracy? You've failed to describe it in detail but there must be a way you're countering it.

Not a conspiracy, not even remotely secret. The WEF are quite public about what they're doing and their goals. Have you missed all of their declarations that "you will own nothing, and you'll be happy"?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Scooter on August 18, 2023, 04:16:28 PM
Not a conspiracy, not even remotely secret. The WEF are quite public about what they're doing and their goals. Have you missed all of their declarations that "you will own nothing, and you'll be happy"?

It's hard to hear those pronouncements with head stuck in sand.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Garry G on August 18, 2023, 04:54:28 PM
Yet it's also a conspiracy fooling the world that only people like you who have denounced the MSM and embraced the outsider youtubers?

It just doesn't come across as a workable theory In the same way I'm not sure screeching about people with an alternative idea being sheeple makes you sound convincing.

So what's the actual plan here? What are you doing to stop this both obvious and weirdly nonsensical global conspiracy? You've failed to describe it in detail but there must be a way you're countering it.

Not a conspiracy, not even remotely secret. The WEF are quite public about what they're doing and their goals. Have you missed all of their declarations that "you will own nothing, and you'll be happy"?

I honestly don't. I've seen a lot of stuff taken out of context and I'm concerned about a lot of trends in the world, probably not the same one you see.

Given that we disagree on what we see in the world what are you doing to make the change. Being dismissive and saying people who don't see the obvious clearly doesn't work. The dystopia you're positing will hit you just as hard as anybody else. You clearly think I'm an idiot so treat me like one, explain it all in small easy steps.

I'm also still interested to know what you're doing in your community to further your agenda.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Grognard GM on August 18, 2023, 06:17:25 PM
Yet it's also a conspiracy fooling the world that only people like you who have denounced the MSM and embraced the outsider youtubers?

It just doesn't come across as a workable theory In the same way I'm not sure screeching about people with an alternative idea being sheeple makes you sound convincing.

So what's the actual plan here? What are you doing to stop this both obvious and weirdly nonsensical global conspiracy? You've failed to describe it in detail but there must be a way you're countering it.

Not a conspiracy, not even remotely secret. The WEF are quite public about what they're doing and their goals. Have you missed all of their declarations that "you will own nothing, and you'll be happy"?

I honestly don't. I've seen a lot of stuff taken out of context and I'm concerned about a lot of trends in the world, probably not the same one you see.

Given that we disagree on what we see in the world what are you doing to make the change. Being dismissive and saying people who don't see the obvious clearly doesn't work. The dystopia you're positing will hit you just as hard as anybody else. You clearly think I'm an idiot so treat me like one, explain it all in small easy steps.

I'm also still interested to know what you're doing in your community to further your agenda.

(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-W356KNnKKss/UjdWPqjrK1I/AAAAAAAAA1I/I4SFe1XZe1c/s1600/gasss.gif)
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: GeekyBugle on August 18, 2023, 06:46:26 PM
Not a conspiracy, not even remotely secret. The WEF are quite public about what they're doing and their goals. Have you missed all of their declarations that "you will own nothing, and you'll be happy"?

It's hard to hear those pronouncements with head stuck in sand.

You misspelled "head stuck in ass".
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on August 18, 2023, 08:01:39 PM
I honestly don't. I've seen a lot of stuff taken out of context and I'm concerned about a lot of trends in the world, probably not the same one you see.

Given that we disagree on what we see in the world what are you doing to make the change. Being dismissive and saying people who don't see the obvious clearly doesn't work. The dystopia you're positing will hit you just as hard as anybody else. You clearly think I'm an idiot so treat me like one, explain it all in small easy steps.

I'm also still interested to know what you're doing in your community to further your agenda.

Oh please. Actual pronouncements and publications by the WEF (easily found) are hardly "out of context". The Great Reset is a fucking published book.

Schwab boasting in 2017 that his puppets are in governments:


And they're hardly some obscure organisation, they're partnered with the UN, WHO, World Bank and all the other international organisations. My own employer cites their crap in e-learning I'm force-fed.

Partnered with the royal family, even:


I'm guessing you've never seen this, either:


One aspect of their dystopia isn't going to hit me as hard as you, because I haven't been jabbed. Good luck there, no one has any idea what the long term effects are of whatever you've been injected with.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ratman_tf on August 19, 2023, 11:14:43 AM
One aspect of their dystopia isn't going to hit me as hard as you, because I haven't been jabbed. Good luck there, no one has any idea what the long term effects are of whatever you've been injected with.

Production of a Transgenic Mosquito, as a Flying Syringe, to Deliver Protective Vaccine via Saliva (https://gcgh.grandchallenges.org/grant/production-transgenic-mosquito-flying-syringe-deliver-protective-vaccine-saliva)

Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Klava on August 19, 2023, 11:46:08 AM
I've seen a lot of stuff taken out of context and I'm concerned about a lot of trends in the world, probably not the same one you see.

come on, dude, why are you still posting in this thread? it's long devolved into pointless name calling and virtue signaling by the resident anti-vaxxers. they are incapable of honest debate on this issue. they will tell you that their personal experiences are enough to not just put statistical studies and peer reviewed scientific research based on hundreds of thousands of cases under question - but to completely refute all of that. they will post unchecked raw data and claim complete certainty of that data supporting their notions. they will say that it's up to a sceptic to check that raw data - while they themselves are totally free from that burden simply because they happen to agree with the conclusions.

they are, in other words, nuts.
let it go. nothing to see here, move along.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Scooter on August 19, 2023, 11:51:57 AM

Oh please. Actual pronouncements and publications by the WEF (easily found) are hardly "out of context". The Great Reset is a fucking published book.

Schwab boasting in 2017 that his puppets are in governments: ...

Trying to turn the people who support this criminality by the gov't is ultimately counter productive.  They need to naturally fall out of gene pool. 
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Grognard GM on August 19, 2023, 12:34:55 PM
I've seen a lot of stuff taken out of context and I'm concerned about a lot of trends in the world, probably not the same one you see.

come on, dude, why are you still posting in this thread? it's long devolved into pointless name calling and virtue signaling by the resident anti-vaxxers. they are incapable of honest debate on this issue. they will tell you that their personal experiences are enough to not just put statistical studies and peer reviewed scientific research based on hundreds of thousands of cases under question - but to completely refute all of that. they will post unchecked raw data and claim complete certainty of that data supporting their notions. they will say that it's up to a sceptic to check that raw data - while they themselves are totally free from that burden simply because they happen to agree with the conclusions.

they are, in other words, nuts.
let it go. nothing to see here, move along.

The same reason you are, he's a Tankie.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: KindaMeh on August 19, 2023, 01:59:21 PM
Klava, Garry G., I for one welcome debate, especially when it is backed by statistics. Generally speaking, most folks on this site tend to be pretty sharp and capable people, even if oftentimes folks may not agree. (Which I myself would argue is a feature, not a bug. I don’t need yet another complete echo chamber.)

And many (I would argue most) skeptics of the government response to Covid (basically the topic of this thread), myself included, are willing to acknowledge some basic facts. Covid was more deadly than the flu. In the early days something like 5% of those who had it were hospitalized, and maybe 1% or so of those who contracted it died, like Trump had predicted. The vaccines at bare minimum had alleviative attributes, which sizably cut hospitalizations and deaths BY COVID for those who had them. Longhauler symptoms are also real, if overexaggerated in how people think of incidence rates.

That being said, I stand by what I’ve said previously in response to this thread, in that the government response and policies were BS.

Respiratory illnesses showing up in hospitals dropped like 50% during enforced masking, not just COVID, and they had a similar kill count to COVID prior to its emergence. Why then is “the science” definitively behind masking for one and not the other, given that we were not forced to wear masks prior to that? Answer: Science doesn’t mandate action or provide actionable values, and it was basically a smokescreen given that, again, in this context the tradeoff between freedom and security for masking on a similar death count wasn’t judged to be “scientifically” actionable. Same logic applies to shutdowns and trashing the economy of places like Nevada (gambling, buffets and tourism are most of what’s there, for instance) through stringent requirements shutting down or making nonviable a whole host of businesses and the like. I’m not even gonna touch on religious services, protests, related constitutional questions and the whole double standard there. “Science” cannot therefore be used as a shield to defend upending and destroying American society and mental health through an act of political will.

Then there’s the political discrimination piece to masking and vaccines. When one party and it’s affiliates are not taking the vaccine, targeting those who don’t have the vaccine as ineligible for public service and government positions is blatant political discrimination and effectively at times political clientelism. And don’t give me the “for those they would infect” bullshit. If the vaccine really works, even from an alleviative standpoint, which it does, then the only people “at risk” are those unvaccinated who have decided to take that risk after weighing their health, knowledge, and health of their families in good faith and clean conscience.

On which note, the vaccines do have, admittedly somewhat rare, confirmed side effects. And COVID became less deadly during Omicron. And to begin with it didn’t impact all demographics equally, and those young and healthy were pretty much guaranteed to be fine. And the development was admittedly somewhat rushed, and corporations care about cash to begin with while having real lobbyists with impact on the political process, and the FDA is kinda meh at its job. AND having COVID grants natural vaccination/immunity or whatever. So if people don’t wanna get the shot? That’s their decision. See the above paragraph for why it doesn’t impact anybody who hasn’t actively chosen to take that risk. More to the point, nobody can say the long term effects of MOST THINGS with complete accuracy without a long period of time having passed. We as humans can run tests and formulate informed opinions, but even with that there are limits. I’m not gonna be upset with people for weighing risks and evidence differently from me, much less would I consider pursuing legal constraints and political discrimination against them, which is effectively what wound up happening in many places. This thread is quite arguably and perhaps not wrongly about government mishandling and societal overreach within this context.

I’ve also heard a lot of things on this thread from people like Kiero, whom you seem to be dismissing out of hand, which have corrected some of my misconceptions or led me down interesting research paths. I don’t always agree with them, much less on absolutely everything, but this thread gave me exposure to many differing perspectives during a time when IRL I wasn’t hearing more than one or two. So yeah.

Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Garry G on August 19, 2023, 02:02:44 PM
I've seen a lot of stuff taken out of context and I'm concerned about a lot of trends in the world, probably not the same one you see.

come on, dude, why are you still posting in this thread? it's long devolved into pointless name calling and virtue signaling by the resident anti-vaxxers. they are incapable of honest debate on this issue. they will tell you that their personal experiences are enough to not just put statistical studies and peer reviewed scientific research based on hundreds of thousands of cases under question - but to completely refute all of that. they will post unchecked raw data and claim complete certainty of that data supporting their notions. they will say that it's up to a sceptic to check that raw data - while they themselves are totally free from that burden simply because they happen to agree with the conclusions.

they are, in other words, nuts.
let it go. nothing to see here, move along.

The same reason you are, he's a Tankie.

This is the problem. If you're an extremist you can only see extremes which reduces dialogue. I'm not a tankie but I am a social democrat who believes in mixed economies. I see you accused me of gaslighting upthread for asking for clear explanations of what seems to be extreme views that  need to be fully elaborated on because they are so outside what can be observed that they appear unbelievable. I'm not willing to label people as enemies and leave it at that, Kiero in particular is a person I have a lot of respect for and I find his dip into extremism worrying.

Your labelling me as a tankie says more about you than me.

Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ratman_tf on August 19, 2023, 02:07:27 PM
I've seen a lot of stuff taken out of context and I'm concerned about a lot of trends in the world, probably not the same one you see.

come on, dude, why are you still posting in this thread? it's long devolved into pointless name calling and virtue signaling by the resident anti-vaxxers. they are incapable of honest debate on this issue. they will tell you that their personal experiences are enough to not just put statistical studies and peer reviewed scientific research based on hundreds of thousands of cases under question - but to completely refute all of that. they will post unchecked raw data and claim complete certainty of that data supporting their notions. they will say that it's up to a sceptic to check that raw data - while they themselves are totally free from that burden simply because they happen to agree with the conclusions.

they are, in other words, nuts.
let it go. nothing to see here, move along.

The same reason you are, he's a Tankie.

This is the problem. If you're an extremist you can only see extremes which reduces dialogue. I'm not a tankie but I am a social democrat who believes in mixed economies. I see you accused me of gaslighting upthread for asking for clear explanations of what seems to be extreme views that  need to be fully elaborated on because they are so outside what can be observed that they appear unbelievable. I'm not willing to label people as enemies and leave it at that, Kiero in particular is a person I have a lot of respect for and I find his dip into extremism worrying.

This shit is not "outside of what can be observed". It's for fucking sale on Amazon books.

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/31LNDK78L9L._SX322_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg)
https://www.amazon.com/COVID-19-Great-Reset-Klaus-Schwab/dp/2940631123/ref=sr_1_3?keywords=the+great+reset&qid=1692468326&sr=8-3

Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Garry G on August 19, 2023, 02:23:19 PM
I honestly don't. I've seen a lot of stuff taken out of context and I'm concerned about a lot of trends in the world, probably not the same one you see.

Given that we disagree on what we see in the world what are you doing to make the change. Being dismissive and saying people who don't see the obvious clearly doesn't work. The dystopia you're positing will hit you just as hard as anybody else. You clearly think I'm an idiot so treat me like one, explain it all in small easy steps.

I'm also still interested to know what you're doing in your community to further your agenda.

Oh please. Actual pronouncements and publications by the WEF (easily found) are hardly "out of context". The Great Reset is a fucking published book.

Schwab boasting in 2017 that his puppets are in governments:


And they're hardly some obscure organisation, they're partnered with the UN, WHO, World Bank and all the other international organisations. My own employer cites their crap in e-learning I'm force-fed.

Partnered with the royal family, even:


I'm guessing you've never seen this, either:


One aspect of their dystopia isn't going to hit me as hard as you, because I haven't been jabbed. Good luck there, no one has any idea what the long term effects are of whatever you've been injected with.
 

None of those videos actually say anything. The first is the most interesting, and possibly the most damning, but really is about politicians talking in a global world and if we're talking about the power of the illuminati lets think about  see how the Putin mention looks now.

I have no interest in the Royal Family and their opinions shouldn't matter.

Weirdly enough I think Stalmer is right. If the party in power has enough seats they can pretty much do what they like so the next step is international diplomacy.

This isn't interesting, let alone convincing. You represent an incredible extreme in British politics so the onus is on you to convince others. Is this all you've got?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Garry G on August 19, 2023, 02:26:00 PM
I've seen a lot of stuff taken out of context and I'm concerned about a lot of trends in the world, probably not the same one you see.

come on, dude, why are you still posting in this thread? it's long devolved into pointless name calling and virtue signaling by the resident anti-vaxxers. they are incapable of honest debate on this issue. they will tell you that their personal experiences are enough to not just put statistical studies and peer reviewed scientific research based on hundreds of thousands of cases under question - but to completely refute all of that. they will post unchecked raw data and claim complete certainty of that data supporting their notions. they will say that it's up to a sceptic to check that raw data - while they themselves are totally free from that burden simply because they happen to agree with the conclusions.

they are, in other words, nuts.
let it go. nothing to see here, move along.

The same reason you are, he's a Tankie.

This is the problem. If you're an extremist you can only see extremes which reduces dialogue. I'm not a tankie but I am a social democrat who believes in mixed economies. I see you accused me of gaslighting upthread for asking for clear explanations of what seems to be extreme views that  need to be fully elaborated on because they are so outside what can be observed that they appear unbelievable. I'm not willing to label people as enemies and leave it at that, Kiero in particular is a person I have a lot of respect for and I find his dip into extremism worrying.

This shit is not "outside of what can be observed". It's for fucking sale on Amazon books.

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/31LNDK78L9L._SX322_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg)
https://www.amazon.com/COVID-19-Great-Reset-Klaus-Schwab/dp/2940631123/ref=sr_1_3?keywords=the+great+reset&qid=1692468326&sr=8-3

A book about looking at how our economy has problems isn't the same as a global movement picking and changing the leaders of countries.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ratman_tf on August 19, 2023, 04:08:04 PM
I've seen a lot of stuff taken out of context and I'm concerned about a lot of trends in the world, probably not the same one you see.

come on, dude, why are you still posting in this thread? it's long devolved into pointless name calling and virtue signaling by the resident anti-vaxxers. they are incapable of honest debate on this issue. they will tell you that their personal experiences are enough to not just put statistical studies and peer reviewed scientific research based on hundreds of thousands of cases under question - but to completely refute all of that. they will post unchecked raw data and claim complete certainty of that data supporting their notions. they will say that it's up to a sceptic to check that raw data - while they themselves are totally free from that burden simply because they happen to agree with the conclusions.

they are, in other words, nuts.
let it go. nothing to see here, move along.

The same reason you are, he's a Tankie.

This is the problem. If you're an extremist you can only see extremes which reduces dialogue. I'm not a tankie but I am a social democrat who believes in mixed economies. I see you accused me of gaslighting upthread for asking for clear explanations of what seems to be extreme views that  need to be fully elaborated on because they are so outside what can be observed that they appear unbelievable. I'm not willing to label people as enemies and leave it at that, Kiero in particular is a person I have a lot of respect for and I find his dip into extremism worrying.

This shit is not "outside of what can be observed". It's for fucking sale on Amazon books.

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/31LNDK78L9L._SX322_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg)
https://www.amazon.com/COVID-19-Great-Reset-Klaus-Schwab/dp/2940631123/ref=sr_1_3?keywords=the+great+reset&qid=1692468326&sr=8-3

A book about looking at how our economy has problems isn't the same as a global movement picking and changing the leaders of countries.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Economic_Forum

I don't know about "picking and changing the leaders of countries", but this is a massive, powerful organiization with great political influence, and very suspicious goals and methods.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on August 20, 2023, 01:17:46 PM
come on, dude, why are you still posting in this thread? it's long devolved into pointless name calling and virtue signaling by the resident anti-vaxxers. they are incapable of honest debate on this issue. they will tell you that their personal experiences are enough to not just put statistical studies and peer reviewed scientific research based on hundreds of thousands of cases under question - but to completely refute all of that. they will post unchecked raw data and claim complete certainty of that data supporting their notions. they will say that it's up to a sceptic to check that raw data - while they themselves are totally free from that burden simply because they happen to agree with the conclusions.

they are, in other words, nuts.
let it go. nothing to see here, move along.

Moron makes pronouncement about how no one is capable of debate, whilst avoiding any debate. Gotcha.

Never mind that you appear to either discount or be utterly ignorant of how corrupt "science" is and how most statistical modelling is utter garbage. See "climate change" which is also arrant horseshit. "Peer reviewed" means fuck all, hasn't meant anything for decades.

I'm not nuts for remaining unchanged by the shitstorm of absolute bollocks that came out in 2020 over the pandemic that never was. Keep telling yourself whatever helps you sleep at night, though.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Garry G on August 20, 2023, 01:46:16 PM
I've seen a lot of stuff taken out of context and I'm concerned about a lot of trends in the world, probably not the same one you see.

come on, dude, why are you still posting in this thread? it's long devolved into pointless name calling and virtue signaling by the resident anti-vaxxers. they are incapable of honest debate on this issue. they will tell you that their personal experiences are enough to not just put statistical studies and peer reviewed scientific research based on hundreds of thousands of cases under question - but to completely refute all of that. they will post unchecked raw data and claim complete certainty of that data supporting their notions. they will say that it's up to a sceptic to check that raw data - while they themselves are totally free from that burden simply because they happen to agree with the conclusions.

they are, in other words, nuts.
let it go. nothing to see here, move along.

Weirdly enough it's because I think more of people, Kiero in particular is a smart guy who has always had views I disagree with but never this extreme. I want him to explain his position because I want to see the connective tissue that leads to such an extreme position. I'd hope that this may lead him to see that his views are untenable but that's unlikely.

Kiero thinks that I'm a disingenuous arsehole who likes to wind him up but also a sheeple who doesn't question things. I find that a little hurtful but I'm willing to give the sheeple thing a go if he just explains these things that are so fucking obvious.

That's my frustration. It's not logical or obvious and saying it is doesn't make it so. Kiero is better than that I ask him to explain why and how  Boris Johnson lost the job with PM and he talks about sinister figures getting rid of him when it's clear that he just lost support from colleagues as he lost public support due to repeated lying, a fucked up ruling party isn't a worldwide conspiracy it's just a fucked up ruling party. Covid was just a mess and the first vaccine did actually kill people but once again fucked up governments fucked up, the UK government pre-emptively fucked up by cutting funding to pandemic measures years before. None of this needs a complicated conspiracy theory.

And yeah, they're nuts. I've told them they're nuts but I believe that people can draw back from nuts.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ratman_tf on August 20, 2023, 04:51:38 PM
Covid was just a mess and the first vaccine did actually kill people but once again fucked up governments fucked up, the UK government pre-emptively fucked up by cutting funding to pandemic measures years before. None of this needs a complicated conspiracy theory.

Coivd was not "just a mess". It was a mess, and a blatant power grab by governments. Censoring of dissenting opinions. Massive media narratives. Bad science bordering on superstitious, magical thinking. Spreading disinformation via institutions that were supposed to be at least somewhat trustworthy and non-partisan. Lockdowns extending far beyond their useful time frames, and far outside their scope of usefulness. I could go on an on, and link up all the instances I'm referring to. But theres a metric fuckton already in this thread for your perusal.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Scooter on August 20, 2023, 04:54:02 PM
Lockdowns extending far beyond their useful time frames, and far outside their scope of usefulness.

Get real.  AL the lock downs were completely illegal and a HUGE criminal action.  All involved should be hanged.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: KindaMeh on August 20, 2023, 05:25:36 PM
Lockdowns extending far beyond their useful time frames, and far outside their scope of usefulness.

Get real.  AL the lock downs were completely illegal and a HUGE criminal action.  All involved should be hanged.

Actually, I think Ratman’s right. They screwed up, and chose to keep screwing up in part because it served their interests and granted them power, but they arguably had the legal right to do most of it, especially early on when not much was known and it was Trump doing it. Likewise media, while morally corrupt in many cases, can and does say what it likes thanks to free speech, whether it’s promoting the ideology of FOX or CNN. (Both of which got a lot of things wrong about Covid.) A caveat being that this incident involved big tech censorship, as noted by Ratman and encouraged by partisanship. As well as religious, assembly, and political discrimination issues that were seldom properly addressed. But more to the point hanging doesn’t solve jack shit, just devolves things into murdering folks we disagree with.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: KindaMeh on August 20, 2023, 05:29:43 PM
Also, I’m not really sure how to explain this but something kinda just struck my flow of consciousness so I’m gonna go with it. If this had been a real plague like most Dems were spooked into believing, this was probably roughly the response that would make sense, minus the disruption of religion and protest, and minus political discrimination. Centuries of precedent and constitutional understanding does grant the federal government control over interstate commerce and state governments the ability to for example regulate or even disrupt forms of intrastate commerce for purposes of public health among other things. So they can indeed, and  perhaps even arguably should, take similar kinds of action during an actual plague or the like. I would argue they overstepped, but moreso morally and with respect to threat assessment. I.E. not a country-threatening plague. Also, there’s like a 90% chance these people were drinking their own Koolaid, so many were probably ignorant or impaired in judgement to some degree or another. Is it really coincidence that those listening to blue media in positions of power acted as the information provided by that media implied they should? I think a lot of politicians may have actually bought the shit they were selling, which while disturbing and hard to believe might explain a lot.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Scooter on August 20, 2023, 05:53:23 PM

but they arguably had the legal right to do most of it,

WRONG!  Cite the law(s) or admit that you are just pulling lies out of your ass.  (hint) there are NO suck laws
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: KindaMeh on August 20, 2023, 05:59:57 PM

but they arguably had the legal right to do most of it,

WRONG!  Cite the law(s) or admit that you are just pulling lies out of your ass.  (hint) there are NO suck laws

Being that the courts, which especially the Supreme Court currently trend red, let stand at state and local and national level many such actions over centuries at even many (but not all) of those enacted during Covid specifically, try again chief. Burden’s on you to prove the legal system and legal experts were incorrect in their interpretation of law. That said, I would love it were they wrong on many of these instances, so good luck in principle.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Scooter on August 20, 2023, 06:01:42 PM

but they arguably had the legal right to do most of it,

WRONG!  Cite the law(s) or admit that you are just pulling lies out of your ass.  (hint) there are NO suck laws

Being that the courts,

Irrelevant blathering.  Cite the law or admit stoopidity
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Scooter on August 20, 2023, 06:05:48 PM


Being that the courts,

Irrelevant blathering.  Cite the law or admit stoopidity

Thanks for admitting it.  That is the first step ya know
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: KindaMeh on August 20, 2023, 06:17:34 PM
You really should give folks time to reply, and I kinda feel like you ignored what I have posted. As you have yet to genuinely reply to my points, I can only let them stand on their own.

