For me Player Agency is just if I can play my character or not.

If the DM tells me what my character does then it is not Player Agency.

The idea that some don't consider player agency as critical concept to RPGs is . . . bizarre. And I'm glad I am not playing your games. But I also suspect we are defining things differently.

Fundamentally, tabletop RPGs are about the asking each player repeatedly and often the question, "What do you do?"

If the players answer is somewhat logical, and somewhat feasible, they should be allowed to attempt to succeed at doing it/getting the result they are hoping for.

That to me, is player agency.

(There are variations on that fundamental question such as "Where do you go?" or "What does player character want?")

Sandbox gaming by definition require high levels of player agency, because the question "What do you do?" often looks at larger concepts or time frames. But more rigid roleplaying still require some degree of player agency.

Quote from: jeff37923 on December 20, 2020, 02:30:37 PM
IMHO, Player Agency is the constant and consistent war against Boxed Text.

During the days of the RPGA and AD&D 2e, modules would have absolutely ridiculous set-ups for the PCs which could not be avoided. Crap like "for no apparent reason your character and the rest of the party members all take their clothes off and walk naked into the Sheriff of Raven's Bluff  jail cells" or "the Magic-Users of the party decide that it is a good idea to leave their spell books behind for this adventure" or "each party member leaves behind their weapons, armor, and all magic items before meeting with the Chief of the Orc warband". These ham-fisted railroad starts would usually be written in Boxes for the adventure requiring the DM to read them aloud, hence Boxed Text.

If you wanted to play in a RPGA module, then your character had to do whatever stupid shit was in the Boxed Text, no matter how nonsensical it was. If you didn't you, you also didn't get to play in the adventure.

End result was that all Player Agency was removed from the adventure just to get the game started.

I understand that this defining something with negative space, but it is how I think of it.

That's a good example of what I was referring to when I mentioned the GM going into narration mode. Fuck boxed text (beyond location/item descriptions).

Quote from: Chris24601 on December 20, 2020, 03:33:41 PM

Quote from: jeff37923 on December 20, 2020, 02:30:37 PM
IMHO, Player Agency is the constant and consistent war against Boxed Text.

Don't forget the crap GM's who tell you what your character is thinking and doing in order to set up the next scene in their would-be novel.

Here I agree, but again, I do make exceptions for when mechanics within the game (e.g., social skill use, mind-control, or compulsions) might override what the player might otherwise want the PC to think/do.

For example, if you play a character in a game that took a flaw that the try to bed every chick that comes along, your character might accept the attentions of a frisky NPC even if the player knows it's likely a bad idea (usually some kind of check to resist is involved, depending on system). The player still made the choice to have such a flaw in the first place, so this loss of control is actually respecting their player agency.

Quote from: HappyDaze on December 20, 2020, 04:31:41 PM
Here I agree, but again, I do make exceptions for when mechanics within the game (e.g., social skill use, mind-control, or compulsions) might override what the player might otherwise want the PC to think/do.

Everyone understands that magic whammies and the like can affect things.

No, I mean ones who just out of the blue declare what your character thinks, feels and does because they need certain things to happen for their would-be novel to play out as they intend.

The shit ones who throw hissy fits when your characters don't act the way they think they should. Example, I had a GM rage-quit in the middle of a session because my PC, who'd just been kidnapped away from their wife and newborn baby into another dimension and then told by the wizard who did it that I'd need to perform a service (whatever the adventure was supposed to be) before he'd send me home. So I punched him unconscious, tied him up, gagged him and dragged his sorry ass to the front gate of the wizard's enemy and said "this guy is all yours if you can send me home."

Apparently this was the GM's pet NPC didn't figure I'd do anything other than posture a bit before having to relent because the wizard was the only (from the GM's perspective) way home because my lateral move of going to his enemy never even occurred to him and that's when he blew his top and quit.

I mean asshole GM's like that.

ETA: I guess that GM just utterly misread my remark that "I would do ANYTHING to get back to my wife and baby" as "I'd jump through any GM created hoop to get back to my wife and baby" and not how I meant it which was "I will make a deal with the devil himself it gets me back to my wife and baby."

Quote from: lordmalachdrim on December 20, 2020, 02:31:55 PM
Player Agency is a bullshit term that should be tossed out of an airlock along with anyone babbling about it.

Well, that's just like, your opinion, man.

