Even though it wasn't my thing, I hope whatever shit you have going on gets cleared up and you're able to discuss your game.  

I don't know if you can bring back the softcover, but I hope you'd be able to.  Hardcovers on Lulu are pricey, softcover is a nice cheap option.

Is this available in PDF anywhere? I didn't see it.

Quote from: Enlightened;837643Is this available in PDF anywhere? I didn't see it.

It's a print only product.

Quote from: RF Victor;837691It's a print only product.

That's the only reason I haven't bought a copy. I can't buy printed games unless I'm willing to give up a game I already have (due to a deal with my wife who does not believe in decorating with my 1000+ games). Of course now that I've heard it is more of a narrative game, I'm not sure I'd even get a PDF unless it was on sale at a good price.

Quote from: RandallS;837694That's the only reason I haven't bought a copy. I can't buy printed games unless I'm willing to give up a game I already have (due to a deal with my wife who does not believe in decorating with my 1000+ games). Of course now that I've heard it is more of a narrative game, I'm not sure I'd even get a PDF unless it was on sale at a good price.

I'm on the same boat. I like the idea of the game, it looks interesting and I'd love to read it, but being in Brazil it's a $38 (with slow shipping!) 64 page rulebook I probably won't get to actually play...

Quote from: Whitehack;837638I did, but shit came up minutes after posting, and I won't have time to participate properly in the discussion. In retrospect, I don't think the post was worth reading anyway. Sorry for the inconvenience.

Well, I hope you'll say your part later, since it's always good to hear from the actual designer in this type of thread.

Welcome to theRPGsite!

Quote from: RPGPundit;838033Well, I hope you'll say your part later, since it's always good to hear from the actual designer in this type of thread.

Welcome to theRPGsite!

Thank you! I’ll make a big ass post and hope it lasts a while.

I won’t argue with someone’s feelings, but since there are no references to anything in Whitehack nor to anything written about it, I do have a hard time understanding how Larsdangly came to his conclusions. Almost everything written about Whitehack is on a positive note, and the examples of a category 4 game don’t apply to my game.

I find Brad’s comment in this thread interesting because it is based on an actual reading of first edition Whitehack and attempts to categorize my game. I’m not sure I agree with him, though. Whitehack is explicitly in conflict with core narrativist notions, for example R.E.’s ideas about not mixing creative agendas and about games supporting or not supporting storytelling. Whitehack is based on the *conflict* between storytelling and game world simulation, and the rules are mostly there to make things *harder*. This is explained in the introductions to Chapters II and III in the second edition. There is a ton of other stuff I don’t agree with in GNS theory and R.E.’s articles (I like reading them, though). That said, I can *guess* that Brad is thinking about things like the groups system in Whitehack, which drives world building, or the negotiation of special abilities, which distributes traditional Referee power. Those qualities are in Whitehack. But I wouldn’t say they have much to do with narrativism in the usual sense of the word. Similarly, the example setting and adventures are thematic (in the classic sense that they are powered by some problem or question), but again, I don’t think this quality should be reserved for R.E.’s narrativism.

So what kind of game is Whitehack? When I make a game, I add and chip away and reshape until the thing I have before me seems right. I am curious about what I want, not sure of it. So Whitehack didn’t start with a clean concept, and I doubt it can be reduced to one either. It is easier to answer how the game is being used: I use Whitehack to run all my fantasy RPG modules, not just in the first rules tradition, but in other traditions as well. Others seem to do the same, but they also use Whitehack for things like planetary romance, space opera, 19th century grand tours and to hack their own games. Due to the way character creation, character powers, magic and monsters work, Whitehack is extremely easy to bend towards different settings and genres, without changing anything in the rules text or adding classes or spells. It plays easily in the sense that you don’t have to memorize or look up tons of rules in order to play a high level druid or prepare an adventure, but it is still a challenging game in that you have to make hard choices in play. I also think that there is an emergent quality to Whitehack play, perhaps because setting background and interpretations of miracles and special abilities develop automatically over time. All in all, I simply think of Whitehack as a brief and traditional, quality fantasy game.

Speaking about brevity, and about price, I completely understand that not everyone can afford my game. But when I buy a game, I don’t try to get as many pages as possible per dollar. I try to find a game that has seen some editing. It is true that Whitehack can be very expensive if you buy it at full price and international shipping. But it is equally true that there are regularly Lulu coupons for free international shipping, often combinable with other discount coupons. Many international customers have bought the standard version for $18 and the notebook version for $21, shipping included. For the level of “completeness” that Whitehack offers, *and* the hard editing, I think that is a fair price.

