With my Runequest game pending the post holiday season, I thought I'd start polishing up my setting.  Nothing helps complexity in a world like drawing upon extra brains, right?  So, I've strapped the back up brain around my waist, and waded into the murky depths of the intarweb in search of a few useful minds to mine.

To begin with, I have no intention of using Gloratha, whatever the fuck might be implied by that word. No Ducks for me, nor necessarily broo (who at least have the advantage of being a credible threat)... as none of my prospective players to date have any prior's with Glorantha, this should not be a difficulty.

However, I am not working in a total vacuum. I like the idea of a bronze age setting, though historical bronze age is a little too close to stoneage for my player's tastes.  The idea then is to follow a progression from late bronze age to early iron, only with a paucity of metal (iron). Technology and social structures continued to evolve but with so little iron no one has really done anything with it. Iron takes on the story role of a magical metal.

I don't think I need to do anything rule wise about the metal situation, if everyone is using the same stuff and all that.



On to the actual setting then, shall we?

What I've worked up so far is pretty sketchy and incomplete. You've got a big multi-tribal group of Arcadians wandering around Anatolia, bitching about their lost Holy City, claiming it is/was at the location of the seat of the local Empire to the south.  The Arcadians came out of the far north, or so legends say and laid claim to all they surveyed, led by Manas.  According to their own myths they ruled a vast empire from the Holy City (it has a different name depending upon which tribe is telling the tale), until it was destroyed by the Gods for some unnamed sin.  Most everyone else thinks the Arcadians have always been barbarian nomads who occasionally form a horde under some charismatic leader and lay waste to more civilized lands until stopped or their leader dies.

Anatolia is, naturally enough, a mountainous plateau. Lots of scrub, dry cool nights, hot days.   I should work up some details of the Arcadians culture. How they dress and such like.  I have a few ideas in mind but the exact details escape me.

South of Anatolia is a wide river valley, populated with a number of ancient city states, the largest one, Banlon, has gathered the rest into an Empire of sorts.  The Cities are huge walled affairs, and aside from the river trade the spaces between are rough lawless lands, populated by tribes of herders and bandits (often one and the same). While the various tribes of herdsmen owe fealty to the Empire, they are not really part of it and worship their own strange gods and, much as the Arcadian's do, practice primative magics (rune and spirit magic mostly), even speaking their own languages.

The city folk worship a bewildering array of gods as well, placating them according to complex ritual cycles.  The Empire is ruled by two kings, the mortal king who oversees all the mundane business of running an empire, and the God-King, who is ritually sacrificed every winter (between the harvest and the planting, when the weather starts to change...) who is in charge of transmitting the will of the Gods to mortals. Cults and sorcery are prevalent and powerful, though there are enough visitors to ensure that just about everything is represented somewhere.

To the west of the valley is low rolling hills, rather than actual mountians, a grassy plains, hotter than Anatolia year round, but lush and fertile. Then the coast, where the Empire has little direct control, but instead exacts tribute from the local city-states. Of course, the sea-faring nomads are a huge threat to the locals.  South of the valley is the Desert of Dis, home to powerful demons and madmen, ruins and wonders. North of Anatolia is the Sea of Grass, a huge flat plain, cut by a single river, dotted with small villages. North of them it gets progressively colder, the lands of the fearsome Kurgan peoples, barely more than savages, said to eat children and all the other horrible stories.




More or less, the setting is derived from our own history, made mythic and new... or so I hope.  While I could attempt to expand the entire world out, I hope instead to add richness and depth to what I started here.

Feel free to contribute. Knowledge of rules is not necessary.

Well, I haven't had any responses, so I'll continue to work this out on my own... maybe I'm in the wrong forum?

Transportation for the most part would be on foot or horseback. Chariots are rare and valuable, primarily for high nobility or military use, due to the scarcity of metal. Ox drawn carts would be slightly more common, due to lower tolerances in construction, but many goods would be transported by barge on the rivers, and by ship along the coast.

Mining is done in secret. Active mines are valuable state secrets, though that term wouldn't be used, and are protected. More, the actual mining and smelting is handled 'on site' by holy men, secret orders. This is true in the Empire, and it is true for the less organized Arcadians. The act of pulling ore from the earth is viewed as sacred by everyone, and those permitted to do so pay for the priviledge with deformities and holy afflictions (madness, neurological disorders).  This only applies to copper and tin mining and smelting, however. Iron is not mined at all, but is a gift from the sky gods, and is collected from where it falls.  Since it is so haphazard, those who know how to work it are rare and viewed as magicians of the highest order, which is often true in other ways as well.  Weapons or armor made of iron are virtually unheard of, though bronze weapons with an iron edge are typical of those who have access.  