Precedent and legal rulings, delivered by the right and not just the left, regulation of insterstate commerce at the federal level constitutionally, and broad state powers that exceed them within the states in question both in commerce and elsewhere. See also emergency public health laws and powers granted by said states to relevant agencies, and more. If you have a counterargument, I would genuinely be happy to hear it, as noted earlier.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Scooter on August 20, 2023, 06:19:11 PM
You really should give folks time to reply,

But still no law cited.  You are an idiot
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on August 20, 2023, 06:23:36 PM
Actually, I think Ratman’s right. They screwed up, and chose to keep screwing up in part because it served their interests and granted them power, but they arguably had the legal right to do most of it, especially early on when not much was known and it was Trump doing it. Likewise media, while morally corrupt in many cases, can and does say what it likes thanks to free speech, whether it’s promoting the ideology of FOX or CNN. (Both of which got a lot of things wrong about Covid.) A caveat being that this incident involved big tech censorship, as noted by Ratman and encouraged by partisanship. As well as religious, assembly, and political discrimination issues that were seldom properly addressed. But more to the point hanging doesn’t solve jack shit, just devolves things into murdering folks we disagree with.

Nope, not a screw up, a deliberate overreach that they couldn't believe they got away with. That people were so pathetic and spineless to just do as they were told.

Helps that they bought the media at the start in this country (and probably elsewhere, too). Look at how all the news channels in the US are "sponsored by Pfizer". You think they'd speak out against their paymasters?

They were aping the response of the Chinese authorities, thinking they'd get pushback and were surprised when there was virtually none. Which has set the pattern for any future "pandemics" under the WHO Treaty which hasn't even been debated as everyone signed up to it.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: KindaMeh on August 20, 2023, 06:29:59 PM
You really should give folks time to reply,

But still no law cited.  You are an idiot

I referenced a lot actually, including the interstate commerce clause of the constitution and even greater powers being granted to the states through the constitution. Also practically every state and locality having long-standing specific emergency health laws and powers. And I referenced court precedent even during the pandemic which you could not possibly be blind to. I genuinely don’t get why you aren’t taking the opportunity to make your own points clear or responding to what I have said. Nor the hostility all told. Would legit like to hear a case made contrary.

If I myself were doing it I’d likely make reference to freedom of religion and assembly for protests and churches and so forth, and political discrimination for specific instances. But that’s just me.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ratman_tf on August 20, 2023, 07:11:44 PM
Lockdowns extending far beyond their useful time frames, and far outside their scope of usefulness.

Get real.  AL the lock downs were completely illegal and a HUGE criminal action.  All involved should be hanged.

At the time, I considered them warranted. A virus with unknown lethality and transmissibility. Two weeks was a small ask.
In hindsight, it was the proverbial inch, and if I had my way, the CDC, FDA and the entire US government would be ejected into the sun over Covid.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on August 20, 2023, 08:07:15 PM
At the time, I considered them warranted. A virus with unknown lethality and transmissibility. Two weeks was a small ask.
In hindsight, it was the proverbial inch, and if I had my way, the CDC, FDA and the entire US government would be ejected into the sun over Covid.

At the time we knew it was bollocks, see the outbreak on the Diamond Princess.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ratman_tf on August 20, 2023, 08:34:30 PM
At the time, I considered them warranted. A virus with unknown lethality and transmissibility. Two weeks was a small ask.
In hindsight, it was the proverbial inch, and if I had my way, the CDC, FDA and the entire US government would be ejected into the sun over Covid.

At the time we knew it was bollocks, see the outbreak on the Diamond Princess.

Can you elaborate? I'm not sure what the Diamond Princess outbreak is supposed to illustrate.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on August 21, 2023, 05:23:38 AM
Can you elaborate? I'm not sure what the Diamond Princess outbreak is supposed to illustrate.

Cruise liner (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_pandemic_on_Diamond_Princess) filled with mostly old, infirm people, all at close quarters and sharing the same air. Long before there were jabs (not that they work anyway) and hardly anyone died. None of the crew died (median age 36).

It told us covid was nothing more than a bad seasonal bug, and not even that bad compared to other outbreaks. Also that younger and healthier people were not even remotely at risk.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on August 21, 2023, 05:41:00 AM
None of those videos actually say anything. The first is the most interesting, and possibly the most damning, but really is about politicians talking in a global world and if we're talking about the power of the illuminati lets think about  see how the Putin mention looks now.

I have no interest in the Royal Family and their opinions shouldn't matter.

Weirdly enough I think Stalmer is right. If the party in power has enough seats they can pretty much do what they like so the next step is international diplomacy.

This isn't interesting, let alone convincing. You represent an incredible extreme in British politics so the onus is on you to convince others. Is this all you've got?

You're only looking at the content itself, which is half of the problem. I was showing them as examples of WEF ideology being out in the public domain, no "secret conspiracy" at all. And examples of how influential they are - I couldn't care less about the royal family, but you can't get more Establishment than them.

They're not about "politicians talking in a global world" they're about the elites cutting everyone else out of decisionmaking altogether while they settle everything to their liking. Which we saw clear as day during the fake pandemic, but apparently you saw nothing at all.

How can you not be horrified by Captain Hindsight saying he prefers unelected billionaires to doing his job as a representative of our democracy? Not that we really have it here, probably haven't done since kiddie fiddler Wilson took his bung to rig the 1975 referendum on EEC membership.

Not that politicians matter nowadays anyway, power is with the permanent Establishment - the civil service, judiciary, law enforcement, media. And they're all on board with the WEF's agenda. Politicians are managers who do as they're told in the hopes of preferment when they leave office. No one who isn't either corrupt or compromised is allowed anywhere near power. All your wittering about Bojo did X is as meaningless as all of the rest of the puppets in Westminster.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ratman_tf on August 21, 2023, 07:51:14 AM
Can you elaborate? I'm not sure what the Diamond Princess outbreak is supposed to illustrate.

Cruise liner (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_pandemic_on_Diamond_Princess) filled with mostly old, infirm people, all at close quarters and sharing the same air. Long before there were jabs (not that they work anyway) and hardly anyone died. None of the crew died (median age 36).

It told us covid was nothing more than a bad seasonal bug, and not even that bad compared to other outbreaks. Also that younger and healthier people were not even remotely at risk.

I see. I think I disagree, in that one instance does not provide enough data to make a definitive assesment. In hindsight, it matches what we know now.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on August 21, 2023, 08:06:25 AM
I see. I think I disagree, in that one instance does not provide enough data to make a definitive assesment. In hindsight, it matches what we know now.

There were several reported outbreaks on naval vessels around the time as well. Where zero people died or were even hospitalised.

In any case, it was more than enough data for me to go "fuck that, I'll take my chances".
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: GeekyBugle on August 21, 2023, 09:47:06 PM
You will be isolated and unhappy:

Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ghostmaker on August 23, 2023, 12:08:58 PM
Don't expect me to play the game a second time.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Howard on August 23, 2023, 12:29:21 PM
Don't expect me to play the game a second time.

An embarrassing number of folks are still playing. I walked by a Ritas Monday afternoon. This is a serving window only store with the ordering area outside (i.e., lots of ventilation). Other than folks standing in line, minimal to no foot traffic at the time (one person had ordered and just left and no one else in line nor within 10' pole range). The couple ordering were masked (above the nose even).

I still see about 5% of the folks in Team Blue areas masking (often with their nose exposed). Even deep in MAGA country I see the occasional mask (with the same demographic split between the two areas- some folks that are clearly high risk (mostly elderly), some folks that are superficially low risk [don't look old nor too overweight]).
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Scooter on August 23, 2023, 07:02:35 PM
There were several reported outbreaks on naval vessels around the time as well. Where zero people died or were even hospitalised.

In any case, it was more than enough data for me to go "fuck that, I'll take my chances".

Two years into the Fakedemic and San Diego County Health Dept. reported a 0% death rate from Covid for age group 0-40.  And as I now know, most "deaths" from Covid over that age group were NOT caused by Covid. Not even comorbidity.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Scooter on August 23, 2023, 07:06:28 PM
You will be isolated and unhappy:


Fortunately where I live mandatory masking AND lock-downs are illegal.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on August 28, 2023, 07:17:33 AM
Oh look, more jabs and coercion: https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/president-joe-biden-says-he-will-request-more-funding-for-a-new-covid-19-vaccine

Other outlets say President Creepy-Nonce said it would be mandatory for everyone to be jabbed. Good luck Americans, your time as trial subjects isn't over.

I don't care what pressure they think they can apply, sitting pretty on having had zero gene therapy and I'll stick.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Scooter on August 28, 2023, 09:13:01 AM
Oh look, more jabs and coercion: https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/president-joe-biden-says-he-will-request-more-funding-for-a-new-covid-19-vaccine

Other outlets say President Creepy-Nonce said it would be mandatory for everyone to be jabbed. Good luck Americans, your time as trial subjects isn't over.

I don't care what pressure they think they can apply, sitting pretty on having had zero gene therapy and I'll stick.

At this point in time anyone who gets one is voluntarily entering the Darwin Awards competition and probably should be screened from the gene pool anyway...
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on August 28, 2023, 09:36:48 AM
At this point in time anyone who gets one is voluntarily entering the Darwin Awards competition and probably should be screened from the gene pool anyway...

If the mRNA works the way it's suspected (the spike protein loves to congregate in the ovaries, for example), by being jabbed they're doing exactly that.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Scooter on August 28, 2023, 10:21:36 AM
At this point in time anyone who gets one is voluntarily entering the Darwin Awards competition and probably should be screened from the gene pool anyway...

If the mRNA works the way it's suspected (the spike protein loves to congregate in the ovaries, for example), by being jabbed they're doing exactly that.

Interesting data...
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on September 01, 2023, 04:27:51 AM
Israeli study shows what we've known for over a year:



Immunity derived from getting over the sniffles by yourself is vastly superior to anything the jabs can achieve.

The jabbed were 13 times more likely to be infected than the unjabbed, and 27 times more likely to be symptomatic. Over the period of the study 8 of the jabbed were hospitalised with the sniffles, 0 of the unjabbed.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on September 01, 2023, 07:16:25 AM
Hey Klava, you've been strangely quiet. As actual study after actual study vindicates what I've been saying since 2021, that the jabs are worthless (worse than that) and there's nothing even remotely deadly about covid-sniffles.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on September 01, 2023, 08:38:30 AM
  Alot of the people going on and on about “dont be afraid of a little shot” and spreading the terrors of “long covid” have gone silent.  Maybe all their time is spent getting new booster, scheduling new boosters, or possibly just not getting any more shots themselves and just staying quiet….
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ratman_tf on September 01, 2023, 08:49:29 AM
  Alot of the people going on and on about “dont be afraid of a little shot”

Fucking goddamn dipshits. I hate that accusation.
For quite a while now, maybe 15 years? I've had benign nodules on the top of my head. Looked damn fugly, but not painful or cancerous or anything. Coincided with gettin old and going bald, so they were there for the world to see. Towards the end of Covid, we had the money for me to have the lumps removed. Hurt like hell afterwards for about a day and a half, but then everything healed up and the lumps are gonzo.
Anyway, I had some doink on social media accuse me of being afraid of the jabbies, and I just laughed at the dipshit and told him about how I just had surgery on my scalp to remove some lumps.

It's not the needles, it's the garbage they're shooting people up with that is the concern.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: GeekyBugle on September 01, 2023, 12:20:28 PM
How did Sweden fare with their different approach?

Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: GeekyBugle on September 01, 2023, 12:31:57 PM
One in 800 adverse effects new study reveals? (Can't find the study cited)

Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Scooter on September 01, 2023, 02:47:23 PM
How did Sweden fare with their different approach?



There ya agin' go trying to confuse libtards with science & facts.  SHAME ON YOU
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on September 03, 2023, 06:38:43 AM
Here you go Gaz, I don't need to publish my "conspiracy theories" because the elites have already done it, so arrogant they are: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Agenda-21-Summit-Nations-Programme/dp/1482672774/ref=sr_1_1?crid=2T0PWD347G02R

You can buy a copy of their blueprint for the future (the thing driving 15 minute cities, ULEZ, the push to eliminate cash and so on) if you'd like. Nothing secret about it.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Garry G on September 03, 2023, 01:01:09 PM
Here you go Gaz, I don't need to publish my "conspiracy theories" because the elites have already done it, so arrogant they are: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Agenda-21-Summit-Nations-Programme/dp/1482672774/ref=sr_1_1?crid=2T0PWD347G02R

You can buy a copy of their blueprint for the future (the thing driving 15 minute cities, ULEZ, the push to eliminate cash and so on) if you'd like. Nothing secret about it.

Cool beans.

I'm already covered bookwise at the moment, The Great delusion by John J Shearman is taking up my time, but I'd love to hear your take on it.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: GeekyBugle on September 03, 2023, 11:02:14 PM
Here you go Gaz, I don't need to publish my "conspiracy theories" because the elites have already done it, so arrogant they are: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Agenda-21-Summit-Nations-Programme/dp/1482672774/ref=sr_1_1?crid=2T0PWD347G02R

You can buy a copy of their blueprint for the future (the thing driving 15 minute cities, ULEZ, the push to eliminate cash and so on) if you'd like. Nothing secret about it.

Cool beans.

I'm already covered bookwise at the moment, The Great delusion by John J Shearman is taking up my time, but I'd love to hear your take on it.

Garry: "Give me evidence!"
Kiero: "Here, read it in their own words"
Garry: "I don't have the time, you read it and then explain it to me so I can keep pretending YOU missunderstood everything, and if you don't I'll pretend you didn't present what I demanded in order to preserve my cult's narrative"

ME: Go fuck yourself you disingenuous weasel!
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Garry G on September 04, 2023, 04:53:52 PM
Here you go Gaz, I don't need to publish my "conspiracy theories" because the elites have already done it, so arrogant they are: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Agenda-21-Summit-Nations-Programme/dp/1482672774/ref=sr_1_1?crid=2T0PWD347G02R

You can buy a copy of their blueprint for the future (the thing driving 15 minute cities, ULEZ, the push to eliminate cash and so on) if you'd like. Nothing secret about it.


Cool beans.

I'm already covered bookwise at the moment, The Great delusion by John J Shearman is taking up my time, but I'd love to hear your take on it.

Garry: "Give me evidence!"
Kiero: "Here, read it in their own words"
Garry: "I don't have the time, you read it and then explain it to me so I can keep pretending YOU missunderstood everything, and if you don't I'll pretend you didn't present what I demanded in order to preserve my cult's narrative"

ME: Go fuck yourself you disingenuous weasel!


I'm out of my book budget this month. Should I have to buy evidence? I'm also concerned give the blurb that it's just a load of ideas which aren't enforceable, the word voluntary is right there. I'm not sure I should feel made to buy evidence that may not be there. Mibbe Kiero is a shill for the book, has he even read it himself? He doesn't seem to like these people so mibbe he's not bought it himself which would make his claim that it is evidence weird. What was your take when you read it?

You're very rude, are you like this in real life? That would be tiresome. I bet you're normally dead polite to people and love your mum. What would your mum think about your language?

Anyway please feel free to tell me why you recommend this book.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: GeekyBugle on September 09, 2023, 12:37:03 PM
Bombshell COVID Study ELIMINATES Justification for Mask Mandates, Lockdowns

Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Scooter on September 09, 2023, 03:42:11 PM
Bombshell COVID Study ELIMINATES Justification for Mask Mandates, Lockdowns



Duh, the mask mandate was debunked from day 1.  The lock downs by anyone reading the constitution.  Only the terminally stupid bought it.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on September 10, 2023, 11:10:25 AM
I'm out of my book budget this month. Should I have to buy evidence? I'm also concerned give the blurb that it's just a load of ideas which aren't enforceable, the word voluntary is right there. I'm not sure I should feel made to buy evidence that may not be there. Mibbe Kiero is a shill for the book, has he even read it himself? He doesn't seem to like these people so mibbe he's not bought it himself which would make his claim that it is evidence weird. What was your take when you read it?

You're very rude, are you like this in real life? That would be tiresome. I bet you're normally dead polite to people and love your mum. What would your mum think about your language?

Anyway please feel free to tell me why you recommend this book.

Gosh, you sound awfully sincere. I'll be right on that response...
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Scooter on September 10, 2023, 11:18:07 AM
I'm out of my book budget this month. Should I have to buy evidence? I'm also concerned give the blurb that it's just a load of ideas which aren't enforceable, the word voluntary is right there. I'm not sure I should feel made to buy evidence that may not be there. Mibbe Kiero is a shill for the book, has he even read it himself? He doesn't seem to like these people so mibbe he's not bought it himself which would make his claim that it is evidence weird. What was your take when you read it?

You're very rude, are you like this in real life? That would be tiresome. I bet you're normally dead polite to people and love your mum. What would your mum think about your language?

Anyway please feel free to tell me why you recommend this book.

Gosh, you sound awfully sincere. I'll be right on that response...

What do you expect from someone stupid enough to fall for the false pandemic crap?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Garry G on September 10, 2023, 02:13:14 PM
I'm out of my book budget this month. Should I have to buy evidence? I'm also concerned give the blurb that it's just a load of ideas which aren't enforceable, the word voluntary is right there. I'm not sure I should feel made to buy evidence that may not be there. Mibbe Kiero is a shill for the book, has he even read it himself? He doesn't seem to like these people so mibbe he's not bought it himself which would make his claim that it is evidence weird. What was your take when you read it?

You're very rude, are you like this in real life? That would be tiresome. I bet you're normally dead polite to people and love your mum. What would your mum think about your language?

Anyway please feel free to tell me why you recommend this book.

Gosh, you sound awfully sincere. I'll be right on that response...

I am sincere. I'm not quite sure why you don't get that but it's clearly a problem that you have.

I'm sincerely questioning why you would recommend a book that you haven't bought and read. Why would you do that? That doesn't sound very sincere.

I did finish The Great Delusion and it's an interesting work of political philosophy talking about how great nations are unable to force liberalism on the world. You'd think it would be your thing but part of it is how a world government isn't possible. You should give it a go though, I highly recommend it as a book I've read. Books I've actually read are ones I recommend.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Eirikrautha on September 10, 2023, 02:49:53 PM
Books I've actually read are ones I recommend.

Wake us when you start recommending books you actually understand...
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Garry G on September 10, 2023, 03:37:41 PM
Books I've actually read are ones I recommend.

Wake us when you start recommending books you actually understand...

I've got a load of Mr Men books for you.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Eirikrautha on September 10, 2023, 03:40:44 PM
Books I've actually read are ones I recommend.

Wake us when you start recommending books you actually understand...

I've got a load of Mr Men books for you.

Just because you met a man once, doesn't mean you understand them.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Garry G on September 16, 2023, 10:17:15 AM
(https://i.pinimg.com/564x/2b/7f/0e/2b7f0ebc95f7b979c38d8403199d1609.jpg)
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on September 22, 2023, 10:57:08 AM
New study in The Lancet shows mRNA in breast milk up to 45 hours after a woman is jabbed.

But it totally stays at the injection site, the liars said!

In fact Dr John looked at this:
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Scooter on September 22, 2023, 11:05:57 AM
New study in The Lancet shows mRNA in breast milk up to 45 hours after a woman is jabbed.

But it totally stays at the injection site, the liars said!


Come on.  Only the terminally stupid EVER believed that, 1) that there was a pandemic. 2) that the insanely rushed "vaccines" were safe for use on humans.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on September 22, 2023, 12:35:08 PM
Come on.  Only the terminally stupid EVER believed that, 1) that there was a pandemic. 2) that the insanely rushed "vaccines" were safe for use on humans.

Whether or not they believed it, they did it. Which is why this matters.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Scooter on September 22, 2023, 12:36:38 PM
Come on.  Only the terminally stupid EVER believed that, 1) that there was a pandemic. 2) that the insanely rushed "vaccines" were safe for use on humans.

Whether or not they believed it, they did it. Which is why this matters.


Of course it matters.    Those stupid enough to be taken in shouldn't be allowed to vote.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: KindaMeh on September 22, 2023, 01:34:54 PM
So… the upwards of 80% of the population that had at least one shot?

I think it’s less that kind of statistic that would disturb me, and moreso the number of folks who wanted to take away choice and discriminated politically, religiously, and with respect to assembly using COVID as an excuse. Or even just as their reason.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Exploderwizard on September 25, 2023, 10:35:42 AM
New study in The Lancet shows mRNA in breast milk up to 45 hours after a woman is jabbed.

But it totally stays at the injection site, the liars said!


Come on.  Only the terminally stupid EVER believed that, 1) that there was a pandemic. 2) that the insanely rushed "vaccines" were safe for use on humans.

Rushed? The clot shots were no rushed by any means. They were developed and waiting for the release of the COVID scam for quite some time.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on October 01, 2023, 09:13:46 AM
Neil Oliver on blistering form, telling how it is:



Three presenters from GBNews have already been removed over nothing, it can only be a matter of time before they come for him.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on October 01, 2023, 01:02:39 PM
15 minute cities are just a conspiracy theory...except YouGov is carrying out polling to assess what people think should be contained within a zone: https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1708455575581782108
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on October 01, 2023, 02:01:41 PM
Article on the link between mRNA and cardiac damage: https://pubs.rsna.org/doi/full/10.1148/radiol.232244?utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on October 02, 2023, 01:30:22 PM
No one was ever forced to get the jab, though: https://twitter.com/MarkChangizi/status/1708678426696040512
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Scooter on October 02, 2023, 03:57:00 PM
No one was ever forced to get the jab, though: https://twitter.com/MarkChangizi/status/1708678426696040512

Right  ;)
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Garry G on October 03, 2023, 03:51:15 PM
15 minute cities are just a conspiracy theory...except YouGov is carrying out polling to assess what people think should be contained within a zone: https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1708455575581782108

A conspiracy of things being convenient? Lets look at the list of things,

Bus Stop
Post Box
Pharmacy
GP Surgery
Park
Primary School
Convenience Store
Nursery
Supermarket
Bank

Which of these do you want to be inconvenient for you to access? l want to dive deeper but there's no depth here at all. Is having a local park, primary school and GP a short walk from your house an indication of an oppressive world government stamping its boot on your face?

You're actually being bad at the conspiracy stuff now. You shouldn't be providing this as evidence of the conspiracy but as an example of how their luring the sheeple are being lured in with promises of access to nurseries and supermarkets. Stupid sheeple wanting stuff nearby that will only lead to, well what?

This is where you point out that this is to contain them so they can't travel anywhere because the Conspiracy doesn't want them to travel, for reasons. Reasons!

I'm at a bit of a loss on the next step and I'm not buying a book you haven't to find out so I'll hand it over to you. Why is having a nursery a short walk from your home a bad thing?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Scooter on October 03, 2023, 04:11:24 PM

Which of these do you want to be inconvenient for you to access?

