Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!

[oggsmash]

 But I would not disagree Nazis should have been stopped.  Reality is the world did not know just how bad they were until they were actually rolling over people in full war.   it was a little late then.  I would also say commies should have been stopped.  Then there never is a Korean War.  Had both been stamped out at their beginnings, the world would be a better place.  But, the reality is, people have to get their own shit together first.  Meaning take care of yourself, immediate family, circle of family and friends, local community, etc.  That circle only needs to expand when the smaller circle is in good shape.  The USA now, for certain needs a no foreign action policy.  Those smaller circles of concern are for shit right now. 

   I do have the benefit of looking back with hindsight, just as anyone does, and we are in the mess we are in because we have people who say some wars are just and others are not.  War is never just IMO, because it will always involve your army going into enemy territory, and a whole lot of people get killed who likely might not have been for the war in the first place (even germany had Dresden get turned to ash, and I have doubt many of those old people and women were huge supporters of German aggression, as well as Berlin literally getting raped for weeks by Russian troops) because the governments of their nations are likely to not give a whole lot of choices on the matter.   So really, a war of defense, where you are killing enemy soldiers entering your territory is really the only war you have a chance of calling "just", because otherwise you are going to kill a bunch of old people, women, and kids who were not, and never were fighting.  That is just reality, and a bunch of pussies with cone heads in the state department do not give two shits.  Largely this is because they do not give two shits about our people, so they damn sure do not care about people in another place. 

   I used some strong language with you Mr Kim, and that was over the line.  I just get a bit tired of cone headed shitbirds in the state department yammering on about american values and going over into someone else's country and doing their fighting for them against people who have offered us no threat.   I do not like to hear people talking military intervention who have likely never even been in a fist fight in their entire lives.   The country is (maybe was) FULL of people, especially republicans who were very quick to jump into foreign adventures.  So I suppose I would rank wars we should have been in or not the past 200 years, and if I did WW2, because it happened I can agree it had to happen, but it is pretty much the only one.  But I do not live in the past, nor can I change it.  I can do my best to argue better choices moving forward.   People are emotional, and easily swayed by propaganda.   They also seem much more easily swayed when their "team" is the one calling for war, strangely enough.  This is the benefit I feel free in having  no team, I can be against a war at all times for the simple moral reason, it is almost always wrong. 

[dkabq]

It is NR, so take it with whatever size grain of salt you need.
https://www.nationalreview.com/2022/02/leana-wens-180-degree-reversal-on-masks/

If anyone comes across a take on this from the M5M, I would be interested to see it.

[oggsmash]

It is NR, so take it with whatever size grain of salt you need.
https://www.nationalreview.com/2022/02/leana-wens-180-degree-reversal-on-masks/

If anyone comes across a take on this from the M5M, I would be interested to see it.

  To be fair to her, she keeps getting different talking points sent to her from above.  I am sure once the final polling is done she will have the proper scientific answer for everyone.

[Ghostmaker]

It is NR, so take it with whatever size grain of salt you need.
https://www.nationalreview.com/2022/02/leana-wens-180-degree-reversal-on-masks/

If anyone comes across a take on this from the M5M, I would be interested to see it.

  To be fair to her, she keeps getting different talking points sent to her from above.  I am sure once the final polling is done she will have the proper scientific answer for everyone.

That's because the current junta knows the current situation is untenable. But if they start backing off, not only do they start losing the power they've gained, their loyal cultists will wig out.

[dkabq]

It is NR, so take it with whatever size grain of salt you need.
https://www.nationalreview.com/2022/02/leana-wens-180-degree-reversal-on-masks/

If anyone comes across a take on this from the M5M, I would be interested to see it.

  To be fair to her, she keeps getting different talking points sent to her from above.  I am sure once the final polling is done she will have the proper scientific answer for everyone.

To be fair...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jv7jcciKB_s

Was triple-masked triple-layered ever a CDC talking point? (why can't it read?!?)

[oggsmash]

It is NR, so take it with whatever size grain of salt you need.
https://www.nationalreview.com/2022/02/leana-wens-180-degree-reversal-on-masks/

If anyone comes across a take on this from the M5M, I would be interested to see it.

