Quote from: Osman Gazi on September 16, 2022, 09:25:28 AM

Quote from: Omega on September 16, 2022, 08:50:12 AM

Quote from: THE_Leopold on September 15, 2022, 12:49:00 PM
I don't have a copy of Star Frontiers in front of me to cross reference.  That seems highly skeptical that old TSR would go down the race route back in the day.  Seems rather odd choice. 

I have the original TSR SF AND the original playtest materials. Theres no such thing in the book. Any claims that the original SF was in any way Wacist is a flat out lie. But then thats all these cultists do is lie. Even when they tell the truth they have to somehow lie.

By "original playtest materials" do you mean original when Star Frontiers first came out, or nuTSR's playtest materials?  And if it's nuTSR's playtest materials, is it the same materials covered in this video (referenced above)?  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fD9evesvAos

Interested in the answer to this too. I'm assuming Omega was referring to the original works based on the fact legal documents attacking the recent work are referenced. But if those excerpts were not in the new play test materials then something odd is going on.

Regardless, whomever wrote what was referenced in your original post created objectively racist content. And while I get it that the danger hairs cry wolf over everything, we only keep the high ground if we can actually recognize a wolf when we see it. I believe you did a good job making that point.

Quote from: Venka on September 16, 2022, 03:23:13 PM
Are you sure?  nuTSR has laid claim to the TSR brand and the Star Frontiers brand for years now, and Hasbro is suing them explicitly citing the "racist and transphobic" content.  Why was it ok for them to be called TSR for years but suddenly now there's a lawsuit?

Because of the wackadoodle racism in the nuTSR version is why Hasbro has to sue it for no other reason. I'm not a lawyer, so I can't speak to their lawsuit's strengths or weaknesses, but just as a public relations matter they have to sue. If they don't sue nuTSR then that would be seen by some/many that Hasbro is in essence fine with the nuTSR version, and no major corporation is going to be want to be seen as "fine" with an endeavor that reads like anything close to a FATAL or RaHoWa version of the original IP they owned. It Hasbro wins then they're happy to smack down nuTSR. If they lose then at least they tried their best to stop nuTSR. If they do nothing then at best they look like they don't care that this IP that's associated with their company is basically a scifi StormFront game, and that's at best. So sue they will.

What's a downer for me is that I can see Hasbro going overboard on locking down any fan efforts with their IP (remember the T$R days). How can they not go overboard now? They took their eye off the ball so to speak, and now there are idiots trying to publish a Star Frontiers game with 'Negro' and 'Mexican' subraces.

Quote from: wmarshal on September 16, 2022, 03:53:35 PM

Quote from: Venka on September 16, 2022, 03:23:13 PM
Are you sure?  nuTSR has laid claim to the TSR brand and the Star Frontiers brand for years now, and Hasbro is suing them explicitly citing the "racist and transphobic" content.  Why was it ok for them to be called TSR for years but suddenly now there's a lawsuit?

Because of the wackadoodle racism in the nuTSR version is why Hasbro has to sue it for no other reason. I'm not a lawyer, so I can't speak to their lawsuit's strengths or weaknesses, but just as a public relations matter they have to sue. If they don't sue nuTSR then that would be seen by some/many that Hasbro is in essence fine with the nuTSR version, and no major corporation is going to be want to be seen as "fine" with an endeavor that reads like anything close to a FATAL or RaHoWa version of the original IP they owned. It Hasbro wins then they're happy to smack down nuTSR. If they lose then at least they tried their best to stop nuTSR. If they do nothing then at best they look like they don't care that this IP that's associated with their company is basically a scifi StormFront game, and that's at best. So sue they will.

What's a downer for me is that I can see Hasbro going overboard on locking down any fan efforts with their IP (remember the T$R days). How can they not go overboard now? They took their eye off the ball so to speak, and now there are idiots trying to publish a Star Frontiers game with 'Negro' and 'Mexican' subraces.

