Quote from: SosthenesWhere do you draw the line between gods and demons? One tribes god might be the other guys demon. Maybe you could include some kind of Small Gods link between the faithful and the power of their divine patron.

I don't know why, but I get that "Populous(tm)" feel when I read your posts

I understand not this Populous you speak of :confused:

As for the gods and demons thing, well as far as actual human based religions, there isn't much to stop on religion from persecuting another by calling their Gods Demons, and so forth.  And the man on the street isn't likely to be any better at it.

However, from a both purely metaphysical angle, AND a high level play angle there is one really truly practical difference. Or two...

The Gods have a vested interest in the functioning of the mortal realm, making sure everything runs more or less smoothly. This includes actual, measurable benefits from worship and sacrifice.

Demons do not. They have many things in common with the Gods, including general level of power, however they do not need human worship except to flatter their egos, and have zero concern with the order of mortal affairs. Demons could be remanents of the Old Order that might have existed prior to this one, and many of them are agents of apocalypse, actively trying to destroy the world as it is for their own inscrutable reasons.  

Note that I use Order but not chaos. Entropy and Chaos are both a part of the Order, as is Evil.



My thinking on this is a mix between a vaguely easter philosophy and lots of reading mythology. Most ancient mythology is populated by Gods and things that are 'Not Gods', but who are otherwise very much godlike. The Giants/Jotun of norse mythology, for example, the Cyclopes and Hecatonshires (and Titans, though those are really just another order of Gods) in Greek, the various Demons of the Vedas, Tiamat and her armies in the Babylonian...

Quote from: SpikeI understand not this Populous you speak of :confused:

It's a computer game, where you played a god. Leveling or raising the landscape, growing the civilization of your populace. The predecessor of the rather lackluster Black & White game...

If you've got a bunch of mythologies at the same time, the distinction can get confusing for the players. If Jahwe calls Dagon a demon, and then there's a real red-skinned, fire-breathing demon, it gets difficult...
I'd recommend not using the "Demon" moniker in that case. Titans, enemies, horde, whatever.

But in the end, you want your gods to be very true, i.e. they really exist, independent from their faithful, right? No manifested ideas but the true creators (or progeny thereof).

One thing to be clear on is that Demons are not tied to an appearence out of popular christian dogma at all. The term is used because the beings that are best known of this type are those who have set themselve deliberately against the Gods and Order.  

As for the nature of Gods... well there is a bit of chicken and egg going on here. The Gods do gain power from being worshipped. In theory they represent facets of reality, rather like the Runes. A God is, in this terminology a facet (or collection of facets) of the underlying structure of Order given form and personality, either by worship or by metaphysical need.  If Death exists, there must be a God (if not many gods) of Death, worshipped or not.  

The nature of these personalities can be changed by their worship. This is theory far beyond what should show up in game but:

Gax is a God, and is responsible for Famine, he could have been the first being to bear the Rune of Famine, or he could simply be the most powerful Famine Spirit, and be virtue of this become a God. The shamen of a tribe of nomads discover that Gax is responsible for the draught that has afflicted their lands and sacrfices a goat to appease him.  Eventually, the tribe grows  in power and settles into a city, Gax is a pretty powerful God, and is also associated with Death.  Eventually, the people stop thinking of Gax as a famine God and more of a Death God... perhaps out of laziness, perhaps because they haven't suffered a famine in a long time. Now, Gax no longer represents famine in any meaningful way. If, by chance, they think of Gax as responsible for Death and rebirth (in a cosmic cycle) Gax then would take on aspects of Rebirth or ressurection.

None of this changes the fact that Gax has been a seperate being with a metaphysical body and personality.  In fact, he may predate the tribe that first took up his worship.  Gax has a vested interest in maintaining his portfolio and his temples and worshippers.

Now, let us take the example of Dix, who is also represents Famine. Dix is a Demon. No amount of worship is going to make Dix more powerful, and the famine thing is just because Dix has powers that can inflict famine upon individual, or he likes rotting grain, or...  now, even if his worshippers decide that Dix is a death god, this has NO affect upon Dix at all. The only thing he gets from worship is a flattered Ego and whatever he can steal. That's not to say that Dix can't gain power... he can. Just not from worship.

Now, i could go farther and speculate on specific types of 'Demons' that would fit various catagories.  Also, remember that superstitions rule. Trolls would be called demons by most folks, even though they are unabashedly mortal.  The difference between a malicious spirit and a Demon to a non-shaman is nonexistant.