Quote from: Thondor on December 20, 2020, 04:03:08 PM
Sandbox gaming by definition require high levels of player agency, because the question "What do you do?" often looks at larger concepts or time frames. But more rigid roleplaying still require some degree of player agency.

Way back, I sometimes would ask my players what they wanted to do. One of my players joking said "Take over the world!". In hindisight, it was a great response. My question lacked context. It was too broad. Nowadays, I like to sandbox, and if the players take the initiative, I'm a happy camper. But I'm also willing to put some context out there. Give them some choices to get them started.

In my own experience, the only people who have used that exact term in any of my games were the ones who have come into a campaign with a written multi-page background that introduced elements that had nothing to do with the setting established for the game (and that they were aware of, and agreed to, before character generation began) and used in an effort to introduce game and setting breaking material that they wanted their character to be or have.

Most recent encounter with this was a guy who read and understood the introductory materials for the 5e Eberron game I had started, and then wanted to create a Paladin/Warlock (at first level, already multiclassed) who gained power from a deity he created in his ten page background that was supposed to be one of vengeance and not related to religion in Eberron and expected me to create a planar portal that allowed this god to slip into and influence the setting for thousands of years, that was his character's bride. He also wanted several different magic items created in the setting with game breaking power, all detailed in his background, based upon his character's past reincarnated deeds as the character had lived multiple lives as a champion of revenge.

When I advised that I was not accepting ten page character backgrounds from any player in the campaign and would not entertain it, and I wanted at most to see three paragraphs (past, present, a potential desired future) beyond the typical traits determined at chargen (Personality Traits, Ideals, Bonds, Flaws), he rage quit and accused me of denying his player agency. And that he didn't want to play in what would clearly be my narration of a novel I wanted to write.

It turned out to be a better game without him in it.

And I've seen more examples of this behavior beyond this fellow, but I nip it in the bud whether I lose that player or not. Seems to me there are more players that accuse GMs of attempted novelization that are actually more guilty of that particular accusation than the GMs they accuse.

I forgot. There was actually one thing that did relate to the setting that was in his ten page background story. His bride-god had actually caused The Mourning as an act of vengeance upon humanity for its crimes.

Quote from: Dropbear on December 20, 2020, 07:33:53 PM
In my own experience, the only people who have used that exact term in any of my games were the ones who have come into a campaign with a written multi-page background that introduced elements that had nothing to do with the setting established for the game (and that they were aware of, and agreed to, before character generation began) and used in an effort to introduce game and setting breaking material that they wanted their character to be or have.

That's not player agency, that's player entitlement. Agency is about the freedom to make meaningful choices in the game. Entitlement is expecting everything you want to come true.

It's the difference between "oh, you mean I can go anywhere?" and "I demand a staff of the magi at first level!".

Quote from: Pat on December 20, 2020, 07:51:53 PM

Quote from: Dropbear on December 20, 2020, 07:33:53 PM
In my own experience, the only people who have used that exact term in any of my games were the ones who have come into a campaign with a written multi-page background that introduced elements that had nothing to do with the setting established for the game (and that they were aware of, and agreed to, before character generation began) and used in an effort to introduce game and setting breaking material that they wanted their character to be or have.

That's not player agency, that's player entitlement. Agency is about the freedom to make meaningful choices in the game. Entitlement is expecting everything you want to come true.

It's the difference between "oh, you mean I can go anywhere?" and "I demand a staff of the magi at first level!".

My point being the term is not often used to illustrate player agency, but rather player entitlement.

Quote from: Dropbear on December 20, 2020, 07:56:22 PM

Quote from: Pat on December 20, 2020, 07:51:53 PM

Quote from: Dropbear on December 20, 2020, 07:33:53 PM
In my own experience, the only people who have used that exact term in any of my games were the ones who have come into a campaign with a written multi-page background that introduced elements that had nothing to do with the setting established for the game (and that they were aware of, and agreed to, before character generation began) and used in an effort to introduce game and setting breaking material that they wanted their character to be or have.

That's not player agency, that's player entitlement. Agency is about the freedom to make meaningful choices in the game. Entitlement is expecting everything you want to come true.

It's the difference between "oh, you mean I can go anywhere?" and "I demand a staff of the magi at first level!".

My point being the term is not often used to illustrate player agency, but rather player entitlement.

I've never seen it used that way. I suspect you're overgeneralizing based on a couple of bad experiences.