  To be fair to her, she keeps getting different talking points sent to her from above.  I am sure once the final polling is done she will have the proper scientific answer for everyone.

To be fair...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jv7jcciKB_s

Was triple-masked ever a CDC talking point?

  Those are not her bosses giving her talking points.

[dkabq]

Apparently now focus groups = SCIENCE!(tm)
https://youtu.be/Bcq5YqCqagI?t=323

[jhkim]

War is never just IMO, because it will always involve your army going into enemy territory, and a whole lot of people get killed who likely might not have been for the war in the first place (even germany had Dresden get turned to ash, and I have doubt many of those old people and women were huge supporters of German aggression, as well as Berlin literally getting raped for weeks by Russian troops) because the governments of their nations are likely to not give a whole lot of choices on the matter.   So really, a war of defense, where you are killing enemy soldiers entering your territory is really the only war you have a chance of calling "just", because otherwise you are going to kill a bunch of old people, women, and kids who were not, and never were fighting.

This is close to my position. A just war is a defensive war, fought to respond to aggression. War inherently involves killing - but  deterring aggression reduces killing overall. Killing civilians is worse than killing soldiers - but killing soldiers still isn't good. They could be teenagers who were drafted and no more culpable than civilians. But allowing wars of aggression to proceed without resistance doesn't reduce violence overall - it encourages it.

If country A invades country B, then not only is country B justified in fighting back, but countries C and D are justified in helping repel the aggression. What we want is for it to be clear that wars of aggression are not tolerated. If all of A, B, C, and D know that if they start a war, then the others will turn against them -- then the result is a world with less war.

Edited to add:  Using vets to say a war was just is a bad metric.  NO ONE who is in a military conflict where they see friends and comrades die(and often a lot of them) is going to want to think on any level what they were involved with was a waste of time not needed.  Combat veterans also tend to agree largely with what the propaganda around the war says as well, isnt it odd how many Vietnam vets were against the war?  Which mirrored the pushed propaganda in the media?  People who were in the desert wars also say they felt it was needed and just.  Watching a friend die is going to affect you a lot on how you view something like that.  Going through it with guys you rely on to stay alive and doing your part to keeping them alive forges a bond that can only be found in combat.   Those things are going to affect your view of the conflict in a way that is frankly, going to be about as far from objective as you can get.

Back in reply #1237, you were dismissive of the opinions of those who hadn't fought because they have zero understanding of the consequences. But now you're also dismissing the opinions of those who *have* fought because they can't be objective.

I think one can disagree with the opinions of either, but neither group can be dismissed. I'm not saying veterans are always right - but their opinions can't be dismissed, just as people who aren't veterans can't have their opinions dismissed just because they aren't veterans.

[oggsmash]

War is never just IMO, because it will always involve your army going into enemy territory, and a whole lot of people get killed who likely might not have been for the war in the first place (even germany had Dresden get turned to ash, and I have doubt many of those old people and women were huge supporters of German aggression, as well as Berlin literally getting raped for weeks by Russian troops) because the governments of their nations are likely to not give a whole lot of choices on the matter.   So really, a war of defense, where you are killing enemy soldiers entering your territory is really the only war you have a chance of calling "just", because otherwise you are going to kill a bunch of old people, women, and kids who were not, and never were fighting.

This is close to my position. A just war is a defensive war, fought to respond to aggression. War inherently involves killing - but  deterring aggression reduces killing overall. Killing civilians is worse than killing soldiers - but killing soldiers still isn't good. They could be teenagers who were drafted and no more culpable than civilians. But allowing wars of aggression to proceed without resistance doesn't reduce violence overall - it encourages it.

If country A invades country B, then not only is country B justified in fighting back, but countries C and D are justified in helping repel the aggression. What we want is for it to be clear that wars of aggression are not tolerated. If all of A, B, C, and D know that if they start a war, then the others will turn against them -- then the result is a world with less war.

