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Should "I'm Just Playing My Character" Incite D&D Violence?

Started by RPGPundit, January 12, 2021, 11:57:51 PM

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Wicked Woodpecker of West

QuoteThe issue is that I can play a game and have fun with it - but someone else might try the exact same game and be put off by what they perceive as the politics of it. For example, I joined this board 15 years ago, and I had fun playing the Blue Rose RPG -- but RPGPundit had tons of complaints around the politics of it while liking the True20. Nowadays, Pundit's more into OSR.

Well yes. I cannot say I like politics of Blue Rose but it does not pretend to be something else that it is.
Generally as far-right winger I curse how population - in my home Poland, but evidently in US as well, tend to see "politics" and "political" almost as curses or vulgar words, not as basic for large part if no most of human activity in history, as Greeks saw it.

Armchair Gamer

Quote from: Wicked Woodpecker of West on January 28, 2021, 09:30:52 AM
QuoteThe issue is that I can play a game and have fun with it - but someone else might try the exact same game and be put off by what they perceive as the politics of it. For example, I joined this board 15 years ago, and I had fun playing the Blue Rose RPG -- but RPGPundit had tons of complaints around the politics of it while liking the True20. Nowadays, Pundit's more into OSR.

Well yes. I cannot say I like politics of Blue Rose but it does not pretend to be something else that it is.
Generally as far-right winger I curse how population - in my home Poland, but evidently in US as well, tend to see "politics" and "political" almost as curses or vulgar words, not as basic for large part if no most of human activity in history, as Greeks saw it.

  One of the reasons this whole argument is so fraught is the very ambiguity of the term 'political', ranging from 'grounded in a general worldview and philosophy' to 'providing lectures and harangues about contemporary figures and issues.'

  Back on the original topic, things like https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/pbp-playing-characters-different-from-oneself.876341/ are pushing me towards the idea that gaming, like discussing politics and religion, needs to return to being done in private among small circles of friends.

Chris24601

Quote from: Wicked Woodpecker of West on January 28, 2021, 09:30:52 AM
Well yes. I cannot say I like politics of Blue Rose but it does not pretend to be something else that it is.

Generally as far-right winger I curse how population - in my home Poland, but evidently in US as well, tend to see "politics" and "political" almost as curses or vulgar words, not as basic for large part if no most of human activity in history, as Greeks saw it.
The thing about politics is that for 80% of the population the politics they embrace are a policy of "leave me alone to make a living and raise my family and I'll do the same." They engage in Greek-style politics by doing just that. It's so basic and agreed upon you don't even think of it as politics any more than you think about breathing.

The problem is the other 20% or so whose politics are "I know better than you how to run your life." This position is antithetical to the 80% and so is noticed as political in the same way that your breathing is disrupted by smoke. This gets the label politics and is treated like a dirty word because it's so contrary.

Now, to bring this back to RPGs. If the leftist (or far right for that matter) elements were just releasing their own games and treated things like the 80% treat life (you play your game, I'll play mine, all is well) then we wouldn't have a problem.

The problem is the group (SJWs currently, the "moral majority" in the 80s) that says "you're playing wrong and need to change or we'll punish you." They proceed to try and co-opt or drive out of business anyone who refuses to bend to their desires.

The reason ordinary people hate "politics" so much is that the positions of the 20% force them to change their lives in order to resist having their lives interfered with. They're already losing something just because the moral busybodies have turned their way.

Heck, just the time I spent explaining this was time I could have spent working on something more productive, but the need to play defense just to keep from being completely swept away means part of my day has to be paying attention to this crap and not to my own interests.

Eirikrautha

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on January 28, 2021, 10:19:43 AM
  Back on the original topic, things like https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/pbp-playing-characters-different-from-oneself.876341/ are pushing me towards the idea that gaming, like discussing politics and religion, needs to return to being done in private among small circles of friends.
JFC, that link!  I don't know who is more pathetic, the sniveling worm who is so afraid of offending someone that they have to get permission to discuss the topic first, or the mod team that needs to discuss and triangulate their answer to avoid poking the howling mob.  A pox on both their houses...
"Testosterone levels vary widely among women, just like other secondary sex characteristics like breast size or body hair. If you eliminate anyone with elevated testosterone, it's like eliminating athletes because their boobs aren't big enough or because they're too hairy." -- jhkim

Eirikrautha

Quote from: Chris24601 on January 28, 2021, 11:12:55 AM
Quote from: Wicked Woodpecker of West on January 28, 2021, 09:30:52 AM
Well yes. I cannot say I like politics of Blue Rose but it does not pretend to be something else that it is.