So, for metaphysical truths:  Gods represent one or more facets of reality, just as Runes do, and have real bodies and personalities. These beings both exist in the mortal realm and beyond it.  That is mortal heroes and the occasional unlucky bastard might encounter them, but you can't just get directions to their house.

Demons are beings who have powers similar to Gods, but are not Gods. Like gods they have physical forms but are not quite as removed from the mortal realm as Gods, you still aren't likely to just stumble across one making house.  

Gods are beholden to the Order of reality, Demons are not. Both can be thwarted by cunning, may have certain obscure rules that must be obeyed (taboos), but only truly powerful heroes can hope to thwart either.

"I command the power of Dix!"

(SCNR)

I decided to make this a seperate post, rather than clog up the one above where I attempt to define gods and demons clearly.

Previously, I've stated that Runes represent facets of reality, of the metaphysical Order of the world.  I've also discussed how deific natures are tied to those same facets.  Obviously there will be facets not represented by actual runes.

One other comment was on the power of heroes to thwart the macinations of Gods or Demons. This leads to tricky stuff.

A mortal, no matter how personally powerful, can not confront a God (or demon) and hope to win.  He can trick or persuade, he might have some metaphysical legal loophole (a taboo, say) that lets him get away with something, but direct confrontations are a dead loss.

The difference is Magic.  Runes already operate on a sort of Godly level. They have a mere fraction of the power, observably. But a rune isn't a 'power node'... it's a tap. The bearer of a Rune is in essence a very minor God of that portfolio, his use of the Rune allows him to shape the nature of reality in that regards.  

Divine Magic is 'given' from a god to a mortal. It represents a fraction of that god's power. Provided you aren't feeding it back to the providing God, and provided the god in question doesn't mind a bit of Holy War, then Divine magic functions normally. Divine Enchantments, ironically, are exempt from this. once the power has been 'used' in the enchantment it no longer 'belongs' to the god, it belongs to the item.

Sorcery is what seperates humans from Gods or demons. That is confusing: Sorcery is essentially what Gods and Demons do instinctively perhaps. Mortals could theoretically become Godlike (essentially Demons, as they are not beholden to Order) with sufficently powerful sorcery.   Very powerful Sorcerers are potentially respected or even feared by Demons and Gods alike as wildcards in the divine realm.  

Shamanic Magic is a challenging one. Spirits are vastly weaker than Gods or Demons, though some powerful spirits are technically one or the other. Spirits have mostly free will and are generally unwilling to offend the higher powers. That said, bound spirits, or suffienctly motivated ones may still 'tip the scales' in a battle. Spirits, of course, may actually be working for a Power other than the 'controlling' Shaman, and have their own purposes in such a battle.

Demonology is another troubling one, worse since I haven't seen the rules. The question is, do Demons provide Demon magic as a twisted 'Gift' or is it wrenched from them against their wishes?  Either way, it works fine against Gods.

So, with these tools at their command, Humans can challenge even the mightiest of foes.   Suffient command of Runes or Sorcery can make a Human into a God or Demon, respectively.  Suffiecent 'command' of divine magic or demonology can make a human a finely honed tool of either a God or demon.

Quote from: Sosthenes"I command the power of Dix!"

(SCNR)

Dix appears and, with a cruel smile, consumes you whole.

Alas, if only you'd worshipped Gax...

Now to take a slight break from the deep metaphysics of the setting until the next curious soul wanders by...

I'm thinking I really want to get more 'nitty gritty' with the broad strokes I've used so far. You know, start layering on details about individual city-states or cultures.  I mean, i could keep sweeping that brush around until I've covered the entire globe, but if the players never decide to vist Catag, why even mention it, much less detail it out. (Catag, a port city on the southern coast of the great sea, past Aegypt/stygia.  Unlike previous cultures, Catag is a true city-state. There are no other 'Catagan' cities, no other nation holds sway over Catag. Their power is based on trade and their nigh on unassailability. Catag is geographically isolated from every other major power, and their naval power rivals that of even the Sea Reavers or the Phaeacians).

The Mortal King of Banlon is an old man. He has seen his city grow from being merely another former tributary of Parsi (in fact, during his youth the city still paid tribute to Parsi, though infrequently) to the center of a 'vast' and fractious empire.  In fact, he's overseen most of those changes personally from his war chariot.  He has shaped the very city to reflect his glory.

