Question on Amber 'tropes'

[jibbajibba]

Simple question.

How much has the Amber RPG been influenced by what might be considered superficial narrative choices in the books?

By this I mean are there any things in the books that are quite trivial but have a huge affect on the game .

The most obvious to me is Benedict. Benedict is both a great warrior and a great tactician and general. These two things are not directly linked. Zelazny could easily have had a great warrior called Benedict and a great general, master tactician called Oscar who was crippled and hopeless at combat (there is a similar character in one of the Druss books I think).
This reasonably trivial change would have had a big effect on the game.

A few other examples might be The benefits of a Demon Form in terms of strength and combat, Caine's ability to eavesdrop on trumps without being an artist (this is one is actually counter intuitive as the game overrides the book) etc etc...

I am curious as I do away with elders and so have more scope to create new archetypes, powers etc.

[The Yann Waters]

You know, I wonder why TV Tropes doesn't actually feature an article for the game itself, despite the useless link in the main entry for Amber.

[Trevelyan]

I think the entire flavour of the setting as presented in ADRPG is excessively influenced by the fact that the events of the Corwin series happen during a period of political termoil. The evidence form the books themselves suggest that, while the Amberites were a bunch of spoilt brats, they lived a largely straight forward life in Amber interspersed with occasional rivalries which rarely resulted in anything more serious than a few nasty or dangerous pranks. Eric's rivalry with Corwin was clearly the most agressive of the lot, and other siblings resorted to far mroe petty things than trying to kill rivals, with Julian, for example, contriving only to have Morganstern attack Crowin in the presence of multiple witnesses (while potentially lethal for a shadow dweller this seems far less so for an Amberite). Court politics seems historically limited to attempts to gain Oberon's favour, and the notion of an actual fratricide is shocking to most of the family and clearly beyond what even Oberon is willing to tolerate.

At the end of Courts of Chaos (IIRC), Corwin notes that his family seems to have matured as a result of recent events, although some family members (Benedict and Gerard) were perhaps more mature to begin with. The family is likened to a group of children who have been forced to mature and appreciate one another as a result fo recent troubles. True, Random fears a return to the old family squables when Caine is killed, but he never voices a concern that the family might try to userp him, merely that if they retreat into a position of mutual distrust then they will be easier prey for any enemy with a grudge to bear.

Yet ADRPG focuses heavily on intraparty conflict and goes to lengths to establish rivalries between PCs. In the books this is background, with the central story looking at ways in which a formerly disperate family united in the face of a common foe, and in the Merlin series, the tale is one of friendship and family bonds uniting former enemies against more ambiguous threats (Luke and Jurt, both of whom have attempted to kill Merlin previously and do so again in the early books end up as allies). Indeed, the one example of attempted fratricide in the Merlin series (discounting Dalt vs. his family, which was a wider issue) was Jurt vs. Merlin, and again, Jurt is considered a dangerous loose cannon by the rest of his siblings for getting this carried away.

Throughout all the books we see a family which has previously behaved like somewhat vicous children learning to work together, and yet ADRPG encourages the childish behaviour that the story which inspired it was all about overcoming.

[weilide]

Trevelyan: couldn't have said it better myself.

[jibbajibba]

I can see sense in that but actually I think as a game Erick hit a better tone. A game in which the players are pulling together for a common goal from the outset could easliy become a typical party driven RGP where you have the mage and the shapeshifter and the Logrus guy. As it is Amber sets up a unique role playing dynamic where the goals of the PCs are as important if not more important than the 'plot'. In a D&D game letting the Fighter get killed by the dragon before you step in and cure the party is seen as bad form in Amber it might be a stroke of genius.
I really think that this intrigue is key to the Amber experience more so than the powers or the diceless mechanic.
In my experience the coming together you mention does happen through a campaign arc. Most PCs eventually opt to work together usually to save Amber/existance from outside threats. However, the fact that you could form a faction that was all in favour of destroying and remaking the universe or head out on your own to launch an opportunistic attack on Amber to seize the crown when everyone one else was busy elsewhere is fantastic.

[boulet]

I don't know... It seems that when Benedict was chasing Corwin with murder in his mind he didn't fake it. That Zelazny never intended to let that happen in the story is irrelevant. I doubt that anyone in the family would have spared Brand's life after he tried to erase the Pattern either. Those feuds rarely ending with irreversible effects is one possible narrative choice, choice that belonged to Roger Zelazny. That doesn't mean it will be the path chosen by any given group playing Amber DRPG. One group could downplay the fratricide conflicts, another could enforce a bloody hecatomb. One group could focus on Oberon's disapprobation of fratricide, another could see a prince kill the old man...