Generally as far-right winger I curse how population - in my home Poland, but evidently in US as well, tend to see "politics" and "political" almost as curses or vulgar words, not as basic for large part if no most of human activity in history, as Greeks saw it.
The thing about politics is that for 80% of the population the politics they embrace are a policy of "leave me alone to make a living and raise my family and I'll do the same." They engage in Greek-style politics by doing just that. It's so basic and agreed upon you don't even think of it as politics any more than you think about breathing.

The problem is the other 20% or so whose politics are "I know better than you how to run your life." This position is antithetical to the 80% and so is noticed as political in the same way that your breathing is disrupted by smoke. This gets the label politics and is treated like a dirty word because it's so contrary.

Now, to bring this back to RPGs. If the leftist (or far right for that matter) elements were just releasing their own games and treated things like the 80% treat life (you play your game, I'll play mine, all is well) then we wouldn't have a problem.

The problem is the group (SJWs currently, the "moral majority" in the 80s) that says "you're playing wrong and need to change or we'll punish you." They proceed to try and co-opt or drive out of business anyone who refuses to bend to their desires.

The reason ordinary people hate "politics" so much is that the positions of the 20% force them to change their lives in order to resist having their lives interfered with. They're already losing something just because the moral busybodies have turned their way.

Heck, just the time I spent explaining this was time I could have spent working on something more productive, but the need to play defense just to keep from being completely swept away means part of my day has to be paying attention to this crap and not to my own interests.
Dead on accurate.  The problem isn't politics.  It's proscriptive politics...
"Testosterone levels vary widely among women, just like other secondary sex characteristics like breast size or body hair. If you eliminate anyone with elevated testosterone, it's like eliminating athletes because their boobs aren't big enough or because they're too hairy." -- jhkim

jhkim

Quote from: jhkimThe issue is that I can play a game and have fun with it - but someone else might try the exact same game and be put off by what they perceive as the politics of it. For example, I joined this board 15 years ago, and I had fun playing the Blue Rose RPG -- but RPGPundit had tons of complaints around the politics of it while liking the True20. Nowadays, Pundit's more into OSR.
Quote from: Chris24601 on January 28, 2021, 11:12:55 AM
The problem is the other 20% or so whose politics are "I know better than you how to run your life." This position is antithetical to the 80% and so is noticed as political in the same way that your breathing is disrupted by smoke. This gets the label politics and is treated like a dirty word because it's so contrary.

Now, to bring this back to RPGs. If the leftist (or far right for that matter) elements were just releasing their own games and treated things like the 80% treat life (you play your game, I'll play mine, all is well) then we wouldn't have a problem.

The problem is the group (SJWs currently, the "moral majority" in the 80s) that says "you're playing wrong and need to change or we'll punish you." They proceed to try and co-opt or drive out of business anyone who refuses to bend to their desires.

Back 15 years ago when Blue Rose came out, I'd say the RPG scene was much less political. Despite this, Pundit and others had a ton of complaints about the publishing of Blue Rose. And things have escalated from there, which represents to a fair degree how everything has gotten more political and partisan in society from 2005 to 2021.

In current debates, posters say that because the other side has made attacks, it justifies attacking their games. So, for example, someone publishes a "combat wheelchair" for D&D as an option. That doesn't affect any conservative players' games. But then some posters can say that this is a wedge to try to change D&D for everyone, so it's important to discuss and criticize it.

Samsquantch

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on January 28, 2021, 10:19:43 AM
Back on the original topic, things like https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/pbp-playing-characters-different-from-oneself.876341/ are pushing me towards the idea that gaming, like discussing politics and religion, needs to return to being done in private among small circles of friends.

I too am beginning to think this. Say the wrong thing in the wrong venue and you are cancelled and banned. Dissent is verboten. At least the chances of your gamer friends shunning you are small or your friendship wasn't that strong to begin with. My gamer friends are very left but we can actually discuss nearly anything and not have it reduced to shouting and ad hominem attacks.

