Somehow it's always about the Goths and the punks.  

I'm puzzled by the notion having story/narrative elements and qualities too your game eliminates immersion and role playing as if they can only happen in so called 'sandbox' games. It seems so absolute.

I think what most of us are saying is it kills immersion FOR US.  If it doesn't for you then enjoy your story game.  Just don't call me an ass and tell me my game stinks because I can't get past those narrative/story elements.

From my experience I'd have to disagree with Sammy's claim that it is the storygamers who are the more pretentious and aggressive.

Pretty sure Badwrongfun is a phrase that comes more from D&D purists shitting on all and sundry over minor rules variations between editions that it does from 'storygamers.'

I can tell you that from my interactions with both 'camps' on G+ the One True Wayism and general rampant assholism is far more prevalent in the OSR than in my interactions with 'storygamers.' Politics can certainly turn things ugly quickly but that is as true in the OSR.

There are those who sneer at D&D and trad gamers but few with the vitriol that is common in OSR groups against their fellow D&D players and less commonly 'storygamers.'

Anna Krieder, Ettin, Robert Bohl and David Hill are all pretty unbearable but don't generally pull their petty bullshit on G+ as much. But Oakes Spaulding, that Greyhawk blowhard and their fellow cretins are just as bad, just coming from the other end of the spectrum. But they all tend to use their blogs, TBP and other social media for that shit.

In truth a more accurate name, no not Swine (harhar) for the kind of games under discussion is needed. A few of the games are truly Storygames but many are just rules light games with more prominent player input mechanics, or collaborative world building games, etc. Indy games doesn't capture it as well since there are still lots of independent designers working with trad games like D&D, CoC, etc.

More and more there are those from all camps (OSR, 5e, storygames, rules light) interacting. The TPK blog's year end 'awards' is a good example.

Cognitive dissonance is upsetting to a lot of people, and I can understand why people would be especially bent-out-of-shape regarding "Storytelling Games" because for me the activity of group storytelling stretches the definition of "game" to absurd deformity. The conversation revolves around ways of "gaming", but I'm not sure we even agree on what a "game" is in the first place. That sort of gap in basic underlying assumptions tends to frustrate the participants of a dialog.

On the other side, I have not yet figured out why anyone spews hate upon wargames as such yet, other than perhaps as an extension of the "everyone wins" mentality, which I also don't understand at all in the context of what I consider a "game".

sorry, I don't spend much time at all on G+

I haven't experienced much one true wayism at all from the OSR crowd really.  I hear about it a lot from folks like you (Voros).  I haven't really seen much of it or encountered it in any very stringent way on any of the major forums..even K&KA.  Ftmp, they are a lot of pretty decent types who have a "do what you want" attitude in my experience.  But even from the story game people I haven't really seen it.  It's more a presumption amongst them that I should simply be able to get on with their games and love them because "the narrative elements don't interfere with immersion."  Ummm...yes they do.  LOL, you don't get to decide for me what breaks my sense of immersion.

Really no One Way Truism on K&KA?

A quick search over there and I found this recent thread where all 5e and O/D, B/X and BECMI playersare thrown under the bus, leaving 'pretty much just us.' If that isn't textbook One Way Truism what is?

I'm willing to bet that the Badwrongfun story game thing is mostly an internet only phenomenon. I'm pretty sure if I used the term story game with my players, I'd get some baffled looks. It's creating drama for the sake of creating drama in a day and age where every little thing has to be twisted into an Us versus Them mentality because for some reason some people need to tell other people how to have fun in order to validate their existence.

Quote from: Zalman;980589Cognitive dissonance is upsetting to a lot of people, and I can understand why people would be especially bent-out-of-shape regarding "Storytelling Games" because for me the activity of group storytelling stretches the definition of "game" to absurd deformity. The conversation revolves around ways of "gaming", but I'm not sure we even agree on what a "game" is in the first place. That sort of gap in basic underlying assumptions tends to frustrate the participants of a dialog.

Again everyone here is speaking in vagaries. What games do you mean? Fiasco or Urban Shadows? Monsterhearts or Kingdom?

Many of the games called storygames these days (pretty much all PbtA hacks) are not about collective storytelling anymore than any other RPG.

Quote from: Voros;980595Again everyone here is speaking in vagaries. What games do you mean? Fiasco or Urban Shadows? Monsterhearts or Kingdom?

Many of the games called storygames these days (pretty much all PbtA hacks) are not about collective storytelling anymore than any other RPG.

That's why my response was "if you mean..." (post #2). I just got back to this thread and I still see no definition of what the OP means. Probably a large part of the problem is answering such a vague question.

I also think to claim that storygames are somehow stretching the term game to absurd deformity less than convincing. When kids get together and play house or cops and robbers or pretend to be superheroes it would be distorting the term to somehow claim they aren't playing a game. We all understand that those are games. Hence the eternal cry of childhood 'Let's Play a Game!' It would be absurd to try and exclude that most fundamental form of play from the definition of game.

Quote from: Voros;980593Really no One Way Truism on K&KA?

A quick search over there and I found this recent thread where all 5e and O/D, B/X and BECMI playersare thrown under the bus, leaving 'pretty much just us.' If that isn't textbook One Way Truism what is?

I see a thread with about 6 people talking a lot about Gygax and Arneson in a largely historical sense.  There looks to be one guy who is pretty adamantly anti OSR.  Big whoop.  Sounds a lot like the Stan Lee vs Kirby stuff that goes on at comic forums.  It's mostly easy to ignore.

There seems to be a general cultural thing where it's not enough to be good at something ... that you must 'murder'/'destroy'/'kill' your competition in some ritualized act of humiliation.
Similarly, if you like a thing, then any other thing claiming to occupy its niche must be lesser and in fact 'suck'.
I saw it yesterday at a party for a twelve year old who received a PS4 for his birthday. As his parents were setting it up for him he was on his phone, seeking out videos and comments that asserted his new device was the best... how machines from other manufacturers were not as good. He played these videos loudly and quoted factoids about how he now had the best machine and his friends were 'dumb' for thinking they had good gaming.

Not that his being 12 matters, because I've seen the same behavior in myself and others of many more years.

Quote from: Zevious Zoquis;980600...There looks to be one guy who is pretty adamantly anti OSR.  Big whoop.  Sounds a lot like the Stan Lee vs Kirby stuff that goes on at comic forums.  It's mostly easy to ignore.

Yeah but you claimed you never saw it...

Regardless, I think we mostly agree on the essentials. I can see why some find unfamilar mechanics and player input or real storygames immersion-breaking.

I do find some of the immersion talk a bit puzzling though. As Gary Alan Fine notes RPG players flip between at least three 'frames' during play all the time with no break in immersion: game world, mechanics and RL (not his terms btw).

So the classic example is a player saying something like: 'I pull out my sword and charge him, I roll to attack, pass the chips.'

Quote from: Voros;980595Again everyone here is speaking in vagaries. What games do you mean? Fiasco or Urban Shadows? Monsterhearts or Kingdom?

Many of the games called storygames these days (pretty much all PbtA hacks) are not about collective storytelling anymore than any other RPG.

My personal definition is an RPG with metagame mechanics which allow players to affect change in the story without character agency. So a thief like character which searches for a secret door even with a mechanic like Inspiration which gives a bonus is not a storygame, but a player using some sort of point to make a secret door where one may or may not have existed would be a storygame.