Straw man.  15 minute cities are talking exclusively about walking/biking distance.  NOT auto distance.  So, for the US it isn't inconvenient to not have them.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Garry G on October 03, 2023, 04:45:05 PM

Which of these do you want to be inconvenient for you to access?

Straw man.  15 minute cities are talking exclusively about walking/biking distance.  NOT auto distance.  So, for the US it isn't inconvenient to not have them.

Neither Kiero or I are in the US. The poll he links to isn't in the US.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Exploderwizard on October 03, 2023, 04:50:47 PM
15 minute cities are just a conspiracy theory...except YouGov is carrying out polling to assess what people think should be contained within a zone: https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1708455575581782108

A conspiracy of things being convenient? Lets look at the list of things,

Bus Stop
Post Box
Pharmacy
GP Surgery
Park
Primary School
Convenience Store
Nursery
Supermarket
Bank

Which of these do you want to be inconvenient for you to access? l want to dive deeper but there's no depth here at all. Is having a local park, primary school and GP a short walk from your house an indication of an oppressive world government stamping its boot on your face?

You're actually being bad at the conspiracy stuff now. You shouldn't be providing this as evidence of the conspiracy but as an example of how their luring the sheeple are being lured in with promises of access to nurseries and supermarkets. Stupid sheeple wanting stuff nearby that will only lead to, well what?

This is where you point out that this is to contain them so they can't travel anywhere because the Conspiracy doesn't want them to travel, for reasons. Reasons!

I'm at a bit of a loss on the next step and I'm not buying a book you haven't to find out so I'll hand it over to you. Why is having a nursery a short walk from your home a bad thing?

They can build these little utopian villages all they want as long as they don't steal or confiscate anyone's land to do so. Some people like to live rural with the freedom to move around as they please, which isn't a bad thing either. I reckon if they leave country folk and farmers alone then the country folks won't have an issue with their little cities.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Scooter on October 03, 2023, 05:05:09 PM

They can build these little utopian villages all they want as long as they don't steal or confiscate anyone's land to do so. Some people like to live rural with the freedom to move around as they please, which isn't a bad thing either. I reckon if they leave country folk and farmers alone then the country folks won't have an issue with their little cities.

In European countries in general there isn't a recognition of inalienable human rights. So they don't see it as stealing as that would imply a right to ones own property...
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on October 04, 2023, 04:54:49 AM
A conspiracy of things being convenient? Lets look at the list of things,

Bus Stop
Post Box
Pharmacy
GP Surgery
Park
Primary School
Convenience Store
Nursery
Supermarket
Bank

Which of these do you want to be inconvenient for you to access? l want to dive deeper but there's no depth here at all. Is having a local park, primary school and GP a short walk from your house an indication of an oppressive world government stamping its boot on your face?

You're actually being bad at the conspiracy stuff now. You shouldn't be providing this as evidence of the conspiracy but as an example of how their luring the sheeple are being lured in with promises of access to nurseries and supermarkets. Stupid sheeple wanting stuff nearby that will only lead to, well what?

This is where you point out that this is to contain them so they can't travel anywhere because the Conspiracy doesn't want them to travel, for reasons. Reasons!

I'm at a bit of a loss on the next step and I'm not buying a book you haven't to find out so I'll hand it over to you. Why is having a nursery a short walk from your home a bad thing?

I don't believe you are legitimately this dim. Which is why I tend to assume you're being disingenuous.

On planet Earth, there is a country called China. It is a very large country with a huge population and an authoritarian government which likes to control what it's citizens do. This matters to us because they are being used as a model of how our society should be structured by the people who have power.

In China, you are not allowed to leave your designated zone unless your Social Credit score is above a certain level. The entire purpose of 15 minute cities is not to ensure convenience for the citizen, but to enable control of the movement of those citizens by the state. Once it is locked in, you will no longer have freedom of movement to go about as you like, but will instead require authorisation.

If you looked any further than the end of your nose, you'd see the implications of all of this crap being foisted on us.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on October 04, 2023, 04:59:41 AM
In European countries in general there isn't a recognition of inalienable human rights. So they don't see it as stealing as that would imply a right to ones own property...

Most of continental Europe operates on the assumptions of the Code Napoleon and the civil law. The most basic assumption of that system is that everything that is not permitted is forbidden. There are no inalienable rights, because all rights are expressly and explicitly granted by law.

The UK and many places formerly colonised by us instead operate under the common law. The assumption is reversed, everything not forbidden is permitted. In other words the default state is one of freedom, not control. It is no coincidence that since our membership of the EU, there has been an ever-increasing preponderance of legislation which operate as the civil law does, describing what we are allowed to do, rather than what we are not allowed to do.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Scooter on October 04, 2023, 09:00:22 AM
In European countries in general there isn't a recognition of inalienable human rights. So they don't see it as stealing as that would imply a right to ones own property...

Most of continental Europe operates on


Yes.  They never quite made to the age of enlightenment...
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: GeekyBugle on October 04, 2023, 03:27:17 PM
A conspiracy of things being convenient? Lets look at the list of things,

Bus Stop
Post Box
Pharmacy
GP Surgery
Park
Primary School
Convenience Store
Nursery
Supermarket
Bank

Which of these do you want to be inconvenient for you to access? l want to dive deeper but there's no depth here at all. Is having a local park, primary school and GP a short walk from your house an indication of an oppressive world government stamping its boot on your face?

You're actually being bad at the conspiracy stuff now. You shouldn't be providing this as evidence of the conspiracy but as an example of how their luring the sheeple are being lured in with promises of access to nurseries and supermarkets. Stupid sheeple wanting stuff nearby that will only lead to, well what?

This is where you point out that this is to contain them so they can't travel anywhere because the Conspiracy doesn't want them to travel, for reasons. Reasons!

I'm at a bit of a loss on the next step and I'm not buying a book you haven't to find out so I'll hand it over to you. Why is having a nursery a short walk from your home a bad thing?

I don't believe you are legitimately this dim. Which is why I tend to assume you're being disingenuous.

On planet Earth, there is a country called China. It is a very large country with a huge population and an authoritarian government which likes to control what it's citizens do. This matters to us because they are being used as a model of how our society should be structured by the people who have power.

In China, you are not allowed to leave your designated zone unless your Social Credit score is above a certain level. The entire purpose of 15 minute cities is not to ensure convenience for the citizen, but to enable control of the movement of those citizens by the state. Once it is locked in, you will no longer have freedom of movement to go about as you like, but will instead require authorisation.

If you looked any further than the end of your nose, you'd see the implications of all of this crap being foisted on us.

You're assuming (wrongly IMNSHO) that his position is due to ignorance and not malice.

Of course it could be that he thinks living under the CCP UK division is something desirable and that will improve the people's lifes, but "by their fruits ye shall know them".
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Garry G on October 04, 2023, 03:33:47 PM
A conspiracy of things being convenient? Lets look at the list of things,

Bus Stop
Post Box
Pharmacy
GP Surgery
Park
Primary School
Convenience Store
Nursery
Supermarket
Bank

Which of these do you want to be inconvenient for you to access? l want to dive deeper but there's no depth here at all. Is having a local park, primary school and GP a short walk from your house an indication of an oppressive world government stamping its boot on your face?

You're actually being bad at the conspiracy stuff now. You shouldn't be providing this as evidence of the conspiracy but as an example of how their luring the sheeple are being lured in with promises of access to nurseries and supermarkets. Stupid sheeple wanting stuff nearby that will only lead to, well what?

This is where you point out that this is to contain them so they can't travel anywhere because the Conspiracy doesn't want them to travel, for reasons. Reasons!

I'm at a bit of a loss on the next step and I'm not buying a book you haven't to find out so I'll hand it over to you. Why is having a nursery a short walk from your home a bad thing?

I don't believe you are legitimately this dim. Which is why I tend to assume you're being disingenuous.

On planet Earth, there is a country called China. It is a very large country with a huge population and an authoritarian government which likes to control what it's citizens do. This matters to us because they are being used as a model of how our society should be structured by the people who have power.

In China, you are not allowed to leave your designated zone unless your Social Credit score is above a certain level. The entire purpose of 15 minute cities is not to ensure convenience for the citizen, but to enable control of the movement of those citizens by the state. Once it is locked in, you will no longer have freedom of movement to go about as you like, but will instead require authorisation.

If you looked any further than the end of your nose, you'd see the implications of all of this crap being foisted on us.

Okay let me try to get this through my thick head. My kids primary school is an easy 10 minute walk from my house and because of this I

So let me try to get this through my thick head. My kids school being a 10 minute walk away means I'm being oppressed like in China? Your local council asking if you'd like a convenient post office just down the road is them oppressing you like in China? Stuff being convenient so we can just walk there is locking us in our local communities until one day I won't be able to dive travel somewhere to see a gig, visit friends or just hang out?

I'm not saying that this isn't possible but it seems a wee bit improbable. Can you think of an alternative reason why they're asking these questions. Let's have a thought experiment on those alternatives, can you think of any?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Garry G on October 04, 2023, 03:35:20 PM
A conspiracy of things being convenient? Lets look at the list of things,

Bus Stop
Post Box
Pharmacy
GP Surgery
Park
Primary School
Convenience Store
Nursery
Supermarket
Bank

Which of these do you want to be inconvenient for you to access? l want to dive deeper but there's no depth here at all. Is having a local park, primary school and GP a short walk from your house an indication of an oppressive world government stamping its boot on your face?

You're actually being bad at the conspiracy stuff now. You shouldn't be providing this as evidence of the conspiracy but as an example of how their luring the sheeple are being lured in with promises of access to nurseries and supermarkets. Stupid sheeple wanting stuff nearby that will only lead to, well what?

This is where you point out that this is to contain them so they can't travel anywhere because the Conspiracy doesn't want them to travel, for reasons. Reasons!

I'm at a bit of a loss on the next step and I'm not buying a book you haven't to find out so I'll hand it over to you. Why is having a nursery a short walk from your home a bad thing?

I don't believe you are legitimately this dim. Which is why I tend to assume you're being disingenuous.

On planet Earth, there is a country called China. It is a very large country with a huge population and an authoritarian government which likes to control what it's citizens do. This matters to us because they are being used as a model of how our society should be structured by the people who have power.

In China, you are not allowed to leave your designated zone unless your Social Credit score is above a certain level. The entire purpose of 15 minute cities is not to ensure convenience for the citizen, but to enable control of the movement of those citizens by the state. Once it is locked in, you will no longer have freedom of movement to go about as you like, but will instead require authorisation.

If you looked any further than the end of your nose, you'd see the implications of all of this crap being foisted on us.

You're assuming (wrongly IMNSHO) that his position is due to ignorance and not malice.

Of course it could be that he thinks living under the CCP UK division is something desirable and that will improve the people's lifes, but "by their fruits ye shall know them".

You can join in Geekybugle. Can you envision any other reason for having a local nursery other than marxism?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on October 04, 2023, 04:40:46 PM
Okay let me try to get this through my thick head. My kids primary school is an easy 10 minute walk from my house and because of this I

So let me try to get this through my thick head. My kids school being a 10 minute walk away means I'm being oppressed like in China? Your local council asking if you'd like a convenient post office just down the road is them oppressing you like in China? Stuff being convenient so we can just walk there is locking us in our local communities until one day I won't be able to dive travel somewhere to see a gig, visit friends or just hang out?

I'm not saying that this isn't possible but it seems a wee bit improbable. Can you think of an alternative reason why they're asking these questions. Let's have a thought experiment on those alternatives, can you think of any?

It's got nothing to do with your convenience, it's about curtailing your movement. Those amenities in your zone will be the only ones you're allowed to use, whether you like them or not.

Visiting friends outside your zone? What's your Social Credit score, Citizen? Did you express an un-approved opinion online recently - that's -50 points for you.

They're not asking because they give a fuck, they're asking to try to legitimise the imposition of this without any consultation. Because whenever there's been a consultation, it's been rejected (see Oxford). Which they promptly ignored and carried on anyway.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Scooter on October 04, 2023, 04:53:09 PM
Okay let me try to get this through my thick head. My kids primary school is an easy 10 minute walk from my house and because of this I

So let me try to get this through my thick head. My kids school being a 10 minute walk away means I'm being oppressed like in China? Your local council asking if you'd like a convenient post office just down the road is them oppressing you like in China? Stuff being convenient so we can just walk there is locking us in our local communities until one day I won't be able to dive travel somewhere to see a gig, visit friends or just hang out?

I'm not saying that this isn't possible but it seems a wee bit improbable. Can you think of an alternative reason why they're asking these questions. Let's have a thought experiment on those alternatives, can you think of any?

It's got nothing to do with your convenience, it's about curtailing your movement. Those amenities in your zone will be the only ones you're allowed to use, whether you like them or not.

Visiting friends outside your zone? What's your Social Credit score, Citizen? Did you express an un-approved opinion online recently - that's -50 points for you.

They're not asking because they give a fuck, they're asking to try to legitimise the imposition of this without any consultation. Because whenever there's been a consultation, it's been rejected (see Oxford). Which they promptly ignored and carried on anyway.

There were over 3,000 people arrested in Britain for social media posts in 2019 alone.  This was for offensive posts or posts that caused people to feel uncomfortable.

There are multiple cases where social media users were arrested and jailed for years just because of one single click spreading misinformation or hate speech. In the UK, 114,958 hate crimes were recorded by police between March 2020 and March 2021, about 4,000 resulted in imprisonment.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Garry G on October 08, 2023, 01:20:32 PM
A conspiracy of things being convenient? Lets look at the list of things,

Bus Stop
Post Box
Pharmacy
GP Surgery
Park
Primary School
Convenience Store
Nursery
Supermarket
Bank

Which of these do you want to be inconvenient for you to access? l want to dive deeper but there's no depth here at all. Is having a local park, primary school and GP a short walk from your house an indication of an oppressive world government stamping its boot on your face?

You're actually being bad at the conspiracy stuff now. You shouldn't be providing this as evidence of the conspiracy but as an example of how their luring the sheeple are being lured in with promises of access to nurseries and supermarkets. Stupid sheeple wanting stuff nearby that will only lead to, well what?

This is where you point out that this is to contain them so they can't travel anywhere because the Conspiracy doesn't want them to travel, for reasons. Reasons!

I'm at a bit of a loss on the next step and I'm not buying a book you haven't to find out so I'll hand it over to you. Why is having a nursery a short walk from your home a bad thing?

I don't believe you are legitimately this dim. Which is why I tend to assume you're being disingenuous.

On planet Earth, there is a country called China. It is a very large country with a huge population and an authoritarian government which likes to control what it's citizens do. This matters to us because they are being used as a model of how our society should be structured by the people who have power.

In China, you are not allowed to leave your designated zone unless your Social Credit score is above a certain level. The entire purpose of 15 minute cities is not to ensure convenience for the citizen, but to enable control of the movement of those citizens by the state. Once it is locked in, you will no longer have freedom of movement to go about as you like, but will instead require authorisation.

If you looked any further than the end of your nose, you'd see the implications of all of this crap being foisted on us.

You're assuming (wrongly IMNSHO) that his position is due to ignorance and not malice.

Of course it could be that he thinks living under the CCP UK division is something desirable and that will improve the people's lifes, but "by their fruits ye shall know them".

TI was going to say this is interesting but then I realised it's only interesting because it's so weird. Are you saying that I'm somehow part of the international conspiracy or that I'm just happy because I think a CCP style government in the UK would be a good thing? It's a bigger step than Keiro thinking I'm just an idiot who can't see how all the threads on his whiteboard connect to show how his barmy theory works.

I am probably a Marxist in your eyes what with my belief in universal healthcare, mixed economies and decent social security, all pretty weak sauce leftism in my opinion, but the jump to me being some agent of China is really pretty weird. Can you unpack it a bit for me?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Garry G on October 08, 2023, 01:33:58 PM
Okay let me try to get this through my thick head. My kids primary school is an easy 10 minute walk from my house and because of this I

So let me try to get this through my thick head. My kids school being a 10 minute walk away means I'm being oppressed like in China? Your local council asking if you'd like a convenient post office just down the road is them oppressing you like in China? Stuff being convenient so we can just walk there is locking us in our local communities until one day I won't be able to dive travel somewhere to see a gig, visit friends or just hang out?

I'm not saying that this isn't possible but it seems a wee bit improbable. Can you think of an alternative reason why they're asking these questions. Let's have a thought experiment on those alternatives, can you think of any?

It's got nothing to do with your convenience, it's about curtailing your movement. Those amenities in your zone will be the only ones you're allowed to use, whether you like them or not.

Visiting friends outside your zone? What's your Social Credit score, Citizen? Did you express an un-approved opinion online recently - that's -50 points for you.

They're not asking because they give a fuck, they're asking to try to legitimise the imposition of this without any consultation. Because whenever there's been a consultation, it's been rejected (see Oxford). Which they promptly ignored and carried on anyway.

I'm not convinced. You're argument remains that it's obvious and anybody not agreeing with you is an idiot for reasons without digging any deeper. We can all agree that China has a despotic state that nobody wants to see copied in other nations, in fact our own countries leaders who are fuckwits agree that China is a despotic state that nobody wants to see copies in other nations. Your interpretation of events is extreme and needs a bit more than stating anybody who disagrees is stupid.

It's more than that though Keiro. If it was a single conspiracy theory I'd be more inclined to give you the benefit of the doubt but you've signed up to all of them. There's no simple reason for anything that happens, it's all some overarching bullshit, I don't like that because it affects our ability to engage over anything. There's no nuance and I have to admit it means I can't talk to you when I see that facts have been uncovered that change my mind over smaller things that still don't mean that there's a giant conspiracy. The rabbit hole isn't good for any of us.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on October 10, 2023, 02:02:02 PM
I'm not convinced. You're argument remains that it's obvious and anybody not agreeing with you is an idiot for reasons without digging any deeper. We can all agree that China has a despotic state that nobody wants to see copied in other nations, in fact our own countries leaders who are fuckwits agree that China is a despotic state that nobody wants to see copies in other nations. Your interpretation of events is extreme and needs a bit more than stating anybody who disagrees is stupid.

It's more than that though Keiro. If it was a single conspiracy theory I'd be more inclined to give you the benefit of the doubt but you've signed up to all of them. There's no simple reason for anything that happens, it's all some overarching bullshit, I don't like that because it affects our ability to engage over anything. There's no nuance and I have to admit it means I can't talk to you when I see that facts have been uncovered that change my mind over smaller things that still don't mean that there's a giant conspiracy. The rabbit hole isn't good for any of us.

You're the frog in the pot who can't tell the water is heating up around him. Good luck.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on October 10, 2023, 02:07:11 PM
  I think one of the problems around seeing things governments have done and admitted to in the past makes it clear that the stuff they have been caught for shows they will do anything.  Given the same sorts of terrible people run governments today as in bygone days when they did terrible shit they admitted to later means they are still going to do terrible shit, the admitting to is the part in question, not what they are capable of. 

    These people are running ant farms and only care about the overall condition of the colony (meaning if a bunch of ants die they do not give a shit as long as they get what they want from the colony) not the lives and quality of experience of the ants.  Trusting in government at this point has become its own religion, the people who do it are simply unwilling to veer from their god.   Some may even be willing to be sacrifices to that god. 
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Garry G on October 10, 2023, 03:17:15 PM
I'm not convinced. You're argument remains that it's obvious and anybody not agreeing with you is an idiot for reasons without digging any deeper. We can all agree that China has a despotic state that nobody wants to see copied in other nations, in fact our own countries leaders who are fuckwits agree that China is a despotic state that nobody wants to see copies in other nations. Your interpretation of events is extreme and needs a bit more than stating anybody who disagrees is stupid.

It's more than that though Keiro. If it was a single conspiracy theory I'd be more inclined to give you the benefit of the doubt but you've signed up to all of them. There's no simple reason for anything that happens, it's all some overarching bullshit, I don't like that because it affects our ability to engage over anything. There's no nuance and I have to admit it means I can't talk to you when I see that facts have been uncovered that change my mind over smaller things that still don't mean that there's a giant conspiracy. The rabbit hole isn't good for any of us.

You're the frog in the pot who can't tell the water is heating up around him. Good luck.

I know, you're a wild eyed loner standing at the gates of Oblivion on the last freedom moped out of Nowhere city and you haven't even told your parents that what time you'll be back.

Given that there's no nuance, no possibility that anything you declare as obvious fact can be wrong, what's you're next step? I see people taking action over stuff like the climate crisis. I know you disagree with them but what you're presenting is clearly just as much of an existential threat so what are you doing? You're clearly not trying to convince people who disagree.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Scooter on October 10, 2023, 03:18:49 PM
I see people taking action over stuff like the climate crisis.

What kind of idiots think they can change natural Earth cycles?  "Taking action"?   :o
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on October 10, 2023, 03:21:16 PM
I'm not convinced. You're argument remains that it's obvious and anybody not agreeing with you is an idiot for reasons without digging any deeper. We can all agree that China has a despotic state that nobody wants to see copied in other nations, in fact our own countries leaders who are fuckwits agree that China is a despotic state that nobody wants to see copies in other nations. Your interpretation of events is extreme and needs a bit more than stating anybody who disagrees is stupid.

It's more than that though Keiro. If it was a single conspiracy theory I'd be more inclined to give you the benefit of the doubt but you've signed up to all of them. There's no simple reason for anything that happens, it's all some overarching bullshit, I don't like that because it affects our ability to engage over anything. There's no nuance and I have to admit it means I can't talk to you when I see that facts have been uncovered that change my mind over smaller things that still don't mean that there's a giant conspiracy. The rabbit hole isn't good for any of us.

You're the frog in the pot who can't tell the water is heating up around him. Good luck.

I know, you're a wild eyed loner standing at the gates of Oblivion on the last freedom moped out of Nowhere city and you haven't even told your parents that what time you'll be back.

Given that there's no nuance, no possibility that anything you declare as obvious fact can be wrong, what's you're next step? I see people taking action over stuff like the climate crisis. I know you disagree with them but what you're presenting is clearly just as much of an existential threat so what are you doing? You're clearly not trying to convince people who disagree.

  What actions have they taken and could you give me numbers as to the difference those actions have made?   Do you honestly believe humans are at an existential threat from Climate crisis/change/warming/cooling/wtf every people are calling it created by humans?   
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Garry G on October 10, 2023, 03:28:07 PM
  I think one of the problems around seeing things governments have done and admitted to in the past makes it clear that the stuff they have been caught for shows they will do anything.  Given the same sorts of terrible people run governments today as in bygone days when they did terrible shit they admitted to later means they are still going to do terrible shit, the admitting to is the part in question, not what they are capable of. 

    These people are running ant farms and only care about the overall condition of the colony (meaning if a bunch of ants die they do not give a shit as long as they get what they want from the colony) not the lives and quality of experience of the ants.  Trusting in government at this point has become its own religion, the people who do it are simply unwilling to veer from their god.   Some may even be willing to be sacrifices to that god.

I don't know how to parse this. People are aware that governments have done terrible shit before and continue to be aware of it. People protest, sometimes work within the system to change the behaviour of governments and in extreme circumstances overthrow them. This is all stuff that is going on right now. Not believing that there's an international Chinese conspiracy to inflict a social credit system on the whole wide world doesn't mean that people trust their governments on anything else. The UK government is a fucking mess, in fact one of their recent attempts to get people like Kiero onside is attacking the idea of 15 minute cities, so if having them in power is part of the Global Hegemony then it's not very good. In fact it's the opposite of good, it's beyond that it's gone through some sort bad event horizon and become something else.

I get it, government is bad because it does bad stuff. I'm all up for identifying the bad and working against it but we don't need mad nonsense for this.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Garry G on October 10, 2023, 03:42:09 PM
I'm not convinced. You're argument remains that it's obvious and anybody not agreeing with you is an idiot for reasons without digging any deeper. We can all agree that China has a despotic state that nobody wants to see copied in other nations, in fact our own countries leaders who are fuckwits agree that China is a despotic state that nobody wants to see copies in other nations. Your interpretation of events is extreme and needs a bit more than stating anybody who disagrees is stupid.

