IMHO, the rules just aren't that great for heroic fantasy. BRP works well for CoC, because you're not expected to fight much

For all the hate D&D gets, look at how many computer games and such actually use its basic mechanics (outside the magic system).

Beyond that, fantasy wasn't really mainstream before D&D, other than Tolkien, Narnia and Prydain Chronicles. D&D borrowed a lot from Tolkien, maybe not all first hand by EGG (though more than he admits), but filtered in through unofficial add-ons that became official (like the Ranger).

You can play an elf and dwarf and hobbit in D&D and battle orcs and goblins. Can you do that in Runequest?

Quote from: AnthonyRoberson;592256It was arguably much better produced than D&D at the time and had a more complicated but richer system.

I think you answered your own question, but didn't realize it. D&D's heyday was back when the rules were fairly simple and easy to learn. As it got more complicated, sales dropped.

Quote from: CRKrueger;592288First, simple, come on.  Yeah those are factors, but hardly insurmountable ones.
The 800lb walktapus in the room is, Glorantha is simply "too weird to be big".  

What he said. I picked it up when it came out and, the setting, weird cult magic, tracking armor damage, etc - it wasn't just an alternative to D&D.

However I do agree that D&D had a great head start in distribution and retail, and maybe TSR was just that much better at handling merchandising. For all the advantages we have now with internet and download sales, very different times for selling stuff.

Quote from: CRKrueger;592288Which is the more popular group of fantasy authors?
A. Tolkien, Leiber, Vance, Howard
B. Campbell, Jung

Um, only one of those is a group of fantasy authors. Was that the point? Did I miss something?

I see the main issue being the magic system.  You could be a shaman or a priest and that was it in RQ2.  RQ3 added the broken and oddly implemented sorcerers.  I don't know why they didn't just use the much superior magic system from Worlds of Wonder in RQ3.

But there's other issues, ducks and Glorantha in particular.  The solo adventure with the very silly looking duck on the cover pretty much told customers what to expect and many never looked past it.

Glorantha is neat but it was intimately tied to RQ2 you really couldn't do much else with it.  And that's not a selling point.  I really think a proper generic RQ would have done much better had it come about in 81 or so.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;592530No reboot edition of an RPG has ever succeeded unless there is clear, deep, and widespread dissatisfaction in the existing customer base.

How about third edition D&D?  I recall it being highly resisted by the 2E players that I knew at the time.  However, Third edition D&D eventually succeeded on its own merits and I would consider Pathfinder to be a direct descendant.  Heck, reworkings of d20 might outnumber the retro-clones in popularity.  

I think 4th edition is a less obvious example but it also has a pretty strong following and a lot of fans.

Quote from: Votan;592689

QuoteNo reboot edition of an RPG has ever succeeded unless there is clear, deep, and widespread dissatisfaction in the existing customer base.

How about third edition D&D?

The dissatisfaction people had with AD&D was, frankly speaking, huge. Virtually every change 3E made to the game -- particularly at low and mid-levels -- was a reflection of common house rules. (Many of them were so common that you can still commonly find people online today who don't even realize that they were changed.)

The exception was swapping the math around to get it all pointed in the same direction. But THAC0 was widely ridiculed, so that, too, was addressing clear, deep, and widespread dissatisfaction.

QuoteI think 4th edition is a less obvious example but it also has a pretty strong following and a lot of fans.

Did you seriously just try to claim with a straight face that 4E was a success? Even WotC isn't trying to claim that any more.

Quote from: CRKrueger;592288Which is the more popular group of fantasy authors?
A. Tolkien, Leiber, Vance, Howard
B. Campbell, Jung

I think this is a false dichotomy. RQ has pulp fantasy elements, and also trippy Jung-Campbell-Castañeda-peyote-trip stuff. One does not replace or exclude the other.

It does add a layer of setting complexity to an already mechanically complex (as in, "more complex than D&D") game. But judging from the later success of the oWoD, which boasted a very similar cosmology, I don't think that explains it.