Quote from: Pat on December 20, 2020, 08:00:10 PM

Quote from: Dropbear on December 20, 2020, 07:56:22 PM

Quote from: Pat on December 20, 2020, 07:51:53 PM

Quote from: Dropbear on December 20, 2020, 07:33:53 PM
In my own experience, the only people who have used that exact term in any of my games were the ones who have come into a campaign with a written multi-page background that introduced elements that had nothing to do with the setting established for the game (and that they were aware of, and agreed to, before character generation began) and used in an effort to introduce game and setting breaking material that they wanted their character to be or have.

That's not player agency, that's player entitlement. Agency is about the freedom to make meaningful choices in the game. Entitlement is expecting everything you want to come true.

It's the difference between "oh, you mean I can go anywhere?" and "I demand a staff of the magi at first level!".

My point being the term is not often used to illustrate player agency, but rather player entitlement.

I've never seen it used that way. I suspect you're overgeneralizing based on a couple of bad experiences.

More than a couple, about eight times now and that was just the most recent experience. And that term has been bandied about each time. I'm aware of the meaning of the term, but based upon my experience with those who are quick to use it, many are not.

Quote from: Dropbear on December 20, 2020, 08:02:44 PM

Quote from: Pat on December 20, 2020, 08:00:10 PM

Quote from: Dropbear on December 20, 2020, 07:56:22 PM

Quote from: Pat on December 20, 2020, 07:51:53 PM

Quote from: Dropbear on December 20, 2020, 07:33:53 PM
In my own experience, the only people who have used that exact term in any of my games were the ones who have come into a campaign with a written multi-page background that introduced elements that had nothing to do with the setting established for the game (and that they were aware of, and agreed to, before character generation began) and used in an effort to introduce game and setting breaking material that they wanted their character to be or have.

That's not player agency, that's player entitlement. Agency is about the freedom to make meaningful choices in the game. Entitlement is expecting everything you want to come true.

It's the difference between "oh, you mean I can go anywhere?" and "I demand a staff of the magi at first level!".

My point being the term is not often used to illustrate player agency, but rather player entitlement.

I've never seen it used that way. I suspect you're overgeneralizing based on a couple of bad experiences.

More than a couple, about eight times now and that was just the most recent experience. And that term has been bandied about each time. I'm aware of the meaning of the term, but based upon my experience with those who are quick to use it, many are not.

Most likely, it caught on in a local group near you.

I'd be curious to know if anyone else has experienced something similar, because it was a surprise to me.

Quote from: Pat on December 20, 2020, 08:04:26 PM

Quote from: Dropbear on December 20, 2020, 08:02:44 PM

Quote from: Pat on December 20, 2020, 08:00:10 PM

Quote from: Dropbear on December 20, 2020, 07:56:22 PM

Quote from: Pat on December 20, 2020, 07:51:53 PM

Quote from: Dropbear on December 20, 2020, 07:33:53 PM
In my own experience, the only people who have used that exact term in any of my games were the ones who have come into a campaign with a written multi-page background that introduced elements that had nothing to do with the setting established for the game (and that they were aware of, and agreed to, before character generation began) and used in an effort to introduce game and setting breaking material that they wanted their character to be or have.

That's not player agency, that's player entitlement. Agency is about the freedom to make meaningful choices in the game. Entitlement is expecting everything you want to come true.

It's the difference between "oh, you mean I can go anywhere?" and "I demand a staff of the magi at first level!".

My point being the term is not often used to illustrate player agency, but rather player entitlement.

I've never seen it used that way. I suspect you're overgeneralizing based on a couple of bad experiences.

More than a couple, about eight times now and that was just the most recent experience. And that term has been bandied about each time. I'm aware of the meaning of the term, but based upon my experience with those who are quick to use it, many are not.

Most likely, it caught on in a local group near you.

I'd be curious to know if anyone else has experienced something similar, because it was a surprise to me.

I would not discount that, honestly, but I don't know for sure. I stopped hanging at the two local shops that host games last year before Covid hit, mainly because of the prevalence of pre-written novelized character backgrounds and amount of 300 lb. twenty-something neckbeard League of Legends addicts that were staring at my lady's tits throughout the whole game.

Now I strictly game with the guys I have known forever on Friday nights.

I find it easier to understand in the negative.  If I say my character does this, when "this" is something both physically and game-mechanically possible, and the DM says "no you don't" then that's a violation of player agency.  Players control only their own characters, while DMs control the entire rest of the world.  If the DM dictates player decisions, then the players have nothing left to do but watch, which is no fun at all.  Player agency is really freakin' important.