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Author Topic: Quick LOTR questions  (Read 1047 times)

KingCheops

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Re: Quick LOTR questions
« Reply #15 on: January 27, 2021, 02:18:04 PM »
Both the Elves and the Dwarfs were created prior to Morgoth's shenanigans with the Trees.  So they lived in a world with no light but the stars for an untold amount of time.  The Noldor are so fancy because they made it to Valinor and lived in the light of the Trees.  The rest of the Moriquendi stayed behind.

This is a nitpicky tangent, but I wouldn't characterize it as Noldor vs. "the rest of the elves." The elves that completed the journey to Aman included Vanyar, Noldor, and some (but not all) Teleri. Any of those would be considered Caliquendi rather than Moriquendi. The Moriquendi would definitely include the Avari, and also those Teleri groups that didn't continue on to Aman (e.g., Nandor, et cetera).

Lol yes fair enough.  I was using overly broad brush strokes to avoid some of these questions and ended up in them anyway.  My point was more that sun and moon didn't exist when these peoples were first born so they must have some sort of superior ability to see in darkness.

Elvish history in particular is very tricky.

Philotomy Jurament

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Re: Quick LOTR questions
« Reply #16 on: January 27, 2021, 02:33:49 PM »
Lol yes fair enough.

Told you it was nitpicky.  ;D
That rug really tied the room together, man.

Longshadow

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Re: Quick LOTR questions
« Reply #17 on: January 27, 2021, 07:34:23 PM »
I don't recall dwarfs getting any kind of special vision, and I believe Tolkien described Durin's home as being lit by crystal lamps.

Ghostmaker

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Re: Quick LOTR questions
« Reply #18 on: January 28, 2021, 09:30:31 AM »
I don't recall dwarfs getting any kind of special vision, and I believe Tolkien described Durin's home as being lit by crystal lamps.
The dwarfs were comfortable in low-light underground conditions, but had no special abilities to see in the dark.

Quote
The light of sun, and star, and moon,
In shining lamps of crystal hewn.
Undimmed by cloud or shade of night,
There shone forever fair and bright.

This is from the Song of Durin, sung by Gimli as the Fellowship moved through Moria.

There's also a very funny exasperated rant from Gimli to Legolas about the Glittering Caves, about how the Rohirrim used them for storing supplies when to dwarfs they were gorgeous expanses that deserved to be tended and lit with lamps like those that shone in Moria.

Omega

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Re: Quick LOTR questions
« Reply #19 on: January 28, 2021, 10:47:02 AM »
Is there any reference in Tolkien's works as to:

1. Elves having pointy ears?
2. Elves having darkvision?
3. Dwarves having darkvision?
4. Any race having infravision?

I think the answer to of those questions is No, but it's been some time since I read the books.

Lets see.
1: Kinda. Theres mention of hobbits having slightly pointed elvish ears. Which can be read various ways. Elves having pointed ears is a relatively recent feature from I believe the 1800s? So you will find depictions of them with non-pointed ears. So its 50-50 what they might have been inspired by in the books. If anything.

2: They had supernatural vision and I believe some, or all, had very keen vision. Also I believe they could see normally at night. Another one that can be read various ways.

3: Not that I recall. Theres a bit in one of the books where a dwarf wants to install lights to show off a cave. It is never mentioned how bright these lights are, or are not soooo, yep, also can be read different ways.

4: nope. 99.99% sure thats something from D&D.

X: Note that OD&D PC Dwarves Elves and Halflings can neither see in the dark nor see infrared. AD&D seems to be where they acquired infravision. In B only Dwarves have infravision. In BX Dwarves and Elves have it. Halflings do not. Same for BECMI. In AD&D Halflings had infravision dependant on their lineage. Same for 2e.

And some I'll add to that

5: Magic resistant Dwarves: Far as I recall no. None of the dwarves were resistant and if anything seemed rather susceptible to magic?
6: No-magic Dwarves: Seemed to be using magic weapons ok in the books? Pretty sure thats a D&D thing.
7: Magic resistant Hobbits: From the books seems not. Individuals might muster the willpower to resist but overall they succomb to magic like anyone else.
 

Ghostmaker

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Re: Quick LOTR questions
« Reply #20 on: January 28, 2021, 11:22:32 AM »

5: Magic resistant Dwarves: Far as I recall no. None of the dwarves were resistant and if anything seemed rather susceptible to magic?
6: No-magic Dwarves: Seemed to be using magic weapons ok in the books? Pretty sure thats a D&D thing.
7: Magic resistant Hobbits: From the books seems not. Individuals might muster the willpower to resist but overall they succomb to magic like anyone else.
The magic resistance might've grown out of how Tolkien described the failure of the the rings of power to bring the dwarfs under Sauron's control.  Paraphrasing from his Appendices, they could be slain, or broken in will, but they did not fade and could not be turned to wraiths. They were made by Aule, and he made them tough -- and so Sauron hated them even more (The irony that Sauron himself was a former servant of Aule did not escape me).

I've also speculated that was why Sauron eventually moved to collect the dwarf rings. Their powers were undefined (except for the comment 'the ring needs gold to breed gold' made by Thror to Thrain), but clearly all they did was make dwarfs crankier and greedier and it was hard to tell the difference. Yes, they helped sow chaos in the ranks of the free peoples; but it was not a great return on investment, and Sauron probably didn't want any of the seven falling into the hands of Elrond or Gandalf for study.

Omega

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Re: Quick LOTR questions
« Reply #21 on: January 28, 2021, 12:01:53 PM »
So as noted they were susceptible to magic. But you are right and they were apparently practically immune to being turned into the equivalent of undead.
Seems like their main weakness was mind effecting magic. The rings, elven glamour as it were, other thingies, etc. In AD&D they can not use magic at all and can even depower magic items they put on.