Edited to add:  Using vets to say a war was just is a bad metric.  NO ONE who is in a military conflict where they see friends and comrades die(and often a lot of them) is going to want to think on any level what they were involved with was a waste of time not needed.  Combat veterans also tend to agree largely with what the propaganda around the war says as well, isnt it odd how many Vietnam vets were against the war?  Which mirrored the pushed propaganda in the media?  People who were in the desert wars also say they felt it was needed and just.  Watching a friend die is going to affect you a lot on how you view something like that.  Going through it with guys you rely on to stay alive and doing your part to keeping them alive forges a bond that can only be found in combat.   Those things are going to affect your view of the conflict in a way that is frankly, going to be about as far from objective as you can get.

Back in reply #1237, you were dismissive of the opinions of those who hadn't fought because they have zero understanding of the consequences. But now you're also dismissing the opinions of those who *have* fought because they can't be objective.

I think one can disagree with the opinions of either, but neither group can be dismissed. I'm not saying veterans are always right - but their opinions can't be dismissed, just as people who aren't veterans can't have their opinions dismissed just because they aren't veterans.

     No, I can dismiss whatever I want.  You do not have to agree with that, I do give more weight to people who had to bleed, but wrong is still wrong.  War is wrong.  If you are for it, so be it.

[jhkim]

     No, I can dismiss whatever I want.  You do not have to agree with that, I do give more weight to people who had to bleed, but wrong is still wrong.  War is wrong.  If you are for it, so be it.

OK, fair enough. At least we've elaborated on our positions. I hope you're doing well.

[oggsmash]

     No, I can dismiss whatever I want.  You do not have to agree with that, I do give more weight to people who had to bleed, but wrong is still wrong.  War is wrong.  If you are for it, so be it.

OK, fair enough. At least we've elaborated on our positions. I hope you're doing well.

  I also want to elaborate, this is one subject I am just simply not open to discussion on.  I just have no interest in being swayed, convinced or hearing a counter, so it is not so much a dismissal, as there is simply nothing anyone can say to make me change my mind on this one.   As for how I am doing, well I caught covid while recovering from surgery (finally went to the doctor for my torn pectoral, and it was a grade 3 blow out, so I got a cadaver tendon to reattach that) which was inconvenient for physical therapy, but to be honest I was a little underwhelmed given all the hype around covid.   But 3 more months and I will have two fully functional sides (meaning I can throw and choke people again). So I am doing well, but on my scale, I hope you are doing better. 

[Ratman_tf]

(finally went to the doctor for my torn pectoral, and it was a grade 3 blow out, so I got a cadaver tendon to reattach that)

Well, today I learned that that is a thing.

[oggsmash]

(finally went to the doctor for my torn pectoral, and it was a grade 3 blow out, so I got a cadaver tendon to reattach that)

Well, today I learned that that is a thing.

  Yeah, apparently achilles tendons from folks who have expired made the best material.  I had heard of replacement knees from a cadaver (I think Tito Ortiz was the first person I ever heard of getting one).

[dkabq]

A summary of St. Fauci's flip-flopping:
https://www.newsweek.com/how-fauci-fooled-america-opinion-1643839

[Kiero]

Open letter to our health authorities to stop jabbing kids, and not to extend the rollout to 5-11 year olds: https://www.hartgroup.org/open-letter-to-the-jcvi-pause-vaccines-for-children-pending-urgent-review/

Dear Professor Wei, Professor Whitty and Mr Javid,

We wrote to you and also the MHRA last month regarding urgent investigation of the acknowledged increase in all-cause mortality in males aged 15-19, since the Pfizer covid vaccine rollout commenced in this age group in May 2021. ONS have acknowledged in the High Court in London, that the figure of 402 excess deaths is significantly higher than the previous 5 year average of 337 deaths. It has proved impossible to get the actual data.  Indeed, they stated it is probably an underestimate because of delays for coroners' cases.  This equates to at least two additional teenage boys dying each week of the roll-out, possibly more.   It is thus very disappointing not to have received any response.

We are writing further to ask you to pause the vaccines for children while you undertake and publish an urgent review of the risk/benefit analysis. In August 2021 you concluded that there was no medical justification for vaccinating healthy 12-15-year-olds, with the authorisation based on an aim to reduce school closures. But this new safety signal and the impact of this uncertainty must affect your assessment of the risk to benefits.