First edition Whitehack was a stapled softcover, and I tried that for second edition as well. But I decided against it. It didn’t feel right. It is hard to explain, but I think that when I get a stapled book, I want it to be thin in relation to its format. So while 64 pages works for a Moldvay copy, it makes Whitehack feel too thick. Also, Lulu has made a very small change in paper for stapled trade sized booklets. First edition Whitehack had numbered versions, and I think up until 1.3/1.4, the cover had a thicker stock. After that, the cover is a bit flimsy. I think the decision to go hard cover was a good one. It gave Second Edition a stronger artifactual identity, and opened up for a notebook version. Quite a few commenters seem to like how Whitehack looks. This said, I may add a soft cover version later on, but not for the time being.

Quote from: Larsdangly;837084It's a matter of judgement where you classify any given game between the last three groups above. I decided Whitehack looked a lot like #4.

Whitehack is definitely #3:

Quote from: Larsdangly;837084- Creative, interesting games that are inspired by the originals, but have differences that really bring something new to the table.

Second Edition even more than First (which is the one most reviews are talking about). But even First Edition is way different than S&W Whitebox/0D&D (the "seed" from which Whitehack grew into its own).

The sheet and the familiar stats make it look deceptively like a stylish Microlite 20 but in actual play it's its own beast. The groups, slots, free-form miracles (spells), double rolls, and auctions make for a radically different play experience.

I have to say, even though I feel like your post actually explained very little to me while using very big words, the language and implications of that language strongly suggest to me that this is not a game I would particularly care for.

Quote from: RPGPundit;838463I have to say, even though I feel like your post actually explained very little to me while using very big words, the language and implications of that language strongly suggest to me that this is not a game I would particularly care for.

Try this explanation I posted in this thread before (here updated to Second Edition):

What's different from OD&D?

It has only three character classes:

• Deft (thieves, wandering monks, spies, marksmen, rangers, assassins,...)
  
• Strong (warriors, brigands, guards, knights, bounty hunters, barbarians,...)
  
• Wise (wizards, priests, alchemists, exorcists, demonologists, druids, runecarvers, bards, mad scientists,...)
  

The GM chapter has two more, "rare" classes:

• Brave (underdogs and unlikely heroes, failed apprentices, gardeners dreaming of dragons and elves, wannabe bards, peasants,...)
  
• Fortunate (royal heirs, rich and influential merchants, star performers, religious icons,...)
  

(I am not sure those are really needed since they could be modeled using the basic classes...)

Attributes are the usual ones, 3d6, with scores of 13/16 giving some bonuses for some classes (e.g., only the Strong receive a melee bonus from high STR).

Every task roll in the game is roll under, whether it's an attribute check, saving throw, or to-hit roll.
To-hit is roll-under Attack Value, but over AC (blackjack style). (That's the system I used in Dragon Warriors as well because I didn't like the subtraction bit in DW. Of course, the system would have broken down by rank 8 when Attack reached 20+, but we never came that far... In Whitehack the numbers are lower to begin with.)

Single saving throw, like in Swords & Wizardry, but roll-under.
(First Edition supported both ascending and descending AC and had the appropriate rolls and tables.)

Weapon damage is d6 plus/minus bonus (no polyhedrals).

Task and Skill rolls are basically Attribute rolls, D&D Gazetteer/AD&D2 style: roll d20 under Attribute. (In AD&D2 you learned specific skills and received a bonus on the check, in Whitehack you belong to Groups.)

Groups are broad "bundles"/definitions of skills, contacts and information and come in three flavors: Species, Vocations, and Affiliations. (Species have to be chosen first if you want to play a non-human, obviously.) Groups are written next to an Attribute (that's the reason why the Attribute listings are that big on the character sheet):

(That's a First Edition sheet - in Second the combat stats are named a bit different.)

If a Group is beneficial to the task at hand you get a Positive Double Roll: roll 2 d20 and keep the better result (= 5e Advantage).
For Trained tasks (e.g., Pick Pockets) it helps if an applicable Group is written somewhere on the sheet. If "thieves guild" is written next to CHA because your character concept is con man rather than pickpocket you are still somewhat proficient in picking pockets and roll a single d20 under DEX. All other characters trying a Trained task get Negative Double Rolls (= 5e Disadvantage).

Spells ("miracles" in Whitehack parlance) are freestyle. Players write a few "descriptive or evocative words like Telekinesis, Banish undead, Pyrotechnics, Frog familiarus, Fist of the God, Song of Truth, or Patrok, Demon of Passage" which are used "through a per situation agreement between Referee and player, based on the wording and the character's vocation".
Spells are paid for with hit points, Microlite 20 style.
(But there is a variant in the GM chapter using the familiar OGL spells, with or without hp cost of casting.)

