This is not intended as a diatribe against point-buy, but more aimed at those who don't have point-buy systems at the top of their preferences.

To those who aren't wholly sold, when is point-buy ok to you?

Stats? Attributes? Special abilities? Advantages/Disadvantages? What?

I'll happily play in a point-buy system, but there's something to me about rolling stats. Whether it's 3d6 across the board or 4d6, drop lowest, and assign where you want, I like that bit of randomness just now.

If a system has advantages/disadvantages, I really don't like it when a guy picks out and games all these flaws to build up crazy advantages. In Rolemaster for Talents, I used to have a 1:1 sort of balance system. No massive point-buy 12 disadvantages, 10 advantages sort of business. You might have one really notable talent, but you might have this really notable flaw as well. Like I said, I'll use point-buy, but I'll usually limit it.

Then again, I love random charts. I've created plenty of tables for background (as well as use the ones in the Epic RPG), and the Hackmaster GMG is usually nearby, regardless of fantasy system. I guess I'm more roll 'em, don't buy 'em.

I'm fine with point-buy at all stages of character creation.

I like point buy systems. What I don't like is disadvantages for extra points.

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;467009I'm fine with point-buy at all stages of character creation.

Quote from: danbuter;467011I like point buy systems. What I don't like is disadvantages for extra points.

Ditto to both.

The real trick is balancing the points properly so you can get a character that is similar to one that is rolled.  The major difference is that you can choose to play a Fighter with above average to excellent Strength instead of hoping to play one if the dice come out right.  As Danbuter said, most of the systems out there have disadvantages that are easily overlooked or too much of a hassle to implement that give free points, and everyone's character is overpowered.

Easiest solution?  Tell the players they can take disads if they want, but they aren't going to be worth any points.

I like point buy but I believe there should always be a random option or element.  Also, it's usually better to have points for specific parts of the character rather than a single pool.  As for disadvantages I don't mind extra points for them but be abundantly clear, if you roll to resist you will get fewer experience points at the end of the session and they will cost you more than you got in the long run if you don't play them.

I'm ok with dice rolling within bounds. D&D dice rolling is an emersion killer for me.

There are lots and lots and lots of real people with nothing special about them that are fast, strong, smart, funny and capable of making good decisions. D&D and a lot of other games act as if you can't be fit and smart at the same time, and its fucking stupid.

For the 3-18 stat line, I'd be ok with 8+1d10 or something, but knowing head of time that your character is going to be either an puss, retarded, or ugly because your get six rolls on an even spread sucks.

If the things that can be point-bought are somehow limited (such as stats only) or if there's different pools. Throwing every aspect of a character into one point buy pool makes my brain hurt.

I'm okay with point build as long as it's pretty simple like D6 or Savage World. If it's it's going to take over an hour to do and involve a lot of calculations and referring back to the rulebook, frankly it starts feeling a less like a game and more like filling in my tax returns.    

That said random character generation has a special appeal to me as it really kick starts my creativity in ways that staring at a blank piece of paper and pool of unspent point doesn't. I love that feeling when you've just rolled a character with older versions of Gamma World, Marvel Super Heroes or Icons and you look at the jumbled mess of powers and abilities and then slowly you start to make sense of it and find a character concept that makes it all work.

The latter works best however with a flexible GM who will allow a bit of tweaking post-rolls. So really what works best for me is semi random in whic you get the inspiration for the character from the dice and then you do some manual fine-tuning.

Quote from: Zachary The First;467005If a system has advantages/disadvantages, I really don't like it when a guy picks out and games all these flaws to build up crazy advantages.

A good way to deal with that is to make the flaws so hideously goddam awful that only a serious masochist would even consider taking them. Syphillitic breath flaw, social outcast (-1).

Quote from: One Horse Town;466982when is point-buy ok to you?

When there are not too many options, and when we can just choose from a laundry list rather than having to be creative and do a lot of maths.

If I want to be creative in character generation, I'll take the random rolls and make something of them. I save point-buy for when I want to optimise a character for certain challenges. That is after all the reason for point-buy; if players never tried to optimise, there would be no reason for any trait to have a point cost.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;467040That is after all the reason for point-buy; if players never tried to optimise, there would be no reason for any trait to have a point cost.

I think the real reason for point buy is to level the playing field. There is a gamist assumption that in a game all players should even. you all start with the same ammount of money in monopoly you all have the same number of checkers in checkers etc .
So point buy ensures that everyone starts even.
You could argue the same of random systems because after all before the dice are rolled all things are even however back in the nascent days of D&D it was recognised that there are hopeless characters, no stat above 11,  2 or more stats under 5 etc in D&D it doesn;t make a lot of difference as the level system acts as a uniform point buy mechanism for experience and stat values from 8 - 14 are basically a wash.
In systems that are totally random and where skill points you 'spend' derive from randomly rolled stats you get into a real double lock. Bad stats lead to bad skills and the number of skills you have to spend comes from your stats so a set of lucky rolls leads to a PC with high stats and lots of good skills whilst bad rolls leads to low stats and a low numbers of poor skills.

My issue with point buy systems is simply the math requirement in character gen.

Not that I have a problem with actually doing the maths - I spend all day doing maths at work, then go home and study more maths - it's just that, for one night a week, I'd quite like to not do some maths. Point-buy character gen looks awfully like my day job, and is typically more of a pain in the ass.

Give me a list of equivalent options to pick from (Making them equivalent is the job of the game designer, natch), and I'm much happier.

I suppose it's at it's best when you have a limted time and players can build characters on their own without a GM present.

That's why I prefer point buy. I'd rather the statistical side of the characters was sorted well before the game begins so any character creation discussion can be about the group relationships and attitudes.

My favorite character generation systems combine randomness and choice. For example, in D&D I use random rolls, but allow players to arrange them to taste. BRP's "roll attributes, buy skills" is another system that works great for me.

To paraphrase the Dos Equis ad, I don't always use point-buy, but when I do...

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;467040When there are not too many options, and when we can just choose from a laundry list rather than having to be creative and do a lot of maths.

...I vastly prefer this.

Which is to say, I tend to favor the more straightforward, no-frills point-buy systems like White Wolf's Storyteller, and Savage Worlds. The latter in particular is very laundry list-y, I can piece a character together in 5-10 minutes, which is a major boon in my book (maybe 15-20 minutes for supers, which use a distinct, more complex point-buy Powers sub-system).

Another brilliantly simple point-buy system is Simon (Barbarians of Lemuria) Washbourne's SUPERS! You have 20-30 dice to distribute between attributes ("Resistances", more like saving throws actually), skills and powers. 1D in a skill is the same as 1D in a power or a Resistance. Advantages and disadvantages each cost 1D apiece, or should just balance each other out. I've put together heroes and villains in literally less than a minute! And the system works, too, though it is a very barebones affair, very much open to interpretation from both GMs and players, but absolutely functional.

Quote from: jibbajibba;467053I think the real reason for point buy is to level the playing field. There is a gamist assumption that in a game all players should even. you all start with the same ammount of money in monopoly you all have the same number of checkers in checkers etc .

You are right, of course, but this leads us back to the big issue with game balance, that is to say, comparing different things. Even if traits have distinct costs, any two given abilities may have the same costs, and one may be far more useful than another, depending on the circumstances, which include both the GM's and the player's imagination.

This is not to say that game balance shouldn't be a design goal, but just to illustrate the complexity of things.