Speaking of which... Mark Rein*Hagen and Jonathan Tweet went on record as two huge Runequest fans. One or the other mentioned RQ's cult system as the basis for Ars Magica's Hermetic Houses, which were, of course, the blueprints for the White Wolf "splat" systems (vampire clans, werewolf tribes, etc.). And of course, Jonathan Tweet, along with Rolemaster fanboy Monte Cook, would go down in History as the men who tacked unified task resolution and a skill system onto D&D. But I digress.

Quote from: CRKrueger;592444Campbell in Star Wars, like Kurosawa in Star Wars and other influences, is hidden behind a Pulp front-end that Glorantha doesn't have.

Runequest... not pulpy? Burly moustachioed barbarians fights the legions of a sorcerous empire and both join against eldricht rapist goatmen... sounds like a Conan yarn to me.

Quote from: Benoist;592340Complexity, or more and more options, more and more detail, more and more "realism" is a totally overrated idea that excludes just as many players, if not more prospective players, than it actually includes new ones.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;592530The lore of Glorantha became increasingly complicated and intricate, creating a barrier for new players.

I think the two of you nail it. It's always been less of a pick-up-and-play-me game than D&D, and the mounting complexity of Glorantha didn't help. The Traveller comparison is very apt.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;592258"Get there the firstest with the mostest." - J.E.B. Stuart.

Sorry, guy, but that was actually never said, period, and it especially wasn't said by stuart. It was erroneously attributed to Nathan Bedford Forrest, who actually said a more refined version of it but confederacy newspapers felt a more 'homespun' version was better.




Impact of Forrest's doctrines

Forrest was one of the first men to grasp the doctrines of "mobile warfare"[40] that became prevalent in the 20th century. Paramount in his strategy was fast movement, even if it meant pushing his horses at a killing pace, which he did more than once. Noted Civil War scholar Bruce Catton writes:

    "Forrest ... used his horsemen as a modern general would use motorized infantry. He liked horses because he liked fast movement, and his mounted men could get from here to there much faster than any infantry could; but when they reached the field they usually tied their horses to trees and fought on foot, and they were as good as the very best infantry. Not for nothing did Forrest say the essence of strategy was 'to git thar fust with the most men'."[41]

Forrest is often erroneously quoted as saying his strategy was to "git thar fustest with the mostest." Now often recast as "Getting there firstest with the mostest,"[42] this misquote first appeared in print in a New York Tribune article written to provide colorful comments in reaction to European interest in Civil War generals. The aphorism was addressed and corrected by a New York Times story in 1918 to be: "Ma'am, I got there first with the most men."[43] Though a novel and succinct condensation of the military's Principles of mass and maneuver, Bruce Catton writes:

    "Do not, under any circumstances whatever, quote Forrest as saying 'fustest' and 'mostest'. He did not say it that way, and nobody who knows anything about him imagines that he did."[44]

Forrest became well-known for his early use of "maneuver" tactics as applied to a mobile horse cavalry deployment. He sought to constantly harass the enemy in fast-moving raids, and to disrupt supply trains and enemy communications by destroying railroad track and cutting telegraph lines, as he wheeled around the Union Army's flank.

Quote from: TristramEvans;592636Um, only one of those is a group of fantasy authors. Was that the point? Did I miss something?

Sorry, you weren't the only one who missed it, so my fault, but yeah that was actually my point.

Quote from: The Butcher;592718I think this is a false dichotomy. RQ has pulp fantasy elements, and also trippy Jung-Campbell-Castañeda-peyote-trip stuff. One does not replace or exclude the other.

True, and to be 100% fair, early RQ adventures do have a lot of Howard going on.  However astriding the whole fantasy scene in the 70s and 80s like a colossus was Tolkien, who is wholly absent from Glorantha (not that that is bad).

Quote from: The Butcher;592718Speaking of which... Mark Rein*Hagen and Jonathan Tweet went on record as two huge Runequest fans. One or the other mentioned RQ's cult system as the basis for Ars Magica's Hermetic Houses, which were, of course, the blueprints for the White Wolf "splat" systems (vampire clans, werewolf tribes, etc.). And of course, Jonathan Tweet, along with Rolemaster fanboy Monte Cook, would go down in History as the men who tacked unified task resolution and a skill system onto D&D. But I digress.

