Quote from: Theory of Games on December 20, 2020, 11:30:03 AM
I've seen/heard people say it's "everything a player does with their character". The activity of their character.

I've also seen/heard people say "a player's ability to make meaningful character choices that impact the setting". So the party clears the dungeon and the King makes the now 12th-Level Fighter 'General of his armies' so now the Fighter can go after the Orc hordes threatening the kingdom.

Is it the first thing or the second or both or WTF? People have been crying about the loss of agency for decades. Are GMs evil or misguided or confused? Is this entitled SJW shade or are GMs really stepping on player toes?

It's anything other than the GM telling players what their characters do or have happened to them.

Quote from: Theory of Games on December 24, 2020, 04:10:46 PMIt's AD&D. And scary Uncle Gary said if you don't track time in your adventures you're a magnanimous imbecile unworthy of the DM title. So I'm tracking time BUT miscalculated the distance from the Gate of Barovia to Barovia proper. So night falls just before the party gets to the village. So. Strahd hunts at night, right? Sure he does. And the PCs had read that dead guy's letter and knew what was coming and the players were talking like they couldn't WAIT to meet Mr. Dracula and mop the floor with him.

*Shrug* So Strahd ambushes the party at the edge of the forest with six Worth wolves and a swarm of bats. Of course, he hides in the forest and attacks with his FOR-THE-LOVE-OF-ZEUS overpowered spell array and .... roll credits.

Thusly, a large wave of WTF washed over the gaming table and. Resisting the urge to say "I'm just playing my NPC --- that's what he would do", I apologized and realized I need to talk to someone. I need help. I remember Tim Kask saying he would butcher parties until Mentzer took him aside and advised him otherwise. You folks have been my personal Mentzer and I both thank you and hope you contribute to my next thread.

Perhaps I'm misreading, but it seems that the players knew Strahd was super powerful and particularly so at night, they knew travelling to the castle would leave them vulnerable in the darkness before they got there, and they were still excited to face him.

This does not seem like a lack of player agency to me. It seems more like players playing a party of characters with death-wish flaws.

Quote from: mightybrain on December 25, 2020, 07:44:21 AM
Perhaps I'm misreading, but it seems that the players knew Strahd was super powerful and particularly so at night, they knew travelling to the castle would leave them vulnerable in the darkness before they got there, and they were still excited to face him.

This does not seem like a lack of player agency to me. It seems more like players playing a party of characters with death-wish flaws.

Indeed, there is a difference between killing characters and providing ample opportunities for suicide. In this case, a TPK doesn't seem like a particularly inappropriate consequence of the character's actions (and thus the player's agency).

That said, was it a death-wish or a misunderstanding about the nature of the game? Players might make such decisions if they believe they're playing in a game that includes plot armor. I don't think it would be fair to "improve" that aspect of the game (i.e. remove the plot armor they always enjoyed previously) without discussing it up front beforehand.

I've usually experienced players being determined to face a threat regardless of how dangerous it is. So, I try to warn them during chargen/session 0 that THE DICE can betray them, regardless of how proficient their sheet looks.

The dice in our games. They really decide.

Theory of Games, your Ravenloft example is a good primer on the challenge of putting the fear of scale back into your setting. 

Just because Strahd can "alpha strike team" the PCs for a TPK doesn't mean he always will. Further, it rather kills the mood totally going for an efficient TPK. Not to say what you are doing is wrong per se, but aesthetically you (and your table!) found the experience wanting. So somewhere you killed not just the party but the mood.

It's an art, and part of it is reading the audience. And in this case, RPGs, the audience is  the players -- who are also the actors (an oft loaded term, but meant in an agency case here) and allowed to make deeply flawed choices! They did, almost flippantly, and they died totally. But maybe the point could have gotten across without a TPK? That is for you to read the room. 

And there is room in Ravenloft for a more generous interpretation of consequences. Part of the torment of Ravenloft Darklords is knowing the Dark Powers thwart them and torture them eternally. And part of their few pleasures is bullheadedly reveling in their crapulence just before snuffing out would-be-heroes from re-enacting their greatest downfall. That gives you cause to explore a range of reprisals, such as: a fun chase scene where the party suffers anywhere from a brush with death, to a near TPK leaving a lone straggler shitting bricks and grateful for dawn. 

If you ask yourself, where are you leaving the logistic, strategic, & tactical Player Agency this might help! Basically, where's the maneuver room for choices in the picture from Big > Middle > Small. Leave a little of some room in each if you can, or if failed really bad in the big picture stuff relocate extra room in descending values as emergency failsafes -- unless players are no longer respecting the setting's threat value.

Hope that tip on finesse helps!

Quote from: Opaopajr on December 25, 2020, 03:39:15 PMJust because Strahd can "alpha strike team" the PCs for a TPK doesn't mean he always will.