It's more than that though Keiro. If it was a single conspiracy theory I'd be more inclined to give you the benefit of the doubt but you've signed up to all of them. There's no simple reason for anything that happens, it's all some overarching bullshit, I don't like that because it affects our ability to engage over anything. There's no nuance and I have to admit it means I can't talk to you when I see that facts have been uncovered that change my mind over smaller things that still don't mean that there's a giant conspiracy. The rabbit hole isn't good for any of us.

You're the frog in the pot who can't tell the water is heating up around him. Good luck.

I know, you're a wild eyed loner standing at the gates of Oblivion on the last freedom moped out of Nowhere city and you haven't even told your parents that what time you'll be back.

Given that there's no nuance, no possibility that anything you declare as obvious fact can be wrong, what's you're next step? I see people taking action over stuff like the climate crisis. I know you disagree with them but what you're presenting is clearly just as much of an existential threat so what are you doing? You're clearly not trying to convince people who disagree.

  What actions have they taken and could you give me numbers as to the difference those actions have made?   Do you honestly believe humans are at an existential threat from Climate crisis/change/warming/cooling/wtf every people are calling it created by humans?

You aren't aware of any climate crisis protests? Really? You've never heard of Greta Thunberg or Just Stop Oil? Okay I'll let you go and have a look. I'm surprised you haven't noticed but I suppose it's possible to be so down the rabbit hole you're only seeing what you want.

Finished looking? Okay.

The depressing thing is that the gains are few. Public perception of the problem has risen but governments have failed again and again to take on the  problem. It may not be possible to make a difference but it's important to try.

I find it perfectly reasonable to take on board that humans have had a significant impact on the climate. I know scientists are out of fashion cos experts are bad but there's broad agreement on it within the scientific community. It may prove to be the great existential threat to us.

Of course this is avoiding my actual argument, nice one, people who genuinely believe that there's a threat are making a stand. I'm asking what's being done about Kieros concerns, if us sheeple are really frogs in water shouldn't he be out there like the climate activists are?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on October 10, 2023, 03:43:14 PM
  We do not need mad nonsense....however there is pretty much zero reason to trust any institution in the west these days other than a literal religious leap of faith.  That sort of bad track record has got people crawling down every rabbit hole one can imagine.  Maybe some are still worthy of trust....they have eroded their credibility so much though its created a whole lot of bad sentiment.  Not everyone is glomming onto everything...but only fools are going to take the official line on matters now. 
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on October 10, 2023, 03:50:29 PM
I'm not convinced. You're argument remains that it's obvious and anybody not agreeing with you is an idiot for reasons without digging any deeper. We can all agree that China has a despotic state that nobody wants to see copied in other nations, in fact our own countries leaders who are fuckwits agree that China is a despotic state that nobody wants to see copies in other nations. Your interpretation of events is extreme and needs a bit more than stating anybody who disagrees is stupid.

It's more than that though Keiro. If it was a single conspiracy theory I'd be more inclined to give you the benefit of the doubt but you've signed up to all of them. There's no simple reason for anything that happens, it's all some overarching bullshit, I don't like that because it affects our ability to engage over anything. There's no nuance and I have to admit it means I can't talk to you when I see that facts have been uncovered that change my mind over smaller things that still don't mean that there's a giant conspiracy. The rabbit hole isn't good for any of us.

You're the frog in the pot who can't tell the water is heating up around him. Good luck.

I know, you're a wild eyed loner standing at the gates of Oblivion on the last freedom moped out of Nowhere city and you haven't even told your parents that what time you'll be back.

Given that there's no nuance, no possibility that anything you declare as obvious fact can be wrong, what's you're next step? I see people taking action over stuff like the climate crisis. I know you disagree with them but what you're presenting is clearly just as much of an existential threat so what are you doing? You're clearly not trying to convince people who disagree.

  What actions have they taken and could you give me numbers as to the difference those actions have made?   Do you honestly believe humans are at an existential threat from Climate crisis/change/warming/cooling/wtf every people are calling it created by humans?

You aren't aware of any climate crisis protests? Really? You've never heard of Greta Thunberg or Just Stop Oil? Okay I'll let you go and have a look. I'm surprised you haven't noticed but I suppose it's possible to be so down the rabbit hole you're only seeing what you want.

Finished looking? Okay.

The depressing thing is that the gains are few. Public perception of the problem has risen but governments have failed again and again to take on the  problem. It may not be possible to make a difference but it's important to try.

I find it perfectly reasonable to take on board that humans have had a significant impact on the climate. I know scientists are out of fashion cos experts are bad but there's broad agreement on it within the scientific community. It may prove to be the great existential threat to us.

Of course this is avoiding my actual argument, nice one, people who genuinely believe that there's a threat are making a stand. I'm asking what's being done about Kieros concerns, if us sheeple are really frogs in water shouldn't he be out there like the climate activists are?

  Oh I see people fucking up traffic and art.  I asked what differences it had made and the numbers.  There has been no broad agreement about man made climate changes.  I do think polluters cause serious problems, but I think there is a long and more important list above *possible* climate influence.   Those protesters are not changing anything except how often they inhale their own farts to feel better about themselves.  If you are concerned about the sort of things Kiero might be...protest will not change anything (for one, you are automatically on the "right wing" side of a protest scenario...that means feds, lock up and persecution) but stocking up food, water, ammo, being fit, knowing how to fight and teaching your kids the same is the best action you could take.  I think he has probably done as many of those things as he can, as many other people I know have done. 

   Climate terror is a tool to weaponize people's concerns, fears, and religious level belief in something they can not understand for themselves.   They need a priest to hand them the truth from up on high.   Those priests constantly shift the goal posts and meaning of whatever data they collect when their predictions do not come out the right way.    I would also say unless those western protestors start protesting in China and India they are not going to get any word to the people who matter about how belching toxic stuff into the atmosphere can be harmful (but changing the world climate...uncertain).  I guess pulling bullshit in countries where you wont get beaten half to death is more to their comfort tastes.

    Toss in some very profit motivated personalities all tied up in this climate furor...and it leads me back to institutions not being so trustworthy.  This leads to the problem I mentioned before if you lie all the time I start to never believe you even when you are telling the truth.  The data and narratives are breathless agenda driven reports to "change the public thinking" when most people have a barely 3 digit iq and just trust whatever gets fed to them....that becomes a problem when the folks doing the feeding do not have what is best for society as a whole as their goal.

   
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Scooter on October 10, 2023, 03:54:18 PM
I guess pulling bullshit in countries where you wont get beaten half to death is more to their comfort tastes.

Pulling that in the "country" of Florida will get you beaten half to death or more. 
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Garry G on October 10, 2023, 03:57:01 PM
  We do not need mad nonsense....however there is pretty much zero reason to trust any institution in the west these days other than a literal religious leap of faith.  That sort of bad track record has got people crawling down every rabbit hole one can imagine.  Maybe some are still worthy of trust....they have eroded their credibility so much though its created a whole lot of bad sentiment.  Not everyone is glomming onto everything...but only fools are going to take the official line on matters now.

There's every reason to question our institutions at length, that's a sign of a healthy democracy. I've been very uncomfortable with the last 13yrs of the UK government, especially since recently finding out that their initial austerity agenda was based on bad data. It's amazingly bad data in which 1950's New Zealand was an outlier that was treated as as the main dataset. Covid was a shitshow but it doesn't need to be a massive global conspiracy to be a shitshow, I'm generally pro-vaccine whilst also being aware that one of the early ones killed people with out a doubt and the Chinese lab thing is absolutely possible. Doubt of our very flawed institutions should be a thing.

I'm also very critical of outsider narratives that try to present stuff as some sort of over-arching globalist conspiracy. Events don't match up with that so more evidence is needed.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Garry G on October 10, 2023, 04:01:42 PM
most people have a barely 3 digit iq and just trust whatever gets fed to them
 

This is your problem, you don't think you are most people.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on October 10, 2023, 04:30:02 PM
most people have a barely 3 digit iq and just trust whatever gets fed to them
 

This is your problem, you don't think you are most people.

  I am not.  That is probably the real problem. 
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Scooter on October 10, 2023, 04:37:49 PM
most people have a barely 3 digit iq and just trust whatever gets fed to them
 

This is your problem, you don't think you are most people.

Yes, "most people" didn't know that the UK gov't was imprisoning THOUSANDS of subjects over laws that criminalize upsetting another person via online posts.  Those "most people" could not have IQ's >100
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on October 10, 2023, 04:50:11 PM
  I think he took me saying 100 was most people as some sort of dig, last I checked stats and demographics that is about the average IQ in most western nations (well I think germany is 108 or some such) and thus is most people. 
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Scooter on October 10, 2023, 05:24:16 PM
  I think he took me saying 100 was most people as some sort of dig, last I checked stats and demographics that is about the average IQ in most western nations (well I think germany is 108 or some such) and thus is most people.

Germany's is the same as most other Western EU derived people which is tops except for Japan & China which is a bit higher.  By definition 100 is dead center human average on the bell curve. 
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on October 12, 2023, 08:04:44 AM
I know, you're a wild eyed loner standing at the gates of Oblivion on the last freedom moped out of Nowhere city and you haven't even told your parents that what time you'll be back.

Given that there's no nuance, no possibility that anything you declare as obvious fact can be wrong, what's you're next step? I see people taking action over stuff like the climate crisis. I know you disagree with them but what you're presenting is clearly just as much of an existential threat so what are you doing? You're clearly not trying to convince people who disagree.

The climate twats have the tacit support of the establishment, which is why they're allowed to carry on and are treated with kid gloves. They're also total hypocrites, which shows you how seriously they really take the "existential threat" since apparently they don't have to worry about their own carbon footprint. What with having to get away on holiday whenever it suits them. Like that stupid cow who disrupted George Osborne's (he's a cunt) wedding then jetted off to Thailand.

See the difference when people protested against lockdowns? Riot police and heavy-handed policing. Yet when BLM protested, they were handled gently. Whenever people are doing something the establishment approves of, they're left to carry on.

Why should I do anything to "convince people"? I'm not a leftard who believes collective action achieves anything. I gave up on wasting my breath on people who are invested in following the capricious and ever-changing narrative of the liars in power.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Garry G on October 14, 2023, 12:07:59 PM
  I think he took me saying 100 was most people as some sort of dig, last I checked stats and demographics that is about the average IQ in most western nations (well I think germany is 108 or some such) and thus is most people.

No, it's the normal nonsense of you implying you're smarter than most people and thus superior.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Garry G on October 14, 2023, 12:20:30 PM
I know, you're a wild eyed loner standing at the gates of Oblivion on the last freedom moped out of Nowhere city and you haven't even told your parents that what time you'll be back.

Given that there's no nuance, no possibility that anything you declare as obvious fact can be wrong, what's you're next step? I see people taking action over stuff like the climate crisis. I know you disagree with them but what you're presenting is clearly just as much of an existential threat so what are you doing? You're clearly not trying to convince people who disagree.

The climate twats have the tacit support of the establishment, which is why they're allowed to carry on and are treated with kid gloves. They're also total hypocrites, which shows you how seriously they really take the "existential threat" since apparently they don't have to worry about their own carbon footprint. What with having to get away on holiday whenever it suits them. Like that stupid cow who disrupted George Osborne's (he's a cunt) wedding then jetted off to Thailand.

See the difference when people protested against lockdowns? Riot police and heavy-handed policing. Yet when BLM protested, they were handled gently. Whenever people are doing something the establishment approves of, they're left to carry on.

Why should I do anything to "convince people"? I'm not a leftard who believes collective action achieves anything. I gave up on wasting my breath on people who are invested in following the capricious and ever-changing narrative of the liars in power.

There you go. You're part of the problem, not any problem that is real in my eyes but part of all the problems that you witter about. You bitch on t'internet about stuff you think is believe is going to lead to a hellish dystopia but do nothing about it. I'm fairly certain you barely mention it in real life.

You've dropped out of doing any action and think that blethering shite on an obscure forum about an obscure hobby makes you in any way meaningful. Dropping out of everything makes sure that you'll never have any effect on anything. You're the ultimate sheeple, completely unable to affect the world around you. I honestly thought better of you, I remember when you wanted to stand as a candidate for your local council.

I don't believe in your frankly nuts conspiracy theories but if I did I'd do my best to fight against what they plan. This is quite sad.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on October 15, 2023, 03:56:23 PM
  I think he took me saying 100 was most people as some sort of dig, last I checked stats and demographics that is about the average IQ in most western nations (well I think germany is 108 or some such) and thus is most people.

No, it's the normal nonsense of you implying you're smarter than most people and thus superior.

      What if I am, mentally and physically superior to most people?    Its not much of a brag in the USA where I think the IQ average is just under 100 and most of the population is in horrible physical shape.   But it can in fact be true and not be anything to be proud of at the same time. 
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on October 17, 2023, 04:58:08 AM
There you go. You're part of the problem, not any problem that is real in my eyes but part of all the problems that you witter about. You bitch on t'internet about stuff you think is believe is going to lead to a hellish dystopia but do nothing about it. I'm fairly certain you barely mention it in real life.

You've dropped out of doing any action and think that blethering shite on an obscure forum about an obscure hobby makes you in any way meaningful. Dropping out of everything makes sure that you'll never have any effect on anything. You're the ultimate sheeple, completely unable to affect the world around you. I honestly thought better of you, I remember when you wanted to stand as a candidate for your local council.

I don't believe in your frankly nuts conspiracy theories but if I did I'd do my best to fight against what they plan. This is quite sad.

You're a lefty with approved opinions on the matters of the day. You don't have a clue what it's like being counter to that. And no, not since Brexit have I been publicly vocal about my opinions on anything; cancel culture most definitely exists and I have children to support. This is an obscure and relatively private place to vent under partial anonymity, thus risks little.

I'm never going to have an effect on anything beyond my own life and that of my kids. I was naive enough to think politics was a route to change once, I've since got wiser. No one who isn't a pliant tool of the powerful ever gets anywhere in that field. I wouldn't have been allowed anywhere near the levers of power with my views on the world.

Sheeple are the people blithely going along with the bullshit and doing as they're told. I'm not jabbed, nor are my kids. Unlike their school friends, they haven't had an unknown agent introduced into their bodies with unknown longer term effects.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on October 17, 2023, 09:51:44 AM
  I saw a guy say something once to the effect of he did not care to wake up the sheep he was only there to wake up the lions.  Powers that be do not fear waking up the sheep...they are concerned the lions might wake up.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Scooter on October 17, 2023, 09:56:34 AM
  I saw a guy say something once to the effect of he did not care to wake up the sheep he was only there to wake up the lions.  Powers that be do not fear waking up the sheep...they are concerned the lions might wake up.

Sheep are HIGHLY unlikely to wake before their head is laid on the block and the axe is accelerating downwards...
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Exploderwizard on October 17, 2023, 12:12:33 PM

Sheep are HIGHLY unlikely to wake before their head is laid on the block and the axe is accelerating downwards...

Which is what we see happening at a rapidly increasing pace. The last one to know that they are in a war, will surely lose it.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Garry G on October 17, 2023, 03:36:26 PM
There you go. You're part of the problem, not any problem that is real in my eyes but part of all the problems that you witter about. You bitch on t'internet about stuff you think is believe is going to lead to a hellish dystopia but do nothing about it. I'm fairly certain you barely mention it in real life.

You've dropped out of doing any action and think that blethering shite on an obscure forum about an obscure hobby makes you in any way meaningful. Dropping out of everything makes sure that you'll never have any effect on anything. You're the ultimate sheeple, completely unable to affect the world around you. I honestly thought better of you, I remember when you wanted to stand as a candidate for your local council.

I don't believe in your frankly nuts conspiracy theories but if I did I'd do my best to fight against what they plan. This is quite sad.

Quite sad

You're a lefty with approved opinions on the matters of the day. You don't have a clue what it's like being counter to that. And no, not since Brexit have I been publicly vocal about my opinions on anything; cancel culture most definitely exists and I have children to support. This is an obscure and relatively private place to vent under partial anonymity, thus risks little.

I'm never going to have an effect on anything beyond my own life and that of my kids. I was naive enough to think politics was a route to change once, I've since got wiser. No one who isn't a pliant tool of the powerful ever gets anywhere in that field. I wouldn't have been allowed anywhere near the levers of power with my views on the world.

Sheeple are the people blithely going along with the bullshit and doing as they're told. I'm not jabbed, nor are my kids. Unlike their school friends, they haven't had an unknown agent introduced into their bodies with unknown longer term effects.

As I said, quite sad.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on October 20, 2023, 06:14:21 AM
As I said, quite sad.

Not really. I'm adapted to the reality of the world in which we live.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Garry G on October 20, 2023, 03:43:38 PM
As I said, quite sad.

Not really. I'm adapted to the reality of the world in which we live.

If you're right you're willing to  bequeath your children a life of slavery under some sort of worldwide dystopia government because you're scared of cancel culture. You're doing it with your eyes wide Open. You are knowingly collaborating in the process.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ratman_tf on November 13, 2023, 06:45:26 PM
Let the lawsuits commence!

Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Garry G on November 14, 2023, 04:44:02 PM
I totally support these cases. There have been deaths attributed to the AZ vaccine, you don't need to go to beyond the MSM to see that.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-65321937 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-65321937)
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Exploderwizard on November 15, 2023, 07:26:48 AM
I totally support these cases. There have been deaths attributed to the AZ vaccine, you don't need to go to beyond the MSM to see that.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-65321937 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-65321937)

Wait until all the miscarriages and failed pregnancies really start to hit the birth rate. Who are we kidding though? Doctors will simply continue being baffled looking for a root cause.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on November 20, 2023, 07:46:35 AM

If you're right you're willing to  bequeath your children a life of slavery under some sort of worldwide dystopia government because you're scared of cancel culture. You're doing it with your eyes wide Open. You are knowingly collaborating in the process.

Yeah, because my children's lives would be markedly improved if their father was unemployed or in prison (the last is coming, when the Online Harms Bill finishes it's journey through Parliament).

I protect them by ensuring they can see through the lies for themselves and are prepared for the world that's coming.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Exploderwizard on November 20, 2023, 01:44:23 PM

If you're right you're willing to  bequeath your children a life of slavery under some sort of worldwide dystopia government because you're scared of cancel culture. You're doing it with your eyes wide Open. You are knowingly collaborating in the process.

Yeah, because my children's lives would be markedly improved if their father was unemployed or in prison (the last is coming, when the Online Harms Bill finishes it's journey through Parliament).

I protect them by ensuring they can see through the lies for themselves and are prepared for the world that's coming.

The world that is coming is only doing so because we are as of yet too comfortable to do anything about it. A day will come when that changes. I just hope it isn't too late.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Garry G on November 22, 2023, 12:59:03 PM

If you're right you're willing to  bequeath your children a life of slavery under some sort of worldwide dystopia government because you're scared of cancel culture. You're doing it with your eyes wide Open. You are knowingly collaborating in the process.

Yeah, because my children's lives would be markedly improved if their father was unemployed or in prison (the last is coming, when the Online Harms Bill finishes it's journey through Parliament).

I protect them by ensuring they can see through the lies for themselves and are prepared for the world that's coming.

Preparing for the world that you're letting happen. Nothing you say here changes anything.

Luckily most of your beliefs are a piece of nonsense.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Garry G on November 27, 2023, 03:45:36 PM
I've been thinking about this and I couldn't live with myself if I hadn't brought my children up to challenge injustice they see. I don't see how giving an example of just keeping your head down is a good thing.

OTOH I try not to judge other peoples parental decisions, frankly managing to keep kids alive and emotionally safe is hard work.

IDK do you think that giving an example of bowing to an oppressive system is a good thing. I'm a bit leery but that guy who stood in front of the tank in Tianeman Square probably didn't have a good end. Mibbee it's better to show our bairns that they should do what they're telt.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Exploderwizard on November 27, 2023, 06:57:22 PM
I've been thinking about this and I couldn't live with myself if I hadn't brought my children up to challenge injustice they see. I don't see how giving an example of just keeping your head down is a good thing.

OTOH I try not to judge other peoples parental decisions, frankly managing to keep kids alive and emotionally safe is hard work.

IDK do you think that giving an example of bowing to an oppressive system is a good thing. I'm a bit leery but that guy who stood in front of the tank in Tianeman Square probably didn't have a good end. Mibbee it's better to show our bairns that they should do what they're telt.

An important survival skill is knowing when to stand fast and when to fight.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on November 27, 2023, 07:16:16 PM
I've been thinking about this and I couldn't live with myself if I hadn't brought my children up to challenge injustice they see. I don't see how giving an example of just keeping your head down is a good thing.

OTOH I try not to judge other peoples parental decisions, frankly managing to keep kids alive and emotionally safe is hard work.

IDK do you think that giving an example of bowing to an oppressive system is a good thing. I'm a bit leery but that guy who stood in front of the tank in Tianeman Square probably didn't have a good end. Mibbee it's better to show our bairns that they should do what they're telt.

  From what I have seen of your commentary you seem to just go along with whatever the government feeds you or stand strong against "injustice" in the form of whatever institutions have told you to stand strong against.   I hate to be the one to tell you this, but if you are standing with all the corporations, institutions, and government...it is not brave or anything worth talking about.  If you have raised your kids to challenge injustice and not taught them how to fight...I wonder what sort of masturbatory exercise you are undertaking here. 
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: GamerSince77 on November 27, 2023, 10:40:32 PM
From what I have seen of your commentary you seem to just go along with whatever the government feeds you or stand strong against "injustice" in the form of whatever institutions have told you to stand strong against.   I hate to be the one to tell you this, but if you are standing with all the corporations, institutions, and government...it is not brave or anything worth talking about.  If you have raised your kids to challenge injustice and not taught them how to fight...I wonder what sort of masturbatory exercise you are undertaking here.

From what I’ve seen, Oggy, it seems like you don’t think at all. You just automatically reject anything reported in the MSM. If you only trust what the “alternative media” pushes, that makes you a reactionary, not a rebel. Try thinking for yourself rather than regurgitating Alex Jones-style talking points.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on November 28, 2023, 06:47:10 AM
I've been thinking about this and I couldn't live with myself if I hadn't brought my children up to challenge injustice they see. I don't see how giving an example of just keeping your head down is a good thing.

OTOH I try not to judge other peoples parental decisions, frankly managing to keep kids alive and emotionally safe is hard work.

IDK do you think that giving an example of bowing to an oppressive system is a good thing. I'm a bit leery but that guy who stood in front of the tank in Tianeman Square probably didn't have a good end. Mibbee it's better to show our bairns that they should do what they're telt.

It's real easy to "stand up for your beliefs" when they're endorsed by the establishment and don't carry any threat of imprisonment for expressing them.

Meanwhile, Ireland is apparently the test bed for the next level of censorship and oppression. Don't deal with the problems caused by the huge levels of migration they've endured, just lock up anyone who notices them.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Exploderwizard on November 28, 2023, 07:13:58 AM
From what I have seen of your commentary you seem to just go along with whatever the government feeds you or stand strong against "injustice" in the form of whatever institutions have told you to stand strong against.   I hate to be the one to tell you this, but if you are standing with all the corporations, institutions, and government...it is not brave or anything worth talking about.  If you have raised your kids to challenge injustice and not taught them how to fight...I wonder what sort of masturbatory exercise you are undertaking here.

From what I’ve seen, Oggy, it seems like you don’t think at all. You just automatically reject anything reported in the MSM. If you only trust what the “alternative media” pushes, that makes you a reactionary, not a rebel. Try thinking for yourself rather than regurgitating Alex Jones-style talking points.