Not a lawyer either but:

Given the first ammendment how could WotC win such lawsuit?

They don't own the TSR or Starfrontiers brands, isn't the owner to those rights able to publish whatever he wants?

Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 16, 2022, 04:02:58 PMGiven the first ammendment how could WotC win such lawsuit?

They don't own the TSR or Starfrontiers brands, isn't the owner to those rights able to publish whatever he wants?

If there was a fair lawsuit evaluating things by the actual laws, sure, good point.
But we don't have that.  Once it's even semi-plausibly claimed that these guys are racist, somehow the court will go against them.  Our court system is used to illegally punish people who are racist or even just seen as such, because it is a weapon and not much else.

The only reason there's any chance, in my opinion, is that the materials in question were never published, and the owners might claim that the leaker or someone else is either The Only Racist or is engaged in Making Them Look Racist.  Given how these were leaked, I think that's unlikely.  If they rely on "it's our brand and we can make a Mexcan subrace with taco-related racial spells if we want because the first amendment america bald eagle", they'll lose their trademarks to the big corporation and be forced to pay reparations.  Which I guess probably is what's gonna happen.  I guess the point I'm confused about is, do they own these trademarks free and clear or not.  If they really obviously unarguably do, then there's a chance that something else goes down- they surrender the trademarks for a paltry sum and get to scamper away, for instance.

If my company merges with a new company, and we stop using one or both old names, it's normal to let them expire.

If someone uses those names to try to IMPLY that they have an association or connection to my company (that no longer uses those names) I can object to that use. 

If it is very clear that they're not associated with me (like in another industry) and they're not using that name to try to to profit from existing brand recognition, I probably can't do much.  But if they are creating confusion for consumers it's more of an issue.

If nuTSR was selling computers, they'd probably be fine.  But since they're in TTRPG, maybe less so. 

Quote from: Venka on September 16, 2022, 04:10:02 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 16, 2022, 04:02:58 PMGiven the first ammendment how could WotC win such lawsuit?

They don't own the TSR or Starfrontiers brands, isn't the owner to those rights able to publish whatever he wants?

If there was a fair lawsuit evaluating things by the actual laws, sure, good point.
But we don't have that.  Once it's even semi-plausibly claimed that these guys are racist, somehow the court will go against them.  Our court system is used to illegally punish people who are racist or even just seen as such, because it is a weapon and not much else.

The only reason there's any chance, in my opinion, is that the materials in question were never published, and the owners might claim that the leaker or someone else is either The Only Racist or is engaged in Making Them Look Racist.  Given how these were leaked, I think that's unlikely.  If they rely on "it's our brand and we can make a Mexcan subrace with taco-related racial spells if we want because the first amendment america bald eagle", they'll lose their trademarks to the big corporation and be forced to pay reparations.  Which I guess probably is what's gonna happen.  I guess the point I'm confused about is, do they own these trademarks free and clear or not.  If they really obviously unarguably do, then there's a chance that something else goes down- they surrender the trademarks for a paltry sum and get to scamper away, for instance.

For the most part, you're right. Ultimately this comes down to who has the better claim to the StarFrontier trademark. Whoever can prove that is likely to win the case. The problem here is that it's very likely to be an embroiled suit. WotC let the IP slip for almost two decades, doing almost nothing with it except selling old versions. Meanwhile, if NuTSR was serious about their claim, why didn't they file a C&D on WotC for still selling those old versions?
Both sides have, in my estimate, a tenuous grasp to the rights. If it comes down to a proverbial coin-flip, the courts will probably side with WotC since they were the last to actually purchase the IP.