Yes, Strahd is powerful enough that he can swoop in an pick them off at will. I think the most logical approach would be to charm or kill one of the PCs in the first instance. Then you have one player re-roll rather than a TPK. If the rest of the party don't take the hint, take another. I'm playing in a Strahd game at the moment, and whenever we see him coming, we go in the opposite direction. We'll have to face him eventually, but we want to make sure we have all the advantages we can before we do.

Quote from: Theory of Games on December 24, 2020, 04:10:46 PM
So night falls just before the party gets to the village. So. Strahd hunts at night, right? Sure he does. And the PCs had read that dead guy's letter and knew what was coming and the players were talking like they couldn't WAIT to meet Mr. Dracula and mop the floor with him.

Bolded the important part.
Based on that alone they got exactly what their were asking for. A fight against an massively more powerful foe. Now they know exactly what is waiting for them. Make new characters try again and add the dead ones to Strahd's forces as undead somethings just to spice it up a bit.

Quote from: lordmalachdrim on December 25, 2020, 07:04:18 PMadd the dead ones to Strahd's forces as undead somethings just to spice it up a bit.

Indeed, free NPCs. At least then your player's character's ten page backstory won't go to waste.

Quote from: Opaopajr on December 25, 2020, 03:39:15 PM
Theory of Games, your Ravenloft example is a good primer on the challenge of putting the fear of scale back into your setting. 

Just because Strahd can "alpha strike team" the PCs for a TPK doesn't mean he always will. Further, it rather kills the mood totally going for an efficient TPK. Not to say what you are doing is wrong per se, but aesthetically you (and your table!) found the experience wanting. So somewhere you killed not just the party but the mood.

It's an art, and part of it is reading the audience. And in this case, RPGs, the audience is  the players -- who are also the actors (an oft loaded term, but meant in an agency case here) and allowed to make deeply flawed choices! They did, almost flippantly, and they died totally. But maybe the point could have gotten across without a TPK? That is for you to read the room. 

And there is room in Ravenloft for a more generous interpretation of consequences. Part of the torment of Ravenloft Darklords is knowing the Dark Powers thwart them and torture them eternally. And part of their few pleasures is bullheadedly reveling in their crapulence just before snuffing out would-be-heroes from re-enacting their greatest downfall. That gives you cause to explore a range of reprisals, such as: a fun chase scene where the party suffers anywhere from a brush with death, to a near TPK leaving a lone straggler shitting bricks and grateful for dawn. 

If you ask yourself, where are you leaving the logistic, strategic, & tactical Player Agency this might help! Basically, where's the maneuver room for choices in the picture from Big > Middle > Small. Leave a little of some room in each if you can, or if failed really bad in the big picture stuff relocate extra room in descending values as emergency failsafes -- unless players are no longer respecting the setting's threat value.

Hope that tip on finesse helps!

Yeah. I'm feeling completely FINESSED. It's what a GM who came up with OD&D/AD&D needs. Back in the day, a random encounter might be excellent TPK material.

But now, with the heavy story-impact on the hobby, it's better to not demolish the party. At least early on. Sure, Ravenloft is being terrorized by an insane, magic-wielding Vampire. But it has to play out a certain way that better benefits the PCs.

Quote from: mightybrain on December 25, 2020, 06:56:50 PM

Quote from: Opaopajr on December 25, 2020, 03:39:15 PMJust because Strahd can "alpha strike team" the PCs for a TPK doesn't mean he always will.

Yes, Strahd is powerful enough that he can swoop in an pick them off at will. I think the most logical approach would be to charm or kill one of the PCs in the first instance. Then you have one player re-roll rather than a TPK. If the rest of the party don't take the hint, take another. I'm playing in a Strahd game at the moment, and whenever we see him coming, we go in the opposite direction. We'll have to face him eventually, but we want to make sure we have all the advantages we can before we do.

You are wise, probably due to learning the direct approach isn't always best.

Quote from: mightybrain on December 25, 2020, 07:10:25 PM

Quote from: lordmalachdrim on December 25, 2020, 07:04:18 PMadd the dead ones to Strahd's forces as undead somethings just to spice it up a bit.

Indeed, free NPCs. At least then your player's character's ten page backstory won't go to waste.

This. I mean. I don't cherish their backstories but, players should get to PLAY THE GAME.

This is what's bothering me. I can bring a level of less tactical finesse that affords player mistakes. I think that works, at least until the later scenes.

Quote from: Theory of Games on December 27, 2020, 01:38:01 PMYou are wise, probably due to learning the direct approach isn't always best.

We learned this from our first encounter with Strahd. I don't know if this is the suggested first encounter in the module, but it was the way our DM played it. We started by meeting an NPC and shortly after, we have our first encounter with Strahd who attacks us and takes off the NPC. Nothing we can throw at him so much as touches him.