Quote from: AnthonyRoberson;592256Reading Playing Against the World and the Arduin thread got me to thinking. Runequest came out in 1978. It was arguably much better produced than D&D at the time and had a more complicated but richer system. Why didn't it do better? I remember for a long time that it was labelled the second most popular fantasy RPG but then it faded. Why?

Was it mishandled by Chaosium? Did the deadly, limb lopping combat system not appeal to the masses? Insights or thoughts?

Complexity, or more and more options, more and more detail, more and more "realism" is a totally overrated idea that excludes just as many players, if not more prospective players, than it actually includes new ones.

RuneQuest was actually a pretty successful game. It's also a game I really like. But I think that part of the problem is what motivated RuneQuest's design in the first place. The idea that there had to be more detail, more deadliness, more "realism" again, and so on, so forth.

Also, Glorantha is not exactly what I imagine as a welcoming setting for a role playing game, not because it's bad (it isn't) or overwhelming (in its simplest forms it really isn't more than any other specific setting), but because it IS specific and sets out to create an original tapestry, as opposed to the hodge-podge combinations that gave birth to D&D as a game which you then used to craft your own setting to your own specifications.

There are a lot of good things to say about both RuneQuest and Glorantha, and I think it'd be wrong to pretend the game wasn't commercially successful - it was. But at the same time, I don't think the game by its very design ever had it in itself to take over the whole RPG market and eclipse D&D. As an alternative it succeeded, and in spades, and I think that's the best it could ever hope to accomplish.

Quote from: Melan;592313I am not so sure. A lot of D&D represents a huge departure from mainstream fantasy - beholders, spell memorisation, gelatinous cubes and all that. They are familiar now, but I know a lot of people who had trouble with the game because it didn't do fantasy 'right'. In many respects Glorantha may be closer to that mainstream.

Mainstream, with Heroquests, a floating earthcube planet, a magic and cultural system based on professional academic knowledge of the study of myth?  That might be mainstream based on the backgrounds of a lot of gamers (and a large portion of the ones on this site particularly), but really mainstream?  I dunno.

Yeah, D&D has some gonzo stuff, but the gonzo still was flavored by the whole Heavy Metal/Prog Rock/70's thing that had the energy of "We're making this new thing!"

Runequest, on the other hand, had, for the mainstream, a "Let's learn this detailed mythic culture." thing going on.

D&D had Wizards, Glorantha had God-Learners.

I love the system, I do like the setting and wish in Dragon magazine back in the day, they hadn't decided to advertise Runequest leading with the Ducks graphically. :banghead:

Quote from: jibbajibba;592304Its about greed.

In D&D the class & level system meant players got better and could measure their better-ness the people that played longer and more got much better and could bully the newbies. In RQ you can do that to a degree but a lucky arrow or a well planned ambush will kill you because its more relaistic.

Also in D&D you got more stuff, magical stuff.

its the same thing you see in MMOs. I recall when Everquest stopped you looting the bodies of fallen PCs because althought it was far more realistic it cost them players and it cost them the players that had invested most time and therefore were likley to go on investing time and money.
the nerdy kids that play most get a direct benefit in a levelling system where collecting stuff is key. RQ doesn;t give you that direct correlation.

Although CRQ2 did have quite a bit of dungeon crawling in the old Pavis setting.  Spells and training cost money, as well as spell and power matrices, armor, and good weapons.  Plus, you needed to sock money away for your ransom (RQs answer to the D&D resurrection fund).  RQ2 is closer to the old school dungeoneering experience than a lot of people remember, it just didnt have the baggage of Alignment or D&D's goofy class system.  It's always been superior to D&D in that respect because characters developed organically based on setting factors, not on things like XP.

Quote from: CRKrueger;592341Mainstream, with Heroquests, a floating earthcube planet, a magic and cultural system based on professional academic knowledge of the study of myth?  That might be mainstream based on the backgrounds of a lot of gamers (and a large portion of the ones on this site particularly), but really mainstream?  I dunno.

Yeah, D&D has some gonzo stuff, but the gonzo still was flavored by the whole Heavy Metal/Prog Rock/70's thing that had the energy of "We're making this new thing!"

Runequest, on the other hand, had, for the mainstream, a "Let's learn this detailed mythic culture." thing going on.

D&D had Wizards, Glorantha had God-Learners.

I love the system, I do like the setting and wish in Dragon magazine back in the day, they hadn't decided to advertise Runequest leading with the Ducks graphically. :banghead:

I think that D&D simply had the developed brand, which RQ departed from.  While all the stuff with Ducks and mythology was there, it was a background thing.  RQ2 took place in Pavis and the PCs were basically treasure hunters in a gigantic ruined city.

The Runequest system is great but was too strongly associated with Glorantha and however brilliant that setting is, it is Stafford's setting and it would appear those who played D&D back in the 80s liked to create their own campaigns, although you wouldn't think it considering how dependent the current lot are on the osr becoming a marketplace.

The magic system is weak and unimaginative compared with D&D's and again integrated into the setting through the cults. The fact that all characters will not just learn spells but largely the same spells was a mistake.

Im glad I learned about D&D first because I know I would have become steeped in Stafford's world and been far less creative as a DM in the long run.

Quote from: CRKrueger;592341Mainstream, with Heroquests, a floating earthcube planet, a magic and cultural system based on professional academic knowledge of the study of myth?  That might be mainstream based on the backgrounds of a lot of gamers (and a large portion of the ones on this site particularly), but really mainstream?  I dunno.

Heh, you just described "Star Wars," except for the cube. On the other hand, you've also described "Willow," so clearly some Deep Campbellian Fantasy has what it takes to go huge in the mainstream and some does not.