You know I never mind digression.  However, Rolemaster, Ars Magica, Vampire the Masquerade.  Which one of those is a "mainstream" game like D&D?  It ain't the cosmology, it's the fangs and eyeliner.    Again, it's the easily mass-marketable front end.

Quote from: The Butcher;592718Runequest... not pulpy? Burly moustachioed barbarians fights the legions of a sorcerous empire and both join against eldricht rapist goatmen... sounds like a Conan yarn to me.

Conan has barbarians and sorcerers, WFRP has rapist Chaos Beastmen.  Conan and WFRP take place on an alt.history earth.  Runequest has Orlanthi of the Storm Bull(provided the God-Learners haven't destroyed our Myth Cycles yet)adventuring on a big earth cube floating in an infinite sea.  :hmm:

The whole setting is tripping balls from the first word on the page.  We've been tripping balls with it for so long, we don't realize that most people don't see the neon-striped zebra in the corner.  Not that that's a bad thing, but it ain't a real big mystery why it wasn't the one to beat in Waldenbook sales.

Quote from: CRKrueger;592727Conan has barbarians and sorcerers, Michael Moorcock has rapist Chaos Beastmen.

Fixed that for ya.

Quote from: CRKrueger;592727The whole setting is tripping balls from the first word on the page.  We've been tripping balls with it for so long, we don't realize that most people don't see the neon-striped zebra in the corner.  Not that that's a bad thing, but it ain't a real big mystery why it wasn't the one to beat in Waldenbook sales.

I'm actually fairly new to Glorantha, and I have no illusions about the marketability (or lack thereof) of the setting. Still, I'm not 100% sure it's just the setting in itself, and more the minutia-loving fandom that grew around it; I think Traveller and the Third Imperium, again, is an apt comparison.

Quote from: The Butcher;592729I'm actually fairly new to Glorantha, and I have no illusions about the marketability (or lack thereof) of the setting. Still, I'm not 100% sure it's just the setting in itself, and more the minutia-loving fandom that grew around it; I think Traveller and the Third Imperium, again, is an apt comparison.

Oh the barrier to entry stuff is definitely an ongoing problem.  On the Mongoose Boards when asked about how to get into Glorantha, here is a response from Simon Bray (bold will be mine).

Quote from: Simon Bray on Mongoose BoardsI have been playing in Glorantha for 28 Years, I have been illustrating Glorantha for 20 Years, I have been writing about Glorantha for 18 years, I have worked for Chaosium, Issaries, Moon Design, Mongoose, The Unspoken Word, Tradetalk and Tales of the Reaching Moon. I have written four 50 player Gloranthan Freeforms. And after all that I still don't beleive that I could claim to know 1/100th of the stuff there is to know about Glorantha. However I never fail to have fun with the setting, I love it deeply and its exploration is my passion. So just try to understand the bits that you need to, to a level that you can have fun with.

I would recommend that anyone playing in Glorantha read either Heroquest Voices or the 2nd Age Equivelant material in the Mongoose Books. That you only concern yourself with a few cults at a time. Keep non-humans as the weird and mystical, keep foreign powers the same where you can. Remember that if you take a small area that you can develope your own campaign around and then develop it your own way, rather than trying to tackle a huge amount of detail. If you want to create your own material, but use the Gloranthan material their are lots of little places where this can be done.

Some suggested places to start...