The lawsuit, however, seems to be over defamation and damage to brand (I'll have to read the linked briefing when I get a chance). That would solely come down to who owns the brand, which, as I mentioned above, is a whole separate issue. You bring up a good point about the material never being meant for public distribution. The materials were more akin to a private table making house rules. It's interesting to wonder whether WotC thinks they can sue customers for using their product "the wrong way." However, the law recognizes implied intent as a legal basis, and a gaming company holding "playtest" sessions implies they wish to publish. It's still a weak leg to stand on, since all kinds of changes can (and do) happen BEFORE publication. So, again, it's hard to claim damage from something that was never officially released to the public.

Also, since it was brought up a couple times, simply selling a product doesn't really equate to actively protecting a trademark. A company would need to produce new items to be able to make that claim. Selling a book from 40 years ago because you bought the legal right to distribute it won't cut it. Barnes&Nobel has the right to sell tons of books they don't own the IPs to. If I wrote a ripoff Star Wars book, or Harry Potter or whatever, B&N has no legal grounds to sue me.

Now, I'm not sure how close the WotC/nuTSR situation is to the B&N analogy, but from what I can see, the water is murky on both sides of the river.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 16, 2022, 04:02:58 PM
Not a lawyer either but:

Given the first ammendment how could WotC win such lawsuit?

They don't own the TSR or Starfrontiers brands, isn't the owner to those rights able to publish whatever he wants?

From the suit, Wizards claims that they do own "TSR" and "Star Frontiers" as pre-existing common-law trademarks, and that LaNasa's federal registration of those as its trademarks is invalid. As with others - I am not a lawyer - but it seems common law trademarks exist simply from usage and don't need to be registered.

https://www.gerbenlaw.com/blog/an-overview-of-common-law-trademark-rights/

Common law trademarks may be marked with "TM" but don't have to be. My impression is that even if officially registered, a trademark can be invalid if it exists only to deceive customers about what they are buying. WotC claim that LaNasa's "TSR" and "Star Frontiers" trademarks are only to capitalize on their intellectual property - i.e. the products of the original TSR that they have no ownership of. As such, they are deceptive and the registration is invalid - and WotC's common-law trademarks should take precedence.

Someone else could use "Star Frontiers" as a title and/or trademark, but only if they weren't trying to be deceptive. i.e. A company could use it because it's a cool name for marketing to new players are interested by who never heard of the original. Again, though, I'm not a lawyer and that's just my reading of the argument.

Quote from: Venka on September 16, 2022, 03:23:13 PM
Are you sure?  nuTSR has laid claim to the TSR brand and the Star Frontiers brand for years now, and Hasbro is suing them explicitly citing the "racist and transphobic" content.  Why was it ok for them to be called TSR for years but suddenly now there's a lawsuit?

There have been multiple people owning the trademarks.
Hexagonist Publishing LLC acquired the trademark for 'TSR Games'  (back in 2011). 
TSR GAMES RETURNS Hexagonist Acquires Rights to Name
Later they acquired the 'Star Frontiers' trademark, although I don't think they did anything with it.
When it was abandoned (2 years ago?) TSR LLC (nuTSR) acquired it.

Quote from: jeff37923 on September 15, 2022, 06:33:36 PM
No problem. I'm paying attention to this story because a lot of great work has been done by the online Dark Sun people and they are in a similar IP situation. The only real difference is that they do their stuff for free while NuTSR intended to sell theirs.

Both Dark Sun and Birthright have had tremendous online support from fans, ever since the 3E days.

DS got published again in 4E, but nothing since then. Birthright has had zilch since the release of the video game The Gorgon's Alliance way back when.

Mystara is also in the same boat, with Mr. Welch's work converting the setting to 5E having been released for free because he could not get WotC to allow him to publish his book on the DM's Guild, despite no plans whatsoever to use Mystara ever again.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 16, 2022, 04:02:58 PM
...

Not a lawyer either but:

Given the first ammendment how could WotC win such lawsuit?

They don't own the TSR or Starfrontiers brands, isn't the owner to those rights able to publish whatever he wants?

All this defamation/racism malarky just shows that NuTSR are a bunch of natural born losers that couldn't make a viable game if the fate of the world depended on it.

