Quote from: Enlightened;838968Also, I understand that the lack of a PDF is a conscious decision.

Intentionally making the game be as hard and as expensive to get as possible goes against the spirit of the OSR, in my mind.

There is no intention to make this game "as hard to get as possible".
There is an intention to make this game as physically pleasing as possible. For this publisher this means cloth-bound hardcover with dustjacket. And that comes with a price.

(Personally, I can't stand cloth-bound books... but I can respect the artistic vision of the author. Plus, the notebook version has a regular, non-cloth, hardcover.)

But I am sad that the First Edition has vanished. (Last week I was able to get a pristine (second) copy from a German mail order shop that still had one. My use copy is a bit battered by now because, as my current go-to one-shot game, I carry it around a lot.)

Quote from: Dirk Remmecke;839318There is an intention to make this game as physically pleasing as possible.

Wanting to make a pleasing looking product is cool.

Engineering it so that ONLY that single form exists is not cool.

PDF is more accessible, and for some customers that is more important than looks. And some customers only use PDFs.

Quote from: Enlightened;839321PDF is more accessible, and for some customers that is more important than looks. And some customers only use PDFs.

Bingo.

In some ways, this reminds me of an aspiring SF/F artist I knew years ago. He was very good. However, he refused to sell his artwork for magazine or book covers nor to make prints of it for people to buy. He thought these things did not capture the nuances of his paintings -- and figured that if people could buy printings for $10 they would be less likely to buy the originals at $500+.

Quote from: RandallS;839334Bingo.

In some ways, this reminds me of an aspiring SF/F artist I knew years ago. He was very good. However, he refused to sell his artwork for magazine or book covers nor to make prints of it for people to buy. He thought these things did not capture the nuances of his paintings -- and figured that if people could buy printings for $10 they would be less likely to buy the originals at $500+.

And how did things turn out for him?

Quote from: RPGPundit;839628And how did things turn out for him?

Not well.  Last I heard he sells a couple of paintings a year. He'd probably do better if he would also paint smaller works that could sell for $100-$200 at shows instead of just large paintings that have to sell for $1000+. However, IMHO, not selling prints is what really hurts him. No one knows of him unless they see his work at a show he's at. Prints would not only make him money, but would get his work out where people would see it which would let more people with the cash to spend on more expensive art see his stuff.

Quote from: RandallS;839654Not well.  Last I heard he sells a couple of paintings a year. He'd probably do better if he would also paint smaller works that could sell for $100-$200 at shows instead of just large paintings that have to sell for $1000+. However, IMHO, not selling prints is what really hurts him. No one knows of him unless they see his work at a show he's at. Prints would not only make him money, but would get his work out where people would see it which would let more people with the cash to spend on more expensive art see his stuff.

Yeah, that's what I figured would happen.

On the topic of non-pdf distribution, I just want to add a quick comment. It has been 6 weeks since I purchased 'Whitehack' from Lulu (the only place it is officially available) and received a 'dispatch' notification- and I am still waiting for it to arrive. My group, mostly comprised of young women, were drawn to the game by its appearance to be a more literary, open world setting and less a 'hack and slash' affair. We have long since however moved on using another, easily available system. If there had been a PDF I would have had it printed at my local bookbinders (who I am sure could print and saddlestitch it using pure vellum if I asked), and we would be 3 weeks deep into the campaign using Whitehack. We waited and waited.

I can only presume the insistence on using Lulu as the only distribution point is because the work is a vanity publication, difficult to obtain if you are not in the Northern US or Western Europe (I am currently based in Central Europe, which is hardly the ends of the earth).

I am extremely disappointed, obviously.

I am sure it's a fine game if you get to play it. You see, for all the efforts to resist the digitization of the hobby, it's extremely shortsighted to insist upon an analog format and then limit that distribution, or worse, sell it through a shop that doesn't deliver.

There are modern indie RPG devs that don't sell a PDF version?

We wouldn't be playing most the systems we do if there wasn't easily available PDF versions and I wouldn't be shilling for those games in threads of I wasn't playing/enjoying them.

I think the problem here is one of the big C word: Control.