Auctions are a way to spice up conflicts. Players can roll a d6, keep the number a secret, and "bid" against the GM (or a fellow player) a number that works like AC in combat. Highest bidder can roll first, reveals his d6 roll, adds the roll to the relevant Attribute (or Save Number, or Attack Value), and makes a "blackjack" task roll (under Attribute + the d6 result, but over the bid number).
Obviously, if you bid more than what you rolled on the d6 your chance is lower than with a regular, unmodified task roll.

Players rules are from 19 pages (including character sheet), Referee rules are 21 pages (including monsters and magic items), and the last 13 pages are a brief setting and adventure. 7 pages of "dice tables" (lots and lots of numbers to randomly pick at with your pencil), faq ("troubleshooting"), glossary, index, and OGL conclude the book.

A typical character looks like that:

Saffron, Level 1 Wise Black Hats Alchemist
Str 6, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 9, Wis 13 (Alchemist, Black Hats), Cha 13
Save 6, hp 6, AC 1, Move 30, Attack Value 10
Common; Miracles: Weird Bombs, Crow Familiarus, Mysterious Elixir!
Quarterstaff, Cloth Armor, Black Hat, Tame Crow, Book of Recipes, 1 gp

When 5e was in playtest (as D&D Next) I thought that Whitehack would already be a Microlite Next (Double Rolls = Advantage, Groups = Backgrounds) but that didn't prove to be true.


The biggest differences from First Edition:

To-hit and Armor Class worked either like in d20 (BAB) or in BECMI (attack matrix), so Whitehack was compatible with the vast library of either system. Not any more, now you need to adjust the stat blocks. (That's nothing serious, it's as much work as adapting descending to ascending AC, or vice versa, but it is a loss of one sales argument.)

Auctions work differently. The d6 roll is new, serving as an enticement to enter auctions.

The setting is a little bit more detailed, the adventures have ... "maps". Not proper dungeon maps, but flowcharts and relationship maps. That's what I found jarring because they are hard to read.

Actual play experience:

I only played First Edition so far, and Auctions didn't come up at all. But that's because all games were one-shots. People were busy wrapping their head around Groups and Slots, and Auctions didn't make that much sense as they lowered the chance of success. Christian must have encountered the same since he changed it in Second Edition.

Depending on where the players came from Groups felt like FATE Aspects (story-gamey, with players trying to justify all kinds of things), or like Barbarians of Lemuria Careers (meta skills). I vastly prefer the latter.

Freestyle spells can be fun with players who are comfortable with them. If players are used to very strict pre-determined effects it can be like pulling teeth because they don't come up with creative uses.

I am undecided whether I like First or Second Edition more. I prefer the format of First (small stapled pamphlet) but the unified task roll mechanim is a clear win.
I like the booklet format better because Whitehack is an ideal convention game - characters can be made very quickly, and they are still very varied thanks to Groups. I don't like to carry a hardcover around at conventions.
But I have a copy of First Edition, so all is well.

Quote from: RPGPundit;838463I have to say, even though I feel like your post actually explained very little to me while using very big words, the language and implications of that language strongly suggest to me that this is not a game I would particularly care for.

Too bad—sorry to disappoint!

Quote from: Dirk Remmecke;838488Try this explanation ...

About auctions: You can't calculate your chances in an auction that easily. You may well increase your chances compared to a regular roll by tricking your opponent to make the higher bid and roll first, as you win automatically if he fails. But why would you compare your chances in an auction to an unmodified regular roll? Usually, the alternative to an auction is an opposed roll of some kind, or a modified roll. When I run Whitehack, sometimes I suggest to the players to run something as an auction. At other times, I don't give them any choice.

I think you did a great job explaining my game! Thank you!

Quote from: Whitehack;838511Too bad—sorry to disappoint!

Pundit will generally review any game that's sent to him in physical format. I say you do it; Whitehack is a fucking gem of a game!

Also, I understand that the lack of a PDF is a conscious decision.

Intentionally making the game be as hard and as expensive to get as possible goes against the spirit of the OSR, in my mind.

Quote from: ZWEIHÄNDER;838847Pundit will generally review any game that's sent to him in physical format. I say you do it; Whitehack is a fucking gem of a game!

It's true, I review every game sent me.  If you think I might change my mind, it might be worth your while.  Of course, even if I hate it, one of my reviews can generate a lot of attention.