The Banlon empire has fought with another empire to the far south and west, as well as exchanged diplomats. Currently there is peace.  For those willing to brave the sea raiders an island empire (possibly the home of the sea raiders) is known.

Quote from: SpikeWell, I haven't had any responses, so I'll continue to work this out on my own... maybe I'm in the wrong forum?

You lost me at "no ducks".

I really like your ideas about mines, though.

Also:  How about some secret, female-only cult?  Possibly sinister bachanal-types or demeter earth-mother proto-hippies.  Preferably both.

Well, with the no ducks thing I really shouldn't call it runequest, should I?

But there is absolutely room for all female cults as well, worshippers of fertility goddesses, amazons in the jungles to the far south...

why don't you work something up? I'd be happy to fold it in.

Quote from: jrientsAlso:  How about some secret, female-only cult?  Possibly sinister bachanal-types or demeter earth-mother proto-hippies.  Preferably both.

One of these days, I'd like to see the secret, female-only cult be something on the order of "Mrs. Cleavers."  They're secretly trying "to put women in the kitchen" instead of empowering them.  I grow weary of all the empowement stuff.  This would be different, unique and completely un-PC.  

Imagine how they'd try to drag your female rogue character into their midst, slowly changing out her leather armor for a puffy skirt and a poofy hairdo.  Her breastplate changed to an apron, her sword to a scrub-brush, all the while subtle, deep magic would make her start wanting to put the male members of the party first, cooking for them and cleaning up the dinner dishes.

Now that would be a sinister organization worthy of fighting against!  

Quotewhy don't you work something up? I'd be happy to fold it in.

The Sisterhood of the Serpent holds a loose body of mystic lore passed mostly from mother to daughter or daughter-in-law.  The Sisters keep all the rites of the other local gods, but also practice their own planting and harvest rituals.  These rituals can get a little wild, as they often involve ingesting hallucinogenic fungus, speaking in tongues, and snake-handling.  Men caught observing these festivities seldom live to tell the tale, as tripping sisters often see intruders as demons and fight back with magic and the occasional trained giant snake.  The rest of the year the Sisterhood is nearly invisible, but a traveller who has helped a member will often be privately directed to a wise woman further down the road who can provide shelter, food, and maybe some minor magical asistance.  The Sisters have only one holy shrine, built over a smoking crack in the side of a cloud-shadowed mountain.  There it is said that the Great Mother, the ancient and wizened head of the cult, can hear voices on the wind.  Sometimes the voices are kings in their intrigues, sometimes it is the long dead sharing lost secrets, from time-to-time she can even hear the whispers of the gods.  It is said that each initiated sister has the right to ask one question of the Great Mother.

That's what I've got off the top of my head.  Sprinkle with lesbianism to taste.

"With the exception of steel, bronze is superior to iron in nearly every application."  [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronze]

It seems that iron tools caught on when tin became too scarce (Civ4, I think?)


Cheers,
Roger

Nice, J... scary but cool:D

Historically there were female only cults, the worship of Isis, for example was female dominated, though not at all anti-male in outlook (after all, they were in the business of blowjobs at one point...expirence the goddess and all that).

My understanding of the principle difference between early iron and bronze work was that Iron is harder, but tends to brittleness, where as bronze is softer, thus doesn't hold it's edge well.  I've seen an iron age bronze 'helmet smasher' that is a clear indication that bronze does retain it's usefulness into iron eras for some time in weapons and armor...

The key is, that a skilled smith can input carbon into iron during the forging process to make it steel... thus the ability to forge iron, in setting is restricted to powerful 'mages'... but thanks for the link, it's been a while since I really looked at the differences from outside of games.

Quote from: Roger"With the exception of steel, bronze is superior to iron in nearly every application."  [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronze]

It seems that iron tools caught on when tin became too scarce (Civ4, I think?)

Ultimately bronze as a major industrial metal was doomed because iron is everywhere while copper/tin is relatively rare. As soon as we had developed the processes and energy infrastructure for smelting iron that was going to be that. Any tin shipping problems would have only have moved up the timeline of the inevitable.  Plus "steel" is one hell of an exception, and remains the standard for judging other materials by in so many applications.

True, but he makes a very good point in relation to my established mcguffin of the setting, that the only iron available is meteoric iron. Hardly realistic, given the prevalence of iron in the universe, but we could accept that the Iron in this mythic setting is not available by conventional mining techniques, and that there is no Sponge Iron byproduct of the copper mining (or is unrecognized or hidden away by the miners whose livelihood and social status is at stake, after all...)

