Question on Amber 'tropes'

[Trevelyan]

The discussion round family feuds is interesting but not where I was heading in the OP. I would be more relevant if it was believed that the competative nature of the attribute auction was a result of the family feud 'trope'.

I think that is very much the case, though. The auction is clearly intended to produce rivalries between PCs.

Take the power Caine shows to eavesdrop on Trumps. In the base game this is not possible unless Caine is a full blown trump artist. Whilst the old chestnet of 'you don't know that he isn't a full blown trump artist' could be used its pretty weak as there is zero evidence at any other point and in fact its a real cop out to suggest this. I would say that one of the poor elements of the rules is the large costs and complete nature of the powers which is why I use partial powers instead.

I thing the prevalence of home brew partial pwoers lists is evidence that a lot of people don't like the "all or nothing" approach to powers in ADRPG. In some ways I think that even partial powers don't go far enough.

In the books there are numerous examples of characters who elect, sometimes at very short notice, to walk the Pattern (Dara, Jurt, Coral), which per ADRPG would be a huge 50 point hit of bad stuff. Arguably Coral is then zapped into unconsciousness and treated as a breeding mare, which is fairly bad stuff intensive, but short of arguing that these guys had all saved up a lot of points in advance of their Pattern walking, ADRPG doesn't match the books in this respect. Any singificant cost discourages family members frmo claiming their birthright.

Partial powers mitigate some of the problem, but even then you're likely looking at 10+ points for basic shadow walking, and presumably it'll take a while to build up the full suit of powers, none of which are apparently that difficult to learn as Merlic suggests that the guidance of an experienced shadow walker is only needed the first time or two that a new initiate uses their power.

Given that most, if not all players are likely to have some form of shadow walking power, and that there are diminishing returns on duplicate shadow walking abilities, I'd be tempted not to put a price on those powers. If they are an Amberite then let them walk the Pattern at no cost. If they come from Chaos then let them take the Logrus, etc. And if someone wants to claim dual citizenship then why not allow them both powers and assume that the benefits are balanced by the additional complications of being beholden to both powers. Isn't that what the advice in Shadow Knight about not being afraid to give players power recommends anyway?

You could quite happily extend that to Trump, Shape Shifting and Sorcery too, by assuming that anyone trained in more esoteric arts and pwoers is beholden to a greater degree to those who taught them. Shape Shifting is probably the most problematic power to include on this scale, but I find that tuning down basic Shape Shifting and requiring more work and tuition to master Advanged Shape Shifting it still fits in nicely. Ultimately, though, this requires a level of maturity from the players in that they will only persue the powers appropriate to thier character, and not go all Merlin on the game (although being another Merlin has its own price).

I might also argue that int eh game the unobtainability of Benedict as Rank 1 warfare affects the game rules directly becuase it introduces the concept of rank 1 guys can not be overtaken.

I agree with that one too. Moreover, there is the related and slightly confusing notion that the elder generation will always surpass the younger generation, that 1st rank among the PCs is still no match for the elders, which just seems ridiculous.

I rather like the idea that rank and not the points spent are the deciding factor when two PCs compete since it limits the advantage of jumping into an auctionwith a 50 point bid on an attribute. Even if the next highest bid is only 10 points, it still nets second rank, which is close to first in competition and so prevents one player from making himself utterly unassailable (although 1.5 rank is unlikely to be reached). In practice, though, you are forced either to look at the points also, making rank largely redundant, or to conclude, as ADRPG does, that the elders are unsurpassable, operating as they do on a different ranking scale, and that the highest of the elders is more potent than any PC can hope to be.

[scottishstorm]

Given that most, if not all players are likely to have some form of shadow walking power, and that there are diminishing returns on duplicate shadow walking abilities, I'd be tempted not to put a price on those powers. If they are an Amberite then let them walk the Pattern at no cost. If they come from Chaos then let them take the Logrus, etc. And if someone wants to claim dual citizenship then why not allow them both powers and assume that the benefits are balanced by the additional complications of being beholden to both powers. Isn't that what the advice in Shadow Knight about not being afraid to give players power recommends anyway?

I agree -in part- Trevelyan.  First, Pattern & Logrus are iconic.  I think they should be "free" (caveat here being a possible reduced cost of total points.  If Pattern is free then characters begin with 50-75 points instead of 100).  Ensuring everyone has Pattern or Logrus also helps avoid some of the twinkdom that occurs, especially at the first stages of the game (ie: we've seen people take Broken Pattern and gain a huge initial advantage on stats, effectively "owning" the other PCs and getting perhaps two #1 attribute ranks with the extra points).

Getting both Pattern and Logrus for free, however, is going too far, IMO.  Unless, of course, the idea that these two powers are in conflict and neither works exactly as it should or may somehow sabotage the dual-using character.  (OTOH, a "discount" for subsequent shadowwalking powers is way cool with me!)

[weilide]

Given that one hundred points is a somewhat arbitrary number to start with, isn't pattern in a sense free already if everyone already starts with it as a matter of course? It's just that players then have fifty points to work with instead of one hundred. Of course once one tries to balance Logrus and such that things become complicated.

[scottishstorm]

Given that one hundred points is a somewhat arbitrary number to start with, isn't pattern in a sense free already if everyone already starts with it as a matter of course? It's just that players then have fifty points to work with instead of one hundred. Of course once one tries to balance Logrus and such that things become complicated.

No, not at all.    At least not to my experience.

At a base 100 points, Pattern represents a cool 50% of your total.  But, we start at the attribute auction.  Invariably, that coveted #1 spot is so close and someone gets to thinking "Well, alll I really need is a power to shadow walk.  Broken Pattern is almost as good...  60 for warfare!"

[scottishstorm]

Back to the question on 'tropes'.