Unlike most of the other kings and emperors of the world, he is not the heir to a glorious dynasty.  Though it is little remembered, he was once a slave, captured on the battlefield, a lowly conscript soldier, then a slave soldier. His brilliance on the battlefield saw his release, then promotions as he led the forces of Banlon into victory after victory.  It was he who defied the reigning King about paying tribute to Parsi, it was he who led his meager army to victory, and it was at his feet the God King of Banlon laid the head of the previous king... all this before he had seen his twentieth year.  He has ruled for longer than most of his subjects have been alive, and now approaching his seventies he is a beaten, scarred strip of leather, and he still leads his people to war when the need arises.

He rules from a throne of Bronze, rather than Gold. It is unpadded and unadorned, it sits at the end of the Great Way, at the mouth of the Ziggurat that dominates the city, unshaded.  From here he observes the lesser temples, the merchants and the people of his Empire with an unflinching gaze unmindful of the harsh sun that beats down upon him.  Petitioners, while rare, must mount the seventy seven steps that lead up to the throne while upon their knees.  It is said that none are turned away unheard, or refused.  Some, however, go back down the steps missing their head, others return rewarded.

Diplomats from the other City-states have it easier, ironically so do prisoners. Both, however, must brave the Great Way.

The Great Way itself is a massive brick clad boulevard that runs the length of the city, from the Banlon Gate in the outer wall, in a straight line all the way to the Ziggurat that is also the Great temple to Bal Maduk, the God of Cities, the Conquerer of the Dragons, the Lawgiver, whose spear is the Sun, whose armor is the Walls. The Ziggurat is ritually destroyed and rebuilt every ten years, services are held atop it by the highest priests. It is known that the King is the Runelord of the cult.   At any given time hundreds, if not thousands of the faithful can be seen mounting the great steps of the Ziggurat to pray at the altar.  It is an ordeal, and not without risks. Every so often a worshipper at the altar is chosen for sacrifice, once a year one is chosen to be the next year's God King, his first act is to ritually consume the heart of the previous one. It is a very bad omen if the chosen resists, and a worse one if the outgoing God King does.

Lining the Great Way are huge terracotta statues of Heroes and Gods and fantastic creatures. The closer to the King you get, the larger and more fantastic the statues. Flanking the great steps are statues of Bal Maduk and his mortal enemy the demoness T'Mak. Each is twenty feet tall, Bal Maduk's statue is clad in bronze armor and carries a mighty spear, T'Mak's statue is painted with the blood of each God King since the city's founding, representing her own spilled lifesblood. Legend has it that the blood will not dry for one year, and if it ever does the City will burn with dragonfire.

A newer tradition is the running of the Princes. The King began this ritual the year he ascended to the throne. Rather than take a wife, he would run the streets the night of the first Planting of spring (the equinox) taking any woman he found until the moon was at it's zenith. Any male children born to such a union were brought to the palace, and when they were old enough, they too ran the streets.  As a result there are hundreds of 'princes' of various ages. However, each Prince (and the King, as he runs as well) also carries a stone knife, he is expected to kill any other man he finds on the streets, including his own kin.  Every year many of the princes die. If the King were to die, the one that slays him becomes king.  This has had a remarkably calming effect on royal politics in it's own way.

Banlonians, indeed most of the people of the valley (including the nomads and the other city-states) are a short dark people, with sunbronzed skin and brown or black hair, often bleached by the sun. They favor wool kilts for both genders and elaboratly coifed hair and beards, often curled into many coils and oiled.  A shaven head indicates a slave, though it should be noted that some slaves are very powerful, as palace enuchs and some cult priests are slaves.  There is not much 'slave trade' in Banlon, nor much market.  Gold is prized for decoration, while terracotta is used for utensils. Bronze is actually more valuable than bronze for it's practical uses, especially for the last fifety years.

Children typically follow the careers of their parents, apprenticing in the home, though there are many routes out of this life for talented or ambitious youths. Those who volunteer for the Army are highly respected, and either serve in elite units or as officers over conscripts, however as the Empire has expanded, the army sees more and more use as a 'police' force, guarding the city rather than serving abroad, limiting ambitious men.

the nobility of the city are the merchant princes, the King did away with the hereditary nobles when he rose to power, a move that earned him the love of the people, as the nobility were all Parsian pretenders. The merchant princes don't have any 'legal' ground to stand on, it is their wealth that provides them their status and political power.

At the base of the palace steps (and thus the Ziggurat) is a pillar inscribed with the laws of Banlon, which are simple and harsh.  The pillar is said to be made of the powdered bones of criminals (the former king and his family, other nobles, Parsian diplomates), or demons, depending upon the tale.