Since that date, much has changed. The latest omicron variant has been shown to have a much lower risk of serious illness, hospitalisations and deaths than the previous alpha and delta variants circulating at the time of the decision.  This is true for children as well as adults, so given the extremely low risk for children in previous waves, any potential for benefit must surely have dwindled to virtually zero. Also, in your analysis you failed to take due regard to naturally-acquired immunity, now demonstrated and widely accepted to be superior to vaccine acquired immunity. Children have had high rates of infection throughout recent weeks with at least 80% now estimated to be immune. In addition, the efficacy of Pfizer against omicron compared to previous variants is reduced to the point where infection rates are now higher in the vaccinated than the unvaccinated removing any potential indirect benefit to immune-compromised family members and perversely creating an increased risk to contacts of the vaccinated.   

On the risks side of the balance sheet, we have further information regarding myocarditis, with an occurrence rate of 1/2680 young men in Hong Kong, where unlike the UK, this was sought systematically from the start of their rollout. Indeed they paused their second dose, just as the UK moved from one to two doses. Data from the US also confirm high rates of 1/9443 in males aged 16-17 after their second dose. We still have no follow-up data on the increasing number of children reported from the US with significant abnormalities on their cardiac MRI scans. We also have worrying information on all-cause mortality by vaccination status, which even from the original adult Pfizer trial showed a higher mortality for the vaccinated group. Side effects are higher when vaccinating those already immune. Other side effects such as increased blood clots will all be playing a part in this balance of risk. Non-fatal adverse events, particularly neurological, have the potential to blight the lives of affected children.

The latest information from the CDC is very worrying, that of 4149 injured children, 100 (2.41%) had a serious adverse event, 15/4149 (0.36%) had increased troponin (12 confirmed to be myocarditis), 12/4149 (0.29%) had seizures, 2/4149 (0.048%) died (being evaluated). This in itself is a reason to review. To clarify, this is 4149 non-serious adverse events and 100 serious adverse events reported in a total of ~8 million doses to this age group which is 1 in 80,000 but we know that VAERS is a gross underestimate.

Furthermore, there is increasing evidence of impairment of immune function particularly following multiple doses of vaccine. Israel is now seeing serious illness and death after the fourth vaccine dose. There is also new bio-distribution data showing that mRNA and spike protein, far from being eliminated within a few days, are still persisting for 60 days or more. We have no knowledge of the long-term implications of vaccinating children against what is now acknowledged to be a very mild illness for them, indeed with 50% having no symptoms whatsoever.

With the arrival of omicron, SARS-CoV-2 has moved from pandemic to endemic. If the current situation had existed six months ago, there would have been no case made for commencing routine rollout for healthy children. Now, it is proposed that even those testing positive for omicron do not need to isolate. If omicron is no risk to others, why vaccinate? The prospect now of widening the coverage to 5-11s would be all the more ludicrous. We should, like Norway & Sweden, make clear that vaccination for this age group is simply not necessary. 

The time has now come to pause and acknowledge that there is no emergency for children and that for them the balance of benefit and risk now clearly favours natural immunity. On that basis the routine programme could and should be halted. Failure to act will lay you open to liability for ongoing harms.

We would like to meet with you urgently, in order to support you in taking stock of all of the pertinent new and emerging data.