I think it's a given that the DRPG amps the power level, intelligence, and all-around capability of the novel characters.

A way to rationalize this is, perhaps: the drpg may represent some sort of rarely-realized ideal or upper potential.  Benedict, Corwin, Fiona and all the rest are not typically as potent as the drpg makes them out to be.  But on a good day -a very good day with preparation and luck involved- they can potentially come close to their drpg ideals.

[Croaker]

My point is the game has a system of ranks and rank 2 can never surpass rank 1. I don't mean in a single fight I mean Rank 2 can't pump xp into their attribute and become Rank 1.

Actually, IIRC, there's nothing saying that he can't. I remember wujcik saying that, in this case, you might let the 2nd become the new 1st.

I rather like the idea that rank and not the points spent are the deciding factor when two PCs compete since it limits the advantage of jumping into an auctionwith a 50 point bid on an attribute. Even if the next highest bid is only 10 points, it still nets second rank, which is close to first in competition and so prevents one player from making himself utterly unassailable (although 1.5 rank is unlikely to be reached). In practice, though, you are forced either to look at the points also, making rank largely redundant, or to conclude, as ADRPG does, that the elders are unsurpassable, operating as they do on a different ranking scale, and that the highest of the elders is more potent than any PC can hope to be.

You can bypass that by saying that 1PC rank = X elder rank, which allow you to tailor the relative power of the elder.

So, if, say, there are 20 elder ranks and 4PC ranks, you could very well dcide that, whatever the points, 1PC rank could be equal to 6th Elder rank.

[RPGPundit]

But again this is not quite my point. My point is the game has a system of ranks and rank 2 can never surpass rank 1. I don't mean in a single fight I mean Rank 2 can't pump xp into their attribute and become Rank 1.
I think this is a direct result of Benedict in the books being the ultimate warrior. So if you consider the characters in the books as PCs the rules have been constructed with one particular set of PCs in mind and as a result other options are closed off

I do not believe this is correct as per the rules; the rank 2 guy can reach rank 1.5 first, and then if he keeps "pushing it" and the rank 1 guy is not, he will become the new rank 1.

That's how I've always done things.

RPGPundit

[scottishstorm]

I do not believe this is correct as per the rules; the rank 2 guy can reach rank 1.5 first, and then if he keeps "pushing it" and the rank 1 guy is not, he will become the new rank 1.

That's how I've always done things.

Some GMs play that PC ranks are not the same as elder ranks "and never the twain shall meet".  The danger here is that rank #1 guy can always designate 1 point into their stat, keeping that minimum allocation at the top of their list and thereby assuring they stay #1 forever and always.

This is cheese.

IMO, rank 1.5 can over-ride and replace rank 1within the priority system for advancement.  ie:

GM: "Ok, advancement time, guys.  Give me your lists."

Rank 1 guy: "Ok.  Top priority, .  But only one point.  After that, I want to put points into X, Y & Z until I run out of points."

Rank 1.5 guy: " is my first and only priority.  My character has been pushing to beat Rank 1 guy for months now.  I don't care about anything else.  I want to be better than him."

(GM spends the points, evaluates and the players for rank 1 and 1.5 change places)

This, IMO, also keeps the spirit of the attribute auction alive, realizing that other players may 'outbid' you for that attribute at advancement time.

[JongWK]

You can't assign a specific amount of points during advancement, IIRC. It's a blind bid.

[jibbajibba]

I do Xp totally differently. When a player achieves an objective either a plot objective or a personal objective they get some xp typically 1 -10 points. Then they spend it on something. Anything they like.  That is experience, really quite simple.

[Trevelyan]

Getting both Pattern and Logrus for free, however, is going too far, IMO.  Unless, of course, the idea that these two powers are in conflict and neither works exactly as it should or may somehow sabotage the dual-using character.

I swear that I read a series of books with a story a bit like that. There was this guy with strong ties to these two conflicting powers which made his life miserable and messed with all his friends in an attempt to make him chose between them. What was the name of that setting again?...

You can bypass that by saying that 1PC rank = X elder rank, which allow you to tailor the relative power of the elder.

You can and probably should (or do something else to rectify the problem), but my point was really that, as written, ADRPG assumes that the elders are unassailable and that the younger generation cannot compete, which is a trope of the RPG not supported by the books.

The danger here is that rank #1 guy can always designate 1 point into their stat, keeping that minimum allocation at the top of their list and thereby assuring they stay #1 forever and always.

The official advancement rules don't allow that. Players are allowed to list things which they want to spend points on, in order, and for each item state whether they are prepared to accept bad stuff to get it.

Even if the GM were to allow a player to specify a limit on points, the advice given in ADRPG is that the GM should establish where the next "rung of the ladder" is past 1st rank, in which case I'd be extremely reluctant to [put each rung only one point ahead of the last.

[scottishstorm]

I swear that I read a series of books with a story a bit like that. There was this guy with strong ties to these two conflicting powers which made his life miserable and messed with all his friends in an attempt to make him chose between them. What was the name of that setting again?...

*grin*

C'mon!  Merlin was a twink!
(not in the sexual sense, calm down...

If Merlin was a player in your Amber game, he'd be frustrating as all get-out... stealing every scene... exploiting every ability.  Apart from some very good one-liners (which I attribute to Zelazny, not the character), I'm not a fan of Merlin!

However, what I meant by the powers in conflict exceeds examples in the Merlin books.  If Pattern and Logrus were both free, I could imagine the character having constant problems using either.  As a balancing act for rpg congruency, advantages and disadvantages should more or less come out even rather than "Hey!  Twice the power!  I rock!"

[RPGPundit]

Yes, its the GM who decides how much the Rank 1 guy's next rank costs.

RPGPundit