To me it's more about passion. Real life is made of all sorts of families. My dad was mad at one of his brothers to the point of threatening him with an axe once. Thirty years later things cooled down and they gathered peacefully for a wedding. It's not tropes. Humans are ambivalent. Passion will go past the point of no return... or not. Amber DRPG tries to build a similar feel to the Amber cycles but different groups will end up with very diverse stories using this common framework. Zelazny chose a story of redemption and wisdom. That's not built in the game though. Consequences of passion gone too far would be interesting too.

You might see Amber DRPG as an emulation of the books as a series of "nasty pranks". I might prefer a concept of an open ended sandbox game built with similar elements.

[Trevelyan]

Most PCs eventually opt to work together usually to save Amber/existance from outside threats. However, the fact that you could form a faction that was all in favour of destroying and remaking the universe or head out on your own to launch an opportunistic attack on Amber to seize the crown when everyone one else was busy elsewhere is fantastic.

I agree with most of what you said, but it occurs to me that this section is true of many games. And while it's certainly an option, I think the bigger problem is that Erick didn't treat it as one way to play the game, but as the only way. He never suugested that Amberites can be childish and prone to personal vendettas, he said that they are and, more to the point, would continue to be so even after the growth of the novels. A more interesting approach resulting in the same experience for PCs might have eben for a more mature older generation struggling with the immaturity of the new (PC) generation. Somewhat indulgent parents who realise that they were just the same at that age, but will react firmly to a child who steps over the mark.

I don't know... It seems that when Benedict was chasing Corwin with murder in his mind he didn't fake it. That Zelazny never intended to let that happen in the story is irrelevant. I doubt that anyone in the family would have spared Brand's life after he tried to erase the Pattern either.

This is rather the point - certain events happen in the books, but they are explicitely extreme circumstances which lead, in return, to significant character growth among the children of Oberon. Amberites don't typically kill each other, but under the extenuating circumstances in the first series, tensions were high, the grand prize of the throne was up for grabs and most people seemed aware that the stakes were even higher. In that scenario, Benedict (who never really trusted Corwin) was prepared to kill, and once the full extent of Brand's treachery was known then his life was deemed forfit.

But consider that even in the midst of all of this, when the family was gathered in the library following the rescue of Brand, absent the immediate rush of rage that drove Benedict vs. Corwin, everyone was prepared to grant the culprit exile rather than demand death - the entire family of Amber was prepared to look on the person responsible for the death of Oberon (as they saw it), raising the forces of the black road, the imprisonment and attempted murder of Brand and demand only that they not return to Amber. ONly Random insisted on the caveat that they should pay the death penalty if they had killed his son. A life for a life, but otherwise let the cuprit live.

Those feuds rarely ending with irreversible effects is one possible narrative choice, choice that belonged to Roger Zelazny. That doesn't mean it will be the path chosen by any given group playing Amber DRPG.

I'm not arguing about what a given ADRPG group can electto do, I'm suggesting that, as you yourself point out, limited feuding was the limit that Zelazny placed on family interaction, and which Wujcik overlooks. I'm not suggesting that a new generation couldn't take the behaviour of the older generation even further, I'm suggesting that the behaviour of the older generation was far less bloodthirsty than Wujcik admits for in ADRPG.

To use an analogy, it is as if he he read a series of childrens' books set in England during WWII, and gone on to extrapolate a game based on the setting but set after the war where children are regularly sent away from their parents to live in the country, without realising that this was a unique feature of wartime Britain, and overlooking the references in the books to time spent at home before the war. In this instance, he has read a series about a family at a point of crisis, in danger from an unknown enemy within the family but who is vanquished when the family pulls together, and extrapolated a setting in which the family is constantly at war with itself, ignoring the many references to simpler, pettier times.

[RPGPundit]

I think there's two things to consider here: In my own games, when I run a campaign set after Patternfall, the Elders might be a little more mature; but they're basically not that different. Corwin's little speech at the end of the first series is both condescending to his family, and coloured by the heat of the moment, as it were.
In the second place, the younger PCs, who didn't actually live through all of Patternfall (assuming you start a game post-Patternfall) will be tainted still by everything the elders were and taught them as they were growing up, and by natural amberite power and its corresponding hubris.  So its natural that they will repeat many of the mistakes and conflicts of their parents' youth.

RPGPundit

[Trevelyan]

So its natural that they will repeat many of the mistakes and conflicts of their parents' youth.

That's really the crux of my point, though. I don't believe the mistakes of their parents' youth were anywhere like as vicious or all pervading as ADRPG seems to suggest.

[RPGPundit]

Well, I don't know about that. They dueled, they hated each other; one of them stuck the other as an amnesiac imprisoned for four centuries, then later tried to have him killed. One of them took another's eyes out. Some of them might have killed each other. This was a seriously dysfunctional family, with some serious "youthful errors".