NuTSR was a grift from the beginning.

There are no white hats in this boondoggle.

That being said, WotC did let their trademark registration lapse...

Quote from: jhkim on September 16, 2022, 05:29:59 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 16, 2022, 04:02:58 PM
Not a lawyer either but:

Given the first ammendment how could WotC win such lawsuit?

They don't own the TSR or Starfrontiers brands, isn't the owner to those rights able to publish whatever he wants?

From the suit, Wizards claims that they do own "TSR" and "Star Frontiers" as pre-existing common-law trademarks, and that LaNasa's federal registration of those as its trademarks is invalid. As with others - I am not a lawyer - but it seems common law trademarks exist simply from usage and don't need to be registered.
...

I just happened to stay at a Holiday in Express last night...

Common law trademarks have geographical restrictions. They're basically meant to make it so that I cannot just open a new restaurant with the same name as a popular local one in the next town over hoping to take advantage of name recognition. They do not give the same level of rights as a federally registered trademark. A common law trademark will not protect that same local restaurant if I opened one with the same name the next state over.

WotC is trying to muddy the waters with all the defamation/racism idiocy in true lawfare style, IMHO it's interesting that they are relying on the  their Common law trademark from Washington state when NuTSR is in Wisconsin, and NuTSR has the federal registration for the marks. But their state level Common Law claim supersedes the Federally registered Trademarks, because still selling out of print PDF's & POD's...??

..
IMHO - It's all to bury them in legal fees to get them to come to the table and cede the trademarks back. But given the current year they might just get a judge to toss the law out and rule in their favor because racism as well.

Quote from: Effete on September 16, 2022, 04:55:26 PM
...Ultimately this comes down to who has the better claim to the StarFrontier trademark. Whoever can prove that is likely to win the case. The problem here is that it's very likely to be an embroiled suit. WotC let the IP slip for almost two decades, doing almost nothing with it except selling old versions. Meanwhile, if NuTSR was serious about their claim, why didn't they file a C&D on WotC for still selling those old versions? ...

Because Filing legal stuff is very expensive. Unless you have a company that can front the bills no one is just going to throw a C&D at a large corporation with an army of lawyers.

They call it Lawfare for a reason.

WotC will likely come out on top in this issue due to having epically deeper pockets. The legalities of what is going on will likely go undecided. Which is a bit of a shame as the two claims pose a rather interesting legal question...

Quote from: Jaeger on September 16, 2022, 08:09:21 PM

Quote from: Effete on September 16, 2022, 04:55:26 PM
...Ultimately this comes down to who has the better claim to the StarFrontier trademark. Whoever can prove that is likely to win the case. The problem here is that it's very likely to be an embroiled suit. WotC let the IP slip for almost two decades, doing almost nothing with it except selling old versions. Meanwhile, if NuTSR was serious about their claim, why didn't they file a C&D on WotC for still selling those old versions? ...

Because Filing legal stuff is very expensive. Unless you have a company that can front the bills no one is just going to throw a C&D at a large corporation with an army of lawyers.

They call it Lawfare for a reason.

WotC will likely come out on top in this issue due to having epically deeper pockets. The legalities of what is going on will likely go undecided. Which is a bit of a shame as the two claims pose a rather interesting legal question...

I agree! The side with the deeper pockets usually wins. But my point was less about the financial realities and more about how strong of a claim nuTSR would have in the eyes of the law. If they really wanted to lay stake to the IP, they'd have made motions to suppress Wizards' use of it, regardless of the cost. Counterpoint: we do live in the "hey bro, fund me!" era, where they could have found a couple thousand idiots to throw money at them for such a cause.

I still have yet to read the briefing, but if this case is only about defamation and not trademark claims, you may be right it will go nowhere. As I mentioned, it would be hard for WotC to claim damage to a brand based off a leaked document that was never intended to be seen by the public. Interestingly enough, nuTSR is apparently too stupid to have their playtesters sign an NDA. Could have possibly been enough to have the evidence be non-admissable.