I've seen people banned from my lgs for creepy behaviour, theft, even temper tantrums, but so far no one has been banned for voting the wrong way, yet.

Samsquantch

Quote from: zircher on January 27, 2021, 04:45:04 PM
Quote from: Wicked Woodpecker of WestProblem is SJWs are insufferably nagging about it
Yeah, if you don't push back then you will be pushed over.  Safe to say, the SJWs made it an issue rather than keeping it to their own table/house rules.

Agreed. Both of you are correct.

Samsquantch

Quote from: Chris24601 on January 28, 2021, 11:12:55 AM
Quote from: Wicked Woodpecker of West on January 28, 2021, 09:30:52 AM
Well yes. I cannot say I like politics of Blue Rose but it does not pretend to be something else that it is.

Generally as far-right winger I curse how population - in my home Poland, but evidently in US as well, tend to see "politics" and "political" almost as curses or vulgar words, not as basic for large part if no most of human activity in history, as Greeks saw it.
The thing about politics is that for 80% of the population the politics they embrace are a policy of "leave me alone to make a living and raise my family and I'll do the same." They engage in Greek-style politics by doing just that. It's so basic and agreed upon you don't even think of it as politics any more than you think about breathing.

The problem is the other 20% or so whose politics are "I know better than you how to run your life." This position is antithetical to the 80% and so is noticed as political in the same way that your breathing is disrupted by smoke. This gets the label politics and is treated like a dirty word because it's so contrary.

Now, to bring this back to RPGs. If the leftist (or far right for that matter) elements were just releasing their own games and treated things like the 80% treat life (you play your game, I'll play mine, all is well) then we wouldn't have a problem.

The problem is the group (SJWs currently, the "moral majority" in the 80s) that says "you're playing wrong and need to change or we'll punish you." They proceed to try and co-opt or drive out of business anyone who refuses to bend to their desires.

The reason ordinary people hate "politics" so much is that the positions of the 20% force them to change their lives in order to resist having their lives interfered with. They're already losing something just because the moral busybodies have turned their way.

Heck, just the time I spent explaining this was time I could have spent working on something more productive, but the need to play defense just to keep from being completely swept away means part of my day has to be paying attention to this crap and not to my own interests.

Well said, I wholeheartedly concur.

Wicked Woodpecker of West

QuoteOne of the reasons this whole argument is so fraught is the very ambiguity of the term 'political', ranging from 'grounded in a general worldview and philosophy' to 'providing lectures and harangues about contemporary figures and issues.'

Well indeed, that's why scope of politics is so big and inescapable.

QuoteBack on the original topic, things like https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/pbp-playing-characters-different-from-oneself.876341/ are pushing me towards the idea that gaming, like discussing politics and religion, needs to return to being done in private among small circles of friends.

Well it's problematic. While gaming itself is probably mostly done this way - I mean I doubt conventions and playing with strangers are large part of actual GAMES - the game publishing is inevitably PUBLIC cultural activity and as such political, as culture shapes society and vice versa.
Returning to discussing culture, politics and religion in small circles is to leave fate of countries, nations, societies, to those unafraid to fight for bigger picture.

QuoteThe thing about politics is that for 80% of the population the politics they embrace are a policy of "leave me alone to make a living and raise my family and I'll do the same." They engage in Greek-style politics by doing just that. It's so basic and agreed upon you don't even think of it as politics any more than you think about breathing.

As usual with stances that are common and widely practiced. But as I said - that's my beef with this stance, because even if people say "oh it's just normal life it's not political" it irks me, as there is nothing more political than normal life. One could argue politics is mostly about - what shall be normal life.


QuoteNow, to bring this back to RPGs. If the leftist (or far right for that matter) elements were just releasing their own games and treated things like the 80% treat life (you play your game, I'll play mine, all is well) then we wouldn't have a problem.

The problem is the group (SJWs currently, the "moral majority" in the 80s) that says "you're playing wrong and need to change or we'll punish you." They proceed to try and co-opt or drive out of business anyone who refuses to bend to their desires.

Well precisely. This is one of eternal axii of political conflict between centralisation, statism and authoritarianism vs. individualism and libertarianism. In USA especially strong I guess due to their beginnings.