One thing that has me temporarily confounded is the issue of scope: Do I expand to cover a much wider scale of the world, out to a british isle analog, down through africa past Aegypt (or stygia for a conan style feel) to the jungle, or rather sub saharan kingdom of Nok and beyond.  


I'm not entirely certain, as the area I so blithly overviewed in the OP covered more territory than most people see in their entire lives, even today, on the other hand, 'just over the hill' almost never stops... there is always another hill... Also, I'm not sure how far removed from real history I want to go. Flat earth is not out of the question here...

One thing I intend to make full use of is the Runequest types of magic.  For those of you not keeping up with the runequest rules, the types of magic are Divine, Rune, Sorcery, Shamanic, Dragon and Demonology.  I currently do not have Dragon or Demonology, and my only source for Shamanic magic is a previous edition of the game. Nonetheless....

Divine Magic is obviously the magic of the major religions and their temples. Worship is largely panthestic in nature for the average person, for the purposes of being granted spells you need to be a dedicated member of a cult to a specific god.  

Now: Each ethnic group has their own gods. Each city-state will have either their own take on the pantheon, or perhaps even their own gods, in whole or in part.  For the most part temples will have icons and statues of several gods, even if they are dedicated to just one.  Also, in keeping with the feeling of the age, the center of most cities will be a vast temple/palace complex.  

This is important for the following reason: Magic that is not granted by the appropriate pantheonic gods is completely ineffective inside of a temple. Other divine magic can work, though this is cause for a major holy war, rune magic MIGHT work (if it's the right rune...) simply because runes are said to be the blood of the Gods. Demonology would work, if only because the demons are the enemies of the gods... but Sorcery would not, nor would shamanic magic,as the spirits know better.

Rune magic is the most developed for use in game, and is easiest for players to start with.   Other than a brief aside about the nature of runes, there isn't much to explain what is their role in the metaphysical reality of the game.

I see it thusly: the runes are linked to the Gods, but are not dependent upon them, like two different facets of a gem.  The Gods fall under certain roles, which are linked to the Runes. As there is a Rune of Man, so there is a God of Man in any given pantheon.  Naturally the gods are a bit more diverse and complex, often having multiple runes assosiated with them.  Cults dedicated to a specific God naturally want to collect as many appropriate runes as they can for the glory of their God. On the other hand, a Cult might form around a sort of Ur-God, a specific concept that is not tied to single God. It could even be formed around a specific rune.  Long standing Cults (other than temple Cults) may actually develop Divine Magic, possibly creating their own God. This is true of wide spread Ur-Cults that are not tied to a specific nation or ethnicity (such as Mithras Cults).

Shamanic Magic is uncommon in the city-states, but prevalent everywhere else. It is the magic of dealing with spirits, barginning for power. Spirits are respected as little gods everywhere.  The only notable details are the facts that spirit magic/shamisim is completely useless in a Temple dedicated to a God (caveats apply re: alliances.  A spirit of the Hunt might be viewed as an ally to a God of the hunt... might), and that very powerful Shaman are said to be able to create Runes, though this is only a rumor. Shaman are perfectly willing to use any Runes they can, in addition to their own native magics.

Sorcerers rip magic from the world by force of will, relying on nothing but their own knowledge to do so. They are the scientists of their world. Very often scholars, astronomers and alchemists as well, the art of sorcery can be learned by anyone. Not that everyone DOES. Sorcerers can be very peculiar about their knowledge and who they share it with. More importantly, they are often feared, especially outside the cities.  Many people accuse them of shaking the very pillars of heaven, greedily stealing from the Gods for their own amusement.  Many Sorcerers capitalize on this fear, feeling that it is easier to make people afraid of them by mundane means, than to waste precious magic chasing them away...  
In their own way, Sorcerers are involved in a Holy War of their own against the preists of the temples and cults.  There is only so much political power to go around, after all...

Dragon magic is, according to the book, the magic of dragonnewts. I don't intend to use dragonnewts in any real capacity, though one supposes that ancient ruins could be scattered hither and yon, vestiges of an ancient lost civilization... regardless, i don't intend to discard Dragon Magic either.  Consider the alien-ness of another civilization that worships Gods and yet uses magic completely alien to your culture. Depending upon what Dragon Magic actually does (guesswork since it hasn't reached my library yet), it could replace both divine magic and sorcery in a foriegn land... We'll see...