Designers want their product to be received a certain way: in this case, there is a massive emphasis on it 'feeling right' visually- which is by no means a bad thing, and honestly I wish more game designers would spend less time fiddling with their often redundant dice mechanics and badly written splat books, and more time thinking about accessibility, readability and atmosphere. That said, control always means the imposition of limits. Normally a game has limits imposed at a conceptual or mechanical level, and the rules help create the atmosphere and momentum at a table (or wherever). Here, unfortunately, the insistence upon format (analog, traditional book form only, made only in one specific way) limits accessibility through distribution (only using Lulu, a dreadful publishing company with a terrible track record in delivery), and in my case, my group isn't going to wait around for those aesthetic needs to be met at the cost of actual gameplay. The control shifted the emphasis from game to 'object'.

I am not in the business of collecting objects. I know a lot of gamers have fetish level obsessions over their bookshelves. That's fine. I have always been more of a homebrew 'notebook over morning coffee' GM, and screw the splat.

I don't even know if I am pissed about the delays in getting the game, as much as just jaded. I feel like I was railroaded/controlled into buying from a single point of distribution and it affected my group's enthusiasm and my own story momentum.

But whatever: big world, small gripes, and my little spitball of vented frustration won't make it a better place.

Whitehack is very handy as a kitchen sink spur of the moment game. You can mix RuneQuest, Zweihander, D&D plus anything else with just those first three classes. Deft Dwarf Smuggler, Strong Elf Barbarian, Wise Human Storm-mage? Not a problem.

In addition the focus on interaction and not necessarily combat makes for interesting gaming sessions in which a weapon might not be drawn, yet a lot of intrigue transpires.

The only thing I changed was the magic system, making it a d6 (2,3 or 4 depending on circumstances/power of magic being used) and using alternate spells, but that is part of the beauty of the system, which I've also run with the Woodland Warriors setting.

Small book that in a way has the power of ten thick tomes built into it.

Quote from: bat;1035567Whitehack is very handy as a kitchen sink spur of the moment game. You can mix RuneQuest, Zweihander, D&D plus anything else with just those first three classes. Deft Dwarf Smuggler, Strong Elf Barbarian, Wise Human Storm-mage? Not a problem.

In addition the focus on interaction and not necessarily combat makes for interesting gaming sessions in which a weapon might not be drawn, yet a lot of intrigue transpires.

The only thing I changed was the magic system, making it a d6 (2,3 or 4 depending on circumstances/power of magic being used) and using alternate spells, but that is part of the beauty of the system, which I've also run with the Woodland Warriors setting.

Small book that in a way has the power of ten thick tomes built into it.

That is all fine and dandy if you CAN ACTUALLY GET HOLD OF A COPY.

My issue is with point of sale, and that I am disappointed because a product I bought in good faith isn't in my hands many weeks after I ordered it.

I am disappointed because I have read many eulogies and testaments to its flexibility and mechanics.

All you have done here is piss me off more by reminding me that the game is maybe really good, but the book I bought (followng the recommendation to use coupons to reduce the price from the author himself) never arrived in a reasonable time frame for my group to play, and apparently I am now supposed to wait for a window for that as well.

I am sorry to make you mad. But your issue is with Lulu, not the game or its creator, correct?

Quote from: bat;1035644I am sorry to make you mad. But your issue is with Lulu, not the game or its creator, correct?

The author is responsible for his choice in how to distribute the work. By distributing it only through lulu and only giving the choice of print. He  foregoing sales to interested customers given the other options available.

Quote from: estar;1035650The author is responsible for his choice in how to distribute the work. By distributing it only through lulu and only giving the choice of print. He  foregoing sales to interested customers given the other options available.

I understand that, the author has the freedom to distribute how they wish too, there is nothing set in stone about offering .pdfs. I am just saying that this is a shipping issue with Lulu, isn't it? I do not blame the author for distributing how they want, however, in this case, offering a .pdf would be a nice gesture.

Quote from: fuseboy;837100This is a really useful way to look at them.

Any other standout examples in category #3, bringing something new to the table?

Sine Nomine games.