Edit - The average cost of having a lawyer draft a C&D letter is about 350 USD. Not exactly breaking the bank. Even if WotC chose to ignore it and even if nuTSR decided not to push litigation, it would still have been a good decision to reinforce their claim. But from everything I've seen from nuTSR, they're a bunch of retarded fuckwits.

They DID try to get this lolsuit crowdfunded. Problem is these people are all talk and no walk. They've been insufferable nitwits from the get-go, talking a big game about how they're gonna bring ye olde TSR back while producing absolutely nothing in the meantime, and banking entirely on the culture war to pull them through, while not truly being a part of it or having any real sway in the communities they've tried to insert themselves into. They even tried to lay some sort of claim to the OSR, IIRC (don't recall the details, though), while producing not a single OSR book.

All they've really done is piss a lot of people off, threaten a bunch of lawsuits left and right, make a lot of lofty claims, while not having a single book to their name, other than Giant Lands, which ended up going independent and disassociating from them before finally being published, cuz this was already too much of a dumpster fire by then for the guy working on it (Mystara's creator; forget his name) to smear their reputation by being near it

NuTSR doesn't have the copyright, so the trademark is worthless. At least Sasquatch actually made an Alternity inspired game when they acquired the trademark.

In any case, WotC can get fucked. They're not supporting their old IPs anymore and have no intention ever to, so in my opinion they should lose ownership. The fans deserve to be able to preserve, revive and maintain these old forgotten IPs

Unfortunately, copyright law is what it is. I personally think we should just make our own IPs instead, free of corpo shenanigans. I'm currently doing that with my own settings.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on September 17, 2022, 11:33:29 AM
In any case, WotC can get fucked. They're not supporting their old IPs anymore and have no intention ever to, so in my opinion they should lose ownership. The fans deserve to be able to preserve, revive and maintain these old forgotten IPs

I agree that fans should have that right. Copyright should be of limited term, like patents. Twenty or thirty years is plenty of time to see exclusive profit from a creation. After that, it should go into the public domain. The Constitution specifies for a "limited time", and a century or more isn't limited in any practical sense especially when it keeps getting extended. Someone should be able to commercially publish and profit from a reboot or extension of Star Frontiers, or any other 1970s / 1980s game.

I'm not sure about the point with WotC, though. I get that they shut down fan PDFs of the originals in 2014 when they began offering the reprints themselves. But Star Frontiersman is still available as pay-what-you-want on DrivethruRPG. So it doesn't seem like they are preventing fan-made extensions of Star Frontiers, just not copies of the original.

Quote from: jhkim on September 17, 2022, 05:04:07 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on September 17, 2022, 11:33:29 AM
In any case, WotC can get fucked. They're not supporting their old IPs anymore and have no intention ever to, so in my opinion they should lose ownership. The fans deserve to be able to preserve, revive and maintain these old forgotten IPs

I agree that fans should have that right. Copyright should be of limited term, like patents. Twenty or thirty years is plenty of time to see exclusive profit from a creation. After that, it should go into the public domain. The Constitution specifies for a "limited time", and a century or more isn't limited in any practical sense especially when it keeps getting extended. Someone should be able to commercially publish and profit from a reboot or extension of Star Frontiers, or any other 1970s / 1980s game.

I'm not sure about the point with WotC, though. I get that they shut down fan PDFs of the originals in 2014 when they began offering the reprints themselves. But Star Frontiersman is still available as pay-what-you-want on DrivethruRPG. So it doesn't seem like they are preventing fan-made extensions of Star Frontiers, just not copies of the original.

Yeah. Unlimited Copyright exists mainly to exists to please Mickey Mouse. Screw that noise. If you didn't make enough money from your creation in 20 years, you missed your boat.