Demonology is another magic I don't have rules for, so I'm forced to guess. In my cosmology, Demons are the dark mirror of the Gods. They are not Evil Gods (those exist and are worshipped openly), they are actually enemies of the Gods, tricksters and villians of myth. I've already stated that Demon magic (I'm going to guess that demonology is used much like shamanic magic, in that you summon demons and 'tap' them for magic knowledge) is fully useable in temples, essentially Demons are involved in a holy war against all the Gods all the time, thus they are happy to have their powers used in inappropriate places.
But what do Demons want?  What seperates a Demon (who is Godlike) from an ordinary run of the mill 'evil' God?

In one sense the Demons represent the old order. They have no concern for Man, or his worship. An Evil God represents the order of things, can be placated by sacrifice and worship. An Evil God will provide benefits to the devout.  A Demon does neither, at least not directly. A worshipper is as likely to be devoured as the non-believer. Demon, especially the powerful ones, have egos that can be flattered with worship and temples or fanes, but unlike Gods they derive nothing from them. More importantly, Demons are not tied to Runic domains; Power without responsibility, raiders instead of farmers.


This turned out to be a very interesting exercise in expanding the setting.

Sadly, no one seems to have any good idea to toss in the mix

I'll just keep grinding out on my own then.

To the East of the Banlon Empire is the old, decadent Parsi Empire. At one time the Parsi empire ruled the known world, at least by their own accounts, and the Banlon's are relatively recent usurpers.  Despite the relative closeness, the two cultures could not be more different.  

The Parsian's first conquered their lands in ages past with their cataphractoi, armored horsemen. Indeed, the Parsi are famed for their horses, and are said to be the first Men to domesticate them.  Animals play a huge role in Parsian life, cataphracts don't just ride horses, they ARE horses. Footsoldiers are called Dogs, and their officers are notable for the highly stylized 'dog'shead' helmets they wear.
Parsian armor consists of a long coat of leather sewn with disks of horn or bone close together, helmets are peaked bowls of many plates, sheilds are made of leather stretched over wood, spears and bows are the weapons of choice for boot Dog and Horse.

The King of Parsi is the Lion of Parsi, and is said to ride to war atop an ensorcelled Lion, surrounded by his elite enuch bodyguards, the Elephants.

It is said the Cult of Mithras formed in southern Parsi long ago, when the local skygod of a tiny village was slain by the Parsian king.  It is notable that the Parsian's only have two gods, and all other gods are viewed as Demons.  Ahar is the Lightbringer, the Lord of fire and the Sun. His dark twin is Anga, the thirsty, Lord of Darkness and death.  Both are worshipped openly, though Anga's worship takes the form of appeasement.   Notable facets of the faith are the fact that they are in a permanent state of holy war with other faiths AND the Parsi Gods do not apparently mind if their followers truck with demons. Demonology is prevalent, though is viewed as the purview of Anga, who is this role is viewed as the Demonking.  Devout of Anga are said to be protected from the attentions of all demons as long as their faith is true.  Conversely, devout of Ahar are said to have power to destoy demons.

The land of Parsi is fairly lush, rolling hills and light forests are common. To the west, near the Banlon empire, the grasslands tend to run drier, nearly desert like, and the sun is merciless.  Politically, Parsi is much more unified, no City-states, just cities of the Empire.  Each major city is ruled by a prince who is a relative of the King of Parsi.  

Several generations ago the Parsi lost a huge army in the west, beyond Banlon and Anatolia.  That is viewed by sages as the beginning of the decline of Parsi, it is that event that allowed the subject kings of Banlon to rebel.  Since then the Parsi empire has suffered numerous lesser setbacks, the loss of a city in the north to Arcadian hordes, the attempted Usurpation by the Magi, which is why sorcery is not commonly practiced anymore.

Most interestingly, from an adventurer's point of view, in the far south of what USED to be Parsi lands, and was at one time the origins of the Mithras Cults, a great city was swallowed up overnight by the sands of a terrible desert than sprang from nowhere. This happened at nearly the same time as the loss of the great army of Dariu in the West, and many say it was a sign that the heavens had turned their face away from the heresies of the Parsi faith.

Of course, the Arcadians, who view all cities as cursed by the gods simply shrug as if they knew it was going to happen all along.

Parsi is a rich country, but the land is relatively metal poor. Tin mines are common, but copper is nearly unheard of, the few mines long ago played out.  The loss of tribute from outlying territories has seriously crippled the Parsi empire's resurgance, though few realize this.  As a result, recently the Parsi have taken to venerating heirloom weapons, investing them with spirits and souls.   Swords are rare, naturally, but highly valued.  A contributing factor in this is the loss of the Magi, who were the keepers of the secret lore of metals. While mining is still carried out under the auspices of Anga, smelting requires, from a faith aspect, the blending of Earth and Fire, and only the Magi (decended from the tribe of Mede) knew the secrets.