Yours sincerely,

    Dr Rosamond Jones, MBBS, MD, FRCPCH, retired consultant paediatrician, convener CCVAG (Children's Covid Vaccines Advisory Group)
    Professor Keith Willison, PhD, Professor of Chemical Biology, Imperial, London
    Professor David Livermore, BSc, PhD, Professor of Medical Microbiology, University of East Anglia
    Professor Anthony J Brookes, Professor of Genomics and Health Data Science, University of Leicester
    Professor Richard Ennos, MA, PhD. Honorary Professorial Fellow, University of Edinburgh
    Professor Angus Dalgleish, MD, FRCP, FRACP, FRCPath, FMed Sci, Professor of Oncology, St Georges Hospital, London
    Professor John Fairclough FRCS FFSEM retired Honorary Consultant Surgeon
    Professor Norman Fenton, CEng, CMath, PhD, FBCS, MIET, Professor of Risk Information Management, Queen Mary University of London
    Professor Anthony Fryer, PhD FRCPath, Professor of Clinical Biochemistry
    Lord Moonie,  MBChB, MRCPsych, MFCM, MSc, House of Lords, former parliamentary under-secretary of state 2001-2003, former consultant in Public Health Medicine
    Dr Theresa Lawrie, MBBCh, PhD, Director, Evidence-Based Medicine Consultancy Ltd, Bath
    Dr John Flack, BPharm, PhD. Retired Director of Safety Evaluation, Beecham Pharmaceuticals
    1980-1989 and Senior Vice-president for Drug Discovery 1990-92 SmithKline Beecham
    Dr Roland Salmon, MB BS, MRCGP, FFPH, Former Director, Communicable Disease Surveillance Centre Wales
    Dr Alan Mordue, MBChB, FFPH. Retired Consultant in Public Health Medicine & Epidemiology
    Dr Gerry Quinn, PhD. Postdoctoral researcher in microbiology and immunology
    Katherine MacGilchrist, BSc (Hons), MSc, CEO/Systematic Review Director, Epidemica Ltd.
    Mr James Royle, MBChB, FRCS, MMedEd, Colorectal surgeon
    Dr Livia Tossici-Bolt, PhD, Clinical Scientist
    Dr Elizabeth Evans MA(Cantab), MBBS, DRCOG, Retired Doctor
    Dr Rohaan Seth, Bsc (hons), MBChB (hons), MRCGP, Retired General Practitioner
    Dr Emma Brierly, MRCGP, General Practitioner
    Dr Geoffrey Maidment, MD, FRCP, retired consultant physician
    Mr Malcolm Loudon, MBChB, MD, FRCSEd, FRCS(Gen Surg), MIHM,VR, Consultant Surgeon
    Dr Alan Black, MBBS, MSc, DipPharmMed, retired pharmaceutical physician
    Dr David Cartland, MBChB, BMedSci, General practitioner
    Dr Peter Chan, BM, MRCS, MRCGP, NLP, General Practitioner, Functional medicine practitioner
    Dr Greta Mushet, MBChB, MRCPsych, retired Consultant Psychiatrist in Psychotherapy
    Dr Samuel McBride, MBBCh, BAO, BSc, MSc, MRCP (UK) FRCEM, FRCP (Edinburgh), NHS Emergency Medicine & geriatrics
    Mr Ian F Comaish, MA, BM BCh, FRCOphth, FRANZCO, Consultant ophthalmologist
    Dr Branko Latinkic, BSc, PhD, Reader in Biosciences
    Dr Helen Westwood MBChB MRCGP DCH DRCOG, General Practitioner
    Michael Cockayne, MSc, PGDip, SCPHNOH, BA, RN, Occupational Health Practitioner
    Mr Anthony Hinton, MBChB, FRCS, Consultant ENT surgeon, London
    Dr Tanya Klymenko, PhD, FHEA, FIBMS, Senior lecturer in Biomedical Sciences
    Michael Cockayne, MSc, PGDip, SCPHNOH, BA, RN, Occupational Health Practitioner
    Dr Carmen Wheatley, DPhil, Orthomolecular Oncology
    Dr Charles Lane OBE, Molecular Biologist
    Mr Angus Robertson BSc (Med. Sci.) MB ChB  FRCS(Ed) FFSEM(UK) Consultant Orthopaedic Surgeon
    Dr Michael D Bell, MBChB MRCGP Retired General Practitioner
    Dr Jayne LM Donegan, MBBS, DRCOG, DCH, DFFP, MRCGP, General Practitioner
    Dr David Critchley, BSc, PhD in Pharmacology, 32 years' experience in Pharmaceutical R&D