RPGPundit

[Trevelyan]

Well, I don't know about that. They dueled, they hated each other; one of them stuck the other as an amnesiac imprisoned for four centuries, then later tried to have him killed. One of them took another's eyes out. Some of them might have killed each other. This was a seriously dysfunctional family, with some serious "youthful errors".

Alternatively, they duelled and hated each other, just as many modern families feature brothers who fight and no longer talk (two of my cousins, brothers, haven't spoken for five years after one of them made an ofhand remark about the other's fiancee - needless to say he wasn't invited to the wedding). One of them left another wounded on another world in the hope that he might die from the plague which was prevalent in that place at the time because he knew that to directly kill a brother was unforgivable, and his father confirmed this view to the family at large when supicion grew. One took another's eyes out as an alternative to killing him in spite of people's expectations as a way of keeping alive but out of the way, and in the expectation that the injury would not be permanent. And these two brothers were widely regarded as having the greatest rivalry in the family.

Other pranks, while vicious and especially nasty to mere mortals, were clearly far less significant to Amberites. Nails in the soles of boots and encouraging animals to attack a brother (in front of enough witnesses that it could never prove fatal) were among the other examples we have.

[jibbajibba]

The discussion round family feuds is interesting but not where I was heading in the OP. I would be more relevant if it was believed that the competative nature of the attribute auction was a result of the family feud 'trope'.

I was interested if the rules have been designed to replicate an aspect of the novels that are not key to the novels but coincidental and if the rules themsleves actually prevent some stuff that happens in the novels because they have misinterpreted something or are making a big leap.

Take the power Caine shows to eavesdrop on Trumps. In the base game this is not possible unless Caine is a full blown trump artist. Whilst the old chestnet of 'you don't know that he isn't a full blown trump artist' could be used its pretty weak as there is zero evidence at any other point and in fact its a real cop out to suggest this. I would say that one of the poor elements of the rules is the large costs and complete nature of the powers which is why I use partial powers instead.
I might also argue that int eh game the unobtainability of Benedict as Rank 1 warfare affects the game rules directly becuase it introduces the concept of rank 1 guys can not be overtaken. I think this is broken as well and only occurs because Benedict is so good and he keeps on training to get better. If in the book Benedict had been much closer to the other characters this rule woudl not have made sense. Rank 1 in Psyche for example is far less clear cut and if that warfare split had been as close then the rule system woudl eb very different.

[Croaker]

If in the book Benedict had been much closer to the other characters this rule woudl not have made sense. Rank 1 in Psyche for example is far less clear cut and if that warfare split had been as close then the rule system woudl eb very different.

IMO, this is more wujcik than the books.
I mean, sure, bennie is strong, but he gets beaten by corwin (sure, by trickery, but by ADRPG's mentality, some would argue this isn't possible, as ben would consider the possibility of an hidden invisible trap that'd turn him into a smurf if he looked at corwin while saying jibbajibba), and also manage to lose an arm in battle, gets paralysed by brand and is often pretty innefective compared to his ADRPG version

[RPGPundit]

IMO, this is more wujcik than the books.
I mean, sure, bennie is strong, but he gets beaten by corwin (sure, by trickery, but by ADRPG's mentality, some would argue this isn't possible, as ben would consider the possibility of an hidden invisible trap that'd turn him into a smurf if he looked at corwin while saying jibbajibba), and also manage to lose an arm in battle, gets paralysed by brand and is often pretty innefective compared to his ADRPG version

I don't think that any of that is incompatible with the ADRPG version.
In my current campaign, Benedict has been taken prisoner by Delwin and Sand.

I think the real problem is that some people (usually people who are looking to find excessive fault with the book) blow the whole "Benedict can't be beaten" thing way out of proportion. I don't think that's ever what Erick meant.

Absolutely all of the examples you've shown above can be replicated in the game without difficulty.

RPGPundit

[jibbajibba]

I don't think that any of that is incompatible with the ADRPG version.
In my current campaign, Benedict has been taken prisoner by Delwin and Sand.

I think the real problem is that some people (usually people who are looking to find excessive fault with the book) blow the whole "Benedict can't be beaten" thing way out of proportion. I don't think that's ever what Erick meant.

Absolutely all of the examples you've shown above can be replicated in the game without difficulty.

RPGPundit

But again this is not quite my point. My point is the game has a system of ranks and rank 2 can never surpass rank 1. I don't mean in a single fight I mean Rank 2 can't pump xp into their attribute and become Rank 1.
I think this is a direct result of Benedict in the books being the ultimate warrior. So if you consider the characters in the books as PCs the rules have been constructed with one particular set of PCs in mind and as a result other options are closed off