Well in fairness, when the difference between a conspiracy theory and truth ends up being about six months to a couple years, one either starts catching on or not.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Chris24601 on November 28, 2023, 08:43:06 AM
From what I have seen of your commentary you seem to just go along with whatever the government feeds you or stand strong against "injustice" in the form of whatever institutions have told you to stand strong against.   I hate to be the one to tell you this, but if you are standing with all the corporations, institutions, and government...it is not brave or anything worth talking about.  If you have raised your kids to challenge injustice and not taught them how to fight...I wonder what sort of masturbatory exercise you are undertaking here.

From what I’ve seen, Oggy, it seems like you don’t think at all. You just automatically reject anything reported in the MSM. If you only trust what the “alternative media” pushes, that makes you a reactionary, not a rebel. Try thinking for yourself rather than regurgitating Alex Jones-style talking points.

Well in fairness, when the difference between a conspiracy theory and truth ends up being about six months to a couple years, one either starts catching on or not.
The entire concept of “conspiracy theory” as something to be scoffed at was actually cooked up by the CIA to try belittle people’s claims that JFK had been assassinated by the CIA. Today we’ve got pretty solid evidence the CIA did have JFK assassinated.

i.e. Conspiracy theories are just facts those in power don’t want people to pay attention to.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: GeekyBugle on November 28, 2023, 11:59:50 AM
From what I have seen of your commentary you seem to just go along with whatever the government feeds you or stand strong against "injustice" in the form of whatever institutions have told you to stand strong against.   I hate to be the one to tell you this, but if you are standing with all the corporations, institutions, and government...it is not brave or anything worth talking about.  If you have raised your kids to challenge injustice and not taught them how to fight...I wonder what sort of masturbatory exercise you are undertaking here.

From what I’ve seen, Oggy, it seems like you don’t think at all. You just automatically reject anything reported in the MSM. If you only trust what the “alternative media” pushes, that makes you a reactionary, not a rebel. Try thinking for yourself rather than regurgitating Alex Jones-style talking points.

LOL, so a "reactionary" is someone who is against the mainstream, the establishment and the status quo? Meanwhile the rebel is in support of all of those?

FFS get a clue, we could even lend you some money so you can buy one, but I fear your brain is useless from all that koolaid you've been guzling by the galons.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Garry G on November 28, 2023, 04:03:11 PM
I've been thinking about this and I couldn't live with myself if I hadn't brought my children up to challenge injustice they see. I don't see how giving an example of just keeping your head down is a good thing.

OTOH I try not to judge other peoples parental decisions, frankly managing to keep kids alive and emotionally safe is hard work.

IDK do you think that giving an example of bowing to an oppressive system is a good thing. I'm a bit leery but that guy who stood in front of the tank in Tianeman Square probably didn't have a good end. Mibbee it's better to show our bairns that they should do what they're telt.

It's real easy to "stand up for your beliefs" when they're endorsed by the establishment and don't carry any threat of imprisonment for expressing them.

Meanwhile, Ireland is apparently the test bed for the next level of censorship and oppression. Don't deal with the problems caused by the huge levels of migration they've endured, just lock up anyone who notices them.

It's easier still to not stand up to anything and just accept things you know are wrong. Go somewhere where nobody can identify you and whine a bit about it but in the end accept what you're given like a good sheeple.

I'm not judging your parenting decisions really. It is hard, I'm just pointing out what you're telling them. I personally could never tell my bairns just to do what they're telt and bow down to any government, I want them to do what they feel right. Nice use of the Scots BTW.

Ireland seems to me to be the next test bed of far right nuttery exploding in a quite frankly horrible way.

Speak up for yourself. You're absolutely not going to be the Tianeman Square guy believe me. Try to accept that I'm not here as some sort of schill for some worldwide governmental conspiracy, I'm just a bloke who looks at the chaos of the last 13 years of UK government and finds the idea of anything being planned to be laughable. Work on convincing me and the other sheeple, you can do it gently if you're that scared of the stasi turning up at your door.

Just be aware that you look like a weird alt-right conspiracy theorist who can't draw the lines between his beliefs and reality. Actually that's a good poit, learn how to explain yourself better because that's how you look.

As it stands I hold to what I've said before. You're feart, pick up on that it's a good Scots word, and you look like you're just passing it on. Nothing you believe matters because you'll just let the oncoming dystopia you believe in happen because of that. That makes you worse than anybody you describe as sheeple.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Garry G on November 28, 2023, 04:09:25 PM
I've been thinking about this and I couldn't live with myself if I hadn't brought my children up to challenge injustice they see. I don't see how giving an example of just keeping your head down is a good thing.

OTOH I try not to judge other peoples parental decisions, frankly managing to keep kids alive and emotionally safe is hard work.

IDK do you think that giving an example of bowing to an oppressive system is a good thing. I'm a bit leery but that guy who stood in front of the tank in Tianeman Square probably didn't have a good end. Mibbee it's better to show our bairns that they should do what they're telt.

  From what I have seen of your commentary you seem to just go along with whatever the government feeds you or stand strong against "injustice" in the form of whatever institutions have told you to stand strong against.   I hate to be the one to tell you this, but if you are standing with all the corporations, institutions, and government...it is not brave or anything worth talking about.  If you have raised your kids to challenge injustice and not taught them how to fight...I wonder what sort of masturbatory exercise you are undertaking here.

A quite complicated one it seems.

I fucking hate the current UK government with quite a passion. They're a bunch of incompetent, privileged arseholes who are driving my country into the ground. How dare you accuse me of believing a word they say.

So now we've got that short wank out of the way. You're doing that awful binary thing again where it's all you're completes nuts conspiracy or we all bow to our overlords. There's a real world out there with real people who approach politics with a tiny bit of nuance. Not much for many of them but at least a bit.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on November 29, 2023, 11:02:25 AM
From what I have seen of your commentary you seem to just go along with whatever the government feeds you or stand strong against "injustice" in the form of whatever institutions have told you to stand strong against.   I hate to be the one to tell you this, but if you are standing with all the corporations, institutions, and government...it is not brave or anything worth talking about.  If you have raised your kids to challenge injustice and not taught them how to fight...I wonder what sort of masturbatory exercise you are undertaking here.

From what I’ve seen, Oggy, it seems like you don’t think at all. You just automatically reject anything reported in the MSM. If you only trust what the “alternative media” pushes, that makes you a reactionary, not a rebel. Try thinking for yourself rather than regurgitating Alex Jones-style talking points.

  I do not really worry about labels or opinions from my enemies.  I also think if you are late for your booster you need to get up to date immediately since you must feel those shots were needed.  Good luck.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on November 29, 2023, 11:05:57 AM
I've been thinking about this and I couldn't live with myself if I hadn't brought my children up to challenge injustice they see. I don't see how giving an example of just keeping your head down is a good thing.

OTOH I try not to judge other peoples parental decisions, frankly managing to keep kids alive and emotionally safe is hard work.

IDK do you think that giving an example of bowing to an oppressive system is a good thing. I'm a bit leery but that guy who stood in front of the tank in Tianeman Square probably didn't have a good end. Mibbee it's better to show our bairns that they should do what they're telt.

  From what I have seen of your commentary you seem to just go along with whatever the government feeds you or stand strong against "injustice" in the form of whatever institutions have told you to stand strong against.   I hate to be the one to tell you this, but if you are standing with all the corporations, institutions, and government...it is not brave or anything worth talking about.  If you have raised your kids to challenge injustice and not taught them how to fight...I wonder what sort of masturbatory exercise you are undertaking here.

A quite complicated one it seems.

I fucking hate the current UK government with quite a passion. They're a bunch of incompetent, privileged arseholes who are driving my country into the ground. How dare you accuse me of believing a word they say.

So now we've got that short wank out of the way. You're doing that awful binary thing again where it's all you're completes nuts conspiracy or we all bow to our overlords. There's a real world out there with real people who approach politics with a tiny bit of nuance. Not much for many of them but at least a bit.

  So by your own concerns and standards about standing up to injustice and getting out there and fighting you are a hypocrite coward?   Do you not see how retarded these things look together?  You berate a dude who has concerns he might be getting lied to (which honestly looks more like concern trolling/fed posting) for not getting out there and "fighting" while you sit around now tossing out nuance.  Come on...if you are going to be  a troll be a good one.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Garry G on November 29, 2023, 03:45:28 PM
I've been thinking about this and I couldn't live with myself if I hadn't brought my children up to challenge injustice they see. I don't see how giving an example of just keeping your head down is a good thing.

OTOH I try not to judge other peoples parental decisions, frankly managing to keep kids alive and emotionally safe is hard work.

IDK do you think that giving an example of bowing to an oppressive system is a good thing. I'm a bit leery but that guy who stood in front of the tank in Tianeman Square probably didn't have a good end. Mibbee it's better to show our bairns that they should do what they're telt.

  From what I have seen of your commentary you seem to just go along with whatever the government feeds you or stand strong against "injustice" in the form of whatever institutions have told you to stand strong against.   I hate to be the one to tell you this, but if you are standing with all the corporations, institutions, and government...it is not brave or anything worth talking about.  If you have raised your kids to challenge injustice and not taught them how to fight...I wonder what sort of masturbatory exercise you are undertaking here.

A quite complicated one it seems.

I fucking hate the current UK government with quite a passion. They're a bunch of incompetent, privileged arseholes who are driving my country into the ground. How dare you accuse me of believing a word they say.

So now we've got that short wank out of the way. You're doing that awful binary thing again where it's all you're completes nuts conspiracy or we all bow to our overlords. There's a real world out there with real people who approach politics with a tiny bit of nuance. Not much for many of them but at least a bit.

  So by your own concerns and standards about standing up to injustice and getting out there and fighting you are a hypocrite coward?   Do you not see how retarded these things look together?  You berate a dude who has concerns he might be getting lied to (which honestly looks more like concern trolling/fed posting) for not getting out there and "fighting" while you sit around now tossing out nuance.  Come on...if you are going to be  a troll be a good one.

I'm having a bit of trouble trying to parse this whole thing. To be more proactive than Keiro when it comes to politics I literally only have to mention my opinions in real life. That's it, nothing else. Give me a lower bar to ask somebody to do when they fear that there's going to be an oppressive worldwide government. He's stated that he only talks about it here because he's scared of saying it to anybody IRL.

I don't get the trolling thing unless being challenging is trolling. I just asked what he was doing  to try to fix it. I know I don't do enough but I value my time when I have marched, my union work and challenging people in real life. I clearly don't agree with what I see as frankly insane ideas that you and Kiero hold but I'd thought there might be some real life engagement.

Your whole accusation is just weird.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on November 29, 2023, 07:13:17 PM
I've been thinking about this and I couldn't live with myself if I hadn't brought my children up to challenge injustice they see. I don't see how giving an example of just keeping your head down is a good thing.

OTOH I try not to judge other peoples parental decisions, frankly managing to keep kids alive and emotionally safe is hard work.

IDK do you think that giving an example of bowing to an oppressive system is a good thing. I'm a bit leery but that guy who stood in front of the tank in Tianeman Square probably didn't have a good end. Mibbee it's better to show our bairns that they should do what they're telt.

  From what I have seen of your commentary you seem to just go along with whatever the government feeds you or stand strong against "injustice" in the form of whatever institutions have told you to stand strong against.   I hate to be the one to tell you this, but if you are standing with all the corporations, institutions, and government...it is not brave or anything worth talking about.  If you have raised your kids to challenge injustice and not taught them how to fight...I wonder what sort of masturbatory exercise you are undertaking here.

A quite complicated one it seems.

I fucking hate the current UK government with quite a passion. They're a bunch of incompetent, privileged arseholes who are driving my country into the ground. How dare you accuse me of believing a word they say.

So now we've got that short wank out of the way. You're doing that awful binary thing again where it's all you're completes nuts conspiracy or we all bow to our overlords. There's a real world out there with real people who approach politics with a tiny bit of nuance. Not much for many of them but at least a bit.

  So by your own concerns and standards about standing up to injustice and getting out there and fighting you are a hypocrite coward?   Do you not see how retarded these things look together?  You berate a dude who has concerns he might be getting lied to (which honestly looks more like concern trolling/fed posting) for not getting out there and "fighting" while you sit around now tossing out nuance.  Come on...if you are going to be  a troll be a good one.

I'm having a bit of trouble trying to parse this whole thing. To be more proactive than Keiro when it comes to politics I literally only have to mention my opinions in real life. That's it, nothing else. Give me a lower bar to ask somebody to do when they fear that there's going to be an oppressive worldwide government. He's stated that he only talks about it here because he's scared of saying it to anybody IRL.

I don't get the trolling thing unless being challenging is trolling. I just asked what he was doing  to try to fix it. I know I don't do enough but I value my time when I have marched, my union work and challenging people in real life. I clearly don't agree with what I see as frankly insane ideas that you and Kiero hold but I'd thought there might be some real life engagement.

Your whole accusation is just weird.

  Point out an insane idea I have put out here.... as for Kiero...You can get locked up in the UK for talking too much about, well anything the government decides can be "hateful" can you not?   It seems you do all the things that carry zero risk/are on the side with no risk.  So it seemed strange to me you criticize him for not getting out there and making his position known loud and clear on the streets when your protests probably carry government and corporate sponsorship.  I am in the USA... and have no problems with some real life engagement...but we still do not get locked up (just yet) for saying something someone characterized as "mean" on the internet.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Garry G on November 30, 2023, 03:42:30 PM
I've been thinking about this and I couldn't live with myself if I hadn't brought my children up to challenge injustice they see. I don't see how giving an example of just keeping your head down is a good thing.

OTOH I try not to judge other peoples parental decisions, frankly managing to keep kids alive and emotionally safe is hard work.

IDK do you think that giving an example of bowing to an oppressive system is a good thing. I'm a bit leery but that guy who stood in front of the tank in Tianeman Square probably didn't have a good end. Mibbee it's better to show our bairns that they should do what they're telt.

  From what I have seen of your commentary you seem to just go along with whatever the government feeds you or stand strong against "injustice" in the form of whatever institutions have told you to stand strong against.   I hate to be the one to tell you this, but if you are standing with all the corporations, institutions, and government...it is not brave or anything worth talking about.  If you have raised your kids to challenge injustice and not taught them how to fight...I wonder what sort of masturbatory exercise you are undertaking here.

A quite complicated one it seems.

I fucking hate the current UK government with quite a passion. They're a bunch of incompetent, privileged arseholes who are driving my country into the ground. How dare you accuse me of believing a word they say.

So now we've got that short wank out of the way. You're doing that awful binary thing again where it's all you're completes nuts conspiracy or we all bow to our overlords. There's a real world out there with real people who approach politics with a tiny bit of nuance. Not much for many of them but at least a bit.

  So by your own concerns and standards about standing up to injustice and getting out there and fighting you are a hypocrite coward?   Do you not see how retarded these things look together?  You berate a dude who has concerns he might be getting lied to (which honestly looks more like concern trolling/fed posting) for not getting out there and "fighting" while you sit around now tossing out nuance.  Come on...if you are going to be  a troll be a good one.

I'm having a bit of trouble trying to parse this whole thing. To be more proactive than Keiro when it comes to politics I literally only have to mention my opinions in real life. That's it, nothing else. Give me a lower bar to ask somebody to do when they fear that there's going to be an oppressive worldwide government. He's stated that he only talks about it here because he's scared of saying it to anybody IRL.

I don't get the trolling thing unless being challenging is trolling. I just asked what he was doing  to try to fix it. I know I don't do enough but I value my time when I have marched, my union work and challenging people in real life. I clearly don't agree with what I see as frankly insane ideas that you and Kiero hold but I'd thought there might be some real life engagement.

Your whole accusation is just weird.

  Point out an insane idea I have put out here.... as for Kiero...You can get locked up in the UK for talking too much about, well anything the government decides can be "hateful" can you not?   It seems you do all the things that carry zero risk/are on the side with no risk.  So it seemed strange to me you criticize him for not getting out there and making his position known loud and clear on the streets when your protests probably carry government and corporate sponsorship.  I am in the USA... and have no problems with some real life engagement...but we still do not get locked up (just yet) for saying something someone characterized as "mean" on the internet.

This post is full of insane ideas, thanks for not forcing me to look at anything else. I've really not been on a corporate sponsored protest in my life, I'm not even sure what that would entail. I did once try the Coca-Cola vs Pepsi taste test, would that count.

Kiero argues he can't even discuss his positions with people he knows because he'll have the same fate as Tianeman Square man. I'm sure you think he'd be taking an extreme risk by saying something over coffee but that's an insane idea.

As I said upthread we're not even getting to t'internet here.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on December 01, 2023, 05:50:42 AM
Gaz, my boy, you operate under the misapprehension that I could give a flying fuck what you or anyone else thinks about how my views come across. The fact that you use the bullshit phrase "alt-right" unironically tells me much.

Even moreso that you think the current government is any different from what we've had since 1997, because Continuity Blairism has been the only thing on offer for almost three decades now. If we take a step back still further, the only departure from the globalist hegemony we've had since paedo Wilson rigged the referendum to stay in the EC was Thatcher's government. And it's telling that she was defenestrated the moment she questioned the EEC as was.

If I shared some of the things I've said here on Twatter, I'd get banned. Possibly even have a visit from the police, if the right wokist arsehole reported it. Have you forgotten when Count Dankula (who lives in your country) got his collar felt for the "crime" of making fun of Grenfell residents? Crass and offensive, sure, but there used to be a time when hurting people's feelings wasn't against the law.

I'm looking forward to the reverse ferreting you're going to have to do over the jabs when they finally admit how much harm they've done to people (but don't worry, you can't sue anyone because the manufacturers are immune - the only people who are).
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on December 01, 2023, 09:27:30 AM
I've been thinking about this and I couldn't live with myself if I hadn't brought my children up to challenge injustice they see. I don't see how giving an example of just keeping your head down is a good thing.

OTOH I try not to judge other peoples parental decisions, frankly managing to keep kids alive and emotionally safe is hard work.

IDK do you think that giving an example of bowing to an oppressive system is a good thing. I'm a bit leery but that guy who stood in front of the tank in Tianeman Square probably didn't have a good end. Mibbee it's better to show our bairns that they should do what they're telt.

  From what I have seen of your commentary you seem to just go along with whatever the government feeds you or stand strong against "injustice" in the form of whatever institutions have told you to stand strong against.   I hate to be the one to tell you this, but if you are standing with all the corporations, institutions, and government...it is not brave or anything worth talking about.  If you have raised your kids to challenge injustice and not taught them how to fight...I wonder what sort of masturbatory exercise you are undertaking here.

A quite complicated one it seems.

I fucking hate the current UK government with quite a passion. They're a bunch of incompetent, privileged arseholes who are driving my country into the ground. How dare you accuse me of believing a word they say.

So now we've got that short wank out of the way. You're doing that awful binary thing again where it's all you're completes nuts conspiracy or we all bow to our overlords. There's a real world out there with real people who approach politics with a tiny bit of nuance. Not much for many of them but at least a bit.

  So by your own concerns and standards about standing up to injustice and getting out there and fighting you are a hypocrite coward?   Do you not see how retarded these things look together?  You berate a dude who has concerns he might be getting lied to (which honestly looks more like concern trolling/fed posting) for not getting out there and "fighting" while you sit around now tossing out nuance.  Come on...if you are going to be  a troll be a good one.

I'm having a bit of trouble trying to parse this whole thing. To be more proactive than Keiro when it comes to politics I literally only have to mention my opinions in real life. That's it, nothing else. Give me a lower bar to ask somebody to do when they fear that there's going to be an oppressive worldwide government. He's stated that he only talks about it here because he's scared of saying it to anybody IRL.

I don't get the trolling thing unless being challenging is trolling. I just asked what he was doing  to try to fix it. I know I don't do enough but I value my time when I have marched, my union work and challenging people in real life. I clearly don't agree with what I see as frankly insane ideas that you and Kiero hold but I'd thought there might be some real life engagement.

Your whole accusation is just weird.

  Point out an insane idea I have put out here.... as for Kiero...You can get locked up in the UK for talking too much about, well anything the government decides can be "hateful" can you not?   It seems you do all the things that carry zero risk/are on the side with no risk.  So it seemed strange to me you criticize him for not getting out there and making his position known loud and clear on the streets when your protests probably carry government and corporate sponsorship.  I am in the USA... and have no problems with some real life engagement...but we still do not get locked up (just yet) for saying something someone characterized as "mean" on the internet.

This post is full of insane ideas, thanks for not forcing me to look at anything else. I've really not been on a corporate sponsored protest in my life, I'm not even sure what that would entail. I did once try the Coca-Cola vs Pepsi taste test, would that count.

Kiero argues he can't even discuss his positions with people he knows because he'll have the same fate as Tianeman Square man. I'm sure you think he'd be taking an extreme risk by saying something over coffee but that's an insane idea.

As I said upthread we're not even getting to t'internet here.

  So no examples?  I have a feeling anything you disagree with is "insane".   A bit of a narcissistic view of the world...but not anything surprising from your ilk.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Garry G on December 01, 2023, 04:07:33 PM
Gaz, my boy, you operate under the misapprehension that I could give a flying fuck what you or anyone else thinks about how my views come across. The fact that you use the bullshit phrase "alt-right" unironically tells me much.

Even moreso that you think the current government is any different from what we've had since 1997, because Continuity Blairism has been the only thing on offer for almost three decades now. If we take a step back still further, the only departure from the globalist hegemony we've had since paedo Wilson rigged the referendum to stay in the EC was Thatcher's government. And it's telling that she was defenestrated the moment she questioned the EEC as was.

If I shared some of the things I've said here on Twatter, I'd get banned. Possibly even have a visit from the police, if the right wokist arsehole reported it. Have you forgotten when Count Dankula (who lives in your country) got his collar felt for the "crime" of making fun of Grenfell residents? Crass and offensive, sure, but there used to be a time when hurting people's feelings wasn't against the law.

I'm looking forward to the reverse ferreting you're going to have to do over the jabs when they finally admit how much harm they've done to people (but don't worry, you can't sue anyone because the manufacturers are immune - the only people who are).

You know I actually have no answer to this. You win through the sheer power of your nuttery, there's no conversation to have with you and you'll only really converse with people who share your weird views and so you're trapped in them. I'm not saying that I won't challenge them because I was brought up to challenge but I understand that you've gotten so far to the extreme that you don't care.

You don't have to care what I think but I still care about what you think. I believe you're better than this and can can get back to a reasonable position. I don't like what this does to you.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Garry G on December 01, 2023, 04:08:36 PM
I've been thinking about this and I couldn't live with myself if I hadn't brought my children up to challenge injustice they see. I don't see how giving an example of just keeping your head down is a good thing.

OTOH I try not to judge other peoples parental decisions, frankly managing to keep kids alive and emotionally safe is hard work.

IDK do you think that giving an example of bowing to an oppressive system is a good thing. I'm a bit leery but that guy who stood in front of the tank in Tianeman Square probably didn't have a good end. Mibbee it's better to show our bairns that they should do what they're telt.

  From what I have seen of your commentary you seem to just go along with whatever the government feeds you or stand strong against "injustice" in the form of whatever institutions have told you to stand strong against.   I hate to be the one to tell you this, but if you are standing with all the corporations, institutions, and government...it is not brave or anything worth talking about.  If you have raised your kids to challenge injustice and not taught them how to fight...I wonder what sort of masturbatory exercise you are undertaking here.

A quite complicated one it seems.

I fucking hate the current UK government with quite a passion. They're a bunch of incompetent, privileged arseholes who are driving my country into the ground. How dare you accuse me of believing a word they say.

So now we've got that short wank out of the way. You're doing that awful binary thing again where it's all you're completes nuts conspiracy or we all bow to our overlords. There's a real world out there with real people who approach politics with a tiny bit of nuance. Not much for many of them but at least a bit.