A small Orlanthi clan - It doesn't matter really if this is in Ralios or Kethaela, just create a small village or similar at its heart, some local woods inhabitted perhaps by local spirits, perhaps some elves or even a dragonewt. Then you need a few local hills, perhaps with the odd caves that are taboo, perhaps because they hold monsters or are of a religious nature. This is Glorantha so there should be at least one weird location from a forgotten era, a collossal face in the wilderness, a strange henge or monument or an bizarre ruin.
The inhabitants of this area need to be pencilled out, work out who the chieftain is, his wife, his champion, the local healer, a shaman or priest and perhaps two more local characters (a bully, love intrest or mysterious stranger).
Cults, keep it simple, Have most men worship Orlanth, most women worship Ernalda, then have the Champion worship Humakt, there will be most likely one follower of Lhankor Mhy, Chalana Arroy, Odayla or even Vinga. If you are doing a Draconised clan then you need to use Orlanth the Dragon and Ernalda the Scale.
You now need at least one source of conflict, a nearby clan, a troll tribe, nearby foreigners (Coastal Pirates, Praxian Nomads, or a small group of God Learners, is a good source). You will need to know a few protagonist from that enemy, their leader etc. You only need to know a little about this enemy to start with.
If you are playing a Dara Happan game, then instead of a Village you could look at setting the game in a small section of a city, familiarise yourself with the head of the household or Association, your family priest, the local merchants and perhaps a couple of NPC's in the association guard. Keep the cults simple, choose one or two. The opposition in the game comes not from monster but from opposing Associations. If you want to play a bigger plot then bring in the Golden Dragon Emperor and the EWF cronies. Alternatively why not create your own small town, there are plenty of sources on the net, from maps to building plans (Look a Babylonian, Assyrian sites for inspiration). You can then make the oppositions barbarian raiders, river pirates, foreigner polluting your purity).

If you are playing a game with a nomadic culture, it is not the location that is important, but the journey that is being undertaken. Think about a route and detail a number of encounters along it. You need to know who the chieftain or khan is, who the healers, warriors and potential wives are. Most nomad cultures are shamanic, so encounters do not just have to be of the physical kind, clan members could be possessed by hostile ancestors or spirit animals could be encountered. Again focus on a couple of primary great spirits. Enemies should be traditional ones for Praxians it could be Chaos, Pentans or other Praxian tribes. For Pentans it will be Praxians, Trolls and Foreigners from the east or west. For Agimori it could be God Learners, Fonritan Slavers or monsters. You also have to remember that the weather and elements will play a big part in these stories.

For the God Learners and Empire of the Wyrms Friends it is probably easiest to think about a cell or small group. The God Learners will be seeking to explore the world, perhaps upon a ship. Their scenarios could be a lot more about exploring the world, in some respects you only need to understand the God Learner perspective to do this, they will see each culture in this manner, as resources to be taken, entities to be categorised or people to be conquered, whilst protecting their own interests. The EWF will be similar, they are seeking draconic connections in the world, to spread the word. Both groups are essentially being sent on Missions in this case, for the better good of the Empire. Thier enemies are each other, and those that oppose their progression, but most of all it is their internal conflicts that will bave the greatest impact on most games. Create several 'Bosses' above the players and some contacts.

Good advice, but you know from the get-go, this is not a "jump in and swim" kind of place if as a referee you want to know what's actually going on in this setting you're gonna run.

Back in the day what inhibited me from Runequest was the tight binding of the magic system with setting, and I guess also the need to roll up an elaborate set of stats and abilities for each monster. Some friends of mine ran Runequest with a simple hack of D&D magic where each spell level = 1 POW and you had to roll magic skill, adjusted by spell level, to cast. As for the custom monsters, in that regard as in so many others, D&D 3rd edition cried uncle - Runequest won!

Quote from: JeremyR;592601IMHO, the rules just aren't that great for heroic fantasy. BRP works well for CoC, because you're not expected to fight much

You can play an elf and dwarf and hobbit in D&D and battle orcs and goblins. Can you do that in Runequest?

In Glorantha? No (but you can battle Broo, Trollkin, Trolls etc instead). In RuneQuest as a system - certainly. Orc stats have been in the rulebooks since RQ3 back in the 80's.

The reason I migrated to and loved RQ was because of the combat system not despite it. It feels more heroic to me because the stakes are higher and the ouitcome less predictable. Just felt more visceral. The latest iterations are even more so. They got rid of the major flaw which was the "I hit, you parry, so nothing happens" grind that slowed down combat. Combat in MRQ2/Legend and RQ6 plays very fast as there are very few 'nothing happens' outcomes.