Thinking about the sweeping terms I've used to describe geographical features in previous posts, and looking at a map of the 'real world' region I'm horribly mangling, I can see that I'll have to sit down and actually draw a crude map that will depict my almost accidental changes... and show me the holes I need to fill.

As of right now I have the Arcadians (who should be Akkadians, but never mind that now...) roaming ALL of Anatolia, which could be renamed Ionia, which shuts out a lot of good stuff that could be squeezed in there, like the ruddy skinned, read headed Hite culture, which if my comments about Parsi and Banlon remain true, haven't expanded into a real empire at this point. Ironically, given the Arcadian historio-myth of a lost empire, they could be the decendants of the Hites instead, which is vaguely how I played them out earlier.

Anyone up to describe Boetia or the Telechines or even the Phaeacians for me?

What about something easier, like the Egypt analog?

One thing I've taken into consideration recently is the status of the PC's in the game world. Of course, i don't actually HAVE PC's yet, this is prep work for what I hope will be a long running, epic campaign that will rock the very pillars of Gaming!

The PC's aren't adventurers. There are no 'adventurers' running around willy nilly. The PC's are heroes. Maybe proto-heroes to begin with, but Heroes. They aren't really in competition with other NPC Heroes... those guys are all in the distant past.

PC's, especially Heroes, are able to ignore or out and out violate manys social customs at will.  Things like the 'proper role of women'... though if you've been paying attention I haven't been trying to define that, it's just a good sample.  There aren't any real agents of 'enforcing the moral codes' of the various societies that the players will encounter. Most people just DO go with the social norm, those that don't often have other problems (like insanity or criminal behavior) that makes their social problems secondary at best.  That's not to say that the PC's might not raise eyebrows... but most folks will simply shrug and ignore the eccentricities of the PC's.  

Speaking of social norms: what are the norms? That depends upon where exactly you are, really.  Many of the more tribal peoples that wander the spaces between cities have one set of laws for dealing with tribemembers, and another set for dealing with outsiders.  Tribes generally will be insular and to an extent puritanical in their outlook.  In the cities the primary concern is for maintaining a sense of civility, rather than moral uprightness.

One constant is religiousity. The Gods are real, their power evident across the world. Failure to respect them and their power is unthinkable, the sort of thing that only evil people do.  Regular sacrifices at temples, prayers and icons over every event, good or bad.   While the PC's will be able to worship THIER gods in peace, they are still expected to believe.  They won't be punished by the Gods (I'm the GM, and I say so...), they will have issues around other people.  

Another constant, and one more likely to trip the PC's up is 'Gender Roles'.  Again, this might fluxtuate depending upon region, but primarily men are expected to do all the fighting and (less constant) the governing. Women are more prevelant in the temples (depending upon faith, some are male only).  However, outside these two facets societies are fairly egalitarian.  I do not expect to make a big deal out of this.

One issue that I would normally leave completely alone is homosexuality. However, since one (possibly two) of my players are gay, I should be prepared. Thus: in most cultures who you 'love' is unimportant as long as you do your duty to your family/tribe. Marraiges are often arranged, certainly among the upper classes. Romantic love is not common or expected, and in some cases is viewed as an abberation outside of youth.   Prostituition is common and respected (with ties to fertility goddess cults and Mystery cults), male prostituites, however do not exist in the cultures I've mentioned so far, not as an instition.  In fact, as the city-states evolved from, and are still influenced by, the existing local tribes, it is more accurate to state that homosexuality is tolerated, rather than accepted.  

What else?  Sacrifice, yes. A common aspect of faith is sacrifice. Most 'good' gods demand sacrifice of grains and perfumes, so called 'evil' gods demand animals and occasionally humans if things are really bad.  It is important to note that 'evil' in this respect is a vastly different creature than 'evil' in the modern sense.  Such Gods and sacrifices are part of the Order of things and are more 'unpleasant' than 'evil'. Evil is reserved for things that violate the Order. Demons and those who 'worship' them primarily. Politically, atheists and worshippers of gods from a warring culture would also count.  That is to say, if the PC's attempt to rescue an infant being sacrificed to appease the local God of Drought, THEY would be viewed as the Evil ones.  Now, if they could prove (or 'prove'..) that the God was really a Demon pretending to be a God, or end the drought some other way, then their actions would become Heroic.   The fact that Demons do stuff like this is proof of their evil...

Where do you draw the line between gods and demons? One tribes god might be the other guys demon. Maybe you could include some kind of Small Gods link between the faithful and the power of their divine patron.

I don't know why, but I get that "Populous(tm)" feel when I read your posts