  So by your own concerns and standards about standing up to injustice and getting out there and fighting you are a hypocrite coward?   Do you not see how retarded these things look together?  You berate a dude who has concerns he might be getting lied to (which honestly looks more like concern trolling/fed posting) for not getting out there and "fighting" while you sit around now tossing out nuance.  Come on...if you are going to be  a troll be a good one.

I'm having a bit of trouble trying to parse this whole thing. To be more proactive than Keiro when it comes to politics I literally only have to mention my opinions in real life. That's it, nothing else. Give me a lower bar to ask somebody to do when they fear that there's going to be an oppressive worldwide government. He's stated that he only talks about it here because he's scared of saying it to anybody IRL.

I don't get the trolling thing unless being challenging is trolling. I just asked what he was doing  to try to fix it. I know I don't do enough but I value my time when I have marched, my union work and challenging people in real life. I clearly don't agree with what I see as frankly insane ideas that you and Kiero hold but I'd thought there might be some real life engagement.

Your whole accusation is just weird.

  Point out an insane idea I have put out here.... as for Kiero...You can get locked up in the UK for talking too much about, well anything the government decides can be "hateful" can you not?   It seems you do all the things that carry zero risk/are on the side with no risk.  So it seemed strange to me you criticize him for not getting out there and making his position known loud and clear on the streets when your protests probably carry government and corporate sponsorship.  I am in the USA... and have no problems with some real life engagement...but we still do not get locked up (just yet) for saying something someone characterized as "mean" on the internet.

This post is full of insane ideas, thanks for not forcing me to look at anything else. I've really not been on a corporate sponsored protest in my life, I'm not even sure what that would entail. I did once try the Coca-Cola vs Pepsi taste test, would that count.

Kiero argues he can't even discuss his positions with people he knows because he'll have the same fate as Tianeman Square man. I'm sure you think he'd be taking an extreme risk by saying something over coffee but that's an insane idea.

As I said upthread we're not even getting to t'internet here.

  So no examples?  I have a feeling anything you disagree with is "insane".   A bit of a narcissistic view of the world...but not anything surprising from your ilk.

I pointed out that your post was full of insane ideas, it's like in the thing I wrote.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on December 01, 2023, 04:34:54 PM
I've been thinking about this and I couldn't live with myself if I hadn't brought my children up to challenge injustice they see. I don't see how giving an example of just keeping your head down is a good thing.

OTOH I try not to judge other peoples parental decisions, frankly managing to keep kids alive and emotionally safe is hard work.

IDK do you think that giving an example of bowing to an oppressive system is a good thing. I'm a bit leery but that guy who stood in front of the tank in Tianeman Square probably didn't have a good end. Mibbee it's better to show our bairns that they should do what they're telt.

  From what I have seen of your commentary you seem to just go along with whatever the government feeds you or stand strong against "injustice" in the form of whatever institutions have told you to stand strong against.   I hate to be the one to tell you this, but if you are standing with all the corporations, institutions, and government...it is not brave or anything worth talking about.  If you have raised your kids to challenge injustice and not taught them how to fight...I wonder what sort of masturbatory exercise you are undertaking here.

A quite complicated one it seems.

I fucking hate the current UK government with quite a passion. They're a bunch of incompetent, privileged arseholes who are driving my country into the ground. How dare you accuse me of believing a word they say.

So now we've got that short wank out of the way. You're doing that awful binary thing again where it's all you're completes nuts conspiracy or we all bow to our overlords. There's a real world out there with real people who approach politics with a tiny bit of nuance. Not much for many of them but at least a bit.

  So by your own concerns and standards about standing up to injustice and getting out there and fighting you are a hypocrite coward?   Do you not see how retarded these things look together?  You berate a dude who has concerns he might be getting lied to (which honestly looks more like concern trolling/fed posting) for not getting out there and "fighting" while you sit around now tossing out nuance.  Come on...if you are going to be  a troll be a good one.

I'm having a bit of trouble trying to parse this whole thing. To be more proactive than Keiro when it comes to politics I literally only have to mention my opinions in real life. That's it, nothing else. Give me a lower bar to ask somebody to do when they fear that there's going to be an oppressive worldwide government. He's stated that he only talks about it here because he's scared of saying it to anybody IRL.

I don't get the trolling thing unless being challenging is trolling. I just asked what he was doing  to try to fix it. I know I don't do enough but I value my time when I have marched, my union work and challenging people in real life. I clearly don't agree with what I see as frankly insane ideas that you and Kiero hold but I'd thought there might be some real life engagement.

Your whole accusation is just weird.

  Point out an insane idea I have put out here.... as for Kiero...You can get locked up in the UK for talking too much about, well anything the government decides can be "hateful" can you not?   It seems you do all the things that carry zero risk/are on the side with no risk.  So it seemed strange to me you criticize him for not getting out there and making his position known loud and clear on the streets when your protests probably carry government and corporate sponsorship.  I am in the USA... and have no problems with some real life engagement...but we still do not get locked up (just yet) for saying something someone characterized as "mean" on the internet.

This post is full of insane ideas, thanks for not forcing me to look at anything else. I've really not been on a corporate sponsored protest in my life, I'm not even sure what that would entail. I did once try the Coca-Cola vs Pepsi taste test, would that count.

Kiero argues he can't even discuss his positions with people he knows because he'll have the same fate as Tianeman Square man. I'm sure you think he'd be taking an extreme risk by saying something over coffee but that's an insane idea.

As I said upthread we're not even getting to t'internet here.

  So no examples?  I have a feeling anything you disagree with is "insane".   A bit of a narcissistic view of the world...but not anything surprising from your ilk.

I pointed out that your post was full of insane ideas, it's like in the thing I wrote.

    I read what you wrote...if that meets your definition it explains a whole lot about you.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on December 01, 2023, 05:57:00 PM
You know I actually have no answer to this. You win through the sheer power of your nuttery, there's no conversation to have with you and you'll only really converse with people who share your weird views and so you're trapped in them. I'm not saying that I won't challenge them because I was brought up to challenge but I understand that you've gotten so far to the extreme that you don't care.

You don't have to care what I think but I still care about what you think. I believe you're better than this and can can get back to a reasonable position. I don't like what this does to you.

There is no "reasonable position" to be had when the world is controlled by evil fuckers who are enabled by their tame media who lie to us constantly.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Exploderwizard on December 02, 2023, 11:24:31 AM
You know I actually have no answer to this. You win through the sheer power of your nuttery, there's no conversation to have with you and you'll only really converse with people who share your weird views and so you're trapped in them. I'm not saying that I won't challenge them because I was brought up to challenge but I understand that you've gotten so far to the extreme that you don't care.

You don't have to care what I think but I still care about what you think. I believe you're better than this and can can get back to a reasonable position. I don't like what this does to you.

There is no "reasonable position" to be had when the world is controlled by evil fuckers who are enabled by their tame media who lie to us constantly.

There certainly is. The reasonable position logically is the elimination of evil fuckers along with the tame media and other actors who enabled them. Completely reasonable and necessary for continued survival & freedom.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Garry G on December 02, 2023, 11:27:02 AM
You know I actually have no answer to this. You win through the sheer power of your nuttery, there's no conversation to have with you and you'll only really converse with people who share your weird views and so you're trapped in them. I'm not saying that I won't challenge them because I was brought up to challenge but I understand that you've gotten so far to the extreme that you don't care.

You don't have to care what I think but I still care about what you think. I believe you're better than this and can can get back to a reasonable position. I don't like what this does to you.

There is no "reasonable position" to be had when the world is controlled by evil fuckers who are enabled by their tame media who lie to us constantly.

There certainly is. The reasonable position logically is the elimination of evil fuckers along with the tame media and other actors who enabled them. Completely reasonable and necessary for continued survival & freedom.

Kiero isn't into that, he's keeping his head down and hoping it blows over.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on December 02, 2023, 11:35:09 AM
  Well the people willing to fight and die for stuff like that left Europe a looong time ago.  So I do not see much changing....though Ireland is getting spicy....
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Exploderwizard on December 02, 2023, 08:59:46 PM
  Well the people willing to fight and die for stuff like that left Europe a looong time ago.  So I do not see much changing....though Ireland is getting spicy....

When you try and tell a people that they don't have the right to be angry when foreign invaders kill their children expect pushback. With the Irish expect a lot more than that.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: SHARK on December 03, 2023, 07:17:49 AM
Greetings!

"Hard Times, creates strong men.

Strong Men create Good Times.

Good Times creates weak men.

Weak men create bad times.

Bad times creates Strong Men."

We are seeing this cycle play out in such a powerful manner. Ireland needs to get their shit together, or they will be corrupted into a third-world cesspool.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ratman_tf on January 13, 2024, 11:22:09 PM
Fauci admits social distancing was made up bullshit.



This man belongs in jail.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Grognard GM on January 14, 2024, 12:31:24 AM
Fauci admits social distancing was made up bullshit.



This man belongs in jail.

He has so many layers of social ablative armor, he's impervious. He could gun people down in the street and walk off whistling.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on January 14, 2024, 11:10:06 AM
  Well the people willing to fight and die for stuff like that left Europe a looong time ago.  So I do not see much changing....though Ireland is getting spicy....

When you try and tell a people that they don't have the right to be angry when foreign invaders kill their children expect pushback. With the Irish expect a lot more than that.

  I do remember a time when pissed off Irishmen meant bodies in the street and cars exploding.  It was not that long ago.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Grognard GM on January 14, 2024, 12:06:07 PM
  Well the people willing to fight and die for stuff like that left Europe a looong time ago.

Look, I'm as proud of being an American as the next guy, but let's wake up and smell the reality shall we?

For all the larping from militia types with their arsenal of weapons, 'ready to water the tree of liberty,' jack and shit has happened. Every time rights are stripped away, there's grumbling, and nothing happens. Schrodinger's Patriots.

So maybe strut to the Europeans a little less, and consider that the spirit of 76 may be a little fucking absent on both sides of the pond. 
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: squirewaldo on January 15, 2024, 09:54:42 AM
  Well the people willing to fight and die for stuff like that left Europe a looong time ago.

Look, I'm as proud of being an American as the next guy, but let's wake up and smell the reality shall we?

For all the larping from militia types with their arsenal of weapons, 'ready to water the tree of liberty,' jack and shit has happened. Every time rights are stripped away, there's grumbling, and nothing happens. Schrodinger's Patriots.

So maybe strut to the Europeans a little less, and consider that the spirit of 76 may be a little fucking absent on both sides of the pond.

Sadly, I must conclude you are correct. The militia types won't even peacefully protest -- the 2nd Amendment has just become a gun collecting fetish. The only people willing to do anything are on the Left, and it seems to me they have won. :(
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Brad on January 15, 2024, 10:43:25 AM
Sadly, I must conclude you are correct. The militia types won't even peacefully protest -- the 2nd Amendment has just become a gun collecting fetish. The only people willing to do anything are on the Left, and it seems to me they have won. :(

Be nice until it's time to not be nice. Still not there yet.

Cf. Killdozer
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: squirewaldo on January 15, 2024, 11:27:09 AM
Sadly, I must conclude you are correct. The militia types won't even peacefully protest -- the 2nd Amendment has just become a gun collecting fetish. The only people willing to do anything are on the Left, and it seems to me they have won. :(

Be nice until it's time to not be nice. Still not there yet.

Cf. Killdozer

Ok. Let me know when we get there. Will it be when the cattle cars start taking us to re-education camps????

Just my opinion, but we got there a long time ago, and now it is too late. But what do I know?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ratman_tf on January 15, 2024, 12:35:35 PM
As long as people have their Netflix and hot pockets, they'll stay complacent. Maybe grumble but not actually do anything.
The few "Strong men" who stand out will get hammered down while the masses cluck their tongues and comment about "Those survival prepper kooks."
Your best bet, IMO, is to hunker down and hope they don't come around for you before you croak.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Garry G on January 15, 2024, 01:37:28 PM
FFS you're all Kiero!

This is it then, you've been talking for years about how the world is ending because of stuff and your reaction is a whimper? The strongest comment is from Brad who doesn't want to stop being nice until some undefined time?

I'm not feeling the strong men thing here peeps!
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Howard on January 15, 2024, 02:12:05 PM
FFS you're all Kiero!

This is it then, you've been talking for years about how the world is ending because of stuff and your reaction is a whimper? The strongest comment is from Brad who doesn't want to stop being nice until some undefined time?

I'm not feeling the string men thing here peeps!

Coming out and stating anything, even hypothetical, in a public forum is not a good survival strategy. Look at the overcharging of J6 folks vs. the undercharging of the '20 riots.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Garry G on January 15, 2024, 02:18:28 PM
FFS you're all Kiero!

This is it then, you've been talking for years about how the world is ending because of stuff and your reaction is a whimper? The strongest comment is from Brad who doesn't want to stop being nice until some undefined time?

I'm not feeling the string men thing here peeps!

Coming out and stating anything, even hypothetical, in a public forum is not a good survival strategy. Look at the overcharging of J6 folks vs. the undercharging of the '20 riots.

That's reasonable, it's okay to be feart strong men.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Grognard GM on January 15, 2024, 04:17:22 PM
FFS you're all Kiero!

This is it then, you've been talking for years about how the world is ending because of stuff and your reaction is a whimper? The strongest comment is from Brad who doesn't want to stop being nice until some undefined time?

I'm not feeling the string men thing here peeps!

Coming out and stating anything, even hypothetical, in a public forum is not a good survival strategy. Look at the overcharging of J6 folks vs. the undercharging of the '20 riots.

That's reasonable, it's okay to be feart strong men.

People like you make me wish that karma was real.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Garry G on January 15, 2024, 05:08:27 PM
FFS you're all Kiero!

This is it then, you've been talking for years about how the world is ending because of stuff and your reaction is a whimper? The strongest comment is from Brad who doesn't want to stop being nice until some undefined time?

I'm not feeling the string men thing here peeps!

Coming out and stating anything, even hypothetical, in a public forum is not a good survival strategy. Look at the overcharging of J6 folks vs. the undercharging of the '20 riots.

That's reasonable, it's okay to be feart strong men.

People like you make me wish that karma was real.

Because karma is free result of actually doing something?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Eirikrautha on January 15, 2024, 06:23:32 PM
FFS you're all Kiero!

This is it then, you've been talking for years about how the world is ending because of stuff and your reaction is a whimper? The strongest comment is from Brad who doesn't want to stop being nice until some undefined time?

I'm not feeling the string men thing here peeps!

Coming out and stating anything, even hypothetical, in a public forum is not a good survival strategy. Look at the overcharging of J6 folks vs. the undercharging of the '20 riots.

That's reasonable, it's okay to be feart strong men.

People like you make me wish that karma was real.

No need.  Watching someone who has never accomplished anything in their life of note urge others to action they'd never take is the height of humor.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Kiero on January 16, 2024, 06:20:34 AM
Debated in Parliament (and reported here (https://twitter.com/lensiseethrough/status/1747204844224405964)):

Quote
Astonishing revelation by @ABridgen in this morning's today's Westminster Hall excess death debate:

It has been confirmed that @UKHSA holds data on C19 vaccine dosage dates and deaths, data which is critical to establishing the absence, or otherwise, of a causal link between excess deaths and the vaccines.  UKHSA has apparently released this data to Pfizer, Moderna and Astra Zeneca, but it has refused to release the data to the public.

This is incredible. As @ABridgen states:

"They've released our health data to Big Pharma but they won't release it to us...is it really too much to ask that the British public be given the same level of access to the relevant data given to big pharma companies..."

And also:

"The Covid Inquiry should be urgently looking at this issue instead they are wasting taxpayers' money... while people are dying...it is as if the Inquiry is so desperate not to find fault that they can't even look".

It is clear from the number of attendees in the Hall and the tone and content of the comments being made ("there is far more demand to speak in this debate than there is time" - @miriam_cates) that concern within Parliament is mounting.  Full summary to follow but @mariacaulfield, currently chewing her fingernails, appears not to be relishing the prospect of responding.

The UKHSA is the UK government's health protection agency. Apparently, they work for Big Pharma, not the citizens who pay for them.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on January 17, 2024, 10:17:55 AM
  I do not think a time for violence (and IMO violence is acting to kill people, not street brawling, not shouting and not shoving) has arrived yet.   I do think there is a population that is getting very irritated.   I know, for fact, many of that population are doing all they can right now to be strong, fit, independent, well supplied.   Do I think there will be open revolution?  Doubtful.   Do I forsee massive internal collapse?  Much more possible.  I feel the strong men are preparing for the next phase more so than planning to die to convince insane people to not cut their kids sex organs off.  The nation as a whole is a loss regarding what it was built to be and how it was formed.  There is NO AMOUNT of political activism (which the loud mouth here screeches about...forgetting all his "activism" he engages in is institutionally endorsed) that is going to change the strange off the cliff trajectory of the United States.  Too much rot, demographic change (rapid fire forced demographic change), and mass levels of propaganda to accept "change".   But I think its a house built on sand.  It will rot and fall apart.   Already the military is losing its combat arms demographic in huge numbers.   I am not interested in storming the streets...its folly.  I am however raising Jane and John Conner. 
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: squirewaldo on January 17, 2024, 10:42:15 AM
  I do not think a time for violence (and IMO violence is acting to kill people, not street brawling, not shouting and not shoving) has arrived yet.   I do think there is a population that is getting very irritated.   I know, for fact, many of that population are doing all they can right now to be strong, fit, independent, well supplied.   Do I think there will be open revolution?  Doubtful.   Do I forsee massive internal collapse?  Much more possible.  I feel the strong men are preparing for the next phase more so than planning to die to convince insane people to not cut their kids sex organs off.  The nation as a whole is a loss regarding what it was built to be and how it was formed.  There is NO AMOUNT of political activism (which the loud mouth here screeches about...forgetting all his "activism" he engages in is institutionally endorsed) that is going to change the strange off the cliff trajectory of the United States.  Too much rot, demographic change (rapid fire forced demographic change), and mass levels of propaganda to accept "change".   But I think its a house built on sand.  It will rot and fall apart.   Already the military is losing its combat arms demographic in huge numbers.   I am not interested in storming the streets...its folly.  I am however raising Jane and John Conner.

My real problem with this, "We are not there yet..." is it implies a wholly passive attitude. A resolve to do nothing but wait until things get really really really bad. By that time it will be too late. I think the time has already come and gone to fix the USA with traditional non-violent means. We failed to honor our civic obligations when all we would have had to do is get involved in a peaceful way. I also think that the time to rise up and rebel against a tyrannical system has passed. There has been a revolution, and the revolution won -- they control every aspect of power. The only way to defeat a victorious revolution is to mount a counter-revolution. That will not happen. Counter-revolutions run just like revolutions... they require a committed leadership that works subversively to bring down the corrupt system and willing to break some eggs to make an omelette, as well as the cadres quietly moving among the people executing the subversion. We don't have either of those.

We are alone. No one will save us. We have to make decisions on our own about how to deal with these situations as best we can. IMHO

Good luck to everyone!
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Brad on January 17, 2024, 11:13:43 AM
My real problem with this, "We are not there yet..." is it implies a wholly passive attitude.

Restating this: Be nice until it's time to not be nice. This is in no way passive whatsoever, it's the same thing as some dude trying to start shit with you in a bar, you keep ignoring him until it's time to crack his skull with a beer bottle. Waaaaay too many wannabes will engage in a shoving/shouting match; a lot of them don't care about getting thrown in jail overnight or having yet another line item on their rap sheet. People who have a lot to lose avoid trouble as much as possible until they cannot avoid trouble, then they act swiftly with great resolve. Rousing the guy who just wants to be left alone is a great folly because once he has decided he must either act or lose everything, he will not stop. It won't just be some riot that disperses and everyone goes home to post about it on reddit, it's going to be a concerted, directed effort that will not stop until the objective is complete. More concisely, don't poke the bear.

So we're not there yet. When we are, all the people you think are "passive" won't seem that way when they're sweeping streets with 00 buck.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on January 17, 2024, 11:24:47 AM
  I do not think a time for violence (and IMO violence is acting to kill people, not street brawling, not shouting and not shoving) has arrived yet.   I do think there is a population that is getting very irritated.   I know, for fact, many of that population are doing all they can right now to be strong, fit, independent, well supplied.   Do I think there will be open revolution?  Doubtful.   Do I forsee massive internal collapse?  Much more possible.  I feel the strong men are preparing for the next phase more so than planning to die to convince insane people to not cut their kids sex organs off.  The nation as a whole is a loss regarding what it was built to be and how it was formed.  There is NO AMOUNT of political activism (which the loud mouth here screeches about...forgetting all his "activism" he engages in is institutionally endorsed) that is going to change the strange off the cliff trajectory of the United States.  Too much rot, demographic change (rapid fire forced demographic change), and mass levels of propaganda to accept "change".   But I think its a house built on sand.  It will rot and fall apart.   Already the military is losing its combat arms demographic in huge numbers.   I am not interested in storming the streets...its folly.  I am however raising Jane and John Conner.

My real problem with this, "We are not there yet..." is it implies a wholly passive attitude. A resolve to do nothing but wait until things get really really really bad. By that time it will be too late. I think the time has already come and gone to fix the USA with traditional non-violent means. We failed to honor our civic obligations when all we would have had to do is get involved in a peaceful way. I also think that the time to rise up and rebel against a tyrannical system has passed. There has been a revolution, and the revolution won -- they control every aspect of power. The only way to defeat a victorious revolution is to mount a counter-revolution. That will not happen. Counter-revolutions run just like revolutions... they require a committed leadership that works subversively to bring down the corrupt system and willing to break some eggs to make an omelette, as well as the cadres quietly moving among the people executing the subversion. We don't have either of those.

We are alone. No one will save us. We have to make decisions on our own about how to deal with these situations as best we can. IMHO

Good luck to everyone!

   There has been NO TIME for a violent revolution to rise.  Soldiers will do as they are told.  The USA military has been for a long time EXTREMELY powerful and would quickly crush any concentrations of revolution.  At no time was there a "civic" answer either, those options were long removed by propaganda arms that gave you decisions between pepsi and coke and that was it.  For there to be a mass action, especially from Right wing people, they need the "Morale Green light" and it will have to be really really bad for them to act because all other Morale options will have been exhausted.   In the meantime as we approach that position...the military is MUCH weaker than it has been in the past.  Police officers are leaving their posts and police departments are horribly understaffed.   The institutions that keep these insane tyrants in power are SEVERELY weakened and many who manned their ranks are now out with other jobs and new points of view about what is going on.   As for being alone...network with IRL people.  See just how alone you really are, because I can assure you in most places in the country you are not alone.   If you find its just you and your family...well exercise, lift weights, learn to fight, learn to shoot, store some food.  This is in reality about all you can do until it gets really bad, because it will have to get really bad for that morale green light to pop on for most people you would want on your side.   Raise Jane and John Conner and reach around where you live and see just how alone you really are.  I again assure you...you are not alone nor unique in your concerns.    Start a club that meets weekly.   If you are not even doing that....IMO you are the one asking for someone to come save you. 
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: squirewaldo on January 17, 2024, 11:36:22 AM
  I do not think a time for violence (and IMO violence is acting to kill people, not street brawling, not shouting and not shoving) has arrived yet.   I do think there is a population that is getting very irritated.   I know, for fact, many of that population are doing all they can right now to be strong, fit, independent, well supplied.   Do I think there will be open revolution?  Doubtful.   Do I forsee massive internal collapse?  Much more possible.  I feel the strong men are preparing for the next phase more so than planning to die to convince insane people to not cut their kids sex organs off.  The nation as a whole is a loss regarding what it was built to be and how it was formed.  There is NO AMOUNT of political activism (which the loud mouth here screeches about...forgetting all his "activism" he engages in is institutionally endorsed) that is going to change the strange off the cliff trajectory of the United States.  Too much rot, demographic change (rapid fire forced demographic change), and mass levels of propaganda to accept "change".   But I think its a house built on sand.  It will rot and fall apart.   Already the military is losing its combat arms demographic in huge numbers.   I am not interested in storming the streets...its folly.  I am however raising Jane and John Conner.