The rest of the city spreads east and west from the Great Way, the Ziggurat is to the south. Though the city is positioned to dominate trade on either of the rivers, the city does not actualy touch either bank, instead relying on a series of wood and clay towers topped with catapults along each shore, each served by a small 'trade town' where goods can be unloaded or loaded and taxed. Failing to stop for a tower is to invite shelling from the towers.  

River traffic is mostly barges. while wide, the rivers are not particularly deep or fast moving. Most bargemen cannot swim, the crocodiles discourage such activities anyway.

Quote from: SpikeWell, I haven't had any responses, so I'll continue to work this out on my own... maybe I'm in the wrong forum?

I need to read over the whole thread, which I don' t have time for at the moment.  But I will suggest that if you haven't read Harry Turtledove's book Between the Rivers, you probably should.

John, I'll extend you the same invitation I've been tossing out all along:

Take what you like from here or from Turtledove or Populous, or...

And MAKE something! In here! go go gogogogogogo

Hmm.... more hard slogging work. Rather than attempt to capture sweeping vistas, the almighty powers, or the far corners of the globe, I thought I'd try to get some details that can add feeling and color at the player level of the game.

Food and drink....

the most common things to drink are various fermented beverages. The nomadic arcadians like fermented mare's milk mixed with honey, the cities of the Banlon empire, along with those of the Aegypt/stygia (I really need to make up my mind here...) prefer a thick, almost soupy flat beer. the Parsi drink a mead most commonly, but have perfected a means of making a crude brandy (fermented fruit liquor) from figs and dates.  Weak wine is prefered in Thrace and beyond, in Boetia and at sea... particularly because it staves of scurvy, unlike the beers of the East and south, but isn't inclined to make you drunk like the brandy of the Parsian.

Beer especially is respected as being a gift from the gods, and has been a traditional drink since time immemorial, though wine has the same legends and history in Boetia and it neighbors.  The Arcadians claim the HorseLord gave them Mouc(fermented mare's milk)  in return for their piousness in abandoning their cities.

Foodwise, the cities from the sea to Banlon favor dates, olives and flatbreads made from local grains (wheat, with millet being popular farther north near Anatolia), The Parsi like candied fruits, especially figs and dates stuffed with chopped nuts, they also enjoy whole roasted mice glazed with honey, so who knows, right?

The arcadians make a millet stew that 'hardens' into a cake they can eat 'on the go', they also eat jerked meat (and I don't mean jamacian jerk, I mean jerky jerking...), ranging from old horse to game animals.  However, Arcadians will not eat fish or birds.... if it doesn't walk the earth they won't touch it for religious reasons. Note that many expatriated Arcadians are much less likely to follow these Taboo's than ones living in Anatolia.  

Seafood is common on the coast, and a very expensive delicacy in places like Banlon and Parsi, due to the need to have a powerful mage on hand for magical refridgerant OR extremely fancy aquarium wagons and expensive dray teams to haul them (all those metal fittings)...

Meat is a delicacy for most people, ironically the 'poor' tribesmen eat much more meat than the comparativly rich city people. Most of the tribes make their living herding various animals, which they slaughter for food regularly.  

Clothing among the Arcadians is primarily leather, with a crude felt being used as well. What cloth tends to come primarily from trade or is woven from hair (human or horse).

Farther south wool is dominant, although such term encompasses all animal hair products. Linen and other plant fiber clothes are only common once you reach the southern shore of the Great Sea (aegypt and Catag, Nok and others).

One thing I should definitely figure out... with help from anyone who actually reads this thing of course... is:

How fantastic do I want to get?  I mean, hell, we got magic, we got Gods and Demons running 'round causin' trouble, we got just about everything short of the god damn Ducks. And we can always find room for Ducks if we miss them. (there's always room for ducks...)

But I've got about a dozen or so human kingdoms, bronze weapons, and a seriously fetishistic habit of taking real history and absolutely raping it for both ideas and inspiration. At least here.  I mean, I got no designs on putting out playable races from traditional (whateva dat mean) fantasy.

So right now I've got psuedo historical claptrap with real magic(tm) thrown into the mix and not much else. Dull, boring, lifeless.

Or is it? I mean, is there a problem with having Cat Riding savages (or not savage, maybe hyper-civilized), and more funky business?  Heck, Jrients gave us dionysian lesbian snake worshippers, right?

Coming to a website near you...

Maps.


As soon as I figure out how to work this damn thing...

Have you thought about posting your homebrew at the MRQWiki?

Sweet Jeebus!

I'd forgotten about this one. THis is the OLD setting, not the new setting, this is like a Mythic Earth Proto-Heroic Setting...

I think the other setting (the one with elves and such) is around here somewhere though.... That's the one I actually ran...