    Dr Keith Johnson, BA, D.Phil (Oxon), IP Consultant for Diagnostic Testing
    Julie Annakin, RN, Immunisation Specialist Nurse
    Rev Dr William J U Philip MB ChB, MRCP, BD, Senior Minister The Tron Church, Glasgow, formerly physician specialising in cardiology
    Dr Jonathan Rogers MBChB (Bristol) MRCGP DRCOG Retired NHS General Practitioner
    Dr Pauline Jones, MB BS, Retired General Practitioner
    Dr Emma Brierly, MBBS, MRCGP, General Practitioner
    Dr Elizabeth Burton, MB ChB, Retired General Practitioner
    Dr Franziska Meuschel, MD, ND, PhD, LFHom, BSEM, Nutritional, Environmental and Integrated Medicine
    Dr Michael Bazlinton, MBCHB MRCGP DCH
    Dr Holly Young, BSc, MBChB, MRCP, Consultant Palliative Care Medicine
    Dr Julian Tomkinson, MBChB, MRCGP, General Practitioner, GP Trainer, PCME
    Dr David Bramble, MBChB, MRCPsych, MD, Consultant Psychiatrist
    Dr Christina Peers, MBBS, DRCOG, DFSRH, FFSRH, Menopause Specialist
    Dr Chris Newton, PhD, Biochemist working in immuno-metabolism
    Dr Christopher Exley, PhD, FRSB, Bioinoganic Chemist
    Dr Sarah Myhill, MBBS, Retired General Practitioner
    Jessica Righart, Senior Critical Care Scientist
    Dr Michael D Bell, MBChB, MRCGP, retired General Practitioner
    Dr Angharad Powell, MBChB, General Practitioner
    Dr Stephen Ting, MB CHB, MRCP, PhD, Consultant Physician
    Mr Ahmad K Malik, FRCS (Tr & Orth), Dip Med Sport, Consultant Trauma & Orthopaedic Surgeon
    Dr Catherine Hatton, MBChB, General Practitioner
    Dr Kulvinder S. Manik MBChB, MRCGP, MA(Cantab), LLM, Gray's Inn
    Dr Stefanie Williams, MD, Dermatologist
    Kim Bull, Foundation Degree in Paramedic Science, Paramedic
    Margaret Moss, MA (Cantab), CBiol, MRSB, Director, The Nutrition and Allergy Clinic, Cheshire
    Dr Haleema Sheikh, MRCGP, General Practitioner
    James Cook, NHS Registered Nurse, Bachelor of Nursing (Hons), Master of Public Health (MPH)
    Dr Jonathan Engler, MBChB, LlB (Hons), DipPharmMed
    Dr Clare Craig, BMBCh, FRCPath, Pathologist
    Dr David Bell, MBBS, PhD, FRCP(UK), Public Health Physician
    Dr Ruth Wilde, MB BCh, MRCEM, AFMCP, Integrative & Functional Medicine Doctor
    John Collis, RN, Specialist Nurse Practitioner
    Dr Damien Downing, MBBS, MRSB, private physician
    Mr Lasantha Wijesinghe, FRCS, Consultant Vascular Surgeon
    Dr Claire Mottram, BSc Hons, MBChB, Doctor in General Practice
    Dr Ali Haggett, Mental health community work, 3rd sector, former lecturer in the history of medicine
    Dr Jenny Goodman, MA, MBChB, Ecological Medicine
    Suzanne Tomkinson BSc MSc CSci FIBMS Senior Biomedical Scientist (Clinical Biochemistry)
    Dr Felicity Lillingstone, IMD DHS PhD ANP, Doctor, Urgent Care, Research Fellow
    Dr Marco Chiesa, MD, FRCPsych, Consultant Psychiatrist & Visiting Professor, UCL
    Anna Phillips, RSCN, BSc Hons, Clinical Lead Trainer Clinical Systems (Paediatric Intensive Care)
    Dr Jason Lester, MRCP, FRCR, Consultant Clinical Oncologist
    Dr Sue de Lacy MBBS MRCGP AFMCP UK Integrative Medicine Doctor
    Dr David Morris, MBChB, MRCP (UK), General Practitioner
    Dr Andrew Isaac, MB BCh, Physician, retired
    Dr Renee Hoenderkamp, General Practitioner
    Dr Noel Thomas, MA, MBChB, DObsRCOG, DTM&H, MFHom, Retired Doctor
    Dr Fiona Martindale, MBChB, MRCGP, General Practitioner in out of hours
    Dr Zac Cox, BDS, LCPH, Dental Practitioner
    Mr Colin Natali, BSc(hons) MBBS, FRCS (Orth), Consultant Spinal Surgeon