My real problem with this, "We are not there yet..." is it implies a wholly passive attitude. A resolve to do nothing but wait until things get really really really bad. By that time it will be too late. I think the time has already come and gone to fix the USA with traditional non-violent means. We failed to honor our civic obligations when all we would have had to do is get involved in a peaceful way. I also think that the time to rise up and rebel against a tyrannical system has passed. There has been a revolution, and the revolution won -- they control every aspect of power. The only way to defeat a victorious revolution is to mount a counter-revolution. That will not happen. Counter-revolutions run just like revolutions... they require a committed leadership that works subversively to bring down the corrupt system and willing to break some eggs to make an omelette, as well as the cadres quietly moving among the people executing the subversion. We don't have either of those.

We are alone. No one will save us. We have to make decisions on our own about how to deal with these situations as best we can. IMHO

Good luck to everyone!

   There has been NO TIME for a violent revolution to rise.  Soldiers will do as they are told.  The USA military has been for a long time EXTREMELY powerful and would quickly crush any concentrations of revolution.  At no time was there a "civic" answer either, those options were long removed by propaganda arms that gave you decisions between pepsi and coke and that was it.  For there to be a mass action, especially from Right wing people, they need the "Morale Green light" and it will have to be really really bad for them to act because all other Morale options will have been exhausted.   In the meantime as we approach that position...the military is MUCH weaker than it has been in the past.  Police officers are leaving their posts and police departments are horribly understaffed.   The institutions that keep these insane tyrants in power are SEVERELY weakened and many who manned their ranks are now out with other jobs and new points of view about what is going on.   As for being alone...network with IRL people.  See just how alone you really are, because I can assure you in most places in the country you are not alone.   If you find its just you and your family...well exercise, lift weights, learn to fight, learn to shoot, store some food.  This is in reality about all you can do until it gets really bad, because it will have to get really bad for that morale green light to pop on for most people you would want on your side.   Raise Jane and John Conner and reach around where you live and see just how alone you really are.  I again assure you...you are not alone nor unique in your concerns.    Start a club that meets weekly.   If you are not even doing that....IMO you are the one asking for someone to come save you.

No need to worry about me. I have already decided what to do and did it.

The wheels on the bus have been wobbling for a very long time. Now it is too late to fix them. Things are going to start falling apart and there is no one who will put the pieces back together. If there was a time to fix things, that time is passed.

Again, we are all alone. You go join a club. I have already found my solution, and it is working out very well for me. I am not waiting for patriots, or leaders, or my fellow Americans to help me or anyone else. None of that is going to happen.

I have decided what to do. And I did it. I don't need to talk to anyone to come up with excuses as to why I am not going to act to preserve myself and my family.

Take care and best of luck!
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on January 17, 2024, 11:46:19 AM
  I do not think a time for violence (and IMO violence is acting to kill people, not street brawling, not shouting and not shoving) has arrived yet.   I do think there is a population that is getting very irritated.   I know, for fact, many of that population are doing all they can right now to be strong, fit, independent, well supplied.   Do I think there will be open revolution?  Doubtful.   Do I forsee massive internal collapse?  Much more possible.  I feel the strong men are preparing for the next phase more so than planning to die to convince insane people to not cut their kids sex organs off.  The nation as a whole is a loss regarding what it was built to be and how it was formed.  There is NO AMOUNT of political activism (which the loud mouth here screeches about...forgetting all his "activism" he engages in is institutionally endorsed) that is going to change the strange off the cliff trajectory of the United States.  Too much rot, demographic change (rapid fire forced demographic change), and mass levels of propaganda to accept "change".   But I think its a house built on sand.  It will rot and fall apart.   Already the military is losing its combat arms demographic in huge numbers.   I am not interested in storming the streets...its folly.  I am however raising Jane and John Conner.

My real problem with this, "We are not there yet..." is it implies a wholly passive attitude. A resolve to do nothing but wait until things get really really really bad. By that time it will be too late. I think the time has already come and gone to fix the USA with traditional non-violent means. We failed to honor our civic obligations when all we would have had to do is get involved in a peaceful way. I also think that the time to rise up and rebel against a tyrannical system has passed. There has been a revolution, and the revolution won -- they control every aspect of power. The only way to defeat a victorious revolution is to mount a counter-revolution. That will not happen. Counter-revolutions run just like revolutions... they require a committed leadership that works subversively to bring down the corrupt system and willing to break some eggs to make an omelette, as well as the cadres quietly moving among the people executing the subversion. We don't have either of those.

We are alone. No one will save us. We have to make decisions on our own about how to deal with these situations as best we can. IMHO

Good luck to everyone!

   There has been NO TIME for a violent revolution to rise.  Soldiers will do as they are told.  The USA military has been for a long time EXTREMELY powerful and would quickly crush any concentrations of revolution.  At no time was there a "civic" answer either, those options were long removed by propaganda arms that gave you decisions between pepsi and coke and that was it.  For there to be a mass action, especially from Right wing people, they need the "Morale Green light" and it will have to be really really bad for them to act because all other Morale options will have been exhausted.   In the meantime as we approach that position...the military is MUCH weaker than it has been in the past.  Police officers are leaving their posts and police departments are horribly understaffed.   The institutions that keep these insane tyrants in power are SEVERELY weakened and many who manned their ranks are now out with other jobs and new points of view about what is going on.   As for being alone...network with IRL people.  See just how alone you really are, because I can assure you in most places in the country you are not alone.   If you find its just you and your family...well exercise, lift weights, learn to fight, learn to shoot, store some food.  This is in reality about all you can do until it gets really bad, because it will have to get really bad for that morale green light to pop on for most people you would want on your side.   Raise Jane and John Conner and reach around where you live and see just how alone you really are.  I again assure you...you are not alone nor unique in your concerns.    Start a club that meets weekly.   If you are not even doing that....IMO you are the one asking for someone to come save you.

No need to worry about me. I have already decided what to do and did it.

The wheels on the bus have been wobbling for a very long time. Now it is too late to fix them. Things are going to start falling apart and there is no one who will put the pieces back together. If there was a time to fix things, that time is passed.

Again, we are all alone. You go join a club. I have already found my solution, and it is working out very well for me. I am not waiting for patriots, or leaders, or my fellow Americans to help me or anyone else. None of that is going to happen.

I have decided what to do. And I did it. I don't need to talk to anyone to come up with excuses as to why I am not going to act to preserve myself and my family.

Take care and best of luck!

   You speak about what will not happen after making zero effort to make something happen.  You speak from a position of time passed (there was never any realistic way to reverse course of the insane trajectory the nation has been on, its been hijacked since before the 90's).   You talk as if Brad and I are not going to preserve anything....or as if we are making excuses...when it seems you have taken pretty much the exact same approach (preparing yourself and those around you) that we have and not getting heavily involved in exterior political activism.   If your solution is so wonderful, perhaps share it and drop the snark attitude.   
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on January 17, 2024, 11:56:28 AM
  I also want to clarify...if I have the tone wrong here...  I am not sure I understand the talk of passivity with regard to the nation at large when we said we did all we could inside the spheres we do control (household/family) and chose to not waste but so much gas on exterior things we can not control.   I am not so certain as to how that is passive and how you squirrel are doing anything at all different?  If you have some ideas to share (that I most certainly could have not thought of already) I would love to hear them as I think there is a productive nature to taking a look at things and seeing what other people have decided to take as a course. 
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: squirewaldo on January 17, 2024, 11:58:36 AM
If your solution is so wonderful, perhaps share it and drop the snark attitude.

Why? Would anyone listen to me? Would it help me or anyone else to describe what I have done in the face of a hopeless situation in the USA? No. Not in my opinion. Furthermore, the choices I made may not work for other people. So why share anything? So that people can call me names and tell me how bad or stupid I am?

All I am saying is it is time to be realistic. It sounds to me like you are extremely realistic in regards to the problems facing the USA. At least I am in total agreement with what you have been saying, so if you are not realistic about the problems, then neither am I... in fact part of me really hopes I am wrong.

So we all have choices and decisions to make. What do you do if everything that you described is true? I would never presume to tell other people what to do. I just think it is time be realistic. Our options are few and none of them necessarily appealing or easy.

What do you think people living in the USA should do right now with the circumstances they find themselves and the resources they have availalbe to them?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: squirewaldo on January 17, 2024, 12:00:22 PM
  I also want to clarify...if I have the tone wrong here...  I am not sure I understand the talk of passivity with regard to the nation at large when we said we did all we could inside the spheres we do control (household/family) and chose to not waste but so much gas on exterior things we can not control.   I am not so certain as to how that is passive and how you squirrel are doing anything at all different?  If you have some ideas to share (that I most certainly could have not thought of already) I would love to hear them as I think there is a productive nature to taking a look at things and seeing what other people have decided to take as a course.

I don't quite understand why you think I am talking about you???? I wasn't. I was agreeing with you, and adding my .02. sorry if I offended.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on January 17, 2024, 12:05:08 PM
  I also want to clarify...if I have the tone wrong here...  I am not sure I understand the talk of passivity with regard to the nation at large when we said we did all we could inside the spheres we do control (household/family) and chose to not waste but so much gas on exterior things we can not control.   I am not so certain as to how that is passive and how you squirrel are doing anything at all different?  If you have some ideas to share (that I most certainly could have not thought of already) I would love to hear them as I think there is a productive nature to taking a look at things and seeing what other people have decided to take as a course.

I don't quite understand why you think I am talking about you???? I wasn't. I was agreeing with you, and adding my .02. sorry if I offended.

  Not offended, the nature of quote response and me reading everything like a monotone robot in my head confused me as to what you said when it did seem we are in agreement on several points.    Tone and such are not always easy for me in text so it did come off as a bit confusing with some of the response you had when combined with the total.   Apologies for my confusion.  I can also understand you may have said it with a touch of emotion, and I certainly read some of it with a touch of emotion as watching what is going on with the USA is like watching a beloved relative die a slow agonizing death to me (and I suspect to others) where I am largely helpless to do anything about it.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on January 17, 2024, 12:11:42 PM
If your solution is so wonderful, perhaps share it and drop the snark attitude.

Why? Would anyone listen to me? Would it help me or anyone else to describe what I have done in the face of a hopeless situation in the USA? No. Not in my opinion. Furthermore, the choices I made may not work for other people. So why share anything? So that people can call me names and tell me how bad or stupid I am?

All I am saying is it is time to be realistic. It sounds to me like you are extremely realistic in regards to the problems facing the USA. At least I am in total agreement with what you have been saying, so if you are not realistic about the problems, then neither am I... in fact part of me really hopes I am wrong.

So we all have choices and decisions to make. What do you do if everything that you described is true? I would never presume to tell other people what to do. I just think it is time be realistic. Our options are few and none of them necessarily appealing or easy.

What do you think people living in the USA should do right now with the circumstances they find themselves and the resources they have availalbe to them?

  Sorry about the other, I think we are back to same page.  My suggestions?   Get completely free of debt.  Get in the best shape you can.  Get as strong as you can.  Learn to fight.  Learn to shoot. Store some food.   I think those are all attainable by everyone regardless of resources.   If you have family that will go along with it (sadly I do not...this is a hard no from the spouse)..move to an extremely rural area where if you had to you could at least raise chickens and plant a large garden that will be self sustaining.  Network heavily among people with shared interest (I have a cheat method here as I teach BJJ and have a large number of men with similar points of view I am in contact with often) whether it be at some club, church, etc. 

   I think those things are about the limits.   The being in shape to me is not necessarily to be able to fight off 3 people solo...its to insulate yourself from having to use a bunch of health care services (I think those sorts of services are going straight into the shitter the next 20 years big time) and IME stronger fitter people do not get sick or die as easily.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: squirewaldo on January 17, 2024, 12:16:26 PM
  I also want to clarify...if I have the tone wrong here...  I am not sure I understand the talk of passivity with regard to the nation at large when we said we did all we could inside the spheres we do control (household/family) and chose to not waste but so much gas on exterior things we can not control.   I am not so certain as to how that is passive and how you squirrel are doing anything at all different?  If you have some ideas to share (that I most certainly could have not thought of already) I would love to hear them as I think there is a productive nature to taking a look at things and seeing what other people have decided to take as a course.
I don't quite understand why you think I am talking about you???? I wasn't. I was agreeing with you, and adding my .02. sorry if I offended.

  Not offended, the nature of quote response and me reading everything like a monotone robot in my head confused me as to what you said when it did seem we are in agreement on several points.    Tone and such are not always easy for me in text so it did come off as a bit confusing with some of the response you had when combined with the total.   Apologies for my confusion.  I can also understand you may have said it with a touch of emotion, and I certainly read some of it with a touch of emotion as watching what is going on with the USA is like watching a beloved relative die a slow agonizing death to me (and I suspect to others) where I am largely helpless to do anything about it.

When I find myself in disagreement with someone I first try to understand where we agree, and then try to understand where we disagree.

It would seem to me that we are in agreement about what is wrong with the USA. I suspect that our issue of disagreement has to do with my proposition, perhaps not stated clearly, that: The USA cannot be fixed, or at least will not be fixed by me or anyone else.

And with that proposition comes a very different attitude and a very different set of possible solutions. But even in this, I may be wrong. Perhaps you agree with me on this last point as well? In which case I am confused about what we disagree about.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on January 17, 2024, 12:24:08 PM
  I also want to clarify...if I have the tone wrong here...  I am not sure I understand the talk of passivity with regard to the nation at large when we said we did all we could inside the spheres we do control (household/family) and chose to not waste but so much gas on exterior things we can not control.   I am not so certain as to how that is passive and how you squirrel are doing anything at all different?  If you have some ideas to share (that I most certainly could have not thought of already) I would love to hear them as I think there is a productive nature to taking a look at things and seeing what other people have decided to take as a course.
I don't quite understand why you think I am talking about you???? I wasn't. I was agreeing with you, and adding my .02. sorry if I offended.

  Not offended, the nature of quote response and me reading everything like a monotone robot in my head confused me as to what you said when it did seem we are in agreement on several points.    Tone and such are not always easy for me in text so it did come off as a bit confusing with some of the response you had when combined with the total.   Apologies for my confusion.  I can also understand you may have said it with a touch of emotion, and I certainly read some of it with a touch of emotion as watching what is going on with the USA is like watching a beloved relative die a slow agonizing death to me (and I suspect to others) where I am largely helpless to do anything about it.

When I find myself in disagreement with someone I first try to understand where we agree, and then try to understand where we disagree.

It would seem to me that we are in agreement about what is wrong with the USA. I suspect that our issue of disagreement has to do with my proposition, perhaps not stated clearly, that: The USA cannot be fixed, or at least will not be fixed by me or anyone else.

And with that proposition comes a very different attitude and a very different set of possible solutions. But even in this, I may be wrong. Perhaps you agree with me on this last point as well? In which case I am confused about what we disagree about.

  I never said we disagree about anything.  I do not know where I presented anything that says the USA can be fixed.   I only presented the reality people are not going to do anything on a large scale until it is really really bad.   I do not think there will some "saving" of the USA after that.  I think something new is born...what I do not know;  but I have a feeling Trans story hour is not going to be in any way part of the new culture/nation/situation arising from collapse.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: squirewaldo on January 17, 2024, 12:56:44 PM

When I find myself in disagreement with someone I first try to understand where we agree, and then try to understand where we disagree.

It would seem to me that we are in agreement about what is wrong with the USA. I suspect that our issue of disagreement has to do with my proposition, perhaps not stated clearly, that: The USA cannot be fixed, or at least will not be fixed by me or anyone else.

And with that proposition comes a very different attitude and a very different set of possible solutions. But even in this, I may be wrong. Perhaps you agree with me on this last point as well? In which case I am confused about what we disagree about.
[/quote]

  I never said we disagree about anything.  I do not know where I presented anything that says the USA can be fixed.   I only presented the reality people are not going to do anything on a large scale until it is really really bad.   I do not think there will some "saving" of the USA after that.  I think something new is born...what I do not know;  but I have a feeling Trans story hour is not going to be in any way part of the new culture/nation/situation arising from collapse.
[/quote]

I think we do disagree on a few things, but that may simply be because I am in a different situation than you.

If my wife resisted such simple and reasonable actions as you propose... she would not be my wife for long. Of course I am divorced (the Best thing I ever did for myself), and I have refused to get involved with women on anything other than the most shallow basis. I am very happy about this! :) I have never been so financially stable, I get along great with my kids, my health is better than when I lived with the witch, and all around I am happy and feel secure.

Also, I am much more pessimistic about what will happen when there is a collapse. I like to think I am a student of history, and I cannot think of a single instance of cultural and societal collapse where things got better in the short term. I look at the USA as a sinking ship. When you are on a sinking ship the best thing to do is to get off, and get as far away as possible so that the thing does not take you down with it in the vortex it creates as it sinks.

I think this metaphor matches my thought process: I am living in a big house or dormitory with a bunch of other people. I don't really like them that much, but I don't really hate them either. They are just there. So every Saturday night we sit around and argue and complain about what to do. If I participated in that discussion for too long, I would end up sitting in that house never going anywhere. So I tell people what I want to do, they always ignore me, and then I go out on my own. Eventually, I move out of the house because I just cannot stand the constant negativity combined with a total lack of motivation to do anything.

Take care and best of luck. We are all going to need good luck. As my father used to say, "It is better to be lucky than smart!"
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on January 17, 2024, 01:02:18 PM
  Well to her living deep in the woods seems to be like someone dropping her into hell.  It's the one suggestion she will not take and one that Honestly her good list of qualities greatly outweighs that one strike.   I do also mention to her, if apocalypse hits and as I die dragging her and the kids around because we have too many people around us...I am going to make sure she hears it with my dying breath.

  In her defense...my idea of rural is probably extreme. 
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Grognard GM on January 17, 2024, 01:07:58 PM
In her defense...my idea of rural is probably extreme.

I hear ya, 2 block walk to a Starbucks. Not every woman wants that kind of extreme isolation.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on January 17, 2024, 01:26:01 PM
  If only....we are in an area she already considers rural, and when we go where I consider it rural...  In any event it is what it is.   I guess though the wobbly wheels may fall off sooner than I expected when I read about several major airlines doing all they can to get a fast action swap of the demographics of their pilots.    That may not end well. 
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: GeekyBugle on January 17, 2024, 06:58:58 PM
Don't worry boys and girls, the ChiCom are hard at work trying to bring the bio-apocalypse

Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: jhkim on January 17, 2024, 11:37:25 PM
Don't worry boys and girls, the ChiCom are hard at work trying to bring the bio-apocalypse

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUs82E_aEOQ&t=638s

Here's the Daily Mail article being quoted:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-12969105/chinese-scientists-lab-coronavirus-kill-rate-mice.html

I immediately note the bullshit clickbait headline that they "created" a virus, when the text makes clear that they are testing a virus that already exists in the pangolin population seven years ago. I don't know how to judge the research being done here currently, but the article does things like quoting a chemist on Twitter about what he thinks about the viral research. I'd be interested to see a reasoned analysis of the work.

I know that as a particle physicist, I would often get people angry and afraid, screaming about how dangerous it was to have nuclear testing going on in their own backyard -- like why didn't we just give up with bombing.

Studying radiation is not the same as creating a nuclear weapon, and studying naturally-occurring viruses is not the same as engineering bioweapons.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ratman_tf on January 18, 2024, 12:38:26 AM
Don't worry boys and girls, the ChiCom are hard at work trying to bring the bio-apocalypse

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUs82E_aEOQ&t=638s

Here's the Daily Mail article being quoted:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-12969105/chinese-scientists-lab-coronavirus-kill-rate-mice.html

I immediately note the bullshit clickbait headline that they "created" a virus, when the text makes clear that they are testing a virus that already exists in the pangolin population seven years ago. I don't know how to judge the research being done here currently, but the article does things like quoting a chemist on Twitter about what he thinks about the viral research. I'd be interested to see a reasoned analysis of the work.

I know that as a particle physicist, I would often get people angry and afraid, screaming about how dangerous it was to have nuclear testing going on in their own backyard -- like why didn't we just give up with bombing.

Studying radiation is not the same as creating a nuclear weapon, and studying naturally-occurring viruses is not the same as engineering bioweapons.


After being ground zero of a novel coronavirus, and having the spectre of unanswered questions about gain of function research, I'd think China would have the goddamn sense to lay off any virus research for a good long while.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: jhkim on January 18, 2024, 01:50:09 AM
Here's the Daily Mail article being quoted:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-12969105/chinese-scientists-lab-coronavirus-kill-rate-mice.html

I immediately note the bullshit clickbait headline that they "created" a virus, when the text makes clear that they are testing a virus that already exists in the pangolin population seven years ago. I don't know how to judge the research being done here currently, but the article does things like quoting a chemist on Twitter about what he thinks about the viral research. I'd be interested to see a reasoned analysis of the work.

I know that as a particle physicist, I would often get people angry and afraid, screaming about how dangerous it was to have nuclear testing going on in their own backyard -- like why didn't we just give up with bombing.

Studying radiation is not the same as creating a nuclear weapon, and studying naturally-occurring viruses is not the same as engineering bioweapons.


After being ground zero of a novel coronavirus, and having the spectre of unanswered questions about gain of function research, I'd think China would have the goddamn sense to lay off any virus research for a good long while.

The presumption here is that its inherently dangerous to scientifically studying things. Those damn scientists and their DNA and radioactivity and stuff. By this logic, after Chernobyl and Fukushima, scientists should have stopped nuclear research for a while, because nuclear research is dangerous.

I think this logic is flawed. Chernobyl was tragic, but even more tragic was the cover-up and lack of study. Ignorant action lead to an increase in deaths from the accident.

It is better to learn and design fixes rather than ignore potential dangers. I realize that opinions are all over about covid-19, and I'll say again that I'm not a virologist -- but in general, I think we have made huge gains from studying the causes of disasters and their effects on humans. We've gotten better at warning of earthquakes, predicting storms, and preparing for drought. We've identified lots of toxins, prompting things like ending leaded gasoline and lead-based paint.

Even for those who believe that covid-19 was an engineered bioweapon (say), I would think that they would want that studied and proven rather than just shrugging and giving up on science, saying that viruses shouldn't be studied.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Grognard GM on January 18, 2024, 02:00:41 AM
Don't worry boys and girls, the ChiCom are hard at work trying to bring the bio-apocalypse

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUs82E_aEOQ&t=638s

Here's the Daily Mail article being quoted:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-12969105/chinese-scientists-lab-coronavirus-kill-rate-mice.html

I immediately note the bullshit clickbait headline that they "created" a virus, when the text makes clear that they are testing a virus that already exists in the pangolin population seven years ago. I don't know how to judge the research being done here currently, but the article does things like quoting a chemist on Twitter about what he thinks about the viral research. I'd be interested to see a reasoned analysis of the work.

I know that as a particle physicist, I would often get people angry and afraid, screaming about how dangerous it was to have nuclear testing going on in their own backyard -- like why didn't we just give up with bombing.

Studying radiation is not the same as creating a nuclear weapon, and studying naturally-occurring viruses is not the same as engineering bioweapons.


After being ground zero of a novel coronavirus, and having the spectre of unanswered questions about gain of function research, I'd think China would have the goddamn sense to lay off any virus research for a good long while.