At this point it looks unlikely that Glorantha will ever transcend its niche (long story, everyone has theories), but at least it's actively supported by the faithful.

BRP, on the other hand, survives in COC and whoever played the Mongoose games in addition to the current crop of revisions. Whether that collective base is now bigger or smaller than Glorantha is an interesting question.

Either way, neither is exactly Star Wars in terms of mainstream impact.

Quote from: econobus;592441Either way, neither is exactly Star Wars in terms of mainstream impact.

Campbell in Star Wars, like Kurosawa in Star Wars and other influences, is hidden behind a Pulp front-end that Glorantha doesn't have.

I think people might not realise just how little of Glorantha there was in RQ1/2 back in the late 70s early 80s. I know I played it for 18 months with nothing but the box set, creating cave complexes like Rainbow mounds for people to adventure in, puzzle out mysteries and fight monsters.

If you read RQ2 for what is there rather than assuming what's there when looking backwards it's not what you think. There were two evocative maps, an evil empire, brave rebels  and dungeons to explore. In OD&D you basically got XP for money. In RQ you got skill increases for experience or money. You progressed to become either a priest, shaman or warrior. Look at the description of rune priests in RQ2. They have skill limits, they gain a staff as an enchanted weapon, can have familiars and get access to rune magic.  The ultimate power character was to become a warrior-priest so you could take fighting skills over 100%.

Sure there were weird monsters but there were also normal ones and most of them were no more weird than what was in D&D.

All the mythic stuff came in with Glorantha fandom later on. What is actually there in RQ2 and its first few supplements was a very lightly sketched world with ruins, good guys, bad guys and and some great stories. My memory of the time was that those of us who either didn't have the supplements or simply didn't know about them basically played in the same way as Judge's guild created dungeons or used the scenarios in White Dwarf which were, if I remember, not set in any particular world.

Quote from: CRKrueger;592444Campbell in Star Wars, like Kurosawa in Star Wars and other influences, is hidden behind a Pulp front-end that Glorantha doesn't have.

I think you just put your finger on it.

Pulpy in the front, Campbell in the back = mass market potential.

Campbell in the front, pulp engine in the back, Sandy Petersen in the middle = RuneQuest at its peak.

Campbell in the front, Campbell in the back = Heroquestwars, so insular people forget it exists.

Pulpy in front, storygaming in the back = these games always seem to fail outright.

Quote from: deleriad;592449I think people might not realise just how little of Glorantha there was in RQ1/2 back in the late 70s early 80s. I know I played it for 18 months with nothing but the box set, creating cave complexes like Rainbow mounds for people to adventure in, puzzle out mysteries and fight monsters.

Quoted for truth. Even in Glorantha it was dungeons, dungeons, dungeons. Magic plunder, grubbing to make your next training bill or cult payment. Weird menace, cults of terror. Then over the years everything became Apple Lane. Perrin was gone.

Quote from: deleriad;592449I think people might not realise just how little of Glorantha there was in RQ1/2 back in the late 70s early 80s. I know I played it for 18 months with nothing but the box set, creating cave complexes like Rainbow mounds for people to adventure in, puzzle out mysteries and fight monsters.

If you read RQ2 for what is there rather than assuming what's there when looking backwards it's not what you think. There were two evocative maps, an evil empire, brave rebels  and dungeons to explore.

Cults of Prax was published in 1979, Griffin Mountain in 1981. If you chose to ignore them fine.

RQ was tied to Glorantha, and that tie grew stronger over time.

Then two things happened:

(1) The lore of Glorantha became increasingly complicated and intricate, creating a barrier for new players.

(2) A cash-strapped Chaosium sold RQ to Avalon Hill, but kept the rights to Glorantha. This seemed like a great idea at the time: It kept Chaosium solvent and it put the second most popular fantasy RPG in the hands of a truly massive corporation that could capitalize on that popularity and bring the game to the masses.

But it didn't play out like that: The terms of the deal meant that Avalon Hill was motivated to decouple RQ from Glorantha, which they did. There were also notable mechanical changes. The result was that RQ3 was perceived as a reboot edition. And, as I've said in the past:

No reboot edition of an RPG has ever succeeded unless there is clear, deep, and widespread dissatisfaction in the existing customer base.

From that point forward, you had a divided, dwindling fanbase that was being "supported" by a company that, it turned out, had absolutely no idea how to properly support an RPG product line.

The story of RQ is actually surprisingly similar to the story of Traveler (albeit without the corporate licensing issues causing the problem): An immensely popular generic SF RPG becomes increasingly tied to its "default" setting; that setting grows more complicated and intricate, creating a barrier to new players; a reboot edition is released that the fans weren't clamoring for.

Marketing.

By the mid-80s, the only ads I saw in comic books were Palladium and TSR. I don't remember seeing AH ads anywhere beyond gaming mags.

I think there wasn't much better for a non-D&D sword & sorcery RPG to do -- never mind that it also spawned a whole line of other games (including the perennially popular Call of Cthulhu).

What's your candidate for a runner-up that did do better?

I was thrilled to see it coming to the attention of as many people as it did, since White Bear and Red Moon had seemed such a funky, distinctively West Coast labor of love.

Quote from: estar;592261With the notable exception of Tunnels and Trolls, most of the RPGs that tried to compete directly with D&D tried go head to head by offering more details.

Exception, my ass. Besides an incredibly detailed collection of ironmongery, it presented more time-consuming procedures (and more mathematically complex, in case a GM cares actually to have an idea what probabilities he's pulled out of his hat to make up for non-existent guidelines).

By 1978, though, D&D's supplement-itis had produced most of the elaborations that would make up the Advanced game.