Why would they? World governments covered up for them, and they faced zero censure or financial sanctions.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Eirikrautha on January 18, 2024, 06:52:09 AM
Don't worry boys and girls, the ChiCom are hard at work trying to bring the bio-apocalypse

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUs82E_aEOQ&t=638s

Here's the Daily Mail article being quoted:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-12969105/chinese-scientists-lab-coronavirus-kill-rate-mice.html

I immediately note the bullshit clickbait headline that they "created" a virus, when the text makes clear that they are testing a virus that already exists in the pangolin population seven years ago. I don't know how to judge the research being done here currently, but the article does things like quoting a chemist on Twitter about what he thinks about the viral research. I'd be interested to see a reasoned analysis of the work.

I know that as a particle physicist, I would often get people angry and afraid, screaming about how dangerous it was to have nuclear testing going on in their own backyard -- like why didn't we just give up with bombing.

Studying radiation is not the same as creating a nuclear weapon, and studying naturally-occurring viruses is not the same as engineering bioweapons.

Once again, jhkim can't help buy lie in his presentation of the article and who commented on the research:

Quote from: Daily Mail
Professor Francois Balloux, an infectious disease expert based at University College London, wrote on Twitter (X): 'It's a terrible study, scientifically totally pointless.

'I can see nothing of vague interest that could be learned from force-infecting a weird breed of humanized mice with a random virus. Conversely, I could see how such stuff might go wrong...'
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ratman_tf on January 18, 2024, 11:56:50 AM
Here's the Daily Mail article being quoted:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-12969105/chinese-scientists-lab-coronavirus-kill-rate-mice.html

I immediately note the bullshit clickbait headline that they "created" a virus, when the text makes clear that they are testing a virus that already exists in the pangolin population seven years ago. I don't know how to judge the research being done here currently, but the article does things like quoting a chemist on Twitter about what he thinks about the viral research. I'd be interested to see a reasoned analysis of the work.

I know that as a particle physicist, I would often get people angry and afraid, screaming about how dangerous it was to have nuclear testing going on in their own backyard -- like why didn't we just give up with bombing.

Studying radiation is not the same as creating a nuclear weapon, and studying naturally-occurring viruses is not the same as engineering bioweapons.


After being ground zero of a novel coronavirus, and having the spectre of unanswered questions about gain of function research, I'd think China would have the goddamn sense to lay off any virus research for a good long while.

The presumption here is that its inherently dangerous to scientifically studying things.

No, wrong again. The presumption is that the CCP and Chinese medical/scientific community are a bunch of incompetent, amoral assholes who should not be involved in scientific research of any kind.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: squirewaldo on January 18, 2024, 12:58:44 PM
Here's the Daily Mail article being quoted:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-12969105/chinese-scientists-lab-coronavirus-kill-rate-mice.html

I immediately note the bullshit clickbait headline that they "created" a virus, when the text makes clear that they are testing a virus that already exists in the pangolin population seven years ago. I don't know how to judge the research being done here currently, but the article does things like quoting a chemist on Twitter about what he thinks about the viral research. I'd be interested to see a reasoned analysis of the work.

I know that as a particle physicist, I would often get people angry and afraid, screaming about how dangerous it was to have nuclear testing going on in their own backyard -- like why didn't we just give up with bombing.

Studying radiation is not the same as creating a nuclear weapon, and studying naturally-occurring viruses is not the same as engineering bioweapons.


After being ground zero of a novel coronavirus, and having the spectre of unanswered questions about gain of function research, I'd think China would have the goddamn sense to lay off any virus research for a good long while.

The presumption here is that its inherently dangerous to scientifically studying things.

No, wrong again. The presumption is that the CCP and Chinese medical/scientific community are a bunch of incompetent, amoral assholes who should not be involved in scientific research of any kind.

Confused are you confusing the CCP with the US CDC and the US NIAID? Those were the guys paying all those incompetent Chinese researchers to do whatever it was they were doing. But what do I know?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ratman_tf on January 18, 2024, 01:58:40 PM
Here's the Daily Mail article being quoted:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-12969105/chinese-scientists-lab-coronavirus-kill-rate-mice.html

I immediately note the bullshit clickbait headline that they "created" a virus, when the text makes clear that they are testing a virus that already exists in the pangolin population seven years ago. I don't know how to judge the research being done here currently, but the article does things like quoting a chemist on Twitter about what he thinks about the viral research. I'd be interested to see a reasoned analysis of the work.

I know that as a particle physicist, I would often get people angry and afraid, screaming about how dangerous it was to have nuclear testing going on in their own backyard -- like why didn't we just give up with bombing.

Studying radiation is not the same as creating a nuclear weapon, and studying naturally-occurring viruses is not the same as engineering bioweapons.


After being ground zero of a novel coronavirus, and having the spectre of unanswered questions about gain of function research, I'd think China would have the goddamn sense to lay off any virus research for a good long while.

The presumption here is that its inherently dangerous to scientifically studying things.

No, wrong again. The presumption is that the CCP and Chinese medical/scientific community are a bunch of incompetent, amoral assholes who should not be involved in scientific research of any kind.

Confused are you confusing the CCP with the US CDC and the US NIAID? Those were the guys paying all those incompetent Chinese researchers to do whatever it was they were doing. But what do I know?

One acronym at a time... the list of people and organizations responsible for the mishandling of Covid is long. I'm focusing on China right now.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: jhkim on January 18, 2024, 02:35:32 PM
Here's the Daily Mail article being quoted:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-12969105/chinese-scientists-lab-coronavirus-kill-rate-mice.html

I immediately note the bullshit clickbait headline that they "created" a virus, when the text makes clear that they are testing a virus that already exists in the pangolin population seven years ago. I don't know how to judge the research being done here currently, but the article does things like quoting a chemist on Twitter about what he thinks about the viral research. I'd be interested to see a reasoned analysis of the work.

Once again, jhkim can't help buy lie in his presentation of the article and who commented on the research:

Quote from: Daily Mail
Professor Francois Balloux, an infectious disease expert based at University College London, wrote on Twitter (X): 'It's a terrible study, scientifically totally pointless.

'I can see nothing of vague interest that could be learned from force-infecting a weird breed of humanized mice with a random virus. Conversely, I could see how such stuff might go wrong...'

You immediately cut off the next sentence in the article. From the article:

Quote
Professor Francois Balloux, an infectious disease expert based at University College London, wrote on Twitter (X): 'It's a terrible study, scientifically totally pointless.

'I can see nothing of vague interest that could be learned from force-infecting a weird breed of humanized mice with a random virus. Conversely, I could see how such stuff might go wrong...'

Professor Richard Ebright, a chemist at Rutgers University in New Brunswick, New Jersey, told DailyMail.com he wholeheartedly agreed with Professor Balloux's assessment.

He added: 'The preprint does not specify the biosafety level and biosafety precautions used for the research.

'The absence of this information raises the concerning possibility that part or all of this research, like the research in Wuhan in 2016-2019 that likely caused the Covid-19 pandemic, recklessly was performed without the minimal biosafety containment and practices essential for research with a potential pandemic pathogens.'

They grab a short quote from the Twitter feed of an infectious disease expert -- which criticizes the usefulness of the research, but says nothing specific about what would go wrong. They then interview a chemist to make specific claims about how viral research is unsafe.

They add to this a clickbait title that neither of them said - that the scientists created the pathogen.

To those who say this is just about the Chinese -- the same article cites the Daily Mail's previous supposed expose in Boston.

"EXCLUSIVE: 'This is playing with fire - it could spark a lab-generated pandemic': Experts slam Boston lab where scientists have created a new deadly Omicron strain with an 80% kill rate in mice"

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-11323677/Outrage-Boston-University-CREATES-Covid-strain-80-kill-rate.html

I feel that the Daily Mail is making clickbait fearmongering rather than reasoned assessment. It makes out as if it's totally obvious to anyone without any science training that this research is far too dangerous. I don't have an opinion at this point on what viral research is most important or what types are most useful. I'd want to know a lot more about viral research to have an opinion on it.

I would point to this Science article about the research done in Boston, which presents some varying opinions.

https://www.science.org/content/article/was-study-created-hybrid-covid-19-virus-too-risky
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: squirewaldo on January 18, 2024, 03:24:37 PM


Confused are you confusing the CCP with the US CDC and the US NIAID? Those were the guys paying all those incompetent Chinese researchers to do whatever it was they were doing. But what do I know?

One acronym at a time... the list of people and organizations responsible for the mishandling of Covid is long. I'm focusing on China right now.

Well I will focus on the people and organizations that can actually harm me and mine. The Chinese are too busy fucking with their own people. Amerikans!!!!@@ need to focus on the enemies within. But you be you boo!
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Brad on January 18, 2024, 03:29:40 PM
Well I will focus on the people and organizations that can actually harm me and mine. The Chinese are too busy fucking with their own people. Amerikans!!!!@@ need to focus on the enemies within. But you be you boo!

Are you actually fucking retarded?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: squirewaldo on January 18, 2024, 03:31:51 PM
Well I will focus on the people and organizations that can actually harm me and mine. The Chinese are too busy fucking with their own people. Amerikans!!!!@@ need to focus on the enemies within. But you be you boo!

Are you actually fucking retarded?

Boy, I can't get anything past your keen eyes. Hahahahahahahaha! What a brilliant debater you are!
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ratman_tf on January 18, 2024, 03:43:51 PM


Confused are you confusing the CCP with the US CDC and the US NIAID? Those were the guys paying all those incompetent Chinese researchers to do whatever it was they were doing. But what do I know?

One acronym at a time... the list of people and organizations responsible for the mishandling of Covid is long. I'm focusing on China right now.

Well I will focus on the people and organizations that can actually harm me and mine. The Chinese are too busy fucking with their own people. Amerikans!!!!@@ need to focus on the enemies within. But you be you boo!

Great for you. But the topic was the Chinese scientists doing more viral research on coronaviruses, so your tangent is irrelevant.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: squirewaldo on January 18, 2024, 03:51:37 PM


Confused are you confusing the CCP with the US CDC and the US NIAID? Those were the guys paying all those incompetent Chinese researchers to do whatever it was they were doing. But what do I know?

One acronym at a time... the list of people and organizations responsible for the mishandling of Covid is long. I'm focusing on China right now.

Well I will focus on the people and organizations that can actually harm me and mine. The Chinese are too busy fucking with their own people. Amerikans!!!!@@ need to focus on the enemies within. But you be you boo!

Great for you. But the topic was the Chinese scientists doing more viral research on coronaviruses, so your tangent is irrelevant.

Is that what this whole thread was about???? Wow! I didn't realize that. Thanks for letting me know! I guess I really am a retard!
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: GeekyBugle on January 18, 2024, 05:09:27 PM


Confused are you confusing the CCP with the US CDC and the US NIAID? Those were the guys paying all those incompetent Chinese researchers to do whatever it was they were doing. But what do I know?

One acronym at a time... the list of people and organizations responsible for the mishandling of Covid is long. I'm focusing on China right now.

Well I will focus on the people and organizations that can actually harm me and mine. The Chinese are too busy fucking with their own people. Amerikans!!!!@@ need to focus on the enemies within. But you be you boo!

As proven by the covid kerffufle....

You ARE retarded.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: GeekyBugle on January 18, 2024, 05:13:29 PM
Here's the Daily Mail article being quoted:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-12969105/chinese-scientists-lab-coronavirus-kill-rate-mice.html

I immediately note the bullshit clickbait headline that they "created" a virus, when the text makes clear that they are testing a virus that already exists in the pangolin population seven years ago. I don't know how to judge the research being done here currently, but the article does things like quoting a chemist on Twitter about what he thinks about the viral research. I'd be interested to see a reasoned analysis of the work.

Once again, jhkim can't help buy lie in his presentation of the article and who commented on the research:

Quote from: Daily Mail
Professor Francois Balloux, an infectious disease expert based at University College London, wrote on Twitter (X): 'It's a terrible study, scientifically totally pointless.

'I can see nothing of vague interest that could be learned from force-infecting a weird breed of humanized mice with a random virus. Conversely, I could see how such stuff might go wrong...'

You immediately cut off the next sentence in the article. From the article:

Quote
Professor Francois Balloux, an infectious disease expert based at University College London, wrote on Twitter (X): 'It's a terrible study, scientifically totally pointless.

'I can see nothing of vague interest that could be learned from force-infecting a weird breed of humanized mice with a random virus. Conversely, I could see how such stuff might go wrong...'

Professor Richard Ebright, a chemist at Rutgers University in New Brunswick, New Jersey, told DailyMail.com he wholeheartedly agreed with Professor Balloux's assessment.

He added: 'The preprint does not specify the biosafety level and biosafety precautions used for the research.

'The absence of this information raises the concerning possibility that part or all of this research, like the research in Wuhan in 2016-2019 that likely caused the Covid-19 pandemic, recklessly was performed without the minimal biosafety containment and practices essential for research with a potential pandemic pathogens.'

They grab a short quote from the Twitter feed of an infectious disease expert -- which criticizes the usefulness of the research, but says nothing specific about what would go wrong. They then interview a chemist to make specific claims about how viral research is unsafe.

They add to this a clickbait title that neither of them said - that the scientists created the pathogen.

To those who say this is just about the Chinese -- the same article cites the Daily Mail's previous supposed expose in Boston.

"EXCLUSIVE: 'This is playing with fire - it could spark a lab-generated pandemic': Experts slam Boston lab where scientists have created a new deadly Omicron strain with an 80% kill rate in mice"

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-11323677/Outrage-Boston-University-CREATES-Covid-strain-80-kill-rate.html

I feel that the Daily Mail is making clickbait fearmongering rather than reasoned assessment. It makes out as if it's totally obvious to anyone without any science training that this research is far too dangerous. I don't have an opinion at this point on what viral research is most important or what types are most useful. I'd want to know a lot more about viral research to have an opinion on it.

I would point to this Science article about the research done in Boston, which presents some varying opinions.

https://www.science.org/content/article/was-study-created-hybrid-covid-19-virus-too-risky

Are you saying the Chemist concerns are unfounded? Or are you saying we shouldn't listen to him because he's a lowly chemist?

Here I was thinking we all knew the ChiCom labs ARE known for their shoddy security, as proven by the covid pandemic.

Or maybe you're so used to defflection you just do it without even thinking?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ratman_tf on January 18, 2024, 08:23:56 PM


Confused are you confusing the CCP with the US CDC and the US NIAID? Those were the guys paying all those incompetent Chinese researchers to do whatever it was they were doing. But what do I know?

One acronym at a time... the list of people and organizations responsible for the mishandling of Covid is long. I'm focusing on China right now.

Well I will focus on the people and organizations that can actually harm me and mine. The Chinese are too busy fucking with their own people. Amerikans!!!!@@ need to focus on the enemies within. But you be you boo!

Great for you. But the topic was the Chinese scientists doing more viral research on coronaviruses, so your tangent is irrelevant.

Is that what this whole thread was about???? Wow! I didn't realize that. Thanks for letting me know! I guess I really am a retard!

I didn't say the whole thread. You replied to my reply about the Chinese doing more viral research.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Grognard GM on January 19, 2024, 12:24:05 AM


Confused are you confusing the CCP with the US CDC and the US NIAID? Those were the guys paying all those incompetent Chinese researchers to do whatever it was they were doing. But what do I know?

One acronym at a time... the list of people and organizations responsible for the mishandling of Covid is long. I'm focusing on China right now.

Well I will focus on the people and organizations that can actually harm me and mine. The Chinese are too busy fucking with their own people. Amerikans!!!!@@ need to focus on the enemies within. But you be you boo!

Oh, Covid20 will be a special virus that only infects Mainland Chinese?

Whew, that's a weight off my mind. You're right, worry over.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: squirewaldo on January 19, 2024, 09:35:23 AM


Confused are you confusing the CCP with the US CDC and the US NIAID? Those were the guys paying all those incompetent Chinese researchers to do whatever it was they were doing. But what do I know?

One acronym at a time... the list of people and organizations responsible for the mishandling of Covid is long. I'm focusing on China right now.

Well I will focus on the people and organizations that can actually harm me and mine. The Chinese are too busy fucking with their own people. Amerikans!!!!@@ need to focus on the enemies within. But you be you boo!

Oh, Covid20 will be a special virus that only infects Mainland Chinese?

Whew, that's a weight off my mind. You're right, worry over.

You guys worry about a virus which was no worse than the flu.

I worry about the people who actually caused all the harm -- the ones who locked us up like prisoners, forced us to wear masks that are more dangerous than the virus, and tried to force us to take a vaccine that is at best untested.

The virus seems to have disappeared or at least become irrelevant. The people who did all this are still there. And they are in Washington DC, not China. But whatever. I am sure it will all work out great if we focus on the evil of China!
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ratman_tf on January 19, 2024, 02:06:06 PM


Confused are you confusing the CCP with the US CDC and the US NIAID? Those were the guys paying all those incompetent Chinese researchers to do whatever it was they were doing. But what do I know?

One acronym at a time... the list of people and organizations responsible for the mishandling of Covid is long. I'm focusing on China right now.

Well I will focus on the people and organizations that can actually harm me and mine. The Chinese are too busy fucking with their own people. Amerikans!!!!@@ need to focus on the enemies within. But you be you boo!

Oh, Covid20 will be a special virus that only infects Mainland Chinese?

Whew, that's a weight off my mind. You're right, worry over.

You guys worry about a virus which was no worse than the flu.

I'm worried that China will manage to brew up something worse if they keep tinkering, and it will get out into the general world population, just like Covid.

Quote
I worry about the people who actually caused all the harm -- the ones who locked us up like prisoners, forced us to wear masks that are more dangerous than the virus, and tried to force us to take a vaccine that is at best untested.

I have, in this very thread, often, and seriously, argued that the FDA, the CDC, and everyone in government, like Fauci, should at the very least be fired for their incompetence and downright malevlolence over the Covid measures. I'd like to see them investigated for possible criminal charges and for unconstitutional policies as well.

Quote
The virus seems to have disappeared or at least become irrelevant. The people who did all this are still there. And they are in Washington DC, not China. But whatever. I am sure it will all work out great if we focus on the evil of China!

We should remember that China cooked up Covid, let it get out and infect the whole goddamn world.  They too are still there. They are irresponsible, incompetent, and brewing up new virsues as we speak.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: oggsmash on January 19, 2024, 05:18:54 PM
  The really important thing to remember is nothing happened to anyone who triggered that mess and made it exponentially worse with their bad decisions.  We can all remember whatever factoid we want, reality is those people did what they wanted, did big damage, and profited from it.  All while programming around 40 percent of the population to declare you must be a PhD virologist to comment on the virus, or a PhD in biology to understand a man is a man and a woman is a woman.   The ship is sunk IMO, it just takes a really long time to start to actually go down. 
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: GeekyBugle on January 27, 2024, 02:23:08 AM
Nothing to see here citizens, please carry on.

Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: 3catcircus on February 12, 2024, 10:49:40 PM
  The really important thing to remember is nothing happened to anyone who triggered that mess and made it exponentially worse with their bad decisions.  We can all remember whatever factoid we want, reality is those people did what they wanted, did big damage, and profited from it.  All while programming around 40 percent of the population to declare you must be a PhD virologist to comment on the virus, or a PhD in biology to understand a man is a man and a woman is a woman.   The ship is sunk IMO, it just takes a really long time to start to actually go down.

Yep. Every single one of them should be fired. As for those who orchestrated it, they should all be tortured until they reveal who their paymasters were and then summarily buried alive.  I'm willing to bet that Baric, Fauci, and Daszak probably took some type of payment from the ChiComs that directly led to where we were in March of 2020.  All of the conspiracy theories will eventually turn out to actually be the truth.

To put things in perspective, I currently have covid. It was a day of a scratchy throat, a day of a 101 fever, a few days of sinus pressure, a day of sneezing and runny nose, and additional sniffles and that's about it. The only reason I know is because my doctor decided to pare it down to decide if I needed antibiotics by seeing - is it covid, a bacterial sinus infection, strep, or the flu.  His Rx? Drink more water, use saline rinse for your nose, take an allergy pill to dry up the sinus congestion.

I do get to work from home through the week, so that's a bonus.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: squirewaldo on February 13, 2024, 10:22:01 AM
  The really important thing to remember is nothing happened to anyone who triggered that mess and made it exponentially worse with their bad decisions.  We can all remember whatever factoid we want, reality is those people did what they wanted, did big damage, and profited from it.  All while programming around 40 percent of the population to declare you must be a PhD virologist to comment on the virus, or a PhD in biology to understand a man is a man and a woman is a woman.   The ship is sunk IMO, it just takes a really long time to start to actually go down.

Yup.  :'(

It looks like Western Civilization is on its last leg, or is already gone, and what has replaced it is a pathetic facsimile of the real thing. And on an emotional level I think everyone knows. Particularly the Europeans since they have been on the sinking ship longer than Americans. Its like the 5 Stages of Grief. The first stage is denial, then anger, bargaining, and depression, but eventually you get to acceptance. At least you are supposed to...
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: nielspeterdejong on February 14, 2024, 10:52:09 AM
No, the ones in charge (follow the money, which usually leads to radical members of the "small hat tribe", such as George Soros or the CEO's of companies like Blackrock) want you to "accept" it.

They flooded Europe with non-native europeans, hoping to perform a sort of replacement where the people would be a (in their own words, look up the Kalergi plan) "mixed negroid race" and would be easier to control as effective slaves through means such as wellfare and governent dependancy. Not to mention all the "environmental friendly measures" which basically strained small businesses but didn't affect the mega corporations, like with the lockdowns. These people also want to reduce carbon, but what they don't mention is that YOU are the carbon. The less people, the easier they are to be controlled after all.

The thing is, there IS a solution to the problem. And I believe that when push comes to shove people will finally perform said solution. Unfortunately, when it does, things will get very very ugly, while it could all have been avoided. Remember, while there are still those who believe the illusions created by the mainstream media, once the economy collapses and the food shortages start such illusions will quickly be cast aside in the face of starvation. And the self proclaimed "anti-racists" will only have themselves to blame. Though I strongly doubt that their narcisistic egos will allow them to finally see their own flaws, even in the face of an increasingly uglier reality.
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: squirewaldo on February 14, 2024, 07:40:57 PM
No, the ones in charge (follow the money, which usually leads to radical members of the "small hat tribe", such as George Soros or the CEO's of companies like Blackrock) want you to "accept" it.

They flooded Europe with non-native europeans, hoping to perform a sort of replacement where the people would be a (in their own words, look up the Kalergi plan) "mixed negroid race" and would be easier to control as effective slaves through means such as wellfare and governent dependancy. Not to mention all the "environmental friendly measures" which basically strained small businesses but didn't affect the mega corporations, like with the lockdowns. These people also want to reduce carbon, but what they don't mention is that YOU are the carbon. The less people, the easier they are to be controlled after all.

The thing is, there IS a solution to the problem. And I believe that when push comes to shove people will finally perform said solution. Unfortunately, when it does, things will get very very ugly, while it could all have been avoided. Remember, while there are still those who believe the illusions created by the mainstream media, once the economy collapses and the food shortages start such illusions will quickly be cast aside in the face of starvation. And the self proclaimed "anti-racists" will only have themselves to blame. Though I strongly doubt that their narcisistic egos will allow them to finally see their own flaws, even in the face of an increasingly uglier reality.

I think you misunderstand the nature of the 'acceptance' suggested. To just accept the facts of what is happening is almost impossible for most people in the West. They first deny its happening, then they get angry at your for telling them the truth, and on and on. Until people will accept the truth, no matter how painful, they cannot accept and they cannot act accordingly. Acceptance is required before any positive action will take place. But that is on an individual basis. Perhaps entire nations and societies can be kept in denial for ever?
Title: Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
Post by: Ratman_tf on February 22, 2024, 05:44:41 PM


(https://media.tenor.com/ye4yv3SZBykAAAAM/good-family-guy.gif)